Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4532

1 Thursday, 6 July 2000

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.48 a.m.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: The registrar please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Case number IT-96-23-T and

7 IT-96-23/1-T, the Prosecutor versus Dragoljub Kunarac, Radomir Kovac, and

8 Zoran Vukovic.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: This morning the Trial Chamber will continue with

10 two Judges. Unfortunately, due to urgent personal reasons, Judge Hunt is

11 unable to sit with us, and under the provisions of Rule 15 bis, we have

12 decided that it is in the interests of justice to continue with the

13 proceedings and we are so continuing. So examination-in-chief continues.

14 Yes, Mr. Prodanovic.


16 [Witness answered through interpreter]

17 Examined by Mr. Prodanovic: [Continued]

18 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Q. Mr. Kunarac, before I continue with my questions, let me remind

20 you where we left off yesterday. You said that you had arrived at

21 Partizan with Gaga and that you went with Witnesses DB and 75 towards the

22 house which is located in Osmana Djikica street. Can you tell us, please,

23 when you got to the house, what happened next?

24 A. When we arrived in Aladza proper and went past the health centre,

25 I asked the girls to show us the house they were in first. They mentioned

Page 4533

1 the house but said they didn't know the address. When we passed by the

2 house in Osmana Djikica number 16, one of them said that that was the

3 house they had been in, and she pointed the house out to me. Then we went

4 on to the turning point and turned round, did an U-turn and asked them

5 whether they were certain that was the house they had been taken to, and

6 they said yes. I asked them how many people were in the house at the

7 time. They said three, three men. Then I said that we would go in and

8 see if they recognised any of those three men. They agreed to this, and I

9 started back.

10 When I was on this return journey, in front of the building I saw

11 four men who were on the terrace, Bane, Miga, Tolja, Miko, and Goran, and

12 I stopped there and asked the girls whether they happened to know, to

13 recognise any of those four men standing there. The girls looked at the

14 men, said they didn't know them, and as I had stopped, they moved towards

15 me, those four men. I said that we were going into the next-door house

16 which the girls had indicated to me.

17 We went into the courtyard, and on the terrace when we entered the

18 yard, on the terrace in the floor before, at the entrance to the house, I

19 saw four or five people standing there. Two of them were sticking a --

20 nylon sheets up on the windows because the glass had been shattered that

21 night. I asked them to come down to the yard.

22 When they came down into the yard, I asked all those present, both

23 the girls and the men who were there, whether they knew each other,

24 whether they recognised each other, and I looked at the faces of the

25 people who were in the house carefully. I did not notice any signs of

Page 4534

1 recognition on their faces. I looked at the girls as well. The girls

2 shook their heads, saying -- make the sign of no, saying they didn't

3 recognise anybody, although they didn't say anything, they just shook

4 their heads.

5 Q. How many times did you go to that house?

6 A. Well, that day I went to that house twice. I said, when the lady

7 journalist told me about everything that I went to Aladza and in the

8 morning I went to the house, and I asked those people whether they knew

9 something about Partizan, whether they knew anything about the girls

10 there, and they said they did not. But I persisted and said that if

11 anybody did things like that or if anybody were to involve me in anything

12 like that, I would take a strong view. So that was the second time that

13 day that I went to that particular house.

14 Q. Can you tell us what happened next after that talk?

15 A. I turned to the girls standing next to me and asked them once

16 again whether they recognised any of those and they said no, shook their

17 heads no. I asked the men whether they knew the girls, and all those

18 present said they had seen the girls for the first time, that they had

19 never seen them before. But as the girls had indicated the house to me,

20 they had pointed it out when we were passing by, and they said that they

21 had been to the house and that they had been raped in that house, looking

22 at these men there that morning, I saw two people whom I'd never seen

23 before. And when I came on the second occasion, I saw that one of those

24 men was not there when I came again. So he was there in the morning when

25 I came for the first time, but when I turned up with the girls the second

Page 4535

1 time he wasn't there.

2 As they had told me, while we were still in the car, that Bane,

3 Miga, Tolja, Miko, Goran, and Gaga were not there for sure, and they spent

4 a lot of time with me on the terrain, in the field, I decided to go in the

5 house and talk to them in the house to see who it could have been. I

6 wanted to ask them which room they were in, what had happened, and so on.

7 So we then entered the house, went up onto the -- into the first

8 floor and went into the first room on the left-hand side. With me in the

9 room were the two of them, the two girls, and Gaga, Bane, Miga, and Goran

10 entered the room with us.

11 Q. Tell us, please, did you happen to know whether the girls were

12 afraid in any way of this meeting, this encounter?

13 A. When I told them, while we were in the car, that I would like them

14 to show me the individual who had raped them if they recognised him, I

15 told them that they needn't tell me while we were in the room, they could

16 tell me this later on. But when we got to the yard, and the yard was

17 about 10 by 10 metres, it wasn't a very large yard, and there were 10 or

18 12 people there in the yard at the time, there was us, there were two of

19 them, you could feel that they felt slightly uncomfortable and they were a

20 little frightened of the circumstances themselves for being there at all.

21 Therefore, I wanted to take them into the house so that we could

22 sit down in peace and separate them from these people whom I thought might

23 be -- one of them might be responsible for everything that had happened.

24 That was the main reason why we actually went into the house. The others

25 stayed outside side. They stayed on the terrace.

Page 4536

1 When I went upstairs, I noticed that on the table on the terrace

2 there was a bottle of alcohol on it. And they went on sitting outside and

3 drinking while we were actually in that first room on the left-hand side,

4 which was slightly like a kitchen. There was some kitchen elements, a

5 table, and four or five chairs.

6 Q. Can you tell us what happened next, did you talk to the girls,

7 continue talking to them?

8 A. As we entered this kitchen, as I said, only the people that she

9 had shown me, beforehand had shown me, and she said that she didn't know

10 these people. I said that they could feel quite free to tell me whether

11 they recognised any of the men in the courtyard. And they -- both of them

12 categorically said that none of those people there were in the house when

13 they were taken there.

14 During this conversation, which lasted some ten to 15 minutes

15 while we were all there together, Gaga -- that is to say, I asked them

16 again, did you happen to mention Zaga to the journalist? Did you happen

17 to mention Zaga in talking to the journalist, and on that occasion one of

18 them said that when they were in the house, someone did happen to mention

19 Zaga in some context or other. And when they talked to the journalist,

20 number 75, Witness number 75 said this, that they did -- she did mention

21 him, that is, she did mention people in the context of being Zaga's men or

22 Zaga's people.

23 I asked her again, "Which of those men are here now, are there

24 now?" And she said that none of the men present were amongst those three

25 who had allegedly raped her earlier on when she had -- was taken to the

Page 4537

1 house.

2 Q. Could you tell us, please, what happened next?

3 A. During this conversation, Witness DB said, "well, they were dirty

4 and unkempt," and she said, "Well, you can see where we lived and how we

5 lived, and all we needed was this other thing to happen." And I really

6 expressed my wishes to help them as much as possible, and I said that if

7 they wanted to, they could feel free to wash up and have a shower. And

8 Gaga did say, because he spent the night in that house several times and

9 he knew the layout of the place -- I had just been there for those two

10 times, I didn't know the layout of the apartment -- and he said in the

11 next-door room there was a cupboard with clothes hanging in it, and if

12 they found anything they thought useful and could use, that they could

13 feel free to take those clothes.

14 So we went into this second room on the left-hand side, and Gaga

15 indicated the cupboard and said that they could take what they wanted.

16 And I said, yes, anything you think would be useful to you, please take

17 it. You can have a shower, you can have a change of clothing, and

18 that's -- and in fact they went towards the cupboard, they opened it, they

19 looked through the clothes that were hanging in the cupboard, and I took

20 it that they did, in fact, wish -- want to have a shower and a change of

21 clothing.

22 I went out into the hallway while they were looking through the

23 cupboard and told Gaga that nobody should -- that they should be left

24 alone, that nobody should mistreat them and that they should be left to

25 have a shower. Gaga went to the people who were in the kitchen and told

Page 4538

1 them to leave, and I told Gaga not to let anybody go into the room because

2 I thought those four men who had left and the people sitting around on the

3 terrace who were already outside, so they were already outside.

4 I went into the room again where the two of them were looking

5 through the clothes, sorting out anything they thought they could wear. I

6 said that nobody would mistreat them and that they could feel free to have

7 a shower, and I sat down on the couch in the room, which was to the

8 right-hand side of the doorway. They took towels and some clothes. I

9 didn't pay much attention to what they were taking, but they selected the

10 clothes they wanted. They left the room, shut the door behind them, and I

11 stayed in the room on my own.

12 Q. How much time did you spend on your own?

13 A. When I remained alone in that room, I was sitting on the couch and

14 I started to think about the situation that I was in. I had been accused;

15 I had been slandered. I heard about it from the journalist that these

16 women were saying that I had raped them. They denied it later. They told

17 me that they only mentioned my name in the context of Zaga's men, so I

18 started wondering who this person could be who took them out and

19 mistreated them and who could have in any way been linked to me. I don't

20 know.

21 I don't know whether it was more than 15 or 20 minutes that had

22 passed, I cannot give you the exact time really because I was thinking

23 about all the circumstances involved as I'm telling you, but it could have

24 been ten or 15 minutes, 20 minutes at the most that I was in the room on

25 my own.

Page 4539

1 Q. Did anybody enter the room?

2 A. Well, after these 15 or 20 minutes, the door was opened and Gaga

3 Vukovic entered the room and Witness DB. She was wearing different

4 clothes, a light summer dress. I think it was a dress, a light summer

5 dress. And he said she's freshened up, she's taken a shower, you can

6 continue talking to her now. He was saying all of that by way of a joke.

7 I don't know how to put it.

8 And when she walked in, I was lying on that bed. She entered the

9 room, and there was another couch in that room below the window and one or

10 two armchairs and this cupboard. As I was lying on the bed, I showed her

11 the armchair and told her to sit down. She did not sit on the armchair,

12 she sat on the couch next to me.

13 Q. Tell me, what was your reaction to this thing that DB did?

14 A. Well, at that moment when she sat there, I didn't pay much

15 attention to this. I did ask her to tell me if this person was there, to

16 tell me in what context my name was mentioned and what were all the things

17 that were told to the journalist. Then she started to talk. We talked

18 for quite a long while. She said that two or three days before that, the

19 woman journalist came to Partizan, asked them about the living conditions

20 there in Partizan, the accommodation, et cetera. And then she said to me

21 that, yes, they did talk to the journalist and that they told the

22 journalist that they had been taken out and raped, and that they had been

23 taken out by some men whom they did not know. And when I asked whether

24 they had mentioned me personally, whether they said that Zaga had taken

25 them out and raped them and whether that was true, and she said that they

Page 4540

1 did not tell the journalist that it was Zaga who took them out, but one of

2 those girls present there did mention Zaga in the context of Zaga's men.

3 She claimed that none of the men she had seen there on that

4 morning was ever seen by her in Partizan, that none of them had come to

5 take her or anyone else out. She did say that it would happen in Partizan

6 that some people did come and that women were being taken out, although

7 she didn't know where they were being taken and what was happening to

8 them. And then I did ask her how long they had been there and how come

9 that they were there. I didn't know anything about it; this was the first

10 time I saw her. And then she told me -- how should I put this? -- her

11 entire life story, I mean about this past month, everything that she had

12 gone through during that month.

13 Q. And then what happened?

14 A. In this story, she mentioned that she was in Partizan and her

15 sister, and she said that her sister was the other one who talked to me in

16 the morning -- that is Witness 87 -- that her younger brother was also in

17 Partizan, and that their mother was with them too, but that her mother

18 went to talk about some kind of an exchange and that she didn't return.

19 Then I insisted on her telling me who these men were who took them

20 out, mistreated them, and raped them. I had the most sincere of wishes to

21 go to the SUP with the two of them. If she told me anybody's name or if

22 she had pointed anybody out to me, I would have gone to the SUP directly

23 with them so they could bring criminal charges against these persons. I

24 would have insisted on finding the person who was mentioning my name and

25 saying that he was me.

Page 4541

1 She said that she knew none of these men before, and she started

2 beseeching me not to ask her about all of this any more because she simply

3 did not know about it. I did insist though. I insisted on her telling

4 me. I told her, "Come on. You finished high school." Before that she

5 told me that she had finished the general high school.

6 Q. Please, let us not go into all this repetition. I'm going to put

7 a question to you. Was there any contact between the two of you there?

8 A. Well, after the conversation that went on for about an hour and a

9 half or two, at one moment after I had insisted so persistently that she

10 gave me the names of these men or to mention any man, even if they were

11 not those who were in the house, then she started beseeching me that I do

12 not ask her. Then she was sitting next to me. She fell on me. She put

13 her head on my chest and begged me not to ask her anything.

14 This gesture on her part did surprise me. I tried to pacify her,

15 to convince her that there was no reason for her to be frightened, that

16 nothing would happen to her, that she would be protected. At that point,

17 she started kissing me and begging me not to ask her a thing.

18 At that moment, I was totally confused. I absolutely did not

19 understand what she was doing. I tried to refuse this behaviour of hers

20 and to tell her again that I had to find out who these men were, because

21 do I not want my name to be mentioned in such contexts. I don't want this

22 journalist to write such articles that I had nothing to do with.

23 Then she started kissing me on the mouth, on the body. She

24 started unbuttoning me. I remained totally confused. After this -- even

25 when I wanted to say something, she would either put her hand on my mouth

Page 4542

1 or she would start kissing me on the mouth. She did not allow me to say

2 anything.

3 After that, I accepted this behaviour of hers and we had full

4 sexual vaginal intercourse, although I did nothing to give her a reason or

5 pretext for this. And I did not refuse her in any way; I accepted her

6 behaviour.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Is it your position, accused, that DB seduced you?

8 A. At any rate, at that point in time when this was happening, not at

9 a single moment did I give any reason -- I did not give her a pretext for

10 having sexual intercourse. I didn't say I wanted it.

11 At that moment, I had sexual intercourse with her against my

12 will. I mean, without having a desire for sex. I will explain this

13 later. She did this quite consciously for other reasons that I was not

14 aware of at that moment.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: That's enough. Questions, please.

16 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. I shall remind you, Mr. Kunarac, of the following: During her

18 statement, during her testimony, this witness, Witness DB, said that she

19 was not sure that there would have been sexual intercourse if she had not

20 taken an active role.

21 What can you say as far as this claim is concerned?

22 A. I assert that had she not started doing all of this, I would have

23 not -- I would not have done a thing. I did not have any ideas about

24 doing anything to her or sexually abusing her. I said that this behaviour

25 of hers really took me by surprise.

Page 4543

1 I cannot say that I was raped. She did not use any kind of force,

2 but she did everything. The way she acted was that she did not give me

3 any manoeuvring space. As a man, I accepted her behaviour and I did not

4 refuse her as a woman. I did have sexual intercourse with her.

5 Q. Please, how do you explain this, that you brought this witness in

6 order to get information from her? You wanted to talk to her, you wanted

7 to ask her about whether bad things had happened to her there. She took

8 the initiative and you had sexual intercourse with her.

9 A. I said that at that moment, I myself could not understand what was

10 going on and what was behind all of this and what was the truth.

11 After about ten days -- after about seven or eight days, I found

12 out what had happened in the meantime and why she was behaving that way.

