1 Wednesday, 17
2 [Closed session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.
13 pages 3341-3459 redacted – closed session
22 --- Break taken at 3.35 p.m.
23 --- On resuming at 3.40 p.m.
24 [The witness entered court]
25 [Open session]
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Good afternoon, Witness,
2 and please make the solemn declaration.
3 WITNESS: WITNESS 205
4 [Witness answered through interpreter]
5 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
6 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Please sit down.
9 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Kuo.
11 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour. With the
12 assistance of this usher, I'd like to have this witness
13 shown what's been marked for identification as
14 Exhibit number 219, and the Prosecution wishes to have
15 this exhibit entered into evidence.
16 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This is
17 Exhibit 219, Prosecution Exhibit 219, and it's a
18 confidential exhibit.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Please proceed.
20 Examined by Ms. Kuo:
21 Q. Good afternoon, Witness. Could you look at
22 the sheet of paper in front of you and tell us if you
23 see your name.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And next to your name is FWS-205. Do you
1 understand that that is how you will be referred to
2 during this trial?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Underneath your name do you see your birth
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Could you tell us how old you are today?
8 A. Going on 32.
9 Q. At the time when the war started in 1992, how
10 old were you?
11 A. Almost 22.
12 Q. When the war started, where did you live?
13 A. The village of Jelasca in the municipality of
15 Q. Who did you live with?
16 A. My father, mother, and brother.
17 Q. Did you work at that time?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Where did you work?
20 A. In Kalinovik, Viteks Visoko.
21 Q. What kind of business is that?
22 A. Textile.
23 Q. What ethnicity are you?
24 A. Muslim.
25 Q. Do you recall what date the war in Foca
2 A. April, the 3rd of April, I think.
3 Q. You're not sure about the exact date?
4 A. No. No.
5 Q. Were you able to continue working after the
6 war started?
7 A. Yes.
8 MS. KUO: May I ask the assistance of the
9 usher to move the microphone closer to the witness,
10 because it seems quite far away, and she's having some
12 Q. How long were you able to continue working?
13 A. Until May.
14 Q. What happened in May?
15 A. There was no more electricity. It was cut
17 Q. Do you know what was happening to the Muslim
18 men in your town?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What? What happened to the Muslim men?
21 A. They were detained in the school.
22 Q. Where? What school were they detained?
23 A. In Kalinovik, the elementary school called
24 Miladin Radovic.
25 Q. Was your father also detained?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Do you recall what date that was?
3 A. On the 25th of June.
4 Q. Was he told why he was being detained?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. What was he told?
7 A. That this was for their own safety; that's
8 what they told them.
9 Q. Do you know how many Muslim men were detained
10 with your father?
11 A. About 72.
12 Q. Were you able to visit your father when he
13 was detained at the elementary school?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. How many times were you able to visit him?
16 A. Every day. We could go every day.
17 Q. Was your father able to move around freely in
18 the school?
19 A. No.
20 Q. How were you able to meet him, or see him?
21 A. When we would come, they would go out into
22 the corridor, and the guards would be present as well.
23 Q. And they were the Muslim men who were being
24 detained; is that right?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Did your father tell you whether he was being
2 mistreated at the school?
3 A. No, he was not mistreated at the school.
4 Q. How many days were they -- were the Muslim
5 men detained at the school; do you know?
6 A. I don't know exactly.
7 Q. Do you know where they were taken after that?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Where were they taken?
10 A. They were taken to the gunpowder warehouse.
11 Q. Were you able to visit your father there?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Were you able to see him at all at the
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. How were you able to see him?
17 A. When we went to bring them extra clothes and
19 Q. Were you able to talk to him when you brought
20 them food?
21 A. No.
22 Q. How did your father look when you saw him at
23 the warehouse?
24 A. He was in pretty bad shape. He was skinny.
25 That was the only thing I could see.
1 Q. Was he a sick man?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. What kind of sickness did he have?
4 A. He had a heart condition.
5 Q. Do you remember when the last time was when
6 you saw your father?
7 A. No.
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, can you just explain a
9 little bit? Can you ask the witness: Was this
10 sickness, the heart condition, was it there before the
11 war, or did it arise after the tension?
12 MS. KUO:
13 Q. Witness, you heard the Judge's question.
14 Could you answer that?
15 A. Yes, before the war also he had problems with
16 his heart.
