Page 1764
1 Wednesday, 5
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.31 a.m.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Would the registrar please call
7 the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Case
9 IT-96-23-T, IT-96-23/1-T, the Prosecutor versus
10 Dragoljub Kunarac, Radomir Kovac, and Zoran Vukovic.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning, witness. We are
12 continuing our sittings this morning.
13 WITNESS: WITNESS 87 [Resumed]
14 [Witness answered through interpreter]
15 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:
16 [Interpretation] [Cont'd]
17 Q. Good morning.
18 A. Good morning.
19 Q. Yesterday we left off discussing the night
20 when you were allegedly in the house at Aladza with the
21 presence of Goran and Zaga. Before that evening, did
22 you see Goran at all?
23 A. I don't remember.
24 Q. Do you know his surname?
25 A. No.
Page 1765
1 Q. Do you still stand by the description you
2 gave on the transcript, page 23, tenth line, that he
3 was tall and blond?
4 A. You mean Goran?
5 Q. Yes.
6 A. Yes, I do, as far as I remember.
7 Q. Let us go back to the statement you made?
8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] And I should
9 like to ask the usher to place the statements in front
10 of the witness, please.
11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Microphone, Counsel.
13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] D32 and D33.
14 Those are the exhibits.
15 Q. Page 4 of the statement, given in 1998, in
16 May, and that is Exhibit D33. Would you take a look at
17 that, please. Could you read the last paragraph on
18 that page.
19 A. "I no longer remember..." Do you mean that
20 paragraph? "I no longer remember whether Zaga raped me
21 on that last time when I was taken to the house in
22 Aladza. I now clearly recall that a man named Goran
23 raped me on that occasion. There were more soldiers in
24 the house this time than usual. They were drinking in
25 the kitchen. Zaga was not present all the time. He
Page 1766
1 kept going in and out."
2 Q. Thank you. Is that your statement?
3 A. Yes, it is.
4 Q. Thank you. You said that on that particular
5 evening, and we agreed that it was around 8.00, that
6 DB, 75, and 50 were with you on that occasion, and you
7 said that you were in the room on the left-hand side of
8 that house. Do you know where number 75 was and with
9 whom?
10 A. No, I don't know.
11 Q. Do you know who DB was with?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Did you talk to DB and number 75 about that
14 particular night, what had happened to them and whether
15 anything happened to them?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Did you tell them what happened to you?
18 A. No.
19 Q. You said that afterwards you were in the
20 right-hand room.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Who were you with there?
23 A. With Kunarac. Once with Kunarac and once
24 with an older man whose name I don't know.
25 Q. And who were you with in the workshop?
Page 1767
1 A. I think it was Toljic. Toljic.
2 Q. When did you leave the house at Aladza?
3 A. I think it was the next morning.
4 Q. When you say "morning," what time do you
5 mean?
6 A. Well, I mean that it was before noon, at all
7 events.
8 Q. Who did you leave with?
9 A. I left with number 75 and DB and 190, and I
10 remember -- I don't remember who else was with us very
11 well, but I do remember Pero Elez. I remember he was
12 with us, but I don't remember the others.
13 Q. Do you remember who drove the car?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Do you remember what the car looked like?
16 A. No.
17 Q. I'm now going to go back to your statement,
18 D32, page 11, the second paragraph from the top, and it
19 begins with "That happened ..."
20 A. This was about the 20th of August, 1992.
21 That night there was an electricity cut. There were
22 detonations and the windows broke in the house.
23 Everybody went for shelter under the tables. This was
24 in the night, after 9.00 and before midnight. It was
25 too dark for me to see anything. I heard that all the
Page 1768
1 mosques in Foca had been destroyed on that occasion."
2 Q. Are you sure that that was the 20th of
3 August?
4 A. No, I'm not.
5 Q. When did you hear that the mosques had been
6 destroyed?
7 A. How do you mean when did I hear?
8 Q. When did you hear -- you said, "I heard that
9 all the mosques -- I have heard that every mosque in
10 Foca was destroyed."
11 A. I don't remember now whether it was that
12 night or some other time.
13 Q. If I say that it was the 2nd of August, would
14 you agree? Because that was when the Aladza mosque was
15 destroyed.
16 A. I couldn't really say. I don't remember any
17 more.
18 Q. You said that you were raped by several
19 soldiers.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Were you injured in any way?
22 A. What injuries do you mean? What kind?
23 Q. Physical.
24 A. No.
25 Q. Were you in pain?
Page 1769
1 A. I don't remember.
2 Q. You've said that you were raped in the house
3 at the bus-stop yesterday.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Can you describe where that house was?
6 A. I really couldn't say. I was taken to that
7 house only once, and I can't remember any more where it
8 was.
9 Q. How did you get to the house? How did you
10 get to the house?
11 A. Unfortunately, I can't remember that either.
12 Q. And who took you there?
13 A. I think it was Kunarac.
14 Q. Who was with you?
15 A. Apart from Kunarac, I don't remember the
16 other people, but I think there were two more men,
17 although I'm not quite sure, and of the girls there was
18 DB, number 50.
19 Q. If you went by car, what kind of car did you
20 go there in; and if you went on foot, tell us that.
21 A. I don't remember the car we were taken in.
22 Q. The two men who were with Kunarac, what did
23 they look like? Could you describe them?
24 A. No. I can't remember.
25 Q. What about their age? How old were they?
Page 1770
1 A. I can't be certain of that either.
2 Q. How were they dressed?
3 A. I don't remember that either.
4 Q. Did you do anything in that house?
5 A. I don't remember.
6 Q. On that occasion, DB and number 50, were they
7 with you all the time?
8 A. How do you mean with me?
9 Q. In that house, were all three of you there
10 all the time together?
11 A. Yes, I think we were.
12 Q. How long did you spend in that house?
13 A. Well, I couldn't say. I think we came back
14 that same night, but I'm not quite sure.
15 Q. Was Kunarac in the house with you all the
16 time and with those two soldiers?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. What happened to you that night?
19 A. What do you mean? How do you mean?
20 Q. In the house. You were there with the three
21 of them. Did anything happen to you?
22 A. Yes. I know that I was raped by Kunarac. I
23 also know that number 50 was raped by Kunarac as well.
24 I don't know about DB.
25 Q. As you stated that you came to Partizan
Page 1771
1 sometime around the 16th or 17th, and you said that you
2 left Partizan from Aladza on the 3rd of August in the
3 morning, when was that in respect to that period? Were
4 you in the house during that period at that time or
5 later on?
6 A. You mean the house at the bus-stop. I was
7 there before I was in the house at Aladza.
8 Q. I now have to remark that in the statements
9 you gave in 1996 and 1998, which are Exhibits D32 and
10 D33, you never recount that particular event.
11 A. Which event do you mean?
12 Q. The event in the house by the bus-stop.
13 A. I think that I did mention that in the
14 statement I gave in 1999 -- 1998. I beg your pardon.
15 Yes. The last paragraph on page 6.
16 Q. I've found page 6.
17 A. Yes. It's the last paragraph on the page.
18 Q. Could you read it out to me, please?
19 A. "Kunarac and his soldiers took me to another
20 house, not just the one in Aladza. This was an older
21 house, or maybe it was just built in the old style,
22 near the bus station and it was a bit remote. Kunarac
23 himself took me there. I cannot say if this house
24 belonged to a Muslim or not. I was taken to this house
25 only once."
Page 1772
1 Q. You described the house here.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You said that it was an old-style house.
4 A. Yes. I think that's the impression I got.
5 Q. But you didn't say who you were there with.
6 A. No.
7 Q. So you said that you stayed in that house
8 until what time?
9 A. Well, I don't know exactly what time. I
10 think we were returned the same night.
11 Q. When you gave this statement in 1998, did you
12 know that Kunarac was already at the detention unit,
13 the UN detention unit?
14 A. I don't remember that.
15 Q. Did anybody tell you that?
16 A. Tell me what?
17 Q. That he was in detention, or did you learn
18 that through the media?
19 A. I learnt this through the media.
20 Q. When did you learn about this?
21 A. Well, I don't remember that.
22 Q. Could that have been March 1998?
23 A. I really don't know.
24 Q. Did you see it on television?
25 A. I don't remember. I think it was on
Page 1773
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Page 1774
1 television, yes.
2 Q. When you went to Karaman's House, who took
3 you there?
4 A. I remember Pero Elez, although he wasn't
5 alone, but I don't remember the other people with him.
6 Q. I would like to point out once again that
7 yesterday in the transcript, page 131, line 22, you
8 said, "I don't remember many things any more."
9 A. Yes. That's right.
10 Q. Is that your testimony?
11 A. Well, I don't know exactly where that was, to
12 begin with, but it's true that I don't remember many
13 things because eight years have gone by since then.
14 Q. Who was with you when you went off to
15 Karaman's House? Of the women, I mean.
16 A. Number 75 was with me, DB, and 190.
17 Q. You said that you were taken by Pero Elez.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Who was with him of the men?
20 A. I think there were two other men, but I don't
21 remember that very well, who they were, their names.
22 Q. According to your 1996 statement, and it is
23 D32, you did not state that Kunarac was with you in
24 Karaman's House.
25 A. Well, perhaps not.
Page 1775
1 Q. In the statement of 1998, you further stated
2 that he raped you in that house.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Could you tell me when that occurred?
5 A. What do you mean?
6 Q. After you arrived at Karaman's House.
7 A. I couldn't say. I don't remember exactly.
8 Q. Who was in the house when he came?
9 A. I know that we were there, us girls. Which
10 one of the soldiers was there, I don't remember.
11 Q. Was your sister there?
12 A. Yes, she was.
13 Q. You said that Kunarac took you into a room.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Into which room?
16 A. The room on the storey above.
17 Q. And how many rooms were on that floor?
18 A. I think there were two smaller ones and one
19 larger one which wasn't cleaned up.
20 Q. Did you talk to your sister about that
21 event?
22 A. No.
23 Q. How long did you stay in that room with
24 Kunarac?
25 A. Well, I can't remember.
Page 1776
1 Q. How was Kunarac dressed?
2 A. I don't remember.
3 Q. You said that you were raped on that
4 occasion.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. In your statement, you say that the arm was
7 in a plaster cast.
8 A. I don't think I said his arm was in a plaster
9 cast, I just said that I remember that part of his
10 body, something was in a cast. I remember that.
11 Q. Did he take his clothes off on the occasion?
12 A. Well, I don't remember, but he must have.
13 Q. I'm now going to remind you that in your
14 statement of 1996 you said, on page 9, the following.
15 It is the last paragraph, the one-but-last paragraph,
16 and you're describing events, and then you state: "In
17 that house..." It is the last paragraph.
18 A. "In that house I never saw members of Cosa's
19 Guards. Kunarac never took me to any other house
20 except this one. The first two times he did not rape
21 me. He only raped me the third time.
22 Q. Could you explain the difference in your
23 statements? In 1996 you said that you were only taken
24 to the house in Aladza, not another house, and then
25 later on you explained that you were taken to this
Page 1777
1 house by the bus stop.
2 A. Well, I think the simple reason is that I
3 couldn't remember everything the first time. I think
4 that's the only reason.
5 Q. I should like to refer you to your 1998
6 statement once again, and page 4 of that statement. It
7 is the first paragraph.
8 A. "I no longer remember whether Zaga raped me
9 that last time when I was taken to the house in
10 Aladza. Now I clearly remember that a man raped me by
11 the name of Goran.
12 Q. Thank you. How can you explain these
13 differences in your statement?
14 A. What do you mean?
15 Q. Well, you said that in 1996 you remembered
16 things better but that you did not remember this other
17 house except the house in Aladza.
18 A. Yes, that's correct, but I probably recalled
19 that later on.
20 Q. You said that in Karaman's House you were
21 there with your sister.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. After Kunarac left the room, did you talk to
24 your sister at all?
25 A. No.
Page 1778
1 Q. Did Kunarac talk to your sister on that
2 occasion?
3 A. I don't remember.
4 Q. Let me remind you. Was he out on the terrace
5 with her, talking to her?
6 A. I don't remember.
7 Q. Was that during the night or during the day?
8 A. Well, I don't remember, but I don't think it
9 was night-time, although I can't be certain.
10 Q. How was Kunarac dressed on the occasion?
11 A. I don't remember.
12 Q. Did he have any characteristic features on
13 him?
14 A. Well, the only characteristic thing was that
15 he had a plastic cast or a bandage on a part of his
16 body; that's all.
17 Q. During your stay in the Aladza house, were DB
18 and number 75 there all the time?
19 A. You mean in the house?
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. Well, I don't know.
22 Q. Were DB and number 75 able to see Kunarac on
23 that night?
24 A. I don't know.
25 Q. You said that you came there together with
Page 1779
1 them.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Was Kunarac in the house the whole time while
4 you were there?
5 A. I don't remember.
6 Q. After that night, did you go to Miljevina?
7 A. I think it was the next morning.
8 Q. Will you agree with me, in view of the fact
9 that you came to the house -- that you came to Partizan
10 at about the 16th, 17th, that you went to Miljevina on
11 the 3rd, and that you spent 15 days in Partizan?
