1 Monday, 15th November, 1999
2 [Status Conference]
3 [Open session]
4 --- Upon commencing at 4.30 p.m.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Registrar, please call the
7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This is case
8 number IT-96-23/PT, the Prosecutor versus Dragoljub
9 Kunarac and Radomir Kovac.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: May I have the appearances of
11 the parties.
12 MR. RYNEVELD: If it please the Court. The
13 Prosecution is represented today by myself, senior
14 trial attorney, along with my colleagues, Peggy Kuo and
15 Hildegard Uertz-Retzlaff, and our case manager as well,
16 George Huber.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. And the Defence for
18 Mr. Kunarac?
19 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
20 I am Slavica Prodanovic, Defence counsel for the
21 accused Dragoljub Kunarac, and I have my assistant,
22 Mara Pilipovic, a lawyer from Belgrade, with me.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Defence counsel for Mr. Kovac.
24 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I
25 am Defence counsel, Momir Kolesar, for the accused
1 Radomir Kovac.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. I would like to
3 find out from the accused whether they can understand
4 the proceedings.
5 Mr. Kunarac first. Do you understand?
6 THE ACCUSED KUNARAC: [Interpretation] Yes,
7 Your Honour. I do understand and can follow you.
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.
9 Mr. Kovac?
10 THE ACCUSED KOVAC: [Interpretation] I
11 understand you.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.
13 This Status Conference is held to go through
14 a checklist on what been done so far by both parties as
15 we proceed towards the trial date.
16 First of all, Mr. Prodanovic, I would like to
17 find out -- I have information that you now have an
18 investigator or two investigators. I would like to
19 find out from you -- and also a legal assistant.
20 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I
21 received, as assistants, one investigator and a legal
22 representative as well. I still have not been assigned
23 a second investigator.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: I want to find out whether you
25 had asked for a second investigator.
1 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your
3 JUDGE MUMBA: When was the request made?
4 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] The request was
5 made sometime at the end of last month. I can't tell
6 you the exact date because I haven't got the fax with
8 JUDGE MUMBA: So you're saying you have only
9 one investigator and one legal advisor and a legal
11 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you, Mr. Prodanovic, unless
14 you have something else to say on this.
15 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Not for now,
16 Your Honour. Thank you.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: I just want to inform the
18 parties that the Trial Chamber's schedules have
19 improved, and this trial is now set for commencement on
20 the 1st of February, which is a Tuesday, the year 2000,
21 at 10.00.
22 In view of this date, I would expect the
23 parties to expedite whatever steps are remaining
24 towards this date so that we can start on the scheduled
1 The first thing I would like to say to the
2 Prosecution is that, in view of the date as having been
3 given, and also in view of the millennium holidays, I
4 wish to order the Prosecutor to serve the Defence, both
5 Defence counsel, with unredacted statements of the
6 witnesses no later than the 20th of December, 1999 so
7 that the Defence have sufficient time, in view of the
8 holidays, to make their preparations for their defence
10 I am informed, and I would like confirmation
11 from the Prosecution, that following our order to have
12 the indictment amended following the motion on the form
13 of the indictment by the accused Mr. Kovac, the process
14 is not yet through.
15 MR. RYNEVELD: That's my understanding as
16 well. We did file almost immediately, and we're
17 awaiting the pleasure of the --
18 JUDGE MUMBA: The Confirming Judge.
19 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. I would also like
21 to find out from the Prosecution when and if they are
22 going to file an updated pre-trial brief which would
23 address both accused.
24 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. We, of course, take the
25 view that we must wait until a confirmed amended
1 indictment is, in fact, in hand, but upon receipt of
2 that, we believe we would be in a position to file an
3 amended indictment fairly quickly thereafter -- I'm
4 sorry, the pre-trial brief immediately thereafter.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Because in this pre-trial
6 brief, the Trial Chamber is interested in finding out
7 or is interested in seeing that there are clearly
8 defined lines between the offences as charged -- rape,
9 outrages upon personal dignity, and enslavement -- so
10 that it is clearly stated in that pre-trial brief
11 whether it is the same type of activities, the details
12 which are serving in either of these charges, or they
13 are different actions alleged on the part of either
14 accused, so that the accused can be clear as to what
15 type of conduct is being indicted under which charge.
