1. 1 Tuesday, 2nd March, 1999

    2 (Open session)

    3 (The accused entered court)

    4 (The witness entered court)

    5 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

    6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.

    7 Case number IT-95-16-T, the Prosecutor versus Zoran

    8 Kupreskic, Mirjan Kupreskic, Vlatko Kupreskic, Drago

    9 Josipovic, Dragan Papic and Vladimir Santic.

    10 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Good morning. We

    11 may resume with the present witness.

    12 Counsel Puliselic.

    13 WITNESS: DRAGAN KVASINA (Resumed)

    14 Examined by: Mr. Puliselic:

    15 MR. BLAXILL: Excuse the interruption, but we

    16 do appear to be short of some accused. I see Mr.

    17 Vlatko Kupreskic just here, but Mr. Vladimir Santic is

    18 not present. You may be concerned to commence

    19 proceedings without one of the accused.

    20 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you so much for drawing

    21 to our attention the absence of one accused. Well, I

    22 wonder whether we could ask probably Defence counsel

    23 whether they intend to proceed even if in the absence

    24 of an accused. No, he's coming. All right. All

    25 right. We may now proceed. Thank you, Prosecutor.



  2. 1 Counsel Puliselic?

    2 MR. PULISELIC:

    3 Q. Good morning, Mr. Kvasina.

    4 A. Good morning.

    5 Q. We left off at the question where you said

    6 that you saw Dragan around the village, that he would

    7 greet everyone, that he was always well-disposed, so

    8 let me take you further with these questions.

    9 Do you know whether Dragan Papic would be

    10 outgoing to the people? Would he extend his assistance

    11 to them? You mentioned something about wood and the

    12 illegal wood cutting, but do you have any additional

    13 knowledge in that regard?

    14 A. Yes, I do. He helped me too. On one

    15 occasion his car -- my car broke down and he came by

    16 and fixed it for me.

    17 Q. Did you ask that of him? Did he offer it

    18 himself?

    19 A. He just offered to do it himself. He said he

    20 knew how to do it and he did it.

    21 Q. What did you transport in this vehicle?

    22 A. It was a van in which I bought some carpentry

    23 supplies and he -- I was transporting that. He went

    24 about fixing it and while I set out to find another

    25 vehicle. However, by the time I found the second



  3. 1 vehicle he had already fixed the one that had broken

    2 down. So he also helped me by driving the second car.

    3 And when we arrive at my home he asked -- I asked, "How

    4 much do I owe you?" He said, "Nothing."

    5 Q. And you said he fined you when you illegally

    6 cut wood?

    7 A. Yes, he did. He fined me, but before that he

    8 issued me several warnings.

    9 Q. You also said that you saw Dragan in a

    10 village in a store where you played cards, if I

    11 understood you correctly, where you could also have a

    12 drink or something?

    13 A. Yes. There was a general store in the

    14 village, and he would pass by there and he would stop

    15 by, he would sit down with the locals, he would play

    16 cards or just banter.

    17 Q. Did you ever hear him in that group in Gornja

    18 Veceriska discussing any political issues, that he was

    19 sort of forcing certain political views or he was

    20 speaking about Muslims on negative terms?

    21 A. No. He never discussed politics. For the

    22 most part he talked about women.

    23 Q. Can you tell us how he dressed? What would

    24 he wear when he would go about -- going around the

    25 woods?



  4. 1 A. He would wear a forester's outfit, green

    2 outfit, or sometimes in civilian clothes. Sometimes it

    3 would be the -- that camouflage uniform jacket.

    4 Q. That was a camouflage uniform jacket?

    5 A. Yes, that was camouflage uniform jacket.

    6 Q. Did you ever see him wearing -- carrying a

    7 rifle, and if he did, why do you think he carried a

    8 rifle if he did so?

    9 A. Yes, he did carry a rifle, but it was in

    10 wintertime when there was a lot of game around and

    11 there were some dangerous wild animals. That's why, I

    12 think, he felt he need today carry a gun.

    13 Q. What do you know about these wild animals?

    14 What type of game lived there?

    15 A. There were bears, and boars and wolves,

    16 especially lately there were -- there were -- there was

    17 a lot of wolves. I think that it had to do with the

    18 wars, when they came down from Slovenia or something

    19 after the war had started. So it was dangerous there.

    20 Q. Do you recall until about what period of time

    21 you saw Dragan Papic in the Gornja Veceriska area?

    22 A. I saw him there until the outbreak of war.

    23 Q. How about later?

    24 A. Later I saw him after the war ended.

    25 Q. No, no, no. I'm only referring to the area



  5. 1 of Gornja Veceriska. Did you see him later?

    2 A. Oh, no, no. I only saw him there until the

    3 outbreak of war.

    4 Q. Did he ever come by your house?

    5 A. You mean before the outbreak of war?

    6 Q. Yes.

    7 A. Yes. He and his wife came, oh, to my place,

    8 but I wasn't there, and my mother later told me he

    9 was -- that he had come by with his wife.

    10 Q. So you said that you did not -- that you saw

    11 him after -- before the war. Did you see something on

    12 his face?

    13 A. On his face. He had a beard. He was growing

    14 a beard. I asked him, "Why are you growing a beard?"

    15 He said, "Well, I don't want to shave any more."

    16 Q. Does Dragan Papic still have a beard today

    17 here in the courtroom?

    18 A. Oh, this is nothing compared to what he used

    19 to have. He had a much bigger beard before.

    20 Q. I see. He had a bigger beard then?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. When you talked to him did Dragan ever say --

    23 tell something about himself, about his family, about

    24 his wife?

    25 A. He did not speak about himself. He was just



  6. 1 talking about how he would like that his wife gave

    2 birth to a son, because she was pregnant at the time.

    3 I cannot recall anything else.

    4 Q. So he said that he would like to have a son?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. Do you have any knowledge about him having

    7 any conflicts with anyone?

    8 A. No.

    9 Q. Did you ever notice that he was violent or

    10 have you heard about him ever being violent?

    11 A. No, no, I never heard that, and I never

    12 noticed him being violent when we were in the company

    13 of other people. From what I could notice, I could not

    14 notice anything like that.

    15 Q. So in closing, what could you say about

    16 Papic, about his character, about his personality? If

    17 you were to sum it up in just a couple of comments,

    18 could you say that he was -- he had a positive

    19 character?

    20 A. I could say that he associated with people,

    21 he helped people as much as he could. He did not

    22 distinguish between different people. He was

    23 sociable. He didn't mistreat anyone, he always was the

    24 first to greet people.

    25 Q. You started to say something and I may have



  7. 1 interrupted you. You said that you saw him after the

    2 war?

    3 A. Yes. I saw him in Vitez. I asked him,

    4 "Where do you work now?" He said, "I work in

    5 Impregnacija as a guard."

    6 Q. So he no longer worked in Sumarija?

    7 A. He couldn't have been because the forest had

    8 disappeared. That is, the forests which he had guarded

    9 were now under Muslim control. There were -- the

    10 defence line was close by and the area was mined. You

    11 couldn't pass through.

    12 Q. So, in other words, he said that he -- he

    13 said that he worked with another company. Do you

    14 remember anything else?

    15 A. I don't recall now. Maybe we talked about

    16 something else but now I cannot recall.

    17 MR. PULISELIC: Your Honours, this concludes

    18 my questioning of this witness. Thank you.

    19 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    20 Counsel Pavkovic?

    21 MR. PAVKOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours.

    22 As far as I can see, there will be no further questions

    23 by any other colleagues, of this witness.

    24 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you so much. So the

    25 Prosecutor? Before Mr. Blaxill starts with the



  8. 1 cross-examination, I wonder whether I could raise an

    2 issue.

    3 On this particular point, I mean, in this

    4 particular case, we -- the Defence counsel is harping

    5 on so many minute details which may not be contested by

    6 the Prosecution. For instance, what about the beard?

    7 Is the Prosecution contesting that the accused had a

    8 much longer, bigger beard in 1992/93? If the

    9 Prosecutor is not contesting this particular point, I

    10 wonder whether it is -- there's any point in

    11 repeating -- I mean, going back to this particular

    12 issue so many times. We have heard so far about five

    13 or six witnesses who have testified about the beard of

    14 the accused.

    15 MR. BLAXILL: I think, Mr. President, I can

    16 certainly confirm certain of these matters. The

    17 Prosecution takes no issue with the fact that Mr. Papic

    18 was clearly, as my learned colleague, Mr. Terrier, has

    19 previously expressed about certain of the traits of the

    20 accused, he has -- we have no indications of any bad

    21 character in the past; on the contrary. His activities

    22 mending motor cars and so forth are fully accepted.

    23 The fact that he wore his camouflage coat is

    24 not a matter of -- in dispute, and that it was in the

    25 context at times with his forestry work, that he



  9. 1 carried a rifle as a forestry man, that he indeed had a

    2 very full beard at the time. Again, that has been

    3 evidenced, I think, in video evidence before Your

    4 Honours.

    5 So we take no issue with those things, and I

    6 think in reality the nature of my own cross-examination

    7 will probably indicate that in the main the Prosecution

    8 take have little issue with very little that he said

    9 about the characters of the accused, as indeed my

    10 colleague has previously indicated to the Chamber.

    11 JUDGE CASSESE: You may now proceed.

    12 MR. BLAXILL: I'm obliged to you. Thank you,

    13 Mr. President.

    14 Cross-examined by Mr. Blaxill:

    15 Q. Mr. Kvasina, good morning to you. My name is

    16 Michael Blaxill. I'm one of the Prosecutors in this

    17 case.

    18 A. Good morning, sir.

    19 Q. As a result of your evidence, I would like to

    20 ask you a very few questions, and the first is that is

    21 it true to say, isn't it, that the relations between

    22 the Croat ethnic group and the Muslim ethnic group in

    23 your area was, in fact, very friendly and very normal

    24 at least until about the middle of 1992. Would that be

    25 correct?



  10. 1 A. Yes. They were friendly. Because Muslims

    2 would come -- from Donja Veceriska would come to visit

    3 Croats in Gornja Veceriska. During the alerts, during

    4 the overflights of aeroplanes, they came to Gornja

    5 Veceriska because it was in a valley, in a bowl of

    6 sorts, so they felt safer up there.

    7 Q. So in fact if there was any enemy at all in

    8 the horizon, you had the common enemy at the time, you

    9 felt, of the Serbs, the Bosnian Serbs, who were

    10 performing as you felt -- you know, aggression in the

    11 area; is that correct?

    12 You can just say yes or no.

    13 A. Yes. That is correct.

    14 Q. Thank you. And during that period, however,

    15 you know, the politics started to set in; and isn't it

    16 true that from what political developments went on, the

    17 atmosphere began to change between the ethnic Croats

    18 and the ethnic Muslims towards the later part of 1992?

    19 A. Could you please clarify this question a

    20 little bit?

    21 Q. Well, we've been told in this Chamber before

    22 that in a sense, nobody could help but be affected by

    23 the changes that happened between the Muslims and the

    24 Croats towards the end of 1992; the atmosphere affected

    25 everybody. Would you say that was fair?



  11. 1 A. I cannot tell you specifically -- you mean

    2 where I was, in my environment? That was a Croat

    3 village. When I went to Vitez, and with whomever I

    4 communicated, I behaved normally. At that time I was

    5 building a house. So I did not really distinguish

    6 between people. Perhaps there were some little

    7 confrontations; I don't know.

    8 Q. Were your contacts with Mr. Dragan Papic

    9 mainly during -- mainly in your own village area?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. And of course you've just said that that was

    12 in fact a Croat village, so you were all Croats

    13 together at that time, in that village?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. So as regards the relationships of Mr. Papic

    16 with Muslim people, is this what you've heard either

    17 him say or other people say about him?

    18 A. I heard from other people and from him, and

    19 by people talking.

    20 Q. I'm not disputing what you've said about him,

    21 sir, because we accept that; it's just your own

    22 personal experience, to put in context.

    23 You said that he carried the weapon, of

    24 course, his weapon, his rifle, because of the wild

    25 animals present in the forests around your area; is



  12. 1 that right?

    2 A. Yes, he carried the rifle because there was

    3 strong -- there were severe winters, and it was a big

    4 forest. So in my view, he had to be safe there.

    5 Q. It may be a small point, Mr. Kvasina, but you

    6 mentioned the presence of wolves which you felt had

    7 perhaps become worse after the war started. Did you

    8 have much of a problem for people in the forest with

    9 wolves before the war?

    10 A. What kind of problems are you referring to?

    11 Q. A danger to anybody who would be walking in

    12 the woods or working in the woods.

    13 A. It was dangerous because there were -- wolves

    14 appeared, in addition to the bears which had been there

    15 before, so now there were wolves in addition.

    16 Q. So in fact before the war it was still

    17 prudent to carry the weapon because of the threat of

    18 bears, and after the war started it was worse because

    19 of wolves too; thank you.

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. Would you say that from your knowledge of

    22 Mr. Papic, if he was a man who was placed under threat,

    23 or a man who was ordered to serve in the military or

    24 something like that, would you say he was also a

    25 character who would stand up for himself?



  13. 1 A. I never heard that he threatened anyone, that

    2 he said anything to anyone.

    3 Q. No, I think maybe sir, I didn't express the

    4 question for you to understand it properly. I'm saying

    5 if it is the other way around, if Mr. Papic was man who

    6 felt under threat, do you think he had a strong enough

    7 personality that he would stand up for himself if he

    8 had to?

    9 A. No, he was always the same. He was always

    10 smiling, he was always joyful. He had a good, cheerful

    11 disposition.

    12 Q. Thank you very much.

    13 MR. BLAXILL: I have no further questions

    14 Your Honour.

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Counsel

    16 Puliselic?

    17 MR. PULISELIC: Thank you. Just a couple of

    18 questions.

    19 Q. Mr. Kvasina, my learned colleague Blaxill

    20 asked about the presence of wolves. Would you please

    21 say when did the presence of wolves intensify in the

    22 area? I believe that you answered my questions -- my

    23 question; 'when the war in Croatia started'.

    24 A. Yes, that is when their presence intensified

    25 in the forests.



  14. 1 Q. When answering the question by Mr. Blaxill,

    2 it appeared as if you said that the presence of wolves

    3 intensified after the war started in the Lasva Valley?

    4 A. No, no, no, it was after it started in

    5 Slovenia. So people were saying that somehow they

    6 drifted down from there, that they were chased out of

    7 there. Now they were are around, from where they came

    8 I don't know.

    9 Q. I just wanted to clear up that point. The

    10 second question I have is what is -- who lived in Donja

    11 Veceriska? You said that in Gornja Veceriska Croats

    12 lived, but what about Donja Veceriska, lower Veceriska?

    13 A. Both Croats and Muslims lived in Donja

    14 Veceriska. About half and half. I don't know exactly

    15 the numbers.

    16 Q. Do you know whether Muslims, too, engaged in

    17 illegal woodcutting?

    18 A. Yes, Muslims did as well as the Serbs, in

    19 addition to the Croat villagers.

    20 Q. I see. Did the Muslims from Donja Veceriska

    21 pass through Gornja Veceriska on the way to the forest?

    22 A. Yes, they had to pass through because there

    23 was no other way.

    24 Q. Thank you.

    25 MR. PULISELIC: I have no further questions.



  15. 1 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    2 Mr. Kvasina, thank you for giving evidence in

    3 Court. You may now be released. Thank you.

    4 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

    5 (The witness withdrew).

