1 Tuesday, 29th September, 1998
2 (The accused entered court)
3 (Closed session)
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.
13 Pages 3249 to 3318 redacted in closed session
1 --- On resuming at 2.03 p.m.
2 (The witness entered court)
6 (Open session)
7 MR. MOSKOWITZ:
8 Q. Good afternoon, Witness Y.
9 THE INTERPRETER: There is a technical
10 problem. There is a technical problem. Two booths
11 cannot hear the floor, the English and the B/C/S booth
12 cannot hear anything from the floor.
13 The B/C/S booth can now, but the English
14 booth cannot hear anything.
15 Could counsel say something now? I think
16 it's sorted out.
17 MR. MOSKOWITZ:
18 Q. Yes. Good afternoon, Witness Y.
19 A. Good day.
20 Q. There has been a slight delay because of a
21 technical problem, but I think we can now proceed.
22 At this time, I would ask the usher to
23 display the next Prosecution Exhibit which is identical
24 to the exhibit that has already been tendered by the
25 Defence yesterday, D9-2.
1 We don't have copies for anyone because it's
2 exactly the same as was tendered yesterday, so there's
3 no difference, and the only reason we're using this
4 instead of the Defence Exhibit is because we are going
5 to do a little marking on it.
6 THE REGISTRAR: So this map will then be
7 marked Prosecution Exhibit 227.
8 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Thank you.
9 Q. Now, Witness Y, could you look at that
10 exhibit, which is number 227, and tell us generally
11 what that shows.
12 A. In principal it shows the deployment of
13 forces, of all three forces, that is; that is to say,
14 the army, the HVO, and the Chetnik forces.
15 Q. Now, we have talked throughout this trial
16 about the front in Turbe and the front in Visoko.
17 Could you show us where those two fronts are on that
18 map, perhaps using the pointer which is in front of
20 A. Turbe (indicating), Visoko (indicating).
21 Q. I think Defence counsel may have had a hard
22 time seeing that. Is it possible to sit and point at
23 the same time?
24 A. Turbe (indicating). I think that this is
25 Visoko over here. It doesn't say so on the map, but I
1 think that it's there.
2 Q. Now, along the fronts, you see red lines and
3 blue lines. Tell us first what those red lines
5 A. The Chetnik forces. The blue lines are the
6 BH army forces. And over here, there are HVO forces, a
7 little bit, and here too (indicating).
8 Q. So according to this map, there were some HVO
9 forces along the frontline with the Chetniks?
10 A. Yes, as you can see, but very few.
11 Q. Does the map indicate where the majority of
12 HVO forces were during this time period which is marked
13 on the map December '92 and January '93?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Where does this map indicate that the
16 majority of the HVO forces were located?
17 A. (Indicating). The Lasva Valley.
18 Q. Now, you've already told us about the 325th
19 command. Does this map indicate the presence of the
20 325th command, and if so, can you find it for us?
21 A. The command of the 325th was located in
22 Kruscica, over here, exactly over here (indicating).
23 Q. Is there a symbol there that indicates that
24 this was, in fact, a command rather than a manned
1 A. Yes. The little triangle here, and what you
2 see up here above. At any rate, this triangle depicts
3 the exact location of the command.
4 Q. Now, it says, next to that Kruscica with the
5 triangle, it says 1/325. What does that mean?
6 A. That means that the command of the 1st
7 battalion of the 325th brigade was also there.
8 Q. Now, can you find the 2nd battalion of the
9 325th brigade on that map, and tell us where it is, if
10 you find it?
11 A. In Preocica (indicating).
12 Q. Was that also a command, or was it a manned
14 A. Only the command of the battalion. I'm
15 sorry. Perhaps -- could I elaborate on it a bit?
16 Q. Yes. Please go ahead.
17 A. It wasn't the entire command that was in
18 these locations, only part of the command of the
19 battalion, because another part of the command of the
20 battalion was with our fighters who were on the
21 frontline at Turbe and in Visoko. As far as manpower
22 is concerned, there were five to seven men, up to a
23 maximum of ten altogether.
24 Q. Now, can you find the village of Loncari on
25 this map and Nadioci?
1 A. Nadioci, Loncari (indicating).
2 Q. Can you see a blue circle next to Loncari?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. What does that blue circle signify?
5 A. I think that Ahmici, the village of Ahmici,
6 is somewhere around here, and as a symbol on the map,
7 it doesn't mean a thing to me.
8 Q. Do you see other blue circles on that map
9 that are empty?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Do you know what those empty blue circles
13 A. No.
14 Q. Do you see blue circles that are not empty
15 that have symbols in them?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. What do they symbolise?
