1. 1 Monday, 24 August, 1998

    2 (The accused entered court)

    3 (Open session)

    4 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

    5 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-95-16-T, the Tribunal

    6 against Zoran Kupreskic, Mirjan Kupreskic, Vlatko

    7 Kupreskic, Drago Josipovic, Dragan Papic and Vladimir

    8 Santic, also know as "Vlado."

    9 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Good morning.

    10 Before we start with our next witness, I

    11 gather that the Prosecutor suggested a different list

    12 of witnesses for this week. Actually, it is stated

    13 here it's for the week 24th to 28th of September, but

    14 probably you mean August.

    15 All right. I assume this document has also

    16 been provided to the parties and the court would need

    17 two more copies.

    18 The second point is that in going through the

    19 various witness statements over the weekend, I realised

    20 that one -- I will call it by number, the -- yes.

    21 Number 12, the witness statement for number 12, witness

    22 number 12 in the old list, the list on page 6,

    23 paragraph 5, of the document filed by the Prosecution

    24 on the 19th of August, it is now witness 8 in the new

    25 list which we have just received.

  2. 1 Now, we have received a statement of two

    2 pages, followed by a statement made by a different

    3 witness, so there is a mix up, and in spite of the

    4 pagination, which is correct. I don't know whether

    5 this applies also to the Defence. We have, in any

    6 case, received a document which is the sort of a mix up

    7 of two different statements, so, therefore, none of

    8 them is complete.

    9 Also, we don't have a statement relating to

    10 witness number 8 in the old list, and it's witness

    11 number -- no, it has disappeared from the new list.

    12 Number 8 on the old list, there is no statement.

    13 MR. MOSKOWITZ: No, number 8 is not going to

    14 be testifying.

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: Oh, has dropped out.

    16 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Yes.

    17 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. All right. If

    18 there are no other matters.

    19 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Mr. President, I do have --

    20 we do have another matter that we'd like to take up

    21 before the first witness appears, if we may.

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes.

    23 MR. MOSKOWITZ: This matter relates to the

    24 incident that happened on Friday with the protected

    25 witness.

  3. 1 We have filed, just this morning, a request

    2 that the Trial Chamber issue an order prohibiting

    3 further disclosure of that name from anyone who was in

    4 the gallery at the time the name was mentioned, and any

    5 media who may have been in the gallery at the time the

    6 name was mentioned. The proposed language is, of

    7 course, our proposal, but we have provided that in a

    8 request that the Chamber should be getting at any

    9 moment. I'll be happy to read off the language that we

    10 are proposing.

    11 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, please, because I --

    12 MR. MOSKOWITZ: "The Trial Chamber of the

    13 ICTY, noting that on 20 August, 1998, the Prosecutor

    14 applied to this Trial Chamber for protective measures

    15 on behalf of a witness scheduled to appear at that

    16 time, noting that all counsel for the accused

    17 acquiesced in that request, noting that on that date

    18 this Trial Chamber issued an order designed to protect

    19 the identity of that witness, noting that this witness

    20 did, in fact, testify before this Trial Chamber as a

    21 protected witness on 20 August, 1998; considering that

    22 on the following day, 21 August, 1998, the identity of

    23 that protected witness was disclosed in open session by

    24 Mr. Radovic, Defence counsel for one of the accused,

    25 during his cross-examination of another witness; noting

  4. 1 that this Trial Chamber, upon recognising the

    2 disclosure, acted as quickly as possible by immediately

    3 ordering the appropriate redactions; noting however

    4 that disclosure was made in an open session at which

    5 members of the public and media may have been present

    6 or were present; whereas it is essential --

    7 THE INTERPRETER: Would counsel, slow down,

    8 please?

    9 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Sorry.

    10 ... whereas it is essential to the safety and

    11 security of this witness that his or her identity not

    12 be revealed; and whereas it is crucial to the integrity

    13 of these proceedings that the protection provided to

    14 witnesses by the Trial Chamber be scrupulously observed

    15 so that persons with relevant evidence for the

    16 Prosecution or for the Defence, in this case as well as

    17 in all other cases, will not hesitate to come forward

    18 out of fear for their well-being, orders the media and

    19 members of the public not to further publish or

    20 disclose in any way the identity of the protected

    21 witness named by Defence counsel during

    22 cross-examination on 21 August, 1998.

    23 And that would be the proposed language in

    24 the order.

    25 JUDGE CASSESE: I see. I understand that we

  5. 1 may order the media not to publish or disclose anything

    2 about the identity of this protected witness, but what

    3 about the members of the public? We don't even know

    4 who was there. Anyway --

    5 MR. MOSKOWITZ: I think the Court has the

    6 authority to order members of the public, who

    7 inadvertently -- who happened to be present and heard

    8 the name, to obey the protection order that this court

    9 imposed for the witness. I think it's difficult to

    10 enforce such an order against a member of the public,

    11 but I take the position that the public will have great

    12 respect for this court's order and will obey it, and

    13 the media as well, I believe, will do so.

    14 But in any event, I think there is really not

    15 much else that can be done to try to prevent further

    16 damage, and so we take the position that it would be a

    17 useful thing to do to issue such an order.

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. Yes.

    19 Mr. Radovic?

    20 MR. RADOVIC: Your Honours, the Prosecutor

    21 keeps referring to my slip of the tongue during the

    22 cross-examination of the witness. However, it is

    23 interesting to note that the counsel is requesting

    24 redaction and protective measures regarding this

    25 witness during my cross-examination. However, on page

  6. 1 348, the name was already mentioned, on 348 of the

    2 transcript, but the Prosecutor requested redaction much

    3 later, even though the name was mentioned during the

    4 testimony of witness Ahmic Abdulah. So I don't see the

    5 difference between mentioning the name on Friday and

    6 mentioning the name during the testimony of Abdulah

    7 Ahmic. So it appears that the witness is in jeopardy

    8 only because of my cross-examination and that he was

    9 not in danger during the testimony of Abdulah Ahmic.

    10 So I do not understand the position of the

    11 Prosecution.

    12 Also, I can claim with certainty that after

    13 the testimony of any witness here, nothing happened to

    14 any witness in the territory of the former Yugoslavia.

    15 Of course, I am not opposed to what the

    16 Prosecutor is saying, I'm just drawing your attention

    17 to lack of consistency in his approach.

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Krajina, briefly, please,

    19 so that we don't spend too much time on this procedural

    20 matter.

    21 MR. KRAJINA: Mr. President, if I may, I

    22 would like to address the Court on a different matter

    23 once we close on this point, that is why I just raise

    24 my hand.

    25 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Thank you. Let me ask

  7. 1 Mr. Moskowitz about this inconsistency at page 348. I

    2 don't have transcript close at hand so I can't check.

    3 Any comment?

    4 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Yes, we have a comment on

    5 that, and I think it really goes to the heart of our

    6 concern about what happened on Friday. We certainly

    7 recognise the possibility of slips of the tongue. In

    8 fact, my recollection is that perhaps Ms. Glumac, at

    9 one point, inadvertently had a slip of the tongue, and

    10 it can happen to anyone, and we understand that.

    11 I think we were so concerned about what

    12 happened on Friday because our feeling was that this

    13 was perhaps more than a slip of the tongue, and we went

    14 back and checked the transcript of what happened, and

    15 it appears to reinforce that feeling.

    16 The testimony, as we know, did not appear to

    17 have any relationship with the protected the witness's

    18 prior testimony, first of all.

    19 Second of all, the question had to do with

    20 pointing out an inconsistency of some sort, and

    21 certainly that could be done by simply saying, "We have

    22 had testimony here about such and such, what do you say

    23 about that?" An unfair question in this case, since

    24 there was no inconsistency given the time lapse between

    25 the two witness, but leave that be.

  8. 1 Instead, Mr. Radovic prefaced his question at

    2 some length with, "Do you know a person," and gave the

    3 profession, gave the country from which this person

    4 came, then gave his name. That was serious, but

    5 perhaps not so serious until the next thing happened,

    6 and that is when the witness indicated some uncertainty

    7 about who this person was, as if that was important in

    8 any event.

    9 Mr. Radovic then says this witness, who was a

    10 protected witness, that is he appeared in this court as

    11 a protected witness and testified, so and so and so.

    12 Now, I fail to see what purpose that served,

    13 except to in some way publish the fact that a protected

    14 witness testified in this court. It is hard for us to

    15 see that as a slip of the tongue, and it leaves us with

    16 the impression either that it was deliberate, or that

    17 it was reckless or negligent, and under either

    18 situation would have grave concerns about the ability

    19 of Mr. Radovic to remain as an officer of this court.

    20 And I say that with great caution and sadness, because

    21 I consider Mr. Radovic an extremely able attorney, and

    22 that, I think, is one of the reasons why we are

    23 concerned. He is able, he knows how to put questions.

    24 That has been clear to everyone. He is a good

    25 cross-examiner.

  9. 1 This is not good cross-examination. This

    2 appears to be going far afield to publish for some

    3 reason, or to demonstrate such reckless disregard for

    4 this court's order that it puts into question his

    5 ability to continue to obey this court's orders.

    6 Now, we have other witnesses coming in here

    7 this week who expect to be protected, and we have grave

    8 concerns whether an attorney who has shown such

    9 disregard for the Court's orders in the past will

    10 continue to do so in the future.

    11 And I would also add that we have an

    12 obligation to the witness to alert him to the fact that

    13 his identity had been disclosed, and we contacted the

    14 Bosnian authorities in order to convey that information

    15 to the witness. We have been told that the witness

    16 was, in fact, informed, he is extremely upset, he feels

    17 that his safety and his well-being has been compromised

    18 on the very following day that he testified, and he has

    19 written a letter asking for an inquiry as to the

    20 circumstances behind that disclosure. I think that

    21 request is reasonable. We think that this court, in

    22 fact, has an obligation to do that, that these orders,

    23 particularly protective orders, go to the very heart of

    24 the ability of this Tribunal to secure evidence in

    25 order to arrive at a just conclusion. If those orders

  10. 1 are recklessly, if not deliberately, disobeyed, it is a

    2 very, very serious matter that goes beyond even the

    3 safety of an individual's life or career, or the

    4 well-being of his family, it really goes to the very

    5 heart of how this Tribunal functions, and I think any

    6 Defence attorney, any Prosecutor, who takes on the

    7 obligation to appear before this Tribunal is an officer

    8 of this court, and must obey the orders and must not

    9 conduct himself in such a way as to be reckless and

    10 negligent in following those orders.

    11 Yes, slips of the tongue are excusable. This

    12 appears to be far from a slip of the tongue, and it

    13 must, I think, be looked at seriously, investigated

    14 seriously, and a fact of some sort must be determined

    15 as to the circumstances surrounding this. Otherwise,

    16 it becomes, I think, very difficult for the Prosecutor

    17 to look a witness in the eye and say, "Yes, you will

    18 protected, don't worry." It becomes difficult for us

    19 to do that.

    20 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. We will decide on

    21 this matter in due course and make a ruling, but for

    22 the time being, let me remind all parties that we have

    23 Rule 77, which states in item (a): "Any person who

    24 discloses information relating to proceedings in

    25 knowing violation of an order of the Chamber, commits a

  11. 1 contempt of the Tribunal."

    2 Let me remind, you therefore, that we have

    3 this important rule and we intend to apply it

    4 consistently. If there is any repetition of this

    5 event.

    6 Now, I suggest, as I say, we, for the time

    7 being, we move on to other matters, and let me ask

    8 Mr. Krajina to make his point.

    9 MR. KRAJINA: Mr. President, Your Honours,

    10 may I be allowed to address the Court in order to

    11 clarify a procedural matter having to do with the

    12 calling of witnesses. May I?

    13 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes.

    14 MR. KRAJINA: Thank you. Actually, the

    15 office of the Prosecution has submitted a list of

    16 witness that is it intends to call as Prosecution

    17 witnesses, and as far as I have understood, they have

    18 intimated the possibility of calling other witnesses

    19 who are not on the list. As the Defence of the accused

    20 Vlatko Kupreskic intend to call certain witnesses that

    21 the Prosecution may have an interest in, we would like

    22 to protect those witnesses in such a way as to announce

    23 them as Defence witnesses and ask the Trial Chamber to

    24 forbid contact with those witnesses of ours, if I may

    25 call them that, without our permission, in the same way

  12. 1 as the trial Chamber ruled regarding the Prosecution

    2 request, and, quite correctly, prevented us from

    3 establishing contact with Prosecution witnesses.

    4 Our interest is that these witnesses remain

    5 Defence witnesses so that the Prosecution only has the

    6 right to cross-examine them after our

    7 examination-in-chief. So we would like to appeal to

    8 the time Chamber to instruct us as to the manner in

    9 which we should proceed, and we are ready to provide

    10 the trial Chamber and the Prosecution with a list of

    11 those witnesses, and we also have the necessary

    12 evidence to show that those witnesses have confirmed

    13 their willingness to come to court and testify as

    14 defence witnesses. Thank you.

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    16 All right. Of course we consider that we are

    17 not entitled to ask the Prosecutor to close their list

    18 of witnesses. Under our rules, they have the right to

    19 call witnesses even during the trial. So, therefore,

    20 the best way -- but we do appreciate your problem, and

    21 we are sensitive to your concerns.

    22 So our suggestion is that you should provide

    23 the Court and Prosecution with the list of witnesses

    24 you intend to call and then we will decide what to do,

    25 if there are any witnesses common to both the Defence

  13. 1 and Prosecution, we can decide on that matter. So as

    2 soon as possible, if you could kindly give us a list of

    3 the witnesses you intend to call. All right?

    4 MR. KRAJINA: Thank you very much, Your

    5 Honour.

    6 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I think we are

    7 now in a position to move on to our first witness, and

    8 I wonder whether Prosecution could call Witness B.

    9 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Yes, Mr. President, Witness

    10 B.

    11 JUDGE CASSESE: And what are the protected

    12 measures envisaged for this witness?

    13 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Face protection and name

    14 protection. So he will have his face blocked out.

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: Not his voice?

    16 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Not his voice

    17 (The witness entered court).

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning. We have

    19 decided to call you Witness B. May I ask you to read

    20 out the solemn declaration.

    21 WITNESS: Witness B

    22 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I shall

    23 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the

    24 truth.

    25 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be

  14. 1 seated.

    2 A. Thank you.

    3 MR. MOSKOWITZ: I would ask the usher, at

    4 this time, to hand this exhibit to Witness B, please.

    5 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 62. THE

    6 WITNESS: Yes.

    7 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Moskowitz, you may

    8 proceed.

    9 Examined by Mr. Moskowitz:

    10 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Thank you, Mr. President.

