1. 1 Tuesday, 24, February, 1999

    2 (The accused entered court)

    3 (Open session)

    4 --- Upon commencing at 9.14 a.m.

    5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours,

    6 case number IT-95-16-T, the Prosecutor versus Zoran

    7 Kupreskic, Mirjan Kupreskic, Vlatko Kupreskic, Drago

    8 Josipovic, Dragan Papic and Vladimir Santic.

    9 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning. I hope there

    10 is a translation. Is there any translation? Yes.

    11 Well, first of all, we deeply regret the

    12 delay which is caused by the absence of the -- strange

    13 absence of the technicians. We have decided anyway to

    14 start, although we are only getting a transcript later

    15 on, there will be no live notes for the time being, but

    16 we hope that by the time we move on to substantial

    17 matters we may have the technicians available.

    18 Now, first of all, let me deal with two

    19 preliminary issues, housekeeping matters.

    20 We have received a motion from the Defence

    21 relating to the calling by the Court of a Judge, the

    22 Judge -- I don't know whether I can say her name, and

    23 the other witness, the lady whose name cannot be

    24 disclosed.

    25 Now, I understand before we serve those

  2. 1 summonses, the relevant authorities would like to know

    2 the date when those witnesses should be called here.

    3 Since we are calling those witnesses at the request of

    4 Defence counsel, we were wondering whether the Defence

    5 counsel could suggest a date so that we can put a date

    6 in the relevant documents to be sent over to the

    7 competent authorities. I wonder whether you could

    8 quickly consult with one another and decide what to do.

    9 Yes, please, Counsel Slokovic-Glumac.

    10 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Good morning, Your

    11 Honours. Good morning, Mr. President. We would like

    12 if these two witnesses could come together so that we

    13 could hear them together, and we suggest that it takes

    14 place sometime in April because this witness will be

    15 questioned by several Defence counsel. So we propose

    16 that this takes place sometime in April.

    17 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. This means that

    18 this should be between the 26th and the 29th of April.

    19 We have only four working days available, I'm afraid,

    20 because as you know, the 30th is Queen's Day, it's a

    21 holiday. I wonder -- thank you.

    22 Any comments from the Prosecution?

    23 MR. BLAXILL: No, Your Honour.

    24 JUDGE CASSESE: Good. So we can move on to

    25 other matters. As you have realised, as you know,

  3. 1 the -- one of the Judges, Judge May, is ill and is not

    2 likely to attend our hearings before Monday, because he

    3 has been taken ill with a serious flu. We were

    4 wondering whether the other party pursuant to Rule 71

    5 was prepared to put in a request that we should take

    6 their positions so that we can go on and not waste

    7 time.

    8 MR. BLAXILL: Indeed, sir. Your Honour, the

    9 Prosecution is prepared to make that formal request of

    10 the Chamber, that you can sit as presiding officers

    11 under Rule 71(A), and hear depositions in the remaining

    12 days of this week, Your Honour.

    13 JUDGE CASSESE: What about Defence counsel?

    14 In particular I would like to ask Counsel Puliselic

    15 whether he would also agree.

    16 MR. PULISELIC: Good morning, Your Honour.

    17 Yesterday we were informed that Judge May was ill, and

    18 we immediately made contact with the detention unit and

    19 requested to see the accused Dragan Papic, and I have

    20 to inform you that the accused Dragan Papic is opposed

    21 to the witnesses being questioned before only two

    22 Judges of the Chamber. These are very important

    23 witnesses for him. These are fact witnesses, and they

    24 will be speaking about incidents he had has been

    25 charged with in the relevant times. So it is the

  4. 1 proposal of the Defence that these witnesses be not

    2 heard before two Judges of the Chamber only.

    3 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Counsel Puliselic,

    4 but before we make a ruling on this matter I would like

    5 to explain to you how we see these proceedings covered

    6 by Rule 71 depositions. When the trial is underway, in

    7 practice what happens is that the Judge who is absent

    8 because of serious impediments, after the taking of the

    9 deposition by two officers, will go through the

    10 transcript and normally he can watch a videotape with

    11 the testimony given by the witness and will also watch

    12 the examination-in-chief, cross-examination and so on.

    13 So in a way, we don't see any huge difference

    14 between the resort to this particular procedure, their

    15 positions, and actual trial proceedings. There's no --

    16 on the practical side -- legally speaking, of course,

    17 there is a difference.

    18 On the practical speaking there is no

    19 difference whatsoever, because the Judge, by simply

    20 reading carefully the transcript of all our

    21 proceedings, plus watching the videotape, can make his

    22 own conviction and can decide on the credibility of a

    23 witness.

    24 In light of that, do you still insist on your

    25 opposition to the application of Rule 71?

  5. 1 I may add, before that, this also happened to

    2 me last week. Remember, I was ill and only one witness

    3 was heard under Rule 71, and I proceeded in that

    4 manner. I can now form my own conviction about the

    5 credibility of that witness by simply working

    6 afterwards at home or here in office hours, in the

    7 afternoon. So could you please let us know whether you

    8 insist on your opposition?

    9 MR. PULISELIC: Your Honour, Mr. President,

    10 when you were ill the situation was different. We

    11 agreed that witnesses be heard, witnesses relating to

    12 general allegations, but these witnesses will be

    13 speaking about some very specific circumstances, and

    14 I'm simply conveying to you what the accused Dragan

    15 Papic told me. He told his Defence counsel that he did

    16 not wish witnesses to be heard before two Judges of the

    17 Chamber only, and we hope that the illness of Judge May

    18 is not serious and we do expect that he will soon be

    19 available and here. So we would suggest that these

    20 witnesses not be heard until that time, until the

    21 Chamber is able to sit in full composition.

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: We rule that in spite of the

    23 opposition of the Defence counsel and the accused, Rule

    24 71 is fully applicable because according to this Rule

    25 the request of one party is sufficient, and we feel

  6. 1 that we are confronted with exceptional circumstances

    2 and that the interests of justice command that a fair

    3 and expeditious trial be held.

    4 As I said before, since in any case the Judge

    5 who is presently absent will be able fully to form his

    6 own conviction, legal conviction and opinion, I think

    7 there will be nothing which would jeopardise the rights

    8 of the accused.

    9 So we decide to proceed accordingly, and I

    10 would be acting as a presiding officer, and we will,

    11 therefore, under Rule 71(E), subsequently transmit the

    12 record to the Trial Chamber in its full composition so

    13 that Judge May will be in a position to appraise the

    14 evidence and be fully familiar with it.

    15 It is decided accordingly, and we may now

    16 move on to the first witness to be examined-in-chief by

    17 counsel Nika Pinter.

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: I wonder if any protective

    19 measures have been requested?

    20 MS. PINTER: No.

    21 (The witness entered court)

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning, Mr. Papic.

    23 THE WITNESS: Good morning.

    24 JUDGE CASSESE: I would like to ask you to

    25 make the solemn declaration, please.

  7. 1 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

    2 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

    3 truth.

    4 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, you may be

    5 seated.

    6 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

    7 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Pinter?


    9 Examined by Ms. Pinter:

    10 Q. Good morning, Mr. Papic. Would you please

    11 introduce yourself to the Judges? You may remain

    12 seated.

    13 A. My name is Pero Papic. I was born on the

    14 15th of June, 1965 in the village of Santici in Vitez,

    15 the municipality of Vitez, the Republic of Bosnia and

    16 Herzegovina.

    17 Q. On the aerial photograph of Ahmici, could you

    18 please point to your house?

    19 A. May I stand up?

    20 Q. Yes, you may, and you may take the pointer.

    21 A. This is my house.

    22 Q. Could you state other houses that are in your

    23 village, and could you please speak slowly?

    24 A. This is the house of my mother Marija Papic,

    25 the house of Nakic, Mehmed Ahmic, the house of Ivo

  8. 1 Papic, the house of Nikica Milicevic, the house of

    2 Rafael Milicevic, Alija Ahmic's house.

    3 Q. Have you indicated all the houses?

    4 A. (No audible response)

    5 Q. You may sit down.

    6 Mr. Papic, in the area around your house was

    7 there a shelter, and if so, when?

    8 A. Yes. There was a shelter in the basement of

    9 my house, which was approximately 20 square metres

    10 large.

    11 Q. When was it used as a shelter?

    12 A. It was used sometime in mid 1992.

    13 Q. Did all of your neighbours come to your

    14 shelter? Yes, please.

    15 A. The neighbours who lived in the immediate

    16 vicinity used to come to our shelter but also people

    17 who lived in the centre of the village.

    18 Q. I will now ask several questions, but would

    19 you please wait a little before you give your answer?

    20 In the vicinity of your house, was there a

    21 forest?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. Who are the owners of the forest?

    24 A. The owners of the forest are Anto Papic, Simo

    25 Vidovic, Gavro Vidovic, Marko Papic and Ivo Papic.

  9. 1 Q. How is Ivo Papic related to you?

    2 A. Ivo Papic is my uncle.

    3 Q. Which means that Dragan Papic is your cousin?

    4 A. Yes, that's right.

    5 Q. Did you participate in the village guards?

    6 A. Yes, I did.

    7 Q. Could you describe for us a little bit what

    8 it looked like?

    9 A. We had organised ourselves, the residents of

    10 the houses that lived in the vicinity of my house. We

    11 organised the village guards on our own.

    12 Q. Were there only Croats who participated in

    13 the village guards or were there any Muslims maybe?

    14 A. There were also Muslims as of mid 1992

    15 approximately.

    16 Q. Was there any sort of command over the

    17 village guards?

    18 A. No. As I told you, we had organised

    19 ourselves on our own.

    20 Q. Were you armed?

    21 A. Yes, we were. We were given some old rifles,

    22 M-48 rifles.

    23 Q. Who gave them to you?

    24 A. The Territorial Defence.

    25 Q. Who was the commander of the village guards

  10. 1 in Ahmici?

    2 A. The Croats did not have a commander of the

    3 village guards, and I don't know about Muslims.

    4 Q. Did you stand guard with Muslims all the time

    5 or did at one -- did you separate at one point?

    6 A. Until the night of the 19th of October, 1992

    7 we stood village guards together with Muslims.

    8 Q. Could you describe for us the events that

    9 took place on the 19th and the 20th, but slowly,

    10 please.

    11 A. On the 19th of October, 1992, Fahran Ahmic

    12 came to see us that night.

    13 Q. Where were you that night?

    14 A. That night I was on duty as part of our

    15 regular village guard. Vidovic Vinko was with me,

    16 Ivica Papic as well.

    17 Q. Who is Papic Ivica?

    18 A. Ivica Papic is my late brother.

    19 Q. And where were you, please?

    20 A. I was at my own home, in the vicinity of my

    21 house.

    22 Q. While you were on guard, Fahrudin came?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. What happened then?

    25 A. Just before nightfall, Fahran came, and we

  11. 1 asked him, as we kept guard duty together, we asked him

    2 why they wouldn't join us that night. He didn't give

    3 us any answer; he simply turned around and went off

    4 home.

    5 Q. Did you notice anything else while you were

    6 on guard duty?

    7 A. No, we simply felt some changes in the air.

    8 This was the greatest change, because that night,

    9 Fahran withdrew from our common guards, and Salim

    10 Causevic said, "Am I going to stay with you, or should

    11 I keep guard duty on my own?" We asked what he meant,

    12 and we simply didn't understand, nor did we realise

    13 that the situation was serious.

    14 Q. While you were on guard duty, did you see

    15 some people moving around the fence?

    16 A. Yes, we did notice that, and that is why we

    17 asked Fahran, but he gave us no answer. As far as we

    18 knew, the most probable explanation was that he warned

    19 them, and then we didn't see them again during the

    20 night.

    21 Q. Did you warn anyone about seeing those

    22 people?

    23 A. We didn't need to in our immediate vicinity.

    24 We didn't think it was necessary, so we didn't warn

    25 anyone.

  12. 1 Q. And then what happened during the night and

    2 in the morning?

    3 A. We kept duty as usual. I was on duty. With

    4 me were Rafael Milicevic, Ivica Papic, Vinko Vidovic.

    5 Q. And before dawn, what happened?

    6 A. Just before it dawned, about 4.45 a.m., I

    7 can't tell you exactly what time it was, but roughly it

    8 was about that time, very heavy gunfire was opened at

    9 my house, coming from the fence which was about 20

    10 metres away from my house, to the west of my house.

    11 Q. What happened then?

    12 A. This burst of fire came from several

    13 weapons. There were some explosive devices which we

    14 could not identify, most probably handmade devices.

    15 Then some ten minutes later, the firing subsided. This

    16 was about 5.00. When we heard the call from the

    17 minaret of the mosque, first there was some music. We

    18 couldn't explain it, we couldn't recognise it. Then

    19 there was a speech, somebody saying "Croats,

    20 surrender." Then in the central part of the village,

    21 an explosion could be heard.

    22 After that, I sought to save my family and my

    23 houses. I had -- my wife and my child were in the

    24 house, and my brother-in-law's -- my wife's brother's

    25 child, who was between 6 and 7 at the time. When the

  13. 1 shooting subsided I ran into the house, because the

    2 entrance to the house is on the northern side. There

    3 are steps on both sides. I ran in from the west,

    4 because of course I was afraid of further shooting. I

    5 entered the house and the room that faces south-east.

    6 This was my good fortune that it was positioned in that

    7 way, because later on, we realised that my wife was

    8 packing things into a sleeping bag, children's things

    9 of my little girl.

    10 Q. Did you manage to see the damage done to your

    11 house?

