1 Monday, 1st March, 1999
2 (Open session)
3 (The accused entered court)
4 (The witness entered court)
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
7 Case number IT-95-16-T, the Prosecutor versus Zoran
8 Kupreskic, Mirjan Kupreskic, Vlatko Kupreskic, Drago
9 Josipovic, Dragan Papic, and Vladimir Santic.
10 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Good morning.
11 I see that the next witness is already in,
12 Mrs. Vidovic.
13 Good morning, Mrs. Vidovic. Could you please
14 make the solemn declaration.
15 WITNESS: ANKICA VIDOVIC
16 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
17 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
19 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be
21 Counsel Puliselic?
22 MR. PULISELIC: Good morning, Your Honours.
23 We have a change for today, and Mrs. Pinter will be
24 examining this witness.
25 Examined by Mrs. Pinter:
1 Q. Good morning, Mrs. Vidovic?
2 A. Good morning.
3 Q. Would you tell us some general facts about
5 A. My name is Ankica Vidovic. I was born on the
6 1st of December, 1957, in Busovaca. I live in Vitez
7 and I am a hairdresser by profession.
8 Q. How long have you been living in Vitez?
9 A. I've lived in Vitez since the 16th of April,
10 1993, the first day when the Muslims attacked the
12 Q. And where did you reside prior to that?
13 A. Prior to that, I resided in Buhine Kuce.
14 Q. How far are Buhine Kuce from Ahmici?
15 A. Buhine Kuce are about two -- one and a half
16 to two kilometres away from Ahmici.
17 Q. And how far --
18 A. And they are three kilometres from Vitez.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 Do you know Dragan Papic?
21 A. I know Dragan Papic.
22 Q. Can you see him in the courtroom?
23 A. Yes, I can.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 Did you have any close contacts with him?
1 Did you socialise with him? How long have you known
2 him? Tell the Court, please.
3 A. I have known Dragan since I married in Vitez
4 in 1974. And when I came to live there, he was a boy.
5 Dragan was born in 1967 and he was 7 years old at the
6 time I came to Vitez. He was riding a bicycle and he
7 would frequently go to Zume and the football field
8 there, where the children used to gather, so that I got
9 to know Dragan through my husband.
10 Q. That's what I wanted to ask you. Why did you
11 go to Zume?
12 A. I went to Zume because my husband was a
13 football fan, and while he was a young man he played a
14 lot of football and was later on a coach for Santici,
15 the football team.
16 Q. Later on you began socialising with Dragan
18 A. Yes, that is true. When Dragan married in
19 1991 and he met my husband, we knew that he had got
20 married. We asked who he had married, and he told us
21 that he had married Rujica Lastro, her surname was
22 Lastro. My maiden name was Lastro as well, so we
23 thought that it might be a distant relation of mine,
24 and that -- my husband (sic) and I called each other
25 baja (phoen).
1 Q. Now, what does that mean?
2 A. Well, it would mean as if -- a sort of term
3 for sisters, as if we were sisters. But we weren't
4 really sisters; it was just that we had this surname in
6 Q. Do you know whether Dragan was in conflict
7 with anybody?
8 A. No, I never heard that from anybody.
9 Q. Do you know whether he was aggressive or
10 anything of that kind?
11 A. No, he was not aggressive at all. He was
12 very calm. He is fairly good at communicating with
13 people. In fact, he liked communicating with
14 everybody, and he liked having a lot of friends around
15 him, and he had a lot of friends and we are his
17 Q. Did you socialise intensively, so that you
18 could say -- give us these character traits for
19 certain? Were you friends for a long time?
20 A. Yes. From 1991 onwards, we saw each other
21 more frequently. Particularly in the summertime, at
22 Rasko Polje, we would have barbecues, and they would
23 visit us, we would visit them.
24 Q. Did Dragan read a lot?
25 A. I doubt it very much. I didn't often see him
1 with a book in his hands.
2 Q. What did Dragan like doing outside his
3 regular job, regular line of business?
4 A. Dragan was a forester by profession, but I
5 used to meet him most often with his hands dirty and
6 oily, wearing a work overall, because he worked as a
7 car mechanic. And that was his hobby, in fact.
8 Q. Was Dragan particularly interested in
10 A. No, he wasn't. I don't think he was, no. We
11 never discussed things of that kind.
12 Q. Was Dragan in some way politically involved?
13 Was he a member of any party? Do you know anything
14 about that?
15 A. I don't know that he was a member of any
16 party, no.
17 Q. And if he was, would you have known?
18 A. Yes, I would. Quite certainly.
19 Q. During these days when you saw him and were
20 friends, did he ever display his political viewpoints
21 or take nationalist standpoints, or were these
22 discussions never a topic that you discussed, or did
23 you ever have any other views?
24 A. Dragan never was interested in politics, nor
25 was my husband, nor was I, so we didn't discuss things
1 like that.
2 Q. Very well. Where would you meet Dragan from
3 time to time? You said that you met him from time to
4 time; where would that be?
5 A. Well, before the war and after the war, I
6 would meet him frequently at Fadil Cajic's, who was an
7 auto mechanic and had his own shop by the railway
9 Q. Did you see him after the war as well?
10 A. Yes, Dragan would go there after the war as
11 well because I took my car there to have my oil changed
12 and I came across Dragan.
13 Q. The auto mechanic, was he a Muslim?
14 A. Yes, Fadil Cajic was a Muslim living in Vitez
15 by the railway station. He lived there throughout the
16 war and he's still living there today and working
18 Q. Can you tell us who Dragan associated with
19 most when he wasn't, of course, with his wife and so
20 on, if you know anything about that?
21 A. Dragan worked in the Sumarija, the forestry
22 concern of Vitez, as a forester, and he was friends
23 with Strmonja Nermin who went to the forestry school
24 together with him and I would often see them walking by
25 and they would always say hello when they passed me by.
1 Q. Do you know whether Dragan went to the mosque
2 at all?
3 A. Well, he quite certainly did go to the mosque
4 as a child because the mosque was situated across the
5 road from his house. I can't confirm this actually but
6 I do know that he would go to funerals just like me if
7 a Muslim person were to die and he would attend the
8 funeral which meant that he would go to the mosque as
10 Q. After the war, did you have further contacts
11 with Dragan?
12 A. After the war, we did associate, Dragan and
13 Ruzica visited me after the war, Ruzica in the course
14 of the war spent the war with her parents, she was at
15 her parents' place.
16 Q. Did you discuss things after the war, can you
17 tell us what Dragan's relationship after the war was
18 toward the Muslims?
19 A. His relationship towards the Muslims after
20 the war did not change because Dragan continued to see
21 Muslims, associate with them, and Muslims would come to
22 his house, to his yard, because I would have occasion
23 to pass by his house, because our Croatian cemetery is
24 located three houses from -- Dragan's house is the
25 third house from the cemetery, so when I was passing by
1 I would see Muslim's cars parked there in front of his
2 house and in his yard which meant that Muslims came to
3 Dragan's place.
4 Q. Except for these cars parked in front of his
5 house, can you tell us about Dragan's attitude toward
6 the Muslims and towards the war as well?
7 A. Dragan always felt sorry for everybody and
8 for the Muslims too. He had a lot of Muslim friends
9 who had lost their lives during the war and so he would
10 often mention the Muslim names and say how sorry he
11 was, particularly mentioning Nermin, who had been
12 killed and came there as a refugee.
13 Q. Did you talk about relations between Croats
14 and Muslims after the war?
15 A. No, I was no longer interested in that at all
16 because I lost a great deal in the war.
17 Q. Did you change your attitude towards the
18 Muslims? Have you changed it after the war?
19 A. Yes, I have changed my attitude, and Dragan
20 would always give words of encouragement and say,
21 "Well, never mind," what happened is not a good thing
22 but we still have to continue to live together and
23 cooperate with people, and I just couldn't do that.
24 Q. You lost somebody during the war, did you
1 A. Yes, I lost a great deal during the war.
2 Q. Could you tell us whom you lost or don't you
3 want to talk about it?
4 A. Yes, I can tell you.
5 Q. I lost my husband, my son, my brother-in-law,
6 his wife and their two children. This happened on the
7 9th of January when the Muslims stormed Buhine Kuce,
8 and they all lost their lives in one single day.
9 Q. Did you discuss this matter with Dragan?
10 A. Yes, but I didn't want to discuss the matter
11 at any length, and Dragan would always advise me and
12 tell me that I should try and put it behind me, forgive
13 and to continue living, that life goes on, and he would
14 console me and say that it wasn't individual people who
15 were to blame, just like ...
16 Q. Individual people or the nation as a nation?
17 A. No, the nation as a nation was not to blame,
18 that the ethnicity wasn't to blame, and that we were
19 not to blame just like the Muslims were not to blame.
20 MS. PINTER: That will be all. Thank you,
21 Your Honours.
22 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Counsel Pavkovic,
23 any cross-examination?
24 MR. PAVKOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours.
25 Defence Jadranka Slokovic-Glumac has a few questions to
2 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
3 Ms. Slokovic-Glumac?
4 Cross-examined by Ms. Slokovic-Glumac:
5 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Good morning, Your
6 Honours. Thank you.
7 Q. Mrs. Vidovic, good morning to you?
8 A. Good morning, Madam.
9 Q. Tell us where you were working in 1994?
10 A. In 1994 I was working in Vitez at the Kralja
11 Petra Kresimira Street at the Vucjak building as it was
12 referred to.
13 Q. What did you do there?
14 A. As my hairdressing salon was destroyed by the
15 railway station, I rented a space and premises from the
16 municipality and worked as a hairdresser.
17 Q. From what month were you employed as a
18 hairdresser there?
19 A. I began putting the premises in order from
20 July, and I began intensively working since August when
21 I returned from my holiday.
22 Q. Do you know Mirjan Kupreskic?
23 A. Yes, I know him.
24 Q. Did he work next to your -- near your salon
25 in 1994?
1 A. Yes. We were practically facing -- our
2 windows were practically facing each other. We worked
3 together for some two years, and we would be together
4 every day. We would have coffee, and fruit juices and
5 things like that together.
6 Q. What shop did he work at?
7 A. He worked at the Veleprodaja in Sutra.
8 Q. You said that you had worked in his vicinity
9 for two years?
10 A. More than two years.
11 Q. That means 1994 and you say 1995 and 1996?
12 A. Then I returned to my own premises.
13 Q. Did you associate with him at that time? Did
14 you communicate with him every day?
15 A. Yes. We were together every day. We would
16 even have coffee every day.
17 Q. Do you know at that time after the war
18 whether he went abroad at any time?
19 A. He went abroad with the folklore society. He
20 went to Switzerland in 1995, the autumn of 1995, in
22 Q. At that time was he ever wearing a military
24 A. No. He was always very neat and tidy and
25 wore a suit.
1 Q. And that was his regular place of employment,
2 of work?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. When asked by my colleague, you said that you
5 had some problems with your relationship to the Muslims
6 because your family really did suffer a great deal and
7 you lost a lot of your nearest and dearest.
8 Can you tell us what Mirjan Kupreskic's
9 relationship at that time was towards the Muslims?
10 A. Mirjan's relationship towards the Muslims was
11 very good, because they came, Muslims, that is, came to
12 the shop every day and he would talk to them. He
13 worked as a worker there, an employee. He was a
14 cashier and would take in what people paid to them. He
15 helped them.
16 We didn't always agree. In fact, I didn't
17 always agree with him, because he would try and console
18 me and tell me that I shouldn't be like that towards
19 the Muslims. I would even park my car and wouldn't
20 move my car when the Muslims would come, and he would
21 say, "Why don't you move your car? It's not in order.
22 Let people come. It's normal and we have to live
23 together with them."
24 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Vidovic.
25 A. Thank you.
1 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Counsel
2 Slokovic-Glumac. Mr. Smith?
3 Cross-examined by Mr. Smith:
4 MR. SMITH: Good morning, Your Honours.
5 Q. Morning, Ms. Vidovic.
6 A. Good morning.
7 Q. Because of the events that occurred in the
8 war, you've stated in your evidence that your attitude
9 towards the Muslims has changed.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And what is your attitude towards the Muslims
12 generally now?
