Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2180

1 Tuesday, 25 April 2000

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Would the registrar please call

7 the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Case number

9 IT-96-23-T, IT-96-23/1-T, the Prosecutor versus

10 Dragoljub Kunarac, Radomir Kovac, and Zoran Vukovic.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning. Before we start,

12 I would like to know whether the accused can hear the

13 proceedings in a language they understand.

14 Mr. Kunarac, can you hear the proceedings?

15 THE ACCUSED KUNARAC: [Interpretation] Yes,

16 Your Honour.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Can you hear?

18 THE ACCUSED KOVAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

19 Honour, I can follow.

20 THE ACCUSED VUKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes,

21 Your Honour.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. I take it the

23 parties are as before. We will proceed.

24 Good morning, Witness. Please make the

25 solemn declaration.

Page 2181

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly

2 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

3 and nothing but the truth.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Microphone for the witness.


7 [Witness answered through interpreter]

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Prosecution.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, before we

10 start with questioning, I have a matter regarding the

11 witness protection. In the order on protective

12 measures for witnesses from 5th October 1998, the Trial

13 Chamber ordered for this witness here to be heard in

14 closed session. However, the witness -- we have

15 clarified this matter over the weekend, and the witness

16 is not requesting it any longer but finds it enough as

17 a protection measure to have -- to testify with voice

18 and image alteration, and I would therefore request to

19 amend the protective order accordingly.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. I take it that the

21 Defence have understood the motion by the Prosecution.

22 Can I have your reaction, please?

23 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

24 Honour. We have no objection.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar?

Page 2182

1 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] No objection,

2 Your Honour.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Jovanovic?

4 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No objection,

5 Your Honour.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well. We shall go ahead

7 as requested. The motion is granted.

8 Examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

9 Q. Good morning, Witness.

10 A. Good morning.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the

12 usher, I would like to have this -- it's Prosecution

13 Exhibit number 200, to the witness. It's a sheet that

14 should be in front of everybody, and I would like to

15 enter this into evidence.

16 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This is

17 Exhibit P200, and it is under seal.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.


20 Q. Witness, would you please have a look at this

21 sheet of paper in front of you and would you please

22 confirm that the name, the first name on the list in

23 the second line of this sheet of paper, is your name.

24 A. It is.

25 Q. And the date next to your name, over to the

Page 2183

1 number 95, is that your birthday?

2 A. It is.

3 Q. Where were you born?

4 A. In Foca.

5 Q. Are you married?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Were you married before the war broke out?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you have any children?

10 A. I do.

11 Q. How many children?

12 A. Two.

13 Q. How old were your children during the events?

14 A. My daughter was a year and a half and my son

15 3 years old.

16 Q. How old were you during the events?

17 A. Twenty-seven.

18 Q. What is your ethnicity?

19 A. I'm Muslim.

20 Q. Where did you live before the war?

21 A. Mjesaja.

22 Q. Is Mjesaja a mixed neighbourhood with Serbs

23 and Muslims?

24 A. No. It was a purely Muslim village, though

25 around it there were Serbs.

Page 2184

1 Q. Where was your house located in the village?

2 A. My house was some 100 meters, maybe 150

3 meters away from the road, just above the Buk Bijela

4 settlement.

5 Q. Before the war, did you work?

6 A. I did.

7 Q. And where did you work?

8 A. In the Brod furniture factory.

9 Q. When did you go to work for the last time

10 before the war?

11 A. On the 7th of April.

12 Q. And did you actually work that day?

13 A. No, I didn't.

14 Q. Why not?

15 A. Because very few workers arrived at the

16 factory, and we were given orders to go back home, as

17 there was no work for that day.

18 Q. When did the war start in Foca?

19 A. On the 8th of April.

20 Q. Did you hear anything like shelling or

21 shooting?

22 A. Shooting could be heard, though I didn't see

23 anything.

24 Q. In the following months, did you stay in your

25 village?

Page 2185

1 A. Yes, I did.

2 Q. Did you see any soldiers during that time?

3 A. Not in the village, until the village was

4 actually attacked. But as the road was nearby leading

5 towards Gorazde, we could see them passing by in

6 trucks.

7 Q. What kind of soldiers were they; could you

8 make that out?

9 A. At that time, I didn't think about it. They

10 were wearing uniforms. I didn't give the matter any

11 thought then.

12 Q. The Muslim villagers in your village, did

13 they have weapons and did they wear uniforms?

14 A. There were some weapons, but we didn't have

15 uniforms.

16 Q. What kind of weapons; do you know? Was it

17 hunting rifles or automatic weapons?

18 A. There were some automatic rifles, according

19 to what other people said. My children were too

20 small. I didn't have time to show an interest in these

21 things. But there were some automatic rifles as well.

22 Q. Did the Muslim villagers keep these rifles

23 until the outbreak of the war?

24 A. According to what other people said, very few

25 weapons were taken out, though the order had come to

Page 2186

1 surrender them. Some were surrendered, but again

2 according to other people, what other people said, some

3 were taken out, but very few.

4 Q. Who ordered the surrender of weapons; do you

5 know that?

6 A. I don't know exactly, but I do know that

7 Dragan Cosovic would come with them. Who else, I don't

8 know, because the weapons were not surrendered at my

9 house. I didn't go to the spot where the weapons were

10 being surrendered because my daughter was too small for

11 me to be able to go around.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Jovanovic.

13 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

14 I have some kind of distortion in the headphones.

15 Instead of hearing the voice of the witness, I can hear

16 the interpreter. So, if possible, could this be

17 corrected, because there's interference in my

18 headphones between the channels.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: May we ask the registrar to --

20 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] If not, I can

21 follow.

22 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation]

23 Mr. Jovanovic, you have a button on the desk, and it

24 tells you to turn the volume down to the minimum

25 level.

Page 2187

1 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

2 I'll try. I apologise for the interruption.

3 Thank you, Your Honour, and please forgive me

4 for interrupting the examination-in-chief.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. We'll proceed.


7 Q. When was your village attacked?

8 A. On the 3rd of July.

9 Q. Which year?

10 A. 1992.

11 Q. Where were you at that time?

12 A. In the nearby woods behind my house.

13 Q. Why were you in the woods and not in your

14 house?

15 A. Because not just me but all those other

16 people there felt unsafe because the village across the

17 Drina was burning, houses burning could be seen. So

18 one felt better, if one had to die, to die by a bullet

19 than burnt in one's house.

20 Q. Do you know the name of the village that was

21 burning?

22 A. Dum.

23 Q. Was this a Muslim village?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you expect that Mjesaja would also be

Page 2188

1 attacked; was that what you were fearing?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Please don't say any names, but how many

4 people were hiding with you in the woods?

5 A. Nineteen -- no, 21. There were 21 in the

6 group.

7 Q. How many women and children and how many men;

8 do you know that?

9 A. I do, but I need a little time to think it

10 over, to count them up, actually. There were six men,

11 six women, and the rest were children.

12 Q. Would you please have a look at the list in

13 front of you, and without saying the name, can you tell

14 us if any of these people listed there were within your

15 group?

16 A. Yes. Fifty, fifty-one -- just a moment,

17 please. Fifty and fifty-one.

18 Q. Besides your group of people, were other

19 villagers from Mjesaja also hiding in the woods?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Please describe the attack to us.

22 A. At 6.15 in the morning, as we were sleeping

23 in a tent just behind my house, a shot was heard.

24 After some time -- I can't tell you exactly how long --

25 my father-in-law and his brother went out to make

Page 2189

1 coffee, and that is when only 19 remained in the tent.

2 When the shooting started, we withdrew

3 towards Grabic, towards Serb houses, because we felt we

4 would be safer there. We stayed there until nightfall.

5 Q. How long did the shooting last?

6 A. I don't know exactly because, after all, this

7 was almost eight years ago. But for an hour and a

8 half, maybe for two, the shooting lasted and the

9 torching of houses.

10 Q. Could you hear where the shooting came from

11 and where it was directed at?

12 A. From all sides, from all sides the shooting

13 started, and it was directed towards -- simply towards

14 the centre.

15 Q. That is where the Muslim houses were. That's

16 what you said in the beginning?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Could you see the soldiers doing the shooting

19 or could you just hear the shooting?

20 A. No, I couldn't see them. I could just hear

21 the shooting and the smoke coming from the houses.

22 Q. You said that houses were torched. Could you

23 see that or could you just see the smoke?

24 A. Only the smoke and the cracking of the

25 roofs. But the houses close by, Corbo's house, we

Page 2190













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14 the French and English transcripts.













Page 2191

1 could see it burning; we could actually see the flame.

2 But the area of Trosanj there, we couldn't see.

3 Q. Which houses were burnt? All houses in the

4 area or selected houses?

5 A. All the houses were burnt. Only mine was

6 left, where Cosovic is living. He used to live in

7 Dubrovnik. And my house is still standing. Only the

8 upper floor was destroyed.

9 Q. And when was your group found?

10 A. The next day.

11 Q. Was it found by chance or how could it be

12 found?

13 A. Quite by chance, without mentioning the name

14 of this neighbour, because he may also be in danger.

15 He came across us. I'm sorry. He came and he said

16 that we had no choice but to surrender and that we

17 would all be escorted to Montenegro, and that is what

18 we did. We reached Cosovic's house, Dragan Cosovic.

19 He used to work with me in the furniture factory. And

20 from there they escorted us to the workers' barracks in

21 Buk Bijela.

22 Q. Did all 19 of you surrender at that house?

23 A. No. No.

24 Q. Yes. Please can you tell us who was not

25 surrendering and why you split.

Page 2192

1 A. As there was fear that the younger people

2 would be killed, the younger men, the young men went to

3 one side. Among them was my husband; my

4 brother-in-law, (redacted) --

5 Q. Please don't say any names.

6 A. Okay.

7 Q. Among you who surrendered, were there any men

8 at all?

9 A. Yes. My father-in-law and (redacted)

10 (redacted).

11 Q. Please try to say no names. You mentioned

12 Dragan Cosovic. When you met him, was he in uniform

13 and was he armed; and was he alone or were there other

14 soldiers?

15 A. He was armed. He had a weapon. He was in

16 uniform. And there were another two men there who

17 introduced themselves as belonging to the Serb police.

18 Q. Did you know these people from before, and

19 can you tell us who that was?

20 A. No, I didn't know them.

21 Q. You mentioned the men who were with you.

22 What happened to these two men?

23 A. They were taken away, and no precise

24 information ever reached us, though my father-in-law,

25 according to the story of people who were in the KP

Page 2193

1 Dom, on the 17th day of their detention they were taken

2 out for interrogation and they never came back. This

3 applies to my father-in-law.

4 Q. That means you have never heard about these

5 two of your relatives again?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. What do you think happened to them?

8 A. Ninety-nine per cent, they were killed.

9 Q. Were any other of your relatives killed

10 during the events or got missing?

11 A. I don't understand the question. Could you

12 please explain whether you mean on that day or

13 generally in the course of the war.

14 Q. In the course of the war, all together.

15 A. In the course of the war, a large number of

16 members of my family were killed, 25.

17 Q. You said that the women and children were

18 taken to Buk Bijela. How were you taken there?

19 A. They said that we should follow them. Then

20 later on another two or three men arrived. I'm not

21 sure. They said that we should go with them and that a

22 bus would come to take us. But the bus arrived the

23 next day.

24 Q. When you say "men," do you mean soldiers or

25 men in civilian clothing?

Page 2194

1 A. No. They weren't wearing civilian clothing.

2 Soldiers.

3 Q. When did you arrive? Can you say at what

4 approximate time you arrived in Buk Bijela?

5 A. What time. Well, I don't remember the exact

6 time, but I think it was around noon.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the

8 usher, I would like to show the witness Exhibit 11,

9 photo 7416. That's the blow-up version of this photo.

10 Q. Can you tell us what you see?

11 A. I see the huts at Buk Bijela.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Can you put it on the

13 ELMO, please.

14 Q. Can you show us where you were put in Buk

15 Bijela?

16 A. Well, it's difficult for me -- just one

17 moment, please. I'm not quite sure exactly, but I

18 think that it was this building here [indicates].

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: For the record --

20 A. Yes, that's the one, this one here

21 [indicates].

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: For the record, the

23 witness is pointing at the house with a white roof.


25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Right in the middle.

Page 2195



3 Q. Did you see soldiers at Buk Bijela?

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 Q. How many?

6 A. That's a difficult question to answer,

7 because there were -- let me see -- about ten, I would

8 say.

9 Q. Did you know them? Were they local people

10 from Mjesaja or didn't you know them?

11 A. No, I didn't know them. Although people came

12 in uniform. I can't remember the names, but they would

13 come from the village of -- that is to say, two of them

14 were from a village somewhere there, but I can't

15 remember their names.

16 Q. How long did you stay at Buk Bijela?

17 A. One night.

18 Q. While you were in Buk Bijela, were you

19 questioned?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. When did this happen?

22 A. The 4th of July. No, the 5th. I apologise.

23 Q. And who questioned you, and about what?

24 A. I was questioned by Tuta. I can't remember

25 his real name. It was Janko something. I can't

Page 2196

1 remember the surname. What did he ask me? Well, he

2 asked me who did the shooting, who took the weapons

3 away, where the other people were, things like that.

4 That sort of question.

5 Q. Did he mistreat you in any way, abuse you?

6 A. You could put it that way, yes.

7 Q. What did he do?

8 A. Well, first of all he took away my gold and

9 my cigarettes and the money I had. I had a little

10 money. What little I had, he took. Because you would

11 exchange currency, so I don't know how much I had, but

12 I did have a little money.

13 Q. And was he aggressive in any way?

14 A. Yes, he was.

15 Q. Can you describe that?

16 A. Well, yes, I can. Of course I can, although

17 it's difficult for me to talk about those things, and

18 you can't really recount it all, tell it in words.

19 He was -- he spoke to me abusively. He would

20 say, "What do you want, you balijas? What are you

21 doing?" And he would use harsh words.

22 Q. Did you know Tuta from before the war?

23 A. No, I didn't.

24 Q. How did you learn his name or at least his

25 nickname?

Page 2197

1 A. From his friends, because that's how they

2 referred to him.

3 Q. Were you the only one questioned or were the

4 other people also questioned?

5 A. The other ones were questioned as well.

6 Q. Could you see them being led away or did that

7 questioning happen in front of you?

8 A. No. They were led away into other rooms.

9 Q. Any of the women led away, were they -- was

10 any of them sexually assaulted; would you know?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Without saying any name, would you please

13 tell us if this person is on the sheet, and if so,

14 which number?

15 A. Yes. It is number 50.

16 Q. How do you know that? Did she tell you about

17 it?

18 A. No, she didn't tell me. But when I looked at

19 her face, I saw what had happened. She was a girl, and

20 when she came back, she was crying and looked awful.

21 Q. Witness, did you give statements to the

22 personnel of the Prosecutor's office in the past?

23 A. I don't understand your question.

24 Q. Did you speak with people from the

25 Prosecutor's office on previous occasions; that is,

Page 2198

1 give statements to them?

2 A. Yes, I did.

3 Q. Did you mention the sexual assault on number

4 50 before, during these questionings?

5 A. I think I did, yes.

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Now I would like to show

7 the witness her previous statements.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Please go ahead.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The registrar has the

10 statements, I was just told.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Just tell us the date

12 when they were recorded.

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: These exhibits are

14 marked as Exhibit 75 and 76.

15 Q. Would you please look at the Exhibit 75

16 first. Do you see the signature on the first page?

17 The signature on the first page, is that your signature

18 on the bottom of the page? You have to look at the

19 English version.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness also needs

21 to have the English version of this document to check

22 the signature.

23 A. I can't see it here.

24 Q. Yes. It's because you have the translation

25 and not the original.

Page 2199

1 A. Yes. This is my signature, yes.

2 Q. When you look into the middle of this page,

3 you see a date that says: "9 to 11 February 1996." Is

4 that the time that you were interviewed for the first

5 time by the Prosecutor's office?

6 A. Well, I don't know the exact date, but I

7 assume that that was when I made my statement, yes.

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I would like to enter

9 this document into evidence.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: That is Exhibit 75?


12 JUDGE MUMBA: Any objection from the

13 Defence?

14 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your

15 Honour.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar?

17 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] No, Your

18 Honour.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Jovanovic?

20 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your

21 Honour.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well. Can I have the

23 number?

24 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] It will be

25 Exhibit 75 and registered under seal.

Page 2200

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Can we proceed.


3 Q. Will you please look at -- in the English,

4 it's page 4, and it's a paragraph starting with: "I do

5 not think any of us Muslims were physically abused."

6 Or, rather, Witness, before searching for the

7 B/C/S paragraph, I will just ask you: On page 4, in

8 the fourth paragraph in the English version, it is

9 noted that you said: "I do not think that any of us

10 Muslims were physically abused by the Serb soldiers

11 during the questioning at Buk Bijela." So in the

12 statement, there is no mention of sexual assault on

13 Witness Number 50. Do you recall why you hadn't

14 mentioned that on that occasion?

15 A. Well, if you want me to say quite openly, it

16 was a little difficult for me because she was a girl,

17 after all.