    6 JUDGE CASSESE: And we may now move on to the

    7 first of the five witnesses to be called by Counsel

    8 Radovic and Slokovic-Glumac. So Mr. Vidovic?

    9 Does the Defence require any protective

    10 measures for these five witnesses?

    11 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: No, Mr. President, we

    12 do not.

    13 JUDGE CASSESE: None of them? Good. All

    14 right.

    15 (The witness entered court).

    16 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning, Mr. Vidovic.

    17 Could you please make the solemn declaration.

    18 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

    19 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

    20 truth.

    21 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be

    22 seated.

    23 Counsel Slokovic-Glumac?

    24 WITNESS: MILUTIN VIDOVIC

    25 Examined by Ms. Slokovic-Glumac:



  16. 1 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Thank you,

    2 Mr. President.

    3 Q. Good morning, Mr. Vidovic.

    4 A. Good morning.

    5 Q. Would you introduce yourself, please?

    6 A. My name is Milutin Vidovic. I was born on

    7 the 31st of January, 1961, in Vitez.

    8 Q. Where do you reside?

    9 A. I reside in Vitez.

    10 Q. What schooling have you had?

    11 A. I have completed secondary school, vocational

    12 school, and I am a machinist by profession.

    13 Q. In 1992, can you tell us where you were

    14 employed?

    15 A. In 1992, I was employed in the Slobodan

    16 Princip Selo company, and I worked in the boiler room

    17 there until March or April, when I was sent home and I

    18 waited, but I was nonetheless registered as an

    19 employee.

    20 Q. Where did you work after that?

    21 A. In April I worked with Ljuban Santic, my

    22 neighbour, and I rented a cafe from Pican, and we ran

    23 the cafe for three to four months.

    24 Q. After that, did you change your job?

    25 A. After that, I went to work at the market, the



  17. 1 vegetable market.

    2 Q. Did you continue to work there until the

    3 beginning of the war?

    4 A. Yes, I worked there until the first and

    5 second conflict. In the meantime, I went to Gornji

    6 Vitez and opened a kiosk selling foodstuffs next to the

    7 house of my sister, Marija.

    8 Q. At that time, you have already told us where

    9 you worked, but were you a member of the active

    10 component of the HVO at the time?

    11 A. No, I was not.

    12 Q. Did you in any way take part in the war

    13 against the Serbs that took place in 1992?

    14 A. Yes. Yes, I went twice to the front line,

    15 towards the Serbs. The first time was at Slatka Voda

    16 above Novi Travnik. I went there for seven days. And

    17 the second time I went to Vlasic, once again a

    18 seven-day shift. On both occasions, I went

    19 voluntarily.

    20 Q. Do you remember when that was in 1992? Was

    21 it the beginning of the year, the middle of the year,

    22 or the end of the year?

    23 A. The first time I went to Slatka Voda, I think

    24 it was the middle of the year. And at Vlasic, I think

    25 that was at the end of the summer, around September. I



  18. 1 don't know exactly.

    2 Q. I'm asking you this because you are on the

    3 list of the active component of the HVO.

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. And we sent this list to the Trial Chamber.

    6 Did you ever receive any remuneration from the HVO, a

    7 salary of any kind?

    8 A. No.

    9 Q. Did you in any way take part in any wartime

    10 operations, apart from the two occasions that you

    11 mentioned now, up until the 16th of April, 1993?

    12 A. No.

    13 Q. How come, then, that you are on the list? Is

    14 it an exact fact?

    15 A. I don't know. I don't think the data there

    16 is exact, because I was never within the active

    17 component of the HVO until the war and after the war.

    18 Afterwards, we all moved over, up to the defence line.

    19 Q. So up to the 16th of April, you were not

    20 there?

    21 A. No.

    22 Q. When you went on these two occasions to the

    23 front line facing the Serbs, Slatka Voda and Vlasic,

    24 did you receive weapons and a military uniform from

    25 anybody?



  19. 1 A. On both occasions I borrowed parts of a

    2 uniform from Ante Vidovic Satko, I got a hat from him,

    3 and from Ipaca I got some boots, and from Dragan Calic,

    4 I got a rifle. And when I came back from the front, I

    5 returned this clothing and the weapon to these people.

    6 Q. Who are these people? Are they people from

    7 the village, or where are they from?

    8 A. Yes, they're from the village. Dragan Calic

    9 is from Nadioci, and the other two are from Santici.

    10 Q. You say that he gave you a rifle; that means

    11 that you did not have a rifle?

    12 A. No, I did not. I did not have a rifle up

    13 until the fall of Jajce. When the wave of refugees

    14 came into Vitez, a lot of weapons were bought and

    15 that's where I bought myself an M-48 rifle.

    16 Q. Tell us, how much did you pay for your

    17 rifle? How expensive was it?

    18 A. It cost me 150 Deutschmarks.

    19 Q. Where did you buy the rifle? Where were

    20 rifles bought and sold?

    21 A. In the town itself. There was a wave of

    22 refugees, there was a column of tractors, and heavy

    23 duty things, and it was raining, and they asked to

    24 spend the night there. The Croats stayed there. After

    25 one or two days, they would move on and go further



  20. 1 towards Tomislavgrad and towards Croatia. The majority

    2 of the Muslim refugees stayed in Vitez, because we

    3 noticed afterwards that there were a lot of people we

    4 didn't know, unknown people, in all the surrounding

    5 villages and in the town itself.

    6 Q. What about your own village?

    7 A. In Santici, there were no people from Jajce.

    8 There were a few Croats -- that is to say I know they

    9 went on up to Busovaca, and the Muslims for the most

    10 part were in Ahmici, where there were about 20 or 30

    11 people put up in one house or in various apartments or

    12 where they could. They went where they could.

    13 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: May we now have

    14 Prosecutor's Exhibit -- the big map of Ahmici,

    15 Number 2, the aerial photograph of Ahmici, the

    16 Prosecution Exhibit Number 2.

    17 Q. Thank you. Mr. Vidovic, could you now

    18 please, on this aerial photograph of Ahmici, indicate

    19 the location of your house and the area of Santici.

    20 A. My house is located here (indicating). The

    21 general area of Santici is this area here which you

    22 can't see on the map, and it goes this way up until

    23 here, the stadium, and stretching along this way up to

    24 the road and below the road, but that these sections --

    25 this section here is called Gornja Zume and this area



  21. 1 is Donja Zume, where it is all the village of Santici

    2 (indicating).

    3 Q. So Zume are, in fact, part of Santici; is

    4 that correct?

    5 A. Yes, it is.

    6 Q. This part which follows on from Santici and

    7 which says "Ahmici" in the middle, is that the village

    8 of Ahmici?

    9 A. This? You mean this (indicating)? No. This

    10 is Pirici, and Pirici borders on Santici, this way,

    11 this part here right up until the road, towards Ahmici,

    12 and Ahmici are this part here, Donja Ahmici, Gornja

    13 Ahmici (indicating). And this is Pirici, the forest

    14 and everything in that area (indicating).

    15 Q. When you say Gornji Pirici, Upper Pirici,

    16 what part of Pirici is that?

    17 A. I said Upper Ahmici, Gornja Ahmici.

    18 Q. But when they say Gornji Pirici, what area

    19 does that refer to?

    20 A. Those are these houses here along the forest

    21 (indicating).

    22 Q. Tell us, please, in the part that you

    23 indicated where your own house is located, was that a

    24 predominantly Muslim part or a Croat part?

    25 A. This was a predominantly Croatian part, just



  22. 1 like Santici proper.

    2 Q. Who were your next door neighbours, your

    3 Muslim next door neighbours?

    4 A. My nearest neighbour --

    5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

    6 A. -- he lived across the road here, (redacted),

    7 and he lived here (indicating), and the neighbours on

    8 the lower half of the road.

    9 That means that it (redacted)

    10 (redacted) up here (indicating).

    11 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:

    12 Q. So they were your only neighbours?

    13 A. Yes, my closest neighbours there.

    14 Q. And on the upper part of the road; is that

    15 correct?

    16 A. Yes. Along the upper part of the road.

    17 Q. That is to say, on the left-hand side if

    18 you're going from Vitez; is that correct?

    19 A. Yes, it is.

    20 Q. Would you show us Pican's cafe, the location

    21 of Pican's cafe?

    22 A. Pican's cafe here right by the road

    23 (indicating).

    24 Q. In that part there is another cafe?

    25 A. Yes, the cafe of Ivo Vidovic. It is located



  23. 1 some 20 metres away from the main road on this route

    2 towards my house, on the right-hand side.

    3 Q. So in fact, these two cafes are next to each

    4 other?

    5 A. Yes. They are just divided by the road.

    6 Q. Thank you. You can resume usual seat now.

    7 Were there any village guards in your part of

    8 the village in 1992?

    9 A. Yes, there were.

    10 Q. Do you recall when these village guards were

    11 set up, when you started to set up the village guards?

    12 A. We started establishing village guards after

    13 the conflict with the Serbs. That is to say, from

    14 1992.

    15 People organised themselves. They would

    16 leave their houses because they were afraid for their

    17 families. It was rumoured that on several occasions,

    18 in the Serbian village of Tolovici, a helicopter had

    19 landed there, and there was a the lot of looting, cars

    20 were being stolen. There were bands that went around

    21 stealing cars and storming garages to steal the cars,

    22 breaking into the garages.

    23 Q. Were you a member of the village guard?

    24 A. No, I was not.

    25 Q. Up until the first conflict?



  24. 1 A. Up until the first conflict I was not on

    2 guard duty.

    3 Q. Why not?

    4 A. Because I didn't have any weapons, and I

    5 would spend the whole day working at the market, from

    6 early in the morning until late at night.

    7 Q. You said that the village guards were set up

    8 in 1992. What part of 1992, the first half, the second

    9 half? When were they formed?

    10 A. At the end of the first half, that is to say

    11 that in April and May of 1992 the village guards were

    12 set up.

    13 Q. How many people were included, according to

    14 your knowledge, into the village guard in your part of

    15 the village?

    16 A. There were not many people that took part in

    17 these watches because not everybody had weapons. The

    18 people that had weapons would take part in the village

    19 guards and there were about ten of these. They were

    20 Croats. Afterwards, they were joined by the Muslims

    21 from the lower pat of the village and the village

    22 guards were manned jointly.

    23 Q. Who of the Muslims stood guard with the

    24 Croats in your part of the village? Did you see

    25 Muslims going out to do guard duty?



  25. 1 A. Yes. The sons (redacted)

    2 (redacted) they would go with two Croats. I'm

    3 quoting them as an example. Then there was Braco

    4 Vrebac on one occasion, and he was with Ljuban Santic.

    5 Then there were two members from(redacted).

    6 There was Fahran Ahmic. He came from the lower part of

    7 the village and they met up at Ivo's cafe somewhere. I

    8 know that (redacted) was also included, as was his

    9 brother-in-law Strmonja Miralem.

    10 Q. (redacted) and Strmonja Miralem are Muslims,

    11 are they not?

    12 A. Yes, they are.

    13 Q. Could you indicate on the map, please, which

    14 route did you go when you went on guard duty?

    15 A. We would go from the main road, taking this

    16 route towards my own house, towards Zdravko Vrebac's

    17 house, and on towards to Pirici to the Vrebac houses

    18 below the forest -- no, that's a mistake. We went this

    19 way (indicating). These are the houses. Then we would

    20 go back towards Niko Sakic's house and Ramo's house.

    21 This is the route we took for the most part

    22 (indicating).

    23 Q. So it means that you went from the road to

    24 the left-hand side --

    25 A. Up to my own house and then upwards towards



  26. 1 the Vrebac's houses. Then we would go back, go towards

    2 Niko Sakic's house this way (indicating).

    3 Q. Thank you very much.

    4 When you became included into the village

    5 watch -- you said that you became a member after the

    6 first conflict?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. Was there an individual in your part of the

    9 village who would organise these village guards?

    10 A. No. Nobody existed. We would organise

    11 ourselves, and, quite simply, I would replace the

    12 people who had done guard duty. I would do that

    13 several times to give the people a chance to rest and

    14 to have a good night's sleep from time to time.

    15 Q. How then did you make up the shifts and how

    16 would you know who would be on guard duty the next

    17 day?

    18 A. There were no schedules. It would be me

    19 today, you tomorrow, somebody would replace somebody

    20 else. So there was no real schedule or order in which

    21 this was done.

    22 Q. Were you in any way linked with people who

    23 did guard duty in other parts of the village?

    24 A. No. No, we were not linked up with them

    25 because each part of the village would have its own



  27. 1 village watch around their own houses, protecting their

    2 own families, their women and children who were

    3 sleeping, their elderly folk, and their property.

    4 Q. Let us now move on to the first conflict

    5 which took place on the 19th of October, 1992. Where

    6 were you on that particular day, that is to say, on

    7 that particular night?

    8 A. On the 19th of October, 1992, that day I went

    9 to work in the marketplace, and as I always did, I came

    10 home towards dusk. And I had a car, the make was a

    11 Kadett. I left the goods I had at home, and then went

    12 to Ivo Vidovic's cafe. This was sometime around 8.30

    13 to 9.00.

    14 I don't know who was there but there were

    15 some 15 people, and somebody turned up from the

    16 direction of Busovaca towards Vitez and told us that

    17 the Muslims had placed a barricade near our cemetery at

    18 Topala. In talking about this event, I and Anto

    19 Vidovic, Pero Jelic, decided to go to the cemetery,

    20 because we were previously told that the Muslims were

    21 digging trenches on the left-hand side of the cemetery

    22 and in the cemetery itself.

    23 Fifteen days prior to that, I had erected a

    24 monument to my late mother, and I wanted to see that

    25 her tombstone had not fallen down perhaps, or that



  28. 1 something had happened that none of us would like to

    2 see happening.

    3 About 9.00 we started out along the main road

    4 towards the cemetery, myself and Anto and Pero. We

    5 arrived at the cemetery, we went into the cemetery and

    6 we didn't find any Muslims there, nor did we notice

    7 that any trench digging was going on in the cemetery

    8 itself.

    9 However, at the turning by the cemetery, two

    10 hedgehog devices had been positioned and several

    11 anti-tank mines, and on the other side we heard thuds,

    12 as if something was being dug, and we could make out

    13 the silhouettes, the contours. I couldn't see exactly

    14 how many people were there, it was night-time, but we

    15 could make out some silhouettes.

    16 We didn't talk to anybody. We lit candles in

    17 the church at the cemetery, and returned and went to

    18 the road entering into -- which goes into Ahmici.

    19 At the entrance to Ahmici itself, some ten

    20 metres away there was another barricade that had been

    21 set up, and it was made out of wooden logs,

    22 horizontally placed logs, with two anti-tank mines.

    23 We stopped there because we recognised some

    24 local Muslims, (redacted), Pezer Ibrisim, his brother,

    25 (redacted), the driver of the bus, and



  29. 1 there was the other Pezer. He's also a bus driver and

    2 his nickname is Scene. I think his name was Nezir.

    3 Yeah, it may be Nezir.

    4 Q. Nezir Ahmic you mean?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. You recognised these people, did you?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. At the barricade were there people whom you

    9 didn't recognise?

    10 A. Apart from them at the barricade there were

    11 seven or eight other individuals that I didn't know.

