Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3056

1 Monday, 15 May 2000

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning. The registrar

6 please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] IT-96-23-T,

8 IT-96-23/1-T, the Prosecutor versus Dragoljub Kunarac,

9 Radomir Kovac, and Zoran Vukovic.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: We have received a motion by

11 the Prosecution for an additional witness.

12 Mr. Ryneveld.

13 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, indeed. Correct, Your

14 Honour. We have filed, last day, a motion for the

15 Court's consent to add Witness 105 to the list of

16 Prosecution witnesses, and the contents of our motion,

17 I believe, are before you. I do understand that my

18 learned friend may have something to say about that,

19 and if the Court wishes to hear from the Prosecution,

20 I'd ask that Ms. Kuo respond.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

22 MR. RYNEVELD: There are some other matters I

23 might also raise.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, after this one.

25 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

Page 3057

1 The Defence. Mr. Prodanovic. On the motion

2 by the Prosecution for an additional witness, FWS-105.

3 Can I hear Mr. Prodanovic first, please, or is there a

4 preliminary problem?

5 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

6 we agreed that with respect to this motion, my

7 colleague should speak first, but before we say

8 anything about it, we would like to tell the Court that

9 today we have not all been able to come, and my

10 colleagues will say why.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

12 MS. LOPICIC: [Interpretation] I would like to

13 inform the Court, as the co-counsel for the accused

14 Zoran Vukovic, that chief counsel, Goran Jovanovic, was

15 unable to attend today. He was unable to come to The

16 Hague because he had some formal problems about

17 obtaining a Dutch visa in the Embassy of the

18 Netherlands in Belgrade, and I think that this problem

19 should be solved as soon as possible so that

20 Mr. Jovanovic can come here.

21 I would also like to inform the accused Zoran

22 Vukovic of this problem, and he should also say

23 something about this problem.

24 I would also like to say that the witnesses

25 will not be cross-examined as regards Zoran Vukovic

Page 3058

1 until his counsel in chief arrives.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Why? That is why we have

3 co-counsel. The co-counsel is to take over whenever

4 the chief counsel fails to do so for any reason. That

5 is why you are here as co-counsel. You're supposed to

6 take over. Why should we wait for cross-examination by

7 Mr. Jovanovic?

8 MS. LOPICIC: [Interpretation] I understand

9 this, Your Honour, but the accused Zoran Vukovic should

10 say something about this. I ask the Court to ask Zoran

11 Vukovic about it.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE MUMBA: The Trial Chamber is of the

14 view that the accused cannot be given audience because

15 the accused is represented, and the co-counsel should

16 get instructions from the accused and the co-counsel

17 should address the Trial Chamber if there is need.

18 Having said that, the co-counsel will continue with the

19 trial. That is the reason why there are two advocates

20 appearing for accused persons in this trial.

21 So if you wish a few minutes to consult your

22 client, fair. I will give you those few minutes.

23 MS. LOPICIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

24 Honour. If you would just give me a minute to consult

25 my client.

Page 3059

1 [Defence counsel and accused confer].

2 MR. LOPICIC: [Interpretation] The accused

3 Zoran Vukovic agrees that I should continue.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The trial will continue

5 with you representing the accused.

6 The problems of the late counsel will be

7 sorted out, and I would invite the Registry to deal

8 with that behind the scenes. In the meantime, the

9 trial will continue.

10 Now, about the additional witness, any

11 submissions, since you are already on your feet?

12 MS. LOPICIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

13 Honour. I wish to tell the Court that on the 11th of

14 May, the Defence received a fax with the Prosecutor's

15 motion asking that a witness, Witness FWS-105 should be

16 added to the list of Prosecution witnesses, and on the

17 10th of May, this witness expressed her willingness to

18 testify, and that the witness should be heard in the

19 week of 22nd May on, immediately after Witness DB.

20 The Defence of the accused Vukovic objects to

21 this manner of bringing witnesses before the Court,

22 because Witness 105, in two previous statements of the

23 9th, 10th, and 11th February of 1966 [sic], and the

24 17th of April, 1998, never mentioned the accused

25 Vukovic; just that she never mentioned him when

Page 3060

1 interviewed by the investigators.

2 So the witnesses cannot say that they were

3 not asked about certain accused, because it is quite

4 evident that when an accused is arrested, they mention

5 the names of the people who have been arrested because

6 they have heard about it. And the Defence would like

7 to express its concern about this way of questioning

8 witnesses and asking them to come and testify, because

9 to confirm what Witness FWS-105 said, we have to say

10 that they never mentioned Vukovic before and did not

11 identify him before. That is why the Defence objects

12 to FWS-105.

13 We would like to say that today, we looked in

14 our box and we found unredacted statements of 105 and

15 105A in English -- in B/C/S, but we only received some

16 statements, unredacted.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: I'm not clear about-- you

18 received the statements of 105 unredacted? You already

19 received --

20 MS. LOPICIC: [Interpretation] In B/C/S, we

21 received 105 and 105A, which were redacted. And today,

22 in our box, we received 105 and 105A in B/C/S and in

23 English.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Unredacted? So in effect you'd

25 like time to consult, to look through the statement,

Page 3061

1 and also get instructions from your client?

2 MS. LOPICIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: And your objection to FWS-105

4 is simply because, according to you, in her statements,

5 previous statements, previous to the arrest of the

6 accused, she never mentioned Zoran Vukovic. That is

7 not a valid point, because this witness will come to

8 court and make a solemn declaration and give whatever

9 evidence the Prosecution wishes to draw from her, and

10 you'll be allowed to cross-examine and put those issues

11 to her. In any case, whatever she will say goes to the

12 weight that the Trial Chamber should attach to the

13 evidence of this witness. So it's not a valid point

14 for objection to the witness giving evidence in the

15 Trial Chamber, in this Trial Chamber.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think we've got all the

18 points, and before we make a final ruling, we would

19 like to hear the other counsel.

20 MS. LOPICIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your

21 Honour.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar, since we started

23 from this side, we may as well make Mr. Prodanovic the

24 last one.

25 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I

Page 3062

1 fully agree with what Defence counsel for Zoran Vukovic

2 has said, and I am aware of what my colleague

3 Mr. Prodanovic will say, and I support what he will

4 say.

5 Now that I have risen, I would like to tell

6 the Court that the registry has approved the

7 appointment of co-counsel as of 9th May, and that is my

8 young colleague, Vladimir Rajic, who will assist me in

9 the defence of my client. So I would like to introduce

10 him now.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Rajic, welcome to this

12 trial.

13 MR. RAJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Prodanovic, please.

15 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

16 the Defence of the accused Kunarac agrees with the

17 standpoint of my colleague, the counsel for the accused

18 Vukovic. We would only like to add that Witness 105,

19 in her previous statements, said that she had only seen

20 the accused Kunarac once, and she mentioned that he had

21 a beard and a moustache. We are afraid that this

22 witness, when she comes, will give more information

23 about Mr. Kunarac, and we fear that the witnesses may

24 have been told to mention certain details, because it

25 is illogical that they did not remember these details

Page 3063

1 five years ago when they made their statements, and yet

2 they remember them now, eight years after the event.

3 That is our standpoint, of course, and it is up to the

4 Trial Chamber to make its ruling.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Of course, like I said to your

6 colleague, that those are matters that you put to the

7 witness in cross-examination. And if you have evidence

8 that she has been told what to tell this Trial Chamber,

9 you simply produce the evidence.

