1. 1 Wednesday, 7th October 1998

    2 (Closed session)

    3 (The accused entered court)

    4 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.









    13 Pages 3913 to 3984 redacted in closed session













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    17 (Open session)

    18 MR. SMITH: Good morning, Your Honours. Yes,

    19 this witness has asked for no protection. It's been

    20 fully explained to him that those options could be open

    21 to him, and he's quite happy to testify in public.

    22 (Discussion with registrar)

    23 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Do you mind,

    24 Mr. Smith? I'm sorry, I apologise, but I understand

    25 Mr. McGreeghan is here, and probably even for you it's

  2. 1 better to start at 2.00 and now we could spend the next

    2 few minutes discussing this matter. I apologise.

    3 Thank you.

    4 Is it in closed session? No, because we are

    5 not going to mention any name. Most of this trial is

    6 in closed session; it's a pity for the public -- I

    7 mean, for the idea of a fair and public trial. We are

    8 very keen on a public trial. It's a basic notion of

    9 international criminal justice.

    10 Now, I understand Mr. McGreeghan is the

    11 deputy head of the unit.

    12 (Mr. McGreeghan entered court)

    13 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning, Mr. McGreeghan.

    14 MR. McGREEGHAN: Good morning, Your Honour.

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: You are sitting there not as

    16 a witness, of course.

    17 MR. McGREEGHAN: Thank you, Your Honour. I

    18 appreciate that.

    19 JUDGE CASSESE: I am grateful to you for

    20 coming here. I wanted to ask you to report on the

    21 conditions of Witness SA --

    22 MR. McGREEGHAN: Yes. I received this

    23 morning, as you're aware, a fax from a member of my

    24 staff. At the moment, I'm acting as deputy coordinator

    25 of the unit, Mr. Bauduin being elsewhere, and this

  3. 1 morning I received a fax from our field office in

    2 Sarajevo, from Ms. Wendy Lobwein.

    3 Do you want me to relate all the content of

    4 the --

    5 JUDGE CASSESE: Maybe you could summarise the

    6 content because this document has been circulated to

    7 both parties and also the Court was given a copy.

    8 MR. McGREEGHAN: As soon as I received the

    9 document, I read it several times, and I think it does

    10 become apparent that since the witness was last here in

    11 The Hague, her condition has deteriorated. She is

    12 receiving treatment in the region. The treatment is

    13 referred to in the report of Ms. Lobwein, and I'm

    14 satisfied from the report -- I'm not sure what Your

    15 Honours' decision will be -- but I'm satisfied from the

    16 report that at this time the witness isn't in a

    17 condition to travel or to appear before the Court. I

    18 have that very clear impression from the report of

    19 Wendy Lobwein.

    20 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Any questions

    21 from -- I wonder whether the parties would like to ask

    22 questions of Mr. McGreeghan.

    23 Yes? Counsel Slokovic-Glumac?

    24 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Yes, thank you. I

    25 would kindly ask you: Was there any kind of insight

  4. 1 made to the medical documentation pertaining to that

    2 witness, because from the report, we cannot see that

    3 the medical documentation has indeed been reviewed, and

    4 the person who has signed the report is obviously not a

    5 physician. Therefore, I simply wish to know whether

    6 this is a personal subjective assessment of the medical

    7 condition of the witness, or has there been any

    8 analysis, any review, examination of the medical

    9 documentation that's been made, and what are the

    10 qualifications of the person who conducted the

    11 interview with this witness?

    12 MR. McGREEGHAN: The interview with the

    13 witness was conducted by Wendy Lobwein. She has been a

    14 member of the staff in the Victims and Witnesses Unit

    15 since October 1995. Her training in university in

    16 Australia resulted in her receiving a bachelor of

    17 social work from the University of Queensland, and in

    18 the intervening period between then and now, she has

    19 dealt extensively with cases of trauma resulting from

    20 war situations and has, as I understand, a number of

    21 publications printed in relation to this work. She is

    22 widely experienced and recognised for her care in the

    23 treatment of witnesses of traumatic events.

    24 As far as a review of the medical

    25 documentation, that has not been carried out by anyone

  5. 1 on my staff. There's no one suitably qualified to

    2 carry out an assessment of such documentation.

    3 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Yes? Counsel

    4 Slokovic-Glumac?

    5 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: A week ago, I think it

    6 was last week or the week before, that we received

    7 documentation relating to the tests that were performed

    8 on the witness, and according to that medical

    9 documentation, we are dealing with a person who is

    10 healthy. She did not suffer -- I mean, there was no

    11 diagnosis of any physical problems. So according to

    12 the documents, we are dealing with a healthy person.

    13 This is the first time that we hear something like

    14 this. The person who conducted the interview also

    15 offered a medical diagnosis, and she stated that we are

    16 dealing with a case of post-traumatic stress disorder,

    17 it's a real illness, a psychiatric illness,

    18 psychological illness.

    19 So it seems to me that it is very difficult

    20 for someone who is not fully qualified to offer this

    21 kind of diagnosis, notwithstanding the experience, work

    22 experience, of the person who was in charge of

    23 conducting the interview. This particular illness is a

    24 very serious disorder, and this is what we concluded on

    25 the basis of the documents that were given to us last

  6. 1 week; and therefore, we have two completely different

    2 reports: We have a report from the physician and a

    3 report from the social worker which differ a lot.

    4 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Would you like to

    5 comment?

    6 MR. McGREEGHAN: Yes, Your Honour. I have

    7 not had sight of the documents referred to from the

    8 previous medical examination, so I can't comment on

    9 that examination. But as a layman, I can foresee quite

    10 a difference in someone being physically healthy and

    11 yet having a fear of recall of the situation as this

    12 witness will testify -- or should that witness testify

    13 before the Court.

    14 JUDGE CASSESE: Any comments from the

    15 Prosecution?

    16 MR. TERRIER: No questions of Mr. McGreeghan,

    17 but I remind you that we do have some time ahead of us

    18 when it comes to this witness because it is a witness

    19 summoned by the Trial Chamber, and that person could be

    20 summoned until the end of December or the beginning of

    21 January, so we're not really pressed -- you know, we're

    22 not under time pressure.

    23 JUDGE CASSESE: Excellent idea. I thought of

    24 that myself.

    25 You may remember that we decided to summon

  7. 1 this lady as a Court witness; however, without going so

    2 far as to subpoena her. Now, we fully trust the

    3 competence and the experience of the various members of

    4 the Victims and Witnesses Unit who have been dealing

    5 with this particular lady, and we feel that it is

    6 probably not necessary now to insist to call her as a

    7 witness. However, we decide to admit into evidence her

    8 three written statements, so that they will be part of

    9 the evidence of this Tribunal.

    10 I don't know whether this -- what sort of

    11 evidence ...

    12 JUDGE MAY: Court exhibits.

    13 JUDGE CASSESE: Court Exhibits will be C?

    14 C-1? Anyway, they will be taken into account as

    15 evidence before the Tribunal, but I think there is no

    16 point in insisting -- although I very much appreciate

    17 the suggestion made by the Prosecution that we have a

    18 lot of time. She could be, in theory, called later on

    19 when the Defence case starts and during the Defence

    20 case. But I think, judging from also the relevance and

    21 importance of the evidence, it may be sufficient, as I

    22 say, to admit those three statements into evidence.

    23 So it is so decided, and we can now adjourn,

    24 and we will -- again, thank you, Mr. McGreeghan, so

    25 much for your cooperation, and let me once again

  8. 1 express the deep appreciation of this Tribunal for the

    2 excellent work and extremely professional work you are

    3 doing on behalf of victims and witnesses.

    4 Counsel Susak?

    5 MR. McGREEGHAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

    6 (Mr. McGreeghan withdrew)

    7 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I apologise, but I

    8 forgot to offer into evidence the statement of the

    9 previous witness, the statement that she gave to the

    10 Prosecutor, that it should be part of the record, that

    11 and Exhibit 263, but the other version where she

    12 indicated the location where the group of soldiers

    13 was. This exhibit has already been marked as Exhibit

    14 263.

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: On the same issue?

    16 MR. RADOVIC: No.

    17 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Slokovic-Glumac?


    19 JUDGE CASSESE: Any comments from the

    20 Prosecution?

    21 MR. TERRIER: No objection whatsoever to the

    22 request made by Mr. Susak, but I didn't quite get which

    23 statement he was speaking of.

    24 JUDGE CASSESE: The statement of the witness.

    25 MR. TERRIER: The one dated March 1998?

  9. 1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

    2 Microphone, Mr. Susak.

    3 MR. SUSAK: The statement dated 5th and the

    4 15th of March, 1998.

    5 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. No objection. And also

    6 the --

    7 MR. TERRIER: No objection.

    8 JUDGE CASSESE: And also the photograph but

    9 with the marking --

    10 MR. SUSAK: Yes, that it be part of the

    11 record as a separate exhibit, Your Honour. Thank you.

    12 THE REGISTRAR: The statement will be D5/4,

    13 and the photograph is marked D6/4.

    14 JUDGE CASSESE: That is the same photograph

    15 which had already been offered in evidence.

    16 THE REGISTRAR: We will make a copy of the

    17 photograph.

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: Excellent. All right. It is

    19 so decided, so it will be admitted into evidence.

    20 We adjourn now until 2.00.

    21 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.33 p.m.





  10. 1 --- On resuming at 2.08 p.m.

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: Good afternoon.

    3 Counsel Slokovic-Glumac?

    4 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Thank you. Good

    5 afternoon. I just wanted to say something with regard

    6 to the witness that we discussed before, who is a

    7 witness of the Court. And I would just -- SA, and to

    8 say that we received six statements.

    9 Mr. President, you said that there were three

    10 statements which would be adopted. So we don't know

    11 whether you have received everything from the

    12 Prosecutor, everything that we have received was from

    13 the Prosecutor's office, and I do not -- I do want all

    14 six statements to be on the list. I don't know whether

    15 we should make a copy of what we have received, the

    16 documents we have received, because the Prosecution

    17 abridged the statements on several occasions, and I

    18 don't know if you have the integral text of the

    19 statements. That is to say, whether you have all the

    20 texts and all the integral texts. So I don't know how

    21 we should decide in this matter.

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: Well, I think it's very

    23 easy. You are right, we should admit into evidence

    24 all the statements you have received, and we will ask

    25 the Prosecution to double-check. I will also check my

  11. 1 own file, and if some documents are missing I'm sure

    2 the Prosecution will be kind enough to give us all the

    3 statements.

    4 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Thank you. One more

    5 point linked with that witness. The Trial Chamber has

    6 decided to accept the evidence and not to call the

    7 witness, but we do not know the importance of this

    8 statement, the last written proposal sent by the

    9 protection unit, Victim and Witnesses Protection Unit.

    10 As we're dealing with an individual who is suffering

    11 from post traumatic stress syndrome, we don't know how

    12 her statement will be assessed, whether it will be

    13 assessed by the statement -- by somebody suffering from

    14 a psychological disturbance, which could reduce the

    15 value of the statement. Let me go back to the fact

    16 that we do not have any relevant medical documentation

    17 with regard to this fact. So we should like to propose

    18 either to have medical expertise performed, or for that

    19 last document not to be taken into consideration. It

    20 is the last document that we obtained today from the

    21 Victim and Witnesses Unit.

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: You mean this report, the one

    23 we got today.


