Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1903

1 Thursday, 6 April 2000

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: May the registrar please call

6 the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Case

8 IT-96-23-T, IT-96-23/1-T, the Prosecutor versus

9 Dragoljub Kunarac, Radomir Kovac, and Zoran.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Prosecution, please.

11 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, Madam President and Your

12 Honours. There are a few matters we thought might be

13 appropriately dealt with at this point. I can tell you

14 that it is our intention to call Mr. Brett Simpson, who

15 was one of the investigators who did the interviews

16 with the accused Kunarac. Before I get into that

17 issue, however, my colleague, Ms. Kuo, who has had

18 conduct of the -- of a previous witness, has an issue

19 concerning the cross-examination and Rule 96, and

20 perhaps she might address the Chamber on that issue at

21 this point, if you would care to hear about that now.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

23 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

24 MS. KUO: Your Honours, this issue is

25 prompted by the cross-examination of Witness 87

Page 1904

1 yesterday by Mr. Kolesar, in which he asked Witness 87

2 questions regarding a letter that was allegedly sent

3 and signed with a heart. At the moment there is

4 nothing about that letter actually in evidence because

5 the witness simply denied any knowledge of it, but we

6 are concerned, if this question is to be raised in the

7 future, that the Rule 96(3) be observed, and that

8 states that any evidence of consent, and that appears

9 to be what the Defence is alleging here, be presented

10 to the Court in camera before it is entered in evidence

11 and the Court find that it is relevant and credible.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. I'm waiting for the

13 interpretation to be completed.

14 Yes. Mr. Kolesar, you understood the

15 concerns of the Prosecution regarding the procedure in

16 these cases and in Rule 96. I'm not expecting you to

17 say anything if you don't wish to. I just want to make

18 it clear to you that the Prosecution have raised these

19 concern regarding the matter they've talked about.

20 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

21 within the framework of the cross-examination, I did

22 put this question to the witness, and as I received a

23 negative response, I thought there was no need for me

24 to investigate any further. So regardless of Rule 96,

25 I see no reason for concern by the Prosecution.

Page 1905

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you very much,

2 Mr. Kolesar. Yes, we'll proceed.

3 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Before I call the next witness, I should perhaps

5 indicate to the Court what our intention is with

6 respect to the calling of the evidence concerning the

7 statements. Part of it is a matter of timing. We

8 didn't want any witnesses from other countries here

9 prior to the break, so we thought that this was the

10 most appropriate time to play the videos.

11 I can tell you that there are some five

12 videotapes, copies of which have been distributed to

13 Defence counsel. They are five videotapes which deal

14 with the first interview which took place on the

15 13th of March, 1988 [sic], and then -- did I say

16 1988? 1998. Slip of the tongue -- and the remaining

17 four videotapes deal with the second interview taken a

18 year and a month later. That would be April 23rd and

19 24th of 1999.

20 Having said all of that, there are about

21 18 hours worth of tapes. Needless to say, it is not my

22 intention to play all 18 hours worth of tapes. That

23 would take well in excess of a full court week.

24 So what the proposal is is that I'm going to,

25 with the Court's consent -- we have excerpted

Page 1906

1 highlights of those statements which would take about

2 three and a half hours of playing time. In other

3 words, we can manage to accomplish that, I think, in

4 about one court day. There will be transcripts.

5 As you know, all the tapes and all the

6 transcripts are in evidence, so that is the complete

7 evidence. In other words, my friends and the Chamber

8 have the entire conversations. But whether you want me

9 to go through the process of playing all 18 hours and

10 watching the transcript, that might be not an effective

11 use of time and it might, in some instances, be of a

12 bit of a mind-numbing exercise. So I thought we would

13 do it this way.

14 The Defence, of course, can, on

15 cross-examination, highlight any portions of the tape

16 that they wish.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

18 MR. RYNEVELD: That brings us to the next

19 issue, and that is redaction. There are in these tapes

20 some names mentioned, and my friend, Mr. Prodanovic,

21 who is largely concerned, because of course it's his

22 client, has indicated that he would be bringing on an

23 application this morning -- he told me that at close of

24 business yesterday -- that these tapes be played, as I

25 understand it, either in closed or private session. I

Page 1907

1 will let him raise that issue.

2 My understanding is that the purpose of his

3 application is that in these tapes, names of some

4 witnesses that they may wish to call, he may be wanting

5 to bring on protective-measure application for those

6 people. I'll let him make his application.

7 I can tell you, however, that with respect to

8 the March 13th, 1998 interview, the first of the tapes

9 that we will be playing, we have redacted the names of

10 the presently protected witnesses; in other words, the

11 name will be cut out.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: That is the Prosecution

13 witness.

14 MR. RYNEVELD: That is the Prosecution

15 witness. And to my understanding, the only name that

16 my friend might be concerned about named in that

17 interview is an individual who is no longer alive.

18 When we get to the April interviews, there

19 are indeed -- at this point, Mr. Kunarac is naming

20 names. In the first statement he's careful not to name

21 names and says he doesn't want to name names and is

22 quite judicious in not doing so.

23 So I'll let my friend raise this issue, but I

24 thought I'd give you the big picture about the two

25 different statements and the two different concerns and

Page 1908

1 how we might meet those, but I shouldn't presuppose

2 what it is my friend wants.

3 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Ryneveld, you did say that

4 the transcripts were in evidence. This may be a slip

5 of the tongue but, so far as I know, they haven't been

6 tendered, have they? They are in the books and they

7 are called an exhibit in the rather curious fashion

8 that's followed here, but they are not, as I understand

9 it, in evidence.

10 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honour is absolutely

11 right. What I ought to do is when I commence these

12 proceedings, is to make an application, with my

13 friend's consent, that the items that have been

14 pre-marked as intended exhibits go in by consent both

15 in terms of the tapes and in terms of the transcript in

16 their entirety, and that for the purpose of this

17 exercise, we are highlighting portions of the evidence

18 in accordance with what I understood the Chamber asked

19 us to do during a Pre-Trial Conference whereby we were

20 asked to highlight portions of evidence to which we

21 wished to draw your attention. This is in compliance

22 with that direction.

23 [Trial Chamber deliberates]

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. After our deliberations,

25 we are of the view that there is no need for the Trial

Page 1909

1 Chamber to view the tapes during the proceedings or

2 indeed to go through the transcripts during the

3 proceedings. We have got the tapes and the

4 transcripts, and if the Defence will consent to have

5 them produced or whatever they will say if the Trial

6 Chamber rules that they will be produced into evidence,

7 then that's okay, we can deal with them at our own

8 time, we can deal with the documentation at our own

9 time.

10 Of course, the Defence will be given an

11 opportunity to express their views and deal with

12 potential witnesses. That will be a matter for them.

13 But for us, we are not interested in viewing the tapes

14 during the proceedings, going through the details.

15 The Prosecution may call their witness simply

16 to deal with the formalities that this happened on

17 such-and-such a date and that sort of thing, not

18 highlighting even in the tapes. That would take too

19 much time when, in fact, we shall have them.

20 MR. RYNEVELD: I understand. Just so I'm

21 clear about what you're saying, you wish me to call the

22 witness, go through some of the formalities of actually

23 entering the tapes and the transcript into evidence

24 should that be permitted. You do then not wish me to

25 call the witness's attention to the highlighted

Page 1910

1 portions of the evidence? You're not asking for that?

2 JUDGE MUMBA: No. He can describe without

3 viewing the tape, because he will say video number

4 so-and-so was taken during such-and-such a time. In

5 that videotape, this and that is shown or depicted.

6 MR. RYNEVELD: All right.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: That sort of description.

8 MR. RYNEVELD: I might just give the Court an

9 indication, however, that in terms of the scheduling of

10 witnesses, this will take considerably less time, and

11 I'm not sure we have any other witnesses in the wings.

12 So as long as you're aware that although this is an

13 extremely -- I think obviously it's welcome news.

14 Nevertheless, I want the Court to be aware that we had

15 anticipated that we would take all day with this

16 witness. We can probably do this in one session.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: The Court is very much aware of

18 that.

19 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: In fact, the Judges are

21 overloaded with work in other Trial Chambers, as you

22 know.

23 MR. RYNEVELD: Oh, I do. I just didn't want

24 to get your wrath by saying, "I'm sorry, I'm out of

25 witnesses for today."

Page 1911

1 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no, no. We got the list

2 and we are aware of that. We are fully conscious of

3 what is going to transpire. We are fully conscious of

4 our duty to get the relevant evidence for these

5 proceedings.

6 Now I'll turn to the Defence. The Defence

7 have understood what the Prosecution have said, and I

8 do hope they have understood what the Bench has said.

9 We have said that we have no interest, at this time, to

10 view all the tapes during these proceedings, because if

11 you consent or if we rule, these tapes will be in our

12 custody, together with the transcripts. We will be

13 able to view them during our time. We will be able to

14 follow the transcripts during our time.

15 Now, I'm turning to you, the Defence

16 counsels. You have heard what the Prosecution has

17 said. You have the tapes. You have the transcripts.

18 Now, I'd like to find out from you whether you have any

19 objection to have these tapes and their transcripts

20 produced into evidence.

21 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

22 I believe that is the best solution that you have

23 suggested. We are not opposed to the tapes being

24 entered into evidence, especially as the accused

25 Kunarac does intend to testify in his own defence in

Page 1912

1 this case.

2 So that I agree that it would be absolutely

3 redundant to view all this when we will be hearing the

4 accused as a witness. In that situation, the Defence

5 will have an opportunity put questions to the accused

6 or witness.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The other point, before

8 we actually number them formally, is that when it comes

9 to your turn to cross-examine, you are free to

10 cross-examine the witness who introduced these tapes

11 fully. I take it you have viewed the tapes. You can

12 raise any issues you wish to raise in cross-examination

13 of the Prosecution witnesses.