    12 And going back, there was Asim Ahmic's son at the

    13 barricade, and he was going back with us. He was going

    14 back towards his house, because his house was also in

    15 the direction of Santici from this road going to

    16 Ahmici, and he was accompanied by a tall young man.

    17 I asked him, the young man, where he was from

    18 because I didn't know this tall young man, and he just

    19 mumbled something and said, "Well, I'm from these

    20 parts," and didn't say anything else.

    21 Then they separated and branched off going

    22 towards their own house and we went back towards Ivo

    23 Vidovic's cafe.

    24 Q. The people that you saw up at the barricade,

    25 did they have any weapons?



  30. 1 A. (redacted)

    2 (redacted)

    3 and a pistol, and he was dressed in a uniform -- a

    4 guard uniform, because, in fact, he worked at the

    5 Princip factory as a guard.

    6 (redacted) had a machine gun but a new

    7 type. It was the Serbian type of submachine gun.

    8 Other people (redacted) a hunting

    9 carbine, and the tall young man had an automatic

    10 rifle.

    11 Q. Were they wearing uniforms?

    12 A. (redacted)

    13 and all the other people whom I didn't know had

    14 uniforms. (redacted)

    15 Princip factory guard uniform, Ibrisim was wearing

    16 civilian clothing and his brother was wearing civilian

    17 clothing.

    18 Q. Did you notice what kind of uniforms they

    19 were wearing? Were they camouflage uniforms, new

    20 uniforms?

    21 A. They were all camouflage uniforms.

    22 Q. Did they have any insignia, any signs of any

    23 kind on the uniforms, or didn't you notice?

    24 A. I cannot remember exactly whether there were

    25 any -- whether there were insignia. I know (redacted)



  31. 1 (redacted)

    2 (redacted).

    3 Q. What happened up at the barricade when you

    4 turned up there? What was going on?

    5 A. You mean the one in Ahmici?

    6 Q. Yes?

    7 A. Well, when we reached the barricade they were

    8 behind the barricade, and there was a sort of bunker

    9 made out of some blocks, towards the right-hand corner,

    10 (redacted)

    11 Q. Just one moment, please. When you say

    12 "bunkers" you meant blockades by the road?

    13 A. Blocks piled up one on top of another forming

    14 a square.

    15 Q. Please continue.

    16 A. When we arrived in front of Ivo's cafe --

    17 Q. I apologise, but just tell us what you talked

    18 to them about.

    19 A. Well, we talked about the information that we

    20 had received, that our cemetery had been desecrated and

    21 that trench digging was going on, and so that this

    22 should not be done in -- during the course of the

    23 night, (redacted) that this wouldn't happen

    24 and we didn't want any conflict to break out because of

    25 these things.



  32. 1 Q. Did you ask them why they were manning the

    2 barricades?

    3 A. I asked we asked(redacted) why they had these

    4 barricades put up, and he said, "Well, I don't know."

    5 He said that it was because some weapons had been

    6 seized. I don't really know exactly.

    7 Q. So it was a sort of retribution?

    8 A. Something of the kind, yes.

    9 Q. You went back to Ivo Danicin's cafe, did you

    10 not, and what happened on that evening?

    11 A. That evening we told them that the Muslims

    12 were not digging trenches in our cemetery, that we had

    13 talked to them and that there would be no problems

    14 there. I went home to sleep, and in the morning, I was

    15 woken up at about 4 a.m. by Dragan Vidovic, Nikica, my

    16 next-door neighbour, and he told me to get up and said

    17 the Muslims were blocking the road, and that they were

    18 not allowing anybody to pass, and that we should be

    19 awake.

    20 So I got up --

    21 Q. Just one moment. Dragan Vidovic is your

    22 neighbour, is he?

    23 A. Dragan Vidovic, Nikica's son. There are five

    24 Dragan Vidovics. This was Nikica's Dragan.

    25 Q. You mean in the village?



  33. 1 A. Yes, in the village.

    2 Q. And this particular Dragan Vidovic, Nikica,

    3 had a house in Santici; is that right?

    4 A. Yes. It is across the road from (redacted)

    5 house; that's where his house is.

    6 Q. Thank you. You may continue.

    7 A. I went with him to Anto Vidovic's house,

    8 which is right next to the stadium at Zume. Satko also

    9 got up. We were in his yard. There was fog that

    10 morning. Sometime before 5.00, a burst of fire could

    11 be heard somewhere in the direction of Ahmici. That's

    12 where it came from. And at 5.00 in the morning, you

    13 could hear some kind of music, which was very unusual

    14 for me; I had not heard such music before. It was

    15 coming from the mosque itself. They had powerful

    16 loudspeakers.

    17 And the announcement came: "Croats,

    18 surrender. This is a holy war, a jihad. You are

    19 surrounded. You stand no chance."

    20 This was followed by an explosion, and this

    21 music stopped, and this announcement. It was foggy, so

    22 we couldn't see anything.

    23 Sometime around 6.15, 6.20, I went to the

    24 house of Mirko Sakic with Dragan. I found Mirko Sakic

    25 there, Miro Pudja, Dragan Samija, Miro Samija, Miro



  34. 1 Vidovic, Anto Vrnada, Mirko Grgic, Pero Jelic. And

    2 after us, other people came; Braco Vrebac Zdanko.

    3 Q. Who are these people?

    4 A. All these people were residents of Zume, of

    5 that area, in Zume. Civilians, so to speak.

    6 Q. In other words, your neighbours?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. Could you please show to the Trial Chamber on

    9 this aerial photograph where exactly you went, which

    10 road you took to Mirko Sakic's house, and where that

    11 house is located.

    12 A. This house is Anto Vidovic Satko's house.

    13 This is my house. I took this road here to his house.

    14 From Satko's house, when I went with Dragan, I took

    15 this road past Niko Vidovic's house, where a shelter

    16 was, (redacted), to the house of Niko Sakic.

    17 Q. This Niko Sacic's house; please point to

    18 that, too.

    19 A. (Indicating).

    20 Q. Thank you. How far is it from the

    21 Kupreskics' houses?

    22 A. It is about 150 metres, maybe up to 200

    23 metres from the Kupreskic houses. If you go to

    24 Kupreskic houses, you have to take this road and arrive

    25 to the houses.



  35. 1 Q. Thank you. So that's where your neighbours

    2 were. You arrived, and what happened there? Could you

    3 hear or see anything?

    4 A. About 6.30, you could -- we heard shooting

    5 from the lower part of Ahmici. Later we learned that

    6 this shooting was around the cemetery itself, the

    7 Croatian cemetery. Dragan Vidovic and Zdravko Vrebac

    8 and I, since there were no Kupreskics around, went to

    9 this depression, and from there peered to see around

    10 and saw Zoran and Mirjan Kupreskic, with their wives

    11 and children, near Ivica's father's house.

    12 We approached them. I helped Zoran and

    13 Zdravko helped Mirjan to carry a child, because they

    14 also had bags with things for children. We helped them

    15 come to Mirko Sakic's house. They went on to the

    16 shelter, and I stayed at Mirko's house.

    17 Q. Do you know to which shelter they went?

    18 A. We sent them in the direction of my house. I

    19 know that Zoran's wife, Mira, was at my place, and

    20 Mirjan's wife was at Zdravko Vrebac's house, in fact in

    21 the basement of his sister's house. But she also came

    22 to my house because they were one next to another.

    23 Q. Did they go to their sister's?

    24 A. They only stayed there very briefly. And

    25 they then went to Santici, to Zoran and Mirjan's



  36. 1 sister's.

    2 Q. Where is their sister's house? What is their

    3 sister's name? Can you say that?

    4 A. Their sister is in Santici. It's -- Zorica

    5 is her name, and it's Anto Rajic's house. You cannot

    6 see their house on the map. It would be right here.

    7 (Indicating).

    8 Q. So this is still Santici?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. After they took their wives and children to

    11 the shelter, do you know, did they go to their sister

    12 at that time, or later? Did they tell you this?

    13 A. No, they did not.

    14 Q. Did they come back to where you were?

    15 A. Yes, they came to where we were, and we were

    16 with us (sic) at Mirko's house all day.

    17 Q. What happened in the village on that day?

    18 You said that the shooting had started; and after that?

    19 A. After that, the population -- that is, women

    20 and children -- were moving to shelters. The ones who

    21 were close by. You could hear intense fire there.

    22 Q. Which part of Ahmici?

    23 A. In lower Ahmici, near the cemetery, yes.

    24 Q. This shooting, how long did it last? Was it

    25 intense shooting, or sporadic?



  37. 1 A. While we were helping Zoran and Mirjan carry

    2 their stuff, the shooting was intense. Later on it

    3 quieted down, and it stopped sometime in the afternoon,

    4 sometime around 4.00.

    5 Q. Did you see where the shooting was going on,

    6 who was taking part in fighting?

    7 A. No, we could not see from the -- from the --

    8 our vantage point, which was behind Sakic's house. It

    9 was foggy, plus you couldn't see that area from the

    10 trees, the forest. Later on I learned that a Croat was

    11 killed there, and a Muslim; I think his name was Halid

    12 Pezer. And Andzelko Vidovic, from some unit

    13 in Busovaca -- from Busovaca, which was en route to

    14 Jajce.

    15 Q. Was this Halid Pezer a soldier? Do you know

    16 that?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. How do you know this?

    19 A. He was a military recruit. I know that he

    20 was over 18 years of age. Muslims were sending their

    21 people to near Sarajevo, to Cekrcici. This was just on

    22 the eve of these events. I know that when they were

    23 returning from Sarajevo, from Cekrcici, there was

    24 shooting. People were shooting in the air, celebrating

    25 their safe return.



  38. 1 Q. You saw this Halid Pezer, and that's how you

    2 know he was a soldier? I don't quite understand what

    3 you just said.

    4 A. We saw them in uniforms when they were going

    5 to Sarajevo, to Cekrcici. They were going in buses and

    6 trucks.

    7 Q. So you were referring to the Muslims whom you

    8 were seeing around at that time?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. On that day, did you see any houses burning?

    11 A. On that day, we only noticed that there was

    12 one fire in the lower part of the village, and later we

    13 learned that Sudzuka's house had burned down, and a

    14 barn, and Drago Josipovic's barn.

    15 Q. Did you notice that the Muslim population was

    16 leaving the village?

    17 A. Yes, behind Mirko's house, in a forest, I

    18 noticed a man and a woman leading a cow and going in

    19 the direction of upper Ahmici. At that time, Mirko,

    20 Dragan Vidovic -- I think Zoran was also with us -- and

    21 I went to this depression, and there was like a cluster

    22 of trees there, and we heard some voices around the

    23 house of Rudo Vidovic. His house was unfinished at the

    24 time.

    25 From this cluster of trees, I crawled over to



  39. 1 see who it was. In this shelter, I saw Goga Vidovic,

    2 her mother, and I could also overhear some male

    3 voices. I spent there about a minute or two, and then

    4 I heard Goga addressing one of them by name. I

    5 realised that they were Muslims.

    6 Q. Were they hiding in this shelter?

    7 A. Yes, they were in the shelter, all of them.

    8 Down in this basement area.

    9 Q. Could you please show on these aerial

    10 photographs where Rudo Vidovic's unfinished house was?

    11 A. This should be around here. We were here

    12 (Indicating). It is like an island. You see there's,

    13 like, all forest around. And see, this is the

    14 depression (Indicating). Then we went -- from there I

    15 went over to the house and then went back.

    16 Q. Did Gordana Vidovic talk to these people in a

    17 normal voice, like, the voices were not agitated or

    18 anything?

    19 A. Yes. Yes, she talked to them in a normal

    20 voice.

    21 Q. You may be seated again.

    22 So you said that you heard shooting going on

    23 until the afternoon, and then what happened after the

    24 shooting stopped?

    25 A. After the shooting stopped, we spent the rest



  40. 1 of the day -- I believe we also spent that whole night

    2 at Mirko Sakic's house, in a shed where the wood was

    3 kept. The next day and the following days I continued

    4 to work on the market, while the Muslims who had worked

    5 in the market did not show up for three or four days.

    6 Q. Which Muslims are you referring to?

    7 A. Only to the Muslims from Ahmici. For

    8 instance, Alaga Ahmic, I can take him for example,

    9 because he worked with me at the marketplace. And some

    10 others.

    11 Q. Did all Muslims flee the village on the

    12 20th? If you know.

    13 A. From my part of the village, nobody left,

    14 including (redacted) with his family, or Miralem

    15 Strmonja, or (redacted). Only three or four sons,

    16 one of them was quite young, so he stayed behind; only

    17 those three or four went to Pirici, to Zeir's place,

    18 because they were close with each other, and they would

    19 occasionally spend a night there. So -- but none

    20 others left.

    21 Q. So you are saying that you kept -- you saw

    22 your neighbours on the following days?

    23 A. Yes. I saw them on the following days.

    24 Q. Do you know whether Muslims fled from other

    25 parts of the village?



  41. 1 A. I don't know that. I saw some going from the

    2 lower part of the village to the upper part of the

    3 village, but I don't know where, and I didn't see

    4 anybody else leaving.

    5 Q. Do you know whether any of the Muslims asked

    6 that -- in other words, I'm just asking whether the

    7 Croats asked the Muslims to turn in weapons.

    8 A. I know that Croats had asked that some four

    9 rifles be returned to them which had been taken away

    10 from them at the barricade near the cemetery. And

    11 other than that, I don't know of any other cases.

    12 Q. Do you know who asked this?

    13 A. I don't know.

    14 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: I would just like that

    15 some of these positions be marked on the aerial

    16 photographs. I think we will be -- we will be coming

    17 to that in the future testimony, so if I may ask the

    18 usher's assistance with that.

    19 THE REGISTRAR: Document D82/2.

    20 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:

    21 Q. Mr. Vidovic, will you please mark -- if you

    22 can mark your own house with a circle. Where is your

    23 house located?

    24 A. (Marks)

    25 Q. Will you now please mark the house of Mirko,



  42. 1 that is Niko Sakic's house?

    2 A. (Marks)

    3 Q. Will you please shade the path you took from

    4 your house to Niko Sakic's house?

    5 A. (Marks)

    6 Q. And now from Niko Sakic's house could you

    7 show which road you take to go to the Kupreskic

    8 houses?

    9 A. Shall I mark it?

    10 Q. Yes. Use your magic marker to draw the

    11 line.

    12 A. (Marks)

    13 Q. Is this a path of some sort?

    14 A. Yes, it's a footpath. There's no road

    15 there. From Nicko's house on there's no road.

    16 Q. Now, please mark the position -- the location

    17 where you were on the 20th. What was that location

    18 where you said that you arrived at Niko Sakic's house

    19 and then went down into that depression?

    20 A. This is Niko's house (marks). This is when I

    21 helped Zoran and Mirjans' -- the family. Then I backed

    22 up this way to Niko's house, and I remained there and

    23 they continued on.

    24 Q. Where were you on that day? Where did you --

    25 A. Behind Niko's house to the edge of this



  43. 1 little fort, and then you can call this an island and I

    2 was there, this cluster of trees (indicating)

    3 Q. Does this depression have some kind of a

    4 natural cover?

    5 A. Yes, there is a forest and there is this

    6 depression which is fairly deep, so you couldn't see

    7 from it until you reached the very edge of it.

    8 Q. Will you also please show where this

    9 barricade was located by the cemetery and on that road

    10 so that we can mark that too?

