1 Tuesday, 13th September, 1998
2 (The accused entered court)
3 (Open session)
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-95-16-T, the
6 Prosecutor versus Zoran Kupreskic, Mirjan Kupreskic,
7 Vlatko Kupreskic, Drago Josipovic, Dragan Papic and
8 Vladimir Santic also know as "Vlado".
9 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Good morning.
10 Let me take advantage of these few seconds or
11 minutes before the witness is brought in. First of
12 all, I it may sound pedantic, but I wonder whether the
13 Prosecutor could be so kind as to give us a list of
14 witnesses according to the protective measures, because
15 now we've been a given a list with the names of the
16 various Prosecutors that are going to take the
17 examination-in-chief, but we need a list of the
18 protective measures to know -- if it is possible at
20 MR. MOSKOWITZ: The remaining witnesses for
21 this week do not have protective measures.
22 JUDGE CASSESE: None of them.
23 MR. MOSKOWITZ: That's correct. For this
24 week. We're not, of course, talking about the Court
25 witness that will appear today.
1 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. She asked for the
2 closed session. Thank you. I think Counsel
3 Slokovic-Glumac was still cross-examining the witness.
4 (The witness entered court)
5 MR. RADOVIC: Mr. President, one of the
6 accused has just advised me that they are not receiving
8 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I wonder whether
9 the usher would -- yes, so the earphones probably
10 should be changed.
11 Thank you. Counsel Glumac
12 Cross-examined by Ms. Slokovic-Glumac
14 Q. Good morning Your Honours.
15 We stopped yesterday when we were discussing
16 the village of Miletici and your visit to that
17 village. Can you please tell us what did you see
19 A. We arrived at the village and were directed
20 to a particular house where we found that -- well, we
21 entered the house and found a room that had been -- had
22 been destroyed to a certain extent, and there was blood
23 on the floor and on the walls.
24 Q. Did the local population, the people who
25 still remained in the village, tell you what had
1 happened in the village?
2 A. Yes, they did.
3 Q. What did they say?
4 A. We were told that a number of Mujahedin, and
5 if I'm not mistaken, the number was five, had come to
6 the village approximately three days prior to that
7 event. If I remember correctly, it was the 16th of
8 April when the reported murders had occurred, and that
9 they harassed the villagers and basically stayed in
10 that house.
11 We were told that there were -- there were
12 two brothers that lived in that house, and that they
13 were Croatian fighters, and supposedly these Mujahedin
14 were waiting for them to return from a frontline or
15 from somewhere. I think I was told the frontline.
16 We asked them -- oftentimes you can hear the
17 term "Mujahedin" being used as a term for Muslims in
18 general and so on. However, the woman that I spoke
19 with told me that no, these were foreigners, these were
20 definitely foreign Mujahedin, that that wasn't just a
22 Q. In your report, the number of people killed
23 is listed as five young Croats. Some of them had been
24 tortured. Does this correspond with the facts that you
25 were able to establish there?
1 A. As far as I remember, yes.
2 Q. It is also mentioned here that 27 out of the
3 34 Croatian inhabitants of the village had fled in fear
4 of those persons. Do you remember that?
5 A. I don't remember the exact numbers, but I
6 remember that this was brought to the attention of
7 British battalion and our attention, because the UNHCR
8 was afraid that the rest of the villagers would leave,
9 creating another humanitarian crisis, and the
10 representative of the UNHCR believed that the situation
11 could be controlled and that -- I believe that she was
12 trying to convince British battalion to go protect the
13 village, and so that she could return -- for some
14 reason I have the number 27 of 37, but more than half
15 of the village had left, if I'm not mistaken.
16 Q. You established, without a shadow of doubt,
17 that the victims were Croats?
18 A. We were told that the village was a Croatian
19 village. I'm not sure if all of the inhabitants were
20 Croat, but we were told it was a Croatian village and
21 the victims were indeed all Croats, and also that -- I
22 think that three of the five were not from the village
23 but the two brothers were from that house. I think
24 that they owned that house, or that was their family
25 home. I'm not really sure about those details.
1 Q. At the time when you visited that area, did
2 you visit other Croatian villages from which Croats had
3 fled? Do you remember anything about that?
4 A. Not in the context of fact finding. We did
5 travel around quite a bit, especially on the first
7 Q. Did you visit Zenica? Do you remember?
8 A. Yes, we visited Zenica.
9 Q. Did you notice any problems related to the
10 status of Croats at the time?
11 A. No, not really. Not at that time, no.
12 Q. In your report it is mentioned that arbitrary
13 executions and harassment was perpetrated by the
14 government forces, the BH army, that is, and that there
15 was a risk of reprisals for ethnic cleansing carried
16 out by Croats and Croatian forces against Croatian
17 civilians in cities such as Zenica, and that that risk
18 or that danger was very real.
19 A. I think that --
20 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Whereabouts in
21 the report are you reading from, please,
22 Mrs. Slokovic-Glumac?
23 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Third section,
24 "Conclusions", paragraph 40.
25 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. And the reference --
1 the earlier reference to the five Croats, where is
2 that, please?
3 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: That is in section 2,
4 paragraph 37, on the same page.
5 JUDGE MAY: Referring to the Vitez area.
6 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: No. That's the section
7 entitled "Arbitrary Executions by Government Forces in
8 the Vitez Area.
9 JUDGE MAY: It's not referring to Ahmici
10 itself but to the Vitez area, I think that should be
12 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Yes. But this is the
13 same time period and all the events were happening at
14 the same time, so the Prosecutor is also trying to show
15 us a broader picture and that's what we are trying to
16 do right now.
17 JUDGE MAY: Yes. But the reference in this
18 paragraph, so I can follow it, appears to be to
20 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Yes.
21 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Thank you.
22 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:
23 Q. Can you tell me, do you remember this portion
24 or you don't have any knowledge of this, relating to
25 the problems in Zenica that were taking place from the
1 16th onward?
2 A. There were many problems in that area at the
3 time. It wasn't a clear situation. There were
4 reported incidents throughout the valley, as well as
5 many other parts of Bosnia.