14 So your cross-examination will not be

15 limited. If you want to view any parts, highlight

16 them, it's up to you. We can continue with this

17 witness the next sitting time. So I want you to

18 understand that fully.

19 Now I'll turn to the registrar. With the

20 assistance of the Prosecution, they know which tapes,

21 which numbers, so to assist the registrar.

22 MR. RYNEVELD: My understanding, Your Honour,

23 is that the transcript of the March 13, 1998 interview

24 has been pre-marked as Exhibit 67, and the videotape

25 that goes with it has been pre-marked as number 68.

Page 1913

1 The next day, which is a month and a year

2 later, is the April 22nd interview, April 22nd, 1999

3 interview. The transcript is number 69, and the video

4 is number 70. They go in -- transcripts are the odd

5 numbers and the videos are the even numbers.

6 So that then brings us to the following day's

7 interview, the 23rd of April, 1999, the transcript 71,

8 the video 72.

9 That is my understanding of the pre-marked

10 numbers of the evidence which we would be putting into

11 evidence.

12 Now, although item number -- I'm sorry. The

13 video 68 is one tape and the video 70 and 72 comprise

14 four tapes.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: So there are four segments in

16 that exhibit.

17 MR. RYNEVELD: In those exhibits. That's

18 correct, yes.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay.

20 MR. RYNEVELD: So there's a total of five

21 tapes.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: So may we have numbers formally

23 from the registrar?

24 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] First of all,

25 I have to check with you, and that is whether the video

Page 1914

1 cassette numbered V001314, does it indeed correspond to

2 the video dated the 13th of March, 1998? Because I

3 don't have a number on that video cassette.

4 MR. RYNEVELD: I cannot speak from personal

5 knowledge, but our case manager is nodding and assuring

6 me that's so.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

8 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Very well.

9 Thank you. In that case, the transcript of the video

10 of the 13th of March, 1998 will have the number 67,

11 Prosecution Exhibit. The tape of the 13th of March,

12 1998 will be Prosecution Exhibit 68.

13 The transcript of the video of the 22nd of

14 April, 1999 will be Prosecution Exhibit 69. As for the

15 tapes of the 22nd of April, 1999, there are three

16 tapes. Therefore, I suggest that we give the first

17 tape number 70/1; the second 70/2, Prosecution Exhibit;

18 and the third tape 70/3 Prosecution Exhibit.

19 The transcript of the interview of the 23rd

20 of April, 1999 will be Prosecution Exhibit 71, and the

21 videotape of the 23rd of April, 1999 will be

22 Prosecution Exhibit 72.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you, Madam Registrar. I

24 would like to confirm with the Defence counsel again

25 whether he has understood the numbering of the exhibits

Page 1915

1 and that he has got all these exhibits.

2 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

3 Honour, we do have all these exhibits which have just

4 been mentioned.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Before I forget, I

6 wanted to find out from you, Mr. Prodanovic, there was

7 an expression by the Prosecution of your concerns

8 regarding maybe some names mentioned in the tapes, that

9 they may be witnesses for the Defence and maybe at the

10 time you may wish to have protective measures, and

11 maybe you would like, at this stage, to put it in

12 writing what the names of these witnesses are so that

13 the protective measures can be dealt with before we

14 even start viewing the tapes.

15 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

16 I'm afraid I wasn't correctly understood by the

17 Prosecution when we had our conversation yesterday. I

18 wish to tell you that my client came here voluntarily,

19 which created animosity in the environment from which

20 he came, and he mentioned certain events and names

21 linked to those events. In Foca there is a sealed

22 indictment in addition to this public indictment, (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1916

1 (redacted). And in accordance with Rule 69, had the

2 interview been public -- 79, I'm sorry -- we would have

3 suggested a closed session for the hearing of those

4 tapes.

5 [Trial Chamber deliberates]

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Prodanovic, we have

7 deliberated on your concerns and would like to give a

8 few guidelines. When writing a judgement, it is

9 necessary to mention people mentioned by the witnesses,

10 the accused, if they give evidence, and things like

11 that, and persons who may be in the tapes. So if the

12 protective measures are not given now, we may not know

13 how to deal with that. It's may lead to identification

14 of people who should be protected.

15 So what you should do is to work out through

16 those tapes -- you work out a document for each step,

17 the materials you would like to have redacted, the

18 names you'd like to have redacted, and file it. That

19 way, the Prosecution, the Bench, will take care of that

20 information.

21 We know that you may not call those people in

22 the end. You may change your mind. That's not a

23 problem. What we want is to protect them now so that

24 even when we're viewing, we know that this information

25 is under seal, this name should be redacted, and

Page 1917

1 everybody will be careful, and identifying features,

2 identifying captions, names, will not be revealed to

3 the public.

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Prodanovic, as I understand

6 it, your concern is also that you do not want revealed

7 the names of persons your client may have mentioned in

8 the second interview because, as you put it, a threat

9 may be made to his family that he has identified these

10 people in perhaps criminal circumstances. Is that what

11 you're concerned with, as well as the names of your own

12 witnesses?

13 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] My main

14 concern, exclusive concern, is the fact that he

15 mentioned certain names, and in giving descriptions of

16 certain events, I fear that certain persons who were

17 involved and whom he didn't dare mention might

18 recognise themselves as being involved, which would

19 create a situation that his family might be endangered,

20 especially, as I said, that his voluntary surrender

21 here created a great deal of animosity and disapproval

22 in the environment against his voluntary surrender.

23 JUDGE HUNT: It would probably be very

24 unlikely that it would be necessary in the judgement to

25 refer to that fact, except in the event that if he is

Page 1918

1 convicted, it may be taken into account by you in

2 mitigation. But I think that that probably is not

3 quite so difficult as we may have anticipated from what

4 you said earlier. So we're not concerned about the

5 names of your witnesses, we're concerned only with the

6 fact that your client has named people and he does not

7 want the identity of those persons he's named made

8 public.

9 I still think it might be worthwhile if you

10 would file the document that the Presiding Judge has

11 suggested, pointing out those passages about which you

12 have concern so that there is a record of it, and if

13 there is any need for reference to those passages in

14 the judgement, then we know not to identify persons by

15 events or names in the way in which you suggest.

16 So if I may put it on behalf of the Presiding

17 Judge, you should still file that document, but we now

18 understand, at least I understand, the purpose for

19 which you want it.

20 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

21 Your Honour. I think that is the best solution and the

22 Defence will act as advised by you.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

24 MR. RYNEVELD: I don't wish to unduly prolong

25 this discussion, I should just indicate that from my

Page 1919

1 reading of those statements, the list should be

2 relatively short, because Mr. Kunarac was very careful

3 to indicate when he didn't want to name names and the

4 reasons why he didn't want to name names. So he was on

5 his guard, as it were, with respect to those issues,

6 and that will become obvious. So I think that the list

7 of names is very short.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Let Mr. Prodanovic do what

9 he thinks is necessary for his defence. The Trial

10 Chamber will make a decision.

11 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.

12 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The registrar

13 would like to draw the attention of the Chamber that

14 this tape was admitted in open session, so it is part

15 of the public regard, and if there is any problem

16 regarding confidentiality, perhaps it would be a good

17 idea to admit these tapes under seal and for the

18 Registry to wait for a ruling of the Chamber to lift

19 the seal from these tapes.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, yes. Thank you very much,

21 Madam Registrar. That should be the procedure,

22 actually. The tapes, the transcripts under seal. When

23 we get the filing from Mr. Prodanovic, we may change

24 the rule, we may not.

25 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Thank you

Page 1920

1 very much, Madam President.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Perhaps before the Prosecution

3 calls their witness, I wanted to clear with the defence

4 the calling of Witness DB. The documents were given to

5 the defence earlier on, and I did indicate that I would

6 like to know their views as to when they think they

7 will be ready for Witness DB before the end of today.

8 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

9 we were going to raise this question because our

10 deadline was today. Of course, we have no objection to

11 the Witness DB appearing here in court. Mr. Kunarac

12 himself said that in his interview. And we leave it up

13 to the Prosecution and the Chamber to decide whether

14 that is appropriate or not, but for our part, we have

15 no objection either that she be called in 15 days or in

16 a month's time. I'm saying this exclusively as Defence

17 counsel for Mr. Kunarac. I don't know to what extent

18 that witness is of interest to my learned colleagues on

19 this side. It is up to them to state their views.

20 Therefore, I'm speaking only with respect to the

21 accused Kunarac.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you, Mr. Prodanovic.

23 Mr. Kolesar.

24 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

25 according to the materials at the disposal of the Kovac

Page 1921

1 defence, this witness is of no interest to our client,

2 nor has she said anything of relevance so far linked to

3 our defence. So I quite agree with the proposal by my

4 learned friend Prodanovic.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Mr. Jovanovic,

6 Witness DB.

7 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

8 I too fully agree with the positions taken by my

9 colleagues Prodanovic and Kolesar, especially as

10 regards the Kovac defence, and we are quite ready, when

11 the Chamber and the Prosecution so decides, to hear

12 that witness. Thank you.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: The Prosecution, I take it,

14 have understood?

15 MR. RYNEVELD: Indeed.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: And they will call Witness DB

17 accordingly.

18 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: We may now proceed.