    11 A. It was right here, at the beginning of this

    12 curve, and then this is where the trenches were dug

    13 (marks), and at this intersection to the -- of the road

    14 to Ahmici (marks).

    15 Q. So one barricade by the cemetery and the

    16 other one where -- at the turn-off. And this trench

    17 which you marked, did you see that trench later on?

    18 A. Yes. I saw that trenches had been dug up,

    19 and I later learned that that is where the fighting

    20 took place, where Halid Pezer and Andjelko Vidovic were

    21 killed. It is near this road.

    22 Q. Very well. Thank you.

    23 I think we can take a break right now and

    24 then move to the second part of the testimony after the

    25 break so that we keep it in one continuous whole.



  44. 1 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. So we'll take a

    2 break.

    3 --- Recess taken at 10.25 a.m.

    4 --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

    5 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Thank you,

    6 Mr. President.

    7 Q. Therefore, after that first conflict, what

    8 were the relations like between the Muslims and Croats

    9 in the village? Did you see any problems in that

    10 regard?

    11 A. After the first conflict the Croatian-Muslim

    12 relations became more tense, and there was a certain

    13 amount of mistrust, the one towards the others.

    14 The village guards were separated. There

    15 were separate Croat-Muslim guards and Muslim village

    16 guards, and each separate group would stand guard in

    17 front of their own houses. The people working with me

    18 at the market I felt of a certain amount of distrust

    19 towards me. You couldn't do any work together with

    20 them as you could before the conflict.

    21 Q. Were there any incidents of any kind in the

    22 village?

    23 A. (No audible response)

    24 Q. In your part of the village, were there any

    25 problems with the Croats and the Muslims?



  45. 1 A. In my part of the village there were no

    2 problems with the Croats and the Muslims either before

    3 or after that first conflict.

    4 Q. Did you notice that barricades were being set

    5 up in the village, facing the Muslim section of the

    6 village?

    7 A. On one particular evening after the first

    8 conflict, some 30 days later, one of my friends, Mirko

    9 Grgic, had a Mercedes motor car, and he had had

    10 something to drink and I got in the car with him, it

    11 was evening, around 21.30 hours, when he, with his car,

    12 turned into Ahmici. I tried to convince him not to go

    13 but he kept driving on, and he turned off by Vlatko

    14 Kupreskic's house, moving towards Gornji or Upper

    15 Ahmici.

    16 Just up above Vlatko Kupreskic's house there

    17 was a Muslim barricade, and two what we call goat

    18 devices were set up and a log across them, and there

    19 were mines, and these trestles were put up and they

    20 stopped us and our car. This was right by the house of

    21 Sead Ahmic and his father Zuhdija.

    22 At the barricade was Pezer Sesro, Pezer

    23 Ibrisim.

    24 Q. Were the people at the barricades armed?

    25 A. Yes, they were armed. Zuhdija Ahmic came up



  46. 1 to Mirko on his side, he opened the window, and he told

    2 him to go back, that he couldn't go on. Mirko went

    3 back for several metres, turned the car around and we

    4 went back the way we came.

    5 I criticized him for the whole thing, because

    6 in the evening hours, at that time, it wasn't a good

    7 idea to go into other sections of the village which

    8 were inhabited either by Muslims or by any other ethnic

    9 groups.

    10 Q. Were you frightened on the occasion?

    11 A. Well, I was frightened on the occasion and

    12 said that I would never enter a car with him again, and

    13 I told him a couple of other things to boot, so that I

    14 didn't go anywhere with him any more, especially not at

    15 night-time.

    16 Q. On the 15th of April, 1993, that is to say,

    17 one day before the conflict broke out in Vitez, where

    18 were you and what were you doing?

    19 A. On that day I went to work in the marketplace

    20 as I usually do and -- at the kiosk in Gornji Vitez,

    21 and at the market I saw a lot of Muslims. My friends

    22 were there too, Mirko Grgic, Anto Vrnada. I saw my

    23 brother there as well.

    24 Q. What's your brother's name?

    25 A. Zoran Vidovic. He was in the PZO but he was



  47. 1 in civilian clothes on that day, and he was in the

    2 Lovac cafe with the boys from the marketplace who

    3 worked there. He was with Slovenka and Ljilja and they

    4 were sitting down at the same table together.

    5 Q. You said your brother was a member of the

    6 PZO. That is air defence; is that right?

    7 A. Yes. That's right.

    8 Q. Was this PZO part of the HVO?

    9 A. No. The then PZO was a mixed defence corps.

    10 There were Muslims and Croats there, and anti-aircraft

    11 guns because of the Serbian planes that had previously

    12 been bombing Busovaca and the factory in Vitez.

    13 Q. At that time they were also guarding the SPS,

    14 were they not?

    15 A. Yes, they were.

    16 Q. Did your brother give you any information, as

    17 he was connected through the PZO with the HVO, that

    18 something could take part -- place?

    19 A. My brother conveyed nothing to me on that

    20 day. He gave me no information whatsoever, and I don't

    21 think he knew anything either, because he stayed there

    22 that day drinking, and then he went off to Stari Vitez

    23 to the fire brigade building there where he spent the

    24 night in a Muslim house. And I don't know -- never

    25 knew anything more about him and I don't to the present



  48. 1 day.

    2 Q. Do you know who took your brother away from

    3 that Muslim house?

    4 A. I know that Hodzic Safeta Sijo, Hodzic

    5 Safeta, his brother-in-law was living in the house with

    6 him, I don't know his exact name, Abdic Bugar, and his

    7 nickname was Cicko, and two other policemen, and I

    8 learnt this later on, that they were -- their native

    9 village was Preocica, and they had been working in that

    10 part of Vitez when the command was in the fire brigade

    11 building there.

    12 Q. The individuals that took your brother away,

    13 were they members of the military police of the BH

    14 army?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. Did you find his body later?

    17 A. No.

    18 Q. Very well then. So you went home and you had

    19 no information?

    20 A. I had no information. I stayed at home with

    21 my family, I went to bed and went to sleep, and in the

    22 morning at around 4.00 a.m. I was woken up by Slavko

    23 Papic, who told me to get up so that as many people

    24 should be awakened up as possible because of the

    25 possible unrest or conflict. I didn't really



  49. 1 understand him very well but something of that sort.

    2 So I got dressed and I went out into the road

    3 in front of my house and came to my brother's house. I

    4 knocked at his door because I didn't know that my

    5 brother had stayed up there. I thought that he had

    6 come home to spend the night there.

    7 So I banged on his door; nobody opened. Then

    8 I started thinking, perhaps somebody had woken him up

    9 earlier and he left earlier because he was in the PZO,

    10 so maybe he had left earlier.

    11 So I decided to go towards Niko Sakic's

    12 house. On the road there --

    13 Q. Would you please tell us whether you met

    14 anybody on your way?

    15 A. There were other people from the village, and

    16 behind Slavko Papic's house I met Anto Vidovic Satko

    17 and Ivica Vidovic, his brother. We talked a little bit

    18 and we went to Niko Vidovic's house together, which was

    19 where the shelter was, and they stayed out in the road

    20 and I went up to Niko Sakic's house.

    21 Q. Will you show us on the large map which way

    22 you went when you met Ivo Vidovic? Which way were you

    23 going when you met Vidovic and Satko? Where were they?

    24 A. This is where I met Anto Vidovic Satko and

    25 Ivica Vidovic, and we were moving towards this house



  50. 1 here, that is Niko Vidovic's house and their uncle's

    2 house, and they stayed there whereas I went on towards

    3 Niko Sakic's house (indicating).

    4 Q. Did you have any weapons with you?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. Did you have an uniform?

    7 A. No. All I had was a sort of multicoloured

    8 jacket, just the top part.

    9 Q. When Slavko Papic woke you up and told you to

    10 go out, that there could be problems, did he tell you

    11 exactly what was going to happen, and where you should

    12 go and what you should do?

    13 A. No. All he did was to wake me up. He told

    14 me from the window; I stayed in the house. I didn't

    15 meet him any more when I left the house. Quite simply,

    16 I went towards Sakic's house instinctively, because in

    17 the first conflict that's where we went, because there

    18 was a sort of -- it was a sort of shelter. There was a

    19 shelter by Niko Sakic's house.

    20 Q. So you went to Niko Sakic's house; is that

    21 right?

    22 A. Yes. This is where the house is

    23 (indicating).

    24 Q. Were there any people there already when you

    25 turned up?



  51. 1 A. I met Pero Jelic there, Miro Vidovic was

    2 there already, Miro Pudja, Dragan Samija, and the other

    3 inhabitants came as well, Mirko Grgic, Anto Branada,

    4 because his house is near Sakic's house. Those are the

    5 houses there (indicating). So we sort of lost

    6 ourselves en route, because nobody knew anything.

    7 Nobody could give us the proper information.

    8 Q. And the people you mentioned were people from

    9 the surrounding houses, were they not?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. How long did you stay there?

    12 A. I stayed there until the morning.

    13 Q. Apart from the people that you have just

    14 enumerated, the neighbours you mentioned a moment ago,

    15 did you see anybody else?

    16 A. About 5.00, from the direction of Sutrine

    17 Kuce and the Kupreskic houses, Zoran, his wife, his

    18 children, Mirjan with his wife and their children

    19 turned up, and Mirjan's mother-in-law, and they stopped

    20 by Mirko and me, and they stopped by Mirko's house. I

    21 thought they would be going to my house, but Zoran,

    22 with his wife, went to my house with his wife and

    23 children. And his people stayed behind at my house,

    24 whereas Mirjan and his children and his wife, they were

    25 in the shelter right next to my own house. That is the



  52. 1 house here, right across from my house.

    2 Q. Whose house is that?

    3 A. That is Jozo Bredsa's (phoen) house, and his

    4 son-in-law. He's a Macedonian, I think. The man never

    5 lived there. He lived abroad somewhere.

    6 Q. Thank you. You may sit down.

    7 So you saw them taking away their families,

    8 taking them towards Zume; is that right?

    9 A. Yes. That is the route. It goes from Niko

    10 Sakic's house towards my own house.

    11 After their departure, a group of about 30

    12 well-armed individuals came up. They were masked.

    13 They had something black on their faces. It was still

    14 morning, and rather dark; it wasn't clearly visible,

    15 but they had some paint over their faces and were

    16 wearing black uniforms. They had camouflage uniforms

    17 as well.

    18 Q. Continue, please.

    19 A. They were armed with automatic rifles, and I

    20 saw that they were very well armed, in fact.

    21 Q. What weapons did they have?

    22 A. They had automatic rifles. I think one of

    23 them had a Heckler; that is a rifle with a rather long

    24 barrel. And they also had RPGs on their backs; once

    25 again, long barrels, wide barrels. And they were



  53. 1 wearing the belts for ammunition for automatic rifles.

    2 Q. Just one moment, please. Would you tell us

    3 what RPGs are?

    4 A. They are hand-propelled rocket launchers.

    5 Q. And the wraps you mentioned, what are they?

    6 A. They are sort of bandoleers, with ammunition

    7 for automatic rifles. In fact they are metal boxes,

    8 metal boxes with the ammunition inside, and these can

    9 be replaced.

    10 Q. Where were they carrying these wraps?

    11 A. They carried them in front. They were sort

    12 of hung round their necks. And they were also

    13 camouflage, like the uniforms themselves, the same

    14 colour -- they matched the uniforms.

    15 Q. Did they have anything on their heads?

    16 A. They had helmets, and some sort of black

    17 caps.

    18 Q. Did you notice anything else on them?

    19 A. They had white belts. I saw a couple of

    20 rifle holders. They were -- and they had light blue

    21 bands on their shoulders, sort of like some sort of

    22 epaulet. They all had these light blue bands. Passing

    23 by us, some of them asked for a match, matches. I'm

    24 not a smoker, so I wasn't able to supply them with any

    25 matches. I recognised Mirjan Santic as they passed by



  54. 1 us, who did not have black on, black paint on his face,

    2 but he just had a scarf around his neck.

    3 Q. How do you know Mirjan Santic?

    4 A. Well, I've known Mirjan for a long time,

    5 because Mirjan lives in the village of Santici; he

    6 lives in the part of the village where Zoran and

    7 Mirjan's sister lives, in the centre of Santici.

    8 Q. So that means that he is a native of Santici,

    9 and he also resides in Santici; is that correct?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. Can his house be seen on the map?

    12 A. I don't think so. Because it's in the lower

    13 half. It's a newly constructed house, and his parents'

    14 house is above his, and you can't even see their house

    15 on the map.

    16 Q. Did you see what unit they belonged to?

    17 A. I saw on several of them the insignia of the

    18 military police.

    19 Q. You said that you had seen the white belts?

    20 A. Yes, I saw white belts.

    21 Q. What did you conclude from that fact?

    22 A. I concluded that it was a military police

    23 unit. I knew Mirjan from earlier on, and I knew that

    24 he was a member of the military police, and therefore I

    25 concluded that it was a military police unit.



  55. 1 Q. How do you -- did you feel when you saw them?

    2 A. Well, we were frightened, all of us, because

    3 suddenly out of the dark, a lot of well-armed

    4 individuals confronted us. They were wearing black;

    5 they looked like something out of a ninja film. And we

    6 were petrified when we saw them. Mirko was standing

    7 beside me, and we just looked at each other, and we

    8 didn't know what to say. I was quite lost at that

    9 moment.

    10 Q. Can you show us the direction from which they

    11 came to Niko Sakic's house? What direction?

    12 A. Do you want me to point on the map, over

    13 there, the big map, or on the ELMO?

    14 Q. Please point to the location on the big map.

    15 A. (Indicating) They appeared from this

    16 direction, going towards Niko Sakic's house. It is the

    17 same route that I took, and which Zoran and Mirjan had

    18 taken away their wives and children. They went along

    19 the same route.

    20 Q. Where did this group of -- where was this

    21 group of people going?

    22 A. The group of people went towards this valley,

    23 and we lost sight of them. They went towards the

    24 Kupreskic houses.

    25 Q. Could you hear any shooting at that time, or



  56. 1 was there nothing to be heard yet?

    2 A. There was no shooting to be heard at that

    3 precise moment. A little later, when they had left,

    4 shooting was heard --

    5 Q. Just one moment, please; let me ask you

    6 something else. When they left, did you see the

    7 Kupreskics anywhere around?

    8 A. Well, when they left, several minutes after

    9 them, Zoran and Mirjan turned up from this direction

    10 and they went with Mirko Sakic and Dragan Vidovic,

    11 Dragan Samija. They went off to this valley here,

    12 following them; they went off after them.

    13 Several minutes later -- and I stayed here

    14 waiting for Mirko Grgic and Anto to turn up, and Zoran

    15 Kupreskic came once again. And he had Didaks -- two

    16 wives and four children who had been put up in the

    17 house of Ivica's brother. They didn't want to leave

    18 right away. They only left later, and Zoran went with

    19 them in this direction. And I, together with Anto

    20 Vrnada, Mirko Grgic, and Miro Pudja, as well as Miro

    21 Samija, we went to Bijela Zemlja, up here, and we kept

    22 guard over the shelter of Niko Vidovic by Niko Sakic's

    23 house below Bijela Zemlja.

    24 Q. You said that Mirko Sakic and Mirjan

    25 Kupreskic -- and who else did you mention? That they



  57. 1 went to the valley, to the depression there. Who else

    2 was with them?