18 A. I think that these abbreviations symbolise
19 how strong the unit was. Over here, we have an
20 abbreviation saying "V" standing for "Vod" which is
22 Q. Would that signify to you that stationed in
23 that circle with the "V" would be, in fact, a platoon
24 of soldiers?
25 A. I think so, yes.
1 Q. Now, tell us about some of the symbols that
2 you see in that map that are, in fact, in the Lasva
3 Valley but that are red?
4 A. I don't see any red signs in the Lasva
6 Q. Do you see any symbols for weapons?
7 A. I do.
8 Q. Would you point them out for us and tell us
9 what they symbolise?
10 A. These two symbols are anti-aircraft guns.
11 This symbol is a launcher. This too. This is also the
12 symbol for a particular piece, but I'm not sure which
13 one (indicating).
14 Q. Do these symbols for these weapons indicate
15 to which army these weapons belong?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. According to this map, which army possessed
18 those weapons?
19 A. HVO.
20 Q. Would you take the green marker there in
21 front of you and circle for us some of those HVO
22 weapons that are placed on that map in and around the
23 Lasva Valley, and as you do so, tell us what you're
25 A. This is an anti-aircraft gun (indicating).
1 Likewise. This is a launcher (indicating). The last
2 two I circled were mortars. I think that's it.
3 Q. Now, do you see any symbols for checkpoints
4 in the Lasva Valley?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. What does the symbol for the checkpoint look
8 A. A circle, and in one circle there is a letter
9 "P" written in black.
10 Q. What would that letter "P" signify?
11 A. ^ "Punkt" which is "checkpoint."
12 Q. Would these be red checkpoints or blue
14 A. Red.
15 Q. And therefore which side had those
17 A. HVO.
18 Q. Could you circle the checkpoints that you see
19 in the Lasva Valley, please?
20 A. The checkpoint Dubravica, its precise
21 location is the railway station. Checkpoint at
22 Puticevo; that is as you go out of Novi Travnik. There
23 are more of them here, but I only know of these two,
24 and I saw them personally.
25 Q. You've also mentioned some villages during
1 the course of your testimony. If I read them off, can
2 you find them on the map and underline them for us?
3 Kovacevac, and underline them using your green.
4 A. (Marks)
5 Q. And Strane?
6 A. (Marks)
7 Q. And Rovna?
8 A. (Marks)
9 Q. And Loncari?
10 A. (Marks)
11 Q. Pezici, if you can find it?
12 A. They're not on the map, but they're somewhere
13 around here.
14 Q. Same general area?
15 A. Yes, yes, over here (indicating).
16 Q. And Merdani?
17 A. I don't think it's here on the map.
18 Q. Would it be in the same general area as the
19 other villages you've underlined?
20 A. I think that Merdani is somewhere over here.
21 Q. So in the same general area as Loncari and
23 A. Yes, in the broader area. Merdani is on the
24 right-hand side of the Lasva River.
25 Q. And Jelinak and Putis?
1 A. (Marks). Jelinak, Putis (indicating).
2 Q. Thank you. You can sit down. Were there any
3 BiH battalions in Ahmici before April 1993?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Other than the command that you've pointed
6 out for the 325th, where were the BiH army battalions
7 located at that time?
8 A. They were at the front, at Turbe and Visoko.
9 Q. Do you know an area -- I think we've talked
10 about this briefly -- called Kuber?
11 A. (Indicating)
12 Q. Could you underline that so we can find it
14 A. (Marks)
15 Q. Do you know what was at Kuber?
16 A. I only know that there was a HVO unit at
18 Q. And just so we can orient ourselves a little
19 bit, looking at that big map of Ahmici which is partly
20 covered by the military map, in what direction would
21 you have to go from Ahmici in order to get to Kuber?
22 Would it be closer to go through the Upper Ahmici area
23 or through the other side of Ahmici, down through
25 A. Through Upper Ahmici.
1 Q. Now, just a couple of more questions about
2 that map. There are some blue circles up near the
3 Travnik area, and I think you may have mentioned it
4 before. Those blue circles have the letter V in them.
5 Do you see what I'm referring to?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you know, again, what those blue circles
8 signified and what those troops were doing there?
9 A. As I've already said, the V is an
10 abbreviation for "VOD," which is a platoon. As for the
11 units, as this was quite close to the battlefield, the
12 frontline towards the Serbs, the units were located
13 there if the need arose for them to intervene and
14 maintain a defence towards the Serbs.
15 Q. Then within the valley you see some blue
16 circles with nothing in them, no V, empty. Were there
17 any BiH troops located in those blue circles?
