Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3607

1 Monday, 22 May 2000

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning. May the

7 registrar please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Case

9 IT-96-23-T and IT-96-23/1-T, the Prosecutor against

10 Dragoljub Kunarac, Radomir Kovac, and Zoran Vukovic.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning, Witness. You are

12 still under solemn declaration, and the proceedings

13 continue.

14 Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.

15 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Before we start today, I thought I would indicate to

17 the Court that, with the Court's permission, I have

18 requested that Daryl Mundis join the prosecution team

19 today, and it's the proposal that Mr. Mundis will also

20 take some of the witnesses in the remainder of the

21 case. So I'd like to introduce him to the Court.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Thank you very much.

23 You're welcome, Mr. Mundis, to this trial.

24 Cross-examination, I think. Yes. The

25 examination-in-chief was completed. Cross-examination

Page 3608

1 of the witness, please.

2 WITNESS: WITNESS 175 [Resumed]

3 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

4 Q. Before I start the cross-examination, I would

5 like to greet the witness. Good morning to you.

6 A. Good morning.

7 Q. Before I start putting questions to you, I

8 would like to say for the sake of the record that

9 perhaps there's been a mistake in your date of birth.

10 You have the Prosecutor's Exhibit in front of you,

11 X22.

12 A. It's not a mistake. It's correct.

13 Q. However, on the first page of the statement

14 that you gave to the investigators of the Prosecutor --

15 the English version is X108 -- it says that you were

16 born in 1975.

17 A. Yes, but it also says 1975 here.

18 Q. That's right, but on the first page of your

19 statement it says 1978. Let us just clarify this. So

20 is it 1975, so is it a mistake on the first page in

21 your date of birth, where it says 1978?

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Witness, can you answer?

23 What is the correct year?

24 A. 1975.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

Page 3609

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. You said that you were born in Miljevina,

3 that you live there.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Your father was killed?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. How did that happen?

8 A. He was killed in Miljevina. I do not know

9 how this exactly happened.

10 Q. Thank you. Thank you. You lived with your

11 mother?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did your mother work?

14 A. No.

15 Q. How were you supported?

16 A. By my father's pension.

17 Q. In response to my learned friend's question,

18 you said that the war began on the 8th of April, 1992,

19 in Miljevina.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. How come you know?

22 A. I think that I said earlier on that on the

23 6th of April, when problems started in Sarajevo, that

24 everything was still all right. On the 8th, the

25 barricades started.

Page 3610

1 Q. Barricades? Where?

2 A. Barricades were placed in the direction of

3 Sarajevo, to Halji [phoen], and at the exit from

4 Rudnik.

5 Q. Did you see that or did you hear of it?

6 A. I heard about it.

7 Q. Do you know that after these barricades were

8 placed, there was a conflict between the Serbs and

9 Muslims?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You said that you went to the village of

12 Izbisno?

13 A. That's right.

14 Q. What was the population of that village?

15 A. Muslim population.

16 Q. Did you have any problems while you were in

17 that village?

18 A. Yes. Not I personally, but there was

19 shooting, shelling, above the village.

20 Q. Did you hear about that or did you see it?

21 A. I heard it and I saw it.

22 Q. When you went to Izbisno, did other families

23 leave Miljevina as well?

24 A. I'm not sure, but I think so.

25 Q. In response to my learned friend's question,

Page 3611

1 you said that the barricades were placed by the Serbs

2 of Izbisno?

3 A. Yes, towards Izbisno.

4 Q. Did you see the Serbs set them up or did you

5 hear about it?

6 A. I heard about it. I already told you that.

7 Q. Did you hear of the number of barricades?

8 A. I don't think that I can give you an accurate

9 answer. I don't know.

10 Q. Where did you stay in Izbisno?

11 A. With friends.

12 Q. From the moment when you arrived in Izbisno,

13 after how much time did the Serbs tell you and who from

14 the ranks of the Serbs told you that you could return

15 to Miljevina?

16 A. I don't know exactly after how much time.

17 Approximately it was the end of April, beginning of

18 May. It was Pero Elez and I don't know who else.

19 Q. Who did they say that to?

20 A. They said it to the people who were

21 inhabitants of Izbisno, that they should return all the

22 people who were staying with them.

23 Q. Do you know whether anyone else returned to

24 Miljevina from Izbisno at the time, except for you?

25 A. No.

Page 3612

1 Q. You said when you came to Miljevina that you

2 noticed that the Serbs had uniforms?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you see Muslims in uniform as well?

5 A. No. There weren't any Muslims in Miljevina.

6 There were not any Muslim men in Miljevina.

7 Q. When you returned, there weren't any men?

8 A. No.

9 Q. When did you become a member of MOS, before

10 you went to Izbisno or afterwards?

11 A. Before. Before the war, I mean.

12 Q. This youth organisation of yours, how many

13 members did it have and did you have meetings?

14 A. I don't know exactly how many. It's not that

15 we had any meetings or, rather, I didn't go to any

16 meetings. I don't know.

17 Q. When you said that there weren't any men in

18 Miljevina, did that pertain to all men or were there

19 some elderly men who were there in Miljevina?

20 A. I think that there weren't any men at all.

21 Q. Where did you see armed Serbs? Where would

22 you encounter them?

23 A. In the street, in the street. When I

24 returned, I met quite a few of them in the street.

25 Q. In your statement, when you speak of the

Page 3613

1 "front", what are you actually referring to?

2 A. Could you --

3 Q. You said that Serb soldiers lost their lives?

4 A. Yes. Well, I'm referring to fighting.

5 Q. Fighting between who?

6 A. Probably between the Serbs and Muslims, and

7 I'm referring to mines, landmines, because there

8 were ...

9 Q. There were mines that were placed; is that

10 what you're trying to say?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Well, where were these mines placed?

13 A. I cannot give an accurate answer to this

14 question. I really don't know. But I do know of a

15 case when three -- I think three young Serbs were

16 killed I know in the direction of Kalinovik. They were

17 killed by land mines.

18 Q. During your stay in Miljevina, were there any

19 Serb refugees as well?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you know where these Serb refugees were

22 staying?

23 A. In Muslim apartments, in the apartments of

24 Muslims who were not there.

25 Q. Do you know where they had come from and why?

Page 3614

1 A. I don't know, I don't know.

2 Q. You said that upon returning from Izbisno,

3 you lived in your apartment?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. When did you go to your Serb friends' house?

6 A. The beginning of June, I think it was, the

7 end of May, something like that.

8 Q. How long did you stay in that house?

9 A. I can't remember exactly. I think I could

10 give only an approximation; 10 or 15 days.

11 Q. Did you have any problems while you stayed at

12 that house?

13 A. No.

14 Q. You said that during your stay in Miljevina,

15 you did not have any food. You were referring to the

16 Muslims, and that Serbs were receiving food?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. How do you know that?

19 A. People talked about it. Serbs talked about

20 it. They said that they received food. My mother even

21 got food for us from a Serb friend.

22 Q. You said that your house had been searched?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you still assert that nothing was taken

25 away from your house on that occasion?

Page 3615

1 A. Yes, that's right, not then.

2 Q. While this was happening to you and to your

3 apartment, actually, were you physically abused?

4 A. No.

5 Q. You said that your mother sought Pero's help?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Why?

8 A. I think that I said last time that Pero's

9 mother had a good relationship with my father's

10 grandfather during the Second World War and that he

11 helped her.

12 Q. You said that your mother heard that girls

13 were being taken away?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did she tell you who she had heard that from?

16 A. I can't remember exactly.

17 Q. Do you know whether any girls were taken away

18 at that time?

19 A. Yes. I heard about it.

20 Q. From whom did you hear it?

21 A. Well, people who came to see us talked about

22 it.

23 Q. Did you know this girl that they talked

24 about?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3616

1 Q. Do you know where that girl was taken?

2 A. To the motel in Miljevina.

3 Q. Do you know who took her away?

4 A. No. I don't know anything else about that.

5 Q. Did you see that girl later?

6 A. No, never.

7 Q. So you just heard someone say that she had

8 been taken away?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You said that Pero Elez took you to the

11 Hrbinic house.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you know that family?

14 A. Only the girl who was there, the girl RK.

15 Q. So she was also living there?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You said that soldiers came to that house.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Which soldiers?

20 A. Serbian soldiers.

21 Q. Were those soldiers friends of the Hrbinic

22 family?

23 A. Some were and some were not.

24 Q. During your stay in the Hrbinic house, did

25 you know that Hrbinic, who was the owner of the house,

Page 3617

1 was in the Serb army?

2 A. I'm not sure.

3 Q. Did RK live in the Hrbinic house all the

4 time?

5 A. Yes.

6 THE COURT: I'm sorry, Counsel. We are not

7 getting the evidence recorded on the transcript. It

8 stopped a long time ago.

9 [Technical problem]

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 THE COURT: Yes. We can proceed, because

12 it's being taken down. It's just the projection is not

13 coming in yet. Proceed.

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Do you know why RK was living there in that

16 house?

17 A. Well, they were her relatives. Hrbinic was

18 her mother's brother.

19 Q. During your stay in that house, did you have

20 any problems?

21 A. No.

22 Q. At that time did you become acquainted with

23 the soldiers who came to the house, to the Hrbinic

24 house?

25 A. Yes. I knew some of them from before.

Page 3618

1 Q. Did you have any problems with them? Did any

2 of them insult you or maltreat you?

3 A. No.

4 Q. You said that RK -- that Zdravko Ivanovic

5 lived in RK's house.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Why did he live in that house? Do you know?

8 A. I don't know why, but he stayed there very

9 briefly.

10 Q. Do you know when he left?

11 A. No, I don't know exactly. I can't say.

12 Q. Did you and RK, while Zdravko Ivanovic was in

13 the house of RK, go to that house?

14 A. No.

15 Q. And did RK go there?

16 A. I think she went to the front of the house,

17 but I don't know whether she actually went inside.

18 Q. Did she tell you, when Zdravko Ivanovic left

19 the house, that everything was all right inside the

20 house?

21 A. No, she didn't say anything to me.

22 Q. Did she tell you that something was missing

23 from the house?

24 A. Only later did she say that the cellar had

25 been broken into.

Page 3619

1 Q. Was that while Zdravko Ivanovic was in the

2 house or after that?

3 A. No, it was after that.

4 Q. How long did you stay in the Hrbinic house?

5 A. Until the beginning of August.

6 Q. In the statement that you made to the

7 investigators, you said it was the 6th or the 7th of

8 August. Can we agree about the date?

9 A. I don't know exactly, because I don't

10 remember the exact date.

11 Q. And the date, 6th or 7th, which you mentioned

12 to the investigators, is that a date you would accept?

13 Was that the beginning of August?

14 A. I can't say now exactly, because now I don't

15 remember.

16 Q. Can we agree that your memory was fresher

17 when you were making this statement?

18 A. Well, I'm sure it was.

19 Q. You said that you were taken from the Hrbinic

20 house. Can you describe how this happened?

21 A. I was in front of the Hrbinic house, and the

22 girl RK went to the front of the Karaman House, and a

23 few minutes later she called me over. And I was taken

24 from the place in front of Karaman's House.

25 Q. When RK went to the front of her house, do

Page 3620

1 you know when she left and why?

2 A. No, I don't know.

3 Q. How much time elapsed from the time she went

4 to the house to the moment when she called you over?

5 A. I'm not sure, but I think it was a few

6 minutes. I don't know.

7 Q. Did she tell you why she was calling you

8 over?

9 A. No.

10 Q. And when you arrived there, did she tell you

11 then?

12 A. No, she didn't tell me anything.

13 Q. When you arrived in front of the house, when

14 she had called you over, who of the men did you find

15 there?

16 A. Radovan Stankovic, also known as Misko, Pedo,

17 and Zaga.

18 Q. Did you talk to them?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Did they talk to RK?

21 A. Not then. Maybe before I arrived. I don't

22 know.

23 Q. Did they ask you anything?

24 A. No.

25 Q. At the time, did you know that this was Zaga?

Page 3621

1 A. No, not then.

2 Q. That person that you say was Zaga, what did

3 he look like then?

4 A. Then, he was tall, thin. He had brown, curly

5 hair, a little longer, big eyes, and a hoarse voice.

6 Q. To my question, when I asked you whether you

7 talked to them, you said "no"?

8 A. No, I didn't talk to them, but they talked

9 among themselves.

10 Q. Did you hear what they were talking about?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Who was talking to who?

13 A. Misko, Radovan Stankovic, and Zaga were

14 talking amongst themselves, but I can't remember now

15 exactly what happened.

16 Q. At the time, were they sitting in front of

17 the house?

18 A. No, they were standing.

19 Q. Did you see when they had arrived?

20 A. No.

21 Q. You said that you saw three or four girls

22 then?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Where were they when you arrived?

25 A. They were just going into the Karaman House.

Page 3622

1 Q. Did you see who had brought them there?

2 A. No.

3 Q. You knew Pero Elez?

4 A. Yes, before the war.

5 Q. Did you see him there?

6 A. No, unless he was inside the house. But he

7 wasn't in front of the house.

8 Q. Do you know that some of the girls were in

9 the house?

10 A. No.

11 Q. And did RK tell you that there was some girls

12 in the house?

13 A. No.

14 Q. You said that knew the person under Number

15 87?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. On that occasion, did you talk to her?

18 A. Yes. I just asked her what she was doing

19 there.

20 Q. Can you tell me, when I tell you that person,

21 87, was questioned on the 4th of April, 2000, and that

22 on page 1.702 she said that there were no girls inside

23 the house --

24 A. You mean inside the Karaman House?

25 Q. She said that when she came, there was no one

Page 3623

1 inside.

2 A. Well, I said I didn't know whether there was

3 anyone inside.

4 Q. She didn't say that she had seen a school

5 friend of hers.

6 A. I am certain I saw her. Whether she saw me

7 or not, I don't know.

8 Q. On that occasion, did you talk to Person 190?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Did you meet her again during the war or

11 after the war?

12 A. I did, after the war.

13 Q. When did you meet her?

14 A. I don't know exactly when, but maybe about a

15 year ago.

16 Q. You mean in 1999?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did you talk about what had happened to you

19 and to her?

20 A. No.

21 Q. And how long did you spend with her when you

22 met her then?

23 A. I don't know exactly.

24 Q. Where did you meet?

25 A. In Sarajevo.

Page 3624

1 Q. Apart from the girls you saw on that

2 occasion, when they were going into the RK house, and

3 the men you enumerated, did you see anyone else?

4 A. No.

5 Q. You said that Zaga and Pedo put you in a car?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. After how long a time did you go with them?

8 A. I really don't know, I don't know. I can't

9 determine how long it was, how much time had elapsed.

10 Q. Did you talk to them as you were driving

11 along?

12 A. No, I think we didn't.

13 Q. You said that Pedo came to the Hrbinic house?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did RK talk to Pedo and ask him something?

16 A. I don't know. I don't know that.

17 Q. Let me just go back to my question, the

18 previous question. How did you get to know Girl 190?

19 A. Well, it was by chance that I knew her.

20 Q. Did she tell you where she was from?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did RK talk to Pedo?

23 A. I don't know.

24 Q. Did she ask him where you were going, where

25 he was taking you?

Page 3625

1 A. I really can't remember. I don't know.

2 Q. On that occasion, where did they take you?

3 A. To Trnovaca.

4 Q. When you arrived to the front of the house,

5 did you all go in?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Who did you find in the house when you went

8 in?

9 A. Gojko Jankovic, the Girls 191, 186, and JG.

10 Q. Did you introduce yourself to them then; did

11 you sit down with them?

12 A. No. We didn't stay there long.

13 Q. How long did you sit there?

14 A. Well, we didn't sit. We stood there. I

15 don't know exactly how long it was.

16 Q. So Gojko Jankovic was there --

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. -- of the men?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And who else?

21 A. A man. I think they called him Pusa. That's

22 what they called him.

23 Q. And where were Pedo and Zaga?

24 A. Zaga was there. And as for Pedo, I don't

25 remember. I don't remember whether he was there then.

Page 3626

1 Q. On that occasion when you were talking to

2 190, did she tell you how she came to be in the Karaman

3 House?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Witness 190 was questioned on the 23rd of

6 May, and on page 74 of the record she said she had been

7 brought there by the Samardzic brothers.

8 A. I really don't know. I didn't see that, and

9 I cannot assert exactly what happened.

10 Q. So you didn't see who brought those girls

11 there?

12 A. No.

13 Q. How long did you stay in the house in

14 Trnovaca?

15 A. You mean the first time? I don't know. I

16 don't know how long it was. We left the same night.

17 But how many hours we stayed there, I really can't

18 remember.