6 Q. But your mandate covered the whole of the
7 Lasva Valley as far as I understood. You were supposed
8 to submit a report on the human rights situation in the
9 whole area, not just in Ahmici. You included Vitez,
10 the surrounding area, you even noted down some problems
11 in the Zenica area. So this was -- all of this was
12 part of your mandate at the time. That's the reason
13 why I'm asking you whether you carried out any other
15 A. Only the two that I mentioned, plus you can
16 see that we included other information that was related
17 to us, to the best of our ability, what we had
18 available at the time. There was also -- I'm not
19 really sure which information was added by
20 Mr. Mazowiecki himself and his staff in Geneva. We
21 tried to cover the situation as much as possible.
22 Q. Did you talk to Colonel Stewart on those
24 A. On several occasions.
25 Q. Do you remember the 4th of May, that is
1 before you went to Ahmici, did you talk to Colonel
2 Stewart, you and Mr. Akhavan? That's before you left
3 for Ahmici, when you found that house.
4 A. I may have. I'm sure we talked in passing.
5 We spoke on many occasions. I'm sure we did.
6 Q. Do you remember were journalists with you on
7 that occasion? As far as I understand, they went with
8 you into the village, Andrew Hawke and Dan Damon from
9 Sunday Times. Do you remember?
10 A. There was an occasion when the Colonel was
11 having a meeting with the liaison staff from the two
12 conflicting parties in a house. I think that was the
13 ECMM liaison house, I'm not sure. There was a house
14 that was out of the base that was used for liaison
15 between the local authorities, and just a basic liaison
17 We waited in front of that house to speak
18 with the Colonel to see when we would be able to travel
19 to Ahmici. I think that was our purpose for waiting.
20 There were journalists that were in that meeting, then
21 they were excluded from that meeting, they were outside
22 and so on. I remember that they tried to interview us
23 but we were not authorised to give interviews and we
24 told them that we can't be interviewed at all, that
25 we're here just to write a report.
1 Q. All right. After your conversation with the
2 victims that you had met in Zenica, did you supply
3 Colonel Stewart with a list of names or mention some of
4 the people that you talked to, that they claimed that
5 some people had been perpetrators of the crimes in
6 Ahmici? So did you give any names to Colonel Stewart?
7 A. I don't believe so. We discussed at length
8 with his officers, but I don't believe that we gave
9 anything to British battalion. I'm not sure. It's
10 possible that something was handed over, but I don't
11 recollect any piece of paper. It was more of a
13 Q. Did you write down some of the names that
14 have been mentioned by the people from Ahmici, the
15 refugees? Did you write down those names?
16 A. The names of the perpetrators or the names of
17 the refugees, I'm sorry.
18 Q. Of the perpetrators.
19 A. I don't think so, no.
20 Q. So you state that you did not give any names
21 related to those events to Colonel Stewart?
22 A. No, I don't believe so.
23 Q. Did you, in any way, go to Vitez in those
25 A. Yes, we did, as a part of a patrol.
1 Q. Can you tell us, what did you establish
2 there? Did you go to Stari Vitez? Stari Vitez, that's
3 the Muslim part of Vitez?
4 A. Yes, I think it was the first day, the first
5 patrol that was for the benefit of the incoming
6 battalion. That was pointed out to us. We stopped, I
7 think very close to -- there seemed to be a division at
8 some point, a couple of streets, and that -- and we
9 stopped there and some things were pointed out to us.
10 Q. Did you notice any fortifications around
11 Stari Vitez, roadblocks, trenches, bunkers?
12 A. There were -- there were positions. There
13 were positions on several roads. There were armed
14 individuals in many areas, in Vitez and surrounding
16 Q. The presence -- you also noted the presence
17 of the BH army soldiers. Can you give us the number of
18 soldiers that you saw in Stari Vitez?
19 A. I don't know if I could. There were -- there
20 were men with weapons at different points. There was
21 one group of four at one place, there was another group
22 of maybe two or three. If I had to estimate how many I
23 saw in total, I probably would have seen as many as, I
24 don't know, 30, maybe 40, but that's just an estimate,
25 I never counted anyone.
1 Q. While you were there and when you visited
2 Stari Vitez, was there any sniper action out of Stari
4 A. There were no hostilities at the time, but we
5 were told -- I think when we drove very close to the
6 town and so on, I think the tank commander at that
7 point locked us down. It was an environment that
8 wasn't safe, so we were in a locked tank rather than in
9 something open where we could view.
10 Q. So there was no sniper fire from that area?
11 A. Not when we visited the area, no.
12 Q. Just one more thing regarding the notes that
13 you had with you yesterday, notes from which you read
14 the names of persons which you assumed you had found in
15 [redacted] house. Where did you get those notes?
16 A. Those notes were left, I assume, in my
17 office, and they were given to me by the Prosecution.
18 Q. The notes where you transcribed the contents
19 of the statement from the tape of (redacted) and
20 [redacted], so that's part of those notes; is that
22 A. Those are the notes. Those are the notes of
23 a combination of a transcription, translation and
24 recollection that I put down on paper, as I said, to
25 provide to any individuals who would be conducting a
1 future investigation. I believe that --
2 Q. I apologise for interrupting. This means
3 that notes and the notes with the names of the victims,
4 you got from the Prosecutor. So these are your notes
5 that you received from the Prosecutor; is that
7 A. They're not two separate notes, they're one
8 note. It's one document. I received a copy of this
9 from the Prosecutor, yes.
10 Q. Just a moment. Since the witness has
11 confirmed and authenticated these notes, I don't know
12 why the Defence has not been given a copy so that we
13 see what this is all about. These notes, after all,
14 can have a certain probative value. We think that the
15 Prosecutor should have supplied us with a copy of the
16 notes so that we can see what they are all about.
17 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Moskowitz?
18 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Yes, Your Honour. Well, it
19 was -- these notes, as we have them, are not statements
20 of any of the witnesses that have testified, because as
21 this witness has indicated, these are his notes and his
22 recollection of what transpired, and contain a sort of
23 combination of his recollection and what he could get
24 off the tapes of those two witnesses. So they're not
25 statements, they certainly were never signed by the
1 witnesses or reviewed by the witnesses. Nor, in our
2 view, were these statements of this witnesses. They
3 were simply his notes of what he recalled having
4 transpired between him and these witnesses. So it
5 appeared to us that this certainly did not fit into any
6 category that required disclosure. They are useful as
7 a diary, or any other document, might be useful to a
8 witness to assist him in recollecting what he, in fact,
9 remembered of these conversations, and that would be, I
10 think, the real focus of his testimony here today, as
11 to what he recollected, and that recollection can be
12 aided by his notes and his typewritten reports.