18 A. No, there weren't.
19 Q. And do you have any explanation or can you
20 provide any explanation as to what those empty blue
21 circles mean on that map?
22 A. I don't know. I have no idea. No.
23 MR. MOSKOWITZ: We will, at this time, offer
24 into evidence Exhibits 225, 226 and 227, the first two
25 under seal and the last one not under seal. Thank
2 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
3 Counsel Pavkovic.
4 MR. PAVKOVIC: Your Honours, the witness will
5 be interrogated by Defence counsel Ranko Radovic and
6 Jadranka Slokovic-Glumac.
7 MR. RADOVIC: I will be brief and my
8 colleague will not be that brief, so we have changed
9 roles as it were.
10 Cross-examined by Mr. Radovic:
11 Q. By way of introduction, may I ask you for a
12 closed session lest some surnames slip my tongue,
13 because I will have to be asking questions about
14 certain individuals, specific individuals.
15 (Closed session)
13 Pages 3330 to 3355 redacted – in closed session
7 (Open session)
8 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:
9 Q. Tell me, what ways did you pull out towards
10 Vrhovine? How was this retreat organised?
11 A. In groups. Groups of 10 to 20 women, elderly
12 men, and children.
13 Q. How many people managed to get up to
15 A. I don't know the exact number.
16 Q. Could it have been around 500 people?
17 A. I don't know.
18 Q. Do you know how large the groups were?
19 A. Up to 20 people per group.
20 Q. Did you try to organise it so that these
21 groups would be escorted by soldiers or by a person
22 with a rifle on that person?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. How many such soldiers with rifles went up
25 towards Vrhovine?
1 A. There were two per group.
2 Q. So there could have been some ten groups in
3 view of the number of people?
4 A. I don't know.
5 Q. Tell me, where was the line of defence
6 established on the 17th, on your side?
7 A. The defence line?
8 Q. Yes.
9 A. I believe it was at Barica Gaj.
10 Q. How many people manned the line at Barica
12 A. I don't know.
13 Q. Were you there?
14 A. Yes, but for a short while.
15 Q. How many people were -- during the short
16 while that you were there, how many people were there
18 A. I don't know exactly.
19 Q. Well, try to say.
20 A. How can I say when I don't know exactly?
21 Q. I'm not asking you exactly. Was it more than
22 20 people, more than 50, more than 100?
23 A. Up to 20 people.
24 Q. How far is it from Ahmici to Vrhovine on
25 foot? How much time does it take you to get there, for
2 A. I believe 30 to 40 minutes.
3 Q. This line of defence which was set up in
4 Barica, when was that? Was that already on the 17th,
5 in the morning of the 17th?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. This line was held by 20 people?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And those are people from the village?
10 A. Yes, and there were some people from Vrhovine
12 Q. Did any units from Zenica come to your
14 A. No.
15 Q. You know for a fact that it didn't, or is it
16 possible they came but you don't know?
17 A. No, I know for a fact that they didn't, that
18 one didn't.
19 Q. Does the name Fehim Mujezinovic (phoen) mean
20 anything to you? It doesn't mean anything to you? You
21 don't know?
22 A. No, no.
23 Q. If I help you and tell you that he was the
24 commanding officer, the commander of the Zenica unit
25 which came to help you on that day, who was killed at
1 Barica Gaj on the first day?
2 A. I don't know that.
3 Q. Until what time were you at Barica Gaj?
4 A. We came up in the early hours of the morning
5 and I stayed there for at most two or three hours and
6 then we returned because the people from Vrhovine had
7 come in the meantime to see what had happened to us. I
8 went --
9 Q. Where did you go?
10 A. I went to Vrhovine.
11 Q. Why did you go to Vrhovine? To join the
12 staff or what?
13 A. I went to Vrhovine, first of all, because my
14 family was there, to see them, to tell them that I was
15 alive, to have a bite to eat and to recuperate a bit.
16 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: I'm sorry, could we
17 have a closed session for a minute only?
18 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes.
19 (Closed session)
13 Pages 3360 to 3372 redacted in closed session
1 (Open session)
2 (The witness entered court)
3 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:
4 Q. Let us continue. The last thing that we were
5 discussing was this information about putting units in
6 the first degree of combat readiness. And you said
7 that as far as you were concerned, that meant taking
8 rifles and shooting.
9 A. Not as far as I was concerned, as far as
10 organised troops and organised army on the lines was
12 Q. But this cable was sent directly to you,
14 A. I do not recall to whom it was sent.
15 Q. To whom could it have been sent if not you,
16 if you were the person in command?
17 A. I was not in command at all, I was just the
19 Q. Yes, but whenever command is referred to in
20 this diary, your name is also there.