    12 A. When my wife asked me to get some things from

    13 the living room, I wasn't aware of what had happened.

    14 I just saw that the door was broken in. But I never

    15 realised the chaos that the living room would be in.

    16 Even the dust hadn't settled, nor the smoke that was

    17 still evident in the rooms. I was surprised; dust was

    18 still floating around. I trod on broken glass. I

    19 entered; I picked up the things as quickly as I could.

    20 Q. What about the children?

    21 A. When I passed these things on to my wife,

    22 then we threw out a pillow first, through the western

    23 side of the house, through the window. It isn't very

    24 high; it is about 2 metres high. So we threw out a

    25 pillow to help them land, to soften their fall.

  14. 1 Q. When you dropped the children down, what

    2 happened then?

    3 A. Then I went towards the main door, and there

    4 was a thick fog, so visibility was very limited. It

    5 was about 10 to 15 metres. I went out, and I told my

    6 wife that she should run out too. I pushed her through

    7 the back door, and then together with them, because we

    8 were scared, we passed by my mother's house towards the

    9 nearby wood.

    10 Q. We'll come back to that later on, but let me

    11 ask you first: Apart in your house, on the 20th of

    12 October, which other houses were damaged, and were

    13 other houses damaged?

    14 A. Yes. The house of Mehmed Ahmic, known as

    15 Sudjuka, his house was damaged; Drago Josipovic's

    16 house, and the barn had burnt down. And another barn

    17 near my house, owned by Alija Ahmic.

    18 Q. Of course you are talking about the part of

    19 the village where you lived, not about the whole area?

    20 A. Yes, because I didn't know what had happened

    21 elsewhere.

    22 Q. Tell us now, you mentioned Alija Ahmic's barn

    23 that was on fire; who put the fire out on that barn?

    24 A. We did. Me, my brother; Vinko helped us.

    25 Q. And where was Alija?

  15. 1 A. They had left early in the morning. His

    2 daughter and mother had left before that. We didn't

    3 know that. They had left before, earlier on. And

    4 immediately after the gunfire started, they probably

    5 saw that they hadn't done what they were meant to do,

    6 and they left.

    7 Q. So the house was deserted and the barn was

    8 burning?

    9 A. We didn't manage to extinguish the fire in

    10 the barn but only in part of the house that had caught

    11 fire.

    12 Q. When you took the children out of the house,

    13 you and your wife, what did you do then?

    14 A. All of us who were there, we consulted as to

    15 what we should do next. We had sought refuge in the

    16 small wood. We felt safe there, but we didn't know

    17 what to do next. So we realised that the only

    18 direction we could take would be southwards, towards

    19 Rovna.

    20 Q. And who went with you? Who did you lead?

    21 A. At the time, Ankica managed to join us; my

    22 mother, too, they live across the road, and her

    23 children.

    24 Q. And where did you go to?

    25 A. We went towards the wood.

  16. 1 Q. Could you show us with the pointer where this

    2 is?

    3 A. Yes, I will. (Indicating).

    4 Q. You may get up.

    5 A. So we went across the centre of the wood. We

    6 formed a group there. We gathered, and then we headed

    7 towards -- in this direction. Dragan Papic went in

    8 front of us with his wife.

    9 Q. Did you follow them?

    10 A. We knew who was in front and who was behind

    11 us. And we could tell mostly by the voices.

    12 Here, somebody just said "Stop, or I'll

    13 shoot." Those of us behind, we just dropped to the

    14 ground. We were scared, of course, and Dragan remained

    15 in front of me, and we just heard a conversation. Some

    16 words were exchanged; of course we couldn't decipher

    17 what was being said. But roughly it was that nobody

    18 would hurt us and that we could go on. Nenad Santic

    19 was there. Nenad Santic. Dragan went ahead. He

    20 crossed the embankment where the old railway line was.

    21 I sent my wife and children, as I have already said. I

    22 just told them to go on, without saying anything as to

    23 where and when. I just said that they should cross the

    24 river, over the Lasva River.

    25 Q. If the visibility was so poor, how did you

  17. 1 know it was Nenad Santic?

    2 A. By his voice, because we are close

    3 neighbours.

    4 Q. Did you see him coming?

    5 A. Yes, I did see him.

    6 Q. Could you tell us what the time was, roughly?

    7 A. About 5.30.

    8 Q. Do you know where Dragan Papic went from

    9 there? Did you see him after that?

    10 A. He went to Rovna. I didn't see him again

    11 that day.

    12 Q. Can you recollect, when was the road opened

    13 to traffic?

    14 A. Sometime in the afternoon, about 3.00 or 4.00

    15 in the afternoon. I can't tell you exactly. Maybe

    16 plus or minus one hour.

    17 Q. On the 20th of October, did you know why the

    18 shooting started?

    19 A. On the 20th of October, I had no idea why

    20 fire was opened.

    21 Q. When did you learn the reason?

    22 A. On the 21st of October.

    23 Q. What did you learn?

    24 A. On the 21st of October, I learned the details

    25 and the purpose of that conflict.

  18. 1 Q. And what was the cause that provoked the

    2 conflict? What happened near the cemetery?

    3 A. I learned subsequently that a roadblock had

    4 been put up that night we didn't know about it. A

    5 roadblock had been set up for the Croatian army, the

    6 HVO that was supposed to pass along the Busovaca/Vitez

    7 road in the direction of Jajce to the front line.

    8 Q. Did you go -- of course not on that day, but

    9 later on -- to see what things looked like where the

    10 roadblock was put up?

    11 A. Yes, we did, because we were curious to see

    12 what had happened.

    13 Q. And what did you see?

    14 A. We saw trenches which had been dug across the

    15 road from the cemetery, and in the cemetery itself.

    16 Q. You could see them dug out?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. You said that you learnt the next day the

    19 reason. Who did you talk to, and how did you learn the

    20 causes and the reasons of that conflict? Could you

    21 tell us about it?

    22 A. The next day, on the 21st of October, Muris

    23 Ahmic came along the road. We were just below my

    24 mother's house.

    25 Q. When you say "we," who do you mean?

  19. 1 A. Vinko, my brother Zoran at the time, Ivica

    2 Papic, Rafael Milicevic.

    3 Q. So you were standing?

    4 A. Yes, we were standing there, and he asked

    5 whether he could approach us. We said, "why not? Do,

    6 come up, and let's see what this is all about."

    7 He came up close to us. He had some big

    8 boots on him. He was rather dirty. He approached us

    9 and he started crying. We asked him why he was

    10 crying. "Why did you do this to us?" He said that he

    11 headed the operation. He told us the details of the

    12 operation, what the aim of the operation was. He told

    13 us as follows; "The aim of the operation, which I was

    14 told to lead, I was given orders from the command, from

    15 Muharem Sivro, the task, because he was meant to be the

    16 leader but he passed it on to me. We were supposed to

    17 chase out the Croats. We had permission to take

    18 whatever we liked from the houses and then to set them

    19 on fire so that the Croats could not come back. This

    20 was the closest way for us to link up with others, to

    21 intercept communication, to link up with Gornja Rovna

    22 and Vranjska."

    23 Q. And Muris Ahmic told you all this?

    24 A. Yes. That was his statement. Then he

    25 started apologising, what could we do, could we go

  20. 1 back. "We know nothing about that, whether you can

    2 come back or not, but we can't tell you that you can't

    3 either. It's up to you to decide."

    4 Afterwards I learned that there was a meeting

    5 between the Croats and the Muslim leaders. This is

    6 from hearsay.

    7 Q. Yes, but you yourself did not have any direct

    8 contact?

    9 A. No.

    10 Q. In this conversation with Muris Ahmic, was

    11 there any mention about the positions of the BH army

    12 units? Do you recall that?

    13 A. No, but we assumed. We knew roughly where

    14 they were.

    15 Q. How did you know, and where were they as far

    16 as you knew?

    17 A. We knew because the people who came that day,

    18 we asked him where those men had come from, and they

    19 were from Vrhovine and they were armed.

    20 Q. So he told you that?

    21 A. Yes, he did. That they were from Vrhovine,

    22 and some were from Poculica and Preocica. He didn't go

    23 into the details.

    24 Q. Were they wearing camouflage uniforms?

    25 A. Yes, they were.

  21. 1 Q. Were they armed?

    2 A. Yes, they were.

    3 Q. Tell us, in the actual fighting over the

    4 roadblock near the cemetery, did the Croats from Ahmici

    5 take part?

    6 A. They couldn't participate because we didn't

    7 know anything about it, so we couldn't take part. In

    8 fact, we were shot at.

    9 Q. In your mother's house or in your house was

    10 any kind of material kept, boxes of ammunition or

    11 anything like that? Was there any kind of -- were any

    12 kind of weapons stored in your house or your mother's

    13 house?

    14 A. No, not at all.

    15 Q. Do you know Fahrudin Ahmic?

    16 A. Yes, I do. He's my very close neighbour.

    17 Q. What were relations like?

    18 A. We were good neighbours.

    19 Q. Could you be more specific?

    20 A. Yes. We assisted one another. He had just

    21 started to build his house. Actually, at the time it

    22 had already been completed, but we helped him build

    23 it.

    24 His immediate next door neighbour, Alija

    25 Ahmic, would not let him connect to the electricity

  22. 1 supply in his house, so we allowed him to do it, to

    2 connect to my mother's house. Then also he connected

    3 to the water supply system to our house, though it

    4 wasn't intended for use by more users, but we allowed

    5 him to use it.

    6 And we exchanged visits. He would visit us,

    7 we would visit them. This was quite customary amongst

    8 us.

    9 Q. Tell us, on the 20th of October did all the

    10 Muslims leave Ahmici?

    11 A. I couldn't know that.

    12 Q. But could you tell us about your

    13 neighbourhood?

    14 A. Yes. We do know that all of them left, the

    15 people on the other side of the road.

    16 Q. When did they come back?

    17 A. They started coming back when the Croats

    18 called them to come back.

    19 Q. Was this a month or two later?

    20 A. No, no, two days later. Around the 22nd

    21 already they started coming back en masse.

    22 Q. Did anyone enter the Muslim homes when they

    23 abandoned them? Do you know that?

    24 A. No, not one -- none of us went into those

    25 houses, because that was the way we were brought up,

  23. 1 that in such a situation we shouldn't take advantage of

    2 such things.

    3 Q. So they were not looted?

    4 A. No.

    5 Q. Do you have any knowledge about the second

    6 conflict that occurred between the Muslims and the

    7 Croats in Ahmici, any personal knowledge?

    8 A. I have no personal knowledge, only what I

    9 heard later on from others.

    10 Q. In April 1993, were you in Ahmici?

    11 A. I didn't understand the question.

    12 Q. I beg your pardon. Where was your family?

    13 A. In what period?

    14 Q. In April 1993.

    15 A. In April you mean?

    16 Q. Yes.

    17 A. I had a car accident on the 10th of February,

    18 1993, so that my family was with me in Busovaca when I

    19 was released from hospital.

    20 Q. So you were nowhere near Ahmici?

    21 A. No.

    22 Q. So on the 15th of April you didn't come to

    23 pick up your wife in Ahmici?

    24 A. No, I didn't, because she was with me.

    25 Q. Before you had that car accident you lived in

  24. 1 Ahmici, until February 1993, didn't you?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. In that period did you socialise with Dragan?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. Did you have frequent contacts?

    6 A. Yes. I can't remember exactly how often we

    7 met but frequently.

    8 Q. Was his appearance the same as it is now?

    9 A. No. He had a much bigger beard.

    10 Q. What were the comments regarding his beard?

    11 A. We all said that he should shave it off

    12 because of the situation, the attacks by the army and

    13 so on.

    14 Q. So he wore a bigger beard than he has now?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. If you recall, where was Dragan working?

    17 What was his job?

    18 A. Dragan was working in the Sumarija, the

    19 forestry company of Vitez.

    20 Q. How did he go to work? Was he wearing

    21 civilian clothes or a uniform? What kind of uniform

    22 did he have? How was he dressed usually?

    23 A. As for the details of his dress, I'm not an

    24 expert. It's very hard for me to say that, because

    25 this is not something that I notice very much on

  25. 1 people, but I know that he used to wear a uniform from

    2 time to time. He did not participate in the village

    3 guards so much because he was engaged elsewhere. He

    4 couldn't be in two places at the same time.

    5 Q. Did he carry a rifle?

    6 A. Yes, sometimes he carried a rifle.

    7 Q. What was he doing in his spare time?

    8 A. In his spare time Dragan repaired cars, and

    9 he was also very good at repairing electrical devices

    10 in cars, which was not very ordinary because he was not

    11 an expert for that.

    12 Q. Did he distinguish amongst people whose cars

    13 he repaired?

    14 A. No. He repaired cars of everyone, Croats and

    15 Muslims alike.

    16 Q. Since you socialised with him, did you ever

    17 hear any nationalistic comments from him? Was he only

    18 in favour of the Croatian cause? Was he against Serbs

    19 and Muslims, other ethnic groups?

    20 A. No. He never expressed himself in that way

    21 because he's a very good man.

    22 Q. Was he any kind of political -- was he

    23 politically involved in Ahmici in any way?

    24 A. No. He didn't like politics very much. He

    25 only likes cars.

  26. 1 Q. While you lived in Ahmici until February

    2 1993, throughout that period did Dragan train Croatian

    3 soldiers?

    4 A. Train Croatian soldiers? No. How could

    5 Dragan possibly do that?

    6 Q. Was he in charge of any political gatherings

    7 or political meetings?