    25 JUDGE CASSESE: No, this will not be taken

  12. 1 into account, only the statements, the six -- did you

    2 mention six statements?

    3 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Yes, six.

    4 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, six. Prosecutor, any

    5 objection?

    6 MR. MOSKOWITZ: No.

    7 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    8 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Thank you.

    9 (The witness entered court)

    10 JUDGE CASSESE: Good afternoon. Will you

    11 please make the solemn declaration?

    12 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

    13 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the

    14 truth


    16 Examined by Mr. Smith

    17 MR. SMITH:

    18 Q. Good afternoon Mr. Kablar. How are you?

    19 A. Good afternoon, and I say good afternoon to

    20 all of you in the courtroom.

    21 Q. In 1993 you lived in the town of Vitez. Can

    22 you explain to the Court who you lived with, and what

    23 your job was and what life was like early in 1993?

    24 A. My name is Zaim Kablar. I was born on the

    25 26th of June, 1957 in Vitez. I'm a Bosnian and have

  13. 1 two children, girls. I worked in Vitez in the Vintizit

    2 Vitez Work Organisation. That's where I was born and

    3 that's where I lived.

    4 Q. You were employed as a financial advisor or

    5 an economist; is that right?

    6 A. Of late I worked as the sales purchasing

    7 manager in the work organisation, for the past three

    8 years that is. Before that I worked in the financial

    9 department and commercial department, and I started off

    10 by works as a statistics expert, plan and analysis, the

    11 department for plan and analysis, but I have been

    12 working in Sintevit since 1986. I worked there up

    13 until 1993.

    14 Q. In April 1993 you were in the Bosnian army?

    15 A. No, I was not.

    16 Q. On the 15th of April, 1993, what were you

    17 doing during the day?

    18 A. On the 15th of April, 1993, I was doing my

    19 regular duties at the -- in my work organisation, from

    20 7.00 to 3.00 every day.

    21 Q. Previously that month had you been

    22 somewhere? Had you visited Slovenia?

    23 A. I -- on the 3rd of April, up till the 13th of

    24 April, I went to Maribor on business. I visited

    25 several firms with my colleague working in the

  14. 1 commercial department with me, Mr. Ruzic. We went to

    2 Vetotechna (phoen) and visited a number of companies

    3 there. We returned on the 13th of April, the two of

    4 us.

    5 Q. On the morning of the 16th of April, 1993,

    6 can you tell the Court what happened, what you first

    7 saw and heard?

    8 A. On the 16th of April, as my work begins at

    9 7.00, I got up at half past five, started getting ready

    10 to go to work at quarter to six. Detonations were

    11 heard and shooting was heard, and I saw that something

    12 was wrong. I saw that -- I just waited to see what was

    13 going to happen, in fact.

    14 In the meantime, the neighbour living up

    15 above me came down to my flat, Mr. Mijo Ruzic. He came

    16 down. We saw that something was happening, and between

    17 9:00 and 10.00 a.m. we were in my flat on the second

    18 floor, and on the third floor is where my neighbour who

    19 had been with me on the business trip to Slovenia

    20 lived, and we saw across the road that there was a

    21 Kombi parked there and that people were being taken

    22 away. As I saw that they were Muslims, I saw that they

    23 were getting Gerin Muazem away. I saw that something

    24 was happening.

    25 Then we went up to the third floor to Mijo's

  15. 1 flat and I stayed there. On the 16th I spent the night

    2 there and then returned to my flat on the 17th.

    3 In the meantime, while I was in my own flat,

    4 I noticed, as I'm on the second floor, in the

    5 Banjalucanka building, that's the name of my building,

    6 I can see down the road, next to my building was the

    7 Vitezanka building, and I saw the hairdressing salon

    8 owned by Zume Lasovic, I think that this was on fire,

    9 and shooting could be heard. We spent the night in

    10 Mijo's place and we stayed there until the morning.

    11 Q. I think you said that you saw some Muslims

    12 being taken away. Who was taking the Muslims away and

    13 what type of people were these Muslims? Were they

    14 male, female, women, children?

    15 A. I already said that they were taking Muazem

    16 away. There was a Kombi, and they took Gerin away.

    17 His flat is in the first entrance of our building. I

    18 think it was Hadja's brother. I don't know the name

    19 exactly. I saw that they were collecting Muslims, and

    20 so I went up to Mijo to see what was going to happen,

    21 because I didn't know what was going on.

    22 Q. Who were the people taking these Muslims

    23 away? What military group did they belong to, if you

    24 know?

    25 A. They wore camouflage uniforms, and they could

  16. 1 have been none other than the HVO.

    2 Q. Once you saw these people being arrested and

    3 during that day seeing the hairdressing salon on

    4 fire --

    5 A. Between 9.00 and 10.00 a.m.

    6 Q. That's when the arrests were taking place; is

    7 that right?

    8 A. No. First of all, the salon was on fire

    9 between 9.00 and 10.00 and they were taken away after

    10 that. I suppose that -- in fact, the hairdressing

    11 salon, there is the hairdressing salon and then

    12 Smaija's house and then there was shooting and probably

    13 some fighting, and after that there was a settling of

    14 accounts, and the hairdressing salon was then set fire

    15 to. I couldn't see any further because I couldn't see

    16 from where I was standing.

    17 Q. You stayed at Mijo Ruzic's house overnight;

    18 is that correct? On the night of the 16th.

    19 A. It's a flat. It's not a house, it's a flat.

    20 I'm on the second floor, he is on the third floor.

    21 Q. What were you doing in the apartment? You

    22 were hiding; is that right?

    23 A. I didn't have to hide there. In my entrance

    24 there were eight apartments. The Muslims and I went up

    25 to the third floor, and Sejo went over to Mijo and

  17. 1 that's where we were. Had I known what was to have

    2 happened, I would have left on the 16th and not waited

    3 until the 19th because it was better for safety reasons

    4 to leave than stay, but that's what happened.

    5 Q. On the Saturday did you move back to your

    6 apartment, the day after you heard the shooting and

    7 explosions?

    8 A. Yes, the next day, because there was a lot of

    9 propaganda via Radio Vitez, and they said that if

    10 anybody was harbouring Mujahedeen that they would be

    11 put up before a firing squad. Now who they thought of,

    12 probably not the section of town -- there were no

    13 Mujahedeen there and no Muslim army there, just

    14 apartment blocks.

    15 Q. You said you hid in your apartment for a

    16 couple of days.

    17 A. The 17th and 18th. On the 19th in the

    18 afternoon, at 6.00, they came for me and I went like

    19 everybody else.

    20 Q. When you say they came for you, who came and

    21 took you away?

    22 A. Three men from the HVO police. There were

    23 Cicin, and there was a young man who worked with my

    24 wife and I didn't know the third. They came to fetch

    25 me and then Sejo, we were the only ones left.

  18. 1 Everybody had left. A white Kombi was parked in front

    2 of the apartment building, and we were taken into it

    3 and taken to the cinema.

    4 Q. Before you were placed into the Kombi, did

    5 anything happen in the car park in relation to another

    6 HVO soldier -- or in relation to an HVO soldier?

    7 A. In front there was a young soldier. I don't

    8 know what he -- he wanted to kill me with his rifle. I

    9 don't know -- I don't know. He cocked his rifle at

    10 me. I don't know what he wanted to do. He just cursed

    11 me, he swore at me, and I was in the entrance as they

    12 told me to be, and Cicin too. I told him to leave, and

    13 I went into the Kombi.

    14 Q. About how many other men were arrested and

    15 placed in the Kombi?

    16 A. Sejo, myself and two other men, I think.

    17 They were with us. But mostly everyone -- everything

    18 had already been completed on the 16th, and when I got

    19 to the cinema there were many people there.

    20 Q. Where was the cinema in relation to your

    21 apartment? How far away was it from your apartment?

    22 A. Approximately 300, 400 metres. Not more. I

    23 lived in the Banjalucanka building. It there was 300,

    24 400 metres away.

    25 Q. When you arrived at the cinema, about how

  19. 1 many other people had been detained there?

    2 A. There were three locations in the cinema.

    3 Down in the boiler room. I was taken to the boiler

    4 room. Up above there were offices on the floor above,

    5 to the right. I couldn't tell you exactly how many

    6 there were there, I didn't count.

    7 Q. Who was in charge of the cinema? Who was in

    8 charge of the prisoners at the cinema?

    9 A. What do you mean?

    10 Q. Which military group was controlling the

    11 cinema?

    12 A. The HVO.

    13 Q. Who was the main commander in charge of the

    14 cinema in the HVO?

    15 A. How do you mean?

    16 Q. Was there --

    17 A. Do you mean the police or do you mean the

    18 command of the Vitez Brigade?

    19 Q. Well, who appeared to be in charge at the

    20 cinema? Was there a particular personality that

    21 appeared to be making sure that everyone stayed there?

    22 A. I don't understand you once again. Do you

    23 mean the police of the HVO, the commander or somebody

    24 who kept records as to which people were brought to the

    25 cinema? If you have in mind the commander, it was

  20. 1 Mario. He was the command of the brigade, and for the

    2 cinema there was Anto Kovac and Zalac. If you're

    3 thinking about the records, there was Boris Jovicic who

    4 wrote down our names. I don't know who you have in

    5 mind.

    6 Q. You said that the cinema was controlled by

    7 the HVO, and which groups of the HVO controlled the

    8 cinema? I mean, in terms of police or brigades,

    9 civilian police or Military Police, or any other

    10 particular group.

    11 A. The Military Police. And that was where the

    12 command of the Vitez brigade was. There was Mario

    13 Cerkez, Gerin Muazem. If you have a picture, I can

    14 show you exactly where it was.

    15 Q. I'll show you two pictures now, and if you

    16 can explain them to the Court as to what they are.

    17 THE REGISTRAR: The aerial photograph is

    18 marked 267, and the other photograph is marked 268.

    19 MR. SMITH:

    20 Q. Looking at the Exhibit 268 -- sorry, just

    21 wait for a moment.

    22 Looking at the Exhibit 268, can you tell the

    23 Court what that is a picture of?

    24 A. This is the facility that we called Kena

    25 cinema, but it had the worker's university entitled

  21. 1 Moshow Pijade.

    2 Here where the car stands -- I don't know if

    3 you can see what I'm showing you, what I'm indicating,

    4 this is the exit out of the cinema, of what we called

    5 the Kena. These pine trees, there was another exit out

    6 of the cinema itself, and this was where the command of

    7 the Vitez brigade was located. Planks were put on the

    8 windows for protection purposes, to stop somebody the

    9 shooting from Stari Vitez, because these two windows

    10 could be directly seen from there.

    11 I was here where the car is, down here.

    12 That's the boiler room. There were two rooms there,

    13 one smaller room. So there were, in fact, two rooms

    14 which were not hit. There was a boiler room down there

    15 to provide heating for the cinema.