19 Q. On that occasion did you talk to any of the

20 girls?

21 A. No, not on that occasion.

22 Q. Did you talk to them on another occasion?

23 A. When I went back to the house, you mean?

24 Q. Yes.

25 A. Yes.

Page 3627

1 Q. When you got out of that house, who gave you

2 a ride?

3 A. Pusa.

4 Q. Do you remember which car he took you in?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Where did he take you?

7 A. To Brod.

8 Q. When you went to Sarajevo in 1997, did you

9 talk to your mother about what had happened to you?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Did you talk to any one of your family

12 members about what had happened to you?

13 A. No. I didn't talk about that to anyone.

14 Q. You said that you talked to your aunt.

15 A. Yes, but I did not tell her exactly what had

16 happened to me; I just told her little things.

17 Q. When did you talk to her?

18 A. As soon as I came, after -- I don't know

19 exactly after how much time.

20 Q. So you did not tell her anything about what

21 happened to you while you stayed in Miljevina and Foca?

22 A. No. I just told her who took me, and nothing

23 else.

24 Q. So what did you tell her? Who took you?

25 A. Zaga.

Page 3628

1 Q. What did she tell you then?

2 A. That she knew him from before the war.

3 Q. Where did this relative of yours live?

4 A. In Foca.

5 Q. You said, if that is that person, that she

6 was building a house.

7 A. Yes, before the war.

8 Q. How much before the war?

9 A. I really don't know.

10 Q. Did you visit your aunt?

11 A. Before the war, you mean?

12 Q. Yes.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did you go to her house?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Were you present when the house was being

17 built?

18 A. No.

19 Q. First you said that Zaga's father worked on

20 the house.

21 A. Yes. She said to me that Zaga's father was a

22 workman in the house and that he would help him every

23 now and then.

24 Q. What was Zaga's father?

25 A. I don't know. I really don't know. I think

Page 3629

1 that he is a workman who works with wood, but I'm not

2 sure really. I really am not sure.

3 Q. When you went to see your relative, was her

4 house completed then?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did she tell you where Zaga lived?

7 A. I don't remember. Perhaps she did tell me,

8 but I don't remember where he exactly lived.

9 Q. Is that the first time you found out what his

10 name was?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. When you came to the house in Trnovaca the

13 second time, when was that?

14 A. Three days later, I think, two or three days

15 later.

16 Q. Who brought you to the house in Trnovaca?

17 A. Gojko Jankovic.

18 Q. Where did he bring you from to the house in

19 Trnovaca?

20 A. We were at a weekend cottage. I don't know

21 exactly. I had never been there before.

22 Q. When you came to the house in Trnovaca three

23 days later, who was at the house?

24 A. Gojko Jankovic, Zaga, Gaga, Zoran Nikolic,

25 the girls 190, 186, and JG.

Page 3630

1 Q. Were all of you in the house that night?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you talk to any one of the girls that

4 night?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. With whom?

7 A. With girl JG.

8 Q. JG?

9 A. Yes. Yes. All of them, actually. Everybody

10 sat there.

11 Q. Did you talk to 191?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What did you talk about?

14 A. I don't remember.

15 Q. Did you talk about your trip, how you had

16 travelled?

17 A. I don't know. I really don't know.

18 Q. Did you say that some kind of incident had

19 occurred to you when you came the first time or the

20 second time?

21 A. I don't remember really.

22 Q. Did you say that you could have had an

23 automobile accident?

24 A. I don't know. I cannot exactly remember what

25 I was saying then.

Page 3631

1 Q. Did you have any problems on the road?

2 A. I don't know.

3 Q. I mean when Pedo and Zaga and Gojko, as you

4 said, were there any problems on the road?

5 A. I really don't know. I really cannot

6 remember.

7 Q. Can you tell me what happened to you that

8 night when you came?

9 A. Nothing the first night.

10 Q. When you arrived that night, you said that

11 Zaga, Zoran, and Jadranka, RK, Gojko, 186, 191, JG --

12 were Aca and Veso also there?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did you all sleep in that house?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Where did you sleep?

17 A. In a room on the ground floor.

18 Q. Are there other rooms on the ground floor?

19 A. I don't know. I don't know. I didn't see

20 any other rooms. I just saw this one room, but I don't

21 know whether there are any others.

22 Q. How much time did you spend at that house?

23 A. Well, perhaps five or six days.

24 Q. During those five or six days you spent at

25 the house, did you see any other rooms on the ground

Page 3632

1 floor?

2 A. No.

3 Q. How many beds are in that room?

4 A. I think there were two.

5 Q. You slept in one and Veso in the other;

6 right?

7 A. No. RK and Aca were together with us.

8 Q. Can you draw a sketch of this room for me,

9 and could you draw these two beds in that room?

10 A. I don't know. I can try, but I don't know if

11 I'm going to do it exactly the way it was.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Is it important, Counsel? I

13 mean, the witness is not sure.

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, then

15 let the witness say that she can't and that she can't

16 remember, but if she can, let her say so.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: The witness has already said

18 that she doesn't know whether she's going to do it

19 exactly the way it was, which means she can't remember

20 exactly. And also, you haven't told the Trial Chamber

21 why it is important.

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

23 it is important because the witness stayed there and

24 she said that four of them slept in that room, and

25 other witnesses testified about one bed being in that

Page 3633

1 room. But if she doesn't remember --

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, that's the point. It's

4 not important. If other witnesses said there was one

5 bed and this witness says there are two beds and

6 another witness says there are three beds, does it

7 matter? The point is, they were in that house.

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] We don't know

9 whether they were in that house. If they were in that

10 house during six days, I do not see any reason why she

11 could not remember where she was, especially because

12 the other witnesses testified that someone else had

13 slept in that room with yet another person.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Then that doesn't

15 make the drawing important. Let's proceed.

16 THE WITNESS: I can draw it, but I'm not sure

17 of what I'm doing.

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: That won't help the Trial

20 Chamber.

21 THE WITNESS: I think that quite a bit of

22 time has gone by since then.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: That won't help the Trial

24 Chamber. Witness, don't bother with it.

25 Counsel, please proceed.

Page 3634

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. The night when you were in that house and

3 when you said when RK and Aca slept there, and you and

4 Veso slept there, nothing happened to you that night,

5 do you know where the rest were in that house during

6 that night?

7 A. I don't know.

8 Q. During your stay in the house that night, did

9 you see how many rooms there were?

10 A. Not that night, no.

11 Q. Did you see who went to which room with whom?

12 A. I think I did not see it, but I heard later.

13 Q. What did you hear later?

14 A. Well, the girls said who they had spent that

15 night with.

16 Q. When did they tell you that, and what did

17 they tell you?

18 A. 191 said that she was with Zaga, and she said

19 that throughout her stay in that house, she had been

20 with him. 186 had been with Gojko Jankovic.

21 Q. Where was JG?

22 A. With Gaga. That is what he said the next

23 night, and that is what she said too.

24 Q. And where was Zoran and Jadranka?

25 A. I don't know where they were that night.

Page 3635

1 Q. Did 191 tell you which room she was in with

2 Zaga?

3 A. No. I think then it was not that important

4 for her to tell me which room she was sleeping in. It

5 didn't really occur to us that we could talk about

6 things like that.

7 Q. Did 186 tell you?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Did you talk about what had happened to them

10 that night at all?

11 A. No, we did not talk about that.

12 Q. How come you knew, then, that 191 was with

13 Zaga?

14 A. She told me that she was with him, but she

15 did not tell me exactly what had happened to her.

16 Q. Did you see them in some room?

17 A. No.

18 Q. How long was Zaga there while you were there?

19 A. Until the end, until I left. I don't know

20 about after that.

21 Q. So he was there every night during those five

22 days?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Was Gaga there every night as well, and Zoran

25 and Gojko too?

Page 3636

1 A. Yes. During the night, they were there. Not

2 during the day, though.

3 Q. You said that Jadranka was with Zoran?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did you see that or did you hear about it?

6 A. I saw it.

7 Q. When was this?

8 A. I don't know exactly when this was, but it

9 was in those five or six days. I can't say the exact

10 day now or something like that.

11 Q. How many times did you see them together?

12 A. Once then.

13 Q. Which room was this?

14 A. Upstairs.

15 Q. Was this a bigger room or a smaller room?

16 A. I think it was a bit bigger.

17 Q. Did anybody else see that, apart from you?

18 A. Yes. All of us who were there saw it.

19 Q. How did you see that?

20 A. They called us to the door, and they asked us

21 to watch what the two of them were doing.

22 Q. Who asked you?

23 A. Gojko, Zaga. All of us were there.

24 Q. Did you see Zoran and Jadranka any other

25 time?

Page 3637

1 A. No, no, but she told us -- she told us that

2 she was having a relationship with him.

3 Q. During those five or six days that you spent

4 at that house, which room did you spend most of your

5 time in and where did you sleep during the night?

6 A. I was in every room. I don't know exactly in

7 which one I spent most of the time.

8 Q. During those five nights that you spent

9 there, did you see where 186 slept?

10 A. I don't know.

11 Q. Did you ever see her enter a room with Gojko?

12 A. I really can't remember.

13 Q. Did you see 191 in some room with Zaga?

14 A. No, no, I did not.

15 Q. Did you ever see them enter a room?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Did you see Person JG?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Did you see her in some room with any one of

20 these men who were present?

21 A. No.

22 Q. During those five nights spent there, did you

23 see any one of these men take any one of the girls into

24 a room, or did all of you just sit together in that big

25 living room?

Page 3638

1 A. During the day, we would all sit there

2 together. But in the evening, I really don't know.

3 They would be -- they would leave that room, but where

4 they would go, to what room, that I really don't know.

5 Q. So you know all this on the basis of what you

6 heard people saying?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You talked about this among yourselves?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did you tell 191 what had happened to you?

11 A. I think I did. I don't know.

12 Q. Who did you tell her about?

13 A. About Gaga.

14 Q. When did this happen in relation to the time

15 of your second arrival? Was it the first day, the

16 second day?

17 A. It was on the second night, the second time I

18 was in the house.

19 Q. That Zoran, while you were in the house, was

20 he there all the time?

21 A. You mean Gaga?

22 Q. Zoran.

23 A. Zoran?

24 Q. Was he there every night?

25 A. I don't know.

Page 3639

1 Q. And was Gaga there every night?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. How many nights did Gaga spend with you?

4 A. One night.

5 Q. How did Kunarac -- since you saw him every

6 evening, how was he dressed those days?

7 A. In a camouflage uniform.

8 Q. Did he have any insignia on that uniform?

9 A. He had a three-coloured flag. I'm sure about

10 that. I don't know what other badges he had.

11 Q. Did he have anything characteristic on him?

12 A. I don't know.

13 Q. Was he wearing a kerchief or some kind of

14 band around his head?

15 A. I really can't remember.

16 Q. Did he have a bandage on his arm or body, or

17 did anyone mention this?

18 A. They did say something about it, but I didn't

19 see any bandages on Zaga. I did see bandages on Gaga,

20 but not on Zaga.

21 Q. Did he wear a kerchief around his neck?

22 A. I really can't remember. I can't tell you

23 exactly, because I'm not sure.

24 Q. During those five days that you spent in the

25 house in Trnovaca, can you say how often or how long

Page 3640

1 you saw Zaga?

2 A. I don't know. He was there in the evenings

3 all the time.

4 Q. Did you talk to him?

5 A. No. No, I didn't talk to him.

6 Q. During your stay in that house, did other

7 soldiers come there?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Who came? Did you meet any of them?

10 A. No. A day before I left that house, quite a

11 few of them came, quite a few soldiers, but I didn't

12 introduce myself or talk to them.

13 Q. Who did you meet?

14 A. I didn't meet the man who raped me, I just

15 saw him. His name was Fantom.

16 Q. When was this? Was that the last night?

17 A. Yes, it was the night before I left or,

18 rather, the day before I left; not the night but the

19 day before I left.

20 Q. Did that happen during the day or during the

21 night?

22 A. During the day.

23 Q. Who was in the house at the time?

24 A. Everyone was there; Jadranka, Gaga, Gojko,

25 and other soldiers whom I did not know.

Page 3641

1 Q. In which room did that young man rape you?

2 A. On the ground floor.

3 Q. Did they see this?

4 A. Witness 191 saw it.

5 Q. What did she see? Did she see that young man

6 take you away?

7 A. No. Jadranka took me to that room and locked

8 me in. After a certain time, she -- I mean Girl 191

9 came into the room.

10 Q. Today you told me that all those men spent

11 the evenings in the house and were not there during the

12 day?

13 A. Yes, but they were there that day.

14 Q. They were all there; Zoran, Gaga, Zaga?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Were Aca and Veso there?

17 A. No.

18 Q. You said that you left the house with a young

19 man called Sasa?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Can you say when this happened?

22 A. I don't know. I can't remember the exact

23 date. It was in mid-August. I don't know.

24 Q. Could that have been the 15th or the 16th of

25 August?

Page 3642

1 A. I really don't know.

2 Q. You said that after your first day in the

3 house in Trnovaca, you were taken by Pusa to a house in

4 Brod?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. How long did you stay in that house?

7 A. One night.

8 Q. Did you meet anyone in that house?

9 A. Yes, Veso. He was in that house when we

10 arrived.

11 Q. And on the following day, you were taken to

12 an apartment in Brod?

13 A. Yes, to Gica's.

14 Q. And who took you there?

15 A. Veso and Pusa.

16 Q. How long did you stay in that apartment?

17 A. Well, two days, approximately.

18 Q. Did you spend the night in that flat?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did any soldiers come to that flat?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Who came of the soldiers?

23 A. Gica was there, Relja would come, Aca was

24 there, and Radmilo.

25 Q. Which of the girls were in that flat?

Page 3643

1 A. There was girl number 50 and girl number 205.

2 Q. And you spent two days and two nights with

3 them there?

4 A. With them, yes, but I don't know exactly how

5 many days and how many nights.

6 Q. You have just said two days.

7 A. Well, I said approximately two or three days,

8 but I cannot assert with any certainty whether it was

9 two or three days.

10 Q. And they were there the whole time?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did you see anything happen to them?

13 A. No. Yes. Yes. Girl RK was there with us

14 also, and I saw something happen to her.

15 Q. Did you all sleep in that flat?

16 A. No. There was another flat next door to it.

17 Q. You said that number 50 was a school friend

18 of yours.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you talk to her?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did you talk about what was happening to you?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And what did she tell you?

25 A. She told me that she had been in Partizan,

Page 3644

1 that she was pregnant, and that the father was Zaga.

2 Q. During your stay in that house, did Zaga come

3 there?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Did you see any of the men rape number 50?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Number 50 was questioned on the 29th of March

8 2000, and on page 1269 she said that she met you, that

9 you didn't talk about what was happening to you but

10 only about unimportant matters.

11 A. I don't know.

12 Q. Do you still say that you talked about it?

13 A. Yes, I do.

14 Q. Just a few more questions. You gave how many

15 statements?

16 A. I think I made one -- I don't know. To

17 whom? What do you mean?

18 Q. To what organs did you make statements about

19 what had happened to you?

20 A. I made a statement for The Hague Tribunal and

21 I talked to my psychiatrist, to my psychologist. I

22 mean, I talked about everything that had happened with

23 her.

24 Q. Did you talk to a psychologist first and then

25 to the investigators?

Page 3645

1 A. I don't know exactly.

2 Q. And at whose request did you make this

3 statement? How did it come about that you made a

4 statement?

5 A. I don't know exactly. They asked me whether

6 I wanted to make a statement, and I agreed.

7 Q. Who asked you?

8 A. I don't know now. I really don't know. It

9 was two or three years ago, and I cannot remember

10 everything exactly.

11 Q. Did you talk to your mother about all this?

12 A. No. No, I didn't.

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] May I just

14 consult my colleagues?

15 [Defence counsel confer]

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Let me just ask you whether a man called

18 Grujo came to the house in Trnovaca and whether you got

19 to know him.

20 A. Well, you know, I don't recognise the name.

21 He may have come there, but --

22 Q. And before you made your statement to the

23 investigators of the Tribunal, did you give any other

24 statements?

25 A. You mean before that? I think I didn't, but

Page 3646

1 I don't know.

2 Q. Did you give a statement to the agency for

3 investigation in Sarajevo in June?

4 A. I don't know. It's possible.

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I

6 have no further questions.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

8 Mr. Kolesar, please.

9 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

10 the Defence for the accused Radomir Kovac does not have

11 any questions for this witness.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

13 Mr. Jovanovic?

14 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your

15 Honour, we do not have any questions.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: And before Mr. Jovanovic will

17 sit down, there was an inquiry on your appearing before

18 the Trial Chamber last week, and the Trial Chamber was

19 given a copy of your letter dated 11th May, which was

20 faxed on the 15th of May, the morning of the sitting.