10 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

11 I only wish to remind you that about two weeks ago we

12 heard Witness 48, and regardless of how hard the

13 Defence tried to get the witness to talk about the

14 statement she gave to the police in Sarajevo, the

15 witness kept denying this, and it is very relevant for

16 us to compare this statement with her other

17 statements. When the Defence finished its

18 cross-examination, it was sufficient for the

19 Prosecution to put one question for the witness to

20 recall this, but our cross-examination had already been

21 completed, so we could not ask any further questions

22 about it. I would like to stress that we are in a very

23 unfavourable situation, because the witnesses always

24 say that they do not remember when we ask them

25 something, and yet they are under oath, and that is why

Page 3064

1 we are concerned.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Prodanovic, you seem to

3 assume that merely because a witness gives evidence

4 here, that the evidence will be accepted. We are here

5 to judge the weight to be afforded to those witnesses.

6 I have not made up my mind about Witness 48

7 at all, but everything you've said goes very much to

8 her credit and to her denial of having given that

9 interview. If the Prosecution accepts, or you are able

10 to establish that she did in fact give it, that goes

11 very strongly to her credit. You have to just trust us

12 to be able to judge the weight.

13 The issue here is not whether we're going to

14 accept these witnesses; the issue here is whether

15 you're going to be in a position to meet the case that

16 they bring. Now, you're certainly in a position, I

17 would have thought, to be able to cross-examine her

18 about her prior inconsistent statements. The real

19 issue, as the presiding Judge has put to you -- or put

20 to your colleague, is whether you are in a position to

21 meet it. And in relation to that, you do, of course,

22 have the fact that you only knew her identity

23 apparently this morning.

24 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] I

25 understand, Your Honour. Thank you.

Page 3065

1 JUDGE MUMBA: I want to confirm with the

2 Prosecution whether -- about when the statements,

3 particularly in B/C/S, Serbo-Croat, unredacted ones,

4 when they were served on the Defence.

5 Ms. Kuo, please..

6 MS. KUO: Your Honours, the unredacted

7 statement was served indeed over the weekend and

8 received by Defence counsel this morning. However,

9 they have been in possession of the redacted

10 statements, as part of the supporting materials -- at

11 least, Mr. Prodanovic should have received that for

12 almost two years.

13 And it's also -- her name has been mentioned

14 by other witnesses through the witness list. Obviously

15 she was present, and so her number has come up, and her

16 name next to it, in some of those confidential witness

17 lists that we've submitted during the course of trial.

18 JUDGE HUNT: That doesn't mean, of course,

19 that they've made any investigation in relation to her,

20 now knowing who she, is if they only have been told

21 recently that she's going to be called as a witness.

22 MS. KUO: That's true, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE HUNT: The problem I have with this is

24 that the 22nd of May, when you're suggesting she should

25 be called, will give them no opportunity to make

Page 3066

1 inquiries in the former Yugoslavia about her.

2 MS. KUO: That is a problem, Your Honour.

3 We're not anticipating calling her directly on the

4 22nd; just that week. If the Court wishes, we can

5 place her testimony at the end of the trial, if that is

6 what Defence counsel wishes, to enable them to

7 investigate.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. To allow the

9 Defence counsel and their clients to receive full

10 instructions regarding the evidence of this witness,

11 105, the Trial Chamber will allow time to the Defence

12 so that they, perhaps during the break, can investigate

13 the evidence, as well as the witness herself, before

14 the Prosecution can call the witness. So we are

15 allowing the motion, but the witness should be called

16 after the break of the 5th of June. If it means that

17 will be the only witness remaining for the Prosecution,

18 then let it be.

19 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honours. I

20 had indicated that there were some other matters that I

21 wanted to bring to the Court's attention. Some of

22 those are just in the way of courtesy information to

23 both the Court and to my learned friends in terms of

24 our view as to the way in which the matter is

25 proceeding.

Page 3067

1 And the first thing that I wanted to advise

2 was that a reevaluation of our case has led us to

3 conclude that we will no longer be calling Dr. Rogers,

4 no longer propose to call Dr. Gow, and no longer

5 propose, during the course of the Prosecution case, as

6 we see it thus far, Dr. Rath. So in other words, there

7 will be three experts which we do not feel that we will

8 be calling as part of our case.

9 That will leave Dr. Cleiren as our sole

10 proposed expert witness. Keeping those matters in

11 mind --

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Before you even proceed, can

13 you make an unequivocal statement that you're not

14 calling Rogers, you're not calling Gow, you're not

15 calling Rath. This is important so that the Defence

16 can deal with it.

17 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, and that's why I'm

18 raising it at the first opportunity. Now, of course,

19 we'll still have two other experts, that is, Nogo and

20 Alic, who we have advised about before, but I'm just

21 talking about the elimination of those three witnesses,

22 so that my friends aren't spending time preparing for

23 someone that we don't intend to call, or the Court

24 having to concern itself with that evidence.

25 Now, the reason I mention that, apart from

Page 3068

1 the courtesy to everyone, is to give the Court some

2 idea of how this may affect the way we see the

3 scheduling being affected thereby.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Before we leave these three, I

5 know that Dr. Cleiren's statement is in. And the next

6 one, is it Rogo [sic]?

7 MR. RYNEVELD: Nogo.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Nogo.

9 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. And Alic.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: And Alic. Their statements are

11 already in.

12 MR. RYNEVELD: Everything is already in.

13 Everybody has copies of it. Everybody knows what the

14 issues are. Those are the military experts.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: So these three are the only

16 experts.

17 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. We also have, of course,

18 Mr. Subasic that I made an application for some time

19 ago, but we indicated to the Court that we view him

20 largely as a fact witness.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay.

22 MR. RYNEVELD: So if we're talking -- where

23 we're asking the traditional opinion evidence from an

24 expert, it would be in those three areas.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. Thank you. Yes.

Page 3069

1 MR. RYNEVELD: Having said that, if I may,

2 depending, of course, on circumstances such as Visas

3 and things like that and the length of

4 cross-examination, we can foresee that perhaps -- it's

5 not unreasonable to expect that at the end of the

6 three-week session that we have planned, the

7 Prosecution case may be closed, but for -- we may just

8 have 105 for the first day if that is what you wish.

9 I'm just letting you know that before making a

10 decision -- give you an idea of the timing.

11 While I'm on my feet, unless you wish us to

12 say anything further about that, I understand that the

13 Defence also has an existing application which reads:

14 "Defence Joint Request for Presence of Defence Experts

15 During the Trial."

16 I don't think, by reading the motion -- the

17 title --

18 JUDGE HUNT: The title certainly doesn't

19 reflect what they want.

20 MR. RYNEVELD: No. And if my friends are

21 seeking the relief that is actually in their request,

22 then the Prosecution has no objection. And I assume

23 that the Court will again, in the event you're so

24 disposed as to grant the order, that you would include

25 the requirement of a written acknowledgement for the

Page 3070

1 protective measures, but other than that, I don't wish

2 to say anything.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. Before the bench

4 consults, may I have a response -- the clarification

5 from the Prosecution on the Defence medical experts and

6 the motion by the Defence? Anything else?

7 MS. LOPICIC: [Interpretation] The Defence has

8 submitted a motion dated the 8th of May, 2000 in answer

9 to the motion mentioned by my learned colleague

10 Mr. Dirk Ryneveld. The Defence requests that medical

11 experts should be consulted as regards witnesses

12 FWS-50, 95, 96, 191, and 190 [Realtime transcript read

13 in error: F and 190], because in that the last motion

14 submitted by the joint defence of Kunarac, Kovac, and

15 Vukovic, the Defence asked that the statements made by

16 these witnesses should be shown to medical experts for

17 their opinion, and the Defence was only granted

18 approval for this for FWS-48, 75, 87, 101, and 205, but

19 as regards the witnesses mentioned just now, the Trial

20 Chamber has not made a ruling, which is why the Defence

21 submitted this motion.

