Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2912

1 Thursday, 4 May 2000

2 [Closed session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.

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Page 3020

1 --- Break taken at 2.42 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 2.50 p.m.

3 [Open session]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 WITNESS: WITNESS 192

6 [Witness answered through interpreter]

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Good afternoon, Witness.

8 Please make your solemn declaration.

9 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

10 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

11 truth.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Please be seated.

13 The Prosecution.

14 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour. And

15 before the usher leaves, perhaps he could assist by

16 showing the witness what I would tender as Exhibit 214,

17 which is the list with names and numbers and

18 pseudonyms.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Please can we have the

20 formal number.

21 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This document

22 will be marked P214 and it is being tendered under

23 seal.

24 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

25 Examined by Mr. Ryneveld:

Page 3021

1 Q. Now, Witness, you have been shown a document

2 that has a number of names, and behind some of those

3 names are numbers. Do you see that list that I'm

4 referring to?

5 A. I see it.

6 Q. The first name on that list, is that your

7 name and your birth date?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And is your nickname also in brackets behind

10 your name?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You, from now on, will be referred to as

13 Witness 192. Do you understand that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. The name below your name, for Witness 191, is

16 that the name of your daughter?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. We will be referring to the balance of these

19 names somewhere during the course of your testimony, so

20 just keep that handy if you would, please.

21 Now, Witness, I understand that prior to the

22 outbreak of war in 1992, you and your husband had three

23 children and you lived in Gacko. Is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Of your three children, they were aged 11,

Page 3022

1 13, and 17 years old at the time of the outbreak of the

2 war. Is that also correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And 191 was your 17-year-old daughter; is

5 that correct? She's the oldest daughter?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, when you lived in Gacko, prior to June

8 of 1992, can you tell us what the relationship was

9 between the Muslims and the Serbs in your community?

10 A. Good.

11 Q. (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 A. (redacted)

14 Q. (redacted)

15 A. (redacted)

16 Q. (redacted)

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now, prior to the outbreak of war in Gacko,

19 did you, through newspapers or television accounts,

20 realise that war had broken out in other parts of

21 Bosnia?

22 A. We watched the war in Slovenia on

23 television.

24 Q. And how about Foca? Did you know anything

25 about anything happening in Foca?

Page 3023

1 A. Foca started burning in April 1992.

2 Q. What effect did the news of war breaking out

3 in Slovenia and Foca burning have on you and your

4 family in Gacko?

5 A. Well, it did not have much of an effect on

6 us, because my husband negotiated with the Serbs, and

7 they kept saying that this would not happen in Gacko.

8 So we were not afraid.

9 Q. Were there any signs to the contrary? In

10 other words, were there soldiers from anywhere coming

11 through your town?

12 A. Soldiers from Serbia and Montenegro were

13 passing through Gacko, going to Nevesinje and Mostar.

14 Q. Did anything happen to some business

15 establishments in Gacko in April of 1992, to your

16 knowledge?

17 A. Well, not until then from the side of the

18 soldiers who were passing through Gacko. They were

19 only shooting as they were passing through Gacko.

20 Q. Could you remember an incident where cafes

21 were burnt in Gacko?

22 A. I remember that was the end of April 1992.

23 They started torching cafes, and they started to burn.

24 Q. Who is "they"?

25 A. It was a paramilitary unit. They were called

Page 3024

1 the White Eagles, Beli Orlovi. They were the first to

2 come to Gacko and to create trouble.

3 Q. Did you ever find out, at a later time, who

4 claimed responsibility for that?

5 A. This man who was in Kalinovik, the one who

6 came and who took these girls. His name was Dragoljub

7 Kunarac. His nickname was Zaga. He asked me whether I

8 remembered these details, and I said that I

9 remembered. He said that it was him, that he was in

10 that unit, and that he had torched these cafes.

11 Q. Now, I want to move to approximately the 1st

12 of June, 1992. Do you remember an incident where the

13 Muslim men were arrested? And tell us a bit about the

14 circumstances of that, if you know.

15 A. Well, in Gacko, on the 1st of June, people

16 were working at the places where they had their jobs

17 and enterprises. The Serbs started arresting them in

18 these companies, in the street, in their homes. They

19 started arresting them on the 1st, and they took them

20 to some kind of a collection centre. It was in Gacko,

21 a hotel there.

22 Q. Do you know approximately how many men were

23 arrested on the 1st of June?