12 A. Well, according to the dates that you have
13 just stated, yes, but I don't remember the exact dates
14 very well, and I can't assess time very well. I don't
15 know how much time actually passed.
16 Q. Does the name -- nickname Konta mean anything
17 to you? The surname is Kontic, the nickname is Konta.
18 A. No.
19 Q. Did you talk to any of your colleagues about
20 that individual?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Does the surname Radovic mean anything to
23 you?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Does the surname Dragan Stankovic, Dragec,
Page 1780
1 mean anything to you?
2 A. Well, the name and surname, no, it doesn't,
3 but the nickname does, yes.
4 Q. Did he ever take you out of the house?
5 A. I don't remember that. I think that he used
6 to come to Klanfa's apartment, but I don't remember if
7 he actually took me out or not.
8 Q. I just have one more event to go through with
9 you at Partizan. You said that while you were at
10 Partizan that there was a woman journalist who came
11 there.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did you talk to her?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Did your sister talk to her?
16 A. I don't know that.
17 Q. May I refer you to page 10 of your statement
18 of 1996. It is the fifth paragraph, which begins "I
19 remember ..."
20 A. Yes, I found it. "I remember that Dragan
21 Kunarac one day brought a woman journalist to
22 Partizan. She wanted to talk to the girls about
23 whether or not we were being abused. We all knew that
24 she was not a real reporter but was one of them. I
25 said that we were not being abused. Kunarac was
Page 1781
1 standing right beside her. How could I say anything?"
2 Q. Thank you. I'd now like you to go back to
3 page 4 of the 1998 statement of the 4th and 5th of
4 May.
5 A. Yes, I found it.
6 Q. And it begins with -- the paragraph is
7 paragraph 6, and it begins --
8 A. "A female journalist came to Partizan, which I
9 described on page 11 of my earlier statement. I do not
10 remember when this was. I don't know if it was close
11 in time to when I was taken to Miljevina. I did not
12 talk to the journalist. I know that my sister spoke to
13 the journalist. I'm not sure if number 75 spoke with
14 the journalist. Kunarac was not present when the
15 journalist was questioning the women. I remember my
16 sister telling the journalist that Kunarac used to come
17 and take us out to various flats."
18 Q. Thank you. Now you yourself have seen that
19 those two statements are quite different.
20 A. Well, not quite different, but there are
21 things which do not correspond to both. Today I cannot
22 remember. I do remember the journalist, the woman
23 journalist; I remember her coming. I know that
24 somebody talked to her, although I don't remember
25 talking to her myself. And I don't remember whether
Page 1782
1 Kunarac was actually there or not, and I'm not sure
2 whether my sister talked to her or not, to the
3 journalist. Yes, that's it.
4 Q. You say that Kunarac was present --
5 A. Today, I cannot remember if he was present or
6 not.
7 Q. Do you remember that he used to come to the
8 school at Partizan and that he called out several girls
9 and told them to go with him?
10 A. I remember that Kunarac would come to
11 Partizan and take out girls with him, but today I just
12 cannot remember a concrete occasion and the details,
13 whether he called the girls out by name and then took
14 them out or not.
15 Q. Do you happen to remember whether Kunarac
16 told you that you were going to talk to a journalist?
17 A. I don't remember that.
18 Q. Did you talk about this event with your
19 sister and with number 75?
20 A. No.
21 Q. And I just want to ask you several questions
22 in connection with the house by the bus stop. In
23 relation to Partizan, where was the bus stop located?
24 A. Well, I don't think I could explain that. It
25 wasn't very far away; that's what I can say.
Page 1783
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Page 1784
1 Q. How did you get to that house?
2 A. I don't remember.
3 Q. Did you go by car, perhaps?
4 A. Perhaps, although I'm not sure.
5 Q. You said that Kunarac raped you in that
6 house.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Could you explain where this happened, in
9 which room?
10 A. I think it was a room on the first floor,
11 because I remember that I was raped on the upper floor
12 and that I was with Kunarac on the first floor.
13 Q. In order to identify this more closely, do
14 you think you could make a sketch of that house?
15 A. Well, I don't know. I'm not sure. Perhaps I
16 could just tell you where the rooms were on the first
17 floor. I can't remember the second floor that well.
18 Q. Could you make a sketch of the rooms in the
19 house?
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Can the usher please help.
21 A. [The witness complies]
22 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This document
23 will be marked D35, Defence Exhibit D35.
24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could this be
25 tendered into evidence as a Defence Exhibit, please?
Page 1785
1 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Yes, it is,
2 but I was wondering if you need it for your
3 cross-examination.
4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Not for the
5 moment. Thank you. As far as I understand, the
6 witness said that this was the room upstairs in this
7 house.
8 A. The room in which Kunarac raped me. Yes,
9 that was a room on the first floor.
10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. I see here there are three rooms. Could you
12 tell us which of these three rooms?
13 A. On the first floor there was a kitchen room
14 and bathroom. On the second floor I think there were
15 two rooms but I'm not sure. And this happened in the
16 room on the first floor.
17 Q. What did the room look like?
18 A. I can't remember that.
19 Q. Were there any things inside?
20 A. Yes. It wasn't empty.
21 Q. Did you talk to other soldiers who were in
22 that house with you at the time?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Did they have conversations among
25 themselves?
Page 1786
1 A. I don't remember.
2 Q. Do you remember any one of them by his
3 nickname or anything particular?
4 A. No.
5 Q. How were they dressed?
6 A. I don't know.
7 Q. Could you please make a sketch of the house
8 in Miljevina as well?
9 A. You mean the layout of the rooms?
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. [The witness complies]
12 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This second
13 drawing will be marked D36, Defence Exhibit D36.
14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. You said that there were three rooms on the
16 top floor.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. In which room were you with Kunarac out of
19 these three?
20 A. The one straight ahead when you go up the
21 stairs.
22 Q. As far as I can see, this is the room that is
23 separated from the other two.
24 A. When you go up the stairs, there are two
25 rooms on this side and one this side. So it was this
Page 1787
1 room.
2 Q. That was what I was saying. As for the house
3 near the bus-stop, was 75 in that house with you?
4 A. No.
5 Q. But you told me that 75 and DB were with
6 you.
7 A. No. Fifty and DB.
8 Q. Did you discuss with them who the owner of
9 the house was?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Did anyone perhaps tell you that it was
12 Dr. Reuf Tafro's house?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Did you go to that house previously, before
15 the event that you have described?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Did Tuta take you to that house perhaps?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Did Radulovic take you to that house,
20 perhaps?
21 A. I don't remember Radulovic.
22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no
23 more questions, Your Honour. Thank you.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: The next counsel, if any.
25 Yes, Mr. Kolesar.
Page 1788
1 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Yes, Your
2 Honour. I have a couple of questions for this
3 witness.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Please go ahead.
5 Cross-examined by Mr. Kolesar:
6 Q. Witness, good morning.
7 A. Good morning.
8 Q. Could you tell me, before we start our
9 conversation, and I will have questions only about
10 events linked to the apartment in Lepa Brena used by
11 Kovac, could you tell me, please, during those critical
12 days in 1992, apart from the fact that you were much
13 younger, could you tell me, so that I can have some
14 idea as to your appearance, how tall you were in those
15 days? I don't know if you can understand my question.
16 A. No.
17 Q. Do you remember, October 1992, how tall you
18 were? Could you describe yourself?
19 A. I don't remember exactly how tall I was.
20 Q. Do you remember how much you weighed?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Do you remember what kind of hairstyle you
23 wore, the colour of your hair, the length of your
24 hair?
25 A. My hair was straight. It was roughly
Page 1789
1 shoulder length.
2 Q. And the colour of your hair?
3 A. Dark brown.
4 Q. Did you wear glasses then too?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Thank you. In your statement to the
7 investigators of the Tribunal, the first statement from
8 January 1996, on page 13 -- could you please find page
9 13? You said that in mid-October, the four of you, and
10 you listed the four, were taken from Karaman's House by
11 Gojko, Tuta, and Zeljo to Foca, to an apartment where
12 you spent the night, and in the morning, two soldiers
13 came, Kovac and Kostic, who took you to another
14 apartment on the fourth floor.
15 If you have found that paragraph, would you
16 confirm that that is correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. During the examination-in-chief by the
19 Prosecution, you said that this happened at the end of
20 September or the beginning of October of the same
21 year.
22 A. Yes, though I'm not sure about dates.
23 Q. Do I understand you correctly that you're not
24 sure whether what you said in the statement is correct
25 or what you said in your testimony yesterday?
Page 1790
1 A. No. I mean, I'm not sure about the date.
2 Q. But could you please make a choice between
3 the two dates?
4 A. No, I cannot.
5 Q. You said you were taken to an apartment on
6 the 4th floor. Do you stand by that statement?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Could it have been a higher floor, perhaps?
9 A. I think it was the 4th floor.
10 Q. That day when Kovac and Kostic came for you,
11 to take you, as you said, could you describe how they
12 were dressed?
13 A. I cannot be sure about that. I think they
14 wore camouflage uniforms.
15 Q. You said that you spent roughly four months
16 in that apartment.
17 A. Yes. I said "roughly." I'm not sure about
18 that.
19 Q. During that time, during your stay in that
20 apartment, did Kostic and Kovac -- and I'm particularly
21 interested in Kovac -- were they in uniform all the
22 time or did they sometimes wear civilian clothes? And
23 I'm interested in Kovac.
24 A. I'm afraid I can't remember that too well,
25 though I know that when they took us out, they would
Page 1791
1 sometimes wear civilian clothes.
2 Q. Thank you. Now, please tell me, if you can,
3 where were you handed over to Kovac and Kostic, as you
4 told us? In what room and at what spot?
5 A. What do you mean, "handed over"?
6 Q. In your statement you said that the next day,
7 in the morning, two soldiers came, Kostic and Kovac,
8 and that you were handed over to them. I would like
9 you to tell me where this occurred.
10 A. Kovac and Kostic came in the apartment in
11 Ribarsko, and then we went with them, or rather they
12 took us to an apartment.
13 Q. If I understand you correctly, this is the
14 apartment where you had spent the night, the previous
15 night.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Before they took you from Karaman's House,
18 did they tell you why they were taking you from
19 Karaman's House to Foca, any one of the three who took
20 you to Foca?
21 A. No.
22 Q. When Kovac and Kostic took you over, did they
23 tell you why they were taking you with them?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Let me remind you that perhaps Kovac told you
Page 1792
1 that he was taking you to their apartment because it
2 would be better there, that they would protect you
3 there, they would not allow any men to come, and that
4 they would look after you.
5 A. I don't remember.
6 Q. And that you would be staying there until
7 conditions were such as to enable you to leave Foca.
8 A. I don't remember that.
9 Q. From the apartment where you spent the night,
10 to the apartment where you were taken -- and that is
11 the apartment, as you say, on the 4th floor -- how did
12 you cover that distance?
13 A. Which apartment are you referring to? I'm
14 referring to the apartment in Lepa Brena used by
15 Kovac.
16 Q. I'm asking you about the other apartment that
17 you mentioned. You said that you spent the night in an
18 apartment in Ribarsko, and that the next day Kovac and
19 Kostic came and took you to an apartment being used by
20 Kovac. So I'm asking you: How did you cover the
21 distance from the first apartment to the apartment
22 where the two of them lived? Was it on foot?
23 A. I think it was on foot.
24 Q. As you were going along the way, were you
25 mistreated, sworn at, physically abused by the two of
Page 1793
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Page 1794
1 them, or did you walk normally?
2 A. On that occasion there was no abuse of any
3 kind.
4 Q. En route from the first apartment to the
5 apartment being used by Kovac and Kostic, did you visit
6 any of the stores along the way, or did one of the two
7 of them go in?
8 A. I cannot remember.
9 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Could the usher
10 give the witness photographs 407 and 401, Prosecutor's
11 Exhibit number 11, if I remember correctly.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Confirmation from the
13 Prosecution? Is that the exhibit? The numbers of
14 photographs, is that Exhibit number 11?
15 MS. KUO: Since we haven't seen them, we
16 don't know if they actually correspond.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Please, usher, could you
18 show counsel?
19 MS. KUO: Yes, we can confirm that, Your
20 Honour.
21 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I apologise.
22 Those are not the photographs I wanted. I mentioned
23 the numbers 407 and 401. Yes, yes, that's it.
24 Q. Can you agree with me that that is the
25 photograph shown to you by the Prosecution yesterday,
Page 1795
1 and that on that occasion you confirmed that that was
2 the Lepa Brena building but that you were not sure
3 whether the photograph in which you stayed is shown on
4 the photograph?
5 A. Yes. I said that that was the Lepa Brena
6 building, but I wasn't sure whether that was the exact
7 entrance to the part of the building in which Kovac's
8 flat was.
9 Q. So I understood you correctly. Look at the
10 ground floor, please. There is a wooden door there,
11 and to the right, if you can manage to read the
12 letters, it says: a supermarket.