21 A. Well, yes.
22 Q. Well, tell me who whom else it could have
23 been sent but to you. To only you, to just you,
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And your reaction to that cable was what?
2 A. To reinforce the guards.
3 Q. But you had done that before that. Now, when
4 we talked the previous date, you said that you had
5 reinforced the guards then. You said that a cable had
6 arrived for patrols to be reinforce and for more
7 reconnoitring to be done. How come you did not receive
8 a similar telegram?
9 A. I don't know.
10 Q. Then, I mean. Okay. So your reaction then,
11 was it to just reinforce the guards?
12 A. Yes. We were to inspect the guards to see
13 how many people were in the guards, and to see how many
14 reinforcements were needed.
15 Q. Were there any people on furlough from the
16 army in the village then?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. How many such people were there?
19 A. I don't know the exact number.
20 Q. Well, approximately?
21 A. I don't know exactly.
22 Q. Can you say how many members of the B and H
23 army were in the village?
24 A. I don't know exactly.
25 Q. Approximately?
1 A. Between 30 and 40.
2 Q. Does that mean that the total number of the
3 members of the B and H army there was between 30 and
4 40, and in addition to that there were people engaged
5 in the village guards?
6 A. Yes, elderly people.
7 Q. Were there any minors in the village guards?
8 A. Yes, I believe that there were some.
9 Q. Tell me, in the middle part of the village,
10 in middle Ahmici, how many members of the village
11 guards were there? You said in the lower part of the
12 section there were, if I'm not wrong -- what did you
13 say? I'm sorry, I forgot.
14 A. I don't understand. Do you mean in one
16 Q. No, no, not in one shift.
17 A. The total.
18 Q. Yeah, the total number, that's what I mean.
19 How many people have been envisaged to stand guard?
20 A. The envisaged number was two for the guard
22 Q. How many people were on the list of guards?
23 A. I don't know exactly.
24 Q. Do you know that -- you don't know for the
25 lower part of the village either?
1 A. No, no, because as I told you, I didn't draw
2 up those lists of people to stand guard. I rather
3 inspected the guards and saw to -- sought to deal with
4 problems and talk to the people and ask them to stand
6 Q. So these guards were organised in pairs, two
7 people, right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And they took shifts -- they took turns every
10 two hours?
11 A. Not necessarily every two hours.
12 Q. How many?
13 A. Well, I don't know exactly. It depended on
14 the people directly involved. As the need arose, that
15 is the way they organised the shifts.
16 Q. So it could have been longer you're saying?
17 A. It usually was longer, because there were
18 only a few people that could stand guard.
19 Q. So how many people did you need, because you
20 stood guard from the evening till the morning. How
21 many people did it take? How many people did you
23 A. You mean during one night?
24 Q. Yes.
25 A. For one shift up to eight people were needed,
1 for the entire village that is.
2 Q. From say, 8.00 p.m. to 8.00 a.m. The next
4 A. Well, I can't say exactly from what time to
5 what time, but it was in the evening, in the night
7 Q. That would make 24 people if they took turns
8 every two hours per section of the village. The entire
10 A. Not the entire village.
11 Q. You said in principle they would stand guard
12 for two hours, from the evening till the next morning,
13 so we can take that to be from 8.00 p.m. to 8.00 a.m.
14 The next morning, which is 12 hours, meaning 2 hours, 6
15 people, meaning 12 people per section of the village
16 per night?
17 A. How many did you say? What was the total?
18 Q. Twelve?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. So four sections of the village required
21 during one night only, approximately 48 people per
23 A. No, not that many. There were never that
24 many. It was envisaged, yes, but there were never so
25 many out there.
1 Q. But these people would not stand guard the
2 next night, of course, the following night?
3 A. They did. As a rule they would go out the
4 next night, because we didn't have enough people and
5 usually they did. And sometimes even a single person
6 would stand guard two shifts per night because of the
7 lack of people.
8 Q. But in view of the number of people in the
9 village, could the number that we could reach as of
10 people having been involved in the guard be a hundred
11 for the whole four sections?
12 A. No, no, much less.
13 Q. What would you say if I told you, and I've
14 already told you this, that 27 people were on the list
15 for the middle part of Ahmici?
16 A. It is possible. It is possible. That is to
17 say all the people who lived there were those people.
18 Of course, not all of them stood guard. Some were, for
19 example, on vacation. They were members of the army
20 and they were on vacation. Of course we couldn't make
21 them stand guard too. I don't know who are the people
22 who are on this list, but perhaps there are minors
23 there too and we planned to put them on guard duty
24 because of the insufficient number we had, but I think
25 that's it. So these were the people that he had --
1 that were made available to him in that part of the
2 village. Whether all of them stood guard or not, I
3 don't know.