13 However, at that moment while all of this was going on, I absolutely did

14 not know what had happened in the meantime during those 15 minutes while I

15 was alone in the room, while she was in the bathroom, that is to say, from

16 the moment she got out of the room until she got back into the room.

17 Q. As regards these circumstances, you gave two interviews. You

18 spoke in both of these interviews. Is this what you said in these two

19 interviews?

20 A. When I found out about the indictment in 1996 and when I read it

21 and when I saw this entire indictment, in relation to this witness only

22 did I see myself involved, so I surrendered myself. I volunteered to

23 speak. I gave my first interview three days after I got here. I said

24 everything that happened to me on that day. Because of the intercourse I

25 had with that woman on that day, I had a guilty conscious then. I had a

Page 4544

1 guilty conscious then; I have a guilty conscious now. That is what I

2 tried to explain in both interviews. I tried to explain what happened on

3 that day.

4 Q. Tell us, please, immediately after this intercourse, did DB leave

5 the room?

6 A. The sexual intercourse itself took place as follows: I was lying

7 on my back. She took over all initiative. She was up on me. She had

8 unbuttoned my shirt, my trousers, and she herself had carried out the

9 vaginal penetration. I did have an orgasm but I did not ejaculate into

10 her.

11 After the act, she got up and she left in the room. She left the

12 room. I stayed in the room. I got up, I got dressed, and after her, I

13 got out of that room as well, two or three minutes later, not more than

14 that. I also went to the bathroom.

15 When I got out of the bathroom, DB was sitting in the kitchen.

16 With her was 87 [sic]. Gaga was there, Kontic, this one from Niksic who

17 had come with me and Kontic.

18 Q. Excuse me. You said "87."

19 A. No, it was 75. It was Witness 75 who had come with us.

20 And since I was confused by everything that had happened in that

21 room, I did not understand a thing then in particular, because I had this

22 story from this journalist that I had taken these women out to rape them.

23 Then I brought these girls here to ask them who this person was who had

24 introduced himself to be me. I brought them to this room and -- and I

25 asked the girls only to come along and that I wanted to take them back.

Page 4545

1 Q. While you were in the room with DB, did you see what was happening

2 in the other room?

3 A. When she entered the room, Gaga got out and the door closed. At

4 that moment -- at that moment in this conversation, I mean, I was in the

5 room with her and talked to her, as I said. I absolutely did not hear

6 anything going on outside this room, nothing that could make me think that

7 something ugly was happening. The door was closed. I could not see

8 anything. At the moment when I got out, at that moment there were people

9 sitting in the kitchen, in the room where we sat together before we went

10 to this other room. So I did not hear or see anything that was going on

11 outside this room while I was in that room on my own with Witness DB.

12 Q. Tell me, when did you leave this house?

13 A. When I brought these girls there, it could have been about 9.00,

14 something like that. I said that this entire conversation could have

15 lasted for about two or two and a half hours, not longer than that,

16 including the sexual intercourse with her and everything else. After

17 that, immediately I left. That is to say, that we left this house

18 sometime around 11.00, 11.30. At any rate, during the late morning hours;

19 in the morning at any rate.

20 Q. Where did you go from there, from that house?

21 A. When I left, the two of them left and so did Gaga Vukovic. They

22 followed us. We got into the car. The two of them sat in the back. I

23 was driving. Vukovic, Gaga, was sitting next to me in the front seat, and

24 I didn't say anything as I was driving. I drove around the town twice,

25 then Gaga did ask me what I was doing, why I was circling around the town,

Page 4546

1 and I said I was looking for Gordana, Gordana Draskovic, the journalist,

2 because throughout this time and throughout all these events, I was so

3 confused that I could not understand what was going on. I couldn't

4 understand the events of that day or what had gone before, and I wanted to

5 confront the journalist with those girls and find out what kind of

6 interview she had had with them and in what context my name had been

7 mentioned, and I wanted to clear all this up. And I had the sincere

8 intention if in that interview they mentioned anyone's name or indicated

9 anyone, that I had the sincere intention of bringing criminal charges

10 against that person so that the authorities could take the appropriate

11 measures.

12 Q. Did you find Gordana that day, that morning, in fact?

13 A. Well, as I said, after circling around the town twice, I didn't

14 find her. Then I took those two girls to the Partizan building and left

15 them outside. I didn't go in; they went in. And I continued driving

16 around the town looking for Gordana, and then Vukovic said to me, "Well,

17 what do you want her for?" And I said I had to clear up what had

18 happened, that I would not be able to calm down until I found out who had

19 gone up there or who had done these things and tried to implicate me. He

20 tried to convince me not to do that.

21 And then he started telling me "Well, you don't know these people

22 well enough. They're all fools. You see that they're drunk," and so on.

23 But I didn't find her in Foca. I looked for her for half an hour or maybe

24 longer. I went through the whole town looking for her car, and then at

25 about 1215 hours I met a person who told me that he had just seen Gordana

Page 4547

1 coming from Miljevina -- or that that person was just coming from

2 Miljevina and had seen Gordana going there, and they told me that she had

3 a flat in Miljevina, that she lived there.

4 Q. Tell us, did you go to Partizan again on that day?

5 A. When I learned that Gordana had gone to Miljevina, at that moment

6 I went to Partizan again, and I again called Witness DB, Witness 75, and I

7 also asked for Witness 87, but she wasn't there. I asked Witness DB where

8 her sister was, and she said she wasn't there, she had been taken out,

9 that she had gone somewhere or had been taken somewhere.

10 In the car with us at that time, as far as I can remember, there

11 was another person, the third person who had talked with us that morning,

12 but not Witness 87. And when we got out, as we were going towards the

13 car, I told her I had found out that Gordana was in Miljevina, that I

14 wanted to take her to Miljevina and confront her with the journalist.

15 And I told all three of them and I swore by my children that

16 nothing would happen to them, that all I wanted to do was find out the

17 truth, find out who those people were; and I told them that if I found

18 out, if they helped us to discover who these men were, I would go together

19 with them to the SUP to bring criminal charges against those persons. And

20 that, in any case, they would be protected from everything.

21 Q. Can you tell us whether this third person went with you?

22 A. When I called them to come out, I know for certain that Witness 87

23 wasn't there at the time. I know for certain that DB and 75 were there,

24 and they were the ones I needed at that moment, but I really do not know

25 whether the third person went to Miljevina with us in the car or not. I

Page 4548

1 was sitting in front. I know that DB and 75 were sitting behind, and Gaga

2 Vukovic was next to me in the car all the time. I cannot assert whether

3 the third person was in the car or not, but I insist that 87 was not in

4 the car with us at that time because I asked the Witness DB at the time

5 where her sister was, and she told me she had been taken out.

6 And in the conversations we had before our sexual intercourse I

7 promised her that if I found those persons, I would protect her, her

8 sister, and her brother in every possible way; and if necessary, I would

9 take them outside the territory of Foca, if that was what she wished, only

10 if she helped me to discover the persons who were using my name.

11 Q. Can you tell us why you went with them?

12 A. Well, we went in the direction of Miljevina, and when I arrived in

13 front of the Miljevina Motel, there was a checkpoint there, a ramp, so we

14 had to stop the car. And I asked the person who was there whether Gordana

15 was in Miljevina, whether she had arrived, and he said she had. I asked

16 where I could find her, and he said he didn't know exactly where she

17 lived, but that Pero knew, and Pero was the commander of that battalion in

18 Miljevina, and that Pero was in Zela's Cafe, and I could find him there.

19 Q. Can you tell us what time it could have been when you arrived in

20 Miljevina?

21 A. Well, after their return to Partizan and after the time I learned

22 where Gordana was, it could have been about 13.00 or 13.30 at the latest,

23 on that same day, the 3rd of August.

24 Q. When you arrived in Miljevina, what did you do?

25 A. When the guard, the soldier at the checkpoint, told me that Pero

Page 4549

1 was at the Zela's Cafe and that Gordana was possibly there, I went to that

2 cafe, and in front of the cafe I saw six or seven tables. I saw that they

3 had already roasted some lambs on a spit. I saw Pero there, so I got out

4 of the car alone; Gaga and the girls remained in the car. I approached

5 Pero and I said to him that I needed Gordana, that I wanted to talk to

6 her.

7 When he saw me, and I knew him by sight, and during the military

8 operations we got to know each other better. So he said to me, "sit down,

9 I'll send someone to find her," and he told one of the soldiers to go to

10 Gordana's and ask her to come. He invited Gaga and me and the girls to

11 join, to join them and sit down with them at the table.

12 Q. Can you tell us whether you did sit down at the table with them?

13 A. I sat down next to Pero. Gaga and the girls got out of the car.

14 The tables were joined together, and there were four or five men sitting

15 between us and them. We were not all next to each other. And then Pero

16 did ask me why I wanted Gordana, and I only said I had something I wanted

17 to talk about with her, that she needed me. I didn't give him any details

18 or tell him anything about the girls at that moment.

19 Q. What time could it had been?

20 A. Well, I said around 14.00, around 1330 or 1400 hours, it was in

21 the early afternoon.

22 Q. Can you explain what happened next?

23 A. At that time I had a radio transmitter, although my radio

24 transmitter was in the car at the moment, and it was on the shelf in the

25 car. And then I heard on Pero's radio transmitter that they were calling

Page 4550

1 me from the communications centre and that they were looking for me

2 urgently. Pero was the first to answer, and he said that I was there,

3 that I was with him, and asked them what they wanted; and the

4 communications centre said that I had to report urgently, and they gave

5 the code of the brigade commander.

6 So I took his radio transmitter in order to talk to them, and I

7 wanted to talk to him in private so that others couldn't hear. And I said

8 that I was in Miljevina, that I had something very important to do there,

9 and that if it wasn't urgent, that I would be finished in half an hour to

10 an hour, and that then I would report to the command.

11 And I was told that it was extremely urgent, that I had to go

12 urgently where I had been yesterday. I was given a code, and I understood

13 that it was about the Rogoj Pass. I was told that the Rogoj Pass had

14 fallen again and that I had to report there urgently. And I said I had

15 only one man with me, because I understood the task I was about to be

16 assigned. I said I needed more men, and he said, "Well, I'll call the

17 ones who were with you a few days before," when we were reconnoitering on

18 the 31st and the 1st before we retook Rogoj.

19 So I went back and sat down again with Pero, and after less than

20 10 minutes the commander arrived, and there were three other men in the

21 car with him. And as soon as the commander arrived, I got up and I

22 approached the car, and Pero was the commander of that battalion also got

23 up and approached us. And then the commander told me what Rogoj had

24 fallen again in the morning hours before noon, and that I had to go to

25 Kalinovik, and from there I had to go in the direction of Rogoj and let

Page 4551

1 him know urgently what was happening, in what directions the enemy forces

2 were moving, how strong they were, so that in our brigade they could

3 prepare to counter the attack that was starting.

4 Then I told him that I had arrived in Miljevina in a borrowed car,

5 a car I had borrowed from Drinjak, a man in the police, and he said that

6 there would be no problems, that I would be taken by his driver, Pavlovic,

7 to Kalinovik directly, and that the commander himself would, on his return

8 to the barracks, return -- take care that the car was returned to

9 Drinjak.

10 Gordana Draskovic had not turned up from the moment Pero had sent

11 the man to fetch her to the time I'm talking about. It could have been

12 only about 20 minutes, not more.

13 So I went to the car by which I had come, took out my radio

14 transmitter and my pack containing my military equipment, my rifle,

15 everything I carried when I went out on to the field, and I transferred

16 this to the other car.

17 Q. Tell us, please, you mentioned a last name, the last name of the

18 driver, Pavlovic. Do you know his name?

19 A. Well, he was nicknamed Musa, but I think his name was Radivoje.

20 He was known by the nickname Musa.

21 Q. And where did you go from there?

22 A. When I was told that Pavlovic would take us there, we were told we

23 were going to take the old road because, as I said, the main road leading

24 toward Dobro Polje was ready for mining and ready to be cut off in case of

25 an attack. So we took the old road to Kalinovik via Bosanska Vratla and

Page 4552

1 Praprakanivja [sic], and it was about an hour's drive from Miljevina to

2 Kalinovik.

3 We arrived there, and he took us to the front of the command of

4 the Kalinovik Brigade, and following his orders, he immediately went back

5 to Miljevina. I went into the command on my own and reported there. They

6 had already been told by radio or by telephone that I would be coming, and

7 they told me to report to the assistant commander for security.

8 Q. Tell us, who was with you when you went to Kalinovik?

9 A. When the commander came from Foca, in the car he had Bano, Miga,

10 and Puko. Those were three men who been on reconnoitering missions with

11 me before. And Bano and Miga had been there the evening before when we

12 brought in the 3-barrelled gun. Bano was driving that vehicle. When he

13 came to Aladza, he was the men who were sitting and standing in front of

14 the self-service and he recognised them, and he said that I have to -- I

15 had to go on a task and that I needed three or four men, and they

16 immediately, without any objections, went to fetch their weapons. Then

17 they took Gaga's weapon too, because they knew Gaga was with me. They

18 took his weapon because when he was with me, he was not carrying his

19 weapon. So we went to Miljevina, Gaga Vukovic, Bano, Miga, Puko, and I.

20 Q. When you arrived in Kalinovik and went to the command, what

21 situation did you find there?

22 A. At a moment -- at that moment in the Main Staff, there was a

23 meeting of the brigade staff. All the people from the civilian

24 authorities, the police, and the military command were there, and they

25 took me inside. But when I saw all the men there, the assistant commander

Page 4553

1 for security went outside, and we went to his office.

2 Then he told me very briefly that Rogoj had fallen again in the

3 morning and that the Trnovo battalion had been scattered again, that they

4 had no information about casualties, about the strength of the enemy or

5 the direction of enemy movements. He told me that he had asked for

6 assistance from the commander of the Foca Brigade, and because two days

7 previously I had been at Rogoj and reconnoitered there and given good

8 information, he had asked for me to be sent there again to reconnoiter and

9 to see what was happening.

10 I was given an order to go to Rogoj again and to see what was

11 happening there and to communicate with him directly from Rogoj so that

12 they could take further steps for defence if there was a strong attack in

13 the direction of Kalinovik.

14 Q. You said that you went towards Rogoj. How long did you stay in

15 the Rogoj area doing your reconnaissance work?

16 A. When I talked to him, I asked him, that is to say I said that I

17 needed three or four more men for an assignment of that kind, local men,

18 locals the who knew the area, people from the brigade, because I was

19 afraid that I would come into conflict with those people.

20 So two men joined us straight away while we were in the barracks.

21 Later on, when we arrived at Dobro Polje, two men joined us, and we went

22 on towards Rogoj.

23 I stayed in the area doing my reconnaissance and reconnoitering

24 until the 8th in the morning. That is to say, at 7.00 in the evening, at

25 2300 hours, I reported by radio link and reported on the situation in the

Page 4554

1 area. I received orders that in the early hours of the next morning, I

2 should start out for Foca, that is to say, on the 8th in the morning.

