1. 1 Monday, 22nd March, 1999

    2 (Open session)

    3 (The accused entered court)

    4 (The witness entered court)

    5 --- Upon commencing at 9.10 a.m.

    6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.

    7 This is case number IT-95-16-T, the Prosecutor versus

    8 Zoran Kupreskic, Mirjan Kupreskic, Vlatko Kupreskic,

    9 Drago Josipovic, Dragan Papic, and Vladimir Santic.

    10 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Good morning.

    11 Mr. Blaxill?

    12 MR. BLAXILL: Mr. President, Your Honours,

    13 good morning. Counsel, good morning to you. Good

    14 morning, Mr. Vidovic.

    15 Your Honours, before I recommence my

    16 cross-examination, just to check the timings with Your

    17 Honours, I presume that the morning session will be as

    18 normal, with the breaks taken as you normally do, up to

    19 1.30, and I believe this afternoon we're running 14.30

    20 to 17.30. Have Your Honours any thoughts as to what

    21 break times you wish to take because we can obviously

    22 plan ourselves to try and work round that.

    23 JUDGE CASSESE: I said that we will sit until

    24 1.00, and then from 2.30 to 5.30. So we will take a

    25 break at 10.30.



  2. 1 MR. BLAXILL: Thank you, Your Honour. I'm

    2 obliged to you. Thank you.

    3 THE WITNESS: DRAGAN VIDOVIC (Resumed)

    4 Cross-examined by Mr. Blaxill:

    5 Q. Mr. Vidovic, good morning again. On Friday

    6 we were speaking about the events on the morning of the

    7 16th of April, 1993, and I think we'd got to the point

    8 where you had received the briefing at the house of

    9 Mr. Livancic and subsequently had approached various

    10 people, including the Kupreskic families, to warn

    11 people to move to the shelters. Can you confirm for

    12 me, please, sir, what time it was that you got to your

    13 own home?

    14 A. Just a moment.

    15 Well, it was sometime around 4.20, perhaps.

    16 Perhaps half past four.

    17 Q. And at that time, sir, what were you wearing?

    18 A. I had a camouflage jacket, and my trousers

    19 were civilian, and I had, I think, a pair of boots.

    20 Q. Thank you. You then took your family to the

    21 shelter at the home of Mr. Niko Sakic; could you

    22 indicate about what time you arrived there?

    23 A. The first time when I reached my house, I

    24 woke them up, then aroused other neighbours, and then I

    25 came back to fetch my family, and then I took them to



  3. 1 Niko Sakic's shelter. So I reached the shelter at

    2 about -- well, it could have been some ten minutes

    3 before the fire started, before the shooting started.

    4 So it could be 5.20 or thereabouts.

    5 Q. So you think you arrived there at about 5.20,

    6 and I believe you then said that you remained near that

    7 house, near his garage, and you were in company with

    8 some other people. The people you've named so far,

    9 sir, are as follows, if I could recall these with you.

    10 Mr. Dragan Samija; is that correct?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. Mr. Mirko Sakic?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. Milutin Vidovic?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. Niko Sakic himself?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. And Mr. Miroslav Pudza? They were with you

    19 at the time; is that right?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. And about how much longer was it before you

    22 saw the group of soldiers pass you by?

    23 A. Shortly afterwards. They turned up perhaps

    24 two or three minutes afterwards. They came from the

    25 direction of Zume.



  4. 1 Q. And you've described these soldiers as being

    2 in camouflage or black uniforms and fairly heavily

    3 armed. Were they Croat soldiers?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. And you've identified from the white belts

    6 they were wearing that they were military policemen; is

    7 that so?

    8 A. I guessed so.

    9 Q. And I believe you said that all of them had

    10 some kind of face paint on except for one person; is

    11 that right?

    12 A. Yes, it is.

    13 Q. And that person was a man you recognised as a

    14 local person called Mirjan Santic; is that so?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. Did any particular thought cross your mind

    17 when you saw that Mirjan Santic, the local man, had no

    18 face paint, and yet all the others did? Did that

    19 strike you in any way as strange, or provoke any

    20 thought?

    21 A. Really, at that time, at that particular

    22 point, I think I was scared stiff. I hardly know what

    23 I was thinking at that time.

    24 Q. But when these soldiers passed you by, were

    25 you visible to them? Could they see you?



  5. 1 A. Well, if they were looking in that direction,

    2 they could, because I was close. If they were looking,

    3 that is.

    4 Q. But you and your fellow neighbours who were

    5 there at the time would have been visible to these

    6 soldiers if they had cared to look; that's correct?

    7 A. Well, we were there, so they could see us if

    8 they wanted to.

    9 Q. You say that at the time that you were

    10 frightened, but these soldiers were Croat soldiers, and

    11 you've said that what you had feared was a Muslim

    12 attack. That's the warning you had had. Why were you

    13 so frightened seeing Croat soldiers?

    14 A. Well, because it was the first time I came

    15 across such soldiers painted, and they looked strange.

    16 I knew they were Croats because they came from the

    17 direction of Zume. Otherwise I wouldn't have been able

    18 to conclude that from anything else.

    19 Q. Because of the direction, they were coming

    20 from the Croat part of the community; is that so?

    21 A. Yes, quite so.

    22 Q. So if, as you say, you'd been warned, you

    23 thought there might be some kind of Muslim attack, can

    24 you say what direction you expected that to come from?

    25 A. Well, from the direction of Ahmici,



  6. 1 naturally, because those were the closest Muslims.

    2 Q. And that, roughly speaking, would it not have

    3 been, in a sense, the direction towards the houses of

    4 the Kupreskic family and beyond, is that correct, from

    5 where you were?

    6 A. Yes, from the direction of the Kupreskic

    7 houses towards us.

    8 Q. So we have seen some photographs of the

    9 depression to which you say you moved, and it would

    10 appear that there is an access to that depression that

    11 faces the houses of the Kupreskics; is that right?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. So do you think you would have been

    14 particularly safe in that depression, if indeed, as you

    15 feared, a Muslim attack had come upon the village?

    16 A. Well, I think that the place itself was quite

    17 good as a shelter. I mean, the configuration of the

    18 ground was quite good, so one could be protected there,

    19 and we would still be near our families.

    20 Q. Sir, I'm afraid I've jumped ahead a little

    21 bit. Now, you and the group were near the house of

    22 Niko Sakic, and then you in fact moved to the

    23 depression as a group of people; is that right?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. And when you went into that depression, were



  7. 1 any of your -- yourself or your comrades, were you in

    2 any way armed?

    3 A. Yes. Well, I did have a rifle, and my

    4 colleagues had some weapons.

    5 Q. Of the -- for now, the five names I have

    6 previously mentioned, did all or any of them have guns?

    7 A. I wouldn't know if they all had them, but I

    8 know I had one. I know that Mirko Sakic had one, and I

    9 think that the majority had weapons. I'm positive that

    10 I had.

    11 Q. Now, at that point, how many of you had gone

    12 into the depression? We've spoken of five names plus

    13 yourself; that's six. Were there any more at that

    14 point?

    15 A. When we entered that depression, or rather

    16 when we heard shots, those five -- that is, the five of

    17 us immediately entered the depression, and Zoran

    18 Kupreskic ran in from the direction of Zume after a

    19 couple of minutes.

    20 Q. So when you caught sight of Zoran Kupreskic,

    21 it was in the depression; is that so? You were already

    22 there?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. Was Mr. Kupreskic armed when he arrived?

    25 A. Yes, I think so. I think he had a weapon.



  8. 1 Q. And what was Mr. Zoran Kupreskic wearing?

    2 A. I remember he had a camouflage jacket, a size

    3 too big for him, and that he was wearing civilian

    4 trousers, and I don't remember what he had on his

    5 feet.

    6 Q. When you were in that depression, how did you

    7 in fact arrange yourselves? Did you simply sit down as

    8 a group, or did you try and place yourselves in some

    9 kind of defensive deployment?

    10 A. No, we were not sitting down, but we were

    11 huddled in a group, frightened, so just seeking shelter

    12 in that depression.

    13 Q. Did you think to have any one of your number

    14 at any particular point in that depression to keep a

    15 lookout in case anyone came, in case an attack came

    16 from Muslim forces? Did you not think to do that?

    17 A. Where we were standing, where we were hiding,

    18 we could see that path coming from the direction of the

    19 Kupreskics' house. That is, if the Muslims had been on

    20 their way, we would have seen them.

    21 Q. Right. Did you discuss where you would go,

    22 when you were at the meeting at Livancic's house?

    23 A. No. As a matter of fact, we talked about

    24 it -- we talked only about how we could take the

    25 families and the neighbours to the shelter, and each



  9. 1 one of us knew where they could be taken for shelter.

    2 Q. So at that briefing, you had no conversation

    3 beyond performing your civil defence duties? You were

    4 not told what to do after that?

    5 A. No. Nobody said anything.

    6 Q. Were you aware of any kind of instruction to

    7 any of the people who had been at that meeting from

    8 Mr. Nenad Santic? Did you hear any instructions given?

    9 A. I don't know. All I know is what I just

    10 said.

    11 Q. Very well. Now, you are then in this

    12 depression, and I believe you have stated that from

    13 time to time, one or more of the group would leave the

    14 depression; is that correct?

    15 A. It is, yes.

    16 Q. And for what sort of time periods did people

    17 leave? Were they very different? Were they short

    18 periods, or long periods?

    19 A. Well, for instance, since my people were the

    20 closest here in the shelter, I would come back every

    21 five or six minutes. And those who were a bit further

    22 away, those families who were a bit further away, then

    23 they would take some 10 or 15 minutes.

    24 Q. Do you recall how many times, let us say, for

    25 example, Mr. Milutin Vidovic left the depression that



  10. 1 day?

    2 A. I couldn't say exactly how many times, but

    3 generally not -- not once. Several times -- less than

    4 several times. Two or three times.

    5 Q. What about Mr. Dragan Samija? Do you

    6 remember how many times he may have left the depression

    7 during the day?

    8 A. I really can't tell you. I can tell you how

    9 many times I came out of the depression. I really do

    10 not remember how many times they left it.

    11 Q. And would the same be true of Mr. Zoran

    12 Kupreskic? Do you remember the times he left the

    13 depression?

    14 A. Once again, I told you, it could have been

    15 two or three times.

    16 Q. Now, do you recall when Mr. Mirjan Kupreskic

    17 came to the depression?

    18 A. Well, when we heard the first shots, Mirjan

    19 Kupreskic was with me, so we entered the depression

    20 together.

    21 Q. As far as you are aware, during the day, was

    22 there always somebody in the depression? Was there any

    23 time when the whole group of you left?

    24 A. No. No, it never happened that we all left.

    25 It was always one or two.



  11. 1 Q. Just to clarify that, you mean it was only

    2 one or two at a time would leave? Yes?

    3 A. Yes. At some point, perhaps three would go

    4 at a time, if -- they would go together to see the

    5 families.

    6 Q. And as you have said, this was a place of

    7 concealment for your self-protection. Presumably you

    8 could not see where anyone went once they left the

    9 depression; is that right?

    10 A. It is, yes.

    11 Q. So I believe later in the day you then

    12 decided to move your family; is that right?

    13 A. It wasn't me who decided it. We agreed in

    14 the shelter, just for the sake of some safety, that it

    15 would be better if we retreated towards Zume.

    16 Q. Had there, therefore, been shooting going on

    17 virtually all day to this point?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. Had there been any particular event that made

    20 you suddenly realise that this shelter wasn't so safe?

    21 Had something additional happened to make you think

    22 that?

    23 A. What happened was that bullets were hitting

    24 houses, and branches, and tree branches, and we

    25 realised it was not safe and we would have to retreat



  12. 1 further.

    2 Q. So what time of day was it that you decided

    3 that the families should move and retreat further

    4 towards Zume?

    5 A. Once again, it wasn't me who decided about

    6 the retreat, it was sometime in the afternoon, around

    7 16.00, 16.30, was when they left.

    8 Q. So in point of fact, the families had been

    9 there from something like just before 5.00 -- well,

    10 5.15 to 5.30 in the morning right through until 4.00 in

    11 the afternoon?

    12 A. Correct.

    13 Q. And presumably, the bullets had been flying

    14 for most of the day; had they not?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. So after 4.00, you moved your -- well, your

    17 family and others moved towards Zume. Did you

    18 accompany them?

    19 A. No.

    20 Q. So what did you do?

    21 A. I was there in the depression.

    22 Q. Now, whilst you were in the depression, was

    23 one of your purposes to offer some protection to the

    24 nearby shelters?

    25 A. In a manner of speaking, yes, because our



  13. 1 families were there, children.

    2 Q. So presumably once those families had

    3 relocated to Zume, that particular purpose for being in

    4 the depression was no longer relevant; is that so?

    5 A. Well, yes, it was the best shelter. It

    6 offered some safety to us who were there.

    7 Q. But once you relocated your families to Zume,

    8 would you not have been safer if you and your

    9 colleagues had also stayed in Zume?

    10 A. We stayed there. I don't really know why,

    11 but at any rate, that is where we stayed.

    12 Q. But would you agree with me, Mr. Vidovic,

    13 that logically, if your families were safer in Zume, so

    14 would you have been safer in Zume; is that not so?

    15 A. We stayed there, again, because of the safety

    16 of our families, because that was the only direction

    17 from which the Muslims could reach the shelter and the

    18 shelter at Niko Vidovic's.

    19 Q. So even after you had removed your families

    20 from the immediate danger of that area, you and your

    21 colleagues returned there to be a defensive presence

    22 against a possible Muslim attack; is that so?

    23 A. Yes. As a matter of fact, to protect our

    24 families as far as possible.

    25 Q. Thank you, sir. At what time of the day or



  14. 1 the night did you leave the depression?

    2 A. In fact, we never left the depression. We

    3 would go out 50 or 60 metres, coming to the brink of

    4 that depression, where Ivo Kupreskic's stable was. We

    5 came to the stable once it was dark.

    6 Q. Did all of you in that group go to the

    7 stable?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. Is that where you spent the night of the 16th

    10 of April?

    11 A. Yes. That is where we spent the night and,

    12 of course, some people stood guard in front of the

    13 stable.

    14 Q. And the following day, when daylight came,

    15 where did you go? The 17th.

    16 A. We again retreated to the depression, because

    17 the stable was at an elevation and it was not safe.

    18 Q. And, again, did you reoccupy the depression

    19 principally as a defensive measure? You would be there

    20 to be in the way of any Muslim attack that came; is

    21 that right?

    22 A. Well, it means we were there again in a

    23 group, all together. We were all together. There was

    24 no line or anything, we were just there. We could keep

    25 an eye on that path.



  15. 1 Q. So you could keep an eye on the path. You

    2 were essentially, were you not, guarding that line of

    3 approach in case any Muslim attack came?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. And you remained there, did you, for the

    6 whole of the 17th?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. Did you spend the following night again in

    9 the barn or, I'm sorry, the stable you referred to?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. Were all of you still present in that group,

    12 including Mr. Zoran Kupreskic and Mr. Mirjan

    13 Kupreskic?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. I believe it was then on the 18th you

    16 received an approach by Croat military police officers;

    17 is that correct?

    18 A. Yes. On the third day, in the afternoon.

    19 Q. I'm sorry to interrupt you, sir. On the

    20 afternoon of the third day, you received some

    21 instructions from those military police essentially to

    22 dig in, to dig some trenches there; is that right?

    23 A. So these two, if they were military

    24 policemen, took us to Pirici, up to Pirici.

    25 Q. And it was there that you then dug in and you



  16. 1 remained; is that so?

    2 A. Yes, at Pirici, at sunset, and that is where

    3 we stayed.

    4 Q. So did you consider yourself, therefore,

    5 under military orders and performing your military task

    6 when you received those instructions?