13 But we've had, I think, several witnesses who
14 have diaries and notes that they used to refresh their
15 recollection and have never been the subject of
16 disclosure, although, we are certainly not opposed to
17 providing those notes as we have them to both the Court
18 and Defence counsel for use in determining the truth of
19 these facts, and to determine the credibility of this
20 witness's recollection.
21 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. So you are prepared to
22 turn over to the Defence and the Court those notes.
23 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Right.
24 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Of course, we will not
25 treat those notes as a statement, but they do have
1 their probative value and a certain weight. Since the
2 Prosecutor has those notes and the witness has
3 authenticated them, I see no reason why the Defence
4 shouldn't be given those notes. Thank you very much.
5 JUDGE CASSESE: So you have decided. So you
6 will hand over to the Defence as soon as possible those
8 MR. MOSKOWITZ: I believe we can do that
9 today, probably later today. Or even now.
10 JUDGE CASSESE: Now, because --
11 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Yes.
12 JUDGE CASSESE: I think the Defence would
13 need those notes right away, because they go on with
14 the cross-examination and they may have to ask other
16 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Mr. President, I wanted
17 to say that as well. We would need them while the
18 witness is still here, and we're dealing with names and
19 not witness recollections. So very specific facts that
20 were supplied by other persons. So we need those to
21 determine whether we should ask some other questions in
22 the cross-examination. We would be very grateful if we
23 could receive them now.
24 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. I would suggest that
25 you should now, please, hand over those notes to the
1 Defence, as well as to the Court. And probably we
2 should now suspend the cross-examination of this
3 witness, because otherwise you can't use those notes in
4 continuing in your cross-examination.
5 We could probably bring in another witness
6 while you -- maybe we can resume the cross-examination
7 this afternoon so that you have the opportunity to go
8 through the notes. Would this be acceptable to you,
9 Mr. Moskowitz?
10 MR. MOSKOWITZ: It's certainly acceptable to
11 us, and I would -- I think the witness still has his
12 copy of his notes, but if not, we should provide him a
13 copy so he can also review it.
14 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, of course.
15 MR. MOSKOWITZ: And I will, at this time,
16 hand over -- it's a two-page document, and there is
17 typing on both sides of both pages, so it's basically
18 four pages in total.
19 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. I assume that -- I
20 mean, you may need the lunch break to go through it.
21 So we can't resume the cross-examination before 2.00.
22 Well, I'm sorry for the witness. You will have to stay
23 and -- have you got a copy of your notes?
24 A. Yes, I do, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. Thank you. So we
1 can now move on to our next witness, and so if you
2 don't mind, you will come back this afternoon.
3 A. I understand.
4 JUDGE CASSESE: We will go on with the
5 cross-examination, and then re-examination and then
6 probably a few questions from the Court.
7 A. Thank you Your Honour.
8 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
9 (The witness withdrew)
10 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, Counsel Pavkovic?
11 MR. PAVKOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours.
12 Mr. President, perhaps this is right, before the
13 witness is brought in, to do something, rather to
14 comply with my duty. I have the certificates that I
15 spoke about yesterday, and tendered them in English. I
16 now have them in the original. These are the papers
17 concerning the witness Sulejman Kavazovic. So may I
18 ask the usher to take them and give them to the Court
19 and to the Prosecution. I'm talking about those
20 certificates of the post office that were addressed
22 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. However, we can't admit
23 them into evidence before the Prosecution has had the
24 opportunity to go through those documents and check
25 whether the translation is accurate. You can tender
1 those documents, but we'll put off until, say, Friday,
2 any decision about their admission into evidence.
3 MR. PAVKOVIC: Right. Yes, all right. Thank
5 JUDGE CASSESE: While we are waiting for the
6 next witness, let me deal with a few housekeeping
7 matters. First of all, I wonder whether you have any
8 comments on the draft decision on the visit to Ahmici,
9 particular comments on the rules of conduct.
10 MR. PAVKOVIC: The Defence does not
11 Mr. President.
12 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. No comments. We
13 will issue this decision. As you know, the visit is on
14 unless there is an attack by NATO on Saturday, and we'll
15 have to cancel it at the very last minute. Otherwise, we
16 will go there on next Monday.
17 Now, let me also say that we are, of course,
18 grateful, as I said yesterday, to Counsel Pavkovic and
19 all the other Defence counsel for telling us in advance
20 of Friday of their wish to have a two-month break
21 between the Prosecution and Defence case, and
22 we should reciprocate by letting you know what we have
24 We think that it is in the best interests of
25 justice and of an expeditious trial that we should not
1 have such a long break but only a six-week break, so we
2 would resume on the 30th of November and so have three
3 weeks with the Defence case, three weeks before
4 Christmas, and then we will continue in January, but by
5 mid-February we should finish with this case, because
6 really, it is otherwise -- we are very keen on a speedy
8 I think the Defence would -- should have not
9 more than, say, seven to eight weeks for the Defence
10 case? So -- now, the Prosecutor had 34 working days.
11 There will be 37, probably. So roughly it's the
12 equivalent of seven, eight weeks.
13 Another piece of information that might be
14 interesting and useful to you before the Pre-Defence
15 conference, to be held on Friday, we have also decided
16 about the order in which the various witnesses should
17 be called by each Defence counsel, and we will follow
18 the order of the indictees listed in the indictment.
19 So first of all the witnesses for Zoran
20 Kupreskic, then Mirjan and so on. So, Counsel Radovic,
21 you will be the first one. It is more orderly and
22 better organised if each counsel knows in advance when
23 he will have to call his witness.
24 Yes, please, Counsel Radovic, please.
25 MR. RADOVIC: Thank you for the first place.
1 I should merely like to say that my witnesses and my
2 learned friend's witnesses are all combined. We shall
3 have a number of joint witnesses, so you can put the
4 two of us in one package so to speak. We should like
5 to question our witnesses together. I mean, most of
6 them. Especially those questions which relate to
7 persecution. There are some questions which may
8 perhaps refer solely to Mirjan, but most of our
9 witnesses will testify in favour of both our accused.