18 Q. Does that mean you didn't want to mention

19 this at that time?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. From Buk Bijela, where were you taken next?

22 A. To the secondary school centre.

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the

24 usher, I would like to show another photo to the

25 witness. It's Exhibit 11, Photo 7.418, the blow-up

Page 2201













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14 the French and English transcripts.













Page 2202

1 version.

2 Q. What do you see on this photo?

3 A. The secondary school centre.

4 Q. Is this where you were taken?

5 A. Yes, that's right.

6 Q. Where were you taken within the school; do

7 you know that?

8 A. I don't know exactly the number of the

9 classroom, but it was the last storey, the last floor,

10 I think somewhere here. I don't know the number of the

11 classroom.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It was not visible to me

13 on the monitor; I hope to anybody else.

14 JUDGE HUNT: Not on mine either. Mine is not

15 working.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, obviously not

17 working.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can something be done,

19 because it's important for the accused persons to see

20 what the witness is showing the Court.

21 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Well, the

22 technical booth is looking after the problem. I think

23 we need some seconds, if not minutes, to take care of

24 it.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Maybe we can come back to the

Page 2203

1 exhibit later and we'll proceed.

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, we can continue

3 anyways.

4 Q. When you were taken in the classroom, were

5 you the first people to come into this classroom or

6 were others already there?

7 A. No, we weren't the first to come there.

8 There were other people there on the floor above us who

9 were brought on the previous day -- that is to say, two

10 days before us, because we spent one night in the woods

11 and the other night in Buk Bijela, which makes it the

12 5th.

13 Q. And where did these people come from?

14 A. From Trosanj.

15 Q. Did you know them from before the war?

16 A. Yes, I did.

17 Q. And what ethnicity were they?

18 A. Muslims.

19 Q. Were you taken in that same classroom

20 together with them?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. How many were you then in the classroom

23 altogether?

24 A. Later on, a man and a woman were brought --

25 Corbo was their surname -- and women from Cirmetic

Page 2204

1 [phoen], and then there were 72 of us there.

2 Q. How many men were among the 72?

3 A. Two.

4 Q. Were these old men?

5 A. Yes, they were, yes, yes.

6 Q. How were the living conditions in the school?

7 A. Terrible.

8 Q. How did you sleep, on what?

9 A. On the mattresses. Actually, they were foam

10 mattresses without blankets, without pillows. The

11 living conditions were awful. And as for myself, I

12 didn't bring anything with me, any underclothes, or

13 sanitary towels, or anything like that. Whatever I did

14 take was I took a change of clothing for my daughter.

15 Q. What about the food; was the food

16 sufficient?

17 A. No, it wasn't sufficient.

18 Q. What about the hygienic conditions?

19 A. They were nonexistent; no water, no soap, no

20 shampoo.

21 Q. Do you know who was in charge of the school?

22 A. It was Mitar, but I can't remember his name.

23 Q. Was he a military person or was he a police

24 person or was he a civilian?

25 A. I really can't say.

Page 2205

1 Q. What did he wear?

2 A. I don't remember.

3 Q. Did you see any soldiers at the school, that

4 they were housed there or that they were coming there?

5 A. Yes, there were some soldiers there.

6 Q. Were you allowed to leave the school?

7 A. No, I wasn't.

8 Q. Did someone tell that you, or why did you

9 think you were not allowed?

10 A. Well, I think because at the entrance to the

11 school building there was a guard wearing a uniform.

12 Q. Did any of you ever try to leave the school?

13 A. No, we didn't.

14 Q. Why not?

15 A. Well, how could we try and leave? That's a

16 difficult question to answer. Because we were all

17 women and children there mostly. We were there in

18 families, and you couldn't escape without being seen,

19 because you'd have to leave in a group with your

20 family.

21 Q. Were girls and women abused in the school?

22 A. Yes, they were.

23 Q. Were you abused yourself?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Can you tell us what happened? Can you

Page 2206

1 tell -- for instance, speak about the first night?

2 A. The first night. Well, the first night -- I

3 don't know exactly what time it was, but one of them

4 came and said, "You, you, and you, come with me." And

5 amongst them were the following individuals. Just let

6 me take a look at the list. Number 88, BD [sic],

7 number 90, number 87. And the others aren't here. We

8 left and they took us off to another classroom, and

9 there were four men there.

10 Q. Please continue.

11 A. And when we went into that room, Tuta -- that

12 is to say, each of them took one girl or woman. Tuta

13 told me to take my clothes off, but I refused, and he

14 said, "Take your clothes off," harshly. And I said, "I

15 won't." And he slapped me twice. And as I saw that

16 there was no way out for me, then of course I had to

17 take my clothes off.

18 Q. When you had taken your clothes off, what did

19 happen?

20 A. When I took my clothes off, he took his

21 clothes off; just the lower part, not everything. He

22 just took his trousers off. And he raped me there and

23 then.

24 Q. When you say "raped me," what do you mean by

25 this?

Page 2207

1 A. Well, I was forced to have sex without my

2 will, with somebody I didn't know, with a man I had no

3 feelings towards. It was an absurdity. You can't make

4 love with anybody like that.

5 Q. And when you say he made sex, does it mean he

6 put his penis into your vagina?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Do you know what happened to the other women

9 in that same room? Were they also raped?

10 A. Well, probably they were, but I couldn't

11 expect that anything like that would happen to me, so I

12 just withdrew into myself.

13 Q. You have named those who were taken -- those

14 girls and women who were taken out with you at that

15 first night. Are you sure about those you named? You

16 said 90, DB, 88, 87. Are you sure about them?

17 A. Just one moment, please. Let me have a

18 look. 90, quite certainly; BD [sic], definitely; 75,

19 quite sure; and 88. I'm sure of that.

20 Q. Was that the only occasion that you were

21 taken out of the classroom into another classroom while

22 in the high school?

23 A. I don't understand your question. Could you

24 repeat it, please.

25 Q. How often did that happen that you were taken

Page 2208

1 out of the classroom, taken somewhere else for sexual

2 abuse?

3 A. That's a difficult question, but I would say

4 more than 150 times in the course of those 40 days.

5 Q. When you say "40 days," do you mean the

6 entire time of your detention? That is also other

7 places, isn't it?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. How long did you stay in the high school?

10 A. I don't know exactly, but it was probably 15

11 to 20 days, because those were not days, you know, for

12 me; they were years.

13 Q. And can you tell us how often you were taken

14 out during these 15 to 20 days in the high school, how

15 often were you taken out for rape?

16 A. How many times; is that what you're asking

17 me?

18 Q. Yes. I mean, for instance, each night or

19 only one or the other night? What was the frequency?

20 A. Well, I was taken out every night and every

21 day. How many times, I can't say exactly.

22 Q. Were the other girls and women also taken out

23 in the same manner?

24 A. Yes, they were, but the younger ones.

25 Q. Can you describe the pattern how the girls

Page 2209

1 and women, including you, were taken out of the

2 classroom where you stayed in the group? Were you

3 called out by name? Were you just pointed out?

4 A. It depended. There were both. I can't

5 really remember. There were those who came on repeated

6 occasions and they would take out the same girls. And

7 then he would come in, look around the room, and just

8 say, "You, you, and you, come out."

9 Q. And were you taken out alone from the

10 classroom or were always other girls or women with you?

11 A. In fact, one, two, three. It depended.

12 Q. Where were you taken all those times? Were

13 you always taken to another classroom or were you also

14 taken out somewhere else? We're speaking about the

15 high school only.

16 A. In the high school, I was only taken to other

17 classrooms. I was not taken outside.

18 Q. And when you were taken into classrooms, were

19 you always raped in the way you have described before?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You have already mentioned Tuta, who raped

22 you, but can you also -- do you recall any others who

23 raped you at the high school?

24 A. At the high school, of course I don't

25 remember the names, because a lot of time has passed

Page 2210

1 since. There were others as well. I don't know the

2 names.

3 Q. When you were called out or when other girls

4 and women were called out, did they ever dare to refuse

5 to go with the soldiers?

6 A. No, they did not. I assume that the first

7 time -- I don't know. I didn't talk to them, so I

8 can't say, but I assume that they were slapped like I

9 was, by Tuta, or something like that, so that they

10 didn't dare oppose them. I tried once, and I didn't

11 again.

12 Q. Did you see the girls and women who were

13 taken out, did you see them return to the classroom?

14 A. Yes, I did.

15 Q. In what state were they?

16 A. They were all sorrowful, tearful, though they

17 didn't dare cry, but they looked awful.

18 Q. You said that you were taken only to

19 classrooms and not out of the school. Would you know

20 if any other of the girls or women were taken out to

21 different places than classrooms?

22 A. 87, DB, 88 were taken outside the school.

23 Q. How do you know that?

24 A. I know because those of us who were taken to

25 the classroom would stay there for 10, 15, 20 minutes

Page 2211

1 on the outside, and they would stay away for longer

2 periods of time: two, three, maybe four hours.

3 Q. So you assumed they were taken somewhere

4 else, or did they tell you?

5 A. No, they didn't tell me. It's just my

6 assumption, because I never saw them again later. At

7 least with many of the women on this list, I had no

8 contact.

9 Q. Did the rapes, these constant rapes, affect

10 your physical and mental health in any way while you

11 were at the school?

12 A. Well, of course they did. I had problems

13 with insomnia, I took medicines, sedatives. My

14 menstrual cycle was irregular, and it still is to this

15 day. I don't have it, actually, anymore. I don't have

16 my periods. And I've got a disease that I cannot cure.

17 Q. Do you need a little break or can we --

18 A. No. No. I have to be strong.

19 Q. What you mentioned, the sedatives and these

20 other effects, this is -- you are speaking about what

21 you had after your release, isn't it?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Do you still use chemicals?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Did anything happen to the men who were

Page 2212













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14 the French and English transcripts.













Page 2213

1 together with you in the classroom, I mean the Muslim

2 men?

3 A. Yes. An old man was beaten, one of them,

4 there in the classroom, in front of the children. He

5 was all covered in blood.

6 Q. From the school, where were you taken next?

7 A. To Partizan, the sports centre.

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the

9 usher, I would like to test if we can use the monitor

10 now, because I would have to go to the next photo, and

11 I would like to continue first to finish that first

12 photo.

13 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The ELMO is

14 still not working, so you have to press the video

15 monitor button in order to be able to see.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The video monitor is

17 working.

18 Q.

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Before we move to

20 Partizan, Witness, can you have a look on the video of

21 the high school photo and show again where you were

22 taken?

23 A. I think that they were these classrooms. I

24 don't know the number of the classroom [indicates]. on

25 the third floor. Or actually, this was the ground

Page 2214

1 floor, first floor. On the second floor, therefore.

2 Q. And did the classroom face the street in

3 front of the school?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. I would like to show you another photo. It's

6 Exhibit 11 again and it's photo 7302. Can you show us

7 what is on this photo?

8 A. Partizan.

9 Q. And can you tell us where you were taken

10 within Partizan? Can you show us on the ELMO?

11 A. I don't know how I could show you. This was

12 the entrance [indicates], and we were here in this room

13 [indicates].

14 Q. How many rooms were in Partizan altogether?

15 A. All 72 of us that were there were in this one

16 area where there were -- I don't know how to explain

17 it. It was like a place where they kept equipment for

18 gym. This was in another room, and then here in this

19 corner on the ground floor was a toilet [indicates].

20 Q. When you were transferred to Partizan, did

21 anybody tell you why you were taken there and for what

22 reason?

23 A. No, no one told us. They simply said that we

24 should get ready, there was a truck waiting in front of

25 the school, there was a truck -- a covered truck

Page 2215

1 there. They didn't tell us where we were going, nor

2 did any one of us ask, because we couldn't say

3 anything. They were very arrogant towards us.

4 Q. How were the conditions at Partizan?

5 A. Awful.

6 Q. When you arrived at Partizan, was the place

7 clean for use?

8 A. No, it wasn't. We cleaned it up, because

9 there was a lot of garbage. It had already been

10 abandoned. It used to have been a sports club. I

11 never went there before. But it was dirty, so we women

12 cleaned it up a little bit, collected and threw away

13 the garbage. We slept on the exercise mattresses lined

14 up on both sides.

15 Q. What about the food in Partizan? Were you

16 fed regularly and sufficiently?

17 A. No, it was not sufficient. We were given

18 their remains, in fact, what they couldn't eat. There

19 were times when for two days, we got nothing, and what

20 we did get was far below what we needed.

21 Q. What about the sanitary conditions?

22 A. Again, they were terrible. There was no hot

23 water, no shampoo, no soap; in fact, nothing.

24 Q. Did these conditions affect the health of

25 especially the children in the hall?

Page 2216

1 A. Of course it did.

2 Q. Can you explain, for instance, what effect it

3 had on your baby child?

4 A. After we left, when we were taken to Novi

5 Pazar and from there I went on -- the Red Cross

6 escorted us. I'm not going to say where. For two

7 years, I had problems there. The child had a fever.

8 He kept saying, "Mommy, Mommy, my stomach aches."

9 Q. Were you allowed to leave Partizan or were

10 you detained there?

11 A. I couldn't go anywhere with my two small

12 children. Where could I go?

13 Q. Were you allowed to go into town

14 occasionally?

15 A. Yes, I was allowed to go because, after all,

16 even among them, there were good people. One of them

17 was a guard; two of them, in fact. One of them brought

18 me some clothes for the children, and another one gave

19 me some money to go and buy bread for the children.

20 Q. Did you know this person who gave you money

21 to buy bread and let you go, did you know him from

22 before the war?

23 A. Yes. He was my school mate from secondary

24 school.

25 Q. Were you the only woman who was allowed to go

Page 2217

1 and buy some bread?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You mentioned already guards. Were there

4 guards constantly at Partizan?

5 A. No, they were not inside. They were outside,

6 outside the door.

7 Q. And how many guards were they?

8 A. Usually one, though others would come by.

9 But there was only one guard, actually. But they

10 changed, of course. How they changed, I don't know. I

11 don't remember that. There was one per shift; that's

12 what I'm saying. But how many were working altogether

13 during that time, I cannot remember.

14 Q. Were the guards in uniform?

15 A. Yes, they were.

16 Q. What kind of uniform?

17 A. Military uniforms, their kind of uniforms.

18 Q. Did soldiers continue to take out women from

19 this place?

20 A. They did.

21 Q. From the first day onwards until the end?

22 A. Yes, throughout that period. Every day, the

23 same scene would be repeated.

24 Q. Did the guards try to stop the soldiers?

25 A. Yes. On one occasion, one of them tried to

Page 2218

1 stop the soldiers, but they said that they had been

2 given certificates from the chief of police. Now, what

3 was his name? May I look at these papers, at these

4 documents?

5 Q. What do you mean? I don't have any documents

6 like this. You mean the statement?

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, she wants to look at her

8 statements maybe.

9 A. No, not the statement. Simply, I want to

10 look up the name of that chief of police. I can't

11 remember the name now.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we just have an

13 explanation? What documents are these the witness --

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I think the witness is

15 referring to the statements, to her previous

16 statements, because there are no documents.

17 A. Yes.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

19 A. Yes, that's what I'm referring to.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, she can.

21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. You can have a

22 look at your statement, and I'll try to find the spot

23 where you say it.

24 Q. Do you mean you want to mention the name of

25 the chief of police?

Page 2219

1 A. Yes, because really I can't remember it now.

2 I simply cannot think about these things because I was

3 exposed to so much torture. But I'm proud to be here.

4 Let the world know what they did.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Would the Defence object

6 if I put a name to her, because it's in the statements

7 anyways.

8 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] The Defence

9 of the accused Kunarac has no objection, my learned

10 friend.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you.

12 Q. Witness, do you mean Dragan Gagovic?

13 A. Yes, Dragan Gagovic, yes, yes. I was

14 thinking of him, because he was the chief of police.

15 They said that he had given them

16 certificates, but none of us asked whether they had

17 such certificates or not. We simply had to do what

18 they told us to do. And on this certificate,

19 apparently, it was written that they needed sex to have

20 better morale for the battlefront.

21 Q. If I understand you correctly, that is

22 something you heard.

23 A. Yes. This was since I was close to the

24 door. It was nighttime and they were shouting, they

25 weren't talking quietly, and this could be heard.

Page 2220

1 Q. Who was shouting at whom? Who was having

2 this conversation, actually?

3 A. I don't know who it was, but one of them, one

4 of those guards who opposed them taking women out, he

5 cried out, "What are you doing to those women? Enough

6 is enough." And they replied that they needed sex and

7 that Dragan Gagovic had given them this in writing,

8 that they needed it in order to be able to be better.

9 Q. When the soldiers came to take out women, can

10 you describe the pattern, what happened?

11 A. Could you explain what you mean by that

12 question?

13 Q. When the soldiers came, what happened? What

14 did they do?

15 A. Well, sometimes they would come one by one,

16 sometimes they would come in a group. They would

17 simply enter the room. In most cases, they would say,

18 "You, you, you, get up and come on." Sometimes they

19 used the names. And those that were pointed at had to

20 get up and to follow them.

21 Q. Did any woman ever try to refuse to go with

22 the soldiers?