20 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. We would call

21 Brett Simpson.

22 Now, just before I actually do that, do you

23 wish me to ask questions of him without seeing the

24 video about certain contents of the video or just put

25 the formalities of entering the documents into

Page 1922

1 evidence? I know they've been formally entered, but

2 some of the background, because my original intention

3 and what he may be expecting is that I ask extensive

4 questions throughout all three of these tapes. And I'm

5 not quite sure if I understand what guidance it is that

6 you're seeking from the witness with respect to the

7 tapes today.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I understand your

9 concern. You can ask the questions -- you go with your

10 questions tape by tape. I hope that the witness will

11 be able to remember what is in a particular tape and to

12 be able to simply describe and to simply state briefly

13 whoever he interviewed appeared to be saying.

14 MR. RYNEVELD: So you would like us to

15 briefly give you capsule highlights of what is in the

16 tape.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

18 MR. RYNEVELD: You do want me to go through

19 that exercise.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Without viewing the

21 tapes.

22 MR. RYNEVELD: I think I now understand what

23 you want. Thank you.

24 [The witness entered court]

25 WITNESS: BRETT SIMPSON

Page 1923

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Please make your solemn

2 declaration, witness.

3 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

4 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

5 truth.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Please be seated.

7 Examined by Mr. Ryneveld:

8 Q. Mr. Simpson, I understand you are at present

9 a team leader for one of the investigative teams here

10 at the International Criminal Tribunal for the former

11 Yugoslavia; is that correct?

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. And as such, sir, you were in charge of a

14 number of investigators related, among other things, to

15 the investigation of the Foca files; is that correct?

16 A. That's correct.

17 Q. Sir, prior to your coming to the ICTY, do I

18 understand correctly that you were a member of the

19 Auckland, New Zealand police?

20 A. Yes. I'm still a serving member of the New

21 Zealand police, with 23 years experience.

22 Q. And --

23 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please

24 make pauses between answer and question because of

25 interpretation. Thank you.

Page 1924

1 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you for reminding me.

2 I'll go slower.

3 Q. I'm sorry. I introduced you as Brett

4 Simpson. Perhaps you could state your full name?

5 A. Yes. My full name is Brett Gerard Simpson.

6 Q. I interrupted you at the point where you were

7 about to give us some of your background with the

8 Auckland, New Zealand police?

9 A. Yes. I've been a member of the New Zealand

10 police for 23 years. I still am. I arrived at the

11 Tribunal as an investigator in October 1997. In

12 January 1999, I got the position as team leader of the

13 team that I'm on currently, team 8.

14 Q. Thank you. Now, sir, I should tell you,

15 before we proceed, that we have adopted a slightly

16 different game plan than you and I had initially

17 assumed would be the case. We are not going to be

18 watching any videotapes today. What I will be doing,

19 however, is to ask you some questions and ask that you

20 can perhaps assist us by referring to portions of the

21 transcript and give a capsule comment or agree with a

22 capsule comment that I might suggest to you in terms of

23 what is contained between certain areas of footage for

24 the guidance of the Court when the Court, at a later

25 date, watches the videos. You appreciate what I'm

Page 1925

1 saying?

2 A. Yes, I understand.

3 Q. All right. Now, I understand, sir, that what

4 we have before us today are transcripts and videotapes

5 of two interviews, the first of which was on the 13th

6 of March, 1998, and the second two transcripts for each

7 of the days of the 22nd and 23rd of April, 1999; is

8 that correct?

9 A. That's correct.

10 Q. What I'm going to ask you to do first now,

11 sir, is turn your mind to the interview of the 13th of

12 March, 1998, if you would, please. Perhaps you could

13 give us some background there in terms of -- you've

14 told us, I believe, that you were then an investigator

15 with the ICTY; is that correct?

16 A. Yes, I was. I was asked to do an interview

17 with Mr. Kunarac on that date, to carry out an

18 interview.

19 Q. All right. And did you, in fact, carry out

20 that interview somewhere on the premises at the ICTY or

21 at another location?

22 A. At another location.

23 Q. And where was that?

24 A. At the detention unit.

25 Q. All right. And I take it that the

Page 1926

1 appropriate video equipment and recording devices were

2 already there; is that correct?

3 A. Yes. There was a portable video recording

4 unit there, and we used that.

5 Q. All right. And can you tell us, sir, who was

6 present during that interview?

7 A. For the duration of the interview, those

8 present were myself, Mr. Kunarac himself, his lawyer,

9 Mr. Pantelic; the interpreter, Mr. Philipovic; and legal

10 officers, Patricia Sellers and Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

11 Q. My co-counsel?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. So we have all these people in a room with

14 Mr. Kunarac at the detention centre?

15 A. Yes, six in total.

16 Q. All right. I've asked you to bring with you

17 a copy of the transcript of the March 13th, 1998

18 interview. Do I understand correctly, sir, that in

19 addition to this video recording, there was also an

20 audio recording going at the same time?

21 A. Yes. It's a simultaneous video and audio

22 recording.

23 Q. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but as I

24 understand it, there is an audio tape made on a

25 separate cassette which is then transcribed into a

Page 1927

1 transcript; is that correct?

2 A. That's right. An audio-only tape is made

3 from the video and it is the audio tape that is used

4 for the purposes of transcription.

5 Q. Just so that we're clear, when we're looking

6 at the transcript, Exhibit 67, if you would, would you

7 turn with me to the transcript of Exhibit 67, which is

8 the 13th of March, 1998. You will see it says

9 "Dragolub Kunarac interview, 13 March 1998, tape 1,

10 side A". Now, are we talking there about the videotape

11 or the audio tape that is created from the simultaneous

12 recording?

13 A. We're talking about the audio tape that's

14 created.

15 Q. I see. So if at some point during the

16 transcript of those proceedings we seem to switch to

17 another tape, we're talking switching the audio tape,

18 not the videotape; is that correct?

19 A. That's right. As I understand it, there

20 might have been four audiotapes produced from the one

21 videotape.

22 Q. I understand. Now, on the bottom right-hand

23 corner of each of these pages in the document, we see,

24 I suppose, what they call in computer language a

25 footer, and it starts with "t:\team06", et cetera, and

Page 1928

1 then the last words are "tape1a.doc". Do you see that?

2 Is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And if you flip through this document, you

5 will see that it refers to different tape numbers such

6 as "tape1b.doc" and "tape2a. doc,", et cetera.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Those don't refer to videotapes, they refer

9 to the audiotapes from which this transcript is

10 created; is that correct?

11 A. Yes, that's right.

12 Q. All right. Now, sir, having got the

13 technical questions out of the way, you've told us who

14 was present. Can you tell us, sir, where in this -- in

15 this transcript, I understand that there was a process,

16 starting at page 1 through to page 1 of tape1a.doc,

17 which outlines who the people who were present during

18 the course of this interview; is that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And you've already told us who they were?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. On page 2 of this document, did you explain

23 to the accused, Mr. Kunarac, why it was that he was

24 being interviewed, sir?

25 A. Can you refer me to that page again, sir?

Page 1929

1 Q. All right. Perhaps I should ask you to look

2 to page 3. I'm sorry. I said page 2. Page 3, about

3 halfway through the page. I believe it says -- you ask

4 him if he's willing to participate in an interview?

5 A. Yes, I asked him that question. Mr. Kunarac

6 replied, "It is also my wish and this is a wish I had

7 all along to have this interview, but because I did not

8 know the procedure, we have not done this earlier."

9 That was his response.

10 Q. I see. Now, sir, did you, in fact, inform

11 him of his various rights during the course of the

12 interview, and I might refer you to the top of page 4

13 of that document, under tape1a.doc. The reason, just

14 for the Court's information, unfortunately the

15 numbering changes, so you get more than page 1, more

16 than one page 2 when the tape changes. That's why I

17 have to refer the page number to the tape1a.doc or

18 1b.doc.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, that is understood because

20 machines are not human beings. They can't change

21 according to the circumstances. Thank you.

22 MR. RYNEVELD:

23 Q. So on the first page 4, if I may call it

24 that, did you indicate to him what his rights were?

25 A. Yes, I did, bearing in mind that we'd

Page 1930

1 previously discussed the presence of his counsel and

2 the interpreter. At the top of page 4, the portion

3 you're referring to, Mr. Kunarac acknowledged and he

4 states: "I was also told, I was also informed that at

5 any point I can stop at any question and turn to my

6 counsel and ask his legal advice," and at that point

7 the taping will stop until we consult."

8 I can also refer you, sir, back to page 2.

9 Q. Yes.

10 A. Where towards the bottom of the page I

11 formally give him his rights in which I say, "You do

12 not have to say anything or answer my questions unless

13 you do so. Anything that you say will be recorded and

14 could be used in evidence against you in a later

15 Tribunal proceeding, including a trial. Do you

16 understand that?" Mr. Kunarac responded: "Yes, I do,

17 but I can also use any portion of this interview during

18 the proceedings if it's in my interest." And I told

19 him, yes, and the fact that he and his counsel would be

20 supplied with a copy of the tape, and he was happy with

21 that.

22 Q. He understood, I take it, that if at any

23 point he wanted to terminate the interview, he could do

24 so?

25 A. Yes. That was my understanding.

Page 1931

1 Q. All right. And from his responses -- I don't

2 need you necessarily to refer to the transcript -- were

3 you satisfied that he understood the purpose of being

4 there, that he understood his rights, that he had his

5 lawyer there and was fully aware of proceedings?

6 A. Definitely.

7 Q. Thank you. Now, if you could turn with me to

8 page 7 under tape1a.doc. Did you ask any questions of

9 Mr. Kunarac about where he resided prior to the war?

10 A. Yes. In response to a question where I put

11 it to him that at some stage in his life he moved to

12 Montenegro. He replied: "Before the outbreak of war

13 in the former Yugoslavia, I lived in Montenegro and I

14 was a citizen of Socialist Federal Republic of

15 Yugoslavia, and I lived in Tivat with my wife and, at

16 that time, my eldest daughter."

