1 Thursday, 4 May 2000
2 [Closed session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.
13 pages 2912-3020 redacted – closed session
1 --- Break taken at 2.42 p.m.
2 --- On resuming at 2.50 p.m.
3 [Open session]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 WITNESS: WITNESS 192
6 [Witness answered through interpreter]
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Good afternoon, Witness.
8 Please make your solemn declaration.
9 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
10 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Please be seated.
13 The Prosecution.
14 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour. And
15 before the usher leaves, perhaps he could assist by
16 showing the witness what I would tender as Exhibit 214,
17 which is the list with names and numbers and
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Please can we have the
20 formal number.
21 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This document
22 will be marked P214 and it is being tendered under
24 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.
25 Examined by Mr. Ryneveld:
1 Q. Now, Witness, you have been shown a document
2 that has a number of names, and behind some of those
3 names are numbers. Do you see that list that I'm
4 referring to?
5 A. I see it.
6 Q. The first name on that list, is that your
7 name and your birth date?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And is your nickname also in brackets behind
10 your name?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You, from now on, will be referred to as
13 Witness 192. Do you understand that?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. The name below your name, for Witness 191, is
16 that the name of your daughter?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. We will be referring to the balance of these
19 names somewhere during the course of your testimony, so
20 just keep that handy if you would, please.
21 Now, Witness, I understand that prior to the
22 outbreak of war in 1992, you and your husband had three
23 children and you lived in Gacko. Is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Of your three children, they were aged 11,
1 13, and 17 years old at the time of the outbreak of the
2 war. Is that also correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And 191 was your 17-year-old daughter; is
5 that correct? She's the oldest daughter?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now, when you lived in Gacko, prior to June
8 of 1992, can you tell us what the relationship was
9 between the Muslims and the Serbs in your community?
10 A. Good.
11 Q. (redacted)
13 A. (redacted)
14 Q. (redacted)
15 A. (redacted)
16 Q. (redacted)
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, prior to the outbreak of war in Gacko,
19 did you, through newspapers or television accounts,
20 realise that war had broken out in other parts of
22 A. We watched the war in Slovenia on
24 Q. And how about Foca? Did you know anything
25 about anything happening in Foca?
1 A. Foca started burning in April 1992.
2 Q. What effect did the news of war breaking out
3 in Slovenia and Foca burning have on you and your
4 family in Gacko?
5 A. Well, it did not have much of an effect on
6 us, because my husband negotiated with the Serbs, and
7 they kept saying that this would not happen in Gacko.
8 So we were not afraid.
9 Q. Were there any signs to the contrary? In
10 other words, were there soldiers from anywhere coming
11 through your town?
12 A. Soldiers from Serbia and Montenegro were
13 passing through Gacko, going to Nevesinje and Mostar.
14 Q. Did anything happen to some business
15 establishments in Gacko in April of 1992, to your
17 A. Well, not until then from the side of the
18 soldiers who were passing through Gacko. They were
19 only shooting as they were passing through Gacko.
20 Q. Could you remember an incident where cafes
21 were burnt in Gacko?
22 A. I remember that was the end of April 1992.
23 They started torching cafes, and they started to burn.
24 Q. Who is "they"?
25 A. It was a paramilitary unit. They were called
1 the White Eagles, Beli Orlovi. They were the first to
2 come to Gacko and to create trouble.
3 Q. Did you ever find out, at a later time, who
4 claimed responsibility for that?
5 A. This man who was in Kalinovik, the one who
6 came and who took these girls. His name was Dragoljub
7 Kunarac. His nickname was Zaga. He asked me whether I
8 remembered these details, and I said that I
9 remembered. He said that it was him, that he was in
10 that unit, and that he had torched these cafes.
11 Q. Now, I want to move to approximately the 1st
12 of June, 1992. Do you remember an incident where the
13 Muslim men were arrested? And tell us a bit about the
14 circumstances of that, if you know.
15 A. Well, in Gacko, on the 1st of June, people
16 were working at the places where they had their jobs
17 and enterprises. The Serbs started arresting them in
18 these companies, in the street, in their homes. They
19 started arresting them on the 1st, and they took them
20 to some kind of a collection centre. It was in Gacko,
21 a hotel there.
22 Q. Do you know approximately how many men were
23 arrested on the 1st of June?