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 JUDGE MUMBA: You still want to make some

24 submission?

25 MS. LOPICIC: [Interpretation] I have

Page 3071

1 concluded with regard to this matter.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. The Trial Chamber

3 will issue a decision in writing.

4 MS. LOPICIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your

5 Honour.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: I thought Mr. Prodanovic wanted

7 to say something.

8 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your

9 Honour. No. I do not wish to repeat what my colleague

10 has just said.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Regarding the calling of

12 Prosecution Witness 105, the Trial Chamber will allow

13 the motion, and the witness will come after the break,

14 that is, after the 5th of June. If that be the only

15 Prosecution witness remaining, the Trial Chamber is

16 concerned with fairness of the trial. The Trial

17 Chamber is concerned that the accused persons, who are

18 in detention at The Hague, should have sufficient time

19 to give instructions to their counsel. So that if need

20 be, they can make their investigations in the former

21 Yugoslavia regarding the evidence and the identity of

22 this witness.

23 So FWS-105 will be called by the Prosecution

24 after 5th of June this year.

25 Anything else?

Page 3072

1 MR. RYNEVELD: No, Your Honour. I believe

2 those are the preliminary matters. I propose, unless

3 it's inconvenient, I would propose that we continue

4 with Witness 192, who was three-quarters of the way

5 through chief.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We will continue with the

7 examination-in-chief of the last witness, and she may

8 be brought into court, with all the protective measures

9 in force.

10 MR. RYNEVELD: Madam Registrar, while we're

11 waiting, could Exhibit 214 be made available for the

12 witness. That's the list of names.

13 [The witness entered court]

14 WITNESS: WITNESS 192 [Resumed]

15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 MS. LOPICIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise,

17 Your Honour. I looked at the transcript now. As I was

18 speaking about the submission made been the 8th of May,

19 2000, the numbers of the witnesses I referred to and

20 the Defence wishes to have medical documentation

21 disclosed upon, it says "F and 190."

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Can you repeat the correct

23 numbers then, please?

24 MS. LOPICIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

25 Honour. The Defence wishes the medical experts to see

Page 3073

1 the documents for FWS-50, FWS-95 -- perhaps I should

2 say it in the English language.

3 [In English] Disclose the witness statements

4 of the following OTP witnesses: FWS-50, FWS-95,

5 FWS-186, FWS-191, FWS-190, and FWS-175, the medical

6 experts the Defence intends to call.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Is it FWS-50, or FWS-150?

8 MS. LOPICIC: FWS-50.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. We'll deal with

10 that in our written decision.

11 MS. LOPICIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning, Witness. We are

13 continuing with examination-in-chief by the

14 Prosecution, and you are still under solemn

15 declaration.

16 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Examined by Mr. Ryneveld: [Contd.]

18 Q. Now, Witness, I understand it's been some

19 time since you gave evidence, and I just want to ask a

20 couple of questions, if I may, to clarify some of the

21 issues in your testimony last day.

22 I believe, during the course of your

23 evidence, you mentioned an individual by the name of

24 Pero Elez. Did you know him before this conflict?

25 A. [No translation]

Page 3074

1 MR. RYNEVELD: I'm sorry, I didn't get a

2 translation.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: We didn't get a translation

4 either.

5 MR. RYNEVELD: Should I try again?

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, please.

7 MR. RYNEVELD:

8 Q. Witness, prior to the conflict in 1992, did

9 you know a Pero Elez?

10 A. I did not know Pero.

11 Q. How did you learn his name?

12 A. I learnt his name from the sister that Pero

13 Elez had taken away, rather, the sister of the girl

14 that Pero Elez had taken away.

15 Q. And are you able to describe what this Pero

16 Elez looked like when you saw him at Kalinovik?

17 A. He was a big man. He had a beard too.

18 Q. All right. The next area that I would like

19 clarification is you mentioned to us, during the course

20 of your evidence, that there was a discussion between

21 you and an individual called Zaga about the bombing of

22 cafes, and can you tell us when exactly that discussion

23 took place and under what circumstances?

24 A. This happened because I asked who this man

25 was, since he had taken our children away. I found out

Page 3075

1 from a policeman what he was called. He didn't know

2 his real name. He just said that he went by the name

3 of Zaga.

4 I asked later about my children. I don't

5 know. We talked about something else too. Then he

6 asked me whether I remembered the cafes that were blown

7 up in Gacko, and I said I did remember. This was the

8 end of April. He said that he had done it, because the

9 first disturbances in Gacko were created by Beli

10 Orlovi, the White Eagles, and he said that he was

11 there.

12 Q. When you say "he," who are you now referring

13 to when you say you had a conversation with a gentleman

14 and that he said that he had done it?

15 A. Zaga, Dragan Kunarac.

16 Q. And that's the individual that you identified

17 in this courtroom last day?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, Witness, do you remember when it was

20 that you were arrested? Was that the 4th of July,

21 1992?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And when were you ultimately released or

24 exchanged? Do you remember that date?

25 A. The 1st of September.

Page 3076

1 Q. Now, you've given evidence about the

2 situation at Kalinovik, and I asked you a question

3 about what -- the circumstances that you found yourself

4 in, and I believe you used the word "horrible." Can

5 you tell me or tell the Court whether your treatment at

6 the Kalinovik school was the same from the time you

7 first got there until the very end or did circumstances

8 change?

9 A. This started later, after the girls were

10 taken away. A few days before we came to Kalinovik we

11 could go out; women could go and buy bread. That was

12 only during the first two or three days after we were

13 brought to Kalinovik. Later, they didn't let us leave

14 the school.

15 Q. Do I understand from your answer that the

16 situation became worse after the 2nd of August, the

17 date when the girls were taken away?

18 A. Well, yes. Later it was worse. From the 2nd

19 of August onwards, they would come during the day and

20 during the night. During the night they would ask the

21 guards for torch lights and they would go into the room

22 and they would select women; they would select young

23 women, girls, and they would take them out into the

24 hall. Then they would rape women and girls in the hall

25 and they would take them to other rooms. This happened

Page 3077

1 day and night.

2 Q. How do you know what they did with the women

3 when they took them out? Did you see it or did you

4 hear about it or did you hear any noises? Can you tell

5 us the source of your information?

6 A. Well, some of the women who were taken out

7 and raped talked about it; others remained silent.

8 There was a sister-in-law of mine. She was 55 years

9 old. And it was about 10.00 or 11.00 at night they

10 came; soldiers came. They asked for her

11 daughter-in-law, that she was supposed to take a letter

12 to someone, that there would be an exchange. We all

13 knew that there was no exchange concerned. That could

14 not happen at night.

15 She was frightened and she started to cry.

16 My sister-in-law said, "Let me take the letter. Leave

17 her alone." They took this sister-in-law of mine out.

18 She was the mother-in-law of her daughter-in-law. They

19 kept her outside for about half an hour. She returned

20 crying. She walked up to me and she said, "They raped

21 me."

22 Q. This sister-in-law of yours, would you look

23 at Exhibit -- there's a sheet of paper with Exhibit

24 214. That's the sheet of paper you referred to. Do

25 you see the name of your sister-in-law on that sheet of

Page 3078

1 paper underneath the number 186? Do you see 186?

2 A. I see that, but that's not that person.

3 Q. Right. And there's a name immediately under

4 that line. Do you see -- is that the name of the

5 person to whom you refer as your sister-in-law?

6 A. Yes, that's her name.

7 Q. Do you remember approximately when it was

8 that your sister-in-law was taken out and later

9 recounted to you that she had been raped?

10 A. I cannot remember the date. This was after

11 the girls were taken away. They would take them out

12 after that all the time, into the halls and into the

13 other rooms, but I just know it was during the night.