13 A. Well, let me put it this way: Generally
14 speaking, I have changed too. My attitude at the
15 beginning was a very difficult one, because I had lived
16 through a great tragedy, I was not, quite simply, able
17 to imagine that something like that could happen at
18 all. But as the days are passing one by one, I see
19 that the people, the Muslims just like we Croats, are
20 not to blame for what happened, but, quite simply --
21 it's not that I hate anybody. I don't hate anybody. I
22 won't wish for vengeance, anything like that, revenge,
23 but I would just like the people who are responsible
24 for the crimes be brought to justice, but we as a
25 people, as a nation -- we as people really aren't to
2 Q. And in 1992, do you remember the conflict in
3 Ahmici in October?
4 A. No, I don't.
5 Q. You stated in your evidence that you knew
6 Dragan Papic wouldn't be a member of a political
7 party. Are you aware of Dragan Papic's association
8 with the village guard in Santici and Ahmici, and his
9 association with the HVO in 1992, before the main
11 A. Well, let me tell you, as far as those
12 parties are concerned, I don't know. If he was, he was
13 a member of the HDZ like I was, and old ladies as
14 Croats were members of the HDZ as Croatian ethnicity.
15 Perhaps that. I don't know about anything else.
16 Q. So you're not aware of his involvement in the
17 village guard in Ahmici?
18 A. No, because Ahmici was two kilometres away
19 from my house, one and a half to two kilometres away,
20 so I didn't know about that.
21 Q. Are you aware that -- or did you see Dragan
22 Papic wearing a camouflage uniform and a black uniform
23 on different occasions in 1992?
24 A. Well, I can tell you that Dragan usually wore
25 his work overalls because he worked as a car mechanic,
1 so the sort of blue type of uniform. Perhaps he had a
2 sort of black overall as well, but he was always dirty
3 and oily because of the car repair work that he was
4 doing. He would repair cars, and so perhaps ....
5 Q. But you never saw him in a camouflage
7 A. No, I didn't.
8 Q. How often did you meet Dragan Papic in 1992?
9 How frequently was it?
10 A. Well, I couldn't tell you exactly, but less
11 and less because I and my children went to Split in
12 1992. I was there for two months and then I returned,
13 and then we saw less of each other.
14 Q. If I can ask you this question: Between
15 October 1992 and April 1993, did you see Dragan Papic?
16 A. I saw him but rarely. I would see him
18 Q. Did you notice a change between Croats and
19 Muslims in your village between October 1992 and April
20 1993, less co-operation?
21 A. Well, I didn't really notice that because I
22 myself as a Croat had a pupil that was a Muslim, until
23 the last day, that is to say the 15th of April when I
24 stopped working. I wasn't able to go to work in the
25 morning. But Adnana Kablar, she was a Muslim and she
1 was with me, and she was learning the trade and
2 everything was more or less normal. Now, what people
3 thought in their own selves I don't know.
4 Q. Did you work in Vitez in October 1992?
5 A. No. In October 1992 I was working at the
6 railway station and I had my own private hairdressing
7 salon there.
8 Q. In terms of relationships between Muslims and
9 Croats in Ahmici, between October 1992 and April 1993,
10 is it fair to say that you can't really comment on what
11 those relationships were like because you didn't live
13 A. Yes. I can say that I don't know because I
14 wasn't there, because Ahmici is one and a half to two
15 kilometres away from my house, so I don't know people
16 from Ahmici, the Muslims, really well, even Croats.
17 Q. On the 16th of April, '93, you were living in
18 your house in Buhine Kuce; is that correct?
19 A. Yes. Yes, I was in my own house.
20 Q. How did you get from your house to Vitez on
21 that morning, on that day?
22 A. On that morning I was with my children alone
23 at home and I heard shooting. As my house -- first of
24 all, there's my father-in-law's house, and my
25 brother-in-law's house and mine was some 50 to 100
1 metres away, and my sister-in-law called me on the
2 phone and told me to come down to hers because there
3 was sounds of shooting. My son and my daughter and
4 myself we were sleeping. Then we got ready and went
5 down to their place, and there was shooting, I don't
6 know from what direction, because my husband had left
7 for Kuber on Tuesday, that is to say, three days
8 previously, prior to the shooting. He was sort of an
9 HVO reserve, home guards unit at Kuber, and he would
10 take seven-day-shifts on Kuber. So he wasn't at home,
11 so that I didn't know what was going on, because I
12 worked every day and it was just that particular
13 morning that I wasn't able to go to work.
14 Then I went with my children to my in-law's,
15 and my brother-in-law and his family and their two
16 children were there too, and we didn't know where to go
17 and what was going on and where things were happening.
18 And first of all, we went to the Impregnacija
19 facility and returned, but I was no longer able to go
20 back to my house.
21 Q. And why were you unable to go back to your
23 A. I was not able to go back to my house because
24 there was shooting from all sides and from my house,
25 the second house is Ferid Dzidic's house, a Muslim
1 house, and there was shooting there nonstop, and many
2 people and young girls were killed by bullets from that
3 house, and so I could not return. So I had to seek
4 shelter elsewhere with my children. I had a relation
5 in Vitez, and I spent one month with her.
6 Q. And you said that Dragan Papic worked with
7 Nermin Strmonja, and he used to --
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. -- work together; is that correct?
10 A. They would go back from work together. In
11 the afternoon I would see them going back from work. I
12 saw them together in the afternoons. Yes, Dragan went
13 to secondary school with Nermin. Nermin is from Pirici
14 and Dragan from Ahmici, and they went to secondary
15 school together, and then they worked together
17 Q. Are you aware of a person called Nenad
19 A. I know Nenad Santic. He was killed.
20 Q. And he was in charge of the village guard in
21 Ahmici and Santici; is that correct?
22 A. I couldn't tell you that.
23 MR. SMITH: I have no further questions, Your
25 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Counsel Pinter?
1 MS. PINTER: Thank you, Your Honours. No
2 further questions. Once again with the microphone on;
3 I have no further questions. Thank you.
4 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. We don't have any
5 questions either.
6 Mrs. Vidovic, thank you very much for giving
7 evidence in court. You may now be released. Thank
9 (The witness withdrew)
10 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Puliselic, shall we
11 follow the order indicated in your document you filed
12 last week as far as witnesses are concerned, so shall
13 we now hear witness number 5, then 6 and 7, that
15 MR. PULISELIC: Yes. Zdenko Rajic.
16 JUDGE CASSESE: And none of them is asking
17 for protective measures, I gather?
18 MR. PULISELIC: No. As far as I know, the
19 witnesses whom I have called have not asked for any
20 protection, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
22 (The witness entered court)
23 WITNESS: ZDENKO RAJIC
24 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning Mr. Rajic.
25 Could you please make the solemn declaration?
1 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
2 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
4 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be
6 Counsel Puliselic?
7 Examined by Mr. Puliselic:
8 Q. Mr. Rajic, good morning.
9 A. Good morning.
10 Q. Could you please introduce yourself to the
11 Trial Chamber by stating your full name, date of birth,
12 place of birth and place of residence?
13 A. Yes. I am Zdenko Rajic. I was born on 7th
14 April, 1969 in Rijeka in Vitez municipality, and I
15 continue to reside there.
16 Q. Could you tell the Trial Chamber, what is
17 your current occupation?
18 A. Yes. I am a member of the Ministry of the
19 Interior; that is, I'm a civilian policeman in Vitez.
20 Q. Could you say where did you live in 1992 and
22 A. Yes, I lived in Rijeka, in Vitez
24 Q. With the assistance of the usher, please,
25 could we temporarily remove the smaller aerial
2 Mr. Rajic, to your right there is an aerial
3 photograph of the Lasva Valley. Could you point in
4 this photograph where the village of Rijeka is located,
5 the place where you live?
6 A. Yes. It is right here. This is the village
7 of Rijeka where I live.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 If you took the road, how far would Rijeka be
10 from Vitez?
11 A. About three kilometres.
12 Q. And if you took the road to Ahmici, how far
13 would that be? What is the distance?
14 A. Also between three and three and a half
16 Q. In your view, what is the distance between
17 Rijeka and Ahmici as the crow flies?
18 A. About -- between 1.500 and 1.600 metres.
19 Q. Do any Muslims live in Rijeka?
20 A. Yes, they do.
21 Q. Could you tell what is the ethnic composition
22 in Rijeka in terms of per cent? If you know.
23 A. There are about 70 per cent of Croats and
24 about 30 per cent of Muslims.
25 Q. Can you say what the relations are in Rijeka
1 between Croats and Muslims? If you could say what they
2 were like before the war and what they are like now.
3 A. Before the war, the relations were ideal. Of
4 course, during the war, some tensions arose. And after
5 the war, again, the good neighbourly relations were
7 Q. So we can conclude that even after the war,
8 there was no great intolerance and conflicts; is that
9 what we can conclude?
10 A. Yes, that is correct, there were none.
11 Q. Can you say, did Muslims at any time leave
12 Rijeka during the conflict between Croats and Muslims
13 in other areas?
14 A. No, they did not.
15 Q. Did Muslims from Rijeka take part in fighting
16 against the Serbs? That is, at the beginning of the
18 A. No, they did not.
19 Q. What about Croats? Did they take part in the
20 fighting against Serbs? And I'm referring to the
21 Croats from Rijeka.
22 A. Yes, they did.
23 Q. Can you tell, in what areas did they take
25 A. Yes. We covered the wider area of Vlasic,
1 which is in the Travnik municipality, as well as Jajce
2 and Bugojno.
3 Q. Did you personally take part in fighting
4 against the Serbs?
5 A. Yes, I did.
6 Q. When was this, approximately? During what
8 A. Approximately it was in late June 1992.
9 Q. And where was this when you personally took
10 part in it?
11 A. This was the wider area of Vlasic.
12 Q. Did you take part in it as a volunteer, or
13 were you mobilised?
14 A. I went as a volunteer.
15 Q. Were you therefore part of the regular HVO
16 troops, or were you part of the HVO reserves?
17 A. I was part of the regular HVO troops.
18 Q. Could you tell us whether there were village
19 guards in Rijeka?
20 A. Yes, they did.
21 Q. Could you also specify the time period: When
22 were they established?
23 A. This was sometime in June of 1992.
24 Q. Did Muslims also take part in the village
25 guards in Rijeka?
1 A. Yes, some of them did.
2 Q. So for the most part, Croats took part in it,
3 and some Muslims; is that what we can conclude?
4 A. Yes, that is correct.
5 Q. Can you tell, what was the purpose, what was
6 the objective of these village guards?
7 A. The objective of the village guards was
8 expressly to secure the facilities which were of vital
10 Q. Could you say whether -- could you say what
11 were such facilities in the area of Rijeka?
12 A. Those were the bridges -- that is, the
13 communications across the Lasva Valley -- as well as
14 the reservoirs of drinking water.
15 Q. Did you personally take part in these village
17 A. I did, but only once.
18 Q. I'm going to ask you several questions
19 relating to the conflict between the Croats and Muslims
20 in Ahmici on the 20th of October, 1992. Do you recall
21 where you were on 19 October, 1992; that is, on the eve
22 of this conflict in Ahmici?
23 A. Yes, I recall I was in Rijeka, in front of
24 Srecko Petrovic's house. His nickname is Tajo. And on
25 that day, I was on duty in the regular troops.
1 Q. Were you on duty on that day, or were you on
2 duty that night, between the 19th and the 20th?
3 A. Yes, I was on duty on that night, between
4 7.00 p.m. until 7.00 a.m.
5 Q. So you were on duty with the regular HVO
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You said that you carried out your duty that
9 night in a house; whose house was it?
10 A. Yes, this was in the house which was owned by
11 Srecko Petrovic.
12 Q. Did you see Goran Males that evening, or that
14 A. Yes, I did see him.
15 Q. Did Goran Males at that time live in Rijeka?
16 A. Yes, he did.
17 Q. Was Goran Males your friend?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Why did he come to you? What did he tell
21 A. He told me to relate what happened to him
22 that night near Topole -- near the Topole cemetery,
23 which was in the Ahmici area.
24 Q. Did he confide to you as a friend, or because
25 you were a duty officer?