17 Over the next two pages he elaborated on his

18 movements between the years 1984 up until the time of

19 the conflict, and much of that is recorded on page 8.

20 Q. On page 8. Before we turn to page 8, at the

21 bottom of page 7, where Mr. Kunarac is being quoted,

22 did he indicate to you then when he returned to Foca?

23 A. Yes. In answer to my question, he said: "I

24 returned to Foca during the war, for the first time on

25 27 May, 1992. I learned that on the 26th, my father

Page 1932

1 was wounded." And he carried on.

2 Q. Now, sir, you brought us to page 8 of tape1a,

3 and I understood, sir, that it was originally our

4 intension to start playing the tape at the very bottom

5 of that page where you ask a question concerning the

6 accused Dragolub Kunarac's nickname.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. That portion, sir, would it be fair to say

9 that from page 8 through to page -- excuse me, I have

10 to count the pages -- well, to page 14 which is the end

11 of the first tape, and then starting at the second page

12 1 of tape1b through to about halfway to page 2 of

13 tape1b, Mr. Kunarac told you about such things as what

14 his nickname was. He discussed his role as a commander

15 of a special unit, what his unit was, where his

16 headquarters were, and gave you some details about

17 Ulica Osmana Djikica 16, the house near the mosque in

18 Foca.

19 Is that a fair summary or is there something

20 you might wish to elaborate on in that area?

21 A. That's a fair summary.

22 Q. So that for the Court's benefit, I don't know

23 whether the counters that you will have would assist.

24 We had originally intended to start playing at 10:50:38

25 and stopping at 11:18:06. I don't know if that is of

Page 1933

1 assistance to you or not?

2 JUDGE MUMBA: It is, counsel.

3 MR. RYNEVELD: Sometimes the counters from

4 machine to machine differ somewhat too, but that's a

5 guideline since you've asked us to highlight.

6 Q. Now, sir, turning with me I'm going to skip

7 to page 4 of tape1b, which is the second page 4 in this

8 document. Was there a discussion with Mr. Kunarac

9 about fighting in the vicinity of Foca?

10 A. He refers to activity which occurred in the

11 village of Suba and his account of that is contained at

12 the bottom of page 4 in a reasonably lengthy dialogue

13 there or what he is saying about it.

14 Q. If you were to describe the effect of that

15 dialogue, did it have any bearing of any interest to

16 you on the issue of ethnic cleansing?

17 A. It certainly referred to what could be

18 described as ethnic cleansing, although in fairness to

19 Mr. Kunarac, clearly he was putting, you know, a

20 different interpretation on it.

21 Q. Yes. So that would be that portion of his

22 answer at the bottom of the second page 4, tape1b?

23 A. That's right.

24 Q. Now, just for clarification, sir, during the

25 course of this interview I understand that at some

Page 1934

1 points Mr. Kunarac had a copy of an indictment with him

2 and actually referred to certain paragraph numbers in

3 the indictment; is that correct?

4 A. Yes, he did. I can't recall if he actually

5 had possession of it or his counsel, but I'm reasonably

6 sure that one or other of them had it, yes.

7 Q. And if on the videotape he's seen to have a

8 copy of the indictment in his hand, that would be of

9 assistance to be able to answer that question I take

10 it?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Yes. Which version of the indictment was

13 then available to you and to Mr. Kunarac as of the 13th

14 of March, 1998? Was that the original indictment?

15 A. Yes, I understood it was the original

16 indictment, yes.

17 Q. Are you aware, sir, that a subsequent

18 indictment has been filed in which paragraph numbers

19 have changed?

20 A. Yes. I'm aware of that.

21 Q. So where, for example -- I'm going to suggest

22 this for the benefit of the Court and the witness --

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

24 MR. RYNEVELD: I may be here giving evidence,

25 but for the assistance of the Court, my understanding

Page 1935

1 is that where the witness -- where the accused makes

2 reference to the indictment, where he talks about

3 paragraph 9.21, that is now paragraph 7.1 in the

4 existing indictment upon which he is now charged.

5 Similarly, where he makes reference to 9.10,

6 and this is the accused himself and his response

7 referring to that paragraph, my understanding is that

8 that is now contained in Count 5.3 of the current

9 indictment upon which he is facing charges. So 9.21 is

10 7.1. 9.10 is 5.3.

11 Q. Now, sir, if you could turn with me now to

12 page 5 of tape1b. Do I understand correctly that --

13 and I'm referring now to the area right where there is

14 a caption which there is an exchange between

15 Mr. Kunarac and Mr. Pantelic. In other words, he is

16 consulting with his counsel, is that correct, at that

17 point?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. I had intended, with your assistance, to play

20 starting at that point on page 5 through page 6, 7, 8,

21 9, 10, and 11, to the end of tape1b. That's the audio

22 tape. And continuing on tape 2, side a, on the new --

23 so the third page 1, 2, 3, all the way to page 10.

24 So if we're using the counters, we would

25 start on that tape at 11:30:51, and concluding at the

Page 1936

1 bottom of page 10 at 12:38:07. That's what you had

2 intended to play for us?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. I know this might be a bit a challenge to ask

5 you this question in the sense that you're not now

6 being assisted by the videotape, but in that portion of

7 tape to which we were wanting to draw the court's

8 attention, is it fair to say that that portion of tape

9 covers your discussion with him about what occurred at

10 Partizan, Ulica Osmana Djikica 16, that was the house

11 near the mosque, his encounter with an individual

12 referred to in these proceedings as DB, but referred by

13 him by her full first name, and the general topic of

14 women being in detention? Is that fair to say, that

15 that whole portion deals with discussions of those

16 nature?

17 A. Yes. That's a general summary of what's

18 contend in these pages, yes.

19 Q. If I'm being too general, let me know?

20 JUDGE MUMBA: No, Mr. Ryneveld, you're doing

21 it very well, because right now we don't know yet what

22 Mr. Prodanovic will file, so it is better to go into

23 the details.

24 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

25 Q. Now, sir, immediately thereafter, I was going

Page 1937

1 to ask you to turn to page 11 of tape 2a. There's only

2 a very brief break in the action before we recommence,

3 and we start playing -- we were to start playing again

4 at 12:39:49, and that's just a very short passage to

5 the end of that page, about half a page, stopping at

6 12:41:59.

7 Now, if you just look at that half page,

8 would it be fair to say, sir, that I had intended to

9 ask you there about the accused's discussion, what

10 occurred with the witness who has now become known to

11 this Court as number 87?

12 A. That's right.

13 Q. Thank you. Turning next, if I may, to the

14 next portion of tape that I intended to have you assist

15 us with. That would be on now the fourth side of the

16 tape, so that would be tape 2b, at the fourth page 2 in

17 this document. And near the bottom of the page, I

18 believe that one of the participants in the interview

19 who you identified as Patricia Sellers asks a question,

20 and that starts on the videotape at 12:46:52.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And goes the remainder of that page and about

23 halfway on page 3, the next page, and stops at

24 12:50:01. And would it be fair to say, sir, that in

25 that exchange, there is a discussion about an

Page 1938

1 individual who has since died, the allegations of

2 gang-rape and Mr. Kunarac's concerns about some of his

3 previous associates in relation to his personal safety?

4 A. Yes, that's right.

5 Q. This may well be, for the Court's benefit,

6 part of the portion that my learned friend has referred

7 to.

8 Now, sir, I believe I am finished with the

9 March 13th, 1998 interview, Exhibit 67. If I can ask

10 you to turn with me to the first of the two next

11 transcripts, which is, for the Court's purposes, the

12 transcript Exhibit 69. And before I ask you the

13 contents of this particular document, I'm going to ask

14 you some preliminary questions about your different

15 role with respect to the next two transcripts.

16 Do I understand, sir, that by the 22nd of

17 April, 1999, you were no longer merely an investigator

18 but you were, in fact, the team leader for this

19 particular team, part of whose duties were the Foca

20 files?

21 A. That's right.

22 Q. And in that capacity, you were, as it were,

23 in charge of individuals whose particular

24 responsibility it was to continue with these

25 investigations?

Page 1939

1 A. Yes. I assigned people to particular

2 functions, yes.

3 Q. Were one of those people a gentleman called

4 Robert Kempf?

5 A. That's right.

6 Q. With the interview of April 22, 1999, did you

7 give instructions to Mr. Kempf in regard to the taking

8 of a further statement with respect to Mr. Kunarac?

9 A. Yes, I did. Mr. Kempf had, by that stage,

10 joined the team and was assigned to this case. He was

11 the investigator on the case and he was then assigned

12 to conduct the interview of Mr. Kunarac.

13 Q. Is Mr. Kempf still an employee of the ICTY

14 today?

15 A. No, he's not.

16 Q. So he's not with the ICTY at the moment?

17 He's not here?

18 A. That's right. He resigned towards the end of

19 1999.

20 Q. All right. As his supervisor, did he make a

21 report to you concerning what went on, with respect to

22 other matters I'm sure, but in particular with respect

23 to the interviews of the 22nd and 28th and 23rd of

24 April 1999?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1940

1 Q. And have you had an opportunity to review, in

2 brief, or cursorily review the contents of the

3 interview conducted by Mr. Kempf?

4 A. Yes. I certainly don't have the in-depth

5 knowledge of that interview as I have of the one that I

6 personally conducted, but I've certainly had a look at

7 the transcripts, yes.

8 Q. And perhaps you can assist us, to your

9 understanding, which is perhaps similar to ours in that

10 you too have had an opportunity of looking at the

11 transcripts and have an opportunity to look at the

12 videos, who was present at that particular interview?

