Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 204

1 Tuesday, 14th December 1999

2 [Status Conference]

3 [Open session]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.00 p.m.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Case

8 IT-96-23-PT, the Prosecutor versus Dragoljub Kunarac

9 and Radomir Kovac.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Appearances, please.

11 Prosecution.

12 MR. RYNEVELD: If it please the Court, Dirk

13 Ryneveld for the Prosecutor, and with me today are

14 Peggy Kuo, Hildegard Uertz-Retzlaff, our case manager

15 George Huber, and also assisting me is Daryl Mundis.

16 JUDGE HUNT: For Mr. Kunarac.

17 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good

18 afternoon, Your Honour. My name is Slavica Prodanovic,

19 Defence counsel for Dragoljub Kunarac.

20 JUDGE HUNT: And for Mr. Kovac.

21 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

22 good afternoon. I am Momir Kolesar, attorney from

23 Belgrade, Defence counsel for the accused Mr. Radomir

24 Kovac.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Kunarac, are you able to

Page 205

1 hear the proceedings in a language which you

2 understand?

3 THE ACCUSED KUNARAC: [Interpretation] Yes,

4 Your Honour, I can hear and understand you.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Mr. Kovac, are you

6 able to hear the proceedings in a language that you

7 understand?

8 THE ACCUSED KOVAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

9 Honour.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. You may sit down.

11 Well, this Status Conference has been called

12 in order to resolve problems about the hearing date and

13 a number of other perhaps less important issues.

14 First of all, Mr. Kolesar, I have your motion

15 and I've read it. Is there anything you want to add to

16 it?

17 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

18 Honour. My motion for delaying the beginning of a

19 trial I based on Article 20 of the Statute of the

20 International Tribunal.

21 JUDGE HUNT: I did say I had read it. I

22 don't want you to repeat it. Is there anything you

23 want to add to it?

24 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I was just

25 going to say that I wished to add the following. The

Page 206

1 Defence of Radomir Kovac has been prompted to request a

2 deferral of the beginning of trial; the shortness of

3 the time given to the Defence of Mr. Kovac to prepare

4 for trial. I have been in the case since the beginning

5 of September this year, and until the beginning of

6 trial I would only have had five months to prepare. I feel

7 this is too short a period because it is my duty, in order

8 to prepare for a fair and just trial to familiarise

9 myself with all the material disclosed by the

10 Prosecution.

11 Four counts of the indictment have been

12 levelled against my defendant, but I also have to study

13 the general allegations in the indictment and, also,

14 since the last Status Conference, I was allowed to

15 exchange material with the Defence counsel of

16 Mr. Kunarac so that I have to study those materials as

17 well.

18 Finally, it is also my duty to prepare the

19 evidence in defence of the accused Kovac, that

20 evidence, because these events took place a long time

21 ago, are scattered all over Bosnia, southern Serbia and

22 Montenegro, so that I will need a considerable amount

23 of time to find those materials. Also, I see that the

24 material mentions the trial, the proceedings against my

25 client in Podgorica. So I have to study those

Page 207

1 materials and files as well.

2 Bearing all this in mind, the Defence counsel

3 of the accused Kovac is not able to prepare for the

4 trial properly if it were to begin on February

5 the 1st.

6 Furthermore, on the 21st of October, I

7 submitted a motion for another investigator and to this

8 day I have not received any answer from the Registry to

9 that request. I do not wish to complain, but --

10 JUDGE HUNT: Just one moment. Just pause on

11 that. According to the Registry records, you have

12 already two investigators. How many more are you

13 seeking?

14 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

15 according to the records and information that I have

16 received from the Registry, I have designated one

17 investigator and a legal assistant; Snjezana Prodanovic

18 as an investigator, suggested by me. A request to that

19 effect was submitted on the 21st of October, and I

20 still have not been informed about it. There may have

21 been a decision by the Registry but I haven't received

22 it.

23 JUDGE HUNT: There was. On the 4th of

24 November she was appointed. Have you not been informed

25 of that?