23 A. No, they didn't.

24 Q. Were you yourself taken out in this manner?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2221

1 Q. Where were you taken?

2 A. They took us all over the place; burned-down

3 houses, various apartments. Sometimes I was taken to

4 one and the same apartments. I don't remember whether

5 they were the same people who took us, but they took us

6 all over the place. To this tailor's house, they took

7 me there twice. All over the place.

8 Q. How were you taken to these places? Did you

9 walk or were you driven?

10 A. Mostly on foot. Only the last day, that was

11 the 12th of August, the day prior to when we were

12 supposed to be released, I was taken by bus to Buk

13 Bijela. But everything else in town was on foot.

14 Q. Were you taken alone or were always some

15 other women with you?

16 A. There were other women too.

17 Q. And when you arrived in these various places,

18 what did happen?

19 A. What happened? Usually, when we would reach

20 that building, that house, first of all, one by one,

21 the women had to take their clothes off and have a

22 shower, because they probably had a subconscious fear

23 that they could contract a disease. However, they

24 didn't have a bath. Then among them, three, four, or

25 five naked women would walk around, walk about, and

Page 2222

1 then they would take the women, one by one, into a

2 room.

3 Q. And what happened in the room?

4 A. Well, as usual, rape in their own way. It

5 wasn't sex with pleasure, it was with fury. They were

6 taking it out on us.

7 Q. While this occurred, have you ever been

8 beaten?

9 A. In Partizan, yes. One of them -- I don't

10 remember the date -- he slapped me, and he asked me

11 should he slaughter my daughter. I was quiet. Then he

12 slapped me. When he left, he turned around towards all

13 of us in the doorway and he said he would come back and

14 kill us all. Fortunately, he never appeared again.

15 Q. But that's in the hall. I was asking, were

16 you ever beaten during the rapes?

17 A. No, no, they didn't beat us.

18 Q. Soldiers who took you out of Partizan, were

19 they the same soldiers as in the high school?

20 A. I don't understand the question. You mean

21 the same persons? What do you mean? Could you explain

22 that, please?

23 Q. Yes, the same persons. You mentioned Tuta.

24 Were they the same persons, or were they additional

25 persons, or completely different persons?

Page 2223













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14 the French and English transcripts.













Page 2224

1 A. The difference was that there were many, many

2 more of them over there, and among them were those who

3 came before. Some of them I knew by sight, though I

4 can't remember their names. But probably if I were to

5 see them, I would recognise them. But there were far

6 more of them in Partizan than there were in the

7 secondary school.

8 Q. Witness, I have noticed that sometimes when

9 you answer my questions, you smile, or when you

10 consider, you smile. Are you nervous?

11 A. Yes. But there's something even more

12 important. I'm proud to be here. Let the world know

13 what they did.

14 Q. And do you know why you smile? Is it because

15 you are nervous or is it a habit that when it's --

16 A. No. It's my habit, which I have acquired in

17 the country I'm living in at present. Because I had a

18 lot of problems because of my appearance, my face,

19 because over there it's normal to smile. Even today

20 they would tell me to smile.

21 Q. You have mentioned Tuta, who raped you in the

22 high school. Can you tell me names or nicknames of

23 those who raped you at Partizan?

24 A. I can't remember all the names. Among them

25 were Zelja; Zaga; that gentleman over there, who's

Page 2225

1 looking at me right now, in the last row; and many

2 others, but I really can't remember them any longer.

3 Q. You've just pointed out a person in the last

4 row. I didn't really see who it was. Can you say

5 where this person you pointed out is sitting, when you,

6 for instance, start to count from the right to the

7 left?

8 A. From the right to the left, both of them, on

9 both sides.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Mr. Jovanovic.

11 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

12 I have been asked on behalf of my colleagues to express

13 the concern of the Defence because of the way in which

14 identification is being done in the courtroom. If I

15 may, I should like to explain in a few words our

16 concern, which has two main aspects to it.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Go ahead, please.

18 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] The first

19 aspect has to do with the fact that, thanks to our

20 learned friends from the Prosecution and the statements

21 disclosed to the Defence in the course of the

22 preparations for this case, the witness who is in court

23 today never mentioned some of the accused, whereas for

24 some of the accused --

25 JUDGE MUMBA: [No microphone]

Page 2226

1 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

2 Honour. In her statements, to be quite precise,

3 because there are several statements --

4 THE WITNESS: Not several. Two, sir.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Proceed.

6 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] So that is

7 the first point we should like to make. Because in

8 those statements, some of the accused are not

9 mentioned, and others are described in a totally

10 different way. According to information at the

11 disposal of the Defence, conveyed to us by the

12 Prosecution, no identification or recognition has been

13 carried out in any other way.

14 A second point why the Defence is concerned

15 is the following: The witness who is before us today

16 was preceded by other witnesses who are members of the

17 same family.

18 A third point. Please don't misunderstand

19 me. This is no objection addressed to the Trial

20 Chamber.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Before you go ahead, what is

22 wrong with this witness having been preceded by other

23 witnesses, members of her family? What's wrong with

24 that? According to your objection, what is the point

25 of objection?

Page 2227

1 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

2 the point of the objection of the Defence is that the

3 witness has been informed -- or rather that is our

4 view, and we will explain later. The witness has been

5 told how to identify certain persons. That is our

6 objection. Let me underline once again.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. You can deal with that in

8 cross-examination of the witness. You can put it to

9 her. Maybe let's listen to the third point before we

10 can discuss. Go ahead.

11 Can you just wait, Mr. Prodanovic, for

12 Mr. Jovanovic to complete his list, please?

13 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I should like

14 to repeat once again that this is in no way meant as

15 any criticism of the Trial Chamber, but I feel that

16 there is a technical problem which, in the opinion of

17 the Defence, can have certain undesired consequences.

18 Every day you ask the accused whether they can hear and

19 understand and follow the proceedings in a language

20 they understand. On that occasion we learn who is

21 sitting where and the order in which they are sitting

22 here behind us.

23 So as I have said, this is not any kind of

24 criticism, but in future, if this could be done in

25 another way, without addressing the accused by name,

Page 2228

1 because in this way the accused stand up in response to

2 your question and answer your question. Those would be

3 my objections, Your Honour.

4 THE WITNESS: May I say something?

5 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no, Witness. Just wait.

6 You'll be given time to say whatever you want to say.

7 Mr. Prodanovic.

8 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

9 to add to what has been said by my colleague Jovanovic

10 with respect to the accused Kunarac. In the second

11 statement given by the witness, she could not at all

12 describe Kunarac. [Interpretation in French only].

13 JUDGE MUMBA: We've got French. The latter

14 part, I don't know. We've crossed over, so I can't

15 follow what you're saying. Just wait.

16 Yes, maybe you can proceed. Maybe we can get

17 the English.

18 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] As I was

19 saying, Your Honour, in the second statement the

20 witness could not describe the accused Kunarac at all

21 in any way as regards his appearance. In her first

22 statement she described him in a way that not one of

23 the witnesses who have spoken about him have described

24 him. So these are the reasons, in addition to those

25 mentioned by my colleague Jovanovic, why the Defence is

Page 2229

1 objecting to the identification and recognition

2 procedure.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, I see Mr. Kolesar on his

4 feet. Yes, please.

5 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in

6 addition to what has been said by my colleagues

7 regarding the actual procedure, I should like to add

8 that the way in which an attempt is being made to

9 identify persons who did the rapes, and two of the

10 three were never mentioned, I think it is absolutely

11 inappropriate and it is not acceptable in any criminal

12 proceeding, so it should not be allowed here either.

13 We know how identification and recognition of suspects

14 is done.

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE HUNT: Surely all of those objections

17 go only to the weight to be given to the

18 identification. That's certainly my view of it. It

19 may be that all of your objections will demonstrate

20 that we should not accept the evidence, but that

21 doesn't stop the witness from giving it.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. In addition, the other

23 points mentioned can be dealt with in cross-examination

24 of this witness by yourselves. You can point out what

25 is said in the statement, you can point out that --

Page 2230

1 mention anybody and things like that. That is what you

2 deal with in cross-examination. Then as my colleague

3 has said, you deal with them even in the closing

4 arguments.

5 Prosecution, I see that we have --

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: -- our break by I think six

8 minutes. Anyway, we will adjourn for our break and

9 proceed at 11.35 hours.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, with your

11 apologies, I think this is now not the right moment to

12 stop. I mean, she has said I recognise two, two of the

13 people in the last row. I think shouldn't we ask her

14 and confirm who she means? I mean, that's --

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Prosecution, it doesn't matter

17 really. We can take our break and then she can come

18 and do the identification or recognition later.

19 --- Recess taken at 11.07 a.m.

20 --- On resuming at 11.39 a.m.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Prosecution is

22 proceeding with the examination-in-chief.


24 Q. Witness, before the break you said that you

25 do not know the names, except for a few witnesses, of

Page 2231

1 those who raped you. But you spontaneously said that

2 you recognised two of the people in the last row as

3 them. Would you please, to make sure who you mean,

4 would you please look again and point out, from their

5 position, how they sit, who it is you are recognising?

6 Please start from the window, going down, so that is

7 from the right to the left. On the right to the left,

8 how you see it.

9 A. First of all, sitting there is the guard.

10 Then the second place, so that is to say the first

11 accused, I am 100-per-cent certain that it is him. And

12 the last one this way, if we count the number of people

13 sitting there, then he would be the fifth in line from

14 the window this way.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: For the record, the

16 witness is pointing out the accused Zoran Vukovic and

17 as well pointing out the accused Dragoljub Kunarac.

18 A. Yes.


20 Q. Witness, do you know the name of the

21 person -- did you know the name of the person you

22 pointed out as the second one sitting there, I mean the

23 second one next to the guard?

24 A. How do you mean, did I know? Did I know him

25 from before; is that what you mean?

Page 2232

1 Q. Yes, yes, that is what I mean.

2 A. No, I didn't know him before.

3 Q. And did you know his name during the events?

4 A. Well, at the moment, I don't remember. But

5 most of all, they would refer to each other by their

6 nicknames. They didn't use their real names.

7 Q. And would you know any nickname of this

8 person you have pointed out?

9 A. I don't know, because I can't remember. A

10 lot of time has gone by since then.

11 Q. And coming to this other gentleman you have

12 pointed out as sitting as number 5, do you know his

13 name now or his nickname?

14 A. Dragan. I can't remember his surname or his

15 nickname, but -- yes, yes, it's Zaga, Zaga.

16 Q. Did you know Zaga before the war?

17 A. No, I did not.

18 Q. Witness, do you recall that you once were

19 shown a photo board with photos of several men during

20 an interview that was taken by the Prosecutor's

21 office?

22 A. Yes, I do.

23 Q. Did you at that time point someone out?

24 Could you recognise anyone at that time?

25 A. Well, as far as that goes, I didn't

Page 2233

1 personally recognise them, but I said whether I had

2 seen them or not. Because the photographs were black

3 and white ones, I said that I wasn't sure, but he

4 appeared similar. I wasn't sure whether it was that

5 person I actually knew or whether he reminded me of

6 someone, he looked like someone else.

7 Q. Witness, why is it now that you recognise

8 the people? What makes you recognise them? Is it

9 easier to see someone live than on a photo?

10 A. Well, of course it's easier to recognise

11 someone when you see them live than on a photograph,

12 because at that moment when I saw them for the first

13 time, they looked quite different. They were

14 not shaven, they had longer hair. The gentleman

15 sitting second in line from that end had slightly

16 longer hair, but this other one, Kunarac, is the same

17 as he was.

18 Q. Coming to the person sitting as number 2, did

19 he take you out from Partizan?

20 A. Yes, he did.

21 Q. When did that happen?

22 A. I don't remember the date, nor do I remember

23 where he took me, I don't remember the place, because

24 it wasn't once; it was many, many times, and I can't

25 remember anymore the date or the house he took me to.

Page 2234













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Page 2235

1 Q. Was he alone when he took you or was he with

2 other soldiers?

3 A. Well, I don't remember whether he came alone

4 or whether there were more of them. As I say, a lot of

5 time has gone by. And also from a long, long time, I

6 had difficulty sleeping, and so I wanted to forget

7 about it all as quickly as possible. So I can't answer

8 your question, whether he came alone or with several of

9 them. He knows that best himself.

10 Q. And how often did he take you out,

11 approximately? Only a very few times or quite often?

12 A. I can't tell you. If I were to tell -- if

13 I -- as I have to tell the truth and I wish to tell the

14 truth, then I can't give you an exact answer to that

15 question.

16 Q. And did he sexually assault you?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What did he do to you?

19 A. Well, I can't describe it in detail because

20 it was several times, but I assume that it was -- that

21 is to say, he ordered me to take my clothes off, and he

22 had sex in his own way.

23 Q. And against your will?

24 A. Please, madam, if over a period of 40 days

25 you have sex with someone, with several individuals, do

Page 2236

1 you really think that that is with your own will? And

2 people who deal in professional prostitution, do you

3 consider that they have sex as many times? Can you

4 answer my question, please?

5 JUDGE MUMBA: No, Witness. Counsel is not

6 here to answer your questions. You simply explain to

7 counsel and you answer counsel's questions.


9 Q. And you have pointed out the other gentleman,

10 and you said this is Zaga. Can you tell me how often

11 he came to Partizan?

12 A. The second person, you mean?

13 Q. The fifth person from the right, Zaga.

14 A. Yes. What did you ask me? What was the

15 question?

16 Q. Did he take you out of Partizan, and how

17 often, if you remember?

18 A. Yes, he did take me out, and he took me to a

19 tailor's house on two occasions. I remember that.

20 Whether he took me any more times, I really can't say,

21 but I do remember those two times, because I remember

22 the house, the material in the house, so I remember

23 that.

24 Q. Do you recall where this house was situated

25 in relation to the Aladza mosque?

Page 2237

1 A. Well, not far from the Aladza mosque. I

2 can't tell you exactly whether it was 100, 150 meters,

3 but it was a maximum of 200 meters. It wasn't that far

4 away, but that is the maximum distance.

5 Q. And when you were taken to this house, was

6 the Aladza mosque still standing? Did it still exist?

7 A. The first time it did. The second time I'm

8 not quite sure.

9 Q. And did he -- did Zaga himself take you out

10 of Partizan on both occasions?

11 A. I don't remember whether it was him or there

12 were more of them, because it was a great stress for me

13 from one day to the next. But generally speaking, he

14 was in the house. I know that for sure. And he raped.

15 Q. When you were taken there for the first time,

16 were you taken alone, or was another woman or were

17 several women with you?

18 A. Two more women.

19 Q. Would you please look at the list and tell us

20 if they are on the list.

21 A. 105 and 90.

22 Q. And do you recall how you were taken to the

23 house? On foot or by car? Do you recall that?

24 A. I once again repeat: At no time while I was

25 in Foca, while I was in detention, they didn't take me

Page 2238

1 once by car. Just to Buk Bijela I was taken by bus,

2 but otherwise we went on foot.

3 Q. And when you were in the house for the first

4 time, in this tailor's house, what happened when you

5 arrived there?

6 A. I don't know now -- I don't remember whether

7 there were three of them and whether they came to get

8 us or just one of them came. I really couldn't say

9 now. I don't remember anymore. But when we went into

10 the house, the two other women went to other rooms and

11 he took me to another room.

12 Q. When you say "he," whom do you mean?

13 A. I mean Zaga.

14 Q. And when you were in the room with him, what

15 did he do?

16 A. He ordered me to take my clothes off, which I

17 did, and then he took his clothes off and he started

18 raping me.

19 Q. Was it painful? Was he rough?

20 A. Yes, of course he was.

21 Q. On that first occasion, was he the only man

22 who raped you or did other men rape you as well?

23 A. On that occasion there was only him. It was

24 only him.

25 Q. Were other soldiers at the house as well?

Page 2239

1 A. No. As far as I remember, there were only

2 the three of them.

3 Q. Did you see Zaga interact with these other

4 soldiers? Did you see them speak to each other?

5 A. I don't know. I don't remember.

6 Q. Can you say something about the relationship

7 of Zaga to these other soldiers? Was he superior to

8 them or equal?

9 A. No. I would say that he was a little above

10 them, because -- well, that's the feeling I got, at

11 least.

12 Q. On that occasion, the first time you were at

13 the tailor's house, how did it end? Who took you back?

14 A. I don't remember who, which one, but one of

15 them did, whether it was him or some of his friends.

16 He knows that, but I don't remember.

17 Q. Do you know if number 90 and number 105 were

18 also raped on that same occasion? Did you talk about

19 it?

20 A. No, I didn't. Whether they were or not,

21 well, I don't know, because I didn't see those two

22 individuals afterwards.

23 Q. What does that mean, you didn't see them

24 afterwards? You mean after your release?

25 A. Yes, after we were released. For a time I

Page 2240

1 was with -- I had contacts with 105, but for some time

2 now I haven't heard from her. And it is very difficult

3 to talk about things like that. It is very, very

4 difficult to discuss such matters, because it was a

5 great stress, and when you talk about it, it's very

6 difficult.

7 Q. You mentioned that you were taken there

8 another time to this tailor's house. Do you recall

9 when that was?

10 A. No, I don't remember.

11 Q. And were you taken alone or were other women

12 with you on that occasion?