24 A. About 200 men.

25 Q. And were you there to see it happen or did

Page 3025

1 you hear about it from some other source?

2 A. No, I did not hear about it. The people who

3 saw these people being arrested told others about these

4 arrests, and they were telling other people to run

5 away, those people who had not been arrested.

6 Q. All right. Was your husband arrested?

7 A. He was arrested on the 1st, but this did not

8 last for a long time. He was returned. He negotiated

9 with Serb politicians. He was returned to some

10 meeting.

11 Q. All right. Do you remember when the

12 negotiations occurred that your husband was involved

13 in, and what were the negotiations about? Did it

14 involve weapons?

15 A. Yes. The negotiations involved weapons, that

16 the Muslims should hand over their weapons, and the

17 Serbs would allegedly release those who had been

18 arrested. The Muslims did not have any weapons. They

19 just had hunting guns, some hunting guns, and they were

20 allowed to. People had permits for them.

21 Q. And what happened as a result of those

22 negotiations? Were the weapons turned over, to your

23 knowledge, or what did your husband do?

24 A. Well, some people who had been arrested sent

25 messages to their families, through the women who came

Page 3026

1 and brought them food, that they should hand over these

2 rifles that were hunting rifles actually. Some did

3 hand them over, and perhaps there were some men who

4 escaped to the woods, to the mountains, and then they

5 took these weapons with them.

6 Q. What effect, if any, did the arrest of the

7 some 200 Muslim men have on the balance of the

8 population? Did they stay or did they go somewhere?

9 A. One part escaped towards Zelengora, towards

10 Borac, another part remained behind. Women and

11 children, they were transferred to Macedonia on buses,

12 and these men remained detained.

13 Q. Did you escape?

14 A. Yes, I did. I was in Borac. The entire

15 family left because we had a house in Borac. So we

16 would go there during the summer, like to vacation.

17 Q. About how far away from Gacko is Borac?

18 A. About an hour away.

19 Q. Is that by car?

20 A. Yes, by car.

21 Q. Once you were in Borac, did you meet up with

22 other people?

23 A. Well, we did. Not everybody had houses

24 there. Not everybody had families there. We had quite

25 a few women and children there with us and also some

Page 3027

1 men. People did not have enough food, and we fed

2 them. There were other people as well.

3 Q. Was a decision finally made to attempt to go

4 somewhere?

5 A. We went up to Zelengora when the Serbs got

6 close to Borac. We had to go further towards

7 Zelengora, towards the mountain.

8 Q. Were you attempting to go somewhere where

9 Muslims were in control as opposed to Serbs?

10 A. We tried on the 1st of July. We travelled

11 four days, from the 1st until the 4th of July. Then we

12 were arrested during the night by Ulog.

13 Q. And this four-day some-odd journey, was that

14 on foot?

15 A. Yes, through the forest, and we were moving

16 during the night.

17 Q. Are you able to give the Court an estimate as

18 to how many people were in this party that was going

19 through the woods towards Ulog?

20 A. I think there were about 1.000 people,

21 because there were men, women, children there, the

22 elderly as well. And there is not a road there or a

23 path. This is a forest. So it's one person going

24 through the forest, one after the other. So there's

25 lots of people.

Page 3028

1 Q. You say that you reached Ulog; is that

2 correct? That was on what date, do you remember?

3 A. Yes. On the 4th of July.

4 Q. How were you captured?

5 A. The Serbs noticed us. They came with a few

6 people. They stopped us there, they loaded us into

7 trucks, and they took us to the school in Ulog.

8 Q. When you say "The Serbs noticed us and we

9 were taken by truck," is that the whole thousand of you

10 or were there two groups? How many were in the group

11 that was captured?

12 A. This relates to a group. When they noticed

13 us during the night, they started shooting at us, and

14 then the group parted. In this column that I was in

15 later, there was about 180 men, women, and children.

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Page 3029

1

2 Q. And it's that group of about 180 people that

3 you are referring to that were captured and taken by

4 truck somewhere?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. I understand that you were taken to a school

7 in Ulog; is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And you were kept there for two or three days

10 and then you were taken somewhere else; is that

11 correct?

12 A. Yes. They drove us to the school in

13 Kalinovik.

14 Q. Had you been in Kalinovik before being taken

15 there?

16 A. No, never.

17 Q. What happened when you arrived at the school

18 in Kalinovik?

19 A. Well, they put us all into this school into a

20 big hall. We could not all fit into this big hall. So

21 then they also assigned us to different smaller rooms

22 in the school because before us, other people had been

23 detained there.