13 A. I'm afraid I'm unable to see that on the
14 photograph.
15 Q. Regardless of that, in view of the fact that
16 there is a store there, could you tell us where the
17 entrance leading to the apartment used by Kovac was,
18 and in which you stayed, would be in relation to this
19 photograph?
20 A. I cannot be sure. I think it could be to the
21 left, that you would go to the left to find the
22 entrance leading to Klanfa's apartment.
23 Q. So if this is the building, the entrance to
24 Klanfa's apartment would be here to the left?
25 A. Yes, only I must repeat: I'm not sure.
Page 1796
1 Q. Thank you. Do you remember that at the
2 entrance leading to the apartment that there was a
3 lift, an elevator?
4 A. I don't remember that
5 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I should like
6 to thank the usher. We are done with this photograph
7 for the moment. We don't need it anymore.
8 Q. Could you please tell me what kind of an
9 apartment it was? Was it a one-room, two-room,
10 three-room apartment?
11 A. It had a kitchen and two rooms. A kitchen,
12 two rooms, a bathroom, and a hallway. The rooms were
13 not big.
14 Q. Could you please draw a sketch of that
15 apartment for me?
16 A. [Witness complies]
17 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This document
18 will be marked Defence Exhibit D37.
19 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]
20 Q. I apologise, but on this sketch there is a
21 space here that I don't understand. Is that the
22 hallway which makes a letter L or L-shaped or ...
23 A. I don't understand what you mean. No. The
24 line in the middle is a mistake. It shouldn't be
25 there.
Page 1797
1 Q. All right. Thank you. Yes. This
2 corresponds to the layout I have of the flat.
3 From this sketch, I can see that there is a
4 terrace or balcony that leads out from the kitchen. Is
5 that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Could you tell me, please, the window from
8 this large room and the terrace, where do they look out
9 onto?
10 A. They look out onto the street.
11 Q. And the window from this other room?
12 A. I'm not quite sure about that.
13 Q. Could you describe, as you spent some four
14 and a half months in that apartment, tell me about the
15 furnishings, where the furniture was in the flat.
16 Describe that to me, please.
17 A. Well, as far as the kitchen is concerned, I
18 don't remember it very well. I don't remember the
19 kitchen very well, but I think there was what we would
20 say a two-seat sofa -- I can't be sure -- and that
21 there were some other things belonging to kitchens,
22 which you would find in a kitchen.
23 As far as the small room is concerned, I
24 remember that there were two small beds and that it
25 might have been a bunk-bed which had been separated
Page 1798
1 into two beds, but I remember that there was a big sort
2 of cupboard-cum-display cabinet, and that there was a
3 desk there, a writing table.
4 As far as the main room is concerned, there
5 was a corner sofa. I think there was a round glass
6 table in front of it. There was a bed. I don't think
7 it was a display cabinet. It was low, sort of coming
8 up to half the wall. A little sort of sideboard,
9 something like that.
10 Q. Can we say a commode, a chest?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. When you describe the table, you said a
13 small, low, glass-top table, did you not?
14 A. Yes, I think it was round and I think it had
15 glass. Whether it was actually small and low, how
16 small and how low, I don't really know.
17 Q. And the bathroom? That's all that remains,
18 the bathroom.
19 A. I remember that there was, of course, a
20 bathtub and a toilet seat. I think there was something
21 else there. I think a washing machine, but I'm not
22 quite sure. And I don't remember ...
23 Q. Thank you.
24 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I should like
25 to tender this into evidence as a Defence Exhibit.
Page 1799
1 Q. Tell me, please, In one of these rooms was
2 there a television set and a video?
3 A. I think there was in the big room.
4 Q. Both a television set and a video?
5 A. I think so, yes.
6 Q. Did you watch a television programme, of
7 course when there was any electricity?
8 A. Yes, I do remember that we watched television
9 sometimes.
10 Q. Did you watch television together with the
11 accused Kovac and Kostic?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You have described the layout of the
14 apartment very well. Can you tell me the following
15 now, please: When you arrived in the apartment, the
16 four of you came, the four of you girls and two of
17 them. Who slept where? Could you tell us that,
18 please?
19 A. I don't remember.
20 Q. When you arrived in the apartment, what did
21 you girls bring with you in the way of clothing?
22 A. I don't remember. I couldn't say whether we
23 brought anything with us or not.
24 Q. Was there any clothing in the apartment, any
25 clothes that you could wear, perhaps, in view of your
Page 1800
1 size and age, and if so, were you given these clothes
2 to wear? Were you told that you could wear the
3 clothes?
4 A. I think that there was some clothing, yes,
5 which we could use.
6 Q. And were you allowed to use the clothes?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You said, if I heard you properly, that there
9 was a washing machine in the bathroom. Was there?
10 A. Yes, although I'm not quite sure about that.
11 Q. Did you do any washing in any way, your
12 clothes, or were you able to use it?
13 A. Yes, but I would usually wash my things by
14 hand in the bathtub.
15 Q. Why, if it's easier in a washing machine?
16 A. Well, I can't answer that question. I don't
17 know.
18 Q. Was the bathroom available to you girls?
19 Could you use it in the way that bathrooms are used for
20 fully, as bathrooms are intended to be used?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. In the apartment, did you have all the
23 necessary amenities in the way of personal hygiene and
24 were you able to use these toiletries and things for
25 hygiene?
Page 1801
1 A. I don't remember.
2 Q. Well, was there any soap, washing powder, you
3 know, the basics, the basics to keep clean?
4 A. Well, I think there were some of these
5 things, but how much, I don't remember.
6 Q. Well, it was wartime. I'm sure that there
7 wasn't a profusion of these items, that's for certain,
8 if you will agree.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Were you allowed to prepare any food, any
11 meals in the kitchen, and did you have the necessary
12 foodstuffs to prepare meals?
13 A. Yes. When there was food, we were allowed to
14 prepare it.
15 Q. So when there was food and when you did the
16 cooking, did you cook only for yourselves or for the
17 two of them as well?
18 A. For all of us; them as well.
19 Q. When they were in the apartment, when they're
20 not out on an assignment or anywhere else, when you
21 were having your meals, did you all eat at the same
22 table and eat the same food that you said you prepared
23 both for them and for you?
24 A. I don't remember.
25 Q. Well, I have to take note of the fact, once
Page 1802
1 again, that you said you spent about four months in
2 that apartment. Can you then tell me how long the
3 other girls spent in that apartment?
4 A. Two of the girls, I can't be sure exactly
5 when, but a short while after we arrived in Klanfa's
6 apartment, they were taken away. So only myself and AS
7 remained in the apartment. Us two were there together
8 throughout that time in the apartment.
9 Q. During the absence of Kovac, what about the
10 entrance door to the apartment? Was the door locked
11 and did you have keys to be able to lock the door from
12 the inside?
13 A. No, they weren't locked, and we didn't have
14 the key.
15 Q. Let me ask you directly: Did any of the
16 girls go to the neighbours' to borrow some of the
17 necessary foodstuffs, or coffee, sugar, things like
18 that?
19 A. I don't remember.
20 Q. Do you remember that you would go to one of
21 the neighbours, one of the women, to make some coffee
22 when you didn't have any electricity, because she
23 happened to have a wood-fired stove?
24 A. No, I don't remember that.
25 Q. Do you remember that in the same entrance to
Page 1803
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Page 1804
1 the same building, just two floors below, there was a
2 close relative of Kovac's?
3 A. Yes, I think there was.
4 Q. Would she come and visit you, and would you
5 go and visit her in her apartment?
6 A. I don't think she came to visit us, but I
7 think that we went to visit her once, together with
8 Kovac and Kostic.
9 Q. Did she ever get you some foodstuffs from
10 time to time?
11 A. I don't remember.
12 Q. Let me try and remind you: with a basket and
13 a rope. Do you remember that?
14 A. Yes, I do.
15 Q. Well, tell me, please: How did that
16 function?
17 A. Well, I don't remember exactly how this came
18 about the first time and what we did or how we arrived
19 at that, but I think we saw her from the window, or
20 from the terrace, from the balcony. I don't remember
21 exactly, but I know that we were either hungry or
22 something like that, and she talked to us, and she
23 asked us whether we wanted her to help us. I don't
24 remember exactly how we came upon the idea of having a
25 rope, but I remember that she did give us food on that
Page 1805
1 occasion.
2 Q. Was it only once or was it several times?
3 A. I don't remember exactly, but quite possibly
4 it was several times, yes.
5 Q. Did Kovac's mother come to the apartment on
6 occasion and bring you food?
7 A. I don't remember.
8 Q. I'll go back to that question later on, when
9 I link it up to an event that I'm sure you'll remember
10 took place.
11 On the basis of what you have told me so far,
12 can you tell me, in view of everything, of the
13 foregoing -- and I'm sure that you didn't have a good
14 time, that it wasn't good for you anywhere during that
15 period -- but while you were in Kovac's flat, could you
16 tell me whether it was easier and better for you than
17 in the secondary school centre and in Partizan and in
18 Karaman's House?
19 A. Well, as far as all these other places are
20 concerned, there wasn't any difference, because I was
21 raped at all these places, and even at Kovac's
22 apartment, by Kovac himself and by Kostic. So that for
23 me personally, I can make no distinction between those
24 places; there's no difference.
25 Q. In the 40 days that you spent in the
Page 1806
1 apartment, approximately, can you tell me how many
2 times Kovac spent the night in the apartment?
3 A. Well, I couldn't say. I know that at times,
4 because he had to go to the front line, he would be
5 away for a couple of days, but I can't say exactly.
6 Q. Was he absent only to go to the front line,
7 or did he -- was he absent, was he away on two
8 occasions because of other reasons?
9 A. I don't know.
10 Q. And now this brings me to what you mentioned
11 a moment ago and what you recounted earlier on, and
12 that is the following: During Kovac's stay in the
13 apartment, when he was not up at the line, as you say
14 yourself, you told us that you were taken out, you were
15 taken into town. Did I understand you correctly?
16 A. Could you repeat that question, please?
17 Q. Yes, I'll be glad to. When they were not at
18 the front line, or on another assignment, you yourself
19 said that they would -- perhaps ten minutes ago you
20 said this -- that they took you into town. Did I
21 understand you to say that? Is that correct?
22 A. Yes, it is.
23 Q. And what did these outings into town look
24 like? Where did you go? Where were you taken?
25 A. Well, we would be taken to cafes or pubs.
Page 1807
1 Q. Do you remember the names of any of these
2 coffee bars?
3 A. No, I don't remember any of their names.
4 Q. Does the Linea Cafe ring a bell?
5 A. Well, although it does ring a bell, I can't
6 be quite sure.
7 Q. What about Leonardo?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Han?
10 A. What did you say, I'm sorry?
11 Q. Han. I said Han.
12 A. No, that doesn't either.
13 Q. I see. Tell me how often this was.
14 A. I can't be quite sure, once again, but I
15 think this happened about five times, approximately
16 five times.
17 Q. In addition to the fact that you were taken
18 to these cafes and pubs, whose names you don't
19 remember, did you perhaps go visiting with Kovac to his
20 friends' and acquaintances'?
21 A. I don't remember.
22 Q. You don't remember a family named Jojic?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Tell me, please: What was their -- that is
25 to say, when you went into town, what was their
Page 1808
1 attitude towards you, in comparison to, let's say, the
2 other soldiers that were sitting around and the
3 civilians sitting around? Were there ever any
4 incidents or attempts -- that is to say, would they
5 protect you in any way if there was an incident of any
6 kind in these places?
7 A. I don't remember.
8 Q. Yesterday, when you were questioned by the
9 Prosecution, you mentioned that Kovac had been
10 wounded.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you remember when this occurred?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Do you remember that he had to go to hospital
15 as a result of that wounding?
16 A. I think that is true, yes, that he spent
17 several days in hospital.
18 Q. You said, but let us confirm this -- where
19 was the wound? Where was he wounded? Do you remember?
20 A. I don't remember exactly, but I know that it
21 was the leg, I think, or his ankle, that area. I don't
22 remember which leg it was.
23 Q. When he left hospital, did he have to use a
24 crutch to help him walk?
25 A. I don't remember. I think he did, yes.
Page 1809
1 Q. Do you remember an incident which occurred in
2 the apartment on Christmas Eve, that is, the Christmas
3 Eve of the orthodox Christmas? Do you remember that
4 something happened then?
5 A. Well, I don't know. I can't answer that.
6 Q. I'm asking you about the arrival of a certain
7 Ratko, or Rajko Cicmil, who banged on the door and
8 tried to barge in when only you girls happened to be in
9 the apartment.
10 A. I don't remember that.
11 Q. You don't remember that one of you, maybe it
12 was AS, that she called Kovac's relative who lived two
13 floors below to come and help you out? And don't you
14 remember that he came very soon after that and disarmed
15 this drunken soldier?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Were there any incidents, alarming incidents
18 of this kind, when he was not in the apartment? And
19 I'm thinking about attempts made by some men to storm
20 the apartment and to get access.