    8 A. No. This was not something that he was

    9 interested in.

    10 Q. The family of Dragan Papic, the family of

    11 your uncle, was there any member from that family who

    12 showed any signs of nationalistic orientation, who made

    13 any differences amongst people on the basis their

    14 nationality?

    15 A. No. We never felt that in any way in the

    16 entire family of ours, I mean, all of us. We didn't

    17 make any differences. We didn't notice anything in

    18 that regard.

    19 Q. How much do you know about the mosque and the

    20 way it was built?

    21 A. I know quite a few things about that.

    22 Q. Could you -- could you describe that for us a

    23 little bit? And I'm referring to the lower mosque.

    24 A. Yes, I will.

    25 Q. Do you know who the contractor was? Did your

  27. 1 neighbours help build the mosque?

    2 A. Well, yes. There was this man whom we called

    3 Hadzija. He was the main donor for that purpose, and

    4 he was in charge of building the mosque. We all gave

    5 something at the very beginning when the foundations

    6 were being laid. We all made our contribution. It's a

    7 custom in our village and everybody did that.

    8 Q. Did you also work there?

    9 A. Yes. When the mosque was finished, when the

    10 construction of the mosque was finished, my uncle did

    11 some plumbing work and I also helped, myself.

    12 Q. Did you charge them for that?

    13 A. No, it was not normally charged. We never

    14 charged our services for that purpose.

    15 Q. So your uncle didn't ask for any payment?

    16 A. No. No. I know that for sure.

    17 Q. Do you have any knowledge of Dragan helping

    18 his father during his free time?

    19 A. Yes. Whenever he had free time he would help

    20 his father. When there was a lot of work to do he

    21 tried to help him as much as he could.

    22 Q. What were your activities in 1992-1993,

    23 before your accident?

    24 A. I'm an electrical engineer, and I also worked

    25 in the field of electronics. I repaired TV sets, radio

  28. 1 sets and so on.

    2 Q. Did you repair appliances of all people in

    3 your village?

    4 A. Yes. I would go to Muslim houses, Croat

    5 houses alike. This was my job ever since 1984.

    6 Q. Did you know Mehmed Ahmic Sudzuka well?

    7 A. Yes, I know him very well.

    8 Q. He was your neighbour?

    9 A. Yes, he was.

    10 Q. In your neighbourhood did Sudzuka have a

    11 close relative of his?

    12 A. Yes. He had some close family there, Alija's

    13 sons, for example.

    14 Q. What are their names?

    15 A. Abdulah Ahmic, Munir Ahmic, Muris Ahmic.

    16 Q. Thank you. That means that Abdulah Ahmic and

    17 Mehmed Ahmic are related in the same way as you and

    18 Dragan are related?

    19 A. Yes, that's correct.

    20 Q. What was Mehmed Ahmic doing? What was his

    21 job?

    22 A. He was involved in politics, and he had a

    23 shop in his house.

    24 Q. Do you know whether he belonged to any

    25 political party?

  29. 1 A. He was a member of the SDA party.

    2 Q. What did you think of him, and do you know

    3 what other people thought of him and what were your

    4 relations with him?

    5 A. Yes, I knew what people thought about him.

    6 People didn't really like him, Croats and Muslims

    7 alike, because he had debts to many people, something

    8 having to do with the construction of his new house.

    9 Q. Could you tell us what the distance is

    10 between your house and the house of Mehmed Ahmic? You

    11 don't need to be very precise.

    12 A. You mean between my house?

    13 Q. Yes, between your husband and the house of

    14 Mehmed Ahmic?

    15 A. Well, approximately 100 metres.

    16 Q. And what would be the distance between the

    17 house of Mehmed Ahmic and the wood we discussed earlier

    18 on?

    19 A. About 150 metres.

    20 MS. PINTER: Can I ask the assistance of the

    21 usher, please?

    22 THE REGISTRAR: Document is marked D26/5.

    23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel,

    24 please.

    25 A. This is a document from the land registry of

  30. 1 the Vitez municipality.

    2 MS. PINTER:

    3 Q. Who normally issues such documents?

    4 A. Such a document would normally be issued by

    5 land registry.

    6 Q. Can you see the entire house of yours on this

    7 document?

    8 A. Yes. The whole house is here.

    9 Q. What about the wood?

    10 A. The wood is not here, not all of it.

    11 MS. PINTER: Can I again have the assistance

    12 of the usher, please?

    13 THE REGISTRAR: Document D27/5.

    14 MS. PINTER:

    15 Q. Have you had a look at it? This is something

    16 that -- it's called the area situation. Can you see

    17 this document? On this document you can see the

    18 distances between facilities. Can you see that?

    19 A. Yes, I can.

    20 Q. Do you think that that realistically depicts

    21 a situation on the ground? Do these distances

    22 correspond to the distances between Mehmed Ahmic's

    23 house, the edge of the wood and so on?

    24 A. I don't think that everything is here. This

    25 portion, for example, this portion of the wood is

  31. 1 missing from the plan, so the distance is even greater

    2 now. Well, I don't know about the period then.

    3 Q. Yes, but the distance between the house and

    4 the edge of the wood from the left side or from the

    5 right side?

    6 A. Yes, that is okay. It was next to the edge

    7 of the wood.

    8 Q. Thank you. Let us move back to the month of

    9 October 1992, the 20th of October, to be more precise.

    10 On that day, from the wood behind your house,

    11 from any part of the wood, did anyone shoot at the

    12 house of Mehmed Ahmic from any kind of weapon?

    13 A. To the best my knowledge nobody shot from

    14 that area, because I spent most of that day in the

    15 middle of the wood because I was afraid.

    16 Q. On that day and on subsequent days, near the

    17 house of your mother and near the house of Ivo Papic,

    18 in the direction of the house of Ljubica Milicevic, was

    19 there ever a PAT or a PAM weapon that was sited there?

    20 A. No, it was never there. It was impossible to

    21 site that weapon in that area because of the number of

    22 small children in the area.

    23 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness's

    24 microphone be switched on, please?

    25 Q. So you are sure that on the 20th of October,

  32. 1 nobody opened fire from the wood on the house of

    2 Sudjuka?

    3 A. No. From our wood, nobody opened fire on the

    4 house of Sudjuka.

    5 Q. Was Dragan with you in the wood?

    6 A. No. Dragan was absent throughout that day,

    7 the 20th of October, and later on I heard he had spent

    8 the whole day in Rovna.

    9 Q. Do you have any knowledge about weapons in

    10 general?

    11 A. Yes, I can recognise most types.

    12 Q. The PAT and the PAM, what kind of weapons are

    13 they, the anti-aircraft weapons? Are they long-range

    14 weapons?

    15 A. Yes, they are.

    16 Q. We have seen that the distance was 150

    17 metres, approximately. Is that a long distance for

    18 that type of weapon? Is it efficient on that distance?

    19 A. One cannot adequately position that kind of

    20 weapon this kind of distance. This is simply too close

    21 for it, and it's not possible.

    22 Q. The house of Mehmed Ahmic you said was

    23 damaged, at the beginning, it was damaged during the

    24 conflict?

    25 A. Yes, that's correct.

  33. 1 Q. According to your knowledge, what caused the

    2 damage on the house? Do you have any knowledge of

    3 that?

    4 A. Well, at one point we realised that the house

    5 was damaged, that the roof of the house was damaged.

    6 Q. What caused the damage of the roof?

    7 A. It was caused by some kind of impact.

    8 Q. Did you see that?

    9 A. No, we couldn't see that. We simply heard

    10 that. And after that the house caught fire, and

    11 because of the way it was built, because of the

    12 construction of the house and the number of beams and

    13 lumber, it caught fire very quickly.

    14 Q. This is what you learned later on?

    15 A. Yes, that's correct.

    16 Q. So according to your opinion, the house was

    17 probably hit in the roof area?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. Did you ever see Dragan carry or fire from a

    20 sniper rifle?

    21 A. No, I don't think that he ever owned a sniper

    22 rifle, and I never saw him with one.

    23 Q. Did you see him or did you hear any

    24 complaints about his intimidating Muslims?

    25 A. In view of his character, I don't think that

  34. 1 Dragan would ever intimidate anyone or verbally abuse

    2 anyone, and I never heard any stories like that.

    3 Q. Who lived in the house of Ivo Papic?

    4 A. Ivo Papic; Dragica Papic; Ivanka Papic,

    5 Dragan's sister; Goran Papic; and Dragan Papic.

    6 Q. Do you know when Dragan's wife gave birth to

    7 Marin?

    8 A. I know that it happened in late April 1993.

    9 Q. When did you see Dragan in that time, for the

    10 first time?

    11 A. It was in mid-1993, or even later.

    12 Q. Let us go back to your neighbours. You said

    13 that Abdulah Ahmic and Mehmed Ahmic were cousins?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. What about Muris Ahmic? Is he in any way

    16 related to Abdulah Ahmic and Mehmed Ahmic?

    17 A. Muris is Abdulah's brother.

    18 Q. Thank you.

    19 MS. PINTER: Your Honours, this concludes my

    20 examination of this witness, and I would like to tender

    21 into evidence D26/5 and D27/5.

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    23 No objection? They are admitted into

    24 evidence.

    25 I will turn now to Counsel Pavkovic to ask

  35. 1 whether there is any Defence counsel prepared to

    2 cross-examine this witness.

    3 MR. PAVKOVIC: Yes, Your Honour, thank you.

    4 Mr. Luka Susak has some questions for this witness.

    5 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    6 Counsel Susak?

    7 MR. SUSAK: Thank you, Mr. President. I will

    8 try to be as brief as possible.

    9 Cross-examined by Mr. Susak:

    10 Q. Witness, you said the village guards had been

    11 established, and you also told us that there had been

    12 no commander of such village guards; but was there a

    13 person who was in charge of scheduling and assigning

    14 people to village guards?

    15 A. We organised ourselves on our own, and

    16 sometimes we would say, "Well, today I'm in charge of

    17 assigning people." But it was almost like a joke; we

    18 didn't have a real command at all.

    19 Q. I'm not asking you about command; I would

    20 just like to know whether anyone was in charge of

    21 recording who went where.

    22 A. We did not have any kind of register like

    23 that.

    24 Q. Do you know Slavko Milicevic?

    25 A. Yes, I know him.

  36. 1 Q. Was he a member of the village guard?

    2 A. No, he wasn't.

    3 MR. SUSAK: Thank you, Mr. President. I have

    4 no further questions.

    5 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you so much, Counsel

    6 Susak.

    7 We may start with the cross-examination of --

    8 Mr. Blaxill, would you prefer to take a break now, and

    9 then we start in 30 minutes?

    10 MR. BLAXILL: Well, I'm entirely in Your

    11 Honour's hands, but if you care to take the break now,

    12 I would be quite content with that, and we can get

    13 started afresh then.

    14 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, all right. So we will

    15 take a 30-minute break now.

    16 --- Recess taken at 10.25 a.m.

    17 --- Upon resuming at 10.55 a.m.

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Blaxill?

    19 MR. BLAXILL: Thank you, Your Honours.

    20 I think it might be appropriate at this point

    21 if I refer Your Honours to the book from which extracts

    22 were used in the last hearing, and you required that we

    23 should have this book in its entirety ready for

    24 service. It has been served this morning on all

    25 Defence counsel. Copies have been made available and

  37. 1 ready for the use of yourselves, Your Honours, and the

    2 only thing is we don't have a number for it yet. So

    3 perhaps if a number could be assigned, that will assist

    4 us in future cross-examinations.

    5 THE REGISTRAR: The number will be 353.

    6 MR. BLAXILL: Thank you.

    7 JUDGE CASSESE: Prosecution Exhibit.

    8 MR. BLAXILL: I wonder, then, if that

    9 exhibit, please, could be shown to the witness. But at

    10 page 99, 15 lines up from the bottom, that is the only

    11 reference I shall be making to this document.

    12 Cross-examined by Mr. Blaxill:

    13 Q. Mr. Papic, good morning to you, sir. My name

    14 is Michael Blaxill. I am one of the prosecutors

    15 assigned to this case. I do have a few questions to

    16 ask as a result of your evidence this morning, but the

    17 first thing I will ask you is: Have you served any

    18 time served in the HVO?

    19 A. I have.

    20 Q. If you look at an entry 15 lines from the

    21 bottom of that page numbered 99, does that reference in

    22 fact refer to yourself?

    23 A. Yes. Yes, it does.

    24 Q. And is that your signature to the right-hand

    25 side in the last-but-one column?

  38. 1 A. It is, yes.

    2 Q. Mr. Papic, I would ask you, if you would, to

    3 indicate why it is at that particular time you served

    4 from the 8th of April, 1992, until October the 1st of

    5 1992, and that appears to be the end of your official

    6 HVO service. Is that correct?

    7 A. No. I didn't spend this whole period in the

    8 HVO. I didn't join the HVO in April as a soldier.

    9 Q. Well, the entry for the 8th of April, you

    10 have signed for the details in that form. It does say

    11 the 8th of April of that year is your start date and

    12 the 1st of October is your finish date. Are you saying

    13 that those dates are not accurate?

    14 A. I'm not saying that the dates are not

    15 accurate, but simply I know that I wasn't in the army

    16 in that period. For instance, in April, I wasn't in

    17 the army. But it's written here as if I had been.

    18 I don't know how to put it. This is a

    19 written document, maybe for the benefit of shares or

    20 for some other reason this date is indicated. I don't

    21 know why this date has been written down here.