24 Before we arrived, they were transferred to a

25 warehouse in Kalinovik. These were Muslims who had

Page 3030

1 been arrested in Kalinovik before we came.

2 Q. Were they still there or did you find out

3 that a previous group had been there from some other

4 source?

5 A. Well, there were these people. There were

6 these women who were caught, and they told us that

7 their husbands, the men, had been transferred to this

8 warehouse.

9 Q. Where were you put in the school, what room

10 or what -- how can you describe the location where you

11 were?

12 A. We were in the big hall.

13 Q. And just so that I'm clear, I may not have

14 asked you this earlier, I believe you indicated that

15 your husband fled. Did he flee with you or separately?

16 A. Well, the night they arrested us, we could

17 not go all together. He was in front of us, so he had

18 passed before I did.

19 Q. As a result, he was not in the group with you

20 who were captured; is that what you're telling us?

21 A. No, he was not.

22 Q. How about your three children?

23 A. They were with me in the school.

24 Q. I know I asked the question, but I don't know

25 if you had an opportunity to answer before I asked

Page 3031

1 another question. Where in the school were you kept?

2 I think you said the big hall, is that like a

3 gymnasium?

4 A. That was a big hall. I was there and my

5 children were there, and lots of other people were

6 there in that hall.

7 Q. Were there other people from your group who

8 were in different classrooms not in the same hall as

9 you were?

10 A. There were people in other classrooms too and

11 also in the hall that we were in.

12 Q. Are you able to tell us how many people,

13 approximately, were in this big hall with you and your

14 children?

15 A. Well, approximately there were about 10

16 people there with us in the big hall.

17 Q. Are you aware -- I'd like you to look at the

18 list beside you there. Do you see the numbers 185 and

19 186?

20 A. I do.

21 Q. Do you know those people?

22 A. I do.

23 Q. Were they in the same room as you or in a

24 different room?

25 A. They were not with me. They were in another

Page 3032

1 room.

2 Q. Very briefly, what were the conditions like

3 at the Kalinovik school? First of all, what were the

4 sanitary or toilet facilities like?

5 A. There were no facilities whatsoever. There

6 were people from Kalinovik, people from Ulog. There

7 was just one toilet. We could not take baths for two

8 months. We could not wash even. Nobody could wash.

9 All of it was dirty.

10 Q. How about sleeping arrangements?

11 A. There were these short -- how should I put

12 it -- some kind of mattresses, but we slept on the

13 floor. The wooden parquet floor. It was summer so it

14 wasn't cold.

15 Q. Was there enough food and did you -- was it

16 given to you regularly?

17 A. There was not enough food, and food was not

18 given to us regularly.

19 Q. Were you free to come and go from the school

20 or were there guards or soldiers preventing access or

21 egress, coming and going?

22 A. No, we were not free to go somewhere. We

23 were all locked in there like cattle. The guards did

24 not let us leave the school.

25 Q. What type of people were guarding you?

Page 3033

1 A. There were policemen and there were soldiers

2 too.

3 Q. How could you distinguish between them?

4 A. The police wore the same kind of clothes they

5 did before the war, they had blue shirts, while the

6 soldiers had camouflage clothes.

7 Q. Were they armed?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. How were you treated by the guards or the

10 policemen?

11 A. They were awful. They changed every day.

12 There were two policemen who were different from the

13 others. They were good.

14 Even when the soldiers would come, they would

15 tell us, "Don't give them lighters, don't give them

16 matches," whoever had them, because they asked for that

17 so they would have light to select girls and women.

18 Q. So these policemen were giving you warnings

19 and suggestion as how to, as it were, attempt to

20 protect yourselves?

21 A. Yes. These were two policemen.

22 Q. You say that the rest treated you badly. Can

23 you give any examples of things that you saw that led

24 you to conclude that you were being treated badly?

25 A. Well, they would ask us why we came, why we

Page 3034

1 were running away. That we were to be blamed for the

2 war. That it was Alija's fault that there was a war.

3 And they said, "That's Alija for you." And they cursed

4 us.

5 Q. Did they ever attempt to take statements?

6 A. They did take statements from us, the police

7 in Ulog, that is. And again, they asked us to write

8 statements when we arrived in Kalinovik.

9 Q. In particular, at Kalinovik, are you aware of

10 any instances where individuals were being beaten?

11 A. I remember that a man was taken out once and

12 beaten up. He returned. He was all black and blue.