16 If the pre-trial brief can make those
17 distinctions very clear, the Trial Chamber would be
18 very grateful. It will be much easier to go through
19 with the trial.
20 MR. RYNEVELD: We will certainly attempt to
21 address those issues, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE MUMBA: I think the next point is to
23 find out from all parties as to whether there have been
24 any agreements at all on matters of law or on facts,
25 according to the indictment.
1 MR. RYNEVELD: I can advise that we have met
2 again today in an attempt to deal with a list of
3 proposed stipulations that the Prosecution has
4 provided, and we have made a modicum of headway in that
5 respect. We hope that in the not-too-distant future we
6 will be able to progress even further. There are, of
7 course, some matters that the Defence required some
8 further time, as I understand it -- I'll let them speak
9 for themselves -- but we have agreed to summarise the
10 matters, and there are others that they need more time
11 before they can conclusively agree to.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.
13 Mr. Prodanovic, is that the state of
15 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your
16 Honour. We received this late, that is to say, the
17 proposals, and will have to deliberate so that -- and,
18 in fact, I was not able to check out some things in
19 Foca, but we're not going to contest most of it.
20 Perhaps there are just two or three issues that we're
21 not going to agree upon, but we have allowed for this
22 possibility because we gave all material, the
23 documents, to the Prosecution with regard to command
24 responsibility and so on, and perhaps we can take a
25 step further sometime in December.
1 Thank you, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you very much.
3 Mr. Kolesar.
4 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it
5 is correct that we had a meeting today with the
6 Prosecution and that most of the things are not
7 contested by us. I understood you to mean that it was
8 the intention of the Trial Chamber to have a hearing
9 called for the 1st of February, at 10.00, in the year
10 2000. Let me say straightaway that some facts -- I
11 have to give my opinion on some facts.
12 Since the very beginning, I have said that I
13 always wished to have cooperation and good
14 collaboration, but I do insist that my defendant be
15 allowed a fair and just trial. These proceedings have
16 been going on for some time now, that is to say, the
17 pre-trial proceedings, and Mr. Kunarac and myself have
18 just entered upon this area.
19 The Defence, unfortunately, would like to
20 indicate that after the last Status Conference held,
21 the Prosecution has supplied us with very extensive
22 documentation. They did so last time and they did so
23 today. We have received 14 videocassettes and five
24 files of subject matter, mostly in the English
25 language, and four files of these five are the findings
1 by Dr. Gow in the trial of Dusko Tadic, Zejnil Delalic,
2 and the others, and this is all in English, which means
3 that we're going to have it translated, and, as the
4 Prosecution has told us, this expert will be used in
5 this trial as well, his testimony.
6 So I am almost certain that physically we
7 won't be able to have this translated, which means we
8 won't be able to study it and to devise our strategy,
9 together with the defendants, and I don't think this
10 could be done by the 1st of February.
11 As far as our work is concerned, hand in hand
12 with the work we're going to have to do to study all
13 the new documents, we're still studying the one we were
14 supplied with the last time, after the last Status
15 Conference. I went to Foca, I went to Novi Pazar to
16 check out certain data, and I have worked with the
17 investigator as well.
18 With the Defence of Mr. Kunarac, let me say
19 that, in agreement with the Prosecution, I just
20 received documents with regard to the facts that are
21 contested and are not contested. I haven't received
22 any other documents. I'm not sure that the documents
23 sent me is binding enough.
24 In my motion of the 20th of October, I asked
25 the Trial Chamber at today's Status Conference to
1 permit the Kunarac Defence and Kovac Defence to be
2 given a free reign in exchanging material and evidence
3 that we have. This would enable our work a great
5 In light of all these facts, I am afraid that
6 the 1st of February is not enough time, that this
7 deadline is too soon for us to be able to prepare our
8 case properly.
9 Thank you, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: I note your concerns,
11 Mr. Kolesar, but if you look at the indictment,
12 Mr. Kovac has got four counts which you have to deal
13 with, for which you have to prepare the defence.
14 I want to confirm with the Prosecutor that
15 the documents supplied are not translated into
16 Serbo-Croat. Because what I want to point out is that
17 these documents are for the accused, not the Defence
18 counsel, so the fact that the accused can only
19 understand Serbo-Croat is crucial here.
