Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4185

1 Tuesday, 30 May 2000

2 [Status Conference]

3 [Open session]

4 --- Upon commencing at 10.19 a.m.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: It's the intention of the Trial

6 Chamber to move into a Status Conference at this

7 stage.

8 We're aware that the Prosecution hasn't

9 closed their case and we're also aware of the

10 obligations of the Defence in that respect and the

11 rights of the accused.

12 We felt that since we are going to have a

13 break next week, maybe we can have an informal

14 discussion and find out what the views of the Defence

15 are, what their plans are, without making firm

16 commitments, because before the Prosecution closes

17 their case it's not possible for the Defence to be able

18 to say, "This is the fixed number of witnesses and this

19 is what they are going to do or going to say" at this

20 stage. But we just wanted to have a discussion with

21 the Defence, in particular, and also with the

22 assistance of the Prosecution, for purposes of planning

23 ahead, because as you know, this Trial Chamber has

24 other commitments; for instance, Judge Pocar is on the

25 Appeals Chamber with the work load of the Appeals

Page 4186

1 Chamber; Judge Hunt is also in the Appeals Chamber on

2 other cases; we also have pre-trial cases going on. So

3 we need to do some advance planning.

4 It is with that in mind that the Trial

5 Chamber would like to invite the Defence counsel to

6 give an indication.

7 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

8 I wish to recall that a few months ago we got a

9 schedule of court hearings up to the 27th of July, and

10 we tried to meet all our obligations and to have them

11 fit into that particular schedule.

12 We talked to the experts that we wish to

13 call. However, as for the Kunarac Defence, we planned,

14 after our introductory remarks, to start with testimony

15 by the accused himself, by the accused Kunarac

16 himself. Then the joint experts would take the floor,

17 and in principle we agreed with the experts that it

18 would be best for them to have them testify in

19 mid-July. In June they will have examinations at their

20 universities. So that is our plan.

21 I don't know how much we are going to be able

22 to fit into the new schedule that we've just received.

23 Of course we understand that every plan, every

24 schedule, is subject to change as well.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, because the new schedule

Page 4187

1 is tentative, really, and since there is an indication

2 already that your experts -- the Trial Chamber knows

3 they have other assignments -- are able to come in

4 mid-July, then we can work around that.

5 If I may ask, I would like to know how many,

6 if the decision has already been made. The joint

7 experts, how many is the Defence calling?

8 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] These

9 experts, whose statements we have provided, are joint

10 experts of all three accused persons. Perhaps we are

11 just going to have three or four joint witnesses

12 related to facts, that is, as far as all three accused

13 is concerned. The Kunarac --

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Let's deal with the experts

15 first. You have three joint witnesses who are experts,

16 and you are saying that they may be available

17 mid-July.

18 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

19 Honour.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Now let's move on to the

21 fact witnesses. You are saying that you have three or

22 four joint fact witnesses, if you may proceed with

23 that.

24 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

25 Honour. After that every accused would have his own

Page 4188

1 witnesses, that is to say, we would have no more joint

2 witnesses.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: After these three or four joint

4 witnesses?

5 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

6 Honour.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Then each accused will start

8 calling his own witnesses.

9 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Now

10 I'm speaking on behalf of the accused Kunarac. After

11 that we're going to have 10 to 12 witnesses. For the

12 most part, these witnesses will speak about alibi.

13 That is what we also mentioned in our pre-trial brief.

14 That is what I wish to say in connection with

15 the accused Kunarac.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. Thank you. So if I

17 understand you correctly, your plan is that once the

18 Defence opens, they may give their opening statements.

19 After that the first witness will be Kunarac himself.

20 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

21 Honour.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: After that three joint

23 witnesses who are experts.

24 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

25 Honour.

Page 4189

1 JUDGE MUMBA: After that then three or four

2 joint witnesses.

3 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

4 Honour.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: After that 10 or 12 witnesses

6 for Kunarac only.

7 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

8 Honour.

9 You did not understand me well on one point.

10 There will be four joint court witnesses.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. Besides the three

12 experts, then we have four joint witnesses, and then we

13 move to Kunarac's own witnesses.

14 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Who may be 10 or 12.

16 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] I omitted to

17 say one more thing, that there is also a joint expert

18 witness there who will speak about command

19 responsibility of the accused Kunarac. So this is a

20 joint expert but one part of his testimony will refer

21 only to the command responsibility of the accused

22 Kunarac.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Now, that one is not in

24 the three joint expert witnesses. He's among the 10 to

25 12 witnesses for Kunarac.

Page 4190

1 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

2 Honour.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: So among the 10 to 12 witnesses

4 for Kunarac only, there will be a joint expert who will

5 discuss the other expertise, and then relate to Kunarac

6 only.