Page 208

1 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I have not been

2 informed, and I had just wanted to tell you something

3 else. My communication with the Registry is not

4 functioning very well. I submitted the addresses to

5 which materials can be sent to me; there's a telephone

6 number and a fax number. I also have a cubical at the

7 entrance to this building, but I'm still not receiving

8 the materials there. I'm getting the material from the

9 Kunarac Defence, from the Defence -- the former Defence

10 counsel, Igor Pantelic, who has not been the Defence

11 counsel for almost two years, and because of this poor

12 communication with the Registry, that is probably the

13 reason why I haven't been informed that I have a second

14 investigator as of the 4th of November.

15 JUDGE HUNT: Will you tell me, please, what

16 is the fax number to which you say the material should

17 be sent?

18 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] It is stated in

19 the heading, 003-811-169-5930 New Belgrade, Bulevar

20 Lenjina 201.

21 JUDGE HUNT: And you say that you have not

22 received any information about your co-counsel and your

23 investigators at that fax number?

24 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] No. No, no,

25 Your Honour. Regarding co-counsel, Mr. Domazet, that I

Page 209

1 have been informed about. What I have not received is

2 information that the second investigator has been

3 appointed, a request that I submitted on the 21st of

4 October.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Well, I can't answer you here,

6 but I'll have an investigation made at the Registry to

7 see where you were informed about her appointment.

8 According to the records, you were appointed on the 6th

9 of September, Ms. Radovic on the 14th of October,

10 Ms. Pilipovic on the 26th of October, Ms. Prodanovic on

11 the 4th of November, and Mr. Domazet on the 3rd of

12 December.

13 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

14 all that is correct, except for the information

15 regarding investigator Snjezana Prodanovic.

16 JUDGE HUNT: I'll have that looked into,

17 yes. You may proceed. But so far, if I may say so,

18 you've added nothing to what is in the document you've

19 filed. What I am anxious to know is if there's

20 anything more you want to tell me than is in that

21 document.

22 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] What is not

23 stated is my request for deferral for two months, which

24 means that it is my assessment that the Kovac Defence

25 would be ready for the beginning of trial at the

Page 210

1 beginning of April 2000.

2 JUDGE HUNT: In your document, you state it

3 would take you two months to prepare and that was a

4 document filed at the end of November. Two months from

5 the end of November, even allowing for the Christmas

6 period, certainly does not justify a two-month delay.

7 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] It is evident

8 from this document that we requested deferral when we

9 heard that the trial date had been set for the 1st of

10 February. So we asked for a two-month delay as of the

11 1st of February, 2000.

12 JUDGE HUNT: You say this is in your document

13 requesting the delay, is it, or requesting postponement

14 of the commencement of the trial.

15 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I am requesting

16 that the beginning of trial be postponed by two

17 months --

18 JUDGE HUNT: Look, Mr. Kolesar, we'll get on

19 a lot more quickly if you just answer my question.

20 Do you say there's something in this document

21 that you've filed which nominates a further delay of

22 two months?

23 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] If you are

24 referring to the document where I'm requesting a

25 postponement, no precise date is given. But I am now

Page 211

1 being more precise and my request is for the trial to

2 begin at the beginning of April.

3 JUDGE HUNT: You did receive a fax, I

4 suppose, very shortly after you filed your document

5 requesting you to nominate the time needed and to do so

6 by the 6th of December. Did you receive such a fax

7 from the Tribunal?

8 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] The fax may

9 have reached my office but I didn't receive it because

10 I left on Saturday.

11 JUDGE HUNT: This was sent on the 30th of

12 November, that's well before last Saturday, and it was

13 sent to the number which is nominated at the top of

14 your document. You say you didn't receive that.

15 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] That was dated

16 the 30th of November, I received that fax, but in the

17 meantime I had submitted the request for postponement,

18 so I thought that --

19 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Kolesar, your request was

20 dated the 30th of November. It did not nominate any

21 specific time you wanted; indeed, you said you wanted

22 to inform the Trial Chamber in your own time as to how

23 long you needed. So a fax was sent to you and it asked

24 you to state as precisely as possible the time which

25 you would need and to notify us of that time by the 6th

Page 212

1 of December. That was sent in response to your

2 document.

3 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I did not

4 reply -- that is my mistake; I'm sorry -- but I am now

5 being more precise and making this request, as I have

6 said.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Let's look at this request for a

8 two-month delay. Have you got your motion for the

9 postponement? Have you got it there with you?

10 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

11 JUDGE HUNT: On page 6 of that document, when

12 you are referring to the material which had been

13 delivered to you, you said that you would need two

14 months in order to deal with the material.