13 This man's name was Suad Hasanbegovic. He was a

14 veterinarian.

15 A second time he was taken out, he was taken

16 upstairs. A man took him. He was a vojvoda, a duke.

17 That's what it said on his gun.

18 And we heard a gunshot, two or three gunshots

19 upstairs. And this man returned downstairs again. The

20 women who were upstairs saw that this man had returned

21 with a knife with blood on it.

22 The man did not return again. They did not

23 allow us to go out to the toilet. They wrapped him in

24 a blanket. They brought a truck in front of the school

25 and they put him into the truck, and no one's heard of

Page 3035

1 him since.

2 Q. And this man you're talking about that was

3 put in the blanket and hasn't been seen since was this

4 Mr. Hasanbegovic, the veterinarian, that's who you're

5 talking about?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you remember an incident with a little

8 girl?

9 A. Well, one evening or, actually, soldiers came

10 every evening, different soldiers. That was not

11 forbidden, they would come there day and night. The

12 children were afraid. Women were afraid. Children

13 would even pee in their pants when somebody would say,

14 "Here come the camouflage guys." And sometimes even

15 the women would pee in their pants out of fear.

16 One evening, some people came, these Serb

17 soldiers. They could not see. They saw a little

18 girl. They kicked her. She was about 10 years old.

19 She was with her grandfather. They kept kicking her

20 all the time and they were telling her, "Get up, get

21 up."

22 And the policemen stood there and they didn't

23 dare oppose them in any way. And they were kicking her

24 and she cried. We cried too, but we could not do

25 anything to help. You could not help yourself let

Page 3036

1 alone a child. We were all helpless.

2 Q. After the kicking, did you see what they did

3 with her?

4 A. Well, they did not take her away. The

5 grandfather said, "Don't take the child away. Her

6 father was in prison in Gacko and her mother was

7 expelled too to Macedonia with the women that stayed

8 back in Gacko." So the little girl was along with her

9 grandfather. She was a small child of about 10.

10 Q. I'd like you to turn your mind next, if you

11 would, please, to the 2nd of August, 1992. Does that

12 date stand out in your mind for any particular reason,

13 and if so, can you tell us what it was that happened on

14 that day?

15 A. On the 2nd of August -- on the 2nd of August,

16 there is some holiday. It's a Serb holiday and a

17 Muslim holiday. The Muslims call it Alidza and the

18 Serbs call it Ilinden. On that day, Pero Elez came.

19 He used to come there before as well. He was not on

20 his own, there were a few men with him, and he took a

21 girl away. We knew that they would probably make her

22 talk about the other girls who were there. We were

23 afraid.

24 I went to another room with my daughter,

25 where a woman was with her baby, so that she would

Page 3037

1 divert attention. If they came, they could think that

2 it was her baby. She lay next to the baby, covered

3 herself with a blanket. I sat next to her. My other

4 two children remained in the big hall. They were

5 younger, so I wasn't that afraid for them.

6 Around 7.30, it was dark. The doors opened.

7 Two men came in camouflage uniform. A policeman stood

8 at the door. One of these men walked up to my

9 daughter, kicked her, and said, "Get up. What are you

10 waiting for?" She was terrified and remained silent.

11 Again he said, "Get up." And she said, "Are you

12 talking to me?" "Yes, to you. What you are waiting

13 for? Get up."

14 I got up. I started to cry. "Don't take

15 her. She's still a child. If you have to do

16 something, I'll do it, but don't take her away. She's

17 a child." He hit me with his hand. He put his pistol

18 to my forehead, and he lifted his foot. He wanted to

19 kick me.

20 My daughter got up. She started walking

21 towards the door, and I was beside myself. I could not

22 see what was happening any more.

23 Q. Okay. You started that narrative by saying

24 that a Pero Elez came and took a girl away. Was that

25 earlier that same day, the 2nd of August, or was it at

Page 3038

1 the same time that your daughter was taken away?

2 A. He came a few days earlier, but he did not

3 take anyone away. And on that day, they took that girl

4 away an hour earlier.

5 Q. You say -- first of all, could you look at

6 the list? Do you see the name of the girl that Pero

7 Elez took away on that list?

8 A. Yes. The girl's name is there.

9 Q. And is it the last name on the list and

10 there's no number or initial beside her name?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. She was taken about an hour before your

13 daughter was taken away; is that correct?

14 A. Well, yes, an hour earlier. When they took

15 her away, we were immediately scared as to what would

16 happen to the other girls.