3 So monitoring the situation at Rogoj, I was there from the 3rd in

4 the afternoon. At about 4.30 p.m. we were in Dobro Polje on our way to

5 Rogoj. On the 4th, I was on my way to Dobro Polje to submit my report as

6 to the existing situation at Rogoj, because the forces were stronger at

7 Rogoj than when we were there on the 31st and 1st. They were entrenching,

8 the terrain had been mined, and throughout that night they had engaged in

9 fortification work. It was my assessment that with the forces we had at

10 our disposal at the time, we would not be able to win back control of

11 Rogoj as we had done on the 2nd.

12 So that was my report submitted on the 4th. And the forces who

13 had already prepared for a counter-attack on Rogoj gave that up, gave up

14 the idea, and I was given the assignment of drawing into the map the exact

15 position of the enemy line. As I had seen people laying mines in the

16 area, I was given the assignment of monitoring their movements and drawing

17 in the exact location of the minefields, where they were laying the

18 mines. I did that on the 7th in the evening, until 2300 hours, when I

19 returned to Dobro Polje.

20 Q. Throughout that time that you spent at Rogoj, that is to say, from

21 the 3rd to the 8th in the morning, where did you spend your nights?

22 A. Every night and every day I spent on the ground in Rogoj. We

23 would sleep there, to the left and right, from Bandijerka to Karaula,

24 along those lines which was the broader area around Rogoj, in the woods.

25 Q. You said that on the 8th you started out for Foca?

Page 4555

1 A. Yes, that's right.

2 Q. When did you arrive in Foca?

3 A. On the 27th [sic] In the morning, that is -- on the 7th, in the

4 evening. At 2300 hours, I reported to the commander of our brigade about

5 the situation at Rogoj, and he told me that in the morning, as early as

6 possible, I should transfer to Foca. It was late. I talked to the

7 representative of the Kalinovik Brigade. They said that they had no

8 vehicle to give me because they feared a renewed enemy offensive from

9 another direction and they had already stricken off Rogoj as a possible

10 axis of attack, but they did expect an attack from another direction.

11 So they said they would see what they could do in the morning, and

12 asked for a vehicle to be given to them from SUP and to transfer me with

13 the five other men I was with. Drago Vukovic returned on the 4th, in

14 fact, because he said that he had to be at a court trial in Niksic for

15 some reason, so that I stayed there with four men.

16 The other people doing reconnaissance work with me were people

17 from Trnovo. There were several people from Trnovo with me who wanted to

18 go to the Foca Brigade. They did not want to stay on in the Kalinovik

19 Brigade because the forces were broken up in --

20 Q. My question was: When did you arrive in Foca?

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, because there seems to be a problem on the

22 recording. It's 27th or 7th. Because he said that he started off on the

23 8th of August, I take it. So can he clarify? When did he arrive in

24 Foca? Was it the same day, the 8th, or the following day?

25 A. On the 7th of August, we completed our reconnaissance work in the

Page 4556

1 early evening hours, the 7th of August, and we withdrew in the early hours

2 of the evening from Rogoj, and we went on foot to Dobro Polje. That is an

3 hour, an hour and a half. In the early hours of the morning, on the 8th

4 of August, in the morning, we started out for Foca from Kalinovik at about

5 6.00 a.m., perhaps a little before 6.00 a.m. So I arrived in Foca at

6 about 7.00 in the morning of August the 8th, 1992.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

8 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. When you arrived in Foca, do you mean you arrived in town or

10 where?

11 A. When I arrived in Foca -- at the SUP Kalinovik I was lent a car.

12 They gave me a vehicle. I was given orders to drive the vehicle to Foca

13 and to leave the car at the SUP building in Foca as soon as I arrived in

14 Foca.

15 When I arrived in Foca, I went straight towards Velecevo, that is

16 to say, the brigade headquarters, to report to the commander because

17 during our night conversation, he said that we should meet as soon as

18 possible. It was a short conversation.

19 The other people got out in front of Aladza, in front of the

20 building they lived in. I continued on my way alone, and I reached the

21 brigade headquarters at about 7.10 a.m. and reported to the commander

22 there.

23 Q. Were you given a new assignment then?

24 A. At that time, the commander told me that in the area of

25 responsibility of the 5th Battalion, in whose composition I was actually

Page 4557

1 at the time, that combat operations were underway in the Slatine region

2 and that I was to urgently join the men for those combat operations.

3 While we were discussing this, the commander received information

4 that at Papretno, the first conflict between our own forces and the Muslim

5 forces had taken place and that three of our fighters had been killed in

6 the village of Papretno.

7 I looked at the names of the people who were written down, and I

8 knew that Dragan Krnojelac had been killed on the occasion, as well as

9 Topalovic, a man with the surname of Topalovic, and the third man was -- I

10 can't think of his name just now, but three people were killed.

11 Dragan Krnojelac was a close relative of mine. His father and my

12 father were children of a brother and sister. So my mother was his

13 grandfather's sister. First cousins.

14 So when the commander heard this, he told me to go off as soon as

15 possible and to pick up as many people and to go and reinforce the unit

16 which had already suffered considerable casualties.

17 So I went towards town, towards Aladza where those people were

18 accommodated, the people who were on the ground with me, and on the way

19 from Velecevo to Foca, a little before you reach Livade, I collided with a

20 truck coming from the opposite direction, from Foca, who was cutting a

21 curve. At that moment during this accident, I was injured. The car I was

22 driving was completely smashed.

23 Q. Tell me, what injuries did you sustain in the crash?

24 A. In the crash, the accident that took place on the 8th of August in

25 the morning, sometime between 7.30 -- around 7.30, not later, two of my

Page 4558

1 ribs were fractured on the left-hand side from the impact of the crash.

2 I was all bruised up, but I was saved because at the time I was

3 wearing a flak jacket, so the impact of hitting the steering wheel

4 didn't -- wasn't fatal, but the door, as I was hit -- pushed against the

5 door, my ribs suffered and two of my ribs were fractured. But I lost

6 consciousness, and two men found it very difficult to pull me out of the

7 car because the doors were jammed, so I was able to -- they pulled me out

8 of the fifth door, the back door of the Golf, the Volkswagen Golf vehicle.

9 Q. After the accident, were you taken to the hospital?

10 A. They managed to take me out of the car and put me into another car

11 behind this Daic-make car. Its left-hand wheel was missing. It was not

12 able --

13 Q. Just answer the question, please. Did you go to hospital? So

14 please tell me. Just answer the question without going into detail.

15 A. Yes, very well. I did go to hospital; I was taken to hospital.

16 Q. What did the doctor say at the hospital?

17 A. I received a medical examination. I had a head contusion. I

18 didn't have cuts, but I had a contusion. And they sent me off for an

19 x-ray which showed that my ribs had been fractured. I did not have any

20 more serious injuries, but during the medical examination itself, although

21 they ascertained that I did not have a serious concussion -- serious

22 concussion except for those two ribs which were broken.

23 Q. Did you leave the hospital that same day?

24 A. I was told that I should stay in hospital for a day or two and

25 rest, but I refused and left the hospital at my own risk and went home to

Page 4559

1 my parents' house where I put something -- a bandage on my ribs and put

2 some ointment on.

3 Q. So tell me, on that day, the 8th of August, did you go on duty to

4 perform your assignment?

5 A. The other men did, but when I was taken to hospital, I did hand

6 over my radio transmitter to Vukovic because he needed it for his field

7 work. And I told him to collect the men and go and reinforce the men in

8 their combat operations up there.

9 But when I had bandaged my ribs and placed the ointment on my

10 ribcage, I called the headquarters and asked them whether they managed to

11 pull out the men from up there, and at 2.00 and 3.00 they still had not

12 done this, so then I, myself, left with my brother. We went up there to

13 see if they had succeed in pulling the men out. And I met them somewhere

14 behind Godrinje on the road, they were already going back. They were

15 returning with the dead bodies of the men who had been killed, and I went

16 back to Foca.

17 Q. What was the time when -- what time was it when you went back

18 to --

19 A. Went up to Foca?

20 Q. No, when you came back from Godrinje.

21 A. It was the afternoon, early evening hours. We arrived back in

22 Foca at about 5 p.m. or 6 p.m. In the late afternoon hours, at any rate.

23 Q. When you returned, where did you go?

24 A. I went home, back to my parents' house, and as I was related to

25 the Krnojelac family, my father and I went to the Krnojelac family to

Page 4560

1 express our condolences, and we stayed in their house for a few hours, and

2 they told us that the funeral would be the next day in the village, in

3 their native village. And after spending those several hours in their

4 family home, my father and I returned to my parents' home in Foca.

5 Q. So you spent the night of the 8th of August there. What happened

6 on the 9th of August, the next day?

7 A. Well, as I said, the 9th of August was the day of the funeral, and

8 many people wished to attend Dragan's funeral because many people knew him

9 in Foca, so they organised transport. A bus was organised to take the

10 mourners with no transport of their own to the funeral, so I went by bus

11 as well. But a large number of people also took their own cars and went

12 to attend the funeral, so it was -- there were many people at the funeral.

13 Q. When you reached the village of Trnovace, at the funeral there,

14 did you happen to meet Witness DP6. It is witness with protective

15 measures, let me remind you, Witness DP6. That was a witness who was

16 mentioned in context 191 and 196, mentioned by these witnesses.

17 A. Yes, during the funeral, which lasted an hour, and as was the

18 custom, we stayed in the family home for some more time, I saw Witness --

19 Q. Let me remind you of the code, DP6, Witness DP6.

20 A. Yes. I met him and I spoke to him on the occasion, and he told me

21 that there -- that some people with him had passed over Zelengora, knew

22 something about the Muslim forces at Zelengora, Mount Zelengora. And we

23 discussed this, and I told him that I knew Zelengora very well because

24 ever since I was a child, 13, 14, I would spend my summer holidays, at

25 least seven days each year, at Zelengora, mountaineering. So he suggested

Page 4561

1 that I should go and talk to those people so that we could see where they

2 passed when they went across Zelengora and where the Muslim forces might

3 be, which they said they had seen and knew were at Mount Zelengora.

4 Q. After the funeral, that same evening, did you go to Trnovace?

5 A. On the 9th of August after the funeral I did indeed leave with

6 Witness DP6 to -- we went up to Trnovace, and in the car with us were Gaga

7 Vukovic, who also attended the funeral of Dragan Krnojelac, and another

8 individual whom Witness 191 mentioned, and she said that that person had

9 raped that witness.

10 Q. On the 9th of August, was that the first time you reached

11 Trnovace?

12 A. The 9th of August at Dragan's funeral I learnt for the first time

13 that there were some people up at Trnovace, and so after the funeral,

14 sometime around 8 p.m., I got to that house in Trnovace for the first time

15 where Witnesses 191 and 186 were. When I arrived, nobody else was in that

16 house except the two of them.

17 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps this is a

18 opportune moment to take a break as it seems to be 11.00.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: We shall take our break and continue the proceedings

20 at 1130 hours.

21 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

22 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We'll continue. Mr. Prodanovic.

24 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Q. I shall remind you, Mr. Kunarac, we stopped at the following

Page 4562

1 question and your answer, that is that on the 9th, in the evening, you

2 first came to Trnovace. Who did you meet at the house in Trnovace?

3 A. When we came there, that is the first time I saw Witness 191 and

4 Witness 186. Also, that day was the first time I met the person that

5 Witness 191 mentioned by name and surname who was in the car with us, and

6 she said that this man had raped her, along with Witness DP6.

7 Q. Did you talk to Witness 191 that evening?

8 A. That evening when we returned from the funeral, the two girls who

9 were there had prepared some food. We sat there for a short time. I did

10 not feel very well due to my injuries, and I suggested to Witness DP6,

11 this person, to take me home and that I want to go and lie down. He said

12 that I didn't have to, that I could spend the night there. He took me to

13 a room on the ground floor in that house.

14 I did not talk to the girl witness that morning but by the next

15 day, on the 10th of August.

16 Q. On the next day, on the 10th of August, what did you talk about to

17 Witness 191?

18 A. In the morning when I woke up, when I got up, I went upstairs and

19 I saw that these three men were not there. I asked these two women,

20 191 and 186, where they were. They said that they had gone to Foca and

21 that they would return during the day. I talked to them about where they

22 had been and how come they came there. Then they told me about it. They

23 told me that they were from Gacko. They told me that they had crossed

24 Zelengora, that they came to Ulog, that they were in the school in

25 Kalinovik, that they were from up there, and that Gaga and DP6 brought

Page 4563

1 them, on the 2nd of August, to that house.

2 Q. Did you believe what Witness 191 said?

3 A. When I talked at the funeral to Witness DP6, he told me that he

4 had the opportunity of seeing the diary that she had kept as they were

5 moving across Zelengora, where she had described the places that she went

6 through. Although I did not have the opportunity of seeing that diary of

7 hers, I told her that I had read it and that I was interested in where

8 they had passed. When she told me about where they had moved, I reminded

9 her of some parts of Zelengora that I knew very well, so that I could

10 create a picture in my own mind as to where they had passed. As for what

11 she was telling me, I saw that she really did move across Zelengora and

12 that she really was in the areas that she had talked about.

13 Q. Was your hand bandaged then also and did you have pain in your

14 ribs?

15 A. No, I did not have a bandage on my hand or arm, but I did have a

16 bandage on my ribs. After my ribs were fractured, I went home. I made an

17 ointment of certain roots that speeds up the healing of fractured bones.

18 So I had these wide bandages all around my ribcage and all the time I was

19 bandaged. Because of my rib fractures, I found it very difficult to

20 breathe. I had to be careful about every movement I made. Whenever I

21 would move a bit faster, there would be pain in my chest where my ribs had

22 been broken.

23 Q. You said that that night of the 9th of August was the night that

24 you spent in Trnovace. Could you tell us which room you had spent the

25 night in?

Page 4564

1 A. The first night I spent in the room on the ground floor, the room

2 that one enters just below the staircase. As far as I can remember, on

3 the ground floor there were no other rooms that one could enter from below

4 the staircase except for that room. So that is the room that is on the

5 ground floor and whose door is straight ahead near the staircase that

6 leads upstairs.

7 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have received

8 information that a mistake is in the transcript. It says that DP6 was

9 marked as "Gaga."

10 JUDGE MUMBA: No. Well, we can correct it by asking the same

11 question so we can have the answer from the accused, if you can clarify

12 that.

13 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Is DP6 a person named Gaga?

15 A. No. When I mentioned Witness DP6 -- I don't know which part this

16 was. Gaga is a person called Dragutin Vukovic, a man from Niksic, whereas

17 DP6 is a person who was mentioned by Witnesses 191 and 186 as well.

18 Q. So you said that you spent that night -- that you spent that night

19 in Trnovace. Did you have sexual intercourse that night with

20 Witness 191?

21 A. That night I spent alone, the first night; that is, the night

22 between the 9th and the 10th I spent alone on the ground floor. The next

23 day I talked to Witness 191. And as for the night between the 10th and

24 11th, she was in that room with me and we also talked that night.

25 Q. Tell me, please, what would your comment be in relation to Witness

Page 4565

1 191's assertion that on the 2nd of August of 1992, in the evening, you

2 took her and six other girls out of the elementary school in Kalinovik and

3 that you drove them to Foca, and then you brought to Trnovace her and

4 Witness 186 and Witness JK, and that that night, that is to say, on the

5 2nd of August, you had sexual intercourse with Witness 191?

6 A. I assert that on the 2nd of August I certainly was not among the

7 persons who were at the school in Kalinovik, nor was I among the persons

8 who brought them to Foca, nor was I with them when they were taken to

9 Trnovace.

10 Witness 191 herself, when I talked to her on the following day,

11 mentioned to me the names of some of the persons who were at the school.

