1 Thursday, 17th September 1998
2 (Open session)
3 (The accused entered the court)
4 --- Upon commencing at 8.35 a.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-95-16-T, the
6 Prosecutor versus Zoran Kupreskic, Mirjan Kupreskic,
7 Vlatko Kupreskic, Drago Josipovic, Dragan Papic,
8 Vladimir Santic, also known as "Vlado."
9 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Good morning.
10 Mr. Terrier?
11 MR. TERRIER: Good morning, Mr. President.
12 Good morning, Your Honours. First of all, pursuant to
13 what we said yesterday, we would, indeed, request that
14 we be able to discuss this important issue tomorrow,
15 the issue that was raised yesterday.
16 This morning we have a witness. The first
17 witness will be testifying in closed session with a
18 pseudonym, if the Defence has no objection to that.
19 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Mr. Terrier.
20 Although the issue of law is very important, I think it
21 is best that we decide tomorrow whether we should
22 finish our discussion on that issue or whether we
23 should finish first with the testimony of the
24 witnesses, because it would not be appropriate not to
25 finish with the testimony of the second witness. Let's
1 make that subordinate to the termination of the
2 testimony of the second witness. Otherwise, the
3 witness will be required to remain here during the
5 MR. TERRIER: Your Honour, I do not believe
6 we will have any problems finishing, perhaps, even this
8 JUDGE CASSESE: Very well.
9 (Closed session)
10 (The witness entered court)
13 Pages 2306 to 2335 redacted - in closed session
10 JUDGE CASSESE: We should probably take a
11 break now of 20 minutes. All right, 20 minutes.
12 --- Recess taken at 10.05 a.m.
13 --- On resuming at 10.35 a.m.
14 JUDGE CASSESE: So I see this is a protected
16 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Yes, Mr. President. This
17 would be Witness L.
18 (The witness entered court)
19 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning. Would you
20 please read the solemn declaration?
21 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
22 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the
24 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be
1 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Mr. President, I have handed
2 a piece of paper to the witness for him to view.
3 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 176.
5 JUDGE CASSESE: All right, Mr. Moskowitz.
6 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Thank you, Mr. President. I
7 understand we are in closed session now. I do not feel
8 that it is necessary to be in closed session at this
9 point, and that if we do come to a point in the
10 examination where that would be necessary, I would
11 request the Court at that time to go into closed
13 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
14 (Open session)
15 JUDGE CASSESE: We are in open session.
16 Examined by Mr. Moskowitz:
17 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Thank you, Mr. President.
18 Q. Good morning, witness, how are you today?
19 A. All right.
20 Q. I want to inform you that you have been
21 granted the protective measures that you have
22 requested, and that you will be referred to as Witness
23 L, and that your face is to be blocked so it cannot be
24 viewed outside this courtroom. And so you may feel
25 comfortable in providing testimony to the Tribunal
1 today. Do you understand that?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. If there comes a point in the examination
4 where you are required to testify to anything that
5 might identify you, then we will ask the Tribunal to go
6 into closed session, which would mean that your voice
7 would not leave this courtroom, so that you could then
8 feel free to continue that part of your testimony. Is
9 that clear to you and do you understand that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. To begin, could you tell us how old you are?
12 A. I was born in 1949.
13 Q. Now, could you tell us whether you have lived
14 in Ahmici, and if so, what year you arrived in the
15 village of Ahmici?
16 A. Yes. In '74, in '74.
17 Q. And did you live in Ahmici from 1974 until
18 April 1993?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. During that period of time did you live in
21 the same house or did you move from house to house?
22 A. In the same house.
23 Q. What part of the village of Ahmici did you
25 A. In Sadni Grabovi.
1 Q. And could you tell us who some of your Muslim
2 neighbours were in that neighbourhood?
3 A. Sakib Ahmic, Meho, Redzib Ahmic, Suad Zuda,
4 Vehbija, et cetera.
5 Q. Did you have any neighbours who were Bosnian
7 A. I did.
8 Q. Who were some of your close Croat
10 A. Vlatko Kupreskic, closest neighbour.
11 Q. And before we proceed, could you tell us
12 where you live now?
13 A. Now I live in Ahmici again.
14 Q. When did you move back to Ahmici?
15 A. Three months ago.
16 Q. And where in Ahmici did you move back to?
17 A. To a summer house, a summer kitchen.
18 Q. And is this summer kitchen near your former
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Could you describe how close the summer
22 kitchen is to your former house?
23 A. Five metres away.
24 Q. So would it be true to say that the
25 neighbours you had in 1993 are the neighbours you have
2 Let me rephrase that question. The Croatian
3 neighbours you had in 1993 are the Croatian neighbours
4 you have now?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, before the incident and the attack in
7 1993, could you describe the kind of relations that you
8 had with your Croatian neighbours, including Vlatko?
9 A. Good.
10 Q. Could you give us some examples of the kinds
11 of relations that you had with, for example, the
12 Kupreskic family in the years before the attack
13 in '93?
