Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5422

1 Tuesday, 12 September 2000

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Would the registrar please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: [No interpretation]

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning, witness. We are continuing this

9 morning with our examination-in-chief. Mr. Kolesar, the Trial Chamber

10 would like to remind you again that we've got the written opinion of the

11 witness, and if you can only concentrate on the highlights and a few

12 matters the witness would like to explain. Otherwise we've got it all

13 already. So let's move on, please.

14 WITNESS: DUSAN DUNJIC [Resumed]

15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Thank you

17 for cautioning me. I will do my best to be expedient in the questioning

18 of the witness. My questions will be aimed at clarifying certain points

19 which have not been covered sufficiently in the written report.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

21 Examined by Mr. Kolesar: [Continued]

22 Q. Good morning, witness. Good morning, Professor. Yesterday we

23 discussed the consequences arising from violent acts, and my last question

24 was: Which consequences may arise from such violent acts but disappear

25 after a short while?

Page 5423

1 The next question I would like you to answer is: What

2 consequences may arise from vaginal intercourse against the victim's will,

3 with the repetition of such intercourse over a short period of time,

4 within several hours or one day?

5 A. Yesterday I elaborated upon several situations when injuries arise

6 out of violent intercourse. This refers to vaginal intercourse, and I

7 will concentrate on those injuries which may be found in a vaginal violent

8 intercourse.

9 I would like to remind you once again that with -- in the case of

10 a vaginal violent intercourse between a grown-up man and a woman, there

11 occur injuries which are short term and are conditioned by the external

12 genitalia of the woman. In voluntary intercourse there is normal

13 wettening of the vagina, but with vaginal violent intercourse there is no

14 such wettening, and each contact of the male and the female genitalia

15 leads to a series of erosions on the mucus membrane. If this intercourse

16 is cruel and violent, these injuries may be deeper, these erosions may be

17 deeper. If intercourse is frequent or there are several instances of

18 intercourse within a short period of time, depending on the injuries which

19 occurred in the first intercourse, the injuries may get deeper and cover

20 deeper layers of tissue and even reach the cervix. So with such frequent

21 intercourse, injuries are deeper, and thus, as a permanent consequence,

22 they may leave scars on the mucus membrane or scars on the muscle layer,

23 which cannot be seen, of course, now, but you can see scars on the vagina.

24 Q. Is that the case with the anal intercourse?

25 A. Yes, it is the case with anal intercourse too.

Page 5424

1 Q. I will repeat my question: Is it the case also with anal

2 intercourse?

3 A. Yes. Any erosion which occurs in the first act, in the first act

4 of intercourse, assuming that it arose, may deepen with each following

5 intercourse and thus may cause an injury which may cover various layers of

6 tissue, beginning with the mucus membrane, through the muscle layer, and

7 even get deeper to the anal sphincter. So what we look for in our

8 examinations after violent intercourse, we look for these consequences,

9 consequences of violent penetration of --

10 Q. Is the build, the complexion of the victim important for such

11 consequences?

12 A. One of the reasons why forensic medical experts insist on

13 examining the victim is precisely the fact that one needs to assess the

14 build of the person and her degree of development, the build of the woman,

15 but also the degree of development of the genitalia, of sexual organs. In

16 practice, that means that we encounter cases where there are certain

17 anomalies on external sexual organs or in the -- on the labia, which make

18 it difficult for the male sexual organ to penetrate and which are

19 aggravated when the degree of development of sexual organs of the victim

20 is insufficient, and sometimes makes it impossible for the person to have

21 intercourse.

22 These may be temporary diseases or permanent diseases, temporary

23 such as insufficiently developed pelvis or permanent diseases such as

24 elephantiasis which make it difficult or impossible for the person to have

25 intercourse. If the person is unable to have intercourse, we are looking

Page 5425

1 for these particular injuries.

2 So I have spoken so far about these anatomical malformations which

3 make normal intercourse impossible. On the other hand, we have functional

4 anomalies which are most pronounced in very young persons, I mean younger

5 than 18, and frequently occur in cases of rape, and that is vaginaism.

6 This is a spasm of external sexual organs which makes it impossible for

7 the penis to penetrate deeper into the vagina. Because of that, it is

8 linked with physical injuries but also with psychological damage because

9 it causes stress, and vaginaism makes normal intercourse impossible. It

10 occurs most frequently in women who have been raped, and as a consequence,

11 cannot have normal intercourse later, even voluntary. So these functional

12 and anatomical factors are very important for the doctor who is examining

13 a victim of rape.

14 On the other hand, I would like to emphasise that very often we

15 are forced to require an examination of the accused to determine whether

16 there is an anomaly on his sexual organ which would make it impossible for

17 him to have intercourse. And from our forensic medical practice in our

18 country and abroad, we often encounter cases where certain persons, women

19 who are afraid of telling their parents or family, and therefore said that

20 they were raped rather than saying that they had intercourse.

21 And for all these reasons, it is necessary to examine the victim,

22 and in some cases also the accused. Thank you.

23 Q. The consequences of violent intercourse, primarily vaginal and

24 anal, do they require medical treatment, and if they do, what kind of

25 treatment?

Page 5426

1 A. In any case, the doctor's opinion, and not only the doctor's, is

2 that these persons need every kind of medical attention and assistance.

3 In the therapeutical sense, it is necessary to redress medical

4 consequences such as bleeding or infection or even conception. These

5 persons need to be treated to eliminate the infection, bleeding, et

6 cetera. That's one aspect. Another aspect of medical treatment is to

7 determine as soon as possible all signs of intercourse, violent

8 intercourse, and it is necessary for all changes on the body to be

9 verified.

10 So on the one hand, it is necessary to extend assistance if there

11 has been infection and to check for any signs on the body which may be

12 used in the identification of the victim, examination of the body for

13 presence of semen, taking samples from the vagina, et cetera. These are

14 the basic routines in examining a victim of rape.

15 Q. I would like to know about vaginal intercourse. For how long can

16 the bleeding persist?

17 A. The bleeding which may be found -- let me say one thing. When we

18 say bleeding, there are two things. One has to do with first intercourse

19 in cases of defloration, the breaking of hymen; and the second kind of

20 bleeding is caused by injuries. It depends on how deep the injuries are,

21 and bleeding in such cases may be longer. When I say longer, it can last

22 for a half an hour, an hour. It's an individual reaction for each person,

23 depends on coagulation of blood. But each repeated intercourse, if rape

24 were to be repeated, or if such already existing injuries were to be, were

25 to be deepened, then the bleeding would be more -- would be heavier and

Page 5427

1 longer.

2 So whether the injuries are vaginal or rectal, they're very

3 susceptible to infection, and it's very important, therefore, to examine

4 the person and see whether there are any signs of infection.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar, what is the relevance of all this in

6 the case before the Trial Chamber? You remember the ruling on the motion

7 to have some of the victims who were witnesses examined. Do you remember

8 we did say that the Prosecution are not relying on medical evidence? They

9 didn't call any. So what's the relevance of all this?

10 You did say you were going to ask for explanations, but

11 explanations better be relevant to the case before the Trial Chamber.

12 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I understand what you said, Your

13 Honour, and I remember the Chamber's decision denying our motion for

14 medical examination, but I thought that this is another way to determine

15 the relevant facts through the medical expert, facts which have to do with

16 claims of the witness related to alleged violent intercourse, be it

17 vaginal or anal.

18 I think that this is relevant because it is important for

19 determining all the elements of the charges, both torture and rape; and

20 ultimately, it is also relevant to determining the circumstances which may

21 affect the sentence.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: But the point the Trial Chamber is making is that we

23 don't need all this evidence into the details of what injuries, what all

24 the treatment is relevant and all that, because you have to remember what

25 the Prosecution case is. And if you're worried about sentence, there is a

Page 5428

1 shorter way of doing that.

2 We've already insisted, I think this is the third time or fourth

3 time, that we've got the opinion, the original opinion of the expert. We

4 don't need the details. The Trial Chamber's stand is that this is not

5 relevant to the case before the Trial Chamber. This is not the way the

6 Prosecution case was pleaded.

7 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour, when the Prosecution

8 presented its case through its witnesses, victims, witnesses, that there

9 were frequent multiple and excessive rapes committed by either one

10 perpetrator or different perpetrators, both during the course of one day

11 and during the course of a series of days, I thought that it was relevant

12 to establish whether it is possible for it to have happened the way the

13 witnesses have described. That was my line of questioning with regard to

14 this witness, expert witness. However, if the Trial Chamber does not

15 permit me to question in this way, I shall move in a different direction.

16 I shall not make a problem out of it.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Please do move in a different direction and

18 we'll see whether it is relevant.

19 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20 Q. Professor Dunjic, with the approval of the Trial Chamber, you had

21 the opportunity of reading and analysing statements of individual

22 witnesses.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. May I remind you of the following: Witness 48 confirmed in her

25 statement that during the violent intercourse that happened, the

Page 5429

1 perpetrator bit the nipples of her breasts until they bled. Can you say

2 anything in relation to injuries that are sustained by that part of a

3 woman's body? Are there permanent injuries involved? Can this kind of

4 injury be verified after a longer period of time?

5 A. Unus morsum, that is to say, injuries inflicted by teeth, by human

6 teeth, bites, are lacerations; that is to say, where the superficial layer

7 of the skin is damaged. Since it was mentioned that there was even

8 bleeding, that is to say that subcutaneous tissue was also affected. I've

9 slowed down for the interpreters, I think.