    7 A. Well, since we could do nothing, since we

    8 were not allowed to do anything else, we had to do it.

    9 We realised that we were --

    10 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry, the interpreter

    11 could not hear the end of the sentence.

    12 MR. BLAXILL:

    13 Q. Yes. Mr. Vidovic, you were saying something

    14 like, "We realised that we were," but I'm afraid the

    15 interpreter didn't hear the last of your sentence.

    16 Could you repeat that for us, please?

    17 A. Well, yes. I did think that I was a part of

    18 it since I was there, rather that they'd made me a part

    19 of it.

    20 Q. In point of fact though, is it not so that

    21 you and your colleagues had been in at least parts of

    22 uniform, armed, and essentially guarding a location

    23 since the early morning of the 16th of April? Isn't

    24 that so?

    25 A. True. On the morning of the 16th we were



  17. 1 dressed, as you said; armed, as you said; and were in

    2 that shelter.

    3 MR. BLAXILL: I wonder if I might just have a

    4 moment to confer with my colleagues, Your Honours.

    5 Thank, Mr. President. I'm obliged to Your

    6 Honours.

    7 Q. I just have one further thing I would like to

    8 ask you, Mr. Vidovic, if you would. That is, did you,

    9 in fact, leave the depression around 7.00 that morning

    10 and go anywhere near your own home?

    11 A. I'm sorry, I didn't understand what morning.

    12 Q. Sorry, I should have said. I apologise,

    13 yes. The morning of the 16th of April, the first day

    14 of the second conflict.

    15 A. That morning, around 7.00 I was there in the

    16 depression. I couldn't have gone to my home anyway.

    17 Q. Do you recall seeing anybody known to you as

    18 the Didak family that morning, the 16th?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. Where and under what circumstances did you

    21 see them?

    22 A. Well, around twenty past five or twenty-five

    23 past five two women got out of that depression. I

    24 don't know what time it was. I know it was women with

    25 children. Then Zoran took them to the shelter, towards



  18. 1 Zume.

    2 Q. I see. Did you later find out the names of

    3 these women? Are they the names that I mentioned to

    4 you, the Didak family?

    5 A. Yes. It was Manda and Marica.

    6 Q. And you say that you saw them coming out of

    7 the depression and then they encountered Mr. Zoran

    8 Kupreskic who took them on towards Zume; is that

    9 right?

    10 A. Yes, that's right.

    11 MR. BLAXILL: Your Honours, I have no further

    12 questions. Thank you.

    13 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    14 Ms. Slokovic-Glumac?

    15 Re-examined by Ms. Slokovic-Glumac:

    16 Q. Good morning, Mr. Vidovic.

    17 A. Good morning.

    18 Q. We'd just like to go through some of the

    19 things you had mentioned during this examination to see

    20 how things go.

    21 The 16th, in the morning, you passed by Niko

    22 Sakic's house; is that right?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. That is to say, just before you heard the

    25 shooting. Who did you see then?



  19. 1 A. From the direction of Zume, I saw them

    2 coming.

    3 Q. All right. Well, after these military men.

    4 Who was with you at the time the military were passing

    5 by?

    6 A. At that point there was Mirko Sakic, Dragan

    7 Samija, Milutin Vidovic, Niko Samija -- I'm sorry, Niko

    8 Sakic, and I.

    9 Q. That is to say, at the point when the

    10 military were passing by?

    11 A. Yes, that's right.

    12 Q. Was there anybody else, perhaps?

    13 A. Well, I do not recall. I remember that when

    14 the military men went by, when the military men went by

    15 then Mirjan and Zoran came.

    16 Q. All right. Do you remember any other

    17 neighbours who were there? All right. If you can't

    18 remember, you can't remember.

    19 A. I don't know if I mentioned Miroslav Pudza,

    20 but I know he was there.

    21 Q. Please tell us whether all of you remained in

    22 the depression or not. Which members of this group

    23 left?

    24 A. As I said, every now and then we would leave

    25 just to see our families. That is to say, in the



  20. 1 direction of the shelter. For example, I went to the

    2 shelter where my family was.

    3 Q. All right. You said that, but do you know

    4 that some people were at a place called Podbijelom

    5 Zemljom, that there was somebody from the Pudza houses,

    6 some of your neighbours from there?

    7 A. Well, it's nearby. I don't know. I can't

    8 remember.

    9 Q. You can't remember?

    10 A. No, I can't remember.

    11 Q. Are you sure that Milutin Vidovic was with

    12 you that day?

    13 A. I'm sure that he was by Niko Sakic's garage.

    14 I don't think he went into the depression with us.

    15 Q. All right. And are you sure that Miroslav

    16 Pudza went into the depression?

    17 A. I'm not sure about him either. I even think

    18 that the two of them were not in the depression.

    19 Q. Do you know where they went to?

    20 A. No, I don't.

    21 Q. So who was in the depression? Would you tell

    22 us once again?

    23 A. Well, it was Mirko Sakic, Zoran Kupreskic,

    24 Mirjan Kupreskic, Dragan Samija, and I.

    25 Q. So these two, who you mentioned, Miroslav



  21. 1 Pudza and Milutin Vidovic, as far as you can remember,

    2 they went away; right?

    3 A. Yes. Well, I don't know where they went to

    4 but they weren't with us.

    5 Q. All right. Please tell us, what is your

    6 estimate, how far is Milutin Vidovic's shelter from

    7 Niko Sakic's house.

    8 A. I can't say for sure but 600 metres,

    9 approximately, as I said.

    10 Q. And how far away is Niko Vidovic's shelter?

    11 A. Well, if that was 600, perhaps it could be

    12 300, 350 the metres.

    13 Q. And Jozo Vrebac's?

    14 A. Well, perhaps about 750, up to 800 metres.

    15 Q. You also told the Prosecutor that you thought

    16 that this was some kind of a position from which you

    17 could perhaps see people coming to the site towards

    18 these shelters; is that correct?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. Did you have the feeling that if there were

    21 to be any kind of attack, any kind of action from that

    22 site that you could offer significant resistance?

    23 A. Well, I don't know how much we would have

    24 succeeded, but that's why we were there. But I don't

    25 know whether -- well, we were inexperienced with regard



  22. 1 to these matters.

    2 Q. So you thought that you could help?

    3 A. Yes. Yes, our families.

    4 Q. In which way?

    5 A. Yes, that we could help our families.

    6 Q. Please tell us, in relation to the

    7 Prosecutor's questions that were put to you in

    8 connection with the truck that you saw, if you remember

    9 the one that you saw come into the village sometime in

    10 May 1992?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. You said that you saw some boxes and a few

    13 rifles.

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. Tell me, did you see someone on the truck?

    16 A. Yes. Yes, I think I said so. I saw three

    17 Muslims, and they were there.

    18 Q. Did they have any weapons in their hands?

    19 A. I remember very well that one of them had a

    20 M53 machine gun in his hands and it surprised me.

    21 Q. Were they shooting? Were they shooting as

    22 they were getting in?

    23 A. Well, as they were turning towards Ahmici

    24 from the main road, we could hear shooting in that

    25 direction. As they passed by my house where I was,



  23. 1 then there was no shooting. And again, we heard

    2 shooting as they were getting into the upper part of

    3 the village, into Gornji Ahmici.

    4 Q. After that, did you perhaps hear from the

    5 inhabitants of the village, the Muslims, the people

    6 that you stood guard with at the time, did you hear

    7 them say that they got weapons from Slimena? Did they

    8 boast about it?

    9 A. Well, yes, yes, they bragged, because we saw

    10 them carrying around these weapons, and they were

    11 saying that they brought in larger quantities of

    12 ammunition and weapons.

    13 Q. After that, did you see a person shooting at

    14 the village from the truck?

    15 A. Well, about an hour, hour and a half later,

    16 Suad Ahmici called Breza. He went by Suljo Pezer's

    17 house and Smajo Pezer's house. Since this was near my

    18 house I saw that he had a semiautomatic rifle and he

    19 was shooting in the air.

    20 Q. Did he ever tell you where he got that

    21 rifle?

    22 A. Well, he never told me, but I assume that

    23 that is that rifle that came on that truck, because I

    24 hadn't seen it before that.

    25 Q. Could you please tell us whether you saw any



  24. 1 of the Croat inhabitants of the village on the 20th of

    2 October, 1992, that they were in conflict with the

    3 Muslims?

    4 A. No.

    5 Q. That there was shooting, that there was some

    6 kind of position?

    7 A. No, no. From the place where we were, we

    8 couldn't see it anyway. It was actually on the main

    9 road that shooting was. Up there where we were, no,

    10 no, nothing up there. There was no shooting there.

    11 Q. Did you hear any shooting from any other

    12 parts of the village apart from the road, that is to

    13 say, on the 20th of October, 1992?

    14 A. I only heard it from the main road and from

    15 the cemetery over there.

    16 Q. I'm also interested in another thing. On

    17 several occasions we talked; is that right?

    18 A. (No audible response)

    19 Q. Tell us, how come that every time we talked

    20 about this meeting on the 16th you always enumerate the

    21 people who were there, Ivica Vidovic Jevco, Simo

    22 Vidovic, Ivo Vojevic, Anto Covic, Jozo Livancic.

    23 A. I'm sorry, could you just tell me the date.

    24 Q. We're talking about the meeting on the 16th

    25 in the morning, that is to say, the night?



  25. 1 A. Yes, yes.

    2 Q. But in my notes I did not find the name of

    3 Zeljko Livancic. You never mentioned it except here at

    4 the trial itself?

    5 A. I don't know. You asked me or somebody asked

    6 me what kind of uniform Zeljko wore. What kind of

    7 clothes he had on. I could not recall at all and now I

    8 am not even sure whether he was there at all. I gave

    9 this some thought on Saturday and Sunday, and I don't

    10 know whether he was there.

    11 Q. Tell me, was he a member of the civilian

    12 defence?

    13 A. No.

    14 Q. Was there any reason for him to attend this

    15 meeting if it was the members of the civilian defence

    16 who were there at the meeting, the ones you mentioned?

    17 A. Well, if he was there and I'm not 100 per

    18 cent sure -- well, he could have been because it was

    19 the house where he lived.

    20 Q. That's his house?

    21 A. Yes, it's his house or, rather, his father's

    22 house. Not for any other reason. I mean, it wasn't

    23 necessary for him to be there for any other reason.

    24 Q. Who did you talk to for sure? Who did you

    25 talk to for sure that day?



  26. 1 A. Well, with Jevco. That is to say with Ivica

    2 Vidovic. He told me everything that I had learned that

    3 night.

    4 Q. Did you talk to Santic at all, to Nenad?

    5 A. No.

    6 Q. Did you talk to any of these other persons:

    7 Simo Vidovic, Ivo Vojevic, Anto Covic?

    8 A. No. No, we didn't really talk. It was only

    9 Ivica Vidovic, Jevco, who told us what -- and then we

    10 left.

    11 Q. Tell me, did you keep any notes about these

    12 meetings?

    13 A. No, no. No, I didn't. None.

    14 Q. All right. In view of this fact, if I were

    15 to tell you that the Defence has evidence that Zeljko

    16 Livancic was at the position in Kuber at that time and

    17 that he was killed --

    18 JUDGE MAY: That is a leading question.

    19 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Yes, Your Honour. I

    20 have concluded. I only have one more question to ask.

    21 Q. So what would you say, in view of the answers

    22 that you've given now and the ones that you gave at the

    23 last hearing in response to my questions and in

    24 response to the Prosecutor's questions, in view of

    25 everything you have said, with what degree of certainty



  27. 1 can you state that Zeljko Livancic was in that house on

    2 the 16th in the morning?

    3 A. Now I'm no longer sure he was there. I'm not

    4 sure he was there at all.

    5 Q. Thank you.

    6 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Thank you.

    7 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Counsel

    8 Slokovic-Glumac.

    9 No questions?

    10 I have one or two questions for the witness.

    11 Mr. Vidovic, was there any snow in the depression on

    12 the 16th and 17th of April, '93, when you were there?

    13 A. Well, there was hardly any snow. Perhaps in

    14 some of the smaller depressions there was a bit of

    15 snow, but there wasn't snow all over the place. There

    16 were bits of snow, as far as I can remember.

    17 JUDGE CASSESE: Patches of snow?

    18 A. Yes. Yes. Yes, you can put it that way,

    19 too. Yes.

    20 JUDGE CASSESE: And tell me, did you sit or

    21 lie when staying in the depression? I understand you

    22 spent two days there, so did you spend all the time

    23 there just standing?

    24 A. Well, sometimes we would sit down, although

    25 it was a bit cold, but we'd stand most of the time.



  28. 1 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. All right. There

    2 are no other questions. Thank you, Mr. Vidovic, for

    3 testifying in court. You may now be released.

    4 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Mr. President, I

    5 thought that our next witness would come after the

    6 break, and I just wish to say that the witness who is

    7 going to testify now would like protective measures,

    8 she'd like a pseudonym, in view of the place where she

    9 lives, and she is rather frightened for her children

    10 and for her own safety.

    11 JUDGE CASSESE: Do you want a pseudonym plus

    12 a closed session?

    13 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Just a pseudonym.

    14 During part of the hearing, during the

    15 examination-in-chief, we can close the session only

    16 when she speaks of herself and her family members, so

    17 we can start in closed session, and after that there

    18 can be an open session.

    19 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. All right.

    20 (Closed session)

    21 (The witness entered court)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)



  29. 1

    2

    3

    4

    5

    6

    7

    8

    9

    10

    11

    12

    13 Page 8516 redacted in closed session

    14

    15

    16

    17

    18

    19

    20

    21

    22

    23

    24

    25



  30. 1

    2

    3

    4

    5

    6

    7

    8

    9

    10

    11

    12

    13 Page 8517 redacted in closed session

    14

    15

    16

    17

    18

    19

    20

    21

    22

    23

    24

    25



  31. 1

    2

    3

    4

    5

    6

    7

    8

    9

    10

    11

    12

    13 Page 8518 redacted in closed session

    14

    15

    16

    17

    18

    19

    20

    21

    22

    23

    24

    25



  32. 1

    2

    3

    4

    5

    6

    7

    8

    9

    10

    11

    12

    13 Page 8519 redacted in closed session

    14

    15

    16

    17

    18

    19

    20

    21

    22

    23

    24

    25



  33. 1

    2

    3

    4

    5

    6

    7

    8

    9

    10

    11

    12

    13 Page 8520 redacted in closed session

    14

    15

    16

    17

    18

    19

    20

    21

    22

    23

    24

    25



  34. 1

    2

    3

    4

    5

    6

    7

    8

    9

    10

    11

    12

    13 Page 8521 redacted in closed session

    14

    15

    16

    17

    18

    19

    20

    21

    22

    23

    24

    25



  35. 1

    2

    3

    4

    5

    6

    7

    8

    9

    10

    11

    12

    13 Page 8522 redacted in closed session

    14

    15

    16

    17

    18

    19

    20

    21

    22

    23

    24

    25



  36. 1 (redacted)

    2 (redacted)

    3 (redacted)

    4 (redacted)

    5 (redacted)

    6 (redacted)

    7 (redacted)

    8 (redacted)

    9 (redacted)

    10 (redacted)

    11 (redacted)

    12 (redacted)

    13 (redacted)

    14 (redacted)

    15 (redacted)

    16 (redacted)

    17 (redacted)

    18 (redacted)

    19 (redacted)

    20 (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)



  37. 1

    2

    3

    4

    5

    6

    7

    8

    9

    10

    11

    12

    13 page 8524 redacted closed session

    14

    15

    16

    17

    18

    19

    20

    21

    22

    23

    24

    25



  38. 1

    2

    3

    4

    5

    6

    7

    8

    9

    10

    11

    12

    13 Pages 8525 to 8564 redacted in closed session

    14

    15

    16

    17

    18

    19

    20

    21

    22

    23

    24

    25



  1. 1 (redacted)

    2 (redacted)

    3 (redacted)

    4 (redacted)

    5 (redacted)

    6 (redacted)

    7 (redacted)

    8 (redacted)

    9 (redacted)

    10 (redacted)

    11 (redacted)

    12 (redacted)

    13 (redacted)

    14 (redacted)

    15 (redacted)

    16 --- Recess taken at 12.05 p.m.