13 A. If I could refer to the transcript, please.

14 Q. Please, if you would and maybe we should just

15 start on page 1 of the transcript under -- this is now

16 22ap1. doc. Again, it was the same process, I take it,

17 an audio tape is made from the simultaneous videotape;

18 is that correct?

19 A. Yes, that's right.

20 Q. And before you even answer that question, do

21 you know where this interview took place?

22 A. I understand that it happened here.

23 Q. And "here" meaning in a room at the ICTY?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Sorry. Answer my first question if you

Page 1941

1 remember it. Who was there?

2 A. Mr. Kempf; Mr. Kunarac; Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff;

3 Barbara Hanel, who was an investigator; Mr. Slavisa

4 Prodanovic, who is the accused's or Mr. Kunarac's

5 counsel.

6 Q. I understand his co-counsel Ms. Pilipovic was

7 there as well?

8 A. Yes, that's correct. And the interpreter was

9 a Ms. Pitesa.

10 Q. And all that is highlighted for us, I take it

11 in the first half of page 1 of the April 22nd

12 transcript?

13 A. Yes, it is.

14 Q. Do I understand correctly, sir, that in the

15 balance of those pages, Mr. Kempf again gave the

16 accused his rights and told him that everything was

17 being recorded, that an interpreter was being supplied;

18 is that correct?

19 A. Yes. The rights are given.

20 Q. And satisfied himself that they were was able

21 to communicate in a language that the accused

22 understood? I'm over on page 2 of that document now?

23 A. Yes, that's the case.

24 Q. At the bottom of page 2, do you know what

25 rights Mr. Kempf gave to the accused?

Page 1942

1 A. Yes. Mr. Kempf states: "You do not have to

2 say anything or answer my questions unless you want to

3 do so. Anything you say will be recorded and could be

4 used as evidence against later in the Tribunal

5 proceedings, including your trial. Do you

6 understand?" Mr. Kunarac respond, "Yes, I do."

7 Q. All right. And as you've already indicated

8 who was present, you're aware that his current counsel,

9 both his current counsel who are present in the

10 courtroom today were present during that interview?

11 A. That's my understanding, yes.

12 Q. Now, sir, I'd like you to turn with me,

13 because I'm going to start highlighting this, if I may,

14 to page 8 of the first tape, which should be 22ap1.doc

15 the very bottom of the page.

16 Was there a conversation had between your

17 investigators and Mr. Kunarac concerning some car

18 accidents that he was involved in?

19 A. Yes. In a response to suggestions from Mr.

20 Kempf, Mr. Kunarac responded: "There were two car

21 accidents during this critical period. The first one

22 occurred on the 8th of August between 0700 and 0730.

23 On the road Brijoni-Foca I was in a VW Golf car and I

24 had a head-on collision with a Magirus Deutz truck.

25 That's when I had the fractures on two ribs and my toes

Page 1943

1 and I had a number of contusions. And the second

2 accident took place."

3 Q. All right. Then there is some clarification

4 of about which year in August. Then there's August

5 1992, and then was there a discussion about a second

6 accident?

7 A. Yes. Mr. Kunarac states: "And about 20 days

8 later," so the 25th or the 26th of August, "then there

9 was a second accident. We were in the Armoured

10 Personnel Carrier which I returned. So actually then I

11 suffered a fracture of the right arm; that is to say,

12 the clip of rifle went into my wrist. Then I suffered

13 again the injury on my already broken ribs. This time

14 I was not alone in the vehicle. Three men were killed

15 and nine were injured."

16 Q. All right. The next highlighted area that I

17 was going to ask you to turn to would be on page 10 of

18 that first tape of the 22nd of April document. The

19 very top of the page, sir, did he indicate to you the

20 nature of the injuries he sustained in his arm in that

21 second car accident to which he made earlier

22 reference?

23 A. He states: "That after this accident, I

24 spent two or three days in the hospital, but on the

25 first accident I left the hospital the very same day.

Page 1944

1 I was just examined and plastered and then they let me

2 go."

3 Q. And then there's a -- okay, that's fine. So

4 he was plastered at some point?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Excuse me. Turning, if I may, next to page

7 15 of that first tape. Was there a discussion to your

8 understanding about Kunarac's basic training and his

9 specialised military training, and in particular, I'm

10 now looking at -- did I say 15? I meant 14. My

11 apology. About halfway -- or a third of the way down

12 the page. After he is asked: "Did you perform

13 military compulsory service?" and the reply was yes and

14 there was a question about when and where. What was

15 the response?

16 A. Mr. Kunarac respond: "From 1980 to 1981 I

17 followed the training in Travnik, and the rest of my

18 compulsory service I served in Mostar. I was in the

19 engineering unit. I was a mechanic for mines and

20 explosives. So this is the abbreviation MIMEF, mines

21 and explosive mechanic for."

22 Q. And then I understand, at the bottom of that

23 page, he goes into further details about his uniform

24 and when he got certain military equipment and matters

25 of that nature; is that correct?

Page 1945

1 A. Yes. In the course of the discussion, he

2 says: "I was mobilised on the 21st for the first

3 time. I got the uniform and the rifle. This was in

4 former Yugoslavia. I was in a reserve unit for four

5 months. For four months until the 21st or the 25th of

6 December, 1991, then I was mobilised for the second

7 time on the 8th of April, 1992, until the 15th of May,

8 1992. I was demobbed from the Yugoslav army. On the

9 6th of June I came as a volunteer, as a person from

10 Republika Srpska, from the municipality of Foca, and I

11 joined the military units that actually had been in the

12 course of their formation, the military units of the

13 VRS." This is the shortest.

14 Q. All right. There are obviously other areas,

15 but I want to just highlight some of these. Let me ask

16 you next to turn with me to what I intended to play as

17 excerpt 5, and that would be -- that's from the

18 videotape. That would be page 18 of again that first

19 audio tape.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And it's, sir, the question starting with

22 "Robert," after the first paragraph.

23 MR. RYNEVELD: And for the Court's benefit,

24 the play on this tape is at 11:30:46, and I had

25 intended to play for -- it looks like two pages, to the

Page 1946

1 top of page 20 of the transcript, where he completes

2 his reply before Robert says, "Okay." That would be at

3 11:40:35. Again, this may only be helpful if your

4 counters match. If not, it's of no use to you at all,

5 but it's two pages.

6 Q. Now, sir, is it fair to say that in that

7 excerpt, the accused discusses that special

8 reconnaissance unit and the number of men in his unit,

9 among some other things?

10 A. Yes, that's right.

11 Q. And these videotape highlights that we have

12 selected, those are areas that we wish to draw to the

13 particular attention to the Court as they relate to

14 issues that we feel are relevant to the indictment.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Yes. On that same page, sir, i.e. 20, where

17 we had stopped, the last three sort of annotated

18 paragraphs where it starts with "Robert," we would have

19 started playing at 11:43:19, and that refers to

20 injuries to his father and his return to Foca; is that

21 correct? And that goes -- basically his response stops

22 about a third of way on the next page, 21?

23 A. Yes, that's correct.

24 Q. And the video counter number would have been

25 stopped at 11:46:11; is that correct?

Page 1947

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, I'm going to ask you a couple of

3 questions about that general area, sir. And to assist

4 both the Court and the witness, if you could turn to

5 page 24 of the first tape, about halfway down the

6 page.

7 I'm going to ask you, sir: Did Mr. Kunarac

8 make any responses to the question of how his unit was

9 formed?

10 A. Yes. Can I have that reference to the

11 transcript again, sir.

12 Q. Yes. Page 24, about halfway through the

13 page?

14 A. Of which document?

15 Q. We're still talking about the 22nd of April

16 1999 interview, and it still looks like tape 1 of the

17 audio tape. As a matter of fact, for that whole

18 interview, we only seem to have one audio tape, so we

19 don't have to worry about that?

20 A. Okay. That's in respond to Mr. Kempf's

21 question: "Where did the initiative to form a

22 reconnaissance unit come from?"

23 Q. That's correct, sir.

24 A. In response to that question, Mr. Kunarac

25 said: "The first time I received an order it was from

Page 1948

1 the brigade command. Actually, the brigade itself was

2 in the process of formation at that time, and I was

3 informed that the village of Jabuka was attacked.

4 Actually, the village of Jabuka is sort of a complex of

5 eight or nine smaller villages. So I was sent there to

6 see what was going on, and I had like ten men with me.

7 Actually, there were ten men who were at disposal at

8 that time who were free."

9 Q. All right. And over to page 25. Was there a

10 discussion with Mr. Kunarac concerning where weapons

11 and uniforms, et cetera, came from that were provided

12 for his men?

13 A. In response to the question from Mr. Kempf to

14 that effect, Mr. Kunarac said: "Myself and a lot of

15 people who came and who reported, we got the weapons

16 from the Livade warehouse in Foca. We got them from

17 the Serb forces in Foca municipalities, either from

18 civilian defence or Territorial Defence." He then

19 caries on discussing something else.

20 Q. All right. Did he describe his uniform or

21 any of the insignia? Again on that page.

22 A. Yes. When asked that question Mr. Kempf, he

23 said: "It was a two-part camouflage uniform. Okay.

24 We didn't have any insignia at the beginning, but later

25 on during the war, we had a round sign with

Page 1949

1 three-coloured flag with the inscription 'VRS' or the

2 'Army Republika Srpska'."

3 Q. All right. Turning me with you would,

4 please, to page 26, the bottom third of that page. I

5 believe my co-counsel Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff asked a

6 question. It had to do with the types of weapons that

7 were involved.