10 If this kind of an injury occurs on the skin, later, when it

11 heals, there is a scar. This scar can be verified much later, much later,

12 several years later, and it constitutes an objective proof of the fact

13 that there was a wound on that part of the body. What is very important

14 in forensic medicine is that the form of the teeth, of the jaws, either

15 the upper or the lower jaw, is used for identifying the perpetrator of

16 such an injury. When we examine the victim, we can identify possible

17 anomalies of a perpetrator if he is found, so it is of double

18 significance. It is proof of the fact that there was an injury. And if

19 there is a longer period of time and if this wound heals and leaves a

20 scar, we cannot assess when this scar came into being. It has certain

21 characteristics. A bite by human teeth is characteristic and it can be

22 used for identifying the perpetrator.

23 Q. The same witness said that she had a vascular and cerebral

24 insult. Can you tell us whether this incident is related to the alleged

25 rape?

Page 5430

1 A. I would now have to put a counter question: When did the

2 vascular/cerebral insult take place in terms of timing as related to the

3 rape?

4 Q. Unfortunately we do not have this in our evidence.

5 A. Because I cannot bring it into a causal relationship with the rape

6 if it took place later, even immediately after that. On the one hand,

7 there is excitement, but then on the other hand there are factors that

8 lead to apoplexy, that is to say, to cerebral bleeding, so I do not have

9 any relevant information enabling me to comment on this.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar, we still feel it's not relevant, the

11 details you are asking the expert to give. Again the Prosecution case is

12 not relying on medical evidence.

13 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as far as I know, in

14 the written findings of the expert we cannot find what he just told us, so

15 it was my wish to bring this up now and to acquaint the Trial Chamber with

16 it.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: We don't need it, actually. We don't need it.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Kolesar, that particular witness gave what might

19 be called non-expert evidence about her reaction. There was no

20 suggestion, was there -- perhaps you better refresh our memories if there

21 were -- of any examination of a cerebral/vascular nature at the time or

22 subsequently. Is that so?

23 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Yes. My wish was precisely to have

24 this discussed, out of the fear that her --

25 JUDGE HUNT: No, no, please. The question was: There was no

Page 5431

1 evidence from the Prosecution that there was any medical examination of

2 that witness to investigate if there had been some sort of cerebrovascular

3 incident. And please put me right if I'm wrong about that.

4 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] No, you are not wrong about it, and

5 I have understood what you have been saying, but --

6 JUDGE HUNT: If that's so, then -- what you are telling us is that

7 if the Prosecution had wanted to, they -- and had conducted such an

8 investigation, you would have been able to tell from that investigation

9 whether she had in fact had some cerebrovascular incident. That's the

10 whole point of this evidence, as I understand it.

11 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I wish to say that in the witness'

12 statement, this cerebrovascular incident of hers was recorded, and I'm

13 afraid that some day the fact that this cerebrovascular insult took place

14 is due to rape. That is why I wanted to find out --

15 JUDGE HUNT: What you are obtaining from this doctor, as I

16 understand his evidence, is that an examination, if done within a

17 reasonable time, would have discovered whether or not there had been a

18 vascular incident. That's so, isn't it? Well, the fact is there was no

19 examination. It is not suggested that an examination ten years after the

20 event would have determined something of real worth. So you are taking us

21 down a completely false line of argument. It's no part of the Prosecution

22 case that they can prove by medical means that she had it or that it

23 related to the rape, so you are fighting a non-issue. That is why we

24 think that this is irrelevant.

25 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you. May I

Page 5432

1 proceed now?

2 Q. Also let me remind you of Witness 95's statement. She claimed

3 that cigarettes were extinguished on her body. Do you remember that

4 statement, and what can you tell us about that?

5 A. Are you talking about extinguishing or lighting cigarettes?

6 Q. Yes, extinguishing. Extinguishing, of course.

7 A. Extinguishing cigarettes on any part of the body creates a

8 characteristic burn which afflicts the superficial layers of the skin.

9 Once it heals, if there was no infection, it leaves a characteristic scar

10 that is usually circular in shape. I must say that in my practice I've

11 had a large number of cases of persons who were tortured in different

12 ways. I mentioned that I examined such persons. They showed me those

13 scars on their bodies. From a forensic medical point of view, they are

14 characteristic, they are interesting scars, because they are of a regular,

15 circular shape, of course provided that there was no subsequent

16 infection. So if cigarettes were extinguished on a person's body in that

17 way, that is to say that scars were left, they can be verified until the

18 present day. In some way, that is proof that this indeed had occurred.

19 Q. Two witnesses, 87 and 75, mentioned that they were raped anally by

20 several perpetrators on several occasions. Do there have to be permanent

21 consequences in the rectum due to that?

22 JUDGE MUMBA: We've been through that, Mr. Kolesar. If you

23 remember, you did ask the doctor about the effects of violent

24 intercourse: anal, vaginal, and oral. Do you remember at the beginning,

25 and even later on, halfway? And as to whether or not there can be

Page 5433

1 permanent injuries which can be found -- we have been through that,

2 please.

3 So Witness, don't answer the question.

4 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Then I shall conclude.

5 Q. Tell me, please: As a medical expert, can you state, without

6 examining witnesses, victims, anything about the injuries that they

7 sustained due to rape or any other violent actions?

8 A. I think that any person involved in forensic medicine and who are

9 in my place now would say that without an examination it is not possible

10 to establish whether there are any effects of violent sexual intercourse,

11 not only on the genitalia, but on the body in general. It is a well-known

12 fact in forensic medicine that a normal, healthy adult woman can easily,

13 very easily, avoid sexual intercourse.

14 For us, forensic medical experts, that is the only fact that can

15 be commented upon, so I am not in a position to state my views in a

16 decided manner on any particular case from a medical point of view as to

17 whether there were any effects or what kind of effects there were only on

18 the basis of one statement unless I check out all the other facts as a

19 doctor. That is to say, I have to assess the factor of one's build as

20 well as the personality of the person who was being examined. Therefore,

21 for all of this that I study, that I was allowed to study from all these

22 statements of the witnesses who had been heard, I believe that it is

23 necessary, and I think that any forensic medical person in my place would

24 also request an examination in order to establish whether there are

25 effects, and if there are effects, what degree they have and to what

Page 5434

1 extent they go. That is to say, only after having evaluated these

2 effects, somatic and others, can an expert say whether there was violent

3 sexual intercourse or not.

4 Q. And my last question, we submitted this evidence to you with the

5 approval of the Trial Chamber, only for Witness 205 are there medical

6 documents that were attached. Please, the diagnoses that are mentioned in

7 this medical documentation, do they include symptoms that are an effect of

8 rape?

9 A. Yes, that is the only case in which medical documentation was

10 presented. I wrote about this and submitted this in written form to the

11 Trial Chamber.

12 There are elements that could point to the possibility of violent

13 sexual intercourse, that is to say, infection and bleeding. However, all

14 of that, due to the specific nature of the situation involved, can be

15 assessed in some way, and one can see whether this bleeding and this

16 infection is of some other origin. If this infection, if it occurred, and

17 one can see whether it left some consequences, or also this bleeding,

18 whether it is the effect of some internal medical problem from before or

19 whether it is due to violent sexual intercourse.

20 So these are the only facts that can be interpreted for the time

21 being. I interpreted them in writing, but I would have to assess now as

22 an expert whether this is due to the myoma, that is to say, the tumour of

23 the uterus that is mentioned there because that can also lead to bleeding,

24 or whether it is the effect of a violent sexual act.

25 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I thank you, Your Honours. I have

Page 5435

1 no further questions.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kolesar, there is a filed opinion with this

3 witness together with Jovanovic. Does he stand by it and his biography

4 also as filed? Can you ask him?

5 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I did not quite understand. I

6 omitted something, but thank you for having reminded me.

7 The written findings and the opinion of Dr. Dunjic and

8 Dr. Jovanovic is a concerted effort, and it is not -- and it was admitted

9 into evidence, but only the CV of Dr. Dunjic has to be tendered just as

10 Dr. Aleksandar Jovanovic's CV was tendered and admitted.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. My question is, does -- I'll ask the witness.

12 Do you support your joint opinion with Dr. Jovanovic?

13 A. Yes.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: I know that it was admitted yesterday and filed, I

15 just wanted this witness, his part of it, to confirm.

16 And the biography, can we have the number, Madam Registrar,

17 please, for Dr. Dunjic?

18 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The CV of Mr. Dunjic shall be

19 marked as D148.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Cross-examination, if any.

21 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --

22 JUDGE MUMBA: I'm sorry, you also want to ask questions?

23 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I have two

24 questions, and I informed my colleagues from the office of the Prosecutor

25 about that. These two questions --

Page 5436

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, you can go ahead and ask the witness.

2 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Examined by Mr. Jovanovic:

4 Q. [Interpretation] Doctor, if we have a situation where, due to

5 mechanical injury, there was a rupture of the testes, can you tell us what

6 the momentary or perhaps lasting effects of such an injury would be? Such

7 an injury, can it make it impossible or difficult to carry out sexual

8 intercourse, and for how long? And can such an injury be detected at

9 present on the condition that it took place seven or eight years ago?

10 A. An injury of the testes in a man is a very painful injury if it is

11 caused by mechanical means, as you mentioned, can lead to different

12 symptoms starting with a rupture, as you said, to the creation of a big

13 hematoma. That kind of injury in principle -- or rather, the healing of

14 such an injury takes long. This acute situation can go on for about a

15 month. However, during that period of time, it is difficult to urinate or

16 do anything that would be physically exhausting. Sexual intercourse is

17 virtually impossible. Even if there is the desire to carry out sexual

18 intercourse, then pain, through its own system, that is to say,

19 unconsciously, can lead to an impossibility of erection for carrying out

20 such sexual intercourse in a short period of time, this can last one month

21 or two months or three months, depending on the gravity of the injury

22 concerned.

23 If you're asking me about the later effects of such an injury,

24 they can be established only through an objective medical examination. If

25 there was a rupture of the testes with the creation of hematoma, in such a

Page 5437

1 particular place then a scar is created in such a place, and these scars

2 can be verified at a later date as well.