24 A. About 200 men.
25 Q. And were you there to see it happen or did
1 you hear about it from some other source?
2 A. No, I did not hear about it. The people who
3 saw these people being arrested told others about these
4 arrests, and they were telling other people to run
5 away, those people who had not been arrested.
6 Q. All right. Was your husband arrested?
7 A. He was arrested on the 1st, but this did not
8 last for a long time. He was returned. He negotiated
9 with Serb politicians. He was returned to some
11 Q. All right. Do you remember when the
12 negotiations occurred that your husband was involved
13 in, and what were the negotiations about? Did it
14 involve weapons?
15 A. Yes. The negotiations involved weapons, that
16 the Muslims should hand over their weapons, and the
17 Serbs would allegedly release those who had been
18 arrested. The Muslims did not have any weapons. They
19 just had hunting guns, some hunting guns, and they were
20 allowed to. People had permits for them.
21 Q. And what happened as a result of those
22 negotiations? Were the weapons turned over, to your
23 knowledge, or what did your husband do?
24 A. Well, some people who had been arrested sent
25 messages to their families, through the women who came
1 and brought them food, that they should hand over these
2 rifles that were hunting rifles actually. Some did
3 hand them over, and perhaps there were some men who
4 escaped to the woods, to the mountains, and then they
5 took these weapons with them.
6 Q. What effect, if any, did the arrest of the
7 some 200 Muslim men have on the balance of the
8 population? Did they stay or did they go somewhere?
9 A. One part escaped towards Zelengora, towards
10 Borac, another part remained behind. Women and
11 children, they were transferred to Macedonia on buses,
12 and these men remained detained.
13 Q. Did you escape?
14 A. Yes, I did. I was in Borac. The entire
15 family left because we had a house in Borac. So we
16 would go there during the summer, like to vacation.
17 Q. About how far away from Gacko is Borac?
18 A. About an hour away.
19 Q. Is that by car?
20 A. Yes, by car.
21 Q. Once you were in Borac, did you meet up with
22 other people?
23 A. Well, we did. Not everybody had houses
24 there. Not everybody had families there. We had quite
25 a few women and children there with us and also some
1 men. People did not have enough food, and we fed
2 them. There were other people as well.
3 Q. Was a decision finally made to attempt to go
5 A. We went up to Zelengora when the Serbs got
6 close to Borac. We had to go further towards
7 Zelengora, towards the mountain.
8 Q. Were you attempting to go somewhere where
9 Muslims were in control as opposed to Serbs?
10 A. We tried on the 1st of July. We travelled
11 four days, from the 1st until the 4th of July. Then we
12 were arrested during the night by Ulog.
13 Q. And this four-day some-odd journey, was that
14 on foot?
15 A. Yes, through the forest, and we were moving
16 during the night.
17 Q. Are you able to give the Court an estimate as
18 to how many people were in this party that was going
19 through the woods towards Ulog?
20 A. I think there were about 1.000 people,
21 because there were men, women, children there, the
22 elderly as well. And there is not a road there or a
23 path. This is a forest. So it's one person going
24 through the forest, one after the other. So there's
25 lots of people.
1 Q. You say that you reached Ulog; is that
2 correct? That was on what date, do you remember?
3 A. Yes. On the 4th of July.
4 Q. How were you captured?
5 A. The Serbs noticed us. They came with a few
6 people. They stopped us there, they loaded us into
7 trucks, and they took us to the school in Ulog.
8 Q. When you say "The Serbs noticed us and we
9 were taken by truck," is that the whole thousand of you
10 or were there two groups? How many were in the group
11 that was captured?
12 A. This relates to a group. When they noticed
13 us during the night, they started shooting at us, and
14 then the group parted. In this column that I was in
15 later, there was about 180 men, women, and children.
2 Q. And it's that group of about 180 people that
3 you are referring to that were captured and taken by
4 truck somewhere?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. I understand that you were taken to a school
7 in Ulog; is that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And you were kept there for two or three days
10 and then you were taken somewhere else; is that
12 A. Yes. They drove us to the school in
14 Q. Had you been in Kalinovik before being taken
16 A. No, never.
17 Q. What happened when you arrived at the school
18 in Kalinovik?
19 A. Well, they put us all into this school into a
20 big hall. We could not all fit into this big hall. So
21 then they also assigned us to different smaller rooms
22 in the school because before us, other people had been
23 detained there.