1 A. He confided to me as a friend, because we had
2 been very close from the time we were children.
3 Q. So what did he tell you? What had happened
4 to him? If you can just very briefly relate that.
5 A. He told me that he was in the Busovaca area,
6 in the village of Podjele, and on the way back home he
7 was stopped by the BH army members in the village of
8 Topole, near the Catholic cemetery, and that he was
9 subjected to acts of provocation and mistreatment by
10 the BH army members.
11 Q. Did he tell you that somebody had proposed to
12 have him executed?
13 A. Yes, he heard several voices whom he did not
14 recognise, and they were saying that they should get
15 rid of him, that they should kill him, execute him.
16 Q. Did he perhaps tell you, how did he get out
17 of that situation?
18 A. Yes, he also said that he heard a voice from
19 the group, and he also did not recognise that voice,
20 and this voice said that this man should be released,
21 meaning Goran Males.
22 Q. The men who had surrounded him, did they wear
23 uniforms? Were they members of the army of Bosnia and
25 A. He told me that they were wearing uniforms
1 and that they were members of the BH army.
2 Q. That night, when Males came to you, was he
3 wearing civilian clothes?
4 A. I believe that he did, yes.
5 Q. Was Goran Males a member of the HVO himself
6 at that time?
7 A. Yes, he was.
8 Q. Concerning this incident that was related to
9 you by Goran Males, did you inform anybody because you
10 were the officer on duty?
11 A. Yes, I did inform my commander, Karlo
13 Q. Later on during that night, while you were on
14 duty, did anything else happen? Did somebody call you
15 or look for you, phone you, or try to reach you by some
16 other means?
17 A. Yes, I received a call.
18 Q. Who called you?
19 A. It was the commander, Karlo Grabovac.
20 Q. What time, approximately, was it when this
22 A. This was sometime in the morning, around
24 Q. Could you now briefly state what your
25 commander, Karlo Grabovac, told you?
1 A. He told me that he had been informed that,
2 from the direction of Busovaca and Kiseljak, a group of
3 HVO soldiers were coming which were moving in the
4 direction of Jajce, and because of the barricade which
5 had been erected on Highway 5 in the village of Topole,
6 that is near the Catholic cemetery, that I should
7 provide security for a group of soldiers who were
8 coming through in case it was necessary.
9 Q. What time was it when you started from Rijeka
10 on that morning? Approximately what time it was?
11 A. It was between 5.00 and 5.10; around there.
12 Q. How many were you in this group or in this
13 unit, if you know how many men?
14 A. We were twelve.
15 Q. Who was the commander of this unit?
16 A. I was the commanding officer, personally.
17 Q. Could you say which road did you take in the
18 direction of Ahmici?
19 A. Yes. We started out from Rijeka towards the
20 railroad station by taking the highway to Zume, that is
21 to Santici.
22 Q. And then?
23 A. Then we took a local road to Donja Rovna,
24 which is to the right.
25 Q. Did you go in a vehicle?
1 A. No. We walked down the local road.
2 Q. So when you left the highway, the main road,
3 you were on foot when going to Santici by using this
4 local road?
5 A. Yes. That is correct.
6 Q. Could you say -- tell me what weapons you had
7 with you?
8 A. We had automatic rifles.
9 Q. Did you have any communication systems to
10 communicate with your commanders on you?
11 A. Yes, I had a Motorola.
12 Q. Can I have the usher's assistance, please, to
13 replace the aerial photograph of Ahmici, please?
14 Looking at this aerial photograph, can you
15 point out to the Trial Chamber the road -- or at least
16 the portion of the road that can be seen here which you
17 used to get to this area, how far did you come in in
18 the vehicle, where you left your vehicle and which road
19 did you take on foot?
20 A. Yes. We were moving from the direction of
21 Vitez. This is the highway, the main road
22 (indicating). From the direction of Vitez all the way
23 up to here, to Santici, Zume (indicating), and here we
24 got out of the vehicle (indicating).
25 Q. And then where did you go on foot?
1 A. We took this local road through Donja Rovna,
2 and arrived here where the road intersects the old
3 railroad tracks (indicating).
4 Q. And then?
5 A. Then we followed the railroad tracks to the
6 left and tried to get as close as possible to the
7 Catholic cemetery (indicating).
8 Q. Very well. Thank you. You can -- I will
9 take you back to the aerial photograph later on.
10 When you arrived in this area in your vehicle
11 did you perhaps hear some shots?
12 A. Yes. I heard fire coming from close range
13 and some in the distance.
14 Q. So both from close range and in the distance?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Could you tell me what specifically was your
17 task and where were you to take positions, or did your
18 commander decide that you would take decision on where
19 to deploy your men or did he take that decision for
21 A. He let me personally find the position where
22 we would deploy.
23 Q. And where did you decide to take positions?
24 What location did you choose?
25 A. We deployed in the forest near the Topola
2 Q. Could you please show on the aerial
3 photograph the forest and the position? Where in the
4 forest did you deploy?
5 A. Yes. It was this part of the forest here
7 Q. I see. That part. Could you please speak up
8 into the microphone, please?
9 A. Yes. It was this section of the forest
11 Q. Very well. Thank you.
12 When you drew close to the forest, or were
13 actually in the forest, did you, apart from the
14 shooting, hear anything else perhaps? What was said?
15 A. Yes. I heard loud voices coming from a sort
16 of loudspeaker, and I think that this came from the
18 Q. What did you hear?
19 A. I heard, "Allah-u-ekber. Give yourselves up
20 Croats, you're surrounded." And this was repeated
21 three times.
22 Q. Do you know what "Allah-u-ekber" means?
23 A. I think it means "God is the greatest."
24 Q. Are you sure that there was a loud-speaking
25 device on the mosque?
1 A. Yes, I am. I know that it came from the
2 mosque because it was so loud that you could hear it
3 five to ten kilometres away.
4 Q. And what was the weather like that morning?
5 A. It was foggy.
6 Q. Can you tell us why you had taken up position
7 in that particular section of the forest? What was the
8 reason for that?
9 A. Because it was our aim to secure the left
10 block of HVO forces moving from the direction of
11 Busovaca, and because of the possibility of the arrival
12 of BH army members from the direction of the villages
13 of Gornja Rovna, Kovacevac and Pezici.
14 Q. Are they Muslim villages?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Do you know whether any units of the army of
17 Bosnia and Herzegovina were located there?
18 A. Yes, I did have knowledge on that score.
19 Q. Can you tell me whether in the course of that
20 morning or in the course of that day when you were in
21 the forest, did you notice any individuals in the
23 A. Yes, I did. I noticed a few civilians, but I
24 didn't particularly dwell on that.
25 Q. Did you perhaps contact these people?
1 A. With the people in the forest? No.
2 Q. What were they doing there? What do you
4 A. I think that they were hiding there, hiding
5 from the shooting.
6 Q. Can you answer the following: Was your
7 unit -- did it engage in combat operations of any kind
8 in the course of that day? That is to say, did you
9 take part in any way in the conflict around the
11 A. No, we did not, because there was no need
13 Q. Did you perhaps see the barricade on that
14 particular day?
15 A. No, I did not.
16 Q. But did you know exactly where it was
17 located? You had that information, did you not?
18 A. Yes, I did have that information as to where
19 it was located.
20 Q. Did you have subsequent knowledge as to the
21 fact that in a conflict over the barricade, the Croats,
22 the locals of Ahmici, took part?
23 A. The locals, Croats, did not take part there,
25 Q. And what did you learn afterwards? Did you
1 learn that the local Muslim population of Ahmici took
3 A. Yes, they did, because they also co-operated
4 with the members of the BH army.
5 Q. Did you perhaps learn later on anything about
6 whether trenches were dug in that area, or did you not
7 learn anything of that kind? What do you know about
8 that question?
9 A. Yes, I learnt that they had dug in there and
10 around the Catholic cemetery as well.
11 Q. Did you perhaps know anything about whether
12 anybody was killed on the occasion?
13 A. I don't remember.
14 Q. Did you know whether any houses were damaged
15 or destroyed?
16 A. Yes. I had heard that some houses had, in
17 fact, been damaged or destroyed.
18 Q. Do you know Mehmed Ahmic?
19 A. I have heard about Mehmed Ahmic but I don't
20 know him enough. I know that he was a higher-ranking
21 person in the SDA party in the Vitez municipality.
22 Q. Do you mean to say that he was a senior
23 officer in that party? Is that what you wanted to
25 A. Yes, yes. That's what I wanted to say, a
1 high-ranking officer in the SDA party.
2 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to what happened
3 to his house on that particular day?
4 A. Well, I learnt later that that house was hit
5 with a shell from the Hrasno region and that the house
6 was hit and destroyed. It was hit in the roof area.
7 Q. Did you learn anything about that house?
8 A. Yes, that there was ammunition there, MTS,
9 materiel and technical devices.
10 Q. So you had information that in his house he
11 held ammunition?
12 A. Yes, that he held that there.
13 Q. Do you remember whether the fog lifted on
14 that day? You said there was fog in the morning. What
15 happened later on in the course of the day, if you can
17 A. I remember that there was heavy fog in the
18 morning, and in the course of the day the fog lifted,
19 and at the end of the day it became cloudy and it began
20 to rain.
21 Q. Let us now go back once again to the morning
22 hours when you arrived in the area.
23 When you with your group of soldiers
24 approached Ahmici, that is to say when you were moving
25 along the former railway lines and tracks, did you meet
1 anybody, that is to say, before you reached the
3 A. Yes, I did. I met a group of women,
4 children, and elderly people and there was the forester
5 amongst them.
6 Q. Did they tell you where they were going?
7 A. Yes. They said they were moving towards
8 Donja Rovna.
9 Q. Why were they going towards Donja Rovna? Why
10 were they going to Donja Rovna especially?
11 A. Because there was no fighting in Donja Rovna
12 where they were going, so they wanted to protect
14 Q. You said that among that group of women and
15 children you saw the forester. Who was the forester?
16 A. The forester was Mr. Dragan Papic.
17 Q. "The forester". Was that a nickname? Who
18 called him "the forester"? Did people call him "the
19 forester" or what?
20 A. Yes, we, from Rijeka, referred to him as "the
22 Q. How long have you known Dragan Papic?
23 A. I've known him since our school days, because
24 we went to the same school.
25 Q. Did you have occasion to see him after your
1 school days?
2 A. Yes, of course.
3 Q. Do you know where he was employed?
4 A. Yes. He was employed at the Sumarija, or
5 forestry, in Kruscica.
6 Q. Can you tell us where the head office of that
7 forestry organisation was located? Where was its head
8 office? Where was the Sumarija head office?
9 A. It was at Rijeka, next to the Bor
11 Q. Did you see Dragan Papic at Rijeka?
12 A. Yes, I did, because he would go there on his
13 way to work.
14 Q. Do you know how long Dragan Papic was
15 employed at the Sumarija or forestry?
16 A. I think up until the beginning of the war.
17 Q. Let us go back once again to the meeting on
18 the former track or line, railway line. Can you
19 indicate on the aerial photograph of Ahmici the
20 position that you met the group of women and children,
21 amongst whom was Dragan Papic as well? Can you show us
22 that location approximately?
23 A. Yes, I can. The meeting took place exactly
24 here -- approximately, not exactly (indicating).
25 Q. So there were no railway lines or tracks
2 A. Yes, that's right. We moved away from the
3 railway line and were moving towards the forest.
4 Q. Thank you. You may resume your seat.
5 Do you remember whether you perhaps talked to
6 Dragan Papic on that occasion?
7 A. Yes, I did.
8 Q. When you talked to him, did this group of
9 women and children continue along their route, or did
10 they also stop?
11 A. They continued along their way, and I
12 remained a little time with Dragan.
13 Q. Do you remember, perhaps, how Dragan Papic
14 was dressed on that particular occasion?
15 A. I don't remember.
16 Q. Did he have on that occasion any weapons,
17 weapons of any kind?
18 A. I am certain that he did not have any
20 Q. Can you tell us in a few sentences what you
21 talked about with Dragan Papic on that occasion? Did
22 he tell you where he was going?