3 Q. Thank you, doctor.

4 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpreted] Thank you, Your Honours. I have no

5 further questions.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: I was just about to ask what's the relevance of this

7 evidence. There's no such plea at all.

8 Anyway, can we have cross-examination.

9 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Cross-examined by Ms. Kuo:

11 Q. Good morning, Professor Dunjic. Professor Dunjic, you yourself

12 acknowledge that there is a difference between legal expertise and medical

13 expertise. Isn't that right?

14 A. I don't think that -- I did not use the word "legal expertise."

15 The legal establishment of facts, whereas we establish medical facts.

16 That pertained to the segment where we present medical facts to the Court,

17 whether they exist or whether they do not exist. If I remember correctly,

18 it was mentioned yesterday. Is that right?

19 Q. That's correct Professor Dunjic. You mentioned that there was a

20 doctrine that stated that all rape victims should be medically examined.

21 That doctrine that you mentioned is a medical doctrine, right?

22 A. Yes. That is forensic medical doctrine that victims and suspects

23 have to be medically examined in order to establish the objective facts,

24 whether there are injuries, and if there are injuries, they have to be

25 verified and they have to be interpreted, whether they were created during

Page 5438

1 a particular act or whether they were created later, or perhaps they

2 existed before the act, and now they are being ascribed to that particular

3 act. That is why the examination is carried out. I am talking to you as

4 a physician now.

5 The first and foremost objective of the examination is to help the

6 victim, and then to possibly identify all these traces and verify them,

7 which is relevant to the court in terms of evidence. That is the sense in

8 which I spoke.

9 Q. And on page 2 of your report where you mention that rape must be

10 supported by medical documentation, that is also based on your medical

11 background. That is not something that is legally required, isn't that

12 right, the statement that rape must be supported by medical documentation?

13 A. That is a medical view. That is the view of us doctors of

14 forensic medicine precisely because of this kind of situation.

15 Let me speak in terms of percentage points. Half of the women who

16 report themselves to be rape victims weren't actually raped, and half of

17 them either want to deceive a young man or blackmail him or --

18 Q. Excuse me, Professor, you're here as a medical expert, and please

19 stick with your medical expertise, okay? The Court does not need to hear

20 your speculations on these matters, okay? I asked you a very simple

21 question, and please just answer, and you have. Thank you.

22 Professor Dunjic, wouldn't you agree that the injuries that could

23 be sustained during a rape can be divided into two basic categories:

24 Number one, the injuries sustained during the resistance to the rape, and

25 the other are the injuries sustained through the actual penetration, the

Page 5439

1 act of rape itself, right? Those are two different categories.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And if there were an instance of rape where a woman did not

4 physically resist because, for instance, a gun were held to her head, then

5 wouldn't you agree that there would not be any physical injuries of

6 resistance?

7 A. I would agree only if I would not find them. I have to carry out

8 an examination in order to ascertain that something does not exist. It is

9 only when I examine that I can say that something exists or does not

10 exist, regardless of the way in which something was carried out.

11 A forensic medical expert can only comment on a fact that he

12 establishes or does not establish. So something either exists or does not

13 exist. If it does not exist, of course I do not make any comments; there

14 are no injuries, and then it is up to the legal people to ascertain how

15 this took place.

16 I can only ascertain whether there was sexual intercourse or

17 whether there was not sexual intercourse, whether there were injuries or

18 whether there were not injuries, but only once I carry out an

19 examination. Until then, I cannot make any comment at all.

20 Of course, serious threats such as having a person held at

21 gunpoint, there can be no injuries on the body that were due to

22 resistance, and also perhaps not even on the genitalia, but I cannot say

23 that. I cannot know that until I examine a person. That is why we as

24 doctors insist upon an examination.

25 Q. Thank you, Professor.

Page 5440

1 Now, within the category of injuries that could occur as a result

2 of the rape itself, and in your report you detailed redness and soreness

3 and abrasions, isn't it true that these type of injuries disappear very

4 quickly and, in fact, according to your report, perhaps within two weeks

5 of the injury?

6 A. Well, yes, in a very short interval, they disappear. But again, I

7 must underline that this depends on the intensity and size, magnitude of

8 these injuries. If the injuries are smaller, then redness, hematoma,

9 abrasion will relatively pass sooner; but if they are deeper and bigger,

10 then they will last longer, and then there's the possibility of secondary

11 infection and other complications. And if they are very pronounced in

12 terms of deeper wounds, injuries, then they leave as an effect scars; and

13 they can be identified later, these scars, as indirect evidence of the

14 fact that there had been a wound there in that place.

15 Q. Professor, isn't it true that in the vast majority of rape cases,

16 the injuries disappear within a very short period of time, two weeks? The

17 scars -- I understand and we'll talk about that later, the scars that have

18 lasting effect. But isn't it true that in the vast majority of rape

19 cases, these kind of scars [sic] disappear very quickly?

20 A. Well, wounds. I mean, there is not a reliable percentage from the

21 point of view of medicine, that is to say, that these changes that occur

22 due to rape heal quickly. I cannot say what the percentage is of women

23 whose wounds heal quickly. Of course, there is a normal process of

24 healing of these wounds, but I can comment upon them only if I confirm

25 them before that, or preclude the possibility of them having taken place.

Page 5441

1 And I can establish that only through direct examination.

2 So it can be accepted conditionally that quite a few of them pass

3 quickly if someone did conduct an examination. Many women do not report

4 that they had been raped, and this goes by unnoticed. That,

5 unfortunately, is the greatest tragedy today, that things like that do

6 take place today. However, I must say as a forensic man who is in the

7 role of an expert who is supposed to confirm something or deny something,

8 I have to have objective findings for each and every individual case.

9 That is to say, that if someone claims to have been raped and to have had

10 prolonged bleeding, I have to accept this fact, examine it, analyse it,

11 and to see whether it is related to the ailment itself or the act of rape.

12 Q. Professor, we are not asking you or I am not asking you at this --

13 in this case to make a specific finding on a specific case, so please rest

14 assured about that. I'm asking you a general question in your expertise

15 about how the body functions. And isn't it true that the kind of injuries

16 you're talking about to the genitalia, an area of the body where there is

17 a lot of blood flow, those kind of injuries tend quite naturally to heal.

18 That's what the body does, right? You're nodding your head.

19 A. That is correct. That is correct.

20 Q. In a rare number of cases, as you have described, there may be

21 some scar from deep muscle or tissue injury; right? You've discussed

22 that. Yes or no?

23 A. I cannot give you such a simple answer in rare cases, because no

24 one had put this into tables and percentage points until now. If there

25 are wounds that leave scars, we will find them. I cannot say what the

Page 5442

1 percentage is in relation to the number of women raped as far as such

2 wounds are concerned. That is why I cannot give you a direct answer in

3 terms of yes or no.

4 Q. In your --

5 A. At any rate --

6 Q. Professor Dunjic, you have established your credentials as an

7 expert in this field through your years of experience, and I would ask you

8 to draw on that experience in examining rape victims to tell us whether

9 you have found it common -- and I use that as a layman. I don't ask you

10 for a specific percentage, but I ask you whether you find it to be common

11 for there to be deep scars from rape that persist after eight years. Do

12 you find that common?

13 A. No. I must say that this does not happen very often, because when

14 I worked, the conditions under which I worked -- I mean, these were

15 individual rapes of one perpetrator raping one woman. Since you reminded

16 me of my experience, I must say that I did have the opportunity of talking

17 to women who were raped by a large number of men; however -- in a

18 situation of war, in a situation of war, when I studied torture, and most

19 of these women had wounds on their bodies that were -- that took place

20 during -- that were sustained during the rape itself. They were beaten

21 when defending themselves or during the rape itself.

22 On the genitalia, when I examined them -- this was a year or two

23 after the rape -- they most often did not have menstruation at all or they

24 had irregular periods, and also there were wounds on their genitalia.

25 However, I must underline that none of these persons who had had frequent

Page 5443

1 violent sexual intercourse did not mention [as interpreted] during the

2 anamnesis that she had had long-term bleeding or wounds of the genitalia.

3 They had wounds on their bodies and around the genitalia, as we had

4 divided them before.

5 Q. And the incidents that you're describing or the cases that you're

6 describing, you said were medical examinations one or two years after the

7 incident, right, just so I'm clear about that.

8 A. Yes. And if you will permit me, this in a way complicates a

9 possibility of determining the case, that is, the passage of time.

10 However, the mental effects or consequences are very difficult, and they

11 rise. As the bodily injuries subside, the mental traumas or the effects

12 of such an act increase. This is why we did a comparative examination of

13 both the mental and bodily examination of such victims.

14 Q. So what you're saying, then, Professor, is that there are

15 injuries, psychological injuries, even pain, which cannot be determined by

16 a physical examination; right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now, let's talk about the passage of time, as you have brought

19 up. If you were to find injuries, such as scars, in the genitalia eight

20 years after an event occurred, you would not be able to link that scar to

21 a specific incident of rape, could you? I mean, there could have been

22 intervening causes; right?

23 A. Yes, that is correct. However, this is why a medical examination

24 is conducted in the first place. We first try to do an exploration or an

25 examination of a person and then we also compare it with information that

Page 5444

1 we have on what had happened until that point. Now, then taking into

2 account all these facts and lining them up, we can establish with a larger

3 or a lesser degree of probability that the scar which has been identified,

4 if it had been identified, may be connected to this forcible sexual

5 intercourse or not. But it is up to a physician to make such an

6 assessment and present it.