24 Before we arrived, they were transferred to a
25 warehouse in Kalinovik. These were Muslims who had
1 been arrested in Kalinovik before we came.
2 Q. Were they still there or did you find out
3 that a previous group had been there from some other
5 A. Well, there were these people. There were
6 these women who were caught, and they told us that
7 their husbands, the men, had been transferred to this
9 Q. Where were you put in the school, what room
10 or what -- how can you describe the location where you
12 A. We were in the big hall.
13 Q. And just so that I'm clear, I may not have
14 asked you this earlier, I believe you indicated that
15 your husband fled. Did he flee with you or separately?
16 A. Well, the night they arrested us, we could
17 not go all together. He was in front of us, so he had
18 passed before I did.
19 Q. As a result, he was not in the group with you
20 who were captured; is that what you're telling us?
21 A. No, he was not.
22 Q. How about your three children?
23 A. They were with me in the school.
24 Q. I know I asked the question, but I don't know
25 if you had an opportunity to answer before I asked
1 another question. Where in the school were you kept?
2 I think you said the big hall, is that like a
4 A. That was a big hall. I was there and my
5 children were there, and lots of other people were
6 there in that hall.
7 Q. Were there other people from your group who
8 were in different classrooms not in the same hall as
9 you were?
10 A. There were people in other classrooms too and
11 also in the hall that we were in.
12 Q. Are you able to tell us how many people,
13 approximately, were in this big hall with you and your
15 A. Well, approximately there were about 10
16 people there with us in the big hall.
17 Q. Are you aware -- I'd like you to look at the
18 list beside you there. Do you see the numbers 185 and
20 A. I do.
21 Q. Do you know those people?
22 A. I do.
23 Q. Were they in the same room as you or in a
24 different room?
25 A. They were not with me. They were in another
2 Q. Very briefly, what were the conditions like
3 at the Kalinovik school? First of all, what were the
4 sanitary or toilet facilities like?
5 A. There were no facilities whatsoever. There
6 were people from Kalinovik, people from Ulog. There
7 was just one toilet. We could not take baths for two
8 months. We could not wash even. Nobody could wash.
9 All of it was dirty.
10 Q. How about sleeping arrangements?
11 A. There were these short -- how should I put
12 it -- some kind of mattresses, but we slept on the
13 floor. The wooden parquet floor. It was summer so it
14 wasn't cold.
15 Q. Was there enough food and did you -- was it
16 given to you regularly?
17 A. There was not enough food, and food was not
18 given to us regularly.
19 Q. Were you free to come and go from the school
20 or were there guards or soldiers preventing access or
21 egress, coming and going?
22 A. No, we were not free to go somewhere. We
23 were all locked in there like cattle. The guards did
24 not let us leave the school.
25 Q. What type of people were guarding you?
1 A. There were policemen and there were soldiers
3 Q. How could you distinguish between them?
4 A. The police wore the same kind of clothes they
5 did before the war, they had blue shirts, while the
6 soldiers had camouflage clothes.
7 Q. Were they armed?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. How were you treated by the guards or the
11 A. They were awful. They changed every day.
12 There were two policemen who were different from the
13 others. They were good.
14 Even when the soldiers would come, they would
15 tell us, "Don't give them lighters, don't give them
16 matches," whoever had them, because they asked for that
17 so they would have light to select girls and women.
18 Q. So these policemen were giving you warnings
19 and suggestion as how to, as it were, attempt to
20 protect yourselves?
21 A. Yes. These were two policemen.
22 Q. You say that the rest treated you badly. Can
23 you give any examples of things that you saw that led
24 you to conclude that you were being treated badly?
25 A. Well, they would ask us why we came, why we
1 were running away. That we were to be blamed for the
2 war. That it was Alija's fault that there was a war.
3 And they said, "That's Alija for you." And they cursed
5 Q. Did they ever attempt to take statements?
6 A. They did take statements from us, the police
7 in Ulog, that is. And again, they asked us to write
8 statements when we arrived in Kalinovik.
9 Q. In particular, at Kalinovik, are you aware of
10 any instances where individuals were being beaten?
11 A. I remember that a man was taken out once and
12 beaten up. He returned. He was all black and blue.