10 As I have already taken the floor, there will
11 be very many witnesses but some of them shall be very
12 brief. For instance, that tape which the Prosecution
13 admitted -- I mean, [redacted] in the hospital, we ask
14 the Prosecution to try to get the authentic tape so
15 that we can really see the whole interview from
16 beginning to end. We have not yet been answered that
17 by the Prosecution, whether they can do it and it would
18 be very important for us, because if we could see the
19 whole tape then we would not need any witnesses who saw
20 that particular programme in toto, and who know all
21 that [redacted] said. So if we had precise
22 information about that, perhaps we might give up some
23 of the witnesses, refrain from calling some of the
25 Besides, we shall not be able to examine our
1 witnesses as long as the Prosecution did, because we
2 were not able to technically follow old examinations
3 and old witnesses as the Prosecution were much worse
4 (sic) equipped. We shall do our best to match the
5 Prosecution but we simply don't have all these
6 technical facilities at our disposal. But we should
7 like to hear from the Prosecution if they could lay
8 their hands on the whole tape, that is the tape of the
9 whole programme. Thank you very much.
10 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Yes, Your Honour, and
11 Mr. Radovic, we have not ignored that request to try to
12 find the whole tape, and I anticipate that Mr. Tucker,
13 will be here later this week, the investigator, will
14 provide information about the whereabouts of that
15 tape. I know that he has made efforts to locate an
16 entire version, if there is an additional version to be
17 had, and has made inquiries and can report on what he
18 found when he testifies perhaps tomorrow or the next
20 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. All right. Let
21 me explain to you what is going on. We are now calling
22 the Court witness that we mentioned yesterday, but we
23 were told that because of a fire that broke out this
24 morning in her hotel she was a bit under shock, but
25 it's nothing to do with our hearing, so she will come
1 here. We asked her to calm down. We have decided that
2 somebody from the unit for protection of victims and
3 witnesses should sit in court within sight so she feels
4 a bit better, and then we will proceed. So in a few
5 seconds or minutes she will be here. She will be
6 witness CA. Yes, please.
7 Good morning, Witness CA.
8 THE WITNESS: Good morning.
9 JUDGE CASSESE: Can you please stand and read
10 the solemn declaration?
11 THE WITNESS: I am sorry, but I -- I'm not
12 literate. I can't read. Last time somebody read it
13 for me and he translated, and I then repeated words
14 after him.
15 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. We will do so.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Witness CA, I'll read it to
17 you and if you can just repeat, please. I will
18 solemnly declare.
19 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare.
20 THE REGISTRAR: That I will speak the truth.
21 THE WITNESS: That I will speak the truth.
22 THE REGISTRAR: The whole truth.
23 THE WITNESS: The whole truth.
24 THE REGISTRAR: And nothing but the truth.
25 THE WITNESS: And nothing the but the truth.
1 JUDGE CASSESE: We should go into closed
2 session, because the witness requested we go into
3 closed session.
4 (Closed session)
13 Pages 4555 to 4662 redacted – in closed session
24 (Open Session)
25 MR. MOSKOWITZ: Just to announce a slight
1 change in our remaining order, number 4, yes, will be
2 testifying next, Your Honour. After number 4 we plan
3 to put on number 7 because it involves the same kind of
4 evidence, and we felt it would be more logical to put
5 it in that record. Number 6, by the way, Your Honour,
6 is -- can only testify on Thursday because of his
7 commitments with the military. Then number 8 will be
8 available virtually -- would be available tomorrow, or
9 the next day.
10 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Thank you. I was
11 wondering whether we could try to finish by Thursday
12 afternoon so that on Friday morning we could hold the
13 pre-Defence conference.
14 MR. MOSKOWITZ: We feel that would be very
16 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. So we could have the
17 Friday afternoon off to prepare to go to Ahmici.
18 (The witness entered court).
19 JUDGE CASSESE: Good afternoon. Will you
20 please make the solemn declaration?
21 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
22 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
24 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be
1 WITNESS: Stephen Hughes
2 Examined by Mr. Terrier:
3 Q. Good afternoon, witness. Could you state
4 your identity, your full name to the Court and tell
5 when you were born?
6 A. My name is Stephen Hughes, and I was born on
7 the 19th of March, 1958.
8 Q. You were in Bosnia in 1993 as a member of the
9 UNPROFOR. Could you tell the Court what your military
10 career has been like?
11 A. I started my military career in 1974, and
12 retired recently in March 1998, serving 23 years and 6
13 months. The career has been varied, deployed to
14 various areas around the world, and I have been or was
15 promoted through the ranks to obtain my final rank of
16 Warrant Officer Class 2.
17 Q. When did you find yourself in Bosnia and
19 A. Between November 1992 to May 1993.
20 Q. When were you stationed in Vitez?
21 A. I was stationed in Vitez from November 1992
22 until late December 1992. We then moved to Tuzla, and
23 then in February 1993 we came back to Vitez and
24 remained there until we left Bosnia on May 1993.
25 Q. Let us look at this period in the beginning
1 of 1993. Could you tell the Court what your position
2 was then within the BRITBAT and what your various
3 missions were?
4 A. My position at that time, I was battalion
5 commander of 2 battalion, A company of the Cheshire
6 Regiment, and our mission at that stage was to assist
7 in the humanitarian aid that needed to be delivered to
8 various locations within Bosnia-Herzegovina.
9 Q. I will first ask you to tell the Court what
10 your recollection is of the 16th of April, 1993.
11 A. My recollection of that date was the
12 intensified fighting around the main Vitez area.
13 Q. On that day you were in Vitez; weren't you?
14 A. On that day, we were tasked, yes, to enter
15 into Vitez, due to the fact that there had been a large
16 explosion, and I was tasked to go into the centre of
17 Vitez to try and gain information to what the situation
18 was within Vitez itself.
19 Q. And on the basis of what you noticed, what
20 was the situation within Vitez on the 16th of April,
22 A. The situation was that by moving around the
23 area we formulated the opinion that the old town as we
24 called the part of Vitez, was under attack from HVO
1 Q. Were you able to notice any fighting among
2 hostile military units, opposing military units?