    11 Q. Witness B, you have requested protection

    12 measures, and they have been granted, so I wanted to

    13 just make sure you knew that, and you may feel free to

    14 testify.

    15 Now, could you tell us your age, please?

    16 A. Thirty-seven.

    17 Q. And could you give us just a little bit of

    18 your background, your schooling, if you would, just so

    19 we have that understanding?

    20 A. I completed elementary school in Ahmici and

    21 Vitez, military secondary school in Belgrade, the

    22 military academy in Belgrade and Banja Luka. That is

    23 my background.

    24 Q. When you completed the military training in

    25 Belgrade, would that have been in about 1984, so we

  15. 1 have a sense of timing here?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. And then after your military training in

    4 Belgrade, you joined the JNA, the National Army of

    5 Yugoslavia at that time?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. And rose through the ranks of the JNA to the

    8 rank of Captain, is that right?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. And left the JNA in 1991 when Yugoslavia

    11 began to break up and returned to Central Bosnia in

    12 that year?

    13 A. Yes. Only if I may add something?

    14 Q. Sure.

    15 A. I was in the barracks in Zagreb, and I left

    16 it in August 1991 because I didn't want to participate

    17 in the war against the Croats.

    18 Q. Now, when you returned to Central Bosnia,

    19 where did you go to work and what was your job?

    20 A. By orders of the Presidency of the State of

    21 Bosnia and Herzegovina, we were supposed to report to

    22 the Territorial Defence headquarters. I reported to

    23 the headquarters in Vitez, the Defence headquarters in

    24 Vitez.

    25 Q. And that would have been in about 1991,

  16. 1 sometime during the summer?

    2 A. I didn't report immediately. A bit later.

    3 Q. Now, at the time you reported to the

    4 Territorial Defence in Vitez, could you tell us what

    5 the situation was at the TO regarding Croats and

    6 Muslims? Were they working together or were they

    7 working separately?

    8 A. We were working together.

    9 Q. Did you have a common enemy at that time?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. And that would be the Serb army?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. Could you tell us what your function was at

    14 the Territorial Defence headquarters in Vitez during

    15 that time period when you were all working together?

    16 A. I was the person responsible for security.

    17 If I can explain that?

    18 Q. Certainly. Go ahead.

    19 A. It had to do with dealing with any conflicts

    20 that may occur within the Municipality of Vitez. I had

    21 to provide security for the staff commander, the

    22 collection of information and data within the

    23 Municipality of Vitez and from the frontlines towards

    24 the Serbs.

    25 Q. Were you in uniform during this time period?

  17. 1 A. No.

    2 Q. Were you armed during this time period?

    3 A. No, no.

    4 Q. Was the Territorial Defence in Vitez located

    5 in a particular building at that time?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. Now, did there come a time when Croat members

    8 of the TO split off and established their own

    9 headquarters and their own organisation separate from

    10 the joint operation that you had when you first arrived

    11 in 1991?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. Do you remember about when that was, and I

    14 know it's sometimes difficult to recall specific days,

    15 but give us a general ball park figure, if you can?

    16 A. In the spring of 1992.

    17 Q. What happened in the spring? Why was there a

    18 split, if you recall?

    19 A. The Croats set up a parallel headquarters,

    20 which they called the Stozer, in the hotel. I couldn't

    21 tell you why they separated.

    22 Q. Would this have been the Hotel Vitez where

    23 the Croats established their headquarters?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. What did they call themselves? Did they

  18. 1 change their name from the TO to something else; do you

    2 know?

    3 A. They called themselves the main headquarters

    4 of the HVO.

    5 Q. What does the HVO mean?

    6 A. The Croatian Defence Council.

    7 MR. MOSKOWITZ: At this time, I would ask the

    8 usher, if he would, to show the witness formerly

    9 entered Exhibit P7 and then we will be asking him to

    10 look at Exhibit P9.

    11 Q. Could you tell us what that depicts, Exhibit

    12 P7?

    13 A. It is a panorama view of the town of Vitez.

    14 Q. It's a little bit, I think, difficult to

    15 distinguish individual buildings, and so it may be

    16 unfair to ask you to try to do that. But to the best

    17 of your ability, could you show us, if it's on this

    18 aerial view, the building in which the combined

    19 Territorial Defence was located before there was this

    20 split in '92? There's a pointer right there you can

    21 use.

    22 A. I can. This building, this one here

    23 (indicating).

    24 Q. Could you show us the building where the HVO

    25 had their headquarters in the spring or the summer of

  19. 1 '92, the Hotel Vitez, to the best of your ability?

    2 A. Here (indicating).

    3 Q. Now, before there was this split, you say you

    4 worked together with Croats. Did you work well with

    5 them? Was there a good relationship or was it a bad

    6 relationship, a strained one?

    7 A. It was a strained relationship.

    8 Q. At that time, do you remember any of the

    9 names of the individual Croats who you worked with on a

    10 frequent basis, before the split?

    11 A. Zeljko Sajevic, Livancic, Rebac. We

    12 collaborated well with Ivan Santic. The chief was Pero

    13 Skopljak, Mario Cerkez. These were all people that we

    14 cooperated with. I want to say the following, if I

    15 may?

    16 Q. Go ahead.

    17 A. While we had common interests and the same

    18 enemy, it can be said that we worked well in this

    19 building. This one here (indicating).

    20 Q. That was the building where you were together

    21 jointly for a period of time?

    22 A. Yes, yes. But at the same time, they already

    23 had a section in the hotel.

    24 Q. Did there come a time that the TO that was

    25 left after the Croats moved to the -- after the HVO

  20. 1 moved to the Hotel Vitez, did there come a time that

    2 the TO that was left had to move out of that original

    3 building and go somewhere else, and if so, could you

    4 show us where?

    5 A. Yes. We had to leave that building by orders

    6 of the HVO. We had to move out, the MUP was beneath

    7 us, the police, and we moved out to a house, here

    8 (indicating).

    9 Q. Do you know why the HVO made it necessary for

    10 you to move the TO to that house from the public

    11 building where it was formerly located?

    12 A. I think that at that time already the HVO

    13 engaged in certain ploys, and the commander, Hakija

    14 Cengic, attended a meeting in the hotel, and he was

    15 told about this. I don't know the reason; I just know

    16 that we moved out.

    17 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Can the usher, if he would,

    18 show the P9 exhibit at this point.

    19 Q. Can you tell us what P9 shows?

    20 A. The Vitez Hotel in Vitez.

    21 Q. And that is the hotel you were talking about

    22 where the HVO centred its operations in 1992?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. Now, you've indicated that the Muslim or

    25 Bosniak TO then that was left had to move to a house.

  21. 1 Were there any Croats that moved with you, that stayed

    2 with you, or did all the Croats initially go to the HVO

    3 at the hotel?

    4 A. Some Croats stayed.

    5 Q. Do you remember the names of any of them who

    6 stayed for a while?

    7 A. For about another month there was Zeljko

    8 Sajevic, Blazenko Ramljak, a lady and her daughter, I

    9 can't recall the name now, then Vlatko Males, Anto

    10 Furundzija, Dragan Calic, Nenad Palavra, and another

    11 one, but I can't remember the name.

    12 Q. You mentioned Anto Furundzija as one of the

    13 Croats who stayed with the TO for a period of time, I

    14 think you said a month. Did you come to know Anto

    15 Furundzija fairly well during this time period?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. Were you on a fairly friendly relationship at

    18 this time?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. Now, after the split and after the move to

    21 that house, did you come to know a man by the name of

    22 Vlado Santic?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. Could you tell us who Vlado Santic was in

    25 1992 when you got to know him? What was his position,

  22. 1 rank, and duties, if you know?

    2 A. I don't know his rank, what rank he had, but

    3 his duties were, he was the commander of the HVO

    4 military police.

    5 Q. Did the HVO military police have a sort of

    6 particular kind of uniform that was easily

    7 identifiable?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. Could you describe it, please?

    10 A. They wore a camouflage uniform with white

    11 belts, a white holder for their pistol. They had a

    12 badge which they wore on their jackets, it was in black

    13 leather with a metal badge indicating the words

    14 "Military Police" and the number of that particular

    15 soldier.

    16 Q. What was your understanding of the sort of

    17 functions and duties of the HVO military police at that

    18 time?

    19 A. The HVO police, just as any other police, was

    20 intended to protect the law. It was meant to protect

    21 the citizens, the constitution of the country. This

    22 police, the HVO police, maintained checkpoints, and it

    23 ensured security for the headquarters. It arrested

    24 Bosniaks, it seized trucks carrying humanitarian aid

    25 heading towards Tuzla, Zavidovici, Visoko. They did

  23. 1 everything that was against the Bosniaks. They were

    2 supposed to investigate every murder. Not a single

    3 murder was properly investigated.

    4 Q. At that time, were you receiving complaints

    5 in your official capacity as a security officer? Were

    6 you receiving complaints from citizens about

    7 mistreatment that they were receiving from either the

    8 military HVO or Croat citizens that you felt were not

    9 being properly investigated by the police?

    10 A. Every day.

    11 Q. I know you've mentioned a couple of things

    12 already about what should have been investigated, but

    13 if you could just give us an idea of the kinds of

    14 complaints that you were receiving during this time

    15 period, and we're talking, I think, after the split in

    16 '92, the kinds of complaints that you would be getting

    17 from people so that we have a general understanding of

    18 what was going on then?

    19 A. In the Vitez Hotel, a Bosniak called Trako

    20 was killed. Myself and Ivan Santic were at the

    21 funeral, and this murder was never elucidated even

    22 though it was well-known that Mario Cerkez was in the

    23 hotel at that particular moment.

    24 In the village of Nadioci, in the most brutal

    25 manner, a Bosniak called Esad Salkic was killed. His

  24. 1 house was blown up. I went to the site. He was killed

    2 by Miroslav Bralo, known as Cicko, but they, the HVO,

    3 that is Vlado Santic, never cooperated in investigating

    4 this matter, nor anyone else from the HVO. Neither

    5 Pasko, neither Cerkez, neither Pero Skopljak. There

    6 were daily incidents at the checkpoint, particularly

    7 the checkpoint near the Impregnacija company. I could

    8 show it you on the map.

    9 Q. Would this be the area near the Dubravica --

    10 A. Yes, yes.

    11 Q. Where the mountain road to Zenica meets the

    12 valley road?

    13 A. Yes, yes. That's correct. There was a

    14 checkpoint at Divjak, there was a checkpoint at the

    15 bend of the road going to Travnik, Novi Travnik,

    16 another one at Kaonik, another checkpoint in Lasva.

    17 There were checkpoints all over the place.

    18 Q. These are HVO checkpoints you're talking

    19 about?

    20 A. All of them were HVO. There was not a single

    21 Bosniak checkpoint.

    22 Q. What kind of complaints were you receiving

    23 about these checkpoints from Bosniaks?

    24 A. Bosniaks were stopped there, they were

    25 taunted, they were insulted and cursed at, their money

  25. 1 was seized from them. They confiscated their cars,

    2 lorries. At night, they would shoot, especially during

    3 the night and especially in the area of Ahmici. They

    4 would throw grenades. All this was meant to provoke

    5 the Bosniaks.

    6 Q. Now, having received these kinds of

    7 complaints on a daily basis, did you, in your official

    8 capacity, come to know Vlado Santic?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. Did you, in fact, frequently contact Vlado

    11 Santic regarding these complaints?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. How did you make contact with him? Was it

    14 face to face or by the telephone or by letter?

    15 A. It was both face to face and by telephone.

    16 Q. What precisely was your purpose in making

    17 these contacts with Vlado Santic?

    18 A. I was a person representing the Territorial

    19 Defence staff and I was in charge of contacts for

    20 resolving conflict situations with the HVO. When I

    21 asked for Pero Skopljak from the HVO or Mario Cerkez,

    22 who were commanders, they would refer me to Vlado

    23 Santic. I would establish telephone contact with him

    24 or I would agree on a meeting at the hotel or we would

    25 solve matters over the phone or, rather, try to resolve

  26. 1 them.

    2 Q. And the matters you're referring to are these

    3 complaints that you were receiving, I take it; is that

    4 right?

    5 A. Yes, of course.

    6 Q. Did you, in fact, ever -- were you ever

    7 successful in having Vlado Santic, to your

    8 satisfaction, resolve any of these issues despite your

    9 meetings with him both by phone and in person?

    10 A. No, never.

    11 Q. By the way, you talked about meeting Vlado

    12 Santic face to face. Where would meet him? Would it

    13 be in your home or his home or would it be in the Hotel

    14 Vitez?

    15 A. In the Hotel Vitez.

    16 Q. And would you meet in some public area or

    17 would it be privately in his office?

    18 A. In his office.

    19 Q. Now, we talk about the Hotel Vitez. At this

    20 time, was this really a hotel in any sense of the word,

    21 or was it simply taken over by the HVO in total for

    22 their headquarters?

    23 A. That hotel lost its hotel function. The

    24 hotel was closed to the general public, especially for

    25 Bosniaks. It was the headquarters of the HVO.

  27. 1 The restaurant that used to exist here on the

    2 left was the canteen for the commanders and soldiers of

    3 the HVO.

    4 Q. Now, you indicated that the general public,

    5 particularly Bosniaks, were not allowed into the

    6 hotel. How did you get into the hotel to see Vlado

    7 Santic?

    8 A. First, I would like to add something, if I

    9 may.

    10 The hotel had barbed wire -- a barbed-wire

    11 fence around it. Certain parts, especially on the

    12 other side, were roofed over with timber, the windows

    13 to the offices. The entrance was on the side of the

    14 petrol station, and there was an entrance from the side

    15 where the post office is.

    16 To enter the hotel, I would ring up before

    17 that and agree on a meeting and announce my arrival.

    18 At the entrance to the hotel there were soldiers, and

    19 when I said that I had an appointment, they would know

    20 about it and they would let me in.

    21 Q. Now, do you recall a time when you were in

    22 Vlado Santic's office where you saw your former

    23 colleague Anto Furundzija? Do you recall a time like

    24 that?

    25 A. No.

  28. 1 JUDGE CASSESE: We're wondering whether you

    2 need to put questions about Furundzija, who is accused

    3 in a different trial.

    4 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Yes. Well, Your Honour, Mr.

    5 President, we do feel it is relevant to this case and

    6 particularly to Mr. Santic, because it connects to the

    7 Jokers unit which participated in the massacre in

    8 Ahmici, and, therefore, ties in Vlado Santic as an

    9 aider and abettor through that connection. So we do

    10 feel it's important to show the connection between

    11 Santic and the Jokers, and I will have additional

    12 evidence later to tie in that connection even more

    13 tightly. So this is preparatory to that.