17 Q. You said Pero Elez. Was he alone or were

18 other people with him when the last person on

19 Exhibit 214 was taken away?

20 A. He was not alone. I think there were two or

21 three more men with him.

22 Q. When you say "men," were they soldiers or

23 could you tell?

24 A. Well, they came in camouflage, but they also

25 came in civilian clothes, dressed normally. There were

Page 3039

1 some in civilian clothes too.

2 Q. Now, after this incident, did Pero Elez and

3 his group leave with the last girl -- the name of the

4 girl who is last on Exhibit 214? Did they leave?

5 A. They left. And she did not appear after

6 that. Her sister was there at the school. Because she

7 said to us that this man's name was Pero Elez. Before

8 the war, she worked in Kalinovik, so they knew each

9 other.

10 Q. Had you seen Pero Elez at the Kalinovik

11 school prior to that occasion, and if so, how often did

12 you see him?

13 A. Well, I did see him before. He came several

14 times before that, before that evening.

15 Q. Did he come afterwards as well?

16 A. I think he did. I think he came the next day

17 once more. I saw him, I think.

18 Q. Now, you told us that after Pero Elez took

19 the girl away, you took your daughter to another room

20 in an attempt to hide her, and I understand that you

21 had her with somebody else's baby, under a blanket. Is

22 that correct?

23 A. Yes, it is, but I couldn't hide her, because

24 the man who was at the door went straight up to her and

25 got her up first.

Page 3040

1 Q. Now, you've described to us how that

2 occurred. You told us that it was around 7.30. How do

3 you know that it was around 7.30?

4 A. I had a watch, and when they came into the

5 hall, I happened to look at my watch and saw the time,

6 and I know that it was half past seven very well.

7 Q. In August, August 2nd, if that's the date, do

8 you know whether it was still light out or whether it

9 was getting dark at 7.30 at night, or are you able to

10 tell us?

11 A. Well, it had started growing dark, but you

12 could still see because it was summertime and the days

13 are longer in the summer.

14 Q. You say that this individual came in and took

15 your daughter out, and you described how that

16 happened. Was he alone at the time or were there other

17 people with him?

18 A. There was another man with him, and a

19 policeman who had probably brought him there.

20 Q. Did you get a close look at the man who took

21 your daughter away?

22 A. Yes, I did, because I looked at him. I

23 pleaded with him. I asked him to leave her alone and

24 take me instead.

25 Q. Did you see that man before he came and took

Page 3041

1 your daughter away? On a previous occasion, I mean.

2 A. That was the first time I saw him, when he

3 came and took the girls out.

4 Q. Did you see him on subsequent occasions?

5 A. Yes, I did. He came two more times, and I

6 saw him three times in all.

7 Q. During those other occasions, did you discuss

8 with him the taking of your daughter or the welfare of

9 your daughter? Don't give us the details now but just

10 indicate whether or not you did have dealings with him

11 about your daughter.

12 A. Well, yes, I did, because the man came

13 probably two or three days later. I recognised him

14 straight away, and I went up to him and asked him why

15 he had taken them off and what was going to happen to

16 them and why he hadn't brought them back, and he said

17 that they were with him.

18 Q. All right. The man who you say told your

19 daughter to get up and kicked her and took her away,

20 did you find out what his name was, and if so, how?

21 A. Well, when I came to, after he had hit me and

22 taken away my daughter -- this was a great shock to

23 me -- and later on, when I got back my presence, I went

24 out in the corridor, straight to the guard, and asked

25 him who those people were, who the people were who took

Page 3042

1 the girls out and what was going to happen to the

2 girls. He told me that that man's name was -- that

3 that man's name was Dragoljub Kunarac. But he didn't

4 know his real name at the time. He just told me that

5 his name was Zaga, and the man with him, his name was

6 Gaga. And I asked who they were, and he said they were

7 dangerous, that they had their unit whose name was the

8 White Eagles, and that they were from Foca, and that is

9 how I learnt of his name.

10 Q. Could you describe the individual who took

11 your daughter away?

12 A. Well, yes, I can. He was wearing a

13 camouflage uniform. He was armed. He had a band

14 around his forehead, and he had some bands on his

15 shoulders. He was tall. He had eyes, enormous eyes,

16 big eyes like this, big ones. He had a thin face. He

17 had a sort of naturally wavy hair.

18 Q. Would you recognise this man if you were to

19 see him again?