13 This man's name was Suad Hasanbegovic. He was a
15 A second time he was taken out, he was taken
16 upstairs. A man took him. He was a vojvoda, a duke.
17 That's what it said on his gun.
18 And we heard a gunshot, two or three gunshots
19 upstairs. And this man returned downstairs again. The
20 women who were upstairs saw that this man had returned
21 with a knife with blood on it.
22 The man did not return again. They did not
23 allow us to go out to the toilet. They wrapped him in
24 a blanket. They brought a truck in front of the school
25 and they put him into the truck, and no one's heard of
1 him since.
2 Q. And this man you're talking about that was
3 put in the blanket and hasn't been seen since was this
4 Mr. Hasanbegovic, the veterinarian, that's who you're
5 talking about?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you remember an incident with a little
9 A. Well, one evening or, actually, soldiers came
10 every evening, different soldiers. That was not
11 forbidden, they would come there day and night. The
12 children were afraid. Women were afraid. Children
13 would even pee in their pants when somebody would say,
14 "Here come the camouflage guys." And sometimes even
15 the women would pee in their pants out of fear.
16 One evening, some people came, these Serb
17 soldiers. They could not see. They saw a little
18 girl. They kicked her. She was about 10 years old.
19 She was with her grandfather. They kept kicking her
20 all the time and they were telling her, "Get up, get
22 And the policemen stood there and they didn't
23 dare oppose them in any way. And they were kicking her
24 and she cried. We cried too, but we could not do
25 anything to help. You could not help yourself let
1 alone a child. We were all helpless.
2 Q. After the kicking, did you see what they did
3 with her?
4 A. Well, they did not take her away. The
5 grandfather said, "Don't take the child away. Her
6 father was in prison in Gacko and her mother was
7 expelled too to Macedonia with the women that stayed
8 back in Gacko." So the little girl was along with her
9 grandfather. She was a small child of about 10.
10 Q. I'd like you to turn your mind next, if you
11 would, please, to the 2nd of August, 1992. Does that
12 date stand out in your mind for any particular reason,
13 and if so, can you tell us what it was that happened on
14 that day?
15 A. On the 2nd of August -- on the 2nd of August,
16 there is some holiday. It's a Serb holiday and a
17 Muslim holiday. The Muslims call it Alidza and the
18 Serbs call it Ilinden. On that day, Pero Elez came.
19 He used to come there before as well. He was not on
20 his own, there were a few men with him, and he took a
21 girl away. We knew that they would probably make her
22 talk about the other girls who were there. We were
24 I went to another room with my daughter,
25 where a woman was with her baby, so that she would
1 divert attention. If they came, they could think that
2 it was her baby. She lay next to the baby, covered
3 herself with a blanket. I sat next to her. My other
4 two children remained in the big hall. They were
5 younger, so I wasn't that afraid for them.
6 Around 7.30, it was dark. The doors opened.
7 Two men came in camouflage uniform. A policeman stood
8 at the door. One of these men walked up to my
9 daughter, kicked her, and said, "Get up. What are you
10 waiting for?" She was terrified and remained silent.
11 Again he said, "Get up." And she said, "Are you
12 talking to me?" "Yes, to you. What you are waiting
13 for? Get up."
14 I got up. I started to cry. "Don't take
15 her. She's still a child. If you have to do
16 something, I'll do it, but don't take her away. She's
17 a child." He hit me with his hand. He put his pistol
18 to my forehead, and he lifted his foot. He wanted to
19 kick me.
20 My daughter got up. She started walking
21 towards the door, and I was beside myself. I could not
22 see what was happening any more.
23 Q. Okay. You started that narrative by saying
24 that a Pero Elez came and took a girl away. Was that
25 earlier that same day, the 2nd of August, or was it at
1 the same time that your daughter was taken away?
2 A. He came a few days earlier, but he did not
3 take anyone away. And on that day, they took that girl
4 away an hour earlier.
5 Q. You say -- first of all, could you look at
6 the list? Do you see the name of the girl that Pero
7 Elez took away on that list?
8 A. Yes. The girl's name is there.
9 Q. And is it the last name on the list and
10 there's no number or initial beside her name?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. She was taken about an hour before your
13 daughter was taken away; is that correct?
14 A. Well, yes, an hour earlier. When they took
15 her away, we were immediately scared as to what would
16 happen to the other girls.