13 A. Well, I don't remember who was with me the

14 second time. I don't remember. But I was never taken

15 off alone.

16 Q. And do you recall who took you this time to

17 the house?

18 A. No, I don't remember.

19 Q. Was Zaga present at the house on this

20 occasion, on this second time?

21 A. Yes, he was.

22 Q. And what happened when you came to the house?

23 A. Well, he once again ordered us -- that is to

24 say, I was alone. What happened to the others, I don't

25 know, the others with me. But he ordered me to go into

Page 2241

1 the room, and when I went into the room he told me to

2 take my clothes off, he took his clothes off, and he

3 began doing what he did.

4 Q. That is?

5 A. Rape.

6 Q. Besides the two accused you have already

7 mentioned, who else took you out from Partizan?

8 A. Tuta. I can't remember the names of the

9 others.

10 Q. Do you recall when you were taken out for the

11 first time?

12 A. Who do you mean, and where from? Do you mean

13 from Partizan or the secondary school or where? Could

14 you explain to me what you mean?

15 Q. From Partizan. When you were taken out for

16 the first time from Partizan, do you recall this

17 incident?

18 A. Well, not in detail for me to be able to

19 explain what house it was and all that. I really

20 couldn't tell you. I don't know.

21 Q. Do you recall that you ever were taken out

22 with the witness which is listed here as number 48?

23 A. Yes. I remember when they took her to a

24 burnt-down house. Who was there, I don't know, but the

25 two of us were there. And when we returned from there,

Page 2242

1 we were all black from -- sooty, especially myself. We

2 were dirty from all the soot and from all the

3 burnt-down things. And there was a room there that

4 hadn't burnt down to the ground, whereas the other --

5 everything else had. It was somewhere in Gornje Polje,

6 but I can't remember exactly which house it was.

7 Q. Do you remember when you were taken out for

8 the last time? Do you remember when that was and what

9 happened?

10 A. Well, of course I remember, naturally. It

11 was one of my worst moments when I was taken away,

12 myself and number -- number 90, when we were taken to

13 the stadium and when many, many people were there. I

14 don't know all the numbers. And they took us off later

15 on by bus. The bus was parked in front of the cinema

16 and they took us off to Buk Bijela.

17 Q. When did that happen?

18 A. On the 12th of August.

19 Q. How do you remember this date so well?

20 A. I remember it because it was the one but

21 last -- the last day, the 13th of August, we were

22 escorted to Novi Pazar, and that was one of the most

23 painful days, because at the stadium many of them were

24 exchanged -- they took turns, they took turns, and I

25 went to the bus. I don't know even the nickname or

Page 2243

1 anything else. But when they took us off towards Buk

2 Bijela, I thought that I would never return from there

3 alive. But, luckily, God stepped -- we were exchanged.

4 Q. Was it soldiers who took you to the stadium?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did you recognise any of them?

7 A. No, I didn't.

8 Q. Were they local soldiers or were they from

9 further away?

10 A. At the stadium, you mean, or, generally

11 speaking, whether there were any? I didn't quite

12 understand your question. Could you clarify what you

13 mean? Do you mean whether only the local soldiers

14 would come, or what, or whether others came from

15 elsewhere?

16 Q. We're talking now about the incident in the

17 stadium and afterwards in Buk Bijela, so I refer now,

18 with all my questions, to this incident. Those

19 soldiers in the stadium, were they locals or from other

20 places?

21 A. Well, I really don't remember whether they

22 were from there or from other parts, from Montenegro,

23 Serbia. I really don't remember that. But all I do

24 know is that there were those amongst them who raped

25 me. Some of them had Montenegrin and Serbian accents.

Page 2244

1 As to who they actually were there at the stadium, I

2 don't really remember.

3 Q. And how many soldiers were in the stadium?

4 Could you estimate how many?

5 A. How many? Many.

6 Q. On that occasion, were you raped in the open

7 or were you taken to, let's say, the locker cabins?

8 A. No, in the open at the stadium, on the

9 stairs.

10 Q. Were you raped by one soldier after the other

11 or were you raped by several soldiers at the same time?

12 A. Well, it was like this: They divided

13 themselves up. Some of them would come up for oral

14 sex. Others would anal -- sit from behind, so that

15 there were always two of them at the same time.

16 Q. How long did that last?

17 A. Well, I don't know exactly how long. Perhaps

18 an hour and a half, maybe two hours.

19 Q. And what happened to Number 90?

20 A. Well, the same thing. I can only suppose

21 that it was the same, because she was a little taller

22 than me. I couldn't really pay attention to what was

23 happening to her, because I was completely helpless

24 myself and just thought what would happen to me after

25 all of that.

Page 2245













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Page 2246

1 Q. You said that you were afterwards taken to

2 Buk Bijela. Were you raped there as well?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. By many soldiers or only one?

5 A. Four.

6 Q. And what about Number 90?

7 A. Well, the same thing happened to her. I

8 don't know how many times she was raped, but she was

9 taken off to another room as well.

10 Q. When you were returned, how did you feel?

11 A. Very bad.

12 Q. You said that you were released on the 13th

13 of August. Can you tell us what happened on the 13th

14 of August and how you were taken away?

15 A. Do you want me to -- that is to say, is your

16 question how we were transported from Foca; is that

17 your question?

18 Q. Yes, that's my question.

19 A. Well, in the morning, that is, the day

20 before, it was the 12th of August, they said that we

21 would go to Macedonia, and they said that a bus would

22 come in front of the Partizan. However, the bus didn't

23 come. And where they went from, I don't know, but one

24 of them -- and I once again say that among them, there

25 were good people too -- they looked for another bus.

Page 2247

1 He found a bus. And then a lot of time went by before

2 they found a driver. They didn't have a driver for the

3 bus. So he managed to find a driver in the afternoon.

4 Janko, who was a Maglic bus driver, I can't remember

5 his surname, but he brought us to that place where we

6 were to arrive.

7 Q. Why Macedonia? Was this your choice or did

8 you have any say in where you were taken?

9 A. No. Because the border was closed, you

10 couldn't pass, the first buses were sent back to Novi

11 Pazar. And on the way, we met these buses, as we had

12 started out in the afternoon. So we met these buses

13 somewhere -- I don't remember where -- and we were told

14 that we couldn't go to Macedonia. And then they took

15 us to Novi Pazar, and that's where we stayed.

16 Q. Were all of the people in the Partizan taken

17 on that day?

18 A. No, no, they weren't. Three girls were

19 taken -- just one moment, please. Let me look. They

20 were taken off before, because the journalist -- I

21 don't know her name -- they were taken away after the

22 statements they made when they were asked whether the

23 women were abused there and raped there, and they said

24 that they were and then they disappeared. And later

25 on, for a long time, they were not exchanged. And this

Page 2248

1 was Number 75, DB, and 87. They stayed, whereas all

2 the others went away.

3 Q. You mentioned this incident with the

4 journalist. When the journalist came to speak to these

5 girls, were you present?

6 A. The first time, I wasn't.

7 Q. Does that mean the journalist came twice or

8 even more times?

9 A. She came twice.

10 Q. And the first time, you were not present.

11 Then how do you know that these girls spoke to the

12 journalist?

13 A. Because the women told me, the women who were

14 there. I asked, because two days -- no. In the

15 evening, when I was returned from Gorazde, they told me

16 that journalists would come by from Radio Sarajevo.

17 And later on, several of them came and took these three

18 away, and they never returned to Partizan.

19 Q. You said that you spoke to the journalist on

20 another occasion. When was that?

21 A. I don't know exactly, but two or three days

22 later. That day, I went to Gorazde, when she came for

23 the first time, and then two or three days later,

24 something like that.

25 Q. Can you describe the journalist?

Page 2249

1 A. No. I can't remember her. Probably if I

2 were to see her, meet her in the street, I would

3 recognise her, but I can't remember just like that.

4 Q. And did you tell her about what was going on

5 in Partizan, especially about the rapes?

6 A. No, I didn't.

7 Q. Did you ever try to report the rapes to the

8 police?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. When did this happen and how often did you go

11 there?

12 A. Twice. I don't remember the dates, and 48

13 and 51 went with me.

14 Q. Did you speak to any policemen?

15 A. The first time, I did not. The second time,

16 number 48 did.

17 Q. Do you recall to whom she spoke?

18 A. Yes, I remember. But now, because I'm so --

19 in this situation, I can't remember the name. But just

20 a moment, please. He was the chief of police. I

21 couldn't remember his name a moment ago, the same one.

22 Q. That would then be Dragan Gagovic?

23 A. Yes, Dragan Gagovic.

24 Q. Don't you feel well, or what is it that you

25 say you feel so and you didn't continue? Is something

Page 2250

1 wrong with you?

2 A. No, it's fine. I don't want any

3 interruption.

4 Q. Did you hear what 48 said to Dragan Gagovic?

5 A. No, I didn't.

6 Q. After you went there, did the conditions at

7 Partizan improve? Especially, did the rape stop?

8 A. No, the rapes didn't stop. It was the same,

9 if not worse.

10 Q. Did you see Dragan Gagovic again after that

11 you went there?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Can you describe when you saw him and what

14 happened?

15 A. This was, I think, the next day or two days

16 later. I can't remember. I don't know how it came

17 about, but in any event he said -- whether he came or

18 whether he sent someone, I really don't know. He said

19 that I and number 48 should come out behind Partizan at

20 a certain time. What time it was, I don't remember.

21 And that's what we did. The two of us went out. He

22 came and took us to an apartment in Gornje Polje -- it

23 was a building, not a private house -- on one of the

24 floors. I can't describe that house now.

25 Q. What did he tell you why he was taking you?

Page 2251

1 A. I don't remember him saying anything.

2 Q. When you arrived at that place, what

3 happened?

4 A. He told me to sit down, and he and number 48

5 went into the room.

6 Q. How long did they stay in this room?

7 A. Some 10 or 15 minutes.

8 Q. Did they come out together?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What was 48 looking like?

11 A. She was red in the face, tears in her eyes,

12 though she didn't say anything. In any event, she

13 didn't look good.

14 Q. Do you recall what Dragan Gagovic looked

15 like? Was someone with him?

16 A. No, I really don't remember.

17 Q. Do you know what happened in the room, in the

18 other room, between 48 and Dragan Gagovic?

19 A. I assume that she was raped, judging by her

20 appearance, the look on her face.

21 Q. Did she tell you that she was raped, maybe

22 that day, maybe later on?

23 A. I don't know whether she told me that day or

24 later, but she did tell me.

25 Q. And while you were in this place, did you

Page 2252

1 hear anything coming from the room?

2 A. I don't remember.

3 Q. Did Dragan Gagovic return you to Partizan,

4 you and 48?

5 A. No, not to Partizan, but close to Partizan,

6 and he told us to go on alone and he went off. Where

7 he went, I don't know.

8 Q. You said that when the journalist came to

9 Partizan for the first time, you were in Gorazde. How

10 did that happen?

11 A. As two Serb soldiers had been captured at

12 Blagovici -- I can't remember the names. Their cousin

13 came to Partizan and said that there would be

14 negotiations, and if they were successful, we would be

15 exchanged. Number 88 went away. She didn't come

16 back. She stayed in Jabuka. And number 51 -- I don't

17 know who was in the second group. Any way, I was alone

18 going to Gorazde and they went towards Jabuka.

19 Q. What did you have to do in Gorazde? Why did

20 they send you?

21 A. They sent me to the negotiations so that the

22 two of them could be exchanged.

23 Q. Did you have a letter or something with you?

24 A. Yes. When he had driven me to the station,

25 he gave me a sealed letter.

Page 2253

1 Q. When you say "he," whom do you mean?

2 A. Bojat. I don't know how to put -- his

3 uncle's son. His cousin.

4 Q. This Bojat, is this a Serb soldier, or was

5 this a Serb soldier?

6 A. He was in uniform.

7 Q. And you said he took you to the station.

8 What kind of station do you mean? You mean the police

9 station?

10 A. The station. No. He drove me to -- by car

11 to Osanice. Not Stanica. Osanice. And in the

12 meantime he dropped by somewhere, whether it was the

13 police station or somewhere. Whether he picked up the

14 letter there, I don't know, but he drove me to Osanice

15 by car.

16 Q. Osanice, was there the front line at that

17 time between the Serbs and the Muslim army?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. When you arrived at Osanice, what happened?

20 What did you have to do?

21 A. They gave me a very small rag and a stick and

22 this letter, and they told me that I could go. But I

23 covered a very short distance, and the Serbs started

24 shooting from the sides. Then they told me to come

25 back slowly, and I did. And then they probably

Page 2254

1 reported that I was going there, and after a short time

2 they told me, "You can go now. Our people will not

3 kill you if the Muslims don't kill you."

4 Q. And when you went there the second time and

5 you started to move the second time, were you shot at

6 again?

7 A. No.

8 Q. I mean when you started -- we are talking

9 about this first occasion when you went to the Muslim

10 side. You said you returned because the Serbs fired.

11 When you started again on this first time, were you

12 shot at then by others?

13 A. Yes. Just in front of the bridge, the

14 Muslims started shooting, and they called out, "Who's

15 coming?" And I gave them my name and they asked me,

16 probably because I had waved this stick with the small

17 rag on it, so they noticed that there was something

18 there. They asked me what I had in my hand. I said,

19 "A letter." "For whom?" they said. So I don't know

20 whether I should give the name or not.

21 Q. Yes, you can give the name.

22 A. I said that the letter was for Dzemo

23 Mujezinovic, since they thought that Dzemo had a

24 position in the command. And his son Amer had been

25 captured, and he was in the KP Dom, and the letter was

Page 2255

1 addressed to him.

2 Q. And did you reach this Dzemo Mujezinovic?

3 A. Yes. That was somewhere near Gorazde, not in

4 the centre. They were accommodated in a school. But

5 Dzemo was not attached to the army. He was in his

6 home. But they had informed him that I had a message

7 about his son. And that was the first time he heard

8 that he was alive.

9 Q. What did this Dzemo tell you?

10 A. He hugged me and started crying, and he said,

11 "You're the first to tell me about my son, Amer."

12 Q. Did you get a message to bring back to the

13 Serb side?

14 A. Yes, I did.

15 Q. You mentioned earlier that the witness 88

16 stayed when she met the Muslim side. Why did you

17 return?

18 A. Because I had two small children. What would

19 have happened to them? And that moment I thought to

20 myself: If they kill them, let them kill me too. I

21 don't need to live.

22 Q. Was that the only time you went to Gorazde,

23 or did you do it another time?

24 A. Yes, I did go once again.

25 Q. How much later was it, and what happened?

Page 2256













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Page 2257

1 A. I don't know exactly when this was. Maybe

2 two or three days after this.

3 Q. Did you again have a letter and did you

4 receive a letter in return?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. When you crossed the front line, were you

7 shot at this time as well, from whatever side?

8 A. No, they didn't.

9 Q. Did this negotiation between the Serbs and

10 the Muslim army, did that lead to anything? Was there

11 an exchange?

12 A. I really don't know. But after all, I was

13 concerned about my two small children, so I wasn't

14 really interested.

15 Q. You mentioned that you were released on the

16 13th of August. When did you see your husband again?

17 How long did that take, from the last time you saw him

18 in Mjesaja to you were reunited?

19 A. Four years and four months.

20 Q. Are you in contact with any other witnesses,

21 still in contact with any other witnesses who came to

22 testify here?

23 A. No, I'm not.

24 Q. Did you see any of these proceedings related

25 to this specific trial?

Page 2258

1 A. No, I did not.

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, I have

3 finished my questioning.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Cross-examination,

5 please.

6 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

7 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning.

8 A. Good morning.

9 Q. You said today that you gave two statements

10 to the investigators of the Tribunal?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Are those the statements you have in front of

13 you? Will you look at them, please?

14 A. Just a moment, please. I assume they are.

15 Q. One statement was given on the 9th to the

16 11th of February, 1996?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And the other, 25/26 April, '98. In the

19 second statement, you confirmed that it is your

20 statement and your signature?

21 A. I have to look at the English version. Just

22 a moment. No, this is not. I looked at one only.

23 Just a moment. Yes, yes, those are my initials and my

24 signature.

25 Q. So they are your statements?

Page 2259

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did you make any other statements to anyone

3 else?

4 A. Only two journalists, because I didn't want

5 to, but not for the Tribunal. Only these two.

6 Q. You said "two journalists"?

7 A. Yes. Why not?

8 Q. When did you make those statements?

9 A. To the journalists? I don't know. I can't

10 remember.

11 Q. And do you know which newspapers they were?

12 Who were the journalists?

13 A. I was not interested at all, who they were.

14 I want the world to know what they did. Who they are,

15 what they did, which side they are from, I'm not

16 interested at all.

17 Q. Can I remind you, in relation to these two

18 statements that you made, when did you make that

19 statement to the journalists?

20 A. No, no, I don't remember at all. I don't

21 remember the dates, because people would come from all

22 over, all over the world. Because I was in a very bad

23 condition, madam, very bad, I was bleeding non-stop for

24 two months.

25 Q. I apologise, but I do have to ask you these

Page 2260

1 things.