21 And we made inquiries with the Registry. We actually

22 found out that another copy was faxed on the same day,

23 the 11th May, and it was received by the Registry. And

24 then the Registry did inform the Trial Chamber that

25 actually the Registrar does require a minimum of eight

Page 3647

1 working days to be able to process the request for

2 visas, because the Registrar works through the Ministry

3 of Foreign Affairs.

4 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

5 Your Honour, for having asked. I sent the fax at the

6 moment when I found out about the problem that cropped

7 up. I do realise that there is a time requirement

8 involved, and I realise that this is a technical

9 problem that was due to that matter.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Thank you. Any

11 re-examination by the Prosecution?

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you very much, Witness,

14 for giving evidence to the Tribunal. You are

15 released.

16 [The witness withdrew]

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.

18 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, Your Honour. I

19 understand that the next witness is number 183, and I

20 expect that we may have some technical things that need

21 to be done in order to ensure that the appropriate

22 protective measures are in place. I'm noting the

23 time. Do you wish us to attend to those and then

24 reconvene? In my experience, it takes about ten

25 minutes. I'm in your hands.

Page 3648

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE MUMBA: The registrar is informing us

3 that we actually don't need a break because it's the

4 same protective measures as this witness. Maybe they

5 have changed.

6 MR. RYNEVELD: My understanding is that they

7 have to individualise each different individual's

8 voice. That's the difficulty. And this witness came

9 in on the weekend. I don't know whether they have

10 actually had an -- oh, we're getting a signal from the

11 booth. I don't know -- perhaps the registrar might be

12 able to assist.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: I don't understand sign

14 language.

15 MR. RYNEVELD: Nor do I; that's my

16 difficulty. I'm anxious to proceed as quickly as

17 possible, but I don't know whether we're getting a

18 signal that we can proceed or whether he needs time.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Let's hear from the registrar.

20 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] From the very

21 beginning, ever since we introduced this system for

22 voice distortion, we always need five minutes in order

23 to adjust it, depending on the witness concerned.

24 However, since this time it is this particular witness,

25 we do not have to do it again every time, so this time

Page 3649

1 we can continue as it is.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. So we can proceed.

3 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. I'd call Witness

4 183. And while the usher is -- oh, he's escorting the

5 other witness out. I might just indicate that 183 and

6 61 will be testifying with respect to counts 11 through

7 13. I believe you had indicated for us to indicate

8 which counts the witnesses will be testifying in

9 relation to.

10 While we're awaiting the usher, my colleague

11 has an issue that she might like to raise, if this is a

12 convenient time.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. She can go ahead.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It's a procedural matter

15 and it concerns the Witness DB, who is going to testify

16 I think tomorrow afternoon. There are no protective

17 measures in place for this witness. We had requested

18 protective measures for this witness, but it was in an

19 ex parte and confidential motion, and this motion was

20 not granted. So I would now orally request a closed

21 session for this witness. The reasons why a closed

22 session -- the witness herself has requested this, and

23 the reasons were given in this motion. It's security

24 reasons, and also the witness has not told it to her

25 family or anybody else what happened to her, and

Page 3650

1 therefore she requests to testify in closed session.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: The Defence, any submissions on

3 the protective measures for Witness DB?

4 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your

5 Honour. We are not opposed to the proposal made by our

6 colleagues from the Prosecution.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar?

8 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

9 the Defence for the accused Kovac is not opposed to

10 having that witness testify in closed session.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Jovanovic?

12 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

13 we agree with the proposal of our colleagues from the

14 Prosecution that that witness be heard in closed

15 session.

16 [The witness entered court]

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE MUMBA: The Trial Chamber will give its

19 decision in due course, certainly before DB testifies.

20 Yes. The witness can make the solemn

21 declaration.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly

23 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

24 and nothing but the truth.


Page 3651

1 [Witness answered through interpreter]

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you, witness. Please sit

3 down.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.

5 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour. Might

6 the usher, just before you leave, show the witness what

7 I propose to enter in these proceedings as Exhibit -- I

8 believe, Madam Registrar, it's 221 for the

9 Prosecution. May I just confirm that it is, in fact --

10 the next number is 221?

11 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This is 221,

12 indeed, Prosecutor's Exhibit 221, under seal.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

14 Examined by Mr. Ryneveld:

15 Q. Now, Witness, if you look at the piece of

16 paper that has just been handed to you by the usher, do

17 you see your name at the top of that paper?

18 A. I do.

19 Q. And behind your name, do you see a number,

20 183?

21 A. I do.

22 Q. Do you understand that for the balance of

23 these proceedings, you'll be referred to as Witness

24 183? Do you understand that?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3652

1 Q. Underneath your name, do you see your date of

2 birth given?

3 A. I do.

4 Q. Is that your correct date of birth?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Underneath your date of birth, there are

7 three names. The first of those names has the number

8 "61" behind it. Do you know that person?

9 A. I know that person.

10 Q. And is that person a friend and a neighbour

11 of yours when you were in Foca?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And the following two names beside 80 and 81,

14 were those also neighbours of yours in Foca in 1992?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 A. You're welcome.

18 Q. I understand, Witness, that you were born in

19 a village. Can you tell us the name of the village

20 where you were born?

21 A. I can. Todjevac.

22 Q. And I understand that that village is about

23 35 kilometres from the town of Foca. Is that correct?

24 A. That's correct.

25 Q. And its direction is towards Montenegro from

Page 3653

1 Foca, between Foca and Montenegro; is that correct?

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. Now, at the time of the outbreak of war in

4 Foca, I understand that you were married and that you

5 had a son. Is that correct?

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. At the time of the outbreak of the war in

8 1992, can you tell us how old your son was?

9 A. Twelve.

10 Q. And do I understand as well, Witness, that

11 you were a business woman, you had your own corner

12 store or grocery store in Foca?

13 A. Correct, I did.

14 Q. And did you live at your store, or were your

15 store and the place where you were living, were they in

16 two separate locations?

17 A. In two separate locations.

18 Q. Can you tell us not necessarily the address,

19 but can you tell us where your place of residence was

20 located? Was it across from any particular building,

21 for example?

22 A. Yes. It was across the street from the SUP.

23 Q. And by "the SUP", you're referring to what we

24 would think of as the police building; is that correct?

25 A. Yes, precisely in front of the SUP.

Page 3654

1 Q. Could you also, from your place of residence,

2 could you see a building known as Partizan Sports Hall?

3 A. Of course.

4 Q. Now, this building in which you were a

5 resident, were there a number of other apartments in

6 that building?

7 A. Yes. There were six apartments at my

8 entrance.

9 Q. I take it there were other entrances as well

10 to this particular building. Is that correct?

11 A. Yes, two more entrances and then my entrance,

12 so it's a total of three.

13 Q. And is it safe to say that the inhabitants of

14 this building were mixed; in other words, there were

15 both Serbs and Muslims living in your building?

16 A. That's correct.

17 MR. RYNEVELD: I note the time. I wonder if

18 you wish to break at this point.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. It is now 1100. We

20 should take our break and continue the proceedings at

21 1130 hours.

22 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

23 --- On resuming at 11.32 a.m.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Please proceed with the

25 examination-in-chief.

Page 3655

1 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Q. Now, Witness, just before we continue, I want

3 to remind you again how important it is that if, in the

4 course of your evidence, you are going to be referring

5 to any of the individuals whose names are on the list,

6 that you refer to them by number only. Okay, you

7 understand that?

8 A. I understand.

9 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. I might indicate

10 we may have to be on guard for redactions in this

11 particular case, in my experience.


13 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

14 Q. Now, Witness, I'd like you to turn your mind,

15 if you would, please, to April of 1992, when the war

16 broke out in Foca. Can you tell us where you were and

17 what you were doing at that particular time? First of

18 all, when was that?

19 A. It happened on the 7th of April. I was in my

20 house when the shooting started.

21 Q. And what did you do when the shooting

22 started?

23 A. When the shooting started, I stayed in my

24 flat for a moment, but then we ran down to the

25 basement.

Page 3656

1 Q. And this is the basement of the apartment

2 building that you have described earlier; is that

3 correct?

4 A. Yes, that's correct.

5 Q. And when you got there, were you joined by

6 other neighbours?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And among those neighbours, were 80 and 81

9 also there?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. How about 61; did she also join you in the

12 basement?

13 A. No.

14 Q. (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 A. (redacted).

17 Q. How many people would you say were in the

18 group that was hiding in the basement?

19 A. Oh, there were quite a few of us. There were

20 10 to 15 people, there were women, and so on.

21 Q. Were they of mixed ethnicity or was there a

22 particular group of people that were hiding in the

23 basement?

24 A. No.

25 Q. That's my fault. I asked a double question.

Page 3657

1 "No" what? No, they were not of mixed ethnicity,

2 or -- I'll rephrase it.

3 Were there both Serbs and Muslims hiding in

4 the basement or were they all Muslims?

5 A. Both Serbs and Muslims.

6 Q. How long did you hide?

7 A. Well, I used to hide almost every evening

8 until I left Foca.

9 Q. And when did you leave Foca?

10 A. 13th or 14th of April.

11 Q. Where did you go?

12 A. I went to Gorazde.

13 Q. Did you go with your family?

14 A. Yes, with my husband and my child.

15 Q. And when you left Foca, was the war still on?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did you have any difficulties driving from

18 Foca to Gorazde?

19 A. No.

20 Q. I take it you and your family stayed in

21 Gorazde for a number of days. Did you?

22 A. Yes. I stayed until the 23rd of April. And

23 my husband stayed on after that.

24 Q. Now, you stayed until the 23rd of April.

25 Where did you go on that date?

Page 3658

1 A. I went back to Foca.

2 Q. Why?

3 A. Because the Serbs announced on the Foca radio

4 station that all Muslims who were not to blame for

5 anything should come back in order to preserve their

6 flats and their jobs, and that they could go on working

7 there.

8 Q. You told us earlier that you ran a grocery

9 store in Foca. Is that why you returned?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What was your understanding about what would

12 happen to your store if you did not return?

13 A. Well, I understood that they were breaking

14 into flats, taking them, and I thought that my shop

15 would be looted.

16 Q. Did your husband come with you back to Foca?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Why not?

19 A. Because he wasn't safe.

20 Q. Do you know why?

21 A. Well, what do I know? He was probably afraid

22 that the same thing would happen to him that happened

23 to me.

24 Q. In any event, your husband chose to stay in

25 Gorazde while you went back to Foca with your son; is

Page 3659

1 that correct?

2 A. That's correct.

3 Q. Did you leave on the 23rd of April, and if

4 so, how did you go back?

5 A. My husband brought me to a place where I

6 found person 61, who agreed to go to Foca with me, and

7 we went on foot.

8 Q. You went on foot to Foca?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. How far was that?

11 A. It was a long way. I don't know exactly how

12 long, but we walked for a long time.

13 Q. And when you arrived in Foca, was there any

14 difference from the Foca you had left on the -- well, a

15 couple of weeks earlier?

16 A. Well, yes. There was no shooting, and when

17 we arrived at the hospital, there was a barricade there

18 and there were soldiers there. They asked us for our

19 identity cards, asked us where we had been. We said we

20 had been in Gorazde, and they let us through without

21 any problems.

22 Q. Did you go back to your flat?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did you eventually go back to your store to

25 see how it had fared during the time you were gone?

Page 3660

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What condition was your store in?

3 A. My store had been broken into and looted, and

4 there was nothing left inside.

5 Q. So what did you do?

6 A. Nothing. I just closed the door and went

7 back to my flat.

8 Q. When you got back to your flat, were your

9 neighbours -- many of your neighbours still around, or

10 had they left in the interim as well?

11 A. There were still some neighbours there.

12 Q. Were they both Muslims and Serbs?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Was anybody still hiding?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What type of people were hiding?

17 A. Numbers 80 and 81, and many others were

18 hiding.

19 Q. The people that were hiding, were there any

20 Muslim men among them?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. While you were back in Foca after the 23rd of

23 April, can you describe what living conditions were

24 like for a period of time? In other words, were you

25 able to move around freely, were you able to go

Page 3661

1 shopping? Tell us about that.

2 A. Well, in the beginning it wasn't so bad, but

3 later on we couldn't move around, because the military

4 police announced that the Muslim women should not meet

5 each other or hang around in the town.

6 Q. How do you know that the military police were

7 making those rules? How did you hear about those

8 rules?

9 A. From my window, I saw a police car driving

10 around the town with a loudspeaker, and they were

11 making this announcement.

12 Q. Could you tell what kind of cars -- you said

13 there were police cars, did you, that were making these

14 announcements?

15 A. That's right. They were the same cars that

16 they had used before the war.

17 Q. Now, ultimately I understand that you left

18 Foca on the 13th of August, 1992; is that correct?

19 A. That's correct.

20 Q. Between the 23rd of April and the 13th of

21 August, did you remain in Foca?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. How were you able to exist? How would you

24 get food? How were you able to get around?

25 A. Well, let's say I would put on black clothes

Page 3662

1 to go out, to buy something, and I had quite a lot of

2 food in my flat.

3 Q. Why did you dress in black?

4 A. Well, because Serb women wear black when they

5 are in mourning, so I wanted them to think that's what

6 I was.

7 Q. Did you succeed in convincing people that, by

8 your dress, that you were other than what you were?

9 A. Well, believe me, I didn't have any problems

10 when I went out for short periods of time.

11 Q. You've told us earlier that your apartment

12 building was near the SUP and that you could see

13 Partizan Sports Hall; is that correct?

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. During the period between the 23rd of April

16 and the 13th of August, did Serb soldiers come to your

17 apartment?

18 A. Yes. As soon as I came back from Gorazde on

19 the third day, they would come, and they always

20 introduced themselves as military policemen and said

21 they had to search our flats to make sure we weren't

22 keeping something there, such as weapons or something

23 like that.

24 Q. And what type of people would come to

25 search? Were they soldiers, or police, or a

Page 3663

1 combination of both?

2 A. Mostly they wore civilian clothes and said

3 they were policemen, but they were not wearing police

4 uniforms.

5 Q. Did they wear any insignia of any kind that

6 made you conclude that they were military police?

7 A. Well, some showed us cards, but we didn't

8 look at them. And they wore fingerless gloves, and

9 they wore bands around their heads.

10 Q. Were any of them in camouflage uniforms?

11 A. Sometimes, occasionally, yes.

12 Q. Were they armed? Did they have weapons?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did you know any of these soldiers that came

15 or military police that came to your apartment to

16 search?

17 A. No, I didn't know them.

18 Q. In addition to searching for weapons, did

19 they tell you anything about what should be happening

20 to you?

21 A. Yes. They used to say that we should be

22 raped so that we would bear Serb children, and when

23 they grew up and asked about their fathers, we would

24 say that their fathers had gone away.

25 Q. To your knowledge, did they find any weapons

Page 3664

1 in your apartment or other of your neighbours'

2 apartments?

3 A. Not in my flat. I don't know about others'.

4 Q. Did they take anything else away?

5 A. Yes. They took cassettes, alcohol, coffee,

6 stereo players, anything they liked, leather jackets.

7 Q. Of the flats in your apartment building, do

8 you know whether it was -- were they searching both

9 Muslim and Serb flats or only Muslim flats?

10 A. I think it was only Muslim flats.

11 Q. Now, I understand that there was an incident

12 where an individual came to your apartment and

13 threatened you. Is that correct?

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. Could you tell us about that incident,

16 please?

17 A. You mean what happened to me when I was taken

18 away?

19 Q. We'll get to that. In the interim, perhaps I

20 should direct your attention to another incident when

21 you were staying at the flat of one of your Muslim

22 neighbours.

23 A. Yes. A person came to my neighbour's flat

24 and found me and took me into the kitchen.

25 Q. What happened next?

Page 3665

1 A. He took me into the kitchen and told me to

2 unbutton my blouse because he wanted to see my breasts

3 and my stomach. He said he wanted to rape me. In

4 fact, he said he wanted to fuck me.

5 Q. What did you do?

6 A. I started to cry and tremble, and I begged

7 him not to touch me. I said we had been good friends.

8 I had always made coffee for him, because he used to

9 come often. And he saw that I was frightened, and he

10 said I should just give him the keys to my flat.

11 Q. Did you give him the keys to your flat?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, you say that you prevailed on him

14 because you said that you were good friends, you had

15 made him coffee. Had you seen this particular

16 individual on a number of previous occasions?

17 A. Yes. When the war started and I arrived in

18 Foca, he kept coming. He came all the time, day and

19 night, and he introduced himself as military police.