    14 JUDGE MAY: Well, Mr. Moskowitz, a moment.

    15 Furundzija is being tried in another case by this Trial

    16 Chamber. Now, if you are proposing to call evidence

    17 prejudicial to him, I think we need to consider that,

    18 because he's not here and he's not represented. So is

    19 there a way in which you could deal with this without

    20 reference to him specifically?

    21 MR. MOSKOWITZ: I'm not sure if there is a

    22 way to do that. It is, of course, true that he is not

    23 represented, and, therefore, any evidence that comes

    24 into this case with reference to Mr. Furundzija, in my

    25 view, cannot be used against him in the other case.

  29. 1 Yes, it is before this trial Chamber, but I think this

    2 Trial Chamber is fully capable of, compartmentalising

    3 that evidence, and certainly Mr. Furundzija should not

    4 be held accountable for any evidence that comes into

    5 this case with reference to him.

    6 Unfortunately, in this case, in order to tie

    7 Vlado Santic into the crimes in Ahmici and in order to

    8 make some sense of the later testimony, the connection

    9 between Santic and Furundzija, I'm afraid, is

    10 necessary.

    11 JUDGE CASSESE: We have decided that you may

    12 proceed, however, it should be clear that whatever

    13 evidence is produced which may affect Mr. Furundzija

    14 will not be regarded as evidence in the case against

    15 Furundzija because he is not here and is not

    16 represented, as Judge May pointed out. So we will

    17 disregard what evidence is produced relating to

    18 Furundzija. You may proceed.

    19 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Thank you, Mr. President.

    20 Q. The question, again, is: Do you recall a

    21 time when you were talking with Vlado Santic in his

    22 office in the way that you've described, that you did

    23 frequently, when you saw your former colleague,

    24 Furundzija, at the Hotel Vitez? And if you recall

    25 that, could you tell us and describe, if you would, the

  30. 1 circumstances surrounding that meeting?

    2 A. Yes. I was sitting in the office talking to

    3 Santic about two cars that had been confiscated from

    4 Bosniaks and negotiating on their return. Anto

    5 Furundzija opened the door, he was wearing a uniform,

    6 carrying a pistol and a gun. His face was masked with

    7 cream. He was holding a helmet in his hand.

    8 When he saw me he was taken aback. He said,

    9 "Good day," and I responded, and he told Santic, "It's

    10 all right, we're back." At the same time, I saw quite

    11 a few soldiers passing down the corridor. They were

    12 all sweaty and their faces were painted.

    13 Q. Do you recall whether Santic indicated

    14 anything back to Anto Furundzija at that time?

    15 A. Well, yes. He asked, "How did it go? Is

    16 everything all right?" And he said they should put

    17 away their equipment and lunch would be ready soon,

    18 something like that.

    19 Q. Did you form an opinion at that time, as you

    20 observed the two men together, Furundzija and Santic,

    21 did you form an opinion as to the command relationship

    22 between those two men?

    23 A. Yes. I thought they were in a command

    24 relationship, that they were connected, because both of

    25 them were wearing white belts, white belts, which is a

  31. 1 sign of belonging to the same unit or a similar unit.

    2 Q. And did you form an opinion as to who was the

    3 superior of the other?

    4 A. It's my opinion, but I'm not certain, that at

    5 that moment, at that moment, Santic was the superior.

    6 Q. Now, during this time period, and again

    7 referring to 1992, did you have occasion to frequently

    8 visit Ahmici, the village of Ahmici, for personal

    9 reasons, and don't go into those reasons at this point,

    10 but answer yes or no if that's true?

    11 A. Yes, often.

    12 Q. And in order to -- by the way, you were not

    13 living in Ahmici at that time, were you?

    14 A. No.

    15 Q. But in a village not far away; is that true?

    16 A. Yes, yes.

    17 Q. And you would often, I assume, go from Vitez

    18 to Ahmici in order to make those visits; is that true?

    19 A. Yes; that's correct.

    20 Q. In order to go from Vitez to Ahmici, did you

    21 have to pass any checkpoints?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. And tell us where these checkpoints were, or

    24 if only one, where that one was?

    25 A. Depending on the time when I was going there,

  32. 1 when times were, let us say, normal, there was a

    2 checkpoint at Impregnacija.

    3 Q. That's the one of which you spoke of earlier

    4 near the Dubravica school area?

    5 A. Yes, yes. There was always a checkpoint

    6 there. That one was never taken down. And the others

    7 were set up depending on the situation on the ground.

    8 Q. This may be a little bit awkward, and I'm not

    9 sure it's possible, I haven't checked in advance with

    10 the usher, so I apologise for that, but just for

    11 clarity's sake, it might be useful to demonstrate where

    12 this Dubravica area is. We have that large aerial in

    13 the back. I could easily ask the witness to proceed to

    14 that aerial and show Vitez, show Ahmici, and then show

    15 where the Dubravica checkpoint was, if that is

    16 permitted.

    17 JUDGE CASSESE: I understand, however, that

    18 he if goes there his face cannot be distorted, so

    19 therefore, we can't protect him. The Registrar is

    20 suggesting that after the break they could move here

    21 the big picture so that he may identify the relevant

    22 point.

    23 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Thank you. That's fine.

    24 Q. Now, do you recall a time during one of your

    25 trips to Ahmici that you ran into or met with

  33. 1 Mr. Furundzija, your former colleague?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. And where was that?

    4 A. It was at the Dubravica checkpoint.

    5 Q. On that day, did you actually go through the

    6 checkpoint, or did you stop before the checkpoint or

    7 were you stopped at the checkpoint?

    8 A. At the checkpoint was always a very strong

    9 checkpoint. It was a dug-out machine-gun nest. There

    10 were obstacles. I avoided going to Ahmici on a daily

    11 basis because of that checkpoint, but I had to. And I

    12 wanted to see what the situation at the checkpoint was,

    13 and to test the reaction.

    14 Once, in the autumn of 1992, when I was

    15 taking a trip there, I saw that there was some problems

    16 before I arrived at the checkpoint. There were many

    17 soldiers, there was a truck that had been stopped. Of

    18 course, it was a Bosniak truck carrying humanitarian

    19 aid to Kakanj.

    20 I was on my way from Vitez, and I stopped

    21 some 20 metres away from the checkpoint before I

    22 reached it. At the same time, from the other side,

    23 from the direction of Ahmici, Anto Furundzija arrived.

    24 He passed through and stopped at the point where I

    25 was. I was standing beside my car, he approached me

  34. 1 and we greeted one another. That's where we met.

    2 Q. Did you have a conversation at that time, you

    3 and Mr. Furundzija?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. What do you recall about that conversation?

    6 A. I asked him, "What's this," at the

    7 checkpoint, and he replied that he didn't know either.

    8 Since we had been in the Territorial Defence staff

    9 together and I know that he joined the HVO later, I

    10 asked him, "Where are you now?"

    11 First, let me say that he was wearing a

    12 uniform with a white belt, and he had a pistol case

    13 which was slung low. He was wearing it like a cowboy.

    14 He said he was now the commander of a special unit

    15 based in the Bungalow.

    16 Q. You referred to a place called the Bungalow.

    17 Did you understand what he meant by the Bungalow, and

    18 could you tell us where that is?

    19 A. Yes. The Bungalow is a motel close to

    20 Ahmici. It's a place we used to go swimming, because

    21 there was a river close by at the place called

    22 Seliste. The village of Nadioci is there. I can show

    23 it on the map if you like.

    24 Q. I think we'll probably arrange the

    25 demonstration of the map for a later time but, yes, we

  35. 1 will ask you to do that when we can establish the

    2 proper technology.

    3 What was Mr. Furundzija's sort of demeanour

    4 or attitude as he was talking to you about his new

    5 command, at the Bungalow?

    6 A. Well, you know, he was a young man, and he

    7 was now in a situation where he was the boss, where he

    8 was the commander of a unit, and as such he was full of

    9 himself. He was very arrogant. He was driving cars,

    10 he had an escort, and I think that because of all this

    11 he was rather naive and he said a lot of things,

    12 because he didn't know what would happen later.

    13 Q. Now, do you recall the first conflict that

    14 occurred in Ahmici?

    15 A. I apologise, but I wouldn't call it a

    16 conflict at all. I would call it the first attack of

    17 the HVO of Central Bosnia against the village of

    18 Ahmici.

    19 Q. Were you in Ahmici during that first attack?

    20 A. No.

    21 Q. Were you part of the command decision to set

    22 up a barricade in Ahmici? Did you take part in that

    23 decision?

    24 A. Again, I wouldn't call this a barricade, I

    25 would prefer to call it an obstruction of the road, and

  36. 1 I did not participate in making this decision and I did

    2 not command or make any decisions. There were

    3 superiors above me who did that. It was up to me only

    4 to gather as much information as possible and take it

    5 to them.

    6 MR. MOSKOWITZ: This may be a good point to

    7 take the recess.

    8 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. We rise now for 30

    9 minutes.

    10 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

    11 --- On resuming at 11.33 a.m.

    12 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, Mrs. Glumac?

    13 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Mr. President, may I be

    14 allowed to ask a question linked to the problem of

    15 witness protection because we are going to hear three

    16 to four protected witnesses now, and the Prosecutor has

    17 mentioned my name too as having disclosed the name of

    18 one of the witnesses, and this has been done by

    19 colleague Radovic as well, and I see that the letter

    20 addressed by Bosnia-Herzegovina mentions us as well.

    21 I just wanted to clear up this point. I

    22 understand that I must not disclose the identity of a

    23 witness, but he was one of the factual witnesses and we

    24 have to establish his relevance and the events linked

    25 to him.

  37. 1 Therefore, we are in a position to have to

    2 use his name, and I think that we should be allowed to

    3 do that as part of the cross-examination but, of

    4 course, we mustn't mention his identity as a witness in

    5 this trial because he is protected only as a witness.

    6 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Moskowitz?

    7 MR. MOSKOWITZ: It seems to me that if

    8 Defence counsel feel it necessary to mention a

    9 protected witness's name, we could go into closed

    10 session at that point, and it's merely a matter of

    11 Defence counsel seeking the indulgence of the Court to

    12 do so.

    13 On that point as well, I think I sort of made

    14 our position clear that it was our view that this was

    15 not intentional or reckless behaviour on Mrs. Glumac's

    16 part and we don't raise any issue in that regard, and

    17 we see it as quite a different issue with respect to

    18 Mr. Radovic. Mr. Radovic also, I think, made the

    19 argument that there was an inconsistent position being

    20 taken by the Prosecutor in that when Mrs. Glumac

    21 mentioned the name of the witness, there was nothing

    22 done about it, and having checked the record, that is

    23 simply not true. When the slip was made, I remember

    24 now vividly doing something rather awkward and

    25 interrupting the proceedings and asking for a little

  38. 1 more protection than perhaps we needed, having been a

    2 little unfamiliar with the procedure myself, but we did

    3 attempt, and I think succeed, in redacting the record

    4 with regard to those names.

    5 So I think there is no inconsistent position

    6 that we are taking at all, and I think the difference

    7 between Mrs. Glumac and Mr. Radovic merely underscores

    8 our concern.

    9 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. But I think that

    10 we could stick to your suggestion; namely, that

    11 whenever the Defence counsel feel that it is necessary

    12 to mention the name of a witness, they can ask to go

    13 into a closed session and then we can go into a closed

    14 session so that they may be allowed to disclose those

    15 names.

    16 Is that fine with you, Mrs. Glumac?

    17 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Yes, thank you. But I

    18 would like to put another question. Actually, there

    19 will be more protected witnesses in the future. In

    20 fact, a large number of them, judging by the list, and

    21 we agree with that in principle.

    22 But the situation was such that this witness

    23 was not a protected witness. He became a protected

    24 witness by the ruling of the Court.

    25 So what will we do with the witnesses who may

  39. 1 appear this week or next week so we may not mention

    2 them either? So we find ourselves in a very difficult

    3 situation. How are we going to verify any fact? We

    4 will have to see whether the Prosecution intends to

    5 protect the witness later on because I mentioned the

    6 name also in this case before that witness became a

    7 protected witness.

    8 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I thought a

    9 solution would lie in getting from the Prosecution

    10 every week a list of the witnesses they intend to call

    11 with, as they did this week, this morning we received a

    12 good document, also with the indication of whether or

    13 not any particular witness would be a protected witness

    14 and, if so, what sort of protection they are seeking

    15 for that witness.

    16 So if probably a week in advance, you will

    17 receive this list and we can advance. This may

    18 probably meet your needs. We can't rule in abstracto

    19 on this matter. Let us proceed on a pragmatic basis,

    20 so as to take into account your needs and your concerns

    21 and your demands and also the need to protect the

    22 witnesses. All right?

    23 Let's go back to our witness. If the

    24 Prosecution want to ask him to identify particular

    25 places on the map, I understand from the registry we

  40. 1 need to go into a closed session, if only for a few

    2 minutes.

    3 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Yes. I think that would be

    4 helpful to the Court for him to do that, and I realise,

    5 as I was thinking about some of the questions that I

    6 think must be asked of this witness, that there may be

    7 additional questions that would tend to reveal his

    8 identity merely through his answers to those questions;

    9 specifically, his relationships to other people, which

    10 are relevant, I think, for his testimony. Maybe this

    11 would be a good time, while we are in closed session,

    12 to pose those questions as well.

    13 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Shall we move

    14 into closed session right away or later on?

    15 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Right away.

    16 JUDGE CASSESE: Right away. All right. Now,

    17 the registrar will make sure that we are in closed

    18 session. Are we now?

    19 THE REGISTRAR: Not yet.

    20 JUDGE CASSESE: Not yet.

    21 THE REGISTRAR: We are in closed session.

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: I understand we are now in

    23 closed session, so you may proceed.

    24 (Closed session)

    25 (redacted)

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    25 (Open session)

  44. 1 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Thank you.

    2 Q. Now, we left off with the first conflict or

    3 the first attack, as you refer. Did you continue to

    4 make personal visits to the village of Ahmici following

    5 that first attack?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. During one of those personal visits, were you

    8 prevented from taking the road into Ahmici by a

    9 checkpoint?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. Could you describe where that checkpoint was

    12 and who was manning it?

    13 A. Shall I just speak or shall I stand up and

    14 point at the same time?

    15 Q. Just speak.

    16 A. Sometime roughly -- I can't tell you exactly

    17 whether it was the seventh or eighth day after this

    18 large-scale attack on Ahmici, when the entire Bosniak

    19 population was chased out, a part of the houses

    20 destroyed, places of worship damaged, I headed for

    21 Ahmici. I was alone in a car. I was driving there.

    22 I got as far as the turn-in to Ahmici.

    23 However, the road to Ahmici was blocked. There were

    24 certain obstacles placed there. There were two

    25 soldiers armed with rifles and they stopped me.