17 Q. You said Pero Elez. Was he alone or were
18 other people with him when the last person on
19 Exhibit 214 was taken away?
20 A. He was not alone. I think there were two or
21 three more men with him.
22 Q. When you say "men," were they soldiers or
23 could you tell?
24 A. Well, they came in camouflage, but they also
25 came in civilian clothes, dressed normally. There were
1 some in civilian clothes too.
2 Q. Now, after this incident, did Pero Elez and
3 his group leave with the last girl -- the name of the
4 girl who is last on Exhibit 214? Did they leave?
5 A. They left. And she did not appear after
6 that. Her sister was there at the school. Because she
7 said to us that this man's name was Pero Elez. Before
8 the war, she worked in Kalinovik, so they knew each
10 Q. Had you seen Pero Elez at the Kalinovik
11 school prior to that occasion, and if so, how often did
12 you see him?
13 A. Well, I did see him before. He came several
14 times before that, before that evening.
15 Q. Did he come afterwards as well?
16 A. I think he did. I think he came the next day
17 once more. I saw him, I think.
18 Q. Now, you told us that after Pero Elez took
19 the girl away, you took your daughter to another room
20 in an attempt to hide her, and I understand that you
21 had her with somebody else's baby, under a blanket. Is
22 that correct?
23 A. Yes, it is, but I couldn't hide her, because
24 the man who was at the door went straight up to her and
25 got her up first.
1 Q. Now, you've described to us how that
2 occurred. You told us that it was around 7.30. How do
3 you know that it was around 7.30?
4 A. I had a watch, and when they came into the
5 hall, I happened to look at my watch and saw the time,
6 and I know that it was half past seven very well.
7 Q. In August, August 2nd, if that's the date, do
8 you know whether it was still light out or whether it
9 was getting dark at 7.30 at night, or are you able to
10 tell us?
11 A. Well, it had started growing dark, but you
12 could still see because it was summertime and the days
13 are longer in the summer.
14 Q. You say that this individual came in and took
15 your daughter out, and you described how that
16 happened. Was he alone at the time or were there other
17 people with him?
18 A. There was another man with him, and a
19 policeman who had probably brought him there.
20 Q. Did you get a close look at the man who took
21 your daughter away?
22 A. Yes, I did, because I looked at him. I
23 pleaded with him. I asked him to leave her alone and
24 take me instead.
25 Q. Did you see that man before he came and took
1 your daughter away? On a previous occasion, I mean.
2 A. That was the first time I saw him, when he
3 came and took the girls out.
4 Q. Did you see him on subsequent occasions?
5 A. Yes, I did. He came two more times, and I
6 saw him three times in all.
7 Q. During those other occasions, did you discuss
8 with him the taking of your daughter or the welfare of
9 your daughter? Don't give us the details now but just
10 indicate whether or not you did have dealings with him
11 about your daughter.
12 A. Well, yes, I did, because the man came
13 probably two or three days later. I recognised him
14 straight away, and I went up to him and asked him why
15 he had taken them off and what was going to happen to
16 them and why he hadn't brought them back, and he said
17 that they were with him.
18 Q. All right. The man who you say told your
19 daughter to get up and kicked her and took her away,
20 did you find out what his name was, and if so, how?
21 A. Well, when I came to, after he had hit me and
22 taken away my daughter -- this was a great shock to
23 me -- and later on, when I got back my presence, I went
24 out in the corridor, straight to the guard, and asked
25 him who those people were, who the people were who took
1 the girls out and what was going to happen to the
2 girls. He told me that that man's name was -- that
3 that man's name was Dragoljub Kunarac. But he didn't
4 know his real name at the time. He just told me that
5 his name was Zaga, and the man with him, his name was
6 Gaga. And I asked who they were, and he said they were
7 dangerous, that they had their unit whose name was the
8 White Eagles, and that they were from Foca, and that is
9 how I learnt of his name.
10 Q. Could you describe the individual who took
11 your daughter away?
12 A. Well, yes, I can. He was wearing a
13 camouflage uniform. He was armed. He had a band
14 around his forehead, and he had some bands on his
15 shoulders. He was tall. He had eyes, enormous eyes,
16 big eyes like this, big ones. He had a thin face. He
17 had a sort of naturally wavy hair.
18 Q. Would you recognise this man if you were to
19 see him again?