3 A. Upon entering Vitez there was fire. We did
4 notice -- or I noticed one wounded civilian crawling
5 along the road. I then moved into the centre of Vitez
6 to the area of the Vitez Hotel, moved south and then
7 along the road moving west, and I noticed in the small
8 built-up area a number of soldiers moving towards the
9 old part of Vitez. These soldiers were moving in what
10 we would call fire and manoeuvre. At this stage they
11 didn't seem to be firing but were moving in an
12 aggressive nature, again towards the old part of
14 Q. Those soldiers, which army did they belong
16 A. Obviously from the direction they were moving
17 and the direction they were moving in, it was
18 recognised that they were HVO.
19 Q. When you mentioned the old town of Vitez, do
20 you have the Muslim part, the Muslim neighbourhood in
22 A. Yes. We call that the old part of Vitez, the
23 Muslim area.
24 Q. On that day in Vitez did you notice any
25 opposition to the HVO soldiers?
1 A. Not really. We quickly moved around and
2 eventually I was placed in a static position near the
3 mosque in old Vitez, and there I remained until we
4 decided to try and evacuate as many people from the
5 situation as we could. However, listening to the radio
6 traffic, I could understand from other call-signs that
7 they were trying to put themselves in positions to stop
8 the attack on the old part of Vitez.
9 Q. At that time what did you think of what was
10 happening in Vitez?
11 A. On assessing the situation, I would say that
12 there was a concerted effort from the HVO to move and
13 take over the old part of Vitez.
14 Q. I'd like us to move to the next day, the
15 following day, the day -- the 17th of April, 1993.
16 Is it right to say that on that day you went
17 to Nadioci where the Bungalow or what is called the
18 Swiss Cottage is to be found?
19 A. Yes, that is correct. I was tasked out that
20 day to move into the area of the Bungalow, and also the
21 area of Putis Jelinak. At this point I'd stopped on
22 the road away from the area of the Bungalow, and I
23 happened to be observing to the south, the high ground
24 to the south of my position, when I noticed, or what I
25 believed to be, an anti-aircraft weapon on the high
2 Initially it was difficult to be a hundred
3 per cent sure it was an anti-tank -- or, I'm sorry, an
4 anti-aircraft weapon. I tried looking through normal
5 binoculars. Again, it didn't give me a hundred
6 per cent that it was. At that stage I decided to
7 traverse the turret on the vehicle and use the
8 gunsight, which has a better magnification. Again, at
9 this stage it became a little bit clearer, but I
10 wouldn't say, again, is that stage that it was a
11 hundred per cent, and there was still doubts.
12 However, whilst observing, I saw people
13 approach what I believed to be the anti-aircraft weapon
14 which was situated on what I would call a flatbed
15 trailer, a trailer with no sides. They mounted on to
16 the anti-aircraft gun and fired between three to six
17 rounds in what we would call the direct role towards
18 the west.
19 It was also at this stage that whilst
20 observing the area, I noticed two men sat on the
21 hillside observing towards the west. One had
22 binoculars, and the other one, I believe, had a large
24 Whilst observing these two men, I heard what
25 we call the report of either mortar or artillery being
1 fired from behind the hill.
2 Whilst observing, we then saw a vehicle move
3 from the location of the anti-aircraft gun and move
4 down the hill, and we tracked this as it came down. It
5 eventually stopped at our location, and it was gestured
6 to us that we should turn our gun away from pointing to
7 the high ground where the position of the anti-aircraft
8 gun was. We did this, and the jeep then proceeded down
9 the road and returned to the Bungalow.
10 Q. Would you be able to give us a summary
11 description of that Bungalow? What did that Bungalow
12 look like?
13 A. From the outside, as you look at the
14 Bungalow, it had a very steep roof. The roof looked as
15 though it started from ground level and went straight
16 up to an apex. At the base of the building was a small
17 veranda, and halfway up the building looked to be a
18 small balcony, and just above that looked again to be
19 another small balcony. There was a very large door at
20 the front. When you entered the Bungalow, on the
21 left-hand side was a brick fireplace, an arched
22 fireplace. In either the middle or to one side, I
23 think to the right, was a table of some sort, which I
24 believe at the time to have been a pool table. To the
25 rear and left was a small bar area, and right at the
1 rear were stairs leading up to the upper floors. The
2 interior of the building was wood panelling.
3 Q. Could the usher show you Exhibit 119, P119?
4 A building can be seen in the background. Is
5 that the Bungalow you've just been speaking about?
6 A. Yes, that's the Bungalow.
7 Q. Could the usher show you this document?
8 There are no markings nor highlighting on this
10 THE REGISTRAR: This will be marked P293.
11 MR. TERRIER:
12 Q. Witness, could you explain what this
14 A. This paperwork represents the radio log which
15 is kept in the operations room, and it logs all radio
16 traffic that is sent over the air.
17 Q. And on the top left corner we have the date,
18 haven't we? And then the times of radio traffic, as
19 well as the call-signs of the various people who were
20 intervening. What was your call-sign, your personal
22 A. My personal call-sign was Romeo Two Zero.
23 Q. Does this document show that on that day you
24 reported to your headquarters, to the Ops room, you
25 reported what you had witnessed in Nadioci, what you
1 just told us about?
2 A. Yes. The document actually states, in the
3 text, the times that I called the Ops room and informed
4 them of the situation.
5 Q. Could you tell us at what time you called the
6 Ops room?
7 A. The time was 15.39.
8 Q. Yes, you wanted to say something?
9 A. Just obviously further down is the second
10 message, which again was transmitted at 16.09.
11 Q. Thank you. In the aerial photograph which is
12 behind you, are you able to localise the place where
13 the Bungalow was built? Could you tell us where this
14 anti-aircraft piece of ordinance was in this
15 photograph? Maybe outside the field of this
16 photograph, but where the anti-aircraft gun was?
17 A. (Indicating). Up on the high ground, as it
18 would be on the photograph itself.
19 Q. So to the south, since, you know, it's upside
20 down. The photograph is upside down. So it's south
21 the place.
22 Could you now tell us what this gun was
23 targeting, what the target was?
24 A. At that stage all I knew was that it was
25 firing towards the west, but looking at the map and
1 taking what we would call a ground appreciation from
2 the map, which gave the gun limited arcs. It would
3 fire -- if I could show you on the air photograph.