20 Q. Did he wear any insignia showing that he was

21 with the military police?

22 A. I didn't pay any attention. They showed some

23 cards, but I didn't really look at them properly.

24 Q. Can you describe this individual for us that

25 you had seen on a number of occasions?

Page 3666

1 A. Yes, I can describe him. His hair was cut

2 short. He often wore a leather jacket, a vest. He was

3 skinny. His teeth were not very good.

4 Q. Did he ever tell you what his name was?

5 A. His fellows who came with him, one or two

6 soldiers always came with him, he said his name was

7 Krezo. That's how he introduced himself.

8 Q. Did you find out his last name?

9 A. Yes. One day when he came to my flat and

10 complained that his brother had committed suicide, we

11 discovered from -- we had learned from our neighbours

12 before that that that was Kovac.

13 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Objection.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Kolesar.

15 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

16 this witness is to testify to counts 11 to 13 of the

17 indictment, and my learned colleague said this. The

18 line of questioning now does not refer to counts 11 to

19 13, so I object to this line of questioning and ask

20 that it be deleted from the transcript.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Anything else?

22 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] No, Your

23 Honour.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Ryneveld.

25 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honours, in my respectful

Page 3667

1 submission, this is relevant that although this witness

2 is primarily to testify with respect to counts 11

3 through 13, much of the balance of the evidence will

4 also help unfold the narrative and provide

5 corroborative evidence for what some other witnesses

6 will be saying.

7 I might indicate that, for example, she will

8 also be asked questions about what she could see about

9 what was going on at Partizan. Now, that's not

10 necessarily counts 11 through 13, but we're not

11 restricted, I would submit, subject always to the

12 Court's order, from limiting a witness's evidence. And

13 if it turns out that this evidence becomes relevant for

14 other purposes, even though there is not a charge, the

15 Court may well take it into account on other matters

16 such as sentencing.

17 In my respectful view, it's premature to say

18 how relevant this is. I'm about to explore that.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Is the Kovac to which she

20 referred going to be the accused?

21 MR. RYNEVELD: Of that, I'm not sure.

22 However, during cross-examination you will recall that

23 the witness -- in cross-examination, reference was made

24 to a Kovac whose brother had committed suicide. You've

25 just heard this witness testify that the Kovac who

Page 3668

1 dealt with her, although by a different nickname,

2 indicated that his brother committed suicide.

3 JUDGE HUNT: You're seeking, then, to show

4 that it is this accused?

5 MR. RYNEVELD: I'm about to find that out.

6 I'm not sure.

7 JUDGE HUNT: What is relevant, of course, is

8 one thing. What is fair to an accused person may be

9 another. There must be some notification of the case

10 which the accused has to meet.

11 MR. RYNEVELD: True. I might say that up

12 until I guess it was on Friday when the evidence from

13 the Defence about Mr. Kovac's brother having committed

14 suicide came to light, and a proofing session wherein

15 the witness indicated the very same thing, that this

16 matter became of interest. Otherwise, one looks at the

17 name "Krezo" and one doesn't make the connection.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Certainly, and no doubt

19 Mr. Kolesar will say he didn't either, assuming that

20 that's the name in the witness's statement. But is he

21 not entitled to some form of notice? If you knew this

22 last Friday, or whenever it was you had your proofing

23 session, do you not think that there was some

24 obligation upon the Prosecution to notify Mr. Kolesar

25 that this may come up?

Page 3669

1 MR. RYNEVELD: With respect, Your Honour, I

2 am not sure whether this will come up or not. My -- if

3 I might just be allowed to continue a little further,

4 it may well be that this matter is not at all of

5 relevance.

6 JUDGE HUNT: This wasn't discussed during the

7 proofing session that you referred to? You didn't take

8 it further and ask the witness something more to

9 indicate just who it was she was referring to?

10 MR. RYNEVELD: That is correct, Your Honour.

11 With respect, I was not in a position to ask any

12 further questions about identification possibilities

13 during the proofing session.

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Ryneveld, my own personal

16 reaction would be if this is going to identify this

17 accused Kovac, then you should be entitled to pursue it

18 with the witness in chief, and then Mr. Kolesar should

19 be given the opportunity later to investigate. And if

20 necessary, the witness should be brought back.

21 But what concerns me is you say you weren't

22 in a position to ask her anything further on the

23 question of identification. Why were you not? Are you

24 going to get it out of this witness or somebody else to

25 tie it in with this Mr. Kovac?

Page 3670

1 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honour, my -- I'm just

2 wondering, should the witness be excused during what

3 I'm about to say? I'm just wondering. It's up to you,

4 but --

5 JUDGE HUNT: You brought this upon yourself,

6 if I may say, for having not revealed this at the

7 beginning, that we were going to go in this direction.

8 Can you just answer "yes" or "no"? If you had the

9 opportunity of having a further conference with her,

10 would that resolve the problem as to whether she can

11 identify this particular accused or not?

12 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, I believe it would.

13 There is yet another witness. If you can

14 look at the bottom of the statement that this witness

15 has given, there is a reference to Witness 61. It may

16 be that either 183 or 61 will be able to shed some

17 light as to the identity of the person referred to in

18 the statement.

19 JUDGE HUNT: If I may say so, we shouldn't be

20 put in the position of having to deal with it in this

21 way. It's something which you should have had sorted

22 out before you called this witness.

23 Now, if it will assist in you having a

24 conference, from my own point of view, I would permit

25 you to have a conference with the witness to find out

Page 3671

1 so we know one way or the other way, where we're

2 going.

3 MR. RYNEVELD: I would be happy to do that,

4 and if the Court wishes, perhaps Mr. Kolesar might also

5 be in attendance to make sure that I'm not saying

6 anything -- I might suggest that as well.

7 JUDGE HUNT: That would be a very good idea.

8 You would have to have an interpreter.

9 MR. RYNEVELD: Of course.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Well, now, what you should do --

11 sorry. I withdraw that. How long do you think you'll

12 be with this witness in chief, other than on this

13 issue?

14 MR. RYNEVELD: Perhaps another half hour,

15 half hour to three quarters of an hour. I hope to

16 finish before 1.00.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 MR. RYNEVELD: If I might assist, there's

19 just -- I can tell you that the way in which I would

20 propose to deal with this would take one question in a

21 conference. If the answer to my question was yes -- or

22 no -- this would not take long.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Maybe we'll hear

24 Mr. Kolesar as well.

25 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

Page 3672

1 before my learned colleague brought this witness in, he

2 said that the examination-in-chief would relate to

3 counts 11 through 13 of the indictment. These last few

4 questions go beyond the indictment in general, let

5 alone counts 11 to 13 only. In my opinion, we are now

6 in trial stage, not pre-trial stage. I don't think

7 that this is the right point in time when questions

8 should be put in relation to that to which they were

9 put during these last few minutes. That would be all.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar, you are aware that

11 the Trial Chamber can call or receive evidence which it

12 considers has probative value, and since counsel for

13 the Prosecution is not sure what the answer of the

14 witness would be, the best thing would be to allow the

15 Prosecution and yourself and the witness to confer

16 during the lunch break. Otherwise we continue with the

17 examination-in-chief surrounding other material

18 evidence, and then we give that opportunity for

19 conferring during the lunch break and, if necessary,

20 continuing with the witness today, in the afternoon,

21 with further examination-in-chief, perhaps, and

22 cross-examination. That way it may not be necessary to

23 break the witness at this stage.

24 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I have

25 understood, Your Honour.

Page 3673

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Ryneveld, you may continue

2 with other material evidence not touching this

3 question.

4 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you very much, Your

5 Honour.

6 Q. Now, Witness, I understand that during your

7 stay a number of soldiers and military policemen came

8 to your apartment and to your neighbours' apartment

9 from time to time; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. I'd like you to turn your mind now to an

12 incident which I understand may have occurred during

13 July of 1992, and I understand that you were in one of

14 your neighbours' flats, the flat -- when an incident

15 occurred. Do you remember that incident?

16 A. I remember it very well. I was at my

17 neighbour's place. Krezo Kovac came with a young man.

18 They came to the door. He took my hand immediately and

19 took me to the kitchen. He told me to unbutton my

20 blouse so that he could see my breasts and my stomach.

21 Q. All right. I'm going to leave that topic for

22 the time being and move to a time in mid-July, when you

23 were in a Serb neighbour's apartment. This is a

24 totally different incident. Do you understand?

25 A. Yes, I do understand now.

Page 3674

1 Q. Do you recall being in the flat across the

2 hall from yours, opposite your flat?

3 A. I do.

4 Q. And I understand that there were some

5 refugees, actually, that were in your flat at the time

6 when you were across the hall; is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Could you turn your mind to approximately

9 midnight of that day in July, when some soldiers came

10 to the house, and tell us what happened.

11 A. The following happened: I was with a lady

12 neighbour, and there was another Serb who was guarding

13 us, and then three unknown soldiers came. They rang at

14 my door and also at my friend's door, this friend's

15 place where I was. On my door it says a Serb name, so

16 they didn't know exactly which apartment was mine.

17 My neighbour opened the door and I also came

18 to the door. I saw three soldiers. And he said --

19 they said, "Who is the wife of --" and then they said

20 my husband's name. I said that it was me.

21 However, person number 61 opened the door of

22 my apartment, and one of these soldiers brought me into

23 my apartment and took me into a room. The other two

24 soldiers were probably in the other two rooms with the

25 refugees. The one who took me into the room said that

Page 3675

1 I had to come with them because I had a radio station

2 that was betraying them and that their men had been

3 killed on account of me. I told them that that was not

4 true, that the military police came and that I did not

5 have anything in my apartment. This soldier said to me

6 that I had to get ready to come with them and see their

7 men who had been killed.

8 When he told me that, another soldier walked

9 in and he went out, and he said that what could save me

10 would be if I gave him 10.000 Deutschemarks. I said

11 that I didn't have that kind of money and that I could

12 not give it to them and that I was not guilty of

13 anything.

14 I got ready, as they told me. I went out

15 into the hallway. The soldiers were waiting for me.

16 One of them grabbed me by the hand and took me

17 downstairs.

18 Q. And you told us earlier that you had a

19 12-year-old son. Was he with you at the time?

20 A. Yes, he was at the time, and I told

21 (redacted) -- I'm sorry. I told person number 61 to

22 take care of my son until I got back.

23 Q. How were you taken away?

24 A. The soldier held me by the hand and took me

25 downstairs, and I ran away from him across the yard,

Page 3676

1 because the SUP building is close to my apartment

2 building. I went -- I ran in front and came there, and

3 there was a guard there, 60 years old, and he hit me

4 with a rifle butt. The soldier caught up with me, took

5 me by the hand, and took me away.

6 Q. Why did you run to the guard at the SUP?

7 A. I thought that he would protect me from being

8 taken away.

9 Q. His response was to hit you with a rifle

10 butt? Did he say anything to you when he did that?

11 A. Well, he said, "Why are you running to me?"

12 Q. In any event, after you were hit with a rifle

13 butt, the soldier that you say had taken you away

14 caught up to you; is that correct?

15 A. Yes. He came in front of the SUP building.

16 He took me by the hand and took me away again.

17 Q. Where did he take you?

18 A. He took me to -- above my building there is a

19 house there. He had parked his car at the parking lot

20 there. It was a red Lada Caravan car.

21 Q. Now, you told us that three soldiers had come

22 to the apartment. One soldier took you away and chased

23 you and took you to this car. Did you see where the

24 other two soldiers were?

25 A. The other two soldiers remained, carrying

Page 3677

1 things out of my apartment.

2 Q. What kinds of things were being carried out

3 of your apartment?

4 A. A child's suitcase with clothes, stereo

5 equipment, a leather jacket, my fur coat, many things

6 he liked. Things like that.

7 Q. Did you see your son?

8 A. I saw my son, who was helping them carry

9 these things. When I saw him, I just gave him a sign

10 with my hand. My son understood that I was telling him

11 to run away, and he did.

12 Q. Now, prior to these soldiers coming with the

13 items they were taking from your apartment, had you

14 spent some time in this red Lada Caravan with the other

15 soldier that had taken you?

16 A. Yes. I sat in the car. This man who brought

17 me there was next to me, and we waited for a while

18 until they brought these things.

19 Q. Was there any conversation or anything going

20 on between you while you were waiting for the other

21 soldiers to arrive with the goods from your apartment?

22 A. No.

23 Q. When the other soldiers arrived with your

24 son, you gestured to your son and he understood and ran

25 away. What did the soldiers do?

Page 3678

1 A. They put the things that they had brought

2 into the car, and then they sat in the car themselves.

3 Q. Where was the soldier who had taken you away

4 and had led you to the vehicle? Was he in the front or

5 in the back?

6 A. In the back, next to me.

7 Q. Did the other soldiers get in the front of

8 this vehicle?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did you leave the parking lot?

11 A. Yes, we did, and we set off towards Brioni,

12 towards Velecevo.

13 Q. So that's leaving the SUP parking lot and

14 heading through Foca town towards Velecevo; is that

15 correct?

16 A. Correct.

17 Q. And as you're leaving Foca, did you get all

18 the way to Brioni or did you stop somewhere?

19 A. No, we did not arrive at Brioni. As soon as

20 we passed Aladza towards Brioni, on the right-hand side

21 there is a place where people go during the summer to

22 wash their cars and to get some sun and things like

23 that, so we turned right where there is this small

24 forest.

25 Q. And what happened when you got there?

Page 3679

1 A. When we got there, the following happened: A

2 soldier took me out. The others got out as well. And

3 they said, "What are we going to do?" One took out a

4 knife and said he would kill me if I didn't tell the

5 truth, how many marks I had, how many dinars I had, and

6 how much gold I had.

7 Q. Which of the three soldiers was it that was

8 asking you about your money?

9 A. I don't know exactly which one it was. Later

10 on, when I told him that I did not know how many marks

11 I had, that I was not very good at this, he said that

12 he knew me very well, who I was and what I did, that

13 his father was friends with my husband, and he said

14 that he had come to my shop himself and that he knew

15 everything that I had. He said that he was the son of

16 Leksa Kunarac.

17 Q. Did you tell him what you had at that point?

18 A. Of course I did. I was frightened. I said I

19 would give everything that I had to them, just don't

20 let them touch me.

21 Q. Were any threats made to you during this

22 questioning about how much you had?

23 A. They threatened me. They said that if I did

24 not tell the truth, that they would kill my son and

25 they would kill me too, if I did not tell the truth.

Page 3680

1 They asked me how many dinars I had. I said that I had

2 100.000 dinars. He said, "Where was it?" And he put

3 it into -- he got out my wallet. And the one who said

4 that he was Leksa's son said that had I lied, he would

5 have cut my head off.

6 Q. You told us earlier that one of the soldiers

7 had a knife. Was that knife displayed throughout this

8 questioning process?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Could you describe for us the man that told

11 you that he knew you and that his father knew your

12 husband; could you describe that person for us?

13 A. Well, I can. He had curly hair, lots of

14 hair, a rough face, medium-sized, a bit taller.

15 Q. Did you find out from some source what that

16 person's name was?

17 A. I found out when I returned. My friend,

18 Witness 61 -- Person 61, said that she talked to a

19 Serb, a man who protected us, and said that his name

20 was Zaga Kunarac.

21 Q. After they removed -- were there 100.000

22 dinars in your wallet, as you said there would be?

23 A. Yes, exactly.

24 Q. After this individual that you later found

25 out his name was Zaga removed the money from your

Page 3681

1 wallet, what happened next?

2 A. He put the wallet into his pocket and said to

3 me that I should undress, that he wanted to fuck me.

4 He put my hand on his penis. He hadn't taken off his

5 trousers yet. Later, he took off his trousers, and

6 again he grabbed my hand and he wanted me to touch his

7 penis. I did that. I trembled. He said that I had to

8 enjoy what he was about to do and that I had to

9 wriggle. When he saw that I was shaking, he said, "Why

10 are you shaking, Bula? You are supposed to enjoy being

11 fucked by a Serb." I did that, I undressed.

12 Q. What then?

13 A. I undressed. He also undressed, he took off

14 his clothes. A soldier took out a blanket out of the

15 car. It was a few metres from the car, the blanket.

16 Zaga ordered me to undress and lie down. I laid down,

17 and then he put his penis into my vagina.

18 Q. What were you doing at the time?

19 A. At the time, I put my hands on my eyes. And

20 he told me that I had to look a Serb in the eyes while

21 he was fucking me.

22 Q. How did you feel about what was happening to

23 you?

24 A. Awful, awful. I was trembling, I was

25 frightened, and I was afraid the most for my son. And

Page 3682

1 I was afraid for myself. I was afraid of being

2 slaughtered.