    22 Q. So were you in fact, though, a serving HVO

    23 member, let us say, at the date of the 30th of

    24 September, 1992? In other words, the day before you

    25 appear to have had your service finished, according to

  39. 1 the book. Were you actually in the HVO then?

    2 A. But which year?

    3 Q. 1992.

    4 A. No, not officially, as a professional

    5 soldier. I was still not a professional soldier.

    6 Q. Does that mean you were some form of reserve

    7 soldier?

    8 A. Yes, I was in the reserve, yes.

    9 Q. Again, though, it does seem perhaps a little

    10 strange that at October '92, things being as they were,

    11 that you appear then to have ceased service. Is that

    12 so, or in fact is that date wrong?

    13 A. No, my service didn't cease then. I started

    14 officially in May or June in 1993. I don't know

    15 exactly when I joined as a professional soldier.

    16 Q. So you can't really explain why those

    17 particular two dates have been applied to you in that

    18 form, in that document?

    19 A. This period until April, I think that is why,

    20 because until April 1992, I was still working in my

    21 enterprise, my company. And then they told us simply

    22 not to come to work any more, and so I stopped

    23 working. Perhaps they wanted to link up this period so

    24 that there would be no interruption in my years of

    25 service; maybe that is why they linked up these dates.

  40. 1 Q. Did anybody explain that to you when you, in

    2 fact, signed alongside this information, when you

    3 placed your signature there?

    4 A. Only now do I see that one really has to read

    5 carefully something that you sign. They didn't explain

    6 it well to us at all. They said that they would be

    7 linking our work service with our military service.

    8 Q. Thank you. So you say that during 1992 you

    9 were serving in the village guard. That is right?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. And for a portion of the year that was a

    12 joint guard with Muslim neighbours?

    13 A. Yes, it was joint guard with the Muslims

    14 until the 19th of October, '92.

    15 Q. You've indicated that the weapons you were

    16 supplied with came from the local TO, is that correct,

    17 the Territorial Defence?

    18 A. Yes, that is correct. They gave the

    19 weapons.

    20 Q. Did you not have anybody who at least acted

    21 as a kind of coordinator or person to help run the

    22 village guard and issue instructions to the various

    23 groups who were patrolling?

    24 A. There was no coordination at all. We

    25 organised ourselves and we assigned the shifts. May I

  41. 1 continue?

    2 Q. Please do.

    3 A. Since the shelling started, because we were

    4 told that we had to self-organise ourselves, and this

    5 was announced over the public media. They simply

    6 announced that because of the danger of sabotage groups

    7 and air raids, to save the women and children.

    8 Q. Therefore, performing those guard duties who

    9 did you believe that you were guarding the civilians

    10 from? Who was the enemy at that time?

    11 A. The Yugoslav People's Army.

    12 Q. Would it be true to say that, in fact, that

    13 then became essentially the forces of the Serbs, the

    14 Bosnian Serb forces? Would than right?

    15 A. Yes, the Bosnian Serbs together with the

    16 Yugoslav People's Army.

    17 Q. So as far as you were concerned as a member

    18 of the village guard, that was the focus of your

    19 attention, it was the -- what has been described as the

    20 Serb aggression. There were no problems with your

    21 Muslim neighbours at that time?

    22 A. No. We didn't have any problems with our

    23 Muslim neighbours, and that is why we kept guard duty

    24 together. As we didn't have sufficient number of

    25 weapons, we would pass on the weapons on to our

  42. 1 neighbours. For example, I gave my gun to my neighbour

    2 Fakan because he didn't have one at the time, or at

    3 least he pretended he didn't have one.

    4 Q. So when you were performing that guard duty

    5 did you have at least any contact with any other units

    6 of guards, or did you have contact with any form of

    7 headquarters place to report anything that might

    8 happen?

    9 A. Most frequently we were divided into small

    10 groups, and it was easiest to organise the shifts and

    11 for us to co-operate amongst ourselves, because we had

    12 our own tasks. In the event of an air raid, we would

    13 want families to go to the shelters because we feared

    14 air raids most.

    15 Q. Did you have any form of communications,

    16 however, in case your community was attacked, that you

    17 could summon some help or you could report what was

    18 happening? Did you have any lines of communication for

    19 that?

    20 A. There were telephone lines, but we could, for

    21 instance, call the civilian police if we needed them.

    22 Q. Did you know Mr. Nenad Santic at that time?

    23 A. Yes, I did know him.

    24 Q. Is it correct that Mr. Nenad Santic became a

    25 member of the HVO and was very much involved in the

  43. 1 organisation of HVO and indeed of the village guards in

    2 the overall area of Ahmici, particularly Santici?

    3 A. I didn't quite understand your question.

    4 Q. Were you aware of any role performed by

    5 Mr. Nenad Santic in organising or controlling village

    6 guards and/or HVO personnel in and around

    7 Santici-Ahmici area?

    8 A. Nenad Santic, in another area, in the area of

    9 Zume, for instance, this is another part that is

    10 divided by a kind of veil, and so we didn't have much

    11 contact.

    12 Q. Now, if I may move on then to the date the

    13 19th of October of 1992. You made mention of being on

    14 guard and that you saw some people moving by a fence.

    15 Can you be a bit more explicit as to what you mean by

    16 people moving by a fence and where was the fence?

    17 A. It wasn't a fence, it was a hedge, like a

    18 hedge. It was in parts quite high and in other parts

    19 it was low, and they passed north of that hedge, 10, 15

    20 metres behind the hedge towards the west, and they

    21 passed along that path. There was a large group of

    22 uniformed men. It was just before dark fell, so we

    23 couldn't see them well, but one did wonder what so many

    24 soldiers were doing there at that time.

    25 When I said -- I said to Fahran, "Why won't

  44. 1 you keep watch duty with us?" After that we couldn't

    2 see the soldiers any more.

    3 Q. So is it correct to say that you cannot say

    4 whether those soldiers were, in fact, HVO personnel, or

    5 whether they were ABiH personnel or a group of village

    6 guards wearing combat kit? I mean, you cannot tell the

    7 difference?

    8 A. I can tell the difference.

    9 Q. You said it was very dark -- it was getting

    10 dark and that you couldn't really tell who they were.

    11 A. Can I explain?

    12 Q. Please do.

    13 A. I could tell, because we were together with

    14 the Muslims keeping village guards, and this was not

    15 customary movement, because this is a field owned by

    16 Muslims and it was never used to go around houses,

    17 because if you went up to a house you would use the

    18 main road. So we were already suspicious at seeing

    19 them crossing the fields rather than taking paths.

    20 Q. But I put it again to you, Mr. Papic, that

    21 you are not able for certainty to say whether they were

    22 troops from the ABiH or whether they were from the

    23 HVO. You couldn't make it out clearly enough. That's

    24 correct, isn't it?

    25 A. But we could intimate. We could assume that

  45. 1 they were Muslims, that they were Muslim troops,

    2 because it was not customary. But we were not

    3 disturbed by that so much that night.

    4 Q. Indeed. You said you had no reason to

    5 suspect problems with the Muslims at that time, and I'm

    6 suggesting that what you're saying now is just

    7 speculating after the event and suggesting that these

    8 people were necessarily Muslim soldiers.

    9 Mr. Papic, the following morning, the 20th of

    10 October of 1992, you say there was firing very early

    11 on, so you endeavoured to get your family away from

    12 your home and you did so and went into the woods, I

    13 believe to the south of your property. Is that so,

    14 sir?

    15 A. Southeast from my house we headed to the

    16 woods.

    17 Q. When you were in the woods you -- did you

    18 send your family on to seek shelter elsewhere?

    19 A. Yes, I did send my family away to seek

    20 shelter, because that was the only direction they could

    21 go along to safety.

    22 Q. I believe that was the direction, was it, of

    23 Donja Rovna?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. I believe you said, sir, also that your

  46. 1 cousin Mr. Dragan Papic went in that same direction

    2 with his family -- or lady members of his family; is

    3 that correct?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. Can you advise me, sir, why you, therefore,

    6 remained in the woods? Why didn't you go and seek

    7 shelter with your family, follow your cousin?

    8 A. Because my house was exposed to direct

    9 gunfire, and I thought they would shoot again so I

    10 wanted to see what was happening. In the meantime, my

    11 mother and younger brother had stayed behind, and I

    12 wanted to go back to see what had happened to them.

    13 That was one of the reasons.

    14 Q. Were there other male Croats in the woods

    15 with you at that time whose families had gone on and

    16 they were, just young men of military age in the woods?

    17 A. Yes. There was Goran Papic, Rafael

    18 Milicevic, Ivica Papic. I can't recall any others.

    19 Q. Were any of you armed at that time?

    20 A. Amongst us? I had a M-48 rifle, and I think

    21 there was another M-48 rifle but I don't know who had

    22 it.

    23 Q. I would advise you we've heard in this very

    24 Chamber from Mr. Mehmed Ahmic. You know him, you've

    25 mentioned him. He referred to a number of people he

  47. 1 saw in the woods who were using weapons, and there were

    2 a number of people he saw, and your name is amongst

    3 them; "Pero Papic, Slavko and Rafael Milicevic and a

    4 few other people. I didn't recognise the others. They

    5 were all my neighbours."

    6 So Mr. Ahmic was correct, sir, when he said

    7 that he would have seen you in the woods in company

    8 with some of these other people and indeed some of you

    9 armed. So he was correct in that description, would

    10 that be so?

    11 A. I can immediately negate that because -- if

    12 he mentioned Slavko Milicevic. Slavko Milicevic wasn't

    13 in the house that day at all. He may have been

    14 guessing who was in the woods. Slavko Milicevic was in

    15 Split on that day.

    16 Q. But he certainly refers to yourself and

    17 Rafael Milicevic and, of course, at that point early in

    18 the day Mr. Dragan Papic, all having been in the wood

    19 and you say that that is so. Now --

    20 A. Dragan Papic was not in the wood at all.

    21 Q. Well, he had gone on through the woods to

    22 take his wife and family to shelter, I believe.

    23 A. He passed through the woods but very early

    24 on. Mehmed couldn't have seen that.

    25 Q. Are you aware of what Mr. Dragan Papic did

  48. 1 for the rest of that day?

    2 A. Until the end of that day I don't know at all

    3 what he did, I just know that he left, and then

    4 afterwards there were stories but I can't testify to

    5 that.

    6 Q. You are aware, are you, that your cousin,

    7 Mr. Dragan Papic, was a former JNA soldier doing his

    8 national service; is that correct?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. Were you aware of any special skills he

    11 acquired during his JNA service like the ability to use

    12 a mortar?

    13 A. I'm not aware of that, because we didn't

    14 discuss national service very much at all amongst us.

    15 Q. If I suggest to you, sir, something we've

    16 heard in this Chamber to the effect that Mr. Dragan

    17 Papic spent a good proportion of the day armed with a

    18 mortar in the region of Donja Rovna, would you -- would

    19 that come as a surprise to you, or is that something

    20 you have subsequently heard took place?

    21 A. I heard that three or four days later, but

    22 people keep making things up.

    23 Q. Sir, you say that later on, after this

    24 initial firing that occurred on the 20th of October,

    25 there was a call upon Croats to surrender, and then was

  49. 1 there some more firing after that?

    2 A. After the conflict do you mean?

    3 Q. After the call you say came from the minaret,

    4 did you hear -- was there any more shooting? Did

    5 anything more happen?

    6 A. Yes, yes, there was more shooting but it was

    7 not for very long. It was of lesser intensity.

    8 Q. Eventually that shooting came to an end. And

    9 had you remained in the woods throughout the whole

    10 period?

    11 A. Yes, throughout that period. That was the

    12 only shelter we had, so our movement was limited to the

    13 woods. Even the HVO army that was passing fired

    14 directly at us into the woods. We were afraid. We

    15 didn't know it was them. We thought it was the Muslims

    16 that were about to surround us. They were coming from

    17 the eastern side. The fire from coming from the east.

    18 Q. So in point of fact, you're saying that you

    19 even came under fire from some HVO people at that time?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. So we've heard description that the cause of

    22 the conflict on the 20th of October was essentially a

    23 road checkpoint set up by Muslim forces near the

    24 cemetery, and that passed -- an HVO force trying to get

    25 to Jajce to fight in the lines was stopped. Does that

  50. 1 description agree with your memory of what you were

    2 told?

    3 A. That is what I learned subsequently. I

    4 learned that later. Maybe it was the 22nd when I

    5 learned why the conflict had erupted.

    6 At first I thought that the only -- their

    7 only goal was to attack us, our houses.

    8 Q. But the reality of it is that the violence

    9 that occurred was when the HVO attacked that roadblock

    10 to try and get it removed, and that's what the outbreak

    11 of violence between the two forces was all about, isn't

    12 at that correct, sir?

    13 A. No. I think not, because the first shots, I

    14 think, were fired at my house, according to what I

    15 learned later on in the next few days. The first shots

    16 were fired at my house, a burst of fire.

    17 Q. You were unable, I presume, sir, to see who

    18 fired those shots?

    19 A. No, I couldn't see because there was a thick

    20 fog.

    21 Q. So we have foggy conditions. We have clearly

    22 what ended up in a forcible attack by the HVO to remove

    23 the roadblock, and, therefore, we can't be sure where

    24 those shots came from that first you say hit your

    25 premises?

  51. 1 A. I beg your pardon? It wasn't an HVO attack,

    2 it was an attack by the Muslims forces.