    16 Q. Who was the commander in charge of the

    17 Military Police at the cinema?

    18 A. I don't know. I don't know what you have in

    19 mind.

    20 Q. Were there Military Police, HVO Military

    21 Police at the cinema?

    22 A. There was -- whether it was Anto Kovac,

    23 whether he was the head man or not, I don't know, but I

    24 saw that he was in charge, but I don't think he was at

    25 the head of the Military Police. I don't know.

  22. 1 Q. Did he belong to the Military Police?

    2 A. Yes, yes.

    3 Q. You stayed in the cinema for about four or

    4 five days before you were taken somewhere else; is that

    5 correct?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. Can you tell the Court where you were taken

    8 and who you were taken with?

    9 A. It was on the 24th -- between the 24th and

    10 25th. It was night, in the night. It was half past

    11 eleven and half past twelve p.m. A young man came. I

    12 think he was from Cajdras. Then he would point us

    13 out and say we would go. I said I had a stomach ache,

    14 but he said it didn't matter. There was a Kombi parked

    15 in front of the building of the regular type. That is,

    16 had there been a regular policeman inside I don't think

    17 this would have happened, but there were no regular

    18 policemen, there was this man. If it was somebody from

    19 Vitez I wouldn't have gone trench digging. I would

    20 have found my way somehow and I would have stayed

    21 there, which would have been normal because everybody

    22 would know me. Somebody else would have gone. But as

    23 I didn't know this young man I went in with this group

    24 and we into the Kombi and went in an unknown

    25 direction. Before that, for the five days I spent at

  23. 1 the cinema there was no problem because they were all

    2 people from Vitez, so I had no problems. Nobody had

    3 any problems as far as that part is concerned, in the

    4 cinema itself.

    5 The accommodation wasn't that good in the

    6 cellar, but you could go up to the cinema itself, or up

    7 on the floor above. But I didn't want to, I stayed

    8 below, because if the building was shelled, who was in

    9 the cellar would stay alive, so that's why I chose that

    10 solution. It wasn't such a good solution lodging wise,

    11 accommodation wise, but safer. But I didn't have any

    12 bad treatment towards me. Nobody was maltreated in the

    13 cinema, nor was anybody killed. The food was not very

    14 good. We had visits by families; your wife could come,

    15 she could bring you something to eat, to drink. You

    16 could contact your friends, you could ask them to bring

    17 you something. So there wasn't any problem with regard

    18 to that aspect in the cinema. There were a lot of us,

    19 but well, I don't think it was so bad. And my opinion

    20 is that it was safer there than if we had stayed at

    21 home. That is my opinion it depends on your aspect --

    22 how you saw things.

    23 Later on, it turned out that I was right,

    24 because -- let's go back to the 24th and 25th. We

    25 would be taken into the Kombi, we went in front of the

  24. 1 cinema -- would you like me to continue?

    2 Q. If you can just stop there. About how many

    3 people were taken into the Kombi?

    4 A. It was difficult for me to tell. I believe

    5 it was between 15 and 20 people. I was very frightened

    6 at that moment. I minded my own business. I didn't

    7 count anyone, and I wasn't really watching anyone. I

    8 was only thinking of myself.

    9 Q. And these were Muslim --

    10 A. But I believe there were between 15 and 20

    11 people. Yes, they were all Muslims.

    12 Q. Did you have a choice to go or were you

    13 ordered to go?

    14 A. No, there was no choice whatsoever. People

    15 didn't know me.

    16 Q. Were you told that you were going trench

    17 digging; is that right?

    18 A. Nobody told us anything. We had to go and we

    19 didn't know where we would stop.

    20 Q. You said this was the night of the 24th and

    21 25th of April. About what time did you leave the

    22 cinema and -- what time did you leave the cinema?

    23 A. Half past eleven, approximately.

    24 Q. Where was the first place you stopped?

    25 A. The first place where we stopped was at the

  25. 1 Bungalow, and this is where we got off the Kombi, the

    2 van, and then we heard a very loud explosion. It was

    3 dark. It was past midnight at that time. So there was

    4 this very loud explosion, and a man suddenly appeared

    5 and he told us to squat behind the van. He was also

    6 frightened because he didn't know what was happening.

    7 There was this Bungalow, and behind the Bungalow, there

    8 was the forest, the woods. So when we heard the

    9 explosion, it was chaos because everybody was

    10 frightened all of a sudden, and the driver said, "Let

    11 us move on." So we got on the van again and we moved

    12 on.

    13 Q. How far away was the explosion from the

    14 Bungalow, about?

    15 A. Not very far from the Bungalow, maybe 50 or

    16 100 metres away. At least that's how it seemed to me.

    17 It was difficult for me to orient myself, but it was

    18 very close because the soldiers were also afraid, not

    19 to mention ourselves.

    20 Q. How many soldiers were with you when this

    21 explosion occurred?

    22 A. There was the driver who was with us and two

    23 policemen, one had got out of the van, so I think that

    24 there were five or six of us in total. It was

    25 difficult for me to tell because it was dark, so I

  26. 1 couldn't see very clearly who was standing where, and

    2 you couldn't really observe the situation. It's very

    3 difficult to have an idea as to how many people there

    4 were in the woods.

    5 Q. Do you know if they were HVO military police

    6 or civilian police?

    7 A. There was no police. The HVO -- you mean the

    8 people who came out of the wood?

    9 Q. The people who came with you in the Kombi.

    10 A. Yes, the police, two policemen, and a driver.

    11 Q. Do you know which type of police they were:

    12 military or civilian police?

    13 A. There was no civilian police. They were all

    14 HVO members. It was wartime. The civilians were no

    15 longer in the picture. You know, it was already war by

    16 that time.

    17 Q. Did someone seem to be in charge? Once the

    18 explosion had gone off, did someone appear to be in

    19 charge of the HVO at the Bungalow, did the police and

    20 any other HVO member you saw?

    21 A. A man came out of the wood and he was making

    22 a lot of noise, and I suppose that he was in charge.

    23 Later on, we learned that he was in charge indeed.

    24 Later on, we can mention his name. Later on, it will

    25 become apparent -- I can mention his name as well. But

  27. 1 at that time, I didn't know who that man was. It was

    2 only later, the next day, the following day, that I

    3 learned.

    4 Q. Perhaps if you mention that man's name now?

    5 and we understand that you only came to know of it

    6 later. What was his name?

    7 A. We know him by the nickname of Cicko and it

    8 is actually Miroslav Bralo, and later on he was in

    9 charge of the location where I went digging.

    10 Q. What was he doing and what did he say when

    11 you were at the Bungalow?

    12 A. He shouted at us. He told us to squat, to

    13 put our hands behind our head, and then when things

    14 were a little bit quieter, he told the driver to move

    15 on. He said, "Drive on. Just go on." He said that to

    16 the driver. Maybe I didn't express myself very well.

    17 Q. You're expressing yourself very clearly. Can

    18 you give a description of this Miroslav Bralo, how tall

    19 he was, what colour his hair was, and his approximate

    20 age?

    21 A. You mean that night, that evening, or later

    22 on? That evening, I could not identify him. I

    23 couldn't see him very well. It was only later on when

    24 I saw him.

    25 Q. Can you give the Court a description of him

  28. 1 when you saw him later on?

    2 A. Yes. He's a young man. My height is about

    3 one metre and eight -- seventy, and he's about 10

    4 centimetres taller than me. He's not fat or anything.

    5 I used to know him by sight, but I didn't know him very

    6 well before that because he didn't -- he wasn't around

    7 in Vitez very often. I would only see him from time to

    8 time. Later on, I learned who he was.

    9 Q. You mention this place, the Bungalow. What

    10 village is that in?

    11 A. The village of Nadioci. This is how we know

    12 that village, by that name.

    13 Q. If you look at the map behind you, would you

    14 be able to locate where the Bungalow was, just the

    15 general area? Take your time.

    16 A. Mm, here (indicating). This is the village

    17 of Nadioci. Somewhere near the main road, the road

    18 leading to Busovaca. It was on the right side of the

    19 road as you come from Vitez. The Bungalow is on the

    20 right side of the road. It's maybe five kilometres

    21 away from Vitez. It's not a very good picture. You

    22 can only see maybe two or three villages on it.

    23 Q. If I show you a photograph now, will you tell

    24 the Court whether you can recognise that?

    25 I'm sorry, Your Honours. It's apparently in

  29. 1 evidence already. Prosecution Exhibit 119.

    2 A. This is the Bungalow. This is quite clear,

    3 that it's the Bungalow.

    4 Q. After you went to the Bungalow, where did you

    5 go from there?

    6 A. We went on. We continued, though we didn't

    7 know exactly where we were going. At one point, the

    8 lights were out in the van, but we reached Kaonik and

    9 then we turned right, and then we travelled maybe 200,

    10 300 metres from Kaonik and reached some kind of hangar

    11 which was situated 100 metres away. Before the war, it

    12 used to be a JNA warehouse, a depot, part of the

    13 barracks. I don't know what it was called. The army

    14 used to be quartered there. So this is where we were

    15 left, near that hangar. I had never been there before,

    16 and I didn't even know where I was, so it was difficult

    17 for me to tell where I was.

    18 Q. What did you see when you arrived at the

    19 Bungalow? Sorry. What did you see when you arrived at

    20 Kaonik camp?

    21 A. When we entered the hall, there was a guard

    22 there, and I knew that person. In a situation like

    23 that, it's good for you if you know someone, if there

    24 is someone you know, and this is someone I went to

    25 school with in Travnik, so it was easy for me to

  30. 1 establish some kind of contact with him.

    2 So we entered this place, this facility, the

    3 hangar, and on the left side of the hangar, there were

    4 some people lying -- at first I thought they were dead

    5 -- they were lying down on some kind of pallets, and

    6 there was a fireplace in the hangar and we came close

    7 to the fireplace because we couldn't sleep at that

    8 moment. But in the morning, when people woke up, we

    9 realised that there were a number of people there,

    10 maybe 20 of them, and they were alive.

    11 I thought that the guard would be coming back

    12 to pick us up -- actually, I was hoping that he would

    13 show up so I could have some kind of contact with him

    14 and it would have been easier for me.

    15 Q. Were you told where these men had come from,

    16 what areas, what towns or villages?

    17 A. I asked them. We kept asking each other, we

    18 wanted to know where people were from. Those were all

    19 elderly people from Jelinak, Loncari. There was also a

    20 couple of people who had been brought there -- who had

    21 been picked up in the street or on the road when the

    22 conflict broke out. There were only two or three of

    23 them who were not from Jelinak or Loncari. At that

    24 time, I didn't even know where Jelinak and Loncari

    25 were. It was only later on that I learned. I didn't

  31. 1 move around a lot.

    2 Q. I would like to show you another photograph,

    3 and if you can explain to the Court what that is?

    4 THE REGISTRAR: The photograph is marked 269.

    5 A. This is the main road to Busovaca, and there

    6 used to be a disco called Leptir here and I used to go

    7 there -- I used to go to this area, and this is the

    8 turnoff that leads to Kaonik, and then maybe 200, 300

    9 metres away, we turned, and this is the area where we

    10 stopped. I believe that this is the hangar where I was

    11 placed.