3 Q. Where were the other soldiers while you were

4 being raped?

5 A. The other soldiers -- the other soldiers

6 stood by the car and laughed. While Zaga was doing

7 this, he was telling them to be patient, that their

8 turn would come too.

9 Q. How long did this incident last with Zaga?

10 A. I think not long. I don't remember exactly.

11 I was so confused, believe me, I couldn't measure the

12 time.

13 Q. What did he do when he was finished?

14 A. Zaga got up and said that it was the next

15 one's turn. He wiped his penis and put on his clothes,

16 his trousers, and walked towards the car.

17 Q. Did the next soldier take his turn?

18 A. Yes, the next soldier came. Just as he did,

19 he undressed also, he took off his trousers. He made

20 me do a blow job on his penis a bit, and I was afraid.

21 And he said that I should be pleased, that I should see

22 how a Serb fucked better than a Muslim did.

23 Q. And after you were asked to perform fellatio,

24 did he change the manner of sexual assault upon you?

25 A. Yes. I lay down. He put his penis into my

Page 3683

1 vagina, and that's how he finished.

2 Q. What happened next?

3 A. The following happened: While this other one

4 was doing what he was doing, he -- Zaga was saying that

5 I would have a son and that I would not know whose it

6 was, but the most important thing was that it would be

7 a Serb child. When this one finished, then the other

8 one came.

9 Q. And by "the other one", you're talking about

10 the third soldier?

11 A. Right.

12 Q. Did he also rape you?

13 A. Yes. He raped me almost in the same way as

14 they had done. They just told me -- he just said to me

15 to lie down, and he put my legs up.

16 Q. Now, you told us earlier that you were

17 concerned for your son. Can you explain that for us?

18 A. I was concerned because Zaga said to me that

19 if I did not tell the entire truth when we were over,

20 that he would bring my son also, that he would slit his

21 throat, and that he would make me drink his blood.

22 Q. When the three soldiers were finished with

23 you, what happened next?

24 A. What happened then was that we got into the

25 car and returned to my apartment.

Page 3684

1 Q. Just before I leave the area of the sexual

2 assaults that you just told us about, do you know

3 whether -- was this on the banks of a river, this

4 location?

5 A. On the banks of the Cehotina.

6 Q. You were taken back to your flat, were you?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Where did they go first?

9 A. I went to the room where my gold was and

10 where my son's trousers were and into which I had sewn

11 my money. I gave Zaga all my gold and also these

12 trousers.

13 Q. Before I ask you to give us some details

14 about what happened next, I want to return to the

15 incident at the banks of the Cehotina River.

16 I know you've told us how you felt, but --

17 and this may seem like a strange question, but I have

18 to ask it. Did you submit yourself to them willingly?

19 A. Oh, no, no way. God.

20 Q. Did you feel you had any control at all over

21 what was happening to you?

22 A. I did not. I was so afraid, my mouth was

23 going dry and I had lost all my strength. I was in an

24 awful state.

25 Q. Thank you, and I'm sorry to have interrupted

Page 3685

1 you. You were telling us that you got back to your

2 apartment, and you were about to tell us something

3 about your son's trousers. Can you elaborate on that,

4 please? What was that all about?

5 A. Well, I had sewn 800 deutschemarks and about

6 two to three hundred dollars into my son's trousers.

7 If we were to part, that he could give this to Person

8 61 if she were to be taking care of him. Zaga was

9 searching for the money, and the trousers were ripped

10 open.

11 Q. Who ripped open the trousers?

12 A. Zaga.

13 Q. Did you tell him that you had sewn the money

14 into the trousers?

15 A. That's correct; I told him.

16 Q. And did he remove the money?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did he take anything else?

19 A. He took all the jewellery I had. It was a

20 chain with a crescent and star, and many rings, and

21 then he went and took 61's jewellery and money. And

22 from all the other refugees, he collected all their

23 jewellery.

24 Q. Did they finally leave?

25 A. Yes, they did. They didn't stay long. When

Page 3686

1 Zaga went off and he said I could make myself some

2 coffee, I was very happy, because I knew that I would

3 not be taken away again, me or my son.

4 Q. Was your son back at the apartment when you

5 were returned to the apartment or was your son still

6 away?

7 A. No. He was back. My son went back. And

8 when I came back, he ran out and hid again.

9 Q. Do you know approximately what time of the

10 day that they left?

11 A. Well, I don't know exactly. I think it was

12 about 2.00, 3.00; after midnight. I'm not sure. I

13 didn't look at the time. I was so confused.

14 Q. Now, this person that you've been talking

15 about, the man that you described and the man that you

16 say was told to you was by the name of Zaga, do you

17 think you would recognise this individual if you were

18 to see him again?

19 A. I think I would, but I'm not sure, because I

20 only saw him once, on that occasion.

21 Q. Let me ask you some questions about the

22 circumstances under which you saw him. First of all,

23 when the individual came to your apartment, was there

24 electricity on in your apartment? Was there light?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3687

1 Q. And when he first came to your apartment, you

2 saw him under normal lighted conditions; is that

3 correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. When you ran to the SUP building and then

6 went to the car, this individual sat beside you?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. It was midnight, I understand, or

9 thereabouts; it was late in the evening, so I take it

10 it was dark outside?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Was there any lighting on or any lighting

13 from street lamps or interior car lights or anything

14 like that?

15 A. There was a light in front of the SUP

16 building. When I was running there, there was a light

17 on there.

18 Q. And were you able to see the man who was

19 sitting beside you, the soldier that had taken you

20 downstairs?

21 A. Yes, I saw him, but it was a long time ago,

22 so maybe I won't recognise him, but maybe I will.

23 Q. How about on the banks of the Cehotina

24 River? Were the car lights left on at all?

25 A. No.

Page 3688

1 Q. When you got back to your apartment, did you

2 again see him under lighted conditions?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. I'd invite you now to look around the

5 courtroom, and if you see the person that you refer to

6 as Zaga, would you tell us, please.

7 MR. RYNEVELD: I see my friend on his feet.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Prodanovic.

9 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

10 we object to the manner of identification, because on

11 the 9th of April, 1998, the witness was shown a panel

12 of photographs and she was not sure she could recognise

13 the accused Kunarac, in 1998, when her memory was

14 fresher. And there are reports from this trial, both

15 in images and sound, so the way in which this witness

16 would recognise the accused would bring into doubt

17 whether it was, in fact, the accused Kunarac she saw.

18 So we are not saying that all this did not

19 happen to this witness, we are not denying it, but we

20 are here to determine whether Kunarac was present

21 there, especially since witnesses will be heard who

22 will provide an alibi for this time and for Kunarac.

23 And if you will allow me to make one more

24 point. Witness statements from this trial are being

25 published in the press, and everything that every

Page 3689

1 witness said is literally interpreted, in the

2 Federation, in the Republika Srpska, everywhere. We

3 have copies of these newspapers, if the Trial Chamber

4 is interested, and we are concerned that the regularity

5 of these proceedings is threatened in some way because

6 every witness knows what other witnesses have said.

7 [Trial Chamber deliberates]

8 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Prodanovic, you've put two

9 matters forward. One is, as I understand it, that the

10 weight of the evidence will be affected by these

11 various circumstances to which you refer, and the

12 second is that you are raising an issue of alibi. Is

13 that so?

14 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

15 Honour.

16 JUDGE HUNT: The first, if I may say so, goes

17 simply to the weight of the evidence to be given,

18 provided that it is given.

19 The second one concerns me somewhat. You

20 have never given any notice of alibi. If you are going

21 to raise an alibi, you should have given the notice in

22 accordance with the Rules.

23 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

24 we have given notice, and Prosecution witnesses and our

25 witnesses were questioned about this by the Tribunal

Page 3690

1 investigators in Sarajevo.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Whereabouts is your notice of

3 alibi in accordance with the Rules?

4 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] I cannot say

5 where it is at this moment, because I did not expect

6 this development. But with respect to our alibi, we

7 have informed the Prosecution, and they came to

8 Sarajevo about six months ago and they interviewed

9 witnesses, the witnesses that we mentioned, as to the

10 circumstances and the time they would testify about and

11 the whereabouts of the accused at that time. And the

12 statements were taken for this critical period, and the

13 Prosecution has these statements.

14 JUDGE HUNT: I'll ask the Prosecution about

15 that in a moment. But in relation to your complaints

16 that there are statements being published in the media,

17 if you want to rely upon that, that's up to you to

18 establish, either through cross-examination of this

19 witness or production of the evidence itself. So far

20 as I am concerned myself, the objection would have to

21 be overruled on the basis simply that it goes to the

22 weight, and not to the admissibility of the evidence.

23 Mr. Ryneveld, has there been a notice of

24 alibi filed?

25 MR. RYNEVELD: My understanding, Your Honour,

Page 3691

1 is that there is no formal notice of alibi, but I do

2 understand that they have provided us with a list of

3 names of witnesses and time periods when they

4 anticipate that they will be able to, as it were,

5 provide alibi-type evidence for periods of time during

6 Mr. Kunarac's -- for times relevant to some of the

7 counts in these proceedings.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Is that some sort of document

9 that has been given to you?

10 MR. RYNEVELD: I believe we have a copy of

11 a -- yes, we have received some document. I'll just

12 check with the case manager. But I don't know if it

13 was ever filed with the Court.

14 JUDGE HUNT: Well, if it has, it has not

15 reached us.

16 MR. RYNEVELD: I'm reminded that it was a

17 letter, in fact.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Well, it might be a good idea if

19 somebody could produce a copy of that letter so we've

20 got it on the file.

21 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. We're looking for

22 that now.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Otherwise the

24 examination-in-chief can continue. We've already

25 decided that on the issue of identification, it's a

Page 3692

1 matter of weight to be attached to the evidence.

2 Yes, Mr. Prodanovic.

3 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] If you will

4 allow me, Your Honour, as to the circumstances of

5 alibi, the Defence witnesses were checked by the

6 Prosecution, and next week a witness will testify who

7 will confirm whether the accused was in a quite

8 different place at the relevant time. So this has been

9 also checked by Prosecution witnesses who will testify

10 here.

11 JUDGE HUNT: Nevertheless, the Rules require

12 you to file a notice. We have to know what the issues

13 are too, and it's not sufficient simply to notify the

14 Prosecution. Now, if you've sent them a letter and

15 you're prepared to rely upon that letter as complying

16 with the notice, then that letter should be filed.

17 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

18 at the Status Conference we put forward this matter and

19 discussed it. I cannot tell you now because I don't

20 know it by heart, because we did not expect to be asked

21 this. But I can bring this document.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.

23 MR. RYNEVELD: If I may be of some

24 assistance, our case manager has, in fact, found a copy

25 of a letter, attention to Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, dated the

Page 3693

1 28th of November, 1999. It's a two-page letter, and it

2 does refer to Rule 67(A)(ii)(a) and does outline the

3 time periods and potential Defence witnesses that will

4 be testifying. I was not aware that this had not been

5 filed with the Court, but I can certainly provide a

6 copy of this.

7 I might also indicate that our understanding

8 is that in the Defence pre-trial brief, reference is

9 made at page 11, paragraph N of their pre-trial brief,

10 which talks about a partial Defence alibi on the 2nd of

11 August and the period between July 7th and July 21st.


13 JUDGE HUNT: Did you say "page 11"?

14 MR. RYNEVELD: Well, it's Registry page

15 3.771, but actual page 11 of the pre-trial brief if you

16 start numbering page 1. That is the paragraph N that

17 makes reference to it. But I do have a copy of the

18 letter that was provided to the Prosecution, which we

19 can certainly have copied during the break and provide

20 to the Chamber.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 JUDGE MUMBA: From the understanding of the

24 Trial Chamber, this is a matter of partial alibi, and

25 it is up to the Defence to produce evidence during

Page 3694

1 their time to prove this. In the meantime, the

2 cross-examination [sic] goes on like we ruled earlier,

3 that the identification evidence -- the issue is how

4 much weight the Trial Chamber should attach to that.

5 I'm sorry, yes, the examination-in-chief can

6 continue.

7 MR. RYNEVELD: I heard what you meant. Thank

8 you.

9 Q. Witness, just before we attended to some

10 legal matters, I had asked you the question as to

11 whether or not you thought you might be able to

12 recognise that individual that you've been talking

13 about, this Zaga, if you were to see him again. I'm

14 inviting you now to look around the courtroom, and if

15 that individual is present in this courtroom, would you

16 tell us that and, if so, where he is located?

17 A. The middle one between the two policemen

18 [indicates].

19 Q. Now, when you say "middle", you're pointing

20 now to the back wall underneath the glass. There are

21 six individuals. Starting from the left, can you tell

22 us -- there's a policeman and then there are some

23 further individuals. Can you count from the policeman

24 on the left and tell us what position, from left to

25 right, what position is that person in that you refer

Page 3695

1 to as Zaga?

2 A. The fourth.

3 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us what he's

4 wearing?

5 A. He's wearing a tie, a shirt and a suit, and

6 earphones. And he's typing like this [indicates].

7 Q. So it's the man who is typing on a keyboard?

8 JUDGE MUMBA: He's the fourth from the left,

9 according to the witness.

10 MR. RYNEVELD: Perhaps I should establish

11 which is her left.

12 Q. Witness, are you identifying the person that

13 was typing?

14 A. I think that's Zaga. I don't know, but I

15 think it is.

16 Q. For further clarification, which is your left

17 side?

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Can the witness stand up as she

19 did before, please, so we get all of this?


21 Q. Would you stand up, please, and face the

22 wall. Tell us -- first of all, could you hold out your

23 left hand?

24 A. [Witness complies]

25 Q. I see. So holding that hand out, it's the

Page 3696

1 person -- oh, now you're holding the other hand.

2 A. This is my left hand [indicates].

3 Q. Now, given that that is your left hand, would

4 you tell us, going from your left to the right, in what

5 position the person is seated?

6 A. He's the one sitting between the two

7 policemen, the second man from the left side.

8 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. Just for the

9 record, the only individual seated between two

10 policemen is the accused Kunarac. The other two

11 individuals are seated together. They are not between

12 policemen.


14 MR. RYNEVELD: And I would ask that the

15 record show that the witness has identified the accused

16 in these proceedings, Dragoljub Kunarac.



19 Q. Now, Witness, did you complain to the police

20 about this incident that happened to you at the banks

21 of the Cehotina River?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Is there any particular reason why you did

24 not do that?

25 A. Because I didn't dare. I was afraid, because

Page 3697

1 he had threatened me. Zaga had threatened to kill me

2 if I told anyone about it.

3 Q. While you had dealings with these three

4 soldiers, including Zaga, could you tell whether any

5 one of them appeared to be in charge, and if so, what

6 made you believe that?

7 A. I think I didn't -- they just had different

8 accents, but they behaved in the same way.

9 Q. Did any one of them appear to be in charge?

10 A. I don't know. They all looked the same to

11 me. They didn't give each other orders.

12 Q. I'd like you now to turn your mind to the

13 period when you were still at your apartment. You've

14 indicated that you could see the Partizan Sports Hall

15 from your apartment and from your apartment building;

16 is that correct?

17 A. That's correct.

18 Q. Did you ever look at the Partizan Sports Hall

19 from your apartment and see what was going on?

20 A. Yes. I looked through the window from which

21 you could see Partizan well. We watched cars arriving,

22 and there were women and children detained in

23 Partizan. Soldiers used to come and take them away.

24 One evening, I saw a van arrive, and it was filled with

25 women and driven off.

Page 3698

1 Q. Could you hear any sounds coming from

2 Partizan Sports Hall?

3 A. I did. I heard weeping and the cries, but I

4 couldn't recognise the persons because it was some

5 distance from my flat.

6 Q. Were you able to recognise any of the women

7 or girls or of the men who came for them?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Did you recognise any of the vehicles?

10 A. Well, I'd say there was a red Lada Caravan

11 and there were various other cars, but I don't know who

12 drove them or who came in them.

13 Q. Now, Witness, you say that you left on the

14 13th of August, 1992; is that correct?

15 A. That's correct.

16 Q. And did you leave Foca via a permit? Were

17 you given a permit to leave or did you need a permit?

18 A. Yes. We got a permit from the SUP. They

19 organised our departure from Foca.

20 Q. And you eventually left on buses, and you

21 were taken outside of Bosnia; is that correct?

22 A. Yes, that's correct.

23 Q. Now, Witness, just a couple more questions.

24 You gave a statement to investigators from

25 the Tribunal; is that correct?

Page 3699

1 A. That's correct.

2 Q. And that was in 1998?

3 A. That's correct.

4 Q. And at that time, you were in a foreign

5 country?