20 A. I probably would, yes.

21 Q. I'd invite you now to look around the

22 courtroom and tell us whether the individual who took

23 your daughter away is in this courtroom, and if so,

24 where he is.

25 A. It's that first man there.

Page 3043

1 Q. You're pointing in the direction of the rear

2 wall facing you. There are a number of individuals in

3 that row. Counting from left to right, what position

4 is the person occupying that you're pointing out?

5 A. The first man is a policeman wearing a blue

6 shirt, and that man, the one next to him, that first

7 man next to him.

8 Q. Is that the person you refer to as the one

9 who took your daughter away?

10 A. Yes, that's the one. That's him.

11 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honours, may the record

12 show that the witness has identified the accused

13 Dragoljub Kunarac.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

15 MR. RYNEVELD:

16 Q. Can you describe the man who was with him,

17 the man that you say the guard told you was Gaga?

18 A. Well, the man with him was the same age.

19 Q. Do you know whether he was taller or shorter

20 or any other distinguishing features about that

21 individual?

22 A. Well, he wasn't taller. His hair was cut

23 short. He had brown hair. Perhaps he was a little

24 shorter.

25 Q. Now, you said that when you regained

Page 3044

1 consciousness or perhaps words to that effect -- you

2 left me with the impression that as a result of being

3 struck, you were dazed for a while. Is that correct?

4 A. Yes, that's right.

5 Q. Did you find out how your daughter was taken

6 away from the Kalinovik school?

7 A. Afterwards, I asked the women -- the women

8 were crying because that night, seven or eight girls

9 were taken away, and the mothers cried. The women were

10 screaming. And I asked. I didn't know how many had

11 been taken away straight away, and then they told me

12 that that particular evening, that man had taken away

13 seven girls, and that they were all piled into a car

14 and taken off.

15 Q. Would you please, again, look at Exhibit 214,

16 which is that sheet of paper with the list of names and

17 numbers, and can you tell us whether any of the other

18 girls who were taken a way that night apart from your

19 daughter, Number 191, are on that list?

20 A. 190 is the number, and then there was number

21 186, and here there's -- there are others who were

22 taken away but whose number I can't see here.

23 Q. There is an individual whose initials on this

24 list are JG, do you know whether or not she was at the

25 school and if she was taken away or not?

Page 3045

1 A. Yes. She was at the school. She was in the

2 hall together with me, and that girl was 13 years old.

3 She went to school with my younger daughter and they

4 went to the -- they attended the seventh form, and she

5 was taken out that evening.

6 Q. Did you know the names of the other girls

7 that were taken away or were they not from Gacko?

8 A. Well, I knew about these five from Gacko, but

9 there were three others from Kalinovik. I didn't know

10 their names.

11 Q. You told us, when I asked you whether you had

12 seen this individual who took your daughter away, that

13 you saw him again three or four days later. Is that

14 the same person that you identified as Zaga in this

15 courtroom?

16 A. Yes, it is.

17 Q. Was he alone at the time?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Who was with him?

20 A. The first time he was with -- I can't

21 remember the name of the person, Gojko Jankovic, and

22 there were some other soldiers as well.

23 Q. Did you have any dealings with him at that

24 time?

25 A. Well, yes, I did. I asked him straight away

Page 3046

1 about my daughter and the other girls, and he said that

2 they were with him.

3 Q. Was there any further exchange? Were you

4 talking any more or was that it?

5 A. Well, he came again on another occasion.

6 Q. And what happened then?

7 A. The second time he came, Gaga was with him.

8 Another time, there was a woman with him. She was

9 short and blonde and she was armed. And she provoked

10 us a lot. She provoked me too when I asked about my

11 daughter. She provoked me a great deal.

12 And there were some soldiers as well. And

13 when he came, that man, and I recognised him, I asked

14 him about the children, when he would return them. He

15 said that they were at his place and that he wouldn't

16 bring them back.

17 Q. Do you remember an incident where a policeman

18 came to the gym and asked for a person by your

19 nickname?

20 A. Yes, I remember.

21 Q. Can you tell us about that incident, please?

22 A. Well, about ten of them came into the hall

23 and they -- that is to say I had my real name, but I

24 also had a nickname. And they asked for me using my

25 nickname. And the women were silent. We were all

Page 3047

1 silent. But he shouted and said if that person doesn't

2 come forward, he would kill us all.

