1 Wednesday, 26th August 1998
2 (Open session)
3 (The accused entered court)
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Case IT-95-16-T, the
6 Prosecutor of the Tribunal versus Zoran Kupreskic,
7 Mirjan Kupreskic, Vlatko Kupreskic, Drago Josipovic,
8 Dragan Papic, Vladimir Santic, known as "Vlado."
9 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Good morning.
10 The usher probably is bringing in the witness.
11 I will take advantage of these few seconds.
12 May I tell you that we have now decided how to go about
13 a different case, so therefore we are -- if you don't
14 mind, we will change our plans and we would like to
15 announce to you what our plans are for the future
17 Now, we are going to sit the whole of next
18 week except for Monday afternoon. This has already
19 been agreed to. Now, the whole of the week of the 7th
20 will be off, not only Monday and Tuesday, but from the
21 7th to the 11th plus Monday, the 14th of September. So
22 there will be a week off plus Monday, the 14th of
23 September. We will resume on the 15th of September...
24 (The witness entered)
25 JUDGE CASSESE: ... of that week, then the
1 week of the 21st of September, the week of the 28th for
2 three days, 28th, 29th, 30th. The 1st and the 2nd of
3 October will be off. If the Prosecution has not
4 finished their case, we will go on until the 9th of
5 October. I hope that by the 9th of October, the
6 Prosecution case will be finished, and at that stage,
7 the Defence will probably have one, two weeks, two,
8 three weeks, two weeks would be better, to prepare
9 their case, so we would skip two or three weeks. If
10 they want to have three weeks, it's a pity, because
11 then on the 2nd of November, we have a Plenary Session
12 of our Tribunal, so we would also have to skip that
13 week, so we would have to have four weeks off and
14 resume on the 9th of November. If the Defence could
15 start again on the 26th of October, it would be
16 probably better. Then we could have a break on the 2nd
17 and 3rd and 4th of November and then start again on the
18 9th of November for as many weeks as are needed by the
20 As I say, what is important is that we hope
21 that by the 9th of October, at the latest, the
22 Prosecution will have completed their case.
23 So therefore, as I say again, the week of the
24 7th, the whole week will be off, including the
25 following Monday, the 14th, and we would resume on the
1 15th of September and go on until the end, except for
2 the 1st and the 2nd of October. All right?
3 Let me now turn to Mr. Pavkovic and ask how
4 many Defence counsel would like to cross-examine the
6 MR. PAVKOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours.
7 The cross-examination of attorney Jadranka
8 Slokovic-Glumac will continue first. After her,
9 attorney Luka Susak, followed by attorney Ranko
10 Radovic, Petar Puliselic. Virtually all Defence
11 counsel will cross-examine. Thank you.
12 JUDGE CASSESE: What about you then?
13 MR. PAVKOVIC: I said virtually all.
14 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
15 MR. PAVKOVIC: Thereby opening the
16 possibility for me to join in as well.
17 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. All right.
18 Before Mrs. Glumac resumes cross-examination, may I ask
19 all Defence counsel, bearing in mind the age of the
20 witness and, of course, try to refrain -- refrain, I
21 will not say "try," refrain from harassing the witness.
22 Mrs. Glumac?
23 WITNESS: Witness C.
24 Cross-examined by Mrs. Slokovic-Glumac:
25 Q. I should like to continue where we broke off
1 yesterday. All I have left are a few final questions.
2 Yesterday, we were discussing the four
3 statements that you made previous to coming to the
4 Tribunal. Did you make this statement to the Republic
5 of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the presidency, the State
6 Commission for the Collection of Data on War Crimes in
7 the Territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina? This was
8 immediately following the events on the 2nd of May,
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. After that, did you make a statement to the
12 investigating magistrate in Zenica?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. After that, did you make these two statements
15 to the investigators of The Hague Tribunal on two
16 occasions, from the 4th to the 10th of March, '98, and
17 the 23rd of October, 1994; that is correct, is it?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Do you agree, when you look through these
20 materials, you never previously mentioned this group of
21 soldiers that came with Zoran and Mirjan Kupreskic, not
22 once did you mention that they wore any kind of ribbons
23 on their uniforms?
24 A. What are ribbons?
25 Q. Strips.
1 A. Yes, yes.
2 Q. But we don't find any mention of that in the
3 four statements that you made.
4 A. If I didn't mention them, nobody asked me
5 about them.
6 Q. Fine. You mention them for the first time
7 here during the hearing.
8 A. It should have been in the previous
9 statements too.
10 Q. But you didn't say that the soldiers that you
11 saw near your house had green and yellow ribbons.
12 A. I didn't mention it?
13 Q. But you did mention it in your earlier
14 statement in '98. Did you perhaps confuse the people
15 who were wearing these ribbons?
16 A. No, no. I didn't.
17 Q. Did you recall that subsequently, later on --
18 JUDGE CASSESE: Mrs. Glumac, I'm so sorry to
19 interrupt you, but could you please slow down and wait
20 a few seconds after the answer of the witness so that
21 we can get the translation? Otherwise, the transcript
22 will not reflect what is said here in court.
23 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Okay. Thank you.
24 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
25 A. No, no, I didn't remember that subsequently.
1 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:
2 Q. Every time you signed these statements, I
3 will read out what is said to you at the end of your
4 statements: "You are making a written statement saying
5 that you have read the statement, that you agree with
6 its contents, and that you confirm that by your
8 A. The first statement, that one, I didn't read.
9 Q. But it says that you did read it and you
10 signed it. Who signed instead of you?
11 A. He introduced himself as a journalist. That
12 was the first statement.
13 Q. But it was an official statement taken by
14 official bodies with your signature.
15 A. I told you how I made that statement.
16 Q. Very well. Let's go back to the event
17 itself. Can you tell us when the shooting started, the
19 A. Early in the morning.
20 Q. How early? Can you define that?
21 A. About 5.00 or 6.00.
22 Q. Was it still dark?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Pitch dark?
25 A. When the shooting started, it was still pitch
2 Q. You said it was raining. Was there a mist?
3 A. Then, at the beginning, the rain didn't start
4 immediately. Later on, when it began to dawn, the rain
6 Q. When you reached Jozo Alilovic, was it
7 raining there?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. One more question. Did either of your
10 brothers work in the SPS factory?
11 A. Yes, one of them. The older one.
12 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Thank you very much. I
13 have no further questions.
14 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Susak.
15 MR. SUSAK: Good morning, Mr. President. I
16 only have a couple of questions for this witness.
17 Cross-examined by Mr. Susak:
18 Q. Could you tell us, please, whether the lights
19 were on when you woke up in the house in which you were
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And who put the lights on?
23 A. My sister did.
24 Q. And why?
25 A. She had got up.
1 Q. Were the lights on when you woke up?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Why didn't you switch it off if it was light?
4 A. We did switch it off as soon as we got up.
5 Q. Was it daylight when you switched off the
6 light, or did you switch it off out of fear?
7 A. We switched it off because the bullets were
8 falling into the room.
9 Q. Was it still a little dark?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. When did your father come home on the 15th,
12 that is, the eve of the event?
13 A. He was at home.
14 Q. All day?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did he go from home at all on the 15th? Did
17 he attend any meeting where war and peace were
19 A. No.
20 Q. You said that you jumped off the balcony.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. How high up is the balcony in relation to the
24 A. Three, three and a half metres.
25 Q. Three and a half metres. Were you hurt when
1 you jumped?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Was your father a member of the Territorial
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You said yesterday that he was not armed.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did he have a weapon?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Did he put away his weapon somewhere else and
11 not in the house?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Was he issued any weapon at all?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Do you know Nedzad Dzidic and Muharem?