15 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] You said page

16 6, Your Honour?

17 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, I said page 6. In a very

18 long paragraph commencing with the words "According to

19 this letter which we are enclosing herewith ..." and

20 about eight or nine lines down, "... it would mean

21 practically two months of work ..." and then again,

22 "... nevertheless the fact remains that the vast

23 expansive material demands at least two months of

24 work ..."

25 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

Page 213

1 the sentence reads: "The Defence would be ready to

2 work during the holidays, but nonetheless the quantity

3 of material requires at least two months just to read

4 through but not also to prepare for trial because this

5 requires additional time."

6 So "studying the material," I am referring to

7 the expert opinions, and what we have received from the

8 Kunarac Defence counsel requires two months for reading

9 it through, but that doesn't mean that in two months we

10 would be ready for the beginning of trial. That is the

11 meaning of this sentence.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Let us accept that that is the

13 meaning of the sentence. What can you put before me to

14 justify a further two months before the trial

15 commences?

16 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I

17 thought I was clear enough in my submission. I refer

18 to a certain article of the Statute, you said that you

19 have read it, and there's no need for me to repeat it.

20 I have no new additional reasons to give, except those

21 given in my letter, and I personally feel that those

22 reasons are justified and we will not be in a position

23 to follow hearings from the 1st of February if that

24 date were to be retained for the beginning of trial.

25 Please understand me. The Defence counsel is

Page 214

1 unable physically to study properly the materials and

2 prepare the defence by that date.

3 JUDGE HUNT: You still, if I may say so, have

4 not answered my question, Mr. Kolesar. I am asking you

5 to justify a further two months, that's four months in

6 all, in order to be ready, allowing two months for

7 reading the material. What can you say to justify four

8 months before the trial begins?

9 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

10 this is stated in my motion in the following sentence:

11 "If we add to this the obligation of the Defence to

12 prepare its own evidence, then clearly the time

13 left --"

14 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry. The

15 interpreters do not have copies of these documents. We

16 apologise.

17 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] "-- the Defence

18 is also obliged to prepare its own evidence, then it

19 becomes clear that the time left until the beginning of

20 trial does not guarantee the accused Kovac a proper

21 preparation of his defence according to Article 20(B),

22 because in that period of time, the accused will not

23 have enough time to be familiarised with the evidence

24 against him."

25 So, in fact, I'm asking for a two-month

Page 215

1 postponement from the date set for trial, and when I

2 made that request I thought that I could spend December

3 and January studying the material or the bulk of it.

4 JUDGE HUNT: Is there anything more you want

5 to add?

6 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] No, thank you,

7 Your Honour.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

9 Now, on behalf of Mr. Kunarac, we've got a

10 document here which says he consents to the

11 adjournment; is that so?

12 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

13 Honour. I was informed of these reasons by my

14 colleague, Mr. Kolesar, and though we had stated in

15 June already that we were ready for the beginning of

16 trial, we do not wish the Defence of the accused Kovac

17 to reproach us in the sense that they did not have

18 sufficient time to prepare for trial properly.

19 As we have waited this long, another two

20 months won't make any difference.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, Mr. Prodanovic.

22 Yes, Mr. Ryneveld, you specifically asked to

23 be heard on this question.

24 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

25 At the outset, our position is that the

Page 216

1 Prosecution, of course, is anxious and prepared to

2 proceed to trial as quickly as possible. What is "as

3 quickly as possible," of course, is always determined

4 by what, under the circumstances, affords everyone an

5 opportunity for a fair trial. That, of course, is a

6 matter entirely within the discretion of the Court

7 based on the information that you obtain.

8 In fairness to my friends, I have to agree to

9 a certain extent that they have received -- at least

10 Mr. Kovac's counsel, Mr. Kolesar, has received a great

11 deal of material and a lot of material that he needs to

12 obviously go through, and --

13 JUDGE HUNT: And quite late too, from the

14 point of view of a 1st of February commencement.

15 MR. RYNEVELD: It is.

16 JUDGE HUNT: I can see his point there.


18 JUDGE HUNT: My question is how long should

19 the postponement be for.