  45. 1 Q. What happened -- I'm sorry. Continue.

    2 A. They told me, while I was standing there,

    3 from Dragan Papic's house, across the fields, Dragan

    4 Papic came running and said to me that I couldn't enter

    5 the village because they had no permission to allow

    6 anyone in. I didn't want to argue with him, and I

    7 returned to Vitez and I informed the staff about it.

    8 Q. Could you tell us how Mr. Papic was dressed

    9 when he informed you that you could not enter the

    10 village, that you didn't have permission to do so?

    11 A. He was in a uniform. There was a black

    12 blouse and a camouflage vest and he had a rifle, it was

    13 an old model, an M-48, like a carbine.

    14 Q. Could you tell whether this rifle that

    15 Mr. Papic was carrying, did it have a sniper scope on

    16 it or didn't it?

    17 A. No, it didn't. At the time? No.

    18 Q. Is this the kind of weapon that would be

    19 easily fitted with a sniper scope and could be removed

    20 quickly and easily?

    21 A. Yes. That is, in fact, done.

    22 Q. You mention that there were two soldiers at

    23 this checkpoint. Were they also in uniform and armed?

    24 A. Yes. They were wearing camouflage uniforms.

    25 They had rifles, automatic rifles, a Kalashnikov-type

  46. 1 rifle.

    2 Q. Did you see any other weapons nearby covering

    3 that checkpoint?

    4 A. On the main road going towards Busovaca, a

    5 little further down, there was a kind of shelter, kind

    6 of small bunker with obstacles and nothing else. There

    7 was the stop sign.

    8 Q. Did you see any machine guns in the

    9 vicinity?

    10 A. On that day, no.

    11 Q. Now, you mentioned personal visits to

    12 Ahmici. After that particular visit to Ahmici, when

    13 you were stopped from going into the village by

    14 soldiers and by Dragan Papic, did you return on an

    15 official visit later on?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. Could you tell us about that first official

    18 visit and how that came about?

    19 A. The first official visit occurred roughly

    20 after two weeks, 14 days, something like that. We were

    21 working on the return of Bosniaks to Ahmici.

    22 A representative of the International Red

    23 Cross came to the Vitez hotel. Pero Skopljak called

    24 Sefkija and told him that someone should come, that

    25 these people wanted to go to Ahmici to see what had

  47. 1 happened there.

    2 Q. By "these people" you mean the

    3 representatives of the Red Cross?

    4 A. Yes, yes. I went to the hotel together with

    5 Faud Kaknjo, who was the representative of the

    6 political body. We entered Marijan Skopljak's office

    7 in the hotel, Pero Skopljak, Mario Cerkez, Faud Kaknjo,

    8 myself and a representative of the International Red

    9 Cross. After a discussion, we headed for Ahmici.

    10 Pero Skopljak took us to the Catholic

    11 cemetery first. Allegedly he wanted to indicate that

    12 the Bosniaks had put up very strong resistance there

    13 using heavy weapons and that the tombstones had been

    14 destroyed. We looked and looked, and we didn't find a

    15 single tombstone that had been destroyed. He probably

    16 felt embarrassed that at least one of them hadn't

    17 destroyed one just to prove his point.

    18 We then returned to the school, or rather, we

    19 went as far as the religious building, the mosque.

    20 This is the mosque next to the school, the one with the

    21 minaret. It was very badly damaged. It was obvious

    22 that these were not bullets from rifles but, rather,

    23 shells from guns.

    24 Then we went on a little further upwards, as

    25 far as roughly the houses where I used to live. Then

  48. 1 we returned, we went to the village of Tolovici, and

    2 from there we returned to Vitez.

    3 Q. You mentioned going to the mosque. In order

    4 to do that, you would have had to take the road into

    5 Ahmici, which the day before, or earlier, you said had

    6 been blocked. How were you able to get into the

    7 village on the day the Red Cross was there? Was there

    8 a checkpoint in place at that time?

    9 A. No, there wasn't a checkpoint there. It's

    10 generally known why there wasn't a checkpoint there

    11 then.

    12 Q. Why do you think there wasn't a checkpoint

    13 there at that time?

    14 A. From the Vitez headquarters of the HVO, they

    15 told the commanders of the checkpoint to remove the

    16 checkpoint so that international forces would not see

    17 that it was the Croats manning the checkpoint there,

    18 because, of course, they always wanted to say that the

    19 Bosniaks were the ones who were shooting, attacking,

    20 and on all occasions it was the Bosniaks who were

    21 driven away and whose houses were burnt down.

    22 Q. Now, do you recall your next official visit

    23 to Ahmici after the Red Cross visit, and tell us how

    24 that came about?

    25 A. Yes. The visit by the International Red

  49. 1 Cross yielded a result in the sense of reconciliation.

    2 So we agreed that on the following day, we would go and

    3 visit the very spot on the ground. In the meantime,

    4 the people who would pass by on the Zenica/Busovaca

    5 road or coming down from Ahmici and who were able to

    6 see said that there was a checkpoint there. I rang up

    7 the hotel, and we agreed that we should go there to

    8 Ahmici, with the aim of taking down the checkpoint.

    9 I went there in a car of the Lada make, with

    10 the driver, Mario Cerkez. We met at the petrol station

    11 near the hotel and we went to Ahmici.

    12 Q. Did you ride in separate automobiles or did

    13 you ride with Mr. Cerkez in his automobile?

    14 A. We went in separate cars, in separate cars.

    15 I -- we didn't -- well, we weren't rich, so we had an

    16 old Lada which was left over from the TO, the

    17 Territorial Defence headquarters, and they already had

    18 luxury cars.

    19 We arrived in Ahmici. In Ahmici there was a

    20 checkpoint. The checkpoint was located from the road

    21 to Ahmici toward Papic's house about 15 or 20 metres,

    22 where there is a widening of the road for a bus-stop.

    23 There were obstacles there, the metal cross-shaped

    24 obstacles for tanks, and there was a dugout with

    25 sandbags there, and in the dugout was an M-72 light

  50. 1 machine-gun. There were about seven soldiers there.

    2 Nenad Antic was there. I stopped my vehicle here to

    3 the left at the entrance to Ahmici.

    4 Mario Cerkez got out of his car and he had

    5 Dragan Papic and Nenad Santic in his car. They were

    6 about 30 metres away from me, and I couldn't hear what

    7 they were talking about.

    8 Cerkez was wearing a uniform, Nenad Santic

    9 was wearing civilian clothes, and Dragan Papic was

    10 wearing a uniform. The soldiers had guns.

    11 After their conversation, Dragan Papic

    12 ordered the soldiers to remove the checkpoint. They

    13 removed the checkpoint. Cerkez only told me, "It's all

    14 right, there will be no problems," and he said nothing

    15 else.

    16 After that, they all went to the yard toward

    17 Dragan Papic's house, and I went back to Vitez.

    18 Q. You mentioned there was a light machine-gun.

    19 Can you give us an idea of how big or how light this

    20 particular machine-gun was?

    21 A. A light machine-gun was not a heavy weapon.

    22 It was the kind of light machine-gun produced in

    23 Kargojevic (Phoen). A little bigger than a automatic

    24 rifle, but it's barrel is a little longer and it had a

    25 stand, and a round of 30 bullets can be put in. It can

  51. 1 be carried by one soldier in the same way that a

    2 soldier carries a gun-- a rifle.

    3 Q. So this was an extremely mobile weapon which

    4 could be moved around quite easily by even one soldier

    5 then; is that what you're saying?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. Now, you said that Dragan Papic and the other

    8 soldiers went into the Papic house. Did you see what

    9 happened to the machine-gun? Where did it go, if you

    10 recall?

    11 A. Everything was taken away, together with the

    12 weapons. They all went down there.

    13 Q. "Down there" meaning to Mr. Papic's house?

    14 A. Yes, yes.

    15 Q. Now, based on what you observed out there,

    16 could you give us an idea of -- or did you form an

    17 opinion as to the command structure of the individuals

    18 present at that checkpoint, starting perhaps with

    19 Mr. Cerkez and going down and describing what you view

    20 as the command structure of the other folks who were at

    21 the checkpoint?

    22 A. You mean at that moment at the checkpoint?

    23 Q. That's correct, yes. If, indeed, you formed

    24 an opinion and can state it here.

    25 A. Yes. All the orders, all the directives for

  52. 1 all the checkpoints came from the hotel. There were

    2 several people there, if you go from the top who gave

    3 orders for the setting up of checkpoints. And at the

    4 checkpoint itself, Mario Cerkez was the commander. He

    5 was a commander at the chief staff of the HVO in the

    6 hotel, and he gave orders to the commander of the

    7 checkpoint. And according to what I saw, I was able to

    8 conclude that the checkpoint was under the command of

    9 the Dragan Papic.

    10 Q. And what led you to conclude that?

    11 A. After the conversation, when Mario Cerkez had

    12 Nenad Santic and Dragan Papic in front of him, there

    13 followed a response by Dragan Papic, who made a gesture

    14 with his arm, telling the soldiers to remove all the

    15 obstacles, to remove the checkpoint and to go into the

    16 yard.

    17 Q. Now, after everyone, as you testified

    18 earlier, then went into Mr. Papic's house, I believe

    19 you said you did not go into Mr. Papic's house; is that

    20 right?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. Did you remain in the village at that time,

    23 or did you return to Vitez?

    24 A. I can say that the gentleman did not invite

    25 me in, and after that I returned to Vitez.

  53. 1 Q. Can you recall still another official visit

    2 to Ahmici that you made at about this same time

    3 period?

    4 A. Yes, yes. It all happened very fast, because

    5 it was very important to bring the women, the children,

    6 the old men who were in the woods back to their homes

    7 which had been abandoned, because in the houses -- but

    8 I don't mean the houses, I mean in the cow sheds and

    9 the farm buildings, there were livestock, cows, sheep,

    10 and they were hungry, they had to be fed. So it was

    11 very important for the people to go back, and I wanted

    12 us to take action at once.

    13 So that we agreed that on the following day,

    14 we would go back into the field and talk to the local

    15 HVO commanders, asking them to guarantee the safety and

    16 security of the Bosniak population so that they could

    17 return to their homes.

    18 Q. So what did you do?

    19 A. The staff contacted the HVO staff. I am

    20 referring to Sefkija, and he agreed we should visit the

    21 spot, and again, I was the one who played this role of

    22 mediation and of resolving these conflict situations as

    23 a kind of peacemaker.

    24 Pero Skopljak told me that I could go to

    25 Ahmici, that I could get to Nenad Santic's house, and

  54. 1 we would then go together to inspect the field. Again,

    2 I got into my car, I went to Nenad Santic's house, and

    3 from there we went to Zoran Kupreskic's house.

    4 Nenad Santic, while I was at his home, told

    5 me there would be no problem, that we would now go to

    6 Zoran's, because he was the commander of that area, and

    7 that we should agree with him so that there would be no

    8 problems regarding the return.

    9 Q. Before you go on, I would like to clarify a

    10 couple of things.

    11 Did Mr. Skopljak accompany you to Ahmici on

    12 that day that you went to Nenad Santic's house?

    13 A. I think he didn't. I can't remember now, but

    14 I think he did not. I can't remember exactly.

    15 Q. And you mentioned Nenad Santic. Could you

    16 tell us who Nenad Santic was, and approximately what

    17 part of the village he lived in Ahmici?

    18 A. Nenad Santic was the Commander in Chief of

    19 the area gravitating from Vitez toward Santici, Zume,

    20 Ahmici. I don't know what they called it, but he was

    21 the Commander in Chief of the HVO in that area.

    22 Q. Now, when you arrived at Nenad Santic's

    23 house, and perhaps you could describe at this point

    24 approximately where in the village that house is

    25 located, but when you arrived at his house, what did he

  55. tell you?

    2 First tell us where the house is, and then

    3 tell us what kind of conversation you had with

    4 Mr. Santic.

    5 A. The house? I would have to get up.

    6 Q. Perhaps if you just try to describe it now,

    7 and maybe at the end of your testimony we can go back

    8 into closed session and you can point out a couple of

    9 things.

    10 A. Well, this is Santici, then there is a bend

    11 in the road and then it's to the right.

    12 JUDGE CASSESE: I understand we are moving

    13 into closed session.

    14 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Are we in closed session now

    15 then?

    16 THE REGISTRAR: We are.

    17 (Closed session)

    18 (redacted)

    19 (redacted)

    20 (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)

  56. 1 (redacted)

    2 (redacted)

    3 (redacted)

    4 (Open session)

    5 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session.

    6 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Thank you.

    7 Q. Now, could you tell us the gist of the

    8 conversation that you had with Mr. Santic at his home

    9 that day?

    10 A. I didn't go into the house. The conversation

    11 took place in front of the house. He knew that I was

    12 coming, because they had told him from Vitez that I was

    13 coming. And he only said, "Well, I'll come out now and

    14 we'll go and visit the other commanders in the field,

    15 and we'll sit down with them when we get there."

    16 Q. And then where did you proceed after that?

    17 A. After that, we went to Zoran Kupreskic's

    18 house.

    19 Q. Did you go alone or were you accompanied by

    20 Mr. Santic and others?

    21 A. We went together but separately.

    22 Q. And what did you do when you arrived in your

    23 car at the home of Zoran Santic -- I'm sorry, Zoran

    24 Kupreskic. My mistake.

    25 A. Zoran Kupreskic knew we were coming, because

  57. 1 he had been told either by telephone or radio

    2 receiver. We arrived at the house, and we said, "Good

    3 day," and we went into the house.

    4 Q. And can you tell us the basic conversation

    5 that occurred inside the house of Zoran Kupreskic?

    6 A. We sat down inside the house. Nenad Santic

    7 explained the purpose of our visit, and said that we

    8 had come with the aim of returning or making it

    9 possible for the Bosniaks to return, and that Zoran

    10 should provide security and guarantee that there would

    11 be no problems on the occasion of the return of these

    12 people.

    13 Q. Did you see any weapons inside Zoran

    14 Kupreskic's house while you were there?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. What did you see and where was it in the

    17 house?

    18 A. There's a staircase when you go in and then

    19 you turn right, and in the corridor, in a corner near

    20 the door, there was a rifle and an army pack and

    21 helmet.

    22 Q. Do you recall how Mr. Kupreskic reacted to

    23 the statement from Nenad Santic?

    24 A. He reacted positively and he promised there

    25 would be no problems. He even expressed regret that

  58. 1 all this had occurred, and he said that he personally

    2 would take action to make sure there were no problems.

    3 Q. Where did you and the others go after that

    4 meeting was concluded?

    5 A. After that, we went to Ivica Kupreskic's

    6 house, which is about 50 metres away from that place.