17 Q. And after seeing your father at the
18 warehouse, did you ever see him again?
19 A. No.
20 Q. When the men were moved from the Kalinovik
21 elementary school to the gunpowder warehouse, do you
22 know who was brought into the elementary school
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Who was brought there?
1 A. The women from Gacko.
2 Q. How do you know that?
3 A. Because they came to the villages and because
4 it was said that they, the men, had to go to the
5 gunpowder warehouse because the women from Gacko were
6 supposed to come to the school.
7 Q. Did you ever see the women from Gacko while
8 they were detained at the school?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did they come into your village?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. What would they do when they came into your
14 A. They were looking for food.
15 Q. Were people able to provide any food to them?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you know whether, after some time, the
18 women from Gacko who were detained at the Kalinovik
19 school were allowed to continue going out to look for
21 A. I don't know.
22 Q. After the Muslim men in Kalinovik were
23 detained, what did the Muslim women do?
24 A. They went to the gunpowder warehouse, they
25 took food and clothing, and they went back home. They
1 were home.
2 Q. Were you scared, and did you try to seek
4 A. Yes, we were scared.
5 Q. What did you try -- what did you do to try to
6 protect yourselves?
7 A. We didn't do anything.
8 Q. Did you gather together at night?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Where did you gather?
11 A. We gathered in one house, all of us together.
12 Q. So you would all sleep together in one house;
13 is that right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Were the women, the Muslim women of
16 Kalinovik, eventually detained at the Kalinovik
17 elementary school?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Do you remember when that was?
20 A. On the 1st of August, 1992.
21 Q. And can you describe for us how you were
22 taken to the Kalinovik elementary school?
23 A. On the 1st of August, in the evening, just
24 before it was dark, armed soldiers came. Then they
25 simply told us that we had to go with them. Then we
1 all set out towards the gunpowder warehouse. A car
2 came from there and transferred us to the school in
4 Q. When you arrived at the school, were the
5 women from Gacko still there?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Where in the school were you placed?
8 A. Upstairs, in a classroom.
9 Q. Was your mother with you as well?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Could you say approximately how many women
12 were taken together with you from Kalinovik?
13 A. I can't.
14 Q. Were you told why you were taken to the
16 A. No.
17 Q. How long did you stay at the school?
18 A. I stayed until the 2nd of August, in the
20 Q. And what happened on the evening of August
22 A. Three armed men came into the classroom and
23 they took three persons out of there: myself and two
24 other persons.
25 Q. Now, looking at the sheet before you, do you
1 see the names of the two other persons taken out with
2 you? And if you do, tell us the name, or the -- I'm
3 sorry -- the number or the initials next to those
4 people's names.
5 A. Yes, I see them. 101 and JB.
6 Q. How old was JB at that time; do you know?
7 A. I don't know.
8 Q. And was there anything about 101's physical
9 appearance that was significant?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What was that?
12 A. She was pregnant.
13 Q. The three armed men who came in, what were
14 they wearing?
15 A. They had camouflage uniforms and white
17 Q. Could you tell what the insignia -- was there
18 anything written that you described as insignia?
19 A. No. No. Nothing was written on them.
20 Q. Did you learn the name or nickname of any of
21 those three armed men?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. What was that?
24 A. Nickname, Zaga.
25 Q. How did you learn that nickname?
1 A. Because that is how they addressed each
3 Q. You mentioned that there were three of you
4 taken. Were the three of you taken from one classroom?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Were there other women or girls taken from
7 another room?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. How many? Do you know?
10 A. Four.
11 Q. Do you know where those four were from?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Where?
14 A. From Gacko.
15 Q. And where were the seven of you taken?
16 A. First towards the gasoline station and then
17 to Foca.
18 MS. KUO: Your Honours, I see that it's
19 4.00. This is a good time to break.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Before we break off, I
21 just want to inform the parties that we are not able to
22 get the transcripts, the hard copies, because there's a
23 problem, which is being sorted out, but you can get
24 your copies from the LiveNote, which, as you know, is
25 not edited. We will rise until tomorrow morning at
1 0930 hours.
2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
3 at 4 p.m., to be reconvened on
4 Thursday, the 18th day of April, 2000,
5 at 9.30 a.m.