20 MR. RYNEVELD: That, of course, is not a

21 matter that is for the Prosecution to determine. We

22 have had discussions and I've asked my friend more or

23 less the same kinds of questions that Your Honour has

24 posed today --

25 JUDGE HUNT: Did you get a better answer?

Page 217

1 MR. RYNEVELD: I won't say it was a better

2 answer. There is, of course, a difference between what

3 counsel would optimally desire and what he could

4 probably be pressed to agreeing would be the minimum

5 time he needs.

6 My understanding is that they wanted more

7 time, but after discussions with us, I got more or less

8 the same answer you did, that the 1st of April would be

9 the first opportunity.

10 I told my friend, in fairness -- they asked

11 what our position was and I told them that that, of

12 course, was totally up to the Court but that I would be

13 hard-pressed to oppose an adjournment for a reasonable

14 period of time. What that amounts to, Your Honour, it

15 would be improper for me to suggest because that would

16 be usurping the function of the Court.

17 I think we have to take the position that

18 some adjournment for a reasonable period of time should

19 not be opposed by us. I certainly don't want to do the

20 trial twice for whatever reason, either for severance

21 if it's too long an adjournment or perhaps another body

22 looking at the decision sometime down the road. I

23 certainly wouldn't want either of those opportunities

24 to require either a severance or a second trial.

25 JUDGE HUNT: I think that need not be

Page 218

1 emphasised. We all understand that particular

2 problem.


4 JUDGE HUNT: My particular concern is to

5 ensure that both parties receive a fair and an

6 expeditious trial.

7 MR. RYNEVELD: Absolutely.

8 JUDGE HUNT: I accept the argument that

9 Mr. Kolesar has put that "fair" is the predominant of

10 those two adjectives, and "expeditious" cannot make an

11 unfair trial a fair one. I'm satisfied, in my own

12 mind, that he is entitled to a postponement. If we

13 leave it for too long, of course, we may be asked for a

14 severance, and that's where I think we take into

15 account more than one party's point of view

16 provided -- and this is a very important proviso --

17 provided that Mr. Kovac has got sufficient time to

18 prepare for trial.

19 To suggest the five months, which is the

20 first submission made, is not sufficient for

21 preparation for trial is complete nonsense in my view,

22 but we do have to take into account he does have a lot

23 of reading to do. He has had since September when he

24 came on to prepare his defence. I know that he hasn't

25 had a final indictment to work on until fairly

Page 219

1 recently, but the additional material there is fairly

2 small because the order that you file a more detailed

3 indictment was fairly limited. So very little of what

4 Mr. Kolesar has said has given me any assistance on the

5 issue.

6 Well, you wanted to address me. So far

7 you've said nothing else except that it's really my

8 concern. What do you want to say?

9 MR. RYNEVELD: What we wanted to be heard on

10 as well, in the event the Court was considering a

11 postponement --

12 JUDGE HUNT: There are other issues.

13 MR. RYNEVELD: There are other issues there.

14 JUDGE HUNT: I'm not concerned about those at

15 this stage, but I think we have to decide somehow what

16 date we should commence on.

17 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. I would not be so

18 presumptuous as to suggest a date, but if the Court is

19 satisfied, and all I can go on is the basis of what my

20 learned friend is telling the Court, and that is that

21 he is going to require approximately two months from

22 the 1st of February in order to adequately prepare for

23 trial. That's how I understand it.

24 JUDGE HUNT: I, frankly, don't accept that.

25 MR. RYNEVELD: I'm not suggesting that you

Page 220

1 ought, I'm simply saying that's what I hear him

2 saying. Exactly what he intends to do during those two

3 months, of course, perhaps might be the subject for

4 further inquiry.

5 JUDGE HUNT: I've tried and got no answer.

6 So I'm left completely in the dark.

7 MR. RYNEVELD: I should simply say that the

8 Prosecution is prepared to proceed as soon as possible,

9 and whenever the Court indicates, we're prepared to go.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much.

11 Well, Mr. Kolesar, you see my problem. I

12 really do need more assistance from you to explain why

13 you need two months to do what you've had, if I may say

14 so, since the 6th of September to do.

15 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

16 since the 6th of September onwards I have been studying

17 certain documents which I received from the

18 Prosecution. Those documents were large in scope

19 although my accused has only got four counts against

20 him, and they have been elaborated in detail. The

21 evidence with respect to the general portion, I had to

22 read through that and to see whether it had anything to

23 do with my defendant.