14 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry, the interpreter
15 didn't catch the answer.
16 MR. MOSKOWITZ:
17 Q. Would you repeat your answer, Witness L, so
18 that the interpreter can hear it?
19 A. Ivica Kupreskic and Gordana were the best man
20 and maid of honour at my wedding, so we have good
22 Q. Now, I want to direct your attention to April
23 15, 1993. That would be the day before the attack. Do
24 you remember what you were doing during that day and
25 where you were?
1 A. I was at Zume.
2 Q. And where is Zume?
3 A. Zume is further away from Santici. There is
4 a path there. I mean, it all belongs to Ahmici.
5 Q. What were you doing in Zume on April 15,
7 A. I was digging a septic tank, so I was
8 digging, working.
9 Q. And were you doing that most of the day that
11 A. I had been working for two days and that was
12 the third day.
13 Q. And on that day, after you were finished for
14 that day, that is April 15, did you return home?
15 A. Yes. Yes, I did.
16 Q. Can you give us an idea about when that was
17 when you returned home that day?
18 A. It was around 5.00 or 6.00 approximately.
19 Q. Was the sun still up or had the sun set at
20 the time that you left to go home?
21 A. No, no, it was pretty dark. No.
22 Q. Now, there is a blow-up map behind you. If
23 you could, without standing up, turn around in your
24 seat, if you can, and take a look at that map behind
25 you and see if you can recognise what that shows.
1 A. This is Vlatko Kupreskic's warehouse. This
2 is my house.
3 Q. Let me see if I can orient you a little bit.
4 Do you see where you were working on April 15, 1993 in
6 A. Somewhere around here.
7 JUDGE CASSESE: I see that some Defence
8 counsel can't see the picture, so I wonder whether
9 I could ask the usher to move it a little bit so they
10 can see the whole picture.
11 A. Over here, here. Here.
12 MR. MOSKOWITZ:
13 Q. And I know this may be difficult for you, not
14 being used to looking at these aerial photographs. And
15 if it's hard for you, please say so. Is it possible
16 for you to show us on that aerial photograph, if you
17 can, the route you took as you walked home that night
18 on April 15. And if you can't, just simply say so.
19 A. There is a small path that goes the other way
20 around the stadium from here. There is a stadium and a
21 meadow, and Stipan's house which is next to Vlatko's
22 house. That is the shortest road to Zume.
23 Q. I notice, as a landmark, you're pointing to a
24 white area on the map which is located towards the
25 right-hand side of that map, for purposes of the
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you see another large white area on the
4 map, located more towards the middle of the map?
5 A. This.
6 Q. You can use your pointer, yes. Does that
7 help you orient yourself in any way on this map?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. What is that white area that you've pointed
10 to in the middle of the map?
11 A. The cross-roads.
12 Q. And do you know who lived in that area?
13 A. Mostly Muslims lived there. Croats were on
14 the other side.
15 Q. And was your house located in that general
17 A. My house is here.
18 MR. MOSKOWITZ: At this time I would ask the
19 usher to show the next exhibit.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 177.
21 MR. MOSKOWITZ: And perhaps at this time,
22 Mr. President, it would be appropriate to go into
23 closed session because of the house identification.
24 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes.
25 THE REGISTRAR: We are in closed session.
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5 (Open session)
6 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Thank you, Mr. President.
7 Q. Could you look at that photograph, which is
8 marked Exhibit 33, and see if you can recognise that?
9 A. Yes. That's the big warehouse.
10 Q. Is that the warehouse that you walked in
11 front of on April 15, 1993?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Now, if you could use your pointer that's in
14 front of you, take that in your hand, and point to the
15 picture on the table, rather than the picture on the TV
16 screen, and show us where Vlatko Kupreskic was as you
17 walked past on that evening.
18 A. There was a bench here, and they were sitting
19 there (indicating). The big door was there. This
20 little house was not there then.
21 Q. Witness L, it would be very helpful to the
22 Tribunal if you could actually point to the picture on
23 the table next to you, rather than to the TV screen?
24 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Perhaps the usher can
1 A. This was where the bench was (indicating).
2 Q. If you could take a green marker, again, I
3 would ask the usher to assist, and place a circle, a
4 red marker would be fine, and place a circle where you
5 recall seeing Vlatko Kupreskic when you passed by on
6 April 15th.
7 A. (Marks)
8 Q. Witness L, where were you when you saw Vlatko
9 Kupreskic, if you could show us in that photograph,
10 again, using your pointer?
11 A. I passed by on my way home.
12 Q. Does that photograph show an area where you
13 were standing or walking as you saw Vlatko Kupreskic?
14 A. Just right by that warehouse.
15 Q. Could you use your pointer to show us where
16 you were in that photograph?
17 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Again, if the usher could
19 A. (Indicating). There, up towards Upper
20 Ahmici, Gornji Ahmici.
21 Q. For the purposes of the record, then, you're
22 pointing to that paved area in front of the shop; would
23 that be accurate?
24 A. Yes. That's where the road to Ahmici leads,
25 up, and there was a parking lot there.