    17 --- On resuming at 12.20 p.m.

    18 (Open session)

    19 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning, Mr. Vidovic.

    20 Will you please stand and make the solemn declaration.

    21 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

    22 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

    23 truth.

    24 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may sit

    25 down.



  2. 1 Counsel Radovic?

    2 WITNESS: MIRKO VIDOVIC

    3 Examined by Mr. Radovic:

    4 Q. Thank you. Mr. Vidovic, will you please

    5 introduce yourself. You are Mirko Vidovic. Could we

    6 hear your father's name, please?

    7 MR. RADOVIC: Oh, excuse me, excuse me.

    8 Colleague Krajina will be the second examiner in

    9 chief. Will you please bear this in mind. Thank you?

    10 A. My name is Mirko Vidovic. My father's name

    11 is Jozo. 29 September, 1953, is my date of birth, at

    12 Pirici, municipality of Vitez.

    13 Q. In 1992, what were your family's

    14 circumstances?

    15 A. In 1992, my wife and children --

    16 Q. No, what I mean is, were you married?

    17 A. Yes, I was married. That's what I'm telling

    18 you.

    19 Q. And how many children did you have?

    20 A. Two.

    21 Q. Will you tell us if your wife had any family

    22 in Germany?

    23 A. Yes, she did.

    24 Q. Whom?

    25 A. She had her mother and a brother.



  3. 1 Q. Until 1992, did you hold a steady job?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. We've already coached you here. Did you hold

    4 a job?

    5 A. Yes, I did.

    6 Q. Who did you work for at the trading company?

    7 What were you?

    8 A. A tradesman.

    9 Q. And your seniority is what?

    10 A. 18 years.

    11 Q. Right. And now we have your general

    12 particulars, and now we shall proceed to talking about

    13 the reasons for which you were called to testify here.

    14 We're first going back to 1991, when the

    15 first free elections took place in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    16 Do you remember that?

    17 A. I do.

    18 Q. Did you go out and vote?

    19 A. Yes. Yes, I did.

    20 Q. Could you tell us something about political

    21 developments in the municipality of Vitez following the

    22 first elections?

    23 A. I'm not actively engaged in politics, but as

    24 a citizen, I went out and cast my ballot.

    25 Q. But what was happening politically after the



  4. 1 elections?

    2 A. Well, I'm not interested in politics, and I

    3 do not know.

    4 Q. So when it comes to political relations among

    5 leading parties and Croats and Muslims, you cannot tell

    6 us anything?

    7 A. I cannot tell you anything. I do not know.

    8 Q. Do you know anything about the village

    9 guards, village watches?

    10 A. Well, there were some.

    11 Q. So will you tell us what it is that you

    12 know?

    13 A. Well, we heard -- that is, I heard that there

    14 were some gangs -- that gangs were going around and

    15 looting, and I looked after my house, as everybody else

    16 did.

    17 Q. So everybody looked after his own house, but

    18 when I ask you about village guards --

    19 A. That means several people in a village --

    20 Q. Will you please wait for me to finish the

    21 question and then answer it?

    22 So the question is: Do you know anything

    23 about the village guards?

    24 A. No, I don't.

    25 Q. But did you ever go on a village guard?



  5. 1 A. Also, I did.

    2 Q. Since when?

    3 A. In 1992 -- well, it could have been September

    4 or August.

    5 Q. Was it then when you started?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. And who did you stand guard with mostly?

    8 A. With Mirjan Kupreskic usually.

    9 Q. Who? I'm sorry, I did not hear you.

    10 A. Mirjan Kupreskic.

    11 Q. Was it always that you stood guard with him

    12 or were there some other combinations?

    13 A. Well, there were others too. We changed. We

    14 were not always the same.

    15 Q. Right. So tell us now, before the first

    16 conflict which broke out on the 20th of October, 1992,

    17 what did this guard duty look like? To begin with, did

    18 you do your military duty?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. Do you know the difference between guard and

    21 patrol?

    22 A. Sure.

    23 Q. Will you please tell us what the difference

    24 is?

    25 A. Well, guards are guards and the patrol is a



  6. 1 patrol. The patrol moves about and guards stand in one

    2 place.

    3 Q. So these village guards, did you go on patrol

    4 or did you stand guard?

    5 A. In patrols.

    6 Q. Now, will you please stand up and show on

    7 this aerial photograph where your house was?

    8 A. Here (indicating).

    9 Q. Will you tell us who your neighbours were,

    10 Croats and Muslims? So will you please indicate your

    11 neighbour's house and say who was the Croat and who was

    12 a Muslim?

    13 A. This is a neighbour, Zoran Kupreskic

    14 (indicating). Mirjan Kupreskic here (indicating).

    15 That is his parents' house (indicating). Here,

    16 across -- over there were Muslims (indicating).

    17 Q. Could you please tell us?

    18 A. This is Sulejman Pezer here (indicating),

    19 Smajl Pezer (indicating), and down there, there are

    20 also some (indicating). I can't remember the names.

    21 Q. As you are standing by this aerial

    22 photograph, I will ask you something that I intended to

    23 ask you later, so what Pudzine Kuce means to you?

    24 Tell us first what is Pudzine Kuce and then

    25 you will show it.



  7. 1 A. Pudzine Kuce are from Niko Sakic to Jozo

    2 Verbac.

    3 Q. What is it? Is it a part of the village or

    4 what?

    5 A. Yes, it is part of the village.

    6 Q. Yes. That's how you should tell us so we

    7 understand what you are talking about.

    8 So from the first house in Pudzine Kuce to

    9 the last house in Pudzine Kuce, if you take the road,

    10 what is the distance?

    11 A. It should be about four or 500 metres.

    12 Q. How many metres did you say, say 400 or 500

    13 metres? My colleague tells me that we don't have

    14 exactly the definition of Pudzine -- the boundary of

    15 Pudzine Kuce. Which is the house in Pudzine Kuce?

    16 A. First is Niko Sakic's to Jozo Vrebac.

    17 Q. Will you please show us? Will you use the

    18 pointer from the initial point to the final point?

    19 A. Here down to here (indicating).

    20 Q. Could you follow the road? Could you show

    21 with this pointer from the first to the last house

    22 along the road so that we can see the distance? Can

    23 you not find your way about this photograph? Would you

    24 rather that we turn it some other direction, the

    25 photograph?



  8. 1 A. Here up to here (indicating).

    2 Q. Are you sure you're not confused? Can you

    3 show it to us or can you not do it? Tell us, would you

    4 rather that we turn this photograph so that we put

    5 north upward, as usually is the case with us? Perhaps

    6 you will be more familiar if we turn it. Would you

    7 please do that? We have north facing up. Once again.

    8 Once again.

    9 Now, north is -- we have north up there and

    10 south is down there, and you can try now. Could you

    11 please move sideways so that the Judges can see what

    12 you are pointing at?

    13 So can you show it to us or not? If you

    14 can't, we shall give it up. Right. I see you cannot

    15 do that. You can take your seat again, but could you

    16 please list the houses that make part of Pudzine Kuce.

    17 Could you hear my question?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. Will you please repeat the houses which make

    20 part of Pudzine Kuce, that is, the owners of these

    21 houses?

    22 A. Pudzine Kuce we have Samijas, Bilics,

    23 Strmonjas, Santic, Vidovic, and that's it.

    24 Q. Could you give us first names, because when

    25 you say "Vidovics," there are so many of them. So it's



  9. 1 not one house, there are several houses.

    2 A. Well, there's Milutin Vidovic, there is Alojz

    3 Vidovic, there is Miroslav Pudza, Milan Samija, Miro.

    4 There are quite a number of them.

    5 Q. But did any Muslims live in Pudzine Kuce?

    6 A. Yes. Ramo Bilic, Zijad Bilic, Strmonja. I

    7 don't know their first names.

    8 Q. So -- and they all live in the locality

    9 called Pudzine Kuce. From the first to the last house

    10 it is about how much?

    11 A. Four or five hundred metres.

    12 Q. You said you went on guard duty with Mirjan

    13 usually but at times with other people too. How did it

    14 come about that you were on guard with a particular

    15 individual? Did you have a schedule, a timetable, or

    16 did you discuss it together and decide together, or

    17 what?

    18 A. Well, we talked it over together and decided

    19 how we could go on patrol.

    20 Q. What did you discuss, who would go with whom,

    21 or time, hours, or what?

    22 A. Both. Who would go with whom and the length

    23 of time one would be on patrol.

    24 Q. And how long did a shift take?

    25 A. Two hours, about two hours.



  10. 1 Q. Tell us, did Muslims patrol as guards too?

    2 A. They did.

    3 Q. And during those guards, and I'm referring to

    4 a time before the first conflict, during your patrols

    5 would you come across Muslim patrols too?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. What happened then when you happened on one

    8 another?

    9 A. Well, what happened. We would stop, talk,

    10 chat for a while and then go on.

    11 Q. Did you at times walk and chat together?

    12 A. I can't remember.

    13 Q. At the time, were you always on the ground or

    14 what did this guard duty look like? Did you patrol all

    15 the time, or would you sit down, or did you enter a

    16 house or something? Tell us, give us -- spice up your

    17 description.

    18 A. Yes. We walked around, or we watched TV, or

    19 we entered a house, have a cup of coffee and some

    20 support.

    21 Q. But where did you watch television? You

    22 didn't carry a TV set with you.

    23 A. Well, we would do it at Mirjan's.

    24 Q. And as you watched television what happened

    25 to the guards?



  11. 1 A. Well, we guarded.

    2 Q. No, but while you watched television did

    3 anybody stand guard?

    4 A. No.

    5 Q. Did you drop by the school at that time

    6 before the first conflict?

    7 A. Yes, I did.

    8 Q. Alone or with your partner?

    9 A. Alone and with my partner.

    10 Q. Tell us now, until when was it that you went

    11 to the school?

    12 A. Since when?

    13 Q. No, until when.

    14 A. I think it was September, mid-September.

    15 Q. And what happened then so that you stopped

    16 going to the school?

    17 A. We stopped -- well, I came to the school --

    18 Q. With whom?

    19 A. I came with Mirjan Kupreskic.

    20 Q. And what happened then?

    21 A. We entered the school, and they told us that,

    22 one, Pezer, that we were not welcome, that radio

    23 station --

    24 Q. No. What are you talking about, radio

    25 station? You talked to someone not with a radio



  12. 1 station but over a radio?

    2 A. That we had to converse over a radio station.

    3 Q. Did they tell you with whom?

    4 A. No.

    5 Q. Did they tell you what they had to discuss

    6 over a radio station?

    7 A. No. They just told us they had to converse

    8 with somebody over the radio station and to go out.

    9 Q. Were they nice or did they use rough words?

    10 A. No, they did not use rough words.

    11 Q. So, in other words, they asked you to leave?

    12 A. Yes, they asked us to leave.

    13 Q. After that did you come to the school?

    14 A. No.

    15 Q. Did you notify anyone of the event?

    16 A. No.

    17 Q. Well, you have answered that question

    18 already, but what was in that school, in fact? What

    19 was there? Why did the Muslims ask you to leave that

    20 building? What was in there?

    21 A. Inside they had a radio station.

    22 Q. Was there somebody by that radio station

    23 around the clock, 24 hours?

    24 A. That I do not know.

    25 Q. Now, tell me, as you were on guard duty did



  13. 1 you have some kind of a commander?

    2 A. No. No, we did not.

    3 Q. And were you horizontally linked with other

    4 guards in other villages, and did all of these guards

    5 have a command that could issue orders to these guards?

    6 A. No.

    7 Q. You mean to the best of your knowledge?

    8 A. Yes, to the best of my knowledge.

    9 Q. Tell me, do you remember who you were on

    10 guard duty with the day before the conflict, that is to

    11 say, on the 19th of October? With whom were you on

    12 guard duty?

    13 A. With Dragan Vidovic.

    14 Q. And how come you were not on guard duty with

    15 Mirjan on that occasion? You said that most often you

    16 stood guard with Mirjan.

    17 A. Well, Mirjan, when he went to play his

    18 instrument, he went to play at a wedding, and he was

    19 tired, and he couldn't go out, and he had to get some

    20 rest and get some sleep, and then he was late that

    21 day.

    22 Q. Now that we've mentioned this music, did

    23 Mirjan miss his guard duty for the same reason on

    24 previous occasions too?

    25 A. Yes.



  14. 1 Q. Tell me, how many of you were there in your

    2 part of the village who stood guard duty for that part

    3 of the village?

    4 A. There was five or six or seven of us.

    5 Q. And tell me, how often would you have to go

    6 on guard duty per week?

    7 A. Well, not too often.

    8 Q. What do you mean not too often if there was

    9 only seven of you?

    10 A. Well, two hours, and then two hours we didn't

    11 have to go out, and that's the way it was.

    12 Q. On the 19th or the 20th, did you see

    13 something unusual?

    14 A. I did not.

    15 Q. So let me put it this way: Did you see any

    16 soldiers getting down from Vrhovine and Gornji Ahmici?

    17 A. No.

    18 Q. How long were you on guard duty on the night

    19 between the 19th and the 20th? Which shift did you

    20 have?

    21 A. From 23.00 hours until 1.00.

    22 Q. And during your guard duty did anything

    23 unusual take place?

    24 A. No, nothing.

    25 Q. And while we're on the subject of village



  15. 1 guards, tell me, did you have any instructions as to

    2 what you were supposed to do if there was some kind of

    3 an incident in the village? Were you supposed to

    4 intervene?

    5 A. I would call the civilian police.

    6 Q. All right. But, for example, if a platoon of

    7 Muslim soldiers would encounter you and your partner

    8 and you didn't manage to call the police, what would

    9 you do then?

    10 A. I'd run away.

    11 Q. When you stood guard duty until the first

    12 conflict, did you do that in civilian clothes or in

    13 uniform?

    14 A. In civilian clothes.

    15 Q. Did you have any kind of special insignia on

    16 your civilian clothes?

    17 A. No, we did not.

    18 Q. Did you have any weapons? Again, I'm talking

    19 about the time until the first conflict.

    20 A. No.

    21 Q. You didn't carry any weapons when you went on

    22 guard duty?

    23 A. We, we did. We had a hunting gun.

    24 Q. But a hunting gun is also a weapon, isn't

    25 it? So you did have --



  16. 1 A. Well, we did when we were doing our guard

    2 duty.

    3 Q. Did you have any weapons of your own?

    4 A. No, I did not.

    5 Q. Which weapons did you take on guard duty?

    6 A. I, when I would take over the shift, I would

    7 have a gun.

    8 Q. Which gun would you have?

    9 A. I had a hunting gun.

    10 Q. A carbine or a double-barrelled gun?

    11 A. I'm not very good at this.

    12 Q. Did the rifle have two barrels or one?

    13 A. I don't know.

    14 Q. What do you mean you don't know? You were

    15 carrying the gun, and you didn't know whether it had

    16 two barrels or one?

    17 A. Well, I don't know. I never looked -- I

    18 never looked at it during the day.

    19 Q. What do you know about the first day of the

    20 conflict, the 20th of October, 1992? When did you wake

    21 up and how?

    22 A. I woke up around 6.30 in the morning. My

    23 brother telephoned me.

    24 Q. All right. What did your brother tell you on

    25 the phone?