7 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

8 Honour.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. So as far as the

10 tentative plan for Kunarac's defence, that's it in

11 terms of witnesses.

12 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

13 Honour.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Before you sit down,

15 Mr. Prodanovic, the three joint experts, we already

16 have their statements, or at what stage are we? They

17 are already filed?

18 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] You have

19 received the statements of all three witnesses.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. What about the one

21 expert/fact, the one among the 12? We have already

22 received that?

23 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

24 you have received the statement and also all the expert

25 findings with the relevant attachments, that is, as far

Page 4191

1 as expert Radinovic is concerned. His findings have

2 been submitted with all the attachments concerned.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. The one who will

4 deal with command responsibility as far as Kunarac is

5 concerned, we have that.

6 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

7 Honour.

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Let me just find out, from the

10 information of the senior legal officer, among the

11 three or four joint expert witnesses, are they medical,

12 military? In what area are they, what area of

13 expertise?

14 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] These three

15 expert witnesses are from the field of medicine. We

16 have submitted their statements. As for yet another

17 expert witness, whose findings we have submitted, he is

18 from the military field.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Now, the other ordinary

20 witnesses for Kunarac, I would say now between maybe 11

21 or 12, when can we have their summaries of the

22 statements? When can the Prosecution have them? These

23 are summaries of what these witnesses will discuss.

24 Mr. Ryneveld.

25 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your

Page 4192

1 Honour.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Maybe if he wants to say

3 something, he could be of assistance.

4 Mr. Ryneveld.

5 MR. RYNEVELD: Just for clarification,

6 perhaps I've missed it but I've just checked with our

7 case manager, we have a document which has just been

8 received indicating that these three medical experts

9 have basically complied with the protective measures,

10 but to my knowledge, and I'm going to have to check

11 with my colleagues, we have not received any statements

12 about the type of evidence that they're going to give.

13 What I have, which is entitled "Statement,"

14 for each of them is that they got accounts from the

15 witnesses, the protected witnesses, and then they list

16 them; they have been informed about the Trial Chamber's

17 orders dealing with protective measures, and that once

18 they've submitted their findings they'll return the

19 documents to the Defence. That's all we have from

20 those witnesses.

21 Radinovic, who I understand is their command

22 responsibility witness, plus the joint witness on

23 military issues I think that they all want, we have his

24 report, but that's the only one that -- I'm just

25 checking with my colleagues if I'm the only one. No,

Page 4193

1 we're all in agreement. That's all we have.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: That's what the Trial Chamber

3 Judges have too on the medical experts, only the

4 acknowledgement that they've been served with the

5 statements, not yet the 94 bis requirement.

6 That is the position, Mr. Prodanovic.

7 [Trial Chamber and legal officer

8 confer]

9 JUDGE MUMBA: So we are through so far as the

10 witnesses are concerned for Kunarac, let me say, at

11 this stage.

12 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

13 Honour. May I just also respond to your question.

14 As for the majority of the witnesses, the

15 Prosecutor has already talked to them as far as alibi

16 is concerned. There is no problem whatsoever involved

17 in this. We can submit their statements, the

18 statements of these witnesses; they've already been

19 translated so it's no problem for us to submit them to

20 the Chamber and to the Prosecutor.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: You are talking about the alibi

22 defence witnesses for Kunarac, aren't you? The ones

23 whose statements you have already given to the

24 Prosecution, those are the ones you are discussing?

25 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

Page 4194

1 Honour. The Office of the Prosecutor had the

2 opportunity to talk to these people, and indeed they

3 did talk to the alibi witnesses. We also got the

4 record of these meetings. So we have these

5 statements.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: So besides those alibi

7 witnesses amongst the 10 or 12, no other witnesses,

8 ordinary fact witnesses, for Kunarac.

9 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] For Kunarac,

10 no, except for these three witnesses that pertain to

11 all, that will be testifying about the general counts.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Ryneveld, you've got the

13 alibi defence witnesses' statements or summaries of

14 their texts?

15 MR. RYNEVELD: I can say that we have the

16 names of those individuals contained in a letter of

17 November 28th, which I believe we provided copies to

18 the Court last day. I know that we have some of the

19 statements, and we have indeed had an opportunity on an

20 occasion to speak to some of these witnesses. Whether

21 or not all of them have been -- whether we've got all

22 of those statements, I don't believe.

23 Excuse me, if I just may.


25 MR. RYNEVELD: We may be at slight

Page 4195

1 cross-purposes about -- my understanding is we haven't

2 spoken to all of them because they weren't available,

3 but I want to now just double-check whether we've

4 received indications of what these witnesses will say.

5 If I might just consult.


7 [Prosecution counsel confer]

8 MR. RYNEVELD: It appears that we do have --

9 sorry.

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.