5 Q. Sir, you are showing Lower Ahmici, which was
6 targeting on either side of the main road; is that
8 A. (No audible response).
9 Q. What were you able to see inside the
11 A. When I went into the Bungalow with the ECMM
12 monitor -- is that --
13 Q. Well, let us first stick to the 17th of
14 April, 1993. Did you go inside the Bungalow on that
16 A. No, not on that day.
17 Q. What did you see on that day from outside the
19 A. On that day, especially returning from the
20 location I'd been observing from back to Vitez, the
21 jeep that came down the hill was parked there, and also
22 there was a number of HVO soldiers on the lower
24 Q. Could you tell us what uniforms they were in
25 and what weapons they carried?
1 A. The majority were in full camouflage uniform,
2 both jacket and trousers. The majority, again, had
3 AK-47 assault rifles, and I would say there were maybe
4 one or two wearing black tops.
5 Q. When did you go inside the Bungalow?
6 A. I went inside the Bungalow with the ECMM
7 monitor, and the -- I think the date was the 22nd. I
8 may be wrong. Dates are difficult for me to remember,
9 but we went in with that gentleman, an interpreter, and
10 the HVO commander.
11 Q. What is your recollection of your going into
12 the Bungalow? What did you see at that time?
13 A. On entering the Bungalow, there was maybe 15
14 HVO soldiers. We entered the Bungalow. Both
15 commanders, with the monitor, stood round a table and
16 obviously were discussing the situation regarding the
17 cease-fire. Again, we were in there for maybe 10, 15
18 minutes, and the situation changed drastically, which I
19 believe at that stage cut short the meeting and we had
20 to move outside.
21 Q. And why did the situation change
23 A. One soldier came in. He seemed to be
24 hysterical, waving a pistol around. At that time, not
25 being next to the interpreter, the only indication that
1 I got was that the majority of his anger was directed
2 towards myself, and was -- the only word I could
3 understand was UNPROFOR. I call the interpreter over,
4 and he explained to me that this particular individual
5 said that his family had been killed and that UNPROFOR
6 had stood by and watched and done nothing about that.
7 Again, at this stage, he left the building
8 and went down to the second vehicle and tried to enter
9 the second vehicle, which at that point had the BiH
10 commanders in. At that stage he was finally
11 restrained, taken away. Due to that situation, we all
12 returned to the vehicles and then continued on with the
13 tasks that day.
14 Q. What is your recollection of the HVO
15 commanders you saw on that day in the Bungalow?
16 A. They obviously were discussing the positions
17 which they had occupied, and no doubt were discussing
18 the positions that were going to be visited that day by
19 the monitor.
20 Q. Could the witness be shown a very short clip
21 of the video Exhibit P253 which has already been
22 displayed to the judges. It lasts 10 to 15 seconds.
23 And, witness, I shall ask you to have a close look at
24 this short segment. I don't think that you've had the
25 opportunity to see it before, and I shall ask you
1 whether you can identify the location where this was
2 taken, to start with, and then I'll ask you whether you
3 are able to identify any of the people you may see in
4 these pictures.
5 (Videotape played)
6 MR. TERRIER:
7 Q. Witness, were you able to identify the
8 location where these pictures were taken, where this
9 video was shot?
10 A. Looking at the video, and especially the
11 interior, to me it would be the interior of the
13 Q. Are you a hundred per cent sure, or is it
14 just a hypothesis?
15 A. I would be a hundred per cent sure.
16 Q. You saw faces. Were you able to identify any
17 of them?
18 A. There was two people in the video that I
20 Q. When did you see them? When did you see
21 these people?
22 A. It would be difficult to say when it was that
23 I'd seen these people, but, you know, their faces do
24 stick in my mind. It is difficult to put a time, date
25 and place.
1 Q. Would you be able to give a physical
2 description of these two individuals?
3 A. Yes, the first one is fairly large build,
4 he's chubby in the face, slightly receding hair,
5 darkish skin. The second one I would say again was
6 sort of medium height, again heavy sort of build, dark
7 hair but bald on the top.
8 Q. Looking at the people here in this courtroom,
9 would you be able to recognise either of these two
11 A. I can't see him. I can't see who is behind
12 the pillar.
13 JUDGE CASSESE: Why don't you stand and --
14 you can move around.
15 MR. TERRIER:
16 Q. Yes, you can move. You have to move, because
17 indeed, this pillar is in your way.
18 A. Yes. No, not.
19 Q. Thank you. Let us move on to another day
20 during your tour in Bosnia in the area of Vitez -- let
21 us speak of the 20th of April?
22 JUDGE CASSESE: Could we have a break maybe?
23 MR. TERRIER: As you wish.
24 JUDGE CASSESE: For 20 minutes.
25 --- Recess taken at 4.10 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 4.33 p.m.
2 MR. TERRIER:
3 Q. Witness, you could us please tell the Court
4 what happened on the 28th of April, 1993? You spent
5 most of the day in Stari Vitez because there was a
6 burial there, wasn't there?
7 A. Yes, that is correct. On that day the task
8 given to me was to move into Stari Vitez and assist in
9 the transfer of dead bodies between Stari Vitez and the
10 school in Vitez. We met up and removed three bodies
11 from the area of Stari Vitez. We also picked up a
12 large vehicle and trailer, and from that point we
13 escorted the party to the school inside Vitez itself.
14 On arrival at the school, there was a vehicle
15 already parked outside the school, which they proceeded
16 to open the doors, which had already been loaded with a
17 number of bodies wrapped in clear plastic bags. Again,
18 it was at this stage then that the three bodies that
19 were brought in from the area of Stari Vitez were taken
20 into the school, and then the -- or they proceeded then
21 to remove the bodies from the gymnasium within the
22 school and place them onto the transport.
23 At the time this was happening, an engineer
24 vehicle, a light-wheel tractor, or bulldozer as it's
25 commonly known, was in the Stari Vitez area preparing
1 to dig a mass grave.
2 Once the bodies had been loaded onto the
3 transport, we then proceeded to escort the transport to
4 the field and remain in location until the proceedings
5 of burying the dead were complete.
6 Q. Is it accurate to say that dead bodies of
7 Croats were being swapped against Muslim bodies?
8 A. Yes, that is correct.
9 Q. How many Croat bodies were there?
10 A. Three.
11 Q. And how many Muslim bodies?
12 A. I don't know the exact number, but it was put
13 to me approximately 96.