2 A. You continue, and I will be brave.

3 Q. And how did the journalists treat you?

4 A. Because my doctor who treated me in this very

5 bad condition, he made it public. And after that, the

6 way the press are, many of them came.

7 Q. Your doctor. You mean when you reached Novi

8 Pazar?

9 A. Yes.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

11 the Defence has a statement which this witness made to

12 the press, which was recorded by a camera. It was

13 disclosed to us by the Prosecution. This statement has

14 not been redacted -- I'm sorry, it has been redacted,

15 and we have asked our learned friends from the other

16 side to receive the English version for the Defence to

17 tender it into evidence. And we have informed our

18 colleagues about this before today's hearing began.

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours --

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, the Prosecution.

21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, I was

22 given this this morning, the request, and I have tried

23 to accomplish it but I haven't yet. I couldn't do it

24 because I was in the courtroom, and I asked one of my

25 colleagues to do it, not these here, and I didn't get a

Page 2261

1 response yet. So I wasn't able to do it.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: You mean you have it translated

3 into English?

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I wasn't even able to

5 really find out what document is meant, because it's in

6 B/C/S. But I assume it's a transcript of an English

7 document we gave to the Defence, and the redactions

8 were like this: That we had blocked off the names and

9 the numbers -- and written the numbers on it. So I

10 couldn't really find the document at --

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Could we have assistance from

12 the usher, please. Can the usher get the document from

13 counsel and show it to counsel for the Prosecution so

14 that she can tell the Trial Chamber whether that is --

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I have

16 already done that, Your Honour.

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I've already seen this

18 document, but I wasn't able to find the English version

19 to this, because I was here in the courtroom and I

20 didn't have time. And my colleague -- my colleague,

21 given this task, has not responded yet.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: No. What I want to know is:

23 is that document from the Prosecution to the Defence

24 originally?

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honours.

Page 2262

1 JUDGE MUMBA: So what is your problem with

2 it?

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I, at the moment, was

4 not able to find the English version of the document.

5 The Defence, that's my understanding, wanted to have

6 the English version because they want to give it into

7 evidence.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: I see. Can we then deal with

9 it after lunch hour? Maybe you can send for the

10 English version.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. It's not actually

12 a problem to find it, but only my colleague didn't

13 respond. I don't know where she is. She was given the

14 task.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: So we'll wait for that document

16 to be sorted out during the lunch hour. Counsel, you

17 can deal with the document after lunch hour maybe for

18 cross-examination so that we verify whether the

19 Prosecution can have it in English, and I'm not sure

20 whether the Bench has it in English also. If it's your

21 intention to use it for cross-examination, we would

22 appreciate having it.

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, the

24 problem is that we just got the information that they

25 wanted to present it this morning, and we are in the

Page 2263

1 courtroom. So that's actually the problem. I think,

2 if I'm correct, this document should be in the exhibit

3 binder, but I'm not sure. I couldn't check it.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We will sort it out over

5 lunch hour.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Does it have a number?

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

8 Your Honour. There's no problem. We can continue, and

9 if we get the statement after the lunch hour, we can

10 continue. If we finish our cross-examination, my

11 colleague may refer to it.

12 But this statement is not in the binder that

13 we received from the Prosecution. I must say that.

14 But I can continue with the cross.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I was

16 just -- obviously, the document was found by my

17 colleague and was given here, but I didn't know. So

18 it's now available. I'm sorry. I was not aware.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: It's in English?

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: In both. It's in

21 English and it is in B/C/S.

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Counsel. You can proceed,

24 but the Bench would like to have copies in English so

25 that we can also follow the cross-examination.

Page 2264

1 THE INTERPRETER: May the interpreters have a

2 copy, please.

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, just for

4 the future, there wouldn't be any delays if we could

5 get this information -- what they want to present and

6 whatever English document they need, we want to have it

7 at least one day in advance. It's very hard for us to

8 get it in the morning, be here in session, and find it

9 at the same time.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Counsel, that is clear

11 now, because we've dealt with this problem before.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

13 thank you. The Defence has precisely applied to the

14 Prosecution, requesting documents that we will be using

15 in the future, so we hope we won't be having any such

16 problems in the future.

17 Since the witness has identified her second

18 statement, it is the submission of the Defence that the

19 second statement, given on the 25th and 26th of April,

20 1998, should be admitted as a Defence exhibit. And the

21 third statement we will tender into evidence when the

22 Chamber receives the translation. It will be --

23 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] D40.

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I must say

25 that we do not have a copy of this document, and this

Page 2265

1 also applies to the B/C/S booth and the French booth.

2 This is why we would like -- and they should also like

3 to have a copy, so that there should be no confusion

4 with the exhibits and evidence. Thank you.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, do you have many

6 questions for cross-examination? Maybe we can deal

7 with other questions, then break off and sort out this,

8 because even the interpreters would rather have the

9 document so that they can follow. And then you can

10 continue with the documents in cross-examination after

11 lunch.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] That was

13 precisely my suggestion.

14 Regarding the statement that the witness has

15 identified as her own, dated April 1998, I have

16 tendered that into evidence. This is a statement that

17 you have, the witness, and the Prosecution.

18 As for this statement that we have just been

19 able to distribute, we will tender that after the lunch

20 break.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Then you may

22 proceed.

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. In your statement in 1996, which you have in

25 front of you, you said that you had lived in the

Page 2266

1 village of Mjesaja?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Where did you go to school?

4 A. Secondary school, to the secondary school

5 centre in Foca.

6 Q. I see, Foca. And your husband, where did he

7 go to school?

8 A. Actually, I went for one year near

9 Medzurjecje, and it was moved later, and my husband

10 went to that school.

11 Q. So you both completed secondary education?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You said you worked at the Sipad Maglic

14 factory?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Where did your husband work?

17 A. In the same factory.

18 Q. In your statement, you said that when you

19 came to work on the 8th of April -- if you want to take

20 your statement, it will be easier for you to follow.

21 A. Just a moment. Let me find the translation.

22 Can you tell me where?

23 Q. The first page of your statement. It says:

24 "Witness Statement." You said you went to work on the

25 8th of April?

Page 2267













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14 the French and English transcripts.













Page 2268

1 A. No, the 7th of April was the last day,

2 because the shooting started in Foca on the 8th of

3 April.

4 Q. But in this statement, it says the 8th, so

5 can we establish when it was?

6 A. After all, this was fresher -- after all,

7 eight years ago, it's difficult to tell the date

8 exactly to the day.

9 Q. Do you mean to say that the information in

10 this statement was far more accurate because you were

11 fresher, so it was the 8th of April and not the 7th, as

12 you said today?

13 A. [No audible response]

14 Q. Thank you. When you came to work, you said

15 that there were only 20 workers there?

16 A. There were few. How many exactly, I don't

17 remember. But, in any event, a small proportion.

18 Q. Out of those 20 workers, what ethnicity were

19 they?

20 A. I don't even remember who actually came to

21 work, madam. Before the war or at that time, I didn't

22 care who people were. My best friend was (redacted)

23 (redacted). I never looked at or cared

24 about people's ethnicity, nor did that affect who I was

25 friends with. I think there were very few Croats in

Page 2269

1 Foca, but otherwise I didn't care who was whom. All I

2 cared about was they were good friends and that I could

3 talk to them.

4 Q. Thank you. If your memory serves you now,

5 you said that your superior was not at work, and who

6 was your superior at the time?

7 A. One of the foremen was there, but who, I

8 can't remember. But the main superior, Miletic, I

9 think he was, he wasn't there that day, or at least not

10 during the time I was there.

11 Q. As far as I understand, he was head of your

12 department.

13 A. Yes, the main head. But one of the foremen

14 was there. Which one, I don't know.

15 Q. And who was the manager of Sipad Maglic, the

16 place where you worked?

17 A. I really can't remember that.

18 Q. Never mind --

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we wait for pauses for the

20 interpreters. After you've asked a question, can the

21 witness also pause before answering.

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

23 Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Q. You just said that people didn't care who was

25 what?

Page 2270

1 A. I didn't care.

2 Q. And when did relations start to cool off

3 between Serbs and Muslims? I have to put it that way

4 now.

5 A. For me, no. Actually, even the country in

6 which I'm living now, you probably know from the

7 document. Ivana Zamjel is a Serb woman, and she's my

8 friend. She comes to visit. I don't care what

9 ethnicity people are. All I care about is they should

10 be good people.

11 Q. And can you link the cooling of those

12 relations to any events that occurred in the territory

13 of Foca municipality prior to these events?

14 A. I don't know what you mean by this.

15 Q. The cooling of relations in the territory of

16 your municipality, I asked you when it occurred. And

17 can you link that to any events that occurred prior to

18 that?

19 A. Again I don't know where you're heading.

20 Cooling of relations. You mean between the ethnic

21 groups?

22 Q. Yes. I said to you between Serbs and

23 Muslims. I have to put it that way.

24 A. Yes. I don't mind about that. I just

25 couldn't understand. Let me tell you again. I'm

Page 2271

1 working, and again my friend is a Serb, because she's

2 not from Foca. People from Gacko, from Doboj, from

3 Tuzla or wherever, from other places; even those Serbs,

4 they didn't do anything wrong to me. But those leading

5 people of Foca. Because if it hadn't been for them,

6 then the people from Serbia or elsewhere wouldn't have

7 come, so it's them I blame.

8 Q. Thank you very much. You said that you

9 stayed in the village after the 8th of April.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You said that you started to hide in tents.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. When was that in relation to the attack on

14 your village, as you put it? When did you start

15 hiding?

16 A. When did we start? Well, as soon as the

17 first shot was heard in Foca, when it was reported on

18 the news about Sarajevo, about Foca. That is when the

19 feeling of insecurity developed and people fled into

20 the woods.

21 Q. But nothing unusual was happening in your

22 village?

23 A. No, nothing.

24 Q. You said in your statement, on that first

25 page, that you saw the village of Hum burning.

Page 2272

1 A. Yes, across the Drina.

2 Q. When was that in relation to the attack on

3 your village?

4 A. No, I don't remember the exact date.

5 Q. Was it before the surrender of weapons in

6 your village or after it?

7 A. I think it was before, but I'm not quite

8 sure.

9 Q. Regarding the surrender of weapons in your

10 village, were you present when this was done?

11 A. No, I was not. I was in the village, but I

12 wasn't on the spot. Because it wasn't surrendered

13 house by house, but they said that people should gather

14 in one place and bring their weapons.

15 Q. Did your husband have a weapon?

16 A. My husband, no.

17 Q. During that time prior to the attack on your

18 village, did you hear that in June, on the road passing

19 under your village -- you said your house is 150 meters

20 from the road -- that there were several ambushes, and

21 in those ambushes Serb civilians were wounded?

22 A. I really can't remember that.

23 Q. Had you heard that a truck ran into an

24 anti-tank mine and that on that occasion eight Serbs

25 were killed and that a large number of civilians had

Page 2273

1 permanent consequences?

2 A. Let me tell you, as far as politics is

3 concerned, I was never interested. I had small

4 children. I don't know whether you have children, or

5 had children, but to have babies of 3 and 1 1/2, I

6 really didn't have time to communicate with anyone. I

7 had enough work taking care of them.

8 Q. But had you heard about any incidents of that

9 kind?

10 A. Believe me, I didn't pay any attention to

11 such things.

12 Q. You said that with your neighbours, to put it

13 that way, you hid in tents.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. How many tents were there?

16 A. Well, I don't know how many there were up

17 there at Trosanj. People who don't know the village,

18 they call the whole area Trosanj. But we were closer

19 to the road, and that place is called Mjesaja. And

20 there there was one tent, and in that tent there were

21 21 of us. Later on, two left -- to avoid any

22 misunderstanding, two left, so that 19 were left when

23 the shooting started.

24 Q. Who did you get that tent from?

25 A. I don't remember. Whether it was the men who

Page 2274

1 had land up in the mountains, I don't know. In any

2 case, it wasn't mine.

3 Q. You said that there were 19 of you hiding --

4 no, 21, and then 19, and then 16, and two went to the

5 KP Dom, and then 14 of you were transferred to Buk

6 Bijela.

7 A. Just a moment, please. There were 21

8 sleeping in the tent when the village was attacked. As

9 two of those men, who were later taken to a camp, they

10 left to make coffee, so that brings us to 19. What

11 else did you ask me?

12 Q. Fourteen of you reached Buk Bijela?

13 A. Yes, because the younger men went, left, when

14 the village was attacked. They went to one side, and

15 the women and children and these two elderly men stayed

16 behind with us.

17 Q. You said that from Buk Bijela, on the 5th,

18 you went by minibus to the secondary school centre.

19 A. I don't know whether it was a minibus or a

20 bus. I really don't remember. But in any event, it

21 was a vehicle. Whether it was a smaller one or a

22 bigger one, I really don't remember.

23 Q. On page 4 of your statement, because you said

24 that your memory was fresher then --

25 A. Let me find it, please.

Page 2275

1 Q. Third paragraph from the top. "All 14 of

2 us ..." The last line of that paragraph. The third

3 paragraph begins with the words "I do not think."

4 A. I can't find it. Did you say third or

5 fourth?

6 Q. Third.

7 A. No. You said fourth.

8 Q. No, I didn't. I said third.

9 A. I apologise.

10 Q. Never mind. So the last line. "We were all

11 14 of us ..." Last line of the third paragraph. This

12 is the B/C/S version. In the English it's page 4,

13 fourth paragraph. Will you read the whole paragraph.

14 Will you please read it.

15 A. I'm sorry.

16 Q. Fourth page, third paragraph.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, it will be much faster

18 if you did the reading yourself and then put the

19 statement to the witness. It will be much faster.

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] No problem.

21 I'll do that.

22 Q. Page 4 of the first statement, tendered into

23 evidence by the Prosecution as Exhibit 75. I'm going

24 to read. "We were all 14 of us taken there by

25 minibus."

Page 2276

1 A. Does it matter if it was a smaller bus or a

2 bus? For me, both are buses. What's the difference?

3 For me, a Mazda and a Ford are cars, so I will say a

4 car.

5 Q. Yes, but a bus can take 30 for 40 passengers,

6 and a minibus 14 or 15. I'm just checking through your

7 statement, because that is what you said.

8 A. No problem. You can check for days if you

9 like. I have come here to prove the truth.

10 Q. Did you have any conversation in the bus as

11 you went to the secondary school?

12 A. As far as I can remember, no.

13 Q. When you reached the secondary school, you

14 said that you were put up in a classroom.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Was there another classroom next to yours

17 with people inside?

18 A. No, there wasn't.

19 Q. So you claim there was only one classroom?

20 A. When we got there, there was one, but for a

21 time there were women from Srnetici who were for a

22 brief time put up in the classroom next to ours, and

23 then they would move to the same classroom.

24 Q. So you were all in one classroom. How many

25 of you were there?

Page 2277

1 A. I know a man and a woman, but in total there

2 were 72 of us in Partizan. Yes, in Partizan, 72.

3 Q. I'm talking about the high school.

4 A. But the same people who were in the high

5 school were in Partizan.

6 Q. In your statement, on page 4, you said there

7 were about 55 to 57 Muslim detainees in the classroom.

8 A. Yes. That's not -- that's a statement. How

9 many did you say?

10 Q. Fifty-five.

11 A. Fifty-five. They were the people from

12 Mjesaja, but then later the people from Srnetici were

13 brought in, and then it was 72.

14 Q. In this room that you were all put up in, how

15 many women were there of your age and how many girls?

16 A. Let me have a look for a moment, please,

17 though it is a difficult question, because they're not

18 all on this list, on the list that I have. Five girls

19 and women on this list. Five girls, yes. Four;

20 including me, five. Though there were others who are

21 not on the list.

22 Q. So five girls?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And you said five women. You're meaning on

25 this list?

Page 2278













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14 the French and English transcripts.













Page 2279

1 A. Yes, and including me.

2 Q. But how many other women were there of your

3 age there?

4 A. You mean women who were raped?

5 Q. No. I'm just asking women of your age.

6 A. Just a moment, please. I think there were

7 another three.

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

9 I'm looking at the time.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We shall adjourn for the

11 lunch break and continue with the cross-examination

12 this afternoon at 1430 hours.

13 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.













Page 2280

1 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The cross-examination is

3 continuing.

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. My last question before the break was: How

6 many other women of your age were with you at the

7 school? Could you write it down, not to mention their

8 names? May I get a piece of paper, please?

9 A. Do you want just the girls or the women as

10 well? The girls and women?

11 Q. Yes, that would do. Thank you.

12 A. [Witness complies] May I have a look at the

13 list again to see if I've written them all down?

14 Q. Well, I meant women outside this list.

15 A. Oh, you mean outside the list. Well, then I

16 apologise. I didn't realise.

17 Q. If there were any, of course.

18 A. Yes, there were. Just a moment, please. Let

19 me compare the two. There were three others, apart

20 from the ones on the list.

21 Q. If you could write their names and surnames,

22 please, if you know them.

23 A. Yes, I do know them, and I have written them

24 down.

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 2281

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the paper numbered

2 for identification, please.

3 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] It will be

4 Defence Exhibit D41, and it is also under seal.

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] The Defence

6 would like to propose that this be tendered into

7 evidence.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, I think that's already

9 been done, since it's been tendered under seal.