21 A. I don't remember.
22 Q. I then take it that you don't remember that
23 on Christmas Eve, his mother came up after that
24 alarming incident, bringing cakes and fruit?
25 A. No, I don't remember.
Page 1810
1 Q. Do you know whether during the time that you
2 were in the apartment that Kovac was under detention in
3 the KP Dom for a certain time?
4 A. I don't remember that.
5 Q. Are you still not able to tell us or
6 calculate how many times he actually spent the night in
7 the apartment?
8 A. No, I can't, although it was frequently.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, any more questions?
10 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I do, Your
11 Honour, but if I may have a moment to look at my
12 notes.
13 Q. In your statement given to the investigators
14 of this Tribunal, and it is on page 13, would you
15 please take a look at page 13, and it is paragraph 5,
16 and it begins: "In that flat, all four of us were
17 raped by Klanfa and Kostic whenever they were in the
18 apartment." Is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. That is all you stated to the investigators
21 of the Tribunal connected to the rapes that took place
22 in that apartment to you and your friends during the
23 time that you were in that apartment, if I have read
24 your statement correctly.
25 A. Well, I don't know how the statement sounds,
Page 1811
1 what the statement sounds like now, but I remember very
2 well that I was raped from the first moment I came to
3 Kovac's apartment to the last moment in Kovac's
4 apartment, when I left it.
5 Q. Well, that's what I want to ask you, because
6 you told the Court that you and number 75 were raped by
7 Kovac, and that you know that AS was raped by Jagos,
8 but you couldn't say about AB, and that is something
9 that exists in the transcript. Now, I'm interested in
10 knowing a little more about this. Could you describe
11 this to me in greater detail, Kovac's relationship to
12 you and his conduct towards you, his behaviour towards
13 you and towards number 75?
14 A. I don't know what you mean exactly.
15 Q. Linked to the rapes. Did Kovac rape you and
16 87 all the time while you were in the flat?
17 A. You mean number 75. I don't know about
18 number 75, although I do know that she was raped when
19 we arrived in the apartment. As far as I'm concerned,
20 I can confirm that I was raped by Kovac. As for number
21 75, I couldn't say. I state that once again. I can't
22 actually say. I just know that the first time -- I
23 don't know whether she was raped during the short space
24 of time that she was in the flat or not. I can't say.
25 Q. I'm asking you that not only because yourself
Page 1812
1 but because the other girls, because some of them have
2 already testified. Of course, I'm not going to say
3 what they said, nor do I have the right to do so, it
4 was only my intention to clarify certain points.
5 A. Well, I don't understand you.
6 Q. No. I wasn't asking a question. I was just
7 making a comment and saying why I wanted to hear this
8 from you.
9 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I
10 think we're coming up to the break. Perhaps, in view
11 of the fact that --
12 JUDGE MUMBA: You still have more questions?
13 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I do have more
14 questions.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: We'll have a break at
16 1100 hours, and we'll continue these proceedings at
17 1130 hours.
18 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.
19 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Before counsel proceeds with
21 cross-examination, I understand from the French
22 interpreters that they had a problem with one answer
23 from the witness. So I would like to find out from
24 them where about is the problem so that we can put it
25 to the witness to answer again, and I would ask
Page 1813
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Page 1814
1 counsel, Kolesar, to understand this. Listen to what
2 the interpreters will say.
3 Perhaps the -- I don't know, because I can't
4 get anything --
5 THE INTERPRETER: The question was whether
6 the door was locked or not.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: The door to what? To which
8 apartment or house?
9 THE INTERPRETER: The door of the apartment
10 used by Kovac. Mr. Kolesar put this question around
11 10.45, whether the door was closed or locked. The
12 witness said that they didn't have a key. So whether
13 it was one of those doors that locks automatically.
14 The question basically is whether the door was locked
15 or not.
16 JUDGE MUMBA: So I will ask counsel, if he
17 has understood that, to repeat the question so that the
18 witness can answer.
19 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Yes, Your
20 Honour.
21 Q. My question was: At the times when Kovac and
22 Kostic were outside the apartment, when they were not
23 in the apartment, the entrance -- the main door to the
24 apartment, was it locked? And the girls who were in
25 the apartment, were they able to lock and unlock the
Page 1815
1 door from the inside?
2 My question now is rather more detailed, but
3 that is the gist of the question.
4 A. The door of the apartment was locked, and we
5 didn't have a key, and we couldn't open the door.
6 Q. Let me then add to that. In one of the
7 drawers were there other sets of keys that could open
8 the door?
9 A. No.
10 Q. How then could you go to the shop to buy food
11 and cigarettes?
12 A. We never went to the shop to buy food and
13 cigarettes.
14 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I
15 think we've cleared up the matter now, have we not?
16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Please proceed.
17 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Let me try to jog your memory by referring to
19 an event. Before you left Karaman's House, in the
20 presence of Tuta, Zelja, and Gojko, was another
21 Montenegrin soldier there who asked you to cross
22 yourself, to make the sign of the cross?
23 A. I cannot remember that.
24 Q. Never mind, then. We can move on.
25 Tell me, please: Where did each of the girls
Page 1816
1 sleep? In which room and in which bed?
2 A. When all four girls were there, for the short
3 while that all four of us were there, I cannot tell
4 you. As for the period when me and AS were in the
5 apartment, I would always stay in the big room, with
6 Kovac, and AS would always be in the smaller room with
7 Kostic.
8 Q. Why can't you answer the first part of my
9 question, that is, for the period when all four of you
10 were in the apartment?
11 A. This was a short period of time. They
12 didn't -- they weren't with us for long, so that I
13 cannot remember where each of us slept.
14 Q. Let us go back again to page 13 of your
15 statement to the Tribunal, to the investigators, dated
16 January 1995 [sic], where, in that same paragraph, third
17 paragraph from the bottom, you refer, with only one
18 sentence, to the event when you were forced to take off
19 your clothes and to dance. In your testimony in court
20 yesterday, you described the event differently. So my
21 question is: How many times were you forced, as a
22 group, to take your clothes off in the presence of the
23 accused Kovac and Kostic?
24 A. As a group, this occurred twice.
25 Q. Will you tell me when it occurred for the
Page 1817
1 first time, and when and where?
2 A. The first time it was in Kovac's apartment,
3 immediately after we arrived at the apartment. The
4 second instance was in an apartment in Gornje Polje;
5 however, when that happened, I am unable to say.
6 Q. When this happened in Kovac's apartment for
7 the first time, which of the girls were present?
8 A. All four of us were present.
9 Q. When you stripped, what did you do?
10 A. I can't remember that exactly. I don't
11 remember that so well. I think I was standing in the
12 corner of the main room, but I can't be sure.
13 Q. I apologise, but I really don't understand
14 what you mean, "in the corner."
15 A. I mean on a bed that was a corner sort of
16 settee.
17 Q. And the second time, who was present, and
18 when did this happen?
19 A. I don't remember when the second time
20 occurred. I don't remember exactly the time or the
21 date. I can't be sure whether all four of us were
22 there, though I do remember that number 75 was with
23 me. I know that we were not alone; there was someone
24 else. But whether all four of us were there, I'm not
25 sure.
Page 1818
1 Q. So you say this was in an apartment in Gornje
2 Polje?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Can you describe the event to us on that
5 occasion?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Where were you standing then?
8 A. I think we were standing on the table.
9 Q. What kind of table?
10 A. I don't remember that.
11 Q. And you say that once again you were alone.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Where and when? Could you tell me where and
14 when?
15 A. Again, I cannot remember when, though this
16 did happen in Kovac's apartment, in the big room.
17 Q. When you arrived in that apartment -- surely
18 I don't have to identify it every time; you know which
19 apartment I am referring to -- do you know what
20 happened to your sister?
21 A. No.
22 Q. You did not receive any information from
23 anybody about her fate?
24 A. No, I don't remember that.
25 Q. Thank you. You explained here in the Trial
Page 1819
1 Chamber that in fact there were three strippings: two
2 in a group and one that relates to you alone. And in a
3 statement that you made to the investigators, given
4 some time ago, you stated, as we have just read, that
5 all four of you were forced on one occasion to take off
6 your clothes and to dance on a table, to the
7 accompaniment of Muslim music. Which is the truth?
8 A. I don't know what you mean.
9 Q. What you said in court yesterday or what you
10 told the investigators of the Tribunal in January 1995 [sic]?
11 A. I think both statements are true, but the one
12 I gave in the Tribunal is more detailed, because I
13 remembered some additional things.
14 Q. Personally, I think that the statement that
15 you gave to the Tribunal about this event, consisting
16 of three sentences, is less, much less detailed than
17 what you told the Court here yesterday.
18 A. Possibly.
19 Q. But not possibly quite certainly. Far more
20 words are uttered than are contained in the statement
21 you made to the investigators.
22 A. Possibly. I really don't know the exact
23 reason why in my first statement to the Tribunal in
24 1996 I did not speak in greater detail about those
25 events.
Page 1820
1 JUDGE MUMBA: I would like to ask counsel on
2 the explanation of the witness. Counsel, you realise
3 that investigators are different from trial attorneys
4 in the manner they ask questions. So sometimes details
5 are elicited by the way the question is put to the
6 witness either in court or during the taking down of
7 the statement.
8 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I would agree
9 with you, Your Honour, but the technology used by the
10 investigator depends on the investigator, but the
11 taking of the statement took place much closer to the
12 time of the event, and I would be free to assume that
13 the witness told the investigator what she knew at the
14 time. But let that be, because as you have said, Your
15 Honour, it depends on the method used.
16 Q. Does the name "Panta" mean anything, to you,
17 Panta from Foca?
18 A. It sounds familiar. It does sound familiar,
19 but I can't say anything about it.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
21 Microphone. Microphone. I'm sorry, we didn't hear
22 that question.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Can you repeat the question
24 with your microphone on?
25 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation]
Page 1821
1 Q. Does the name "Panta" mean anything to you?
2 A. Though it sounds familiar, I can say nothing
3 about it.
4 Q. After you left the territory of Bosnia, or
5 whatever you like to call it, and your arrival in
6 Montenegro, you and AS worked at a time in a coffee bar
7 owned by somebody called Djilas, is that so?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. While you were working at Djilas's, did this
10 Panta come and visit him?
11 A. I don't remember that.
12 Q. Do you remember that a person came and that
13 through that person you sent a letter to Foca?
14 A. I don't remember that.
15 Q. This was, in fact, a joint letter by you and
16 AS.
17 A. I don't remember that.
18 Q. You don't remember that at the end of the
19 letter there was a heart drawn with an arrow piercing
20 it? An arrow for Klanfa. Finally, something linked to
21 your assertions that you and AS were sold.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. In a statement, on page 14, that we are
24 referring to, you said that you were in the corridor
25 and eavesdropping on the conversation between Kovac,
Page 1822
1 Kostic, and the two Montenegrins.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And where were they?
4 A. In the large room.
5 Q. You also said you didn't see the money
6 exchanging hands.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Between the kitchen and the big room there is
9 a hall leading to all the rooms, according to your
10 sketch today.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. If you could hear from the kitchen what was
13 being said in the big room?
14 A. I don't understand the question.
15 Q. You said they were in the big room
16 negotiating the sale of you for 500 marks and, at that
17 time, you were in the kitchen.
18 A. At the time that we heard it, I think we were
19 in the corridor, in the hall. We didn't hear the whole
20 conversation between them, but we heard the part
21 relating to the money.
22 Q. In that same statement, you said that you
23 were in the corridor -- "I heard them talking in the
24 corridor with Kostic and Kovac," which means that
25 Kostic and Kovac were in the corridor, rather than you
Page 1823
1
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22
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25
Page 1824
1 and AS.
2 A. No. They were in the big room and we were in
3 the corridor.
4 Q. So could you please read your statement,
5 page 14, third paragraph? The first two sentences.
6 A. "Sometime before the 25th of February, I
7 remember that the two Montenegrins came to Klanfa's
8 flat. I did not recognise them at this time but I
9 found out their names later. I heard them talking in
10 the lounge to Kostic and Kovac. [redacted] and we
11 were told to go to the kitchen but we were
12 eavesdropping."
13 Q. Please read it out. If you wish to read it
14 out, go on reading. I don't need it any more than
15 that.
16 In view of the fact that you did not see the
17 payments actually being made, are you quite sure that
18 you were sold?
19 A. I have already said that I heard the
20 conversation regarding the amount the Montenegrins
21 would pay for the two of us or how much they should pay
22 for the two of us, but that I personally did not see
23 the money exchanging hands and that I cannot say with
24 certainty that we were sold.
25 Q. Thank you very much, Witness.
Page 1825
1 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Thank you very
2 much, Your Honours, I have no more questions.
3 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Jovanovic.
4 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your
5 Honour. With your permission, I would have a couple of
6 questions.
7 Cross-examined by Mr. Jovanovic:
8 Q. Good day to you. I would like to know --
9 just a moment. Something seems to be wrong with the
10 equipment. I think it will be all right now.