  17. 1 A. He said, "What's up?"

    2 Q. And what did you answer?

    3 A. He said, "Go to see our mother and our

    4 sister. Go and seek shelter for them, because there's

    5 going to be some kind of attack."

    6 Q. Did he say that there was an attack already

    7 or that there was shooting?

    8 A. I didn't hear any shooting.

    9 Q. So what did he say? What's your sister's

    10 name?

    11 A. Gordana.

    12 Q. What's her last name now?

    13 A. Now her last name is Cuic.

    14 Q. What about her maiden name?

    15 A. Her maiden name was Vidovic.

    16 Q. She already testified before this court,

    17 didn't she?

    18 A. Yes, she did.

    19 Q. Did you reach the house where your mother and

    20 sister were?

    21 A. Yes, I did.

    22 Q. And what did you see?

    23 A. I said that they should go to the shelter.

    24 Q. Did you manage -- did you stay on to see

    25 whether they put the cow away as you told them to do



  18. 1 and seek shelter, or did you proceed?

    2 A. As soon as I left, they put the cow away.

    3 Q. What was more important to them, to hide

    4 themselves or to hide the cow.

    5 A. Both.

    6 Q. And what did you do then? What did you do

    7 then?

    8 A. I went to a valley, a depression.

    9 Q. And who did you see there?

    10 A. I saw Zoran and Ivica Kupreskic, and I can't

    11 remember who else was there.

    12 Q. Tell me, did you help someone find shelter

    13 for their families?

    14 A. I didn't, but I know who helped Zoran and

    15 Mirjan Kupreskic to find shelter for their families

    16 near Pudzine Kuce.

    17 Q. And how do you know that?

    18 A. Well, they came back and they told me.

    19 Q. Who are these people who helped them? Did

    20 you remember who helped them?

    21 A. Milutin Vidovic, Zdravko Vrebac, and

    22 Dragance.

    23 Q. What is this Dragance's name otherwise?

    24 A. Well, his name is Dragan Vidovic, but we call

    25 him Dragance.



  19. 1 Q. So it's Dragan Vidovic, called Dragance; is

    2 that correct?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. And when you all assembled in the depression,

    5 was anybody carrying any weapons?

    6 A. No.

    7 Q. No one was armed? Absolutely no one? You

    8 cannot say "we had." A group consists of individuals.

    9 You cannot speak on behalf of everyone. You're

    10 speaking in your own name. What did you personally

    11 see? What are the weapons that you personally saw that

    12 day? Did you see any weapons that day?

    13 A. No, I did not.

    14 Q. No weapons?

    15 A. No weapons.

    16 Q. Not even the guards brought in weapons?

    17 A. Well, the guards came, and we were there, and

    18 I didn't see anything when I came there. I went to see

    19 my mother and my sister and the children, and I

    20 couldn't see anything.

    21 Q. After this first conflict, did you continue

    22 with guard duty?

    23 A. No, we did not.

    24 Q. You did not at all?

    25 A. I don't remember.



  20. 1 Q. Tell us, after this first conflict, did the

    2 Muslims leave Ahmici?

    3 A. Afterwards, I found out that they had left.

    4 Q. Did you see them leave?

    5 A. No, I did not.

    6 Q. And did you hear about this, whether all the

    7 Muslims had left, or had some remained?

    8 A. I heard that some had remained and that some

    9 had left. But ...

    10 Q. Did you hear why they had left?

    11 A. That, I do not know.

    12 Q. Did you hear why this first conflict had

    13 taken place?

    14 A. I'm not familiar with that. I don't know.

    15 Q. You didn't hear anything about blocking the

    16 road by the cemetery?

    17 A. Yes, I heard about it, three days later,

    18 perhaps four days later.

    19 Q. And what did you finally hear? What was the

    20 true reason for this conflict? What is this that you

    21 heard three or four days later?

    22 A. I don't know. I just know that the road

    23 between Vitez and Busovaca had been closed off.

    24 Q. What did you hear? Who had closed off this

    25 road?



  21. 1 A. I don't know. I just know that it was closed

    2 off.

    3 Q. And after this first conflict, you said that

    4 some Muslims had left; did they come back?

    5 A. They did. I heard that they had returned.

    6 Q. And did you hear how come they came back?

    7 A. Well, I heard there were some kind of

    8 negotiations. I don't know.

    9 Q. Were you present at these negotiations?

    10 A. No.

    11 Q. Did you hear whether they had one round of

    12 negotiations or several rounds?

    13 A. I don't know that either.

    14 Q. Do you know what was negotiated about? Were

    15 there any conditions that were put forth for the return

    16 of the Muslims?

    17 A. I don't know. I'm not familiar with that.

    18 Q. Did you see them come back, finally?

    19 A. Well, a few days later, I don't know, six or

    20 seven days.

    21 Q. Tell me, did you do your military service in

    22 the JNA, the former Yugoslav army?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. What did you do? Where did you do your

    25 military service?



  22. 1 A. I was in the ABiH.

    2 Q. Did you have a record as a reservist in the

    3 former military department?

    4 A. I was registered in the records, of course.

    5 Q. You mean now? So you were part of the

    6 reserve corps?

    7 A. No, I was not.

    8 Q. What do you mean? You were not in the

    9 reserve corps of the JNA? If you were in the military

    10 department records, that means that you were in the

    11 reserve corps.

    12 A. Well, I didn't receive anything from them

    13 saying that I was a reservist.

    14 Q. When you came back from the army, did you

    15 report to the military department?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. Did they enter something into your military

    18 booklet, as it was called?

    19 A. Yes, they did.

    20 Q. Did you get a so-called VES?

    21 A. Yes, I did.

    22 Q. And then after the first conflict you said

    23 that you did not recall whether you went on guard duty

    24 in the village. Tell me, at any time, did you become a

    25 member of the HVO, of the military component?



  23. 1 A. No, I did not.

    2 Q. Were you mobilised?

    3 A. No, I was not.

    4 Q. Do you know whether any of your neighbours,

    5 specifically the Kupreskic brothers, whether they were

    6 members of the HVO?

    7 A. No.

    8 Q. Do you know whether anybody from your

    9 immediate environment was mobilised into the military

    10 wing of the HVO?

    11 A. As far as I know, no.

    12 Q. And now, at the beginning you started talking

    13 about something that you're supposed to tell us about

    14 now, and that is where was your wife and where were

    15 your children during the first conflict?

    16 A. My wife was in Germany in '92. In April, she

    17 left with the children.

    18 Q. Where did she go to?

    19 A. She went to stay with her mother.

    20 Q. You said that her mother had worked in

    21 Germany for a long time?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. How long?

    24 A. She's already earned her retirement pension.

    25 Q. She stayed in Germany, and she lives there



  24. 1 off her pension?

    2 A. No, she returned last year to Croatia. She

    3 lived there for 25 years. She worked and lived there

    4 for 25 years.

    5 Q. Did you ever go to visit your family in

    6 Germany?

    7 A. Yes, I did.

    8 Q. How many times?

    9 A. Twice.

    10 Q. When did you go for the first time?

    11 A. The first time I went in September.

    12 Q. Which year?

    13 A. '92.

    14 Q. Where did your wife live?

    15 A. In Frankfurt,.

    16 Q. In Frankfurt am Main?

    17 A. In Frankfurt am Main.

    18 Q. Did she get refugee status there, or what?

    19 A. She got refugee status.

    20 Q. What kind of visa did she get?

    21 A. A Duldung visa.

    22 Q. When you visited her for the first time, did

    23 you have a passport?

    24 A. Yes, I did.

    25 Q. Whose passport?



  25. 1 A. An old Yugoslav passport.

    2 Q. That is to say a Yugoslav passport from the

    3 SFRY?

    4 A. Yes, from the SFRY.

    5 Q. The state that collapsed?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. Did you need an Austrian visa as you entered

    8 Austria with that passport?

    9 A. Yes, I did.

    10 Q. For Austria?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. For Germany?

    13 A. For Germany, yes. For Austria, I did not.

    14 Q. Please be careful and listen to my questions,

    15 and then answer my questions. So you entered Austria

    16 without a visa?

    17 A. Yes, without a visa, I entered Austria.

    18 Q. And Germany?

    19 A. For Germany I needed a visa.

    20 Q. Did you get a visa for this first entry?

    21 A. Yes, I did.

    22 Q. For where? Where did you get the visa?

    23 A. I got it in Salzburg, at the border. That's

    24 where they gave me a visa, and I got in.

    25 Q. And how long did you stay with your wife and



  26. 1 children?

    2 A. I stayed about 15 or 20 days.

    3 MR. RADOVIC: Mr. President, if I have

    4 understood things correctly, we're going to have a

    5 lunch break at 1.00.

    6 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Do you have many more

    7 questions?

    8 MR. RADOVIC: Quite a few.

    9 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. Let us take a

    10 break now. We will resume at 2.30.

    11 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.

    12

    13

    14

    15

    16

    17

    18

    19

    20

    21

    22

    23

    24

    25



  27. 1 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: Good afternoon.

    3 Counsel Radovic.

    4 MR. RADOVIC: Good afternoon.

    5 Q. Mr. Vidovic, did you have a rest during the

    6 break?

    7 A. Yes, thank you.

    8 Q. So we reached the point when you went to

    9 Germany to visit your family. You crossed the boarder

    10 with the Yugoslav passport, and you obtained a visa,

    11 the German visa in Salzburg.

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. And when you arrived in Germany, how long did

    14 you stay there?

    15 A. It was 1992, in the month of September. I

    16 was a tourist, and I returned after 10 or 15 days

    17 because I had to go back to work.

    18 Q. How did you support yourself in Germany? Did

    19 you work or were you a guest?

    20 A. I was a guest. I'm referring to 1992.

    21 Q. And when did you go there again?

    22 A. On the 22nd of March, 1993.

    23 Q. I'm sorry, I did not hear you.

    24 A. I left Pirici on the 22nd of March, 1993.

    25 That is when I left the municipality of Pirici.



  28. 1 Q. Before you left Pirici, municipality of

    2 Vitez, did you have to ask for permission?

    3 A. Yes, I did.

    4 Q. What kind of a passport did you have at that

    5 time?

    6 A. Still the same one, the old one, the

    7 Yugoslavia Slav, the former one.

    8 Q. Did you have the Croatian passport too?

    9 A. No.

    10 Q. And when you left Vitez, did you have to seek

    11 permission from someone?

    12 A. Yes. We needed permission to go through

    13 Croatia, I mean, a pass through Croatia.

    14 Q. Who did you ask it from?

    15 A. I went to the municipality to ask them to

    16 allow me to go there and bring my family home.

    17 Q. Was it easy to get that certificate or did

    18 you have to ask, to beg, kneel down, or what, or did

    19 you simply apply for it and they give you the

    20 permission so that you could get out of

    21 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    22 A. Yes, it's true.

    23 Q. What means of transportation did you use?

    24 A. I had an official car to Zagreb.

    25 Q. And from Zagreb?



  29. 1 A. In Zagreb I waited for the visa, because I

    2 needed a visa to cross over.

    3 Q. At the German embassy in Zagreb?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. Did you get it?

    6 A. I waited for three days. I went back to my

    7 brother, in Rijeka, in Croatia, and I spend two days

    8 with him, then I went to Germany. I did not get a visa

    9 but I started to Germany.

    10 Q. And how was it at the Austrian and German

    11 border?

    12 A. I crossed, illegally, the boarder because I

    13 didn't get --

    14 Q. Well, didn't you try to cross it lawfully?

    15 A. Yes. I tried to cross with a passport and I

    16 was given Zuruck.

    17 Q. So why?

    18 A. Because I did not have the visa.

    19 Q. So how did you cross the border?

    20 A. I crossed on a bus.

    21 Q. So when you crossed into Germany for the

    22 second time, when was that? What did you say?

    23 A. When I crossed over it was the 1st of April,

    24 1993.

    25 Q. And from the 1st of April, 1993 until when



  30. 1 did you not come back to Vitez?

    2 A. Until '95, June '95.

    3 Q. Is that when you came back?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. Alone or with your family?

    6 A. First I came alone because in my sister was

    7 getting married in June. Twenty days later I went back

    8 to Germany and then came back home with my family.

    9 Q. When you entered Germany illegally, so when

    10 you were already in Germany, did you try to go

    11 somewhere legal to make your stay in Germany legal?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. Did you support yourself or what did you do?

    14 A. My wife worked and I also worked, even if

    15 illegally, so that we both worked.

    16 Q. And when you were leaving Germany, what

    17 papers did you have to get out?

    18 A. Well, I had the passport, because my brother

    19 sent me from Umag the passport to Germany, and he sent

    20 it to me through a colleague.

    21 Q. In other words, you now had a Croatian

    22 passport.

    23 A. Yes, I then had a Croatia passport.

    24 Q. But tell me, when you went to fetch your

    25 family, why didn't you then come back with your family?



  31. 1 A. I did not understand you.

    2 Q. You said that you went to Germany for the

    3 second time to bring your family, or to visit your

    4 family. Never mind. Then how is it that you did not

    5 return to Vitez?

    6 A. Well, I arrived late, two days, so that I

    7 could stay longer, until the 16th or 17th.

    8 Q. So why didn't you come back?

    9 A. My brother called me. I don't exactly

    10 remember the date. When he started, he told -- I said

    11 we should pack, and he told us, "Don't do that, because

    12 there is a war over here."

    13 Q. That is the brother in Vitez who let you know

    14 that?

    15 A. Yes, that was the brother in Vitez.

    16 Q. But when you returned to Vitez once and for

    17 all, did you suffer any consequences for having stayed

    18 abroad?

    19 A. No.

    20 Q. Would you please then repeat just when did

    21 your mother-in-law, that is your wife's mother, when

    22 did she go to Germany for work?

    23 A. Well, she's worked there are for 20 or 25

    24 years.

    25 Q. You wouldn't know the dates; would you?



  32. 1 A. No.

    2 Q. And when did she retire?

    3 A. She retired in 1990 --

    4 Q. What?

    5 A. -- 94, I think. I'm not quite sure.

    6 Q. Did she come back to Vitez?

    7 A. No, she didn't back to Vitez. She went to

    8 Croatia, near Osejak.

    9 Q. And when did she come to Croatia?

    10 A. Well, it must be a year.

    11 Q. And my last question, during the first

    12 conflict, you were in Vitez then. Do you know whose

    13 house your sister and mother sought shelter in?

    14 A. In my brother Rudo.

    15 Q. Rudo what?

    16 A. Rudo Vidovic.

    17 MR. RADOVIC: Thank you, Mr. President. I

    18 have no further questions.

    19 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Krajina.

    20 MR. KRAJINA: Your Honours, my colleague,

    21 Par, will ask questions of this witness.

    22 MR. PAR: Thank you, Your Honours.

    23 Cross-examined by Mr. Par:

    24 Q. Mr. Vidovic, I will ask a few more questions

    25 related to your departure to Germany and your stay in



  33. 1 Germany. You answered that you left Pirici on the 22nd

    2 of March, 1993 to go to Germany, and that on that

    3 occasion the HVO gave you a permit to travel. Now I

    4 will show you a document and ask you if it is that

    5 certificate, if it is that permit which was issued to

    6 you.

    7 MR. PAR: Will you please, Mr. Usher?

    8 THE REGISTRAR: Document is marked D28/3.

    9 MR. PAR:

    10 Q. Will you please have a look at this document

    11 and just tell us, for the record, who is the subject,

    12 what are the dates, and the purpose, the destination,

    13 and things like that?

    14 A. This is a permit to Mr. Mirko Vidovic, from

    15 the 22nd of March, 1993 until the 11th of April, 1993,

    16 to travel to Germany, transit through Croatia --

    17 Republic of Croatia for the purpose of taking his

    18 family home.