14 Q. And where were the Croat bodies, as it were,
15 if I may use that expression, where were the bodies of
16 former Croats? Where were they to be found?
17 A. The one was found in a garage in, as I say,
18 the Muslim area, or Stari Vitez, and the other two were
19 actually brought out from the northern part of Stari
20 Vitez, onto the main road where the lorry and trailer
21 were waiting, and placed onto the vehicle.
22 Q. They were not on the same location?
23 A. No.
24 Q. In respect of the bodies that were presented
25 to you as being bodies of Muslims, do you know who had
1 collected those bodies and where they came from?
2 A. No. At that point there was no indication to
3 us as who had collected the bodies and where exactly
4 they'd come from. We only assumed, due to the
5 situation, that the bodies had been collected from
6 around the region of Vitez.
7 Q. Well, when you say "around Vitez", in your
8 mind does that include Ahmici?
9 A. Yes, that would include Ahmici. Within
10 Vitez, over that period of time, the number of bodies
11 that we did see was limited, but as you moved out of
12 Vitez, going east, there were, again, a number of
13 bodies lying on roadsides and in doorways of
14 buildings. So we presumed from that that these bodies
15 had been collected from the outlining villages which
16 could include Ahmici.
17 Q. Now, could this exhibit be shown in this
18 order? These are ten photographs. Could the usher
19 help us?
20 Your Honour, all these photographs were taken
21 on the 28th of April, 1993 in Stari Vitez. They were
22 taken by Mr. Penfound. This was will be confirmed by
23 the witness. He was an officer in the British
25 Is that right?
1 A. Yes, that is correct.
2 Q. Whilst we're waiting for the first photograph
3 to be shown, let me ask you this question: As going to
4 be seen in these photographs, the bodies were wrapped
5 in clear plastic bags. Were you, therefore, able to
6 see whether they were soldiers who had been killed in
7 combat or were there civilian bodies?
8 A. Yes. Due to the nature of the way they were
9 wrapped in the polythene bags, you could see by the
10 clothing that I would say of all the bodies that I'd
11 seen, which is, as I say, the 96, I only saw two that
12 were wearing a camouflage jacket. The remainder were
13 civilians, both male, female of varying age groups.
14 Q. Do you remember seeing bodies of babies, of
15 children among those bodies?
16 A. When we got to the field in Stari Vitez and
17 they proceeded to initially lay the bodies on the grass
18 prior to placing them into the grave, the purpose of
19 this was so that they could try and identify who the
20 body was. I saw two small, as you would say, packages
21 or -- there were two small lying next -- or beginning
22 of the line of bodies.
23 I approached. You couldn't see into the
24 plastic, because obviously the size of the package, it
25 was obviously wrapped quite a few times.
1 My initial thought was that it was children,
2 but a local sort of gestured to me through body
3 language, et cetera, that it was the heads from
4 decapitated bodies. However, it couldn't be proved
5 that that was the case. But I would say, you know, on
6 reflection, that more than likely it was children.
7 Q. Among those bodies, bodies of Muslims, did
8 you note bodies of elderly people?
9 A. Yes. As I say, there was -- it covered all
10 age groups. There were old, very old people, both
11 male, female, teenagers, middle 20s, middle 30s. So it
12 was a vast range of age groups.
13 Q. Did you notice or did you get any clues as to
14 the way these people had been killed?
15 A. The only clues that we had is that when the
16 bodies were picked up is due to the fact that they were
17 in plastic bags, that the large amounts of blood would
18 go to the bottom of the bag, so, therefore, it would
19 indicate to me that in that situation that they had
20 died of some sort of gun-shot wound.
21 Q. On that location in Stari Vitez, this
22 bulldozer of the BRITBAT dug two graves, didn't it?
23 A. (No audible answer)
24 Q. How long did this operation, all the digging
25 and all the burial ritual, how long did that take?
1 A. The ritual of the burying took from, I would
2 say, early afternoon through to early evening. Near
3 the very end it was starting to get dark.
4 Q. Did -- were all the bodies buried in those
5 graves identified with certainty?
6 A. As far as I'm aware, due to the fact that I
7 was not involved in that detail, again I was there to
8 offer assurance to the people carrying out that
9 particular task, which were the Muslim people
10 themselves, we were there, as I say, to protect them in
11 case they come under any form of attack.
12 MR. TERRIER: Please, usher, could you put
13 the first photograph on the ELMO? Please do.
14 JUDGE CASSESE: If I understood properly, the
15 witness did not answer your question. He may not have
16 understood your question the way you put it. You asked
17 him whether they had been identified, and --
18 MR. TERRIER: You're right, Your Honour. I'm
19 going to put the question again.
20 Q. Witness, do you know whether somebody was
21 able to identify all of the bodies that were buried on
22 that day?
23 A. As far as I can answer, that there were a
24 number of people and they were opening the bags, and as
25 I could see it at that time, the bodies did have labels
1 attached to them, which I believe was their
2 identification. However, because I was not directly
3 involved with the identification and the direct burying
4 of the bodies, I can only surmise that there could have
5 been people that were buried that day who were not able
6 to identify.
7 Q. Could you please have a look at this first
8 photograph and give us some comment, brief comment?
9 Where was this photograph taken? What does it show?
10 THE REGISTRAR: This is Exhibit 303.
11 A. Yes. The picture that I'm looking at now was
12 taken at the school in the middle of Vitez. It's
13 the -- that particular vehicle was already in location
14 when we arrived and had -- already had a number of
15 bodies placed onto it. This photograph is indicating
16 that they're continuing to fill the vehicle. This was
17 the first vehicle to move off from the school to the
18 field and be unloaded.
19 MR. TERRIER:
20 Q. Sir, this is the loading of the bodies which
21 was then transported to Stari Vitez; is that right?
22 A. Yes, that is correct.
23 Q. Well, most of the people who can be seen in
24 this photograph are wearing masks. Why are they
25 wearing masks?
1 A. Due to, again, the time of year, the weather,
2 which the heat makes a big difference. It was the
3 actual smell of the dead bodies.
4 MR. TERRIER: Can you show the second
6 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 302.
7 MR. TERRIER:
8 Q. Could you tell what this photograph shows and
9 where it was taken?