14 Q. Could you also tell us who it was who took

15 the girls and women out? Can you describe what they

16 looked like or whether they were soldiers, or did you

17 know any by name?

18 A. They were soldiers, but I wouldn't know their

19 names, no.

20 Q. Do you recall the types of uniforms they may

21 have worn?

22 A. Camouflage.

23 Q. Do you recall how women were selected? Were

24 you present when women were selected to be taken out?

25 A. Yes, I was. When they would come during the

Page 3079

1 day, they would make us get up, all of us. Then they

2 would say, "You come out. You, you." And they would

3 take them out through the door.

4 There were soldiers from Montenegro and from

5 Serbia. One could recognise them by their accent, by

6 the way they spoke.

7 Q. That was during the day. Did it also occur

8 at night-time, and if so, how did it happen at

9 night-time?

10 A. It would happen during the night too. On one

11 occasion, in the early evening, two men came on

12 horseback. They were from Serbia. We recognised their

13 accents. They left their horses in front of the

14 school. These two men walked in. This was in the

15 early evening. They took one of our women away. They

16 took her to where their soldiers were.

17 She was there all night. They returned her

18 the next day, around 8.00, between 8.00 or 9.00 or

19 10.00. She told all of us that throughout the night

20 everyone had raped her, all the soldiers who happened

21 to be there. The woman could not walk.

22 She was ashamed of it, but she did say it.

23 She said that all of those who were present raped her.

24 And these same men who came on horseback returned her

25 the next day. They went on horseback and she had to

Page 3080

1 walk by them.

2 Q. Apart from these Serbian men on horseback,

3 were there other soldiers who came during the

4 night-time to take away women, and if so, what manner

5 was the selection process adopted at night?

6 A. They would come during the night. They would

7 ask the guards for torch lights. If they didn't have

8 any, then they would go into the room and ask women for

9 lighters or matches. The guards told us that even if

10 someone had a lighter or matches, that they should hide

11 them, not to give them to them, because then they would

12 light these matches and they would look for the younger

13 women and simply take them out.

14 Q. While you were at Kalinovik school, did any

15 representatives of police authorities ever come to the

16 Kalinovik school? For example, the chief of police,

17 did he ever come to the school?

18 A. He would come, the chief of police, and also

19 I think the -- there was a man called Govedarica and a

20 man called Zeljaja. Once the representative of the SDS

21 came. That's how he introduced himself to us, that he

22 was the president of the SDS of Kalinovik.

23 Q. What did he do when he came?

24 A. He asked where we were from, why we had come

25 there, who had brought us there, where our husbands

Page 3081

1 were. It's not that they would take women out or

2 something. They didn't even make any threats; they

3 just asked these questions.

4 Q. It was quite apparent, however, that the

5 women were detained there when they came to the school?

6 A. Well, yes. We were all detained. We could

7 not go out. The soldiers came whenever they wanted to,

8 day and night. The soldiers -- the guards who could

9 would defend us, but others, other guards did not.

10 They would even help them. They would give them torch

11 lights at night.

12 Q. I'd like you now to tell us about the

13 circumstances just prior to your exchange or release.

14 I understand that eventually an exchange did take place

15 between some women for something else. Can you tell us

16 how that happened?

17 A. I remember, when Kunarac came for the second

18 or third time, I asked him why he took our girls away

19 and why he hit me. He then said to me that fighting

20 had been taking place at Trnovo and at Rogoj, and that

21 some relatives of his had been killed and that he was

22 very angry.

23 Q. Yes? What happened next?

24 A. After that, there was an exchange. Some

25 women went before me. They carried those messages.

Page 3082

1 But until then, there hadn't been any exchanges. A

2 truck full of women had been released before I was.

3 They went towards Trnovo and Rogoj. That's where they

4 went. We went after that. The place that we were

5 exchanged at is called Jakomisje.

6 Q. Prior to the exchange in which you were

7 involved, I understand that you served as a messenger;

8 is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Can you tell us how it was that you were

11 selected to be a messenger and exactly what your duties

12 were? Tell us about the details of that incident.

13 A. This was a few days before we were

14 exchanged. In the afternoon the chief of police came,

15 this Govedarica, from Kalinovik, and Zeljaja also

16 came. They were either in Kalinovik or in Ulog, but

17 that's exactly where they were. There were also some

18 soldiers.

19 They entered the hall where I was. They

20 asked who would take a letter to the BH army, where

21 they were holding the line, and I got up and I said, "I

22 will." They took me out in front of the school. There

23 were quite a few soldiers there. There were a few

24 vehicles. They asked me whether I had any children,

25 and I said that I did, that I had two. They said that

Page 3083

1 I had to take a message to the BH army, and that if I

2 did not come back, that they would kill my children.

3 They blindfolded me with a white cloth. They

4 took me into a vehicle. I don't know what the vehicle

5 was like, because I was blindfolded. I don't know how

6 many people were next to me. I just heard them

7 talking.

8 They brought me to a hill. They took me out

9 of the vehicle. They took the blindfold off and they

10 showed me a hill that was held by the BH army. They

11 gave me a stick with a white cloth tied to it. They

12 said that I should carry that in my hands. They said

13 that I should not turn back, that I should just look

14 straight ahead. They said that they had binoculars and

15 that they would be watching me, and that's how I went.

16 Q. Just before we move on, why did you

17 volunteer?

18 A. I volunteered because we could not stand it

19 anymore. Whenever these soldiers would come, or the

20 police, Zeljaja and Govedarica, I always asked about

21 the girls, my daughter, and I said -- I simply couldn't

22 take it anymore, and I said, "Well, whatever. Let this

23 happen to me too." I had a younger daughter as well.

24 The next day, when -- or actually, when

25 Kunarac took my daughter away, the day after that

Page 3084

1 another group came. She was 13 years old. They told

2 all of us to get up. We got up. This one man walked

3 up to my daughter, took her by the hand, and said, "You

4 come out." And I started to cry and scream. And I

5 held her by the sleeve and he was holding her on the

6 other side. I said, "You already took one of my

7 daughters. Are you going to take the other one too?"

8 One soldier said, "Kolja," that's how he addressed him,

9 Kolja, "Let her go," and he did, actually. I was

10 always afraid for her as well.

11 Q. So if I understand you correctly, your older

12 daughter, who you've already spoken about, that's 191

13 on the list; is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And your other daughter was how old, 13 or

16 10?

17 A. Thirteen.

18 Q. And the 10-year-old was your son; is that

19 correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. So when you volunteered and they asked you if

22 you had any children and you told them two, you meant

23 the two remaining after 191 was taken away; is that

24 what you meant?

25 A. Yes. Yes. I was referring to my other two

Page 3085

1 children, who stayed at the school when I was taken

2 away.

3 Q. Thank you for clarifying that. Now, you were

4 given a stick with a white flag on it and you were

5 given a letter. Do you know what was in the letter?

6 A. I don't know what was in the letter, but I

7 handed the letter over when I came to this hill. Men

8 approached me and told me to stop, and I stopped. They

9 walked up to me and asked me who I was. I said that I

10 was one of the women from the school in Kalinovik and

11 that I had a letter for the army. They said to me,

12 "Come with us."

13 I heard these men talking amongst themselves,

14 saying that they were supposed to collect some corpses

15 of some 11 Serbs. I think that there was some fighting

16 there that had taken place a few days earlier, and

17 these men were killed. So then they asked the army

18 that they collect the bodies of these dead soldiers and

19 hand them over and that in return they release us.

20 Q. Had they taken your blindfold off when they

21 sent you on your mission to go to the BiH army?