16 A. No.
17 Q. And Ibrica Karic?
18 A. I think I do, but I'm not quite sure.
19 Q. Was he hurt on the 16th of April? Do you
20 know that he was hurt on the 16th of April?
21 A. No, I don't know.
22 Q. One more question. Do you know whether there
23 were village patrols in your village?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did they patrol the village?
1 A. I know there was guard duty.
2 Q. Was this guard duty kept regularly?
3 A. I think so.
4 MR. SUSAK: Thank you. I have no further
6 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Mr. Susak.
7 Mr. Radovic?
8 MR. RADOVIC: I shall be brief today.
9 Cross-examined by Mr. Radovic:
10 Q. First of all, I should like to focus on your
11 first statement made to the State Commission for the
12 Collection of Data on War Crimes in the Territory of
13 Bosnia-Herzegovina. When the man who questioned you
14 arrived, did he introduce himself?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. What did he say? Who was he?
17 A. I don't remember the name. I was there in a
18 large hall.
19 Q. What did he say? What was the purpose of his
21 A. Just a statement. He didn't say anything
22 about collecting data.
23 Q. But he must have told you why he was asking
24 for a statement from you.
25 A. As a journalist, I think, something like
2 Q. So he introduced himself as a journalist?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did he warn you that anything you say must be
6 A. Yes, of course.
7 Q. He did caution you about that?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You said that he wrote the statement himself.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did you read that statement before signing
13 A. No.
14 Q. But he read out the contents of what he had
16 A. No.
17 Q. So he neither read out the contents nor did
18 you read it yourself?
19 A. That is correct.
20 Q. When you were questioned by the investigating
21 magistrate, did he tell you that you shouldn't answer
22 his questions only but that you must tell everything
23 you know, that you mustn't gloss over anything, and
24 that you must tell the truth? Did the judge tell you
1 A. He did warn me that I had to tell the truth,
2 but he didn't say that I didn't just have to answer his
4 Q. But did he say that you mustn't keep silent
5 over something that you know?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. How then did you answer my learned friend
8 Glumac's question regarding those ribbons by saying
9 that you didn't say anything about them because nobody
10 asked you about them and the judge had told you that
11 you mustn't keep silent about anything?
12 A. I didn't think it was so important.
13 Yesterday she wanted me to describe those soldiers in
14 greater detail, and I didn't mention those patches at
15 first, but when she asked me about those insignia, I
16 explained in greater detail.
17 Q. So when you were talking to the magistrate,
18 you said all you knew but what you considered to be
19 important, so you yourself judged what was important
20 and what was not?
21 A. No. The judge was asking me questions and I
22 answered them.
23 Q. But didn't you freely tell your story at
24 first before the magistrate? In the investigating
25 stage, the procedure is different than it is here.
1 A. But he also put questions to me.
2 Q. But didn't you start the story on your own
4 A. Yes, I -- I started talking and then he would
5 put questions to me.
6 Q. Did you follow the dictation of your
7 statement that was being made when you were with the
9 A. I don't understand.
10 Q. When the judge was dictating to the typist.
11 A. The person who questioned me, he also typed,
12 he was also typing.
13 Q. Was it a man or a woman?
14 A. A woman.
15 Q. But was somebody typing in addition to that
16 woman? In the minutes, it says that the clerk was
17 Amira Hasanica?
18 A. That was the lady who was questioning me and
19 she wrote the report.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Could we ask counsel to
21 make breaks, please, in between questions and answers?
22 JUDGE CASSESE: Sorry, Mr. Radovic. The
23 interpreters again have asked me to ask you to make a
24 break, to wait a few seconds after getting the
25 response, an answer from the witness. Thank you.
1 MR. RADOVIC:
2 Q. Before signing, did you read the statement or
3 did you say that you had listened to the dictation and
4 so you didn't need to sign it?
5 A. I don't remember.
6 Q. Did you ask for any compensation or damages
7 when talking to the investigating magistrate?
8 A. I don't remember that either.
9 Q. You said that you had been damaged and that
10 you would ask for compensation of damages from the
12 A. I don't remember that.
13 Q. Very well. Can you describe, when you were
14 questioned by the investigators of the International
15 Tribunal and when you mentioned the Kupreskic brothers,
16 Zoran and Mirjan, were there photographs shown to you?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Were you required to describe them?
19 A. I don't know what you mean.
20 Q. You could say one was good looking. The
21 other was ugly. One had thinning hair, the other
23 A. No.
24 Q. So they didn't ask you to describe them?
25 A. No. Some photographs were shown to me.
1 Q. When were photographs shown to you?
2 A. Yesterday or the day before.
3 Q. Were the photographs shown to you before you
4 came to the Tribunal to identify the Kupreskic
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. So before you identified them, just prior to
8 the identification, you were shown their photographs;
9 did I understand you well?
10 A. Yes.
11 MR. RADOVIC: I have no further questions.
12 Thank you.
13 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Mr. Radovic.
14 Mr. Puliselic?
15 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, I did not
16 understand the meaning of that last question put to the
17 witness which was answered in the affirmative. Could
18 Mr. Radovic please specify or clarify?
19 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Radovic?
20 MR. RADOVIC: I was absolutely precise. I
21 asked the witness whether he was shown a photograph of
22 either Zoran or Mirjan Kupreskic before. His answer
23 was no, but that those photographs were shown to him
24 just prior to the hearing and before he identified the
25 accused in the courtroom. And even then, he wasn't
1 correct in pointing to Zoran and Mirjan. He pointed to
2 the two brothers together.
3 JUDGE CASSESE: I may be wrong, but I can't
4 check on the transcript, I'm afraid, because it's too
5 late to see what the answer of the witness was about
6 the photographs. Mr. Radovic just said that the
7 photographs were shown to the witness here in The Hague
8 just prior to the hearing. That is what you said.
9 Did you get it?
10 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Terrier, is it right that the
11 witness was shown the photographs, as he said, before
12 giving evidence?
13 MR. TERRIER: Your Honour, yes, indeed. That
14 is why I was asking about the meaning of that
15 question. Because after the witness, in the context of
16 the interviews we had with him, mentioned the
17 presence -- as he has done during his previous written
18 statement, the sequence of events at the place on the
19 16th of April and the presence of Mirjan and Zoran
20 Kupreskic, we also showed him pictures of Mirjan and
21 Zoran Kupreskic. But that was after he had named those
22 two persons that we showed him those photographs.
23 JUDGE CASSESE: Was that, indeed, in the
24 month of March of that year or was that just before the
1 MR. TERRIER: No, that is before arriving in
2 The Hague, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Radovic?
4 MR. RADOVIC: Mr. President, Your Honours,
5 from the testimony of the witness, it is quite clear
6 that never before coming to the court were the
7 photographs shown to him, and I think that the witness
8 was clear in that respect. But before he testified
9 here in court, I had absolutely no contact with the
10 witness to be able to suggest any answer that he may
11 have given.
12 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Puliselic?
13 MR. PULISELIC: Mr. President, I shall be
14 very brief.