11 If I understood you correctly, you saw Zoran
12 Vukovic only twice, in the secondary school for the
13 first time, and the second time when he brought the
14 uniform.
15 A. Yes. The two times that I can recollect.
16 Q. At the moment when you were in Klanfa's flat,
17 let us call it that so we know what we're talking
18 about, at the beginning when the four of you were
19 there ...
20 A. I think that only the two of us were there at
21 the time.
22 Q. I'm sorry, I can't hear you at all. Would
23 you say something, please, so that I can find you? Say
24 just anything, please. Can you hear me? Because I
25 don't seem to be able to hear you.
Page 1826
1 A. Yes, I can hear you.
2 Q. How much time did all four of you spend
3 together in that apartment? Can you tell us?
4 Roughly.
5 A. I can't tell you exactly. I can't tell you
6 exactly. I think the four of us were not there for
7 long together, but I couldn't even tell you roughly for
8 how many days this was. Maybe seven to ten days.
9 Q. At the time when all four of you were in the
10 apartment, did Zoran Vukovic come with that uniform?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Thank you. In that period, did Zoran Vukovic
13 come to the apartment at all during those seven days?
14 A. I think that Zoran Vukovic appeared in the
15 apartment at the time when only I and AS were in it.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The technical
18 booth informs me that the microphone of Mr. Jovanovic
19 is much too loud, so he has to reduce the sound in his
20 headphone so as to avoid the interference, or possibly
21 switch to another channel.
22 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm using
23 channel 6. The microphone is close to the minimum, and
24 now I've reduced the volume in the headphones, so I
25 hope it will be all right now.
Page 1827
1 Q. I have prepared for you a host of questions
2 relating to differences that appear in your statements
3 and have to do exclusively with the way in which you
4 identify Zoran Vukovic, how you describe him in one
5 statement and in another, and then again what you told
6 the investigators, that you learnt about him from
7 another witness who has already testified here. But to
8 avoid going through all those details now, because it
9 is all in the record, I'm interested in general terms,
10 for you to tell me how did this come about. This is a
11 description of a man, of an individual; it's not a
12 situation or an occurrence that we may remember or not
13 remember. Someone can change, that is for sure -- more
14 or less hair, dyes his hair and so on -- but his
15 physical constitution can hardly change. So can you
16 give me a general answer as to how these differences
17 occur? Can you explain that to me, please.
18 A. I didn't see Zoran Vukovic many times, and I
19 recollect only two times, so I cannot remember any
20 significant traits regarding his appearance. I could
21 say he was medium height, medium weight, he had
22 light-brown hair, or fair hair, or something like that,
23 but it is all due to the fact that I only saw him a
24 couple of times.
25 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
Page 1828
1 Q. Let me ask you something else. You were very
2 young when this happened to you, and you were very
3 young when you were making your statements to the
4 persons responsible for this. When you made those
5 statements, were you alone? Let me make it clear.
6 Were you being accompanied by a member of your family
7 or an older person?
8 A. No.
9 Q. As we saw here, that sometimes there are very
10 serious contradictions between what you said the first
11 time and the second time. In the course of that
12 questioning, or that interview, did anyone assist you
13 to remember certain details: names, how people were
14 dressed or the list of persons that you named? In one
15 interview you produced a whole list of people, then
16 they disappear later on. What I'm trying to say is:
17 Did anyone lead you through that interview?
18 A. I don't know what you mean by "lead."
19 Q. Did anyone help you recollect something that
20 you may have forgotten?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Did anyone suggest to you the answers you
23 would give, to a point?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Then I have to ask you once again. Tell me,
Page 1829
1 please: How is it possible that there should be such
2 differences?
3 A. I don't know whether I can explain that.
4 Eight years have gone by since those events. Since my
5 first statement it is four years ago; my second
6 statement, six years; the period in between was two
7 years. So I had forgotten some things. But if I am
8 giving a statement covering the whole period, from the
9 beginning until the end, as I have done in court, then
10 there may be things that I recollect on the spur of the
11 moment that I may not have remembered before.
12 Q. If I understand you correctly, whenever you
13 are in a position to recount about those events, you
14 remember more and more details as you go along.
15 A. No, that is not what I meant. It is when I
16 was testifying here in court, I personally had to
17 create an image of that whole period of time, so that I
18 think that it is possible that I may remember something
19 just then, because I had to recount the whole story at
20 once. And not only was I supposed to give you the
21 story, but also to create an image of the whole thing,
22 and maybe that is the reason.
23 Q. Well, if I understand you correctly, what we
24 have heard here from you is the most complete
25 recollection of what happened to you.
Page 1830
1 A. Yes. There are some things that I have
2 forgotten, of course; and quite certainly, as you
3 yourself have said, there are some things that I happen
4 to remember on the spur of the moment.
5 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no
6 further questions, Your Honours. Thank you.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Any re-examination from the
8 Prosecution?
9 MS. KUO: Just very briefly, Your Honours.
10 Re-examined by Ms. Kuo:
11 Q. Witness, while you were detained in Klanfa's
12 apartment, were you permitted any contact with the
13 outside world, such as to locate your family and let
14 them know where you were?
15 A. No. That was not possible.
16 Q. Why was it not possible?
17 A. Firstly, because we were always locked up;
18 second, we didn't have any telephones or anything like
19 that for us to be able to have contact. There were
20 none of these facilities to make any contacts with the
21 outside world.
22 Q. Mr. Kolesar asked you about washing clothing
23 and making coffee. Did you have to do things like that
24 for Kovac and Kostic as well?
25 A. Yes.
Page 1831
1 Q. Did you have to do anything else?
2 A. I'm not sure that I understand you. What do
3 you mean by that?
4 Q. I mean by way of household things that you
5 were forced to do.
6 A. I think they were the usual type of
7 housework: cleaning, washing, that kind of thing.
8 Q. In the first few days when you were detained
9 in Klanfa's apartment, together with 75 and AB, were
10 you constantly and continuously in the apartment, or
11 were you taken out sometimes?
12 A. I can't remember exactly. I know that we
13 were taken out, but I cannot be certain as to where and
14 whether that was then at that time when the four of us
15 were there in that apartment.
16 Q. And during that same time period, were you
17 able to keep track of everybody who came and went into
18 that apartment?
19 A. I don't understand your question.
20 Q. I mean, is it -- you were asked questions
21 about whether somebody could have come into the
22 apartment during that time period. Did you know -- is
23 it possible that there were people that came into the
24 apartment at some point and you did not know about it?
25 A. No. I don't think so.
Page 1832
1 Q. Were there times when you were taken into a
2 room and raped in that apartment?
3 A. As far as the Kovac apartment is concerned,
4 in that apartment I was raped by Kovac and Kostic.
5 There were others who came, but I don't remember. I
6 couldn't say whether I was raped by anyone else or not
7 during the time that the four of us were there.
8 Q. Could you say whether any of those other
9 people were raping the other three girls, any of the
10 other three girls?
11 A. I think they were, yes, but I can't be sure.
12 MS. KUO: I have no further questions.
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you very much, Witness,
14 for giving evidence. You are free; now you can go.
15 [The witness withdrew]
16 MR. RYNEVELD: If I may address the Chamber
17 just prior to calling the next two witnesses. I might
18 indicate to you that there are some additional matters
19 that I'm going to be seeking some assistance from the
20 Chamber as to how you wish me to proceed. Let me
21 explain.
22 The next two witnesses, numbers 127 and 152,
23 are the mothers of AB and AS. As you know, when we
24 have dealt with witnesses, in order to keep protective
25 measures in place, we have shown lists with names
Page 1833
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Page 1834
1 printed on them and numbers corresponding. That works
2 well if the witnesses are literate. The next two
3 witnesses, to my understanding, are totally illiterate,
4 to the extent that they cannot even recognise their own
5 name when written on a piece of paper, or a number.
6 That being so, I'm also concerned, based on
7 personal experience, that although they may be prompted
8 to use only initials, that in the course of giving
9 evidence, I anticipate that they may inadvertently
10 blurt out a name of their daughter or another protected
11 witness's name.
12 That does present a bit of a challenge in
13 order to present the evidence in an open session, and I
14 have a number of alternatives, which is why I'm laying
15 this out for you. One, of course, would be to go into
16 private session when we get to that point. Another
17 would be to call the witnesses in open session and ask
18 them to not use the name of a witness, but then, of
19 course, we will not know -- I'm sorry, not a witness
20 but someone to whom protective measures apply, but that
21 we would have two risks, (A) they may blurt out a name;
22 (B) unless they are shown the name on a statement or
23 piece of paper, that name will not go into evidence.
24 I am willing to try -- well, I'll do whatever
25 the Court wants me to do, but my proposal is that we
Page 1835
1 try to deal with as much of the evidence in open
2 session, and when we get to an area where I know I'm
3 about to ask a question that may inadvertently lead to
4 a risky area, that we might go into private session for
5 two or three questions. That is a possibility, but I'm
6 in your hands as to how you wish to deal with it.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: One of the ways you are
8 proposing is that for the same witness, at times we are
9 in open session, at times in private session, private
10 session meaning closed session.
11 MR. RYNEVELD: Private insofar as no audio.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
13 MR. RYNEVELD: I don't care about the
14 curtains being open.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: The witness will be screened,
16 of course.
17 MR. RYNEVELD: The witness will be screened.
18 I'm asking, especially with respect to the first
19 witness, the issue of protective measures for her are
20 not as much of a concern as they are for people whom
21 she may name who are protected witnesses.
22 JUDGE MUMBA: May I make this short. Having
23 talked to your witnesses, yourself and your colleagues
24 as counsel, having been informed and observed that
25 these witnesses cannot read and write, cannot tell
Page 1836
1 them, and all that, would you, as trial attorney,
2 prefer that these two witnesses give evidence in closed
3 session, having mentioned the problems?
4 MR. RYNEVELD: I'm as eager as the Court is
5 to have these matters, as far as possible, in open
6 session. If you could entrust to me to avoid those
7 areas until I get to a point where I anticipate we may
8 run into an area of risk, that may be the best way to
9 do it, and then simply to cut off the audio for those
10 questions.
11 Now, the most -- absolutely the most secure
12 method would be to go into closed session, but we must
13 weigh the balance between protective measures and
14 having these matters heard in open session. So I
15 thought that the most prudent thing for me to do was to
16 outline the difficulties to you and ask for your
17 guidance on the issue.
18 [Trial Chamber deliberates]
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We will leave it to the
20 trial attorney to indicate when you feel we can go into
21 private session and when you feel we can go into open
22 session. Let's see how it works.
23 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. I will do my
24 best. Before the witness is brought in, I wonder
25 whether this one final curtain can be closed. The
Page 1837
1 protective measures, I think, that would be required
2 for this witness would only be face distortion, not
3 voice distortion.
4 Could we call Witness 127, please.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: So to clarify this, I will say
6 that this witness will have face distortion only and
7 sometimes private session.
8 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. When I get to the point
9 where I anticipate asking questions which are designed
10 to elicit an answer that is the nature of protective
11 measures, I will indicate that to the Court and wait
12 until the issue becomes clear.
13 The difficulty I have, of course, is there
14 may be an instance where a name may be blurted out
15 unintentionally, in which case we'll have to go to
16 redaction.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Yes.
18 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The technical
19 booth needs a five-minute break to make the necessary
20 adjustments.
21 JUDGE HUNT: There is no voice distortion
22 required.
23 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Indeed.
24 There will be no voice distortion, and that is why the
25 technical booth tells me that they need five minutes.
Page 1838
1 MR. RYNEVELD: I take it that's to undo the
2 voice distortion that was in place for other
3 witnesses.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. So we'll simply wait for
5 the five minutes.
6 MR. RYNEVELD: May I also raise another issue
7 then while we're awaiting this, and that is the method
8 by which this witness will be sworn and state her
9 name. It may be that someone will have to read the
10 oath, as it were, to her in her language and see if she
11 agrees.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: I think we can do that in
13 private session so that you can lead her as to "Is this
14 your name, so-and-so," private session, then we open.
15 MR. RYNEVELD: So that was my long
16 introductory way of saying perhaps we should start the
17 first couple of minutes in private session.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think it's better that
19 way.
20 MR. RYNEVELD: But nevertheless, someone will
21 still have to read -- I'll still need someone to be
22 able to read the oath to her in B/C/S.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, we haven't got --
24 MR. RYNEVELD: In B/C/S?
25 JUDGE MUMBA: We haven't got our --
Page 1839
1 MR. RYNEVELD: Oh, we have a translator. Of
2 course. Of course. Sorry. Sometimes I forget that
3 the translation is able to take care of little problems
4 like that.
5 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The technical
6 booth is now ready. The technician is going to come
7 into the hall to adjust the microphones, I assume.
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The technicians can come
9 in and do whatever is necessary for us to proceed with
10 this witness, bearing in mind that we'll have a private
11 session first and then we will be changing later.
12 [The witness entered court]
13 [Private session]
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 1840
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Page 1842
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 [Open session]
9 MR. RYNEVELD:
10 Q. Witness, you've heard me make reference to
11 your oldest daughter. From now on I'm going to be
12 referring to your oldest daughter by the initials AB.