    12 Q. How long did you stay in Kaonik camp?

    13 A. I spent only that night there. On the

    14 following morning, the same driver came in the same van

    15 at about 10.00, and we were moved to another location.

    16 Q. Where were you taken to?

    17 A. We were taken -- I didn't know where we

    18 were. But at any rate, we were taken to Kuber. I

    19 wasn't quite certain of the name of the place at the

    20 beginning; I didn't know whether it was Kuber or

    21 Guber. It is not far from Loncari, that locality. It

    22 is called Kuber, and that is the first time that I had

    23 been there.

    24 The van remained some 200 metres away from

    25 that location, and we were taken to a house where some

  32. 1 HVO soldiers were quartered, and as I say, I had never

    2 been there before and I wasn't aware of the name of the

    3 place at that time.

    4 Q. About how long did it take you to drive from

    5 Kaonik to this house?

    6 A. Forty minutes, maximum, maybe up to one

    7 hour. Difficult to tell.

    8 Q. You mentioned there were some HVO soldiers at

    9 this house. Do you remember any of them in particular?

    10 A. When we got there in front of that house

    11 which was situated on the left-hand side, there was a

    12 shed near the house, and we sat there in front of the

    13 shed in a semicircle. Cicko came. There were a few

    14 other soldiers there. Then he forced us to make the

    15 sign of a cross. There was a young man who couldn't do

    16 it. I knew how to do it because I had worked in that

    17 area. I worked with a colleague, and I would go to a

    18 mosque -- and I also knew how to do that.

    19 Anyway, this young man was very frightened,

    20 and Cicko was about to hit him with a spade. I don't

    21 think that he would have killed him in front of us.

    22 But somehow eventually this young man managed to make

    23 the sign of a cross, and we remained there for a while,

    24 we were just sitting there. After a while, we were

    25 taken in the direction of Kuber. We were digging

  33. 1 trenches. We stayed there until nightfall, until about

    2 8.00.

    3 On that frontline, there were some of our

    4 people -- when I say "our people," I use it

    5 conditionally. I mean people who I knew from before,

    6 from the Kolonija neighbourhood. It's easier if there

    7 are people who are known to you; we were not really

    8 afraid because we were together. I was lucky because I

    9 didn't have to work very hard on this particular spot,

    10 but later on, I was moved to another spot where I had

    11 to dig. It all lasted until about dusk, until

    12 nightfall, when we were taken back to the same house.

    13 After that, we were taken to another location

    14 near the village of Vrhovine, and this is where we were

    15 taken care of by some other people who were not very

    16 nice, and we really had to work very, very hard. There

    17 were no breaks. We had to dig all the time, from 8.00

    18 p.m. until 6.00 a.m. the next morning, without break.

    19 I was all wet, I was sweating, my clothes were

    20 completely wet. This is where I was sweating very hard

    21 and I got dry there. Later on they gave me some tea.

    22 There was this very young man with us who

    23 used to play football with me. He realised that I was

    24 feeling ill, and so he gave me some tablets. I took

    25 some tablets. We remained there for about ten hours.

  34. 1 Then Cico, the driver, arrived, and I told him that I

    2 should be taken to see a doctor, that I was not feeling

    3 very well, and he said that he would see about that,

    4 and after half an hour, he came back.

    5 Q. Sorry to interrupt you, but just so that the

    6 Court is not confused. You mentioned a Cicko, a person

    7 who was at the house when you first arrived to dig

    8 trenches, and is that Miroslav Bralo?

    9 A. It's the same person, but he just has the

    10 nickname Cicko.

    11 Q. Then you mentioned another, I think, Cico,

    12 who took you away or who was at the house when you were

    13 feeling sick. Is that a different person to Cicko?

    14 A. It's a different person. He wasn't in the

    15 house; he was the driver and had brought something to

    16 the house. This was about 10.00 the next day. But

    17 it's a different person. It's the driver who drove the

    18 van and who took us up to the Bungalow and brought us

    19 back. It's the same person.

    20 I apologise. Let me just say that when we

    21 returned from Kaonik, he asked who I was and he knew

    22 who I was. He gave me a packet of cigarettes and I lit

    23 up a cigarette and then we went there.

    24 So if you knew somebody, you would have no

    25 problems. If you didn't know anybody, you would have

  35. 1 problems. That's normal, I suppose. At least that's

    2 what I thought to be true. I used the people I knew,

    3 and if I didn't know anybody, well, tough luck. That's

    4 how it was.

    5 Q. If I could just ask you a few specific

    6 questions? Up until the moment that you mentioned that

    7 you were quite sick, you left Kaonik camp on Sunday

    8 morning, the 25th, and arrived at the house where

    9 Miroslav Bralo was and was forcing you to make signs of

    10 the cross about 12.00 on the 25th; is that correct?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. And then you were sent away to dig some

    13 trenches and --

    14 A. Yes, to the right, towards Kuber.

    15 Q. At that location, you had some guards that

    16 were quite friendly towards you; is that correct?

    17 A. Yes, to the right, towards Kuber. There were

    18 people from the colony. We call the area I lived in

    19 the colony.

    20 Q. This area I think is Kolonija, that's the

    21 area that you lived in, and that's in Vitez; is that

    22 correct?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. So these guards were from your neighbourhood?

    25 A. Yes, most of them.

  36. 1 Q. And I didn't make --

    2 A. Not the guards, the soldiers in the trenches.

    3 Q. So at that first location where you were

    4 meant to dig trenches, you didn't have to dig too hard

    5 because you had your friends at that location; is that

    6 correct?

    7 A. Yes. I was with the young man who had played

    8 in Vitez. I had played for Vitez too, and it would be

    9 stupid for me to dig trenches for him. He's younger

    10 than me. That's the situation that you make use of.

    11 Q. And you played soccer together?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. You finished at that location, you finished

    14 being at that trench-digging location in the evening;

    15 is that correct?

    16 A. Yes, thereabouts, because at around 6.00

    17 p.m., there was a little fighting between Kuber and the

    18 other side, the Strane side, and then we went down

    19 towards the house from which we left.

    20 Q. Can you explain to the Court why working at

    21 digging trenches, digging trenches is dangerous?

    22 A. It's dangerous because you can be killed

    23 because you're right in front of one rifle and across

    24 the way from the other rifle, and you're digging in

    25 front of one and he can kill you. He's not interested

  37. 1 in you. If you're digging here, then the other side

    2 can also get you, so you're up at the frontline, in

    3 fact, so both sides can kill you. You don't know where

    4 the wind's coming from, whether one side's going to

    5 kill you or the other side. Someone perhaps can know

    6 which side; some others don't. One of these people can

    7 send you up in front, and you can be killed from the

    8 other side. You don't know. That's the kind of

    9 situation it is.

    10 We call that a human shield. It is a human

    11 shield and it isn't a human shield. You can call it

    12 whatever you like. But it's something that is

    13 absolutely the most dangerous thing that you can

    14 imagine in this conflict. So it's an ordinary civilian

    15 making use of you sometimes and he can kill you.

    16 Perhaps somebody who knows you and doesn't like you can

    17 kill you, and then the other one can say, well, he

    18 killed me. They're all very -- the situation isn't

    19 good for the one in the middle, that's for sure.

    20 Q. The frontline, who was that between, which

    21 groups?

    22 A. How do you mean?

    23 Q. The frontline. Which military groups is that

    24 between?

    25 A. The HVO was where I was. Over there, there

  38. 1 was probably the army. I didn't see them. I didn't

    2 know who was there, but I suppose it was the army.

    3 Q. You said that you arrived back after this

    4 trench-digging to the house at about 6.00 in the

    5 evening, and then you rested there for a while; is that

    6 correct?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. Then on the evening of the 25th, you went out

    9 trench-digging again to another location where the

    10 soldiers were not as nice to you as at the first

    11 location near Kuber or Guber?

    12 A. There was a drastic difference because the

    13 ones from Cajdras were here towards the Vrhovine side.

    14 They were dangerous. They would beat you up. You

    15 didn't know anybody there. But I had a little luck

    16 here because, as I say, there was this

    17 Crnogorac/Montenegrin digging with me, and somebody

    18 from a dugout recognised him and gave him some easier

    19 work to do, where I was wearing white sneakers and

    20 shot -- and so these are tricky situations. But it

    21 wasn't a good thing if you didn't know anybody. Had we

    22 known somebody, we could have had a rest perhaps, but

    23 as we didn't know anybody, I suffered the consequences

    24 drastically because I had never done any digging in my

    25 life, and I had to do a lot of digging and at night,

  39. 1 and this Crnogorac -- this Montenegrin, never did any

    2 digging either and he had to dig, and we dug enormous

    3 trenches. Had someone told us to dig these trenches

    4 before the war, well ... But this was a situation when

    5 you had to, and we just dug them, and that's why I fell

    6 ill afterwards.

    7 Q. You dug trenches during the night, the night

    8 of the 25th and the morning of the 26th?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. What time did you finish digging the trenches

    11 on the morning of the 26th, about what time?

    12 A. As soon as it was dawn because I suppose the

    13 frontline was close too.

    14 Q. Can you tell the Court --

    15 A. But we dug some very good trenches, so you

    16 could move around safely. They were deep trenches,

    17 connecting trenches. We had done a good job. We

    18 fortified the area and then it was safe.

    19 Q. Is it because you dug so well, that's why you

    20 got sick?

    21 A. Well, I didn't dig too well, but I had a

    22 jacket on, and so I was ill when I had gone

    23 trench-digging, and then having dug the trenches, I

    24 felt even worse. I played active football for 25

    25 years, and, of course, if your vest is wet from sweat

  40. 1 and it dries on you, you'll be ill. Try it, you'll

    2 see. You will be ill straight off. And I had a vest

    3 and a pullover and a jacket, and everything was wet

    4 from the sweat from the work that I had been doing.

    5 Q. When you got back to the house and you were

    6 feeling in this sick way -- this is in the morning of

    7 the 26th -- what happened then?

    8 A. Nothing happened. I drank two cups of tea, I

    9 took two tablets -- I said that a moment ago -- and

    10 then the driver, Cico came, and as you couldn't

    11 communicate with Cicko, because I didn't know him and

    12 he wasn't fully conscious then, I would catch somebody

    13 that I knew. So I told him, "Listen, I want to get to

    14 a doctor." He left quickly and returned quickly and he

    15 said, "Well, let's go." So I went with him downhill.

    16 Q. Just before you went off with this Cico, who

    17 was in charge of the --

    18 A. Cico.

    19 Q. Cico. Sorry about the accents, Your Honour.

    20 Before you went off with Cico, who was in charge of the

    21 HVO soldiers at the house where you went and dug

    22 trenches for?

    23 A. There was Cicko for that complete line, and I

    24 was afraid of him. They were afraid of him and we were

    25 afraid of him. Nobody had a good time of it there.