12 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, Your Honour. Just

13 checking with my colleagues, we do have statements from

14 the majority of the witnesses outlined in Defence

15 counsel's letter of November 28th. We are not certain,

16 without further checking -- we have no recollection of

17 receiving statements of the last three, or three of the

18 five that are in the last column on the second page of

19 the November 28th letter. That is not to say we don't

20 have them, it's just that while we're here we don't

21 think we do. But that's something we can check during

22 the break in terms of whether we, in fact, do have

23 them. We don't think so.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Of course bearing in mind that

25 the obligations only arise after the Prosecution have

Page 4196

1 closed their case.

2 MR. RYNEVELD: Absolutely. The spirit of

3 cooperation in this trial between the Defence and the

4 Crown has been such that we have provided them with all

5 kinds of documents, and they've attempted as well.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, I'm sure you two have

7 goodwill. So while you're discussing the expert

8 witness, you and they will be able to discuss further

9 the matters of witnesses and the statements or

10 summaries. Thank you, Mr. Ryneveld.

11 Mr. Kolesar, may we have an indication,

12 please, along the same lines that it's tentative. We

13 just want to do advance planning.

14 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I

15 would just like to clarify two matters.

16 As for the joint proposals, in keeping with

17 Rule 94 bis, we have supplied a report with the

18 attachments for the military expert.

19 As for the expert witnesses from the field of

20 medicine, they are extremely busy right now. They are

21 writing their statements, these statements are being

22 translated, they will be translated in due course, and

23 disclosed thereafter.

24 As for the evidence concerning the accused

25 Kovac, we have six or seven witnesses. Our

Page 4197

1 investigators are still dealing with them. Also we are

2 going to tender some documents by way of evidence, and

3 we are certainly going to meet all the Court deadlines

4 and we are going to meet all the discovery deadlines.

5 Since you have asked me to rise, I would like

6 to mention two other matters that I'm interested in.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Before we go on to those

8 matters, you have indicated, besides the joint

9 witnesses you have six or seven witnesses, ordinary

10 witnesses, for your client. At this stage you are not

11 able to indicate whether or not your client will give

12 evidence. You are not bound to, but if you are ready

13 with that decision we can have it.

14 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I shall be very

15 sincere when addressing the Court.

16 My client and I have been discussing this

17 possibility very seriously; however, we are going to

18 decide ultimately when the Prosecutor's case has been

19 completed entirely. I do imagine you understand what

20 I'm trying to say.


22 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] If I could just

23 refer to the two other matters I wish to address.


25 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] The first thing

Page 4198

1 that I'm interested in, as well as for the other

2 Defence counsel: After the Prosecutor's case, could

3 the Trial Chamber please tell us how much time we will

4 be given, tentatively at least, to prepare our opening

5 statements; secondly, how much time we will have to

6 meet the requirements of Rule 65 ter, (G) and (H)

7 namely?

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I'm coming to that after

9 I've heard the other Defence counsel, actually, because

10 these are joint issues for all the Defence counsel.

11 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Kolesar, when you are coming

12 to some conclusion as to whether you're going to call

13 your client, there was a very clear statement made by

14 the Appeals Chambers in a matter fairly recently that

15 if you call your client at the end of your evidence,

16 that is a matter which will be taken into account as to

17 the weight to be given to his evidence. In other

18 words, his evidence will be given more weight if he

19 gives evidence first, before you call all of your

20 witnesses. Do you understand that?

21 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I do understand

22 that, Your Honour. It was my mistake that I didn't say

23 this immediately.

24 We have agreed on the following: that if my

25 client decides to testify, he will testify immediately

Page 4199

1 after Kunarac, in that order, because he is the second

2 person who is accused. It is my fault for not having

3 mentioned that straight away.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you, Mr. Kolesar.

5 Have you decided, Mr. Jovanovic, whether it's

6 you or Ms. Lopicic? Yes, Mr. Jovanovic.

7 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

8 you know that we received our first documents in the

9 second half of January.


11 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] We accepted

12 this, and we believe that this is one of our better

13 decision, that this be a joint trial, that the accused

14 Vukovic, that is, joins in the trial that had already

15 been scheduled. This has given us a few headaches but

16 that is our problem, so to speak.

17 At this point in time I can already tell the

18 Trial Chamber the following: It is with quite a degree

19 of certainty that I can say that I'm not going to call

20 my client to testify.

21 As far as witnesses are concerned --

22 JUDGE MUMBA: That statement, as you say, is

23 tentative. After the Prosecution have closed their

24 case, then you will make your stand definite.