    3 Q. Yet prior to the outbreak of shooting, if I

    4 understand you correctly, the only thing that showed

    5 the presence of Muslim forces was the fact that they

    6 had set up a checkpoint, which is a different thing,

    7 wouldn't you agree, not an attack?

    8 A. May I stand up and show you the difference on

    9 the map in terms of area, so that I can show you the

    10 distance between the two?

    11 (Indicating) This is the hedge here, you see,

    12 and there were large groups of Muslim forces here, and

    13 the roadblock was here near the cemetery. There were

    14 trenches there, and there were also trenches in this

    15 part of the cemetery here, in the very corner. And

    16 here there's a large concrete fence, so they already

    17 had a man-made shelter.

    18 Later I learned they put up the barricades,

    19 and I went to see later on what had happened, because I

    20 was interested. I was curious. It's quite far.

    21 In my view, the aim was to attack these seven

    22 Croat houses because they wanted to eliminate us from

    23 there. They wanted to strategically link this part of

    24 territory and to cut across the bridge. We learned

    25 that later. They told us themselves that that was

  52. 1 their goal, to link up with the Muslim parts of Gornja

    2 Rovna, Vranjska, and again Muslim settlements here.

    3 That was the closest way to link up their forces and

    4 territories.

    5 Q. I presume you were not serving in the

    6 military at the time, so with respect, isn't this just

    7 your subsequent speculation about what people must

    8 have --

    9 A. It is my opinion, yes, my opinion.

    10 Q. Now, in the course of your evidence, you said

    11 that on that day, the 20th of October, Muslims were

    12 leaving the Ahmici area, is that correct, as well as

    13 Croats?

    14 A. Yes, it is correct. The Muslims left the

    15 lower part, as far as I know. As for the upper part of

    16 Ahmici, I couldn't know about that.

    17 Q. You have said that they started to return to

    18 their homes when they were in fact called by Croat

    19 neighbours and invited to come back?

    20 A. Yes, the Croats invited them on the 21st,

    21 immediately, to come back.

    22 Q. If the events in that day had been action by

    23 the ABiH, the Muslim forces, to secure territory or to

    24 clear out Croats, does that not seem inconsistent with

    25 the fact that Muslims then left the area, and it was

  53. 1 the Croats who were inviting them back to their

    2 houses? That does seem an inconsistent pair of

    3 propositions.

    4 A. Well, let me see; there is a contradiction.

    5 Their abortive attack caused them to retreat from that

    6 area, and troops came from outside that were meant to

    7 cause a dispute between good neighbours. This is what

    8 we learned later on. We were also surprised that

    9 heading that operation was Muris Ahmic, who was one of

    10 my closest neighbours.

    11 Q. Do you recall, sir, what actually happened to

    12 Mr. Muris Ahmic? Is he still alive? Is he still

    13 around?

    14 A. I know, because I learned later on what

    15 happened, and I know that he's not alive. But what

    16 actually happened to him, I don't know.

    17 Q. When the Muslims started to return to that

    18 village, did you know anything about the terms in which

    19 they would do so, or any agreements reached between

    20 Muslims and Croats as to the sort of conditions that

    21 would prevail between them?

    22 A. No, all I know is what I heard on the media,

    23 rather on the radio. I know that the Croats invited

    24 them. I know that from media reports. As for any

    25 personal knowledge, I couldn't have any. I couldn't

  54. 1 deal with whether people would come back or not. I had

    2 no decision-making powers.

    3 Q. I believe you've said, Mr. Papic, that you

    4 had some form of accident in -- was it February of

    5 1993?

    6 A. Yes, in October, 1993, I had a car accident.

    7 The car I had at the time was a Zastava 750 -- sorry,

    8 not October; it was in February.

    9 Q. Now, if I may ask, sir, how badly injured

    10 were you in that car accident? I believe you did have

    11 to go to hospital; is that right?

    12 A. Yes. It was a very serious accident. I

    13 spent four days in the hospital in Travnik. I had an

    14 arm fracture, I had an interior haemorrhage, and they

    15 told me that my heart was also injured, and I had to

    16 rest for about 20 days. I'm not an expert in medicine,

    17 but anyhow, I spent four days in hospital in Travnik.

    18 After that, I was transferred; due to the

    19 shelling that came from Vlasic Mount, I was transferred

    20 somewhere else because they didn't want to risk any

    21 further problems. So I was transferred to the hospital

    22 in Nova Bila.

    23 Q. When were you able to return home after your

    24 hospital treatment?

    25 A. I returned home on the 3rd of -- on the 3rd

  55. 1 of March, 1993.

    2 Q. I presume, sir, did you stay home

    3 recuperating from your injuries for the weeks that

    4 followed that?

    5 A. I still had splints on my leg. I had a

    6 bandage on my arm which I had to carry for a while. I

    7 stayed at home for about ten days, and then my sister

    8 suggested that I should come to her house in Busovaca,

    9 because my wife was having a difficult time because I

    10 couldn't move. So she suggested that we came to her

    11 place in Busovaca. So we went there, and I don't know

    12 exactly when it happened, but it may have been around

    13 the 14th or the 15th.

    14 Q. Of March; is that correct? 14th or 15th of

    15 March?

    16 A. Yes, of March.

    17 Q. And so if we go one month later, to the 15th

    18 and 16th of April, I believe you did say that you were

    19 still in Busovaca at that time?

    20 A. Yes. I was in Busovaca.

    21 Q. In fact, just for the record, if I could ask

    22 you: Can you tell me what the exact date of your car

    23 accident was, the date in February?

    24 A. Yes, of course. On the 10th of February.

    25 Q. Now --

  56. 1 A. Do you need the exact time of the accident?

    2 Q. If you recall the time, yes.

    3 A. At 3 p.m.

    4 Q. Thank you.

    5 So obviously you had no personal experience

    6 of the events in Ahmici on the 16th of April, 1993?

    7 That would be correct to say?

    8 A. No, I don't have any personal experience.

    9 Q. You of course were a cousin of Mr. Dragan

    10 Papic and have described that he was a forester and

    11 from time to time would wear a uniform. Could you

    12 describe what types of uniform he would wear at

    13 different times?

    14 A. Most frequently he would wear only one part

    15 of the uniform, the upper part of the uniform, and he

    16 would wear the normal trousers. He didn't have any

    17 special trousers, any special clothes.

    18 Q. What colour was the upper part uniform he

    19 would wear?

    20 A. Greenish. Green and grey.

    21 Q. Would that be described as a camouflage

    22 uniform, or is the camouflage a different type of

    23 pattern?

    24 A. Well, you can describe it as a camouflage

    25 uniform, yes.

  57. 1 Q. Have you ever seen Mr. Papic wearing or in

    2 possession of a black uniform, or part of uniform?

    3 A. I only know that he had a blue vest.

    4 Q. Blue can be many things: Can you say how

    5 dark or how light that blue was?

    6 A. Dark blue, yes. Dark blue.

    7 Q. Now, you've described Mr. Papic as one who

    8 did not come out with political comments or

    9 particularly nationalist comments. I think, to quote

    10 you, he only liked motor cars, not politics.

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. However, as relations with the Muslims

    13 deteriorated in the early part of 1993, was there any

    14 change in attitude on the part of Mr. Dragan Papic, if

    15 only to be more protective towards Croats, or something

    16 like that?

    17 A. Well, of course, we all changed in that

    18 period. The population as a whole changed. People no

    19 longer trusted one another.

    20 Q. So, true to say that a political situation

    21 like that in fact you say produced a change in

    22 everybody; you couldn't avoid changing, perhaps. Yeah?

    23 A. Yes. I mean, everybody. It's very difficult

    24 not to change in such a period.

    25 Q. I believe at the time it was customary that

  58. 1 particularly on religious holidays or something like

    2 that that national flags would be flown on people's

    3 homes. If it was a Muslim holiday, the Muslims, and

    4 Croats, it would be on the Croat holiday. Would that

    5 be correct?

    6 A. Yes. Yes. That's correct.

    7 Q. Is it true, therefore, that the house of Ivo

    8 Papic, the flags would fly on the appropriate festive

    9 days, just like any other Croat family celebrating such

    10 an event?

    11 A. Yes, a Croat flag was flown.

    12 Q. Do you recall that at times when the tensions

    13 had grown greater between the communities, that the

    14 Croat flag in fact remained longer on the Papic

    15 household? It wasn't just up there for the odd

    16 religious holiday?

    17 A. Well, I didn't pay much attention to that,

    18 because at the time, it was normal.

    19 Q. At the time you say it was normal to see

    20 Croat flags or any flags on houses quite a lot. Sir,

    21 Mr. Mehmed Ahmic, you stated he was not liked by people

    22 because he ran up a lot of debts. Is it true that

    23 people also perhaps disliked his political attitude?

    24 Did he assume a political attitude when he was in the

    25 SDA party?

  59. 1 A. I don't think that that was the problem. And

    2 I think that Croats liked him more than the Muslims;

    3 that's my personal opinion. There were other reasons,

    4 of course, and I learned through conversations with

    5 people about him. And that was my impression at the

    6 time, the impression that I got from other people as

    7 well.

    8 Q. Mr. Dragan Papic did possess a rifle, did he

    9 not?

    10 A. I don't know that. I really don't know

    11 anything about that.

    12 Q. You were aware of his occupation as a

    13 forester, I believe, sir? But you --

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. Sorry, I spoke over you; I apologise.

    16 A. Well, I don't know whether he personally was

    17 issued with that rifle. I don't know if it belonged to

    18 him or whether it belonged to the forestry.

    19 Q. Right. Perhaps I'll rephrase it to be more

    20 accurate: Were you aware that he had possession of a

    21 rifle?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. Did that rifle have a telescopic sight, for

    24 accuracy?

    25 A. No.

  60. 1 Q. Was that a rifle that is a single-shot rifle

    2 of some accuracy?

    3 A. No, I think it's a kind of rifle with a

    4 five-bullet clip.

    5 Q. But to your recollection, do you ever recall

    6 seeing Mr. Dragan Papic carrying a weapon?

    7 A. When he would go to work or coming home from

    8 work, yes, I know that he would carry it at that time.

    9 But only occasionally.

    10 Q. Could you -- or do you recall, of the members

    11 of the Papic family living in the house of Ivo Papic,

    12 can you recall what motor cars they owned between them

    13 on or about the 15th of April, 1993? Do you know what

    14 cars they happened to own?

    15 A. At home, there were always quite a few

    16 vehicles around their house. According to my

    17 knowledge, Dragan had an orange Stojadin.

    18 Q. As you lived in the vicinity, had you ever

    19 noticed Mr. Dragan driving different cars? Possibly

    20 ones he's repairing for friends, I suppose, but have

    21 you seen him driving a variety of different cars over

    22 the years?

    23 A. Yes, I would see him driving different cars.

    24 This would last only for two or three hours; he would

    25 only test the vehicles. He would sometimes go to

  61. 1 Vjetrenice in order to test the engine, to see if the

    2 engine would heat up. This is what I know.

    3 MR. BLAXILL: I'd like just a brief moment to

    4 confer with my colleagues, if you please, Your Honour.

    5 Q. Well, Mr. Papic, thank you, sir, for

    6 answering my questions.

    7 MR. BLAXILL: Your Honour, that concludes my

    8 cross-examination. Thank you.

    9 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I will now call

    10 upon Counsel Pinter.

    11 Before I do so, I wonder whether at some

    12 stage we could hear from the Prosecutor or Defence

    13 counsel a few comments on this document, P353. I

    14 wonder whether they could shed some light on the

    15 purpose and contents of this document. Because now we

    16 have received a copy, but it's in Croatian. And

    17 probably either party can -- or both parties could

    18 explain what it is about, at some stage; not

    19 necessarily now. It's for you to decide. I mean, we

    20 would at some stage like to have some light on this.

    21 Probably the Prosecutor could first of all

    22 try to explain.

    23 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, I think that

    24 last week, during the Friday hearing, we disclosed as

    25 evidence -- and I don't have the exact number, but I

  62. 1 hope it can be found easily -- we disclosed one page

    2 together with a translation of the first page and the

    3 title of the document. So I think that as regards the

    4 translation, this would be enough, because it's the

    5 same form. I think in this way you can orient

    6 yourself. But if you wish, we can give you some

    7 additional translation. But I believe that the

    8 translation of that page has already been disclosed.

    9 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You're right. I

    10 was wrong. I think at that time that we did not have a

    11 translation for certain indications; we didn't know,

    12 for example, what "P" stood for.

    13 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, you're right,

    14 but I cannot help you. I don't know.

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: If the Defence counsel could

    16 perhaps tell us? They told us that it could mean

    17 reservist. But you're not sure?

    18 Thank you. Thank you very much.

    19 Ms. Pinter, you have the floor for the

    20 re-examination.

    21 MS. PINTER: Thank you, Your Honours.

    22 Re-examined by Ms. Pinter:

    23 Q. Mr. Papic, the Prosecutor has shown you a

    24 document -- a list take is now in front of you, and he

    25 wanted your explanation of the dates on it. And I have

  63. 1 a question related to that. I want to know whether you

    2 were employed at the time during the period from April

    3 until October 1992. Did you go to work?

    4 A. No, I was not employed from the 14th of

    5 April, 1992.

    6 Q. At that time, were you a member of the

    7 Croatian Defence Council?

    8 A. No, I was not.

    9 Q. When the Prosecutor asked you about the

    10 village guard, he referred to them as some kind of

    11 duty, some kind of obligation. My question to you is

    12 whether it was compulsory for people to be members of

    13 the village guard, or was it simply on a voluntary

    14 basis?