    3 A. Dragan Samija was with them. Dragan Vidovic.

    4 Q. Which Dragan Vidovic is that?

    5 A. Dragance, the one that woke me up. Niko's

    6 Dragan. And some other young men.

    7 Q. Did you see where they put up?

    8 A. Well, they were located below this forest in

    9 a depression there, a valley. And you can't see out of

    10 that depression. You can't -- because it's surrounded

    11 by forest, so it's a sort of natural depression

    12 protected on all three sides.

    13 Q. Is that the depression where you were in the

    14 first conflict?

    15 A. No, that's not that valley or depression.

    16 That was another one. It went straight on from Niko

    17 Sakic's house. That's where we were on the occasion of

    18 the first conflict, whereas they went left now. And

    19 that depression forms a sort of triangle.

    20 Q. Is the depression situated in such a way that

    21 it represents a natural shelter?

    22 A. Yes, it is closed on all sides, and only a

    23 mortar shell could fall there. But no bullets could

    24 penetrate that area.

    25 Q. Thank you very much. You may sit down again



  58. 1 now.

    2 When Zoran left with the refugees on the

    3 second occasion --

    4 A. Yes?

    5 Q. -- at that time, that is to say, when did you

    6 hear the first bout of shooting?

    7 A. The first shooting could be heard before

    8 Zoran passed by me with the Didak people from the lower

    9 part of the village, around the mosque, in the lower

    10 section. Then there was shooting from several

    11 directions, and you couldn't tell where the shooting

    12 was coming from. There were bullets flying by from all

    13 directions.

    14 Q. Where could shooting -- in what other parts

    15 could the shooting be heard?

    16 A. There was shooting by the Kupreskic houses

    17 themselves, in the lower part of the village. Some

    18 of it was a little further off around the cemetery, the

    19 lower part of the village, and around the Kupreskic

    20 houses, in the central part of Ahmici, thereabouts.

    21 Q. Would you indicate on the map the position

    22 where you saw Mirjan, and Vidovic, and Sakic, and where

    23 you yourself were. Would you mark that in on the map,

    24 please.

    25 A. On this same map, you mean?



  59. 1 Q. No, another one. We're going to hand you

    2 another map, so that we don't get things mixed up.

    3 THE REGISTRAR: D83/2.

    4 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC:

    5 Q. By using a Magic Marker, will you please put

    6 a letter "A" at the spot where you saw that Mirjan

    7 Kupreskic, and Vidovic, and Sakic were positioning

    8 themselves. I cannot see it very well. What if you

    9 use a black marker?

    10 A. Perhaps another colour, yes. (Marks).

    11 Q. So this is the area where there's no forest?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. So when you said that you went to this area

    14 which you called Bijela Zemlja, can you mark that area,

    15 please.

    16 A. (Marks).

    17 Q. Could you please mark it with the letter "B".

    18 Was that area also somehow protected?

    19 A. That area was somehow protected, because

    20 again there was -- the ground was settling down,

    21 because there used to be a mine in there; then the mine

    22 was abandoned, and then it was starting to cave in, and

    23 then sort of these depressions were formed in this

    24 manner.

    25 Q. Could you please again circle the house of



  60. 1 Niko Sakic, and mark it with the number "1".

    2 A. (Marks).

    3 Q. Do you know whether people came to take

    4 shelter in Niko Sakic's house?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. Do you know what people these were, from

    7 which area they came?

    8 A. These were people, men, women, children, who

    9 lived around the Sakic houses; that is, the Grgic

    10 families and the others took shelter in Niko Vidovic's

    11 house.

    12 Q. Will you please mark Niko Vidovic's house

    13 which was also used as shelter. And mark it with

    14 number "2" please.

    15 A. (Marks).

    16 Q. So your house was also used by some people to

    17 shelter?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. Who was in your house?

    20 A. In my house there were Mirja Kupreskic,

    21 Zoran's wife, with her children; later on, the two

    22 Didak women with four children also came there, my

    23 wife, one of my children, Jasna Safradin and her child,

    24 Kristina. And when I came home around 7.30, I saw

    25 Mirjan's wife as well. She was working around the



  61. 1 stove. I guess she was preparing food for children. I

    2 didn't stay long, five or ten minutes, and then went

    3 back.

    4 Q. Will you please mark your house so that we

    5 see where else the civilians were located. And mark it

    6 with number "3"?

    7 A. (Marks).

    8 Q. Will you also mark the house of Jozo Vrebac;

    9 that is, his son-in-law. And mark it with number "4"

    10 please.

    11 A. (Marks).

    12 Q. Do you know whether these local residents,

    13 that is, women and children, were also sheltering in

    14 that house?

    15 A. Yes, there were a number of people in that

    16 house, because the lower part of the house was dug into

    17 the ground. Also there was more space than in my

    18 house. So that there were many more women and children

    19 there than at my place.

    20 Q. In these four houses, were mostly women and

    21 children from that area, that is, from Ahmici, Santici

    22 and Pirici accommodated?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. The position which you chose, you said that

    25 it was a natural -- some kind of -- it was some kind of



  62. 1 a depression due to the caving in, so it was a natural

    2 shelter?

    3 A. Yes, and above us we had dense oak forest.

    4 Q. Why did you go there? Did somebody tell you

    5 to go to that place?

    6 A. No, nobody told me to go there. We simply

    7 went there up from those shelters, so the four or five

    8 of us, Mirjan, Zoran, were there to protect a potential

    9 advance of the Muslim forces towards the shelters.

    10 Q. So during the day, did you go over to them?

    11 A. I went over there a couple of times, to where

    12 they had taken shelter in that depression, and so I saw

    13 them all there. I talked to them. There was

    14 shooting. There's a natural path around the area where

    15 the old mine was, to where they were. You just went

    16 through the thicket and you reached them. The distance

    17 between myself and them was somewhere between 70 and

    18 100 metres, as the crow flies.

    19 Q. When you went there, who did you find there?

    20 A. I saw Mirjan Kupreskic, Zoran Kupreskic,

    21 Mirko Sakic, Dragan Vidovic, and Dragan Samija.

    22 Q. Did you see whether they were shooting?

    23 A. No, they were not shooting because you

    24 couldn't even shoot from that position anywhere else

    25 because it is a depression. You can only shoot up in



  63. 1 the air.

    2 Q. Did you see what happened when you went over

    3 to them? Did you see what was going on in the other

    4 parts of the village?

    5 A. In Ahmici you could still hear intense

    6 shooting. You could see that houses were on fire. I

    7 couldn't determine the exact positions, because they

    8 were burning in the area of the Kupreskic houses and

    9 then also in the lower sections of Ahmici.

    10 Q. How did you see -- how did you recognise that

    11 they were burning?

    12 A. I saw the smoke, I heard crackling sounds,

    13 and you see light and a large plume of smoke.

    14 Q. In this part of the village where you were

    15 between those two depressions, you also said that you

    16 went back home; right?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. On the way there and in the area where you

    19 were moving, was there fighting going on there?

    20 A. No. When I went home at 7.30, around that

    21 time, as I was passing by Niko Vidovic's shelter, on

    22 the road I met (redacted), his son-in-law Miralem

    23 Strmonja, Anto Vidovic Satko, all four of them had

    24 rifles and they were standing in the road.

    25 Q. The two persons you just mentioned, Ramo



  64. 1 Bilic and Miralem Strmonja, were they Muslims or

    2 Croats?

    3 A. They were Muslims. Their house is directly

    4 across from the shelter of Niko Vidovic. And when I

    5 reached them, they were also -- they had also just

    6 arrived. Ivica and Anto were with them, and we said to

    7 them, "Don't shoot. We're not going to shoot either."

    8 So we -- they said, "So, neighbours, what is going

    9 on?" And they didn't know either.

    10 So Anto Vidovic said to the other two to move

    11 their women and children to the shelter where our women

    12 and children were, that is in Niko Vidovic's house. So

    13 we talked a little bit and I went on, continued to my

    14 house.

    15 On the way back I did not see them in the

    16 road. I met Anto and he said that they were already in

    17 the shelter, together with the women and children, that

    18 even Zijad Bilic, Ramo's brother who was not on the

    19 road at that time, that he and his wife and children

    20 were also -- that they had also taken shelter in that

    21 shelter.

    22 Q. And he was a Muslim?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. And these people were all accommodated in

    25 this Croatian house?



  65. 1 A. Yes, along with all the other Croatian women

    2 and children who were there.

    3 Q. Did anything happen to those people on that

    4 day or did Croats protect them?

    5 A. That day they were protected by local

    6 Croatian residents and nothing bad happened to them. I

    7 later learned, I didn't see this, that they were taken

    8 to the railroad station where there were other Muslim

    9 families and that they were transferred to Zenica.

    10 Q. And they all survived?

    11 A. Yes, they all survived, but only Zijad Bilic,

    12 Ramo's brother, was killed, I learned later, during the

    13 subsequent fighting at Buhine Kuce.

    14 Q. So he was killed at Buhine Kuce. That was in

    15 January of '94; is that correct?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. Did something happen on that day in that part

    18 of the village where you stayed, or was this a

    19 situation the entire day?

    20 A. This was the situation throughout the day.

    21 We went back and forth trying to get some information.

    22 We couldn't get any information. Nobody from outside

    23 provided any information, so we just stayed in that

    24 area. Some of us went to their homes to get some food

    25 and would come back.



  66. 1 Q. On that first day, until what time could you

    2 hear shooting?

    3 A. On that first day it -- the shooting went on

    4 until about the end of the day, till the dusk, and then

    5 it stopped and it resumed the next morning.

    6 Q. The second day, where did you go?

    7 A. On the second day I remained in that same

    8 area, and on that day I again went several times to

    9 Sakic's, and Kupreskic's, and Grgic's and Dragan

    10 Vidovic's. We commented but not having any real

    11 information, we just realised that there was some

    12 fierce fighting going on.

    13 Q. Did you hear the shooting the second day

    14 also?

    15 A. Yes. We could also hear shooting, but it had

    16 already moved to the middle Ahmici, so you can't hear

    17 it as much in the lower part of the village.

    18 Q. Was there shooting -- could the shooting be

    19 heard from the Upper Ahmici?

    20 A. Yes, shooting could be heard from the Upper

    21 Ahmici, but would I say from the other side near Krc.

    22 There is an area around Nadoici going this way that is

    23 called Krc, and some bullets even flew in our

    24 direction. The distance between there was just about

    25 four or five hundred metres.



  67. 1 Q. Did something happen to civilians, that is

    2 the women and children who were in the shelters on that

    3 second day? Did you have any -- do you know whether

    4 they were moved to another shelter or somewhere?

    5 A. I know that some of them moved. I don't know

    6 who went from Niko Sakic's basement more towards Niko

    7 Vidovic's house, but I don't know who was involved

    8 there. I wasn't there.

    9 Q. Do you know that women and children went to

    10 Rovna?

    11 A. No, I did not know that. Only later when I

    12 came home I found my wife and child, Zoran's wife and

    13 children, and they told me that somebody had said that

    14 between Mahala and Krtina there is a creek there at

    15 Mahala, and this area is part of Santici, that a group

    16 of Muslims had passed by and that they should take

    17 shelter, and that the majority of residents went to

    18 Rovna, but my wife and Zoran's wife and children

    19 remained in the house.

    20 Q. The third day what happened?

    21 A. On the third day three or four men came.

    22 They were wearing uniforms. They didn't have any --

    23 they didn't wear any paint or anything, but I didn't

    24 know them. I know that they were military policemen.

    25 I concluded that from their uniforms and insignia. And



  68. 1 it would be -- they told us to follow us -- to follow

    2 them to Pirici, which we did, very reluctantly, because

    3 from the area where we were there was an open area, and

    4 there were some natural shelters, little depressions,

    5 and we took shelter there. We sort of followed them

    6 along.

    7 At about the area where Gavro Vidovic's

    8 house, they stopped. We came and from -- downhill from

    9 Gavro -- Barin Gaj. There was a lot of shooting, so we

    10 were just looking for some kind of a shelter. There

    11 was like a hedge and there was a -- was a natural

    12 depression. It was seven or eight metres deep. It's

    13 called Usijak. We again took shelter there

    14 until the dusk came.

    15 Just around dusk, about 15 civilians arrived

    16 with two or three rifles, poorly dressed. I know

    17 them. They were from Vitez. They were deployed

    18 around -- along this depression, and Gavro Vidovic's

    19 house to Strmonja's house and further up towards the

    20 Upper Ahmici. So they just positioned us there,

    21 arranged us there, and left us there. We felt like

    22 lost children.

    23 They left --

    24 Q. Just a moment, please. This didn't -- this

    25 didn't get into the record. Were these people from



  69. 1 Vitez which you said were poorly armed and poorly

    2 dressed, did they come on their own or did somebody

    3 bring them?

    4 A. They were brought there. They were brought

    5 there by the military police.

    6 Q. And they were brought there on the third day

    7 to --

    8 A. Yes. They were brought there on the third

    9 day to this defence line in Pirici.

    10 Q. Could you just point on the map where this

    11 line of defence was deployed, the one in Pirici? Where

    12 is Barin Gaj?

    13 A. This is Barin Gaj here (indicating). This is

    14 the area of Zume (indicating). This is the natural

    15 depression that opens to the left and right, and the

    16 line of defence was put up here, and then here up to

    17 Gavro Vidovic's house, through this orchard, down there

    18 near Strmonja's house here, and here next to these

    19 fields (indicating), and then later on. I don't know

    20 how it was in the beginning.

    21 Q. So the line was really in Pirici, not in

    22 Barin Gaj?

    23 A. That is correct. In Barin Gaj there were

    24 Muslim forces.

    25 Q. And the line of defence was below Barin Gaj?



  70. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. When you were brought to Barin Gaj and

    3 deployed you there, from where were you shot at? You

    4 said there was intense fire coming from there.

    5 A. The shooting came from Barin Gaj in the

    6 direction of Gavro Vidovic's house. So it is here,

    7 from these fields here in this direction, and we were

    8 here (indicating). So from here you could cover this

    9 area and this area (indicating).

    10 Q. Very well. Thank you.

    11 If you can just mark on the map -- aerial

    12 photograph of Ahmici, if you can just draw in or mark

    13 the positions to which you were brought.

    14 A. (Marks)

    15 Q. Did the line remain like that with very few

    16 movements until the end of the war?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. How long did you stay on this line of

    19 defence?

    20 A. Between three and three and a half months.

    21 Q. You said -- sorry. Do you know, in the

    22 days -- those three days when you went back home before

    23 you were deployed at the line, whether the house of --

    24 houses of your neighbours, and I'm talking about the

    25 (redacted), were they intact or



  71. 1 were they burned down at that time?

    2 A. They were all intact. (redacted)

    3 was still intact, was never burned down.

    4 Q. (redacted)

    5 with you?

    6 A. Yes. But (redacted) subsequently

    7 burned down. I was told this by my late father, that

    8 three young men whom he did not know, wearing military

    9 police uniforms, came by and he overheard them saying

    10 they would torch the Muslim house. He said, "Don't do

    11 it, guys. You see, we have had a lot of refugees. We

    12 don't have places to put up people. We can put Croats

    13 in there, or refugees." They told him to shut up, that

    14 they would just shoot him. So he withdrew, and they

    15 proceeded to torch the lower floor of the house.