1 Q. Now, you said that there were some men also
2 in the area. Where were they when you passed by the
4 A. They were inside, inside in the warehouse.
5 The doors were always open.
6 Q. Now, next to this warehouse, there seems to
7 be a newer or another structure attached to that. This
8 would be on the extreme right of the picture. Do you
9 know what that is?
10 A. Yes. It's bigger now. It was made after,
11 during the war.
12 Q. Is this, then, an extension or an addition to
13 the original shop that was --
14 A. Yes, that's right. Yes, yes, it's an
15 extension along with the shop.
16 Q. Was that extension there in 1993 when you
17 walked past the shop that day?
18 A. No, no. No, it wasn't.
19 MR. MOSKOWITZ: I would also, at this time,
20 ask that the witness be shown previously admitted
21 Prosecution Exhibit 32.
22 A. That's Vlatko's house, the new one.
23 Q. Now, you said earlier that you saw some
24 soldiers in Vlatko's house. Could you, again, use your
25 pointer and, with the assistance of the usher,
1 demonstrate to us where in or around Vlatko's house you
2 saw those soldiers.
3 A. Up on the first balcony. Here, on the
4 balcony, the first balcony (indicating).
5 Q. That would be the lower balcony?
6 A. Yes, here (indicating).
7 Q. Thank you. Did you then proceed on home that
8 evening, on April 15th, to your house?
9 A. Yes, I did.
10 Q. What did you do that night?
11 A. I went home and went to bed until 12.00 and
12 had my guard shift afterwards until 2.00.
13 Q. What do you mean by "my guard shift"?
14 A. They were village guards patrolling the
15 village, village watches.
16 Q. Did you, in fact, assist in patrolling the
17 village that evening?
18 A. Yes, I did, from 12.00 to 2.00.
19 Q. Did you have any arms with you or weapons?
20 A. Yes. I had my own pistol.
21 Q. Were you alone or did you have a partner?
22 A. A refugee was with me.
23 Q. Was he armed or was he unarmed?
24 A. No. They were civilians. No. In fact, we
25 were all civilians.
1 Q. Did you tell anyone what you had seen earlier
2 that evening, the soldiers in Vlatko's house?
3 A. I told Ivo Berberica that there was a sort of
4 army, but that wasn't my affair. That was a
6 Q. What response did you get from the person
7 that you informed? Do you remember?
8 A. Well, he said that it wasn't my affair and
9 that there was the command and that it was their
11 Q. Did you see anything unusual during the two
12 hours that you were walking around the village on the
13 evening of the 15th and the morning of the 16th?
14 A. We didn't see anything strange. We didn't
15 think there was any danger.
16 Q. Could you tell us what you recall now on the
17 morning of April 16, 1993? If you need to refer to any
18 names of family members -- let me put it this way. You
19 do not need to refer to any names of family members.
20 Do you understand?
21 A. Yes, yes, I do. The road went to Sukrija
22 Ahmic's. There was a detonation, gunfire, and they
23 said that a bomb would be thrown, to leave the house.
24 Then Sukrija was killed first.
25 Q. Did you see that?
1 A. I didn't see that. A neighbour of mine, a
2 woman, saw it. We went out of the window, not the
4 Q. And that is out of the window of your house?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. In which direction did you run or go?
7 A. Towards Upper Ahmici.
8 Q. Did something happen to you as you ran
9 towards Upper Ahmici from your house?
10 A. I was wounded in my left arm by Suheta's
11 (phoen) house.
12 Q. I'm sorry. I didn't catch that last part of
13 the testimony. You were wounded in your left arm.
14 Then what did you say?
15 A. Yes. A neighbour bandaged it up for me, a
16 woman, and we continued on our way.
17 Q. Were you separated from the rest of your
18 family during this time?
19 A. Yes, I was. They were in Nermin's house.
20 Q. Where did you go after you were injured?
21 Where did you run to?
22 A. To the village of Vrhovine.
23 Q. Did you become reunited with your family at
24 some point?
25 A. Yes, at Vrhovine in the morning.
1 Q. Were they okay? Were they all right?
2 A. Yes, they were.
3 Q. Do you know what happened to your house?
4 A. It was burnt down, as well as Mina Sukrija's,
5 Redzep's, and Sesko's. I saw that straight away.
6 Q. When did you see those houses burning?
7 A. When I went up the hill, they started to
9 Q. When you say "they started to burn," who do
10 you mean by "they"?
11 A. The Croats.
12 Q. Were you able to recognise any of those
13 Croats on the day of the 16th?
14 A. No. No, I didn't.
15 Q. Were you able to tell where the firing was
16 coming from that injured you?
17 A. From below Adem Ahmic's house on the
18 left-hand side, and Redzib Ahmic, whichever you prefer
19 to call it.
20 Q. After you became reunited with your family,
21 where did you then go?
22 A. I went to Zenica.
23 Q. Did you receive treatment for your injuries
24 in Zenica?