    15 A. The fact that we organised ourselves meant

    16 that it was not compulsory. Dragan usually avoided the

    17 village guard, because he was working most of the

    18 time. And people were self-organised, on the basis of

    19 houses and neighbourhoods.

    20 Q. In response to a Prosecutor's question, you

    21 said that the local Territorial Defence provided you

    22 with weapons. I would like to know whether the village

    23 of Ahmici had their Territorial Defence, or whether it

    24 belonged to the Vitez unit.

    25 A. Members of the Territorial Defence were both

  64. 1 Croats and Muslims.

    2 Q. Yes, but was it under the jurisdiction of

    3 Vitez?

    4 A. I don't know that.

    5 Q. We were discussing the objective of the

    6 village guards. You said it was as a protection

    7 against air raids?

    8 A. Yes, that was the main purpose of the village

    9 guards.

    10 Q. Could you explain to us, could you tell us

    11 whether, apart from the air raids, there was any other

    12 form of danger that you were exposed to, were there any

    13 robberies at the time, any attacks?

    14 A. Yes, we all knew that in view of the

    15 situation we had to perform guard duty because there

    16 were lots of sabotage units that could enter the

    17 village at that time.

    18 Q. Did that occur? Did you ever find any

    19 unknown persons in your area during your guard duty?

    20 If you can remember that.

    21 A. Yes, yes, I can. I can answer your

    22 question. We did not have any authority to stop people

    23 to ask them questions. We were simply able to follow

    24 the situation, to observe the situation, and we could

    25 report to the people we knew, if there was anything

  65. 1 suspicious going on.

    2 Q. During the examination-in-chief and the

    3 cross-examination, did the name of Fahrudin Ahmic came

    4 up. Is he still alive?

    5 A. Yes, he is.

    6 Q. I'm saying that because there are two persons

    7 with the same name, and he's your neighbour, he's still

    8 your neighbour?

    9 A. Yes, he is.

    10 Q. The night of the 19th, while you were

    11 performing guard duty, the night between the 19th and

    12 the 20th of October, you mentioned that there was a

    13 group of people near the hedge. In response to a

    14 Prosecutor's question, you said that in view of the

    15 location where these people were, you concluded that

    16 they were members of the BH army, Muslims.

    17 A. Yes, because very -- it was very unusual for

    18 soldiers to move around that area, around the field.

    19 So that was something strange. I believed, and after

    20 we asked Fahrudin Ahmic about that, he probably told

    21 them to move away. So after that, we no longer see

    22 them. So we didn't expect that any conflict would

    23 occur.

    24 Q. So when you told Fahrudin Ahmic that you had

    25 seen a group of people on the field near the hedge, did

  66. 1 he become frightened? Did he show any interest in

    2 knowing who it was?

    3 A. Well, it was as if he already knew. And he

    4 did not provide us with any answer to our questions.

    5 He simply went home.

    6 Q. In response to a Prosecutor's question

    7 regarding the whereabouts of Dragan, you stated that he

    8 had been in Donja Rovna. At any point in time later

    9 on, not that day, but sometime later on, did you ever

    10 discuss his whereabouts?

    11 A. Yes, partly. But it is in my nature not to

    12 want to know everything. Sometimes it's not good to

    13 know everything.

    14 Q. You met with Mr. Santic at a particular

    15 location, and you saw that Dragan met with Mr. Santic

    16 at a particular location; could you tell us how far

    17 that location is and could you also show the exact

    18 location of Anto Papic's house?

    19 A. They met in this area here. (Indicating)

    20 Q. And the house of Anto Papic is near the

    21 railway

    22 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, we can't hear the

    23 witness.

    24 MS. PINTER:

    25 Q. Yes. Could you please switch on the other

  67. 1 microphone, because the interpreters cannot hear you.

    2 A. The house of Anto Papic is here, Dragan and

    3 Nenad met in this area here. (Indicating)

    4 Q. How far is it from the house of Nenad

    5 Santic? How long does it take, half an hour, one hour

    6 to cover the distance?

    7 A. No, no. Only -- it's a ten-minute walk.

    8 There are shortcuts. Depends on which way you go. If

    9 you follow the road then it is much longer.

    10 Q. Was that the usual way that you would -- the

    11 usual path that you would take?

    12 A. No, it was not.

    13 Q. Again in response to a Prosecutor's question,

    14 you said that -- that your house was hit by the HVO.

    15 Can you now say that it was only the HVO who opened

    16 fire on your house? Later on you stated that there was

    17 an attack on the village of Ahmici?

    18 A. No, I deny that. I said that my house was

    19 not attacked by the HVO members but the BH soldiers.

    20 Q. Is it your opinion or were you told by Muris

    21 what the purpose of the attack was, I mean, the attack

    22 of the BH army?

    23 A. No. This is not my opinion. Muris Ahmic

    24 told me about the purpose of the attack, because he led

    25 the operation, and according to him the operation was

  68. 1 supposed to be led by Sivro Bahtija who was already a

    2 member of the Territorial Defence at the time.

    3 Q. This means that when you spoke about the

    4 cause of the attack earlier on and when you were

    5 describing the events that took place on the 21st of

    6 October, you were telling -- you were saying what Muris

    7 Ahmic had told you, not your opinion?

    8 A. Yes. This is what Muris Ahmic told us.

    9 That's how we learned about the purpose of the

    10 operation.

    11 Q. After the attack on the 21st of October,

    12 1992, did Croats go to Upper Ahmici?

    13 A. After the attack, that is after the 21st of

    14 October, on the 22nd and on the 23rd we no longer dared

    15 to go to Ahmici, because we were told that we would be

    16 beaten up if they see us in Ahmici. We didn't need to

    17 go to the Upper Ahmici because the village guards were

    18 in the lower area. They threatened us, so we simply

    19 didn't dare go there. They told Andjelko Vidovic, for

    20 example, that they no longer wanted to see us in the

    21 upper part of the village of Ahmici. I can show you on

    22 the map, for example.

    23 To this area we could move freely, but after

    24 this we were not allowed. (Indicating)

    25 Later on we saw them digging a trench, but

  69. 1 they told us that it was not a trench. They told us

    2 that it was a well, but we realised that a trench had

    3 been dug up over there and that's why they didn't want

    4 us to pass there.

    5 Q. In February 1993, you had your accident and

    6 you stated the date and the time of the accident. You

    7 have the relevant documentation?

    8 A. Yes, I do. I don't have it here.

    9 Q. Where were you hospitalised, intensive care

    10 or traumatology department?

    11 A. Yes, I was at the intensive care ward but

    12 everything was all mixed up in the Travnik hospital at

    13 the area -- at that time, because it was in a kind of a

    14 shelter because of the shelling.

    15 Q. Dragan Papic wore a camouflage uniform, you

    16 said. I wanted to know whether he also wore a forestry

    17 uniform.

    18 A. Well, yes, when he -- he would change into

    19 another uniform. He wouldn't wear the camouflage

    20 uniform all the time, and it was only natural that he

    21 also wore a forestry uniform because he would go to

    22 work.

    23 Q. Were Muslim flags also flown on the houses?

    24 A. Yes, during religious holidays or on other

    25 such occasions.

  70. 1 Q. How long do their holidays last, religious

    2 holidays, do you know?

    3 A. I don't really know how long they last.

    4 Q. Finally, let me ask you to repeat why the

    5 locals did not like Mehmed Ahmic. Maybe the Prosecutor

    6 missed this point, so could you tell us what the

    7 reasons were? Was it his political views or were there

    8 other reasons? Could you be more specific?

    9 A. Mehmed did all kinds of things. He engaged

    10 in business. He would burglarise his own shop to

    11 collect some insurance money, and we all knew that.

    12 Even he didn't conceal the fact. Then he would owe a

    13 lot of people in the village money. I also did some

    14 things for him but I can't say that he owed me money,

    15 he didn't, but many complained about that. They

    16 complained about his behaviour, and he was accepted in

    17 the leadership of the SDA.

    18 Q. No, but we're talking about the local

    19 people.

    20 A. Yes, I see.

    21 Q. In front of Ivo Papic's house, until the

    22 war -- or, rather, until you were there, that is until

    23 February 1993, were there cars in front of that house?

    24 A. Yes, there were.

    25 Q. Were they cars owned by the Papic family?

  71. 1 A. No. There were other cars that were being

    2 repaired there. They would stay there for two, three,

    3 four days.

    4 Q. Very well. One more question. After the

    5 20th of October when you saw Dragan, did Dragan tell

    6 you where he was on the 20th of October?

    7 A. Yes. He said he was in Donja Rovna, but I

    8 didn't ask him about any further details, nor was I

    9 interested in the details as to his movements there.

    10 In any event, he spent the whole day there.

    11 MS. PINTER: Thank you, Your Honours. I have

    12 no further questions.

    13 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. There will be no

    14 objection, I assume, to the witness being released.

    15 Mr. Papic, thank you so much for testifying

    16 in court. You may now be released.

    17 (The witness withdrew)

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: Before we move on to our next

    19 witness, I would like to draw your attention to a

    20 motion which had been filed some time ago, the 11th of

    21 February. It has been told to me by the Registrar that

    22 we have not yet taken any action on the granting of

    23 safe conduct for the witness Josip Vidovic. It was

    24 probably a mistake. I was pretty sure that we had

    25 already issued an order on the issue of safe conduct.

  72. 1 We will do so right away, but before we proceed to the

    2 request of safe conduct, I would like to ask the

    3 Prosecutors whether they have any objection to such

    4 safe conduct. It's Mr. Josip Vidovic living in

    5 Santici, and the request was filed by the Defence

    6 Counsel Susak on the 11th of February.

    7 MR. BLAXILL: There is no objection, Your

    8 Honour.

    9 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. So we will issue

    10 this, and I apologise for this mistake or -- I don't

    11 know how to say.

    12 Shall we bring in the next witness, Mr. Goran

    13 Males?

    14 (The witness entered court)

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning, Mr. Goran

    16 Males. I would like to ask you to make the solemn

    17 declaration, please.

    18 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

    19 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

    20 truth.

    21 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you so much. You may

    22 be seated. I will call upon counsel Pinter.


    24 Examined by Ms. Pinter:

    25 MS. PINTER: Thank you, Your Honours.

  73. 1 Q. Good morning, Mr. Males.

    2 A. Good morning.

    3 Q. Would you please introduce yourself?

    4 A. My name is Goran Males. I was born on the

    5 24th of January, 1967 in Busovaca municipality in

    6 Podjele.

    7 Q. And what is your occupation?

    8 A. I'm a soldier, a member of the Special

    9 Units. I'm a professional soldier.

    10 Q. Since when have you been living in Vitez?

    11 A. I have been living in Vitez since 1967.

    12 Q. Before you settled in Vitez, where did you

    13 live?

    14 A. I lived at Rijeka in Vitez municipality.

    15 Q. With the usher's assistance could this aerial

    16 photograph be removed so that we can see better the

    17 bigger picture in the background on the board?

    18 Mr. Males, can you speak up a little bit?

    19 A. I'll do that.

    20 Q. Will you please take the pointer on your

    21 right, you can extend it if necessary, and could you

    22 please point to Rijeka, where you lived before you went

    23 to Vitez, then where Podjele is. You can take off the

    24 headphones. Thank you.

    25 A. Rijeka, it's this area. (Indicating)

  74. 1 Q. Find Vitez first, please?

    2 A. Just a moment. This is Vitez municipality,

    3 all of this. Rijeka is here. In fact, it extends as

    4 far as this point. Then comes Donja Rovna in

    5 continuation. This also is Rijeka, up to here.

    6 (Indicating)

    7 Q. Will you please show us where Podjele is?

    8 A. Podjele. (Indicating)

    9 Q. Thank you. You may take your seat.

    10 A. You're welcome.

    11 Q. Who were the majority population in Rijeka?

    12 A. The Croats were the majority population.

    13 Q. Were there some Muslim -- in Rijeka?

    14 A. Yes, there were some.

    15 Q. What were the relationships like between

    16 Muslims and Croats?

    17 A. Very good.

    18 Q. How far is Rijeka from Ahmici?

    19 A. It is about three and a half to four

    20 kilometres away.

    21 Q. Do you have any personal knowledge about the

    22 first conflicts in Ahmici?

    23 A. As far as my personal knowledge is concerned,

    24 I don't have any personal knowledge.

    25 Q. Very well. Do you have any knowledge as to

  75. 1 where the first conflict between the Muslims and the

    2 Croats broke out?

    3 A. In Busovaca municipality.

    4 Q. Can you tell the Court where you were on the

    5 19th of October, 1992?

    6 A. Yes, I can. I was in Podjele, Busovaca

    7 municipality, after seeing off the relatives of my

    8 mother.

    9 Q. Was that the reason why you recall that day

    10 so well?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. Where were your mother's relatives going?

    13 A. My mother's relatives were leaving to the

    14 territory under Serb army control.

    15 Q. Why?

    16 A. Simply they couldn't organise their lives to

    17 stay on in the vicinity. There was the village of

    18 Merdani and the village of Strane.

    19 Q. What ethnicity is your mother?

    20 A. My mother is of Serbian nationality.

    21 Q. So there were Serbs living in Podjele, or

    22 were they the minority?

    23 A. The majority population was Serbs. There

    24 were some Croats and one Muslim family.