    16 And when they left he -- my father said that

    17 Jozo Vidovic, and Jozo Lovric and he tried to put out

    18 the fire so that only the lower floor burned, the fire

    19 didn't spread to the whole house.

    20 Q. So these are Croats?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. You also said that your father -- your

    23 brother disappeared in Old Vitez, that is in Mahala?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. And that in the area called Gornji Vitez or



  72. 1 Upper Vitez your sister also lived?

    2 A. Yes. My sister has a house there. She

    3 called me and miraculously the telephones were

    4 working. She called my wife and she said that I should

    5 come. I still had a kiosk up there and I had

    6 merchandise there which she said I should take. When I

    7 arrived there I saw that the yard was full. And they

    8 had a warehouse there, and I saw a large number of

    9 Muslims, men, women and children, about 30 persons were

    10 put up in that storage space.

    11 Q. How long did your sister take care of these

    12 people there?

    13 A. They stayed there for about a full month, and

    14 then some of those who wanted to go to Travnik, my

    15 brother-in-law Nikola Banic went with them to UNPROFOR

    16 and he helped transport them to Stari Travnik, whereas

    17 the two younger Muslim men, they were military fit,

    18 UNPROFOR did not agree to take them to Stari Travnik,

    19 Old Travnik. They said that they were taking women,

    20 children and the wounded.

    21 So Nikola brought them back to his house,

    22 they slaughtered a chicken, they -- they bandaged an

    23 arm and a head of one of them, they put blood on these

    24 bandages, and so they pretended they were wounded and

    25 UNPROFOR took them. And a family stayed with Nikola



  73. 1 about two and a half months. It was a husband, wife

    2 and two children.

    3 Q. Do you know the names of these families,

    4 because these were two families.

    5 A. Yes, one of them were called Alihodza. If I

    6 can just --

    7 Q. Was it Topcic?

    8 A. Yes, Topcic. They were undertakers locally.

    9 So there were two families, in fact. And also Blaz had

    10 a shelter and another 20 or 30 Muslims were there.

    11 Q. Just one more detail. Do you remember Zoran

    12 Vidovic's wedding in Kruscica?

    13 A. I do. I remember Zoran Vidovic's wedding.

    14 He went -- he was from Kruscica but his wedding took

    15 place at the Lovac hotel, and it is -- the byroad

    16 doesn't go through Vitez, but is a byroad by the petrol

    17 pump belonging to Kraocic.

    18 Q. Tell us when the wedding took place?

    19 A. The wedding took place sometime in December

    20 1992, between the first and second conflict.

    21 Q. Do you remember who played and sang at the

    22 wedding?

    23 A. Nedzad Barucija sang.

    24 Q. And what is Nedzad Barucija?

    25 A. He is a Muslim. He's a Muslim. Fahran



  74. 1 Ahmic, another Muslim; Mirjan Kupreskic, you know that

    2 he's a Croat; Zdravko Vrebac was a Croat; and there was

    3 another Serb who played the guitar.

    4 Q. That was the composition or group that Mirjan

    5 Kupreskic used to sing and play with frequently?

    6 A. Yes, this was a sort of band. Zoran would

    7 play with them sometimes on larger occasions.

    8 Q. Were there a lot of Muslims present at the

    9 wedding?

    10 A. There were a lot of Muslims, Croats, and

    11 Serbs, a couple of Serbs at the wedding. And those

    12 Serbs still live in Vitez.

    13 Q. What happened to Zoran Vidovic?

    14 A. Zoran Vidovic was killed in his family

    15 house. He died in his family house. On the first day,

    16 a sniper hit him through the window. And all his

    17 people had moved and are now in Croatia, somewhere near

    18 Zagreb.

    19 Q. That means that he was killed in the house in

    20 Kruscica?

    21 A. Yes, but the lower road towards Kruscica.

    22 There are two roads leading into Kruscica. It was the

    23 lower road that his house was situated on.

    24 Q. I am now going to let you look at some data

    25 pertaining to Zoran Vidovic to tell me if the data is



  75. 1 correct.

    2 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Would the usher hand

    3 the document round, please.

    4 Q. Your brother is also Zoran Vidovic, isn't he?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. Do you have a death certificate for your

    7 brother?

    8 A. No, but I can have it issued -- I can get it,

    9 because I know that it exists.

    10 Q. Here it states that it is Zoran Vidovic,

    11 killed on the 16th of April, 1993, in Kruscica.

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. His father was Ivica, and he was born in

    14 1970.

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. When was your brother born?

    17 A. On the 4th of November, 1963. And the father

    18 is Anto.

    19 Q. Very well. Thank you very much.

    20 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: I have completed my

    21 examination of the witness. And I should like these

    22 exhibits to be tendered into evidence, and I don't have

    23 any numbers for the exhibits.

    24 THE REGISTRAR: The numbers are D82/2 to

    25 D84/2.



  76. 1 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Any objection?

    2 All right. They are admitted into evidence;

    3 thank you.

    4 Counsel Radovic? No?

    5 And any cross-examination by other counsel?

    6 Mr. Pavkovic, may I ask you whether any other Defence

    7 counsel --

    8 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, I have no

    9 questions.

    10 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. So we can then

    11 move to the Prosecution: Mr. Blaxill?

    12 MR. BLAXILL: Thank you, Mr. President, Your

    13 Honours.

    14 Cross-examined by Mr. Blaxill:

    15 MR. BLAXILL: Mr. Vidovic, good afternoon to

    16 you. My name is Michael Blaxill. I am one of the

    17 prosecutors here working on this particular case. I do

    18 have a few questions I would like to put to you as a

    19 result of your testimony here this morning.

    20 Q. Firstly I would say that you stated you

    21 served in the conflict against the Serbs on two

    22 occasions in the front lines for the HVO. When you

    23 completed those periods of duty, did you remain in the

    24 reserve of the HVO, even if you were not in the active

    25 component?



  77. 1 A. When I completed the seven-day shift on both

    2 the first and the second occasion, up at the front line

    3 towards the Serbs, I was not in any kind of unit after

    4 that. I had no weapons, I had no duties, no

    5 assignments, nothing. So the clothing that I wore on

    6 the occasion I returned because it was borrowed, and I

    7 did likewise with the weapons.

    8 Q. Had you in fact been a volunteer for those

    9 two seven-day periods?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. When you returned back home after the second

    12 one, did they say anything to you about whether you

    13 could or should volunteer again, or would they call

    14 upon you in the future? Were you left with any kind of

    15 parting instructions?

    16 A. No.

    17 Q. Were you aware of any mechanism that the HVO

    18 had to contact people and call them up to go and serve

    19 in the ongoing conflict?

    20 A. No.

    21 Q. So you returned to, I should say, your normal

    22 work; and in fact in the earlier stages of 1992, you

    23 did not join the village guard. Is that right?

    24 A. That's right.

    25 Q. And when, about -- could you refresh my



  78. 1 memory: When, about, was it that you did join up with

    2 the village guards to assist in that area?

    3 A. After the fall of Jajce, when I got some

    4 weapons.

    5 Q. And from that point forward, with your own

    6 weapon -- which I believe was an M-48 rifle; is that

    7 correct?

    8 A. Yes, that's right.

    9 Q. You then joined in with the local village

    10 guard; is that so?

    11 A. Yes. I joined them on several -- just

    12 several occasions.

    13 Q. On those occasions were they still

    14 functioning as a joint guard between the Muslim and the

    15 Croat members of the village community?

    16 A. No.

    17 Q. They had already separated into Croat and

    18 Muslim guards in their own parts of the village? Is

    19 that correct, then?

    20 A. Yes. That's correct.

    21 Q. It's true to say, is it not, sir, that there

    22 were no incidents of tension or difficulty, were there,

    23 between yourselves, as a Croat ethnic village guard,

    24 and your Muslim ethnic village guard in the same

    25 village?



  79. 1 A. In this part of the village where I lived,

    2 there weren't any problems. They stood guard around

    3 their own houses; we stood guard around our own

    4 houses.

    5 Q. Were you aware of any kind of mechanism to

    6 communicate with other village guards or other --

    7 perhaps other Croat village guards in other parts of

    8 the area? Saying something had happened, did you have

    9 any lines of communication at all?

    10 A. Well, only on the next day, if, for example,

    11 I would meet somebody from another part of the village,

    12 we could talk and discuss matters. But we didn't have

    13 any lines of communication, no.

    14 Q. Was there anybody else you could contact in

    15 case something more serious happened, like a local HVO

    16 representative, or an army commander? Was there

    17 anybody like that in the neighbourhood whom you could

    18 have spoken to?

    19 A. No, there wasn't. Just the police, the

    20 police station in Vitez.

    21 Q. I see. Are you aware of a gentleman by the

    22 name of Mr. Nenad Santic?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. Is it true that Mr. Nenad Santic was in fact

    25 a local figure within the HVO?



  80. 1 A. I don't know.

    2 Q. Were you aware of the presence of Mr. Nenad

    3 Santic in -- I'm jumping forward in time, but in fact

    4 in Ahmici on the 16th of April, 1993?

    5 A. I don't know. I didn't see him.

    6 Q. Have you even ever heard that Mr. Nenad

    7 Santic was in a position to give instructions to people

    8 in the HVO locally, or in -- or even people who had

    9 been in the village guard, to carry out certain

    10 duties? Had you ever heard that?

    11 A. He could not order them. He was not any kind

    12 of commander.

    13 Q. All right. Thank you, sir.

    14 I can move on to October of 1992, where you

    15 have indicated, I believe, that things were getting --

    16 had already got difficult between Muslim and Croat

    17 inhabitants in the region. Is that a fair comment,

    18 sir?

    19 A. You're asking about the first conflict, are

    20 you?

    21 Q. I am indeed, yes.

    22 A. Between us local inhabitants and the Muslims

    23 from Ahmici, there were no conflicts at all then,

    24 either. But I had heard that the Busovaca -- some kind

    25 of Busovaca unit went to Jajce, and that the road was



  81. 1 blocked at our cemetery in Donji or lower Ahmici.

    2 Q. I believe you have indicated there were

    3 relatively few people manning this barricade; is that

    4 correct? I think you've mentioned about 15 people. Is

    5 that correct?

    6 A. I mentioned that there were about 15 people

    7 at the barricade at the entrance towards Ahmici.

    8 Whereas down there, by our cemetery, I cannot give you

    9 an exact figure, exactly how many men there were,

    10 because I saw quite a number of silhouettes in the

    11 course of the night, but I wasn't able to either count

    12 them or see them.

    13 Q. So you weren't able to see or count the

    14 numbers, and you're not prepared to assess; that's very

    15 fair. Thank you, sir.

    16 So at the entrance to Ahmici, the particular

    17 barricade you say had about 15 people?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. Is it true in fact that the conflict as it

    20 evolved, between members of the HVO and the people at

    21 the respective barricades, involved HVO forces from

    22 outside that were trying to travel through the region?

    23 Is that correct?

    24 A. Well, I know that there was a conflict

    25 between the people who wanted to pass through and the



  82. 1 people who were at the barricades at our cemetery.

    2 Q. Thank you. You also indicated, I believe,

    3 that at both barricades you say there were anti-tank

    4 mines present; is that right?

    5 A. That's right.

    6 Q. Had you in fact arrived -- or had daylight

    7 arrived when you went to observe this? Or was it still

    8 dark?

    9 A. At the entrance to Ahmici, by the house on

    10 the left-hand side, there was a light outside that was

    11 burning, that was on. And at the entrance to the

    12 cemetery, we passed right by the hedgehog devices and

    13 the barricade, so we saw that on the road too.

    14 Q. What sort of weather conditions did you have

    15 at that time? Was it misty, was it raining, was it

    16 clear?

    17 A. In the morning it was foggy, when the first

    18 conflict broke out. It was dense fog, and you couldn't

    19 see anything much.

    20 Q. You've given certain names of people whom

    21 you've identified as local Muslims manning the

    22 checkpoint or barricades. How close did you come to

    23 those particular barricades, in order to recognise

    24 these people?

    25 A. Well, I stopped at the barricade in Ahmici,



  83. 1 and I talked to those people who were standing around

    2 right by me, half a metre or a metre away from me. We

    3 were standing around in a sort of circle.

    4 Q. So, clearly, they were people you were close

    5 to, you could see, and you could describe obviously how

    6 they were armed and so forth, as you have done so.

    7 May I --

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. I believe you were asked about whether you

    10 had -- saw any insignia, but you stated you couldn't

    11 remember any insignia on the clothing worn by those

    12 people. Is that right?

    13 A. Possibly they had some insignia, but I'm

    14 not -- I didn't really see them. We knew that they had

    15 BH insignias, the Croats had.

    16 Q. Were the people that you had named in

    17 connection with being the Muslims manning, let's say,

    18 the barricade at the entrance to Ahmici, were any of

    19 those people local village guard people, that you

    20 recall?

    21 A. Well, I think they were, except (redacted),

    22 whom I knew very well. He was in the police, the

    23 Muslim police, which was stationed in Stari Vitez. But

    24 his house is there, and so he was there, too.

    25 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Blaxill, I'm sorry; would



  84. 1 this be a convenient time for a break? A 15-minute

    2 break?

    3 MR. BLAXILL: That's as convenient as any

    4 time, Your Honour. Yes, indeed.

    5 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    6 --- Recess taken at 12.15 p.m.

    7 --- On resuming at 12.30 p.m.

    8 MR. BLAXILL: Thank you, Mr. President.

    9 Q. Mr. Vidovic, if I may return, we were talking

    10 about the night of the 19th to the 20th of October of

    11 1992, and I believe that just before you went home to

    12 bed you said that you spoke to the people at the

    13 barricade, at the entrance to Ahmici, and they made

    14 reference to retribution for some seized weapons. Did

    15 you have any further idea as to what he was referring

    16 to?

    17 A. No, I didn't.

    18 Q. You went home to sleep and were awoken the

    19 following morning, or later that morning at about 04.00

    20 hours; is that correct?

    21 A. That's right.

    22 Q. And you say another hour went by and then on

    23 that foggy morning you heard a burst of fire at around

    24 5.00 from the direction of Ahmici; is that so?

    25 A. A little before 5.00.



  85. 1 Q. You then suggest that there was a broadcast

    2 heard on a loudspeaker requesting surrender of Croats

    3 and that you were "surrounded and you had no chance."

    4 You say that that is so and that happened?

    5 A. Yes, from the mosque. The loudspeakers were

    6 on the mosque in Ahmici.

    7 Q. Were those the only loudspeakers that were in

    8 the village of Ahmici, the ones on the mosque?

    9 A. I think they were, yes.

    10 Q. You decided then clearly to seek appropriate

    11 shelter for your family. If I may ask, what prompted

    12 you to go across to Mr. Mirko Sakic's house to seek

    13 such shelter when, from what you described, there were

    14 other shelters, like Mr. Vrebac's shelter, much closer

    15 to your home? Why would you go further away for that?

    16 A. Before this second conflict I had a rifle --

    17 are we talking about the first conflict?

    18 Q. First conflict, yes.

    19 A. I see. I went to Sakic's house with Dragan

    20 Vidovic. I don't know why myself why, I just went

    21 along that road because I knew that there were the

    22 village guards there as well, and perhaps to inform

    23 myself quite simply, to get some information as to the

    24 events that were going on, although I don't -- I didn't

    25 learn anything from anybody.