7 Q. Well, Doctor, I know that you're resisting making any sort of

8 conclusions about an individual case, so I'm going to ask you these

9 questions in a purely hypothetical way, and so I would wish you to answer

10 it in a purely --

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. If a woman had been raped and did not seek medical attention

13 because she didn't want to have to discuss this with anyone, it would be

14 logical, wouldn't it, that there wouldn't have been a medical examination

15 done very soon after the incident? Just a "yes" or "no." If she doesn't

16 seek it, it doesn't exist.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And if circumstances prevented her from seeking medical

19 examination, likewise, no medical results shortly after the incident would

20 exist?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. If a medical examination were to be done on that woman several

23 years later, would those results, whether there be a scar found or not, be

24 helpful at all in determining whether the incident of rape actually

25 occurred, let's say, hypothetically, eight years earlier? Or would there

Page 5445

1 be too many intervening causes that would prevent you from reaching any

2 sort of medical conclusion about the cause of, let's say, again

3 hypothetically, a scar in the genitalia? There are too many variables in

4 that case for you to say for sure, isn't that right, that rape occurred or

5 that rape did not occur?

6 A. I cannot determine whether the rape did occur or not. It is up to

7 you. What I can determine are the facts which may assist you to establish

8 the truth, whether such injuries did take place or not. But the point

9 that I'm trying to get across here -- and I speak on behalf of my

10 profession here -- I need to conduct an examination in order to be able at

11 all to give you an opportunity to reach such conclusion or not.

12 I need to take you back to -- we keep talking about scars, scar

13 tissue, injuries. I told you what types of injuries may occur in which

14 situations. But what is much more important -- and you legal

15 professionals always subject us medical professionals -- you always

16 criticise us on this -- we have to establish whether sexual intercourse

17 was possible at all, whether the person had the physical constitution.

18 For instance, very young persons have underdeveloped sexual organs.

19 Forcible sexual intercourse produces very serious injuries in and around

20 sexual organs, and that has to be established. In addition, we have

21 infections and further complications. So first I have to establish that a

22 person is physically mature enough to be able to have sexual intercourse.

23 Then I have to proceed and establish whether there were any

24 injuries due to a forcible intercourse. Then I also take into account

25 other medical health conditions, childbirth or any other things. I have

Page 5446

1 to take that into account. And after I have established all these facts,

2 I turn that over to you, and you will be able then to determine and

3 establish if a rape had occurred or not. That is my role.

4 Q. Thank you, Professor. Professor Dunjic, you mentioned some

5 anatomical malformations as well as functional malformations that might

6 make sexual intercourse impossible. Those malformations are

7 abnormalities, isn't that right, to use another word? They're not the

8 norm; you would not expect that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now, turning to some questions that Mr. Jovanovic asked you:

11 Isn't it true that the rupture of the testes, which was posed to you,

12 could mean that a man would require manual or oral stimulation of his

13 penis to get an erection?

14 A. No manual or oral stimulation can help in such cases. There may

15 be desire, but due to very intense pain, it is impossible to reach an

16 erection because of the pain. It is very painful and our will has to be

17 involved in that. Over a longer period of time, such a situation may

18 produce impotence in a man, of shorter term or even long term.

19 Q. Let me rephrase the question, then. In such a physical situation,

20 whether there's a rupture of the testes -- actually, let me get this

21 clarified. Is that also -- could that be described as an injury to the

22 scrotum or is that completely different?

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Kuo, do you find this relevant or is it because

24 the question was posed by Mr. Jovanovic?

25 MS. KUO: It's both, Your Honour. We have some witness statements

Page 5447

1 from Defence witnesses that bring this subject up in regard to the accused

2 Vukovic.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: The witnesses who are yet to come?

4 MS. KUO: Yes, and this is why we believe that there is some

5 relevance to it.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Trial Chamber is a bit sceptical, but the

7 point is the accused himself didn't give evidence to lead to this type of

8 defence at all. You can go ahead.

9 MS. KUO: Perhaps just to let the Court know -- and please, if

10 Mr. Vukovic's lawyers object to our bringing this up at this point, they

11 can -- we are in possession of some witness statements from the Defence

12 for Mr. Vukovic that state that Mr. Vukovic had these kinds of injuries,

13 and I believe that their defence is therefore it was impossible for him to

14 have raped women. And since we believe that the rapes did occur, we would

15 like to establish this.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. You go ahead. But the point is, he himself

17 didn't give any evidence to that. But go ahead.

18 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Q. Just to clarify, a rupture to the testes is the same as an injury

20 to the scrotum, or is it completely different?

21 A. The scrotum is the skin which envelops the testes. The

22 scrotum -- an injury to the scrotum is implied in an injury of testes. It

23 is like having a walnut and its shell, if you will.

24 Q. Thank you, Professor. Then let me ask you the question. Are you

25 saying, then, that if a man had such an injury, a rupture of the testes,

Page 5448

1 and such an injury to the scrotum, that he would still have the desire to

2 have sexual stimulation and may even attempt to have his penis stimulated,

3 even if it were unsuccessful, that he might attempt to have his penis

4 nevertheless stimulated even if he did not achieve erection, full

5 erection? Yes?

6 A. Yes. I said that he may have desire but no ability to reach an

7 erection, and the pain is such that he very quickly abandons the attempt.

8 Q. And finally, Professor Dunjic, you described how in some cases it

9 would be necessary to make an examination of an accused. In this case you

10 did not perform any medical examination of any of the accused; isn't that

11 right?

12 A. No, I did not, but I am prepared to do so if I am allowed or asked

13 to do so. There is no reason not to.

14 MS. KUO: Thank you very much. No further questions.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Any re-examination?

16 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you very much, Doctor, for giving your

18 testimony to the Tribunal. You are free. You may go.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20 [The witness withdrew]

21 [The witness entered court]

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning, witness. Please make the solemn

23 declaration.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning. I solemnly declare

25 that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Page 5449

1 WITNESS: SANDA RASKOVIC-IVIC

2 [Witness answered through interpreter]

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Please be seated.

4 Examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

5 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Dr. Raskovic.

6 A. Good morning.

7 Q. Will you please state your full name and give us your profession?

8 A. My name is Dr. Sanda Raskovic-Ivic, psychiatrist and

9 psychotherapist. I work at the psychiatric hospital, and I'm the director

10 of the centre for psychoses, and I'm also a, I'm also a doctor.

11 Q. Witness, the Trial Chamber has your curriculum vitae and your

12 publications. I will ask you to very briefly list your professional

13 articles.

14 A. As I said, I'm a psychiatrist and psychotherapist. In addition to

15 my PhD, I have a book on aggression and somewhere between 50 and 60 of

16 scientific articles from various fields, but my speciality are

17 psychological traumas and their consequences, and I have been involved in

18 that since 1991 when I became a refugee myself, leaving Zagreb to come to

19 Belgrade. This is when I first engaged in this topic, and I mostly

20 specialised in tracking female victims of these events.

21 In 1994 I was in the United States and Canada where I worked with

22 the organisation called "Voice of Women." I gave some lectures in the

23 so-called rape centres and at some universities, and this collaboration

24 continues today in a more sporadic way.

25 My interest in the topic of rape dates back from before 1991. In

Page 5450

1 Zagreb I worked with rape victims in peacetime situation, and then after

2 1992 I did a lot of research in -- of rapes in the wartime situations.

3 Q. You said that since 1994 you have especially worked with female

4 victims of rape and wartime traumas. Can you give us some idea of what

5 your work has led you to conclude in that respect?

6 A. I can break down my work with the female victims into two stages.

7 I worked with these women immediately after their traumatic experiences,

8 but as I am a psychotherapist, I engaged in psychotherapy and long-term

9 psychotherapeutic treatment of the victims of war. In fact, what I am

10 involved in are the effects of these traumas, the effects of traumas

11 suffered by women, of women, and they can be grouped in three categories.

12 One are the minor consequences, and then medium consequences, and serious

13 consequences.

14 The minor consequences consist of social isolation, nightmares,

15 insomnia, difficulties in establishing the so-called object relations,

16 which is a professional term for love relations. Women find it very hard

17 to establish such relations following these traumas, and psychotherapy

18 helps in that.

19 The medium range consequences are phobias, depressions; and the

20 serious consequences are psychoses, including two categories. One is

21 psychotic depression, and one is paranoid syndrome.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, before we go ahead. Could we have the CV

23 and the expert opinion admitted into evidence, if that is your wish? They

24 were filed, but they are not admitted into evidence. Do you wish to do

25 that now?

Page 5451

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I was going to

2 tender them at the end of my examination, but following your suggestion,

3 I'm going to do it now.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Any objection from the Prosecution?

5 MS. KUO: No objection, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the numbers for the CV and the expert

7 opinion?

8 I was looking through the expert opinion. I need some help from

9 the Prosecution. Is there anything discussed here which was taken from a

10 statement which was admitted under seal so that the same protection can

11 hold? Is there anything in the opinion of this witness?

12 MS. KUO: I believe anytime there is reference made to the

13 individual witnesses, those were all taken from the statements of the

14 witnesses rather than open testimony.

15 JUDGE HUNT: The question was, were the statements admitted under

16 seal?

17 MS. KUO: I believe all the statements were admitted under seals,

18 Your Honours.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, to protect their identity.

20 MS. KUO: That's correct.

21 JUDGE HUNT: So is any of the information that has been reproduced

22 in this opinion material which should not be made public? None of it

23 identifies the witness other than by number.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, because only the numbers are used, so --

25 MS. KUO: I understand that, Your Honour. I guess I'm a little

Page 5452

1 bit confused. At the point when the witness statements were admitted at

2 trial, the statements in their entirety were sealed.

3 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, but --

4 MS. KUO: So --

5 JUDGE HUNT: -- the question you are being asked is whether we

6 need to have this document under seal. That's the point. And if there is

7 anything in it which reveals material which should not be revealed, it

8 will have to go under seal. That was the point of the question that was

9 asked of you. It shouldn't be a difficult question to answer.