4 Q. Would you please look at this table on page 3
5 so that you would see the pairs that were made. So it
6 wasn't all the people, these are the people who were
7 listed as members of the guard. Those are the people
8 from that list.
9 A. Just a minute, please. Yes. Yes. These are
10 the people from that part of the village, all the
11 people who were planned for guard duty. However, some
12 of these people had jobs, who were not at home, who
13 were on the frontline against the Serbs. So this was a
14 total list from that part of the village. And, of
15 course, he could never get this many people because
16 there weren't -- they weren't there.
17 Q. According to this list, these were the people
18 who went out for guard duty, and it says so on the 7th
19 of March, that all of these people are duty-bound to
20 stand guard duty, and if they cannot, that they have to
21 find themselves a replacement. And number three says
22 if they do not go out for guard duty, this person would
23 be sent to prison and would not get a certificate
24 showing why they could not appear in their regular
1 A. Well, these were only our wishes. This was
2 wishful thinking. We hoped we could make them go on
3 guard duty this way but we couldn't.
4 Q. Was there actually someplace you could take
5 them to prison, like Preocica?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Now I'm going to tell you what it says on the
8 15th of April, 1993. "Before dark I went to Preocica, I
9 drove my wife. Then I got back home. I learned that
10 the Croats were concentrating around the Kupreskic
11 houses. We held a meeting (the command) at my place at
12 20.00 hours. We agreed to set up lines in case of
13 trouble, and then how and in what way to act. Nidjro,
14 Sisko and I agreed to met the next day at 14.00 hours
15 by the line in the direction of Gudura. In the
16 warehouse I was issued with 7.62 ammunition, 7.9
17 ammunition, 45 pieces grenade launchers, 3 pieces made
18 in Zenica explosive devices, two times three cartridges
19 of plastic explosive.
20 Q. Tell me, you said that there was a meeting in
21 that house at 20.00 hours that evening, and you said
22 that you agreed that you would reinforce the guard, and
23 here it says that if some problems cropped up that you
24 would reinforce the line, how to function, in what
25 way. Is this here true?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. So you didn't talk about doubling the guard,
3 you had done that earlier already, but now you agreed
4 on what should be done if something happened in the
5 village; is that correct?
6 A. Well, again, we reviewed the guard. There
7 were always, always problems with the guard,
9 Q. In addition to agreeing on the line in the
10 middle part of Ahmici, was the same agreed for the
11 lower part of Ahmici?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Where was the line for Lower Ahmici supposed
14 to be?
15 A. To the right-hand side from my house, above
16 those houses in middle part.
17 Q. That is in the middle part?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And by the mosque, down there by the mosque
20 since there were a lot of people living there?
21 A. The road that went there.
22 Q. Was that the main road?
23 A. No, no, no. On the right-hand side, the main
24 part of the road leading to that part of the village,
25 that is to say, on the left-hand side.
1 Q. Can we see this perhaps on the picture?
2 Could we remove this map perhaps?
3 A. In this part of the village (indicating).
4 This slope goes down here, so this is where the line
5 was envisaged, in this part of the village. The
6 planned line was this way, this way and this way
8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters cannot hear
9 Counsel Slokovic-Glumac.
10 JUDGE CASSESE: Could you please speak into
11 the microphone?
12 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Could I please walk up
13 to the map so that I could see which part he showed in
14 relation to what he was telling us?
15 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes.
16 A. In this part, in this part of the village and
18 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:
19 Q. That means above the mosque?
20 A. Yes, yes. You see the configuration of the
21 terrain here, the slope going down here (indicating)?
22 Q. All right. And now in this part of the
23 village? That is the middle part?
24 A. Yes, that is the middle part. I think that
25 the planned line went this way, this way and this way.
1 I think it went along this road (indicating).
2 Q. All right. And the upper part?
3 A. The upper part over here, from one house to
4 another. See? And I think it was envisaged to go
5 somewhere around here. There is a hill here
7 MR. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: All right.
8 JUDGE CASSESE: I wonder if there is a means
9 of putting this on the record. I wonder whether either
10 the Defence counsel or Prosecutor could describe the
11 various defence lines for the record. Could you do
13 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Yes, I'll do that.
14 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Wonderful.
15 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:
16 Q. So the defence line in Lower Ahmici went
17 behind the lower mosque towards the main road; is that
19 A. I showed it just now, I'll show you again.
20 This part, this part (indicating).
21 Q. What is the name of that part? There's a
22 forest there too, isn't there?
23 A. It's sloped ground here, and that is where
24 the defence line was envisaged (indicating).