23 A. Yes, he did. He said he was going somewhere
24 towards Donja Rovna. And that he had received
25 information when the shooting broke out that he was to
1 take over a mortar, M-16 millimetre mortar of some
2 kind. I think that's what it was. But I don't
3 remember who he was supposed to take this over from.
4 Q. Did he tell you, or perhaps did you ask him,
5 what he was going to do with that small mortar, the
6 16-millimetre mortar?
7 A. Yes. He said that he would be signalling
8 with the mortar if the forces of the BH army started
9 moving from the direction of Kovacevac to Gornja Rovna
10 and Pezici, towards the barricade, that is, to help the
11 BH army.
12 Q. So he was to send out signals to those who
13 had sent him there; is that right?
14 A. Yes, that's right.
15 Q. Did you happen to ask Dragan Papic where he
16 had learnt to handle this small mortar?
17 A. Yes, I did ask him, and he said that he had
18 learnt to handle it in the JNA; that is to say, when he
19 did his service in the former Yugoslav People's Army.
20 Q. Did you perhaps happen to ask him how come
21 that mortar was in the -- small mortar was in the
23 A. Yes, I did ask, and he said that somebody had
24 brought it in from Slimena, along with some other
1 Q. What happened in Slimena?
2 A. Well, Slimena, that was where the former JNA
3 barracks were, or warehouse.
4 Q. Do you know whether Slimena fell, and who
5 took control of Slimena?
6 A. Well, joint forces, the Croats and Muslims, I
7 think, and it fell -- that is, it was taken over by the
8 JNA, in August or September, if I remember correctly,
9 and anybody who wanted to took weapons from there.
10 Q. You said that with your unit, you were
11 stationed in the forest, in Ahmici?
12 A. Yes, I was.
13 Q. Can you tell us whether in the course of that
14 day, from the direction of Donja Rovna, you heard
15 mortar fire?
16 A. No, I did not.
17 Q. Had there been fire of this kind, would you
18 have heard it?
19 A. Yes, I would have heard it.
20 Q. Can you tell us how long you remained with
21 your unit at your positions in the forest that day?
22 A. I stayed there until 4.00 p.m.
23 Q. Was the HVO from Busovaca and Kiseljak, had
24 it succeeded in removing the barricade from the road?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Did they move on further along the road?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. When did the shooting around the barricade
4 stop that day? What time, approximately? Can you tell
6 A. I think it was about 3.30 p.m.
7 Q. In the course of that day, did you have any
8 links with your commander, Grabovac? Any
10 A. Yes, several times. By Motorola.
11 Q. Did your commander, Grabovac, ask you,
12 perhaps, to intervene and to join in the conflict?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Why not? Why did he not ask you to do this?
15 A. Because there was no need to.
16 Q. You said that you were in the forest until
17 about 16.00 hours, if I remember correctly; is that
19 A. Yes, that's right. Until about 16.00 hours.
20 Q. And where did you go after that? Did you
21 take the same road that you had come, the same route,
22 or did you take a different route?
23 A. We did not take the same route but took the
24 Radak Bridge route. We went on foot.
25 Q. Did you perhaps meet Dragan Papic again that
2 A. No, I did not.
3 MR. PULISELIC: I should like the usher to
4 come up and hand this to the witness, the Court.
5 THE REGISTRAR: The document is D28/5.
6 MR. PULISELIC:
7 Q. Mr. Rajic, this is the same aerial photograph
8 that you saw up on the board, but the scale is
9 smaller. Would you take a red Magic Marker and place
10 the photograph on the ELMO so that everybody can see on
11 their screens, and I should now like to ask you to take
12 your red marker and indicate the route you took from
13 Vitez by road. So use your red marker and draw the
14 road you took and where you went.
15 A. (Marks).
16 Q. Very well. Now mark in, with the number "1,"
17 put a "1" where you got out of the vehicle.
18 A. (Marks).
19 Q. And parallel to the road, place an arrow so
20 we know the direction you were moving in. So put a few
21 arrows in.
22 A. (Marks).
23 Q. That's right. Thank you.
24 Now place the number "2" to denote the place
25 you met the group of women and children and where you
1 talked to Dragan Papic. Indicate that with the number
3 A. (Marks).
4 Q. Put a number "3" where your position was, the
5 position you took up with your unit in the forest.
6 A. (Marks).
7 Q. And number "4," the spot where, according to
8 your knowledge and the information you received, the
9 barricade was located which is around which the
10 conflict took place.
11 A. (Marks).
12 Q. Thank you very much.
13 On that particular day, did anybody --
14 perhaps one of your soldiers from your unit, or anybody
15 else -- shoot from the forest in which you were
17 A. No.
18 Q. Had there been any shooting, would you have
19 heard it?
20 A. Yes, I would have.
21 Q. Would you have heard shooting -- let me
22 reformulate that question: Did you perhaps on that day
23 have any knowledge that next to the -- that a PAT was
24 located next to the forest, a semi-automatic
25 anti-aircraft gun? Or anybody else there?
1 A. No, where I was, there were no -- nothing of
2 that kind. But I did know that a PAT, a semi-automatic
3 gun, was positioned at the place of Hrasno.
4 Q. How did you know that? Did you hear any
5 shooting from that direction? How did you know that?
6 A. Well, I did hear shooting and I did know that
8 Q. For purposes of the record, may we introduce
9 the direction from which you heard the PAT, the
10 anti-aircraft gun shooting. You mentioned a place
11 but it didn't go into the --
12 A. The place was Hrasno. It is the Busovaca
13 municipality, above Nadioci, near Ahmici.
14 Q. I should now like to ask you --
15 MR. PULISELIC: Mr. President, perhaps it's
16 time to take a break.
17 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, we will take a 30-minute
18 break now.
19 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
20 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.
21 MR. PULISELIC:
22 Q. Mr. Rajic, let me ask you several questions
23 regarding village guards. Could you tell me whether
24 the village guards in the village which you know, that
25 is in the Vitez municipality territory, were part of
1 some military organisation? That is, did the military
2 structures have any authority over the village guards?
3 A. No. No, they did not. At least not until
4 the war, because these were self-organised groups of
5 villagers which gathered on their own initiative and
6 reached their own agreements. They would choose one
7 among themselves who would be in charge of who was
8 going to go to guard duty, what weapons they were going
9 to carry and what their shifts were going to be.
10 Q. So you said that the military structures had
11 no influence over the organisation or command of these
12 village guards up until the war, but what happened when
13 the war broke out?
14 A. When the war broke out the majority of those
15 who were involved in the village guards started being
16 mobilised, and, of course, they fell under the
17 authority of the military powers.
18 Q. So they were registered as members of the
19 reserve with the defence department, just as everybody
20 else was members of the reserves. Then when they were
21 mobilised they were then incorporated into the units of
22 the HVO; is that correct?
23 A. Yes, they were members of the reserve force.
24 Q. Do you know anything about mobilisation?
25 When the conflict started was everybody mobilised right
1 away or did this mobilisation proceed gradually?
2 A. At the beginning of the war it proceeded in a
3 gradual manner, of course.
4 Q. Can you tell us, did members of the village
5 guards wear uniforms?
6 A. Very few had them, and even those who had
7 them did not have a full uniform. For instance, one
8 would have a jacket but no pants, and jackets did not
9 have an insignia and so on.
10 Q. What about the weapons of the village
11 guards? Do you know anything about what types of
12 weapons they had?
13 A. I know for the most part they had hunting
14 rifles, double barrelled, and old rifles like M-48.
15 Q. M-48, those were the old type of military
16 rifles; is that correct?
17 A. Yes. That is correct.
18 Q. And do you know, how did they acquire those
19 rifles? Did people just find different ways to acquire
20 them or did they come from Slimena?
21 A. As I mentioned previously, everybody went up
22 to Slimena and took whatever they could, and most
23 people took rifles and took hand grenades, things like
24 that. I think for the most part, all of these weapons
25 came from Slimena.
1 Q. Could some of these weapons have been taken
2 in combat against the Serbs and then sold? Would you
3 say that there were cases when that occurred too?
4 A. Yes. That is possible, but it was rare that
5 somebody would buy these weapons.
6 Q. Thank you. I'm now going to ask you several
7 questions relative to the second conflict between
8 Croats and Muslims which took place on the 16th April,
10 Can you tell us where you were on 16 April,
11 1993, in the morning hours?
12 A. I was at home asleep.
13 Q. And on the 15th of April, the day before,
14 were there any indications? Did you see or hear
15 anything that would indicate to you that on the 16th of
16 April this type of conflict could take place?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Where were you on the 15th of April?
19 A. Also at home.
20 Q. Did you have a day off, were you on vacation,
21 if you were there -- if you were at home on that day
23 A. Yes, I had a day off.
24 Q. And what happened on 16 April in the
25 morning? Did you hear shooting? When was it? Can you
1 tell us a little bit more about that?
2 A. As I said, I was asleep, and sometime between
3 5.00 and 5.30 I was awakened by shooting and by
5 Q. Did you perhaps talk to somebody after that?
6 Did you meet somebody? What happened?
7 A. Yes, I received a telephone call.
8 Q. Who called you and what did you talk about?
9 A. I was called by Karlo Grabovac, and he told
10 me that a new conflict had broken out in Ahmici.
11 Q. Karlo Grabovac was your commander; correct?
12 A. Yes. He told me to get -- to come out
13 immediately and go to feature 517, which was called
14 Crveno Brdce, which was right up from my house about
15 200 to 300 metres.
16 Q. Could you now please point this position on
17 the aerial photograph, and if I can just ask the
18 usher's assistance to again remove the smaller aerial
19 photograph of Ahmici.
20 Would you please find this feature which you
21 mentioned, Crveno Brdce?
22 A. It is this area (indicating). This is the
23 feature 517.
24 Q. Is this high ground?
25 A. Yes. And we had to watch and see that the
1 Muslim forces would not advance from the area of
2 Vranjska, which was a purely Muslim area.
3 Q. Very well. You may sit down again.
4 At this feature called Crveno Brdce, was a
5 line of defence established there?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You said that you were tasked with watching
8 that BH army forces would not advance. From which
9 direction did you say?
10 A. From the direction of Vranjska.
11 Q. At this feature, near and around that
12 feature, was there any significant facility located
13 there, of some significance for Rijeka?
14 A. Yes. This is where reservoirs of drinking
15 water are located, which are used by the village of
17 Q. Did you see Goran Males at this line of
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. When you fully established this line of
21 defence, could you say how many of you were there at
22 this line?
23 A. We were about 130.
24 Q. Could you say how long this line was? What
25 was its length? How much space did it cover?
1 A. About 4.000 metres, or four kilometres.
2 Q. How much time did you spend there? How long
3 did you hold this line of defence, can you recall
5 A. Until the end of the war. That is, until the
6 truce was signed.
7 Q. Apart from the fact that on that day, 16
8 April, 1993, you heard shooting and perhaps saw some
9 smoke, because I assumed that you could see Ahmici from
10 there, did you know on that day what actually happened
11 in Ahmici on that day? Did you know this?
12 A. On that day I didn't know anything except
13 that there was fighting there.
14 Q. So you could hear shooting, is that correct,
15 and could you see some smoke? Yes?
16 A. Yes. You could see smoke and shooting could
17 be heard.
18 Q. So all this could be seen from the position
19 in which you were located?
20 A. Yes, it could be seen.
21 Q. Can you say what you learned subsequently
22 regarding what happened in Ahmici?
23 A. Subsequently I learned that there were a
24 number of killed Muslims, burnt and destroyed houses,
25 and also that there were several Croats who were
2 Q. Did you learn who took part in this conflict,
3 whether the BH army was also involved in it, the army
4 of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the HVO? In other words,
5 did the BH army take part in this?
6 A. I don't know.
7 Q. Did people talk about it? I'm not saying
8 that you have any personal knowledge, but did you
9 subsequently hear from people in conversations?
10 A. Yes, later on, subsequently I heard that
11 there were armed groups of Muslims and Croats. Now,
12 whether this was BH army and HVO, I don't know the
13 exact names of units involved.
14 Q. Do you know that the traffic along the main
15 Busovaca/Vitez road was blocked?
16 A. Yes, it was blocked at Buhine Kuce.
17 Q. In what way?
18 A. There was machine-gun fire at Buhine Kuce on
19 the part of the BH army; that is, on the part of
21 Q. Was the traffic interrupted for a day only,
22 or did it take longer?