10 MS. KUO: It is slightly difficult, Your Honour, because I'm not

11 sure what the ramifications are from the Court ruling that the statement

12 be sealed. If the entire statement is sealed by this Court and the

13 witness is therefore relying on those documents, regardless of my --

14 JUDGE HUNT: No, no, no. They were all cross-examined on.

15 Ms. Pilipovic used to take us through sentence by sentence.

16 I really don't see what the problem is. If all of this material

17 was revealed in public, the fact that they were sealed doesn't really

18 matter.

19 MS. KUO: Very well, Your Honour. Under those circumstances, for

20 that purpose, there's not a problem. However, there are some witnesses

21 who testified in closed session, and for those witnesses there may be a

22 problem.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: So we should have the opinion -- or maybe we can

24 decide it later.

25 MS. KUO: We can certainly decide it on a case by case. I can

Page 5453

1 give you the numbers of the witnesses who testified under seal, if you

2 would like.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the numbers of the CV first and the

4 expert opinion?

5 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The CV shall be marked as D149,

6 and the expert opinion shall be marked as D150.

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE MUMBA: So my instructions are that to be on the safe side,

9 the CV will be open; the opinion will be temporarily under seal until the

10 Prosecution advise the specific paragraphs. Otherwise, it will be open,

11 but for the moment it's under seal.

12 Can we proceed? What I want to explain to you, counsel, is, and

13 to the witness as well, this expert opinion by yourself is received into

14 evidence, and is quite detailed. As you can see, counsel, it goes up to

15 28 pages. So the Trial Chamber does not wish to have a repetition of what

16 you have written here because it is already entered into evidence on

17 record, so all that we shall be asking counsel to do is perhaps to seek

18 clarification of a few matters that you have discussed here, not the

19 details, because we already have them here, and we don't want a

20 repetition. All right, counsel?

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it's perfectly

22 clear, and I am only going to ask several questions to try to clarify a

23 few points, to just simply take advantage of Dr. Raskovic-Ivic's presence

24 here.

25 Q. You mentioned some of the effects that you found with rape

Page 5454

1 victims, and you said that there are always psychological changes that

2 follow rapes.

3 A. Unfortunately, I have seen no rape victim who did not suffer

4 psychological consequences.

5 Q. You said that serious consequences included --

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, can you wait? The interpreters are having

7 a problem. You wait after the witness has finished, then you can start.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Can you hear the translation as it's going? I can

9 hear it without even --

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear it very well.

11 JUDGE HUNT: So just wait until it's finished, and then ask the

12 question. Mr. Kolesar should do the same.

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I think that we're still not

14 properly focussed, perhaps.

15 Q. When discussing consequences suffered by the rape victims, if I

16 understood you correctly, the serious consequences include psychoses?

17 A. Yes, psychoses of a depressive [realtime transcript read in error

18 "key pressive"] and paranoid type. To avoid any confusion, schizophrenia

19 is not a consequence of rape, only the other two, depression and paranoid

20 syndrome.

21 Q. In your expert opinion, does the lack of such consequences

22 preclude the existence of rape?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Do the consequences which you have described as serious, can such

25 consequences disappear without therapy?

Page 5455

1 A. Unfortunately, a psychoses is a condition that requires a

2 multidisciplinary psychiatric treatment, both psychotherapy and also

3 medication, and unfortunately, it cannot disappear without a very

4 consequently run treatment.

5 Q. If there is a victim who describes symptoms of such psychological

6 changes, can we determine whether there are serious consequences of such a

7 trauma, of such a victim based on those statements?

8 A. If the victim is showing symptoms which can be identified as

9 paranoid or depressive, we can talk -- we can say that they -- it, it does

10 exist, but we need to also provide medical examination.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

12 MS. LOPICIC: Your Honour, on page 32, row 24 and 25, there is a

13 proposed question, and the response on the page 33, row 1, is "no." As I

14 heard, the expert witness answered "yes."

15 JUDGE MUMBA: The question is, "In your expert opinion, does the

16 lack of such consequences preclude the existence of rape," and the answer

17 we have recorded is "no," which appears to be --

18 JUDGE HUNT: We better ask the witness again.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, can you ask the witness again. But it's a

20 question following the context of the earlier discussion.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

22 Q. If there is no psychosis --

23 A. The answer is no. There are -- the question is --

24 THE INTERPRETER: Excuse me, can the question and answer be

25 repeated again?

Page 5456

1 JUDGE MUMBA: The interpreter is asking that can the question and

2 the answer be repeated because the interpreter didn't pick up the question

3 and the answer. Can you just repeat the question we were discussing as to

4 whether the answer was "yes" or "no."

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we just clear that? Can we just clear that?

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I just don't know whether the

8 interpreters did not hear the previous question before this question that

9 I'm putting now.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: It was the question that Ms. Lopicic talked about.

11 Yes, maybe we adjourn now. You go through the transcript.

12 JUDGE HUNT: I've got it here. The question was, "In your expert

13 opinion, does the lack of such consequences," that's schizophrenia,

14 "preclude the existence of rape?" And the answer was --

15 A. No, not schizophrenia.

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Not schizophrenia, psychosis?

18 A. Psychosis.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Let's go back. Can I read them to you?

20 "Q. When discussing consequences suffered by the rape

21 victims, if I understood you correctly, the serious

22 consequences including psychoses?

23 A. Yes, psychoses are the `key pressive' and paranoid type."

24 I don't think that's properly recorded.

25 "To avoid any confusion, schizophrenia is not a consequence of

Page 5457

1 rape, only the other two, depression and paranoid syndrome."

2 Now, that was either a question or an answer; it's not clear. Then:

3 "Q. In your expert opinion, does the lack of such

4 consequences preclude the existence of rape?"

5 And the answer recorded is "no."

6 Now, Ms. Lopcic said she heard the answer as "yes," and what we

7 have suggested was, is you might like to ask her that series of questions

8 again, perhaps after the break, so that the witness can give us what

9 she --

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

11 JUDGE HUNT: -- said, however it might have been interpreted.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: So we'll break off now.

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: And we'll resume our proceedings at 11.30 this

15 morning.

16 --- Recess taken at 11.03 a.m.

17 --- On resuming at 11.32 a.m.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We are continuing with examination-in-chief of

19 the expert witness. Counsel, please continue.

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Does rape always have to lead to psychological changes in the

22 victim?

23 A. Yes. Rape always has to lead to psychological changes in the

24 victim.

25 Q. When you were explaining the consequences in victims of rape, you

Page 5458

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5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

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24

25

Page 5459

1 mentioned three types of consequences, and if I understood you correctly,

2 among the grave psychological consequences you count psychosis.

3 A. Correct. Psychoses are the gravest psychological change which

4 appear as late sequels, late consequences of the act of rape.

5 Q. Does the absence of such psychosis in alleged victims of rape mean

6 that there are no grave consequences?

7 A. Yes. If there are no psychoses, then there are no grave

8 consequences.

9 Q. Do consequences which you described as grave and serious, can they

10 disappear without treatment, without psychotherapy?

11 A. Regrettably not. Psychological consequences can hardly disappear

12 spontaneously without psychotherapy, but if psychoses appear, they require

13 combined psychiatric treatment, pharmacotherapy, and psychotherapy. So

14 there can be no spontaneous cure; it cannot just go away by itself.

15 Q. By approval of the Trial Chamber, you had the opportunity to

16 familiarise yourself with witness statements, with the testimony of

17 Witnesses 48, 50, 75, 87, 190, 205, and 175.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Can you tell us, did you encounter in their testimonies any data

20 which would say that any of them had treatment?

21 A. In the statements of those witnesses, I did not find any medical

22 documentation or their own statements to the effect that they had received

23 treatment or psychotherapy. One of the witnesses states that she had

24 received psychotherapy from her sister, but I can say here that Freud said

25 that psychotherapy cannot be given by a close friend or a relative.

Page 5460

1 Psychotherapy can be administered to a patient or a client by a person who

2 is unbiased, who is not a close friend or a relative, and the only

3 psychotherapy that can be given by close friends or relatives is hypnosis,

4 according to Milton Ericson. It may have been a conversation, a

5 well-intended attempt to help the victim, but it cannot be called

6 psychotherapy.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, don't have the witness repeat what is here,

8 because her answer is already here. She shouldn't be asked to repeat what

9 is already here. It's already on record.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, but I only

11 wanted, with some brief questions, to make a summary of all the witness

12 statements and note whether or not they had received treatment.

13 Q. So from the viewpoint of your profession, the stress that was

14 suffered due to the incident can cause amnesia or difficulties in

15 remembering?

16 A. Yes, it can cause amnesia or difficulties in remembering the

17 incident which led to the stress.

18 Q. Does this inability to remember in some witnesses, whose

19 statements you had the opportunity to see, can this inability to remember

20 be interpreted as being their lack of desire to answer questions?

21 A. Yes. It can also be avoidance of answers. Inability to remember

22 may be also caused by reluctance to answer questions, to discuss the

23 incident, or it can be the consequence of the stress itself.

24 Q. As far as I understood, amnesia or inability to remember may be

25 manipulative.

Page 5461

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Can you please answer: What are the consequences, and how are

3 they related to the act of rape itself, and what are the consequences of

4 torture and what is their correlation?

5 A. As a psychiatrist, I usually deal with late consequences of rape.

6 Literature in this area is inconsistent, and statistical figures go

7 between 30 and 60 per cent, and literature most often mentions the

8 percentage of 30, 30 per cent of women in wartime develops later, delayed

9 consequences of rape, and these consequences are all the harder and all

10 the more intense if rape was combined with torture. So these would be the

11 delayed consequences of rape.

12 Q. If you have in front of you a person who says that in a period of

13 40 days she was raped by 150 men, can such a person be communicating with

14 you without you noticing that she had suffered any changes, physical or

15 psychological?