    7 Q. Is that house basically across the road from

    8 Zoran Kupreskic's house?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. Could you tell us what transpired in Ivica

    11 Kupreskic's house?

    12 A. We sat down on the terrace of the house and

    13 we talked about the same topic as before in the house

    14 of Zoran.

    15 Q. Was the reaction from Ivica the same as

    16 Zoran's?

    17 A. Yes. Yes, and he promised that -- they had

    18 promised that they would take away the landmines which

    19 had been set up in the direction of Pirici and in the

    20 upper part of Ahmici. They had their guards, their

    21 patrols, up there in certain places. They said they

    22 would withdraw all of that and that the people could

    23 start returning to their homes.

    24 Q. Had you known about those landmines before or

    25 was this the first that you had heard, that there were,

  59. 1 in fact, landmines planted by the HVO and that Ivica

    2 knew about them?

    3 A. Yes, Ivica, with I don't know who,

    4 participated in placing these landmines. He probably

    5 had a certain munitions depot which included landmines

    6 and explosive devices, and I know this because a

    7 Bosniak called Meho Hrustanovic, he and his wife were

    8 also killed on the 16th of April in front of their

    9 house.

    10 After the first clash, he started out from

    11 Vrhovine towards his house, and Ivica Kupreskic

    12 probably saw him coming, he knew there were landmines

    13 there, and Ivica ran up and yelled at him to stop, to

    14 stop, not to proceed because there were landmines

    15 there, and this man went back, he went back towards

    16 another village to the north of Ahmici.

    17 JUDGE CASSESE: I'm sorry, Mr. Moskowitz.

    18 Have you got a few more questions on this particular

    19 issue or can we stop here and ...

    20 MR. MOSKOWITZ: It would be, I think, a

    21 logical place to stop in maybe five minutes?

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: All right.


    24 Q. Did you go to a third house on that

    25 particular visit to Ahmici?

  60. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. Which house was that?

    3 A. We went to Ivo Papic's house, yes. That is

    4 Dragan Papic's house, and his father is Ivo Papic.

    5 Q. Whose decision was it to go to Ivo Papic's

    6 house, your decision or Nenad Santic's decision?

    7 A. Nenad Santic was in charge of everything. He

    8 was the one taking me to where we were supposed to go.

    9 I didn't know who to visit, but Nenad Santic was the

    10 one who said, "Let's go to Zoran's, let's go to

    11 Ivica's, let's go to Ivo's," or Dragan Papic's house

    12 because they were living together.

    13 Q. Tell us again what transpired at the Ivo

    14 Papic house, please?

    15 A. The same. The same. I won't repeat this.

    16 We agreed on the same. The same things were agreed on,

    17 were promised, and we went back to Vitez. I reported

    18 to the commander and the staff that an agreement had

    19 been reached and that the people could go back.

    20 MR. MOSKOWITZ: This may be a good point to

    21 stop.

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: We rise now and we will

    23 reconvene at ten past two.

    24 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.37 p.m.


  61. 1

    2 --- On resuming at 2.12 p.m.

    3 JUDGE CASSESE: Good afternoon.

    4 Mr. Moskowitz?

    5 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Good afternoon,

    6 Mr. President.

    7 JUDGE CASSESE: Do you think, Mr. Moskowitz,

    8 you can conclude your examination-in-chief before the

    9 coffee break? I hope so.

    10 MR. MOSKOWITZ: I intend to.

    11 JUDGE CASSESE: Good.

    12 (The witness entered)


    14 Q. Good afternoon.

    15 A. Good afternoon.

    16 MR. MOSKOWITZ: I would like to start off by

    17 asking the usher to show several exhibits that have

    18 already been entered into evidence to the witness,

    19 beginning with Exhibit P34.

    20 Q. Now, Exhibit P34 has been placed on the ELMO

    21 machine next to you. Does that look familiar? Do

    22 those houses look familiar, and if so, could you

    23 identify them for us?

    24 A. Yes. The houses of the Kupreskics.

    25 Q. Could you say which house is which?

  62. 1 A. This is Zoran Kupreskic's house and this is

    2 Ivica Kupreskic's house (indicating).

    3 Q. So for purposes of the record then, you're

    4 pointing to the house that appears on the right as

    5 Zoran's house and the house that appears on the left as

    6 Ivica's house; is that correct?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. Now, are those the two houses you went to on

    9 that day that you've described where you and Mr. Nenad

    10 Santic were going around to the commanders of Ahmici to

    11 talk about the return of the civilians after the first

    12 attack?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Can the usher now show the

    15 witness Exhibit 30?

    16 Q. Can you identify Exhibit 30, please?

    17 A. This is Ivo Papic's house or, rather, Dragan

    18 Papic lived there too.

    19 Q. You have mentioned going into that house as

    20 well with Mr. Santic --

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. -- to talk about the return of civilians?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. Thank you. Now, you've also spoken about the

    25 Hotel Vitez. Would you tell us, during this time

  63. 1 period, and I'm talking about the time period now

    2 between the first attack and the second attack, that

    3 is, between October and April, October '92, April '93,

    4 how often did you pass by the Hotel Vitez, not enter it

    5 but pass by it on your way to and from various places?

    6 A. I passed there every day, sometimes five,

    7 ten. It depended on the day. Five or ten times.

    8 Q. Do you know Vlatko Kupreskic?

    9 A. I do.

    10 Q. Did you ever see Vlatko Kupreskic at the

    11 Hotel Vitez while you were passing by?

    12 A. Yes. Yes.

    13 Q. Can you give us an estimate of how many times

    14 you think you recall seeing Vlatko Kupreskic at the

    15 Hotel Vitez, a ball park figure?

    16 A. In which period do you mean?

    17 Q. Well, let's take the period between the two

    18 attacks, that is, October '92 to April of '93.

    19 A. Three to five times.

    20 Q. Do you recall the last time you saw him in

    21 front of the Hotel Vitez?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. When was that?

    24 A. On the 15th of April, 1993.

    25 Q. How do you recall that?

  64. 1 A. I remember that day very well. If I may, I

    2 can give you more details?

    3 Q. Go ahead.

    4 A. I went to the headquarters. In front of the

    5 municipality building, across the road to the hotel,

    6 there was a bus full of old people. As I knew one of

    7 them called Franjo, I asked him, "Where are you

    8 going?" And he answered, "I don't know. They just

    9 rounded us up and told us that they were taking us

    10 somewhere, to Croatia."

    11 I went on. I saw that something was in the

    12 offing, so I decided to make a tour. So I headed

    13 towards Han Bila. At a place called Zabilje, near

    14 Sadovace, which is another locality, I saw roughly 15

    15 to 20 HVO soldiers in uniform and under arms setting up

    16 a checkpoint. I returned and I briefed my commander

    17 about these details.

    18 After that, it may have been about 2.00 or

    19 3.00 in the afternoon, I know that it was overcast, I

    20 was passing by the hotel, and in front of the entrance

    21 to the hotel that we saw a photograph of a moment ago,

    22 there was Vlatko Kupreskic with another two, maybe

    23 three men in uniform. They were standing in front of

    24 the hotel.

    25 If I may also add --

  65. 1 Q. Go ahead.

    2 A. That day, the atmosphere was extremely tense

    3 because Kraljevic, his first name is Darko, Darko

    4 Kraljevic, somewhere in the surroundings of Kruscica,

    5 in the mountains, had said the day before that he had

    6 been attacked and then they arrested two Bosniaks at

    7 the checkpoint and took them away somewhere. That's

    8 it.

    9 MR. MOSKOWITZ: May I ask the usher, please,

    10 to show Exhibit P9 at this point?

    11 Q. Now, Exhibit P9 has been placed on the ELMO.

    12 You've already identified this as the front of the

    13 Hotel Vitez. Does this photograph show an area where

    14 you saw Vlatko Kupreskic on the 15th of April?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. Could you point, if you would, where you saw

    17 Vlatko Kupreskic standing?

    18 A. Here (indicating).

    19 Q. For the record, you're pointing at the front

    20 door of the hotel. It's a little difficult to tell.

    21 How close to the front door do you estimate he was when

    22 you saw him?

    23 A. It's not very far. The distance is not 30

    24 metres. In view of the fact that I was going from the

    25 direction of Stari Vitez, so I was going along this

  66. 1 side of the road (indicating).

    2 Q. Were you on foot or in an automobile?

    3 A. In a car.

    4 Q. Were you going fast or slow?

    5 A. Slow.

    6 Q. Did you have a good opportunity to observe

    7 him?

    8 A. I saw him very well. I was alone in the

    9 car. There was nobody to block my vision. May I

    10 add ...

    11 Q. Yes.

    12 A. This area here (indicating), there was

    13 intensified security here. There were soldiers. There

    14 were more soldiers there than otherwise, and I already

    15 said that everything was fenced in with barbed wire.

    16 Q. Did that barbed wire obstruct your view in

    17 any way of the front door of the hotel as you drove

    18 past?

    19 A. No. No, no. It was just there to prevent

    20 entry.

    21 Q. This was sometime in the afternoon of the

    22 15th; is that what you said? Do you know the exact

    23 time? Can you put an exact time on it, or are you

    24 estimating in the afternoon, at any time during the

    25 afternoon?

  67. 1 A. As I have already said, it was about -- it

    2 was after 1400 hours, around -- between 1400 and 1500

    3 hours. It's difficult to pinpoint it.

    4 Q. Now, one detail that I think we left out

    5 earlier when you were looking at the aerial of the

    6 downtown Vitez area was the movement of the

    7 headquarters for the Bosniak TO after the split, and I

    8 want to just clarify that now.

    9 I believe you testified that after the split,

    10 the Bosniak TO moved to a house in another part of

    11 Vitez.

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. At some point, did the headquarters of the TO

    14 move again to another building, after that?

    15 A. It did.

    16 Q. Would that have been the school in Vitez?

    17 A. Yes. Yes, the secondary school. Secondary

    18 school. Next to it was the elementary school.

    19 Q. And that subsequent to that, the headquarters

    20 moved to a building located in Stari Vitez; is that

    21 right?

    22 A. Yes. After the events in October, everything

    23 was moved to Stari Vitez.

    24 Q. If the usher could show Exhibit P7 again,

    25 please?

  68. 1 This is the aerial of Vitez that you've

    2 already identified earlier in your testimony, and I

    3 forgot to ask these questions and I wanted to complete

    4 the record on this. Could you show us where the TO

    5 headquarters was just before the move to the school,

    6 just so we can get back to there?

    7 A. Yeah.

    8 Q. And again, for the record, this is a very

    9 small depiction of some of the buildings in this

    10 village, but you're pointing basically to near the top

    11 of the aerial in the centre, to a small house or

    12 building; is that right?

    13 A. I didn't quite understand.

    14 Q. I'm just trying to make the record as to

    15 where you're pointing on that aerial map. Point again

    16 to the headquarters location after the split, if you

    17 would?

    18 A. After the split. A house here.

    19 Q. And then where do the headquarters move from

    20 there? Show us where the school is.

    21 A. This was one part of the headquarters. The

    22 commander and the staff were there, and in the house

    23 there was a food storage space that we kept.

    24 Q. Could you show us where the TO moved after

    25 the school, and where it was on the day of April 16,

  69. 1 1993?

    2 A. It's not on the picture. It's not on this

    3 aerial.

    4 Q. Could you just show us in what direction it

    5 would be if this aerial happened to show that area?

    6 A. This space here is a field, and then along

    7 this road, about a hundred metres away, there is a

    8 turning to the right, and then a hundred metres along

    9 that road there's an ordinary house.

    10 Q. And is that part of Vitez now referred to as

    11 Stari Vitez?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. The old part of Vitez?

    14 A. It's called Stari Vitez. I don't know why,

    15 but that's what it's called.

    16 Q. Now, where were you on April 16, 1993?

    17 A. In Stari Vitez.

    18 Q. Were you at the headquarters of the TO or

    19 were you in a different building close by?

    20 A. In the headquarters.

    21 Q. And what did you see and hear happening on

    22 that day, if you could just describe for us your

    23 recollections of that day?

    24 A. For the sake of clarity, I would suggest that

    25 I describe an event that occurred the previous day.

  70. 1 Q. Yes.

    2 A. I have already said that the day was murky in

    3 every sense of the word. As soon as the presence of

    4 the HVO troops was intensified, the Bosniaks withdrew

    5 into their homes. We -- or rather, the commander

    6 decided that all of us should stay and spend the night

    7 in that house. There was just one room, there were no

    8 facilities there.

    9 About 23.00 hours in the evening, a person

    10 from the British Battalion came to our headquarters, a

    11 Captain, Captain Matthew, and the surname starts with

    12 "D", I can't remember now. Anyway, Captain Matthew,

    13 and his surname begins with the letter "D". He was an

    14 Irishman, and he had understanding for these parts, and

    15 he wanted peace. At least that is how we saw him, as a

    16 person for peace.

    17 He came and told us that he had come to see

    18 us from the Hotel Vitez. He said that down there,

    19 Blaskic was having a meeting, a gathering of many, many

    20 men in uniform. I, and probably the commander and the

    21 others as well, thought that Mr. Blaskic had come to

    22 calm down the situation, because I said that there had

    23 been problems with Kraljevic and those two Bosniaks

    24 that I mentioned, because we requested that they return

    25 the two men, and they wouldn't and they threatened us.

  71. 1 This meeting, as everyone knows, was actually

    2 on assignments to individuals on the basis of a plan

    3 that they already had when they sent troops for

    4 training at Zabilje.

    5 Why we didn't react, we didn't react because

    6 there had been a hundred similar situations in the

    7 past. Secondly, we never believed that they really

    8 would attack us in the way in which they actually did,

    9 because they had taken everything that could be taken.

    10 We had nothing. They had all the power, the entire

    11 territory, control of the police, everything. They

    12 controlled everything.

    13 May I now go on to the 16th?

    14 Q. Yes.

    15 A. We were in the headquarters in the early

    16 morning. It was maybe 6.00, quarter past. I don't

    17 know what time it was. We were asleep on chairs, and

    18 we heard a strong explosion. We thought that somebody

    19 had fired from a rifle, but then the shells started

    20 falling.

    21 Men started coming from the surrounding

    22 houses, telling us that HVO troops were attacking,

    23 shooting, killing, torching houses. The first to reach

    24 us was Edo Arnaut. He came to the headquarters and

    25 said, "I fled from my house. They are on their way and

  72. 1 they are shooting."

    2 In great haste, we organised ourselves as

    3 much as we could, and put up resistance, and they

    4 didn't enter Stari Vitez. The situation regarding the

    5 other areas, we could not monitor at first. That's

    6 it.

    7 Q. You talked about putting up some resistance.

    8 Approximately how many armed soldiers were there for

    9 the TO in Stari Vitez resisting this attack?