22 A. Yes, and they said that I should not look

23 back, that I should only walk straight ahead. It was

24 just a small footpath, a little old path. It was a

25 path where there were bodies scattered all around, and

Page 3086

1 there was also a vehicle that was out of order, an

2 APC.

3 Q. When you got to the front line, as it were,

4 the people that you spoke to, were they Serbs or

5 Muslims or could you tell?

6 A. Well, they were Muslims.

7 Q. How were they dressed?

8 A. They wore civilian clothes. They wore

9 tracksuits, tennis shoes. Some of them had

10 boots on. They did not have uniforms. They did not

11 have camouflage uniforms. They did later but not then.

12 Q. Could you tell if or how they were armed when

13 you turned over the letter?

14 A. Yes. They had guns.

15 Q. How long did you spend with the

16 representatives of the Muslim army?

17 A. Well, I don't know. Maybe about an hour,

18 because they wrote a letter and then they gave it to

19 me, and I had to take it back and hand it over to the

20 people who had sent me. So it could have been about an

21 hour that I was there.

22 Q. Could you recognise the area where you were,

23 in other words, where the front line or where these

24 bodies were? Do you know what area it was that you

25 were taken to by car?

Page 3087

1 A. Well, I don't know. There were woods, there

2 were meadows, but the footpath I took was through a

3 place where there had been fighting, because I saw

4 parts of arms and legs lying around. There was a

5 broken-down vehicle there, parts of vehicles, and the

6 road was badly damaged. And it was still daylight, so

7 I could see that.

8 Q. Did you return the letter to the Serb

9 representatives who had sent you?

10 A. Yes, I did. I gave them the letter.

11 Q. How long would it have taken you to go from

12 the Muslim side back to the Serb side?

13 A. Well, it was already getting dark. I don't

14 know. I know that I came back to where the Serbs

15 were. It was 10.00 p.m., and a man was waiting for me

16 there. He took me to a village where there were Serb

17 soldiers. It was a Muslim village. It was moonlight,

18 and I could see that there had been a mosque there and

19 half the minaret was missing, and then I recognised it

20 as a Muslim village.

21 Q. Do I take it you do not know the name of the

22 village?

23 A. No, I don't know the name. It was the first

24 time I'd been there.

25 Q. When you arrived at this village, who was

Page 3088

1 present?

2 A. Well, the people who had sent me. There were

3 a lot of soldiers there. Probably they had a base

4 there. They slept there and spent time there, because

5 there were several houses there, and the people to whom

6 I had to give the letter were asleep. There were two

7 or three houses there where they slept. Some of them

8 were inside and others were outdoors.

9 Q. You had earlier told us that when you were

10 sent on your mission, some chiefs of police from

11 Ulog -- and I can't remember the name of the other

12 town -- were present. Were they still there when you

13 returned?

14 A. I don't remember whether they were there when

15 I returned, but I know they were there when they sent

16 me.

17 Q. Upon your return, did you ask any questions

18 of anyone as to what was going to happen now that you

19 delivered the response?

20 A. Well, I asked what would happen, and they

21 cursed my Ustasha mother, and then I didn't dare to ask

22 any more questions. He said, "How dare you ask us

23 questions?" So I didn't ask anything after that.

24 Q. After that, were you taken back to the

25 Kalinovik school?

Page 3089

1 A. They took me back to the school, and from

2 their conversation among themselves, I understood that

3 they said, "Well, these balijas don't want to collect

4 our dead, so you will have to do it." That's what they

5 told me. I said I would like to do that so that I

6 could get out of the school. And Govedarica, the chief

7 of police was there, and he promised that I could do

8 it. I asked him to put my children on a list they were

9 making. They were making a list of the women who were

10 to collect corpses, and my brother's wife and my sister

11 and their children were on the list. There were nine

12 of us. And I asked him to put all of us on the list so

13 that we could be released earlier, and he said he

14 would.

15 On the following day, when they came to take

16 women to collect corpses, I was not on the list. They

17 took women in the order that they had listed us when we

18 arrived. I don't remember how many women went to

19 collect corpses on that day.

20 Q. Did they, in fact, return and eventually was

21 there an exchange?

22 A. Well, on that day, they found something. The

23 terrain was rough, there were woods, valleys, hills,

24 and they found a few corpses and handed them over, and

25 then they were taken back to the school and they were

Page 3090

1 not released on that day. And on the following

2 morning, they took more women, so that they managed to

3 collect the corpses, and I think this went on for two

4 or three days. In the end, they said that there was

5 still two missing, that not all the corpses had been

6 collected, so that they -- while we were collecting

7 corpses, they let a group go, 10 or 20, and they were

8 all released.

9 Q. Ultimately, you and your son and daughter

10 were released on the 1st of September, 1992; is that

11 correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And you met up with your husband?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Were you ever subsequently in touch with your

16 daughter, 191?

17 A. No.

18 Q. I understand that you moved, and you went to

19 a city where your husband made arrangements to attempt

20 to contact your daughter, 191; is that correct?

21 A. Well, after we -- we arrived later. We

22 couldn't establish contact. There were no

23 communications. We couldn't do anything for a long

24 time.

25 After a long time, we, my husband and

Page 3091

1 daughter, went to some ham radio operators to establish

2 contact.

3 Q. And you learned where your daughter was, that

4 is, 191, through those ham radio contacts?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You were also aware that your husband

7 attempted to make arrangements to exchange two of the

8 girls that had been taken away; is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And do I understand that number 186 was

11 exchanged partly due to your husband's efforts?

12 A. This was -- 186, she was exchanged.

13 Q. Turning now just to my last series of

14 questions, if I may. Did you ever see Zaga on

15 television at the time of his surrender?

16 A. I saw him in the evening when he was brought

17 to The Hague. It was shown on television.

18 Q. At the time that you were watching

19 television, did you recognise him, and if so, how?

20 A. Yes, I recognised him. I had seen him three

21 times, and he stuck in my memory. When he was on

22 television, he was nicely dressed, but I still

23 recognised him.

24 Q. Was there anything particular about him that

25 assisted you in remembering that face?

Page 3092

1 A. Well, I remembered his face, his eyes, and he

2 had slightly curly hair, he had big eyes, and I

3 remembered him. I remembered him well.

4 Q. Did you eventually end up speaking to your

5 daughter some years later?

6 A. Two years later, on the 2nd of August, we

7 met. This was on the 2nd of August, 1994. It was the

8 same date that she had been taken away two years

9 before. We met on the same date.

10 Q. Did your daughter tell you what happened to

11 her, in detail, after she'd been taken away?

12 A. No, she didn't. I didn't want to ask her

13 because I didn't want to hurt her. I knew what had

14 happened, but she wanted to forget it, and I couldn't,

15 I couldn't hurt her any more.

16 Q. Did she ever tell you what happened to 186?

17 A. No. She was later exchanged, and my daughter

18 didn't tell me anything about her.

19 Q. Did you ever speak to 186 about what had

20 happened to your daughter?

21 A. No, I didn't.

22 MR. RYNEVELD: I just wish to check with my

23 colleagues to see if there are any other questions I

24 may have inadvertently omitted to ask. Thank you.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Please go ahead.

Page 3093

1 [Prosecution counsel confer]

2 MR. RYNEVELD:

3 Q. Just for clarification, you said that you

4 spoke to your daughter two years to the date after she

5 had been taken away, that is, the 2nd of August, 1994.

6 Did you speak with her then in person or was that the

7 next contact that you made with her?

8 A. It was in person. We were together. There

9 were some visits that were arranged. There were some

10 commissions that arranged those visits, and we could go

11 over from one side to the other. And we didn't have

12 much time together because we had to go back, each to

13 her own side.

14 Q. Do I understand that you had sort of

15 unrestricted access to your daughter two years after

16 that, after the Dayton Agreement was signed?