16 A. I would say that would be impossible because I have had experience

17 with women who were raped in peacetime and in wartime, and if a woman was

18 raped by 150 men, no matter in what -- no matter what the duration of the

19 period was, she would be certain to have very serious physical

20 consequences, let alone psychological consequences. That is an enormous

21 attack on the psyche of each woman, and that would lead to such serious

22 consequences that it could not but be obvious.

23 Q. Finally, could you give us a final conclusion. What would be your

24 professional opinion based on the expertise you have conducted?

25 A. I have read the statements of these women, and it was very

Page 5462

1 difficult for me, both as a psychiatrist and as a woman, to come to a

2 definite conclusion. All these stories are very painful, but still I have

3 not been able to detect the grave consequences one would expect to arise

4 from incidents described by the witnesses.

5 What surprised me was the lack of medical documentation, the

6 absence of psychological testing, psychological exploration, and certainly

7 the lack of psychological treatment of these persons, especially since

8 they had gone to third countries since that time, third countries in which

9 psychological treatment is available and common.

10 As you lawyers say, "Quid non es in actus non es in mundo"; "What

11 is not in enactments not does not exist in the world," so what is not

12 stated in medical documentation, or if there is a lack of medical

13 documentation, that means that the thing didn't happen at all. It is very

14 hard for me to say this, but there is no medical documentation, or I have

15 not seen it.

16 So there is a large void, a large -- a major divergence between

17 the stories of the witnesses and the medical documentation which would

18 attest to consequences which had to develop if all these things had indeed

19 happened. I cannot come to any conclusions or preempt decisions, but I

20 can really not say what that was all about.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have finished with

22 the questioning. Thank you.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Any other counsel who wishes to ask questions of

24 this witness? Yes, Mr. Kolesar. Not asking the witness to repeat what is

25 already here and what has already been stated through the questioning of

Page 5463

1 your colleague.

2 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I understood all your

3 concerns and comments. I will ask one direct question which is not

4 covered by the report and has been raised today partially.

5 Examined by Mr. Kolesar:

6 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon. As I said, I will ask you a

7 direct question.

8 Today when you were answering a question asked by my colleague,

9 you spoke about the phenomenon of amnesia. You had the opportunity to

10 read the statement of Witness 87. I will remind you that this witness,

11 allegedly against her will, was 40 days in one apartment. It was the

12 apartment of Mr. Kovac.

13 Two events are important to me and have to do with the phenomenon

14 of amnesia. The first thing is, when she was forced to undress and to

15 dance naked on the table, and when she was asked by the Prosecutor to give

16 more details, the witness just repeated that she had to undress and dance

17 naked and would give no more details.

18 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpreted] That, I will remind the Court, was

19 discussed on the 4th of April this year.

20 Q. The second statement was that they were to be taken naked through

21 the city, and the witness later said that they rarely went to the city,

22 but they were fully dressed. When asked by the Prosecutor, the witness

23 said she did not remember.

24 I'm asking you, is it possible for the witness not to remember and

25 not to give any details?

Page 5464

1 A. I already said that inability to remember may be a disease, or it

2 may be a reluctance to discuss things, or it may be manipulative. Without

3 medical documentation, of course, I cannot give you a conclusion or an

4 expert opinion because the girl only said she did not remember, but since

5 there is no -- there has been no psychological exploration at all or

6 medical examination, I cannot say whether her amnesia is caused by -- is

7 psychological in nature, whether she developed it as a mechanism of

8 defence, or it is manipulative.

9 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Cross-examination, if any.

11 Cross-examined by Ms. Kuo:

12 Q. Good morning, Dr. Raskovic-Ivic. In your testimony today, you

13 stated that all rape victims suffer psychological consequences. Isn't it

14 true that all suffer differently?

15 A. Yes. Women suffer differently because the capacity to adapt of

16 every person -- I'm not talking about women only, I'm talking about human

17 kind, I'm talking about human beings. The capacity to adapt of every

18 person in the world is different; therefore, suffering is different, but

19 psychological consequences have to remain.

20 Q. You discussed the different effects of trauma, the three different

21 types, the minor, medium, and serious, correct? In your report --

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. In your report, you focussed very much on post-traumatic syndrome

24 or post-traumatic stress disorder, whichever term you wish, correct?

25 A. Yes, yes.

Page 5465

1 Q. And I just want to have a few things clarified with regard to that

2 particular disorder. It's not true, is it, that every woman who has been

3 raped will develop post-traumatic stress syndrome. Some will not?

4 A. Exactly. Not every woman has to develop post-traumatic stress

5 syndrome, nor does every woman have to develop late consequences, delayed

6 sequels. One per cent -- a certain percentage, that is to say, 30 per

7 cent of all women concerned develop later consequences of the rape, not of

8 the post-traumatic stress syndrome. Some are due to the post-traumatic

9 stress syndrome. However, sometimes women, let us call it the

10 post-traumatic stress syndrome, they sometimes go through that by

11 resorting to other defence mechanisms, trying to adapt in a different way,

12 and this leads to the development of maladaptive systems which later on

13 lead to yet other sequels that then can be divided into the three types I

14 mentioned.

15 Q. Now, one of the hallmarks of post-traumatic stress syndrome is

16 airing a traumatic incident, right? In other words, if you fail to

17 discuss the incident, you're more likely to have problems later, correct?

18 A. As far as the post-traumatic stress syndrome is concerned, there

19 is a need to discuss it. However, it is better to talk about it than to

20 keep silent about it, to sweep it under the rug, because if you do not

21 speak about it, if you do not testify about it, if you conceal it,

22 concealing symptoms can later lead to graver consequences.

23 I did not deal in post-traumatic stress syndrome very much, I

24 dealt with the later consequences that occur. I am a psychotherapist. I

25 deal with women who had already left the war zones, who had somehow healed

Page 5466

1 their bodies, and then under the pressure of psychological symptoms, they

2 came to see me. I am talking from the point of view of later consequences

3 of rape, not later consequences of the post-traumatic stress syndrome.

4 JUDGE HUNT: Just a moment. Would the witness please move the

5 microphone a little bit away from her face? You can hear her breathing,

6 which is very distracting, if I may say so.

7 A. I do apologise, I do apologise.

8 MS. KUO:

9 Q. So generally, Dr. Raskovic-Ivic, if a person were able to talk

10 about a traumatic experience such as a rape, the likelihood of that person

11 being able to adapt in one's life would be greater, in general; is that

12 right?

13 A. The likelihood of a person being able to adapt in one's life would

14 be greater if that person talked, but it is very important who that person

15 talks to. It is not all the same whether the person talks to a

16 professional, that is to say, a psychiatrist or a psychologist, who will

17 guide that person and help her develop such mechanisms of defence that

18 will be constructive, whereby she will be able to enter a normal life.

19 Or, on the other hand, if she talks to her women friends, her neighbours,

20 her family, that would certainly make her situation easier, but that can

21 be a double-edged sword. She can also sink into different defence

22 mechanisms that can lead to an even graver state of mind.

23 Q. So again, in general, it's better to seek professional help, but

24 speaking to anybody who is a supportive person helps; correct?

25 A. It helps. Talking helps. The Bible even says so: "At first

Page 5467

1 there was the word, and the word came from God." But I think that a

2 psychiatrist and a psychologist are indispensable for taking part in the

3 process that follows after rape.

4 Q. Isn't it true, Doctor, that there are many women, indeed very many

5 individuals, who are reluctant to seek psychiatric professional help, for

6 whatever reason?

7 A. Of course. There are many persons who are reluctant to seek

8 psychiatric and psychological help. I know that the best, because I dealt

9 with rape even in peacetime a long time ago, and I must say that rape and

10 incest are two of the best-kept secrets of women. Especially in the

11 Balkan culture, women are very reluctant to discuss this and they require

12 a great deal of time to decide to discuss it ultimately. However, I think

13 that any woman who reports anywhere, to some institution, wherever, should

14 receive psychiatric and psychological treatment immediately. That is to

15 say that society should take care of this, providing her medical help, I

16 mean psychiatric help. When I'm saying "medical help," I'm really saying

17 psychiatric help. I'm talking about my own profession.

18 Q. Let's put psychosis aside and talk about the other consequences of

19 trauma. Isn't it true that these consequences could, on their own, work

20 themselves out over time and indeed enable -- disappear, so that the

21 victim can lead a normal life or what appears to be a normal life?

22 A. You see, you mentioned something which seems to be normal life, as

23 if, as if it were normal life. It's the "as if" that is the problem. A

24 lot of energy is required to have a woman who had been raped, especially

25 in wartime, to return to professional rehabilitation, that is to say, to

Page 5468

1 take her back to school, to continue her studies or continue working.

2 Emotional rehabilitation is a major problem, that is to say, to

3 establish an object relationship, that is to say a relationship of

4 confidence and trust with the opposite sex. My experience with women, and

5 I believe that I have had a great deal of such experience, shows that

6 professional rehabilitation can somehow take place; however, emotional

7 rehabilitation is a very tricky thing and it cannot pass just like that.

8 I think that it requires a great deal of help, long-term psychiatric

9 support, confidence that is created, so that actually in the process of

10 therapy, the person concerned experiences all of that that was lived

11 through. Then there is re-establishment of trust and confidence in the

12 object, and that is the male person.

13 Q. You are familiar with the phrase "doctors treat and nature cures";

14 correct?

15 A. Yes. Yes, of course. That is a phrase that is quite true;

16 however, without doctors, I don't think that nature could do what we

17 expect it to do.

18 Q. Isn't it true that after a traumatic event there are people who

19 simply get over it and go on living?

20 A. I treated women for the most part. I am linked to women's

21 organisations, so I mostly deal with this particular subject matter. I

22 told you a few minutes ago that going on with one's life is something that

23 may only appear to be so. If you see a girl who had been raped, and if

24 she continues to work as a nurse after that, or as a professor or I don't

25 know what, you do not know everything about her life. I think that the

Page 5469

1 key problem is emotional rehabilitation and finding a partner

2 relationship, which is very difficult. There are women who, in spite of

3 psychotherapy, have still not managed to establish partner relationships.