25 A. Yes. I had an x-ray. I was given
1 injections. I was given some tablets in the hospital
2 on three occasions, and then I had to do some exercises
3 in Zenica, rehabilitation.
4 Q. Now, we've talked briefly about Vlatko
5 Kupreskic and your seeing him in front of the shop that
6 day on the 15th. How long had you known Vlatko
7 Kupreskic before that day?
8 A. Since 1974.
9 Q. Since you moved into Ahmici?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. How often had you seen Vlatko Kupreskic
12 during that period of time, from '74 to '93?
13 A. Every day, every single day. I always used
14 to pass by there. Just when we were at work we didn't
15 see each other.
16 Q. Did you and Vlatko have good relations?
17 A. Yes, yes. With all the Croats we had good
19 Q. Now, in 1974, I take it Vlatko was still a
20 fairly young person?
21 A. Yes. He went to third and fourth class at
23 Q. How did you know that?
24 A. Because I was there.
25 Q. You were there? What do you mean?
1 A. Well, my house is close by. I knew the
2 family, Branka, Vlatko, and Jadranka, all of them.
3 Branka, I think, is the oldest, the daughter. He is
4 an only son.
5 Q. Were you aware that Vlatko Kupreskic had an
6 operation when he was a child, on his heart?
7 A. Yes. He went to the military medical academy
8 in Belgrade.
9 Q. During the period of time that you saw him,
10 almost on a daily basis since he was a child, did you
11 notice whether or not he had any physical problems
12 resulting from either that operation or any other
13 medical problem?
14 A. No. While he went to school, he didn't have
15 any health problems. He was healthy after the
16 operation, just like other children.
17 Q. As he grew up to be a young man, did you
18 notice whether he had any physical problems at that
20 A. No, he didn't. He went to the economic
21 school, school of economics.
22 MR. MOSKOWITZ: May I have a moment,
23 Mr. President?
24 I have no more questions, Mr. President.
25 Thank you.
1 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Mr. Moskowitz.
2 Counsel Pavkovic, the usual question.
3 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, if you intend
4 to make a pause now, I would like to ask you to do so,
5 actually, so that Defence counsel can discuss the
6 matter of cross-examination.
7 JUDGE CASSESE: Actually, we intended to take
8 a break at 12.00, but I understand that it's better for
9 you to break now for 20 minutes? Is that sufficient,
10 20 minutes? All right, 20 minutes.
11 MR. PAVKOVIC: Thank you.
12 --- Recess taken at 11.20 a.m.
13 --- On resuming at 11:42 a.m.
14 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Moskowitz.
15 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Yes, Mr. President, thank
16 you. I neglected to tender enter into evidence the two
17 exhibits, Exhibit 176, which we request to be under
18 seal, and then 177. Thank you.
19 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Yes. Counsel
21 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, I can inform
22 you that the witness will be questioned by counsel
23 Borislav Krajina. Thank you.
24 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
25 (The witness entered court)
1 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Krajina.
2 Cross-examined by Mr. Krajina:
3 MR. KRAJINA: Thank you, Your Honours. I'll
4 try and use up as little time as possible.
5 Q. Witness L, would you please tell me whether
6 you see in this courtroom Vlatko Kupreskic?
7 A. Yes, I do.
8 Q. Where is he sitting?
9 A. On the right. He has a tie, and is sitting
10 on the right.
11 Q. Thank you. You talked today about the health
12 of Vlatko Kupreskic?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. I'd like to ask you whether you had any
15 health problems in your life so far?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Were you ever treated anywhere?
18 A. No, I wasn't.
19 Q. In no medical institution?
20 A. In 1991 I had a car -- I had an accident and
21 I was in hospital for 15 days.
22 Q. What kind of accident?
23 A. Turbe. The accident was in Turbe.
24 Q. What kind of injuries did you have?
25 A. I had injuries on my left leg.
1 Q. Did you have any other injuries?
2 A. No, I was just wounded.
3 Q. But not on that occasion?
4 A. No. No other injuries on that occasion.
5 Q. I asked you that because I heard that you had
6 some health problems of a different nature.
7 A. Well, I was hot when I had a bath and I was a
8 little ill but it was nothing dangerous.
9 Q. Where did you have a bath? Where were you --
10 did you go for treatment anywhere?
11 A. No.
12 Q. You didn't go to the doctor?
13 A. No. Well, I went to Vitez. It was a lady
15 Q. Yes. And what did she prescribe?
16 A. She didn't prescribe anything. She just said
17 that I should relax my legs a little bit and that there
18 was no danger.
19 Q. How long did you spend with this --
20 A. No, I just went that one day. I went back
21 home, and I went back to work afterwards.
22 Q. And you didn't go to a doctor after that ever
24 A. No, never again.
25 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us, please, what day
1 it was and what time it was on the day that you passed
2 through by the shop of Vlatko Kupreskic and when you
3 saw him there as you described to us today?
4 A. It was about 5.00 or 6.00.
5 Q. What day was it?
6 A. I don't know what day it was exactly.
7 Q. You don't know the day. Very well. What was
8 the weather like?