    19 Q. Thank you. I should also like to ask you:

    20 Can you see here the boarder permit of the Republic of

    21 Croatia, that is, can we see the date when you entered

    22 the Republic of Croatia on the basis of this permit?

    23 A. Yes, I can see it. 22nd of March, 1993.

    24 Q. And that is the border crossing?

    25 A. Kamensko.



  34. 1 Q. Now, I want to have a look at your passport.

    2 MR. PAR: Mr. Usher, would you be so kind?

    3 THE REGISTRAR: Document is marked D29/3.

    4 MR. PAR:

    5 Q. Will you please look at it and tell us if

    6 this is the photocopy of the passport that you used at

    7 the time?

    8 A. Yes. This is the former Yugoslav passport.

    9 Q. Will you please turn to page 2 where there

    10 are all these stamps, to see if we can see that Zuruck

    11 from Germany, as you called it, that stamp. Page 2?

    12 A. There is no date.

    13 Q. There is no date, but do you see there

    14 written Deutschland Bundesrepublik? Do you see it says

    15 that?

    16 A. I do not.

    17 Q. But down there you have Zuruck visa, so is

    18 that the stamp that you returned across the boarder?

    19 A. Yes, I do but I can't see the date.

    20 Q. There is no date. All right. Thank you.

    21 So this is all. We do not need the passport

    22 now.

    23 You said you stayed in Germany illegally

    24 while you were away with your family. Did you ask for

    25 any papers from the City of the Frankfurt am Main at



  35. 1 that time?

    2 A. Yes, I did.

    3 Q. Would you please tell us what kind of a

    4 document you applied for and what form?

    5 A. Well, I applied for -- I said I had lost my

    6 passport and that I wanted to go to Croatia. Then they

    7 gave me a paper so that I could get out of Germany.

    8 MR. PAR: Now, Mr. Usher, I would again like

    9 to ask you to show this document to the witness.

    10 THE REGISTRAR: Document D30/3.

    11 MR. PAR:

    12 Q. Mr. Vidovic, is that the document that you

    13 applied for from the city of Frankfurt?

    14 A. It is.

    15 Q. Please, on this document, we can see some

    16 dates. First, the 29th of July, '93. Could you tell

    17 us, what is this date?

    18 A. Well, this date means the day they applied to

    19 the police for this paper.

    20 Q. To get out of the country?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. And the 6th of August, '93?

    23 A. 6th of August means that I was to leave

    24 Germany on the 6th of August.

    25 Q. Does it mean, on the basis of this paper, you



  36. 1 were allowed to stay in Frankfurt until the 6th of

    2 August, and you say you stayed the there until June of

    3 1995?

    4 A. Because I did not have a document to cross, I

    5 spoke to my brother, and he said "Well, you can get out

    6 of Germany, but you cannot enter Slovenia with this

    7 paper."

    8 Q. But you left with a Croatian passport, with a

    9 completely different document?

    10 A. Yes, I left with a Croatian passport, but he

    11 submitted documents in Umag, and he said, "You have to

    12 wait until we get your passport ready for you."

    13 Q. So in June '95, you say you came to attend

    14 your sister's wedding. What is your sister's name?

    15 A. Gordana Vidovic. And now she is married,

    16 Cuic.

    17 Q. On the basis of what you said so far, you

    18 said that on the 22nd of March, '93, until June '95,

    19 you were in Germany. Does that mean that you spent in

    20 Germany all that time?

    21 A. Yes, it does.

    22 Q. That is, from the 21st of April, when you

    23 entered Germany, until June '95?

    24 A. Yes, it does.

    25 Q. Mr. Vidovic, a witness here said that on the



  37. 1 15th of April -- that is, on the eve of the Ahmici

    2 conflicts, he saw you sitting in the company of Vlatko

    3 Kupreskic and several soldiers in front of the Sutra

    4 store in Pirici. Could you tell us if that is true?

    5 A. That is impossible.

    6 Q. Thank you.

    7 MR. PAR: Thank you very much, Your Honours.

    8 I have no more questions.

    9 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    10 Mr. Terrier?

    11 MR. TERRIER: Thank you, Mr. President.

    12 Cross-examined by Mr. Terrier:

    13 Q. Good morning, Mr. Vidovic. My name is Franck

    14 Terrier. I'm one of the prosecutors representing the

    15 Office of the Prosecutor, and I'm going to ask a couple

    16 of questions of you if I may do so.

    17 First of all, Mr. Vidovic, can you tell us

    18 where you presently live?

    19 A. I live in Vitez, in the village of Pirici.

    20 Q. Do you mean the house which you showed

    21 earlier on in the photograph?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. Together with your family?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. Could you tell us what your occupation, your



  38. 1 professional occupation was in 1992 and '93?

    2 A. I was a salesman in a shop until the 21st of

    3 March, '93 -- 22nd -- no, the 21st, because on the 22nd

    4 I left for Germany.

    5 Q. Could you be more specific, Mr. Vidovic, as

    6 to this trade. What kind of trade was it, in what kind

    7 of field? Who were your business partners?

    8 A. My business partners were Muslims, there were

    9 also Serbs, and we worked together. It was a hardware

    10 store. We dealt in building materials.

    11 Q. And where was that shop or that company,

    12 Mr. Vidovic?

    13 A. In Vitez.

    14 Q. And were you the owner of that shop in

    15 building materials?

    16 A. No. I worked there.

    17 Q. Let us dwell for a moment on the village

    18 guards in which you took part, as you stated,

    19 especially so in 1992. Still, I would like to know

    20 whether at the time, in Pirici, Santici, Ahmici,

    21 whether there wasn't after all some kind of

    22 coordination of the village guards. Wasn't there

    23 anybody who was in charge of keeping a log, a roster of

    24 the people who were to take part in the guards, of the

    25 times and dates when these people were supposed to



  39. 1 patrol? Wasn't there some kind of coordination?

    2 A. No.

    3 Q. Who would ask you to go on a patrol?

    4 A. Nobody.

    5 Q. So you made up the decision on your own? You

    6 decided to go on a specific night, to go for a round of

    7 two hours on the village guard; is that so?

    8 A. We went, me and others, we heard that people

    9 were guarding the houses, so we did the same thing, and

    10 nobody assigned us.

    11 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be

    12 asked to articulate better what he is saying.

    13 MR. TERRIER:

    14 Q. Did you know Nenad Santic, Mr. Vidovic?

    15 A. Yes, sure, I knew him.

    16 Q. Were you in touch, did you have contacts,

    17 kind of a relationship with him?

    18 A. No.

    19 Q. Who is Dragan Vidovic in relation to you?

    20 A. He is my family, a relative.

    21 Q. Did your cousin not have any responsibility

    22 in organising the village guards?

    23 A. He did something, but it was with civil

    24 defence, the village civil defence, something like

    25 that.



  40. 1 Q. Somehow he had responsibilities; he was in

    2 charge of organising the village guards?

    3 A. Somebody perhaps was, I think, then, but that

    4 was the civil defence.

    5 Q. I'm merely trying to understand how things

    6 were working at the time. You have to understand

    7 that. You are telling me that your cousin, Dragan

    8 Vidovic, because he was in the civil defence, had some

    9 kind of responsibility in organising the village

    10 guards? Is that what you're telling us?

    11 A. Yes. No. He wasn't responsible. I don't

    12 know how to put it. We elected him to see who wanted

    13 to, so that we could have some timetable to know who

    14 was going when.

    15 Q. Well, if I understood you well, you told us

    16 following the first conflict, that is, after the 20th

    17 of October, 1992, the village guards were done away

    18 with, were suppressed; is that so?

    19 A. As far as I know, yes.

    20 Q. Are you absolutely certain of it, or are you

    21 simply saying that following the 20th of October, 1992,

    22 you no longer took part in the village guards?

    23 A. (No discernible response)

    24 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters could not

    25 understand what the witness said. I'm sorry.



  41. 1 MR. TERRIER:

    2 Q. Your answer has not been understood,

    3 Mr. Vidovic. I am going to repeat the question. Are

    4 you absolutely sure that the village guards were

    5 abolished following the first conflict, or is it more

    6 simply so that you no longer took part in them, and

    7 that therefore you thought that they were no longer

    8 happening?

    9 A. I did not take part.

    10 Q. You do not rule out, however, that the

    11 village guards would have been going on, but with other

    12 people, with other volunteers? Is that so?

    13 A. I did not notice that.

    14 Q. Let us talk about the time when your family

    15 left for Germany in April '92. Your mother had been

    16 living for many years in Germany. Who made the

    17 decision?

    18 A. My wife's mother was there. Her mother

    19 decided that. He called her from Germany and invited

    20 her to go there, so she went to Germany first in 1991

    21 for a month or two to work, and then she invited her

    22 over, with children, because in Croatia there was war,

    23 it was beginning in Bosnia, and she told her to go.

    24 Q. Oh, I had understood that you were the one

    25 who had decided that your wife and your children had to



  42. 1 go to Germany, but that wasn't so; is that right?

    2 A. No, you're right. This is not true.

    3 Q. Why was that decision made by your

    4 mother-in-law, by your wife's mother?

    5 A. She invited her to go there to work a little,

    6 make some money, and that woman supported us, so we

    7 were obliged to her. "Cross through Croatia because

    8 later on you won't be able to." And so she went.

    9 Q. So it is not actually because of the

    10 situation prevailing in Central Bosnia at the time, in

    11 April 1992, it is not for that reason that the decision

    12 was made by your mother-in-law?

    13 A. No.

    14 Q. We received a summary of your testimony in

    15 which it is stated that in 1992, you sent your wife and

    16 children to Germany so as to make sure that they were

    17 safe, but it isn't true, is it?

    18 A. It is not so.

    19 Q. You said a moment ago that in September '92,

    20 you paid a visit to your family?

    21 A. I returned after some 10 or 15 days because I

    22 went with a friend in his car, and that is how we went

    23 and came back. That was in September 1992.

    24 Q. Could you first tell us why you didn't go

    25 with your family in April '92, why you didn't go with



  43. 1 them to Germany?

    2 A. Well, there was nobody else in the house,

    3 nobody else lived there, so I had to look after the

    4 house, and I had to go to work, of course.

    5 Q. But couldn't you have found another job in

    6 Germany? This is nothing but a question, but I'm

    7 wondering. I don't have the answer for you, of course.

    8 A. Do what? When I don't know to do anything, I

    9 can't do anything.

    10 Q. Therefore in September '92 you drove with a

    11 friend in a car to go and visit your wife and children

    12 in Germany. What's that friend's name?

    13 A. Yes. The friend is from Croatia. I don't

    14 really know. We went together, and we came back 10 or

    15 15 days later.

    16 Q. What is his name?

    17 A. I don't know. I forgot. I can't remember.

    18 Q. You forgot?

    19 A. I forgot.

    20 Q. Whose car did you drive in?

    21 A. His car. His privately owned car.

    22 Q. And where did that friend live?

    23 A. The friend lived in Vitez, and in Split for a

    24 longer period of time. In Split and in Vitez.

    25 Q. Between Split and Vitez? Is that so?



  44. 1 A. Vitez and Split. He was born in Split, but

    2 he lived in Vitez. So I went with him.

    3 Q. And you can't remember his name?

    4 A. His first name was Miso, but I can't remember

    5 his last name. Miso. I can't remember his last name.

    6 Q. Where did you cross the border between Bosnia

    7 and Croatia?

    8 A. Kamensko.

    9 Q. And which route did you then follow from

    10 there on, if you remember?

    11 A. I can't remember this route. I don't know

    12 these roads very well.

    13 Q. How long was the journey, how many hours?

    14 A. Two days, a day. Two days.

    15 Q. Is it one or two days? Is that one or two

    16 days?

    17 A. Yes. Yes, or a day and a half or two.

    18 MR. TERRIER: Can I ask the usher to give

    19 Exhibit D29/3 to the witness?

    20 Q. Is this the passport from the former

    21 Yugoslavia which you had at the time of the journey?

    22 A. Yes. Yes.

    23 Q. You said that you behaved regularly, that you

    24 obtained a German visa in Salzburg, then crossed the

    25 border. On page 2 of the document, can you tell us



  45. 1 which are the stamps related to the first journey?

    2 A. I can't see. I can't see. I can't see.

    3 Well, September. I got the visa in September, and the

    4 date, the date for entering Germany, I think it was

    5 mid-September. I think that it was in mid-September

    6 that I got the visa in Salzburg. The visa was valid

    7 until the 25th of December, 1992.

    8 Q. Did you keep the original of that passport?

    9 A. I don't have the original here, it's at the

    10 hotel. It's an old one.

    11 Q. You told us that you then returned to Bosnia

    12 and that you went back to Germany towards the end of

    13 March 1993. What did you have in mind? What were your

    14 intentions in terms of your family?

    15 A. To go back home, naturally. To have my

    16 family return home.

    17 Q. As a matter of fact, you were going to get

    18 your family. That's what you had in mind. That's what

    19 you wanted to do in order to bring your family back to

    20 Pirici?

    21 A. Yes, my wife and my two children.

    22 Q. We're now talking about the second journey,

    23 the journey of March 1993, according to your

    24 statement. You stated that before you left, you

    25 received an authorisation from the HVO.



  46. 1 MR. TERRIER: I'll ask the usher to hand in

    2 to the witness Exhibit D28/3.

    3 Q. Witness, on the top end of this document you

    4 see the permit issued by the HVO, upon your request,

    5 for a journey between the 22nd of March, 1993 and the

    6 11th of April, 1993.

    7 A. I didn't understand you. Permit? Permit? I

    8 didn't understand this.

    9 Q. I'm going to repeat my question,

    10 Mr. Vidovic. You applied for a travel permit from the

    11 HVO for a period from the 22nd of March, 1993 until the

    12 11th of April, 1993; is that so?

    13 A. Exactly.

    14 Q. The two dates are written into the document

    15 signed by Marijan Skopljak, and this was on the basis

    16 of your indications, wasn't it?

    17 A. I came to the municipality, and I asked for a

    18 permit to be given to me, and they gave me this. Yes.

    19 I submitted a request, yes.

    20 Q. I understood that you applied for it, but my

    21 question is more specific. It relates to the dates in

    22 the document, because the trip is supposed to start on

    23 the 22nd of March, 1993 and end on the 11th of April,

    24 1993. Are these the dates that are to be found in the

    25 document?



  47. 1 A. Yes, those are the dates. Yes. Yes,

    2 exactly.

    3 Q. These dates were written into the document

    4 after you had given some instructions or indications;

    5 is that so?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. You were, therefore, planning to leave on the

    8 22nd of March and to be returning on the 11th of April,

    9 1993?

    10 A. Yes. I was late. I arrived in Germany on

    11 the 1st of April, 1993, I arrived. That's why I stayed

    12 10 or 15 days. I couldn't go back otherwise, because I

    13 didn't have documents.

    14 Q. How did you travel? Which means of transport

    15 did you have?

    16 A. I travelled by bus. By bus. By bus.

    17 Q. Where did you cross the border between

    18 Bosnia-Herzegovina and Croatia?

    19 A. (No audible response)

    20 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, the interpreter

    21 didn't understand the answer.

    22 MR. TERRIER:

    23 Q. Can you please repeat your answer? Where

    24 exactly did you cross the border between Bosnia and

    25 Croatia?



  48. 1 A. Kamensko.

    2 Q. At the border did you show this document, the

    3 HVO document?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. But the authority you showed this document to

    6 didn't put any stamp on the paper?

    7 A. I have it. It's like a little card that

    8 shows that I crossed the border.

    9 Q. Is that the card, a copy of which is to be

    10 found in the same document? Is that the one?

    11 A. The same, but the little card shows the date

    12 when I crossed the border, I mean, the date.