15 Cross-examined by Mr. Puliselic:
16 Q. Witness C, in answer to a question by my
17 learned friend, the Prosecutor, as to the name of
18 Dragan Papic's brother, you said his name was Goran or
19 Zoran, so you don't know exactly, which is quite
20 acceptable. However, I wanted to point out that in
21 Ahmici, there are a number of persons with the surname
22 Papic. Similarly, there is a person called Goran
23 Papic, and there is another person called Zoran Papic.
24 Are you aware of that?
25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone. I'm sorry, the
1 witness's microphone is not on.
2 JUDGE CASSESE: Could you please repeat your
4 A. I pointed out that it was Dragan Papic's
6 MR. PULISELIC:
7 Q. Yes, you said that. I'm just noting it. I'm
8 not objecting in any sense.
9 Could you describe to us what that person
10 that you claim is Dragan Papic's brother looks like?
11 Tell us how tall he is, the colour of his hair, how old
12 he is, roughly. Just describe him, if you can, so that
13 we can check if it is the right person.
14 A. He's about 180 or 190 centimetres tall.
15 Q. How old was he at the time?
16 A. Well, about 20.
17 Q. The colour of his hair?
18 A. Fair, fair, like brown, golden brown.
19 Q. In your statement to the investigator on the
20 10th of March, 1998, you said that two or three days
21 after the attack, while you were staying in Jozo's
22 house, Ivo Papic arrived?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And that he asked Jozo to help him bury some
1 A. No, he didn't ask him. He came to collect
2 him and took him to bury somebody.
3 Q. But he said that they were going to bury
5 A. He didn't say Croats. He said that they were
6 going to bury someone.
7 Q. But you said that in the statement. You said
8 that he had said that he wanted him to help him to bury
9 some Croats. That is what it says in your statement.
10 A. He said that he wanted him to help him to
11 bury somebody, and when Jozo returned, he said that he
12 went to the cemetery to bury a Croat.
13 Q. When did Ivo come to Jozo's place?
14 A. About midday.
15 Q. When did Ivo return? When did Jozo return?
16 A. In the evening.
17 Q. Let me remind you again that you clearly
18 stated that these were Croats. We have the statement
19 here. Do you remember that?
20 A. It was Croats, but he didn't say on that
21 occasion that -- Ivo didn't say, "We're going to bury
22 Croats," but they were Croats.
23 MR. PULISELIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I
24 have no further questions.
25 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Pavkovic, are
1 you going to cross-examine the witness or can we stop
3 MR. PAVKOVIC: No, Mr. President. Thank
5 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you so much. I wonder
6 whether the Prosecutor would like to re-examine the
8 MR. TERRIER: Yes, indeed, Mr. President, a
9 few questions which will be as quickly as possible.
10 Re-examined by Mr. Terrier:
11 Q. Witness, during the trial yesterday, you
12 indicated in this room Zoran and Mirjan Kupreskic
13 without being able to give their first names. I would
14 like for you to indicate to this Tribunal how you knew
15 at that time the Kupreskic brothers, Mirjan and Zoran
16 Kupreskic, and in what circumstances did you know them
17 before the 16th of April, 1993? When did you meet
19 A. I knew them. I went up to their
20 neighbourhood. They were in the neighbourhood. It's
21 not far from our house where they lived. It's about
22 300, 400 metres away. That's how. Zoran would come to
23 my house as well.
24 Q. The person that you designated as Zoran
25 Kupreskic, would he come often to your house?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Why would he come? Why would he come to your
4 A. Well, he would come with my older brother,
5 with Senus, about a pullover or something like that
6 that my mother was knitting.
7 Q. Are you saying then that your mother was
8 knitting a sweater for Zoran Kupreskic?
9 A. I can't recall very well whether she was
10 knitting it for him, but he would come.
11 Q. Witness, you were interviewed on the 2nd of
12 May, 1993 by an official from the Centre for the War
13 Crimes and Genocide. Do you recall the circumstances
14 under which this meeting took place? Where was it
15 located? How long did it take? Who were the persons
16 who asked questions and how long did you answer those
18 A. Well, that was in a hall. There were about
19 60 to 100 persons there in that hall. He came in as a
20 journalist. Prior to my statements, other persons made
21 statements, and he asked me a few questions, and that
22 lasted about ten minutes to half an hour.
23 Q. Is it accurate to say that during that
24 interview of 2nd May, 1993, you named, among other
25 names, the names of Zoran and Mirjan Kupreskic as
1 having been seen by you as soldiers on the 16th of
2 April, 1993?
3 A. Excuse me. Could you repeat the question,
5 Q. Is it, indeed, true, that in his statement
6 that we are speaking of now that was taken on the 2nd
7 of May, 1993, that you named, among others, Mirjan
8 Kupreskic and Zoran Kupreskic as soldiers that you saw
9 on the 16th of April, 1993?
10 A. I can't recall that.
11 Q. You were then interviewed on the 2nd of
12 December, 1993 by an examining magistrate from Zenica.
13 Is it, indeed, true on that date you also named, among
14 others, Zoran and Mirjan Kupreskic as soldiers on the
15 16th of April, 1993?
16 A. I can't remember that.
17 Q. Now let us move for a moment to what happened
18 on the morning of the 16th of April when your brother
19 was brought by a soldier, after jumping from the first
20 floor balcony, and then you heard this gunfire. Now,
21 for everything to be clear, could you first describe as
22 clearly as possible how your brother was dressed?
23 A. He had a black vest. I think he also had a
24 Texas jean jacket on and jeans. He was wearing jeans.
25 Q. How, at that time, were you dressed?
1 A. I had a light blue T-shirt, a dark lower part
2 of a sweat suit which was dark blue.
3 Q. In order to complete the information we have,
4 can you please describe what took place that morning
5 with your father?
6 A. When we started hearing the shots, he started
7 coming back from the mosque home, because we were
8 locked, and he wanted to unlock us. He came to Zahir
9 Ahmic, the neighbour's house. There were some soldiers
10 at that house who told him, "Come here." He tried to
11 flee, and then they hurt him in his shoulder.
12 Q. Would you please say what happened to your
13 older brother? I'm not speaking of the one who was
14 killed on the 16th of April, 1993, but your older
15 brother whose name you will not give, but whom you will
16 simply refer to as your older brother. Will you please
17 tell this Tribunal what happened to him?
18 A. My older brother?
19 Q. Yes, the oldest in the family.
20 A. Well, he was killed on the front-line
21 somewhere near Ahmici.
22 MR. TERRIER: No further questions,
23 Mr. President.
24 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
25 JUDGE MAY: Can you help us with this: The
1 two brothers who you knew, the Kupreskics, can you give
2 us an idea of how long you had known them in April of
3 the year we're dealing with? How long had you known
5 A. The 16th of April, 1993?
6 JUDGE MAY: Yes, before then.
7 A. I had known them -- well, I had known them
8 for eight years. That's how much I can recall.
9 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Had you ever spoken to them
10 yourself? Had you talked to them?
11 A. Yes.
12 JUDGE MAY: Zoran, you had spoken to him, had
14 A. Yes. You know, at school or during summer
15 recess, we would play soccer, all of us, and that's
16 where we would meet most frequently.
17 JUDGE MAY: And his brother, did you meet him
18 too and talk to him?
19 A. Yes, I would meet him.
20 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.
21 JUDGE CASSESE: I have one or two minor
22 questions. I am afraid I was unable to check the
23 transcript of yesterday's hearing. I can't remember
24 what you said about the place where you were with Tomo
25 when you saw Zoran and Mirjan Kupreskic enter the house
1 of Jozo. Were you in a yard or a few metres from that
2 house, Jozo's house, or were you in a different house?