13 Do you understand that?
14 A. Yes, I understand. I don't know much about
15 it, though. I said I didn't -- I told you I didn't
16 know much about that, that you were just going to
17 mention my daughter. That's what you said.
18 Q. Yes. All right. When I refer to your
19 daughter from now on in, I will be referring to someone
20 by the initials of AB, okay? Do you understand that?
21 And I don't wish you to mention her name. You can
22 refer to her as your daughter, and we will all
23 understand that you are talking about your eldest
24 daughter. Thank you.
25 Now, you've told us, Witness, that you and
Page 1843
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Page 1844
1 your family lived in Miljevina; is that correct?
2 A. That's correct.
3 Q. And you had lived there for, I understand,
4 about 12 years prior to the outbreak of the war in
5 April of 1992; is that correct?
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. Now, did something happen in June of 1992
8 affecting your family? And please do not mention any
9 family member names. You can refer to them by their
10 relationship to you, okay?
11 THE INTERPRETER: I'm afraid we did not hear
12 the witness.
13 A. You mean my husband disappearing? Is that
14 what you mean?
15 MR. RYNEVELD:
16 Q. Let's start there. What happened in June of
17 1992? Did some police come to your home?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Would you tell us about that, please.
20 A. Can I say how a policeman came to my house,
21 and which policeman? Can I say his name?
22 Q. Absolutely.
23 A. Rade Draskovic.
24 Q. If you remember these names. The only names
25 I want to be careful about is that you don't name your
Page 1845
1 family names, okay? But if you know the names of
2 policemen or soldiers, or anything like that, go ahead
3 and tell us those names. Do you understand that?
4 A. I said that Rade Draskovic turned up and
5 Krsto Skakavac turned up to fetch my husband, and took
6 him off.
7 Q. Yes. And these two individuals, did you know
8 them prior to them coming to your home?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. How did you know these two policemen?
11 A. (redacted).
12 Q. Do you know what their ethnic origins were?
13 A. Serbs, Chetniks.
14 Q. How were they dressed when they came to your
15 home?
16 A. They had police uniforms.
17 Q. Did they have any weapons with them?
18 A. Yes, they did.
19 Q. Do you remember what kind or whether they
20 were -- well, tell us what you remember about the
21 weapons.
22 A. I don't really remember.
23 Q. Okay. Why did they come to your house?
24 A. They came to take my husband away.
25 Q. Did they give you a reason why they came to
Page 1846
1 take your husband away?
2 A. My husband asked what were they going to do
3 with him, and the answer was, "I have orders to take
4 you to the SUP," and that's what happened.
5 Q. Do I understand you correctly that the SUP is
6 the police headquarters building?
7 A. The police was in Miljevina, and that is
8 where they took them. The police station was there,
9 yes. Even before, in peacetime, the police was there.
10 Q. Okay. And did they in fact take your husband
11 away?
12 A. They took him to the police. That's what
13 they said.
14 Q. Do you know whether your husband was the only
15 man being taken away?
16 A. I heard they took them all, all our men that
17 remained in Miljevina.
18 Q. When you say "our men," do you mean of mixed
19 ethnicity or of any particular ethnicity?
20 A. Muslims. I don't know how else -- what else
21 I would mean when I say "our men."
22 Q. All right. Do you know how many men were
23 taken away in addition to your husband, approximately?
24 A. I heard that 30 of our men were taken away.
25 I don't know exactly. That is what I heard.
Page 1847
1 Q. Do you know who was involved, what kind of
2 people were involved in taking these men away? You've
3 told us about two policemen came to get your husband.
4 How about the other men? Do you know whether they were
5 taken away by policemen or soldiers, or what?
6 A. I told you that I didn't know. I just know
7 who took my husband away.
8 Q. Do you remember any of the names of the other
9 people that took the men away?
10 A. I don't remember.
11 Q. All right. Do you know where the men were
12 taken?
13 A. They said that they took them to the KP Dom
14 in Foca, the prison facility.
15 Q. Do you remember the date that your husband
16 was taken away?
17 A. I don't remember, honestly.
18 Q. Have you ever seen your husband again since
19 he was taken away from you?
20 A. I never saw him again, nor did I hear
21 anything about him.
22 Q. From the time the two policemen came to take
23 him away, you've not heard from or seen your husband
24 since?
25 A. Yes, that is right.
Page 1848
1 MR. RYNEVELD: Excuse me, Your Honours. I
2 just want to reorganise my notes to make sure I'm not
3 getting into a sensitive area.
4 Q. I'm going to ask you to turn now to tell us
5 about your oldest daughter. When your husband was
6 taken away, did your oldest daughter and your other two
7 daughters continue to live with you in Miljevina?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Was there a time when you and your daughters
10 also left Miljevina?
11 A. Yes. We left it when we were chased out of
12 Miljevina.
13 Q. What do you mean "chased out"? How did that
14 happen?
15 A. They told us that we all had to leave
16 Miljevina.
17 Q. Who is "they"?
18 A. The Serbs.
19 Q. Do you know which Serbs may have told you
20 that you had to leave Miljevina?
21 A. Pero Elez announced it, but I can't say what
22 his name was. I don't know.
23 Q. When you say "Pero Elez," did you know that
24 name before the war?
25 A. Yes, I knew Pero Elez before the war.
Page 1849
1 Q. How?
2 A. I would see him in Miljevina and people would
3 say, "That was Pero Elez," that's all.
4 Q. Do you know if he was a Muslim or a Serb?
5 A. He was a Serb. As far as I know, he was a
6 Serb.
7 Q. And it was your understanding, if I
8 understand your evidence correctly, that it was Pero
9 Elez who indicated that you had to leave Miljevina? Is
10 that what I heard you say?
11 A. Yes, that is what I said.
12 Q. How far is Miljevina from Buk Bijela?
13 A. I don't even know where Buk Bijela is. All I
14 know is Miljevina.
15 Q. Okay. In Miljevina, are you familiar with
16 the name of a house that belonged to a Mr. Karaman?
17 A. I knew where Karaman's House was.
18 Q. Where was it in Miljevina?
19 A. We called the area Potkosica, something like
20 that. I am not quite sure. I think that is what the
21 area was called where his house was.
22 Q. All right. Now, was there a time when people
23 were looking for your eldest daughter, AB?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Can you tell us where you were when people
Page 1850
1 came looking for your eldest daughter, AB?
2 A. In the apartment; in the house.
3 Q. Was this the house where you lived in
4 Miljevina?
5 A. It was.
6 Q. Do you remember when it was that people came
7 looking for your daughter?
8 A. They came in the evening. I don't know what
9 time it was, but it was dark.
10 Q. Do you remember what month?
11 A. I don't remember, I'm afraid.
12 Q. Do you remember the time of year, whether it
13 was spring, or winter, or fall, or summer?
14 A. I think it was September. I'm not sure. I
15 think it was September. I don't know the date,
16 however.
17 Q. Do you remember who came looking for your
18 eldest daughter, AB?
19 A. Jego came, but I don't know his first name or
20 surname. I did give his name in my statement, but I
21 said I'd forgotten it. I can't forget his nickname,
22 however. It's Jego.
23 Q. When Jego came to your apartment, how do you
24 know he was looking for your daughter? What did he
25 say?
Page 1851
1 A. He came under the window and he called out
2 and he -- may I use the name? He called for my
3 daughter, called her out by first and last name to take
4 her out.
5 Q. Thank you. Was she there?
6 A. She was with me, yes.
7 Q. Did she go with him?
8 A. We cried. She cried too. Then he threatened
9 to kill all of us, and he took her away in a car.
10 Q. How long was she gone?
11 A. Two days.
12 Q. You say she was gone for two days, so I'm
13 assuming she came back. How was she brought back or
14 how did she come back?
15 A. She came back. Pero Elez brought her back to
16 the house.
17 Q. Walking or some other means or by car or do
18 you remember?
19 A. By car. By car.
20 MR. RYNEVELD: Might we, at this point, very
21 briefly enter into private session? I'm going to ask a
22 couple of questions that may elicit some answers.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, please.
24 [Private session]
25 (redacted)
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24 [Open session]
25 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.
Page 1856
1 Q. Witness, talking about Karaman's House, did
2 you speak to other people in the Miljevina area with
3 respect to what was going on in Karaman's House?
4 A. I just heard that there was this house,
5 Karaman's House, where my child was taken. They said
6 that they had opened a brothel there, that it was a
7 brothel in Karaman's House, and they took children
8 there.
9 Q. Who took children there, from your
10 understanding?
11 A. I don't know. I heard that somebody called
12 Zaga from Foca did it. I don't know him though.
13 Q. In any event, your daughter was taken away.
14 She told you that she'd been at Karaman's House, and
15 she was brought back in two days; is that correct?
16 A. Correct.
17 MR. RYNEVELD: Sorry, I didn't get an
18 answer.
19 THE INTERPRETER: "Correct."
20 A. Correct. Correct.
21 MR. RYNEVELD:
22 Q. Now, you've told us about a Mr. Pero Elez and
23 that you knew him before the war. Do you remember
24 anything about a car and loudspeakers that you can tell
25 us about?
Page 1857
1 A. I don't know anything about that. I don't
2 remember.
3 Q. All right. Let's move on to another topic.
4 Did you stay in Miljevina for the rest of your time or
5 did you leave it at some point?
6 A. We left on the 2nd of September. We left
7 Miljevina.
8 Q. Why?
9 JUDGE MUMBA: Could we just have a
10 confirmation, counsel, what year?
11 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.
12 Q. You left in what year? Do you remember the
13 year that you left Miljevina?
14 A. 1992.
15 Q. And you say it was the 2nd of September, 1992
16 that you left?
17 MR. RYNEVELD: Sorry, I didn't get the answer
18 translated.
19 A. Yes. Yes.
20 MR. RYNEVELD:
21 Q. Thank you. Tell us about how it was that you
22 left Miljevina.
23 A. They announced that they would transfer us to
24 our people in Foca.
25 Q. Who announced that?
Page 1858
1 A. Pero Elez. I told you.
2 Q. I'm sorry if some of my questions appear to
3 be dumb, but there is a reason for my asking them. So
4 you say Pero Elez -- tell us about how it was that you
5 were informed that you had to leave Miljevina.
6 A. We were informed through that something -- I
7 don't know how to describe it -- that at a certain hour
8 we had to go to Foca.
9 Q. Were you told why?
10 A. That we were going to our people. That they
11 would transfer us to our people.
12 Q. Were you told -- sorry. You weren't
13 finished.
14 A. That we could not go on living in Miljevina
15 with them.
16 Q. Why?
17 A. How do I know? That's what they said, that
18 we couldn't go on living there, that they said that
19 they would expel us.
20 Q. Thank you. Well, were you, in fact, removed
21 or expelled from Miljevina, and if so, how?
22 A. All of us together left Miljevina by buses to
23 Foca.
24 Q. Do you remember how many buses there were?
25 A. As far as I can remember, there were three
Page 1859
1 buses going from Miljevina to Foca.
2 Q. Can you give us an estimate as to how many
3 Muslim people were being expelled, as you put it, from
4 Miljevina on those three buses?
5 A. I heard that it was about 200 something, but
6 I don't know exactly.
7 Q. Where did you go?
8 A. They took us to Partizan, in Foca.
9 Q. Was your eldest daughter, AB, and your two
10 other daughters, with you when you boarded the bus for
11 Partizan?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did you go directly to Partizan that day?
14 A. Yes, we did.
15 Q. What happened when you got there?
16 A. They took us inside. We sat around. Some
17 people were sitting, others were standing, and we
18 stayed there.
19 Q. And how long were you at Partizan?
20 A. As far as I can remember, from 10.00 in the
21 evening until 4.00 or 5.00, but I don't know exactly.
22 Q. Did you sleep there overnight or were you
23 just there a matter of hours?
24 A. We didn't spend the night there; we just
25 spent a couple of hours there.
Page 1860
1 Q. While you were at Partizan, did anything
2 happen to you?
3 A. No one touched us in Partizan, and then they
4 said that we would be going on by buses, and then they
5 searched us.
6 Q. When you say "they searched us," what were
7 they searching for, and who was doing the searching?
8 A. They were looking for money and gold, but I
9 don't know who it was who did the searching. I can't
10 remember who it was.
11 Q. Do you remember any nicknames of the people
12 who did the searching?
13 A. I just know that Nedzo -- now, what was his
14 surname? -- Samardzic. He said, in respect of me,
15 "Take her money and don't search her."
16 Q. Was your money taken?
17 A. It was.
18 Q. Anything else?
19 A. No, they didn't take anything else. I didn't
20 have any gold.
21 Q. Now, when they had taken your money at
22 Partizan, the arrangements were for you to go somewhere
23 else. Now, I think you've told us. I'm going to ask
24 you again where you were told you were going.
25 A. That they would take us to the border, where
Page 1861
1 our people were. But I don't know these things. I was
2 frightened.