12 Those persons are also mentioned by Witness -- well, Gaga himself was at

13 the school, Gaga Vukovic. And the name of this other person is mentioned

14 by Witness, I think, 190, the person that mentions that one of the men

15 brought her there. And the third man who was with them at the school was

16 Kontic, Miroslav. That is what Witness 191 told me during that

17 conversation.

18 They brought them to Foca, and she said to me that from Foca she

19 and this girl who was there also, Witness 186, she mentioned the name of

20 yet another girl, it is probably Witness JG, that Gaga and Witness DP6

21 drove them to this house in Trnovace.

22 Q. So you said that on the 9th of August you spent the night in

23 Trnovace. Can you explain what happened on the 10th of August?

24 A. On the 10th of August in the morning, when I woke up, and when I

25 got up around 7.00 or 7.30 in the morning, perhaps it was a bit later, I

Page 4566

1 went upstairs. As I said, these two girls were in the house on their own

2 then; the three men were not there. They prepared something for

3 breakfast. I had breakfast. We sat there and talked, and then both one

4 and the other told me about what I told you a few minutes ago; how they

5 were brought from Kalinovik, how they were brought there. They mentioned

6 the refrigerator truck. They also mentioned the name of persons.

7 However, I assert that they mentioned the name of the Vukovic,

8 Gaga and Kontic, and this third person who was mentioned by -- I don't

9 know what the initials are now, but the person who says that that person

10 was with them in the car until the refrigerator truck. And then when they

11 were brought to Foca, this person took her to some apartment by the bus

12 station, and that is where this person raped her and brought her back to

13 this house in Aladza afterwards. This is a person who lived in that house

14 and spent his free time there at that house in Aladza.

15 That person had never been with me on any assignment, not for a

16 single day before that. And during the fighting in Rogoj, this man was

17 with us at Rogoj. From Rogoj he left, he, Kontic and Gaga and Radovic,

18 when I sent them to get tyres for the truck on which the 3-barrelled gun

19 was mounted. After that, I did not see them until the morning when I said

20 that I got back from the headquarters where I talked to them after having

21 talked to the woman journalist.

22 Q. As for the rest of the day on the 10th of August, where were you?

23 A. I spent that entire day at that house. In the afternoon, again

24 Witness DP6 came, Gaga Vukovic, the person who Witness 191 mentioned as

25 one of the persons who had raped her, and together with them came a girl,

Page 4567

1 Jadranka, who I did not know before that -- and who was on friendly terms

2 with this person who 191 mentioned as one of the persons who had raped

3 her.

4 Q. Where did you spend the night of the 10th?

5 JUDGE MUMBA: I'm sorry, counsel, before you go ahead. This

6 person the accused keeps referring to as the person 191 mentioned as the

7 person who raped her, is he a protected witness? Can we have the name if

8 he's not a protected witness?

9 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that is not a

10 protected witness. We did not seek protection for that witness. I think

11 this witness lives in Foca.

12 A. I do apologise, no. This witness is not in Foca. This witness is

13 also elsewhere. I understand what you're saying, I understand what you're

14 saying, yes. I would like to explain, please.

15 This third person, this third man is the person whom Witness 191

16 mentioned as one of the men who had raped her in addition to Witness DP6.

17 Unfortunately, I do not want to utter his name because of the safety of my

18 children who are there, but Witness 191 mentioned him by name and surname.

19 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps the best

20 thing would be for him to write the name and surname of this person.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, please, so that we are clear that we know who

22 it is.

23 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

24 A. The girl witness --

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the formal number?

Page 4568

1 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This document will be numbered

2 D83, Defence Exhibit, and it will be under seal.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. You may proceed.

4 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. You may continue. What happened for the rest of the day?

6 A. Well, they came, those three men and that girl, Jadranka, who came

7 with them, they arrived in the afternoon. I wasn't fit enough to sit up

8 or move around at the time. I needed a rest. I had been lying down in

9 the living-room on a couch in the corner, a corner seat, and then when

10 these persons arrived, I went back to the ground floor and called to Gaga

11 to come downstairs with me because I wanted to talk to him and to check

12 everything 191 had told me about their arrival there and all the other

13 circumstances that had happened around them.

14 Q. Where did you spend that night, the 10th?

15 A. The night from the 10th to the 11th I also spent in that house,

16 and the others were there until evening. Then Gaga confirmed that he,

17 Kontic, and the third person had been in the school and that they had

18 brought a group of girls there, and he said that he did not know where the

19 other girls were. Then he told me that the third girl had been taken back

20 to Kalinovik. After that, Gaga and the third man left the house, and I,

21 Witness DP6, and those two girl witnesses remained in the house.

22 After dinner, at around 2100 or 2200 hours, Witness DP6 was taken

23 ill. He had a heart attack. I had talked to him before that about all

24 these things, about the girls, about what had been happening there. He

25 had a chronic heart condition. I and the girls tried to carry him to the

Page 4569

1 car. I think that Jadranka had stayed behind then, but there were no

2 other men. And because my ribs were hurt, I couldn't carry him by

3 myself.

4 I then went to the hospital. I called the medical team. I told

5 them about him, and they came to get him. They put him in the car, took

6 him to hospital. I followed them. They kept him in the hospital for --

7 in the intensive ward, the ward for heart conditions, because he had had a

8 mild heart attack. I collected his things, his clothes and so on, and

9 went back to the house in Trnovace to take his things back there.

10 Q. Did you spend the night there?

11 A. Yes, I spent that night in Trnovace, and I spent the night talking

12 to Witness 191. In the house that night, there was Gaga Vukovic and

13 Witness 186, and the witness -- Jadranka who had arrived with the witness

14 I mentioned.

15 Q. On the following day, that is the 11th, how did you spend that

16 day?

17 A. As I said, I talked to Witness 191 that night. It is correct that

18 I was with her in the room on the ground floor in which I had spent the

19 first night when I slept there, but I assert that I had absolutely no

20 weapons with me. I did not have the knife that witness mentioned because,

21 as I said, on the morning of the 9th, I went to the funeral of Dragan

22 Krnojelac and I did not carry any weapons. I was wearing a camouflage

23 uniform, trousers and a shirt, but I had nothing else on me, no weapons.

24 We talked there, and on that occasion I told her again that I had

25 read her diary where she had passed, and in that conversation I felt that

Page 4570

1 she was quite sincere and open, but she told me she was willing to tell me

2 absolutely everything she knew about Zelengora -- and I saw that she knew

3 a lot -- provided that -- and I promised that if she told me, I would take

4 her wherever she wanted to go.

5 I suggested I to take her to my family in Tivat, to my wife who

6 was then eight months pregnant, to the house where she was living with my

7 daughter. I told her there was absolutely nothing for her to be afraid

8 of. So she told me she would tell me everything, provided I took her

9 mother, her sister, and her brother who were in the school in the

10 Kalinovik as well.

11 I promised her that I would see whether this was possible, whether

12 I could do that, because up till then, I didn't know. In fact, I learned

13 only the day before that they had been in the school in Kalinovik, because

14 they had been brought from there, so I learned from her that there were

15 refugees from Gacko there. I promised I would see within in the next few

16 days whether this was feasible. If it was possible, I would take her and

17 her entire family out of the area, that I would take them to Montenegro,

18 provided that she told me the complete truth about the enemy forces, the

19 Muslim forces on Zelengora, on Trbovo, and the broader area of Zelengora

20 that she knew about.

21 Q. Was Gaga there on that occasion?

22 A. Gaga was in the house, but he wasn't in the room with us at the

23 time. That evening of the 10th, the 10th to the 11th, I talked, and he

24 heard -- he came when he heard that Gojko had had a heart attack. I went

25 back and I saw Gaga there, and he said he had come -- I said he came with

Page 4571

1 us to Trnovace but he wasn't in that room downstairs.

2 On the room -- on the night of the 10th to the 11th,

3 Witnesses 191, 186, Jadranka, Gaga Vukovic, and I were in the house.

4 Q. Did Gaga tell you anything on that occasion in connection with

5 these events in the morning of the 11th of August?

6 A. In the morning of the 11th of August, Gaga -- the girls had

7 prepared breakfast, and they brought breakfast. I didn't get up. I

8 stayed in that room, and I told them to call Gaga downstairs.

9 Gaga came downstairs. And because I had been talking to

10 Witness 191 and she had explained to me everything that had happened, how

11 they had arrived in Foca, how they had been taken out of the school and

12 everything, I then talked to him, and I mentioned to him -- I said to him

13 that I had had complete confidence with him, that I had trusted him

14 absolutely, and that all the stories that I had heard before were

15 something I doubted. Then I told him what had happened to me with

16 Witness DB on the 3rd of August. Then he told me that he was to blame for

17 DB's behaviour.

18 Q. Did he explain to you how he was to blame? What did this blame

19 consist of?

20 A. Well, he told me that he had talked to Witness DB when she came

21 out of the room, when she went to take a shower, and that he had told her

22 that in any way she knew, she should deflect me from my intention of

23 finding the person who had taken them out before. When I asked him why he

24 had done that, he explained to me then, on the 11th of August, that he had

25 done it with the best of intentions, in order to protect me at that moment

Page 4572

1 because he had knew me well enough by then. We had been together in the

2 field for almost a month and a half then every day, and he knew how

3 persistent I was and that I would see this matter through and go to the

4 end until I found that person.

5 And he said that if I found that person, one of us would be

6 killed, there would be a shootout. And then when that person DB came back

7 into the room, when that person saw that she could not talk me out of

8 investigating this matter further, and she didn't want to -- or she didn't

9 dare tell who the person was who had raped her because she was afraid

10 there would be a conflict, she decided to, so to say, to try to seduce me

11 and to have sexual intercourse with me in order to distract me from

12 further investigation and further questioning.

13 Q. The night between the 10th and the 11th, did you sleep in Trnovace

14 that night?

15 A. No, I didn't spend that night in Trnovace because when Gaga told

16 me what he had done on the 3rd of August, he saw that the truth had hurt

17 me. And I told him -- I was kind of talking to myself, thinking out loud,

18 and he saw that I was sorry that all this had happened, that I regretted

19 it. But because I was physically very weak, he left me there alone, and I

20 stayed behind thinking, and he went to Foca by himself.

21 And after that, I learnt this later, he went to Partizan on his

22 own. He found out that Witness DB and Witness 75, whom I had taken to

23 Miljevina, were not in Partizan. He learnt that they had remained in

24 Miljevina, and he knew me by then, so he decided to go to Miljevina on his

25 own with the intention of bringing back those witnesses, of bringing them

Page 4573

1 back to Partizan from where they had been taken, because he was afraid

2 that if I found out that they had stayed there, and he knew that had not

3 been my wish or my intention, he thought that I would have a fight with

4 the people who had left them there. And he knew what my physical

5 condition was at that time, that it was very difficult for me to move, so

6 he went there on his own. And when he arrived there --

7 Q. Can you please tell us exactly where you spent the night between

8 the 10th and the 11th? Where did you sleep that night?

9 A. I said that I spent it there.

10 Q. In Trnovace?

11 A. Yes, in Trnovace. But I say -- what I'm talking about happened on

12 the 11th when I talked to him and he said that Witness -- that when he

13 said that he had told Witness DB to convince me to stop asking questions.

14 And then on the 11th he went to Miljevina and --

15 Q. During the time you were in Trnovace, the several nights you spent

16 there, did you on any occasion have sexual relations with Witness --

17 sexual intercourse with Witness 191?

18 A. No. I did spent a part of the night between the 10th and the 11th

19 talking to Witness 191, but we had absolutely no physical contact or any

20 kind of sexual intercourse or any other physical contact. I had no

21 physical contact with her.

22 Q. Where did you spend the following day, the 11th of August, and how

23 did that day pass?

24 A. As I said, on the 11th of August, Gaga told me what had happened

25 on the 3rd of August, and then he only told me what had happened with

Page 4574

1 Witness DB. But he still hadn't told me what happened to the other

2 witness, Witness 75, and he knew that part of the story, too. But when he

3 saw how upset I was by his action in relation to DB, he didn't tell me on

4 that day; he told me the other part a few days later.

5 As I said, he went to Miljevina. At about 4.00 in the afternoon,

6 he was wounded in Miljevina by a Serb, and he was hit in the stomach by a

7 bullet. There was a fight, and he was shot, and he was taken to

8 hospital. And I don't know who came, but one of the men from Niksic, I

9 can't remember exactly who, came to Trnovace to tell me that Gaga was in

10 hospital, and I immediately went to the hospital. When I arrived in

11 hospital, he was still in having surgery, and when he -- when the surgery

12 was over, I went back to my parents' house and spent the night between the

13 11th and the 12th there.

14 Q. On the following day, the 12th of August, what happened on that

15 day?

16 A. After Gaga was wounded, when I came home, my mother told me that

17 they had been looking for me from the command, ringing up. So I called

18 them, and they asked about my physical condition because they had planned

19 a military operation for the following day. And Witness BB6 -- no,

20 Witness DP6 -- not the witness, but person DP6 was meant to take part in

21 that military operation, but because, as I said, he had had a heart attack

22 in the night between the 10th and the 11th, and he was not fit enough to

23 carry out the task, they told me that if I could go the following morning,

24 it would not be physically hard. So on the following day, I went to the

25 brigade command.

Page 4575

1 Q. Did you get a task in the command that day?

2 A. In the morning on that day when I went there, they told me about

3 the task that several groups were supposed to carry out in the area of the

4 5th Battalion, and in essence the task consisted of reconnaissance and

5 taking the area from Preljuca via Bajaca Humak Bubanj, in the direction of

6 Cerovo Guvno, the places where the men from Cajnice, the Serb forces from

7 Cajnice, were holding positions; to connect that part of the line from the

8 Drina via Cerova Ravan, Preljuca, in the area of Cajnice to secure that

9 entire area in the Cehotina River valley and the villages in that area on

10 the right bank of the River Drina.

11 Q. Did you go to carry out that task?

12 A. They had already told me that they were looking for volunteers to

13 carry out that operation, and when they said that all the men who had been

14 out in the field with me before had volunteered, and Gaga, who was one of

15 the most able of those men, was wounded and was in hospital. And five men

16 from Trnovo had volunteered, and they had come from Trnovo with me on the

17 8th of August, and as Witness DP6 was not fit enough to go there, I

18 decided to go in the field with them to help them, at least by giving them

19 instructions in the field if there was any trouble, to organise assistance

20 for them and so on. So I went with them to carry out this task.

21 Q. Was there a conflict that day between the members of the BH army

22 and you?

23 A. As Witness DP6 was not able to carry out his assignment,

24 Aleksandar Krnojelac was entrusted with a group of people who DP6 was to

25 have led, and he went to carry out the assignment. I went with him, and

Page 4576

1 at about noon this group, including Aleksandar Krnojelac, which was to

2 protect the left flank, encountered -- didn't notice enemy bunkers, and

3 came up to the bunkers and Vido Vitkovic was killed on the spot. He was

4 one of the men who had come from Trnovo. They tried to pull him out, but

5 over the next five or ten minutes three other men were wounded. Amongst

6 them was Aleksandar Krnojelac.

7 Q. What did you undertake when Aleksandar Krnojelac was wounded?

8 A. At the same time that Vido Vitkovic was killed, with whom I had

9 spent several days reconnoitering between the 4th and 8th when I was up

10 there, he told me that his entire family had been killed. Later on he

11 found out that just one of his sisters survived, but that everybody else

12 had lost their lives.