3 And then I got up and said "I am that person,

4 but that is not my real name. I have another name, a

5 real name." And then they took me out into another

6 room. It was a gym hall, a changing room, in fact, and

7 they questioned me there.

8 And Gojko Jankovic was there too, and so was

9 this man Zaga. And Gojko asked me whether I would be

10 able to recognise my daughter's handwriting and I said

11 that I would.

12 So then he took out a letter and when I saw

13 that letter, I recognised her handwriting, but I

14 couldn't read it because I was shaking all over.

15 He read the letter out to me and kept the

16 letter. And the letter said, "Mommy, I'm well. I'm

17 together with the other girls. We're all together.

18 Please send me some clothes."

19 And I sent some clothes and some underwear

20 and I had some money on me, and I wanted to send her

21 some money. But Zaga said there was no need and Gojko

22 said that too, that she didn't need any money.

23 But nonetheless they took the money. They

24 never gave her that money. But they did give her the

25 clothes.

Page 3048

1 Q. To whom did you give the clothes and the

2 money to give to your daughter?

3 A. I gave the clothes and the money to Zaga. I

4 gave it to Zaga because he said that my daughter was

5 with him.

6 Q. Were you aware who the other girls were who

7 were with your daughter?

8 A. There was a girl and her number was 186. She

9 is number 186. And there was this little girl, the

10 13-year-old little girl. And later on they separated

11 the little girl from them.

12 She was told that she would be taken back to

13 Kalinovik to her mother, but they didn't take her back

14 to her mother. They took to her Miljevina, because

15 that's where they had a brothel, and there were a lot

16 of girls shut up there in a house.

17 I think that house was known as Karaman's

18 House, and that's where the little girl was until March

19 1993 at Miljevina.

20 Q. By little girl, you're referring to the

21 person on Exhibit 214 with the initials JG?

22 A. Yes, that's right.

23 Q. You were aware that 186 was with your

24 daughter; is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3049

1 Q. Did you know where 186's mother was?

2 A. Her mother was in Kalinovik, but she wasn't

3 with me in the same hall. She was in another hall.

4 Q. And is her mother 185?

5 A. Yes, she is.

6 Q. As a result of knowing that 185 was somewhere

7 else in the hall, when Zaga and Jankovic came with this

8 letter, did you take them to go see number 185?

9 A. Gojko asked me where the mother was, the

10 mother of this person, this girl, 186, and he told me

11 to take him to the mother. And I took him. And I

12 said, "That's the mother." And he said that she

13 shouldn't worry, that she was with him.

14 Q. And by "she", he was referring to 186?

15 A. Yes, that's the girl. The mother's daughter,

16 yes. The girl is under number 186. The girl is 186

17 and the mother's number is 185.

18 Q. So you were present when Mr. Jankovic told

19 185 that her daughter, 186, was with him. Is that

20 correct? You heard that?

21 A. Yes, that's right.

22 Q. Did 185 give any clothing to be taken to her

23 daughter as well, do you know, or are you aware of

24 that?

25 A. I remember that she told him, that is to say,

Page 3050

1 she asked him whether he would take her any clothes.

2 And I went back to the hall, so I don't know what

3 happened later on, whether she actually got the clothes

4 together and whether the man took the clothes.

5 Q. You gave some money to Zaga to give to your

6 daughter. Did something happen later that evening with

7 respect to whatever money you had?

8 A. Well, before nightfall, a group arrived and

9 when they came to the door, they told us to take out of

10 our pockets everything we had; money, jewellery and

11 anything else.

12 We had some jewellery and we had some money.

13 The women had this -- some of them had stitched it into

14 their clothing. And I remember that my daughter had

15 stitched in some money and jewellery into a bow, into a

16 ribbon she had around her hair.

17 So before they came to me, before it was my

18 turn, I had to cut this with my teeth and take it out,

19 and so I handed over all my money and all my

20 jewellery. And everything -- everybody else did the

21 same.

22 I had a little left in a pocket of mine that

23 was separate from the rest. And what remained, I

24 wanted to give to my daughter but she never got it.

25 Q. Were you told what would happen to you if you

Page 3051

1 didn't turn over your valuables?

2 A. Well, they told us that if we didn't hand

3 them over, they would come back and then would -- they

4 would search us, search all our clothing and our

5 rucksacks and if they found anything, then they would

6 kill that person.

7 So the women were terrified and all of us

8 gave what we had.

9 Q. You told us that you saw Zaga on a number of

10 occasions. Were there occasions when men belonging to

11 Zaga's unit came to the Kalinovik school and, if so,

12 how do you know that they were his men?