17 A. No. I haven't understood your question.

18 Q. Did your daughter come to visit you, wherever

19 you were, in 1996?

20 A. Yes. Yes. She came to visit me in 1996.

21 Q. Thank you, Witness. I believe those are my

22 questions.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Cross-examination?

24 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

25 Your Honour.

Page 3094

1 Cross-examined by Mr. Prodanovic:

2 Q. Good day, Witness.

3 A. Good day.

4 Q. Could you tell us how many statements in all

5 you gave to representatives of the International

6 Tribunal?

7 A. One.

8 Q. I didn't hear.

9 A. One.

10 Q. Thank you. Did you give any statements to

11 other organs? I'm referring to the police, to

12 humanitarian organisations, the International Red

13 Cross.

14 A. I made a statement to the police.

15 Q. When did you make a statement to the police?

16 A. Well, perhaps -- I'm not sure, but perhaps

17 two years ago.

18 Q. That means in 1998?

19 A. I think that's when it was.

20 Q. Did you make a statement to the police about

21 what happened to you in Kalinovik?

22 A. Yes, only about that, because there was

23 nothing else I knew, I could talk about, except what

24 happened there.

25 Q. Did you make a statement to the police about

Page 3095

1 the actions of the accused Kunarac concerning the

2 bombing of cafes in Gacko?

3 A. Everything you have heard me say here, that's

4 what I told the police.

5 Q. Do you have a copy of the statement?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Did you also give interviews to journalists?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Do you remember that a newspaper published a

10 report about your daughter?

11 A. Yes. That was in 1992.

12 Q. Was her picture in the paper?

13 A. Yes, because we gave her picture. We didn't

14 know whether she was alive or not, or where she was, so

15 we thought someone would recognise her from the

16 photograph and let us know.

17 Q. So was it at your own initiative that you

18 gave a statement to a journalist?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you remember what you told the

21 journalists?

22 A. I remember we said that all the girls I have

23 mentioned were taken away, and if someone found out

24 something about her, they should let us know.

25 Q. Very well.

Page 3096

1 A. Her name and her picture were in the paper.

2 Q. In the statement you made to the Tribunal you

3 said that in Gacko, in late April 1992, they started

4 destroying cafes owned by Muslims. Could you tell us

5 the name of just one Muslim cafe owner whose cafe was

6 blown up?

7 A. There were five or six Muslim cafes. Gacko

8 is a small town. You can go from one side to the other

9 in ten minutes. It's not a big place. And I know

10 about every cafe, where it was and whose it was. There

11 was a man named Djakovic, then there was a Smajo

12 Basic. There were five or six cafes that were blown

13 up.

14 Q. You also said in your statement that (redacted)

15 (redacted), that he

16 negotiated with the Serbs, and you thought there would

17 be no problems in Gacko. Tell me, who authorised your

18 husband to negotiate with the Serbs [Realtime

19 transcript read in error "sneshs"]? Did he do it on

20 his own initiative or was he authorised or instructed

21 by an organ?

22 A. No. (redacted) and he

23 talked to the president of the SDS.

24 Q. During these talks, did your husband have any

25 contacts with the SDA headquarters in Sarajevo?

Page 3097

1 A. Yes, he did, but the SDA never said there

2 would be a war, and my husband was very angry. He's

3 still angry, because he never heard from them that

4 there would be a war. Because, had we known there

5 would be a war, we would have gone away; we wouldn't

6 have waited to be arrested. Other people left. But

7 they talked and they agreed that Muslims should not go

8 into the reserves. And they did in other places -- in

9 Bileca, in Trebinje -- but the Muslims in Gacko agreed

10 not to go, and they didn't.

11 Q. Do you know why the Muslims did not want to

12 go into the reserves?

13 A. Well, that's what they agreed, because they

14 didn't want to go to war. They didn't want to fight.

15 Why should they fight? They didn't want to go to

16 Mostar. In Mostar there were Serbs, Muslims and

17 Croats. Who were they supposed to fire on? Or to fire

18 on Dubrovnik.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, counsel.

20 MS. LOPICIC: Your Honour, I'm sorry to

21 interrupt, but on page 40 there says, "Tell me who

22 authorised your husband to negotiate with -- it's

23 supposed to be said "Serbs," not "sneshs." On page

24 number 40, line number 9. It's supposed to be

25 "Serbs." Here it's typed "sneshs."

Page 3098

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, it will be corrected.

2 Thank you. It will be corrected. Thank you.

3 MR. RYNEVELD: And while we are interrupting,

4 I'm wondering whether this evidence might tend to

5 identify and maybe be redacted. Since she's indicated

6 her husband's position, it might just lead to identify

7 her.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. It will be redacted from

9 the public records, yes.

10 I'm wondering where the usher has gone.

11 You can proceed.

12 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. You said that Zaga told you that in April

14 1992 he had mined cafes in Gacko owned by Muslims.

15 Tell us, when did Zaga tell you about this?

16 A. I think it was -- it was not the first

17 evening when he took the girls away. He didn't say

18 anything on that occasion. But the second or third

19 time when he came, I asked him about the girls, and it

20 was then that he asked me whether I remembered the

21 blowing up of the cafes. And I said I did. And he

22 said, "I did that."

23 Q. Was anyone else present when Zaga told you

24 this?

25 A. Well, there were other soldiers there, but I

Page 3099

1 can't remember whether he told me this when he was with

2 Gojko Jankovic.

3 Q. [No interpretation]

4 A. No. No. I was alone.

5 Q. Can you tell us where this happened, in what

6 room?

7 A. I think it was a small room. There was some

8 gym equipment there. I remember that well.

9 Q. Can you tell us, after how many days from the

10 day your daughter was taken away, when did he tell you

11 this?

12 A. It was three or four days later.

13 Q. So it was about the 6th or the 7th?

14 A. Well, I don't know. He came three or four

15 days later. But he came back on two occasions. I saw

16 him three times in all.

17 Q. Could you explain, the first time you saw

18 Zaga, when he came back after the 2nd of August, could

19 you describe when this was and who he came with and

20 what time of day it was?

21 A. On one occasion when he came, there were some

22 people who came with him. There was Gojko Jankovic.

23 And the second time he came with Jasna Jadranka. It

24 was from him I heard that she was called Jaca, because

25 they kissed on the corridor. And she was very

Page 3100

1 aggressive. I asked her something, and she licked her

2 knife and started towards me. And he said, "Jaca, come

3 back."

4 Q. Can you explain whether he was in uniform?

5 A. Yes. He was wearing a camouflage uniform.

6 Q. Did he have any markings?

7 A. He had ribbons on his shoulders, and when he

8 took the girls away, he had a band around his head.

9 Q. When he told you that he had blown up cafes

10 in Gacko, did you have the impression that he was

11 confessing to you, or did he have some other purpose in

12 mind?

13 A. I think it was not a confession. I think he

14 was proud of it. But he simply said it. He asked me

15 if I remembered it. Because on that occasion people

16 had fled toward Borce with their families and spent a

17 few days there, and then they had to work, so they came

18 back.

19 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

20 it's 11.00. Is this the right time for a break?

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We shall take our break.

22 I see Mr. Ryneveld on his feet.

23 MR. RYNEVELD: Just one matter that I

24 noticed, and I didn't want to interrupt, but I think

25 it's obvious that at line 16:10, 5504, the transcript

Page 3101

1 indicated that there was no interpretation of a

2 question that was put. I wonder whether counsel might

3 want to look at that and deal with that issue when we

4 return.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Counsel will check the

6 transcript, and if necessary, we'll repeat the question

7 so that it can be interpreted.

8 We shall take our break now and resume the

9 proceedings at 11.30 hours.