4 They live and work and everything seems normal, but they do not have

5 love. They do not have the love of a partner. They are unable to

6 establish that kind of a relationship.

7 Q. You have encountered women in your experience who were victims of

8 rape who have gone on to marry; correct?

9 A. I must say that I worked with women who were married and women who

10 were unmarried and who were raped. Only one of the girls who were

11 unmarried found a boyfriend, and it was now after the bombing, and she was

12 raped in 1992. The others did not manage to establish a permanent

13 relationship based on partnership. Many of them did not have any sexual

14 intercourse after the rape. And women who were married have great

15 difficulty in returning to the marital beds of their husbands, and there

16 are two from my experience who have not even told their husbands what had

17 happened to them. So they take tranquillisers in order to be able to have

18 sex with their husbands. That is merely having sex. That is not enjoying

19 sex. So practically in order to keep their marriages alive, that is what

20 they resort to.

21 In my practice, I have not seen -- I mean, I hope, I hope that

22 this will be the case, but I have not seen in my practice that women after

23 that would fully recuperate, rehabilitate, get married, have children,

24 especially without professional assistance.

25 Q. Are you saying, Doctor, that a person who has been raped will

Page 5470

1 never, ever love again?

2 A. No, I'm not saying that. I hope that that person will love again,

3 but I'm sure that it will be very difficult for her to love with full

4 confidence. It's a question of confidence.

5 Q. And these are among the consequences of rape; correct?

6 A. Of course. Of course. These are among the consequences. So, you

7 see, even such grave things that happen in one's life are classified as

8 minor consequences.

9 Q. Now, you mentioned psychosis. Psychosis is completely different

10 from post-traumatic stress syndrome; isn't that right?

11 A. Yes. Yes.

12 Q. And that's a severe form of mental illness that must be treated by

13 psychological -- through professional psychological help; correct?

14 A. Exactly. That is the gravest form of mental illness, and

15 psychiatric help is indispensable.

16 Q. And psychosis is outside the norm; right? That is not the first

17 thing you would expect in a person?

18 A. Of course that is not the first thing, because the gravest illness

19 is not the first thing that a doctor would expect. That is one of the

20 gravest consequences, so it happens the most seldom, but regrettably it

21 does happen.

22 Q. Now, you mentioned that amnesia can be one of the consequences of

23 a trauma such as rape.

24 A. Yes. Yes.

25 Q. You, upon questioning from Defence counsel, said that amnesia can

Page 5471

1 be manipulative, to use your word; in other words, a kind of selective

2 memory. Right?

3 A. Yes. Yes.

4 Q. But wouldn't you also agree that amnesia can be genuine, that one

5 could genuinely forget certain things because of stress and time?

6 A. Of course. That's what I said. Amnesia can be manipulative. But

7 I ranked that third. It can be one's wish not to say something that one

8 does not wish to say, or it can belong to psychiatric illnesses; it can be

9 an effect of the trauma. However, I cannot say what is the case here,

10 because I don't have medical documentation, but even on the basis of

11 medical documentation I could not be quite definite on it. But now,

12 without having conversed with these persons and without having medical

13 documents, I cannot say what this is all about. I can only say what

14 exists here. I can just enumerate all the reasons that can lead to

15 amnesia, what the reasons for amnesia can be, but what exactly is the case

16 here, that I cannot say.

17 Q. You talked about the difficulty of coming to any definite

18 conclusions, and I wish to clarify with you that you mean definite medical

19 conclusions rather than any legal conclusions; correct?

20 A. No. I don't want to deal with legal conclusions at all with all

21 of you here. I mean, I am interested in medical conclusions. I am a

22 doctor. I only wish to deal with medicine, specifically psychiatry. But

23 I cannot even reach a tentative psychiatric conclusion except one, that I

24 find it striking that with such painful stories, there aren't any medical

25 documents, or very few, if any. As for psychiatric and psychological

Page 5472

1 documentation, there is none at all. It is simply lacking. And I would

2 have expected there to be some.

3 Q. The lack of medical documentation makes it difficult for you to

4 reach any sort of medical conclusion, correct, about the medical

5 consequences?

6 A. Of course. Of course.

7 Q. That lack of medical documentation does not lead you to believe or

8 to conclude that the incidents didn't occur; right? I mean, the trauma

9 could still have occurred even without the medical documentation; isn't

10 that right?

11 A. Yes. But you see, if I am asked to give an opinion as a woman, I

12 can tell you one thing, but my opinion as a psychiatrist is sought, then I

13 have to tell you that for me it is as if it had not happened. I am not

14 coming here as a woman; I come here as a psychiatrist, as a

15 psychotherapist, and I rely on medical documentation, and that is why I

16 think I'm here.

17 Q. Let me ask you this, Doctor. In your report you appear to analyse

18 the witness statements in such a way as to challenge their credibility.

19 Did you mean to do that?

20 A. No. No. No. That is your experience.

21 Q. And just to clarify, you do not mean to doubt the believability of

22 these witnesses who gave those statements at all, do you; that is not your

23 intention?

24 A. I read it and I gave my comments, my psychiatric comment, in view

25 of what I had seen.

Page 5473

1 Q. And again, I'm asking for clarification. In reading your

2 psychiatric comments, I sometimes had the impression that you meant to say

3 because a witness appears to be leading a normal life and has married and

4 had children, that therefore she could not have undergone this traumatic

5 rape, because had she undergone this traumatic rape, her life would have

6 been destroyed. Did you mean to convey that impression?

7 A. I have to admit to you that I find it striking the facility with

8 which the witnesses adapted to normal life without having previously gone

9 through any kind of treatment, basically, and that they managed to get out

10 of all of that on their own in such a remarkable way. I deal with this

11 every day --

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Kuo, I'm a bit disturbed because it seems to me

13 that the witness has got a wrong context in which she's trying to explain

14 what she observed from the statements.

15 If I recall correctly, the Prosecution witnesses were not asked by

16 the Prosecution to give details of the medical treatment, psychological

17 treatment, anything. So in a way, it is really a misrepresentation to the

18 witness for her to be led into making these conclusions because that

19 wasn't the emphasis of the Prosecution case, that they did go through

20 treatment or they didn't go through treatment. So I think the questioning

21 of the witness may be misleading to her, in fact.

22 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour. You're absolutely correct that the

23 Prosecution's case did not rest on the medical evidence. I'm asking her

24 for some clarification of her report, and perhaps I can rephrase it if the

25 Court finds it objectionable, because the impression that I received, and

Page 5474

1 maybe it's the wrong impression, is that this witness was reaching the

2 conclusion that the trauma could not have occurred because there was a

3 lack of ...

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, you can go ahead.

6 MS. KUO:

7 Q. Dr. Raskovic-Ivic, couldn't the fact that these witnesses -- well,

8 number one, the fact that the witnesses say that they're leading a normal

9 life, even according to what you said, could be misleading. In fact, they

10 could be experiencing great emotional difficulties which is masked by

11 their everyday actions, correct?

12 A. I don't know that. I don't know that.

13 Q. But it's a possibility?

14 A. It is a possibility, certainly. There is such a possibility, but

15 I don't know that.

16 Q. And there is also the possibility that they could develop symptoms

17 later with a delayed onset of post-traumatic stress syndrome? That's also

18 been recorded in the medical records, that such events occur?

19 A. Of course. That is precisely what I'm speaking about, about the

20 delayed consequences, the delayed sequel of the act of rape, and what

21 kinds exist and may occur. One of the late consequences is that emotional

22 rehabilitation and recuperation is very difficult.

23 Q. But couldn't the third possibility be, as you say, the remarkable

24 strength of these particular individuals in being able to overcome

25 adversity? I mean, strong people exist, don't they?

Page 5475

1 A. Well, there are strong people, but all of them being strong, and

2 on the other hand that I have a great deal of experience with persons who

3 are not strong, somehow does not fit together to my mind.

4 I think that all men and all women have more or less the same

5 psychological characteristics, and then on one side you have all who are

6 strong and on the other side you hardly have any strong ones, then you are

7 confused.

8 Q. Do you understand that the witness statements you were given came

9 from individuals who are not a random sampling of individuals? In other

10 words, these were people who were able to give statements to the Tribunal.

11 Do you understand that this was a select group?

12 A. Yes. But, you see, you see, even a select group -- a woman who

13 decides that she is capable of talking about something like that does have

14 to have some kind of a problem, something that bothered her, and something

15 that would give a psychiatrist reason to work with her.

16 Q. And finally, doctor, you are not saying, are you -- you are not

17 able to reach any conclusion, medical or otherwise, about whether these

18 rapes occurred or not, right? You are in no position to give any opinion

19 about that?

20 A. No, I am not in a position to give any opinion about that. Even

21 in my country I do not give opinions about that. When a rape occurs in my

22 country, then medical documentation is sought, and then in this medical

23 documentation I, as a doctor, as a psychiatrist, I list only my

24 psychiatric findings, what I find to be a consequence of that. However, I

25 do not state my views on whether a rape occurred or not. I only look at

Page 5476

1 the psychological effects. I only look at the psychological side of the

2 woman who comes to me with a problem and who talks about her symptoms and

3 about what troubles her. That is what I mention in my findings. By no

4 means do I say whether it happened or not. That is beyond my

5 jurisdiction.

6 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honours.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Any re-examination? Yes.

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

9 Re-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

10 Q. [Interpretation] From your medical point of view, how do you

11 explain the testimony of a person who was raped by 150 men within an

12 interval of 40 days and who does not remember a single event and cannot

13 describe a single event?