10 A. Yes. The photograph shows the unloading of
11 the first vehicle which we'd seen on the previous
12 photograph, and this is taking place in the field in
13 Stari Vitez where they initially lined the bodies up so
14 that they could try and identify them.
15 MR. TERRIER: Could you show the next
17 THE REGISTRAR: 301.
18 MR. TERRIER:
19 Q. This is the operation which was to identify
20 the bodies, as you stated before; is that right?
21 A. Yes, that is correct. From what I could see
22 from the procedures, again, as indicated within the
23 photograph, is one individual would try to find the tag
24 to identify the victim whilst, as you can again see in
25 the photograph, another member wrote down the necessary
2 MR. TERRIER: The next photograph, please.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 300.
4 MR. TERRIER:
5 Q. In this photograph it can be seen -- what
6 I'll call a bag was opened. Were the bags opened?
7 A. Yes. In a lot of cases the bags were
8 opened. Again, from earlier on, from what I could see,
9 is that the individual bodies were actually tagged
10 themselves. So the tag was actually inside fastened to
11 the body or clothing and not fastened to the plastic
13 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 299.
14 MR. TERRIER:
15 Q. So this is a general view of the burial site;
16 is that right?
17 A. Yes, that is correct.
18 Q. Can this bulldozer, the BRITBAT bulldozer, be
19 seen in the photograph? I mean, the bulldozer that was
20 used to dig the graves.
21 A. Yes. It can be seen to the left of the
23 THE REGISTRAR: This is Exhibit 298.
24 MR. TERRIER:
25 Q. Is this one of the graves dug by the BRITBAT
2 A. Yes, that is correct.
3 Q. Are these the first bodies that were put into
4 the grave?
5 A. At that stage it looks to me that, yes, it's
6 the first bodies to be placed into the mass grave.
7 Q. One can see that the plastic bags placed in
8 this common grave are of various sizes. I see the
9 second, starting from the bottom, it seems to be a very
10 short bag. Do you remember that one in particular or
11 other of similar sizes?
12 A. Yes, I remember others of similar sizes.
13 That could have been one that I had seen. Again,
14 because of the smallness of the -- whether it's the
15 body, as I say, it's wrapped so many times with the
16 plastic that at that stage you couldn't see into it.
17 And as I say, initially that's why I inquired to see if
18 it was a small child.
19 Q. Would that be that of a small child, or what
20 could it have been?
21 A. My assumption, eventually, is that -- though
22 I was initially told that it was the head of a
23 decapitated body, the package was too big for a head.
24 So as I say, my later conclusion was that they were --
25 it was the body of a small child.
1 MR. TERRIER: Next photograph, please.
2 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit 297.
3 MR. TERRIER:
4 Q. So is this the same burial ceremony being
5 carried on?
6 A. Yes, it's the same burial ceremony.
7 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit 296.
8 MR. TERRIER:
9 Q. Do you want to make any comments on this
10 photograph? This is the same common grave and the same
12 A. As I say, this went on for the remainder of
13 the afternoon into early evening. By this stage,
14 though we were still located at the field, we moved
15 away from the proceedings, as we felt that it wasn't
16 right for us to be looking on as sort of bystanders.
17 So I made a decision to move my people away so that
18 they could get on with the proceedings.
19 Q. Was there a Imam organising the ceremony?
20 A. Yes. Later on in the proceedings, as you
21 look at the photograph, I would say they were more to
22 the right, and there was a group who were praying and
23 going through what are, you know, the procedures that
24 they sort of go through.
25 Q. Were there a lot of people gathered on that
1 site for the burial?
2 A. Yes, there was quite a few people at the
3 site, but I think that the overall control by the
4 Muslims themselves, obviously they didn't want the
5 whole place to be saturated, so again, I think they
6 sort of controlled the situation so that the people
7 that were there were there for the reasons of the
8 proceedings rather than as onlookers.
9 Q. Did you notice that there were families
11 A. Not at that stage. As I say, we sort of
12 stayed away from it and continued to observe mainly
13 away from the burial site, due to the fact, again, I
14 felt that, you know, we were there for the reason of
15 observing out and giving them protection again because
16 of the situation. They felt uneasy, that they could be
17 sniped upon. So, as I say, our role was there just to
18 be in the vicinity as a presence. So that was the
19 decision I decided to take, is that we would move away
20 and be seen to be doing the job that we were tasked to
21 do that day.
22 MR. TERRIER: Can we see the next photograph,
24 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit number
1 MR. TERRIER:
2 Q. So this is the same proceedings going on,
3 being carried further; is that right?
4 A. Yes, that is correct. It was a long
5 procedure, as I say, due to the fact that they first
6 had to unload the bodies, line them out on the grass,
7 identify, where possible, who they were before they
8 could be placed in position in the mass grave.
9 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit 294.
10 MR. TERRIER:
11 Q. Does this photograph show the two parallel
12 mass graves after they had been filled, of course?
13 A. Yes. Initially one was dug. As soon as that
14 was completed they carried on with a second, so
15 eventually there was two mass graves dug on the site.
16 MR. TERRIER: Thank you very much. I have no
17 further questions for this witness, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
19 MR. TERRIER: I shall merely ask that
20 Exhibits 293 to 3 -- wait a minute -- be tendered into
21 evidence. I'll give you the numbers right now. 303.
22 JUDGE CASSESE: We were planning to go on
23 until quarter past five. So, Mr. Pavkovic, could you
24 tell us whether you have a lot of questions to ask of
25 this witness? Do the Defence counsel plan to ask a lot
1 of questions?
2 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, true, I do not
3 know how many questions my colleagues will have, but my
4 learned friend, Radovic, has already indicated that he
5 would like to cross-examine this witness.
6 JUDGE CASSESE: Shall we have a start,
7 Counsel Radovic? Shall we start now for 15 minutes and
8 then we'll adjourn until tomorrow, or do you prefer to
9 start tomorrow morning?
10 MR. RADOVIC: I'd rather if we started
11 tomorrow morning if possible, yes.
12 JUDGE CASSESE: We'll adjourn now until
13 tomorrow at 9.30 then.
14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
15 5.05 p.m. to be reconvened on Wednesday,
16 the 14th day of October, 1998 at
17 9:30 a.m.