23 A. This continued for the most part of the war.
24 Q. And what was your knowledge, given that the
25 traffic in that part of the road was interrupted?
1 Where was the traffic diverted from Vitez to Busovaca,
2 and the other way around?
3 A. If you went from Busovaca to Vitez, you would
4 turn off to go towards Donja Rovna.
5 Q. You would have to go to the left?
6 A. Yes, that is correct, you would have to go to
7 the left, to Gornja Rovna, then cross the Radak Bridge
8 and go to the village of Rijeka, and on in the
9 direction of Vitez.
10 Q. Very well. So it's through Rijeka and across
11 Radak Bridge upstream to Rijeka; and then from Rijeka,
12 where did you go from Rijeka? Did the road merge with
13 the main road after Buhine Kuce?
14 A. Yes, yes. Then you would reach the main road
15 and turn left and go towards Vitez.
16 Q. In light of what you have just said, did this
17 Radak Bridge have any strategic significance, and was
18 it to be protected?
19 A. Absolutely. It absolutely had significance.
20 It was the only way to Busovaca via Nadioci.
21 Q. So if there is no bridge and if the road was
22 cut off, would you have been completely cut off there?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. What was the danger with respect to Radak's
25 Bridge? Why was it to be protected? From whom was it
1 to be protected? Who could have destroyed it?
2 A. We were to protect it from the sabotage units
3 of the BH army, who could have destroyed it.
4 Q. In those wartime days, did you see or meet
5 Dragan Papic?
6 A. No, I did not. I only saw him after the
8 Q. So you only saw him after the end of the war;
9 can you tell me where you saw him?
10 A. In the town of Vitez itself.
11 Q. Did you perhaps talk about who was where,
12 what had happened? Did he tell you where he was during
13 the war?
14 A. Yes, he did. He said that he was at first
15 part of security of the bridge.
16 Q. Which bridge is this?
17 A. It's the Radak's Bridge.
18 And that sometime during the war, I think it
19 was in the fall --
20 Q. Fall of which year?
21 A. Fall of'93, he was wounded. But I don't know
22 at which section of the defence line.
23 Q. You said that you used to see Dragan Papic in
24 Rijeka before the war. He was a forester there; he
25 would come to Rijeka because that's where the
1 administrative office of the company was. Can you tell
2 me, did you notice anything particular on his face?
3 A. Yes. Yes, he had a big beard.
4 Q. In this courtroom, do you see Dragan Papic?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Is he still wearing a beard?
7 A. Yes, but now it's much shorter.
8 Q. So before, it was what?
9 A. Oh, yeah, he had a much bigger and more
10 grown-in beard.
11 Q. Have you heard of a unit called 92nd Vitez
12 Home Guard Regiment?
13 A. Yes, I did hear about it.
14 Q. From what you know, where and when was this
15 92nd Vitez Home Guard Regiment established?
16 Approximately when and where was it established?
17 A. I believe that it was established in 1994,
18 and it replaced Vitez Brigade.
19 Q. I see. So it replaced Vitez Brigade; and as
20 such, was it established after the truce was signed, or
21 was it established before?
22 A. Yes, it was established after the truce was
24 Q. So given its name, was this an active or a
25 reserve formation?
1 A. The very name, home guard, implies it was a
2 reserve unit.
3 Q. Are you absolutely sure that this unit did
4 not exist in 1992?
5 A. 100 per cent.
6 Q. Do you have any personal recollection that in
7 units where you were a soldier, that you belonged to,
8 was barred from passing on some roads by barricades set
9 up by the BH army units?
10 A. Yes, I personally experienced that. I
11 believe that this was sometime in September 1992, in
12 the village of Karaula, which I believe is in the
13 Travnik municipality.
14 Q. Where were you going at that time? Where was
15 your -- what was the destination that your unit was
16 trying to get to?
17 A. Whenever we were going to Jajce, that is --
18 we used to go to Jajce, and we always had to go through
20 Q. So BH army units barred your passage; is that
22 A. Yes, that is what happened.
23 Q. And do you know what kind of fighting was
24 going on in Jajce, between whom?
25 A. Between JNA, that is the Serbian forces, and
1 the HVO. And of course --
2 Q. Who held Jajce at that time? And who was
3 trying to take it?
4 A. It was controlled by the HVO. And the
5 Serbian forces wanted to take it, and then eventually
6 they did.
7 MR. PULISELIC: May I ask the usher's
8 assistance to show the witness Prosecution number 353.
9 Q. Mr. Rajic, in the past few days we looked at
10 this list, and it is Prosecution Exhibit 353. From
11 that list, as far as you recall, can you see when it
12 was compiled, when the list was compiled? For example,
13 on the last page, page 109, page 109, that's where the
14 list ends. So there, or somewhere up in front, is
15 there a date which could tell us when this list was
17 A. No, I can't see it.
18 Q. Going on to the next page, there's no number
19 there. Once again the list has been prolonged, and
20 then the last number there is 4.653, on the next page.
21 So the page -- the last enumerated page was 109. Turn
22 to the next page, the page after that.
23 A. I can't see the number.
24 Q. Have you found page 109?
25 Have you found it? At the top, in
1 handwriting, 109, across the middle. In the middle of
2 the page. It's not the last page. The centre top.
3 Have you found page 109? In the centre.
4 A. No.
5 Q. Well, find page 109.
6 A. There's nothing here.
7 Q. We found 109 now. Well, on that page 199
8 where the list was concluded, is there any date at all
9 from which we could deduce when the list was compiled?
10 Can you see any date there?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Now turn to the next page.
13 A. Backwards or forwards?
14 Q. Not backwards, forwards. There's no number
15 at the top of that page, is there?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Well, that list was completed at the end and
18 the last number is 4.653. Can you see a date there
19 from which we could deduce when the list was compiled?
20 A. No.
21 Q. From this document -- take a look at the
22 document please. At the top of this page it says --
23 what does it say, that these are members of -- a list
24 of members of ...
25 A. The 92nd Home Guard Regiment of Vitez.
1 Q. You said, and here you could see the time
2 when they were engaged in units, "From/to." Look at
3 the date "From/to," the time they were engaged, and
4 there are a lot of 1992 dates. At that time did the
5 Vitez Home Guard Regiment exist?
6 A. No, it did not.
7 Q. I should now like to ask you to open the
8 document to page 82. Find page 82 now, please.
9 A. I've found it.
10 Q. In the middle of the page under number 4.466,
11 I don't know if you can see that number because --
12 A. I can't see that number.
13 Q. You can't see it. It's in the centre of the
14 page and your name is listed there, Zdenko Franjo
16 A. I found that, yes.
17 Q. Now turn to the column where it says "Status"
18 at the top of the column.
19 A. I found it, yes.
20 Q. What, in your assessment, do these letters
21 "RVI" stand for that you see at the top, "RVI"?
22 A. It means a military invalid, wartime military
24 Q. And what is the letter "P" there?
25 A. It is "reserve," Pricuva.
1 Q. Your name in that column and status, you have
2 the letter "P" where status is concerned, and then a
3 date, followed by a date, the date you were involved,
4 8th of April, '92 until the 26th of February, '96, and
5 then there is a signature. Is that your signature?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Were you in the reserve formation or the
8 active component?
9 A. I was the active component.
10 Q. Is the date the 8th of April, '92, the date
11 there, does it correspond to the time that you were
13 A. No, it does not.
14 Q. When were you engaged?
15 A. I think it was about the 19th or 20th of
16 June, 1992, but not the 92nd Vitez Home Guard Regiment
17 but the reserve formation.
18 Q. When you signed this did you think that it
19 was all right to quote this earlier date?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Why did this agree with you? Why did you
22 find it all right?
23 A. Well, because of the units (sic) themselves.
24 Q. What does that mean? What did the -- I've
25 been warned that it wasn't entered into the transcript
1 correctly, the dionica.
2 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, indeed. I mean,
3 "shares" has been translated as "units." "Shares,"
5 MR. PULISELIC: "Shares." It should be
7 Q. Being engaged in the war or your more years
8 of service, did they bring you more shares, more shares
9 to these people?
10 A. Yes, of course. If you had a longer time
11 inscribed and had you been a member of a unit for a
12 longer period of time, you would have had more shares.
13 Q. Was that the case with the Muslims as well?
14 A. I don't know.
15 Q. On this list and this particular page, in
16 your particular case -- I'm sorry that you can't see
17 the number by the side, it would be easier to make
18 ourselves understood if you could, but there is the
20 For example, in the tenth line from the top,
21 tenth line from the top, there is a name Koroman Ante
22 Ivana. Is that a woman, a female name, judging by the
24 A. Yes, it is.
25 Q. Then two lines below that there is Santic Ivo
1 Jozuka. And then down below that we come to the end of
2 the list, fourth line from the bottom, and there was
3 Kalinic Ante Katica.
4 A. Yes, I found that.
5 Q. Then two lines up above there is Frljic Milka
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Are they all women?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Were women members of the HVO?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Now take a look at the column with the
13 heading "JMBG." Do you know what "JMBG" stands for?
14 A. Yes, I do know. The first two numbers --
15 Q. Take your own, for example. Take your own
16 JMBG and explain to the Trial Chamber what "07"
18 A. 07 is the day of birth, then 04 is the month
19 of birth, and 969 means the year of birth, and the
20 left -- the numbers after that, 193628, that is the
21 municipal number under which I am registered in the
23 Q. Thank you. Let us now go four lines below
24 your number, and you will find Santic Franjo Franjo.
25 Did you -- have you found that name?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What year was that individual important?
3 A. 1935.
4 Q. Now move down seven lines below that figure,
5 Livancic Ivo Anto. That is the name. Have you found
6 that name?
7 A. Yes, I have found it.
8 Q. What year was that individual born in?
9 A. 1934.
10 Q. Now look four lines down from that name -- it
11 seems that the transcript has recorded my question as
12 being when that lady was born -- why that date is
13 important, and I asked when was the lady born, when
14 was -- it's not a lady, it's a man. "When the man
15 born," that was my question. "Santic Franjo, when was
16 he born?"
17 And this brings us to the name Biletic Jozo
18 Vinko. When was he born? Four lines below Livancic
20 A. Biletic Jozo Vinko, he was born on the 6th of
21 October, 1935.
22 Q. These individuals, they are men. In view of
23 the years they were born in, could they have been
24 members of the HVO?
25 A. No, because they are too old to be that.
1 Q. Very well. Let us go back to the beginning,
2 and let us take page 2. Have you found page 2? Line 3
3 there is Maros Franjo Nada.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And in the column, the number of the month
6 before, it says "49" before the signature. So from
7 this list would transpire that Maros Franjo Nada -- is
8 that a woman?
9 A. Yes, it is.
10 Q. That she was in the HVO for 49 months, and
11 the same -- there is a similar thing in the next
12 lines. Palavra Stipo Marica see, Grabovac Fabijan
13 Ljiljana; are they women?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And it states that they were in the HVO for
16 37 months. Were women members of the HVO?
17 A. No, they weren't. That was impossible.
18 Q. Look at the centre of the page. It is number
19 51, but you can't see it because the document has been
20 bound that way. Markovic Nikola Danica. Markovic
21 Nikola Danica?
22 A. I've found it, yes.
23 Q. And it says here that she was in the HVO for
24 49 months. Under the column where it states "Months,"
25 the figure is 49.
1 A. Yes, I can see that.
2 Q. Is that possible?
3 A. No.
4 Q. In the third line from the bottom it says
5 Rajic Jozo Ljubica. Is that a woman?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Turn to page 3. Turn the third page over.
8 In the centre and the number is 90, I can see the
9 number as well now, and it says Majstorovic Mijo
10 Dragana. Is that a woman?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And then under 110, 111, 112, 13, it says
13 Ruzica, Zorica, Gordana? Are they women?
14 A. Yes, they are.
15 Q. On page 4, the column headed "JMBG," number
16 154, at the end of the page, third line from the
18 A. I've found it.
19 Q. And it is Milicevic Franjo Ivica. When was
20 that individual born?