  41. 1 The HVO soldiers were afraid of him and we were

    2 especially afraid of him. It was absolute chaos up

    3 there.

    4 Q. So Miroslav Bralo was in charge of that

    5 trench-digging operation on that part of the frontline;

    6 is that correct?

    7 A. He was in charge of everything, for the

    8 soldiers and for us, and everything that moved up there

    9 was in his charge. The complete area was in his

    10 charge.

    11 Q. But you decided not to ask him to be released

    12 from trench-digging, you asked the driver?

    13 A. No, it wasn't trench-digging, it was a pause,

    14 a break. What would have happened afterwards, I don't

    15 know. I just used the man, the driver who came,

    16 because the other one wouldn't let his mother escape

    17 from there if she was useful to him, so I used the man

    18 who came, the driver. I asked him to ask whether I

    19 could go to see a doctor, and I don't know what

    20 happened after that and what was to happen. He said,

    21 "Well, I'll see what I can do for you." He left and

    22 he came back about 45 minutes or one hour later. Where

    23 he went, I don't know. Later on, I was to learn where

    24 he went.

    25 Q. When he came back, what happened?

  42. 1 A. Nothing happened. He just said, "Let's go."

    2 And I left with him. I didn't report to anybody, I

    3 didn't say anything to anybody, we just left downwards,

    4 some 100 metres. We got into the van and left.

    5 Q. Where did you go?

    6 A. We stopped at the Bungalow.

    7 Q. About how far away was that from the house

    8 where you were having a rest?

    9 A. I've just told you. It's about half an hour

    10 away, perhaps less. It's difficult to orient yourself

    11 because you go through the wood, and then once you get

    12 to the road, there's only 20 metres. That is going

    13 down from the Bungalow where you turn off the road

    14 there. It's no problem. From the road to Kuber, I

    15 don't know how much that is. Nobody knows how far it

    16 is. I don't really know. You can't say exactly. But

    17 it's not far.

    18 Q. What happened at the Bungalow? Did you see

    19 anyone there?

    20 A. We parked in front of the Bungalow. Cico got

    21 out, I got out. Vlado was sitting there, Vladimir

    22 Santic. He said "Hello"; we said "Hello." He said,

    23 "What's up, Zajko?" "Well," I just said, "I'm sick."

    24 He laughed, I laughed, and I continued on my way with

    25 the chauffeur to Vitez to the doctor.

  43. 1 Q. This is on the 26th of April. And Zajko, is

    2 that your nickname?

    3 A. That's what they call me. Somebody calls me

    4 Zajkica, Zajko Kabalar. Well, it's out of -- an

    5 affectionate nickname.

    6 Q. Now, you mentioned a Vlado Santic. For about

    7 how long had you known this man?

    8 A. I didn't get that. I didn't hear very well.

    9 Well, I've known him for a long time. We lived in the

    10 colony together. We're of the same age. He's of my

    11 generation. So everybody living around in the

    12 neighbourhood, everybody knew each other.

    13 Q. What job did he have before the war?

    14 A. He was a traffic policeman.

    15 Q. Did you see him socially before the war?

    16 A. Never liked having policemen as friends. We

    17 were good friends. We would say hello, but we didn't

    18 socialise. I played soccer, and that was enough for

    19 me.

    20 Q. About how many times in a year would you see

    21 this Vlado Santic? Just on average, to give the Court

    22 an understanding of how well -- how able you were to

    23 recognise him before the war.

    24 A. Well, we saw each other a hundred times. I'm

    25 1.000 per cent sure.

  44. 1 Q. An investigator spoke to you before coming to

    2 the Tribunal and showed you 12 photographs; is that

    3 right?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. And you were asked to pick out -- if there

    6 was anyone in those photographs that you knew?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. Were you able to pick out anyone in those

    9 photographs?

    10 A. Well, the photographs I was shown I pointed

    11 out Vlado. I don't know the others.

    12 Q. Can you remember what number was under his

    13 photograph? Each photograph had a number either above

    14 or below it. Do you remember what number that was?

    15 A. How do you mean, what number or what? What

    16 dress he wore?

    17 Q. I'm asking whether you can remember the

    18 number that Vlado Santic appeared --

    19 A. What number he was under. Number 6. Left

    20 half.

    21 Q. If I show you these two exhibits now, can you

    22 tell the Court what they are?

    23 THE REGISTRAR: Would you like to have these

    24 photographs marked as one exhibit number?

    25 MR. SMITH: Yes, please.

  45. 1 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit 270.

    2 A. Is this ordinary water or mineral water?

    3 MR. SMITH: I'm not sure. It would be flat

    4 if it was mineral water anyway.

    5 THE REGISTRAR: It's ordinary water.

    6 A. I don't know what you drink. You can drink

    7 what you like. I don't know what side you're on and

    8 what you drink. I don't know who's where.

    9 What do you want me to point out now? Number

    10 6 is Vlado Santic.

    11 MR. SMITH: If I can just ask that exhibit

    12 number again.

    13 THE REGISTRAR: 270.

    14 MR. SMITH:

    15 Q. And can you look at the other page underneath

    16 the page with the number 6 on it. Does Vlado Santic

    17 appear on the other page, from 7 to 12?

    18 A. No, it doesn't look at all like him.

    19 Q. Do you see Mr. Santic in court today, Vlado

    20 Santic, the man that was at the Bungalow on the 16th of

    21 April?

    22 A. Yes, I can, but he's lost a little weight.

    23 Q. Can you point him out to the Court?

    24 A. Well, yes, I can. It's better for him to get

    25 up rather than me get up. Does it matter whether I

  46. 1 come or he comes?

    2 Q. Which row is he on? He's on the second row

    3 of the court, on the right-hand side?

    4 A. There, he is. The man's got a lot of hair on

    5 his head.

    6 Q. You're referring to the bald man in the

    7 courtroom?

    8 A. I like playing jokes now and again.

    9 Q. I ask it be noted on the record that he

    10 identified Vladimir Santic.

    11 You said that he greeted you when you arrived

    12 at the Bungalow, and he said something like, "What's

    13 the matter, Zajko;" is that right?

    14 A. Well, something like the kind, yes. "What's

    15 up?" because I was moaning and I was ill, and when you

    16 see somebody you know, you feel better already and then

    17 you carry on.

    18 Q. What was he doing? Was he standing,

    19 sitting?

    20 A. He was sitting.

    21 Q. Did you say anything to him when he asked you

    22 what was the matter?

    23 A. Well, he asked me, "What's the matter?" And

    24 I said, "I'm a little ill." Nothing special. We

    25 didn't say anything special, and since we know one

  47. 1 another, there were no problems there. Had we not

    2 known each other, I probably wouldn't have even got to

    3 that point.

    4 I probably would have stayed up there,

    5 because when the driver came he probably have said that

    6 it was me who was ill, and as he knows me, then he sent

    7 a car for me. Had he not known me as being a good man,

    8 I would have stayed up there, and it was very dubious

    9 whether I would have been brought down at all. I never

    10 said thank you to him, so I can say thank you to him

    11 now for sending the car to come and fetch me.

    12 Q. Who do you think was at a higher level in

    13 the -- I withdraw that question.

    14 What was he wearing, Vlado Santic, on this

    15 day, the 26th?

    16 A. As he was sitting down, he had a camouflage

    17 shirt on, a slightly better on.

    18 Q. Did he have any patches on at all? Did you

    19 notice?

    20 A. They all had patches of the HVO. Very few of

    21 them didn't. It was quite normal.

    22 Q. Did Vladimir Santic have patches on his

    23 uniform that day?

    24 A. Yes, on the left-hand side. Did you have

    25 them only the right -- on the left side? I beg your

  48. 1 pardon. Yes, he did, on the left. He's not going to

    2 have it on the right arm. I had my on -- my patches on

    3 the left. We all had them there.

    4 Q. And Miroslav Bralo, was he in uniform on that

    5 day, the 26th?

    6 A. Oh, yes, he did.

    7 Q. What was he wearing?

    8 A. He never took it off. He never took off his

    9 camouflage uniform. He never took a uniform on -- he

    10 had a good uniform, it was a nice new uniform, and he

    11 didn't like to take it off.

    12 Q. Can you remember what type of uniform that

    13 was, what colour?

    14 A. It was a camouflage uniform. Not a very good

    15 one. Not like Vlado. Vlado had Napovka (phoen) NATO

    16 type.

    17 Q. Did Miroslav Bralo had any patches on his

    18 uniform?

    19 A. Well, yes. He would put -- place two patches

    20 on, not one but two, if he could.

    21 Q. Do you know what those patches said? Can you

    22 remember?

    23 A. "HVO." They all had HVO patches. Only the

    24 black ones, they had other patches.

    25 Q. Now, do you know what part of the HVO

  49. 1 Vladimir Santic belonged to, whether it was the

    2 brigade, the Military Police or any other unit in the

    3 HVO?

    4 A. I don't really understand these different

    5 formations and who belonged to whom. He didn't belong

    6 to the army, that's for sure. He probably belonged --

    7 he belonged to the HVO, but which unit I really can't

    8 say.

    9 Q. When you say the army, you mean the Muslim

    10 army, the Bosnian army, the Bosnian Muslim army?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. Do you know which group Miroslav Bralo may

    13 have belonged to within the HVO?

    14 A. I couldn't tell you that. I was in such a

    15 situation I -- that I couldn't pay much attention to

    16 which unit people belonged. I only cared about getting

    17 safely to Vitez. I wasn't interested in anything

    18 else.

    19 Q. Now, you said that both Vladimir Santic and

    20 Miroslav Bralo were both in the HVO because of the

    21 patches you saw on their uniform, or that's what you

    22 presumed. Can you tell the Court which one you felt

    23 was at a higher level, Miroslav Bralo or Vladimir

    24 Santic? Are you able to say that?

    25 A. The one who had only four grades of

  50. 1 elementary school could not have been higher than the

    2 other one. This other guy was only used to scare

    3 people away, and the other was a commander. He was

    4 sitting far from the frontline, ten kilometres from the

    5 frontline. We all know where commanders stay.

    6 Q. And you said the person that had the four

    7 grades of school, who was that Miroslav Bralo or

    8 Vladimir Santic?

    9 A. Cicko.

    10 Q. That's Miroslav Bralo.

    11 A. (No audible response).

    12 Q. You believed that Vladimir Santic was some

    13 sort of commander, is that correct, within the HVO?

    14 A. He was always a commander. He always had a

    15 very good rating. No. Let us put all jokes aside.

    16 Cicko couldn't have been a commander at the frontline,

    17 because had Cicko had been commander, he wouldn't have

    18 let me leave that locality. He didn't let anyone go.

    19 When Cicko went to ask someone, he went to see Vlado,

    20 which was perfectly normal. Later on it turned out it

    21 was Vlado. We all knew who was in charge, it was not a

    22 secret, because we all knew each other in Vitez. It

    23 was not a big secret. If there's anyone who doesn't

    24 know me, it means that he's not from Vitez. It's not

    25 much of a secret. People knew what other people did.

  51. 1 There was no problem.