9 A. Well, it was nice.
10 Q. Nice weather, you say. Was visibility good?
11 A. Yes, it was. You could see a little bit. It
12 was dusk. It was April, you know, and days are short
13 in April.
14 Q. Very well. Could you please tell us whether
15 you made statements earlier on that it was around 4.00
16 p.m. in the afternoon, that you once said that it was
17 4.00 p.m., and on another occasion you said that it was
18 7.00 p.m. Just let me finish my question, please, and
19 you can give us your answer. And today you state that
20 it was about 5.00 or 6.00 in the afternoon.
21 I'm just asking you whether you said, earlier
22 on, that it was 4.00 p.m. on one occasion and another
23 occasion that you said it was 7.00 p.m.
24 A. Well, I said it was getting dark. I don't
25 know what the exact time was, and it's not essential
1 whether it was 4.00 or 5.00.
2 Q. Well, you leave that up to us to decide
3 whether it's essential or not. I'm just asking you
4 whether you said on two occasions once that it was at
5 4.00 p.m. and one that it was 7.00 p.m. You just tell
6 me yes or no.
7 A. Yes, I did say that.
8 Q. You did say that.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Very well. Thank you. I don't know whether
11 this is a difficult question for you, but I would like
12 to ask you whether you know what the time is now.
13 A. It's quarter to twelve. It's noon.
14 Q. Noon, you say?
15 A. Yes, noon.
16 Q. Well, thank you. The next thing I want you
17 to tell us who sat with Vlatko Kupreskic at the moment
18 you appeared from work and saw him in front of the
20 A. Vlatko Kupreskic, Ivica, and Emir Vidovic.
21 Q. Thank you. We can see that in the transcript
22 it does not say that the witness said that Mirko
23 Vidovic was there. It says "Emir". It was Mirko
24 Vidovic, for the transcript. Mirko Vidovic. Thank
1 Would you clarify the situation a little bit
2 and tell us where those individuals were, the
3 individuals that you mentioned were with Vlatko sitting
4 in front of the shop?
5 A. Well, in the hall.
6 Q. What did you say?
7 A. In front of the hall.
8 Q. Were they all in front of the hall?
9 A. No. Some were inside, but I don't know who
10 these were.
11 Q. Who was inside, who was outside?
12 A. I don't know who was inside, but three people
13 were outside and two people that I didn't know. There
14 were five of them outside. Two of them I didn't know.
15 There were five outside, two were unknown to me. The
16 three are -- I knew, and inside --
17 Q. How many people were inside?
18 A. About ten. There were about ten people
20 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us how you managed
21 to count them?
22 A. Well, that is why I said approximately.
24 Q. Well, were they in the hall? Did you go into
25 the hall?
1 A. Well, you can see from outside. There is a
2 big door which is always open.
3 Q. What were they doing inside?
4 A. They were talking. They were discussing
5 something. They were drinking something, talking
7 Q. Thank you. Yes. Thank you. Would you
8 please tell us whether, in your previous statements,
9 the statements that you made earlier on, did you state
10 that everything that happened in front of the shop that
11 you saw this in front of Vlatko's house? Did you say
12 in front of house?
13 A. No, in front of Vlatko's shop.
14 Q. I'm asking you, in your previous statements
15 did you state that all this happened in front of his
17 A. No, I didn't, no.
18 Q. No, you didn't. Thank you.
19 Will you tell us once again, clearly, whether
20 you drank beer with those individuals and with Vlatko
21 in front of the shop?
22 A. No. In Zume I had three cognacs where I
24 Q. When did you drink cognac?
25 A. On my way home.
1 Q. Three cognacs. How big were those cognacs?
2 A. Well, you know the small glasses. Well,
3 three small glasses of cognac.
4 Q. Do you usually drink alcohol?
5 A. Well, sometimes. Sometimes.
6 Q. Were you ever a drunk?
7 A. Well, when I was a young man, yes.
8 Q. When was that when you were younger?
9 A. Well, when I was 25, 30. And I don't mind a
10 drop or two even now.
11 Q. Well, that's all right then.
12 Could you tell us whether, in your previous
13 statements, you stated that in front of Vlatko
14 Kupreskic's house you drank with him and with the
15 individuals who were in front of the house, whether you
16 drank beer?
17 A. No, I did not.
18 Q. Thank you. Well, I just have a little bit
19 longer. I don't want to tire you too much.
20 You said today that you saw, on the
21 balcony --
22 A. Yes, that's right.
23 Q. -- on the first floor--
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. -- of Vlatko Kupreskic's house, on the
1 occasion when you were going home from work --
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. -- about 30 individuals --
4 A. Yes, yes.
5 Q. -- on the balcony?
6 A. Yes, on the balcony.
7 Q. What did these people look like?
8 A. Well, they had black and white uniform,
9 military uniform.
10 Q. Black?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. How did you notice that it was a summer
14 A. Well, there are summer uniforms and winter
16 Q. What do winter uniforms look like?
17 A. They're thicker.
18 Q. Well, thicker. You saw this from the road?
19 A. Well, the road is not very far from his
20 house, you know.