8 A. Yes. Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff asked the question:

9 "What kind of a weapon did you get?" Mr. Kunarac

10 responded: "I've had an automatic rifle with a

11 collapsible metal butt. This is all I needed for

12 weapons. I have never had any other firearm, not a

13 pistol or any other type of rifle. About four months I

14 had only this automatic rifle. While I was in the

15 field, I frequently had a knife because I needed to

16 extract the mines, to clear the area around the

17 mines."

18 Mr. Kempf then asked: "What was the calibre

19 of the automatic rifle?" Mr. Kunarac responded: "7.6

20 millimetres. This was an automatic rifle of a

21 Kalashnikov type, 7.6, an assault rifle that

22 the Yugoslav army had."

23 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The registrar

24 would like to ask the Prosecutor to slow down and to

25 make a breaks between the questions and answers because

Page 1950

1 it is really too fast, and this would assist the

2 interpreters in their work; otherwise, they will not

3 manage.

4 MR. RYNEVELD: My apologies.

5 The danger when interviewing a witness in

6 English is to forget all about translation, and I do

7 apologise to the interpreters for that. It's not that

8 I don't have enough time to finish this witness today.

9 Q. Would you turn with me please, sir, to

10 page 35 of this transcript. I'm skipping some now.

11 Was there a discussion, starting at the top

12 of the page, about the means by which Mr. Kunarac

13 communicated with his superiors? And you can pause in

14 your response, if you wish.

15 A. In response to a question from Mr. Kempf,

16 which was: "How do you communicate with your

17 superior?" Mr. Kunarac responded: "While I was in the

18 field, personally I had a radio transmitter, because

19 such a task, a completion of such a task is not even

20 conceivable without any means of communication. In the

21 beginning we had our RUP stations, RUP 3 and RUP 12,

22 and we later on we had smaller radio transmitters."

23 Q. Thank you. Would you turn with me next to

24 page 37. Oh, wait a minute. I may be wrong here.

25 Thirty -- my tab is on the wrong page. Thirty-six. My

Page 1951

1 apology.

2 Did he indicate to your investigator, sir,

3 where the brigade headquarters were located?

4 A. Yes. Mr. Kempf puts the question: "You

5 mentioned that there was a brigade command post in the

6 building which is now a religious academy. Is this the

7 former prison for females at Velecevo?" Mr. Kunarac

8 responded: "Yes."

9 Q. Then, as I understand it, he went on to

10 describe details of those premises. Is that correct?

11 A. Yes, he does.

12 Q. Turning next, if we could, please, to

13 page 39. Was there an ongoing discussion here about

14 the brigade headquarters building? About halfway

15 through the page, sir.

16 A. Yes. Mr. Kunarac says: "So this is the

17 complex of female prison." Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff asks:

18 "Were there any soldiers housed there or was it just

19 purely the command post?" Mr. Kunarac said: "This was

20 purely military command of the brigade. There were

21 actually located all the time, 10 to 15 military police

22 officers that I mentioned before, and also about

23 20 security guards for the premises itself. This is

24 the place what I was told it was, and this is the place

25 I was meeting with brigade commanders. I am not aware

Page 1952

1 of any other function of that place. It was not used

2 as either prison or any other form of a detention

3 facility."

4 Q. Turning next, if you would, with me, to the

5 very bottom of page 40. Was there some discussion

6 about a different command post at Buk Bijela?

7 A. Yes. Mr. Kempf asks: "Can you tell me

8 anything about the command post at Buk Bijela?"

9 Mr. Kunarac responded: "In the shortest, this was the

10 command of the 4th Battalion."

11 Q. And over the page, sir, top of page 41, did

12 Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff ask anything about the Foca

13 Brigade?

14 A. Yes. She asks: "'Of the Foca Brigade' is

15 the question." Mr. Kunarac responded: "Yes, of the

16 Foca Brigade. As I said before, the brigade consisted

17 of five battalions. So this is the command post for

18 one of those battalions."

19 Q. All right. Now, sir, we had intended, at

20 that point, to turn next to the transcript page 43 and

21 start the video at 14:40:05, where there is discussion

22 about the command post at the Miljevina Hotel. Is that

23 correct?

24 A. That's right.

25 Q. And we had intended to play the balance of

Page 1953

1 43, 44, right through to -- do you know the number?

2 I've got it here -- page 51, halfway through the page,

3 with the video stop number at 15:16:34.

4 Now, please correct me if I'm wrong, sir, but

5 as I understand it, the purpose of playing that area

6 was to bring to the Chamber's attention the discussions

7 about the command post at Miljevina Hotel, the chain of

8 command.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. The command post at Velecevo.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. His various missions.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And his ability to select members for his

15 unit.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. All right. Now, even though I'm glossing

18 over this in this way, these are areas of obvious --

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Importance.

20 MR. RYNEVELD: -- importance in the view of

21 the Prosecution.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Yes.

23 MR. RYNEVELD:

24 Q. We had intended next, sir, if I remember

25 correctly, to turn to -- I seem to have lost the tab

Page 1954

1 stop here. Page 54. Thank you. I have still stickies

2 here but -- no, I'm missing one.

3 I see that it's about three minutes to

4 eleven. There is a video excerpt about fighting at

5 Rogoj and the Kalinovik Brigade that I wanted to find,

6 and I seem to have lost my tab in terms of what page

7 that is.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Perhaps we can rise early and

9 give you an opportunity to rearrange your documents. I

10 realise that we changed the procedure suddenly.

11 MR. RYNEVELD: I've just lost the sticky.

12 That's what's happened. Thank you.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: So maybe we can rise now. It's

14 three minutes, but we will resume at 1130 hours.

15 --- Recess taken at 10.58 a.m.

16 --- On resuming at 11.28 a.m.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We'll proceed.

18 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Before I ask the next question of the witness, I might

20 say that the reason I couldn't find my next start is

21 because it was subsumed in the pages that I had

22 earlier given a reference to.

23 So I think I told you that we were going to

24 play all the way to page 51. Actually, I meant to stop

25 at halfway on page 48, at tab 15 -- not tab. Well,

Page 1955

1 counter 15:04:23, and then skip through to the bottom

2 of page 49 where we intended to start again.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

4 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

5 Q. Thank you. If I can then would draw the

6 witness's attention to the bottom of 49. And we would

7 have normally started playing at 15:08:18.

8 Witness, I need to remind both you and I that

9 although you and I are speaking truly simultaneously,

10 apparently the translation takes a little while in

11 between so that other people can hear. So if you would

12 pause after I finish speaking, and I will try to

13 remember to do the same.

14 A. Okay.

15 Q. Bottom of page 49, sir. Was there a

16 discussion between your investigator and Mr. Kunarac

17 about basically his role in Rogoj?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Is it fair to say, sir, that in that excerpt

20 which starts at the bottom of page 49 through page 50

21 and to halfway through page 51, he discusses basically

22 the fighting at Rogoj between the parties to the armed

23 conflict and discusses as well the Kalinovik Brigade?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... mentions

Page 1956

1 dates and times and certain details about that

2 incident; is that correct?

3 A. Yes, that's correct.

4 Q. We would have played until halfway through

5 page 51 and stopped the tape at 15:16:34; is that

6 correct?

7 A. Yes, that's correct.

8 Q. We were next going to turn to our ninth video

9 excerpt, which was to be located at page 54, the bottom

10 two responses basically at the bottom of page 54, the

11 question by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, and start the play at

12 15:28:02.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Would it be fair to say, sir, that this

15 extract discusses in some detail who the accused refer

16 to in his previous comments as "his men," more details

17 about the premises and what went on at Ulica Osmana

18 Djikica 16, the involvement of the Montenegrins from

19 Niksic, and the discussion about the witness referred

20 to by the pseudonym FWS-75 and his comments about her?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Sir, if you would turn with me to page -- I'm

23 sorry. Did I indicate that we would stop at the bottom

24 of -- I'm sorry, a third of the way down 56 and stop at

25 15:33:56.

Page 1957

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Might we now turn to the following page, page

3 57, about halfway through the page. Is there a

4 discussion there, in response to a question from my

5 co-counsel, about the night the mosque, the Aladza

6 mosque, was blown up? Can you tell us about that?

7 A. Yes. Mr. Kunarac was asked: "Do you recall

8 when this mosque was blown up?" He said: "At the

9 moment it was blown up, I was on the Velecevo-Foca

10 road. I was close to the school centre, education

11 centre. I was in a car coming back from Velecevo. It

12 was on the 2nd of August, about half past eleven or

13 about midnight or the time between. We were coming

14 back because we left the vehicle with the anti-aircraft

15 machine gun, and I was travelling back towards Foca

16 when that happened. I don't know who did it, but I

17 went to the brigade commander after that, and I know

18 for sure that this was not done by the Engineering

19 Unit, which had already been created and was the part

20 of the brigade. This was a unit of about ten men, and

21 I found all of them there. I spent" --

22 Q. Now, following that there is a further

23 discussion about clarification of that statement. Then

24 I would like you to turn, if you would, with me,

25 please, to page 63. Again in response to my

Page 1958

1 co-counsel's question -- it's about halfway down the

2 page -- it indicates, "Hildegard: Let me ask you

3 another question." Start playing -- we would start

4 playing at 16:00:29, for the balance of that page and

5 the next page about halfway, stopping at 16:05:36.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. In that excerpt, sir, was there a discussion

8 with Mr. Kunarac about the Independent Zaga Detachment

9 and again further involvement about Montenegrins?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. The bottom of that same page, was there a

12 discussion about a group known as Tuta's Group?

13 A. Yes, there was.

14 Q. Can you briefly summarise what that

15 discussion was about? It's the bottom of that page and

16 over the top of the next page.