    10 A. About 30 to 40.

    11 Q. Now, during this day, or perhaps it was the

    12 next day, did there come a time that a young HVO either

    13 soldier or a person associated with the HVO came into

    14 custody in Stari Vitez?

    15 A. Yes. He came in himself. He wasn't arrested

    16 in an operation, he just walked in.

    17 Q. How was it possible for someone just to walk

    18 in during this kind of attack?

    19 A. This was only the beginning, and, of course,

    20 there were shortcomings in our defence, unprotected

    21 areas. We focused on particular axes, whereas this

    22 road was not blocked, nor did we pay any attention to

    23 it, thinking that nobody would get -- would pass and

    24 come in from that direction. However, this young man

    25 went from the hotel towards Stari Vitez. He simply

  73. 1 entered and our people arrested him, took him into

    2 custody.

    3 Q. Was he questioned at that time?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. Did you participate in the questioning, or

    6 did you overhear the questioning or part of the

    7 questioning?

    8 A. I didn't take part in the questioning. There

    9 were people -- other people who were responsible for

    10 that, but I went to see who the young man was and how

    11 they were treating him.

    12 Q. And how were they treating him?

    13 A. He was treated in the way a prisoner of war

    14 should be treated, in accordance with the principles

    15 and guidelines of the Geneva Conventions.

    16 Q. Did you overhear any of the questions and

    17 answers, particularly the answers, given by this

    18 person?

    19 A. Yes, yes.

    20 Q. What do you recall hearing?

    21 A. He was asked how come that he should have

    22 decided to come in the direction of Stari Vitez? How

    23 come he was in Stari Vitez at all when the HVO had

    24 launched an offensive along all the axes and against

    25 all the areas inhabited by Bosniaks.

  74. 1 He was not knowledgeable. He said that he

    2 been near the hotel with the troops, that he had said

    3 the he was going to Mosunj, I think he had a sick

    4 sister there, and he had taken the road to Stari

    5 Vitez. Nobody had told him not to go there. In fact,

    6 they were laughing at him a bit.

    7 Q. Do you recall him saying anything else of

    8 interest?

    9 A. Yes. I overheard a couple of other questions

    10 and answers.

    11 Q. Go ahead and tell us what you recall about

    12 that.

    13 A. They asked him where he was from, what his

    14 name was and what he had been doing and where.

    15 Q. What did he say his name was?

    16 A. Zoran Santic.

    17 Q. And what did he say he had been doing?

    18 A. He said that he had spent the last few months

    19 in the Bungalow, the hotel -- the motel known as the

    20 Bungalow, that he had been working there as a

    21 messenger. He was a bit angry at them. He said

    22 that -- that they had exploited him, that he had to

    23 light a fire for them, that he had to clean and brush

    24 their shoes and boots, that they treated him unkindly.

    25 I had the impression that he was very indignant about

  75. 1 them.

    2 They asked him -- they went on to ask him,

    3 "Who is in the Bungalow? Who were the people doing

    4 this?" And he said that it was full of troops,

    5 soldiers, that the units for special purposes were

    6 stationed there, Anto Furundzija was there, that

    7 Kraljevic came often, that Miroslav Bralo, known as

    8 Cicko, could come often, that Cerkez would sometimes

    9 stop by, as well as Vlado Santic, that he would see him

    10 going there often too.

    11 Q. Did he say anything about the events of the

    12 day before the attack?

    13 A. Yes, they asked him, and I was interested in

    14 hearing. He was there.

    15 Q. He was where?

    16 A. In the Bungalow motel, on the 15th, the day

    17 before. He said that -- that there was intensified

    18 activity with arming, equipment, fresh forces were

    19 coming in. There were many of them, a lot of them. He

    20 also said that in the evening, at what time was it,

    21 after 11.00 or around 11.00 p.m., I can't remember

    22 exactly, but in the evening, he said that Santic

    23 arrived there in a car, Santic Vlado, that he had

    24 brought with him a parcel or a crate of alcohol, that

    25 there had been a meeting there which he did not attend,

  76. 1 of course, because he was not planned for it, but he

    2 heard -- overheard a few things.

    3 Then he was asked what it was that he

    4 overheard, and he said, "I heard Vlado Santic saying

    5 that the order was that not a single male from 12 to 70

    6 years of age must remain alive, and everyone else

    7 should be captured and taken somewhere." Where, I

    8 don't know, I can only assume and he didn't say. He

    9 didn't know.

    10 Q. Do you have an estimate of how old this Zoran

    11 Santic was at the time?

    12 A. I know it's been recorded, but maybe 14.

    13 About 14. I'm not sure, but he was young.

    14 Q. Do you know what happened to Mr. Santic,

    15 Zoran?

    16 A. Afterwards, I didn't attend the further

    17 interrogation. He was in the fire brigade centre. And

    18 what happened with him later, I don't know. I don't

    19 know when he was released. I don't know that.

    20 Q. Now, were you -- did you remain in Stari

    21 Vitez for a period of time after the attack?

    22 A. I did.

    23 Q. Were you there on the 18th of April?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. Do you recall anything happening on that

  77. 1 day?

    2 A. I remember and everyone remembers, whoever

    3 was in Stari Vitez.

    4 Q. What happened on that day?

    5 A. In the afternoon there was a powerful

    6 explosion, due to which the house we were in shook, as

    7 did not the whole of Stari Vitez, I would say the whole

    8 of Vitez.

    9 Q. At some point did you go out and survey the

    10 damage?

    11 A. Not immediately, but I did later.

    12 MR. MOSKOWITZ: May I ask the usher to

    13 display the three photographs?

    14 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 63.

    15 MR. MOSKOWITZ: I think Prosecution Exhibit

    16 63, we have only a Xerox of the original photograph, if

    17 I'm not mistaken, and we will replace that with true

    18 photographs.

    19 Q. Could you look at Prosecution Exhibit 63 and

    20 tell us what that depicts?

    21 A. Yes. This is the place in Stari Vitez where

    22 a tank blew up. It was full of explosives.

    23 Q. The translation I got was "tank". Are you

    24 referring to a military tank or some sort of a truck?

    25 Do you not understand my question?

  78. 1 What was your understanding that blew up on

    2 the 18th in Vitez?

    3 A. On the 18th. It was a tank truck for fuel,

    4 for petrol.

    5 Q. And does Exhibit 63 show what you saw in

    6 Stari Vitez following that explosion?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Could we have the next

    9 photograph, please?

    10 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 64.


    12 Q. And could you tell us what Exhibit 64 shows?

    13 A. This is the day when UNPROFOR -- may I?

    14 Q. Yes, please.

    15 A. When the tank truck exploded in this part,

    16 this house, which used to be here, simply -- that was a

    17 big house, it had a first floor, and it simply

    18 disappeared. There was a basement in the house, then

    19 there was a floor, and because of the shelling and the

    20 snipers which shot from all sides, the people went into

    21 the basement of the house; and when this tank truck

    22 here (indicating) blew up, the house was blown away,

    23 and this concrete floor dropped onto the people. There

    24 were seven or eight people inside the house in the

    25 basement, and this concrete slab fell on top of them.

  79. 1 At first, we could hear them begging for

    2 help, asking for air. In some places, you could see a

    3 hand sticking out, but this did not go on for long.

    4 And then the people died because no one was able to

    5 remove this concrete slab.

    6 Then UNPROFOR arrived, and this shows

    7 UNPROFOR removing the concrete and pulling out the

    8 people, and I was standing over there on the other

    9 side.

    10 Q. Did they pull out the people alive or dead;

    11 do you know?

    12 A. Dead.

    13 Q. What is your understanding of how this truck

    14 bomb was accomplished? Was there anyone in the truck,

    15 for example, when it went off; and if so, do you know

    16 who?

    17 A. According to data we received later on, we

    18 learned that the tank truck had come from the direction

    19 of the Catholic church and that it had passed through

    20 Vitez, through Stari Vitez. The driver was a Bosniak,

    21 whom I don't know personally, but we know that he was a

    22 refugee, a refugee from somewhere in Krajina. I don't

    23 know exactly where. He had been driven away by the

    24 Serbs. They used various means, such as opium, to drug

    25 him, leaving him with barely enough strength to hold

  80. 1 the wheel. His hands were tied to the wheel. We

    2 presume that the gas had been pressed down with

    3 something to accelerate, and since we didn't pay any

    4 attention to that road, the tank truck passed through,

    5 and it was only after it blew up that we closed off

    6 that road.

    7 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Next photograph, please.

    8 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 65.


    10 Q. And again, Exhibit 65, if you could quickly

    11 just identify that for us, please?

    12 A. Again, this is in Stari Vitez. Some

    13 IFOR units and some local people are looking for

    14 corpses and clearing up the site.

    15 Q. How long did you stay in Vitez, and could you

    16 just quickly tell us how you left it?

    17 A. I remained in Stari Vitez 25 days, I think.

    18 Q. Why didn't you leave earlier? Why couldn't

    19 you leave earlier?

    20 A. I think that's clear. I have already said

    21 that we were surrounded on all sides, encircled. There

    22 was HVO everywhere. They were firing at us with rocket

    23 launchers, machine guns, mortars, all kinds of weapons,

    24 and we couldn't move around.

    25 Q. How did you finally get out after 25 days, I

  81. 1 think you said? How did you finally manage to get out

    2 of Vitez?

    3 A. I left Vitez in an UNPROFOR personnel

    4 carrier.

    5 Q. While you were in Vitez and before you left,

    6 did you participate or have any knowledge of the burial

    7 that occurred on April 28th?

    8 A. Yes, I was there in Stari Vitez that day. I

    9 was still in Vitez.

    10 Q. What was your role in the burial, if any?

    11 A. I didn't have any role.

    12 Q. Do you know who was being buried on that day

    13 in Stari Vitez, not by name but from where they were

    14 coming from?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. Where were these bodies coming from?

    17 A. They were -- you mean where they used to

    18 live?

    19 Q. That's right, where they used to live.

    20 A. Where they were killed?

    21 Q. That's right, where they were killed.

    22 A. Most of these people were from Ahmici.

    23 MR. MOSKOWITZ: I just have two more

    24 photographs. One is already an exhibit, P --

    25 A. Just a moment. There were people from

  82. 1 Ahmici, but there were also people from the town, the

    2 town, the centre of Vitez, because there were quite a

    3 lot of murders in the buildings, in the flats or

    4 apartments in the centre of Vitez.

    5 Q. You yourself didn't actually witness the

    6 burial, did you, on April 28th?

    7 A. You mean was I there? Was I present?

    8 Q. On the field where the burial took place,

    9 yes, were you present there?

    10 A. No, I wasn't, no.

    11 Q. Was that your choice, not to be there?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Can the usher now show P24,

    14 please?

    15 Q. Now, Exhibit P24 has been placed on the

    16 machine. Is that a picture of something that you can

    17 recognise and, if so, can you tell us what it is?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. What is it?

    20 A. These are members of the HVO with this

    21 vehicle, and this gun with four barrels on the vehicle,

    22 these are the barrels of an anti-aircraft gun, an

    23 anti-aircraft gun, I mean 20-millimetres calibre, is

    24 loaded with this equipment, and they went around with

    25 it. They didn't conceal it in any way. They always

  83. 1 used it to demonstrate their strength like this.

    2 Q. When you say "they went around with it, they

    3 didn't conceal it," who is the "they" you're talking

    4 about?

    5 A. They, the HVO.

    6 Q. So just to be clear, did you yourself see

    7 weapons like that in and around the Vitez area during

    8 this time period that we've been talking about?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. Did you ever see an anti-aircraft weapon

    11 either like that or different than what is depicted in

    12 this picture in and around the Ivo Papic house?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. Was it the same as this picture or was it

    15 different, and if it's different, how?

    16 A. This weapon, I saw this weapon once when

    17 Darko Kraljevic surrounded and occupied the Ministry of

    18 the Interior with his unit. The vehicle was later

    19 parked in front of the municipality building. Nothing

    20 was concealed. They showed it quite openly. This

    21 truck was yellow, the driver -- I don't know his name,

    22 but I know the driver by site, he's from Mosunj, and he

    23 would often stay at the cafe where I stayed. It was

    24 called Babica Kafana.

    25 They had a tall TAM, blue in colour, which

  84. 1 used to be a PAM, Browning 20.7 millimetres -- 12.7

    2 millimetres, sorry, or they would have an anti-aircraft

    3 gun like this but with only three barrels, and the

    4 driver of the TAM was called Vrebac, was his second

    5 name, and they called him Cicak. I don't know what his

    6 real name was.

    7 They also had a white vehicle on which there

    8 were five barrels, a rocket launcher -- multiple rocket

    9 launchers, 22, I think, and the driver of that truck

    10 was called Nenad Palavra.

    11 Q. Did you ever see any of these weapons that

    12 you've just described around the Ivo/Dragan Papic

    13 house?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. Which one or ones did you see around his

    16 house?

    17 A. I saw the blue TAM, the blue one with the

    18 PAM. It used to be a PAM. Sometimes there was a

    19 PAM on it and sometimes it was simply covered over with

    20 a canvas.

    21 Q. This TAM, was it smaller than what is

    22 depicted in this picture, the same, or larger?

    23 A. It was a little smaller.

    24 Q. Can you recall where, in relation to the

    25 Papic house, did you see this anti-aircraft weapon?

  85. 1 Was it in the front yard, was it in the back yard, or

    2 on the side of the house, or somewhere else?

    3 A. When I was on my way to Ahmici, I saw this

    4 TAM vehicle with an anti-aircraft machine gun on it,

    5 and it was immediately after the first conflict. It

    6 was positioned on the country lane, and the

    7 anti-aircraft machine gun was pointed toward Ahmici;

    8 and on one occasion, I saw this TAM covered over with

    9 a canvas, and they were unloading something from it. I

    10 know they were crates, military crates, used in the

    11 military for transporting ammunitions or other

    12 equipment.

    13 Q. Staying with this TAM for a moment, you

    14 mentioned a country lane where you saw this TAM. Where

    15 is this country lane in relation to the Papic house?

    16 A. I can show you on the picture.

    17 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Can we have Exhibit 30,

    18 please?

    19 Q. Exhibit 30, is this the picture you were

    20 referring to that you wanted to see?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. This is a photograph that you've previously

    23 identified showing the house of Ivo and Dragan Papic;

    24 is that right?

    25 A. Yes.

  86. 1 Q. Show us, if you can, on that picture where

    2 you saw that anti-aircraft weapon that you've described

    3 already?

    4 A. (Indicates)

    5 Q. Could you do that again, I'm sorry?

    6 A. (Indicates)

    7 Q. That would be what looks like a driveway

    8 alongside the Papic house; is that correct?