3 A. I was in the house, in another house.
4 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, so I was right then.
5 Could you pick up Prosecution Exhibit 68?
6 I wonder whether the registrar could be so
7 kind as to give the witness Prosecution Exhibit 68.
8 Could you please indicate to us on that
9 exhibit where this house is located?
10 MR. TERRIER: Perhaps we should go to closed
11 session because, indeed, that was shown in closed
13 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, we are. Thank you.
14 (Closed session)
13 Page 1009 redacted - in closed session
13 Page 1010 redacted - in closed session
13 Page 1011 redacted - in closed session
9 (Open session)
10 (The witness entered court)
11 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning, Witness D. May
12 I ask you to read the solemn declaration?
13 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
14 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the
16 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be
18 WITNESS: D
19 Examined by Mr. Terrier:
20 Q. Mr. President, I will issue a folded piece of
21 paper to be shown to the witness.
22 THE REGISTRAR: This is document 72,
23 Prosecution Exhibit.
24 MR. TERRIER:
25 Q. Madam, you are here benefiting from
1 protection measures. I'm now going to ask you a number
2 of questions and ask that you not give any names or
3 identifying information. If we wish for the Tribunal
4 to receive more detailed information, we would then go
5 to closed session. You are here in a protected
6 environment. You may answer questions in a very serene
7 environment with security.
8 May I first ask you to give the composition
9 of your family?
10 A. I had five sons and a husband.
11 Q. In 1993, how old were your children?
12 A. My oldest was born in 1964, the second child
13 in 1966, the third in 1972, the fourth in 1973, and the
14 fifth in 1979.
15 Q. Now, I understand you've always -- well, you
16 currently live in Ahmici or you've always lived in
17 Ahmici; is that right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. In which neighbourhood of Ahmici was your
20 house located?
21 A. In the lower part of Ahmici.
22 Q. Madam, could you please talk to us about the
23 time period preceding the 16th of April, 1993, from the
24 end of the month of September or October 1992 until
25 April 1993, and tell us what your relations were with
1 your neighbours, in particular with the Croat residents
2 of Ahmici, did you have any difficulties, and do you
3 know whether or not other persons, other Muslims like
4 yourself, encountered any difficulties during that time
6 A. Of course, they did. Especially we in the
7 lower part of Ahmici, we were in very great danger, the
8 people closer to the road, in particular, so that there
9 would be an incident almost daily. They would insult
10 us. If they meet a woman wearing pantaloons, they
11 would say, "You balija woman." I didn't have any
12 contact with men. He would come by in the car and
13 shout, "We will not have pantaloons walking here."
14 They would call out "Balijas." In the evening, we
15 would be sitting together, then they would throw
16 grenades into our meadows. The people closer to the
17 road would have their windows broken.
18 We were sorrowful. We didn't know what was
19 happening. And so on, it went on like that.
20 We saw that relations were not what they used
21 to be. Before, we would exchange visits, and then
22 suddenly, they somehow separated. They were doing
23 something in secret. We didn't know what they were
24 doing. But we saw that things were not what they used
25 to be.
1 Q. When did things change?
2 A. In '92, things had changed. When our people
3 went to Visoko, from then on, relations were not the
4 same. We didn't exchange visits, or very rarely.
5 Q. Before that change, did Croat neighbours have
6 friendly relationships with you?
7 A. Yes, indeed. We visited those who were
8 nearby. This was a great shock for us. We were nice
9 with each other, all of us.
10 Q. Can you name the Croat neighbours with whom
11 you had friendly relations before the change?
12 A. I can. First the Papics, then we would visit
13 the Kupreskics too. When Vlatko Kupreskic was operated
14 (sic), he was small. We went there before too. But
15 especially then, we visited his mother and Zoran's
16 mother, and she would come to visit us too and
17 everything was just fine. Then the Vidovics too.
18 There were never any problems between us.
19 Q. Can you describe in detail the problems you
20 had, for example, with the neighbours that you just
21 named and the closest Croat neighbours in particular?
22 What type of problems in particular did you have with
23 those people and what type of events occurred?
24 A. Well, let me see. We were in jeopardy. When
25 incidents started in Nadioci and people were chased
1 out, they came to complain that they were coming in the
2 evening to intimidate them with socks over their
3 heads. In the Bungalow, there were some troops there.
4 We don't know. But our men went there too, and I
5 personally saw them coming and going very frequently.
6 We saw that something was wrong, that they didn't want
7 to work with our people; they worked separately. Then
8 it started at Nadioci and people came from there,
9 telling us and crying about it.
10 There was a small -- there was a village with
11 a few Muslims there, and they would -- Salkic. What's
12 his name now? Eso's father. I can't remember the
14 Q. Do you remember what happened to that family,
15 the Salkic family, in Nadioci?
16 A. Of course, I remember. At the time, there
17 were just provocations, and then suddenly, I was
18 spending the night with a relative because we were in
19 danger, so often I would go up there. The army would
20 pass. I was close to the road and I was afraid. So I
21 would go and spend the night in the upper village.
22 One morning, I met his father just below the
23 upper mosque crying, saying what had happened. And he
24 said, "They've killed my Eso, and I'm carrying him to
25 do the religious rites prior to burial in the upper
1 mosque." I didn't talk with him at any length. I
2 hurried home.
3 I saw that everything had turned out upside
4 down. I went to see what had happened to my house, and
5 then -- I can't remember his father's name, Cerimic, he
6 would also come crying, saying that something was
7 wrong, that they were working for themselves and that
8 they were provoking them.
9 Then Nail Ahmic would come and his wife.
10 They abandoned their own home because of these
11 provocations. All of this was happening near my house.
12 They also demolished the house of Amila. She
13 was in Australia. She would also come and tell us
14 about these things.
15 This was a terrible surprise for all of us,
16 that it should come from our neighbours, because before
17 that, we had good relations. The same happened in
18 Nadioci and with us. They too used to live together
19 well and exchange visits as we did.
20 Q. This man that you met that mentioned the
21 death of his son stating that he was killed, that they
22 killed him, who was he referring to? Who were "they"?
23 A. Eso. He said, "My neighbours killed my
24 Eso." They planted some explosives. I don't
25 understand anything about that. And that he was in a
1 couple of pieces. I didn't look, but he just told me
2 that, and he was crying. He headed towards the mosque
3 and I went homewards, and that's how it was.
4 Q. Do you recall other events during that time
5 period in which people that you knew, Muslims, were
7 A. This went on like this, provocation after
8 provocation, and -- when was it? I think the 20th of
9 October, we didn't stay at home because I personally
10 experienced something that I thought I would never
11 survive. My house was burnt, my car was torched,
12 everything I had around the house. The ground floor
13 was set on fire. They took my man, my husband. They
14 beat him up. He returned, begging them to let the cows
15 out, and the commander at the time from Nadioci was
16 somebody in their army, and they beat him up. He
17 couldn't move. He had to lie down. And that is when
18 we abandoned our village.
19 After a day or two, my neighbour told me that
20 my cows were wandering in the roads. I came with my
21 brother-in-law. I picked up my girl from the school.
22 My house was at the end of the village. And I went in
23 to pick up some clothing because I was in Vrhovine; I
24 didn't have anything to wear.