13 I myself tried to pull the wounded out, those two wounded men, and

14 him too. The situation was highly critical because Vido and Aleksandar

15 and the other wounded men were only 30 to 40 metres away from the

16 bunkers. But nonetheless, I did manage to get up close to them, and with

17 the assistance of Slavisa Bozovic who was with me in the field for the

18 first time on that occasion, I managed to pull out Aleksandar Krnojelac.

19 And afterwards, after a few hours, sometimes in the afternoon at about 4

20 p.m., I managed to pull Vido Vitkovic out who had been killed as well.

21 Q. Were they taken to hospital?

22 A. The other two wounded men, they were not wounded as badly.

23 Aleksandar Krnojelac had injuries to his leg, his arm, his stomach. His

24 injuries were serious. So as soon as we pulled Aleksandar Krnojelac out

25 -- these other three men waited for us to pull him out, and as soon as he

Page 4577

1 was pulled out, he was taken to hospital immediately.

2 Later on, when we managed to pull Vido Vitkovic out two or three

3 hours later, after attempting several times to do so, we took them to

4 hospital as well. And I was with the people -- I accompanied these people

5 when they were being taken to hospital, and I took advantage of the

6 occasion to visit Aleksandar Krnojelac, who was in the intensive care

7 unit. He had just undergone surgery, and he was regaining consciousness

8 after the operation.

9 Q. Was Gaga in the hospital as well at the time?

10 A. Aleksandar Krnojelac and Gaga at that time were in the intensive

11 care unit, both together. Gaga was lying on the first bed to the left as

12 you go into the room. There were four beds on that side. Aleksandar was

13 lying on the second bed right next to him.

14 As I said, the Krnojelac family are relatives of mine and

15 Aleksandar was closely related to Dragan. So when he regained

16 consciousness, I went up to him, when I had seen that he had survived all

17 this, because I thought he would bleed to death, his arm had almost

18 been -- his right arm had been practically severed and it was all I could

19 do to stop the bleeding. So while I was at his bedside, I did talk to him

20 briefly and I talked to Gaga as well but only for a short time, and I was

21 able to see that Gaga was feeling better. And when I talked to the doctor

22 who had operated Gaga -- Gaga the previous day and Krnojelac that day, he

23 told me that they were both going to survive.

24 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence has a

25 document which it would like to tender into evidence. They are release

Page 4578

1 receipts from hospital, discharge papers from hospital, and they show

2 Dragomir Vukovic, nicknamed Gaga, when they were discharged and admitted.

3 For technical reasons, I have just supplied the Registry with

4 these documents. They are numbered 91 and 92 in the documentation that we

5 have supplied you with.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: So they are, both of them, discharge documents from

7 the hospital?

8 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: The Prosecution?

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No objection.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, they will be admitted into evidence. Can we

12 have the formal numbers, please.

13 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The document that was numbered

14 91 will be D84, Defence Exhibit D84. The other document which was

15 numbered 92 will be numbered D85, Defence Exhibit.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Please proceed.

17 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. Tell us now, please, was that your first encounter with Gaga after

19 he was wounded?

20 A. The day before, that is to say, on the 11th when he was wounded, I

21 was in the hospital when he -- when the operation was over. He was still

22 under the effects of anaesthetic. He had not regained consciousness. I

23 stayed there for the next 15 minutes. I saw him through the windows of

24 the intensive care unit, but I didn't talk to him because his condition

25 was serious. He had serious injuries and serious surgery, major surgery.

Page 4579

1 So I talked to him then for the first time but this was for a

2 relatively brief period of time. I paid more attention to Aleksandar.

3 And when I saw that his life was not threatened, I was there for a little

4 while but the nurse asked me to leave the intensive care unit because

5 you're not allowed to visit patients there for any length of time. So I

6 left the intensive care unit and came back the next day to see them.

7 Q. That night, the 12th of August, where did you spend that night?

8 A. When Alksandar's operation was over, it was already about

9 10.00 p.m., 2200 hours. While I was visiting him and talking to the

10 surgeon who operated on him, his family rang up several times to see how

11 he was doing, and I spoke to his family on the phone as well. His mother

12 asked me, on the occasion, to come by, to stop by their place, because she

13 had already been told that I had pulled him out and taken him to hospital

14 and all the rest of it. So that's what I did.

15 Straight after leaving hospital, I went to his parents' house, and

16 I spent several hours there in their family home.

17 Q. Where did you spend the night of the 12th of August?

18 A. After visiting his parents, at about 1.00 a.m. I went to my

19 parents' home, because the home of Aleksandar Krnojelac is in Cenezluk,

20 and my parents' home is some 800 metres away, by the church. So I spent

21 the night in my parents' house.

22 I forgot to say that I had sent the men from Trnovo, after we'd

23 pulled Vido out to go to Kalinovik, to try and find some of the Trifkovic

24 relatives. I meant Vitkovic, not Trifkovic. I'm sorry. I meant

25 Vitkovic. To see where Vido Vitkovic's funeral would take place, who had

Page 4580

1 been killed that day.

2 So I spent the night at home in my parents' house after visiting

3 the parents of Dragan Krnojelac.

4 Q. What did you do on the 13th of August?

5 A. In the morning, on the 13th of August, at the headquarters -- I

6 rang up the headquarters and asked if there was any news form Kalinovik,

7 whether Vido Vitkovic would be transported to the funeral at Kalinovik,

8 and they said no, none -- they were not able to contact any of his family

9 members and relatives and that being the case, the command had decided to

10 bury him in Foca. I organised the funeral itself, the people from Trnovo

11 dug his -- the hole, and -- and we prepared the body for burial.

12 While this was being done, I went to Gaga and Aleksandar once

13 again at the intensive care unit, because I had spoken to both of them

14 that day.

15 Q. What did you talk to Gaga about?

16 A. At the time, Gaga had regained consciousness, and he and

17 Aleksander Krnojelac had been feeling much better than they had the night

18 before. They were both wide awake, and I talked to Gaga about his

19 wounding, how he came to be wounded. I knew very little about what had

20 actually taken place.

21 The other men I had asked about this didn't want to tell me

22 anything. They just said that he had gone up, that there was a dispute of

23 some kind, and that there was a shootout and that he was wounded.

24 I asked him what the reason for this was. I didn't know why he

25 had gone there in the first place. But he vowed on the name of my unborn

Page 4581

1 child, and as I say, my wife was eight months pregnant, that it was his

2 problem, that I shouldn't -- he entreated me not to go into the matter,

3 that he had been stupid and that it was his fault. He said, "What

4 happened to me is my own fault." He didn't want to tell me any

5 particulars about what had happened, fill me in on the details. He said

6 that it was his fault, that he was to blame, and then he said that he was

7 to blame for everything that had occurred on the 3rd of August as well, in

8 the morning, in the house of -- at the Osmana Djikica number 16 house in

9 Aladza. And I said, "Well, you've already told me that. " And he said,

10 "Well, that's not all. I haven't told you everything yet."

11 Q. When did you go to Trnovace again? When was the next time you

12 went to Trnovace?

13 A. I went to Trnovace after Vido's funeral, which was on that

14 particular day, the 13th. So I didn't leave on the actual day of the

15 13th, but next day, the following day, that is to say the 14th, I went to

16 the SUP building, to the chief of SUP at the time, Dragan Gagovic. I

17 talked to him and I asked him, that is to say, I said that as Witness 191

18 had told me everything that had taken place at Zelengora and that I

19 thought she had more to say, that I wanted to take her to my own family

20 home down there, and that she had asked me that the remaining part of her

21 family who was in Kalinovik should go together with us to Montenegro.

22 I accepted this and said that I would do that for her because it

23 was essential that will we knew what was going on at Zelengora. And he

24 said that as far as he was concerned, he would be able to issue permits

25 for me, to supply me with permits giving permission for these two

Page 4582

1 individuals, that is to say, Witness 191 and 186, to leave the Foca

2 municipality.

3 Q. Please give us short answers. Did you receive permits that day?

4 A. Yes. He gave me permits for both of them, in their names. I then

5 went to Trnovace again, where I talked to both witnesses again.

6 When I arrived up there, (redacted) was not there -- that is

7 to say, DP6. I apologise. He came later. He arrived later on. But when

8 they were alone and when I was there, I showed them the exit permits and

9 said that if they wanted to, they could go with me to my family home where

10 my wife and child were. Witness 191 said that she wanted to go with me,

11 but she asked me to go and talk to her mother, to see if her mother could

12 come along as well.

13 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] May we have the name of the

14 protected witness struck from the LiveNote. The witness happened to

15 mention him by omission.


17 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] It is line 11, I believe.

18 Q. When you showed Witnesses 191 and 196 the exit permits allowing

19 them to leave Foca, did they make any suggestions to you?

20 A. After that, I said that Witness 191 accepted straight away and

21 said she wanted to go if I went to Kalinovik to see if her mother could go

22 too, and then Witness DP6 came along. And I suggested to Witness 191 that

23 she should write a letter to her mother saying that I would go and visit

24 her to see if I could take her as well, the mother. If I did not succeed

25 in bringing out her mother, then I would bring her a reply from her

Page 4583

1 mother, a letter from her mother.

2 Both witnesses then sat down to write letters. I personally did

3 not dictate what they wrote, the contents of the letter, I didn't see what

4 they had actually written, but I did say that they should write some of

5 the Serb names, that is say, if their families were not able to go, that

6 they could write the Serb names that they would look for, to ask for them

7 by these Serb names, because I thought -- I was afraid they might have

8 some problems if they spent some time in Tivat in my relative's home, but

9 exit permits were in their real names, but I just asked them to invent

10 other names.

11 Q. What did you do after that conversation?

12 A. When they wrote the letters, both of them, they sealed the

13 letters, closed the letters up, and I went to Kalinovik with Witness DP6.

14 Q. Did you find Witness 191's mother?

15 A. Yes. I found her that same day and talked to her in the school in

16 Kalinovik.

17 Q. What did you talk about?

18 A. Before I went to the school, I went to the Kalinovik SUP building

19 and showed the individual up there the certificates, the permits for

20 Witnesses 191 and 186 that I had received from the chief of SUP in Foca,

21 and explained that I wanted to take them to my own home in Tivat and asked

22 permission to do so, and whether I could take their mothers as well and

23 other family members. They said that those individual were on their list

24 and that there was to be an exchange with the Muslim side, so that they

25 could not leave Kalinovik.

Page 4584

1 I went back to the school, asked the duty officer in front of the

2 school building, I asked for the mother of Witness 191, using the name she

3 told me. But that wasn't her real name, it was her nickname, in fact.

4 And her daughter, that is to say, Witness 191, gave me her mother's

5 nickname, so that when the police officer on duty took -- saw me, he

6 called out Witness 192 and showed her to me, and her other two children

7 were with her, her son and her daughter.

8 So with her, in the presence of her son and daughter, I talked for

9 some 15 minutes to half an hour in a small room, which I think was a

10 changing room in front of the PT hall in the primary school in Kalinovik.

11 Q. On the occasion, did you tell Witness 192 that her daughter,

12 Witness 191, could leave? If you did so, did you tell her where to look

13 for her?

14 A. I told Witness 191 -- I showed her the permits for her daughter

15 and for the daughter of the other witness with whom Witness DP6 had talked

16 to. I don't know whether they were in the same room or further off, but I

17 showed them the exit permits, and I told her that she, Witness 192 and

18 others, were to be exchanged shortly. I gave her her daughter's letter

19 and said that it was my intention to take her daughter to my own family

20 home in Tivat. I showed her my own ID card and gave her my particulars

21 and the telephone number in Tivat, which is where my wife and child were

22 at the time.

23 Q. Could you tell us, please, what the telephone number was?

24 A. The telephone number in Tivat in my family home there, which my

25 father built and which is in my father's name, is 646 -- 646647, 646647.

Page 4585

1 No, 64647, 64647.

2 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has a

3 newspaper article that she got from our distinguished colleagues from the

4 Prosecution. This is actually an interview of Witness 192. She mentioned

5 these details, that is to say, that she talked to the accused and that he

6 gave his telephone number to her, and we would like to tender this into

7 evidence as a Defence exhibit.

8 We would also like to mention that we introduced, as document D56,

9 evidence that confirms that this is his father's telephone number in

10 Tivat.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: The only other detail is what newspaper is it? You

12 said it's a newspaper article.

13 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, from the Prosecution

14 we got this. And obviously this newspaper article was written in the

15 federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina. "BH Exclusive," that's what it says in

16 the heading. So our learned colleagues from the Prosecution probably have

17 more details about it.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: The Prosecution, please.

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the document was provided

20 actually by the witness, 191, I think, or 192. I'm not sure about it now,

21 but it was provided by the witness, and we have no objections against

22 entering it into evidence; however, it should be entered under seal

23 because the names are on it.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, it will be admitted under seal.

25 Counsel, do we have copies? Was the Trial Chamber supplied with

Page 4586

1 this?

2 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. We made a

3 sufficient number of photocopies for you and there is also a translation

4 there.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

6 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Details that we considered

7 important were translated, that is to say, those that refer to these

8 particulars such as the telephone number, et cetera.

9 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This document will be D86, and it

10 will be under seal.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. And may I say to the registry that can

12 we have a complete translation later into English, please, of the same

13 newspaper article.

14 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] I will tender that request this

15 afternoon.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

17 Yes, please, proceed.

18 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 Q. When did you return from Kalinovik after this conversation?

20 A. After this conversation that I had with Witness 192, I returned

21 immediately to Foca, to Foca, and I went straight to Trnovace. However, I

22 should just like to mention here that in this conversation, when I said to

23 Witness 192 that they were going to be exchanged and that her daughter

24 could go to Tivat, that she could stay at my place with my family, with my

25 wife and my child, she then wrote -- I mean, I asked her to write a letter

Page 4587

1 that I could give to her daughter confirming to her daughter that I had

2 been there and talked to her. She then did write a letter, and then -- I

3 think, I don't know, I haven't read the letter, but I think that she wrote

4 in that letter that she had talked to me, and that she would look for her

5 under the name that I gave her. It was a Serb name. Was it Gordana

6 Petrovic or Gordana Pavlovic? I don't know. It was Gordana or Goca. And

7 on that same piece of paper, her -- Witness 191's brother and sister also

8 wrote a sentence or two to her. They were present throughout this

9 conversation.

10 I said goodbye to the witness then, and I went back with Witness

11 DP6. I went back to Trnovace where I handed over the things that she had

12 prepared. She had packed a few things for her daughter. That is what I

13 gave to her daughter. I gave her the letter as well, and then she read

14 this letter. And then when I talked to her, she told me that she would go

15 and I would go to Tivat, that she wanted to go -- I mean, that her mother

16 agreed that she could come with me.

17 Q. While this was happening, where was your wife?

18 A. While this was happening, my wife was in Tivat with our daughter,

19 Ivona, and she was eight months' pregnant. She gave birth on the 23rd of

20 September. She was at this family house of my father's at that telephone

21 number, 64647.

22 Q. Tell me, please, did you inform your wife that there is the

23 possibility of someone calling and asking about Witness 191's whereabouts?