25 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Absolutely,

Page 4200

1 Your Honour.


3 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] As for

4 witnesses, the Defence of the accused Vukovic can

5 inform the Trial Chamber of the following right now:

6 We are going to have five or six ordinary witnesses.

7 However, unfortunately, because time is so short, we

8 could not process all the material, including some

9 documents, some documents that would be submitted in

10 writing. So I cannot tell you exactly what we are

11 going to submit; however, whatever we do decide to

12 submit will be disclosed both to our colleagues from

13 the Office of the Prosecutor, as well as to the Trial

14 Chamber.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: You do subscribe to the joint

16 expert witnesses as put forward by Mr. Prodanovic?

17 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

18 Honour.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

20 Having heard the Defence witnesses, the Trial

21 Chamber will revert to Rule 65 ter (G) and the

22 subparagraph you mentioned, Mr. Kolesar, for timing.

23 We are aware that we need to give the Defence

24 sufficient time, but at the same time we would plead

25 with the Defence that, as the Trial Chamber has

Page 4201

1 explained its busy schedules with other cases, we would

2 also appeal to the Defence to be considerate so that

3 this trial, as much as possible, can be completed

4 within the shortest time possible.

5 It is not our intention to indicate the

6 actual dates today because obviously the Prosecution

7 case is not yet over. We may be able to do that after

8 the Prosecution have closed their case and after we've

9 got a definite stand by the Defence during that time,

10 most likely on Tuesday, the 13th.

11 We are likely to indicate the opening of the

12 Defence case within the shortest time possible, after

13 everybody has filled in their concerns and after the

14 Prosecution have received what is due to them from the

15 Defence, and also after the Trial Chamber has got what

16 is due to the Trial Chamber from the Defence, because

17 we will be able to plan how much time we think the

18 Defence witnesses will take. Then it will be much

19 easier to issue a trial schedule for the Defence case.

20 I just want to plead to the Defence counsel

21 to bear all these things in mind. The intention of the

22 Trial Chamber is, as much as possible, to complete this

23 trial before the end of the year, definitely.

24 [Trial Chamber and legal officer

25 confer]

Page 4202

1 JUDGE MUMBA: I've just been reminded by the

2 senior legal officer that the Victims and Witnesses

3 Unit are always concerned about travel arrangements for

4 Defence witnesses. They would require all the

5 particulars for your witnesses in advance, a minimum of

6 three weeks usually before the witness is scheduled to

7 attend the Tribunal hearings.

8 This means that for those witnesses whose

9 particulars you already have, you may wish to give them

10 to the Victims and Witnesses Unit on the understanding

11 of the Trial Chamber that you may decide not to call

12 them. You won't be held to that. We know that

13 planning is difficult at this stage. Also, even after

14 the Defence case has opened, after listening to three

15 or four witnesses you may decide to drop some, so that

16 is an open matter.

17 The Victims and Witnesses Unit do need this

18 information for their own paperwork. As you know, they

19 have to go through the Registrar, through the Ministry

20 of Foreign Affairs here, and then the embassies. It's

21 not easy. They need time.

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 JUDGE MUMBA: The Trial Chamber also wishes

24 to state now that the pre-Defence Status Conference

25 will be held on the 13th, immediately after the

Page 4203

1 Prosecution have closed their case formally. So when

2 I'm saying we'll be able to decide this on the 13th,

3 it's actually during that pre-Defence Status

4 Conference, according to the Rules of Procedure.

5 We expect that by that date, at that time,

6 during that Status Conference, we shall have definite

7 plans, a definite list. When I say "definite," I know

8 you may drop them later, but at least for planning

9 purposes we can have all the names. 94 bis by then, if

10 not already complied with, should be complied with,

11 because on that day we will be able to give a

12 deadline. It may be a week; it may be two weeks. We

13 aren't able say because of the other schedules of

14 Judges, and pre-trial proceedings also are queueing up

15 for our time.

16 JUDGE HUNT: I think that if I may emphasise

17 this: What we anticipate at the conference on the 13th

18 of June is to be able to fix a time then when all of

19 the documents required under 65 bis (G) will be filed,

20 and we expect that they will be filed within a matter

21 of days after that conference, so you've got a long

22 time before then to get ready.

23 When the Defence case starts, it may be that

24 Mr. Kunarac's evidence will be concluded before your

25 experts are available, and we would expect you to be

Page 4204

1 calling other witnesses whilst you are awaiting your

2 Defence experts. That may be that you will call the

3 joint witnesses on facts, or you could call

4 Mr. Kunarac's own witnesses, but we want to keep the

5 matter going without waiting for the Defence experts.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Any other matters maybe from

7 the Prosecution before we rise?

8 MR. RYNEVELD: None that occur to me at the

9 moment. Thank you, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Any other matters the Defence

11 may wish to raise before we rise? No? Thank you very

12 much.

13 The proceedings are adjourned for today and

14 for this week. We'll resume our trial proceedings on

15 Tuesday, the 13th of June, at 0930 hours.

16 --- Whereupon the Status Conference

17 adjourned at 10.53 a.m.