25 When I entered the house, everything was
1 black on the ground floor and upstairs it was charred.
2 One room was still on fire. Two men were looking after
3 my house. They were from Nadioci. He wore a black
4 beret on his head, and they looked after my house and
5 they told us to come back, that they wouldn't hurt us.
6 He said that we should go back but that we should
7 surrender our weapons. I didn't discuss this with
8 him. My sister-in-law said that if we had some, we
9 would have surrendered, and if we had had weapons, then
10 this wouldn't have happened. So I collected what I
11 needed and what I could carry and I took my cows
12 towards Vrhovine.
13 After that, I went back again, about 20 days
14 later. I first went to see one sister in the upper
15 village. I stayed there for a while because my house
16 was burnt. Then I visited with my other sister. When
17 I gained a bit of courage, I would work during the
18 daytime and spend the night up there.
19 But the provocations continued. If it was
20 fine during the day, in the evening they would start
21 shooting again, and then cars would go by and they
22 would insult us. There were people, displaced people,
23 from Jajce. They came to stay with us, and they looted
24 their homes. This went on until the 16th of April.
25 I too would leave my house and stay in the
1 weekend home of Dzambeg, and then the people around me,
2 I would stay during the night, and then during the day,
3 I would work in the fields. I didn't even have
4 electricity. And that's how it went on.
5 Q. Madam, for some clarification about your
6 relations. You stated a moment ago that your husband
7 was beaten by soldiers; is that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Do you remember why these soldiers would have
10 done such a thing?
11 A. He had come back to release the cows. We
13 came in. He was killed after the 16th of April. He
14 said, "Halid is killed. Get out. There are none of our
15 people around. You must leave the house." And he
16 dragged me out of the basement. So my husband and I
17 came out. He saw that the stable was on fire, so he
18 went back to release the cow. This young man caught
19 him, a young man, 20-year-old, he threw him to the
20 ground and kicked him as much as he could. He broke
21 his nose. It is still crooked as a result. That's
22 what happened.
23 The reason was that he went to release the
24 cows and then he was really on his way up to the upper
25 village. That's as much as I know. I don't know
1 anything more.
2 Q. Again, for clarification about your account,
3 all of this took place from the 20th of October, 1992;
4 is that correct?
5 A. All this was happening prior to the 16th of
6 April. I can't really remember all the details. These
7 were things that we experienced until the 16th of
8 April. I didn't know that this would happen so as to
9 take note of the dates and the events and the order in
10 which they happened.
11 Q. Madam, a moment ago you talked about the
12 Papic family as being neighbours, Croat neighbours,
13 with whom you had excellent relations, or at least
14 friendly relations, while stating also that these
15 relations at one moment then transformed. Do you
16 recall what was the behaviour or the attitude that
17 Dragan Papic had, the son of Papic?
18 A. Dragan Papic knows everything. Let him take
19 on his soul. Let him swear on the life of his son
20 because he knows who killed our men, and all these
21 other neighbours of ours that have been accused because
22 they did everything in gloves. They pretended. They
23 know what happened to so many of our people, so many
24 innocent victims, so many orphaned children. If we had
25 had anything, then this would not have happened to us.
1 That's all I can say. And he knows everything. He
2 went to the Bungalow. They had soldiers there who
3 would gather every day. They did bad things at night.
4 The next day, they would be singing and drinking and
5 rejoicing, and we were all very sad because we didn't
6 know what to expect for the day.
7 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, may we now go
8 into closed session? I would like to show a number of
9 documents to the witness.
10 (Closed session)
13 Page 1023 redacted - in closed session
13 Page 1024 redacted - in closed session
11 (Open session)
12 MR. TERRIER:
13 Q. Madam, we are now in open session once again;
14 therefore, I would ask that you not give any names or
15 any identifying information.
16 A moment ago, you mentioned Dragan Papic.
17 You stated that you would see him going to the
18 Bungalow. Do you remember how he was dressed?
19 A. That depended. As he felt -- he did whatever
20 he wanted. He walked around in all kinds of clothes.
21 He would black himself and his wife in black walking
22 (sic). He would frighten people, provoke people. He
23 would pick up a rifle. (redacted)
24 (redacted) and he came with his gun,
25 and I asked him why he was carrying a gun, and he said,
1 "There was a deer with a broken leg; I want to kill
2 him." And he would provoke in this way. He was full
3 of himself. Before, when we met, we were good
4 neighbours. We never quarrelled or anything like
6 I was crossing the road from Dzemila Ahmic.
7 It was Ramadan. We were having a religious meeting,
8 having dinner, and he went off to the Bungalow, and I
9 found it strange. This was just before nightfall.
10 Maybe it was night-time already. So I personally met
11 him. He didn't say anything to me. He passed by me.
12 I'm older, so he should say hello, but he didn't say
14 I had two meadows there. I could see him
15 when I was working in the field and I could see him
16 from my balcony too. I could see him going there
18 Q. Madam, do you see in this room the man you
19 just spoke of?
20 A. I do. He has a beard.
21 Q. Will you please tell us where he is located?
22 A. I can. Near the door over there.
23 Q. Madam, I would now like for you to explain to
24 this Tribunal what happened on the 16th of April,
25 according to your own memory, and with the words that
1 are your own.
2 A. On the 16th of April, in the morning, I was
3 in my own house. I wasn't sleeping. I, my daughter,
4 and my husband got up. My husband went to the mosque
5 and we got up to pray, and my daughter was getting
6 ready to go. She put on a blue sweater. I remember
7 well. She put a scarf on her head. And she didn't go.
8 He went out and locked the door. He couldn't
9 wait, he didn't want to be late, so she didn't go. So
10 I was praying to God. I put the water on for the
11 coffee. Then a bullet whizzed by my head and hit
12 against the stove. She was still where she was
13 before. Then there was another bullet that hit the
14 cupboard. She sat down. I realised that something was
6 (Closed session)
13 Pages 1029 to 1091 redacted - in closed session
21 (Open session)
22 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
23 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the
25 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
1 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Mr. President, may I
3 JUDGE CASSESE: What about the open session?
4 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session.
5 JUDGE CASSESE: Are we bringing up the
7 THE REGISTRAR: He has a facial distortion,
8 but it is transmitted in the lobby.
9 JUDGE CASSESE: I see. I understand it is
10 public, but because of the facial distortion, we have
11 to keep the blinds down.
12 Mr. Moskowitz?
13 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Thank you, Mr. President.
14 WITNESS: FAHRUDIN AHMIC
15 Examined by Mr. Moskowitz:
16 Q. Could you please state your name and date of
18 A. Ahmic Fahrudin, born on the 8th of November,
19 1953 in Ahmici.
20 Q. Now, Mr. Ahmic, you have requested face
21 protection, and that has been granted. So you may
22 testify here in all confidence that that protection
23 measure has, in fact, been granted to you.
24 Mr. Ahmic, could you tell us, up until 1993,
25 where did you live?
1 A. In 1993, I lived in Ahmici.
2 Q. How long did you live in Ahmici?
3 A. Since my birth until 1993, when I was
4 expelled from there. Except in between, I worked in
5 Rijeka for three and a half years.
6 Q. Essentially, you were a life-long resident of
7 the village of Ahmici?
8 A. Yes, I always lived in Ahmici.
9 Q. Could you tell us how much education you've
11 A. I have completed eight years of education. I
12 work in the Zenica ironworks as a highly skilled worker
13 in metallurgy, in the coke crushing plant.