21 A. In 1930.
22 Q. Individuals born then, could they have been
23 members of the HVO?
24 A. At no events, no.
25 Q. Look at page 6. The second individual,
1 Zahirevic Ramo Began. What year was that individual
3 A. 1931.
4 Q. Now take a look at some ten lines after that,
5 Zuljevic Jozo Anto?
6 A. Yes, I've found it.
7 Q. What year was that individual born in?
8 A. 1925.
9 Q. Very well. There are other dates like that
10 of elderly people and while we're on this page, look at
11 line 3, please, and the name is Kolak Niko Kata.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Then two lines below that Tomic Stipo Ana.
14 Have you found that? Two lines below.
15 A. Yes I've found it.
16 Q. Then we have, five or six lines below that,
17 Samija Stipo Andelka.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And then five lines below that Sucic Nikola
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. PULISELIC: There seems to be a problem,
23 Mr. President, because the names have not been
24 introduced into the transcript.
25 JUDGE CASSESE: We will see to it that
1 they're recorded.
2 MR. PULISELIC: Very well. Thank you.
3 Q. Then take a look at the next line. Hrvac
4 Slobodan Sanja?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And look down, below six or seven lines below
7 that, Kolak Marko Dragana.
8 A. I've found it.
9 Q. Are they all women?
10 A. Yes, they are.
11 Q. For example, on page 7, and the number is
12 270, it is about ten lines from the bottom, Safradin
13 Jakov Ivo. And look at the JMBG. When was that
14 individual born?
15 A. Safradin Ivo was born in 1929.
16 Q. What does it mean on this page, the column
17 titled "status"? What does "PG" mean, in your
19 A. Poginula osoba, that is killed individual.
20 MR. PULISELIC: Mr. President, there are a
21 lot of pages, and that I know I would be taking up much
22 too much time. I can go page by page in this way and
23 prove that in the -- the list includes elderly
24 individuals and a lot of women. I am not going to take
25 up your time, but I'm just going to look at two more
1 pages, just two more pages. So I'm going to skip the
2 rest and I ask the witness to look at page 76.
3 Q. Mr. Rajic, have you found page 76?
4 A. Yes, I have.
5 Q. Take a look at the tenth line from the
6 bottom. It says "Tuco Osman Ufeta."
7 A. I've found it.
8 Q. Do you know that -- is it a woman?
9 A. Yes, it is.
10 Q. Do you know her?
11 A. I know her personally.
12 Q. Is she a Muslim?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Where does she live?
15 A. At Rijeka.
16 Q. What does she do?
17 A. Well, she was a midwife.
18 Q. And the column, JMBG, it states -- what year
19 was she born?
20 A. 1935.
21 Q. And the column as to month, it says 22; is
22 that correct?
23 A. Yes, it is.
24 Q. Was Tuco Osman Ufeta a Muslim, therefore, and
25 she helped women give birth, was she a member of the
2 A. No.
3 Q. I'm just going to look at one more page;
4 otherwise we could spend five days going through this
5 list. On page 94.
6 Have you found page 94?
7 A. Yes, I have.
8 Q. Take a look at the fourth line.
9 A. Yes, I've found it.
10 Q. Nevanka Vinko Rajic. Do you know that
12 A. Yes, I do.
13 Q. Who is she?
14 A. It is my bride -- that is to say my brother's
15 wife; my brother's wife.
16 Q. Was she a member of the HVO?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Mr. Rajic, I won't go on with the list. What
19 is your opinion -- you have seen the lists in quite a
20 lot of detail; what do you think about the authenticity
21 of this list? Is what is written here correct, or not?
22 A. Well, this was written because of the shares
23 that I mentioned earlier on. And the shares
24 themselves. I know that we were to have received these
25 shares, we Croats, just like the Muslims, for
1 remuneration, wartime reparation. And the dates
2 testify to the fact that they would stipulate earlier
3 periods, earlier mobilisation, when they joined the
4 units, whether they were active or not was not
5 important, but that earlier dates were stated.
6 Q. Very well. But you see that there are a lot
7 of individuals who are elderly persons; did those
8 people take part in the war at all, and were they
9 members of the HVO?
10 A. No, they did not take part. But they were
11 nonetheless included in the list.
12 Q. What happened to the women? Was that the
13 same reason? Did it apply to the women as well?
14 A. Yes, the reason was the same with the women
15 because of the numerical state itself, the number of
16 members of the HVO with respect to the number of BH
17 army members.
18 Q. So the number -- so many have been listed
19 because of the shares; is that correct?
20 A. Quite precisely that, yes.
21 MR. PULISELIC: Thank you, Mr. President; I
22 have no further questions. Thank you.
23 I should like to tender into evidence the
24 list, Defence Exhibit D28/5.
25 JUDGE CASSESE: Any objections? No?
1 It will be tendered in as evidence.
2 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, no other
3 Defence counsel will examine this witness.
4 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
5 Mr. Terrier?
6 MR. TERRIER: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Cross-examined by Mr. Terrier:
8 Q. Good morning, Mr. Rajic. My name is Franck
9 Terrier; I'm one of the Prosecution attorneys. I'm
10 going to ask you to answer several questions. First of
11 all, you said at the beginning of your testimony that
12 you are currently a policeman, a member of the civilian
13 police in Vitez; is that correct?
14 A. Yes, that is correct.
15 Q. Could you specify how long it's been that
16 you've been a policeman?
17 A. From 21 June 1994.
18 Q. What training did you receive as a policeman?
19 A. I'm just a regular policeman.
20 Q. Doesn't a regular policeman receive any
21 training in Vitez?
22 A. We just had a course which we took to become
23 a policeman.
24 Q. What did you do before the beginning of the
25 war? What was your position from 1990 to around the
1 middle of 1992, what was your profession?
2 A. I was a carpenter by trade.
3 Q. You told us that during the war you were a
4 volunteer soldier. Could you tell us exactly from what
5 point on you were a volunteer soldier in the HVO, and
6 until what date?
7 A. I don't know the exact date, but I believe
8 that it was mid-June of 1992.
9 Q. And until what date did you remain a
10 volunteer soldier?
11 A. I was a volunteer during the period when we
12 were fighting Serbs, and when we were -- during the
13 conflict in early 1993, we were mobilised down at the
14 Vitez municipality.
15 Q. Could you tell us, in terms of months and
16 dates, until what date it was that you remained a
17 soldier in the HVO ranks, volunteer soldier?
18 A. I didn't quite understand the question, I'm
20 Q. I wanted you to tell us, Mr. Rajic -- that
21 is, to tell the Tribunal -- until what date, in terms
22 of months and years, you were a volunteer soldier
23 within the HVO ranks.
24 A. Until the beginning of the conflict in 1993.
25 We continued fighting, but as I said, we were then
1 assigned to this unit after this new conflict broke
3 Q. I would like to know exactly what unit you
4 were a member of as an HVO volunteer. What was your
6 A. It was the regular HVO, or active HVO
8 Q. I understood that you were a member of an
9 active HVO unit, but could you give us more details?
10 What unit was that, in respect of battalion, or
11 company, or platoon?
12 A. I just said that it was called the regular or
13 active HVO forces of Vitez. There was no other name.
14 Q. What was your rank in the unit?
15 A. It was squad commander.
16 Q. Could you tell us, what was the chain of
17 command that you reported to?
18 A. Could you please repeat the question?
19 Q. Could you tell us who the commander was above
20 you who was authorised to give you orders?
21 A. My commander was Mr. Karlo Grabovac.
22 Q. And above him, above Mr. Grabovac, who was
24 A. I don't know. Believe me.
25 Q. What was Mr. Grabovac's rank?
1 A. I wouldn't know.
2 Q. To which units -- or over which units, rather
3 did Mr. Grabovac command?
4 A. The regular or active forces of the HVO,
5 Vitez. But not all of the forces; just the ones in
7 Q. Let me ask the question in a different way:
8 How many men did Mr. Grabovac have under his command?
9 A. I believe around 30.
10 Q. Mr. Rajic, let's go back to this book for a
11 few moments, the book that you've got in front of you,
12 and specifically page 82, where your name appears as
13 indicated a little while ago.
14 A. I've found it.
15 Q. Thank you. On the next-to-the-last column on
16 the right, is your signature there?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. I would like to understand the explanations
19 that you gave a little while ago. As regards this
20 book, was it not a logbook that had been set up in
21 order to calculate the actions that each of the members
22 of the HVO did? Is that the meaning of this book, this
24 A. Most likely it is, yes.
25 Q. Let's go back to the line which deals with
1 you. The two dates which appear there and the number
2 of months that you spent within the HVO; where do those
3 numbers come from? Where do these indications come
5 A. I don't know.
6 Q. When you signed this log, do you remember
7 whether those indications that were typed in respect of
8 the dates and those that were hand-written in respect of
9 the number of months, were these indications already
11 A. Yes, they had been entered already.
12 Q. Does your signature therefore confirm the
13 reality of or the correctness of these indications?
14 A. No. Because in those two months, I think I
15 have more entered in than I actually did. But I was of
16 course happy about this signature, because it meant
17 more shares.
18 Q. I think that we agree, the signature -- you
19 said that there was an error in the book, but the
20 signature means that you agreed with the dates that
21 appear in the log and the number of months that have
22 been used in order to calculate the number of shares?
23 A. Yes, as I said, I agreed with this, even
24 though it is incorrect. But I agreed with it because
25 of the shares, because of the value of shares. In
1 other words, if you have been active for a longer
2 period of time, you received more shares.
3 Q. Therefore you received -- what you tell us,
4 Mr. Witness, that you received more shares than you
5 were supposed to?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You received more shares than the number of
8 shares that you were entitled to?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Could I ask you if that is correct?
11 A. No. No, but I signed for this number of
12 shares, just as everybody else here did, because as I
13 said, the longer of the period of time active in the
14 military, the more shares you received.
15 Q. If I've understood the explanations which you
16 gave us about the questions that were asked by the
17 attorney, all people of a certain age -- middle age
18 people signed this and all the women who signed this
19 book, and there were some of those as well, they all
20 signed indications that in fact are not truthful.
21 A. Yes, that is correct. Women and elderly men
22 had never been mobilised in the HVO, but they were
23 included in the list because of the shares; that is, to
24 increase the number of shares.
25 Q. Therefore, if we follow your explanations,
1 and that's what I'm doing, all the elderly people and
2 the women who signed this book were just as dishonest
3 as you were. That's what you're saying, is it not?
4 A. Honesty was not at issue here. What was at
5 stake here was to match the number of shares which the
6 BH army members were getting.
7 Q. I don't understand your answer. Could you be
8 more clear, please?
9 A. By including the names of elderly and women
10 in this list as if they had been mobilised, meant
11 increasing the number of people receiving shares.
12 Q. Yes. What is the relationship with the
13 compensation that was received by the army of
15 A. Because of the fact that there were many
16 more, we -- and they received many more shares. We
17 tried to get as close to that number, to increase the
18 number, to match their numbers, so that when these
19 shares were distributed, that we would get as close to
20 the number that they were getting.
21 Q. Why did some people receive compensation for
22 46 months, I think that was your case, whereas others
23 received it for 7 months or 16 months or five months;
24 I'm look at the page which is open in front of you.
25 What did this correspond to?
1 A. I don't know, because I didn't do this.
2 There were teams of people who came to work on this, so
3 I wasn't involved, and I don't know.
4 Q. And your opinion, on what basis did the
5 people who prepared this list base what they did?
6 A. There's no document relating to that.
7 Q. You've got no record or any kind of military
8 document or a file for each of the HVO soldiers?
9 A. As far as I'm concerned, I had no document of
10 that kind.
11 Q. In your opinion, as far as you know, were
12 there offices which were part of the HVO and in which
13 records were kept or documents, case files? In respect
14 of people who had been mobilised or who were regularly
15 working for the HVO or in the HVO?
16 A. I believe that after the war, such an office
17 was established.
18 Q. But when you speak about the HVO, what are we
19 referring to? What is referred to? Does this mean
20 that the HVO did not include administrative
21 departments, or logistical departments, or departments
22 that were responsible for supplies, communications,
23 transport, and many other activities?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Within these departments that were not
1 involved in the fighting but which were part of the
2 HVO, was it possible that women or middle-aged people
3 might have worked?