24 A. Already on the next day, on the 15th, I went to visit Gaga, and I

25 received information from the medical staff that the condition of his

Page 4588

1 health was worsening, that he himself had caused this because his stomach

2 had been wounded, his intestines were ripped apart. However, he grabbed a

3 glass of water from a nurse, and he had this drink of water, and then

4 there was an inflammation in the abdomen. And when I went to visit him,

5 he insisted that he be -- that I take him out of that hospital

6 immediately. The doctors proposed to have another operation, another

7 surgery to open him up. He didn't want to agree to that. He asked me to

8 make it possible for him to be transferred to Montenegro.

9 I talked to the doctor who was the director of the hospital in

10 Foca, and he said that he could not discharge him in that condition, that

11 his condition was very critical. That at any rate, he would not discharge

12 him without the agreement of the Podgorica hospital, that they were

13 willing to receive him in that condition.

14 At that moment I went straight to the command. I asked them to

15 secure any kind of transport for me so that I could urgently go to

16 Podgorica and try to take care of all this so that he could be admitted in

17 that condition.

18 So on that day, on the 15th before I went to Montenegro, I stopped

19 by at Trnovace. I was in a hurry because I wanted to get to Podgorica as

20 soon as possible. I proposed then to Witness 191 -- I did not see Witness

21 186 then, only 191 came to the door, and I said to her that I was going to

22 Montenegro, and that if she wanted to, she could come with me straight

23 away. She said that at that moment she was not prepared. Could I wait

24 for a few hours so that she could talk to the other one and get ready to

25 go? And I said then that I had no time to wait, that I had to go there

Page 4589

1 urgently, and that if she didn't want to go there immediately, that I

2 would come back soon and that she could leave later.

3 So on the 15th, I went to Podgorica. I took documents that I got

4 from the director of the hospital, the head of the surgical ward who had

5 operated him, and I also took his entire diagnosis and also all the

6 assumptions as to what was going on within his abdomen then and what kind

7 of -- what the effects what, what he had done, and the director at the

8 Podgorica hospital said that he would admit him into the hospital in that

9 condition.

10 The next morning of the 16th, I sent a message through a radio

11 amateur saying that -- the telephone lines were not operating. I sent a

12 message that he could be discharged from the hospital and sent to

13 Podgorica. So on the 16th, in the morning, they discharged Vukovic, and

14 they drove him in an ambulance to Podgorica for further hospitalisation.

15 Q. Tell me, did you mention at all to your wife, and if you did, when

16 did you do this, that somebody could call and ask about Witness 191?

17 A. Then when Vukovic was taken to Podgorica, when I took care of

18 that, and his condition was very critical, I decided to stay in Tivat with

19 my wife because that was the first time I went to Tivat after I had come

20 to Foca on the 6th of June, that is to say, when I had left Tivat. And as

21 I said, she was pregnant, and I decided to stay in Tivat for a few days

22 until I saw what Gaga's condition would be like.

23 During those days I talked to my wife. I told her that I had the

24 intention of bringing Witness 191. I told her absolutely everything: How

25 come she was there, who she was, who her parents were, where they were

Page 4590

1 from, et cetera. And I said that I left to her mother that telephone

2 number, and that she was supposed to be exchanged one of those days, and

3 that it was possible that I was expecting her mother or some of her

4 relatives to call.

5 I also said to her that she would not be asked about under her own

6 name and surname. I gave my wife Witness 191's real name and surname, and

7 I said that somebody would be asking about Gordana Petrovic. And I said

8 that if anybody else were to inquire after her under any other name, that

9 she should absolutely not give any other information, only if somebody

10 inquires after Gordana Petrovic, that then she could ask by name and

11 surname, "Do you need Witness 191?" and then enter a conversation with

12 such a person.

13 Q. What did your wife answer to that?

14 A. She heard me out, and she said that if she received such a call

15 and if I were not there, that she would do that.

16 Q. Do you know that your wife was really called, and that somebody

17 did indeed inquire after Witness 191?

18 A. I returned to Foca only on the 26th because Gaga Vukovic had

19 succumbed on the 20th to his wounds. The funeral was held on the 21st,

20 and I was at the cemetery three days after the funeral as well, and nobody

21 called during those days. But then after that, when I returned to Tivat

22 for the first time again, and I came to Tivat at the beginning of

23 September from the 7th to the 10th, my wife told me then in the meantime

24 someone had called, that then this person asked whether that was the Tivat

25 Hotel, and my wife said "No, this was a private apartment." She said this

Page 4591

1 is the apartment of the family of Dragoljub Kunarac. She did not give my

2 nickname; she only gave me real name and surname. At that moment the

3 female voice that was calling just hung up and did not say anything else.

4 After -- she also told me that. After a day or two, I mean after

5 that call, the same voice called again, and then said, "Is Zaga there,

6 and, "Has Zaga come?" Then she said that I had been there and that I went

7 back on the 25th or 26th, or whenever I went to Foca, and that she was

8 expecting me to come those days, because according to the ultrasound

9 findings, she was supposed to give birth on the 15th.

10 Then this person said, "Is Gordana Petrovic there?" And it was

11 only then that she understood that this was the person that I had

12 mentioned to her, that that was that person. My wife said no, but that

13 she was expecting this person to come when I came to Tivat again.

14 Q. Tell me, when did you go to Tivat again?

15 A. After the funeral of Gaga Vukovic and after we went to the

16 cemetery on the third morning after the funeral, on the 26th I went to

17 Foca again, and on the road between Scepan Polje and Foca, on part of the

18 road near Zecevic Pilana, we had an accident.

19 We were moving in an armoured combat vehicle. The vehicle had hit

20 a cow that was on the road. We -- the vehicle was overturned, and my

21 right hand, my wrist, was wounded. Eight persons were wounded, they had

22 serious or light wounds, and three persons were killed. I was kept in

23 hospital for two or three days after that, and I first came to Tivat after

24 that around the 10th of September. I'm not sure about the date exactly,

25 because I know that on the 7th day I had to get the threads out of the

Page 4592

1 wound that had been sewn, and then I had permanent plaster put on. It was

2 only after that that I went to Tivat, so it was around the 10th of

3 September.

4 Q. Tell me, how much time did you spend in Tivat this time?

5 A. As I said, my wife was pregnant. The ultrasound findings and all

6 other medical findings indicated that she was supposed to give birth

7 around the 15th, on the 15th of September.

8 Q. Please give us a precise answer.

9 A. I returned on the 19th or 20th of September when I heard over the

10 radio and television that on the road between Kalinovik and Foca, there

11 was an attack on a convoy of cars and trucks where 42 persons were

12 killed. And a day before that I talked to my brother. He had come to

13 Pluzine, and he phoned to ask whether my wife had given birth. And he was

14 supposed to go to Kalinovik that day, and I thought at that moment that he

15 was among the, among the wounded.

16 Q. You'll talk about this detail, I just asked you how long I stayed

17 in-- how long you stayed in Tivat.

18 A. I stayed until the 19th or 20th of September.

19 Q. In that period, did you continue to talk to your wife about

20 Witness 191, and were there any telephone calls?

21 A. She told me that before that, that is to say during this interval,

22 the 25th -- 6th when I left and until the 10th when I came back, that

23 there were these two telephone calls. And when I set out for Tivat on the

24 10th, I stopped by at Trnovace with the intention of taking Witnesses 191

25 and 186 with me.

Page 4593

1 However, then when I came in front of that house, the future

2 wife -- or the future husband --

3 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's mistake.

4 A. -- of Witness 191 got out of the house and said that she wouldn't

5 be going anywhere, that she would be staying there, and that she was --

6 how do I put this? -- his problem. And I said that I left my telephone

7 number to her -- that I left the telephone number to her mother, and that

8 if they call again, that I could give his name and surname so that they

9 could call him. And he said no problem whatsoever, and he gave me his

10 telephone number. And when I came to Tivat I talked to my wife about

11 this, and I gave her that telephone number as well so that she could tell

12 these persons if they call where their daughter is and why she did not

13 come to Tivat.

14 Q. Was this your last contact with Witness 191?

15 A. I did not see Witness 191 then at all because when I came in front

16 of this house on the 9th or 10th of September, I said her future husband

17 walked out of the house. I talked to him then, and he told me that she

18 did not want to go to Tivat, that she wanted to stay there. And the last

19 time I talked to Witness 191 was after I was wounded, after I got out of

20 hospital. One afternoon I went to Trnovace, and I told her that I

21 intended to go to Tivat in a couple of days and that both of them could

22 come along with me to Tivat.

23 That afternoon or late in the afternoon, early evening, the

24 incident that Witness 186 mentioned occurred and -- when a person came who

25 wanted to have sexual intercourse with them, and after that this person

Page 4594

1 shot at that house. I did on that occasion protect both persons from his

2 attack and from this shooting.

3 So the last time I saw Witness 191 in that period was on the 29th

4 or 30th of August. I don't know the exact date, but the second or third

5 evening after I got out of hospital after my right wrist was injured.

6 Q. Mr. Kunarac, now I am going to put a few questions to you related

7 to the persons who went into action with you.

8 Could you tell us when you were wounded?

9 A. Are you referring to when I became disabled? I was wounded on the

10 14th of June, 1995. That was the last time I was wounded, so the 14th of

11 June, 1995.

12 Q. Could you tell me where this happened?

13 A. I was wounded behind Gorazde on the right bank of the Drina River,

14 the wider region of Velika Biserna. And the feature itself is called

15 Gradina, I think, over there, too, because that is a frequent name for

16 places there. But Velika Biserna, the wider region of Velika Biserna.

17 Q. Could you tell us how this happened?

18 A. I was reconnoitering then because from that period, from the month

19 of June 1992 when those engineering people came back from their training,

20 I was mostly involved in reconnaissance. That day which was wounded, I

21 was charged with reconnoitering the positions that were taken by the

22 Muslim side a day or two before that. I was crawling, and as I was

23 crawling, I hit a mine that was buried in the ground and it blew away my

24 right elbow.

25 Q. What kind of an injury did you get then?

Page 4595

1 A. These were serious injuries of the right arm. The elbow was

2 entirely destroyed, four or five centimetres of the bone beneath the elbow

3 and above the elbow and quite a bit of muscular tissue in the elbow area.

4 Q. In this period, from the month of June 1992, that is to say, from

5 the moment when you came to Foca and until the month of June 1995, that is

6 to say, the day when you were wounded, can you tell us what was the total

7 number of soldiers who went into action with you within the assignments

8 that you were given?

9 A. Well, I got that question during the questioning itself. Over

10 150 men. Over 150 men for sure. Some spent one day, some spent more than

11 that, but over 150 men were with me at least for one day during all those

12 years involved in at least one of the tasks that I was assigned.

13 Q. Can you tell me whether somebody got killed in combat action while

14 with you?

15 A. With me? One of the first killed was Vido Vitkovic. Later, a

16 large number of men who went into action with me once or twice or more

17 times, and after that went to an intervention unit or some other unit.

18 Many people were killed because they were mainly courageous people who

19 moved in the first lines of direct combat and that is where most

20 casualties, fatalities are sustained.

21 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps that would

22 be the right time to take a lunch break.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. You still have more examination-in-chief? How

24 much do you think you still need? Do you feel we'll move into Monday?

25 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, I think that we're going to

Page 4596

1 finish today as far as the Defence is concerned.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Before we rise, I just want to call upon the

3 Prosecution to prepare their responses to Defence submissions filed on

4 4th July regarding safe conduct for one of their witnesses, and also they

5 have given reasons for the request of the pseudonym for the other Defence

6 witness. I would like the Prosecution, if need be, to comment or to

7 inform the Trial Chamber of their views, and the other one is the one

8 filed on 5th of July regarding a request for videolink for one of the

9 Defence witnesses.

10 Now, I would like the Prosecution to respond on Monday orally.

11 They will be given time during -- if they are ready, maybe --

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: We can even do it now. I mean, we are

13 prepared to give the answers now.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Yes. For two of them.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: For all of them. For all the motions and

16 submissions.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. We'll do it in the afternoon then, first

18 thing, since we have to rise for lunch break.

19 We will continue this afternoon at 1430 hours, and we'll see,

20 perhaps complete and then give the Prosecution an opportunity to deal with

21 this, because I wouldn't like to interrupt the witness.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: The Court will rise.

24 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.


Page 4597


2 --- On resuming at 2.32 p.m.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Prodanovic. We'll continue with our

4 proceedings.

5 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Q. My last question, Mr. Kunarac, was whether there were any men

7 killed in carrying out the battle task, those who were with you, and you

8 answered. My next is: Were any men wounded or taken prisoner?

9 A. Of the number I mentioned, 150 men, a large number were wounded

10 during those three years, and there were cases where some were taken

11 prisoner.

12 Q. When witness Subasic testified in this courtroom, he said one

13 soldier had been taken prisoner who was with you in action; is that

14 correct?

15 A. Yes. During 1994, in the spring of 1994, a soldier who went to

16 reconnoiter with me was taken prisoner, and he was detained in Gorazde for

17 four or five months.

18 Q. When you went into action to carry out a battle task when you went

19 out to reconnoiter, can you say how many men usually went with you?

20 A. Well, it depended on the task we were given, on the terrain where

21 the task was to be carried out, but I always tried to have as small a

22 group as possible in order to do the job. So it ranged from four to five

23 men up to eight or nine men.

24 Q. When you are assigned a task and when you estimate that you need

25 three to four men in order to complete it successfully, how did you choose

Page 4598

1 the men?

2 A. Well to be given a task -- when I was given a task and when I

3 determined how many men I needed, I usually asked for volunteers from that

4 battalion in whose zone of responsibility it was. And if more men than I

5 needed volunteered, then I would choose the number of people I needed out

6 of the volunteers. I always wanted those men to be volunteers.

7 Q. Those who went with you to carry out tasks, can you say how they

8 addressed you?

9 A. All the men who worked with me throughout the war always addressed

10 me as Zaga, my nickname, and I referred to them by name or nickname.

11 Q. Can you tell us what system of military discipline existed for

12 those who only went out to carry out a specific task?

13 A. All those who volunteered to carry out such a task were aware of

14 the responsibility they bore on such a mission, and they knew that if any

15 individual threatened his own life by irresponsible behaviour, he would be

16 threatening the lives of the whole group. So as far as carrying out tasks

17 on the ground went, discipline was at a very high level.

18 Q. Tell us whether there were moments when disciplinary measures had

19 to be taken because of failure to respect discipline while carrying out a

20 task.

21 A. Though no serious incidents in my experience, except for one when

22 a soldier, of his own accord, wanted to take a short-cut and by doing so

23 he endangered himself. He was taken prisoner, just as I have said. But

24 there were no other serious incidents in the field which would require the

25 initiation of any kind of disciplinary measures or procedure.

Page 4599

1 Q. Tell me, if someone did breach discipline when carrying out a task

2 with you, was it in your power to punish him in any way?

3 A. As I have said, men went to carry out a task as volunteers. They

4 did so voluntarily. The only thing I could do if their behaviour

5 endangered the whole group, was not to agree to have that man go with me

6 again the next time I was sent out to carry out a task. That was all I

7 could do. Had there been a serious incident, which there wasn't, it would

8 have been my duty to submit a detailed report to the commander of his

9 battalion so that his battalion commander could take further disciplinary

10 measures against him.

11 Q. Do you know whether there were volunteers from Montenegro in other

12 units?