20 A. I probably would, yes.
21 Q. I'd invite you now to look around the
22 courtroom and tell us whether the individual who took
23 your daughter away is in this courtroom, and if so,
24 where he is.
25 A. It's that first man there.
1 Q. You're pointing in the direction of the rear
2 wall facing you. There are a number of individuals in
3 that row. Counting from left to right, what position
4 is the person occupying that you're pointing out?
5 A. The first man is a policeman wearing a blue
6 shirt, and that man, the one next to him, that first
7 man next to him.
8 Q. Is that the person you refer to as the one
9 who took your daughter away?
10 A. Yes, that's the one. That's him.
11 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honours, may the record
12 show that the witness has identified the accused
13 Dragoljub Kunarac.
14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
15 MR. RYNEVELD:
16 Q. Can you describe the man who was with him,
17 the man that you say the guard told you was Gaga?
18 A. Well, the man with him was the same age.
19 Q. Do you know whether he was taller or shorter
20 or any other distinguishing features about that
22 A. Well, he wasn't taller. His hair was cut
23 short. He had brown hair. Perhaps he was a little
25 Q. Now, you said that when you regained
1 consciousness or perhaps words to that effect -- you
2 left me with the impression that as a result of being
3 struck, you were dazed for a while. Is that correct?
4 A. Yes, that's right.
5 Q. Did you find out how your daughter was taken
6 away from the Kalinovik school?
7 A. Afterwards, I asked the women -- the women
8 were crying because that night, seven or eight girls
9 were taken away, and the mothers cried. The women were
10 screaming. And I asked. I didn't know how many had
11 been taken away straight away, and then they told me
12 that that particular evening, that man had taken away
13 seven girls, and that they were all piled into a car
14 and taken off.
15 Q. Would you please, again, look at Exhibit 214,
16 which is that sheet of paper with the list of names and
17 numbers, and can you tell us whether any of the other
18 girls who were taken a way that night apart from your
19 daughter, Number 191, are on that list?
20 A. 190 is the number, and then there was number
21 186, and here there's -- there are others who were
22 taken away but whose number I can't see here.
23 Q. There is an individual whose initials on this
24 list are JG, do you know whether or not she was at the
25 school and if she was taken away or not?
1 A. Yes. She was at the school. She was in the
2 hall together with me, and that girl was 13 years old.
3 She went to school with my younger daughter and they
4 went to the -- they attended the seventh form, and she
5 was taken out that evening.
6 Q. Did you know the names of the other girls
7 that were taken away or were they not from Gacko?
8 A. Well, I knew about these five from Gacko, but
9 there were three others from Kalinovik. I didn't know
10 their names.
11 Q. You told us, when I asked you whether you had
12 seen this individual who took your daughter away, that
13 you saw him again three or four days later. Is that
14 the same person that you identified as Zaga in this
16 A. Yes, it is.
17 Q. Was he alone at the time?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Who was with him?
20 A. The first time he was with -- I can't
21 remember the name of the person, Gojko Jankovic, and
22 there were some other soldiers as well.
23 Q. Did you have any dealings with him at that
25 A. Well, yes, I did. I asked him straight away
1 about my daughter and the other girls, and he said that
2 they were with him.
3 Q. Was there any further exchange? Were you
4 talking any more or was that it?
5 A. Well, he came again on another occasion.
6 Q. And what happened then?
7 A. The second time he came, Gaga was with him.
8 Another time, there was a woman with him. She was
9 short and blonde and she was armed. And she provoked
10 us a lot. She provoked me too when I asked about my
11 daughter. She provoked me a great deal.
12 And there were some soldiers as well. And
13 when he came, that man, and I recognised him, I asked
14 him about the children, when he would return them. He
15 said that they were at his place and that he wouldn't
16 bring them back.
17 Q. Do you remember an incident where a policeman
18 came to the gym and asked for a person by your
20 A. Yes, I remember.
21 Q. Can you tell us about that incident, please?
22 A. Well, about ten of them came into the hall
23 and they -- that is to say I had my real name, but I
24 also had a nickname. And they asked for me using my
25 nickname. And the women were silent. We were all
1 silent. But he shouted and said if that person doesn't
2 come forward, he would kill us all.
3 And then I got up and said "I am that person,
4 but that is not my real name. I have another name, a
5 real name." And then they took me out into another
6 room. It was a gym hall, a changing room, in fact, and
7 they questioned me there.