25 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Well, that is what I
1 said, in the area behind the mosque that goes towards
2 the main road, in that section.
3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters cannot
4 hear the witness, I'm sorry.
5 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:
6 Q. All right. In the middle part of Ahmici
7 where was the defence line?
8 A. I think it was planned this way, this way and
9 this way (indicating).
10 Q. So it went over the road that goes to Upper
11 Ahmici and in the area of where the upper mosque was,
12 and it spread from the left and the right-hand side
13 from the road. How far away is that from the road on
14 both sides?
15 A. To the left and to the right you mean?
16 Q. Yes.
17 A. Well, I don't know exactly. On the
18 right-hand side perhaps it's about 200 metres, and on
19 the left-hand side more. Perhaps about 300. I don't
20 know, about 300 or 400 metres.
21 Q. And Upper Ahmici?
22 A. Well, below these houses here.
23 Q. Below the houses in Upper Ahmici, along the
24 road that goes to Upper Ahmici?
25 A. Underneath the road and underneath the
2 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Mr. President, it would
3 be far more precise if we could draw this on one of
4 these maps, because it would be important for us too,
5 the Defence. So could we perhaps get one from the
7 So can we have him draw it here so that we
8 would have a copy, or perhaps could we have a photocopy
9 made right now, because I think this would be important
10 for us.
11 JUDGE CASSESE: Are you using P-226? I
12 wonder whether this is big enough. It's only a small
13 part. I don't think it's sufficient. We need a big
15 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: This would be the best
16 one. It's the same like up there.
17 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes.
18 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Thank you.
19 MR. MOSKOWITZ: You're welcome.
20 THE REGISTRAR: This photograph is marked
22 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:
23 Q. Well, could you now draw the lines that I
24 tried to describe?
25 A. I don't think you will be able to see it very
2 Q. Perhaps you could use a different marker or
4 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, and maybe give numbers
5 to each defence line, 1, 2, 3, 4.
6 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:
7 Q. Yes. Could you mark the line and could you
8 put numbers on them, 1, 2, 3, 4?
9 A. (Marks).
10 Q. And what about Lower Ahmici? You can't see
11 it very well over here.
12 A. That's marked too. (Marks).
13 JUDGE CASSESE: Could you please use the
14 pointer and now point to the various lines so that we
15 can see on the ELMO?
16 A. This is the line in the lower part of the
17 village. This is the middle part of the village, and
18 this is the line in the upper part of the village.
19 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:
20 Q. In Lower Ahmici you marked the line with 1,
21 didn't you?
22 A. No.
23 Q. So could you please do that? And the rest, 2
24 for the middle part and 3 for the upper part.
25 A. (Marks).
1 Q. Thank you. Please, could you look at the
2 last page of the diary? Just a minute, please. Tell
3 me, the line in the middle part of Ahmici, it goes
4 above the Kupreskic houses, doesn't it?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Well, where does it go?
7 A. Well, it's not near the Kupreskics' at all,
8 it's up there.
9 Q. It's above those houses?
10 A. Yes, above those houses and to the right.
11 Q. Tell me now -- look at this last map that you
12 have in the diary. Is that -- does that approximately
13 correspond to the median line, the middle line that you
15 A. I think so, yes.
16 Q. When you turn it around; right? Because it's
17 the other way around. Here are the names of the people
18 who are supposed to be at various positions along the
19 line. Was the same kind of sketch made for Upper and
20 Lower Ahmici so that the people who would be in certain
21 sections would be exactly registered?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. How many people registered for this lower
24 part of the village?
25 A. As many people as happened to be in the
1 village at that time.
2 Q. With weapons?
3 A. Both with and without weapons.
4 Q. These are only names here, and it is about 20
5 people altogether, and that's why I'm asking you.
6 These are people who were in the village that day, that
7 day that line was made, so they knew they would be in
8 the village. Was it made in such a way for Lower
9 Ahmici too?
10 A. For all three parts of the village this was
11 planned. That is to say, in case of an attack, the
12 people who happened to be in the village were supposed
13 to go to the line and to defend people, civilians, the
14 old, the young, the feeble, et cetera.
15 Q. So it was the individual names of people that
16 were listed?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And how many people were envisaged for Upper
20 A. I don't know exactly.
21 Q. More than for the middle part of Ahmici,
22 because there were more people there, right?
23 A. I think so, yes.
24 Q. And for Lower Ahmici?
25 A. Well, like for the middle part of the
1 village. I think that the number is more or less the
3 Q. All right. That's more than 60 at any rate.
4 Was the same thing made for Pirici, for this part that
5 you said you also covered with your guards?