3 Q. Yes, I understand that. Did you and your
4 family leave Partizan -- I'm sorry. I'm going to lead
5 you on this. Did you go back on the buses?
6 A. Yes. The buses were going to take us to our
7 people. Some people were left behind. We went towards
8 the buses. They wanted to take my daughter, but I
9 don't know them. And she was crying, and she was
10 saying, "Don't touch me. I'm only 12." And they said,
11 "Don't lie." And I said, "Yes, she's only 12. How
12 can you take my child?" And somehow we got into the
13 bus and they didn't take her.
14 Q. So although they tried to take your daughter
15 as you were getting onto the bus, she managed to get on
16 the bus with you and your two other daughters; is that
17 correct?
18 A. That is correct.
19 Q. And did the buses leave Partizan?
20 A. We all got into the buses and we left
21 Partizan. There were two buses.
22 MR. RYNEVELD: If I may just stop there for a
23 moment. Your Honours, I note the time. I have about
24 three or four questions left that could finish this
25 witness. But I'm in your hands, if you want me to stop
Page 1862
1 now and finish after the break or whether you want me
2 to continue at this point.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, it's better for us to
5 stick to our time, so we'll have our lunch break and
6 we'll continue the proceedings in the afternoon at 1430
7 hours.
8 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1 p.m.
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Page 1864
1 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Prosecution is
3 continuing examination-in-chief. We are in open
4 session?
5 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Yes, we are
6 in public session.
7 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. During the course of my
8 examination, I anticipate it will be necessary to
9 return one more time to private session. I won't do
10 that now; I'll come back to it, to avoid --
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
12 MR. RYNEVELD:
13 Q. Witness, just before the lunch break, I
14 believe I had asked you about whether at some point,
15 after people tried to get your daughter to go with
16 them, you managed to get her and your other two
17 daughters onto the bus leaving Partizan; is that
18 correct?
19 A. Yes, it is.
20 Q. And did the bus take off, like leave, from
21 Partizan?
22 A. It did.
23 Q. Were your daughters, all of them, aboard with
24 you?
25 A. Yes, they were.
Page 1865
1 Q. Did you get to your destination without
2 stopping, or did something happen on route?
3 A. By the Drina Bridge, the bus was stopped and
4 they took my daughter out of the bus.
5 Q. How far had you managed to get when you got
6 to the Drina River? How far was that away from
7 Partizan?
8 A. Well, I don't know. I can't tell you that.
9 Q. Were you still in Foca?
10 A. Well, by the Drina Bridge. I suppose we were
11 in Foca. I'm not from Foca to know whether that
12 belongs to Foca or not.
13 Q. All right. And how was the bus stopped? How
14 did that happen? Tell us in detail how it was that the
15 bus got stopped and they took your daughter.
16 A. There were two buses. The first passed by.
17 Nobody stopped it. But when the second one came, it
18 was stopped. There was a police car. They got out of
19 the car and came to the bus, the door of the bus, and
20 called us out by name and -- called her out by name and
21 surname. We cried and screamed and tried to see that
22 there was a relative. And I said I didn't see her
23 anymore, and he pointed a gun at my forehead and said
24 he'd kill me, and told me to keep quiet. And that's
25 how they took her out of the bus. I didn't know who it
Page 1866
1 was. I didn't know any of them.
2 Q. Who were in -- I'm sorry. You told us you
3 don't know any of them. Can you tell us -- you say it
4 was --
5 A. I don't know anybody. If I knew somebody, I
6 would tell you their name, but I don't know anybody.
7 Q. I understand that. Was it a police car that
8 you said that overtook the bus and forced it to stop?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Could you tell if the people inside that
11 police car were policemen or whether they were
12 soldiers, by their dress?
13 A. I don't know exactly whether they were
14 wearing their uniforms, the police uniforms, or -- I
15 don't know. I don't know how I managed to survive,
16 survive it all. I was so frightened.
17 MR. RYNEVELD: Might we at this point very
18 briefly move into private session again.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, please.
20 MR. RYNEVELD: And I'll await the signal.
21 [Private session]
22 (redacted)
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14 [Open session]
15 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.
16 Q. Witness, did you recently provide a
17 photograph of your daughter AB when she was still a
18 schoolgirl, just before she was taken away?
19 A. I gave it here when I came here.
20 Q. Yes. That's what I mean by "recently." You
21 brought it in the last few days, did you?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. That original photograph, did it have more
24 than -- more people on the photograph than just your
25 eldest daughter?
Page 1873
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Page 1874
1 A. That was my eldest daughter and the little
2 one and the middle one, I think.
3 Q. Yes.
4 MR. RYNEVELD: For the information of my
5 friends and the Court, we have redacted the two other
6 people, and we have blown up a photograph provided by
7 this witness. Might she be shown photograph number --
8 what I understand will become Prosecution Exhibit
9 number 195. There are copies for my learned friends
10 and for the court.
11 A. Yes, you can, if you wish to.
12 Q. Do you recognise the person in that
13 photograph?
14 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This
15 photograph is marked 195, Prosecution exhibit.
16 MR. RYNEVELD:
17 Q. Is that the photograph that you provided of
18 your daughter, AB?
19 A. It is, yes.
20 Q. Can you tell the Court how old she was when
21 this photograph was taken?
22 A. I don't know. I don't know. She went to
23 school.
24 Q. Do you know how long it was before 1992 that
25 this photograph was taken?
Page 1875
1 A. I don't know anything.
2 Q. Have you ever seen your daughter, AB, since
3 she was taken away on the bus?
4 A. No, never.
5 MR. RYNEVELD: Those are my questions. Thank
6 you.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Prosecution, before you sit
8 down, I just wanted to be clear about the statements.
9 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Do you wish them produced into
11 evidence or you'll just mark them for identification?
12 MR. RYNEVELD: It is not normally my practice
13 to do so; however, in view of the fact that I've read
14 out from these statements, I think it's now proper that
15 I ask that they be marked as Prosecution exhibits.
16 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Then they are
17 admitted into evidence. Can we have formally the
18 numbers?
19 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The witness
20 statement dated 19th of June, 1996, is marked
21 Prosecution Exhibit --
22 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is sorry,
23 but has not heard.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Maybe we should adjourn to
25 allow the witness to calm down.
Page 1876
1 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. That was going to be my
2 next request while I'm still on my feet. Thank you.
3 JUDGE MUMBA: We will wait outside. Counsel
4 will let us know.
5 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: The Court will rise.
7 --- Break taken at 2.51 p.m.
8 --- On resuming at 3.13 p.m.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Any cross-examination by
10 counsel from the Defence?
11 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
12 I have only one question which I should like to put to
13 the witness. And in view of all these circumstances --
14 before the witness appeared, I had no intention of
15 asking the witness anything at all, but since a detail
16 was mentioned that was not to be found in her
17 statements, I would like to ask her a question about
18 that detail only.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Please go ahead.
20 Cross-examined by Mr. Prodanovic:
21 Q. In the statements that you gave, never once
22 did you mention the name of Zaga, that he was the
23 person who came to Partizan to take girls out. On page
24 2 of your statement you listed eight names that your
25 daughter told you about, as coming to take girls out
Page 1877
1 and take to Karaman's House, but you did not mention
2 Zaga. You didn't mention Zaga either in your statement
3 for the investigators of the International Tribunal.
4 My question is: How come you now mention
5 Zaga, whom you didn't know in person but that people
6 had told you about him?
7 A. I heard in peacetime that there was a Zaga
8 from Foca who went around and doing all kinds of
9 things, and that he, during the war, he took girls and
10 took them off to Montenegro. What are you asking me
11 questions for? Leave me alone. You have nothing to do
12 with me. You know what you were doing and what they
13 were doing.
14 JUDGE MUMBA: Witness, please calm down.
15 Counsel was just asking you a question.
16 THE WITNESS: I can't calm down. How can I
17 calm down?
18 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no
19 further questions, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.
21 Mr. Kolesar?
22 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I
23 do not wish to ask this witness any questions.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Jovanovic?
25 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your
Page 1878
1 Honours, we have no questions.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: The Prosecution?
3 MR. RYNEVELD: No, thank you.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you very much, Witness,
5 for giving evidence. We have finished. Now you can
6 go.
7 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
8 MR. RYNEVELD: Between witnesses, if I may,
9 there is a housekeeping matter that has arisen, I
10 believe, from the transcript, where the interpreter
11 indicated that they had not heard the exhibit number
12 assigned to that second statement. That was my note
13 just before the break. I read from two statements.
14 The first was part of Exhibit 65, and the second
15 statement, which was -- I believe copies were provided,
16 also dated the 3rd of March, I understand was marked as
17 Exhibit 196, but the transcript doesn't show that.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Maybe the Registrar can repeat
19 the numbers of the exhibits.
20 [The witness withdrew]
21 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The first
22 statement was marked 65, and the second statement 196,
23 Prosecution Exhibit 196.
24 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. I just wanted the
25 record to reflect that.
Page 1879
1 JUDGE MUMBA: I would also like to remind the
2 registrar that the exhibits, the sketches drawn by our
3 witness, D55, D56, D57, we would like to have the words
4 put in English on the sketches without redrawing them,
5 please.
6 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Yes. I think
7 we have a problem in the transcript, because these are
8 exhibits --
9 JUDGE MUMBA: D35, D36 --
10 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Yes. We are
11 talking about Exhibits D35, D36, and D37. We will ask
12 for a translation today.
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.
14 The Prosecution, any other witness?
15 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.
16 We propose to call next Witness 152. This witness will
17 be similar to the last witness in that, again, she is
18 not able to read, and I would ask again that we go into
19 private session for the first little part, and if the
20 same conditions might apply for the leading of evidence
21 of this witness, I would be grateful.
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. So counsel will be able
23 to indicate when he requires private session, public
24 session, and vice versa, and the registrar will be able
25 to formally inform us accordingly.
Page 1880
1 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. Sometimes with the last
2 witness I moved into private session, and it may not
3 have been clear during the responses why we did, but
4 it's simply because I didn't know --
5 JUDGE MUMBA: No. Because we have been
6 informed that the next witness, like the last one,
7 cannot read and write.
8 MR. RYNEVELD: Exactly.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: So counsel has to lead her,
10 naming members of her family, if necessary, and even
11 her own name, if necessary.
12 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. That's what I intend to
13 do. Thank you.
14 [The witness entered court]
15 JUDGE MUMBA: The witness will make her
16 solemn declaration through the usher, please. May the
17 witness stand.
18 WITNESS: WITNESS 152
19 [Witness answered through interpreter]
20 JUDGE MUMBA: You read it to her, then the
21 interpreter will interpret, because she can't read.
22 MR. USHER: I solemnly declare [witness
23 repeats] that I will speak the truth [witness repeats]
24 the whole truth [witness repeats] and nothing but the
25 truth [witness repeats].
Page 1881
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you, Witness. Will you
2 please sit down.
3 MR. RYNEVELD: May I confirm that we are in
4 private session for the first few questions and
5 answers, please.
6 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We are indeed
7 in private session.
8 [Private session]
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
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24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 1882
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3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 [Open session]
23 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We are in
24 open session.
25 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.
Page 1883
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Page 1884
1 Q. Now, Witness, I'd like you to turn your mind
2 to about April of 1992. At that time, how old was your
3 daughter?
4 A. I don't know the dates.
5 Q. All right.
6 A. Nineteen.
7 Q. Your daughter was nineteen at the time. Is
8 that what you said?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Was she living at home?
11 A. She was.
12 Q. And was your daughter employed?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Where did she work?
15 A. In a footwear factory.
16 Q. Did that employment end at some point?
17 A. It did.
18 Q. Can you tell us how that came to an end?
19 A. Let me see. When the Chetniks attacked
20 Gorazde, then they stopped working. I don't know the
21 dates.
22 Q. All right. When Gorazde was attacked. Now,
23 you were in Miljevina; is that correct?
24 A. Yes. Yes, it is.
25 Q. Are you able to tell us how far Miljevina is
Page 1885
1 from Gorazde?
2 A. I'm not able to tell you that.
3 Q. All right. But the place where your daughter
4 was employed was not in Gorazde, was it?
5 A. In Miljevina.
6 Q. Yes. Can you tell us a bit more details
7 about how it was that your daughter's employment came
8 to an end and how you found out about that? Tell us
9 what she told you.
10 A. She told me, "Mummy, they won't let us
11 Muslims work any more. What are we going to do now?
12 We'll all die of hunger. They've turned back all the
13 Muslims. They won't let them go to work. The Chetniks
14 turned them back."
15 Q. Did she remain unemployed for a period of
16 time? Did she ever go back to work?
17 A. She did not. She never went back to work.
18 Q. Now, after this incident, was there a time
19 when people came to your village looking for the men,
20 and if so, can you tell us about that?
21 A. Yes. Draskovic Rade came and took all our
22 men from Miljevina.
23 Q. You mentioned this person by name. Did you
24 know him before he came looking for the men?