    9 A. Yes, this is the road leading toward the

    10 house.

    11 MR. MOSKOWITZ: I have one more photograph.

    12 (Lights go off)

    13 Maybe I don't.

    14 (Lights back on)

    15 I have one last photograph to show.

    16 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 66.


    18 Q. Can you identify that, please, Exhibit 66?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. What does that show?

    21 A. This is the religious building of the

    22 Bosniaks.

    23 (Lights turning on and off)

    24 Q. Can you see --

    25 A. The religious building of the Bosniaks in

  87. 1 Ahmici, the mosque near the school. This is the mosque

    2 built by the late Hazim Hadzi, and this was done by

    3 extremists, the extreme HVO.

    4 Q. You see the writing on the main part of the

    5 building?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. To the left of the window?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. Could you tell us what that says, please?

    10 A. It's the name of their operation on the 16th

    11 of April when they started out. It was called "48

    12 Hours of Ashes."

    13 Q. Is that what that says on the mosque,

    14 "Disco" ...

    15 A. It says "Balija," which is a derogatory name

    16 for the Muslims, it says "God," it says "48 Hours of

    17 Ashes," it says "Disco," and they made a disco which

    18 opened its doors on the 16th of April, 1993.

    19 Q. And the "48 Hours of Ashes" is a term you

    20 have come to associate with the attack on April 16,

    21 1993?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 MR. MOSKOWITZ: For the information of the

    24 Court, this picture was taken in, I believe, 1996, and

    25 we have no information as to who put those words on the

  88. 1 mosque, but the phrase "48 Hours of Ashes" is the

    2 phrase that has been associated with this attack.

    3 Q. Now, one last thing we need to do. You've

    4 spoken at length about --

    5 A. Just a moment, please. This must not remain

    6 unexplained, when you say that there is no proof who

    7 has done this.

    8 Q. Go ahead and explain.

    9 A. One thing is true, that this has not been

    10 written by the Bosniaks because at that time, they were

    11 not allowed to enter the village, so this was written

    12 by the Croats. There was graffiti like this on other

    13 houses too all over Ahmici. This year the Bosniaks

    14 returned and they built a large number of houses.

    15 Q. I apologise for skipping over that so

    16 quickly. After the attack in April of 1993, were there

    17 any, to your knowledge, any Bosniaks left in Ahmici?

    18 A. Not in Ahmici.

    19 Q. Who were the only people left in Ahmici after

    20 the attack in 1993, to the best of your knowledge? Not

    21 by name but by religious and ethnic association.

    22 A. As far as I know, and as everybody knows,

    23 everybody knows that only the Croats remained there.

    24 Q. Thank you. Now, you've spoken about Dragan

    25 Papic at length. Could you look around this courtroom

  89. 1 and see if you can identify anyone who is or looks like

    2 Dragan Papic? Can you see him in this courtroom?

    3 A. Yes, I can see him.

    4 Q. And can you tell us where he is?

    5 A. In the last row, first there's Santic and

    6 then Papic.

    7 Q. Do you distinguish between the two people,

    8 Santic and Papic, just by description of their face?

    9 Does one have facial hair and the other not, and if so,

    10 which one is which?

    11 A. We cooperated and we know one another from

    12 these contacts, and what do I have to say? Papic has a

    13 small beard, and Santic has no beard.

    14 Q. And may the record reflect that he has

    15 identified Santic and Papic.

    16 You've also mentioned in your testimony Zoran

    17 Kupreskic. Do you see him in the Court room today?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. Could you describe where he is sitting now?

    20 A. The first row, the first on the right.

    21 Q. And may the record reflect that he has

    22 identified Zoran Papic, although maybe we should be a

    23 little more specific -- sorry, Zoran Kupreskic. The

    24 person you're identifying as Zoran Kupreskic, does he

    25 have a moustache only, or does he have a moustache and

  90. 1 a beard?

    2 A. He has a moustache and a beard.

    3 Q. If the record can reflect that he has

    4 identified Zoran Kupreskic.

    5 Finally, you've mentioned Vlatko Kupreskic.

    6 Do you see him in the Court room today?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. Where is he sitting and how is he dressed?

    9 A. He is the third in the first row from the

    10 left, and the third from the right or the second from

    11 the left. He's wearing a tie, a white shirt, he is

    12 clean shaven, no moustache, no beard.

    13 MR. MOSKOWITZ: May the record reflect that

    14 he has identified Vlatko Kupreskic.

    15 At this point we would pass the witness.

    16 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Mr. Moskowitz.

    17 Before we break for coffee, may I ask Mr. Pavkovic if

    18 he has AN idea how many legal counsel would like to

    19 cross-examine the witness.

    20 MR. PAVKOVIC: Your Honours, I believe that

    21 it will take at least one hour for the

    22 cross-examination, and the attorneys are attorney Petar

    23 Puliselic, attorney Ranko Radovic, attorney Borislav

    24 Krajina and myself.

    25 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. We break now for

  91. 1 coffee and we come back in 30 minutes.

    2 --- Recess taken at 3.35 p.m.

    3 --- On resuming at 4.08 p.m.


    5 MR. MOSKOWITZ: If I may, Your Honours, I

    6 once again forgot to offer the exhibits officially into

    7 evidence. I would like to be able to do that now.

    8 I was also notified during the break from one

    9 of the interpreters that she felt there had been a

    10 misinterpretation on a question. I can clear that up

    11 now or do that on redirect, whichever you think is

    12 preferable.

    13 JUDGE CASSESE: Maybe later on, yes.

    14 MR. MOSKOWITZ: While we're waiting for the

    15 witness, I could offer then, at this moment, Exhibits

    16 62, 63, 64, 65 and 66. Sixty-two we're offering under

    17 seal. Those are the photographs.

    18 (The witness entered court)

    19 JUDGE CASSESE: No objection from the

    20 Defence? So they're admitted into evidence. Yes

    21 Mr. Pavkovic.

    22 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, Defence counsel

    23 have no objections.

    24 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. So we may start

    25 with the cross-examination. Mr. Puliselic

  92. Cross-examined by Mr. Puliselic:

    2 MR. PULISELIC: Your Honours, I have two or

    3 three brief questions whereby we might reveal the

    4 identity of the witness, so could I ask for a closed

    5 session for those questions?

    6 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Shall we now go

    7 into closed session?

    8 (Closed session).

    9 (redacted)

    10 (redacted)

    11 (redacted)

    12 (redacted)

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    21 (redacted)

    22 (Open session)

    23 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session.

    24 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, we are in open session.


  95. 1 Q. Are you aware of the date when the

    2 Territorial Defence developed into the army of

    3 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. Could you tell us that date?

    6 A. It depended on the area in

    7 Bosnia-Herzegovina. It depended on the progress made

    8 with the formation of the army in Bosnia-Herzegovina,

    9 but in any event, in Vitez, on the 1st of December,

    10 1992.

    11 Q. Are there some generalised dates, a date that

    12 is celebrated as the date when the army of

    13 Bosnia-Herzegovina was founded?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. Can you tell us when that is?

    16 A. It is the 15th of April.

    17 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us how many

    18 statements you have made so far in connection with the

    19 events linked to Ahmici, and whom you made those

    20 statements to?

    21 A. I have not made many statements. If you're

    22 saying something, you must be sure of what you're

    23 saying, as I wasn't in Ahmici on that day. I avoided

    24 entering into any polemics, or analysis or debate with

    25 people who were victims of that act.

  96. 1 Q. I apologise. I don't think you understood

    2 me. My question was how many statements you made to

    3 official bodies who were investigating those events?

    4 A. I understood you, I just wanted to say this

    5 by way of introduction.

    6 Officially only statements linked to the

    7 Tribunal, and that was on a couple of occasions.

    8 Q. A couple of occasions. The Defence have your

    9 statement from 1998, to be more precise, from the 9th

    10 of March, 1998, which you made to the investigator of

    11 the International Tribunal. Can you tell me whether

    12 six years after the event you really do recall all the

    13 details that you have described?

    14 A. Let me be quite precise. Everything they

    15 asked me here today I was able to answer, and I did.

    16 The things that I couldn't remember and that I didn't

    17 know, I didn't answer those questions, nor can I answer

    18 those questions.

    19 Q. Will you tell me, please, where you were when

    20 you heard that a checkpoint had been set up in Ahmici?

    21 A. Again, you have to be more precise.

    22 Q. The checkpoint that you said had been

    23 established later, after the first conflict, near Ivo

    24 Papic's house.

    25 A. I must ask you to be precise, because there

  97. 1 were checkpoints very frequently.

    2 Q. But the checkpoint you spoke about today.

    3 A. Very well then, yes. That's okay then.

    4 Where was I was the question. I was in Stari Vitez.

    5 Q. At your workplace? Where were you in Stari

    6 Vitez?

    7 A. In Stari Vitez in the headquarters, the

    8 defence headquarters.

    9 Q. And what happened then? Who informed you of

    10 this?

    11 A. The information? The information came from

    12 people who were coming from the direction of Busovaca

    13 and Zenica, or who were trying to pass either, or from

    14 people who were above that spot on a slope, at a height

    15 so they can see everything that is happening down

    16 there. And I also said that I had been there.

    17 Q. Could you explain, in slightly more detail,

    18 what this checkpoint looked out at? What was it? What

    19 was there? What kinds of obstacles? Were there any

    20 mines, landmines? What was around this checkpoint?

    21 A. Yes. There is a turning to the left, going

    22 to Ahmici.

    23 Q. From which direction?

    24 A. When you're coming from Vitez, because I

    25 mostly came from the direction of Vitez. And before

  98. 1 turning for Ahmici there is a double bend, and as soon

    2 as you pass the bend you see the road turning left to

    3 Ahmici, and a little further forward there is a

    4 widening of the road for the bus to stop, and that was

    5 where the checkpoint was. These were the usual type of

    6 checkpoints. They all resembled one another in those

    7 days.

    8 They would use those metal cross-bars that

    9 were positioned across the roads so that if a vehicle

    10 were to pass, it could pass only if it went zigzag

    11 around those obstacles.

    12 So right of the checkpoint there was a -- I

    13 wouldn't call it a bunker, but an ordinary shelter made

    14 with sandbags. And there was, as I have already said,

    15 or if I didn't I'm saying it now, there was a machine

    16 gun, a light machine gun, an M-72 there. Then there

    17 was the sign with the word "stop" on it, and to the

    18 left and the right there were soldiers.

    19 And the road going to Ahmici, there were

    20 obstacles across the road with building blocks. So

    21 probably when they passed in they would just move a

    22 building block and pass and then put the block back in

    23 place.

    24 Q. How many soldiers were there, roughly, and

    25 did you recognise any of them?

  99. 1 A. Let me see. There were three there, and

    2 three over there, and two over here. About eight. I

    3 knew Vinko Vidovic, Sacko Vidovic, I don't know his

    4 proper first name. He was young when I'd left. I

    5 didn't recognise the others.

    6 Q. Very well. Thank you. In view of the fact

    7 that so much time has elapsed since that event, are you

    8 quite certain that this event linked to this roadblock

    9 was after the first conflict or perhaps was it before

    10 the first conflict? I'm referring to the conflict of

    11 the 20th of October. Are you quite sure this occurred

    12 after this conflict?

    13 A. After, though there were barricades, as I

    14 said, even before. Then they would be removed, and

    15 after this one there was another one and it was

    16 removed, but this is the one that is important today.

    17 Q. That is precisely why I'm asking you whether

    18 you're quite sure whether this roadblock was before or

    19 after the conflict.

    20 A. Yes, I see.

    21 Q. Can you tell me how Dragan Papic was dressed

    22 when you saw him? I'm asking you this because in this

    23 part of your testimony there's a difference between

    24 what you said today and what you told the

    25 investigators. You are now claiming that he had a

  100. 1 black jacket and a camouflage vest, whereas earlier on

    2 you never mentioned this black jacket. So I'm

    3 wondering where the addition came from. Can you

    4 explain that? Earlier on you said he was wearing a

    5 camouflage uniform, and that on top of that he had a

    6 blue jacket. That is what you told the investigator.

    7 So how come there's a difference now?

    8 A. I don't see that that's a problem. What is

    9 important is that he was in uniform. And when they

    10 asked me, they didn't insist on me saying anything in

    11 particular. I just said he was in uniform. After

    12 that, I gave more thought to the whole situation, so

    13 that these details came back to me, and what I said I

    14 abide by it.

    15 Q. You said that Dragan Papic was the commander,

    16 in your assessment, of the checkpoint at that time near

    17 his house?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. Are you quite sure of that or is it just an

    20 assumption of yours?

    21 A. Let us start from my assumptions and then the

    22 factual evidence. My assumptions were first those when

    23 I came, and if soldiers stopped me and detained me

    24 until he comes, and then he says that I can't pass but

    25 that I have to go back, then that is my assumption,

  101. 1 that he's the commander.

    2 And secondly, I think I said that I went with

    3 Santic, and that Nenad Santic told me, in so many

    4 words, that we're going to see the commanders in the

    5 field. He said that we would be going to visit them in

    6 their homes, and he was leading me. I just followed

    7 him. So this is the evidence which I am presenting.

    8 Q. Are you aware that it was the Muslims who,

    9 long before the first conflict that occurred on the

    10 20th of October, 1992, had put up a roadblock? Are you

    11 aware of that when this happened?

    12 A. I apologise. Are talking about Muslims or

    13 Bosniaks?

    14 Q. Whichever you prefer.

    15 A. Bosniaks, as we are a nation. A barricade

    16 that was put up before the 20th?

    17 Q. Yes, much before. Maybe a whole month

    18 before.

    19 A. In the same spot. Yes, there was. Yes.

    20 Q. Why was it erected on the part of the

    21 Bosniaks and when was this?

    22 A. I don't know exactly, but it did exist. That

    23 is why I said that there were many barricades, and this

    24 was the only one which the citizens, the people, the

    25 people of Ahmici, the civilians, there was not a single

  102. 1 rifle, they just stopped the traffic there, blocked the

    2 traffic.

    3 The traffic was blocked because at the

    4 checkpoint in Dubravica, they were turning back all the

    5 Bosniaks. They wouldn't let anyone pass to Vitez or to

    6 the factory. They confiscated everything that they

    7 could take away. So this was a kind of revolt that had

    8 prompted it, but this barricade didn't stand there for

    9 more than two hours. We dealt with it immediately,

    10 because maybe 50 metres ahead the Croats placed their

    11 own barricade.

    12 Q. In connection with that barricade, in the

    13 same spot that you referred to a moment ago, saying

    14 that the HVO had put up the road block, did Cerkez and

    15 other persons participate in those negotiations,

    16 because the Defence has certain information to that

    17 effect, that this had to do with the removal of the

    18 barricade erected by the Bosniaks. A meeting was held

    19 and there were negotiations.