24 So in that period, on two occasions, I had to

25 travel to Foca to gather material. Next I had to go to

Page 221

1 Sarajevo, to Rozaje, and to Novi Pazar as well, and

2 some of the material indeed was collected after the

3 last Status Conference was held. We received the

4 expert findings and additional evidence linked to

5 witnesses. As I state in my request, this material

6 comprises about 2.000 pages, which I have not had the

7 time to read. And as I say, I will have to keep

8 reading them all through December and January.

9 In addition to that, I received additional

10 material linked to and prepared by the Defence of

11 Kunarac, relating to both witnesses and expert findings

12 and reports. Once again, I personally have to study

13 all those documents.

14 Finally, I have to continue my work, you say

15 with two, I am willing to accept that, so two

16 investigators, although I thought I only had one, in

17 rounding off my defence strategy for Mr. Kovac, which

18 means gathering new evidence which will serve for his

19 defence.

20 JUDGE HUNT: You also have co-counsel,

21 Mr. Domazet.

22 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] That is

23 correct, Your Honour. My learned colleague Mr. Domazet

24 will be joining the team, which means he will have to

25 read through a great deal of the material that I have

Page 222

1 already read through. Therefore, I cannot view the

2 matter partially and just separate what I received from

3 the OTP and from the Defence team of Mr. Kunarac and

4 everything I have to do with respect to my travels to

5 Podgorica.

6 I'm looking at all this together, taking it

7 all together, and on the basis of that

8 all-embraciveness, I do believe that with all the work

9 ahead of me we shall be able to prepare a proper

10 defence for the beginning of April next year.

11 I don't know whether this helps you, but I

12 sincerely hope so.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.

14 MR. RYNEVELD: One additional matter that you

15 may wish to take into consideration is the fact that

16 counsel have been, I think, productivity working on the

17 matter. There is another factor that may take up some

18 time between now and trial date, whenever that maybe,

19 and that -- I understand that the Defence is intending

20 to allow Mr. Kovac to be interviewed by the

21 Prosecution. That will take some time as well, but

22 that apparently will take place sometime between now

23 and the beginning of trial.

24 The other thing is we have had --

25 JUDGE HUNT: How long do you suggest that's

Page 223

1 going to take?

2 MR. RYNEVELD: We don't know when it is that

3 they -- according to Defence, and you may want to make

4 some inquiries, but my understanding is once they have

5 read and completed their study of the documents which

6 have been provided by us, they will then be in a

7 position to allow us to interview Mr. Kovac.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. That gives us some idea as

9 to when they're going to do it, but how long is it

10 going to take once you get to that stage?

11 MR. RYNEVELD: I would imagine that our

12 interview wouldn't take more than a day at best. If

13 it's anything like Mr. Kunarac, we did it over two days

14 but it was broken in two small portions. I don't think

15 that, in particular, is going to take a lot of time but

16 it is yet another step that needed to be -- I'm just

17 trying to provide information to the Court to make a

18 fully informed decision.

19 The other matter is we have had some

20 productive discussions about experts and the hope

21 perhaps to reduce the number of experts that we have

22 already served notice.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Well, you've received a notice

24 and reply that they want to cross-examine all of your

25 experts.

Page 224

1 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. Shall we say that we're

2 in discussions as to whether or not there be some

3 reconsideration of those matters.

4 JUDGE HUNT: All right.

5 MR. RYNEVELD: Again just by way of

6 information.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Well, it's clear

8 that the trial cannot proceed on the 1st of February as

9 it was hoped, and it is unfortunate that is so.

10 However, faced as I am with a fair case for a

11 postponement, the trial will be postponed.

12 I do not, however, accept that a further two

13 months should be allowed. It is, if I may say so,

14 unreal to suggest that co-counsel has to read the whole

15 of the material which counsel has already read. The

16 idea of having more than one counsel is that the tasks

17 to be done can be split up between them. Nevertheless,

18 I accept that there is a great deal of work to be done

19 and that it will take a considerable period of time.

20 In those circumstances, the trial date will

21 be postponed, to commence on Monday, the 20th of

22 March.

23 Now, Mr. Ryneveld, in those circumstances you

24 will want a delay in the disclosure of the unredacted

25 statements.