    2 If Cicko had been in charge, I would have

    3 never left that place, but that person knew me, and

    4 that person approved my going to see a doctor. It was

    5 some sort of mitigating circumstance. It's nothing --

    6 nothing really bad at that moment, as far as I'm

    7 concerned.

    8 As to what happened later on, it's really

    9 none of my business. There are other people who will

    10 take care of that. But that was the person who helped

    11 me at that moment. If I hadn't seen him, I wouldn't

    12 have come here today.

    13 Q. Just to be clear, your evidence is that

    14 Vladimir Santic approved you to go and have leave from

    15 trench digging; is that correct?

    16 A. Yes. I believe that to be correct, because

    17 when we reached the parking area, I went to report to

    18 Vlado, and when he saw him, there was no problem.

    19 As far as trench digging is concerned, there

    20 were no records. Vlado didn't dispose of any kind of

    21 records as to who went trench digging. We were taken

    22 away by night. There were no lists of who had to go

    23 trench digging. Had Vlado known that I was there,

    24 maybe I wouldn't have stayed there at all, let other

    25 people dig. Just an example I'm giving. Because there

  52. 1 was no record that was kept by the HVO. We were

    2 usually taken around midnight, when everybody was

    3 asleep, Vlado, Mario and others. Only the thugs would

    4 appear and they would take us away. There were no

    5 records that were being regularly kept. People didn't

    6 know that we were there.

    7 So in that regard, I was lucky that things

    8 turned out that way for me.

    9 Q. You mentioned Miroslav Bralo and how you were

    10 told by other people that this person that you saw at

    11 this Bungalow on the occasion that you went to Kaonik

    12 camp --

    13 A. Could I have the volume turned up a little

    14 bit, please? This one -- I cannot hear this one very

    15 well.

    16 Q. Can you hear me now?

    17 A. No. Let's replace that. The other woman

    18 speaks very nice.

    19 Q. Can you hear the translator?

    20 A. Now it's okay, even too good.

    21 Q. Now, you mentioned that you were told that

    22 this person was called Miroslav Bralo?

    23 A. Turn him down a little bit. Yes.

    24 Q. Who told you that, that he was Miroslav

    25 Bralo?

  53. 1 A. While we were sitting there, when we arrived

    2 at that location, there were some HVO soldiers there,

    3 and there were also some of our people who knew him,

    4 because I would have introduced myself. I thought it

    5 was some kind of joke when he forced us to make a sign

    6 of the cross. I knew he was not crazy, but I thought

    7 that we better keep silent and let's see how things

    8 will turn.

    9 There were some other football players, I

    10 mean, people who used to play soccer with me before

    11 that, and we were discussing who he was, and at that

    12 point I learned who he was.

    13 Q. When you were told who he was, had you also

    14 been told that he was involved in a significant event

    15 earlier in 1993, an incident, a killing?

    16 A. I don't know whether it was in '93, but

    17 everybody knew, in Vitez, that he had tied a man to the

    18 bed and blew him up, and he was gone. Everybody knew

    19 that in Vitez. Only I didn't know who that person

    20 was. And it was up there at the location that I

    21 learned about him, and I just kept silent.

    22 Q. Do you know the man's name who was blown up?

    23 A. I think he was a shopkeeper. I think that

    24 Vlado would know his name, because he worked at the

    25 MUP. I believe it was Eso. Was it?

  54. 1 Q. Do you know what village he lived?

    2 A. It happened down there in the area of Santici

    3 or Nadioci. I don't know exactly where, but in the

    4 lower area, in any case.

    5 Q. If we can go back to when you were allowed to

    6 go and see a doctor. Were you subsequently given a

    7 sickness certificate by the doctor?

    8 A. They wrote a prescription for me, which also

    9 indicated that I should be spared from work, and I made

    10 that prescription available to you. I had to be spared

    11 from work for three days, and there was supposed to be

    12 a check-up on the 28th.

    13 That was at the health centre in our town.

    14 It was some kind of infirmary. Muhamed was there,

    15 Bosko was there as well. We had a kind of mini

    16 hospital there, and Muhamed examined me. He's a

    17 Muslim, and Bosko was a Serb. So it was valid. I

    18 mean, the prescription was valid and I had to be spared

    19 from work for three days.

    20 Q. You were given a certificate -- sorry for

    21 interrupting.

    22 You were given a sickness certificate; is

    23 that right?

    24 A. To a --

    25 JUDGE MAY: Yes, we've spent about

  55. 1 five minutes on this. Let's produce the certificate

    2 and let's move on, please.

    3 MR. SMITH:

    4 Q. I'll just produce a certificate, and if you

    5 tell the court if, in fact, that's a copy of the one

    6 that you received.

    7 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 271.

    8 A. Yes. This is the certificate with the

    9 prescription for medicine. I can't read very well the

    10 doctor's handwriting. I got something for my stomach.

    11 You can also see that I was to be spared from work from

    12 the 26th to the 28th of April, and on the 28th I was

    13 returned to Vitez. Bosko signed the paper and Muhamed

    14 did too.

    15 Dr. Muhamed is a much better doctor than

    16 Bosko. Bosko's not much of a physician, but Muhamed,

    17 he's the real physician.

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: Is there an English

    19 translation?

    20 MR. SMITH:

    21 There is no English translation at this

    22 stage, Your Honour, but one can be supplied and

    23 tendered at a later time.

    24 Q. After receiving that sickness certificate you

    25 went back to the cinema; is that correct?

  56. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. Then you were released on the 30th of April

    3 from the cinema?

    4 A. We were released -- I mean, not all of us.

    5 At that time I thought that we would all be released.

    6 There was a cease-fire there, and the exchange took

    7 place on the 30th of April.

    8 Q. And then you went back to your apartment and

    9 subsequently left Vitez one or two days later, is that

    10 right?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. Why did you leave Vitez?

    13 A. Because it was not such a good idea to stay.

    14 Q. For what reason? Why didn't you think it was

    15 a good idea to stay?

    16 A. Because it was worse to be in an apartment

    17 than in the cinema. If you stayed at your apartment

    18 you could be taken away any day, any night, and if you

    19 have a family, you risk too much. That's how I

    20 decided, in view of the situation, which was not very

    21 good, and especially in view of the fact that I had a

    22 very nasty neighbour on the third floor, I thought I

    23 could be killed any time, so I decided to leave.

    24 Q. Have you moved back to Vitez since?

    25 A. How do you mean?

  57. 1 Q. Have you moved back to live in Vitez since

    2 you left in 1993?

    3 A. Nobody returned.

    4 MR. SMITH: No further questions, Your

    5 Honour.

    6 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. We will break now

    7 for 30 minutes.

    8 --- Recess taken at 3.33 p.m.

    9 --- On resuming at 4.00 p.m.

    10 MR. SMITH: Excuse me, Your Honour. I

    11 omitted to tender the documents, 267, 268, 269, and 271

    12 into evidence.

    13 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Counsel

    14 Pavkovic?

    15 MR. PAVKOVIC: Your Honours, I will be

    16 cross-examining the witness. I only have a few brief

    17 questions.

    18 (The witness entered court)

    19 MR. PAVKOVIC: I will be followed by Counsel

    20 Radovic and then by Counsel Slokovic-Glumac.

    21 Cross-examined by Mr. Pavkovic:

    22 Q. Good afternoon, Witness. My name is Petar

    23 Pavkovic. I am Defence counsel for Vlado Santic.

    24 A. Pleased to meet you.

    25 Q. I will be brief. I will try to clarify

  58. 1 certain things.

    2 You mentioned several times today that it was

    3 very important to know someone during those difficult

    4 times.

    5 A. Is that a question?

    6 Q. No, I'm waiting for the question to be

    7 translated. I'm afraid I'm not --

    8 A. What do we need an interpreter for? You and

    9 I can understand each other.

    10 Q. Yes, but others have to follow us as well.

    11 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, I don't have

    12 any indication that other people can hear us as well.

    13 Okay.

    14 Q. So we understand each other. It was very

    15 important during those times to know someone. It was

    16 more important than anything else.

    17 A. Yes, it's normal.

    18 Q. It was also some sort of guarantee that you

    19 would be able to save your head. Could you please say

    20 it? Could you state your opinion in answer to my

    21 question?

    22 A. Well, that proved to be true in my case.

    23 Q. I hope we can understand each other. We

    24 speak more or less the same language.

    25 A. Yes, it meant a lot in my case. In view of

  59. 1 the location where I was, that was important. It was

    2 important to know someone. I didn't know that Vlado

    3 was there at the Bungalow.

    4 Q. This is something that we will discuss later

    5 on. But tell me, when you met Vlado, at that point,

    6 you were quite satisfied, you were pleased to see him?

    7 A. Yes, I was. Of course.

    8 Q. You spoke about the danger you were exposed

    9 to while digging trenches, danger that came from both

    10 sides.

    11 A. That was my impression. That's my personal

    12 opinion.

    13 Q. Yes. Your encounter with Cicko and your

    14 experience with digging trenches, it was a relief for

    15 you to see Vlado.

    16 A. Well, when I saw him, it meant that I could

    17 move on.

    18 Q. Does that mean that Vlado let you go, that he

    19 spared you from digging trenches, and that he also

    20 saved you, saved your life; can we agree on that?

    21 A. Yes, we can.

    22 Q. Because I heard you say thank you to Vlado.

    23 You haven't had the opportunity to do so so far.

    24 A. Yes, because people were getting killed by

    25 trench-digging. I'm sure there are documents about

  60. 1 that. There were a lot of casualties while digging

    2 trenches.

    3 Q. So when Vlado referred you to someone else,

    4 to somewhere else, it meant that you were saved?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. This is the way I understood. You stated

    7 explicitly. You thanked him for that.

    8 A. Yes, that's quite clear.

    9 Q. You spoke about a person by the name of

    10 Cicko. You said few good things about him in the way

    11 you spoke.

    12 A. Well, I knew him. I knew what kind of

    13 history he had, and I told you what I heard.

    14 Q. As far as I could understand, you thought

    15 that Vlado was a serious man.

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. So you concluded on that day that Vlado was

    18 in charge in relation to Cicko?

    19 A. Yes, that's normal.

    20 Q. Just because you knew that he was a serious

    21 man?

    22 A. Yeah, not only because of that, but that the

    23 other guy could not be a commander.

    24 Q. Is that your assumption?

    25 A. Well, I don't know whether Vlado was a

  61. 1 commander or not, and this is what I said.

    2 Q. Yes, and that's what's important for me. You

    3 can also assume these things.

    4 A. Yes, and I wouldn't venture any further. I

    5 don't have any kind of document that Vlado was a

    6 commander or that Cicko was a commander.

    7 Q. So you merely stated your opinion.

    8 A. Yes, on the basis of the fact that Cicko

    9 could not send me from that location.

    10 Q. Very well. Thank you. Tell us, please, the

    11 driver, Cico, Cica -- what's his name?

    12 A. Cico.

    13 Q. You didn't really see him ask Vlado, you are

    14 merely assuming that he asked Vlado about you?

    15 A. Yes, that's my assumption again, because we

    16 stopped at the Bungalow.