6 A. That's correct.

7 Q. Were you also asked to look at a number of

8 photographs, a series of 12 photographs?

9 A. Yes, I looked. I don't know whether I

10 recognised the person. I looked at it. They didn't

11 tell me anything.

12 Q. Were you asked to look at a series of

13 photographs and see if you recognised any individual in

14 those photographs?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. These photographs that you were shown, were

17 they original photographs, or were they in colour, or

18 were they photocopies, were they copies of photographs?

19 A. They were photocopies, I think.

20 Q. And at the time, were you able to pick

21 someone out?

22 A. I was sure I had recognised the person. I

23 have just heard that I didn't recognise him, but I

24 don't know.

25 Q. When you looked at the photographs, was there

Page 3700

1 more than one person that you looked at?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Were you able to definitely say which of the

4 two photographs that you looked at was the accused?

5 A. Zaga.

6 Q. Is there a difference to you between looking

7 at copies of photographs and looking at a person in

8 real life?

9 A. Of course, of course. It's much easier to

10 recognise a person in real life.

11 Q. Can you tell us why it's easier to pick out a

12 person in real life than it is by looking at a series

13 of photographs or copies of photographs?

14 A. Well, because that person is right in front

15 of me and I can see him very clearly; his face, his

16 figure, everything.

17 MR. RYNEVELD: I note the time. I understand

18 that we're not done with this witness. Those -- I'll

19 have to check with my colleagues, but subject to what

20 may occur during the break, I may have a few more

21 questions of the witness or it may be that we will not,

22 if that's okay with the Court. That's my understanding

23 of the proposal. Or did you want the cross-examination

24 to take place before we have the conference?

25 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no. Of course, we did say

Page 3701

1 that during the break time, the Prosecution and the

2 witness and Mr. Kolesar can have a conference. If the

3 Prosecution finds it relevant to go ahead with that,

4 they can go ahead with that.

5 The reason we want Mr. Kolesar to attend is

6 to make sure that he's a witness to everything that

7 goes on, in view of our ruling that the Prosecution can

8 only deal with the witness, after the solemn

9 declaration, with the permission of the Trial Chamber,

10 and also, of course, for him to deal with any matters

11 that are relevant to the defence of his client.

12 So if I may say so, the examination-in-chief

13 is not over. We will continue this afternoon at 1430

14 hours, with the Prosecution, of course, being able then

15 to make a decision as to whether or not to continue,

16 and, if so, on what issues are remaining. And

17 thereafter, cross-examination will be proceeded with.

18 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you for the

19 clarification.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We will break for lunch

21 until 1430 hours this afternoon.

22 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.




Page 3702

1 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.

3 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honours. Just

4 before I start, I should indicate that, as promised,

5 you should have before you the copy of the letter to

6 which reference was made, which was given to the

7 Prosecution, setting out, I believe, the matters that

8 Mr. Prodanovic raised.


10 MR. RYNEVELD: And we've produced that.

11 Secondly, if I might, before I continue with

12 this witness, it occurred to me during the break that

13 for the purposes of the record, I would like to put on

14 the record some of the things that transpired during

15 the identification process of Mr. Kunarac. For one

16 thing, I would like the record to reflect that when the

17 witness was asked which was her left hand, she in fact

18 originally raised her right hand and then changed it to

19 her left. I'd like the record to reflect that.


21 MR. RYNEVELD: And secondly, that from the

22 witness's seat, the only typewriter or laptop in view

23 was -- is, in fact, the one in front of Mr. Kunarac,

24 and that he was, in fact, typing on a keyboard at the

25 time she gave that evidence. I'd like the record to

Page 3703

1 reflect that as well.


3 MR. RYNEVELD: We could see it, but the

4 record won't show it.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. It's okay to have it on

6 record.

7 MR. RYNEVELD: The third thing I want to

8 bring to the Court's attention is that during the break

9 Mr. Kolesar and other Defence counsel and I explored

10 the issue, and I do not intend to ask any further

11 questions relating to that other line of questions

12 concerning Mr. Kovac. I will abandon that area of

13 examination, having received the answer that we didn't

14 know what it would be.


16 MR. RYNEVELD: And I do propose, however, to

17 ask a couple more questions in a different area. And

18 before doing that, I would like to tender, as Exhibit

19 222, with my friends' consent, the document

20 accompanying a photo board, describing the process that

21 was involved with this particular witness.

22 The other option, of course, is that I recall

23 Mr. Brett Simpson to give evidence to this effect, but

24 I do believe that this letter of explanation actually

25 identifies the transaction that took place, and we are

Page 3704

1 content to rely on that. And if my friends wish to

2 cross-examine on it, of course they're welcome, but I

3 think it just obviates the need to call a further

4 witness. It shows the location of the individuals and

5 quality of the photocopies that were shown.

6 If I may then continue, I'd like to just

7 examine the witness in one further area.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: If you may pause for the

9 Defence counsels, please, to respond.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Did you say that that

11 demonstrates the quality of the photographs that were

12 shown? I mean, they're very difficult to follow. We

13 have a photostat of a photostat.

14 MR. RYNEVELD: True.

15 JUDGE HUNT: May we assume they're better

16 than that?

17 MR. RYNEVELD: The only copy I've ever been

18 working with is no better in quality than the one that

19 the Court has. That's been the problem.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Prodanovic, on the

21 production of this document, any submission?

22 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

23 when Mr. Simpson was heard here, I had the impression

24 that colour photographs were being shown, because there

25 was a series of colour photographs. That is how

Page 3705

1 identification is supposed to take place. We do not

2 have a position on this and we do not object to

3 introducing this.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

5 MR. RYNEVELD: I do not wish to misrepresent

6 in any way what the witness was actually shown. The

7 evidence I called from Brett Simpson was whether or not

8 he conducted a photo board procedure with various

9 witnesses, and he indicated he had. This witness has

10 testified that she saw black and whites, copies. I

11 will attempt to find out what the witness was actually

12 shown, but I can tell the Court that I've been working

13 with copies. This basically outlines the process, and

14 it at least sheds some light as to what the witness

15 said when she was shown whatever it was that she was

16 shown.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar, any objection?

18 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I

19 have no objections. However, since you have asked me

20 to take the floor, I would like to clarify the

21 following situation.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Rather, to deal with whether

23 or not you have an objection to this document being

24 produced into evidence. However, since you are already

25 on your feet, you may proceed.

Page 3706

1 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I said already

2 that I do not object to having this introduced because

3 it does not relate to the accused Kovac anyway.

4 Secondly, since my learned colleague from the

5 Prosecution said that he would not put any questions in

6 the area to which I objected, I'm just asking whether

7 this area will remain in the transcript or will this

8 section be deleted from the transcript?

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar, since it's been a

11 while, can you specify which part of the transcript

12 must be struck out? If I recall, there was a

13 repetition, actually, of some evidence touching on

14 Kovac, so can you please specify?

15 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

16 Your Honours, everything that is related to questions

17 related to Kovac, nicknamed Kreza.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Ryneveld.

19 MR. RYNEVELD: With respect, I'm not sure

20 why -- under what Rule or under what persuasive

21 authority this information should be redacted from the

22 transcript. If it relates to Kreza Kovac, surely I

23 don't see what my friend's objection could be to it

24 remaining.

25 JUDGE HUNT: If you want to rely upon it in

Page 3707

1 some way, to what particular paragraph of the

2 indictment does it relate? If it doesn't relate to

3 Mr. Kovac, the one who is on trial here, it can only go

4 under some general allegation of sexual assault. If

5 you identify the precise part of the indictment under

6 which you say it becomes admissible not against

7 Mr. Kovac here, you better do so, hadn't you?

8 MR. RYNEVELD: Well, with respect, Your

9 Honour, I believe it does show part of the pattern of

10 the general background of what was happening to women

11 in Foca. Whether or not it was these accused or not

12 these accused, we've established that it was at least

13 someone wearing a police uniform in some form of

14 authority, and we would respectfully submit that this

15 is still relevant to show what was going on in Foca to

16 civilians as part of the general allegation that the

17 civilian population were being harassed in this way.

18 JUDGE HUNT: But in fairness, it either has

19 to be conceded that it is not the Prosecution case that

20 it was this Mr. Kovac or it should be struck out. You

21 can't have it both ways, Mr. Ryneveld.

22 MR. RYNEVELD: I am not in a position to

23 allege that it is the Kovac before the Court today that

24 is being referred to. The Kovac in the indictment is

25 Klanfa or Radomir Kovac, whereas this particular

Page 3708

1 accused is known as Krezo.

2 JUDGE HUNT: That's still not a concession.

3 It is no part of the Prosecution case that it was this

4 Mr. Kovac. I think that has to be conceded.

5 MR. RYNEVELD: I'm not in a position to prove

6 that it is this Mr. Kovac and --

7 JUDGE HUNT: I think you have to concede it

8 is no part of the Prosecution case in this trial that

9 it is this Mr. Kovac. Now, if you would make that

10 concession -- you're not conceding that he had done

11 nothing. It is no part of the Prosecution case in this

12 trial that it is this Mr. Kovac.

13 MR. RYNEVELD: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I'm

14 trying to think of the ramifications of such a

15 confession which is -- or concession that is being --

16 haven't I said basically exactly the same thing?

17 JUDGE HUNT: No, you haven't, and the fact

18 that you're not prepared to make this concession, which

19 is in precise terms, it is no part of the Prosecution

20 case in this trial that that was a reference to this

21 Mr. Kovac, it's a very simple statement.

22 MR. RYNEVELD: Now I understand. I'm

23 prepared to make that concession.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

25 JUDGE HUNT: That protects you entirely, Mr.

Page 3709

1 Kolesar, doesn't it?

2 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I

3 do thank you, and I'm sure that the trial will be a

4 fair one.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Jovanovic, on the

6 production of the photo and the statement, any

7 objection?

8 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your

9 Honour, we have no objections.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well. Can we have the

11 formal number, please.

12 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The

13 photographs from the 9th of April, 1998, will be Number

14 222. It will be a Prosecution exhibit and will be

15 tendered under seal.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Mr. Ryneveld,

17 please proceed.

18 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Q. Now, Witness, I'd like you to turn back to

20 the issue of when the items were taken from your

21 apartment by Zaga and his two accompanying soldiers.

22 Prior to their visit, did you own

23 considerable property and did you have jewellery and

24 money?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3710

1 Q. Was it, in fact, to protect your property

2 that you returned from Gorazde to get back to Foca?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What effect did the robbery of your goods,

5 jewellery, money have upon you for your future at that

6 point?

7 A. Well, I remained without a thing. I came to

8 Montenegro and others helped me. That's how I was

9 saved.

10 Q. Without your belongings, without your money,

11 without your jewellery, did you have any means to

12 purchase your way out or to finance your activities

13 once you escaped from Bosnia?

14 A. I had about 200 deutschemark in the jeans

15 that I wore. I had sewn them into the jeans.

16 Q. Is that all that you had left?

17 A. All.

18 Q. Are you able to estimate the kind of value of

19 goods, money, and jewellery that were stolen from you,

20 all in all?

21 A. Well, I could not mention the value of the

22 property, the jewellery. The jewellery included

23 various -- there were chains, there were rings. And

24 then there were also other valuables like leather

25 jackets, fur coats, photo camera, in addition to all

Page 3711

1 the money I mentioned, that is to say, the

2 deutschemarks and the dollars I mentioned before. So

3 there were lots of valuables.

4 Q. So is it fair to say from a person who had

5 considerable assets, you were suddenly relatively

6 destitute, except from the 200 deutschemarks you had

7 left?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What effect did that have on your ability to

10 make your way once you left Bosnia?

11 A. Life was hard. I had to work as a waitress

12 in Montenegro so that I could make some money in order

13 to go further.

14 MR. RYNEVELD: May I just consult with my

15 colleagues? I believe I'm near the end.


17 [Prosecution confers]


19 Q. Did you leave Foca voluntarily?

20 A. I did not leave voluntarily, but I could not

21 wait to leave Foca. I had great problems, and I had to

22 besiege people to help me get out. That is to say that

23 I left out of fear, if that's what you call

24 "voluntarily".

25 Q. What effect did -- the robbery, the plunder,

Page 3712

1 and the rape upon you, what effect did those things

2 have upon your decision to leave?

3 A. Well, of course I was always afraid that I

4 would be slaughtered, both me and my child, and I

5 couldn't wait to get out of my town.

6 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Witness. I have no

7 further questions. Would you answer my learned

8 friends, please.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Cross-examination.

10 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

11 Your Honour.

12 Cross-examined by Mr. Prodanovic:

13 Q. Good day, Witness.

14 A. Good day.

15 Q. You described today the place where you

16 lived. Could you tell us on which floor you lived?

17 A. I can tell you that I lived on the third

18 floor. There was the store and then another floor, and

19 then I was above that; this other floor, that is.

20 Q. In addition to the apartment, did you perhaps

21 have a house?

22 A. No. There was an old house in front of my

23 shop, the old house.

24 Q. Did you own that house?

25 A. No. I had a weekend cottage across the Drina

Page 3713

1 River, if that's what you're asking me about.

2 Q. When did you build this weekend cottage?

3 A. I do not remember which year this was, but it

4 was built only recently.

5 Q. When this weekend cottage was built, was the

6 father of the accused Kunarac engaged?

7 A. Yes, yes. He did the woodwork for me for the

8 ceilings.

9 Q. So did you know the father of the accused

10 therefrom?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did you know where he lived?

13 A. Yes, I knew. In Cohodar Mahala.

14 Q. Did you ever go to his house?

15 A. Yes, I did, once.

16 Q. Did you know the car that he had?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Can you tell us, what did your apartment face

19 and what could you see from the terrace or the window

20 of your apartment?

21 A. I did not have a terrace at all. From my

22 kitchen window you could see Partizan, SUP, and from

23 the living-room you could see the municipal building,

24 the bank, et cetera.

25 Q. When the father of the accused helped in the

Page 3714

1 building of your house, did the accused help him in

2 this work?

3 A. I have no idea whatsoever, because I was not

4 there when this man, the accused, or the father, was

5 doing the woodwork. We just took the wooden boards to

6 him, but then he did it.

7 Q. Did you see the accused on that occasion?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Can you tell us what education you've had?

10 A. I only completed elementary school.

11 Q. What was your husband, by profession?

12 A. (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 Q. Can you tell us what the relations were like

15 between the Serbs and Muslims a few years prior to the

16 war?

17 A. My very own relations were very good.

18 Q. Were you the supporter or member of some

19 political party?

20 A. No.

21 Q. You said today that the shooting started on

22 the 7th of April, 1992. Can you tell us how this

23 happened?

24 A. Could you please repeat that question? What

25 was that?

Page 3715

1 Q. You said that the shooting started on the 7th

2 of April, 1992.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Can you tell us how this happened. What kind

5 of shooting was this?

6 A. Well, when the shooting would start, as far

7 as I could feel in my apartment, these were small

8 arms. The shooting started and I was surprised,

9 startled, afraid; that's it.

10 Q. You said that you were together in the

11 basement, Serbs and Muslims. Do you remember who

12 suggested that you go to the basement?

13 A. Well, no one suggested it. We all fled the

14 building, Serbs and Muslims, men and women.

15 Q. You said that during the following days, the

16 fighting intensified and that the shooting got worse

17 and worse. On which basis did you conclude this, when

18 you didn't leave the basement, that this fighting was

19 stronger?

20 A. Well, sir, of course I heard it, because

21 during the day I would go upstairs to my apartment. I

22 would hear shooting, especially in the evening. On one

23 occasion a shell was thrown right in front of our

24 building, and it fell just in front of the basement

25 that we were in.

Page 3716

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Pausing between the answers.

2 And also speak a bit slower, as the interpreters are

3 having to run, actually, to follow you.

4 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

5 Your Honour.

6 Q. Did you hear of anyone getting killed in all

7 this shooting during the first days?

8 A. Believe me, I didn't. I heard that someone

9 got killed in Ustikolina, one of our policemen. Seva

10 [phoen] was his name.

11 Q. Why did you leave Foca after seven days?

12 What was the motive for that?

13 A. I don't know exactly whether it was seven

14 days or not, but I did leave Foca, because I was afraid

15 and because my husband said -- in the morning when we

16 got out of the basement, he often went to the

17 apartment, and somebody called him up and told him that

18 he should leave Foca, that we were in danger.

19 Q. At the moment when you were leaving Foca, was

20 there any fighting then? Was there any shooting then?

21 A. No.

22 Q. What time did you leave Foca?

23 A. We left Foca early. I don't know exactly

24 when. I didn't look at my watch or anything. But we

25 got up real early so that the fighting and shooting

Page 3717

1 would not start.