17 A. In summary, Mr. Kunarac talks about the man

18 Tuta, gives his assessment of this man.

19 Q. All right. And how about the group itself?

20 I'm now, in particular, referring to page 65, the

21 group. The question from Mr. Kempf was: "Was it a

22 military formation similar to yours?" Perhaps you

23 could just read that answer.

24 A. The answer of Mr. Kunarac was: "Well, he was

25 a member of a military unit that was a little bit wider

Page 1959

1 and bigger than mine, and they had some special

2 purposes. It was one of the Intervention Units. Each

3 battalion had one Intervention Unit, and such a unit

4 was built up usually from 15 to 30 men. They were

5 selected from the battalion among 350 or 400 men, and

6 as the name suggests, the Intervention Unit was used to

7 intervene in a case of attack, to be the first one to

8 try to prevent the army, because at that time the Serb

9 side was completely on the defensive. We call it, in

10 military terms, we call it the active defence. We were

11 observing the movements of the enemy, and we were

12 getting ready for a possible attack. So in case of

13 attack, those units were meant to take the first impact

14 on them. Quite often those units were free or they

15 were on standby to take the first. To respond first in

16 a case of an attack. Other units had a sort of shift

17 organisation. They were like five days in the field

18 and five days at home."

19 Q. Thank you. Coming to, I think, the last

20 reference in this transcript, sir, at page 67, about

21 the top third of the page, Mr. Kempf asked about an

22 individual referred to as DP3. Can you indicate

23 whether or not Mr. Kunarac responded and perhaps just

24 the four lines of response for us?

25 A. Yes. He responded: "He was DP3 was

Page 1960

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted). After

4 him, there were other people, other men who led the

5 group, but I would ask you not to speak too much about

6 that group."

7 Q. Although I indicated, sir, that was the last

8 reference, I have skipped a page. I'm sorry. Would

9 you go back to page 66 with me. You see the top of

10 that page there is a -- well, just the top of that

11 page. There is a discussion there. The first half of

12 that talks about DP1 and (redacted).

13 Can you just summarise -- or rather than

14 summarise, can you just give that portion halfway

15 through the page for us, please?

16 A. Mr. Kempf asks Mr. Kunarac about (redacted)

17 (redacted). Mr. Kunarac said: "Yes. This was also a

18 group. DP1 was in a group." He went on to say:

19 "They called themselves Guard, and the Guard would be

20 the Elite Unit."

21 Q. Was there a clarification by

22 Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff about what (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 A. Yes. She draws Mr. Kunarac to the fact:

25 "Some people referred to (redacted) as military

Page 1961

1 police. Is that correct?" Mr. Kunarac responded:

2 "They called themselves military police, but as far as

3 I know, they have never been a part of the military

4 police." Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff went on: "So the military

5 policemen you mentioned this morning, they have nothing

6 to do with these people?" Mr. Kunarac replied: "No.

7 This was a completely different group. They were very

8 correct and very nice people."

9 Q. I see. At the bottom of at that page as

10 well, there's a reference to White Eagles. Do you know

11 anything about that or was there a response to that?

12 A. Yes. Mr. Kempf asked Mr. Kunarac did he,

13 Mr. Kunarac, ever work with that group the White

14 Eagles. Mr. Kunarac responded: "Well, the term 'White

15 Eagles' was used, but there was a Reserve Battalion

16 composed, built up of retired men, elderly men retired,

17 and we called them White Eagles balls of their white

18 hair."

19 Q. And just to back up one more page to 65.

20 There was a discussion at the bottom of that page about

21 where DP1 belonged to, and over the top of the page --

22 I guess I started at the top of 66. I should have

23 started at the bottom of 65. Can you just read those

24 two lines to us as well?

25 A. Sorry, from the bottom of 65?

Page 1962

1 Q. Sixty-five. We've already done top of 66,

2 but I didn't back you up far enough.

3 A. Mr. Kempf asks about the DP6 group.

4 Mr. Kunarac responded: "DP6 is a man I

5 know. He was in Foca with a number of men, (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 Q. And the question was about whether DP1

9 belonged there, and then the clarification was that he

10 was with (redacted), is that right, and we've

11 already read that?

12 A. Yes, that's correct.

13 Q. All right. Thank you very much. Might we

14 now turn to a very few selections from the April 23rd

15 interview. That would be transcript Exhibit

16 number 71.

17 MR. RYNEVELD: For the Court's benefit, I

18 have only four references in this whole transcript.

19 Q. First of all, sir, if you would turn --

20 again, this is the following day. The same

21 participants, I take it?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. At the bottom of -- sorry. The participants

24 of the following day's interview start at page 1, and I

25 believe Mr. Kempf again is introducing himself.

Page 1963

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And at the top of page 2 he introduces the

3 balance of the people in the room which will be seen

4 actually on this video; is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And they include -- perhaps you can just tell

7 us who was there.

8 A. All right. Mr. Kunarac, Mr. Kempf,

9 Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, Barbara Hanel, Slavisa Prodanovic.

10 Q. And I see Ms. Pilipovic and the interpreter

11 are both there as well?

12 A. And the interpreter as well. The same group

13 of people, yes.

14 Q. All right. And they continue on basically in

15 the discussions on the following day; is that correct?

16 A. That's right.

17 Q. All right. If I may turn first, if I would,

18 please, to page 21 of this -- this one starts a new

19 numbering with 1. So page 21, please. And the video

20 would start playing at the counter 11:59:43, and it

21 continues to the following page, about two-thirds of

22 the way down, stopping with the words: "In a house in

23 Foca ...", stop at 12:02:06.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. In that brief video extract, sir, do I

Page 1964

1 understand correctly that there is a discussion by

2 Mr. Kunarac concerning the Kalinovik primary school,

3 reference to people who are referred to in these

4 proceedings are FWS-191 and FWS-192, and messages that

5 were passed between these individuals?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Thank you. Skipping a few pages then to

8 page 24. We had intended to play at counter 12:07:53,

9 which is at the bottom of the page, with Mr. Kunarac's

10 reply starting with the words: "So when I came to Foca

11 about 2300 hours on the 2nd of August ...", through to

12 a number of pages to page 28, about halfway through the

13 page, where the last phrase is: "I don't know who

14 brought them." No. I'm sorry. Stop it at: "I needed

15 to check the information she gave me." Is that

16 correct?

17 A. That's correct.

18 Q. And that is at counter number 12:24:00.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, is it fair to say, sir, that what we

21 attempted to highlight in that excerpt is more

22 information concerning the person referred to in these

23 proceedings as FWS-191, a traffic accident, the house

24 in Trnovace, and Witness FWS-86, among other things?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1965

1 Q. Those would be the highlights that we would

2 wish to draw to the Court's attention from those pages?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Thank you. Now, immediately after that

5 video, at about halfway on page 28, did the accused

6 Mr. Kunarac say when and where the women came from?

7 A. Yes. He states: "They were brought from the

8 school, from the school building on the 2nd of August.

9 I wasn't there when they were brought. I don't know

10 who brought them."

11 Q. All right. And then I have one more video

12 reference and one more question for you with respect to

13 the transcripts. At page 29, halfway the page, my

14 co-counsel asks a question about, "Let's just return to

15 that first occasion when you met her." That, my

16 understanding is, refers to FWS-86. That starts --

17 that video starts at 12:27:32, and would go the balance

18 of that page for a few pages until two-thirds of the

19 way down page 32, with the -- conclude with the words,

20 "This is what I can say about this matter so far,"

21 uttered by Mr. Kunarac?

22 A. Yes, that's right.

23 Q. And we would stop the video at 12:38:33?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Having said, that sir, is it safe to say that

Page 1966

1 a very general description of what that talks about is

2 DP6 and a person referred to by the nickname

3 of (redacted) and discussions had with Witness FWS-86?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Finally, sir, with respect to this matter,

6 would you turn with me to page 42? About halfway the

7 page, Mr. Kempf asks a question about other people in

8 Partizan, and it refers to -- in context of the

9 previous exchange that went on about the village. I

10 believe there is a reference to an individual coming

11 from Trosanj and there is a discussion about other

12 villages.

13 Was there a discussion about where the other

14 women in Partizan were from, about halfway the page?

15 Now, when you read that response, would you take care

16 not to read the names. The initials of the first

17 person referred to is DB, and the second person

18 referred to is 87. Do you see that?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Keeping those guidelines, would you please

21 just read that response, that one paragraph. And that

22 DB is referred to twice, sir.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 A. Mr. Kunarac's response was, "I don't know. I

Page 1967

1 spoke to DB but to nobody else. I think that most of

2 them were from that village. There was approximately

3 50 in there, mostly women, children. So when I went to

4 Partizan, I didn't know anybody over there, and then I

5 asked for the people, for women who spoke to the

6 journalist, and then as nobody replied, I took my

7 notebook from my pocket and I said I need to talk to

8 DB, 87, and two other names. I need to talk to those

9 who say that Zaga and Zaga's men took them out. I

10 stepped into the hall. I may have taken three or four

11 steps inside and that's when I called the names."

12 Q. Unless my co-counsel have anything else,

13 those are the selected portions of the three

14 transcripts that I wish to draw to the Court's

15 attention.

16 May I just check with my colleagues. I have

17 just a couple of other questions for this witness in

18 general, not relating to these transcripts.

19 Sir, do I also understand that in your

20 capacity as team leader of this file, that you also

21 participated in attempted photo board identification of

22 some of the witnesses with respect to photo line-ups of

23 suspects?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And, sir, because you would have names, do I

Page 1968

1 understand correctly that you participated in some five

2 of these photo board line-ups?

3 A. Yes, I did.

4 Q. And please correct me if I'm wrong, my

5 understanding of the people -- do you have the numbers,

6 by any chance, so that you can check? I'm going to put

7 a suggestion to you, unless my friends disagree. Do I

8 understand correctly that you were involved in Witness

9 number 50?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Fifty-one?