6 A. Yes, I believe think the same was made for
8 Q. Where did the line go, the line for Pirici?
9 A. Under, below the houses.
10 Q. Can we see that there?
11 A. Shall I draw it in?
12 Q. Yes, on the large map. You will show it to
13 us on the large map.
14 A. (Marks).
15 MR. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Yes, number 4.
16 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter cannot hear
18 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:
19 Q. Will you show it on the ELMO, on this machine
21 A. This is it. Between the houses. Namely, all
22 the lines were planned to be between the houses, in the
23 house, around the houses, et cetera.
24 Q. Very well. This involved a similar number of
25 people, did it the not?
1 A. No, there were many -- it was much less in
2 this case. I don't know exactly how many but less.
3 Q. When you say "in the houses," what does that
5 A. That means that in the event of an attack,
6 people should be there. The moment they ran out of
7 their houses they should be in the right position to
8 defend their houses and their families.
9 Q. Does that mean that they would be using their
10 houses as a place from which they would shoot if
11 anything happened?
12 A. No. No, that doesn't mean that.
13 Q. All right. Now, we have already said this.
14 You were counting, in this exercise, on the people who
15 were in the village because this was done immediately
16 prior to that date, which is to say the 15th.
17 A. Yes. We had such an agreement from before
18 about the establishment of guards, because the moment
19 that Strane, Merdani and the other villages happened
20 and Esad was killed, we were compelled to give some
21 thought to this and to try to find the right solution.
22 Q. But on the 15th, in view of the information
23 which you received, you specified this in more detail?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Tell me, did there exist a storehouse, a
1 depot for weapons in the village?
2 A. No, there did not.
3 Q. How come then that the person who wrote this
4 diary was issued with the weapon from a storehouse
5 because deformulation use was -- "I was issued with
6 armament" -- that was on the 15th of April and he did
7 not take it from somewhere himself, he was issued with
8 arms from a storehouse.
9 A. I don't know. I'm quite sure that there did
10 not exist a depot of weaponry.
11 Q. But was there a place where weaponry was kept
12 or some parts of the arsenal, ammunition, for instance?
13 A. No, no, there was nothing of the kind. The
14 only -- everything which was there was at the
15 frontlines towards the Serbs, the rifles, the
16 ammunition, et cetera.
17 Q. Except your rifle. Your rifle was in the
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And there were more rifles?
21 A. Yes, there were.
22 Q. And there was some ammunition because this
23 man took it on the 15th.
24 A. Yes, there was ammunition, and how he came by
25 that ammunition, I don't know.
1 Q. It also says here explosives and various
2 charges with plastic explosives and so on. Where did
3 the explosive come from?
4 A. I have no idea.
5 Q. Were the people from the village perhaps --
6 A. The people worked at the SPS factory.
7 Q. Was it perhaps from there?
8 A. Yes, there were some people who worked at the
9 SPS factory, but they had not been working for quite
10 some time because it had been occupied so that the
11 Muslims had no access to it at all. They weren't
12 allowed to go up there at all.
13 Q. But in the course of the proceedings, we
14 heard that people did work at the SPS.
15 A. Yes, they did. But at that particular time,
16 in 1992, 1993, they could not access their workplaces
17 at the Slobodan Princip Seljo factory because the HVO
18 had taken it.
19 Q. Tell me, how many people were able to go to
20 work because the HVO unit was there? How many people
21 are you talking about?
22 A. Nobody could go.
23 Q. But were they on hold, were they made
24 redundant, or was work going on at the factory at all?
25 A. I don't know. Some of them were on hold, and
1 even those who were supposed to work were not allowed
2 to come and work.
3 Q. Very well. Let us go back a bit to this part
4 where you refer to the 325th Mountain Brigade. When
5 was it set up? In view of the fact that you took part
6 in its establishment, when was it set up?
7 A. It was not organised towards the end. It had
8 not been -- setting up had not been finished at the end
9 of 1993, although we did work on it daily, but we never
10 managed to really organise the brigade.
11 Q. Okay. Tell me: How many battalions did it
13 A. Two.
14 Q. Where were the command posts of these?
15 A. One was at Kruscica and the other one was at
17 Q. And what about Vitez, Stari Vitez? Was there
18 a battalion at Stari Vitez?
19 A. No, not a battalion. It was called municipal
20 staff at the time.
21 Q. But was there any unit at Stari Vitez which
22 remained there after the attack on Stari Vitez? Not
23 just a staff. You keep referring to a staff. I'm
24 talking about people.
25 A. I don't know.
1 Q. You don't know. Was there a battalion with a
2 command post in the village of Bukve which comprised
3 people from Stara Bila, Sadovace, Bukve?