10 Yes, Prosecution.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Just a question. These

12 numbers 1 to 3 on it, was it written by the witness or

13 did you do it?

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Defence Counsel, will

15 you --

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.

17 I didn't hear the interpretation of that. I wasn't

18 receiving the interpretation while my learned colleague

19 was addressing me.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The numbers 1, 2 and 3

21 on this sheet of paper, did you write it or did the

22 witness write it?

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] The witness

24 confirms that she wrote it.


Page 2282

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm just

2 waiting for the number this exhibit has been given.

3 Very well, I see.

4 Q. Now, Witness, please look at the list in

5 front of you. What are the people taken out together

6 with you? I'm thinking about the secondary school at

7 the moment.

8 A. As far as the question concerning the

9 secondary school, it was very difficult to say whether

10 they were taken out with me from the secondary school

11 or from Partizan. It's difficult for me to say.

12 Number 55 wasn't with me, but all the others were.

13 Q. Thank you. Do you still maintain that

14 together with you for the first time, as you said today

15 in answer to my question from my learned colleague,

16 that 88 were taken out, DB, 90, 87, and 75? Are those

17 the ones?

18 A. Can you repeat, please? 88, DB --

19 Q. 90, 87, and 75.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. On that occasion when you were taken out,

22 were you all taken out together?

23 A. How do you mean "together"? You mean at one

24 time, all at the same time, or what? Yes, we were

25 taken all at the same time, together.

Page 2283

1 Q. So that means that there was five plus you,

2 which means six; is that correct?

3 A. Just a minute, please. Yes.

4 Q. You said that you went into a classroom?

5 A. Yes, I did.

6 Q. What time of day was it?

7 A. It was nighttime. I don't know what the time

8 was, but it was dark.

9 Q. Was there any light in the classroom?

10 A. No, there wasn't. It wasn't switched on.

11 Q. You said that there were four soldiers?

12 A. Well, I said that each of them had one

13 woman. I didn't count -- you know, I wasn't able to

14 follow this list, and I needed a lot of time, even now,

15 to go through them all.

16 Q. When you went out of the classroom after what

17 you say happened to you, which one of you went out

18 first?

19 A. I don't remember.

20 Q. Do you remember that when the names were

21 called out and when six of you were taken out, was any

22 one of you returned?

23 A. I don't remember.

24 Q. You said that you were raped by Tuta?

25 A. Yes. He was the first.

Page 2284

1 Q. Can you describe the other three soldiers who

2 were in the room?

3 A. Not three, no, I can't describe them, because

4 it was dark. That's the first thing. And also each of

5 them had a girl with him, and if there were six of them

6 on the list, then there must have been five of them and

7 Tuta was the sixth.

8 Q. Were you all together in that one room?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Were you able to see whether something was

11 happening to the other girls?

12 A. Well, how could I look? I was doing my best

13 to -- look at this here. Do you hear that clicking

14 sound? That's a consequence of it all.

15 Q. I know that it hurts, it is painful, but I

16 have to ask you these questions.

17 A. Yes. You do your job. Will you continue?

18 Q. Yes. I was just waiting for you to calm down

19 a bit. Did the soldiers talk amongst themselves?

20 A. I really don't remember.

21 Q. Did they call each other by name?

22 A. I don't remember that either.

23 Q. You said that during your stay at the

24 secondary school, you were taken out only to the

25 classroom.

Page 2285

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. How many times was that?

3 A. I don't remember.

4 Q. Do you remember who of the women with you was

5 taken out?

6 A. Well, I've already said that they were all

7 taken out, but whether this was in Partizan or not, I'm

8 not sure. But they were all taken out with me except

9 number 51. And what the time period was for this, when

10 they were taken out, I don't remember.

11 Q. Can you tell me how long you yourself stayed

12 in that particular classroom?

13 A. Ten, perhaps fifteen minutes, although for me

14 it was eternity, a whole lifetime.

15 Q. During your stay at the secondary school, in

16 that classroom, was anybody injured?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Were they given medical treatment?

19 A. Yes, they were taken for their wounds to be

20 bandaged.

21 Q. Did a Dr. Smetikic [phoen] Come to the

22 school?

23 A. I don't remember that. Well, in fact, I

24 don't know that man. Perhaps he did come, but quite

25 simply, the whole situation was so stressful that I

Page 2286

1 don't recall. But I do know that they were taken for

2 their wounds to be bandaged. They're not on this list

3 here, the ones who were injured, and amongst them was a

4 child, a 3-year-old child.

5 Q. How often were they taken away to be bandaged

6 and seen to medically?

7 A. I don't remember.

8 Q. In the first statement you gave to the

9 investigators of the Tribunal, on page 4, you state

10 that you saw Petko Cancar in the secondary school

11 centre.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Can you tell me, with respect to the time

14 that you arrived to the secondary school, when was

15 this?

16 A. Well, I don't remember the date, but it was

17 approximately ten days after I had got to the school.

18 But as I say again, I don't remember the date.

19 Q. When he came to the secondary school, who was

20 he with?

21 A. I don't know.

22 Q. Did you see him?

23 A. Yes, I did.

24 Q. Where did you see him?

25 A. In the classroom.

Page 2287

1 Q. Did he go into your classroom?

2 A. Yes, he did.

3 Q. Did he address you at all?

4 A. Well, I don't really remember.

5 Q. Did other -- were the other people in the

6 classroom with you able to see him?

7 A. Well, of course they were, yes.

8 Q. Did you see Petko Cancar before that

9 particular day, before you saw him in the school

10 building?

11 A. No, I didn't. That is to say, I don't

12 remember.

13 Q. Well, how did you know it was him?

14 A. Well, one of the staff who was there and who

15 knew him said, but I personally didn't know him. Now,

16 who said that it was that man, I really don't know. I

17 can't remember, because it was almost eight years ago.

18 Q. I'd like to ask you now to take up your

19 statement.

20 A. Which number?

21 Q. Number 74. That is your first statement.

22 A. 74?

23 Q. Yes, dated 1996. Seventy-five. I

24 apologise.

25 A. I have a statement here without -- this is in

Page 2288

1 our language. I have 76 and 77.

2 Q. On the first page of the statement you have

3 the date, 1996. The year is 1996.

4 A. I think it's this one, number 76.

5 Q. Have you got a Serbian version?

6 A. I think that's it, yes.

7 Q. Does it say 1996 on the first page, the first

8 page that you have before you?

9 A. April the 25th, 26th, and I haven't got the

10 year, though.

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to

12 ask the registrar to give us that first statement,

13 dated 1996.

14 A. Yes, I apologise.

15 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The witness

16 statement in 1996 was marked and given the Prosecution

17 Exhibit number 75.

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that's

19 it.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Make sure, Mr. Usher, that it's

21 the 1996 statement. Thank you.

22 Please proceed, Counsel.

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 Q. Please turn to page 4 of your statement.

25 A. Yes, I've got it.

Page 2289













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Page 2290

1 Q. And it is the last paragraph, and you say, "I

2 saw in the secondary school ..."

3 A. "I also saw Petko Cancar in the secondary

4 school. I know that Cancar used to be an attorney

5 before the war, but I do not know what his function was

6 during the war. I saw Cancar on my way to the

7 bathroom, which was down the stairs from the classroom

8 where we were detained. Cancar was in camouflage

9 uniform --"

10 Q. Thank you. That will do. You said today

11 that he came into the classroom.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Here you say that you met him.

14 A. Well, yes. But please, you must understand,

15 this was 1996. It is now the year 2000, so that was

16 four years ago. So he did come into the classroom.

17 Now, I don't remember. Probably I took my child off to

18 the toilet and returned in the meantime and found him

19 there. As far as this is concerned, I know that he was

20 an attorney, but I didn't know the man, as I say,

21 because I never needed any attorneys.

22 Q. Could you tell me -- you say that your memory

23 was better then.

24 A. Yes, quite naturally.

25 Q. And that that is why you made the statement

Page 2291

1 in the way that you did.

2 A. Yes, that's right.

3 Q. Now, please, at the bottom -- at the end of

4 the statement, you say that you saw Velibor Ostojic as

5 well, at the end of the page. "I also saw Velibor

6 Ostojic," you state.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. When did he come to the secondary school?

9 A. I don't remember.

10 Q. Did he come alone or was he with anybody?

11 A. I don't remember that either, I'm afraid.

12 Q. Did you see him before he came to the school?

13 A. Perhaps in the street, but I don't remember

14 his face at all well now.

15 Q. Did he speak to you?

16 A. I don't know that he did.

17 Q. When you were interviewed, were you shown his

18 photograph?

19 A. I remember that a photograph was shown to me,

20 but I can't remember now the photograph or whose

21 photograph it was. But I do remember that they asked

22 me whether I knew. On the wall next to the board,

23 there was a photograph. But who asked whether I did, I

24 don't know.

25 Q. What did you say on the occasion?

Page 2292

1 A. Well, I really didn't know whose photograph

2 it was.

3 Q. On page 5 of your statement, line number 2,

4 you say: "I sign this picture and attach it to my

5 statement."

6 A. On page 5, you said?

7 Q. Yes, the second line from the top.

8 A. In the secondary school?

9 Q. Yes. I'm -- the second line: "I am signing

10 this picture and submitting it with my statement."

11 Those were your words.

12 A. Just a moment, please. Give me a minute.

13 Well, probably at that time -- I really don't

14 remember that they brought me a picture. Perhaps they

15 brought it from the Tribunal, but I can't remember

16 because, after all, it was four years ago. And

17 probably I recognised him in the picture, but I really

18 don't remember having stated this because, as I say,

19 it's old.

20 Q. And how did you recognise him on the

21 photograph, on the picture?

22 A. Well, I don't know if I would recognise him

23 now. I don't remember that I knew the man, although I

24 see here that he was, in fact, a teacher. But I can't

25 seem to recall any of that.

Page 2293

1 Q. Let me ask you one more question related to

2 the secondary school. During your stay in the school,

3 were any of the girls harmed, injured in any way?

4 A. I don't know.

5 Q. You said that you went to Partizan after

6 that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. How long after did you go to Partizan?

9 A. Well, I don't know exactly how long.

10 Perhaps -- for me, the whole period was a very long

11 one; not only for myself but for all the people on the

12 list. It seemed an extremely long period, but perhaps

13 it was, say, 20 days, 15 to 20 days. I'm not quite

14 sure. And I don't think that any of us would remember

15 when we were transferred exactly, because we didn't

16 know -- we couldn't differentiate between day or

17 night. We didn't sleep during the day or during the

18 night.

19 Q. Before you went to Partizan, you said that

20 during your stay in the secondary school, you were

21 raped every day?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did you have any health problems?

24 A. Do you mean whether I have any health

25 problems now?

Page 2294

1 Q. No. I mean then, at that time.

2 A. I don't remember, but I do know that I have

3 them now.

4 Q. Did you have any bleeding at that time or any

5 pains of any kind?

6 A. I had bleeding one day when I came from I

7 don't know where, and when I came, I bled for -- to

8 Pazar, I bled for two months.

9 Q. And during the time you were in the secondary

10 school?

11 A. No, just once.

12 Q. When you came to Partizan, will you agree

13 with me that that was sometime in mid-July?

14 A. Well, I really can't say, and I can only

15 suppose that none of us would be able to tell you the

16 exact time we were transferred to Partizan.

17 Q. Did you notice, after you entered Partizan,

18 that somebody had been in Partizan before you?

19 A. I don't know. I don't remember that. But as

20 far as I know, it was cleaned. Now, whether there was

21 anybody before us, I really can't say.

22 Q. You stayed in Partizan until the 13th of

23 August, as you say yourself?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. During your detention in Partizan, did other

Page 2295

1 people arrive who were in the same situation as

2 yourself?

3 A. Well, a man and a woman came.

4 Q. Throughout that entire month?

5 A. Yes, and before we left, because it was on

6 the 12th and several people came who lived in the

7 vicinity and they went out with us, and I think they

8 spent one night there. I don't remember how many

9 people, but not many; perhaps five or six people. I

10 know that there was a handicapped child among those

11 people, a woman with a child. It was rather a big

12 child.

13 Q. How long did they stay there?

14 A. One or two days. I don't remember.

15 Q. So they went off. You don't know where, do

16 you?

17 A. Well, they were transferred, together with

18 us, to Pazar.

19 Q. So their arrival took place just before you

20 left, as far as I'm able to follow.

21 A. Yes, one or two days before; I'm not quite

22 sure. But they were transported to Pazar together with

23 us.

24 Q. During your stay in Partizan, were any people

25 taken off for an exchange?

Page 2296

1 A. Yes. They were taken away to Cajonica

2 [phoen], but they were not exchanged and I wasn't among

3 them.

4 Q. How many days did they stay for this exchange

5 process?

6 A. Well, I'm not quite sure whether they were

7 returned that same evening late at night or the next

8 day, but -- I can't remember exactly. Whether it was

9 late that night or early the next morning, I don't

10 remember.

11 Q. Could they have been there two days?

12 A. Yes, that is possible, because according to

13 the statements, that was fresher. But everything took

14 place so long ago.

15 Q. Was that before you went to Gorazde?

16 A. I don't remember, but I think -- I don't

17 know. I really cannot say. I can't give you an answer

18 to that question. I think it was before, I think it

19 was before, but I'm not quite sure, before my departure

20 to Gorazde.

21 Q. May I remind you and can you set the time

22 when the mosque was destroyed?

23 A. It was the 2nd of August.

24 Q. Was that before the 2nd of August, then?

25 A. Would you repeat your question, please?

Page 2297

1 Q. Were they taken away for an exchange before

2 the 2nd of August, would you say?

3 A. I think it was before, yes, but I'm not quite

4 sure. I think it might have been before, yes.

5 Q. You said that the mosque was destroyed on the

6 2nd of August?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Where were you at that time?

9 A. I don't know. I don't remember what house I

10 was in. But I was not in Partizan, that's for sure.

11 Q. Take up your statement again, please, the one

12 you had, and turn to page 7. It's the last paragraph

13 on page 7, and I'll read out the third line of that

14 last paragraph. "When they took me out from

15 Partizan" -- it's the third line. Would you read it

16 out, please?

17 A. "When they took me out from Partizan, they

18 would take me to apartments and houses and not to

19 hotels."

20 Q. Thank you. Do you still maintain what you

21 say there?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 A. And as I did not -- the city stadium in Buk

25 Bijela, that was probably later on.

Page 2298

1 Q. Yes, I know about that. I just wanted to

2 check the other point.

3 A. Well, then there's no need for me to look at

4 it anymore, madam, because I know it all, although some

5 of the details, quite naturally under stress, I don't

6 always remember them all. I don't know if you can

7 understand me, but you are on their side and I don't

8 think you can understand me fully. But carry on with

9 your questions.

10 Q. Thank you. When you came to Partizan, do you

11 remember when you were taken out for the first time?

12 A. I don't remember, but I think it was the same

13 evening.

14 Q. When you came to Partizan that night, that

15 first day, was there any light on in Partizan?

16 A. No, there was no light at all. Actually,

17 there was, but we didn't know how to switch the light

18 on. And the first night, the lights weren't on.

19 Q. In Partizan, did a woman, a Serbian woman,

20 come by?

21 A. Do you mean the journalist?

22 Q. No, no. I'm thinking of a woman who lived

23 nearby.

24 A. Yes. Her house was below that building. I

25 haven't got the picture now. Yes, she did, but I don't

Page 2299

1 remember her name.

2 Q. Let me remind you. Was she Vida, by any

3 chance?

4 A. Yes, that's right.

5 Q. Were you able to make friends with Vida?

6 A. Well, my children were too small, and they

7 would say, "Mommy, Mommy, where have you been," so that

8 I didn't contact her. But probably -- she was there,

9 yes. She did bring food, she brought something for my

10 children, but I didn't want to say this publicly, for

11 her own safety. But we didn't actually talk much

12 because, as I say, my children were the youngest

13 children there.

14 Q. You said that during your stay in Partizan

15 [no interpretation]... of Partizan with permission from

16 your school friend. Was anybody else able to go out of

17 Partizan, except for you?

18 A. Well, I just went to buy things. I was the

19 only one. And the girls went out who were taken out,

20 those who were taken out, the girls and woman.

21 Q. What was the situation like in Foca with

22 regard to supplies when you would go out?

23 A. Well, believe me when I say I don't really

24 remember. But it was very difficult for me when I went

25 out on the second or third occasion and met a

Page 2300













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Page 2301

1 girlfriend of mine, a school friend of mine, and I

2 said, "Hello, Spomenka," and she turned her head away

3 from me. That hit me very hard. I couldn't understand

4 that something like that could happen. And I had gone

5 to buy some bread, because I didn't have enough money

6 for anything else except bread.

7 Q. You said that you were taken out on the first

8 night from Partizan. Who were you taken out with?

9 A. I don't remember.

10 Q. Where were you taken?

11 A. I don't remember that either. I apologise.

12 May I say something? If you were in a small

13 town, let us take the example of Foca -- I don't know

14 where you come from and I'm not interested in where you

15 come from. But if you, in 40 days, just to quote an

16 example, not to say "rape", but in 40 days if you

17 were --

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise,

19 Your Honour, but I'm just asking the witness

20 questions.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Witness, please just

22 answer the questions. Don't ask counsel questions.