14 Q. Do you work there now at the Zenica steel
16 A. Yes, I still work in the steel factory.
17 Q. Now, you said you lived in Ahmici for all of
18 your life. Did you live in the same house in Ahmici
19 all your life or did you have different homes?
20 A. I lived with my parents until I built a new
21 house for myself. I used the land and I built a new
23 Q. What part of Ahmici did your parents live?
24 A. In the upper part of Ahmici.
25 Q. Where did you build your new house?
1 A. I built it in Tuk. That's the area. We call
2 it Tuk.
3 Q. When did you build that house, the new house?
4 A. The new house, I started building it
5 somewhere in 1980, 1980.
6 Q. You mentioned the neighbourhood. Who were
7 some of your neighbours in that neighbourhood around
8 your new house?
9 A. My closest neighbours were Marija Papic, Pero
10 Papic, then Dragan Papic further away, and Skoro, the
11 three Skoro brothers, three, yes.
12 Q. These were all your Croatian neighbours, I
13 take it?
14 A. All Croatian, except further down, there was
15 Ahmic Alija. He was my closest neighbour further
16 down. Of the Muslims, further away, there were a few
17 others, Sulejman Ahmic and his son Enver Ahmic with his
19 Q. You mentioned, I think, Alija Ahmic. Did he
20 have a son by the name of Abdulah?
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. MOSKOWITZ: May I ask the usher at this
23 time to show an exhibit to the witness, please?
24 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 75.
25 MR. MOSKOWITZ:
1 Q. Now, before you start pointing at everything,
2 I just want to ask you a couple of questions,
3 Mr. Ahmic. Did you have a chance to examine this
4 exhibit before coming into court today?
5 A. No, I did not.
6 Q. Do you recall looking at a similar aerial map
7 in which you placed some circles around houses that you
8 could identify?
9 A. I didn't understand you.
10 Q. Do you recall having looked at something like
11 this earlier, this picture, on an earlier occasion when
12 you and I were talking, and you pointed out some of the
13 houses that you could identify, like, your house and
14 Papic's house, and we drew some circles around them.
15 Do you remember doing that?
16 A. Yes, we did it here, but before that, I had
17 no possibility to see it or to show anything or to do
19 Q. I understand. Now, could you look at the
20 exhibit, which is now number Exhibit 75, and see if
21 those are the circles that correspond to the circles
22 that you placed on the map?
23 A. Yes. Circle 75, well, it's missing here.
24 Q. I think maybe you misunderstand my question.
25 Let me ask you this: Do you see your house on the map?
1 A. Yes, I do.
2 Q. What number is your house?
3 A. Thirty-seven.
4 Q. Now, is that the house that you said you
5 built or started to build in 1980?
6 A. Yes, that is the house that I built, the new
8 Q. Now, you mentioned Alija Ahmic, whose son was
9 Abdulah, as one of your neighbours, one of your Muslim
10 neighbours. Do you see his house and, if so, what is
11 the number of his house?
12 A. Yes, down here, number 38. This is his
14 Q. Now, you also mentioned having lived close to
15 some Croatian neighbours. I believe you mentioned
16 Marija and Pero, for example. Do you see their houses
17 marked and, if so, what letters or numbers were they
18 given on this map?
19 A. Pero's house has the letter "H" here, and
20 Marija's house is here shown under letter "I."
21 Q. You also mentioned Ivo Papic or Dragan
22 Papic's house. What letter or number, if any,
23 corresponds or matches that house?
24 A. It is this house under letter "A," yes. This
25 is Ivo Papic's house where Dragan Papic lived together
1 with him.
2 Q. You mentioned that you were a life-long
3 resident of Ahmici and moved into your house, here
4 number 37 on the map, in 1980. Could you describe for
5 us the kinds of relationships you had with your
6 Croatian neighbours at that time, let's say, between
7 1980 and 1991 or 1992?
8 A. We were very close. We lived in peace. We
9 would visit each other. I personally went to attend
10 the party when Dragan Papic was leaving for the JNA
11 service, when he was married. Marija would come. We
12 really lived very well.
13 Q. Did you ever visit the Ivo Papic house and,
14 as a friend, be entertained in that house or be invited
15 into that house?
16 A. Yes. I was at Ivo Papic's house. He built
17 my bathroom. He did all sorts of works. We were very
18 good, and I would visit him.
19 Q. You said, I think, that Ivo Papic lived in
20 that house. Did you say, as well, that Dragan Papic
21 lived in that house?
22 A. Yes. Ivo Papic lived on the ground floor,
23 and Dragan Papic lived on the upper floor.
24 Q. Now, you indicated that Dragan Papic, at some
25 point, went off to join the JNA. That would be the
1 National Yugoslavian Army?
2 A. Could you repeat the question? I didn't
3 understand it very well.
4 Q. I'm sorry. You said that you attended a
5 function at the Ivo Papic house when Dragan Papic was
6 going to join the JNA. Tell us what the JNA is.
7 A. When Dragan Papic was leaving for his service
8 to the Yugoslav People's Army when Yugoslavia existed,
9 I was there. And when he had the wedding, I was there
11 Q. Did you also join the JNA or participate in
12 the JNA yourself?
13 A. Yes, I did. I served in Novi Sad.
14 Q. When was that, about?
15 A. That was in 1976. I joined in October 1976.
16 Q. Now, I want to direct your attention to the
17 early 1990s in Ahmici. Let me first ask you: Were you
18 a member of the Territorial Defence at that time?
19 A. Yes, I was a member of the Territorial
21 Q. Could you tell us briefly what was the
22 Territorial Defence in Ahmici?
23 A. The Territorial Defence in Ahmici existed for
24 security reasons so that there would be no incidents
25 flaring up. I joined the Territorial Defence because I
1 was fired from the steel factory, and I was on hold
2 until a next job would be found for me. And I decided
3 to join the Territorial Defence because I thought,
4 perhaps, they would help me with the new job.
5 Q. Why were you fired from the steel factory?
6 A. Simply, we were put on hold, on a waiting
7 list, sort of. There was not enough work to do.
8 Q. So it was a lay-off, basically?
9 A. Yes. You know, the production had to be
10 halted, and they couldn't keep paying our salaries.
11 Q. Now, originally, when you joined the
12 Territorial Defence, were there joint patrols? That is
13 to say, did the Croatians and the Muslims cooperate
14 together in patrolling Ahmici?
15 A. Yes, they did. I was on patrol together with
16 them, because my house is located next to the road, and
17 we would go on patrol together. They would also give
18 me weapons. I got it from Rafael Skoro. I got an M-48
19 machine gun, and I would surrender the weapon back to
20 him when my patrol duty was over.
21 Q. Now, this person who gave you the machine
22 gun, was that a Croatian neighbour of yours or a Muslim
23 neighbour of yours?
24 A. Well, it was not the automatic machine gun
25 that he issued to me. It was a rifle, an M-47, I think
1 it was called, and it was issued to me by a Croatian by
2 the name Rafael Skoro.
3 Q. And this was while there was cooperation and
4 joint patrol between Croatians and Muslims in Ahmici?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, did there come a time when this
7 cooperation ended?