20 MR. RYNEVELD: Excuse me one moment.
21 We were of the impression that Rule 68
22 material is not material that needs to be translated
23 into B/C/S. Perhaps I'm wrong about that, but that is
24 the nature of what this material, of course, is.
25 I don't mean to be picky, but my
1 understanding as well is that under Article 14, in most
2 cases, it is preferable, if not mandatory -- it may
3 even be mandatory that Defence counsel speak at least
4 one of the two official languages of the Court. Now, I
5 understand that my learned friends have a difficulty in
6 that respect; however, the Rule is there, I believe,
7 perhaps to obviate this exact problem that we're now
9 Dr. Gow has testified in at least four
10 matters, and the translations are done into English and
11 French, which are the official languages. My
12 understanding is that those documents are not
13 transcribed into B/C/S. Therefore, we are not in a
14 position to provide them. However, there may be tapes
15 available, I don't know, there may be some other means
16 whereby we can accomplish the same objective. But I
17 just thought I'd point that out.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. They are materials under
19 Rule 68, which, as you rightly pointed out, there is no
20 obligation to translate them, as long as they are in
21 one of the official languages of the Tribunal.
22 Mr. Kolesar, you understand that?
23 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I
24 do understand that. I'm just pointing out that we need
25 a certain amount of time for the translation, physical
2 JUDGE MUMBA: But I would urge you to work as
3 hard as possible, as quickly as possible, because you
4 have the rest of this month, also after the amended
5 indictment is served, and then have you most of
6 December and all of January to prepare your defence.
7 The next item is authenticity of exhibits,
8 first by the Prosecution. It saves a lot of time
9 during the trial if documents that are required as
10 exhibits by the Prosecution are discussed with the
11 other parties and issues of authenticity are cleared,
12 so that we don't have to call witnesses to produce any
13 of the documents during the trial. But I would like
14 such documents, if it is agreed upon by the parties, to
15 be produced during the trial so that they are part of
16 the public record.
17 So I would like to find out how far this
18 preparation has gone.
19 MR. RYNEVELD: We have discussed these
20 matters with Mr. Prodanovic, on behalf of Mr. Kunarac;
21 however, we have not yet had an opportunity of so doing
22 with Mr. Kolesar for Mr. Kovac, at least that's my
24 Needless to say, we are as anxious as the
25 Court is to make this matter as efficient as possible.
1 We will comply with that in any way we possibly can.
2 We cannot, of course, anticipate if matters might come
3 up in cross-examination, but certainly we will do
4 whatever we can in comparing documents, showing them,
5 and making sure that whatever exhibits are entered will
6 not be shown for the first time.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Also, the Defence
8 counsel, once the intended exhibits are shown to them,
9 it's better to indicate whether or not they will
10 contest authenticity because this saves a lot of time
11 in terms of calling witness to prove the documents, as
12 well as produce them.
13 Any comments, Mr. Prodanovic?
14 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your
15 Honour. We had a discussion, I believe, in February
16 this year, and we are not going to contest the
17 authenticity of this evidence. Of course, we are going
18 to contest the substance but not the authenticity of
19 the documents concerned.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you very much.
21 Mr. Kolesar, any comment on that?
22 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I haven't
23 studied all the documents yet, so I cannot really state
24 my precise views on their authenticity or anything
25 else. So I ask for your understanding with regard to
1 that matter.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.
3 The next item is expert witnesses. We note
4 that Ms. Cleiren's statement has been filed.
5 Dr. Gow's, I think, is one of the documents you are
6 still exchanging, isn't it?
7 MR. RYNEVELD: It is, Your Honour, yes.
8 There is also 94 bis for Dr. Rath.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: For Dr. Rath, yes. So you are
10 not yet through with deciding which expert witnesses
11 you are calling.
12 MR. RYNEVELD: We have proposed a witness
13 list, and we are pretty well -- there are a few
14 minor -- of course, until you have a certain trial
15 date, it's sometimes difficult to know exactly which
16 witness for sure may be available. But we certainly
17 have an indication in what areas we want the expertise,
18 Dr. Rath, Dr. Cleiren, Dr. Gow, and a military expert.
19 But my friends have just provided us with some material
20 today, about half an hour ago, and we will have to see
21 whether or not further military experts are necessary
22 on behalf of the Prosecution.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Thank you.