Page 225

1 MR. RYNEVELD: That's correct, please, Your

2 Honour.

3 JUDGE HUNT: At the moment you've been

4 ordered to supply them. I think it's about six weeks

5 prior to the hearing.

6 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. That was, I believe, in

7 light of the pending holiday season.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. Well, if we made it the

9 31st of January, that seems to be about the same time.

10 MR. RYNEVELD: That would be acceptable.

11 JUDGE HUNT: Very well. Then the unredacted

12 witness statements are to be served now on or before

13 the 31st of January.

14 Now, there are a number of other matters

15 which you have raised, Mr. Ryneveld. The first of them

16 that I see in your list is the general schedule for the

17 trial. That's a matter which will have to await the

18 return of Judge Mumba, who is the Presiding Judge. She

19 will be back at the Tribunal next Monday. In fact, we

20 had hoped that she might be able to conduct the Status

21 Conference but there are no courts available as from

22 the end of this week. So we took advantage of the fact

23 that counsel were all here today to have the Status

24 Conference today.

25 I will discuss it with Judge Mumba next week,

Page 226

1 and we'll issue a scheduling order which will nominate

2 the hours and the number of days and whether we will be

3 sitting continuously or having breaks at any particular

4 time. So that one, I'm afraid, we can't determine.

5 The next matter you've raised is you want to

6 have cleared up any confusion there may be as to

7 whether either of the accused is raising the issue of

8 alibi or some other so-called special defence as the

9 Rules rather misleadingly call it.

10 So I think, if I may, I will ask counsel and

11 see what's going to happen.

12 Mr. Prodanovic, you presently have given

13 notice of an alibi, I understand. Is that so?

14 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

15 Honour. We state the periods; that is to say, from the

16 7th to the 21st of July and the 2nd of August. Those

17 are periods which we shall use a defence by alibi, and

18 we inform the Prosecution thereof. And also from the

19 23rd to the 26th.

20 JUDGE HUNT: But you have -- you've given the

21 names of the witnesses but you have not given their

22 addresses which the Rule requires.

23 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

24 those are displaced persons mostly, and their addresses

25 have changed as well as the names of streets in Foca.

Page 227

1 The names of streets in Foca have also been changed and

2 I don't know the names of any streets. All the streets

3 which up to the war had certain names have now been

4 changed.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Nevertheless, even if you gave

6 the Prosecution the old names of the streets, they may

7 be able to make some investigations, because they too

8 will be able to find out the new names of the streets.

9 You have to give them something.

10 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

11 Foca is a small town. Everybody knows everybody else.

12 So a name and surname is sufficient, and it's no

13 problem to find the person in question. It is a town

14 of some 10,000 inhabitants and everybody knows

15 everybody else.

16 JUDGE HUNT: So they're all residing in Foca,

17 are they?

18 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes,

19 they are.

20 JUDGE HUNT: We'll see if Mr. Ryneveld has

21 anything to say about that later. Is that the only

22 issue that you're raising within the meaning of the

23 Rule?

24 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] If the

25 addresses are a problem, I shall be happy to help the

Page 228

1 Prosecution in coming by those addresses and reaching

2 the witnesses. That is not a problem.

3 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much.

4 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

5 Your Honour.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Kolesar, you have not yet

7 given any written formal notice or at least none has

8 been filed. Are you raising any issue of alibi or

9 so-called special defence?

10 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

11 according to the indictment as it now stands, which is

12 in force at the moment, we have no need to use a

13 defence by alibi or any special defence.

14 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much.

15 Mr. Ryneveld, what about the question of

16 addresses. Are you happy to speak to Mr. Prodanovic to

17 see what can be done or have somebody consult with him

18 as to where these witnesses may be found?

19 MR. RYNEVELD: That would certainly be a

20 start. We'll try that. I would follow up on Your

21 Honour's suggestion that we be provided with whatever

22 addresses he now has to assist our investigators in

23 perhaps locating them. Any other assistance he may be

24 able to provide would be most gratefully appreciated.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. All right.

Page 229

1 I think, Mr. Prodanovic, if you would supply

2 at least the addresses that you've presently got, if

3 you could do that within seven days, and then there can

4 be further discussion between the parties as to any

5 further assistance you can give. Would that be

6 possible?