    25 Q. So your mother's family, on the 19th of

  76. 1 October, was leaving Podjele?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. Are any members of your family living in

    4 Podjele today?

    5 A. No, no one is living there.

    6 Q. Very well. Will you please describe now your

    7 return journey from Podjele to Rijeka, but before that

    8 will you please tell us whether you had any property,

    9 or a house or some woods there?

    10 A. Yes, we did have some property. We had a

    11 house and some land, and that is why I spent a lot of

    12 time there.

    13 Q. So it means that formerly you were living in

    14 Vitez but you spent a lot of time in Rijeka?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 MS. PINTER: Your Honours, I'm being told

    17 that it is time for our break. We were anyway going on

    18 to another area now. Thank you.

    19 JUDGE CASSESE: Excellent. We'll take a

    20 break, 15 minutes.

    21 --- Recess taken at 12.15 p.m.

    22 --- Upon resuming at 12.30 p.m.

    23 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Pinter?

    24 MS. PINTER: Thank you, Your Honours.

    25 Q. Mr. Males, we stopped when you were at

  77. 1 Podjele to see off your mother's family, who had moved

    2 out.

    3 A. Yes. I was in Podjele to see off my mother's

    4 relatives.

    5 Q. Can you speak up a little?

    6 A. Yes, I was in Podjele; I was seeing off my

    7 mother's family.

    8 Q. After that, where did you go?

    9 A. I went home.

    10 Q. Which road did you take?

    11 A. The main road going from Kaonik to Vitez.

    12 Q. Did you go by car, did you use public

    13 transport, or on foot, by bike? How did you go?

    14 A. I went on foot.

    15 Q. Why?

    16 A. For one reason: To hitchhike, to stop a

    17 vehicle along the road.

    18 Q. You didn't have a car at the time?

    19 A. No. No.

    20 Q. The road you took, taking you to Rijeka, does

    21 it pass through Ahmici?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. When I finish my question, wait a moment and

    24 then answer it, please.

    25 A. Very well.

  78. 1 Q. I should now like to ask you to take the

    2 pointer and point on the map the road you took from

    3 Podjele to Rijeka.

    4 Please turn towards the microphone so we can

    5 hear you.

    6 A. (Indicating) this is Podjele, and I started

    7 from Podjele, following this road. I reached Kaonik;

    8 from Kaonik, I went along the main road towards Vitez.

    9 Q. Did you meet anyone along the way?

    10 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, we can't hear the

    11 witness.

    12 A. At Nadioci, I met some Croats, men of

    13 Croatian nationality, who warned me not to go toward

    14 Ahmici, but to take another path via Rasko Polje,

    15 Radak's bridge, and Rijeka. I didn't follow their

    16 advice, and I went on along the main road.

    17 MS. PINTER:

    18 Q. Before you went on, and when they were

    19 warning you -- you can sit down.

    20 Did they tell you, when they warned you not

    21 to continue along that road, what was happening in

    22 Ahmici?

    23 A. Yes. They said that something was happening

    24 to the effect that the road was blocked.

    25 Q. Why didn't you listen to their advice?

  79. 1 A. Because across Rasko Polje and Radak's

    2 bridge, it was not pleasant to take that road at the

    3 time. It was night.

    4 Q. Were you an active-duty soldier at the time?

    5 A. An active-duty soldier?

    6 Q. Did you have a uniform and weapon that

    7 evening?

    8 A. No. I was wearing civilian clothes.

    9 Q. When you went on from Nadioci towards Ahmici,

    10 what happened next?

    11 A. At the Sangaj restaurant, I was stopped again

    12 by Croats who told me that something was happening

    13 there.

    14 Q. Was it a barricade, or ... ?

    15 A. I don't know. Again, I didn't listen to

    16 them.

    17 Q. What do you mean when you say "up there"?

    18 A. I mean near the cemetery. In a hollow. The

    19 cemetery was on the left-hand side, and there was an

    20 uphill slope on the right-hand side.

    21 Q. Very well. And what happened next?

    22 A. Again, I didn't do as I was told, so I went

    23 on. And when I got to some 10 or 15 metres away from

    24 the cemetery, they said "Stop."

    25 Q. Who?

  80. 1 A. The Bosnia and Herzegovina army.

    2 Q. How could you tell it was the BH army?

    3 A. Because I had already been warned that they

    4 were preparing something there.

    5 Q. Did you see them?

    6 A. Yes. I just saw shadows. When I walked up

    7 to them, I saw that they were soldiers.

    8 Q. How could you tell they were soldiers, and

    9 that they belonged to the BH army?

    10 A. As I approached them, they immediately asked

    11 my ID particulars: My name, my date of birth, my

    12 surname.

    13 Q. And then?

    14 A. I told them my particulars, and they said

    15 "Wait a minute."

    16 Q. How many men gathered round you?

    17 A. Roughly 100.

    18 Q. Were they standing in the middle of the road,

    19 or on the side?

    20 A. Some were standing on the road; others were

    21 jumping across a fence, coming from the cemetery,

    22 actually from the cemetery itself. And from this

    23 uphill slope, they were coming down this little hill

    24 into the hollow where the road passed.

    25 Q. Does that mean that you were near the

  81. 1 cemetery?

    2 A. Yes. Right facing the cemetery.

    3 Q. Could you describe to the Court what these

    4 men who surrounded you looked like? Were they wearing

    5 civilian clothes, or uniforms? Were they armed? Was

    6 it a group of men, or were they organised? Could you

    7 describe that for us.

    8 A. It was an organised group of men. Most of

    9 them were wearing camouflage uniforms. They were

    10 armed. There were some civilians. Very few, but they

    11 were armed.

    12 Q. How could you tell that they were BH army

    13 members?

    14 A. It was my assessment that the Croats would

    15 not have held me there, because they asked for my

    16 particulars as to when I was born, where I was coming

    17 from, where I was going, who I was, what I was, who my

    18 parents were, my brothers, my sisters; they wanted to

    19 know all those particulars.

    20 Q. Can you remember today what they said to

    21 you --

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. -- what they wanted from you?

    24 A. They insulted me. They didn't ask for

    25 anything else, just my particulars. They asked whether

  82. 1 I had come across anyone else on my way.

    2 Q. Did they threaten you?

    3 A. Yes, they did.

    4 Q. How?

    5 A. I heard somebody from the group saying "let's

    6 kill him and throw him into the channel. Let's gouge

    7 his eyes out." And things like that, all kinds of

    8 things.

    9 Q. Did you feel that you were in danger?

    10 A. Yes, I did.

    11 Q. How did this whole incident end? Did anyone

    12 react, did you recognise anyone, did someone come up?

    13 What happened?

    14 A. A person came out of the group and said he

    15 was going to get the commander. I waited. They came

    16 back, some of them, but they just kept asking me more

    17 questions. They pointed a lamp at me, 10 centimetres

    18 away from my eyes. They wrote down some more details:

    19 My date of birth, where I was born, where I was coming

    20 from, where I was going. They left, apparently to

    21 fetch the commander again.

    22 Q. Did the commander come?

    23 A. The second time they came, nobody asked me

    24 anything. The third time they went to fetch the

    25 commander, and then he came, this commander of theirs,

  83. 1 who asked me my first and last names. When I told them

    2 my first and last names, he said, "Let him go. Let him

    3 pass." By his voice, I am of the opinion that it was

    4 Fikret Ahmic.

    5 Q. So you knew Fikret Ahmic?

    6 A. Yes, I did know him.

    7 Q. Since when?

    8 A. Since primary school. Because we went to the

    9 primary school at Donja Dubravica, at the railway

    10 station.

    11 Q. Did you know why the roadblock had been put

    12 up at the time?

    13 A. Could you please repeat the question?

    14 Q. Did you know at the time the reason for

    15 putting up the roadblock?

    16 A. No, I did not know at the time.

    17 Q. Did you personally see the roadblock?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. Where was it?

    20 A. The roadblock was in the direction of the

    21 chapel.

    22 Q. Did you see what it consisted of?

    23 A. Yes, it consisted of a village fence that we

    24 called Baskija.

    25 Q. That fence, was it an obstacle, or could it

  84. 1 have been used as an obstacle for vehicles?

    2 A. Yes, it could. It could be an obstacle for

    3 vehicles.

    4 Q. Did you learn subsequently why the roadblock

    5 had been put up?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. Why?

    8 A. The road was blocked so as to prevent the

    9 people of Busovaca from going to Jajce.

    10 Q. At the time were you an active duty soldier

    11 or were you a reservist?

    12 A. I was in the reserves.

    13 Q. When did you become an active duty soldier?

    14 A. At the beginning of the war.

    15 Q. In '90 what?

    16 A. In '93.

    17 Q. Do you know Dragan Papic?

    18 A. Yes, I do.

    19 Q. How do you know him?

    20 A. We would see each other in front of the

    21 Sumarija, the forestry company when my neighbour was

    22 purchasing fuel wood, and I would also see him in Vitez

    23 in cafes known as Fistas.

    24 Q. What kind of relationship did you have with

    25 him? Were you friends or acquaintances?

  85. 1 A. We were just acquaintances.

    2 Q. Can you remember today what Dragan Papic

    3 looked like in those days when you would come across

    4 him?

    5 A. Dragan had a beard.

    6 Q. What kind of a beard?

    7 A. It was quite big.

    8 Q. Can you look at him today? Was his beard

    9 like that?

    10 A. No, his beard was bigger than that and

    11 thicker. He wasn't shaved on the sides.

    12 Q. When you spoke to Dragan in the cafes, when

    13 you came across him, as you've said, did you spend

    14 enough time with him to be able to say that in your

    15 conversations Dragan manifested any kind of nationalist

    16 feelings?

    17 A. No. In our conversations this did not

    18 appear.

    19 Q. What did you discuss then?

    20 A. Mostly girls.

    21 Q. Did you discuss politics at all?

    22 A. No.

    23 Q. Was he interested in politics? Do you know?

    24 A. I wouldn't think he was.

    25 Q. Do you have any knowledge of what he liked to

  86. 1 do apart from his regular work, if you know anything

    2 about that?

    3 A. No, I don't know anything about it.

    4 MS. PINTER: That would be all, Your

    5 Honours. Thank you.

    6 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you very much Counsel

    7 Pinter. Counsel Pavkovic, any cross-examination by

    8 other Defence counsel?

    9 MR. PAVKOVIC: No, Mr. President, no other

    10 Defence counsel wishes to cross-examine the witness.

    11 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Terrier?

    12 Cross-examined by Mr. Terrier:

    13 MR. TERRIER: Thank you, Mr. President.

    14 Q. Witness, my name is Franck Terrier. I am one

    15 of the Prosecution attorneys, and I'm going to ask a

    16 few questions after the testimony that you have just

    17 given.

    18 First of all, you told us a few moments ago

    19 that you are today a professional soldier and that you

    20 belong to a special unit. Can you be more specific

    21 about that?

    22 A. Yes. I joined the professional army for one

    23 reason. It was the best paid army in the territory of

    24 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    25 Q. On what date did you join that army as a

  87. 1 professional?

    2 A. On the 21st of August, 1995.

    3 Q. What does a "special unit" mean?

    4 A. A "special unit" means that we have to be

    5 ready to carry out any tasks assigned to us in

    6 peacetime and in wartime.

    7 Q. Does that also mean that you had special

    8 training?

    9 A. No.

    10 Q. What is your rank?

    11 A. I have no rank.

    12 Q. So that means you're just a soldier, a

    13 private?

    14 A. Yes, yes.

    15 Q. Where was your unit stationed?

    16 A. Now it is stationed in --

    17 JUDGE CASSESE: Sorry. Counsel Pinter?

    18 MS. PINTER: Your Honours, these are

    19 questions regarding the current occupation of the

    20 witness, and I would rather that he not be questioned

    21 about his present occupation as that is not covered by

    22 the indictment. The witness has told us where he works

    23 and since when, but what he's now doing I don't think

    24 is important or relevant.

    25 MR. TERRIER: The witness told us that he was

  88. 1 a soldier belonging to a special unit. It goes without

    2 saying that -- that I can obtain from this witness that

    3 I wish to cross-examine and whose credibility concerns

    4 me, I wish to have some precision as to what those

    5 special units are and what are the current activities

    6 of a professional unit, but I will cover that very

    7 quickly and go back to the period of 1992 and 1993.

    8 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Mr. Terrier,

    9 because we have just learned from the witness that he

    10 joined that special unit on the 21st of August, 1995,

    11 so that Attorney Pinter is right. Nevertheless, we too

    12 would like to know what the tasks are of those special

    13 units. Just a few words about it. Then I would be

    14 grateful if you would go back to the period of 1992.

    15 MR. TERRIER:

    16 Q. Witness, could you then specify for us, in

    17 the case of a conflict or case of difficulty, the

    18 special tasks of the unit that you belong to today?

    19 A. You know yourself, the defence of the State.

    20 In peacetime we assist people when building roads.

    21 That is the engineers, but we as the infantry have no

    22 duties. We just secure military buildings and that's

    23 all.

    24 Q. I think that we will have to be satisfied

    25 with that answer, Mr. President. I'm going now back to

  89. 1 the period of '92-'93.

    2 A moment ago, witness, in answer to questions

    3 by the Defence lawyer, you said that you were first a

    4 reservist in the HVO and then an active duty soldier.

    5 Could you specify the dates when you became an HVO

    6 soldier?

    7 A. A soldier in the HVO? Could you please

    8 clear -- make that question clearer? When I became a

    9 soldier or when I was in the reserve?

    10 Q. I'm asking you both. When did you become a

    11 reservist and when you became an active duty soldier.