8 And Gojko Jankovic was there too, and so was
9 this man Zaga. And Gojko asked me whether I would be
10 able to recognise my daughter's handwriting and I said
11 that I would.
12 So then he took out a letter and when I saw
13 that letter, I recognised her handwriting, but I
14 couldn't read it because I was shaking all over.
15 He read the letter out to me and kept the
16 letter. And the letter said, "Mommy, I'm well. I'm
17 together with the other girls. We're all together.
18 Please send me some clothes."
19 And I sent some clothes and some underwear
20 and I had some money on me, and I wanted to send her
21 some money. But Zaga said there was no need and Gojko
22 said that too, that she didn't need any money.
23 But nonetheless they took the money. They
24 never gave her that money. But they did give her the
1 Q. To whom did you give the clothes and the
2 money to give to your daughter?
3 A. I gave the clothes and the money to Zaga. I
4 gave it to Zaga because he said that my daughter was
5 with him.
6 Q. Were you aware who the other girls were who
7 were with your daughter?
8 A. There was a girl and her number was 186. She
9 is number 186. And there was this little girl, the
10 13-year-old little girl. And later on they separated
11 the little girl from them.
12 She was told that she would be taken back to
13 Kalinovik to her mother, but they didn't take her back
14 to her mother. They took to her Miljevina, because
15 that's where they had a brothel, and there were a lot
16 of girls shut up there in a house.
17 I think that house was known as Karaman's
18 House, and that's where the little girl was until March
19 1993 at Miljevina.
20 Q. By little girl, you're referring to the
21 person on Exhibit 214 with the initials JG?
22 A. Yes, that's right.
23 Q. You were aware that 186 was with your
24 daughter; is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Did you know where 186's mother was?
2 A. Her mother was in Kalinovik, but she wasn't
3 with me in the same hall. She was in another hall.
4 Q. And is her mother 185?
5 A. Yes, she is.
6 Q. As a result of knowing that 185 was somewhere
7 else in the hall, when Zaga and Jankovic came with this
8 letter, did you take them to go see number 185?
9 A. Gojko asked me where the mother was, the
10 mother of this person, this girl, 186, and he told me
11 to take him to the mother. And I took him. And I
12 said, "That's the mother." And he said that she
13 shouldn't worry, that she was with him.
14 Q. And by "she", he was referring to 186?
15 A. Yes, that's the girl. The mother's daughter,
16 yes. The girl is under number 186. The girl is 186
17 and the mother's number is 185.
18 Q. So you were present when Mr. Jankovic told
19 185 that her daughter, 186, was with him. Is that
20 correct? You heard that?
21 A. Yes, that's right.
22 Q. Did 185 give any clothing to be taken to her
23 daughter as well, do you know, or are you aware of
25 A. I remember that she told him, that is to say,
1 she asked him whether he would take her any clothes.
2 And I went back to the hall, so I don't know what
3 happened later on, whether she actually got the clothes
4 together and whether the man took the clothes.
5 Q. You gave some money to Zaga to give to your
6 daughter. Did something happen later that evening with
7 respect to whatever money you had?
8 A. Well, before nightfall, a group arrived and
9 when they came to the door, they told us to take out of
10 our pockets everything we had; money, jewellery and
11 anything else.
12 We had some jewellery and we had some money.
13 The women had this -- some of them had stitched it into
14 their clothing. And I remember that my daughter had
15 stitched in some money and jewellery into a bow, into a
16 ribbon she had around her hair.
17 So before they came to me, before it was my
18 turn, I had to cut this with my teeth and take it out,
19 and so I handed over all my money and all my
20 jewellery. And everything -- everybody else did the
22 I had a little left in a pocket of mine that
23 was separate from the rest. And what remained, I
24 wanted to give to my daughter but she never got it.
25 Q. Were you told what would happen to you if you
1 didn't turn over your valuables?
2 A. Well, they told us that if we didn't hand
3 them over, they would come back and then would -- they
4 would search us, search all our clothing and our
5 rucksacks and if they found anything, then they would
6 kill that person.
7 So the women were terrified and all of us
8 gave what we had.
9 Q. You told us that you saw Zaga on a number of
10 occasions. Were there occasions when men belonging to
11 Zaga's unit came to the Kalinovik school and, if so,
12 how do you know that they were his men?