24 Just as a routine matter, I know that for
25 Mr. Prodanovic, no special defence has been indicated,
1 so I take it that we shall have general defences.
2 For Mr. Kolesar, I would just like to confirm
3 that. Is there any defence of alibi or special defence
4 being proposed?
5 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
6 again, I'm going back to what I said: We haven't
7 studied the entire material, and exercising all
8 possible caution, I would like to say that most
9 probably we are not going to contest anything.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: No. I'm talking about putting
11 up a special defence in terms of Rule 67(A), alibi, or
12 any other special defence which must be notified to the
13 Prosecution at the earliest time possible.
14 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] No.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.
16 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] No. No.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: You did raise, Mr. Kolesar, I
18 think, a query that you would like to have freedom of
19 exchanging materials between yourself and
20 Mr. Prodanovic, whatever materials Mr. Prodanovic has
21 and whatever materials you have. There's no need for
22 you to come to the Chamber for that. These are matters
23 that the two Defence counsel can discuss and agree upon
24 themselves, depending upon the strategies of your
1 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
2 that's exactly what I wished to hear, and I want to
3 have it in the transcript so that there wouldn't be any
4 embarrassment either for myself or for my colleague,
5 Mr. Prodanovic, in the future. I thank you.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Prodanovic, I'm sure you
7 agree to this, that you can exchange whatever documents
8 you wish to exchange between the two of you and that
9 there's no need to come to the Chamber.
10 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your
11 Honour, we agree that there is no need to have a
12 special decision. It is important to have this noted
13 in the transcript. We are going to make available all
14 the documents that we have upon our return to
16 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you very much.
17 I just want to remind the parties of the
18 continuing observations under Rule 67(D), and also 68,
19 for the Prosecutor.
20 As for the protective measures, that was done
21 the last time.
22 I just want to know from the Defence counsel,
23 firstly for Mr. Kunarac, whether everything is okay.
24 Any other comments, Mr. Prodanovic?
25 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
1 for the time being, none whatsoever.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.
3 Mr. Kolesar, apart from what you've informed
4 the Trial Chamber about the documents and the speed at
5 which you think you will prepare your defence case, any
6 other matters you wish to draw to the attention of the
7 Trial Chamber?
8 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] No, Your
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. The Prosecutor, any
11 other matters you wish to raise at this stage?
12 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, Your Honour, there is
13 just one, perhaps more along the lines of a
14 housekeeping matter.
15 My understanding is is that there is
16 presently a binding order for us to file documents by
17 the 17th of November. In light of the fact that we are
18 still awaiting confirmation of our ordered amended
19 indictment, we cannot comply with that, unless, of
20 course, there's a miracle between now and the 17th of
21 November. That's my dilemma, and I wonder whether
22 perhaps the Court might consider an oral motion at this
23 point to extend that binding date to await the pleasure
24 of the Confirming Judge.
25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think what the Trial
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the
14 English and French transcripts
1 Chamber can do is to vary the deadline by simply saying
2 that within four days of confirmation by the Confirming
3 Judge, the amended indictment should be served.
4 MR. RYNEVELD: That would be excellent.
5 Thank you. I take it that is your order, then.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, that is the order of the
7 Trial Chamber. Within four days after confirmation by
8 the Confirming Judge.
9 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Any other matters, Madam
12 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Nothing else,
13 Your Honour.
14 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you very much. I think
15 we have come to the end of our Status Conference.
16 I would again appeal to the parties to work
17 very hard so that we can make the trial date early next
18 year. The Trial Chamber has other cases which are in
19 the pre-trial stage, and if we are not started, we may
20 have to start another trial. As you know, there are
21 other accused persons in detention whose cases are
22 awaiting trial by the same Trial Chamber. So I would
23 hope that we would try to work much faster so that we
24 can start the trial as early as possible.
25 With those few words, thank you very much,
1 and the Status Conference stands adjourned.
2 --- Whereupon the Status Conference
3 adjourned at 4.56 p.m. sine die