10 --- Break taken at 11.00 a.m.

11 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We're continuing with

13 cross-examination.

14 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. When Zaga told you about the destruction of

16 the cafes, did you believe that story?

17 A. Why would he say it was that way if it

18 wasn't? Could you say that you did something that you

19 didn't do?

20 Q. In your opinion, what was his motive? Why

21 did he tell you that?

22 A. Perhaps he was proud of it.

23 Q. Tell me, are you sure that on the 2nd of

24 August, 1992, in the evening hours, Zaga was present

25 when your girl was taken -- your daughter was taken

Page 3102

1 away with seven other girls?

2 A. On the 2nd of August, yes, I was sure.

3 Q. You said that eight girls were taken away.

4 Can you tell us whether they first walked into your

5 room or to another room? Can you tell us in which

6 order the girls were selected?

7 A. I don't know. I was in that room, and that

8 was the room where I was and where only my daughter was

9 taken out of. I don't know whether it was the first or

10 the last.

11 Q. So you claim that from the room that you were

12 in, only your daughter was taken away?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. When she was taken away, did you come out

15 after her?

16 A. No, because he hit me and he put a gun at my

17 forehead and he kicked me. I was beside myself. I

18 just saw her go towards the door.

19 Q. What kind of light was in the room? Could

20 you see well?

21 A. Well, it was 7.30 in the evening. It's

22 summertime. You can see well.

23 Q. Does that mean you could discern faces?

24 A. Naturally, yes.

25 Q. Do you remember when was the first time that

Page 3103

1 Zaga came after the 2nd of August?

2 A. Well, he came two or three days later. I

3 don't know the exact day, but he did come two more

4 times.

5 Q. At what time of the day was this?

6 A. Well, it was daylight. It wasn't evening, it

7 wasn't night-time. I don't know.

8 Q. Was it in the morning or in the afternoon?

9 A. Well, I couldn't say now. I just know that

10 it was during daytime.

11 Q. Did you talk about something when he came for

12 the first time? Did you talk about your daughter?

13 A. Well, yes. I recognised him when he came.

14 The first time I recognised him. I walked up to him,

15 and I asked what happened to my daughter and where the

16 others were, and he said that they were together and

17 that they were with him.

18 Q. You remember this first time when he came

19 whether he gave you a telephone number?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did you publish that telephone number in the

22 newspapers, the one that he gave you?

23 A. I think I did.

24 Q. Is this number 363367 [sic]?

25 A. Well, I can't remember now. It was eight

Page 3104

1 years ago. It was a telephone number, but I can't

2 remember which one.

3 Q. Was this telephone number published in the

4 newspapers?

5 A. Well, I think it was. I can't remember, but

6 I think it is.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: I see counsel for Zoran Vukovic

8 on her feet.

9 MS. LOPICIC: Sorry for interrupting, Your

10 Honour. On the transcript it's mistyped, the number of

11 the telephone. Mr. Prodanovic said 64647, and here it

12 is "363367."

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Prodanovic, can you please

14 quote the number yourself, the number you put to the

15 witness?

16 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

17 the number is 64647.

18 A. Yes. That is my daughter's picture. As for

19 the number, I know that it was a telephone number, but

20 I can't remember which one.

21 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Did you use that number? Was that number

23 used?

24 A. We could not use that number because the

25 telephone lines were not working at that time. We

Page 3105

1 tried somehow, via Croatia, via Belgrade, but we never

2 managed to get through.

3 Q. Did he tell you whose number this was?

4 A. As far as I can remember, he said it was his,

5 and it was the number of Tivat, I think he told me.

6 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

7 the Defence has two documents that it wishes to

8 tender. The first one is a copy of a page from the

9 telephone directory of Tivat, and this number is in the

10 top right-hand corner, and that is the telephone number

11 of Dragoljub Kunarac's father in Tivat, because he has

12 a house in Tivat.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: What is the number?

14 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] It is

15 precisely the number that we discussed 64647 [Realtime

16 transcript read in error: 646467]. So --

17 JUDGE MUMBA: And the date?

18 JUDGE HUNT: What about the date of the

19 telephone book?

20 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] The second

21 document, Your Honour, is a certificate confirming

22 that -- it has a stamp too -- that that is the number

23 that is registered in the name of Dragoljub Kunarac's

24 father, and that this has been his number since the

25 13th of June, 1989. So it is that number. We wanted

Page 3106

1 you to see this, and we would like this to be admitted

2 into evidence.

3 So the first document are copies of a page of

4 the Tivat telephone directory, and the top is the

5 number of the accused father's, and there's his name as

6 well.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: While we are sorting out the

8 paperwork, counsel for Zoran Vukovic?

9 MS. LOPICIC: Page 50, line 6 again is

10 mistyped. The telephone number"6464" and then there is

11 additional number"6". It's not supposed to be. It's

12 supposed to be 64647, the telephone number.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. The transcript will

14 be corrected.

15 Can we have the number for identification

16 purposes, please?

17 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This document

18 will be marked D56, Defence Exhibit D56.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Any objection from the

20 Prosecution?

21 MR. RYNEVELD: None whatever. Thank you,

22 Your Honour.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. So it's admitted.

24 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Once again,

25 I would like to ask the usher to help us with the

Page 3107

1 second document. That is a certificate stating the

2 father of the accused Kunarac has had this number since

3 the 13th of June, 1989. It is a certificate with a

4 seal, with a stamp on it, and we are tendering it.

5 MR. RYNEVELD: Again, no objection.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. The document will

7 be admitted.

8 Can we have a formal number, please?

9 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This document

10 will be marked D57, Defence Exhibit D57.

11 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] I just wish

12 to clarify one point, that this is the very same number

13 that the accused's father still has, until this present

14 day.

15 Q. You said in your statement: "Around 7.30,"

16 so I'm talking about the 2nd of August, "in the

17 evening, Zaga entered the room, accompanied by Gaga.

18 He was escorted by a policeman at that point in time,

19 and I did not know their names. I found out their

20 names a bit later from the policeman who came with

21 them. This policeman was one of the two guards who

22 tried to help us."

23 Tell me, please: Can you give us the name

24 and surname of the policeman who said to you that the

25 person who took your daughter and the others away,

Page 3108

1 Zaga?

2 A. Nobody asked me about the name and surname.

3 Q. What was that?

4 A. Nobody asked the policeman for the name and

5 surname.

6 Q. But you said that you heard the name and

7 nickname of Zaga from the policeman.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can you tell us the name and surname of this

10 policeman who was humane and who helped you?

11 A. Well, I said just now that we did not ask the

12 policeman for his name.

13 Q. Can you describe this policeman to us, then?

14 A. I don't know. The man was in a police

15 uniform. He had a blue shirt.

16 Q. Was he there all the time, throughout your

17 stay there?

18 A. No. They took turns.

19 Q. Yes, I understand that. They worked in

20 shifts. But was he in these shifts throughout your

21 stay in Kalinovik?

22 A. I can't remember. We did not have access.

23 We could not go out and go to their door. We could

24 only go from this room to the toilet. Perhaps he was

25 there, but I did not notice him.

Page 3109

1 Q. When you say, "We could not" -- when you say,

2 "We could," [as interpreted], does that mean that you

3 could not go out or that no one could go out?

4 A. No one. They did not allow us contact with

5 the women from Kalinovik. They were upstairs, we were

6 downstairs. They did not allow us any contact with

7 them.

8 Q. Do you know where the village of Jelasica is?

9 A. Well, I think it's there, somewhere around

10 the school, because there were some women from that

11 village there.

12 Q. Do you know how far away this village is from

13 Kalinovik?

14 A. I don't know. They brought us there, and

15 then when they took us away, well, we didn't walk

16 around so that we could know.