21 Q. Well, can you differentiate whether somebody
22 is wearing a thicker uniform or a lighter uniform?
23 A. Yes, you can quite clearly. Yes, you can.
24 Q. You can? Very well then.
25 I apologise for having to ask you the
1 following question, but could you please tell me,
2 looking round the courtroom here, how many people there
3 are? Just look around you.
4 A. Well, about 25 to 30 I would say.
5 Q. Twenty-five to thirty. Thank you.
6 Your Honours, I would like to tender in
7 evidence the statement of this witness of the 2nd of
8 February, 1995; and the written notes of the Prosecutor
9 on his talks with this witness, dated the 4th of
10 August, 1998.
11 Thank you. I have no further questions.
12 JUDGE CASSESE: No objections?
13 MR. MOSKOWITZ: We have no objection.
14 JUDGE CASSESE: No objection from the
15 Prosecution. It is admitted into evidence.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Defence Exhibit D/13.
17 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Puliselic?
18 MR. PULISELIC: Mr. President, I would like
19 to make an objection in the sense that this statement
20 be taken into account in the part in which it refers to
21 Vlatko Kupreskic because, otherwise, it makes mention
22 of other things.
23 JUDGE CASSESE: Is there any objection from
24 the Prosecution?
25 MR. MOSKOWITZ: I think the Prosecution feels
1 that if the statement is going to be admitted, it
2 should be admitted into its entirety, otherwise --
3 JUDGE CASSESE: But on the other hand -- it
4 is true, but Counsel Puliselic is stating that there is
5 one part of that statement relating to the accused
6 Dragan Papic, and if it is admitted into evidence --
7 and there was no examination-in-chief on that
8 particular part. I think it's quite sensible to admit
9 this document into evidence, except for the part
10 relating to -- only for the part relating to Vlatko
12 MR. MOSKOWITZ: And I think we feel the Court
13 is fully capable of making those distinctions.
14 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. So we will not
15 take into account any part which does not relate -- any
16 part which relates to people other than Vlatko
17 Kupreskic. So your request, Counsel Puliselic, has been upheld.
18 Thank you.
19 Any re-examination?
20 MR. MOSKOWITZ: No, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. So there is no
22 objection to the witness being released?
23 Witness L, thank you for giving evidence in
24 court. You may now be released.
25 (The witness withdrew)
1 JUDGE CASSESE: Now, I see that we are short
2 of witnesses, and the -- not even for tomorrow. So can
3 we think of, in future, of having a list of witnesses
4 plus, say, one or two reserve witnesses as it were, so
5 that we don't run out of witnesses?
6 MR. MOSKOWITZ: I think that is a very good
7 suggestion. And we try to do that, and sometimes times
8 we simply do not anticipate accurately how quickly
9 things can move, and perhaps this is a good sign for
10 the future.
11 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Thank you.
12 Now, before we adjourn, let me discuss one or
13 two points with you -- raise one or two points.
14 First of all, we have -- now, we are doing
15 some planning, and we understand that it is most likely
16 that the Prosecution will close their case by the 16th
17 of October. Probably even earlier, as we hope.
18 MR. MOSKOWITZ: We anticipate so.
19 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. In any case, not after
20 the 16th of October. Now, you may remember that we
21 have now a new Rule, Rule 73 ter, on pre-Defence
22 conference, stating that prior to the commencement by
23 the Defence of its case, the Trial Chamber may hold a
24 conference, and we intend to hold that conference, this
25 pre-Defence conference, and that conference, the Trial
1 Chamber may order that the Defence file the following,
2 and there are various things, submissions by the
3 parties of matters which are not in dispute, statement
4 of contested matters, effect and law, and list of
6 So we intend to hold this conference the very
7 same day when the Prosecution finish their case, but we
8 would be very happy if that, say, on the 15th or 16th
9 of October, if at that stage you could already come
10 with a list of witnesses, so that -- and then at that
11 stage we would have a rough idea of how many days,
12 working days, you need, and then later on you will
13 provide, within the time limit we will establish, the
14 summary of the facts.
15 We have already a list of witnesses for
16 Vlatko Kupreskic, 20, I think.
17 JUDGE MAY: Ten.
18 JUDGE CASSESE: Oh, wonderful. Even better.
20 MR. KRAJINA: Mr. President, perhaps we did
21 not understand each other. We gave this number of
22 witnesses. They are, for the most part, Muslims, which
23 we considered at the time there was the fear that
24 contacting them -- that doesn't mean that -- we do have
25 more witnesses in addition to those that we already
1 mentioned, because those are only the ones that we
2 considered ought to be protected in some way.
3 JUDGE CASSESE: But I was corrected by my
4 colleagues, there's a list of ten witnesses. I was
5 wrong in saying 20. Ten, plus probably other
6 witnesses. Counsel Pavkovic?