8 A. Yes, it did end, indeed.
9 Q. What happened?
10 A. Well, what happened, they simply -- well,
11 Skoro Rafael simply said, "We cannot go on patrol
12 together anymore. You go and join your people," and
13 this is what happened. I left them and I would join my
14 people and would go on guard duty together with them
16 Q. Now, the Territorial Defence after the split,
17 would you describe the Territorial Defence as an
18 organised military operation or was it more of a
19 neighbourhood watch?
20 A. Well, when we started with these guard
21 duties, we didn't have weapons. Well, maybe a person
22 here and there had a personal gun. We would go on
23 guard, simply because of certain incidents. And
24 sometimes it was not really guards, proper guard duty.
25 We would sit down, play cards or play chess. That is
1 how it looked like.
2 As far as the organisation of the Territorial
3 Defence is concerned, well, it comprised the citizens
4 who were put on a waiting list, because there was no
5 work for them. There was actually no special
6 organisation involved, no real organisation.
7 Q. Now, at some point, was this Territorial
8 Defence incorporated into the BiH army?
9 A. I do not know when they were incorporated
10 into the BiH army. I really don't know.
11 Q. Without telling us when, do you know if, in
12 fact, it happened, that there was this incorporation?
13 A. Well, I know that it did take place, but I do
14 not know when this incorporation took place.
15 Q. Did the transformation or change from
16 Territorial Defence to being part of the BiH army
17 create any changes at all in the way the patrols were
18 done in Ahmici?
19 A. No, it brought about no change. Everything
20 remained as it was before.
21 Q. Now I want to direct your attention to the
22 incident that occurred in Ahmici in October of 1992.
23 Do you recall that at all?
24 A. Yes, I do recall it.
25 Q. Could you tell us what you recall?
1 A. Well, just before this event took place, I
2 was not at home. I was at Han Bila with my friends.
3 In the evening, when I came home from my job, my wife
4 told me that I should go on guard down to my house,
5 because she said that the situation was no good or
6 there could be problems around the bend.
7 I was on guard duty that very evening. In
8 the morning, I don't know when, I think it was around
9 5.30 in the morning when we were supposed to pray, a
10 detonation, an explosion was heard, and shots started
11 being fired. So the shots were fired. I personally do
12 not know why, how, and what exactly was going on. I
13 was just assigned this guard duty. Abdulah and myself
14 were there together.
15 Later on, Muris came in, that is his brother,
16 and he told us that we should withdraw and that we
17 should go to Ahmici. However, I had a wife and
18 children in my house. I went there to wake them up.
19 Actually, they were already awake, and they were asking
20 me what was going on. I couldn't tell them what was
21 going on. I just told them, "You get ready and I will
22 take you up there."
23 I did this. They took things with them, and
24 I took them to the upper part of Ahmici. Afterwards, I
25 came back. I went down to Sakib's stable, because this
1 is how far we withdrew, how far we went to get away for
2 the first time.
3 Here I saw Sakib Ahmic. He was approaching
4 us. At that time, Alija's stable was already on fire,
5 and he asked me, "What is going on? Why is the stable
6 on fire?" We couldn't answer him. He was very upset,
7 and he went down to see Ivo Papic.
8 While we were there, I heard, myself, shots
9 being fired from the forest, from Dragan's house, from
10 that direction, towards Mehmed's house. I didn't stay
11 there for a long time. There was no order. You didn't
12 know what to do. You just did whatever you thought was
13 best, so I got away towards upper Ahmici.
14 In the evening, Zasna, Mehmed's wife, got out
15 with her children, and I guess her mother was with them
16 as well. And she said that her house had been set on
17 fire and that they barely managed to get out.
18 Q. May I interrupt you just to clarify a couple
19 of points, Mr. Ahmic? You said, I think, that evening
20 you were on guard duty. Using Exhibit 75, which is
21 that piece of paper next to you, and if you recall
22 this, could you demonstrate or show where you were on
23 guard duty when the shooting started?
24 A. Here, under Abdulah's house, Alija's house,
25 that is Abdulah's son's house.
1 Q. That would be around House 38 as marked on
2 this exhibit; is that right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, were you armed at the time?
5 A. No, I was not armed.
6 Q. Once the shooting started, where did you go,
7 if you could show us on that exhibit?
8 A. I first went to my house. My wife and my
9 children, I took them out. I told them to get away, to
10 go to Upper Ahmici. Then I went out together with
11 them. I took them to Upper Ahmici. That was next to
12 Vlatko's house. And then I came back again to Sakib's
14 Q. Now, let's stop there for a moment. You
15 mentioned Sakib. Were there two Sakibs in Ahmici,
16 Mr. Ahmic?
17 A. Yes, there were two Sakibs.
18 Q. Is the Sakib you're referring to here, is
19 this the Sakib -- well, why don't you tell us which
20 Sakib you're referring to?
21 A. I'm referring to Sakib Biric. That's
22 Biricini Sakib. That's how we called him.
23 Q. Was this Sakib related in any way to Abdulah;
24 do you know?
25 A. Well, that is his uncle -- well, Sakib is
1 Abdulah's uncle's father's brother.
2 Q. In any event, some relationship to Abdulah?
3 A. Yes, they were relatives, indeed.
4 Q. Now, did you take your family at this time
5 then to the house of your father and mother in Upper
6 Ahmici where you used to live?
7 A. Yes. I just escorted them to a point above
8 Vlatko's house from where the Muslim houses start, and
9 I told them to go ahead to Ahmici, to go on.
10 Q. Then you returned to Sakib's house. Could
11 you show us where Sakib's house is, please?
12 A. No, I didn't return to Sakib's house.
13 Q. I'm sorry.
14 A. I returned as far as Sakib's stable.
15 Q. Could you find that on the map for us?
16 A. Here -- no. No, let me see. Here. Here
18 Q. And that would be fairly close to that spot
19 that's marked "X" on the map; is that correct? Just to
20 the right of that?
21 A. Yes, just there. Exactly here (indicating).
22 Q. What did you do or see when you got to that
24 A. When I got to the stable, there were another
25 two men there, another two neighbours who told me that
1 Mehmed was inside with his wife and children, that
2 there was fire around them and they couldn't get out.
3 Q. Now, you've mentioned Mehmed. Do you see his
4 house on Exhibit 75?
5 A. I do. Here it is marked with number 3
7 Q. Go on. What happened next?
8 A. When they said that Mehmed was inside and his
9 wife and children and that they couldn't get out
10 because of the shooting that was coming from Dragan
11 Papic and Ivo Papic's house and from the woods, they
12 were simply there. They had no weapons.
13 Q. Did you see firing coming from Papic Ivo's
14 house directed at Mehmed's house?
15 A. I didn't see it, but I heard these two men
16 saying to me that the fire was coming from down there,
17 and I heard the fire but I couldn't see.
18 Q. Then what did you do?
19 A. After that, I withdrew to Upper Ahmici to
20 look for my wife and children; however, they had gone
21 further towards Vrhovine. So I stayed in Ahmici, in
22 Upper Ahmici, on guard duty.
23 Q. Now, you mention that your family went to
24 Upper Ahmici. Do you know if other families as well
25 from that part of Ahmici, do you know if they also fled
1 their homes and went to other areas of the village to
2 avoid the shooting?
3 A. Yes. There are many of them. More than half
4 the village fled to Vrhovine and Poculica.
5 Q. Now, do you know what prompted this conflict
6 in 1992 in Ahmici, either know it personally, by
7 personal knowledge, or by what you've heard from other
9 A. I personally don't know anything about that,
10 what it was that had provoked the conflict.