    12 A. I became an active duty soldier at the

    13 beginning of the conflict, and before that for a very

    14 short period.

    15 Q. Can I ask you, witness, to finish your answer

    16 which doesn't appear to be complete? Can you specify

    17 the dates if you know them?

    18 A. I am afraid I do not know the dates just

    19 now.

    20 Q. Could you tell us, in that case -- at least

    21 give us a more precise indication of the period during

    22 which you became an active duty soldier of the HVO?

    23 Surely you can remember the period.

    24 A. The summer of '92. I was a reservist.

    25 Q. Witness, perhaps you're not understanding

  90. 1 me. My question is: In what period did you become an

    2 active duty soldier of the HVO?

    3 A. I became an active duty soldier of the HVO on

    4 the 16th of March, 1993 when the conflict actually

    5 broke out in our area.

    6 Q. You said the 16th of March, 1993? Is that

    7 what you said?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. As from the 16th of March, 1993 you were an

    10 active duty soldier of the HVO. Where were you on the

    11 16th of April, 1993?

    12 A. On the 16th of April, 1993 I was in Vitez.

    13 Q. Which unit of the HVO did you belong to?

    14 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Pinter.

    15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone to the counsel,

    16 please.

    17 MS. PINTER: Your Honours, during the

    18 examination-in-chief the witness was asked a question

    19 about the year of 1992 and the 20th of October, 1992.

    20 In his testimony, we did not discuss his affiliation

    21 with any military in the year of 1993, nor was any

    22 mention made of the events that took place in 1993.

    23 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, but the Prosecutor has

    24 the right to ask questions concerning the relevant

    25 times, that is the year of 1993. Why not? You are

  91. 1 familiar with the Rules of Procedure and Evidence.

    2 There is a Rule, according to which the witness can be

    3 asked questions which go outside the strict framework

    4 of the examination-in-chief. That is the main -- the

    5 direct-examination.

    6 It seems to me that the question that is

    7 asked by Mr. Terrier is a relevant question because it

    8 goes to the relevant events. Therefore, we will allow

    9 the Prosecutor to continue with the questions relating

    10 to the period of March and April in 1993.

    11 MR. TERRIER: Thank you, Mr. President.

    12 Q. Witness, could you please tell us to which

    13 unit of the HVO you belonged on the 16th of April,

    14 1993?

    15 A. I belonged -- just a second -- to the Novi

    16 Travnik unit which was called Kralj Tomislav unit.

    17 Q. Is it not a brigade?

    18 A. Yes, it is.

    19 Q. Could you be more specific? You were a

    20 soldier at the time. Could you specify the unit to

    21 which you belonged in terms of battalion, company and

    22 so on?

    23 A. I was a member of a company which was under

    24 the jurisdiction of Vitez municipality. Vitez

    25 municipality had a company of soldiers.

  92. 1 Q. Who was the commander who issued orders to

    2 you?

    3 A. The commander of the company?

    4 Q. Yes, the commander of the company.

    5 A. The commander of my company, to tell you the

    6 truth, is still unknown to me. I still don't know who

    7 the commander was.

    8 Q. Could you tell us the name of any officer or

    9 non-commissioned officer under whose orders you were

    10 during that time?

    11 A. Yes. It was Mr. Karlo Grabovac who was my

    12 superior.

    13 Q. What were his duties?

    14 A. I wouldn't know that.

    15 Q. Do you remember what happened on the 16th of

    16 April, 1993? Could you briefly describe the events of

    17 that day, to the best of your recollection?

    18 A. It was the second conflict that broke out on

    19 the territory of the Vitez municipality. I was asleep

    20 at the time, and my mother woke me up and she wanted to

    21 know what was happening. She said, "Dear child, what

    22 is going on?" There was shooting, and I went out of

    23 the house and I realised that the situation was

    24 terrible, so I went to Rijeka, to the farm, to our

    25 property, to see what was happening with my property.

  93. 1 I didn't want anyone to destroy it.

    2 Q. Yes, please go on.

    3 A. So I got there, I got to the farm, and

    4 realised that everything was okay. However, there was

    5 shooting going on all over the place, and I went to the

    6 area called Cerveno Burce and I remained up

    7 there throughout the war.

    8 Q. When you say that you remained on that hill

    9 in the area of Cerveno Burce --

    10 A. It's B-r-d-c-e.

    11 Q. Thank you very much. You said that you

    12 stayed there throughout the conflict. Could you be

    13 more specific? How long did you stay there? Could you

    14 give us any dates?

    15 A. Well, I stayed there for one year,

    16 approximately. The duration of the war.

    17 Q. Witness, could you please be more specific.

    18 At that time, you were an active-duty soldier; why did

    19 you stay there for one year?

    20 A. Well, we were defending our parts; that is,

    21 the area of the village of Vranjska. We were defending

    22 our houses, the houses that were behind the lines, and

    23 at that time they were only 30 or 40 metres away from

    24 the front line. What were we supposed to do? To let

    25 them occupy the area.

  94. 1 Q. Yes, but you received certain orders to stay

    2 there.

    3 A. No. I didn't receive any orders. I simply

    4 went to the front line in order to defend my property,

    5 in order to save the lives of my family, of my

    6 parents.

    7 Q. Correct me if I'm wrong: You say that you

    8 were an active-duty soldier, that you belonged to a

    9 brigade, to a company, that you were a member of a

    10 military organisation and you were part of a certain

    11 military hierarchy, you had a commander, and on the

    12 16th of April, you stayed in the vicinity of your

    13 property in order to protect it, and that you remained

    14 there for a period of one year. Throughout that year,

    15 you no longer had any contact with your military

    16 command, and you sort of remained outside the military

    17 milieu? Am I correct?

    18 A. Throughout the war, we didn't pay much

    19 attention to the command. We didn't really know who

    20 the commander was. The idea was simply to protect our

    21 homes. There was no proper structure, proper

    22 organisation.

    23 Q. I would like to understand you, and I know

    24 that the HVO had certain problems in terms of structure

    25 and organisation at the time. However, I would like

  95. 1 you to confirm the fact that during that particular

    2 year, while you were an active-duty soldier, you

    3 remained without any orders. It was a period of a

    4 conflict, and you did not receive any orders; you were

    5 involved in some kind of personal matter.

    6 A. During the war, no one was under any command

    7 on that line. There were very few of us, and the idea

    8 was to remain there, in that particular area. The

    9 command was not properly structured. There was no

    10 proper military set-up at that time, and I'm referring

    11 to the HVO. So one can say that it was a

    12 self-organised defence of our own village.

    13 Q. Witness, I'm really trying hard to

    14 understand. Were you armed during that time, during

    15 that year while you were protecting your village?

    16 A. You mean the front line, when you say

    17 "property"?

    18 Q. Yes, I'm referring to the front line.

    19 A. Yes. We had very little weaponry, and it

    20 would change hands on the front line.

    21 MR. TERRIER: Can I have the assistance of

    22 the usher, please.

    23 Q. Witness, I would like to show you the

    24 Document 353, page 35.

    25 Page 55. It's page 55, and not 35.

  96. 1 Witness, could you please have a look at the

    2 line 21 from the top, on page 1.

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. Did you find it? Could you please follow

    5 that line, and tell me whether the signature that

    6 figures at the end of the line is your signature.

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. Could you please tell me whether the period

    9 that is indicated here on the document is the period

    10 during which you were a member of the HVO in 1992, and

    11 then up to 1995. Is that the correct period?

    12 A. No. The information is not correct, because

    13 this was done for the purpose of distribution of


    15 Q. Could you please be more specific, and tell

    16 us something more about this distribution of shares.

    17 Are you speaking about some kind of compensation for

    18 the services provided to the HVO in the form of shares?

    19 A. Yes. Something like that, yes.

    20 Q. Is that the reason -- and please correct me

    21 if I'm wrong -- that we count the number -- that you

    22 count the number of months of service within the HVO?

    23 A. Yes, more or less. But the date is not

    24 correct.

    25 Q. So why did you sign this document?

  97. 1 A. This document has been signed, but you can

    2 see yourself that something was typed over this

    3 document.

    4 Q. I beg your pardon? Could you be more

    5 specific, please?

    6 A. Yes, I could be more specific. This was done

    7 on two separate occasions, and in relation to the same

    8 number. There is a text here that was typed over.

    9 Q. Thank you very much. I didn't at first

    10 understand what you meant.

    11 Could you tell us what the letter "P" stands

    12 for? It is on the right-hand side of the page, in the

    13 fourth column.

    14 A. Column number 4, on the right side?

    15 Q. Actually it's in the middle of the page. On

    16 the line that refers to you, there is a column, and

    17 there is a letter "P "in it, at the same level.

    18 A. Yes, yes. I found it.

    19 I don't know. I couldn't tell you.

    20 Q. Witness, were you compensated for the

    21 services provided to the HVO?

    22 A. After the war, we were given shares, but

    23 these shares are not active yet. And I hope something

    24 will come out of that.

    25 Q. This type of compensation, did it involve --

  98. 1 was it applied only to active-duty soldiers, or to

    2 reservists as well?

    3 A. It was distributed to everyone who was at the

    4 time in the war, and it concerned both Muslims and

    5 Croats.

    6 Q. Witness, my question was perhaps more

    7 specific: The persons who were reservists at the time,

    8 did they have the right, however, to a certain

    9 compensation, namely the compensation -- the kind of

    10 compensation that you have just described?

    11 A. All members who during the war were defending

    12 their area are entitled to these shares, to be

    13 compensated in the form of shares.

    14 Q. Yes, but from what you have just told us, is

    15 it not true that there isn't much difference between a

    16 reservist and an active-duty soldier?

    17 A. No. There isn't much difference when it

    18 comes to shares, because we were simply defending our

    19 parts. There were elderly people among us, women who

    20 prepared food at the front line, people who brought

    21 food. All these individuals are entitled to this type

    22 of compensation.

    23 Q. Witness, does this not mean that all members

    24 of the Croatian Community, all those who are of

    25 military age and can perform military service, are

  99. 1 actually members of the HVO; and is it not true that

    2 the notion of reservist, the way we understand it in

    3 the context of other armies in Europe, was actually

    4 non-existent? Is it not true that there were no

    5 reservists at the time?

    6 A. No, it is not true. We didn't have

    7 reservists because there were very few of us.

    8 Q. Bearing in mind these conditions, in October

    9 1992, on the road between Kaonik and Ahmici, you

    10 learned that a roadblock had been set up in Ahmici, and

    11 you decided not to take the byroad to Vitez; you

    12 decided to go along that road. But you at that time

    13 had military duties, you had military duties within the

    14 HVO?

    15 A. I took the main road for one reason: Several

    16 days before that, there was very heavy rainfall. It's

    17 a dirt road; it's not a tarmac road. And during the

    18 first conflict, I was a reservist.

    19 Q. I would really like to understand correctly

    20 what you're saying. You were about to go in the

    21 direction of the roadblock, and you decided to do that

    22 because there was no other way for you to get to Vitez?

    23 A. No, I could take the road that goes along

    24 Rasko Polje and the Radak bridge; but because of very

    25 heavy rainfall several days prior to that, because of

  100. 1 the muddy roads, I decided to take the Ahmici road. I

    2 was a civilian. At that moment, I wasn't carrying any

    3 weapons, and I thought that there was not any special

    4 reason why that roadblock had been set up.

    5 Q. But in spite of that, on two occasions, you

    6 were told not to continue in that direction but to take

    7 up some other road; this is what you told us.

    8 A. Yes, that's true. But I didn't want to get

    9 dirty, and I was hoping that a vehicle would pass by

    10 and that someone would give me a lift to Vitez.

    11 Q. Who was the HVO soldier whom you encountered

    12 and told who you not to continue in that direction?

    13 Where was he?

    14 A. He was not an HVO soldier. These people were

    15 villagers of Croatian nationality, and this happened in

    16 the area of the village of Nadioci and also near the

    17 cafe called Sangaj.

    18 Q. If we can have the assistance of the usher,

    19 please. Can the witness be shown the area photograph

    20 of Ahmici so he can show us the exact location of the

    21 Sangaj cafe?

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: In the meantime, Mr. Terrier,

    23 do you have many questions left? You don't think you

    24 will finish the cross-examination?

    25 MR. TERRIER: I don't have many questions

  101. 1 left, maybe 10 or 15 minutes, but I presume we have

    2 other obligations.

    3 Q. Witness, on this aerial photograph can we see

    4 the location of the Sangaj cafe?

    5 A. The Sangaj restaurant is just below the

    6 cemetery. You can see the parking-lot near the

    7 cemetery. Can I use the pointer, please?

    8 Q. Please do, yes.

    9 A. This is the parking area of the Sangaj

    10 restaurant. It's right here. (Indicating)

    11 Q. It's not the same facility as the one

    12 commonly referred to as "Bungalow"?

    13 A. Could you please repeat your question?

    14 Q. Yes, of course. This facility that you have

    15 just shown on the map, is it the same facility or a

    16 different facility as the one called "Bungalow"?

    17 A. It's not the same place. The Sangaj cafe is

    18 here and the Bungalow is further down the road. I can

    19 show you the location of the Bungalow as well.

    20 Q. Yes, please do.

    21 A. (Indicating)

    22 Q. Thank you, witness.

    23 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Mr. Terrier. We

    24 will adjourn and we will come back tomorrow at 9.00

    25 sharp.

  102. 1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

    2 at 1.33 p.m., to be reconvened on

    3 Thursday, the 25th day of February,

    4 1999, at 9.00 a.m.