  86. 1 Q. I believe, unless I have made the note

    2 wrongly, you did take your family with you and have

    3 them shelter at Sakic's house, is that right, or not on

    4 that occasion?

    5 A. No, no. You took down the note wrongly.

    6 Q. I see. So where were your wife and family at

    7 that time when you went across to Sakic's house that

    8 morning?

    9 A. In my own house. They stayed in my house.

    10 Q. On that particular day you did see, did you

    11 not, Mr. Zoran Kupreskic and his family?

    12 A. That's right.

    13 Q. , in fact, they went on back towards your

    14 house from meeting you near Sakic's house?

    15 A. No, by Ivica's father's house, because

    16 Zdravko, and I, and Dragan Vidovic started off to meet

    17 them, and they had still not -- the shooting had

    18 started and they had still not come out of that part.

    19 Q. I see. So you went, if you like, forward

    20 towards the homes of the Kupreskic family and met them,

    21 and then they came back, is that right, if I'm getting

    22 the movement correctly?

    23 A. Yes, and we met at his uncle's house.

    24 Q. Thank you. Did you remain in that area

    25 basically for the rest of the day, the 20th of



  87. 1 October?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. Did you see either Mr. Zoran Kupreskic or,

    4 indeed, Mr. Mirjan Kupreskic, for that matter, during

    5 the course of the rest of that day?

    6 A. Yes. They were there by -- at Niko Sakic's

    7 house, together with the other group of locals.

    8 Q. Were they, in fact, armed and sort of kind of

    9 standing guard as one gains the impression you were

    10 doing?

    11 A. No.

    12 Q. Did they remain in the same position or that

    13 same location for the whole of the day, until the

    14 shooting stopped?

    15 A. The whole day we were around Niko Sakic's

    16 house, and then we went down to that little island in

    17 the middle of the depression down there, and I went to

    18 Mirko's newly built house because I had heard voices.

    19 Then I returned up to them -- to the island. So that

    20 was the movement. The depression -- between the

    21 depression and Niko Sakic's house, up and down and a

    22 bit along the road by Niko's house. We sat there.

    23 There was a sort of a woodshed there.

    24 Q. Were you, however, in company with one

    25 another, in their company for the whole of the day or



  88. 1 did you separate for periods of time?

    2 A. Well, from time to time I would go home, they

    3 were there, but for the most part we spent practically

    4 the whole day all together. One of us would leave from

    5 time to time but for a very brief period.

    6 Q. Would you remember any particular time of day

    7 when, say, Mr. Zoran Kupreskic left the little group of

    8 you for any period? Can you recall any times of day

    9 when that happened?

    10 A. I think that Zoran left with some of the

    11 Muslims to see about something, to Miro's. I think

    12 that was in the afternoon sometime.

    13 Q. You say that you yourself went back to your

    14 home. Can you recall the kind of time of day you did

    15 that? Was it late morning, afternoon? Can you give an

    16 hour?

    17 A. I don't know. It was sometime during the

    18 course of the morning. I can't tell you the exact

    19 time.

    20 Q. We come to the afternoon of the 20th of

    21 October, 1992, and I believe you said that somewhere

    22 around 4.00 the shooting ceased. Is that correct?

    23 A. That's correct.

    24 Q. Was there anything from where you were that

    25 you could see of the participants in the exchange of



  89. 1 shooting? Could you see any of the forces involved

    2 from where you were?

    3 A. No.

    4 Q. You have made reference to, on that day, the

    5 house of a Sudzuka being on fire, and I believe that

    6 that name is a nickname of a Mr. Mehmed Ahmic. Is that

    7 correct?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. Did you actually see that house on fire that

    10 day, or did you just see smoke or the appearance of

    11 fire from the direction of that house?

    12 A. I just saw smoke, and I thought that there

    13 was burning coming from the direction of that house but

    14 I couldn't actually see the house.

    15 Q. Does the same thing apply in respect of your

    16 reference to the barn of Mr. Drago Josipovic?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. Now, on the 21st of October, after this

    19 incident, you, in fact, went back to work, as I believe

    20 you said.

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. You said that the Muslims from the area

    23 didn't turn up to work for a few days.

    24 A. Yes, that's right.

    25 Q. Maybe you heard this subsequently, but is it



  90. 1 true that a number of Muslims, a considerable number,

    2 had actually left Ahmici on the date of the 20th when

    3 that action took place? Were you subsequently aware of

    4 that?

    5 A. I -- I got to know that they returned after a

    6 few days as well.

    7 Q. Do you know if there were any factors that

    8 particularly influenced their return, any gestures by

    9 the Croat population or authorities? Do you remember

    10 anything about that?

    11 A. I remember that in the school in Ahmici they

    12 discussed some reconciliation and an easing of

    13 tensions, because none of the local inhabitants on

    14 either side had taken part in that first conflict.

    15 Q. Do you recall anybody who, say, on the Croat

    16 side was present at those discussions at the school?

    17 A. I think Zoran Kupreskic was there and Niko

    18 Sakic. I don't know about the others.

    19 Q. Clearly from what you say, Mr. Vidovic, you

    20 were not involved in those talks, so maybe you don't

    21 have knowledge of this, but were you aware of any of

    22 the terms that were then agreed at that meeting at the

    23 school? Did this become in any way public knowledge or

    24 knowledge amongst the community?

    25 A. Well, it was rumoured that -- that some



  91. 1 rifles that had been taken which were to be returned,

    2 taken away from some Croats. I think there were four

    3 rifles, something like that.

    4 Q. That's what you recall hearing, but if I can

    5 put it this way to you, sir: The issue of returning

    6 over some weaponry by Muslims to Croats clearly was

    7 discussed at that meeting; is that correct?

    8 A. Probably. I don't know.

    9 Q. Did you, in fact, ever see any kind of

    10 document in relation to that?

    11 A. No.

    12 Q. If I may just have one moment, I would like

    13 to make an inquiry of my team regarding this particular

    14 document for a second, Your Honours.

    15 Thank you, I'm obliged for your indulgence,

    16 Your Honours. Thank you.

    17 Mr. Vidovic, are you familiar of the

    18 signature of Mr. Zoran Kupreskic?

    19 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Mr. President, I have

    20 an objection to make with regard to the conduct of the

    21 Prosecutor. He's quite obviously presenting a document

    22 that was previously rejected, not accepted as evidence,

    23 for which we do not have a source, and the witness who

    24 brought the document and the testimony was not

    25 adopted. That is to say, it was interrupted. That



  92. 1 paper which he wishes to present the witness with is

    2 not an exhibit. So as this has not been accepted as

    3 evidence, that it cannot be presented to this witness

    4 either.

    5 MR. BLAXILL: Well, Your Honours, firstly, my

    6 question about the signature was really, firstly, to

    7 ascertain the propriety of even endeavouring to put a

    8 certain document to a witness, because without a

    9 certain foundation for that it is pointless to do so.

    10 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes.

    11 MR. BLAXILL: The document is, in fact, I

    12 see, marked as Exhibit 313 with the translation 313/A.

    13 The issue, I believe, relates to a witness whose

    14 evidence -- the evidence came in the case in-chief.

    15 I'm not sure whether the person was protected. I'll

    16 just have that checked before I mention a name, but I

    17 understand that the statement had not been served

    18 within the requisite period of time and was then either

    19 rejected or withdrawn.

    20 The document was a document that was

    21 introduced in connection with that, and ---well, it's a

    22 matter as to whether the document itself is acceptable

    23 as an exhibit. If not, it would have to be properly

    24 served in the course of putting documents in

    25 cross-examination in another way.



  93. 1 I'm not referring to the testimony of the

    2 person whose statement or whose testimony was withdrawn

    3 or rejected, but simply one of the documents that was

    4 put into court.

    5 I am entirely to be guided by your ruling,

    6 Your Honours.

    7 JUDGE CASSESE: You may proceed with your

    8 question about whether the witness is able to recognise

    9 the signature. But it is a general question, and a

    10 sort of preliminary question.

    11 MR. BLAXILL: Indeed, because the whole issue

    12 may be moot if the answer is a certain way.

    13 Q. May I ask you that question again, sir: Do

    14 you in fact recognise the signature of Mr. Zoran

    15 Kupreskic?

    16 A. No.

    17 MR. BLAXILL: That answers our question, Your

    18 Honours.

    19 Q. Now, sir, I believe you stated that the

    20 situation with regard to relations between Muslims and

    21 Croats in the community did become more tense and

    22 worsened after that first conflict; is that so?

    23 A. That is correct.

    24 Q. So much so that, if I can use the expression,

    25 it developed that certainly at night time it was wise



  94. 1 not to go to different parts of the villages?

    2 A. That is correct, yes.

    3 Q. Like your other unfortunate experience you

    4 described with Mr. Grgic in his car?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. You've also referred to a considerable

    7 apparent increase in crimes, particularly to do with

    8 car theft and so forth. Can you tell us anything more

    9 about the types or groups of people who were doing

    10 this? Were they by chance in any form of uniformed

    11 groups? Were they Muslim groups, or Croat groups? Can

    12 you give me some idea?

    13 A. These were mixed groups: Simply put, men who

    14 had no regard for peace, who had been involved in

    15 criminal activities even before. In my view, they were

    16 hiding behind uniforms and engaged in these things.

    17 Q. So basically you're saying, sir, that these

    18 people were, however, putting on uniforms; they were

    19 going in uniformed groups, albeit performing basically

    20 criminal activities?

    21 A. No. No, there were civilians, too, who

    22 performed these acts. But it was mixed. Some were in

    23 uniforms; some were without uniforms. But they all

    24 carried weapons.

    25 Q. This obviously -- you say you obviously then



  95. 1 maintained your village guards to protect the local

    2 population in those circumstances?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. Now, on the 15th of April of 1993, you were,

    5 I believe you said, at work and then went home in the

    6 normal way?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. You had -- I'm sorry; I didn't mean to talk

    9 over your response.

    10 You went to bed in the normal way; you had no

    11 fears of impending war or anything like that when you

    12 went to bed that night?

    13 A. No. I did not think that something like that

    14 would happen.

    15 Q. Then Mr. Slavko Papic woke you up at 4.00 in

    16 the morning; is that right?

    17 A. That is correct.

    18 Q. Are you -- you seem very positive about that

    19 time, sir, at 04.00. I mean, how did you verify that

    20 it was 4.00 in the morning?

    21 A. I saw that it was still dark, and as I was

    22 coming down, I passed through the kitchen, saw the

    23 clock, and saw that it was around 4.00.

    24 Q. Thank you. And what -- how had Mr. Papic

    25 woken you? Had he telephoned, or had he knocked on the



  96. 1 door, or how did he wake you up?

    2 A. He knocked on the door of my family home.

    3 Q. Obviously he alerted you to take some action,

    4 but do you remember more accurately what he actually

    5 said? Did he say what was going to happen?

    6 A. That night I'd slept on the top floor, and

    7 when he knocked on the door, my window is above the

    8 door. I looked, saw it was him. He told me to get up,

    9 to come out, that we should be awake because of

    10 potential trouble.

    11 Q. So that was all he said to you, a potential

    12 of trouble?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. Did you form any particular thought when he

    15 said that? I mean, did that make you think of any

    16 particular type of trouble, as to what it might be?

    17 A. Bearing in mind the first conflict, I thought

    18 that a conflict could break out between the Muslims and

    19 us, because the Serbs at that time were more in the

    20 area of Vlasic and in the direction of Sarajevo. They

    21 were not in our area.

    22 Q. So you formed a conclusion at that time; you

    23 thought it might be a Croat/Muslim problem that would

    24 be the trouble?

    25 A. Yes.



  97. 1 Q. Thank you, sir. Mr. Slavko Papic: Did he

    2 have any particular connections with the HVO?

    3 A. I don't know. I think he did not.

    4 Q. You think not? I will just put one

    5 suggestion to you that's been heard by this chamber,

    6 that he was in fact locally the commander of the HVO

    7 for Zume, for that small area. Does that ring any bell

    8 with your memory? Or do you still say that you don't

    9 recall that, or don't know?

    10 A. No, he was not a local commander for Zume.

    11 But during the war, he was appointed to that position.

    12 Q. I see. By using the expression "during the

    13 war," do you mean after the 16th of April, 1993?

    14 A. Yes, after the 16th. In fact, I think it was

    15 a month passed before Slavko was appointed commander.

    16 I don't know exactly.

    17 Q. Thank you for clearing that up for me, sir;

    18 I'm obliged to you.

    19 It was now at 4.00 in the morning; you get

    20 up, presumably you woke your family, and you got

    21 everybody dressed. Is that right?

    22 A. Yes, that is correct.

    23 Q. Did you then leave the house immediately that

    24 you were up and ready? Or did you stay in your home

    25 for a little while?



  98. 1 A. I got ready, took my rifle, M-48, and I went

    2 out of the house. So I stayed in for about five or ten

    3 minutes. My family stayed behind in the house, awake.

    4 I went by my brother's house, knocked on the door; I

    5 couldn't wake anybody up. Then I went to the Sakics'

    6 house.

    7 Q. Let me just stop you there; thank you. What

    8 time do you recall that you left the house?

    9 A. I cannot say exactly. I believe it was

    10 before 4.10, maybe around 10 past 4.00.

    11 Q. And how long do you think it took to get to

    12 your -- you say your brother-in-law's house?

    13 A. Brother's house.

    14 Q. Your brother's house; I'm sorry. What time

    15 do you think you got there?

    16 A. Those are houses one next to the other, 30

    17 metres away, perhaps, in the direction towards Sakic's

    18 house, not the other way.

    19 Q. From there, would you say where you went

    20 again?

    21 A. Then I took the road towards Niko Vidovic's

    22 shelter, and then to Sakic's house. Along the way I

    23 met Anto Vidovic and Nikica Vidovic, and I just

    24 exchanged a couple of words with them. Then as we

    25 walked together, we passed Niko Vidovic's shelter.



  99. 1 They went there, and I continued on to Sakic's house.

    2 Q. What time do you recall arriving at Sakic's

    3 house?

    4 A. Between 4.20 and 4.30; somewhere around

    5 there.

    6 Q. How long did you remain at Sakic's house, at

    7 that point?

    8 A. I was not inside the house; I was in front of

    9 the house. I don't know exactly. The shooting in

    10 Ahmici had started, and then I went with the group to

    11 Bijela Zemlja.

    12 Q. At what time do you think then you arrived

    13 there? Was this sometime after 5.00, say, 5.15?

    14 Something like that?

    15 A. Where?

    16 Q. When you said you moved on from Sakic's

    17 house.

    18 A. I did not say the exact time when I left

    19 Sakic's house to Bijela Zemlja. That was later. The

    20 shooting had already started in Ahmici. What time

    21 exactly it was, I don't know.

    22 Q. Was it shortly at around that time that you

    23 then encountered Mr. Zoran and Mr. Mirjan Kupreskic

    24 with their families?

    25 A. No. After Zoran passed with the Didak



  100. 1 family, I was waiting. Anto Vrnada and Mirko -- and

    2 Zoran passed as I was waiting. He was taking with him

    3 the Didaks' family. And then we proceeded on to Bijela

    4 Zemlja.

    5 Q. Do you recall when you got there, what time

    6 you got there?

    7 A. I don't know exactly. I did not have a

    8 watch.

    9 Q. Can you give any kind of guess as to how long

    10 it took you? Was it five minutes, or ten minutes?