13 A. During those three years, I moved up and down the entire line held

14 by our army, and I know that in all the battalions and all the units there

15 was a certain number of volunteers from Montenegro.

16 Q. In your statement -- in her statement, Witness FWS-190 mentioned a

17 person who allegedly raped her, and she said that she saw him in Osman

18 Dzikic's house. Can you say whether this person ever went with you, if

19 you remember the testimony of Witness 190?

20 A. Are you referring to the witness -- to the man that the witness

21 said was driving a car, and she said she was in the car with him when they

22 were taken out of the school? Is that the person you are referring to?

23 Yes, I know who that is, but that person never went out with me when I was

24 carrying out a combat task, and that person was not a member of the

25 5th Battalion where I was on the list of members of the battalion.

Page 4600

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, to help us identify this person, if the

2 accused cannot mention his name, and you're talking about a statement, can

3 we have the number of that statement? Can we also have the particular

4 paragraph, if possible the sentence, so that we can all know who we are

5 discussing?

6 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have just prepared

7 a document which I wish to introduce and which contains the name of the

8 man that Witness 190 mentioned, and there is a certificate here to say

9 that that person never reported to the military department in Foca. We

10 wish to tender this into evidence at this moment. You have received all

11 this. It is number 98.

12 So Witness 190 decidedly mentioned the name and last name of that

13 person.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Your numbering of the document is 98?

15 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we first look at it, please? It's difficult to

17 extract these documents from the bundles.

18 Did you say you wanted it admitted into evidence?

19 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: The Prosecution, please?

21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No objections, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, it will be admitted into evidence. Can we have

23 a formal number? Before we get it, do you want it under seal?

24 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. The person is

25 at large.

Page 4601

1 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

2 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This document dated the 2nd of

3 February, 1999, will be D87, Defence exhibit, and it will be registered

4 under seal.

5 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation].

6 Q. Mr. Kunarac, can you tell us who lived in the house on Osmana

7 Djikica street?

8 A. As I said, the person just mentioned spent his time in that

9 house. With him in that house there was Kontic, Gaga, and a fourth person

10 whose name I haven't mentioned and whom I said came with me from Niksic,

11 and that is the name mentioned by Witness 75.

12 Q. You said that Gaga and Kontic were hurt by the Serbs, by Serbs.

13 Can you tell us how this happened?

14 A. Well, I said that Gaga on the 11th of August in the afternoon went

15 to Miljevina, and there was a squabble, an argument with a man in

16 Miljevina. And in that argument he was shot in the stomach. I didn't

17 know the reason for the argument then. Much, much later I learned the

18 real reason why Vukovic went up there.

19 And Kontic in September, I'm not sure whether it was the 19th or

20 the 20th of September, but in any case it was on the same day when there

21 was an ambush in Paprat Manivje where 42 men were killed, I went from

22 Tivat because I thought my brother had been wounded. And on that evening

23 when I came to Foca, I learned that Kontic had had a showdown in Foca near

24 the house in Osmana Djikica street, and that he had been killed in that

25 showdown, and he had been killed by a volunteer from Montenegro. His last

Page 4602

1 name was Dzapic, and I can't remember his first name at the moment, but

2 Dzapic was his last name.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Was that 1992?

4 A. Yes, it was in 1992, in September. It was the 19th or the 20th of

5 September. I'm not sure of the exact date.

6 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. You said that Gaga was operated on, and you talked to him the

8 following morning, and you asked what had happened to him. Was anyone

9 else present, and did anyone else hear this conversation?

10 A. On the 13th, two days after Gaga was wounded, I talked to Gaga,

11 and Krnojelac, Aleksandar Krnojelac was in the bed next to him. He was

12 wounded before, as I said. And Aleksandar was fully conscious, and he was

13 able to hear the entire conversation, and he joined in the conversation

14 and talked to us about everything.

15 Q. Can you tell us how you got to know Gaga?

16 A. I got to know Gaga after the first task I was assigned when on the

17 9th of June we went to the zone of responsibility of the 1st Battalion on

18 our first task. And on our return on the 19th or 20th of June, when I got

19 back from my assignment, when we went to Tjentiste, and then on our return

20 from Tjentiste, Kontic introduced me to Gaga. He knew him from Niksic.

21 And then I was introduced to three other young men, Bana -- sorry,

22 Bano, Miko, and Puko. And I became acquainted with those four men then.

23 And then they were deployed in the 5th Battalion, they volunteered in the

24 meantime and signed up, and they were assigned to the 5th Battalion. And

25 with those four men, later on I went out into the field with them very

Page 4603

1 often, and those four were with me on almost every assignment I was given

2 in July and August.

3 Q. Can you tell us what happened to the house in Osmana Djikica

4 street?

5 A. After Kontic was killed on the 19th or 20th of September, and

6 before that, men gathered in that house very often to drink, to drink

7 alcohol. And after one such gathering there was an argument between

8 Dzapic and Kontic when he was killed, and after his death, I wasn't there

9 because a few days later I went back to Tivat because my wife had given

10 birth, but I heard there had been another argument among the men who lived

11 in that house, who spent time there, and that there was a shootout. And

12 there were no wounded and no one had been killed, but the house itself

13 caught fire and was burned down.

14 Q. Can you tell us what kind of people went into these operations

15 with you?

16 A. As far as the three younger men I mentioned, Bano, Miko, and Puko,

17 they were young men who were between the ages of 23 and 25. They were

18 well-disciplined young men, they were very capable men, well-developed

19 physically.

20 As far as Gaga Vukovic is concerned, he was a little older than

21 me; he was 40 or 42. He was a very brave man and dangerous. He didn't

22 get drunk when he was on assignment in the field, but from people who knew

23 him I did hear that when he did drink, he could make problems.

24 As far as Kontic is concerned, he was also older than me.

25 Q. You don't have to go into them one by one, whether they were

Page 4604

1 courageous or not. Just tell us generally.

2 A. Well, all of them were very courageous men, exceptionally brave

3 and ready to perform the most dangerous assignments. And I was always

4 ready and willing to take them with me when I went on high-risk

5 assignments because I knew I could rely on them at all times and that they

6 would always help me, even in the most difficult situations.

7 Q. In your free time, I'm sure there were cases when they would have

8 to go back to Niksic to see their families, did they have to ask your

9 permission to leave?

10 A. If they were not with me in the field, if I was in the field with

11 another group of people, then these other people who did not volunteer,

12 they did not have to ask my permission.

13 Gaga Vukovic had to go to Niksic on one occasion, that was on the

14 4th of August, and when we were doing reconnaissance work at Rogoj, and he

15 told me that he would have to be in Niksic for the 5th of August to attend

16 a trial. And as we were on assignment, I said he could go, and that he

17 should report to the battalion upon his return if I was still on my

18 assignment. And he left then, but in other cases people would leave

19 without me knowing. I didn't know that they were absent, that they had

20 left Foca at all.

21 Q. When they were -- when they had some free time, when they weren't

22 on assignment, was there any way in which you could control these men and

23 was it your duty to do so?

24 A. I said that people joined me on my assignments on a voluntary

25 basis. Once I completed my assignment and they returned from the

Page 4605

1 assignment, they would go back to their basic units and carry on the tasks

2 that they were doing before they went on assignment with me. And I had no

3 means of controlling them, nor was it my duty to do so. So I did not know

4 their whereabouts.

5 They lived in different districts around town, and I was not able

6 to control them physically. If I was free at that same time, if I had

7 some time off, I didn't know where they were, and I had no possibility of

8 controlling them, nor was it my duty to control them during their free

9 time, time off.

10 Q. Tell me, please, how did you contact these people? How did you

11 come into contact with them? Because you were living with your family

12 when you weren't on assignment. How did you do this?

13 A. I said that Gaga went with me on assignment very often, and I

14 would call upon him frequently, because the first time he went on an

15 assignment with me he said he would always be ready to go with me anywhere

16 and he always volunteered. So in that house, I would come in front of the

17 house -- they didn't have a telephone there -- and I would stand in front

18 of the house and call out to him. The other people had telephones in

19 their apartments or houses they lived in, so I would call them up and

20 contact them in that way.

21 And as I say, I always looked for volunteers, and people usually

22 did volunteer when I was given my assignment. I would say I need three,

23 five, ten men, and the battalion commander would ask for volunteers to

24 come forward.

25 So if I needed any one of these people, I would call them by

Page 4606

1 telephone, but Gaga Vukovic, as I said a moment ago, I would have to go in

2 front of the house and ask for him, call out for him.

3 Q. When you went on assignment, how did you assess the quality of the

4 men available and how did you choose the people to go on assignment with

5 you? How did you select your men?

6 A. Well, usually for the first time, I would just do this on a sort

7 of visual basis, my impression of the person, and I'd talk to him for a

8 brief moment. So I just judged that way. But if the same people

9 volunteered a second time, then I knew whether they were capable or not.

10 So on the basis of what I had seen on the first assignment, whether they

11 were good or not, I would decide whether to take them along or not.

12 Q. Can you tell us, please, how you communicated with your

13 superiors?

14 A. Do you mean in the field or ...

15 Q. Yes, in the field or on assignment.

16 A. I had a radio transmitter. Not when I went on my first

17 assignment; that is to say, up until the 20th of June I did not. But

18 after that, when I went on other assignments and reconnaissance and

19 reconnoitering work along the front line, I was given a radio transmitter

20 and I was able to, telegraphically, via radio communication, to link up

21 with them if there were any messages to convey or anything like that and

22 if I was not able to reach a telephone.

23 Q. What was the communication like when you were in town?

24 A. I had very little free time, and when I was free, I would usually

25 spend it with my parents, in their home. But if the battalion commander

Page 4607

1 needed me, or anybody from the headquarters, they would ring me up at my

2 parents' house, that telephone number, and tell me to go to the

3 headquarters, or via radio transmitter, radio communication, I would be

4 informed where I had to report.

5 Q. When you received an assignment, was there only you and your

6 commander or were other soldiers present as well?

7 A. When I was issued an assignment to do reconnaissance work,

8 usually, practically always, I was there and the person issuing the orders

9 and the assignment to me. The two of us would be there alone, usually.

10 The assignments were highly complex ones, and it was very important not to

11 disclose the area I would be working in to anybody else. It was a

12 confidential assignment. So that in 99 per cent of the cases, I would

13 receive orders from my immediate superior, the superior commander issuing

14 the order and the assignment to me without the presence of anybody else.

15 Q. Did you ever receive orders from mixed organs, such as the police,

16 for example?

17 A. I never received an order from the police, from a police officer,

18 civilian police officer, if that's the police you mean. But as to the

19 mixed organs, I did receive orders.

20 For example, when we worked together with the Kalinovik Brigade,

21 and you had the representatives of our Foca Brigade, and representatives

22 of their brigade, and they would coordinate their positions, the positions

23 of the two brigades, and in situations of that kind, I would get it from

24 the two sides, but I never -- I was never issued any orders or assignment

25 by the police force.

Page 4608

1 Q. Tell us, please, between the 13th of July and the 1st of August,

2 1992, did you take out Witness FWS-87? Did you take them [sic] to a house

3 in Osmana Djikica street, and that she was allegedly raped by two

4 Montenegrin soldiers on the occasion?

5 A. On the 13th of July, up until the 2nd of August, Witness FWS-87, I

6 never took her out of Partizan nor did I ever take her to a house in

7 Osmana Djikica street nor was I ever present when she was taken out or

8 raped in that house.

9 Q. When did you meet this witness for the first time?

10 A. I met the witness for the first time, as I already said,

11 Witness 87, it was the younger sister of the Witness DB and I saw her on

12 that particular morning of the 3rd of August when I took out four

13 individuals and talked to them. When I came the first time, she was

14 amongst those four people. That's when I saw her for the first time in my

15 life.

16 Q. Did you ever, and if you did, say so, or did you several times

17 take Witness 75 and DB to the house in Osmana Djikica street and abuse

18 them there?

19 A. As I have already said, once on the 3rd of August, in the morning,

20 that is to say, in the morning hours at around 9.00 a.m., I took

21 Witness DB and Witness 75 to the house in Osmana Djikica street, and on

22 that occasion I had sexual intercourse with Witness DB.

23 Q. Is that the incident that you described to us here today?

24 A. Yes, that's right. That's the incident. But otherwise, apart

25 from that time, I never took those two witnesses out, and I saw them for

Page 4609

1 the first time on that particular morning.

2 Q. About the 16th of July, 1992, did you take out, with Gaga, Witness

3 FWS-75 and DB, and were they raped on that occasion in the house on Osmana

4 Djikica street?

5 A. No. On the 16th of July, I was carrying out my assignment at

6 Gabelic Kosa, and I assert that on that day I was up there. The first

7 time I took out these witnesses and when Gaga was with me was the only

8 time. That was on the 3rd of August, in the morning, and I stated that

9 here today.

10 Q. Did you, on the 2nd of August, 1992, take Witness FWS-75, 87, 50,

11 and DB to the house in Osmana Djikica street, and did you rape FWS-87 on

12 that occasion, and did any of the other soldiers rape Witness 75 and

13 Witness 50?

14 A. I assert that on the 2nd of August, I did not take a single person

15 to the house in Osmana Djikica street. I didn't go to the house at all.

16 I didn't take them there nor was I present in the house when they were

17 there nor did I rape any one of those witnesses on the 2nd of August.

18 Q. Between the 13th of July, 1992 and the 2nd of August, 1992, on two

19 occasions did you take out Witness FWS-95 from the Partizan hall to the --

20 and take her to the house of Osmana Djikica street in order to rape her,

21 and that, for the first time, allegedly you took Witness 95, together with

22 two other women, and that on that occasion, you personally raped

23 Witness 95, and after you, she was raped by three other soldiers? And for

24 the second time, on a second occasion, did you take Witness 95 to the same

25 house where she was allegedly raped by two or three soldiers?

Page 4610

1 A. No. Absolutely never. Never before the 3rd of August was I ever

2 at Partizan. And between the 13th of July, up until the 21st of July, I

3 was on assignment, carrying out my assignment. Then I had other

4 assignments. But I am quite certain that nobody and none of these people

5 mentioned here, did I take them out of the Partizan hall nor did I have

6 anything to do with them being taken out nor was I present when they were

7 taken out.

8 Q. Did you, around the 13th of July, 1992, take Witness FWS-48 and

9 two other people to the Hotel Zelengora and rape this witness on that

10 occasion?

11 A. No. Witness 48 I personally saw for the first time when she

12 testified here. I never took her out anywhere, let alone the Zelengora

13 Hotel nor did I ever have any contacts with that individual nor was I ever

14 present in a place where that witness was taken to.

15 Q. Did you, around the 18th of July, 1992, from one house near the

16 bus station in Foca, take Witness FWS-48 and took her off to the Donje

17 Polje settlement and rape her there?

18 A. No. As I have already said, Witness FWS-48, at that time I had

19 not met her at all nor did I ever talk to her, and I never ever took her

20 out of anywhere or take her away and rape her anywhere whatsoever or have

21 anything to do with her.

22 Q. In September or October 1992, did you visit Karaman's House and on

23 the occasion rape Witness FWS-87?

24 A. I did visit Karaman's House in the month of the September. I

25 can't remember the exact date, but it was the day of the funeral of the

Page 4611

1 individuals who had been killed at Paprat Manivje [phoen], and they had

2 been killed on the 19th or 20th of September. So I did go to the house on

3 that occasion, which is the first time that I learnt that those

4 individuals were there. I did talk Witness FWS-87, but I absolutely had

5 no physical contact with her nor did I sexually abuse her or rape her in

6 any way.