7 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that is

8 possible, Your Honour, and I talked to the OTP about

9 the possibilities of the OTP having an interview with

10 one of the witnesses and I said that I will try and

11 have this witness come to talk to them. So as far as

12 what we have just heard, the Prosecution can be assured

13 that I am willing to cooperate with them. There will

14 be no problems in that regard.

15 Thank you, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE HUNT: I thank you for that.

17 Has there been any discussion, Mr. Ryneveld,

18 about the authenticity of the exhibits now that you've

19 filed a list?

20 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. We, in fact, have been

21 working on that, and my understanding is, subject to

22 being corrected, that the Defence is not objecting to the

23 authenticity of the documents that we have filed.

24 That's my understanding in our discussions, and they're

25 both nodding in agreement so ...

Page 230

1 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. What about agreed

2 facts, or at least an acceptance that you may prove

3 some facts in a fairly general way?

4 MR. RYNEVELD: We have worked very diligently

5 on that, including this morning, and we are very close

6 to having agreed on, I would say, the bulk of them. I

7 think there are two outstanding matters that need

8 refinement of terminology that's acceptable to both

9 sides, but I'm happy to report that we appear to be

10 well on the way to completion of that process as well.

11 JUDGE HUNT: That sounds good. Now, was

12 there anything else that you wanted to raise?

13 MR. RYNEVELD: Just two things by way of

14 housekeeping matters, if I may refer to them as such.


16 MR. RYNEVELD: One is I also asked my friends

17 this morning whether or not -- at least Mr. Kolesar,

18 perhaps it's premature to ask him this, but whether

19 there were any anticipated further challenges to the

20 amended indictment that was filed on the 2nd of

21 December. So I just wanted to find out where we are

22 with that.

23 The second matter that I wanted to raise for

24 the Court, and perhaps you may wish to wait until

25 you've had an opportunity to speak to the Presiding

Page 231

1 Judge, but whether or not it would be appropriate to,

2 at this time, discuss a date for a Pre-Trial

3 Conference.

4 JUDGE HUNT: Well, I was going to say that at

5 the very end.

6 MR. RYNEVELD: Oh, I'm sorry.

7 JUDGE HUNT: It will be up to the Presiding

8 Judge to set a date but it will obviously be well in

9 advance of the trial.


11 JUDGE HUNT: And we've now got a lot of time

12 next year in which it could be held.


14 JUDGE HUNT: I would anticipate that it would

15 be sometime in January but it might now be early

16 February, because we want to take advantage of

17 Mr. Kolesar's hard work, when he will be in a position

18 at the Pre-Trial Conference to tell us a little bit

19 more about what he's going to do.

20 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. Before I close, may I

21 just check with my learned colleagues to see if there

22 is some point that I may have missed.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, certainly.

24 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. I'm assured that

25 those are the things on our list of things to discuss,

Page 232

1 so thank you very much, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much.

3 Mr. Prodanovic and Mr. Kolesar, are there any

4 matters that you want to raise, bearing in mind this is

5 a Status Conference and it's an opportunity for you to

6 raise matters that you want to raise in court?

7 MR. PRODANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

8 we have no further matters to raise. For the most

9 part, we are in the final stages of consultations with

10 the Prosecution regarding these stipulations, and I

11 hope that tomorrow, when we have agreed upon a meeting,

12 we will have the final version with relation to the two

13 questions in dispute.

14 JUDGE HUNT: Good. Thank you very much.

15 How about you, Mr. Kolesar? Any matters you

16 want to raise?

17 MR. KOLESAR: [Interpretation] I do not wish

18 to say anything new. I should just like to thank you,

19 Your Honour, and the Prosecution for showing your

20 understanding with respect to the issue of the

21 postponement of the Kovac trial. Thank you.

22 JUDGE HUNT: If nobody wants to raise any

23 further issues, I'll adjourn shortly, but first of all

24 I want to say there will be a scheduling order issued

25 hopefully next week nominating a date for the Pre-Trial

Page 233

1 Conference and also setting out the anticipated sitting

2 hours and days.

3 I would like to thank everybody concerned for

4 sorting out the question of the hearing date. Perhaps

5 nobody is fully satisfied, but that's the usual test

6 that the Court's done its job.

7 Thank you very much. I will adjourn.

8 --- Whereupon the Status Conference

9 adjourned at 2.45 p.m. sine die