4 A. No, there was no battalion there at all.
5 Q. What was there?
6 A. There were these two battalions and the
7 people at Stari Vitez, and what their name was, I think
8 it was the municipal HQ or staff.
9 Q. But when the 325th was formed, there were no
10 more HQs, staffs. Tell me -- so there was a command
11 post of the battalion in Kruscica and the other one at
12 Preocica. Poculica -- what was in Poculica then?
13 A. As far as I know, nothing.
14 Q. Nothing. And was there any unit at Vrhovine?
15 A. I don't know.
16 Q. There was a company?
17 A. I don't know.
18 Q. Was there one at Dubravica?
19 A. I don't know that.
20 Q. Solakovici?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Sivrino Selo? Another company, the second
24 A. I don't know.
25 Q. You don't know. What about Pirici, Ahmici,
1 Santici, and Nadioci?
2 A. I don't understand.
3 Q. What was there? How many people were there?
4 Was there any sort of an organisation, an organised
5 unit there?
6 A. No.
7 Q. No. So there were only the guards, as you've
8 already said, and individual people who individually
9 were members of the army of the B and H?
10 A. Yes, there was no organised army formation
12 Q. According to which principle were the troops
13 organised? Was it according to the territorial
15 A. As a rule, yes.
16 Q. That means that people from a certain
17 territory would comprise a certain unit, make up a
18 certain unit; is that right?
19 A. I say usually, yes, although it was not that
20 way in all cases.
21 Q. Was it according to the territorial principle
22 that the 325th was set up?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And these individual battalions which
25 comprised the population from the territory of the
1 municipality of Vitez?
2 A. Yes, the 325th Brigade was from Vitez, so it
3 was only natural that people from that particular
4 region would be used to man it.
5 Q. So it depended on the size and the number of
6 people in a certain area, but the people in a certain
7 area would also be organised into certain units
8 depending on the size?
9 A. I don't understand you.
10 Q. I'm saying that people from a certain area,
11 from certain villages or places, were organised into
12 units according to the territorial principle?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. That means that people who lived in the area
15 of Ahmici, Santici, and Pirici also had this kind of
16 organisation, according to the territorial principle;
17 is that right?
18 A. All of these people belonged to 325th
20 Q. To lower formations, you mean?
21 A. Yes. But which people belonged to which
22 formations, that I do not know.
23 Q. All right. In relation to this part that --
24 oh, just a minute, please.
25 So in relation to Ahmici, what was the place
1 that you were at? This diary speaks of the command, so
2 I am going to simplify matters to: Where was the
3 command in Ahmici? Where did you usually meet?
4 A. There was not a specified place.
5 Q. Was it the school?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Where was the radio station?
8 A. The radio station was in the house of Nasid
9 Ahmic, the old house.
10 Q. That is not the house of the Nasid Ahmic that
11 you mentioned.
12 A. No, this is his new house. He had an old
13 house up there in the other part of the village.
14 Q. Was that house abandoned?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Who manned the radio station?
17 A. Several people worked there.
18 Q. Was duty organised round the clock at the
19 radio station?
20 A. Sometimes, yes; sometimes, no. It all
21 depended on the man who was on duty. It depended on
22 his conscience, whether he would be there all the time.
23 Q. However, what was envisaged? Full-time duty?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Do you know when this duty started at the
1 radio station?
2 A. I couldn't say exactly.
3 Q. At the time when you were in the village and
4 when you were dealing with this organisation, who was
5 the radio operator? Who do you know as the radio
7 A. I think that Husein Ahmic worked there.
8 Q. What radio station was it?
9 A. RUP 12.
10 Q. Was this radio station transferred on the
11 16th; do you know that?
12 A. I don't know.
13 Q. Who were they linked to through this radio
15 A. With the command of the battalion in
17 Q. Was there also communication with some other
19 A. I do not recall. I'm not sure. I think
20 there was, but I'm not sure.
21 Q. I have it written down somewhere and I can
22 remind you of it, but obviously I can't find it.
23 Was there communication with Kruscica,
24 Vraniska, Vrhovine, Poculica?
25 A. I don't think so.
1 Q. And with some of these places?
2 A. I don't think so. I don't think there was
3 any communication with these places.
4 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: I would now have to put
5 a direct question involving a name too, so could we
6 please move into a closed session?
7 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, we will move into a
8 closed session.
9 (Closed session)
13 Pages 3400 to 3405 redacted – in closed session
22 --- Whereupon proceedings adjourned at
23 5.00 p.m., to be reconvened on
24 Wednesday, the 30th day of September,
25 1998, at 9.00 a.m.