    13 Q. But no stamp was put on the HVO permit,

    14 because my question was more specific than that, on the

    15 HVO document?

    16 MR. PAR: Objection, Your Honour. The

    17 Prosecutor is presenting incorrect data to the

    18 witness. He's saying, "So there is no stamp put by the

    19 authorities on this document," and I would like the

    20 question, therefore, to be reformulated because there

    21 is a stamp that was placed there by the authorities, so

    22 that it would be accurate, and we don't want the

    23 witness to be misled.

    24 MR. TERRIER: I, of course, didn't plan to

    25 mislead the witness as is stated quite explicitly and



  49. 1 quite clearly in the transcript. I referred my

    2 question to the HVO permit, to the document which is on

    3 the top of the page, but in another testimony a similar

    4 document was presented and introduced, and it had

    5 received the stamp at the crossing of the border. I

    6 was surprised that this document hadn't received such a

    7 stamp.

    8 This is only by way of explanation to

    9 Mr. Par. My question was a simple one --

    10 MR. PAR: I'm sorry. I'm sorry for

    11 interrupting. That is precisely my objection. There

    12 is a stamp here. The stamp is here where it says

    13 "Border crossing," and with your permission, I'm going

    14 to read what it says: "The Ministry of the Interior,

    15 Police, Split." It is here on the original, on the

    16 first page of this text. It was not translated, but

    17 it's an international text, so one can see that this is

    18 a border crossing.

    19 JUDGE CASSESE: -- the present. So we all

    20 have in mind the Exhibit D28/3.

    21 MR. TERRIER: Thank you for your explanation,

    22 Mr. Par. I thought these were the photocopies of two

    23 different documents. On the one hand there was the HVO

    24 permit, but in the lower half it was a border crossing

    25 card, and there, indeed, you can see a frame on the



  50. 1 photocopy. But as a matter of fact, this is a

    2 photocopy of one and the same document.

    3 MR. PAR: I'm sorry if there was a

    4 misunderstanding.

    5 MR. TERRIER: Thank you very much, Mr. Par.

    6 This is no longer a misunderstanding. I can move on

    7 forward to another question.

    8 Q. Mr. Vidovic, what were the conditions of your

    9 crossing the border to Germany on the 1st of April,

    10 1993, as you said earlier on?

    11 A. I crossed it illegally. I crossed the border

    12 without any documents, on this bus.

    13 Q. Could you be more specific? What was the

    14 means of transport you were using to cross the border?

    15 A. Bus, bus.

    16 Q. The bus was not checked, was it?

    17 A. No, only two drivers and myself.

    18 Q. So this bus with two drivers and yourself was

    19 not checked at all?

    20 A. It was checked, but I was sitting there with

    21 them, and they said, "We're going and you're coming

    22 with us," and that's how we crossed the border. This

    23 other driver was probably there at the checkpoint where

    24 they look at documents.

    25 Q. Yes, but the representatives of the German



  51. 1 policy who were at the border crossing, did they ask

    2 for your papers?

    3 A. (No audible response)

    4 Q. You did not come across any member of the

    5 German police?

    6 A. No.

    7 Q. Where exactly did you cross the border?

    8 A. Salzburg.

    9 Q. Are you sure that you mean Salzburg?

    10 A. Certain.

    11 MR. TERRIER: Mr. Usher, could you help me

    12 give him this third document, I think it's

    13 Exhibit D29/3.

    14 JUDGE CASSESE: In the meantime, can I ask a

    15 question, Mr. Terrier? I'd like to seek some

    16 clarification from Mr. Par. I too had the impression

    17 that this document, D28/3, on page 1, was made up of

    18 two different documents. It's not very clear, because

    19 on the one hand we have this permit dated the 16th of

    20 March, 1993, and on the other hand we have a document

    21 which is a document for entry into the Republic of

    22 Croatia, and there you have the date of the 22nd of

    23 March. So if I got it right, these are two different

    24 documents. You photocopied two different, isolated

    25 case on one in the same. Could we have the originals,



  52. 1 Mr. Par?

    2 MR. PAR: I shall obtain the original for the

    3 court, and I shall provide you with it. I haven't got

    4 a copy now.

    5 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Sorry,

    6 Mr. Terrier. Go ahead.

    7 MR. TERRIER:

    8 Q. Witness, would you agree with me if I said

    9 that this document which you have in front of you was

    10 issued to you so that you would have to leave Germany

    11 before the 6th of August, 1993?

    12 A. Well, I asked for it because I said that I

    13 lost my old passport, and they gave me this, this

    14 permit.

    15 Q. But, Mr. Vidovic, I mean, a permit for what?

    16 A. To get out of Germany. It's a document

    17 because I lost my passport. Then when I got this, I

    18 found my passport. So this is a document in order to

    19 leave Germany.

    20 Q. So you'd lost your passport, you applied for

    21 this document, and then you found your passport again?

    22 A. Yes. As my wife was packing the bags she

    23 misplaced it somewhere, but then I thought that we had

    24 lost the passport. That's why I asked for this. But

    25 then, after a while, we found the old passport.



  53. 1 Q. The German authorities, at least those that

    2 issued this document to you, did they ask you in which

    3 way you had entered the German territory?

    4 A. No.

    5 Q. Did the authorities under which authorisation

    6 or power you were staying in Germany until

    7 March 1993 -- so you'd been staying there for about

    8 five months.

    9 Would you agree with me if I said that this

    10 is a type of document which is issued to aliens or

    11 foreigners which are illegally in the territory of a

    12 State, requiring such individuals to leave territory at

    13 the earliest convenience because they're not entitled,

    14 they're not authorised to sojourn in that territory?

    15 A. I agree about the State, but then I couldn't

    16 enter Slovenia with this document. I found out from my

    17 brother. He said, "You can get out of Germany, but you

    18 can't get into Slovenia without a passport." The old

    19 Umag passport was no longer valid.

    20 Q. I'm going to ask the question again. There

    21 must be some misunderstanding. I'm going to put it

    22 differently to you.

    23 Were you checked by the German police in July

    24 1993?

    25 A. No.



  54. 1 Q. Who did you turn to to obtain such a

    2 document?

    3 A. Police.

    4 Q. But very explicitly, it obliges you to leave

    5 Germany prior to the 6th August, 1993. Did you do so?

    6 A. No.

    7 Q. Why did you apply for this document then?

    8 A. In order to get out and to get a passport in

    9 Croatia, because as a tourist over there I couldn't get

    10 a passport in Germany. So then I asked to go to my

    11 brother's to get a document made.

    12 Q. Is that what you did?

    13 A. No.

    14 Q. Why didn't you do so?

    15 A. Because my brother said, "You can't get into

    16 Slovenia. You can't cross the border with this piece

    17 of paper."

    18 Q. Mr. Vidovic, please refer back to

    19 Exhibit D29/3. Page 2. Page 2, on the right-hand page

    20 of your passport, a stamp can be seen which was affixed

    21 by the authorities or some authority of the German

    22 Republic. Could you tell us when that stamp was put in

    23 your passport and why it was affixed to your passport?

    24 A. I don't understand. Which one?

    25 Q. What don't you understand? Don't you



  55. 1 understand the question, or the stamp?

    2 A. Which stamp?

    3 Q. The stamp that is on the right-hand page of

    4 your passport, and it is the second from the top.

    5 Can't you see a stamp saying "Bundesrepublik,

    6 Deutschland"?

    7 A. Yes. Yes, I can see it.

    8 Q. My question was --

    9 A. That is for Zurich, that I was taken back

    10 from this border crossing.

    11 Q. Mr. Vidovic, but as far as I know, Zurich is

    12 not in Germany.

    13 JUDGE CASSESE: He means "zuruck", meaning

    14 "return." You can see the other stamp. "Zuruck" means

    15 chased out of the country.

    16 A. You can't cross the border. You can't go

    17 back to Germany.

    18 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, my question was

    19 actually on the other stamp. I'm going to try my luck

    20 again.

    21 Q. Mr. Vidovic, on that page, there is indeed a

    22 stamp where you have the word Zuruckgewissen on it.

    23 But above that there is another stamp where you have

    24 "Bundesrepublik Deutschland." Can you see that one?

    25 A. I don't know. I don't know this. I can see



  56. 1 it, though.

    2 Q. Still, this stamp is to be found in your

    3 passport.

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. However, you're not in a position to say when

    6 and why it was put there?

    7 A. I can't remember.

    8 Q. Fine.

    9 MR. PAR: Your Honour?

    10 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, Mr. Par?

    11 MR. PAR: With your permission, I would like

    12 to explain. When entry into the country is forbidden,

    13 then this stamp is put into the passport,

    14 Zuruckgewiessen and then this other stamp is affixed

    15 that is crossed out. So on the same occasion, I know

    16 that this is so, both of these stamps are affixed

    17 there, but the one that says "Bundesrepublik" is

    18 crossed out because the person did not enter the

    19 country. That I know personally. I know that it is

    20 so.

    21 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Par, could we have the

    22 original passport because the witness told us that he

    23 had that passport at the hotel. Could we have it

    24 tomorrow morning? I'm sure that it is possible to see

    25 the date in the passport, which is not to be deciphered



  57. 1 here, because the photocopy is pretty poor. So,

    2 Mr. Par, can we have it by tomorrow morning?

    3 MR. PAR: By tomorrow morning I'll bring the

    4 original documents. So today we are not going to

    5 tender it into evidence until we have brought all of it

    6 in -- if the witness says that he does have it with

    7 him. So I'm going to inform you in the morning.

    8 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, he said already that he

    9 had the passport at the hotel.

    10 Yes, carry on, Mr. Terrier.

    11 MR. TERRIER: Another couple of questions and

    12 I will finish.

    13 Q. We're still talking about the same passport,

    14 the same page. There are two stamps we can see. A

    15 little bit to the left, one is December '92, and the

    16 other one is January '93. Could you tell us something

    17 about these stamps? What do they mean?

    18 A. '92, it was a visa allowing me to enter

    19 Germany, and it was issued for three months.

    20 Q. Mr. Vidovic, I don't think that is correct.

    21 I think the stamp which we have on the right-hand-side

    22 page of your passport, at the top of the page, you have

    23 a stamp. What does this stamp mean?

    24 No, this one, up here. The date, 10th of

    25 December, '92.



  58. 1 A. That was when I went to Germany in December

    2 for Christmas. I went to visit my wife and my

    3 children.

    4 Q. Mr. Vidovic, I am rather confused, because we

    5 do not see here the date of your entry to Germany, but

    6 you now say you went for Christmas to Germany. Haven't

    7 you made any other trips? To Croatia, for instance?

    8 A. Yes, I did go to Croatia, and I also went to

    9 Germany. I did. I travelled.

    10 Q. Well, you travelled, that is why this stamp

    11 was put on your passport. So this was not a trip to

    12 Germany, it was a trip to Croatia; isn't that so? So

    13 according to your passport, you went to Croatia?

    14 A. No, I went to Germany. Yes.

    15 Q. So in December '92, you went to Germany?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. Returning in January '93?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. How many trips to Germany altogether?

    20 A. Altogether, I went three or four times.

    21 Q. So, say, four times, according to your

    22 statement?

    23 A. Well, it could be.

    24 Q. Mr. Vidovic, two or three questions more.

    25 First, according to these stamps that you've talked



  59. 1 about, it does not seem that this stamp was placed by a

    2 German authority, but rather by a Croatian authority.

    3 Or am I wrong?

    4 A. Well, I don't know either. I'm not sure

    5 either. They look at the passport. Whether they stamp

    6 it or not, I don't know.

    7 Q. But in the document that you've showed us,

    8 there is absolutely no mention relative to the trip to

    9 Germany in March 1992. The only document, as we see,

    10 the photocopy, this is the crossing from Bosnia to

    11 Croatia in March '93, but we have nothing regarding

    12 Germany. Did you go there?

    13 A. I went to Croatia.

    14 Q. The only German document that we have is this

    15 one, D29/3, that on the 22nd of July, '93, you are

    16 requested to leave Germany prior to 6 August because

    17 you are in Germany illegally. Or am I wrong?

    18 A. You're not right. I applied for the papers

    19 so as to leave Germany. That is the document. But not

    20 to enter another state with that document. I asked her

    21 for a paper to get out, but I could not enter Slovenia

    22 with this document.

    23 MR. TERRIER: Your Honours, I have no more

    24 questions.

    25 JUDGE CASSESE: You said D29/3. Is it this



  60. 1 document that you just quoted here?

    2 MR. TERRIER: No, it is D30/3. Yes, excuse

    3 me, Your Honour, but --

    4 JUDGE CASSESE: There is no point in

    5 discussing the debate, except we see that this is an

    6 expulsion order issued by Germany, and according to

    7 paragraph 42, paragraph 1 of the German law on aliens,

    8 and that is that particular document, yes, that we are

    9 talking about.

    10 Counsel Radovic?

    11 MR. RADOVIC: Thank you, Mr. President. I

    12 would like D29/3 -- that is, a photocopy of his former

    13 Yugoslav -- be shown to the witness once again,

    14 please.

    15 Re-examined by Mr. Radovic:

    16 Q. Now, will you please take this photocopy and

    17 leaf through it, go through it from the first to the

    18 last page. Tell me how many pages this photocopy has.

    19 A. Two.

    20 Q. Will you please count them? Count them. How

    21 many?

    22 A. Two.

    23 Q. What is on the first page?

    24 A. On the first page, the first and last name.

    25 Q. I'm referring to the page with your



  61. 1 photograph. The catalogue is very short. And what

    2 about the second page?

    3 A. The second page is the border crossings.

    4 Q. Tell us, these photocopies which are attached

    5 as evidence to the Court record, are these the

    6 photocopies of your passport in its entirety, in toto?

    7 That is, was your passport photocopied in toto, in

    8 whole, or -- does your passport have more than two

    9 pages?

    10 A. I don't remember. I don't know.

    11 Q. You don't know how many pages there were in

    12 your passport?

    13 A. I don't.

    14 Q. But does it have more than two pages?

    15 A. Yeah, sure it does.

    16 Q. So is this a photocopy of your whole

    17 passport, or a largish part of the passport was not

    18 photocopied?

    19 A. There is a part which wasn't.

    20 Q. So in practical terms, these are fragments of

    21 your passport?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. When you went to Germany for the first time,

    24 did you need a visa then?

    25 A. No.



  62. 1 Q. And when was it for the first time?

    2 A. '89, '90. '90, in fact.

    3 Q. At that time, between the former Yugoslavia

    4 and Germany visas were abolished, tourist visas. What

    5 I should like to know is, in 1992, when was it that you

    6 went to Germany first, for the first time?

    7 A. In 1992?

    8 Q. Yes, when your family was in Germany already.

    9 A. In September.

    10 Q. So in September 1992, when you went to

    11 Germany, did you need a visa then?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. Tell me, even if in all the republics of the

    14 former Yugoslavia there was one and the same passport,

    15 could one see from the passport which republic a person

    16 came from?

    17 A. Visa? No. Where the passport was issued.

    18 Q. Next to the passport number, were there

    19 letters "BH"?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. What do these letters BH mean?

    22 A. Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    23 Q. Do you know what was the initial letter in

    24 the passport from the former Socialist Republic of

    25 Croatia?



  63. 1 A. I do.

    2 Q. Didn't you know that there was only the

    3 letter "H"?

    4 A. Now I know it.

    5 Q. You said when you went to Germany for the

    6 first time, in 1992, that you were issued a German visa

    7 in Salzburg. Did I understand you well?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. Could you then please describe this visa to

    10 us. Was it in the form of a stamp in your passport, or

    11 was it a kind of a card affixed to the passport like

    12 the Dutch visa now issued?