    17 Q. Yes, but there were other people at the

    18 Bungalow?

    19 A. No, I saw him. I said hello to him. I'm not

    20 quite clear what exactly is it that you want.

    21 Q. You don't understand my question?

    22 A. Yes. And I would like to clarify certain

    23 things with you.

    24 Q. I would like to see what you heard, what you

    25 experienced as far as that conversation is concerned,

  62. 1 and I would also like to know what your assumptions

    2 are.

    3 A. Okay.

    4 Q. You have understood me?

    5 A. Yes, I have.

    6 Q. When the Prosecutor asked you whether they

    7 wore, these gentlemen, Cicko and Vlado, whether they

    8 wore any patches, you stated that they only had HVO

    9 patches on.

    10 A. Yes. I didn't see any other patches. There

    11 may have been other patches as well, but I didn't see

    12 them.

    13 Q. Therefore, there was nothing else on the

    14 basis of which you could come to a conclusion as to the

    15 person in charge?

    16 A. You're not very clear.

    17 Q. Let us suppose you didn't know either of

    18 them; you only saw the way they were dressed.

    19 A. This is not on the basis of that that I

    20 reached my conclusions.

    21 Q. So how did you reach your conclusions as to

    22 the person in charge?

    23 A. It was not on the basis of that.

    24 Q. Yes, but I would like you to tell me --

    25 A. Well, how -- what kind of conclusions would

  63. 1 you make? because there was one person at the trench

    2 and there was another person who was far away from the

    3 trench.

    4 Q. Yes, but that's not the only fact on the

    5 basis of which you can make some conclusions as to the

    6 person in charge. There may have been someone who was

    7 merely visiting there.

    8 A. Well, obviously you haven't been in a war.

    9 Q. Yes, but that's why you are here.

    10 A. I told you. I told you about what I saw and

    11 what I heard.

    12 Q. Well, let us try to sum up then. Is it true

    13 to say, and would you agree with me, that you concluded

    14 that Vlado was in charge because your idea of Vlado is

    15 that he was a serious man.

    16 A. Well, you cannot really say that, the way --

    17 according to my appearance, one would think that I'm a

    18 commander of a corps. You cannot simply base your

    19 conclusions on that.

    20 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, we have a collision

    21 between questions and answers, and I don't think it's

    22 terribly fair to the witness to have his answer being

    23 overridden by counsel.

    24 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Pavkovic, could you

    25 kindly wait a few seconds. Slow down when you speak.

  64. 1 Could you also refrain from asking leading questions?

    2 Thank you.

    3 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, I don't have

    4 any further questions. I have received all the answers

    5 that I wanted. Thank you.

    6 And thank you, Mr. Zaim.

    7 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Counsel Pavkovic.

    8 Counsel Radovic?

    9 Cross-examined by Mr. Radovic:

    10 Q. My questions will be somewhat funnier. You

    11 were a member of a soccer club.

    12 A. Yes I was.

    13 Q. What was the name of that soccer club?

    14 A. The club changed its name very often.

    15 Q. Well, let's refer to the period of '92-'93?

    16 A. There was no soccer at that time.

    17 Q. So how long did the club last?

    18 A. Well, it closed down in '91-'92. I used to

    19 play in a village near Travnik. It was a very good

    20 club. Do you know anything about that club?

    21 Q. No, not really. I'm not really interested in

    22 soccer. The reason I'm asking the question is because

    23 I'm interested in the membership of that football

    24 club. Was that a Muslim football club, a Croat

    25 football club, or what?

  65. 1 A. At the time where I played soccer, I was the

    2 only Muslim there. It was at Dolac. I was the

    3 captain, and they were all Croats.

    4 Q. Was it a mixed membership?

    5 A. It was a mixed membership. Even today, all

    6 soccer clubs are mixed.

    7 Q. Yes, but I'm referring to the period of

    8 '92-'93?

    9 A. Well, people didn't play soccer at that

    10 time. There was a war going on.

    11 Q. Tell us, in addition to that soccer club, was

    12 there anything else in Vitez, any other kind of

    13 cultural organisation in Vitez?

    14 A. Well -- are you from Croatia?

    15 Q. Yes, I am.

    16 A. So whatever you had in Croatia, we had in

    17 Vitez as well.

    18 Q. Do you know of any folk club, culture club in

    19 Vitez?

    20 A. It's the Napredak from Vitez that you have in

    21 mind?

    22 Q. Yes.

    23 A. But it used to be called Slobodan Princip

    24 Selo.

    25 Q. You're right about that. It was called

  66. 1 Slobodan Princip Selo. How long did it exist?

    2 A. I was not really involved in folk dancing.

    3 Q. Well, I was not interested in -- I'm not

    4 interested in soccer and you're not interested in

    5 culture. It's nice to have something on a lighter note

    6 in the courtroom because there's been a lot of serious

    7 business.

    8 A. Well, you've taken it too seriously.

    9 Q. Tell me now, going back to this subject, how

    10 long did this cultural and arts society exist? Do you

    11 know how long it was active for?

    12 A. No, I don't.

    13 Q. Well, nothing more. Thank you.

    14 Just one more question, I beg your pardon.

    15 Do you know of the brothers Kupreskic in the cultural

    16 and arts society?

    17 A. Well, you should have asked me in concrete

    18 terms. I knew Vlatko. He played the harmonica. He

    19 went to school with me. You should have asked in

    20 concrete terms.

    21 Q. I'm not Vlatko's Defence counsel, I'm the

    22 Defence counsel for his relations. I'm interested in

    23 Zoran and Mirjan.

    24 A. I don't know them personally.

    25 Q. Have you heard anything about them?

  67. 1 A. Well, looking at them now, perhaps -- I don't

    2 know. Perhaps they don't know me either.

    3 Q. Well, I'm not going to ask you if you don't

    4 know.

    5 A. Yes. Don't ask me then.

    6 MR. RADOVIC: Thank you. Nothing vital has

    7 been lost, Your Honours. Thank you.

    8 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Slokovic-Glumac?

    9 Cross-examined by Ms. Slokovic-Glumac:

    10 Q. Good afternoon.

    11 A. Would you introduce yourself, please?

    12 Q. I am Defence counsel Slokovic-Glumac.

    13 A. Pleased to meet you.

    14 Q. Let me ask you something with regard to the

    15 cinema. How many people were in the cinema --

    16 approximately, of course?

    17 A. How do you mean?

    18 Q. I mean the Muslims, when you were taken

    19 there.

    20 A. In the basement where I was or in the cinema

    21 proper as a whole?

    22 Q. Yes, how many people would you say there were

    23 there?

    24 A. There were quite a lot of us, about 300.

    25 Q. You said that your families could bring you

  68. 1 something to eat and that entrance was relatively free.

    2 A. Yes, but my wife was afraid and she came on

    3 the third day --

    4 Q. Well, that's not my point -- my problem.

    5 A. Yes, you're right.

    6 Q. Tell me, please, you said that this was a

    7 cinema and that those inside were under the control of

    8 the HVO. That's what the Prosecutor asked you.

    9 A. Yes, we were under this kind of control.

    10 Q. You said that you felt safer in the cinema

    11 than you would have been had you been outside. That's

    12 what you said. I noted this.

    13 A. What do you mean by saying "outside"?

    14 Q. When you were outside the cinema building,

    15 had you been in your apartment at home.

    16 A. Yes, that's another matter. It is my opinion

    17 that I was safer in the cinema rather than in my

    18 apartment, and if Prkacin came to kill me -- you see?

    19 They all know who Prkacin is. They're laughing.

    20 Q. So that means that there were people who were

    21 extremists. They were more extreme than the ones who

    22 controlled you in the cinema. You were not maltreated,

    23 you were not beaten up.

    24 A. Yes, that's true. Somebody at the parking

    25 lot wanted to kill me, and you know who lives up above

  69. 1 me: Marko with a sniper living up above.

    2 Q. You also mentioned one other thing, and that

    3 was that in the cinema, in the building which is where

    4 the cinema was located, that there was also the command

    5 of the HVO, the Vitez Brigade.

    6 A. Not where the cinema was but up above the

    7 boiler room where I was. Gerin had an office there,

    8 Muazem.

    9 Q. You said that that was why you felt safer.

    10 A. Yes, because you can't be killed in the

    11 basement whereas up above you can.

    12 Q. Tell me, please, who guarded you, in fact?

    13 Did you have guards? Did you see any guards?

    14 A. Well, I would go from the basement up above

    15 in front of the cinema, and there would be the HVO

    16 police. Everybody used to go there because the hotel

    17 is there.

    18 Q. Have you been to Vitez?

    19 A. Yes, I have.

    20 Q. So you were guarded by the police; is that

    21 correct?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. Not the HVO army but the police.

    24 A. Well, it's the same, the HVO and the police.

    25 Q. No, it's not the same.

  70. 1 A. Well, not the HVO -- is not army.

    2 Q. That's why I'm asking you. The HVO and HVO

    3 police; isn't that the same for you? For me, it is.

    4 A. Well, it's not quite the same, and the army

    5 and the police aren't the same either. We know that

    6 everybody was in the police. You don't know this very

    7 well yourself.

    8 Q. So all the soldiers of the HVO were in the

    9 police; is that what you wanted to say?

    10 A. Well, I can't explain to you when you weren't

    11 a soldier. I don't know what you want to ask me, in

    12 fact.

    13 Q. I'm asking you who was guarding you. It's

    14 quite easy. There are no tricks. I said the police,

    15 the HVO police.

    16 A. Very well. Ah, you can ask questions more

    17 slowly. You were going too fast. So you slow down too

    18 and I will too.

    19 Q. Did you see any insignia on their uniforms,

    20 the people guarding you, or didn't you?

    21 A. The HVO, you mean?

    22 Q. Yes, the HVO.

    23 A. Yes. They had the white thing across here

    24 and it says "Police." "Sabirna Police." And whenever

    25 I would go up, if he was there, if I knew him, then I

  71. 1 would be upstairs. If there was somebody I didn't

    2 know, I would go down to my basement.

    3 Q. Tell me, please, whether you know to what

    4 unit Miroslav Bralo, nicknamed Cicko, had belonged.

    5 You said that you did not know that he was in an HVO

    6 uniform on that day; is that what you said?

    7 A. No, I didn't.

    8 Q. Is that what you wrote down?

    9 A. Will you repeat your question, please?

    10 Q. Do you know to what unit Miroslav Bralo

    11 belonged?

    12 A. The HVO.

    13 Q. Just HVO? No other units?

    14 A. Where?

    15 Q. Now I'm going to ask you. In Vitez.

    16 A. Yes, there were units. There was the HOS,

    17 there were the Black Shirts, the Jokers. There was

    18 everything there.

    19 Q. Was there anybody else?

    20 A. I don't know. You know that.

    21 Q. You were there.

    22 A. Where?

    23 Q. In Vitez.

    24 A. Do you think I have to know everything?

    25 Q. Who were the Black Shirts, to your mind? Who

  72. 1 were the Black Shirts? The HOS?

    2 A. Darko -- the thing that Darko was a member

    3 of.