23 Yes, please proceed.

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 Q. Page 7, the one you have in front of you,

Page 2302

1 fifth paragraph. Let me remind you, as you cannot

2 remember. And I apologise to you once again, but I

3 have to ask you these things. "The rape started the

4 first night ..." And then please go on reading, if you

5 can.

6 A. "The rape started the first night. I was

7 taken out the first night, after we had been brought to

8 Partizan. I do not remember who took me out. I can't

9 remember all the details. As I said, I didn't

10 recognise many of the soldiers. The second woman to be

11 taken out with me that night was --"

12 Q. Yes, yes. That's fine. Is that correct?

13 A. I think it is, because my memory was fresher

14 then.

15 Q. So your memory was much better then?

16 A. Yes. Well, normally it was four years ago.

17 Q. Do you remember how much time you spent at

18 the house?

19 A. No, but not for long.

20 Q. You stated here that you returned about 3.00

21 or 4.00 in the morning, and you said your memory was

22 better then, and this comes in the next paragraph.

23 A. Perhaps -- no, not perhaps, but for sure my

24 memory was better then. Time takes its toll.

25 Q. So you have forgotten a number of things?

Page 2303

1 A. Yes, because I want to forget.

2 Q. Could you please describe that house that you

3 were taken to?

4 A. No, I can't.

5 Q. Let me remind you again. You said that the

6 house was in the direction of Gornje Polje.

7 A. Can I look? Was it the burnt-down house? I

8 can't remember that house. May I look?

9 Q. Of course.

10 A. Yes, this is the truth.

11 Q. So that is the truth.

12 A. Yes. Well, that is what I have already said.

13 Q. Thank you. The last page of your statement,

14 page 12. Could you read out what you said under point

15 4?

16 A. Can my name be mentioned?

17 Q. I'm so sorry. I apologise.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, I had asked you to be

19 reading.

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I do

21 apologise. I apologise once again.

22 Q. Let me read it. "Has acknowledged that the

23 facts and matters set out in her statement are true."

24 Do you still maintain that everything you have said so

25 far is true?

Page 2304

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Thank you. During your stay in Partizan,

3 were you taken to the house near the bus station? Can

4 you hear me?

5 A. I don't remember that.

6 Q. Were you taken to a house in Gornje Polje?

7 A. I don't remember that either. I don't know

8 where those houses were. I am not capable, especially

9 after my name was read out, I am not capable of

10 concentrating.

11 Q. Can I continue putting questions to you?

12 A. Yes, go ahead.

13 Q. You said that during your stay in Partizan

14 you went to Dragan Gagovic's.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Who did you go with?

17 A. Number 48.

18 Q. Was anyone else with you?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Today you said that 51 went with you as

21 well.

22 A. Do you mean to the police or do you mean to

23 the apartment that he took us to? To the police

24 station, yes, 51 went as well. But to the apartment,

25 he took me and number 48.

Page 2305

1 Q. The time you went to the police, did you find

2 Gagovic there?

3 A. No. We were not allowed access.

4 Q. The first time, you mean, which means you

5 went a second time. And the second time you went, did

6 you go again or were there more of you?

7 A. There was 51, 48, and myself. We went. And

8 person 48 spoke about what, and what they exactly said,

9 I didn't hear.

10 Q. Let me remind you of page 8 of your

11 statement. You said that you and 48 went for a talk.

12 The guard told you to wait, and Dragan Gagovic came and

13 48 spoke to him.

14 A. Yes, 48.

15 Q. But you didn't mention 41 then.

16 A. You see, because we went twice. I can't

17 remember whether 51 went with me the first time or the

18 second time. But in any event, the three of us did

19 go. I don't remember whether both times all three of

20 us went or only me and number 48.

21 Q. Are you sure that that first and second time

22 only the three of you went?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. After your visit to the police, SUP, after

25 how much time did Dragan Gagovic come to Partizan?

Page 2306

1 A. I don't know whether it was one or two days

2 later. I'm not quite sure. After that. Let me

3 finish. And I'm not sure whether he came to Partizan

4 or one of those men who were with him. Whether he said

5 that we should go out, I don't remember. I just know

6 that the two of us and he alone went to a building in

7 Gornje Polje. It was on one of the upstairs floors,

8 but I don't remember the building now.

9 Q. Let me remind you once again, on page 8 of

10 your statement. It says: "The next day Dragan Gagovic

11 came to Partizan. He entered the hall and called me

12 and 48. He was in a civilian car and he took us to a

13 nearby house." Is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Could you please tell me, was it a house or a

16 building?

17 A. As far as I can remember, it was an apartment

18 building. I'm afraid I've got it all mixed up now,

19 those buildings, the buildings I went to. But as the

20 statement was closer to the events, it is probably

21 correct.

22 Q. So after all, it was a house?

23 A. I think so.

24 Q. How much time did you spend in that house?

25 A. Not long. How long, I really can't tell, but

Page 2307

1 we didn't stay long.

2 Q. Let me remind you once again on this same

3 page, the last paragraph. "Once, I don't remember

4 exactly when, I was taken to Partizan, to a house, for

5 rape. One of the soldiers raped me, took a cigarette

6 and put it out on my hand. He did so three times."

7 A. Yes. Do you want me to show you?

8 Q. Can you tell me when this happened, after how

9 many days of your stay there?

10 A. I don't remember.

11 Q. Can you describe that soldier to us?

12 A. I cannot.

13 Q. What age was he? Was he a youngish or an

14 older man?

15 A. About 35, as far as I can remember.

16 Q. What kind of uniform was he wearing?

17 A. I don't remember.

18 Q. Do you still have scars on your hand?

19 A. I think I do. Do you want to have a look? I

20 asked you.

21 Q. We have to. We have to. No, no, that won't

22 be necessary. Just tell me how many scars are

23 visible.

24 A. Just now, only one, but because, after all,

25 eight years have gone by.

Page 2308

1 Q. Did you tell any one of your colleagues --

2 let me call them that -- that you were with in Partizan

3 about it?

4 A. Everyone saw it. I think they all saw it

5 except the persons who were taken away earlier, after

6 the journalist came, and who never came back. But the

7 others, I think they all know about it.

8 Q. I should like to ask you to go back to page 7

9 of your statement. If you can, please, take the

10 statement.

11 A. I'll do so.

12 Q. Fourth paragraph: "There was one, Dragoljub

13 Kunarac ..."

14 A. "There was one called Dragoljub Kunarac,

15 nicknamed Zaga, who used to come to Partizan. I had

16 not seen him at the secondary school. Zaga had brown

17 hair and was tall. He was thin, with long hair and a

18 beard and moustache. He had a Montenegrin accent.

19 Zaga always came with the same group of soldiers. He

20 had his own group of soldiers. The same applies to

21 Tuta and Zelja. Each one of them had their own group

22 of soldiers. Zaga did not come with Tuta or Zelja to

23 Partizan."

24 Q. Thank you. This is what you told the

25 investigators of the Tribunal?

Page 2309

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. A moment ago you read out that everything you

3 said in this statement is the truth. Is this the

4 truth?

5 A. I think it is. Just now, I can't remember

6 whether he came with a group, whether one of them

7 came. Just now, at this moment, I can't remember that,

8 but I think that this is the truth, because it was

9 fresher then.

10 Q. When did you hear about Dragoljub Kunarac for

11 the first time prior to the conflict, or before coming

12 to Partizan?

13 A. No, I didn't know him at all.

14 Q. When did you see him for the first time?

15 A. You mean the date? That's very hard to tell.

16 Q. No. In relation to your arrival in Partizan,

17 after how many days?

18 A. I can't remember. Maybe -- I don't know.

19 Maybe three or four or five days. I can't tell you the

20 exact day.

21 Q. Who was he with when he came?

22 A. I don't remember.

23 Q. Did he speak to any one of you?

24 A. I don't remember that either.

25 Q. A moment ago you said he had a Montenegrin

Page 2310

1 accent.

2 A. Yes. It seems to me that he has a

3 Montenegrin accent.

4 Q. I'm asking you again: Did you talk to him or

5 did he talk to someone else?

6 A. I beg your pardon. Could you repeat your

7 question?

8 Q. On that occasion when you saw him, did he

9 speak to you or to someone else when you claim that he

10 had a Montenegrin accent?

11 A. He did talk, but who with, I don't know. It

12 was a long time ago, so I can't tell.

13 Q. But you remember he had a Montenegrin accent?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. When did you hear his name for the first

16 time?

17 A. For the first time -- let me see. The person

18 number 90 told me, because his relative went to school

19 with her and that she had seen him with him, and she

20 told me who he was.

21 Q. So where did this relative of number 90 go to

22 school to?

23 A. To secondary school probably, because she

24 went to secondary school in Foca. What she graduated,

25 I don't know.

Page 2311













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Page 2312

1 Q. Did she tell you that they knew one another,

2 that --

3 A. Well, I don't remember that, but anyway, she

4 was the one who told me who he was.

5 Q. So you gathered that he had completed

6 secondary school in Foca?

7 A. No, no. His relative went with Number 90 to

8 school. And she would see them together, and that is

9 how she knew his name.

10 Q. Would they just see one another or did they

11 go to school together, this relative of Number 90 and

12 Kunarac?

13 A. Probably they did, or otherwise how would she

14 know his name?

15 Q. And the relative of Number 90 went to

16 secondary school in Foca?

17 A. Probably. Actually, I don't know. But

18 probably in Foca, because how would she know?

19 Q. When he came to Partizan, what time of day

20 was it?

21 A. I don't remember.

22 Q. You said he had his own group?

23 A. Yes, that's what I said in this statement,

24 but I really don't remember how many men were in the

25 group, who he came with.

Page 2313

1 Q. How, then, did you come to say that it was

2 his group?

3 A. Now I don't remember that, because

4 probably -- because he gave the orders. But I don't

5 remember that anymore.

6 Q. You said he gave orders. When?

7 A. Whether it was in the house or in Partizan, I

8 don't remember that anymore. But this statement was

9 more recent, and it is the truth.

10 Q. So what you stated then is the truth?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Then, when making this statement, nowhere in

13 this 12-page statement did you say anything more about

14 Mr. Kunarac except what is written here?

15 A. I don't know whether I did. If I did, they

16 didn't take it down. Or perhaps I should read it

17 through, and then I would be able to say whether I

18 mentioned him again.

19 Q. I did read it through, but Dragan Kunarac is

20 not mentioned anywhere else except here.

21 A. Probably they were viewing things generally

22 at the time, because then, when I made the statement in

23 '96, Kunarac had not been arrested, he hadn't

24 surrendered, because I heard that he had surrendered.

25 So they didn't question me in any great detail, which

Page 2314

1 is normal.

2 Q. Why didn't you tell them then what had

3 happened to you?

4 A. But as far as I can remember, I didn't give

5 great details right -- or rather talk in any great

6 detail about any individual person.

7 Q. But you said that Number 90 told you that he

8 was a friend of her relatives?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did she tell -- talk to you about it and you

11 learned about Kunarac from her?

12 A. If I think about it, then he must have come

13 to Partizan, and she must have seen him and recognised

14 him.

15 Q. So she told you that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. So you didn't see him?

18 A. What do you mean, I didn't see him?

19 Q. You didn't see him in Partizan, but Number 90

20 told you about it?

21 A. I don't remember that, but I'm quite sure

22 that he was there. Where she saw him, I don't remember

23 that. Whether she was taken out with me, whether he

24 came to Partizan, where I recognised him or, rather,

25 where she recognised him, I don't remember that,

Page 2315

1 because eight years is a long period of time, just

2 under eight years.

3 Q. Did you and Number 90 -- were you and Number

4 90 taken out together during your stay in Partizan?

5 A. I don't know, I really don't know. I don't

6 remember.

7 Q. Do you still maintain, as you did in your

8 statement of '96, that you always went on foot when you

9 were taken by certain soldiers to certain places? This

10 is something you confirmed today?

11 A. I think so.

12 Q. I should now like to ask you to look at the

13 second statement that you gave to the investigators of

14 the Tribunal, the statement from 1998, the 25th and

15 26th of April.

16 You have it in front of you?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. I should like to ask you a question regarding

19 this second statement. Why, in the first statement

20 that you made in 1996, and you said that your memory

21 was better then, why didn't you say that Kunarac had

22 raped you?

23 A. I beg your pardon?

24 Q. The first statement that we've read together,

25 where you described Kunarac with a beard and moustache,

Page 2316

1 why didn't you then, when your memory was better, say

2 that he had raped you?

3 A. If I mentioned his name and all the others

4 who are in these documents, I think that is implied

5 then.

6 Q. Which other persons did you mention? Except

7 for Kunarac and Tuta, you didn't mention anyone else.

8 A. I can't believe I didn't.

9 Q. You said that Tuta raped you in the secondary

10 school, and for Partizan, you couldn't remember

11 anyone. I am reminding you again that your memory was

12 much better then.

13 A. Yes, it was, but they didn't ask me for any

14 details then. But I did give them names. I think in

15 this first statement, there must be more names, the

16 names of the people that the women knew; not those I

17 knew, because I didn't really know any. I didn't know

18 them.

19 Q. When you made that first statement, did you

20 talk yourself about what had happened to you or was

21 someone asking you questions?

22 A. I was crying a lot at the time, it was very

23 hard for me to talk, and questions were put to me and I

24 answered them. And to recount everything that happened

25 in 40 days, one would need at least ten days if one

Page 2317

1 would want to give all the details. And my statement

2 lasted -- I don't remember whether it took two or three

3 days, the taking of my statement.

4 Q. Have you picked up the second statement?

5 A. Which one do you mean?

6 Q. The one from 1998; 25/26 April, 1998. It is

7 Defence Exhibit 76.

8 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] It is not a

9 Defence exhibit. It is marked 76 by the Prosecutor,

10 and it was marked, and D40 amongst the Defence

11 exhibits.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, D40.

13 Q. Page 3 of your statement. First, will you

14 tell me how this statement came about? How was it

15 taken? We won't mention where you were living. How

16 did it come about that you made this statement?

17 A. If you're interested, when we were in Novi

18 Pazar, the doctor who examined me, as I was in a very

19 bad state, he made things public, and a large number of

20 journalists came to Sandzak. But I was afraid to make

21 statements there. I made one very briefly. And then

22 they came to ask for my address where I was staying.

23 They said that I had left, it's not important where.

24 Q. So you made a statement there too?

25 A. Where?

Page 2318

1 Q. In Sandzak.

2 A. Yes, one.

3 Q. Sorry. How many did you give them, to whom?

4 A. I wasn't interested, who was what.

5 Q. Well, did they say who they were?

6 A. They did, but I don't remember. I wanted and

7 I want the world to know what they did.

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour.


10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I think there is now a

11 confusion, because the Defence Exhibit D40 is actually

12 related to an interview taken in Novi Pazar, but we're

13 also talking about the second statement the witness is

14 giving to the Prosecutor's office. Now I'm really

15 confused about what statement are you talking.

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I have asked

17 the witness to take the statement which she gave to the

18 investigators of the Tribunal on the 25th and 26th of

19 April, 1998. And according to my notes, it is Exhibit

20 76, a Prosecution exhibit. We haven't even come to

21 this third statement. It hasn't been marked yet,

22 because the Chamber didn't have copies. So the witness

23 is now telling me about a statement she made in

24 Sandzak.

25 A. That was a statement for journalists, not for

Page 2319

1 the Tribunal.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. But when was that; as soon as you arrived in

4 Sandzak?

5 A. A couple of days later.

6 Q. Was that to journalists or to an

7 organisation?

8 A. I think they were foreign journalists. I

9 don't remember what language they spoke. But I did

10 make a statement.

11 Q. Did any other person make a statement, apart

12 from you?

13 A. I don't know.

14 Q. Where did you make that statement, in what

15 facility?

16 A. Where I was staying, in a private home.

17 Q. Would you please be kind enough to look at

18 that statement of the 25th and 26th of April that you

19 gave to the investigators of the Tribunal?

20 A. Yes. I have it here.

21 Q. At the time when you gave this statement to

22 the investigators of the Tribunal in 19 -- you said you

23 had come to give additional information. Take a look

24 at the first page. It says: "Witness Statement." It

25 would be page 2 -- on page 1.

Page 2320

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. At whose invitation were you ready to give

3 additional information?

4 A. I don't know what you mean, "at whose

5 invitation".

6 Q. Who called you?

7 A. The Tribunal called me. Now, who, I don't

8 know. They came, and I talked to them.

9 Q. What did they tell you when they came? What

10 did they say to you?

11 A. Well, before they came, they asked whether

12 they could come, whether they could talk to me, whether

13 I was in a fit state to talk to them. I said, yes, I

14 was, and I would talk to them, as far as I was able to

15 recollect.

16 Q. Were you told on the occasion that anybody

17 had been arrested?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Who was arrested at that time?

20 A. The gentleman second in order from this end

21 here.

22 Q. I take it that you were invited to give

23 information, what you know about the individual who was

24 arrested. Is that right?