4 A. No. Not elderly. At any rate, not elderly.
5 Q. But women?
6 A. Some of them, but it was a rarity.
7 JUDGE CASSESE: I'm sure you have many
8 questions, Mr. Terrier, perhaps we might take a break
9 now for about 15 minutes?
10 MR. TERRIER: Yes, of course, Your Honour.
11 --- Recess taken at 12.20 p.m.
12 --- On resuming at 12.36 p.m.
13 MR. TERRIER: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Q. Mr. Witness, in order to correct an ambiguity
15 that I see in the transcript, you confirmed that within
16 the HVO there were logistics, supply, communications
17 and transport services as well as others that were not
18 directly involved in the fighting in the field; is that
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And you told us that some women -- I would
22 like to have some more details about that -- that some
23 of these -- some could fight in the non-combatant
25 A. Yes, I did say that some of them did.
1 Perhaps like in the kitchen they would cook food, but
2 this was infrequent.
3 Q. You believe that the women were used only in
4 the kitchen in the HVO and not, for example, in
5 offices, or in medical departments, or other more
6 active services, if I could say it that way, more
7 active than that one?
8 A. As I said, I was on a line of defence at
9 Crveno Brdce and I did not visit offices, but I know
10 that several ladies worked in the kitchen, they cooked
11 there, and I did not know about the offices.
12 Q. Excuse me. Mr. Rajic, you're telling us that
13 very few women worked within the HVO but you're also
14 saying that you didn't go to the offices and you didn't
15 know who was working there. I'd like to have some
16 details, more trustworthy details than you've given us
17 up to this point.
18 Do you know who worked in the offices?
19 A. No.
20 Q. So you don't know whether they were women
21 working there or not, that is, in the offices?
22 A. I don't know, and had they worked there I
23 think that I would have heard about it.
24 Q. With the assistance of the usher, I would
25 like D18/2 be shown to the witness.
1 Mr. Rajic, this is a document which was
2 tendered by the Defence. I would like you to turn to
3 page 11. You have to count them because they're not
4 numbered. Page 11 starting with the first one in the
5 Serbo-Croatian version.
6 Have you found the page? Could you look at
7 line 12? Look at the numbers. There's a number on the
9 A. I -- I have -- I'm reading page 1 in the
10 upper right corner.
11 Q. Yes, that's right. Do you see your name on
12 line 12?
13 A. No. No, not in this -- on this sheet. I
14 have Jukic Dragan listed as number 12.
15 MR. TERRIER: The problem, Your Honours, is
16 that the pages in this document are not numbered.
17 Perhaps --
18 A. Yes, I found it. I found it here. It was on
19 another page.
20 MR. TERRIER:
21 Q. All right. Line 12. Line 12 and the next
22 one is your name. Could you look at the extreme right
23 column on the page?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. What does it mean, that column?
1 A. It states the time spent with the HVO.
2 Q. What's the date that corresponds to your
4 A. 4 April, '92.
5 Q. Will you look at the top of the page? Can
6 you tell us what was the date that this document was
8 A. 27 February, 1993.
9 Q. Can you see the 27 February, '93? On that
10 date were any shares supposed to be given out to all of
11 the HVO members?
12 A. I did not understand what year you meant.
13 Q. -- 27th of February. On that date were
14 people concerned about the shares that were to be
15 distributed to each of the HVO members?
16 A. No, I don't remember.
17 Q. The date next to your name is April of 1992,
18 could you tell us what its meaning is, what that date
20 A. I don't know, but it doesn't look right to
22 Q. I'd like you to look at the next to last
23 column starting from the left of that document. Could
24 you tell us what that means?
25 A. I'm afraid I don't understand you. Could you
1 please repeat the question?
2 Q. Starting from the right side of the page
3 there is an initial column with the date, the entry --
4 when one entered the HVO. Then there's another
5 column. What does the last column refer to?
6 A. It says "sniper," which is impossible.
7 Q. So you're telling us that in respect of your
8 name, we see the word "sniper" is indicated?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. What do the other words next to the various
11 names of the people on this page, what do they refer
13 A. I really don't know, believe me. I know that
14 as far as I'm concerned, this is not right at all.
15 Q. What does the word "Strelac" mean?
16 A. That means that he's an infantryman.
17 Q. All right. An infantryman.
18 Let me say for the Trial Chamber that the
19 English translation of this document, which was
20 attached to the document which had been -- disclosed by
21 the Defence, is -- one, I can't tell you what the page
22 number is because it's not on there, but I don't think
23 that would be -- but it would be difficult -- it would
24 not be a problem if you try to find the English
25 translation again.
1 Therefore, if we look at this document that
2 was drafted on the 27th of February, 1993, according to
3 what is written on the top and to the right, it appears
4 that you were taken into the HVO in April of 1992 as a
5 sniper. Can we say that these indications are
7 A. No.
8 Q. In your opinion, why were these words put
9 down on this document, this document which was
10 disclosed by the Defence?
11 A. I don't know.
12 Q. I would like to ask you now, Mr. Rajic, to
13 look at two pages further towards the beginning of the
14 document, that is to go to page 9.
15 Do you see the name which is next to the
16 number 8?
17 A. Yes, I see. "Dragan Papic."
18 Q. What is the date which you can see in the
19 right column?
20 A. Just a moment, please. 23 June, 1992.
21 Q. In your opinion, is this a correct date?
22 A. I believe it is not.
23 Q. Why do you think that the date is not
25 A. Because I personally know that Mr. Papic
1 worked in Sumarija as a forester until the beginning of
2 the conflict in '93.
3 Q. What is the specialisation indicated next to
4 Mr. Papic's name in the next to last column?
5 A. Courier.
6 Q. What is that position, that specialisation?
7 What does that mean?
8 A. I don't know what you're referring to by
9 saying, "What does it consist of," so I'm not clear on
10 the question.
11 Q. What does a courier do specifically?
12 A. I believe he delivers mail.
13 Q. Distributes mail. Is that what you're
14 saying, distributes mail?
15 A. Yes, for instance.
16 Q. A courier within a military unit, who is a
17 soldier, distributes mail, is that what you're saying?
18 A. Well, he doesn't just distribute mail but
19 food or anything necessary, a piece of information or
20 anything like that.
21 Q. Let me move to another series of questions,
22 Mr. Rajic.
23 I would like to move to the 19th of October,
24 1992. You told us that on that date you were a member
25 of an active unit and that, in fact, you were the squad
1 commander, and you said that you had a certain number
2 of men under your orders; is that correct?
3 A. Yes. On the 19th -- between the 19th to the
4 20th of October, 1992, I was doing a shift at Rijeka in
5 Slatko Petrovic's house. I was performing my duty.
6 Q. And your job was to be a soldier who was a
7 member of the HVO at that time; is that correct?
8 A. Yes. I was in the active component.
9 Q. How many men did you have under your
11 A. I was not -- Rojnik means that I had ten
12 people under my command, a squad.
13 Q. As precisely as you can remember, what orders
14 did you receive from your commander on the 20th of
15 October, 1992?
16 A. That I form a unit of 10 to 12 individuals,
17 to form a squad. HVO troops were coming from the
18 direction of Busovaca and Kiseljak, and they were to
19 come to the Jajce destination, and he had heard that a
20 barricade existed at Topola near Ahmici, and to prepare
21 the unit if they needed reinforcements to dismantle the
23 Q. What equipment did you have? I'm speaking
24 about weapons, of course.
25 A. We had automatic weapons.
1 Q. What kind of automatic weapons did you have?
2 A. Me personally, a Falovka .
3 Q. Were there other types of weapons or more
4 powerful ones such as mortar or machine-guns?
5 A. No. Usually they were just automatic rifles
6 like the Kalashnikov types, 62-millimetre calibre.
7 Q. Did Goran Males, who you said was your
8 friend, belong to that squad until you went to Ahmici?
9 A. No. He didn't go with us.
10 Q. Did Goran Males -- was Goran Males at that
11 point a professional soldier, or in any case, on active
13 A. At that point in time, he was not. I don't
14 remember the date he joined. He was, but not at that
16 Q. So you are stating that at that date in
17 October 1992, he was not on duty, he was not in
19 A. No. No. He was not within the active
20 component. He became included later on, but I don't
21 know what time, exactly.
22 Q. Among the orders that were given to you, was
23 there any indication of the place where you were
24 supposed to set up in Ahmici?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Therefore, according to the orders that you
2 were given, you were free to decide on the position
3 that you were going to take up in Ahmici?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Were you very familiar with Ahmici?
6 A. Not enough. Not sufficiently. I did know,
7 but not enough.
8 Q. For instance, had you already gone to the
9 forest that you indicated on the aerial photograph?
10 A. I had not been to the forest, but I passed by
11 the forest, because I have an aunt which lives in
12 Nadioci, so I used to take the old railroad track,
13 during peacetime, that is.
14 Q. Are there several ways, several roads, in
15 order to go from Rijeka to Ahmici?
16 A. There is the main road, the M5 motorway; and
17 then there's another road going via Radak's Bridge, but
18 not directly to Ahmici. But once again it emerges on
19 to the M5 motorway.
20 Q. And when you ordinarily went from your house
21 in Rijeka to the house belonging to your aunt in
22 Nadioci, when you did that, what was the road that you
23 ordinarily took?
24 A. I went on foot via Radak's Bridge, the old
25 railroad track, the old railway line.
1 MR. TERRIER: Mr. Usher, could we have a look
2 at Defence Exhibit D28/5? That's the aerial photograph
3 that we saw a little while ago.
4 Q. Mr. Rajic, a little while ago you indicated a
5 point, point 3 on the photograph, which indicates where
6 you went with your unit. From the place which is
7 indicated by number 3, is it possible to see the houses
8 in Ahmici, the road, and the location where the
9 checkpoint had been set up?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Is it possible from that point to see
12 something? What can you see?
13 A. You can see if the forces of the BH army from
14 the direction of Kovacevac, Gornja Rovna, and Pezici,
15 if they were to move in the direction of Ahmici and
16 stop the blockade, the barricade which had already been
17 set up.
18 Q. If military materiel or units were set up on
19 the main road, specifically in the area of the bus
20 stop, from that place, what would you have seen?
21 A. No.
22 Q. You couldn't see Mehmed Ahmic's house either;
23 is that correct?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Did you see the house after it had been
1 damaged in the way that you described?
2 A. Well, yes, I did, afterwards.
3 Q. You answered Defence counsel's question by
4 saying there was a shell that had caused this damage.
5 How could you be so sure of what you are saying?
6 A. Well, I didn't say I knew directly of that,
7 but that I had heard that a shell had hit the house and
8 damaged it. I didn't see it personally; I heard about
10 Q. You didn't mention that it was a shell that
11 came from Hrasno? This is information that was given
12 to you; is that correct?
13 A. That's right, yes, because that is where the
14 PAT was located.
15 Q. No direct knowledge of that yourself; is that
17 A. I heard about it, and I knew that it had been
18 positioned there, and that the house was hit. I could
19 not see that at all. I just heard about it
20 afterwards. And after things had quietened down, I
21 passed by that area and saw what had happened,
23 Q. Could you specify to us at what time you
24 arrived in that forest?
25 A. It was about 5:30 p.m. Perhaps -- between
1 half past 5.00 and 20 to 6.00 p.m.
2 Q. Could you tell us as specifically as
3 possible, in respect of your memories, at what time you
4 met Dragan Papic?
5 A. Well, I wasn't looking at my watch at that
6 time. It was between 5.00 and 5.30.
7 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry; it was "a.m.," the
8 morning hours.
9 MR. TERRIER: It's "a.m." instead of "p.m.,"
10 Your Honour; please take note of that.
11 THE INTERPRETER: The morning hours, yes,
13 MR. TERRIER:
14 Q. Until what time did you remain in that
16 A. I was there until 16.00 hours.
17 MR. TERRIER: I want to go back to the
18 transcript. It must be corrected to "a.m.," and it
19 should not say "p.m." The correction is the opposite
20 of what I had heard.
21 Q. During that time that you spent in the woods,
22 you told us that you were in contact through -- by
23 Motorola with your command; did you receive
24 instructions or orders?