25 A. I did.
Page 1886
1 Q. How was it that you happened to know him?
2 A. Because he came to take my husband away.
3 Q. How did you know him before he came to take
4 your husband away? Was he a neighbour or was he a
5 friend or someone who was --
6 A. A neighbour. A neighbour. But he was in
7 Novo Naselje and we lived in the Staro Naselje, new and
8 old settlement.
9 Q. And the area where you lived in, was that a
10 Muslim settlement or was it mixed?
11 A. It was mixed: one Muslim, one Serb.
12 Q. And before --
13 A. In the building. Sorry.
14 Q. Before they came to take the men away, can
15 you tell us what relations were like between the
16 Muslims and Serbs in your community?
17 A. Before the war we lived just fine, and when
18 the war started, they knew what they did.
19 Q. Now, this Draskovic Rade that you referred
20 to, do you know whether he was a Muslim or a Serb?
21 A. A Chetnik.
22 Q. And by that, do you mean a Serb?
23 A. A Serb, and then a Chetnik.
24 Q. Do you know how he was dressed when he came?
25 A. He was armed to the teeth. He had a rifle
Page 1887
1 over his shoulder, he was carrying grenades, a stick.
2 That's what he had on him.
3 Q. And underneath all those weapons, what kind
4 of clothing? Could you tell?
5 A. A camouflage uniform was on him.
6 Q. Was he alone or was he in the company of
7 others?
8 A. There was another one with him, but I don't
9 know his name. He stood outside when they came to take
10 my husband.
11 Q. And did they in fact take your husband, or
12 did something else happen?
13 A. No. My husband was sick with fear, so he
14 didn't take him away; he left him alone.
15 Q. Did your husband have a medical condition
16 besides being sick with fear?
17 A. No, he wasn't ill, but when they came to take
18 my child away, he got so frightened, and this resulted
19 in his illness.
20 Q. We'll get to that in a moment. On the day
21 that they came for your husband, they did not take him
22 away; is that correct?
23 A. That is correct. They didn't take him away.
24 Q. Did they take any other men, to your
25 knowledge?
Page 1888
1 A. They did. They took Saban Aljukic, Nedzib
2 Aljukic, Saban Mazija, Atif Hambo, Osman Basic, Kasim
3 Mekic and some others, but I can't remember their
4 names.
5 Q. Do you know who took them?
6 A. Rade Draskovic took them.
7 Q. Do you know where they took them?
8 A. I don't know, but all trace of them was lost.
9 Q. Now, you told us moments ago that your
10 husband became ill on an incident when they came
11 looking for your daughter. When did that occur; do you
12 recall?
13 A. It was in the summer, but I don't know the
14 dates.
15 Q. And was your husband and your daughter at
16 home at the time?
17 A. Yes. We were in home, under house arrest,
18 for five months, and no one was allowed to go anywhere.
19 Q. How was that enforced?
20 A. We didn't dare go anywhere. They told us
21 that we shouldn't go anywhere.
22 Q. So while you were in this period of house
23 arrest, you say they came looking for your daughter.
24 Can you give us as much detail as possible about the
25 incident where they -- and I'll ask you to tell me who
Page 1889
1 "they" is -- came looking for your daughter.
2 A. They would come at night looking for my
3 daughter, unknown men, armed to the teeth.
4 Q. How did you know they were looking for your
5 daughter?
6 A. They asked me where my child was.
7 Q. Did you tell them? I'm sorry, did you hear
8 my question? Did you tell them where your daughter
9 was?
10 A. I don't know where she is. She's gone, I
11 said.
12 Q. No. I'm sorry.
13 A. I kept her in hiding.
14 Q. Thank you. You kept your daughter in hiding
15 at that time from these people that were looking for
16 her?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Don't tell us the name, but did they ask for
19 her by name or did they refer to her as "your
20 daughter"?
21 A. By name they asked for her.
22 Q. After being in house arrest for that period
23 of time, did you stay there or did you end up leaving
24 at some point?
25 A. We were there in the house, and they came
Page 1890
1 with buses and we all had to get in and we were taken
2 to the Partizan Hall in Foca.
3 Q. Did your whole family get on the buses?
4 A. It did.
5 Q. So just so that I'm clear, that was you and
6 your husband and your daughter and your two
7 grandchildren; you all got on the buses, did you?
8 A. We were all on the bus.
9 Q. Who told you to leave?
10 A. We were told by Drago Djevic.
11 Q. Was there anyone else with him?
12 A. I don't know. He came to our entrance and
13 told us to pack and that they were going to Gorazde,
14 but on the way there, we stopped at Partizan.
15 Q. All right. We'll get to that in a moment.
16 Did you have locks on your doors and keys to your
17 house?
18 A. I did, but they broke down the door. We had
19 a lock and a proper key.
20 Q. What did you do with the keys?
21 A. I handed the keys over.
22 Q. Why?
23 A. To Drago Djevic. He said he needed the keys
24 for a neighbour, to move him in, and I gave him my
25 keys.
Page 1891
1 Q. I'm going to ask you a few questions about
2 your trip to Partizan in a minute, but before I do
3 that, I want to get back to a time before you left your
4 home. Do you recall an occasion -- first of all, do
5 you know a Radovan Govedarica?
6 A. Yes, I do.
7 Q. And was he a friend or a neighbour
8 acquaintance of yours at this time?
9 A. Well, I don't know what he did. I don't know
10 what to say.
11 Q. Did you see him do something before you left
12 for Partizan?
13 A. I saw him with a dredger. The three men were
14 killed and they were taking them off, and they put some
15 branches over the dredger, and he was the driver of
16 that dredger.
17 Q. I'm sorry. You say that there were three men
18 killed. Can you give us a bit more detail about what
19 you saw?
20 A. I just saw some branches over them, through
21 the window, and Mileva told me that those people had
22 been killed and that they were taking them off. This
23 neighbour of mine, Mileva, told me.
24 Q. I see. This dredger, is it sort of like a
25 tractor with a blade on it or -- I don't know what a
Page 1892
1 dredger is. Tell us what a dredger is.
2 A. Yes. It's got that blade, that shovel blade
3 in front to dig the earth with.
4 Q. I see. Do you remember when it was that you
5 were taken --
6 A. Well, I don't know dates, but it was all in
7 these five months. That's when it was.
8 Q. I know that you are unable to assist us with
9 dates, but do you remember when this was in terms of
10 time or seasons when you were put on the buses and
11 taken via Partizan to Gorazde?
12 A. It was about midsummer thereabouts,
13 midsummer.
14 Q. And is this in 1992?
15 A. I don't know dates. The worst thing is that
16 I don't know dates.
17 Q. Was it still in the same year that war broke
18 out?
19 A. Yes, that same year. That's when it was.
20 Q. You've told us that you and your family
21 boarded the buses and went to Gorazde, but en route you
22 went as far as Partizan; is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And Partizan, that's the Partizan Sports Hall
25 in Foca; is that correct?
Page 1893
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Page 1894
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Can you tell us what happened when you got to
3 Partizan?
4 A. Well, we got to Partizan and all lined up,
5 and about an hour later Misko Crnogorac, the
6 Montenegrin, came and took my child away.
7 Q. When you were all lined up, what happened to
8 you and the others with you?
9 A. Well, they took gold. They took gold off us
10 and took money.
11 Q. Did you know any of the people who were
12 taking gold and money from you?
13 A. I don't know.
14 Q. The people that were doing the searching for
15 gold and money, can you tell us how they were dressed?
16 A. They were in uniform, military uniform.
17 Q. Do you know what kind of military uniform?
18 Are you able to say? Do you know anything about the
19 colours of uniforms?
20 A. Patterned, camouflaged.
21 Q. You referred to someone as a Montenegrin
22 moments ago. How could you tell that person was a
23 Montenegrin?
24 A. That's what they called him, Crnogorac.
25 Q. And that means Montenegrin, does it? I'm
Page 1895
1 sorry, I don't know your language.
2 A. Well, I don't know where he was from, but
3 that's what they called him. That was his nickname.
4 That's how they said. They said "Misko Crnogorac."
5 Q. All right. Did any of these people -- I'm
6 sorry. Do you know if there are different accents or
7 dialects for people from Foca, or Miljevina, or
8 Montenegro?
9 A. I don't know.
10 Q. Do you know a Gojko Jankovic?
11 A. I don't know.
12 Q. Now, you told us that you were lined up and
13 they took things from you, gold and money. Were you
14 personally searched?
15 A. They didn't search me. They took money from
16 my husband, but they didn't touch me or search me.
17 Q. You also, a few moments ago, referred to your
18 daughter. Can you tell us in some detail what happened
19 concerning her?
20 A. Yes, I can. Misko Crnogorac took (redacted) off to
21 Miljevina, to Karaman's House, and it was called a
22 brothel.
23 Q. To whose house was she taken?
24 A. Karaman's House in Miljevina.
25 Q. And how do you know that's where she was
Page 1896
1 taken?
2 A. A lady, [redacted], and her daughter
3 [redacted] told me.
4 MR. RYNEVELD: All right. I wonder if at
5 this point we should move into private session, and I'm
6 going to ask that the last sentence be entirely
7 redacted.
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. And even the previous one
9 because of the names. So those will be redacted. Can
10 we move into private session?
11 [Private session]
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 1897
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5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
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22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 [Open session]
25 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We are now in
Page 1898
1 open session.
2 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. I just want to
3 find my place here.
4 Q. Now, where was your daughter when they came
5 for her at Partizan? Was she standing beside you or
6 was she somewhere else?
7 A. I hid her behind my bag in Partizan.
8 Q. And again, please remember not to name her,
9 but --
10 A. I won't.
11 Q. -- exactly how was it that she was found and
12 taken, and can you describe for us the conversation, if
13 any, that took place when she was taken away?
14 A. He came and wanted my daughter to go back to
15 testify that there had been raped women in Miljevina.
16 Q. And did you have a conversation with him
17 about that?
18 A. I pleaded with him not to take my child away,
19 and he told me, "We'll give your child back," but he
20 never gave her back to me.
21 Q. Was she found?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And I think you've told us this person's name
24 before. Was she alone when she was found?
25 A. She was with a girl.
Page 1899
1 Q. And was she then taken away by this
2 individual?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Was the other girl taken away as well?
5 A. I don't know about that girl, when she was
6 taken away.
7 Q. Did you see how she was taken away?
8 A. He found her hiding behind my bag and he took
9 her by the hand.
10 Q. Was she put on a bus or in a car, or just led
11 away from your view, or what?
12 A. I don't know how he took her out. I didn't
13 see her anymore. I don't know how she was taken off.
14 Q. Just a few more questions, Witness. After
15 this incident where your daughter was taken away from
16 you from Partizan, I understand you continued on with
17 the bus of women towards Gorazde, did you?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Again, please don't mention a place, please
20 do not mention a name, but when did you hear from your
21 daughter next? How long after she was led away did you
22 hear from her again?
23 A. Nine months.
24 Q. Again, do not mention a name and do not
25 mention a place, but when you spoke to her, was it in
Page 1900
1 person or on the telephone?
2 A. On the telephone.
3 Q. And did she tell you where she was taken?
4 A. She didn't want to tell me anything, not to
5 worry me.
6 Q. Did she tell you what had happened to her
7 during those nine months?
8 A. She didn't want to tell me anything about
9 that. She just said, "Don't ask me anything about it,"
10 and that she was -- she was very ill, and I didn't want
11 to ask her anything.
12 Q. Did you find out from other people what had
13 happened to your daughter during those nine months?
14 A. Nobody wanted to tell me anything, but I was
15 conscious of everything. I know what happened to her.
16 I'm quite aware of what happened to her.
17 Q. Were you told by someone what happened to
18 her?
19 A. Nobody told me.
20 Q. Again, do not mention a name, do not mention
21 a place. You have subsequently spoken to your daughter
22 in person; is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did she tell you at that time what had
25 happened to her?
Page 1901
1 A. No, she didn't tell me anything.
2 MR. RYNEVELD: I believe I may have one
3 question. May I just consult?
4 [Prosecution counsel confer]
5 MR. RYNEVELD:
6 Q. Do not mention a name, do not mention a
7 place, but how long after 1992, that is, the year that
8 the war started, did you next see your daughter in
9 person?
10 A. I saw her two years after she was taken
11 away. When she came to Montenegro, then I talked to
12 her.
13 Q. How did she appear to you?
14 A. Skinny, ill.
15 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. Those are my
16 questions.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Any cross-examination?
18 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] No
19 questions, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar?
21 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] No questions,
22 Your Honours.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Jovanovic?
24 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no
25 questions either, Your Honours.
Page 1902
1 JUDGE MUMBA: As there has been no
2 cross-examination, there can't be re-examination.
3 Thank you very much, Witness, for coming and
4 giving us the evidence. You are now free. You can
5 go.
6 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour. I
7 note the time. I don't propose to start any new
8 witnesses today, unless you wish me to.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: No. We have reached our time
10 for closing our proceedings for today. We will
11 continue tomorrow at 0930 hours. The Court will rise.
12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
13 at 4 p.m., to be reconvened on
14 Thursday, the 6th day of April, 2000,
15 at 9.30 a.m.
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