2 Q. When you were getting out of Foca, did you go

3 through the Donje Polje neighbourhood?

4 A. No, I did not.

5 Q. Were there any barricades on the road?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Did you notice whether there was anyone else

8 moving through town?

9 A. I was not in town at all. You know full well

10 where my apartment is. I crossed the bridge and I went

11 down the Drina River.

12 Q. When did you return from Gorazde?

13 A. I think on the 23rd of April.

14 Q. Did you hear what was happening in Foca?

15 A. I heard about it, that Muslims were being

16 asked to return, those who had not committed any sins,

17 that they could continue their normal life there.

18 Q. Did the fighting stop after you came?

19 A. In town, yes.

20 Q. Did you return to your own apartment?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What condition was your apartment in? Was it

23 broken into?

24 A. No.

25 Q. You said that you heard Muslims being asked

Page 3718

1 to return. What radio station did you hear this on?

2 A. Well, this was Radio Foca. We turned on the

3 radio and we heard this being broadcast and I called a

4 friend of mine. I'm sure that you know her. And she

5 said that no one would touch us and that we could

6 return to Foca.

7 Q. You said, furthermore, that it was said that

8 Muslim women should not socialise, should not be

9 together and have coffee together.

10 A. Correct.

11 Q. During those days, were Serbs being killed?

12 A. I did not go to the front line, and I don't

13 know about that at all.

14 Q. I'm asking you about this because today you

15 said that there was some information going round, and

16 perhaps this was said for security reasons.

17 A. What was that? Say that again.

18 Q. Was this perhaps said for security reasons,

19 that you should not socialise?

20 A. No, that is not true. We would have been

21 safe, my friend 61 and I, if we were together in an

22 apartment. And she had also been offended a great deal

23 and told that she should not be with me.

24 Q. Nevertheless, your statement shows that you

25 did socialise, that you were together in apartments and

Page 3719

1 in the basement.

2 A. Exactly. There was no need for staying in a

3 basement later, but she went to the SUP and she asked

4 that she be allowed to remain with me.

5 Q. Did you talk to some people about the events

6 in Foca?

7 A. You mean in Foca, whether I talked about it

8 in Foca?

9 Q. Yes. I'm referring to your neighbours.

10 A. Well, yes, I did. Jela helped me. Jela

11 helped me get out of Foca and get saved. I often went

12 to the municipality, or rather she went to the

13 municipality to ask to organise these buses so that we

14 could get out.

15 Q. You said that in Foca you were from the 23rd

16 of April until the 13th of August, 1992.

17 A. Exactly.

18 Q. Can you tell us what life in Foca was like at

19 the time?

20 A. Well, it depends. I had a very bad life. I

21 had to hide, I had to run away. That's what it was

22 like. Of course, I did have food, because I had a lot

23 in my apartment. Other people know about that, people

24 who I gave it to. I had chocolate, I had other food,

25 and I had 300 kilograms of all that when the shooting

Page 3720

1 started.

2 Q. How many shops were open? Do you remember

3 that?

4 A. I remember that by the post office, the

5 butcher shop was open, and the Brena [phoen], I think,

6 something like that, because I did not go out very

7 much, so I don't really know.

8 Q. Was there electricity?

9 A. Sometimes there would be and sometimes there

10 would not be electricity.

11 Q. Could you go to the shops freely?

12 A. No, I couldn't do that. I put on black

13 clothes, as I have described, and no one stopped me or

14 harmed me when I went out.

15 Q. Do you remember whether there were supplies

16 in the shops?

17 A. I remember that there was enough meat at the

18 butcher's and that there was some food there. I don't

19 know exactly. I didn't need to buy that much.

20 Q. You said that your shop was looted. Had

21 other shops been looted as well?

22 A. I know about my shop, and most probably

23 others were looted too.

24 Q. Do you know whether soldiers came to other

25 tenants' apartments?

Page 3721

1 A. Yes, I know they came to my neighbours', they

2 came to my flat, and they came to another neighbour's

3 flat opposite from mine.

4 Q. What were they looking for when they came?

5 A. Well, they kept saying that we may be hiding

6 men or weapons, and I can say that sometimes they came

7 just to scare us.

8 Q. Did they take things away?

9 A. I have already described that. Whenever they

10 came to search the apartment, they made me make

11 coffee. My hands would tremble and they would laugh.

12 They asked me to serve them drinks and so on.

13 Q. During those visits did they beat you?

14 A. No.

15 Q. After your return from Gorazde, were you in

16 the flat on your own and did you continue living there?

17 A. I was not on my own. I continued living

18 there.

19 Q. When I finish my question, could you wait

20 because of the interpreters?

21 A. Yes, all right.

22 Q. You mentioned a Serb called Tadic. Who was

23 he, and did he live there before?

24 A. No, he didn't. I heard he was from Aladza

25 also, I think. He had a wife and a child, and he used

Page 3722

1 to come to my neighbour's flat. His name was Tadic --

2 I don't know his first name -- and he helped us quite a

3 lot.

4 Q. How did he help you?

5 A. Well, for example, when we -- when some other

6 Serbs came to our flats, he would tell them, "There are

7 no Muslim women up there." He would sit with us to

8 make sure no one killed us or took us away.

9 Q. Can you tell us when you were taken out of

10 your flat the first time?

11 A. The first time -- well, I had to flee many

12 times, but I was taken out I think the 15th of August.

13 No, I mean July, July, sometime around then.

14 Q. Can you tell us what time it was?

15 A. It was after midnight.

16 Q. Where were you when those three soldiers

17 came?

18 A. I was at my neighbour's, and Mr. Tadic was

19 there protecting us.

20 Q. Did Mr. Tadic react?

21 A. No. He told my friend, when she asked him,

22 that he didn't dare because he didn't dare oppose Zaga.

23 Q. Who was in that flat in which you were?

24 A. My friend?

25 Q. No. I mean the flat where you were.

Page 3723

1 A. Well, there was my friend and Tadic and I.

2 Q. When was the first time you heard the

3 nickname "Zaga"?

4 A. The first time I heard the nickname "Zaga", I

5 heard it when I came back and when my friend told me

6 that Tadic had told her that this was Zaga and he did

7 not dare oppose him to protect me.

8 Q. Did Zaga introduce himself to you?

9 A. No, he just said he knew me well, that he

10 used to come to my shop, that his father was on good

11 terms with my husband, and that he knew what I had.

12 Q. Can you describe the other two soldiers who

13 were there?

14 A. Well, I can't describe one, but the other one

15 was fair-haired, a bit plumper with a coarse face. I

16 can't really remember exactly because it was a long

17 time ago.

18 Q. Were they in uniform?

19 A. I don't know exactly.

20 Q. Did they wear any insignia?

21 A. I didn't look at that. It didn't occur to

22 me, because I was afraid. They started threatening me

23 as soon as they entered the flat.

24 Q. You said that one of them caught you by the

25 hand?

Page 3724

1 A. That's correct.

2 Q. What happened next?

3 A. He took me downstairs. He took me toward a

4 car. I tried to wrench my hand away, and then I ran

5 across the courtyard toward the SUP. He wanted to

6 shoot at me, but I paid no attention. I ran to the SUP

7 building, and then an elderly guard was there and he

8 hit me, and he said, "Why are you looking to me for

9 protection?"

10 Q. How many refugees were there in your flat?

11 A. Well, I would have to count.

12 Q. You don't have to.

13 A. Well, let's say around ten.

14 Q. Did they see that event?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Was the flat open? Was the door open when

17 all this was going on?

18 A. Well, the door wasn't open. When they

19 arrived, my friend opened the door because the name on

20 it was "Vukan Blagojevic". They rang both doors to

21 find out where I was, and my friend opened. And they

22 came in, and the door was closed as soon as they

23 entered.

24 Q. I didn't understand you well. When you were

25 taken from your neighbour's room, were you taken into

Page 3725

1 your room?

2 A. No, no, I wasn't taken to my neighbour's but

3 to my own flat.

4 Q. From your neighbour's flat?

5 A. Yes, exactly.

6 Q. So did you go into your flat?

7 A. Yes, I did.

8 Q. In what way did they ask you for 10.000

9 marks?

10 A. Well, one of the soldiers took me to a room

11 and said that some of their men had been killed and

12 that I had a radio station and I was passing on

13 information, and that was why they were killed and that

14 I had to go and see them. And then another soldier

15 came in and said he could save me if I gave him 10.000

16 German marks.

17 Q. Can you describe the soldier who asked you

18 for 10.000 marks?

19 A. No, I can't. I didn't pay attention to that,

20 I didn't pay any attention to which one it was and who

21 questioned me.

22 Q. Where did they take you after that?

23 A. After that, they took me to the bus station,

24 and then toward the health centre, and then toward the

25 village. You know very well where that is. Before

Page 3726

1 Velecevo, there is a turning towards the River

2 Cehotina.

3 Q. I apologise. I don't know.

4 A. I think you do.

5 Q. I don't know where they took you.

6 A. Well, I'm telling you now, it's where the

7 road is wider and where they used to wash their cars

8 and go sunbathing in the summer.

9 Q. Is that place lighted?

10 A. No.

11 Q. What was the visibility, because it was after

12 midnight?

13 A. Well, you could see. I saw them.

14 Q. Could you distinguish them?

15 A. Yes, I could.

16 Q. What time was it when you came to that place?

17 A. I don't know.

18 Q. How could you distinguish them?

19 A. Well, the one who took me by the hand and

20 from whom I ran to the SUP, he said he was Lekso's son

21 and that he knew me well.

22 Q. On that occasion, did they beat you?

23 A. No.

24 Q. You said in your statement, page 5,

25 paragraph 3: "They didn't question me for long because

Page 3727

1 I agreed to give them everything I had."

2 A. That's correct.

3 Q. "Zaga asked me how many dinars I had. I told

4 him that I had 100.000 dinars in my wallet. Then he

5 pulled out my wallet from his pocket and he said, 'Yes,

6 you are right, there is exactly 100.000 dinars.'"

7 Can you tell us when Zaga took your wallet

8 away?

9 A. I can't say, because I had gone out of the

10 room when I was changing, when I asked 61 to look after

11 my son in case anything happened to me.

12 Q. You couldn't see when he took your wallet?

13 A. No, no.

14 Q. Can you tell us, at that time what was the

15 value in German marks of those 100.000 dinars?

16 A. No, I can't. I don't know exactly. It kept

17 changing, the exchange rate.

18 Q. Could you tell us whether it was a lot of

19 money?

20 A. No, it wasn't a lot.

21 Q. How long did all this take, what happened on

22 the bank of the Cehotina?

23 A. I don't know exactly. I didn't look at my

24 watch. But I think it wasn't long. It was about an

25 hour and a half, but I don't know exactly.

Page 3728

1 Q. In your opinion, why did they take you out of

2 your flat?

3 A. In my opinion, in my opinion, well, they took

4 everything I had and they did whatever they wanted with

5 me.

6 Q. Did you talk about this event that allegedly

7 took place on the banks of the Cehotina to anyone on

8 your return?

9 A. No, I didn't.

10 Q. When you came back to your -- did you come

11 back to your flat?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And in your flat, did you find the same

14 people you had left when you went?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. How did Zaga know that there was money in

17 your son's trousers?

18 A. Because I told him.

19 Q. When did you tell him?

20 A. When he took me upstairs and when he said I

21 had to tell him how much money I had, I said I would

22 give him everything I had and begged him not to touch

23 me, and I told him that I had sewn money into my son's

24 trousers.

25 Q. What time was it when they left?

Page 3729

1 A. I don't remember that well either, but I

2 think it was after 2.00. I don't know exactly, because

3 I didn't look at my watch. I was so frightened, I was

4 in a terrible state.

5 Q. Do you remember in what year you made a

6 statement to the investigators from the Tribunal?

7 A. I think it was in 1998.

8 Q. Had the accused already given himself up

9 then?

10 A. I think not. I don't know.

11 Q. Was that in a foreign country?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Just before you made your statement and

14 immediately after you had made it, was that a time of

15 large-scale return to Bosnia and Herzegovina?

16 A. No, it wasn't.

17 Q. Were you promised any privileges for making a

18 statement?

19 A. No, because I had left Germany of my own

20 accord and nobody drove me out.

21 Q. Can you tell us whether a cousin of yours was

22 a witness at this Tribunal?

23 A. No.

24 Q. And my last question is: When all this was

25 taking place on the banks of the river, how were you

Page 3730

1 dressed? Were you wearing jeans or a skirt?

2 A. I was in jeans.

3 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Just a

4 moment, Your Honours, if you will allow me.


6 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Those were

7 all my questions.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar, any questions?

9 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

10 the Defence of Radomir Kovac has no questions, because

11 this witness did not testify to anything that my client

12 has been charged with.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

14 THE WITNESS: That's a pity.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Jovanovic, any questions?

16 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your

17 Honours. We have no questions for the witness.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Any re-examination?

19 MR. RYNEVELD: Nothing arising in

20 re-examination. Thank you, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you very much, Witness,

22 for giving evidence to the Tribunal. You are now

23 released.

24 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

25 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. While the witness

Page 3731

1 is being escorted out of the courtroom, and before the

2 next witness takes the stand, I believe my colleague

3 Mr. Mundis has an application to make.

4 [The witness withdrew]

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Mundis.

6 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, the Prosecution

7 originally did not ask for any protective measures for

8 Witness 61. However, over the weekend, while proofing

9 this witness, she requested both facial and voice

10 distortion as protective measures, and at this time the

11 Prosecution would respectfully request those protective

12 measures be granted to Witness 61.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Any objection, Mr. Prodanovic,

14 facial and voice distortion?

15 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your

16 Honour.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar?

18 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] No, Your

19 Honour.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Jovanovic?

21 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your

22 Honour.

23 [Trial Chamber deliberates]

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Very well. The

25 protective measures are granted, as requested.

Page 3732

1 While we are waiting for the other witness,

2 in connection with the protective -- the motion by the

3 Prosecution that Witness DB should give evidence in

4 closed session, the motion is granted, and Witness DB

5 will give evidence in closed session when the time

6 comes.

7 [The witness entered court]

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Good afternoon, Witness.

9 Please stand up and make the solemn declaration.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good

11 afternoon.

12 I solemnly declare that I will speak the

13 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you, and please sit

17 down.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Mundis, please.

19 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Your Honour. With

20 the assistance of the usher, I would ask that this

21 witness be shown Exhibit 223, which has been provided

22 to the Defence and to Chambers.


24 Examined by Mr. Mundis:

25 Q. Witness, I'd ask you to take a look at

Page 3733

1 Exhibit 223. Do you see your name on that document?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Next to your name do you see a number?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And is that number 61?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Throughout these proceedings you will be

8 referred to as Witness 61. Do you understand that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And underneath your name and the number 61,

11 do you see your birth date?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And is that your correct date of birth?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Under your name, number, and birth date,

16 there is another individual's name listed. Do you see

17 that name?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And next to that name do you see the number

20 183?

21 A. Yes, we see it.

22 Q. Throughout these proceedings, I would ask

23 that you refer to that person only by the number 183

24 rather than her name. Do you understand that?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3734

1 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, the Prosecution

2 would ask that Exhibit 223 be admitted into evidence

3 under seal.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have the formal

5 number, please.

6 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This will be

7 Exhibit 223, Prosecution Exhibit 223, under seal.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Please proceed.


10 Q. Witness 61, can you tell us, please, where

11 you were born.

12 A. I was born in the village of Jelec, in the

13 municipality of Foca.

14 Q. And did you grow up in the village of Jelec?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Were you later married?

17 A. I got married, yes.

18 Q. In what year did you get married?

19 A. On the 2nd of February, 1980.

20 Q. And after you were married, where did you

21 live?

22 A. I lived in Miljevina. Actually, in the

23 village of Rataja, which is a bit above Miljevina.

24 Q. Did you later move to the city of Foca?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3735

1 Q. And what part of the town of Foca did you

2 live in?

3 A. Cohodar Mahala.

4 Q. Without saying their names, Witness, do you

5 have any children?

6 A. I have two sons.

7 Q. Can you please describe for the Court the

8 ethnic background of the neighbourhood you lived in in

9 Foca.

10 A. Yes, I can. The majority population were

11 Serb, where I lived.

12 Q. Were there any other ethnic groups living in

13 the neighbourhood?

14 A. No. There was only us, the Muslims, and the

15 Serb population.

16 Q. And so your ethnicity is Muslim?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Do you recall when the war started in Foca?

19 A. On the 7th of April, 1992.

20 Q. And when the fighting broke out on that day,

21 what did you do?

22 A. Well, we were frightened, and we fled to the

23 basement.