7 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, it seems, by
8 the reactions of my colleagues, that we could not
9 comply with that request first, because by the 16th we
10 shall be still here. We shall be here.
11 Second, we're going to call the witnesses for
12 which we consider that they should be called after the
13 Prosecutor completes his part of the business, and
14 we'll probably give up calling some witnesses if we
15 consider them -- that it would be superfluous to bring
16 them here, and we if don't wish to go against the
17 Prosecution's assertions.
18 After we complete this part of the hearing,
19 we will have to go and see who we're going to bring,
20 which witnesses we're going to bring. Our list will
21 necessarily, therefore, have to be revised, and for
22 that reason, objectively speaking, we're not going to
23 be able to comply with this request if it were posed in
24 such a way. So we're going to ask to be given some
25 time, and bearing in mind your requests to speed up
1 proceedings and to be as efficient as possible, and
2 we'll be informing you forthwith about the list of
4 I think I share the opinions of my colleagues
5 when I say this.
6 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I do appreciate
7 your points, but we were thinking of a tentative list
8 which would not be binding, a rough list, say, 50 or 70
9 or 80 or 120, just to give us a rough idea and to do
10 some planning, because we have other cases to deal
11 with. As I say, then you may drop some witnesses. You
12 may not even give us the list of names, but I think it
13 would be helpful. But if you are not in a position to
14 give us even a rough list, all right, then we will do
15 without that. In any case, we intend to hold this
16 pre-Defence conference, as I say, when the Prosecution
17 finishes their case. This was one point.
18 The second point is that we are making plans,
19 hoping that security will be provided, to go to Bosnia
20 to visit Ahmici. We would like to go there on Monday,
21 the 19th of October, so as soon as the Prosecution case
22 is over. We understand that we would probably need
23 three days.
24 I understand, also, for budgetary reasons,
25 the Tribunal would cover -- Chambers would cover all
1 the expenses of the Judges, and probably the
2 Prosecution should see whether they can find money.
3 Probably the registry will cover the expenses of
4 Defence counsel, but I assume that not all Defence
5 counsel need to be there. It is important that some of
6 them be there so that we may make sure that both
7 parties are present while we visit the village. Again,
8 make plans so that around the 19th, 20th of October,
9 we'll go there for one day, one full day, plus, of
10 course, travel.
11 Since Defence counsel insist on having four
12 weeks, I've forgotten my diary, but I think we could
13 start on the 23rd -- have you got your diary? It's a
14 Monday, around the 20th of November. Actually, I
15 realise that if we go on until the 18th of December
16 when we intend to finish, Defence counsel would have
17 four weeks. So we are wondering whether the Defence
18 could see whether four weeks would be sufficient,
19 because ideally -- we don't want to force you.
20 Ideally, we could also close the Defence case before
21 Christmas, and maybe if we need time, we might then in
22 January have the closing statements, the final
23 submissions of both parties. This, again, is in the
24 interests of the accused, of a speedy trial. As I say,
25 this is simply to make some plans, not to force the
1 parties to rush.
2 Counsel Radovic?
3 MR. RADOVIC: Mr. President, I see that you
4 have planned all of that very nicely to end the trial
5 as soon as possible. However, I have to inform you
6 that we are going to tender an expert opinion with the
7 registry and with the Prosecution, too. I imagine that
8 the Prosecutor is going to protest strongly. Of
9 course, if the other side opposes something that an
10 expert witness says, and this expert opinion has to be
11 provided at least 30 days earlier before it is
12 presented as testimony, I'm afraid that the presence of
13 our experts at this Court is going to change your plans
15 I mean, the number of witnesses, we will
16 probably be able to give you a tentative figure on
17 that. But this expertise that we are planning will
18 certainly require the appearance of this expert here in
19 The Hague and to be cross-examined by the Prosecutor,
20 and also we will be examining the expert witness a
21 bit. So you can count on the fact that it won't really
22 be possible to finish by the 18th of December, because
23 we could not finish this expertise before we finally
24 questioned a certain witness.
25 JUDGE CASSESE: All right.
1 MR. RADOVIC: So, perhaps, you should count
2 on that too, that we also have some surprises too.
3 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, one more
4 question which we should not neglect, by any means.
5 All of us can stay here for a period of up to 30 days,
6 according to the visas we have, so not a single one can
7 stay for longer than 30 days. So that question will
8 have to be settled too. We're going to try to settle
9 this matter while we're still here in The Hague, but it
10 doesn't depend on us, of course, because a stay up to
11 30 days is what we are allowed in one stretch.
12 It is the 14th, and if nothing changes, we
13 can stay only until the 13th of October. We have to
14 leave the country by the 13th of October.
15 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. Well, we will ask
16 the Registrar to take all the necessary measures to
17 ensure that you are allowed to stay on until the 16th
18 of October. It's a Friday. We hope that the
19 Prosecution will be a bit quicker. I don't know
20 whether they are going to produce any surprise, I
21 mean, to come up with surprises.