    11 A. Before I went to Bijela Zemlja, or before?

    12 Several minutes. Two or three minutes.

    13 Q. Right. Do you recall how much later you

    14 encountered the Kupreskic families, and they went to

    15 seek shelter?

    16 A. Around 5.00.

    17 Q. You feel that it was around 5.00 that that

    18 happened?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. Taking into account you weren't wearing a

    21 watch, what made you think it was around 5.00, then,

    22 particularly?

    23 A. The basis that -- time I spent at Sakic's

    24 house, which was about half an hour; perhaps 40

    25 minutes.



  101. 1 Q. So from that location you described how the

    2 families of Zoran and Mirjan Kupreskic, if I have

    3 understood the story correctly, sir, they made their

    4 way down towards the shelters, closer to where you

    5 lived?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. If I'm -- just to be sure I have the version

    8 correct, did Mr. Mirjan and Mr. Zoran Kupreskic

    9 actually accompany their families to those places?

    10 They went with them?

    11 A. They passed by me, and they went on. I

    12 didn't go with them so that I knew that they went all

    13 the way. But I know that later on, they came back

    14 together, and they walked -- came past us.

    15 Q. Do you have any idea how long it was between

    16 the time that you saw them with their families and the

    17 time they came back? Do you know how long that was?

    18 A. I think that about 10 to 15 minutes passed.

    19 There's about half a kilometre to my house, in one

    20 direction.

    21 Q. And if I'm again getting my time correct, and

    22 please correct me if I'm wrong, was it during the

    23 period that they were away from you that you saw these

    24 30-odd armed soldiers?

    25 A. Yes.



  102. 1 Q. I'll ask you: Was it daylight at the time?

    2 A. No. It was early in the morning and it was

    3 still twilight. It had not dawned completely.

    4 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Radovic?

    5 MR. RADOVIC: Mr. President, I believe that

    6 some things cannot be asked. He is saying that -- he

    7 is saying that it is the twilight. He is not making a

    8 distinction between the morning twilight and the dawn,

    9 the break of dawn. I think the witness should not be

    10 confused here.

    11 JUDGE CASSESE: I don't think the question

    12 was confusing or misleading. It's just a question of

    13 asking the witness to clarify the matter.

    14 Mr. Blaxill, can you ask a question so that

    15 the witness may clarify this point?

    16 MR. BLAXILL:

    17 Q. From your last response, Mr. Vidovic, you

    18 appeared to indicate that it was not full daylight.

    19 Was it light enough for you to see clearly at that

    20 time?

    21 A. You could see clearly, but the darkness was

    22 receding and the dawn was approaching.

    23 Q. I don't know if I can elicit an any more

    24 clear response on that, Your Honours. It's not going

    25 to cause, I think, a problem for identification or



  103. 1 anything, far from it.

    2 Mr. Vidovic, you say you saw on these people

    3 that they were wearing white belts and you could

    4 obviously see police insignia. You say you saw

    5 military police insignia. Is that correct?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. And would that be HVO military police whom

    8 you saw?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. These people then went out of your sight and

    11 disappeared, yes?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. And did you see any of that unit again that

    14 day?

    15 A. No.

    16 Q. Some time later -- I do apologise. Some

    17 little time later you say that Mr. Zoran Kupreskic and

    18 Mirjan Kupreskic returned and joined up with you, is

    19 that right, at that spot?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. Did you all, in fact, together with Dragan

    22 Vidovic, Dragan Samija and, I think, Mirko Santic--

    23 Sacic I'm sorry, go towards the same direction as that

    24 group of people?

    25 A. No.



  104. 1 Q. I thought at one point you said you followed

    2 the group. Was I mistaken in noting that?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 JUDGE MAY: No, you were right. That's what

    5 he said. I have a note that he followed the unit.

    6 Those were the words that were used. Whether he meant

    7 they went in the same direction, I don't know.

    8 MR. BLAXILL: I will clarify, Your Honour.

    9 It's appropriate to do so. Thank you, sir.

    10 Q. Yes. Did you and your companions, at that

    11 point, go in the same direction that had been taken by

    12 those soldiers, those military policemen?

    13 A. Well, I didn't. I stayed at Niko Sakic's

    14 house in the valley, the depression, and with the

    15 soldiers it was Mirko Sakic who went off and Dragan

    16 Vidovic, Grgic, Zoran, and Mirjan and Mirko Sakic.

    17 Q. And you stayed in the depression?

    18 A. No. I stayed on that part of the road near

    19 Niko's house, on the asphalt.

    20 Q. How long did you remain there?

    21 A. Not long. I didn't stay at that part long.

    22 Several minutes waiting for two others to get ready,

    23 and then we went up to Bijela Zemlja.

    24 Q. Can you give me a time of day for when you

    25 did that, when you went there?



  105. 1 A. In Ahmici there was shooting going on

    2 already. In the lower parts of the village it could be

    3 heard, and near the Kupreskic houses as well. Zoran

    4 came with the Didaks, and I saw them from the road and

    5 they passed by us, and we went up there. I can't tell

    6 you what time it was exactly.

    7 Q. I think we've perhaps jumped back in time. I

    8 got the impression that when you saw that group of

    9 armed military policemen, that was after you had

    10 encountered the Kupreskics for the first time near

    11 Sakic's house. Is that correct?

    12 A. That's correct.

    13 Q. And then later Zoran and Mirjan Kupreskic

    14 returned and joined you?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. At this time you were then, I believe, in the

    17 vicinity of the house, I think you said, of Mr. Niko

    18 Vidovic. Is that correct?

    19 A. No, Sakic.

    20 Q. Mr. Sakic. I'm sorry. But were you not

    21 after that then guarding -- sorry. You then went to

    22 the other location to guard the shelter of Mr. Niko

    23 Vidovic. Did you say that?

    24 A. Yes, because -- and I can show you on the

    25 map. The place where I was at is somewhere between the



  106. 1 two shelters, towards Pirici.

    2 Q. And how long did you remain in that

    3 location?

    4 A. I stayed there for the first day, the second

    5 day and a part of the third day, and afterwards, in the

    6 afternoon hours, we went out to Pirici, Barin Gaj, up

    7 there.

    8 Q. So you're saying that you remained, in fact,

    9 in that location. Did you -- for the whole of the 16th

    10 of April? Let's just deal with the 16th for now.

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. Can you tell --

    13 A. I would go, from time to time, to them down

    14 in the depression, because the natural path towards the

    15 entrance to the mine leads right towards the Kupreskic

    16 house in the valley, in the depression. So on two or

    17 three occasions I went to them.

    18 Q. So if I understand you correctly, you were in

    19 a position of standing guard away from but near to the

    20 depression in the ground; is that right? You were

    21 somewhere close to it?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. How many companions did you have with you

    24 when you were in that position?

    25 A. I can tell you the names. There was Miro



  107. 1 Pudza, there was Mirko Grgic, Pero Jelic, Anto Brnada

    2 and Samija Miro, who afterwards went down to his own

    3 house.

    4 Q. So you and that group basically stayed there

    5 the whole day in that position with other people down

    6 in the depression?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. Do you remember at what time it was that

    9 those people went into the depression, leaving you up

    10 at the top? Was this at the very beginning?

    11 A. I apologise. The people stayed. The ones I

    12 enumerated stayed with me. They didn't go down to the

    13 depression. There was another group down there. It

    14 was Sakic, and Kupreskic and the others.

    15 Q. Yes. I understood that to be the case.

    16 The -- there was another group of people who were down

    17 in the depression. That is correct, yes?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. You were saying that Mr. Mirjan Kupreskic was

    20 amongst that group. Is that so?

    21 A. The group that was in the depression, yes,

    22 that's true.

    23 Q. And was Mr. Zoran Kupreskic in the group who

    24 remained in the depression?

    25 A. Yes.



  108. 1 Q. I believe you say that from time to time you

    2 yourself went down there to check up on the people, to

    3 see how they were.

    4 A. Yes, and to exchange a few words because we

    5 had no information.

    6 Q. Can you tell me how many times in the course

    7 of that morning, let us say before the hour of noon,

    8 you went down into the depression to speak to the

    9 people?

    10 A. I think I went twice in the course of the

    11 morning.

    12 Q. Can you give me any indication of the times

    13 at which you may have done so?

    14 A. The first time it was about 8.30, and the

    15 second time a little before 12.00, between 11.00 and

    16 12.00. I don't know exactly.

    17 Q. During the course of the afternoon, after the

    18 hour of 12.00, how many times did you go down into the

    19 depression?

    20 A. Only once, before dusk fell.

    21 Q. Can you give us any indication at what time

    22 of day dusk fell at that time of year?

    23 A. About 7.00. I don't know exactly.

    24 Q. So over the course of the day you say that

    25 you made three visits to the depression.



  109. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. I think you've given a description to the

    3 Chamber that it was a very well-protected feature, had

    4 a lot of trees and vegetation around it so you couldn't

    5 see down into it. Is that right?

    6 A. Yes. That's right.

    7 Q. Likewise, therefore, people inside it would

    8 not necessarily be in sight of you if you were around

    9 it on guard with a group of people?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. So for the majority of the day you and the

    12 Kupreskics would not have been physically able to see

    13 each other?

    14 A. No. From one place and the other place, no.

    15 Q. So you say that the shooting went on

    16 basically for the rest of that day in and around

    17 Ahmici?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. You had already heard that there was shooting

    20 in the vicinity of the Kupreskic houses, there had

    21 been?

    22 A. That's right.

    23 Q. And that there was obviously shooting from

    24 other directions as well?

    25 A. Yes.



  110. 1 Q. If we try to estimate some time without being

    2 too speculative, your group of people was in that

    3 location near the depression from fairly early hours of

    4 the morning. Would you say from before 6.00? Would

    5 you think that is fair to say?

    6 A. About 6.00. I can't tell you exactly.

    7 Q. Presumably, if I understand you correctly,

    8 that would place, you say, Mr. Zoran Kupreskic and

    9 Mr. Mirjan Kupreskic in that depression somewhere

    10 around 6.00, in the early hours of the morning?

    11 A. About 6.00. I don't know exactly.

    12 Q. If I interpret correctly what you have been

    13 saying to us, the nature of that terrain was such that

    14 you could not see them and they could not see you. So

    15 if I suggest to you a possibility, you can give me an

    16 answer if you will, sir. Someone could have left that

    17 depression for a period of time, you would not have

    18 seen them and not have known that they were absent from

    19 that depression during that period; isn't that

    20 correct?

    21 A. That's correct, but had they left the

    22 depression going towards my house using the road, then

    23 I could have seen them up from above.

    24 Q. Saying they had left the depression and gone

    25 in the direction of Mr. Vlatko Kupreskic's or Mr. Zoran



  111. 1 Kupreskic's home, could someone have left the

    2 depression and gone in that direction without being

    3 observed by you?

    4 A. I think so, but I don't know.

    5 Q. One thing I would like to ask you, sir, is

    6 what, in fact, had happened with respect to your own

    7 family, because initially you say you left the house

    8 and left them at your home. So what had happened to

    9 them?

    10 A. My family remained, throughout the war, in my

    11 house. They never moved from there.

    12 Q. Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't mean for the

    13 duration of war, I mean on that day. Did your family

    14 seek shelter? Did you take them to a shelter?

    15 A. They stayed in my family house.

    16 Q. So throughout the events of the 16th of

    17 April, in fact, your family just stayed in your own

    18 home?

    19 A. Yes. My house is located right next to Jozo

    20 Vrbac's shelter. It's about ten metres away.

    21 Q. So from that I'm presuming, so you can

    22 correct me if wrong, that you felt there was a shelter

    23 close by if an emergency arose?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. Did your family, in fact, seek any shelter



  112. 1 there during the 16th of April?

    2 A. No. They stayed in my family house together

    3 with Zoran's family and Didak's family.

    4 Q. Therefore, sir, if I can put it to you: Did

    5 you consider, therefore, that the events of that day,

    6 whatever they were, your family, in that location, was

    7 safe enough from any harm?

    8 A. We were not safe even in the centre of Vitez,

    9 let alone in my family house, but the house is firmly

    10 built, it has two floors, it has two concrete --

    11 reinforced concrete plates, and in the -- it was

    12 looking onto the main road, and so that I feel that

    13 apart from the fact if the Muslims, for example,

    14 stormed the village, unless they took the family out of

    15 the house then they did not have any great need to go

    16 to a shelter.

    17 Q. So what you're saying, if -- I'm just trying

    18 to get the full picture here. You say, obviously, if

    19 the Muslims stormed the village, they could be taken

    20 prisoner or something and may be safer in a shelter.

    21 Is that what you're saying?

    22 A. No. Even -- the same thing -- it would have

    23 been the same had they been in the shelter just as if

    24 they were in my house. So my house was built firmly

    25 and was safe from shelling just as the shelter was. It



  113. 1 was just as safe.

    2 Q. But did your house have any kind of

    3 underground cellar, underground basement as these other

    4 properties appeared to have had as their safety

    5 shelters?

    6 A. No.

    7 Q. So isn't it true to say, sir, that you,

    8 Mr. Vidovic, did not fear that your family was in

    9 sufficient danger on the 16th of April to warrant them

    10 seeking shelter in an underground shelter like many

    11 other Croat families?

    12 A. My house, at the time, was 500 metres from

    13 the fighting, and I didn't think it was necessary for

    14 them to have to go into a house which was on the other

    15 side and crowded with all the other inhabitants. My

    16 wife decided to stay at home.

    17 Q. Isn't it true it's because the very nature of

    18 that action in Ahmici that day posed, in fact, no

    19 danger to your family in the Croat area of the town --

    20 or the village, I'm sorry, and bearing in mind the

    21 target of the attacking troops? Is that true?

    22 A. Would you repeat that question, please?

    23 Q. Your family was located in a Croat area in

    24 the -- in the town, predominantly, and you knew, did

    25 you not, that the nature of the attack in Ahmici that



  114. 1 morning posed no immediate danger to your home and your

    2 family?

    3 A. When I went from my house I didn't know what

    4 was going to happen in Ahmici, so I couldn't foresee.

    5 I couldn't tell my wife what to do. My wife decided on

    6 her own to stay in the house. She decided to stay.

    7 Q. Yet the -- you had obviously had a warning of

    8 trouble because you were woken at 4.00, and it was

    9 clear that sometime after 5.00 the shooting had

    10 started, there were explosions. Did you not, at that

    11 point, even think to get home and reassess the

    12 situation, or did you still feel confident that they

    13 were in no great danger?

    14 A. I went home for the first time at about 7.30,

    15 and they were still in the house, and they stayed

    16 there. They didn't go anywhere.

    17 Q. Thank you. I'd like a moment to confer if I

    18 may, please, Your Honours.

    19 I was just thinking at this particular point,

    20 Your Honours, and noting the time, that it would be

    21 perhaps a natural break point to stop. I don't think I

    22 will be keeping this witness a very long time tomorrow

    23 morning, or Your Honours, with my cross-examination. I

    24 think it would be a little premature for me to cease

    25 and conclude it immediately today.



  115. 1 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. So we adjourn now

    2 until tomorrow at 9.00.

    3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

    4 at 1.30 p.m., to be reconvened on

    5 Wednesday, the 3rd day of March, 1999,

    6 at 9:00 a.m.

    7

    8

    9

    10

    11

    12

    13

    14

    15

    16

    17

    18

    19

    20

    21

    22

    23

    24

    25