25 A. No, I didn't. In fact, when we started out,
1 as I had the position and location, I knew my
2 assignment, and I was told to prevent the forces of the
3 BH army should they start moving from the direction of
4 Gornja Rovna, Kovacevac, and Pezici towards the
5 barricade which had already been set up by the BH army
6 at the Topole position, or in other words, Ahmici.
7 Q. Under these conditions and in light of the
8 orders that were yours, that you received and that you
9 just recalled, are you sure that you were in the right
10 position in the midst of that forest?
11 A. I was not in the middle of the forest. I was
12 in a greater depth, because we could see the whole area
13 going towards the places that I enumerated. Because
14 that is the only place that the forces of the BH army
15 could pass, had they -- if they decided to move that
17 Q. A little while ago, you mentioned the role
18 that was played that day by the accused Dragan Papic,
19 and you mentioned the question of the mortar. Could
20 you tell us whether the use of the mortar is something
21 which the military is involved with only, or is it
22 something which is also a prerogative of civilians?
23 A. Well, military.
24 Q. About what you said, everything you said
25 about Dragan Papic's activities that day, wouldn't you
1 say that all that would lead us to think that he was
2 exercising some kind of military activity?
3 A. No, he wasn't engaged in military activity.
4 In fact, he was given -- he received information while
5 passing through Donja Rovna, I don't know who from,
6 where to take this and to take up a position
7 somewhere. And to fire just one shell, and that was a
8 signal; it was just a signal that the BH army groups
9 were drawing closer, for example, or had set out in the
10 direction of the barricade. Because he himself was not
11 able to do anything with that mortar.
12 Q. Therefore what you're saying to us, Mr. Rajic
13 -- I want to be very clear here, and I would like you
14 to be as specific as possible -- is that when one arms
15 himself with a mortar, takes a position, and fires the
16 mortar, which might be something dangerous, this is a
17 civilian activity. Is that what you're saying?
18 A. No, it is not civilian. I said that he was
19 trained to do this while serving in the JNA, to perform
20 this type of task.
21 Q. But you also told us, Mr. Rajic, that these
22 were the instructions that were given to you in
23 October, on the 20th of October, 1992.
24 A. I believe that Dragan told me that he
25 received those instructions when the shooting started
1 that evening, and I don't know who he received them
3 Q. You're telling us that the instructions could
4 be given to a civilian and not to a soldier, to a
5 military person?
6 A. Yes, they could be given to civilians as well
7 as to the military personnel.
8 Q. Does one fire a signal with a mortar? I'm
9 just -- it's a technical question that I'm asking.
10 A. No, but that was -- the circumstances were
12 Q. All right. I'm satisfied with that answer.
13 Now move to the 16th of April: When you
14 mentioned the events in Ahmici that took place on the
15 16th of April, 1993, you were not a witness to those
16 events yourself, but you said -- correct me if I'm
17 wrong, or if I interpret things incorrectly -- you told
18 us that this was a fight between units of the Muslim
19 army and the HVO units; is that correct?
20 A. I said that the conflict was between Muslims
21 and Croats. Now, whether these were units, and which
22 units, that I do not know.
23 Q. I won't ask you the question, then. But you
24 also said to us that Croats had been killed in Ahmici
25 on the 16th of April, 1993; is that correct?
1 A. Yes, I heard that subsequently, just as I
2 heard that a number of Muslims were killed and that a
3 number of houses were damaged and burned down. And
4 also that several Croats died. I don't know the exact
6 Q. You don't know the exact number of Croats
7 allegedly killed in Ahmici on the 16th of April; do you
8 know a name, the name of a Croat who was killed in
9 Ahmici on that date?
10 A. Yes. For instance, Zlatko Ivankovic.
11 Q. You said -- and I hope that I'm not
12 interpreting things incorrectly -- that during the
13 fighting on the 16th of April, 1993, in Ahmici, the
14 Croats in Ahmici did not take up weapons; they did not
15 participate in fighting.
16 A. Would you please repeat the question? I
17 missed the year.
18 Q. 1993. I'm speaking about the "fighting" of
19 16 April, 1993; that's "fighting" in quotation marks.
20 A. Yes. Croats and Muslims; that is, Croat and
21 Muslim units. But which units, how they were involved,
22 I don't know.
23 Q. Do you know whether the Croats who lived in
24 Ahmici at that time participated in the "combat"? And
25 I still put quotation marks around the word "combat."
1 A. I don't know. I don't know whether the local
2 villagers took part in it.
3 MR. TERRIER: I ask your permission, Your
4 Honour, to consult with my colleague.
5 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please
6 turn off their microphone?
7 MR. TERRIER: Your Honour, according to my
8 colleague, I would like to go back to the -- to the
9 events of October 1992 and ask a final question.
10 Q. Could you please tell us, Mr. Rajic, at that
11 time, if you remember, of course, at what time you
12 received the orders telling you to prepare to go to
13 Ahmici? Do you remember what time the orders were
15 A. It was in the morning, somewhere between 5.00
16 and 5.05 in the morning.
17 Q. How were those orders given to you? Was it
18 during a meeting or was it by telephone, on the radio?
19 A. I received it by telephone.
20 Q. As you said, was it Mr. Grabovac who gave the
21 orders to you?
22 A. Yes.
23 MR. TERRIER: I have no further questions,
24 Your Honour.
25 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Puliselic?
1 MR. PULISELIC: -- questions, Mr. President.
2 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. I assume there is
3 no objection to the witness being released.
4 Mr. Rajic, thank you so much for testifying
5 in court. You may now be released. Thank you.
6 THE WITNESS: I wish to thank you too.
7 (The witness withdrew)
8 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. We still have 12
9 minutes, so probably you can bring in the next
11 (The witness entered court)
12 WITNESS: DRAGAN KVASINA
13 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning Mr. Kvasina.
14 Could you please make the solemn declaration?
15 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
16 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
18 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be
19 seated. Counsel Puliselic?
20 Examined by Mr. Puliselic:
21 MR. PULISELIC: Your Honours, I will examine
22 this witness with -- only with respect to the -- Dragan
23 Papic's character.
24 Q. Mr. Kvasina, good afternoon, sir. Good
25 afternoon to you. Will you please introduce yourself
1 by stating your full name, date of birth, place of
2 birth and place of residence?
3 A. I am Dragan Kvasina, I was born on 4th of
4 December, 1959 in Gornja Veceriska. My current
5 residence is Gornja Veceriska in the Vitez
7 Q. Since you lived all of your life in Gornja
8 Veceriska, could you describe that area?
9 A. It is a hilly country. It is surrounded by
10 hills and mountains, and Gornja Veceriska itself is in
11 a sort of a vale, in a bowl, and it is surrounded by
13 Q. Mr. Kvasina, to your right you will see an
14 aerial photograph of the Lasva Valley. Could you point
15 approximately where Gornja Veceriska is? It may not be
16 indicated on the photograph, but if you could please
17 point us to the place. Maybe if you get up and came
18 closer to the picture you can point to it.
19 A. Gornja Veceriska is around here somewhere
21 Q. Very well. Thank you very much. You may be
23 A. It is around here (indicating).
24 Q. So it is not marked on the map?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. You may sit down now. You said that it is
2 country which is surrounded by hills and forests. What
3 types of -- what types of woodland?
4 A. There's beech, there's birch. There's about
5 12 different kinds of trees. It is rich in that
7 Q. How far is Gornja Veceriska from Vitez if you
8 took the road?
9 A. By road it is about seven kilometres,
10 somewhere around there.
11 Q. Do you know Dragan Papic?
12 A. Yes, I do know him.
13 Q. Can you say approximately how long have you
14 known him?
15 A. I've known him since 1989, and I've known him
16 well since that time and even before that I knew him
18 Q. Do you see him here in the courtroom?
19 A. Yes, I do.
20 Q. Can you say where you saw him most
22 A. Most frequently I saw him in Gornja Veceriska
23 and in that area, sometimes in Vitez, because he was a
24 forester up in Gornja Veceriska.
25 Q. So we can say that he frequented that place
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You said that he was a forester. Do you know
4 where he worked, where he was employed, Dragan Papic
5 that is?
6 A. He was employed in Sumarija, its Kruscica
7 field office.
8 Q. Can you say what did his job consist of?
9 A. His job consisted of guarding the forest in
10 the sector where he worked, and if somebody bought the
11 right to cut wood, then he would issue a document
12 specifying where such a person who had come and paid
13 would be able to go and cut wood.
14 Q. You said that there was a lot of wood in this
15 area. Do you know that sometimes there was some
16 illegal logging going on and cutting?
17 A. Yes. A lot of that happened in those
18 forests. In the area of Vitez, who -- those who did
19 not have much money would simply go into the forest and
20 illegally cut wood. People did it in order to survive,
21 because sometimes winters were very harsh, you could
22 have half a metre of snow sometimes.
23 Q. You said that people were impoverished, that
24 they couldn't afford the basic goods let alone wood?
25 A. Yes, yes. So people just had to make do the
1 best they could so that they could survive, simply
3 Q. As a forester and from what you know, did
4 Dragan Papic find these people cutting wood illegally
5 in forests?
6 A. Yes. He occasionally would find them. And
7 he wasn't able to protect it all. He would meet them
8 on the roads. He couldn't cover the entire forest.
9 For instance, sometimes he would encounter
10 somebody on the road and sometimes in the forest.
11 Q. Do you know in such cases when he would find
12 somebody stealing, that is, illegally cutting wood, do
13 you know how he behaved to the people -- towards the
14 people whom he discovered that way? Did he in some
15 ways have understanding or was he tolerant towards
17 A. He was tolerant, and he behaved well to them
18 because he understood these people. He understood that
19 it was about their survival, because those who went to
20 the woods were not the ones who had enough money, just
21 those who realised that they couldn't survive without
22 it. So he tolerated it. He would issue them warnings,
23 and then perhaps if it's -- if it's the case that -- if
24 it recurred 10, 20 times, then he had to report some of
1 Q. How about you, yourself? Did he ever find
2 you cutting wood illegally in the forest? Did you also
3 go there and illegally cut wood?
4 A. Yes, I did. I went to the forest because I
5 had to.
6 Q. You did not have money to buy wood?
7 A. No, I did not. Winters were harsh. I had to
8 survive. I had a father and a mother, two children and
9 a wife. Salaries were very small. They were very,
10 very small where I worked.
11 Q. When Dragan Papic found you cutting wood
12 illegally, did he create troubles for you?
13 A. No, he did not. He warned me several times
14 but I kept going, so on -- at one point he did report
15 me. I understood that, because had he done that to me
16 I would have reported him more than once. But again,
17 he issued me a very small fine.
18 Q. Did the Muslims all behave in a similar
19 fashion? In other words, did they also go and
20 illegally cut wood in the forests?
21 A. Yes, the Muslims, Serbs. At that time we
22 didn't make any distinctions between people with
23 respect to the ethnic group, we were just looking at
24 them as people. It is this war that turned everything
25 upside down.
1 Q. Now, what do you know about Dragan Papic?
2 Did he treat Muslims differently, that is the Muslims
3 who were illegally cutting wood, other than Croats?
4 A. Oh, no, he did not. He treated them
5 equally. He was just concerned about the forest, and
6 he did not make any distinction between Croats, and
7 Serbs and Muslims there, nor did I ever hear that he
8 abused or mistreated anybody along those lines.
9 Q. Did you also see Dragan Papic in the
10 village? Did he interact with people?
11 A. Yes, he did. When he was missing for a
12 while, they asked, "Where is Dragan?" because he would
13 spend some time with us in a store. We would play
14 cards together and just sit together.
15 Q. Did he like to make jokes and was he a social
17 A. Yes, he liked to joke. He would first come
18 over and he'd say, "Where have you been? I haven't
19 seen you in a long time." In other words, he was quite
21 MR. PULISELIC: Mr. President, I don't know
22 if this is a good moment to break, because we've come
23 to the end of this session.
24 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. We'll break now and we
25 will adjourn until tomorrow at 9.00.
1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
2 at 1.30 p.m., to be reconvened on
3 Tuesday, the 2nd day of March, 1999
4 at 9.00 a.m.