13 A. I knew they were his men because they came
14 with him. And he came three times. The first time on
15 the 2nd of August when he took the girls away, and then
16 he came two more times, but I didn't see him anymore.
17 Q. Did his men continue to come without him?
18 A. No, they didn't come again.
19 Q. Do you remember an incident when Zaga came
20 with a female soldier?
21 A. Well, that was the one. I heard from Zaga
22 that he referred to her as Jasna or Jaco and this
23 woman's name was Jadranka. I think her surname was
25 Q. And was that the occasion that you have told
1 us about where you asked the whereabouts of the
2 children that were taken away?
3 A. Yes, yes. I asked them then where the
4 children were. They were in the hall. And as they
5 were going out, I went out after them to ask them where
6 the children were and when they would be returned. He
7 said no, they were with him and they wouldn't be coming
9 And then I said what was going to happen to
10 us? And he said quite simply, "Well, we'll just kill
11 you." He said, "I killed 20 people last night in the
12 gunpowder storehouse." That's what he said to me and I
13 had nothing else to say to him.
14 Jadranka provoked me she had a knife and she
15 would pass the knife over her lips, over her mouth, and
16 she would say to me in the hallway that she had been
17 all over Croatia to the front there, and that all her
18 people would be killed and she would take her revenge,
19 and she was terrible as a woman.
20 Q. Later that same day, did you receive a second
21 letter, and if so, from whom?
22 A. I received a letter from my daughter. Zaga
23 brought the letter. But there was nothing much in the
24 letter. All my daughter had written was, "Mommy, I'm
25 well. I am together with the other girls. Please look
1 after my brother and sister. Lots of love, from your
3 Q. Were you allowed to keep that letter, unlike
4 the first letter?
5 A. I was allowed to. The letter stayed with me,
6 but I've lost the letter since.
7 Q. When Zaga came with soldiers, could you tell
8 who was in charge?
9 A. Well, the one in charge was Zaga, because
10 they came with him and they obeyed him. And that day
11 in the corridor, when I was asking about my daughter,
12 he was indicating houses through the window, and
13 garages, and he was indicating this to the soldiers.
14 There were five or six soldiers and he was busy showing
15 them something. He was telling them to loot the
16 garages, in fact, and to take the cars in them. They
17 left, and he stayed on with Jadranka and Gaga.
18 Q. Did you complain to Zaga about having been
19 robbed and, if so, did he give a response?
20 A. Yes, I did tell him. I told him we had been
21 robbed and that our gold and jewellery had been taken
22 and our money, and he said that these weren't his men
23 but that these were men -- I can't remember. I know
24 their name, but I can't seem to remember.
25 Q. Was that the last time you saw Zaga in
2 A. Yes, it is.
3 Q. Do you know approximately over what period of
4 time, from the 2nd of August to the last time you saw
5 Zaga, how long a period of time that you saw him those
6 three or four occasions?
7 A. Well, it was all in the space of a week. I
8 just remembered -- that is to say, I remembered when he
9 said that they weren't his people, his men, but Cosa's
10 men, the people who had looted us, Cosa's men.
11 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honours, I note the
12 time. I will have probably another 15 to 20 minutes
13 with this witness. I realise that we're here for a
14 break, but I do understand that the witness is planning
15 on staying for a period of time. I'm in the Court's
16 hands. There is, of course, still cross-examination
17 even when I'm done.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. So we will have to break
19 off now. Our next proceedings are which date, if you
20 can remember?
21 MR. RYNEVELD: My understanding is it is the
22 15th of this month.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: The 15th of June, yes.
24 MR. RYNEVELD: May. May, yes.
25 JUDGE MUMBA: I'm running fast. Okay. We
1 are adjourned now. Our next sitting will be on the
2 15th of May at 09.30 hours.
3 Witness, you have to come back then.
4 MR. RYNEVELD: If I may just indicate that in
5 preparation for the following week's proceedings, we do
6 have a list of witnesses here that we can distribute at
7 this time so that both my learned friends and the Court
8 is aware of the line-up that we anticipate for the next
9 week of sitting.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. In the meantime, the
11 Court will rise.
12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
13 at 4.00 p.m., to be reconvened on
14 Monday, the 15th day of May, 2000
15 at 9.30 a.m.