13 A. I knew they were his men because they came

14 with him. And he came three times. The first time on

15 the 2nd of August when he took the girls away, and then

16 he came two more times, but I didn't see him anymore.

17 Q. Did his men continue to come without him?

18 A. No, they didn't come again.

19 Q. Do you remember an incident when Zaga came

20 with a female soldier?

21 A. Well, that was the one. I heard from Zaga

22 that he referred to her as Jasna or Jaco and this

23 woman's name was Jadranka. I think her surname was

24 Zdralo.

25 Q. And was that the occasion that you have told

Page 3052

1 us about where you asked the whereabouts of the

2 children that were taken away?

3 A. Yes, yes. I asked them then where the

4 children were. They were in the hall. And as they

5 were going out, I went out after them to ask them where

6 the children were and when they would be returned. He

7 said no, they were with him and they wouldn't be coming

8 back.

9 And then I said what was going to happen to

10 us? And he said quite simply, "Well, we'll just kill

11 you." He said, "I killed 20 people last night in the

12 gunpowder storehouse." That's what he said to me and I

13 had nothing else to say to him.

14 Jadranka provoked me she had a knife and she

15 would pass the knife over her lips, over her mouth, and

16 she would say to me in the hallway that she had been

17 all over Croatia to the front there, and that all her

18 people would be killed and she would take her revenge,

19 and she was terrible as a woman.

20 Q. Later that same day, did you receive a second

21 letter, and if so, from whom?

22 A. I received a letter from my daughter. Zaga

23 brought the letter. But there was nothing much in the

24 letter. All my daughter had written was, "Mommy, I'm

25 well. I am together with the other girls. Please look

Page 3053

1 after my brother and sister. Lots of love, from your

2 daughter."

3 Q. Were you allowed to keep that letter, unlike

4 the first letter?

5 A. I was allowed to. The letter stayed with me,

6 but I've lost the letter since.

7 Q. When Zaga came with soldiers, could you tell

8 who was in charge?

9 A. Well, the one in charge was Zaga, because

10 they came with him and they obeyed him. And that day

11 in the corridor, when I was asking about my daughter,

12 he was indicating houses through the window, and

13 garages, and he was indicating this to the soldiers.

14 There were five or six soldiers and he was busy showing

15 them something. He was telling them to loot the

16 garages, in fact, and to take the cars in them. They

17 left, and he stayed on with Jadranka and Gaga.

18 Q. Did you complain to Zaga about having been

19 robbed and, if so, did he give a response?

20 A. Yes, I did tell him. I told him we had been

21 robbed and that our gold and jewellery had been taken

22 and our money, and he said that these weren't his men

23 but that these were men -- I can't remember. I know

24 their name, but I can't seem to remember.

25 Q. Was that the last time you saw Zaga in

Page 3054

1 Kalinovik?

2 A. Yes, it is.

3 Q. Do you know approximately over what period of

4 time, from the 2nd of August to the last time you saw

5 Zaga, how long a period of time that you saw him those

6 three or four occasions?

7 A. Well, it was all in the space of a week. I

8 just remembered -- that is to say, I remembered when he

9 said that they weren't his people, his men, but Cosa's

10 men, the people who had looted us, Cosa's men.

11 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honours, I note the

12 time. I will have probably another 15 to 20 minutes

13 with this witness. I realise that we're here for a

14 break, but I do understand that the witness is planning

15 on staying for a period of time. I'm in the Court's

16 hands. There is, of course, still cross-examination

17 even when I'm done.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. So we will have to break

19 off now. Our next proceedings are which date, if you

20 can remember?

21 MR. RYNEVELD: My understanding is it is the

22 15th of this month.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: The 15th of June, yes.

24 MR. RYNEVELD: May. May, yes.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: I'm running fast. Okay. We

Page 3055

1 are adjourned now. Our next sitting will be on the

2 15th of May at 09.30 hours.

3 Witness, you have to come back then.

4 MR. RYNEVELD: If I may just indicate that in

5 preparation for the following week's proceedings, we do

6 have a list of witnesses here that we can distribute at

7 this time so that both my learned friends and the Court

8 is aware of the line-up that we anticipate for the next

9 week of sitting.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. In the meantime, the

11 Court will rise.

12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

13 at 4.00 p.m., to be reconvened on

14 Monday, the 15th day of May, 2000

15 at 9.30 a.m.

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