    13 A. No, it was a stamp in the passport.

    14 Q. So it was only a stamp in the passport?

    15 A. A stamp.

    16 Q. And then it says from which date to what date

    17 that you could spend in the territory of the Federal

    18 Republic of Germany?

    19 A. Yes, three months.

    20 Q. So as of September 1992 onwards, you needed a

    21 visa every time; did I understand you correctly?

    22 A. After these three months expired -- no, you

    23 mean within those three months you did not, but after

    24 these three months, then I needed a visa.

    25 Q. And when did you need a visa again?



  64. 1 A. I needed it on the 22nd March, 1993.

    2 Q. The last time you went there?

    3 A. The last time.

    4 Q. You said that you had your passport at the

    5 hotel. We call it "putovnica" now. We used to call it

    6 "passport" then. Do you still have your former

    7 Yugoslav passport with you, or do you have your

    8 Croatian passport?

    9 A. I have a former Yugoslav passport.

    10 Q. You have the former Yugoslav passport? You

    11 brought it along?

    12 A. I did.

    13 Q. Are you sure that in that former Yugoslav

    14 passport there was the stamp which indicated the permit

    15 to enter Germany? Do you have an explanation, then,

    16 how is it possible that this document which was shown

    17 you by the Prosecution lacks this document? Is it

    18 because the whole passport was not photocopied?

    19 A. Yes, you have the photocopy here.

    20 Q. True, but this photocopy does not have it?

    21 A. But it's in here.

    22 Q. What is? The visa?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. Will you please show us in the Croatian text

    25 where that visa is supposed to be?



  65. 1 A. Here (indicating).

    2 Q. That is not the visa. There is a square

    3 stamp --

    4 A. I think it is.

    5 Q. Right, but will you please bring the original

    6 of the passport tomorrow, so that we can see the rest

    7 of your passport which was not photocopied?

    8 A. All right.

    9 Q. If you do not feel like coming here, you can

    10 send it either through us or through colleague Par, you

    11 can send your passport so we can see the original.

    12 A. Yes, all right.

    13 Q. I see that my learned friend was surprised

    14 that you crossed from Austria into Germany on a bus

    15 without a passport and that nobody asked you about a

    16 passport.

    17 A. Nobody asked anything. We crossed the

    18 border.

    19 Q. Tell us, what were the plates that the bus

    20 had?

    21 A. I don't know. I don't remember. I never

    22 paid attention.

    23 Q. And those men, the driver and the co-driver,

    24 what language did you speak?

    25 A. Well, mostly Slovenian. They came from



  66. 1 Slovenia.

    2 Q. So could we conclude that it was a Slovenian

    3 bus, then?

    4 A. Well, probably it was. I paid no attention.

    5 Q. Do you distinguish between Slovenian and

    6 Croatian languages?

    7 A. I do, some. They did say they were from

    8 Slovenia, they did travel, they worked here.

    9 Q. What I'm asking you is whether you can

    10 distinguish between Slovenian and Croatian languages.

    11 A. Yes, I do, but poorly.

    12 Q. Yes, I understand that you do not understand

    13 Slovenian well, but are you speaking Croatian or

    14 Slovenian?

    15 A. Croatian.

    16 Q. And would you notice a difference if I now

    17 spoke Slovenian?

    18 A. I wouldn't.

    19 Q. You wouldn't?

    20 MR. RADOVIC: Thank you. I have no more

    21 questions.

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Par?

    23 MR. PAR: Thank you, Your Honours.

    24 Cross-examined by Mr. Par:

    25 Q. Mirko, you had the original of this passport,



  67. 1 the photocopy of which we showed today. Do you also

    2 have the originals of other documents that we showed

    3 here photocopied today? I'm referring to the permit

    4 and the paper from Frankfurt. Do you have them in the

    5 hotel?

    6 A. Yes, I do.

    7 Q. You have both photocopies and the originals

    8 of both documents?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. Tell us, please, this permit, what it says

    11 here, this is the border pass and the stamp that we

    12 talked about. Is it one document, or are these two

    13 documents?

    14 A. These are two documents. They're both here.

    15 Q. The one below?

    16 A. This card, if that is what you mean, it is

    17 this.

    18 MR. PAR: Will you please put it on the ELMO

    19 so that we can see it? And I do apologise, then. I do

    20 apologise to my learned friend and to Your Honours. I

    21 thought this was the stamp that you sealed the permit

    22 with, but the witness says that this is the card for

    23 the border crossing. Can we see it on the ELMO,

    24 please, the card.

    25 You have also the original of this permit,



  68. 1 and you have the passport and this paper from the city

    2 of Frankfurt, and we promise to bring these documents

    3 tomorrow. Since I cut into my learned friend's

    4 examination because I thought that it was one and the

    5 same document, that now he has no right to

    6 cross-examine, if I may, I will ask now the question

    7 which I believe my learned friend had in mind at the

    8 time when I thought it was one and the same document.

    9 Q. So when you reached the border crossing with

    10 this pass, did the border authorities stamp that

    11 permit, or did they not?

    12 A. No.

    13 Q. When did they give you this pass, this one,

    14 that you just showed us?

    15 A. When I was crossing the border from Bosnia to

    16 Croatia.

    17 Q. On the Croatian side they gave you this?

    18 A. They gave me this on the Croatian side.

    19 MR. PAR: I have no more questions, and

    20 tomorrow I shall present to the court the originals of

    21 the documents that the witness says he has with him,

    22 and tomorrow I shall tender it for itemisation.

    23 I have only one correction in the transcript,

    24 if I may. That is on page 111, twelfth line of the

    25 transcript, there was a mistake when the question was



  69. 1 interpreted. My question to the witness, I asked him

    2 if he was in Germany from the 1st of April, 1993 until

    3 June '95, and the transcript says the 21st of April

    4 rather than the 1st of April. This is important,

    5 because we are seeking to prove that the witness was

    6 not in Ahmici on the 21st of April.

    7 Thank you very much, Your Honours. I have

    8 nothing else.

    9 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Yes, I have one

    10 question for the witness. Mr. Vidovic, are you a

    11 relative of Miro Vidovic in Pirici?

    12 A. No, no, we are not related, not even

    13 distantly. There are several Mires. Don't know which

    14 one you're referring to.

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: I was referring to the one

    16 who died on the 18th of September, '93 in Pirici,

    17 according to the document Prosecution Exhibit 337.

    18 A. We are not related, no.

    19 JUDGE CASSESE: Were there, either in Pirici,

    20 Santici, or Ahmici, other persons called Mirko Vidovic,

    21 having your name?

    22 A. Yes. Yes, there is.

    23 Q. Another person called Mirko Vidovic, who has

    24 your name?

    25 A. Yes, there is two or three more.



  70. 1 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Thank you. You

    2 may now be released.

    3 (Trial Chamber deliberates)

    4 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Vidovic, we can't release

    5 you now because tomorrow you have to come back with

    6 your passport and the other documents, the original of

    7 the other documents which have been produced today by

    8 Defence Counsel Par. So you may now leave the

    9 courtroom, but please don't leave The Hague because, as

    10 I say, we may need you again.

    11 Thank you. We may move on to our next

    12 witness. In future, I think it would be appropriate

    13 for Defence counsel to always produce the original of

    14 any document they intend to put in in evidence.

    15 Yes. Let us now take a break, a 30-minute

    16 break.

    17 (The witness withdrew)

    18 --- Recess taken at 3.55 p.m.

    19 --- On resuming at 4.23 p.m.

    20 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Grabovac, I presume.

    21 Good afternoon, Mr. Grabovac. Could you please stand

    22 and make the solemn declaration?

    23 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

    24 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

    25 truth.



  71. 1 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may sit

    2 down.

    3 Counsel Slokovic-Glumac.

    4 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Thank you,

    5 Mr. President.

    6 WITNESS: IVAN GRABOVAC

    7 Examined by Ms. Slokovic-Glumac:

    8 Q. Mr. Grabovac, would you introduce yourself to

    9 the court?

    10 A. I'm Ivan Grabovac, born in Krcevine, Vitez.

    11 Q. Could you please tell us what year you were

    12 born in?

    13 A. I was born on the 15th of November, 1947.

    14 Q. And where do you reside?

    15 A. I reside in Krcevine, Vitez.

    16 Q. Could you please tell the court where you

    17 were employed in 1992?

    18 A. In 1992, I was employed in the Grill

    19 Restaurant that was owned by Ivica Kupreskic, and I had

    20 actually sublet it from him.

    21 Q. When did you sublet this grill?

    22 A. On the 30th of March, 1992.

    23 Q. And what was this grill? Was it a restaurant

    24 or what?

    25 A. It was a restaurant of sorts. It offered



  72. 1 grilled meat and a few things a la carte.

    2 Q. And where was this restaurant?

    3 A. This restaurant is in the centre of town, in

    4 the street of Kresimira Petra.

    5 Q. Tell us, why did Mr. Ivica Kupreskic sublet

    6 this restaurant to you?

    7 A. Because Ivica Kupreskic was supposed to go to

    8 Germany. I stayed on to work at The Grill as the owner

    9 of that shop.

    10 Q. That is to say, not as the owner but as a

    11 person who was subletting; is that right?

    12 A. Yes, that's right.

    13 Q. How long did you work there as the leasee of

    14 this restaurant?

    15 A. I worked there until the 15th of April,

    16 1993.

    17 Q. Do you know why or, rather, whether Sutra,

    18 the company Sutra, had some shops of its own?

    19 A. Yes. It had a retail and a wholesale.

    20 Q. Who was the owner of the Sutra company?

    21 A. Ivica Kupreskic.

    22 Q. Where was the wholesale department of this

    23 enterprise and where was the retail store?

    24 A. The retail store was in town, in the building

    25 called Vucjak, and wholesale was in the village of



  73. 1 Pirici.

    2 Q. What was the assortment of goods that this

    3 shop had? Was it food? Was it consumer goods?

    4 A. It offered mixed goods. There were food

    5 products there and, also, there were textiles.

    6 Q. Who worked in this retail store in the

    7 building in Vucjak in Vitez?

    8 A. Dragica Grabovac did.

    9 Q. Is Dragica Grabovac related to you?

    10 A. Yes, she's my sister.

    11 Q. Until when did she work at that store?

    12 A. She worked there until the 6th of April,

    13 1993.

    14 Q. Did she work there as a saleslady?

    15 A. Yes, she worked as a salesperson, and she was

    16 in charge from a material and moral point of view.

    17 Q. Why did she stop working there, in April

    18 1993, in that shop?

    19 A. There were family problems.

    20 Q. What kind of problems?

    21 A. Her oldest son's health, and then she had to

    22 leave the shop so that she could take care of her

    23 oldest son.

    24 Q. Who came to replace her then at this shop in

    25 Vitez?



  74. 1 A. Mirjan Kupreskic did.

    2 Q. Where did Mirjan Kupreskic work until then;

    3 do you know?

    4 A. He worked at the wholesale in Pirici.

    5 Q. That is to say, in the same company but at a

    6 different place?

    7 A. Yes, at a different place.

    8 Q. The Grill Restaurant that you had sublet, did

    9 you get your supplies for it from this shop of Ivica

    10 Kupreskic in Vitez?

    11 A. I got supplies for that restaurant from the

    12 retail store of Sutra, all the products that were there

    13 in that shop. If there were some products that could

    14 not be obtained there, then I would purchase them

    15 elsewhere.

    16 Q. So did you come to this shop in Vitez every

    17 day?

    18 A. No, not every day, only when necessary.

    19 Q. How often was that? How often per week, for

    20 example?

    21 A. Well, sometimes I'd come three days in a row,

    22 and sometimes I would the not come for an entire day

    23 and then I'd come on the next day.

    24 Q. Before the second conflict or, rather, before

    25 the war broke out in the Lasva River Valley, during



  75. 1 that week, did you see Mirjan Kupreskic in that shop?

    2 Did you see him working there in the shop?

    3 A. Yes, I did, every day, because in the morning

    4 we would have coffee together.

    5 Q. On the 15th of April, 1993, do you remember

    6 whether you were in the shop of Ivica Kupreskic?

    7 A. Yes. I went to buy some goods. I went to

    8 get some Tuborg beer that you couldn't get in other

    9 stores, and I got all that they had left but not very

    10 much of it because there wasn't enough, not even at

    11 Mirjan's.

    12 Q. You saw Mirjan working there, right, on that

    13 day?

    14 A. Yes, I did see Mirjan working there on that

    15 day, there at the shop.

    16 Q. What did you do then? Did you leave

    17 immediately or did you stay at the shop?

    18 A. On that day I came to the shop. I got the

    19 Tuborg beer. I put it into my own car. In the

    20 meantime, Krgovic Batric came and Mujcibabac Gavro

    21 too. I treated the two of them to a drink, while

    22 Mirjan Kupreskic asked me to go to the staircase by the

    23 office, because he didn't want his customers to see us

    24 drinking beer. I treated Krgovic Batric and Mujcibabic

    25 Gavro Mujcibabic, and we talked, just plain, everyday



  76. 1 talk.

    2 Q. So where did you actually take a seat, was it

    3 in the warehouse or the storage area?

    4 A. Well, yes, it was some kind of a storage area

    5 of that shop but not in the proper sense of the word,

    6 because people would pass there on their way to the

    7 office as well.

    8 Q. Did anybody else come in after that?

    9 A. Veljko Cato came. He had finished his work,

    10 and he also offered us a drink or, rather, Tuborg beer

    11 that we were having that day. We talked there until

    12 about 4.00 p.m. Just before 4.00 p.m. we parted.

    13 Q. And these two men who came at the beginning,

    14 this Krgovic Batric and Mujcibabic Gavro, are they your

    15 friends?

    16 A. They are pensioners. At that time, I was

    17 better off than pensioners. I wanted to treat them to

    18 a drink.

    19 Q. And what did you do?

    20 A. Well, we also had some meze. That's what you

    21 call these canapés with the drink.

    22 Q. You had a drink, didn't you? That's what you

    23 said?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. And why didn't Mirjan want to have people



  77. 1 seen drinking at the shop?

    2 A. Well, it's not right. It's not proper for

    3 customers who were coming in to shop to see us drinking

    4 beer. Children come there, women, and it's not proper

    5 for them to see us drinking.

    6 Q. After that, what did you talk about as you

    7 were socialising there?

    8 A. On that day, we talked about inflation the

    9 most, and Veljko Cato and I talked about this, saying

    10 that we could not keep up with inflation. Our prices

    11 could not keep up with inflation. We joked a bit, and

    12 we chatted, and this was everyday talk and the kind of

    13 jokes we always exchanged.

    14 Q. Did you talk about the abduction of Zivko

    15 Totic and the murder of his escorts and this political

    16 situation that was rather tense at the time?

    17 A. Not on that day, because we did not have a

    18 radio because we were sitting in front of the office,

    19 and we didn't know anything, not until I came home in

    20 the evening.

    21 Q. All right. When did you get home?

    22 A. Well, I came sometime between 5.00 and 6.00

    23 p.m.

    24 Q. Who came to see you that evening? Who came

    25 to see you at your home -- that is to say, to your



  78. 1 mother's house?

    2 A. My sister, Ankica Grabovac came, and her

    3 husband, Ivica Kupreskic.

    4 Q. Ankica Grabovac is actually Ankica Kupreskic;

    5 is that correct?

    6 A. Yes, Ankica Kupreskic.

    7 Q. She's your sister; right?

    8 A. Yes, that's right.

    9 Q. Where did you see her?

    10 A. In the family house of my mother's and my

    11 sister-in-law -- or that is to say, my late brother's

    12 house.

    13 Q. Where is this?

    14 A. This is in Krcevine, number 90, Vitez.

    15 Q. She came to see her mother and to see her

    16 brothers; is that right?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. Where was Ankica Kupreskic before that?

    19 A. Ankica Kupreskic was in Germany for about a

    20 year and 15 days or so.