14 A. I already said something about amnesia and the inability to

15 remember. I think that a person who says that she was raped by 150 men

16 would have to remember the event itself because if she remembers the

17 number, then she would have to remember the details as well. Every man

18 for her would have to be a traumatic story respectively, but then she

19 would have to remember the colour of his eyes and where it happened, et

20 cetera, because if she knows the exact number, then she would certainly

21 have to remember the other things as well.

22 Q. Just one more question. Could you explain to us a bit what

23 selective or manipulative amnesia means in the sense of remembering or not

24 remembering?

25 A. Selective amnesia is a subcategory of manipulative amnesia, and we

Page 5477

1 know what manipulation is. Manipulation is manipulation. It is when we

2 wish to conceal the truth, when we wish to conceal the actual way things

3 happened. That is manipulation. When we are trying to get something else

4 rather than what should take place.

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you very much, Doctor, for giving evidence to

7 the Tribunal. You are now free. You may leave the witness box.

8 [The witness withdrew]

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Who will be the next witness?

11 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have concluded

12 for the day. We had planned to have four experts in these two days, so

13 we've finished in advance.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Why aren't the other witnesses here? Because you

15 remember before we broke off, I did emphasise that all the witnesses must

16 come for the week.

17 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we said that we

18 would have four witnesses, but of course, it is not within my competence

19 to decide when these witnesses will arrive. They are arriving here

20 tonight, actually.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: No, Mr. Prodanovic, that's not correct. I did say

22 besides the experts, we should have three other witnesses, you remember,

23 before we broke off? And I did not say these will give evidence on this

24 or that day; no. And I did say the sequence of calling witnesses should

25 not hold up the Trial Chamber. Any witness available must come. So why

Page 5478

1 aren't these other witnesses here in The Hague?

2 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have understood

3 what you said, and we worked out a schedule that meant two days of expert

4 witness questioning, and that is what we meant by having witnesses for the

5 remaining period tomorrow, the day after tomorrow.

6 As far as Kunarac is concerned, the accused Kunarac, we have only

7 two more witnesses, the one who will appear tomorrow and the videolink

8 witness, so we will have used up our time, and we will not require any

9 additional time. So that witness is tomorrow, and on Tuesday is the

10 witness who will testify by videolink.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: What I want to know is, who took the decision that

12 Monday and Tuesday will only be for the experts? Who took that decision?

13 Because that wasn't decided by the Trial Chamber.

14 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, it wasn't. I mean, I'm not

15 claiming that it was.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Then why weren't the other witnesses brought

17 at the same time as the experts who are brought, I mean in The Hague?

18 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] I really do not know how to

19 answer this question that you've put.

20 JUDGE HUNT: You did say, you did say that it was not within your

21 competence to decide when they came. That is quite contrary to what Judge

22 Mumba said to you before the adjournment when she said to you why weren't

23 all the witnesses here? Whose competence was it to decide when the

24 witnesses came, then?

25 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps there was a discrepancy

Page 5479

1 between us and the department that deals with the witnesses coming in. I

2 don't know. Perhaps my colleague, Ms. Lopicic, can explain these details.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Lopicic.

4 MS. LOPICIC: Your Honours, first I would like to tell you that we

5 thought that four expert witnesses would last today, whole day. Also,

6 Witnesses and Victims Unit told us that the four following witnesses will

7 come today. I also contacted today if additional witnesses, because we

8 might finish before Thursday afternoon for the four of the following

9 witnesses, so maybe two or three additional can come tomorrow. I received

10 information that additional witnesses who we plan to be here on Friday for

11 the following week, the week of 18th of September, do not have visas. So

12 for this week we will only have additional four witnesses, (redacted)

13 (redacted). Those are

14 the four witnesses that are coming today, this afternoon.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: We will hear them this afternoon?

16 MS. LOPICIC: No, no, no. They are coming to The Hague this

17 afternoon, I believe around 19 hours.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Are these the Victims and Witnesses Unit --

19 THE INTERPRETER: Could judge Mumba's microphone please be turned

20 on.

21 MS. LOPICIC: [Interpretation] We made the schedule, and we give

22 them --

23 JUDGE MUMBA: You gave them the whole list?

24 MS. LOPICIC: That's correct.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: And they decided that they can only bring the four

Page 5480

1 experts for Monday and Tuesday, and bring the others on Tuesday evening?

2 MS. LOPICIC: I would like to tell you that expert witnesses, they

3 decided on the 9th they will bring them by Yugoslavian Airlines from

4 Belgrade. The other four witnesses who are coming tonight, late

5 afternoon --

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Who took that decision? Was it the Victims and

7 Witnesses Unit, or was it yourselves?

8 MS. LOPICIC: It was -- I have no idea. They told us on Tuesday

9 in the evening they will come, those four witnesses.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: You see, yes, because the problem we are facing

11 here, in spite of the instructions being given that all the witnesses for

12 the week be brought over the weekend, we still have this gap.

13 MS. LOPICIC: I understand.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: It is taking too long for the trial to get finished.

15 And it is not a question of whether or not Kunarac's witnesses are over,

16 we have witnesses for the other two, and we did say the sequence of

17 calling witnesses does not matter. What we wanted was to get through the

18 witnesses instead of wasting trial time.

19 MS. LOPICIC: Yes, I understand.

20 JUDGE HUNT: How many have you got coming for next week?

21 MS. LOPICIC: For next week we have, we first asked for ten

22 witnesses plus -- I'm sorry, we asked for one person who you granted for

23 videolink. We also requested additional witness for videolink.

24 So we have regular witnesses who are coming to The Hague, nine,

25 because the first person, Mila Daskovic, who is on the list is not coming

Page 5481

1 at all. So we have nine regular witnesses plus one person who is coming

2 through videolink, actually not coming to The Hague, and we also requested

3 the second person on the list to grant a videolink conference.

4 JUDGE HUNT: And what is the nature of the evidence they're going

5 to give? Is it extensive?

6 MS. LOPICIC: I cannot tell you for all because not all the

7 witnesses who are on the list are for the accused Vukovic.

8 JUDGE HUNT: But it strikes me that even taking two for videolink,

9 another nine may not be sufficient.

10 MS. LOPICIC: As far as I know, it's not going to be that

11 extensive in connection with the witnesses who are coming for the accused

12 Mr. Vukovic.

13 JUDGE HUNT: You say there's going to be extensive evidence given

14 by these witnesses?

15 MS. LOPICIC: They're not going to be that long. I'm not sure how

16 long is going to be cross-examination.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: So we are expecting three witnesses to come tonight?

18 MS. LOPICIC: Four.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Four.

20 MS. LOPICIC: Four.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Four to come tonight.

22 MS. LOPICIC: Four tonight, four. And that's to the end of the

23 week. So for Wednesday and Thursday, we planned four witnesses. One

24 witness --

25 JUDGE HUNT: That makes the nine or 11 witnesses, whichever way

Page 5482

1 you look at it, unlikely to last the whole of next week.

2 MS. LOPICIC: As far as I understand, those are all the witnesses

3 for the Defence.

4 JUDGE HUNT: You mean there are no other witnesses coming?

5 MS. LOPICIC: No.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Oh, all right.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: So we have a few matters to deal with, particularly

8 on the protective measures that have been raised by the Defence for their

9 witnesses, and also the nature of the evidence to be given by some of the

10 Defence witnesses. So I was wondering whether the Prosecution are ready

11 with responses, or they need time to look at the documents and then we can

12 deal with them this afternoon?

13 MS. KUO: I believe we are ready right now, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Part of the motions, I think, are under confidential

15 cover, and I think we need to go into private session. I think the

16 Defence can confirm that what I've seen is under confidential cover for

17 protective measures. So can we go into private session?

18 Madam Registrar, we forgot about the expert opinion, to ask the

19 Prosecution whether it should be under seal or were they to be open with

20 some paragraphs redacted. Can we clear this, please?

21 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour, we've identified the three witness who

22 testified in closed session, and we're prepared to give you the page

23 numbers that are be redacted.

24 However, another problem has come to our addition which is that

25 throughout the report are mentioned names of Defence witnesses as

Page 5483

1 perpetrators who have been granted protective measures, and so I suppose

2 that we would leave it to the Defence whether they wish to have that

3 protected. It may simply be better to keep the whole thing closed, under

4 seal, but we are prepared to give you the limited amounts that can be

5 redacted.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Maybe we can hear the Defence. What is your view?

7 You've read this expert opinion and you've seen that some of the Defence

8 witnesses who are pseudonyms are mentioned by name. Can we have your

9 views, please.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, our position is that

11 the document should be fully under seal in order not to complicate

12 matters.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Thank you.

14 [Trial Chamber deliberates]

15 JUDGE MUMBA: I think, in view of the standard manner in which the

16 document would be treated, we feel that it's okay to have it under seal.

17 So it remains under seal, Madam Registrar. We've already got the

18 numbers.

19 JUDGE HUNT: I want to make it clear to Ms. Kuo that that doesn't

20 prevent us from referring to its contents in any judgement. This is the

21 problem when everything goes in under seal for a matter of convenience.

22 It's very difficult to write a judgement.

23 MS. KUO: We appreciate the clarification. We have also been

24 troubled by this dilemma.

25 JUDGE HUNT: We will have to refer to the witness' evidence but

Page 5484

1 without giving any identification of the particular witness. But the

2 evidence that was given in closed session is nevertheless relevant and has

3 to be referred to.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Even in closing arguments that's okay. It's

5 the name of the witnesses, anything to identify them that usually remains

6 under seal and cannot be placed in open records. Yes. So we go back to

7 closed session -- private session, I think.

8 [Private session]

9 (redacted)

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11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

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Page 5485

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13 pages 5485-5515 redacted private session

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22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.05 p.m., to

23 be reconvened on Wednesday, the 13th day of

24 September, 2000, at 9.30 a.m.

25