22 As for the expert witnesses, may I insist
23 that, in any case, Rule 94 bis should be complied with
24 and applied by the Defence, as well as the
25 Prosecution. This Rule 94 bis, testimony of expert
1 witnesses, was drafted precisely to avoid any delay in
2 the proceedings. Of course, I agree with Counsel
3 Radovic, if the other party is not going to accept the
4 expert testimony, then the expert witness must be
5 called and give evidence in court.
6 I wonder whether there are any other matters
7 to be raised?
8 Counsel Krajina?
9 MR. KRAJINA: Your Honour, I was thinking of
10 raising an issue or, rather, presenting a proposal in
11 relation to our trip to Ahmici, the one you've been
12 planning. I think that our opinion, that is to say, my
13 opinion and the opinion of my other colleagues, is that
14 before we go, we submit a brief to the Court as to what
15 we, as the Defence, consider to be particularly
16 noteworthy for the Court. That is to say, what the
17 Judges should particularly pay attention to while they
18 are there, what they should especially look at while
19 they are there, and what they should particularly take
20 note of, which would be in the interest of these
21 proceedings. Thank you.
22 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. We agree. It would be
23 extremely helpful, and, of course, if the Prosecution
24 could do likewise, so much the better. We already have
25 our own ideas and impressions, but we would welcome
1 briefs from both parties.
2 Tomorrow, we may start a bit later. There's
3 no need to rush and to start at 8.30, so we propose to
4 start at 9.30. We will finish when it is necessary,
5 because then we will have to write the ruling after
6 hearing both parties. As I say, I will start with the
7 Defence counsel, if they want to set out their points,
8 or if they want the Prosecution first to make their
9 points and then respond, that's fine with us. The
10 important thing is that both parties should set out
11 their views, and we can then decide afterwards.
12 Before adjourning, since one of the
13 Prosecutors comes from a civil law country and all
14 Defence counsel come, also, from civil law countries,
15 let me raise one issue with you. I know that,
16 probably, it's merely academic, and I apologise to my
17 colleagues, because I didn't discuss this matter before
18 with them and, indeed, tell them that I would raise
19 this issue.
20 I noticed during the testimony of Witness L
21 that one of the accused, Vlatko Kupreskic, was showing
22 his incredulity, and it was very clear that he didn't
23 agree at all with what the witness was saying about him
24 being there and so on. In our countries, this is a
25 typical case where the accused may be asked by the
1 Defence or by the Court to make a statement so as to
2 controvert immediately what the witness is saying.
3 In my own country where now the common law
4 system has been adopted, we have two different
5 approaches to this matter. The witness who is here can
6 give his testimony under oath only in his own defence
7 and normally at the request of the Defence and, I
8 think, also, at the request of the Court. Then he has
9 to tell the truth, because he has to take an oath.
10 This is what we also have in my own country.
11 In addition, we also have the possibility for
12 the accused to make, what we call, "voluntary statements"
13 where he does not have to take an oath, and he can, at
14 any time, tell the Court what he thinks about, say, the
15 particular testimony. Of course, this is of immense
16 value to the Court, because the Court may immediately
17 compare the two statements, that of the witness and
18 that of the accused.
19 Now, I discussed, in general terms, this
20 matter with my colleagues. Of course, we have
21 particular constraints here because of our system, but
22 we can probably find a way. Of course, I think that
23 with the agreement of the parties, to the extent that
24 we don't infringe on the Statute and our Rules of
25 Procedures and Evidence, we might move forward and even
1 take a path which is closer to the civil law system,
2 take up the best elements of the civil law system. Of
3 course, we would need the agreement of the parties,
4 even of Mr. Moskowitz, who is, of course, sceptical
5 because of his cultural background. Just for your
7 I think we also have to ponder this matter
8 which is difficult, tricky, and, of course, has
9 implications, but I think we should bear it in mind and
10 see whether we can find some way. Because today, as I
11 say, this was a vivid case, a telling case, where the
12 contribution of an accused might have been of great
13 importance to the conduct of our proceedings.
14 Now, my personal view is that, for instance,
15 the accused, if he gives testimony at the request of
16 the Court, for instance, would not be bound by Rule 90,
17 where it is said that: "A witness may object to making
18 any statement which might tend to incriminate the
19 witness. The Chamber may, however, compel the witness
20 to answer the question." To my mind, the witness, the
21 accused, if he gives testimony in court, has a basic
22 right not to incriminate himself. Therefore, he has a
23 right to refuse to respond. So I would not apply this
24 Rule 90F in this particular case, but this is my
25 personal view, and we have to discuss this matter.
1 As I say, let us try to see whether we could
2 improve upon our system and make it more efficient and
3 more consonant with the interests of justice.
4 I apologise for this long-winded discussion
5 of procedural matters. I think we can now adjourn, and
6 we will reconvene tomorrow at 9.30, probably for one
7 hour, not more than one hour. Thank you. We will find
8 the list of witnesses, I hope, tomorrow.
9 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Yes, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
12 12.17 p.m. to be reconvened on Friday,
13 the 18th day of September, 1998 at
14 9.30 a.m.