24 Q. When you say "we," who are you referring to?

25 A. I'm saying people from the neighbourhood,

Page 3736

1 people who happened to be with me. That's who I'm

2 referring to.

3 Q. And approximately how long did you stay in

4 the basement?

5 A. We spent the night in the basement.

6 Q. And where did you go the following day?

7 A. In the morning when we got up, we went

8 towards Gorazde; that is to say, to Ustikolina.

9 Q. And where did you finally go in Ustikolina?

10 A. We took the car and we arrived at the

11 military barracks in Ustikolina.

12 Q. Are those barracks also known as the

13 Filipovici barracks?

14 A. Yes, the Filipovici barracks, yes.

15 Q. Approximately how long did you stay at the

16 Filipovici barracks?

17 A. That was about 20 to 23 days.

18 Q. Did there come a time, then, when you left

19 the Filipovici barracks?

20 A. Yes. Person 183 came by, and we returned to

21 Foca.

22 Q. Do you recall approximately what date it was

23 that you returned to Foca?

24 A. I think it was the 23rd of April.

25 Q. And when you returned to Foca, where exactly

Page 3737

1 did you go?

2 A. I was at person 183's place, at her

3 apartment.

4 Q. And what neighbourhood in Foca is that

5 apartment located?

6 A. Near the SUP and the municipality building.

7 Actually, it's closer to the SUP than to the

8 municipality building, but all of it is nearby.

9 Q. Could you see those buildings from the

10 apartment of Witness 183?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Do you happen to know approximately how many

13 Muslim families lived in the apartment building where

14 183 lived?

15 A. There were three entrances. Most of the

16 population living there where the witness was was

17 Muslim.

18 Q. Can you generally describe for the Court the

19 living conditions in the apartment of Witness 183?

20 A. As for the living conditions, it was normal,

21 like in all the other apartments. That's the way it

22 was at her apartment too.

23 Q. Did you ever hear, while you were staying at

24 183's apartment, did you ever hear any announcements

25 coming over loudspeakers out on the street?

Page 3738

1 A. Yes, yes, we heard it.

2 Q. Do you recall any of the things that were

3 said over the loudspeakers?

4 A. It was said that we Muslims should not gather

5 together and that things would not go well for us if we

6 were to be found together, that that was dangerous.

7 Q. After you arrived at the apartment of Witness

8 183, did you ever visit your old house in Foca?

9 A. Yes, I did.

10 Q. Can you describe for the Court the condition

11 of your house in Foca?

12 A. My house was in very bad shape. Everything

13 was upside down. They were probably looking for

14 weapons.

15 Q. When you say "they", who are you referring

16 to?

17 A. Well, the soldiers that were in Foca.

18 Q. Turning your attention back now to the

19 apartment of Witness 183, did there ever come a time

20 when soldiers or military police came to the apartment?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Do you recall the approximate date of the

23 first time these soldiers or military police came to

24 the apartment?

25 A. Yes. That was a short while after we

Page 3739

1 returned.

2 Q. Did the police or soldiers come more than

3 once?

4 A. They came all the time until we were in Foca.

5 Q. Do you recall how frequently they came?

6 A. I cannot remember how many times, but all the

7 time while we were there, Person 183 and I, they came

8 all the time during the day and during the night, but

9 most of the time in the evening.

10 Q. When they came during the evening or during

11 the day, for that matter, what did they do?

12 A. They sat with us.

13 Q. Did these soldiers or military police say

14 things to you?

15 A. Yes, they did. They asked for coffee to be

16 prepared for them.

17 Q. Prior to the war, Witness, did you know

18 anyone by the name of Dragoljub Kunarac?

19 A. No.

20 Q. During the course of the time you were at the

21 apartment, do you remember a Serb soldier by the name

22 of Tadic?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Do you recall a time when three soldiers came

25 and removed Witness 183 from the apartment?

Page 3740

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Can you please describe for the Court what

3 happened on that evening?

4 A. They entered the apartment across the hallway

5 from the apartment of Number 183.

6 Q. When you say "they", Witness, who are you

7 referring to?

8 A. Three soldiers.

9 Q. And what were these three soldiers wearing?

10 A. Military uniforms. They were armed.

11 Q. What kind of weapons did they have?

12 A. They had knives. They wore them on their

13 belts. I really don't know the names of weapons, but

14 they were armed.

15 Q. Can you recall the physical descriptions of

16 any of these three soldiers that came that evening?

17 A. One was tall, fair. The other one was darker

18 rather than fairer. And the third one, I cannot

19 remember what he looked like.

20 Q. You indicated -- where exactly were you on

21 this evening when these three soldiers came?

22 A. We were opposite the apartment of Number 183.

23 Q. Do you recall the approximate date or time

24 that these three soldiers came to the apartment?

25 A. I don't know. I don't think I can give you

Page 3741

1 the exact date, and I can't remember -- maybe it was

2 the end of June. July, actually.

3 Q. You believe it was the end of July, 1992?

4 A. Yes, yes.

5 Q. Do you recall approximately what time of day

6 or night it was when these three soldiers arrived?

7 A. It wasn't during the day at all. It was in

8 the middle of the night.

9 Q. And can you describe what happened once these

10 soldiers knocked on the door of the apartment?

11 A. When they knocked on the door of the

12 apartment, they were looking for Person 183.

13 Q. Did these soldiers ask for her by name?

14 A. They asked for her by her husband's name.

15 Q. And where were you when these soldiers asked

16 for Witness 183 by her husband's name?

17 A. We were together in the same apartment.

18 Q. Did the soldiers then enter the apartment?

19 A. Yes. We went to 183's apartment.

20 Q. And who else was in the apartment once you

21 entered the apartment?

22 A. There were two other women and two children

23 there in 183's apartment together with us.

24 Q. Once the three soldiers entered the apartment

25 with you and Witness 183 and the others, what did the

Page 3742

1 soldiers do next?

2 A. They took Person 183 to a room.

3 Q. And where were you at that time?

4 A. One walked into the room where I was and

5 those two other women.

6 Q. And the third soldier?

7 A. The third one went to where our children

8 were.

9 Q. And where was that?

10 A. The third room.

11 Q. Do you recall approximately how long the

12 three soldiers were in the apartment?

13 A. I cannot say for sure whether it was half an

14 hour or 40 minutes. It could have been something like

15 that.

16 Q. And during the time the soldiers were in the

17 apartment, what were they doing?

18 A. The one who was where I was asked to search

19 my handbag, and he asked whether I had a radio

20 transmitter.

21 Q. And did you have a radio transmitter?

22 A. No.

23 Q. And do you know if that soldier took anything

24 from your handbag?

25 A. No, no, he didn't take anything from my

Page 3743

1 handbag.

2 Q. Do you know what the other two soldiers in

3 the apartment were doing at that time?

4 A. One was with Person 183.

5 Q. And the other soldier?

6 A. The other one was with the children.

7 Q. Did there come a time, while the soldiers

8 were in the apartment, that they began removing

9 property from the apartment?

10 A. Yes, that was it.

11 Q. Can you describe how that came about?

12 A. Well, I had jewellery and money, and Person

13 183 had this in a cupboard in a small purse.

14 Q. Did you see any other type of property being

15 removed from the apartment?

16 A. Yes. Yes. There were household appliances;

17 that is to say, radios, stereo, and things like that.

18 Q. And these soldiers took these items away?

19 A. Yes, our personal belongings, like the

20 suitcases we had packed in order to be able to leave

21 when necessary.

22 Q. Did these soldiers then take Witness 183 out

23 of the apartment?

24 A. Yes, they did.

25 Q. Do you recall approximately what time that

Page 3744

1 was?

2 A. Well, I said that this lasted for about half

3 an hour or 40 minutes, and that is when they took

4 Witness 183 out.

5 Q. Do you recall if Witness 183 said anything to

6 you when she left the apartment with respect to her

7 son?

8 A. Yes. She told me that if something happened

9 to her, to take care of her son.

10 Q. Once the soldiers removed Witness 183 from

11 the apartment, did you ever see her again?

12 A. Yes. Witness 183 was returned to the

13 apartment.

14 Q. Now, while Witness 183 was gone from the

15 apartment, did anyone tell you about the group of

16 soldiers that had just been in the apartment?

17 A. Yes. I went to the apartment where we had

18 been when the three soldiers had come, and the soldier

19 whose name was Tadic said that they would return her,

20 that Zaga was with his group of soldiers.

21 Q. Prior to that time, had you ever heard any

22 mention of Zaga before?

23 A. No. No, never.

24 Q. And did this soldier, Tadic, indicate to you

25 which of the three soldiers was Zaga?

Page 3745

1 A. Believe me, I cannot remember. Maybe I'm

2 upset or something. But he did say that Zaga was

3 coming with his soldiers.

4 Q. When the three soldiers were in the apartment

5 of Witness 183, could you tell which of the three

6 soldiers was in charge of the group?

7 A. Yes. It seemed to me that I could draw a

8 conclusion myself about that.

9 Q. And what did you base that conclusion upon?

10 A. By the way this man behaved, and since he

11 took Witness 183.

12 Q. Did the other soldiers seem to be showing any

13 respect to this soldier?

14 A. Yes. In my estimate, that's the way it was.

15 That was my estimation.

16 Q. And which of the three soldiers did you

17 conclude was in charge of this group of soldiers?

18 A. The one I saw who seemed very tall, and I

19 concluded by the way he was holding himself, by his

20 bearing, I understood that this was a dangerous man.

21 Q. Was this the man that Tadic had told you

22 about by the name of Zaga?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You testified that later that morning, early

25 in the morning, Witness 183 was returned to the

Page 3746

1 apartment; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Do you recall approximately what time it was

4 that she was returned?

5 A. Well, I don't know exactly now. I think she

6 stayed out for about an hour and a half, so it could

7 have been after 2.00, 2.30.

8 Q. And who brought Witness 183 back to the

9 apartment?

10 A. The same three soldiers who had taken her

11 away.

12 Q. How long did the soldiers remain in the

13 apartment at that time?

14 A. Very briefly. They didn't stay long.

15 Q. Do you recall what Witness 183 looked like

16 when she was brought back to the apartment early in the

17 morning?

18 A. She was very confused. She had been crying.

19 Q. Did you ask her what happened?

20 A. No. I couldn't ask her what had happened.

21 Q. Did she tell you anything that happened to

22 her?

23 A. No. She came into the room where I was.

24 Q. Did she say anything to you about any of the

25 soldiers having a knife?

Page 3747

1 A. She said -- yes. When she came in, she told

2 me to give them all the valuable things they had,

3 because the same thing would happen to me that had

4 happened to her.

5 Q. Did she elaborate upon what had happened to

6 her?

7 A. Yes. Afterwards she did.

8 Q. And what exactly did she tell you had

9 happened to her?

10 A. Well, she told me that they had put a knife

11 to her throat and threatened to cut her throat unless

12 she told them the truth.

13 Q. Did she tell you that any of them had

14 assaulted her in any way?

15 A. Yes. She told me that they had behaved in a

16 vulgar manner.

17 Q. And what did that mean to you?

18 A. Well, for example, they made her touch their

19 bodies with her hands, in shameful places.

20 Q. Did Witness 183 tell you that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You testified that when the soldiers

23 returned, Witness 183 told you to give them all of your

24 personal valuables. Did you in fact do that?

25 A. In fact, I didn't give it to them because

Page 3748

1 they had taken them themselves before that.

2 Q. When the three soldiers left, did you have

3 any personal valuable property left with you?

4 A. No, I had nothing left. They took everything

5 I had.

6 Q. Did you later leave Foca?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Do you recall what day it was that you left

9 Foca?

10 A. The 13th of August, 1993. I don't know what

11 day of the week it was.

12 Q. 1992 or 1993?

13 A. In fact, it was 1992. I apologise.

14 Q. And when you left Foca on August 13th, 1992,

15 how much of your personal property did you still have

16 with you at that time?

17 A. I don't know how much jewellery I had, but I

18 did have some. I didn't have much money, maybe about

19 200 German marks.

20 Q. And since you left Foca on August 13th, 1992,

21 have you ever returned to your old house?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Did you later learn what had happened to your

24 house?

25 A. My house was burned down while I was still in

Page 3749

1 Foca.

2 Q. And was all of your personal belongings in

3 the house destroyed in that fire?

4 A. Something was destroyed and something was

5 looted before.

6 Q. Witness, I'd like to turn your attention now

7 to April 1998.

8 Did there come a time when an investigator

9 from the Tribunal came and showed you a photo board

10 with 12 photographs on it?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Do you recall whether the photographs were

13 colour photos or black and white photos?

14 A. They were black and white photos.

15 Q. And were you asked by the investigator to

16 identify anyone in those photos?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And did you, in fact, point to one of the

19 photographs?

20 A. Yes, I did.

21 Q. And after you had pointed to one of the

22 photographs, did the investigator tell you anything

23 about the photo that you had pointed to?

24 A. No, he didn't say anything to me.

25 Q. Witness, do you believe that today you could

Page 3750

1 identify the person Zaga Kunarac as the one who removed

2 Witness 183 from the courtroom [sic]?

3 JUDGE MUMBA: From the apartment, you mean?

4 MR. MUNDIS: I'm sorry, yes, from the

5 apartment.

6 A. Yes, I'll try.


8 Q. I would ask you, Witness, if you could, to

9 please look around the courtroom and see if you

10 recognise that person.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Can you please point in the general direction

13 of where the person is sitting?

14 A. At the top of the right side -- in fact the

15 left side, I apologise -- he's the second [indicates].

16 Q. If you could describe what he's wearing,

17 please.

18 A. He's wearing a suit and a vest and a

19 multi-coloured tie and a shirt, greyish-greenish shirt.

20 Q. And in relation to the police officers, can

21 you put him in relation to the uniformed police

22 officers?

23 A. He's sitting at the top on the left-hand side

24 between two policemen.

25 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Witness. I would

Page 3751

1 like the record to reflect the witness has identified

2 the accused, Dragoljub Kunarac.


4 MR. MUNDIS: If I could just consult with my

5 colleagues for one moment, please.


7 [Prosecution confers]


9 Q. Witness, I just have a couple more questions.

10 A. Go ahead.

11 Q. Did Witness 183's son tell you anything about

12 how his mother was taken away and in what kind of

13 vehicle he was taken away?

14 A. Yes, he did.

15 Q. What did he tell you?

16 A. He said that it was a red car.

17 Q. Once she was returned to the apartment, did

18 Witness 183 tell you where she was taken and how she

19 was taken there?

20 A. Yes, she did.

21 Q. And what exactly did she tell you?

22 A. She told me that she was in a car and that

23 they had driven her through Foca.

24 Q. Did she tell you where they had taken her to?

25 A. And she was taken in the direction of Brioni,

Page 3752

1 and they came to Aladza.

2 Q. Witness, when you left Foca on the 13th of

3 August, 1992, was that departure voluntary?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Why did you leave Foca?

6 A. They told us to come to the SUP to get passes

7 and sign, and they said that we had to go away from

8 Foca.

9 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Witness. The

10 Prosecution has no further questions at this time.

11 A. Thank you.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Cross-examination,

13 Mr. Prodanovic.

14 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

15 Your Honour.

16 Cross-examined by Mr. Prodanovic:

17 Q. Can you tell us where you were when the war

18 broke out in Foca?

19 A. When the war broke out, I was in Cohodar

20 Mahala.

21 Q. Is that near the Cehotina River?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What time was it when the war broke out?

24 A. I really cannot say, or I cannot tell you

25 what time it was.

Page 3753

1 Q. Can you tell us, who was with you when the

2 shooting started?

3 A. My two sons and a woman who lived nearby with

4 her husband and two children.

5 Q. Where was your husband?

6 A. My husband had gone before me, and I don't

7 know where he had gone.

8 Q. When did he come back?

9 A. He never came back. He was killed.

10 Q. When was this?

11 A. On the 25th of May, 1992.

12 Q. And where was this; in Foca?

13 A. I don't know where it was. I learned three

14 years later, what had become of my husband.

15 Q. Who suggested that you should go to Gorazde?

16 A. No one suggested it. We were afraid. We

17 wanted to escape the shooting.

18 Q. How did you go to Gorazde?

19 A. By car.

20 Q. What time of day was it?

21 A. It was about 10 a.m.

22 Q. Was this on the same day when the war broke

23 out?

24 A. It was the following day.

25 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

Page 3754

1 time has run out. Is this the right moment to break?

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We'll adjourn for today

3 and continue tomorrow morning at 0930 hours.

4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

5 4 p.m., to be reconvened on

6 Tuesday, the 23rd day of May, 2000,

7 at 9.30 a.m.