7 Q. Was that the first time you went to the house, to that house?

8 A. Yes. That was the first and last time I went to that house.

9 Q. In the middle of July 1992, did you enter the apartment of FWS-183

10 with respect to the possession of a radio transmitter? Did you loot the

11 place, and did you take her to the River Cehotina, and you and two other

12 soldiers, allegedly those two who were with you, did you rape her,

13 threatening her that she would be raped and her son slaughtered?

14 A. No. I never went into that apartment, and I don't even know where

15 that person lives to this very day. I can say with absolute certainty

16 that I never entered that apartment. I never talked to that individual.

17 I never investigated anything. I never took anybody out of the apartment

18 or took part in the rape of that individual.

19 Q. Let us go back to the 2nd of August. Did you, on the 2nd of

20 August, together with Gaga and DP6 take out -- take away from the house in

21 Osmana Djikica street Witness FWS-186, 191, and JG to an abandoned house

22 in Trnovace, the Halid Cengic house, and did you agree amongst yourself to

23 rape these witnesses so that you would -- and you would rape Witness 191,

24 if that was the plan?

25 And may we have your comments on the following: How come in the

Page 4612

1 indictment the 2nd of August is a charge made against you, that you had

2 intercourse with -- relations with four other people, and that you were in

3 Trnovace after that? Is that physically possible in view of the distance

4 of these two locations?

5 A. Whether [Realtime transcript read in error "well"] that is

6 physically possible, the Trial Chamber is there to decide, and the

7 Prosecution is there to try and prove it. But all I can say is that on

8 the 2nd of August, quite certainly I was not with those individuals who

9 took away Witness 191 and 186 and Witness JG. That is to say, I was not

10 present when they were taken to the house, when they were brought to the

11 house or taken out of that house to the other house -- what was his name?

12 -- to Halid Cengic's house in Trnovace.

13 Q. In Halid Cengic's, in Trnovace, in over a period of two months,

14 did you constantly rape Witnesses FWS-191, and did you --

15 JUDGE MUMBA: I'm sorry to interrupt you, but the answer given by

16 the accused to the previous question starts with the sentence -- I'm not

17 sure whether that's correct, "Well, that is physically possible." The

18 Trial Chamber --

19 THE INTERPRETER: "Whether that is," "whether" that is.

20 Interpreters note, "whether that is physically" --

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. It's incorrect.

22 You may proceed.

23 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

24 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation].

25 Q. Did you, in the house of Halid Cengic, over a period of two months

Page 4613

1 constantly rape Witness 191, and did you behave towards her as if she was

2 your own private property?

3 A. That is absolutely not true. As I have already said, I came to

4 Halid Cengic's house for the first time on the 9th of August. I spent two

5 days there. I came on the 14th of August for the second time, and when I

6 talked to that witness. And the third time was when I dropped by on the

7 15th of August on my way to Tivat. I didn't stay there at all. And the

8 fourth time I went to the house, was on the 28th or 29th of August when I

9 talked once again to that witness.

10 On none of these occasions, I say with absolute certainty, that I

11 ever had any sexual intercourse or contact with that individual or that I

12 abused or mistreated her in any way. I just talked to her as I have

13 said. And it was my true desire to help her, to take her to Tivat. I did

14 talk to her. She did tell me about her movements, she gave her -- she

15 gave us a lot of valuable information, but I never behaved towards that

16 person as if she were my own private property. My conduct with her was

17 always proper, and I talked to her on a footing of equality.

18 Q. Now let us go back to the time when you came to this Court. We

19 all know that you surrendered yourself to this Court. You gave yourself

20 in. Can you explain why you did it?

21 A. I found out about the indictment in 1996 when it was issued.

22 Very well. I found out about the indictment in 1996 when it was

23 issued. I had the opportunity of getting the indictment and reading it.

24 The entire indictment written as it was, was such that I only

25 found myself in relation to Witness DB and Witness 75. I don't know

Page 4614

1 exactly which count this is. And that very same moment I was prepared to

2 appear before this Court. However, due to my family reasons, I got a

3 daughter on the 11th of June, and she had a heart problem, and we had to

4 help her with that; and then also I was treating my arm, and I had to put

5 a prosthesis on my elbow, so that is the only reason why I didn't

6 surrender immediately.

7 I came on the 5th of March, 1998 -- or rather, I surrendered to

8 the SFOR on the 5th of March, 1998, in the desire to appear before this

9 Court. I said then that I felt guilty towards a person DB, and I have a

10 guilty conscious. And I still do, and it's been eight years now. The

11 reason why I gave myself in was to prove my innocence in relation to

12 everything else which is not correct, and to prove what happened on that

13 day, the 3rd of August, in relation to this person, why I have a guilty

14 conscious, why I feel this moral guilt, how did I allow myself -- how did

15 I allow this to happen?

16 Q. Mr. Kunarac, you claim that you have not done any of this that you

17 are being charged with, except for what you explained today. Can you

18 explain to us why the witnesses are accusing you, and how come they

19 recognise you?

20 A. How they recognise me? It's not a problem to recognise any one of

21 us that are facing this Court. I have been here for 29 months now, and

22 our pictures are often in the media. And also, the fact remains that I

23 did enter Partizan on the 3rd of August in the morning at 9.00, and I

24 said, "Who are the girls that were taken out by Zaga and his men?" It was

25 morning, daylight; one could see well. In the Partizan hall, there were

Page 4615

1 about 15 persons. All the persons who are in Partizan and in front of

2 Partizan could have seen me.

3 Then I took these two persons to Aladza. What happened,

4 happened. I returned them to Partizan after that again. It is quite

5 possible that while I was looking for Gordana in town, they might have

6 told the other people what happened to them. The same day I came to

7 Partizan again, again I took these persons out, and during their stay in

8 Partizan, they did not return to Partizan any more.

9 I personally think that the persons who came here to testify

10 either recognised my face through the media, maybe they saw my face before

11 and that is how they recognised me and pointed my face out; or perhaps

12 they saw me on that day if they were in that room where I came to get

13 those girls. But I assert that I had never met any one of those persons

14 then, nor did I talk to them, nor did I do anything to these persons,

15 except for these persons whom I mentioned and talked about and in the way

16 in which I described it.

17 Q. You were well known as a warrior. Do you know whether Radio

18 Sarajevo had carried a piece of news saying that you got killed?

19 A. I heard about my own death several times on Radio Sarajevo. And

20 you say that I was well known as the warrior. During those three years I

21 was mostly involved in reconnaissance. Very often I used radio links

22 because if I was in the field, that was the only way in which I could

23 establish contact with my headquarters. By using radio link -- I mean, I

24 went to school in Gorazde, and I knew quite a few people there, and I had

25 quite a few friends there. And at first, I used some secret codes that

Page 4616

1 were used for every assignment, but then everyone would recognise my

2 voice. And then after that I always used my nickname, Zaga, when I was

3 using the radio link.

4 So I used this nickname Zaga at the time I was sending telegrams,

5 receiving the telegrams, and when addressing people in the field. For

6 example, the last death of mine that was broadcast over Radio Sarajevo was

7 reported on the 12th of June, two days before I was wounded. Two days

8 later when I was actually wounded, people found out about that, too,

9 because I requested help for myself on the 14th when I was transferred to

10 the hospital to Belgrade, to the VMA. Sarajevo denied the piece of news

11 stating that I had been killed, and they said that I was transferred to

12 hospital for medical treatment after having been wounded.

13 Q. My last question for you is the following: Did you accept to

14 participate in the war for political reasons or for some other reasons,

15 patriotic or some other?

16 A. Before the war, after the war, during the war, never was I

17 interested in politics. I was never a member of any political party or

18 political organisation, regardless of whether it was a nationalistic party

19 or any other kind.

20 The reason why I came to Foca, as I said, was because first of all

21 I saw my father wounded, and then when I saw the dismembered bodies of my

22 close relatives, when I saw what the situation was like there, I came out

23 of a sense of moral obligation to help my family in that situation.

24 Throughout those three years of my stay in that area, I was only

25 interested in military tasks. I was absolutely not interested in what was

Page 4617

1 going on in town, in the free territory. I did not have time to think

2 about this. I did my best in carrying out these assignments. And during

3 that war, a few times I was awarded some medals for courage, for this and

4 that, but my exclusive reason was patriotic, to help my people in the

5 situation as it was.

6 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Finally, Your Honours, the

7 Defence has a certificate stating that the accused was never a member of

8 the SDS. We believe that it could be of some significance, and therefore

9 we would like to tender it as a Defence exhibit. You got it as number

10 101.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: What type of significance would it have, being a

12 member or not being a member of any political party?

13 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, may I say this, Your

14 Honour: Our assessment is that the SDA and the SDS created a bad climate,

15 and then as far as Foca is concerned, that is how things started.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: The Prosecution?

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No objection, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, it will be admitted into evidence. Can we have

19 the formal number, please?

20 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Document 101 will be numbered D87

21 [sic], Defence exhibit.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you, yes, proceed.

23 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] That was our last question, Your

24 Honour, and with your permission, I would just like to ask the following:

25 Since we have completed our examination-in-chief, can we visit our client

Page 4618

1 tomorrow during the regular hours when we visit them because he is now a

2 witness under oath?

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Trial Chamber's view and decision is that

4 the Defence counsel can communicate with the accused even though he's a

5 witness, but when the cross-examination starts, then you can't have

6 contact with the accused until the cross-examination is completed.

7 Re-examination, no problem.

8 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have not had any

9 contact just in case, but since we have a visit scheduled for tomorrow,

10 that's why we're putting the question now. Thank you.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: That's all right. You can contact him.

12 May I take it that we can start cross-examination on Monday?

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Oh, I thought I would start now, but if your

14 suggestion is to do it on Monday, it's fine.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Let's deal with the motions and submissions and

16 things like that.

17 Oh, I'm sorry. We haven't had a formal number for the last

18 exhibit from the Defence.

19 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The last Defence Exhibit, which

20 was numbered 101, is numbered D88. It is Defence Exhibit D88.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Let us go through the motions, submissions,

22 and all that, the ones I indicated that perhaps we can have an oral

23 response from the Prosecution. I will get Prosecution to call out the

24 motions and submissions.

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour. In regard to the --

Page 4619

1 I think I have to change the order because there are two confidential

2 matters, actually.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, we'll deal with the confidential ones later.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour. The first submission is

5 supplement to Defence submission under Rule 65 ter. That is the addition

6 of two witnesses. The Prosecution has no objections against this.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Trial Chamber will make the decision next

8 week.

9 Yes, please, the next one?

10 MS. KUO: Your Honour, I'll handle the next two. The Defence

11 submission that the expert witness statement under Rule 94 bis, and that

12 is their submission of Dr. Stanko Bejatovic, who is a law professor, and I

13 understand that the Defence wishes to present his testimony for purposes

14 of sentencing under Rule 101.


16 MS. KUO: We would have no -- well, we would, number one, not

17 accept his written submission, and so we would ask to have him

18 cross-examined. But further to that, we would ask that the Court exclude

19 a large portion of his testimony where he discusses the substantive charge

20 of rape under Yugoslav law, because our understanding is that that is

21 irrelevant. The only issue is the sentencing practice, not how the courts

22 judge the domestic crime of rape.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: So in particular, which paragraphs and pages, the

24 ones you have an objection to?

25 MS. KUO: Your Honour, unfortunately the paragraphs are not

Page 4620

1 numbered, but I would --

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Maybe we can go by pages.

3 MS. KUO: I can go by pages. Pages 1, 2, and --

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we use the Registry's page numbering, please?

5 5255?

6 MS. KUO: Yes.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: It's much easier.

8 MS. KUO: Very well, Your Honour. 5252; 5251 we object to; and

9 half of 5250, until the point where it says "For this kind of criminal

10 act, it is predicted a punishment of one to ten years imprisonment."

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Can you just repeat the pages? 5252.

12 MS. KUO: 5251, and then 5250, until it specifically mentions

13 punishment. That's the third paragraph on the page.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I don't think I've got you right. On 5250,

15 what is the last sentence?

16 MS. KUO: The last sentence on the -- that we are objecting to

17 is --

18 JUDGE MUMBA: It is the one reading "For this kind of criminal

19 act ..."?

20 MS. KUO: That's where we stop. At that point we say it's okay

21 because everything above that does not regard sentencing.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. So beginning from the paragraph numbered --

23 okay. "For this kind of criminal act it is predicted a punishment of one

24 to ten years." Is that okay?

25 MS. KUO: Yes, your honour.

Page 4621

1 JUDGE MUMBA: So the last sentence is, "She accepts that sexual

2 intercourse ...," that is it?

3 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: From that, going backwards to the very beginning of

5 the document.

6 MS. KUO: Yes.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: That is 5252, the very beginning, up to 5250, the

8 last sentence I read out. Okay.

9 What other pages and paragraphs?

10 MS. KUO: Then we do not object to the following --

11 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no. It will be easier if you simply give us the

12 paragraphs you object to.

13 MS. KUO: I understand, Your Honour I'm just trying to lead the

14 Court through because I don't actually have them marked. So if I let you

15 know where the Defence has marked paragraph 2, which is actually three

16 paragraphs, we do not object to it. We do, however, begin to object again

17 at what is numbered paragraph 3 at the bottom of 5249.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: 5249, the paragraph numbered 3. The last

19 paragraph. Up to where?

20 MS. KUO: And we also object to paragraph numbered 4.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. On 5248?

22 MS. KUO: On 5248.


24 MS. KUO: We also object to paragraph 5 on that same page.


Page 4622

1 MS. KUO: And the rest is okay, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. So the second batch is from 5249, the

3 paragraph numbered 3, which is the last paragraph on that page, up to

4 5247, the paragraph numbered 6.

5 MS. KUO: Actually, we do not object to the paragraph numbered 6.

6 We stop our objection at the bottom of 5248.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: 5248, paragraph numbered 5. Okay. The rest, no

8 objection.

9 MS. KUO: That's correct, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: And you've already stated your reasons.

11 I would like the Defence counsels to note these paragraphs and be

12 able to respond on Monday, orally, if there will be any response or

13 whatever comments.

14 The next one?

15 MS. KUO: The next matter that the Prosecution wishes to take up

16 is the response of the Defence to the Prosecutor request for leave to

17 disclose witness statements, trial transcripts, and filings to our expert

18 witness Dr. Rath.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: This is filed when?

20 MS. KUO: July 4th. We would just state very briefly that the

21 Defence has not stated a valid reason for their objection, and that our

22 wish to show the trial transcripts or at least the expert reports to this

23 forensic expert is our effort to focus our questions very specifically,

24 for purposes of rebuttal, and indeed if our expert agrees with what the

25 Defence experts say, there will be no need to call him at all.

Page 4623

1 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. The next one?

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The next two motions, Your Honour, are

3 confidential, so we would have to move into private session.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Private session, yes. May we please move into

5 private session?

6 I'm sorry. Maybe the accused can go back and sit with his

7 colleagues.

8 [Private session]

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Page 4624

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20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.37 p.m.,

21 to be reconvened on Monday, the 10th day of

22 July, 2000 at 0930 a.m.




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14 French and English transcripts.