17 Q. Do you know whether anybody from the school

18 went to the village of Jelasica out of the witnesses

19 who were at the school?

20 A. Well, I don't know. From this room that I

21 was in, I don't think so, no. Why would they go?

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel for Zoran Vukovic is on

23 her feet. Yes, please.

24 MS. LOPICIC: Your Honour, I would like to

25 state that at page number 53, line number 14, it says,

Page 3110

1 "We could," but it is supposed to be said, "We could

2 not." It's supposed to be negative, but not positive.

3 "We could." It's in the transcript. It's supposed to

4 be, in the transcript, "We could not." Line 13 and

5 14. It's mistyped again.

6 JUDGE HUNT: You realise, don't you, that the

7 transcript is checked against the sound tape before

8 it's distributed, and the LiveNote, bearing in mind the

9 speed with which the proceedings go, is not always

10 regarded as being absolutely accurate. Certainly

11 things like numbers, it's very helpful for what you're

12 doing, but you may rest assured that the transcript is

13 checked before it's distributed, against the sound

14 tape.

15 MS. LOPICIC: Yes, I understand. It's just I

16 thought because it's "could not" instead of "We could."

17 JUDGE HUNT: It could be important.

18 MS. LOPICIC: It could be important. That's

19 the reason I stand up and I said. Thank you, Your

20 Honour.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

22 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Today you mentioned in your statement that

24 you knew that in the school where you were detained,

25 there were certain rapes that were carried out on the

Page 3111

1 premises. Could you tell us why you did not speak

2 about these details in the statement that you gave to

3 the investigators?

4 A. I have just started remembering some of the

5 details. When I stop and think, I remember some of

6 these things. There are so many other things I could

7 remember and say but that I have not made in this

8 statement. Now that I think about this, all of it

9 comes back into my mind.

10 Q. Are you trying to say that your memory is

11 better now than it was five years ago?

12 A. Well, I remember some things now that I had

13 omitted.

14 Q. Did you talk to anyone about these events?

15 So is that the reason why your memory is better now?

16 Did somebody remind you?

17 A. No. No. I do it on my own, in the evening.

18 Before I fall asleep, I remember.

19 Q. Can you write down the names of these women

20 who were raped? I would like to ask the usher to bring

21 you a piece of paper.

22 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like

23 this witness to write down the names and surnames of

24 the women who were raped.

25 A. I would not write this, because there were

Page 3112

1 some women who had been raped and who did not even tell

2 their husbands about it, or their very nearest and

3 dearest, because they were ashamed of this.

4 One night a man came and he took away six

5 girls and one little girl. He took them somewhere.

6 This was a farm near Foca. And he returned them after

7 midnight. They had kept silent about this. They never

8 talked to anyone about this. And I don't want to speak

9 about it then. Everyone has his own right. I don't

10 want to go into this. I don't wish to do this.

11 Q. You said that you did not have any contact

12 with witnesses. How come you know that they don't want

13 to have this disclosed?

14 A. They never spoke about this. No one ever

15 talked about it. For some time during the first few

16 years, I was in Mostar. There were some women there,

17 they never uttered a word about this. Neither did

18 their families, as if nothing had happened. They

19 didn't talk about it. For women, this is really a

20 shame.

21 Q. Where were these women from?

22 A. These women were from Gacko.

23 Q. Can you tell us how old they were?

24 A. Well, my sister-in-law, she was 55 years old,

25 because she had grandchildren and she had two

Page 3113

1 daughters-in-law. And the others were younger.

2 Q. In your estimate, how many women were raped

3 in the school in Kalinovik, that you know about?

4 A. Well, I know quite a few, but mostly they

5 kept quiet about it because of the women who were

6 raped. They had their children there, their mothers,

7 their sisters, and they just kept quiet.

8 Q. Did you see the rapes?

9 A. No, I didn't.

10 Q. After these rapes, did they talk about who

11 the men were who raped them?

12 A. No, they didn't, because they didn't know who

13 the men were.

14 Q. Did they tell you that they had been raped?

15 A. Some of them did and some of them didn't.

16 Q. Was there anybody else besides you who was in

17 that school and who knew that the girls were taken out

18 to be raped and that they had been raped?

19 A. Well, whoever was there knows about it.

20 Q. And finally, can you tell us for whom you

21 were exchanged?

22 A. We were exchanged when everybody was, when

23 the exchanges were carried out for corpses. And

24 Govedarica promised us -- he was the chief of

25 police -- that on that day the girls would come to be

Page 3114

1 exchanged.

2 Q. Can you tell us who, on the Muslim side, took

3 part in the negotiations about the exchange of

4 Witnesses 186 and 181?

5 A. Could you repeat the question, please? I

6 didn't understand you.

7 Q. Can you tell us who, on the Muslim side, was

8 the mediator in the exchange of 186 and your daughter,

9 who did not want to be exchanged?

10 A. My husband came, and he went to see Mr. Haris

11 Silajdzic, and he asked him to ask Krajisnik for this

12 exchange.

13 Q. Was your husband able to see Haris Silajdzic

14 because he was in the SDA and had a position there?

15 A. No. I think he did it because of the girls.

16 Q. But in Foca there were other girls. So why

17 did he ask only for these two?

18 A. Well, because they had been kept there

19 longer. There was a 13-year-old girl who was a

20 daughter of my sister-in-law and had gone to school

21 with my daughter. She was exchanged in March in 1993,

22 and another girl was exchanged before that. So only

23 these two girls from Gacko, my daughter and number 186,

24 had been left.

25 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] This was my

Page 3115

1 last question. If you only give me a minute to consult

2 with my colleague.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Please go ahead.

4 [Defence counsel confer]

5 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. And my last question is: When you gave your

7 statement to the police, did you mention the rapes in

8 Kalinovik?

9 A. Yes. I said everything that I have said now

10 in this statement.

11 Q. Did you give this statement in the police

12 station, the CSB in Sarajevo?

13 A. I don't know. That was a police station. I

14 don't know who it belonged to.

15 Q. Did you sign that statement?

16 A. Yes.

17 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no

18 further questions, Your Honours.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar, any questions?

20 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I

21 have no questions for this witness.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel for Zoran Vukovic,

23 please.

24 MS. LOPICIC: Your Honour, I do not have any

25 questions for this witness. Thank you.

Page 3116

1 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Prodanovic, I'm just a

2 little concerned with your last couple of questions.

3 Are you going to assert at some stage that there is a

4 statement which is contradictory to the evidence which

5 the witness has given here?

6 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your

7 Honour.

8 JUDGE HUNT: That's all right, but,

9 otherwise, you would have had an obligation to put it

10 to the witness for her to be able to deal with it. Do

11 you understand?

12 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Any re-examination?

15 MR. RYNEVELD: The only thing that I wanted

16 to point out is that the Prosecution is not aware of

17 the existence of this statement to the police. We do

18 not have it. We have not disclosed it. We don't -- we

19 know nothing about it.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. Thank you. And no

21 re-examination?

22 MR. RYNEVELD: Sorry. No, I do not. Thank

23 you, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay.

25 Thank you very much, Witness, for giving

Page 3117

1 evidence to the Tribunal. Thank you. You are

2 released.

3 [The witness withdrew]

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have the next

5 witness, please?

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, there have

7 to be some technical arrangements be made, because this

8 next witness testifies in closed session. So this

9 voice alteration has to be put on. Oh, there is no --

10 okay. Then I can go on.

11 [Closed session]

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 3118

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13 pages 3118-3197 redacted closed session

14

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18

19

20

21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

22 at 4.02 p.m., to be reconvened on

23 Tuesday the 16th day of May, 2000,

24 at 9.30 a.m.

25