11 Q. What do you understand happened?
12 A. I don't know. I don't know what happened.
13 Q. Did you hear anything about a barricade that
14 had been set up on the main road to Vitez and Busovaca,
15 that main road around the cemetery?
16 A. I heard that there was a barricade. I wasn't
17 connected to the barricade and I know nothing about it.
18 Q. Now, you said your family went up to live in
19 a home in Upper Ahmici. Did you then join them a short
20 time later?
21 A. No. They had left for Vrhovine, and later
22 on, after some time, I don't know exactly how many days
23 later, I went to fetch them and brought them back to
24 Upper Ahmici.
25 Q. Did you remain in Upper Ahmici for a period
1 of time with your family?
2 A. I stayed in Gornji Ahmici. Afterwards, we
3 returned home. I don't know when this was.
4 But I didn't say, after this mess had
5 happened, I forgot to mention that I went back and
6 then, two days later, I dragged Halid, who was killed,
7 myself and Mirsad Ahmic, we dragged him to Hodzija's
8 mosque and his body was taken over by his mother.
9 Q. Tell us, who was Halid Pezer?
10 A. Halid Pezer was Omer Pezer's son.
11 Q. How old was he?
12 A. Roughly, I would say, 18, 17. I don't know
14 Q. Where did you find his body?
15 A. We found it behind Pjanics' house.
16 Q. Do you know how he was killed?
17 A. He was killed with a single bullet, I think
18 from a sniper rifle.
19 Q. Do you know when he was killed?
20 A. I don't know when, but I heard that he had
21 been killed.
22 Q. Was this in connection with the incident you
23 had described where the shooting had been taking place
24 into Mehmed Ahmic's house, that incident?
25 A. No, no. It's not linked to that. He was
1 killed over there.
2 Q. Was it the same day?
3 A. The same day, yes, when the shooting
4 occurred. It was the same day.
5 Q. Now, after you joined your family in Upper
6 Ahmici following this incident, I think you've
7 indicated that you returned back to your house at some
8 point later. Did you return with your family or
9 without your family?
10 A. I returned home with my family, and on my way
11 home, just above Pero's house, I was stopped by Dragan
12 and Vinko as I was going home.
13 Q. Could you show us on the exhibit there in
14 front of you the route you took with your family to go
15 home on the day you were stopped by the Papics?
16 A. This is where I was stopped by Dragan Papic
17 and Vinko Vidovic. They told me that I should go to
18 Slavko Skoro's to ask for permission and to be safe
19 when I return home. However, I didn't do as they told
20 me. I went home.
21 Q. Now, there is some markers there next to
22 you. If you could take a red marker and just put an
23 "X" at the approximate point on the exhibit where you
24 were stopped by the Papics as you were going home. The
25 usher will assist you.
1 A. (Marks)
2 Q. That's fine. That will do. Could you tell
3 us again or tell us who was at that point when you
4 arrived there with your family on your way home?
5 A. I only saw Simo near the bunker. The bunker
6 had been made by my own building blocks and there was a
7 machine gun there. I think it was an M-53, an old
9 Q. You say there was a bunker there made from
10 blocks taken from your house?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And there was a machine gun of some sort
13 behind those blocks?
14 A. Yes, there was.
15 Q. Who was around that machine gun when you
17 A. There was Simo Vidovic, the son of Vinko
18 Vidovic, who stopped me together with Dragan Papic.
19 Q. How was -- if you recall, how was Vinko
20 Vidovic dressed? In civilian clothes or in uniform?
21 A. They were all in uniform. They were in
22 camouflage uniforms.
23 Q. What did Vinko Vidovic or Dragan Papic say to
24 you as you approached them?
25 A. They told me that I should go and see Slavko
1 Skoro to ask him for some sort of permission and
2 security in order to be able to return to my home.
3 Q. Did you understand why you would need
4 permission to return to your own home?
5 A. No, I didn't understand at all.
6 Q. Did you mention anything to Dragan Papic or
7 the other man with him about having seen your blocks
8 being used without your permission?
9 A. No, I didn't mention anything.
10 Q. Why didn't you confront them about that?
11 A. I didn't dare. We, down there, were like
13 Q. What do you mean, "convicts"?
14 A. My own wife was afraid, when I was on guard
15 duty just above the road, she was terrified that I went
16 there, leaving them alone. She said, "We're alone here
17 among them. They are wearing camouflage uniforms,
18 carrying weapons, and showing off with those weapons."
19 And simply we were there -- we didn't know what to do
20 -- like detainees.
21 Q. Did you go home despite the fact that you
22 were told you needed permission?
23 A. I went home, I spent the night. That night,
24 I protected the windows in case they would throw
25 anything inside; and in the morning, when we got up,
1 Dragan Papic and Vinko Vidovic, I was sitting with my
2 wife outside at a table in the yard, they came up to
3 me. What their intention was, I don't know. I just
4 know that Dragan had the fuse of a bomb because my wife
5 asked him what it was, and he said it was a fuse for a
6 bomb. And then Vinko Vidovic showed me a card
7 indicating that he was a member of a special unit, the
8 Jokers, and they were based in the Bungalow.
9 Then they asked us, "Why don't you monkeys,"
10 as they said, "surrender? What do they think?" And my
11 answer was "I don't know anything" because I wasn't
12 interested in any of it.
13 Later, I moved my wife from there for her
14 safety as well as the children to Bistricak and I moved
15 above the road among my people to continue keeping
16 watch duty.
17 Q. You mention that Dragan Papic, when he
18 visited you the next morning, had a bomb fuse. What
19 did it look like?
20 A. It looked like a -- like a stick, about this
21 size (indicating).
22 Q. You mention that Vinko Vidovic talked about
23 some sort of special unit at the Bungalow. Did he show
24 you anything to verify that?
25 A. He showed me -- I didn't ask him to show me
1 anything. He showed me a card that looked like an ID
2 card. I didn't take it into my hands, but he himself
3 told me that he belonged to a special unit, the unit
4 called Jokers in the Bungalow or the police.
5 Q. Did they say anything else to you in addition
6 to, "Why don't you monkeys surrender?" that you can
7 recall? I'm not asking you word for word. That would
8 be, I think, impossible, but just the general idea of
9 what they told you?
10 A. I do not remember.
11 Q. Do you recall them saying anything about
12 having protected your house from attack during the
13 incident that you had described earlier?
14 A. Yes, yes. When they approached, then they
15 said to me that they had tried, that their HVO soldiers
16 had tried to break into my house, and Dragan Papic
17 personally told me that it was a Croatian house, "Don't
18 touch it," because when I arrived, I could see the
19 imprint of soldiers' boots on the door when they had
20 tried to break in.
21 Q. Now, I think -- and this, I think, will be
22 the last question, with the permission of the Court, if
23 this is the time to stop.
24 You left the next day from your house after
25 this visit from Mr. Papic and Mr. Vidovic. Why did you
2 A. I left because I didn't feel safe. I wasn't
3 sure that they wouldn't do something to me, throw a
4 bomb or something, and so we had to leave our house.
5 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Mr. President, this may be an
6 appropriate time to stop, if the Court so wishes.
7 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. I gather you have a few
8 more questions.
9 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Yes. I will have questions
10 that will deal then with the attack on the 16th.
11 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. So we will
12 adjourn now.
13 --- Whereupon proceedings adjourned at
14 4.20 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,
15 the 27th day of August, 1998, at
16 9.30 a.m.