12 A. Excuse me. I'll just check if I have the

13 numbers, if I could. 50, 51, yes.

14 Q. Sixty-one?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Sixty-two?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And 183.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Thank you, sir. I have no further questions

21 of you at this time.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Mr. Kunarac, any

23 cross-examination -- I'm sorry, Mr. Prodanovic.

24 Cross-examination, please.

25 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

Page 1969

1 Your Honour.

2 Cross-examined by Mr. Prodanovic:

3 Q. I am interested, sir, at whose initiative

4 this first interview was given? Who initiated it?

5 A. I understood that it was initiated or

6 requested by the Office of the Prosecutor. That was my

7 understanding, and agreed to by Defence.

8 Q. And my second question is the following: Can

9 you tell me why the second interview came about? At

10 whose initiative?

11 A. I don't know the answer to that question. I

12 believe it would be the Office of the Prosecutor also,

13 but really, I don't know. I don't know. Not for the

14 second interview.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no

17 further questions, Your Honours.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Just to be complete;

19 Mr. Kolesar?

20 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I have no

21 questions, Your Honours.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Jovanovic.

23 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your

24 permission, Your Honours, I have several short

25 questions of this witness.

Page 1970

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. You can go ahead.

2 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

3 Your Honour.

4 Cross-examined by Mr. Jovanovic:

5 Q. Good morning, sir. You said, at the

6 beginning of your testimony, that you have served in

7 the police force for 23 years. Is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. I do apologise. Unless this is confidential,

10 can you tell us your rank?

11 A. Yes, my rank when I left New Zealand was

12 Detective Senior Sergeant.

13 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us, during those 23

14 years of service in the police force, what jobs did you

15 perform? Let me make this clearer. Did you work in

16 the traffic department, in the crime squad, crime

17 department, that kind of thing?

18 A. Most of my service was in connection with

19 criminal investigation, which generally involved the

20 investigation of serious crime.

21 Q. Within the frameworks of your work in the

22 police force, did your work include the identification

23 of criminals via photo boards or photo line-ups?

24 A. Yes, it did.

25 Q. I don't need a detailed answer to my next

Page 1971

1 question, but I would be interested in knowing whether

2 for that type of identification there are any rules and

3 regulations which you adhere to. Let me make myself

4 clearer. Are there any rules which state, for example,

5 the following: That a certain witness will be shown a

6 series of different photographs or has to be shown a

7 series of different photographs? Do you try and take

8 these photographs from the same angle? Are there any

9 rules as to how this is conducted, this photo board and

10 photo line-up is conducted when you wish to get a

11 positive identification?

12 A. Yes, there are certainly rules, both where I

13 come from and here, and those rules generally are very

14 similar and most of it's common sense, really. There

15 normally has to be a certain number of photographs.

16 The photographs can't be too dissimilar. When the

17 photographs are shown to a particular witness, you

18 cannot invite any comment one way or the other. You

19 clearly have to accurately record the identification if

20 it occurs or the non-identification if it occurs.

21 Generally, if you're showing photo boards to a number

22 of witnesses, if there is any chance that those

23 witnesses would have contact in between times, you

24 would normally show a different set of photographs.

25 Those generally are the rules that I'm certainly used

Page 1972

1 to.

2 Q. Very well. If I understand you correctly,

3 then those rules, in principle, and their basic premise

4 are used in your work here at the Tribunal; is that

5 correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Thank you?

8 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

9 I now have a somewhat lengthy question, but with your

10 permission, I should like to go ahead and ask it of the

11 witness, if I may.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, please. Go ahead.

13 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 Q. Bearing in mind everything that we have heard

15 in your testimony so far, your experience, the rules

16 that exist in that sphere of work, let us take a

17 hypothetical situation. Individual A has the task of

18 identifying person B. Person A is shown three

19 photographs. On all three photographs, we have the

20 same individual who is there to be identified.

21 Would you consider that kind of

22 identification valid?

23 A. The same person and three photographs, is

24 that what you're saying?

25 Q. Yes. And only those three photographs are

Page 1973

1 shown.

2 A. No. I wouldn't consider that valid

3 identification.

4 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I

5 have no further questions.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Any re-examination,

7 Mr. Ryneveld?

8 MR. RYNEVELD: Following from that last

9 question.

10 Re-examined by Mr. Ryneveld:

11 Q. Sir, in this hypothetical situation, is there

12 a difference in procedure between an identification

13 process and a recognition process? In other words,

14 asking a witness to identify someone that they may

15 recognise from a series of, say, hypothetically 12

16 photographs or a different process known as a

17 recognition process? Is there a difference?

18 A. Yes. Well, I understand there is a

19 difference. The circumstances I was discussing with

20 counsel, I was referring to a clear identification

21 process where a witness is endeavouring to identify

22 somebody who committed some crime. As I understand, a

23 recognition process, as opposed to an identification

24 process, is where the person shown in the photo is

25 known to the person you were showing the photos to.

Page 1974

1 Q. Yes.

2 A. That's my understanding of the situation.

3 Q. Yes. And in the same hypothetical situation,

4 assuming that the person had indicated that they knew

5 an individual A, putting the same hypothetical my

6 friend put to you, i.e. the person is then shown three

7 different photographs of a person to see whether or not

8 she recognises that person as the one that she has

9 identified as someone she knew, what can you say about

10 to process in those circumstances?

11 A. Well, those circumstances are different. If

12 the witness has said and the evidence is clear that the

13 person in the photos is known to the person viewing the

14 photos, I would regard that process as being quite

15 proper.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you very much,

18 Mr. Simpson. We are through with you. You are free to

19 go.

20 THE WITNESS: Thank you, ma'am.

21 MR. RYNEVELD: As intimated, I am out of

22 witnesses at this point, having calculate we would have

23 taken the balance of the day with a slightly different

24 process that was actually adopted. My apologies to the

25 Court.

Page 1975

1 JUDGE MUMBA: No, Mr. Ryneveld, you don't

2 have to apologise. The Judges are very happy to go and

3 read other briefs.

4 Thank you. So we've come to the end of these

5 proceedings. You have something else?

6 MR. RYNEVELD: I've just been reminded by

7 co-counsel that there is an issue she would like to

8 raise concerning protective measures for a witness.

9 Might we just take a moment to deal with that?

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Mr. Simpson can go.

11 [The witness withdrew]

12 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

13 MS. KUO: Your Honours, on April 18th, we or,

14 rather, the 19th, when we come back from the Plenary

15 Session and our break, we intend to call Witness AS.

16 And as she was added to the witness list after trial

17 began, we did not formally request the specific

18 protective measures for her testimony, and so at this

19 point we would like to orally move this Court to grant

20 her the protective measures that she has requested,

21 which is voice and image alteration. So that would be

22 identical to the other protected rape victims.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Voice and image alteration

24 only.

25 MS. KUO: Yes, in addition to the

Page 1976

1 confidentiality.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: I would like to hear from the

3 Defence counsels whether there is any objection.

4 Witness AS, who is the next witness the next

5 time we sit, is seeking voice and image alteration in

6 addition to the confidentiality.

7 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

8 as far as the Defence for Mr. Kunarac is concerned, we

9 have no objections to make. As far as I was able to

10 understand the proceedings, Witness AS does not have

11 anything to do with my client actually, but I leave my

12 colleagues to speak for themselves.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Mr. Kolesar.

14 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

15 the Kovac defence has nothing against the necessary

16 protective measures to be taken in respect of this

17 witness because that has become standard practice.

18 However, as I am on my feet, may I add asking

19 else as well, please? When during the examination of

20 Witness 75 and cross-examination, there was an incident

21 that took place because those of us who know the

22 Serbo-Croatian language and Bosnian language, we know

23 that the witness answered, "I do not know," to the

24 question posed her. My legal colleagues of the

25 Prosecution intervened and said that the witness had

Page 1977

1 answered, "No," rather than, "I do not know," and we

2 were promised that by the end of this session we would

3 receive the audio tape and the videotape as to what was

4 actually recorded.

5 According to the oral information we received

6 from the Registry, we are expecting to get a written

7 note from the interpreters and translators. This was

8 not what the Defence had asked for, and we should like

9 to overcome this problem, and perhaps we could do this

10 before the 19th when we go on to examine the witness.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: To do "this." To do what? I

12 don't think I get you. To do what before the 19th?

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Maybe I can ask the

15 registrar's assistance.

16 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The registrar

17 would like to state that on the day of -- on that

18 particular day, the audio cassette in B/C/S and the

19 English transcript were submitted to the Translation

20 Service in order to get any comments from the head of

21 the Interpretation Service.

22 This morning, orally, that particular person

23 confirmed to me that Witness 75 had answered, "I don't

24 know," to the question asked to her, and that we would

25 soon receive, in the afternoon actually, we would

Page 1978

1 receive an official memo from the Interpretation

2 Service in order to confirm what I've just told you.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar?

4 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I'm satisfied

5 with that answer. Thank you.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Jovanovic, on AS protective

7 measures, any comments?

8 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No comments

9 or objections, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Anything else?

11 MR. RYNEVELD: No thank you.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: So we've come to the end of our

13 proceedings for this week. Our next sitting is on the

14 19th and 20th of April, and the sittings will be at the

15 same times, 0930 hours in the morning.

16 My understanding on the protective measures,

17 when there are no objections, are that they are

18 granted. So I just have to make it formally clear.

19 All right. The Court will adjourn.

20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

21 12.10 p.m., to be reconvened on

22 Wednesday, the 19th day of April, 2000

23 at 9.30 a.m.

24

25