25 A. Well, probably they expected a lot. But as I

Page 2321

1 say, it was a stressful situation, and quite simply I

2 wished then and I wish today to think about everything

3 as little as possible, because they are not worth it,

4 they are not worth all the pain, and all the sleepless

5 nights, or anything else that I went through.

6 Q. Did you tell them on that occasion that you

7 had already given a statement?

8 A. Yes, I did.

9 Q. Did you tell them what you said in that

10 statement?

11 A. Well, they had it in front of them. They had

12 what I had stated. They didn't need repetition,

13 because they knew full well what I had told them.

14 Q. And did you know what you had put into that

15 statement?

16 A. Yes, I did. That is to say, I told the

17 truth, and I know that, although a lot of the details I

18 have forgotten now. I had even forgotten them then,

19 and I have forgotten them even more now because a lot

20 of time has passed.

21 Q. Take a look at page 3, please, of your

22 statement.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And it begins, "I remember," the paragraph

25 begins, "I remember." "I remember that Zaga, with his

Page 2322













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14 the French and English transcripts.













Page 2323

1 group of men." Yes? How did it come about that you

2 said, "I remember"? Were you asked whether you knew

3 him?

4 A. Well, I can't remember that. Whether I said

5 it that way or whether I was asked a question, I don't

6 really remember.

7 Q. You have clarified matters here, and will you

8 now please read a portion of the statement where you

9 say, "I remember that Zaga," and please continue.

10 A. "I remember that Zaga, with his group of men,

11 came to Partizan Sports Hall on several occasions. He

12 never came alone. He would always come with some

13 members of his group. I think that Zaga was the leader

14 of the group, because he would give the other soldiers

15 orders and they would be quiet and obey. I don't

16 remember any orders he gave them, just that he -- just

17 that he did do so.

18 "Usually, he would come to the Partizan

19 Sports Hall with four or five men. The purpose of

20 their visit was always to come and take women out. I

21 don't exactly remember Zaga and his men's uniforms, but

22 they were all dressed in the same uniforms. I learned

23 about Zaga's real name from an individual."

24 Q. Number 90, I think.

25 A. Yes, that's right, Number 90.

Page 2324

1 "She told me that she went to high school

2 with Zaga's cousin. Sometimes when she went out to

3 town, she would see her classmate together with Zaga.

4 I cannot any longer give you a description of Zaga,

5 however."

6 Q. That will do, thank you. That's enough for

7 the moment.

8 Here once again you say, two years later,

9 that Zaga had a group.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What is the basis for that statement of

12 yours?

13 A. Well, I don't know the basis for it, whether

14 he issued orders or not. According to this statement,

15 I said that he came with people. I no longer remember

16 whether he did, with whom, but that was fresher in my

17 mind, which means that that was how it probably was.

18 Whether he ordered in the house, issued orders in the

19 house, or on the way to the house, I don't remember.

20 Q. You said that you went to the house with

21 him. How many times did you say?

22 A. Twice. As far as I remember, twice, to the

23 tailor's house. Whether there were more times, I don't

24 remember.

25 Q. Did he take you out anywhere else except

Page 2325

1 those two times to the house?

2 A. No, I don't remember. I can't say yes or no,

3 that he did or he didn't. I don't remember -- I really

4 do apologise -- whether he took me somewhere else or

5 not. There were so many people that I can no longer

6 remember where and how and who, but I seem to remember

7 the house, that there were some materials there, and

8 that somebody said that we should take some of the

9 materials with us. Some of the women did do so, but

10 what do I need material for if I didn't know whether I

11 would live or not?

12 Q. Could you draw us a diagram of the house?

13 A. No, I can't.

14 Q. How the rooms were distributed?

15 A. No, I can't. I can't even remember my own

16 house, what the distribution was or the furniture or

17 whatever. It's very difficult for me.

18 Q. You said that you were in that house twice.

19 Do you remember the materials?

20 A. I just remember that.

21 Q. Where were these materials?

22 A. I don't remember where they were, in which

23 part of the room or house. But I do remember, because

24 one of the women -- just a minute. One of the women on

25 this list took a piece of material. Whether on the

Page 2326

1 first occasion or on the second one, I'm not quite

2 sure, but some women did take some of the materials

3 away with them, because we were told that we could.

4 Q. What, you mean the materials?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Was it some sewing material?

7 A. Yes, yes. Material to make up clothes with.

8 Q. You said that the three of you were there on

9 the first occasion. Who was there with you?

10 A. 105 and -- just a minute -- 90. I think it

11 was 90.

12 Q. When you came to that house, what time of the

13 day was it?

14 A. I don't remember.

15 Q. Was it night-time or daytime?

16 A. I don't remember anything. Because, madam, I

17 apologise once again, but I have to say that it was all

18 one to us when they would take us out, whether it was

19 in the morning or at noon or at night or 2.00 a.m.

20 They would come at all times. Now, who came when and

21 took who out, I really don't remember.

22 Q. I apologise, but do you remember that a woman

23 took off some of the material? That seems to me to be

24 not so important, but you seem to remember those

25 details, so could you tell us who took the material?

Page 2327

1 A. It was individual number 90. Yes, it was

2 her.

3 Q. When you entered the house, what was the

4 layout of the house? Where were the rooms?

5 A. I don't remember.

6 Q. Was it a ground-floor house or did it have

7 several storeys?

8 A. I can't remember that either.

9 Q. How many rooms did the house have?

10 A. I don't know. I don't remember. And the

11 house I lived in before the war, I would need a lot of

12 time to recollect what it looked like, where the rooms

13 were and so on, what its layout was, let alone somebody

14 else's house. And I had been taken to at least 50

15 houses during that time, so how should I remember what

16 that particular house looked like?

17 Q. Well, you just remembered the materials.

18 Perhaps you remembered some other details as well.

19 A. Well, I found this strange. What would she

20 want with material of any kind? And it was sort of sad

21 that she wanted this material. I don't know what she

22 wanted to do with it. She had a small child, a

23 3-year-old child, like I did. What she wanted to do

24 with the material, I really don't know.

25 Q. Well, when you say you came to the house, who

Page 2328

1 brought you there?

2 A. I don't remember.

3 Q. Was it Zaga or one of the other two soldiers?

4 A. I really don't remember at all. I don't

5 remember at all who brought us, whether he came or the

6 three of them took us. I really don't remember any of

7 that.

8 Q. How far is the house away from Partizan?

9 A. Perhaps about seven to eight hundred meters

10 away, but it's difficult to explain exactly. Not too

11 far.

12 Q. Was there a characteristic feature next to

13 the house which would jog your memory?

14 A. Yes. The Aladza mosque was nearby.

15 Q. Yes, that's what I mean. When you were in

16 the house, was the Aladza mosque standing?

17 A. The first time it was, but the second time,

18 I'm not quite sure, but I don't think it was.

19 Q. And how many days was that before the mosque

20 was destroyed?

21 A. I don't remember.

22 Q. When you entered the house, was there any

23 discussion of any kind?

24 A. I don't remember.

25 Q. Do you happen to remember the soldiers who

Page 2329

1 were in the house with Kunarac?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Can you tell us how old they were, around

4 about?

5 A. I really couldn't say.

6 Q. How were they dressed?

7 A. Well, I only know that they were all wearing

8 the military uniforms and they were all dressed the

9 same.

10 Q. What colour were the uniforms?

11 A. Well, it was the olive green sort of colour,

12 brown/green colour.

13 Q. Was anything characteristic on the uniforms?

14 A. I don't remember.

15 Q. Was any of them wearing any -- did anybody

16 have any characteristic traits, any of them?

17 A. I don't remember.

18 Q. On the occasion, did Kunarac happen to have a

19 beard and a moustache?

20 A. In the statement I say that, but when I look

21 back, yes, he did have a beard. That is to say, he

22 wasn't shaved. He had a growth. Now, whether that was

23 actually a beard and moustache, I don't know. It was a

24 long beard, but he hadn't shaved for some time.

25 Q. What was his hair like?

Page 2330

1 A. His hair was a little longer.

2 Q. Number 90 and 105, what were they doing

3 during that time?

4 A. I don't know. How should I know what was

5 going on in the other room?

6 Q. And when were they taken into these other

7 rooms?

8 A. Well, I don't know exactly whether I was

9 taken off first or whether they were taken before me.

10 I don't remember. But neither of them was in the room

11 with me.

12 Q. The room in which you were with Mr. Kunarac,

13 can you describe the room to us?

14 A. No, I can't.

15 Q. Was there any furniture in the room?

16 A. I don't remember that at all.

17 Q. Was there a bed of any kind?

18 A. Well, probably there was, but once again I

19 can't remember. I can't describe it. Because after so

20 many changes, so many houses, so many people, how

21 should I know?

22 Q. Was it night or day?

23 A. I don't remember at all.

24 Q. Was there any lighting in the room?

25 A. I don't know.

Page 2331

1 Q. What did Kunarac tell you when you went into

2 the room on that occasion?

3 A. Well, I can't remember that at the moment,

4 but I can only assume that it was like on all the other

5 days. He would say, "Get in, take your clothes off."

6 Q. I apologise. What did he say to you? I

7 didn't quite hear.

8 A. Well, I don't remember what he said to me

9 then, but I can only assume now that he said that I

10 should go into the room with him and take my clothes

11 off.

12 Q. Do you assume that or --

13 A. Well, quite simply, I don't remember what he

14 actually said to me.

15 Q. When you went into the room, what happened

16 next? Did you take your clothes off?

17 A. Well, what else could I do after Tuta's slaps

18 and all the rest? I had to take my clothes off.

19 Q. Did Kunarac abuse you physically on that

20 occasion?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Did he say anything abusive to you?

23 A. I don't remember.

24 Q. Did he take his clothes off?

25 A. Whether he took all his clothes off or just

Page 2332

1 his trousers, I don't remember.

2 Q. Did he have anything characteristic on him?

3 A. I don't remember that either.

4 Q. Did he have a sort of bandanna around his

5 head?

6 A. I don't remember.

7 Q. A scarf of any kind?

8 A. I don't remember.

9 Q. Did he have a chain of any kind around his

10 neck?

11 A. I don't know.

12 Q. Were there any insignia on his uniform?

13 A. Well, to be quite frank with you, that kind

14 of detail I really cannot remember those details,

15 because it was a stressful situation. I was in fear.

16 I did not know what they were going to do.

17 Q. Were there any threats from Kunarac and the

18 other two soldiers who were with you three in the house

19 at the time?

20 A. I don't remember.

21 Q. Did you talk at all?

22 A. I don't remember talking.

23 Q. Did they talk amongst themselves?

24 A. Well, they did say something, but what they

25 were talking about, I don't remember.

Page 2333













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14 the French and English transcripts.













Page 2334

1 Q. Did they use nicknames or names to refer to

2 each other?

3 A. I don't remember that.

4 Q. How long did you stay in the house?

5 A. I don't know exactly. I can't remember. But

6 not long.

7 Q. An hour, half an hour? Roughly how much?

8 A. Well, half an hour at the most, I think.

9 Q. And all three of you women left the house

10 together?

11 A. Yes, we all left together.

12 Q. From that house, where did you go after that?

13 A. Towards Partizan.

14 Q. Did you go yourselves or were you escorted?

15 A. No. One of them went with us, but I don't

16 remember which.

17 Q. Did the three of you talk about anything when

18 you left the house and were on your way to Partizan?

19 A. How could we talk when one of them was there

20 with us? Because, after all, we were afraid.

21 Q. Did that soldier, as number 90 had taken off

22 some material with her, did he say anything?

23 A. I don't remember.

24 Q. Did you ask her what she needed the material

25 for?

Page 2335

1 A. I don't remember whether I asked her or not.

2 Q. You said that that was on the first

3 occasion. What about the second time? When were you

4 with Kunarac on the second occasion, and where?

5 A. In that same house. I don't remember.

6 Q. Who was with you then?

7 A. I don't remember, because, madam, I do

8 apologise once again, but during those 40 days,

9 everybody was changed except for the 51. Now, who was

10 taken out with me on that occasion, I don't know, but

11 I'm certain 99 per cent that none of the women on this

12 list could tell you that either. They wouldn't be able

13 to tell you the place and when she went with which

14 one. I'm 99 per cent certain that none of them would

15 be able to tell you that.

16 Q. During your detention in Partizan, who were

17 you closest to from the people on this list?

18 A. Number 105.

19 Q. Would she confide in you at all?

20 A. Well, it is very difficult to talk about

21 things like that, although, as she had a mother-in-law,

22 an elderly woman, and she was a difficult woman, and we

23 could never actually discuss matters much.

24 Q. Did she have any children?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2336

1 Q. And who looked after your children?

2 A. When?

3 Q. When you were in Partizan, who looked after

4 your children?

5 A. Well, I would leave my children, and any of

6 the women who were there would look after them, come

7 what may. They were just there. Neither did I have

8 any courage to say, "Listen, will you look after my

9 children?" I just left my children. They just stayed

10 there. And nobody asked anything. They didn't ask me

11 whether I had anybody to look after my children.

12 Q. As you were closest with number 105, would

13 she usually go out with you? Would she be the one to

14 go out with you usually when you were taken out of

15 Partizan?

16 A. Well, probably, yes. Where, when, I don't

17 really know. I couldn't say.

18 Q. Can you count the number of times that you

19 were taken off together?

20 A. No, I can't, because, as I say, those 40 days

21 it was day and night, at noon, at 2.00 a.m. They would

22 even take out people in the early hours of the morning.

23 Q. In the course of those 40 days that you spent

24 in Foca and the 140 people that raped you, did you have

25 any medical problem?

Page 2337

1 A. Not 140. One hundred and fifty.

2 Q. Well, I do apologise. Maybe I didn't hear

3 properly. But you did you have any health problems?

4 A. Well, of course I did. Quite naturally, yes.

5 Q. Did you go to see a doctor?

6 A. Of course I did.

7 Q. During those 40 days of your stay in Foca,

8 who did you contact?

9 A. You mean in Foca did I go to anybody? No, I

10 didn't in Foca. I didn't go in Foca, but when I left I

11 did.

12 Q. Did you complain to anyone of those present

13 in the Partizan that you had physical pains, that you

14 had health problems, that you were having a difficult

15 time physically because of everything that was

16 happening to you?

17 A. Madam, after the three girls who were taken

18 away, after that journalist, who could I complain to?

19 Me and all the others, we thought that they had been

20 killed, so who could we complain to?

21 Q. You said that you had a school friend, a male

22 school friend of yours in Partizan who helped you leave

23 Partizan. He gave you some money for food.

24 A. Yes, that's true. That's very true.

25 Q. Did you tell him on any occasion? Did you

Page 2338

1 complain to him?

2 A. No, because I had this mistrust. I wasn't

3 able to trust anyone.

4 Q. After you left Partizan and came to Novi

5 Pazar -- that's what you said.

6 A. Yes, I did.

7 Q. Who was with you from the list? Who was with

8 you in the bus from the list?

9 A. 105, 90, 48, 51, and 50.

10 Q. When you came to Novi Pazar, did you

11 personally go to see a doctor?

12 A. Yes, I did.

13 Q. Did you go to see a private physician?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. What about the other people who came with

16 you? And you enumerated them for us. Do you know if

17 they went to see a doctor?

18 A. Yes. We went together. A woman from Pazar

19 took us all together to see a doctor.

20 Q. And you went to see a private physician, all

21 of you?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Any of the women who were with you, were any

24 of them pregnant?

25 A. Well, I don't know. It must have been -- the

Page 2339

1 doctor said that none of us were pregnant.

2 Q. When did you contact a doctor after you had

3 come to Novi Pazar? You came on the 13th. For

4 example, the 14th?

5 A. The 14th? Well, perhaps four or five days

6 later. I don't know exactly.

7 Q. And what did the doctor tell you?

8 A. What did he tell me? Well, he examined me

9 and he said although I was very much afraid of AIDS and

10 diseases like that, he said that everything was all

11 right, although I was in fear for a long time after

12 that. And in the country where I'm now living, I went

13 to see a doctor and had a medical examination, and I

14 think that everything is all right.

15 Q. Were you given any therapy, treatment, then?

16 A. Well, he gave me some medicaments, yes. I

17 don't remember what.

18 Q. How long were you under therapy of this

19 kind? How long did you have to take medicines?

20 A. Well, I don't know how long. But two and a

21 half months later, I went to a third country from

22 there. What he gave me, I had taken all those pills he

23 gave me. And in that country, a month later I went to

24 see a doctor again, and he gave me some sedatives,

25 Aporin [phoen] and some medicines to prevent bleeding.

Page 2340

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

2 I apologise, but our time seems to be up for today.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Anything for the

4 Prosecution?

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, before we

6 conclude, I think we should not let the witness worry

7 the entire night about her name being mentioned by

8 Defence counsel without telling her that this name was

9 not translated and it is not in the transcript, and

10 that she should not have to worry that it will be

11 public.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Witness, did you understand

14 that? You shouldn't worry that your name was

15 mentioned, because it won't be in the transcript and it

16 will not be made public.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your

18 Honour.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: We'll adjourn for today and

20 continue tomorrow morning at 0930 hours.

21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

22 4.03 p.m., to be reconvened on

23 Wednesday, the 26th day of April, 2000,

24 at 9.30 a.m.


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14 the French and English transcripts.