    20 A. They did take place then as well, because the

    21 Croats put up another one, but the difference was that

    22 the Croats came out with rifles and they threatened

    23 with an armed conflict. So we went there again, only

    24 this time there was Marijan Lucic, at the time he was

    25 in command of the police, and again there was Santic,

  103. 1 and it was quickly resolved and the roadblock was

    2 removed, so there were no problems.

    3 Q. So you were present?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. Do you know the members of the army of Bosnia

    6 and Herzegovina called Sadik and Sujo Ahmic, Nisvet and

    7 Fikret Ahmic, and person by the surname of Hrustic?

    8 A. Could you please repeat it slowly?

    9 Q. I will repeat it. Sadik and Sujo Ahmic?

    10 A. Sadik? No. Maybe another name, whom I

    11 presume --

    12 Q. Sujo?

    13 A. Sujo, yes.

    14 Q. Muso and Fikret Ahmic?

    15 A. No.

    16 Q. A person with the surname of Hrustic?

    17 A. Well, there were many people surnamed

    18 Hrustic.

    19 Q. But was there a Hrustic at the barricade on

    20 that occasion?

    21 A. No, no.

    22 Q. Are you aware that the members of the B and H

    23 army manning the barricade shot at a person who passed

    24 around the barricade in a car, and that they would stop

    25 the cargo vehicles and confiscate the food that was

  104. 1 being transported in these vehicles? Were there any

    2 complaints, and do you know anything about this?

    3 A. First of all, sir, there was no army of

    4 Bosnia and Herzegovina. There were no members of the

    5 army of Bosnia and Herzegovina anywhere at that time in

    6 that area. No one came out with a rifle, no one

    7 stopped a single truck, especially if it was

    8 transporting food.

    9 Q. Where exactly was the light machine gun you

    10 referred to? Was it on the road near the roadblock you

    11 talked about, or was it positioned by the side of the

    12 road?

    13 A. It was by the side of the road to the right

    14 where there is a widening for a bus stop, and it was

    15 facing Ahmici, which is very important. It was pointed

    16 toward Ahmici.

    17 Q. In your statement today, you say that it was

    18 taken away somewhere into the house or around the Papic

    19 house. You didn't mention this in the previous

    20 statement that you made to the investigator.

    21 A. Perhaps they didn't ask me about that. I

    22 only respond to questions I'm asked.

    23 Q. There is another discrepancy in what you

    24 say. You told the investigator that on one occasion

    25 between the two conflicts, behind the house or in the

  105. 1 back yard of the Papic house, you saw a truck with an

    2 anti-aircraft gun while now you say that this was a TAM

    3 vehicle with a light machine gun and that it was in the

    4 driveway or, rather, on the road leading into the yard.

    5 A. Well, it's maybe a matter of the way the

    6 question is put and the translation, but what I said

    7 today is the same.

    8 Q. Could you repeat, please, because I have

    9 forgotten what you said about the number of barrels in

    10 that weapon. Do you remember?

    11 A. I believe that you've forgotten it, but if I

    12 haven't forgotten it when it was six years ago, I'm

    13 afraid I've forgotten what I said an hour ago.

    14 Q. That's very strange. Can you say how many

    15 barrels there were?

    16 A. You mean what I said here today? It was a

    17 semi-automatic machine gun. Many people mix this up

    18 with a PAT, and I said it was PAM 12.7 millimetres. I

    19 think I've said everything now.

    20 Q. Can you say, since you passed by frequently,

    21 whether you saw Dragan Papic firing from any kind of

    22 weapon?

    23 A. Well, first of all, I didn't pass by daily.

    24 Q. You passed by often.

    25 A. Yes, often, but not every day. And secondly,

  106. 1 you are talking a lot about these weapons. I said that

    2 they would put away one weapon and put up another

    3 weapon, so other people saw the PAT. I didn't see the

    4 PAT, I saw the PAM. The PAT is an anti-aircraft gun

    5 and the PAM is a light machine gun, and I saw the light

    6 machine gun.

    7 JUDGE CASSESE: May I ask the witness, could

    8 you please answer the question put to you by Defence

    9 counsel, whether you saw Dragan Papic firing from any

    10 kind of weapon.

    11 A. No, I didn't.


    13 Q. You said that ten days before the first

    14 conflict, together with Pero Skopljak and other people,

    15 you held talks with several people to negotiate peace

    16 and that you went to Dragan Papic's house. What did

    17 Dragan Papic say to you on that occasion?

    18 A. That statement is not well-founded. I didn't

    19 say that today.

    20 Q. I beg your pardon?

    21 A. I didn't say that today.

    22 Q. I'm simply asking you what Dragan Papic told

    23 you when you were in the house when you were going

    24 around with all these people to talk about peace.

    25 A. You mentioned Pero Skopljak.

  107. 1 Q. As far as I was able to hear, you were

    2 accompanied by Skopljak.

    3 A. There were several visits, but the one made

    4 with Nenad Santic was the one connected with the

    5 resolving of the situation. We sat down, we had a

    6 normal conversation. He promised -- we were told that

    7 there would be no problems, that the people could come

    8 back and everything would be all right.

    9 Q. Thank you. Were any members of the household

    10 present on that occasion, from the family?

    11 A. Ivo.

    12 Q. You mean the father?

    13 A. Yes. Ivo Papic, yes.

    14 Q. In your statement to the investigator, you

    15 said that a young HVO soldier happened to go into Stari

    16 Vitez by accident and that he was taken prisoner by the

    17 army of Bosnia and Herzegovina and questioned, and we

    18 mentioned this today.

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. Can you tell us the names of the persons who

    21 questioned him?

    22 A. I can, but in a closed session, in a closed

    23 session.

    24 JUDGE CASSESE: We will go into a closed

    25 session.

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    20 (Open session)

    21 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. So we go back

    22 into open session.


    24 Q. Witness B, do you know what happened to this

    25 young man, this --

  111. 1 A. No, no.

    2 Q. Because the Defence has information that this

    3 young man's name is actually Zoran Vidovic, that he was

    4 not a soldier of the HVO, and that he was 16 years old,

    5 and that after this interrogation, he was never seen

    6 again, and also that his body was never found. Do you

    7 know anything about this? Have you heard anything

    8 about this event? Did you hear about it later?

    9 A. No, no. Zoran Santic was because, as I have

    10 already said, I left in a personnel carrier and this

    11 went on for another year, but we had no further contact

    12 with that area.

    13 Q. Do you know, in this period in October 1992

    14 until the 16th of April, 1993, on how many occasions

    15 roadblocks were erected by the Bosniaks on that part of

    16 the road?

    17 A. From when?

    18 Q. From the period we discussed today, before

    19 the 20th until the conflict on the 16th of April, 1993,

    20 so it's a precise period.

    21 A. Well, it's very hard to make estimates

    22 because things are much more profound.

    23 Q. Could you be more precise?

    24 A. The permanent checkpoints were manned by the

    25 HVO. We tried, in all kinds of ways with the

  112. 1 commanders of the HVO, to make sure that there were

    2 Bosniaks at the roadblocks as well, that there would be

    3 two Croats and two Bosniaks at each checkpoint, but

    4 this never actually happened. The first time we tried,

    5 it was in Dubravica. There was a Croatian flag at the

    6 checkpoint. Our men put up our flag with the lilies,

    7 Cerkez came, and they pulled down the Bosniak flag.

    8 There was never a Bosniak checkpoint in the direction

    9 of Busovaca.

    10 From Dubravica to Travnik, at one time there

    11 was a checkpoint near Grbavica, the village of

    12 Grbavica, for a time. It didn't last long. And there

    13 was a Croatian checkpoint, a second one, a third one,

    14 five or six checkpoints toward Novi Travnik. The only

    15 checkpoint we set up was at Grbavica, but it only

    16 lasted for 15 days or less. There was a lot of

    17 pressure.

    18 Q. Very well. Who set up the barricade on the

    19 20th of October, 1992? At whose orders was the

    20 roadblock set up?

    21 A. The barricade?

    22 Q. Yes, on the 20th of October, 1992.

    23 A. Where do you mean?

    24 Q. Well, near the cemetery, the Catholic

    25 cemetery at Ahmici, on the road.

  113. 1 A. This was not a proper barricade. It was only

    2 an ordinary obstacle, the aim of which was to stop or

    3 slow down the movement of the Croatian army from

    4 Kresevo, Kiseljak, Busovaca, around two and a half

    5 thousand of them armed to the teeth with guns, bombs,

    6 grenades, who had set out to Novi Travnik to kill

    7 Bosniaks.

    8 JUDGE CASSESE: May I ask the witness to

    9 again answer the question? The question was: Who gave

    10 orders to set up the roadblock, barricade, whatever, on

    11 the 20th or 19th of October, 1992? Could you please

    12 answer this question?

    13 A. In Vitez, in the school, there was a defence

    14 headquarters, the commander was Sefkija Dzidic, and

    15 other people who took part in the process of

    16 decision-making.


    18 Q. Do you know how many villages in the Lasva

    19 River Valley were attacked by the army of

    20 Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1992? Serbian villages or

    21 Croatian, it doesn't matter.

    22 A. Let me repeat. There was no army there, and

    23 if there is no army, what can you use to attack?

    24 Q. Well, you told us when the army of Bosnia and

    25 Herzegovina was set up.

  114. 1 A. The army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, in the

    2 area of Vitez, was established on the 1st of December

    3 when a brigade was established -- or it may have been

    4 the 12th of December. In any case, it was December

    5 1992.

    6 Q. Was there a plan of the army of Bosnia and

    7 Herzegovina to cut off the Vitez-Busovaca road at

    8 Ahmici? Can you tell us briefly whether you know of

    9 this, "Yes" or "No"?

    10 A. No.

    11 Q. Do you know anything about a plan which the

    12 same army had to take over the explosives factory in

    13 Vitez? Do you know anything about this or not?

    14 A. I know everything. There was never a plan.

    15 Q. Sefer Halilovic, a general of the army, in

    16 his book "Cunning Strategy," says there was a plan.

    17 Have you heard about this book?

    18 A. Yes. I haven't read it. Sefer Halilovic was

    19 in Sarajevo, and he may have thought later that there

    20 was something, I don't know what he thought, but I know

    21 that he did not know what was going on on the territory

    22 of the Vitez Municipality.

    23 Q. Do you know that some units of the army of

    24 Bosnia and Herzegovina had black uniforms? Do you know

    25 of the Black Swans unit?

  115. 1 A. I think that this question has nothing to do

    2 with this.

    3 Q. Well, I'm asking you this because black

    4 uniforms are mentioned so often, so was there a unit of

    5 this kind and did it have black uniforms?

    6 A. I would like to concentrate on the Vitez

    7 area.

    8 Q. But I'm asking you this question. Can you

    9 tell me "Yes" or "No"?

    10 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, please say "Yes" or

    11 "No." If you say you don't know, you can say "I don't

    12 know," but otherwise, you should answer.

    13 A. Yes, I know. The Black Swans unit existed as

    14 a unit of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, but the

    15 name "Black Swans" did not mean that they were wearing

    16 black uniforms. They only had a patch on their sleeve

    17 showing a black swan because their first commander was

    18 nicknamed "Swan" and the unit was named the Black Swans

    19 after him, and the uniform was a camouflage uniform

    20 like the other B and H uniforms. It was never a black

    21 uniform.


    23 Q. Do you know anything about a cooperation of

    24 the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the HOS and

    25 their cooperation over a certain time period? Do you

  116. 1 know when this existed?

    2 A. Can you be more specific? Can you tell me

    3 the time and the place you are referring to because I

    4 want to answer questions about Vitez and Ahmici,

    5 because if we start talking about Croatia or

    6 Herzegovina --

    7 Q. I'm asking you about Bosnia and Herzegovina.

    8 A. Well, Bosnia and Herzegovina is a State. I

    9 can't say what was happening in Herzegovina. I'm

    10 talking about Vitez.

    11 Q. Very well. Simply say "I don't know."

    12 A. About the cooperation, all I know is that at

    13 the beginning, the HOS had some ideas which overlapped

    14 with the standpoints of the army until Kraljevic was

    15 murdered in Herzegovina and the 11 or 12 others who

    16 were killed by the HVO.

    17 Q. Thank you. Do you know about the event in

    18 the Mahala in Stari Vitez when a shell was fired at the

    19 part of the town inhabited by the Croats? Do you know

    20 how many children were killed on that occasion who were

    21 playing in front of their houses?

    22 A. I think that at this court, if I have taken

    23 an oath to tell the truth, I would like your questions

    24 to be well-grounded.

    25 Q. Do you know anything about this event, "Yes"

  117. 1 or "No"?

    2 A. I don't want to answer this question because

    3 you say this shell was fired from Stari Vitez.

    4 JUDGE CASSESE: As I say, could you please

    5 say "Yes" or "No"? If you don't know, we will move on

    6 to another question.

    7 A. I will, Your Honours. I'm trying to say that

    8 this shell, if it fell, it couldn't have been fired

    9 from Stari Vitez because Stari Vitez did not have that

    10 calibre.


    12 Q. But the fact is that a shell did hit the

    13 Croatian part of Vitez and eight children playing in

    14 front of their houses were killed, so surely this was

    15 not fired by an HVO unit.

    16 A. This was later when the war was in full

    17 swing. Where the shell came from, I don't know.

    18 Q. Did members of the Vitez TO or, rather, of

    19 the military police, in the course of 1992, enter

    20 houses of citizens without any legal reason?

    21 A. Members of the HVO military police did.

    22 Q. My question has to do with members of the

    23 Territorial Defence and the military police within the

    24 Territorial Defence. Do you know that, "Yes" or "No"?

    25 A. That they entered Croatian homes?

  118. 1 Q. Yes.

    2 A. No, I don't know.

    3 MR. PULISELIC: Thank you, Mr. President. I

    4 have no further questions.

    5 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Now it's too late

    6 to start with Mr. Radovic, so we will continue

    7 tomorrow.

    8 However, before we adjourn, let me express

    9 the concern of the Court about the slow pace of our

    10 proceedings. For instance, today the Prosecution had

    11 estimated about one hour for the examination-in-chief

    12 of this particular witness and it took about three

    13 hours or more. I wonder whether we could try to find

    14 ways and means of speeding up our proceedings?

    15 Otherwise, it will take more than two months for the

    16 Prosecution case.

    17 All right. So we will adjourn now and we

    18 will reconvene tomorrow morning at 9.30 sharp.

    19 --- Whereupon proceedings adjourned at

    20 5.09 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,

    21 the 25th day of August, 1998, at

    22 9.30 a.m.