    4 Q. Who were they?

    5 A. They know better than I know. I don't know

    6 everything. I can't know everything.

    7 Q. What about the Vitezovi?

    8 A. I don't know. There were people from

    9 Herzegovina and all kinds.

    10 Q. Did you know about a unit called the

    11 Skorpion?

    12 A. No. Where were they?

    13 Q. I'm doing the asking. Tell me, please, what

    14 kind of uniforms did you see on that particular day?

    15 Was it the police taking you out of the cinema?

    16 A. You mean trench-digging? No, it wasn't the

    17 police.

    18 Q. It wasn't? Who was it?

    19 A. Just camouflage uniforms, the HVO.

    20 Q. How were you able to differentiate between

    21 the police and the regular HVO members?

    22 A. Well, the police had the white patches and it

    23 said "Police" -- some of them, not all of them, of

    24 course -- but those who were in the cinema guarding us

    25 were policemen, mostly.

  73. 1 Q. And the ones that took you away, who were

    2 they?

    3 A. From Cajdras. I don't know who they were.

    4 Q. Were they HVO?

    5 A. Well, not the army.

    6 Q. Not the army. I keep asking you whether it

    7 was the police or the HVO. Would you listen to me?

    8 A. I'm listening to you all the time.

    9 Q. Who was it? Who took you trench-digging?

    10 A. A young man wearing a camouflage uniform took

    11 me.

    12 Q. Very well. Did he have any insignia apart

    13 from the HVO?

    14 A. I didn't see what he had.

    15 Q. You said that when you found yourself at the

    16 trenches, when you were taken to dig trenches, that the

    17 HVO soldiers who were in the trenches and you who went

    18 digging were equally afraid of Cicko; is that correct?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. Tell us then, please, why you think that the

    21 HVO soldiers were afraid of him as well.

    22 A. I could see that.

    23 Q. How could you tell?

    24 A. Well, they said so themselves. They said

    25 they were afraid.

  74. 1 Q. Did he threaten them?

    2 A. No, he didn't.

    3 Q. Did he issue any orders?

    4 A. Not in front of me.

    5 Q. Who else was there with you trench-digging?

    6 A. How do you mean?

    7 Q. Who was with you except you yourself?

    8 A. Of the Muslims or the Croats?

    9 Q. The Muslims.

    10 A. Well, there were other people too.

    11 Q. How many of them?

    12 A. In that particular group, in my group, 15 to

    13 20 of us. I don't know exactly.

    14 Q. Thank you. Very well. Did Cicko threaten

    15 them?

    16 A. Only when they made the sign of the cross.

    17 Cicko didn't go trench-digging with us up there, he

    18 remained in the building. He didn't do the digging, I

    19 did the digging.

    20 Q. So the HVO soldiers, that they were afraid

    21 you know from their stories, but you saw nothing to

    22 illustrate this?

    23 A. What should I have seen?

    24 Q. Well, seen him threatening them or

    25 something.

  75. 1 A. Well, he's not going to threaten them in

    2 front of me. All I saw was that they were afraid.

    3 There were Serbs up at the frontline too, not only the

    4 Croats. In the colony, there were Serbs living there

    5 and digging -- and were in the HV up at the frontline.

    6 Q. Now, the physician that you mentioned, the

    7 doctor you went to see for an examination, this was

    8 Dr. Muhamed Mujezinovic, wasn't it?

    9 A. Yes, it was.

    10 Q. He was a regular doctor, a full-time doctor

    11 at the health centre there?

    12 A. How do you mean? In which health centre?

    13 Q. Well, the health centre in Vitez.

    14 A. No, it wasn't a health centre there, it was

    15 just a shelter. I was taken to a shelter.

    16 Q. And that was where the other doctor was as

    17 well; I don't remember his name.

    18 A. His name was Bosko. Pasko Pavlic.

    19 Q. Was this an improvised centre?

    20 A. How do you mean? I don't know what you want

    21 to say.

    22 Q. Had that existed earlier or was it

    23 improvised?

    24 A. No, they were shops previously. You would go

    25 to the basement for shelter. You would make a bed

  76. 1 there and somebody would come there, whereas the real

    2 health centre was underneath the cinema, below the

    3 cinema. Stari Vitez is across the road.

    4 Q. And Dr. Mujeznovic worked there, did he?

    5 What is he by nationality, ethnically?

    6 A. You're provoking me. You really are

    7 provoking me. You knew very well that he is a Bosniak,

    8 a Muslim, and you're asking what ethnic group he

    9 belongs to.

    10 JUDGE CASSESE: Witness, I would ask you to

    11 be respectful.

    12 A. Yes, very well. But I would like her to

    13 refrain from provoking me and to put the questions to

    14 me properly.


    16 Q. You are talking to the Trial Chamber. The

    17 Trial Chamber does not know who a Croat is and who was

    18 a Muslim. So I think that you ought to behave better.

    19 Tell us, please, whether Dr. Mujeznovic was

    20 arrested in the cinema; do you know that?

    21 A. He could not have been at two places at the

    22 same time. If he was up there, he could not have been

    23 in the cinema.

    24 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Very well. Thank you

    25 very much.

  77. 1 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Counsel

    2 Slokovic-Glumac.

    3 I wonder, Mr. Smith, whether you would like

    4 to re-examine the witness?

    5 MR. SMITH: Yes, Mr. President.

    6 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Briefly, I hope,

    7 so that we can move on to our next witness? Thank

    8 you.

    9 Re-examined by Mr. Smith:

    10 MR. SMITH: Yes, I will be brief.

    11 Q. Mr. Kablar, you said that you felt safer in

    12 the cinema than in your apartment; that's correct?

    13 A. Before? Before I left the camp? Because it

    14 was safer for me to remain there than to go back to my

    15 apartment, yes. Again, this is my personal opinion,

    16 that it was better to stay at the cinema hall than to

    17 go back to your apartment after the 30th of April

    18 because there was this young man who wanted to kill me

    19 when I was at the parking lot. So it was not safe for

    20 me or my family, my family consists only of females,

    21 they could have easily found shelter somewhere else,

    22 but for me, being a male, it was not -- it was more

    23 dangerous. Maybe I'm not right, but this is my

    24 opinion.

    25 When I was released from the cinema hall, I

  78. 1 didn't even intend to go back to my apartment. I

    2 wanted to leave the town of Vitez. It was a very

    3 complicated situation.

    4 Q. But you were taken trench-digging from the

    5 cinema; is that correct?

    6 A. Yes, yes.

    7 Q. You mentioned that you felt that because

    8 Vlado Santic knew you, that's what assisted in your

    9 release from the trench-digging duties. Do you know if

    10 any of the other 15 or 20 men that were trench-digging

    11 with you were released by Vlado Santic in the same

    12 manner that you were?

    13 A. Vlado Santic was not at the line where we did

    14 the digging, but others were returned afterwards, maybe

    15 five or six hours later on. They were all returned to

    16 the cinema hall because when I got to the cinema hall,

    17 I saw others there. There was this young man who had

    18 an injured arm and there were other young men who were

    19 not feeling well, so they were all returned five or six

    20 hours later. As to who issued orders and who did what,

    21 I don't know.

    22 Now, I didn't go back there. Had I not been

    23 returned, it's very difficult to know whether others

    24 would have returned from the line as well because there

    25 were no records, as I said, that were kept. We were

  79. 1 all usually taken during the night. Cicko did not have

    2 any list with people digging trenches. And there was

    3 only this young man who left us at the barracks in

    4 Kaonik, he only had the number of prisoners that he was

    5 supposed to return.

    6 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.

    7 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. So I think we may

    8 release the witness.

    9 Mr. Kablar, thank you so much for giving

    10 evidence in court. You may now be released. Thank

    11 you.

    12 THE WITNESS: Thank you too.

    13 (The witness withdrew)

    14 JUDGE CASSESE: I'm afraid we will have to

    15 stop at 5.00 sharp, but 30 minutes will be --

    16 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Yes, Your Honour. The next

    17 witness is a protected witness, name and face

    18 protection, and will be EE.

    19 JUDGE CASSESE: EE. Yes. And is No. 6 on

    20 your old list.

    21 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Yes. Your Honour,

    22 Mr. President, while we are waiting for the witness,

    23 just to notify the Court and Defence counsel of a

    24 slight change in order for tomorrow.

    25 After No. 6 on our list, we would then call

  80. 1 No. 9 and then, I believe, number 8 and then, I

    2 believe, number 10.

    3 (The witness entered court)

    4 JUDGE CASSESE: Good afternoon. Would you

    5 please make the solemn declaration?

    6 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

    7 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

    8 truth.

    9 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be

    10 seated.


    12 Examined by Mr. Moskowitz:

    13 Q. Good afternoon, Witness EE. I am now going

    14 to hand you, with the help of the usher --

    15 A. Good afternoon.

    16 Q. -- a slip of paper with your name on it.

    17 Please look at it, do not read it out loud, but

    18 indicate whether that, in fact, is your name by "Yes"

    19 or "No."

    20 A. Yes.

    21 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 272.


    23 Q. Now, Madam, you have requested that certain

    24 protections be granted you by the Tribunal and, in

    25 fact, they have been granted so that your name and your

  81. 1 face are protected and that therefore you need not fear

    2 but you can provide full and complete testimony at the

    3 Tribunal.

    4 Furthermore, should there be questions that

    5 we need to ask you, such as questions regarding your

    6 house or your family members that might indicate your

    7 identity, then we will request to go into closed

    8 session, and if that request is granted by the

    9 Tribunal, that would mean that your voice would not

    10 leave this room and would not be heard by anyone

    11 outside this room, and so that you could then feel

    12 confident to provide full and complete testimony about

    13 those matters as well.

    14 Do you understand what I've said, and do you

    15 have any questions at all?

    16 A. I understand you.

    17 Q. Just to start, could you tell us when you

    18 were born and what village you lived in up until 1993?

    19 A. I was born on the 12th of February, 1952

    20 until the 16th of April, 1993 I lived in the village of

    21 Ahmici.

    22 Q. And without giving us any names, could you

    23 tell us who the members or what the composition of your

    24 family was in 1993, on April 16th?

    25 A. I had a husband, a daughter and a son.

  82. 1 Q. Could you tell us the ages of your daughter

    2 and son in 1993?

    3 A. My daughter was 12, about 12 years of age;

    4 and my son was 9, nine and a half years old.

    5 Q. Could you tell us too what part of the

    6 village of Ahmici you lived in, what area or

    7 neighbourhood?

    8 A. I lived in the lower part of the village

    9 below the road.

    10 MR. MOSKOWITZ: At this time, Your Honour,

    11 I'm going to request that the witness use the map and

    12 demonstrate more specifically the location of her

    13 house. I would request that we go into closed

    14 session.

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. We'll go into closed

    16 session.

    17 (Closed session)

    18 (redacted)

    19 (redacted)

    20 (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)

  83. 1












    13 Pages 4067 to 4074 redacted in closed session









    22 --- Whereupon hearing adjourned at 4.46 p.m.,

    23 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 8th

    24 day of October, 1998, at 9.30 a.m.