    21 Q. At what time did Ankica Kupreskic and her

    22 husband, Ivica, come in?

    23 A. They came approximately around 7.00 p.m., ten

    24 past seven, quarter past seven; around 7.00 p.m.

    25 Q. How long did they stay?



  79. 1 A. They stayed, I believe, about 30 minutes,

    2 until 7.30 or 7.40.

    3 Q. Well, all right. All of this is approximate,

    4 isn't it?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. Did Ankica Kupreskic see all of her brothers?

    7 A. No. She saw me, Ivan, she saw Anto. Karlo,

    8 on that day, after work, he stayed in the cafe of Osman

    9 in Mahala in Vitez.

    10 Q. That was a Muslim cafe, wasn't it?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. In the Muslim part of Vitez; is that right?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. Karlo Grabovac was a member of the HVO?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. That evening he was not at home, but he was

    17 in a Muslim cafe; is that right?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. On that evening did you receive any

    20 information that on the next day there would be a

    21 conflict between the Muslims and the Croats in the area

    22 of Vitez?

    23 A. No, because if my brother came after the

    24 curfew, I did not know of any stories about a

    25 conflict.



  80. 1 Q. Had he known about this, had he had any

    2 information about a conflict, would he have informed

    3 you?

    4 A. Most probably he would have, but I cannot

    5 present his opinions now. I can't see this clearly in

    6 my head.

    7 Q. All right. I'm going to ask you this at the

    8 end. So you have no information about the coming

    9 conflict; is that right?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. What happened in the morning in Krcevine?

    12 A. That night for me was like all the other

    13 nights before that. I watched television, and after

    14 some time I went to bed, and then in the morning we

    15 just heard shooting and shelling. That could have been

    16 around 5.30.

    17 Q. Just a minute, please. I don't think that

    18 the translation is right. Did you hear shooting, or

    19 shelling?

    20 A. I only heard shelling.

    21 Q. Where were the shells falling?

    22 A. Partly they were falling on Vitez and partly

    23 on my village, called Krcevine.

    24 Q. On which part of the village did these shells

    25 fall?



  81. 1 A. The northern part and the central part of

    2 Krcevine.

    3 Q. Who lived in this central part of Krcevine?

    4 A. Croats.

    5 Q. How long did the shelling go on?

    6 A. The shelling went on for about half an hour,

    7 and then there would be a lull, and then again. That's

    8 the way it went that day.

    9 Q. Was there an army in the village?

    10 A. At that moment there was not an army in the

    11 village. At our own initiative, we couldn't go through

    12 a wall. What is impossible is impossible. We gathered

    13 at around 5.00, and we gathered in the western part of

    14 the village, and we discussed all the troubles that had

    15 befallen us.

    16 Q. At what time did you gather together the

    17 people from the village?

    18 A. Around 15.00 hours.

    19 Q. All right. Was there any shooting that day

    20 in the village? I mean, was there any small-arms fire?

    21 A. No. No. Only shelling.

    22 Q. All right. Could you tell us how many Croats

    23 there were in that village?

    24 A. According to the last census, of 1990, there

    25 were exactly 539 Croats.



  82. 1 Q. How many rifles did you have in the village

    2 subsequently, when you met and then counted the rifles?

    3 A. Around 15.00 that day, on the 16th, we met

    4 around 15.00 in the western part of the village, and we

    5 had 28 rifles. Of them, three were hunting rifles.

    6 Q. When did the fighting break out, or rather

    7 when did the conflict with Muslims in Krcevine begin?

    8 When was that?

    9 A. That day we were already deployed along the

    10 boundaries of the village. We did not know anything.

    11 There was no shooting for another day or two.

    12 Q. You mean it began sometime on Sunday?

    13 A. Yes, a little bit on Sunday.

    14 Q. When were you mobilised, in fact?

    15 A. I was mobilised to the boundaries of the

    16 village on the 17th of April, '93 -- or rather on the

    17 18th of April '93. It was a Saturday -- no, it was

    18 Sunday.

    19 Q. When all was said and done, did you spend

    20 that war in the trenches?

    21 A. No. On Sunday, I finished at the boundaries

    22 of the village, and they moved to my personal car to

    23 transport wounded or dead. And that indeed happened.

    24 Q. Yes, but after that?

    25 A. I did it until the 27th of July, '93. When



  83. 1 we ran out of fuel, I was ordered back to the front

    2 line in my village, called Krcevine, from which I never

    3 went away until the cease-fire was signed.

    4 Q. After the cease-fire was signed, where did

    5 you work? Did you stay with the HVO, or did you go

    6 into private business?

    7 A. As soon as we were allowed to turn in our

    8 weapons, I was among the first, and then Ivica

    9 Kupreskic took me on as a worker in his retail outlet

    10 to work as a salesman. I began to work in the

    11 beginning of May. It could have been the 3rd or the

    12 4th of May when I was hired to work for Ivica

    13 Kupreskic.

    14 Q. So it was a job that was Ivica Kupreskic's

    15 before the war, in the same shop?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. At the same place?

    18 A. At the same place.

    19 Q. Did Mirjan Kupreskic work at the time

    20 anywhere?

    21 A. At that time, Mirjan Kupreskic was already

    22 working at the wholesale store in Pirici. They opened

    23 their second store, wholesale store, at Vucjak, and

    24 Mirjan worked there as a wholesale dealer.

    25 Q. So when you came on the 4th of May, '94, and



  84. 1 began to work at that retail outlet, you found Mirjan

    2 Kupreskic, who was already working as a dealer, as a

    3 wholesale dealer, for the same company? Is that

    4 correct?

    5 A. No. I took over the retail business from

    6 Mirjan, and Ivica opened that wholesale unit that

    7 Mirjan would then man.

    8 Q. So you succeeded him there?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. So on the 4th of May, he was already

    11 working. The important thing is that he began working

    12 before you; is that so?

    13 A. Yes, it is.

    14 Q. Did Mirjan Kupreskic work now for this

    15 wholesale unit in '94, '95, '96?

    16 A. He worked -- yes, for the wholesale unit

    17 in '94, '95, and '96.

    18 Q. You met him there, didn't you?

    19 A. I stayed there such a short time, because I

    20 wanted to go back to my enterprise to work as a waiter,

    21 because I could also rent a facility, some premises,

    22 from my company, and I thought it would be easier to

    23 take some premises from the company than to look for

    24 one as a third person. Thus I went to Ivica Kupreskic,

    25 to his restaurant company, Kruscica, in Vitez.



  85. 1 Q. Did you happen to see Ivica Kupreskic in

    2 uniform before the war?

    3 A. No, no, I did not.

    4 Q. After the cease-fire was signed in April '94,

    5 did you ever see him wearing a uniform?

    6 A. No. Who wore that uniform during the war,

    7 that is, those who had it, they could not wait but get

    8 rid of it.

    9 Q. All right. Thank you. Will you tell me just

    10 one more thing: Those people who were in the store --

    11 I'm talking about the 4th of May, '94 -- Krgovic

    12 Batric, Mujcibabic Gavro and Veljko Cato, do you know

    13 what their ethnicity is?

    14 A. Mujcibabic Gavro and Veljko Cato are

    15 Orthodox; that is, Serbs. Krgovic Batric is a

    16 Montenegrin. I could not really tell you what his

    17 ethnic origin is.

    18 Q. Montenegrin?

    19 A. Montenegrin.

    20 Q. Right. Thank you very much.

    21 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Thank you, Your

    22 Honours. I have no more questions.

    23 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    24 Counsel Pavkovic, any cross-examination for

    25 any Defence counsel?



  86. 1 MR. PAVKOVIC: Your Honours, other counsel

    2 for Defence have no intention -- are not planning to

    3 examine this witness.

    4 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Blaxill?

    5 MR. BLAXILL: Thank you, Your Honours,

    6 Mr. President.

    7 Cross-examined by Mr. Blaxill:

    8 Q. Mr. Grabovac, as a result of your testimony

    9 here today, I would like to ask you just a few

    10 questions arising from that. My name is Michael

    11 Blaxill, and I am one of the Prosecution attorneys

    12 assigned to this case.

    13 Sir, you said that on the 15th of April,

    14 1993, you were having a beer at the store where Mirjan

    15 Kupreskic worked, and you used the expression that you

    16 parted at about 4.00.

    17 Does that mean that you personally left the

    18 shop at 4.00, about 4.00?

    19 A. That day I left the store around 16.00,

    20 perhaps a little before that.

    21 Q. When you left the shop, where was Mr. Mirjan

    22 Kupreskic?

    23 A. Mirjan Kupreskic stayed behind in the store,

    24 in Ivica Kupreskic's shop, because the working hours

    25 were until 17.00, until 5.00 p.m.



  87. 1 Q. Did you see Mr. Mirjan Kupreskic at all again

    2 on the 15th of April, 1993?

    3 A. No. After 16.00, I did not see Mirjan

    4 Kupreskic.

    5 Q. Did you see Mr. Mirjan Kupreskic at all

    6 during the subsequent days, the 16th, the 17th, or the

    7 18th of April?

    8 A. I saw Mirjan afterwards, whether it was

    9 seven, eight, or maybe ten days later. I came to the

    10 Grill Restaurant to throw away the meat which was in

    11 the refrigerator because all these items were

    12 perishable, and I took some beer home. That day I saw

    13 Mirjan Kupreskic in the town, only I cannot say which

    14 date it was.

    15 Q. Thank you very much, sir. When you left on

    16 the 15th of April you left the shop, did you, in fact,

    17 go back to your Grill Restaurant at all, or did you go

    18 straight to your relatives' home?

    19 A. No. I went to the Grill Restaurant, unloaded

    20 the beer, took it into the restaurant, and I was there

    21 for an hour, an hour and a half. Then I went directly

    22 home.

    23 Q. At what time, sir, do you recall arriving

    24 back home, if you do, indeed, recall?

    25 A. I got home sometime before 6.00.



  88. 1 Q. I believe you said that you received a visit

    2 from your sister and her husband, Mr. Ivica Kupreskic,

    3 somewhere around 7.00 that evening; is that right, sir?

    4 A. No, they did not come to visit me. They came

    5 to see my mother at my late brother's, and I went over

    6 to their house to celebrate, to welcome my

    7 brother-in-law and my sister.

    8 Q. Thank you. Then you went to bed quite

    9 normally that night and slept through until about half

    10 past five the following morning. That would be

    11 correct, sir, yes?

    12 A. It is, except that I did not go to bed

    13 directly, because I usually stay up and watch TV and as

    14 there were all sorts of news, I wanted to hear them

    15 all, and that is what I did on that evening.

    16 Q. Then you've told us, sir, that you woke then

    17 in the morning and that the sounds that woke you were

    18 those of the sound of shelling, heavy gunfire; is that

    19 right?

    20 A. Yes, it is, because at that hour my body is

    21 already used to it. I sleep until about 7.00, but that

    22 morning the shelling woke me up around 5.30.

    23 Q. Did you go out of your house at that point or

    24 shortly after, or did you remain indoors because of the

    25 shelling that was going on?



  89. 1 A. As soon as I heard the shelling, I dressed up

    2 and went out but without really knowing where to go and

    3 how to go.

    4 Q. You've given an opinion as to where the

    5 shells were falling in terms of Vitez and then some on

    6 your village. Could you actually see the fall or

    7 explosion of these shells, or was it the sound that led

    8 you to that belief?

    9 A. Shells, these which fell, and the

    10 configuration of my village is such that you cannot see

    11 more than 20 per cent of it from one particular spot,

    12 but all the shells that came, came from the Zenica

    13 territory, that is, from Preocica, Lupac.

    14 Q. How were you able to say that you knew they

    15 were coming from that direction? Again, was it the

    16 sound of shells travelling? What gave you that basis

    17 for that opinion?

    18 A. Well, they could not come from any other side

    19 but the Zenica area.

    20 Q. How far is your village of Krcevine -- I hope

    21 I'm pronouncing it correctly -- Krcevine from Ahmici?

    22 Can you say how far that is, sir?

    23 A. Krcevine is about -- somewhere around eight

    24 to nine kilometres away from Ahmici.

    25 Q. So would it be fair to say that any events



  90. 1 that occurred in Ahmici between, indeed, say, the 16th

    2 of April onwards through that month, you would have no

    3 knowledge of those events directly?

    4 A. Something was known but it was all rumours.

    5 There were no reliable sources to learn from.

    6 Q. It seems from within your community there was

    7 no shooting, small-arms shooting, between people for

    8 perhaps another day or two after the 16th; is that

    9 right? I think you said that it was the 18th that that

    10 started.

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. At that point, I think you've used the

    13 expression of being mobilised, but had you had any

    14 village, or community, or civilian defence duties that

    15 he had performed or that you were enlisted to perform

    16 in the event of such a conflict?

    17 A. No, we did not have any duties.

    18 Q. Were you in any way a member of the HVO prior

    19 to the 16th of April?

    20 A. I was only a member of the HDZ, not the HVO,

    21 because at that time, I was already a man of advanced

    22 age, a man of 46.

    23 Q. What was the manner in which you were

    24 mobilised on the 18th of April? How did you receive

    25 the information that you were mobilised?



  91. 1 A. That day, I'm going back to the 17th when we

    2 met at our own initiative, the President of the

    3 neighbourhood community of Krcevine, Ivan Zuljevic

    4 said, "This doesn't all go well," and, "We've got to

    5 get to the boundaries of the village." I stayed there

    6 until Sunday, when that selfsame Ivan Zuljevic told me

    7 that I should instead take my own car in order to

    8 transport the wounded and the dead, and that is what

    9 happened.

    10 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Grabovac.

    11 MR. BLAXILL: That is the conclusion of my

    12 cross-examination, Your Hounours. Thank you.

    13 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    14 Counsel Slokovic-Glumac.

    15 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Thank you, Your

    16 Honour.

    17 Re-examined by Ms. Slokovic-Glumac:

    18 Q. Mr. Grabovac, will you tell us how many

    19 members of your family were killed in this war, just to

    20 see how many?

    21 A. In my family, blood relatives, 18 persons

    22 were killed, including those three times removed.

    23 Q. When you said the shelling came from

    24 Preocica, Lupac, Zenica, or Preocica and Lupac,

    25 ethnically speaking, what villages are those, Muslim or



  92. 1 Croat?

    2 A. Preocica is mostly a Muslim village with

    3 several orthodox or, rather, Serb families.

    4 Q. And Lupac?

    5 A. Lupac was a purely Muslim village.

    6 Q. You also said that shelling came from the

    7 direction of Zenica?

    8 A. Not from Zenica but from the direction of

    9 Zenica, because Preocica and Lupac were at a much

    10 higher altitude than my village. My village is several

    11 hundred metres below these two villages.

    12 Q. I just want to ask you to tell us -- I don't

    13 know if you understood my learned friend from the

    14 Prosecution properly. He asked you if you had any

    15 duties in the village, whether there were any village

    16 guards, among other things. Were there village guards

    17 in Krcevine?

    18 A. Yes, there were, but we did not carry any

    19 weapons for anything but just because of crime. In my

    20 village, there were about 25 or 26 Muslim families, and

    21 they also carried rifles in order to protect their

    22 families because of crime.

    23 On various occasions, this so-called ramp,

    24 that is where the railway tracks passed, that is where

    25 we met with Muslims who had rifles. That is one or two



  93. 1 rifles, just as we did, one or two when we were on

    2 duty. We would greet one another as neighbours, as

    3 brothers, not -- unaware what was in store for us in

    4 the days to come.

    5 Q. When you are saying that you carried a rifle

    6 because of crime, you mean that you did not carry it to

    7 defend yourselves against Muslims; is that so?

    8 A. It is, because crime appeared, and in the

    9 village it happened often that somebody could not come

    10 and so there was the empty space. There was nobody to

    11 look after the village, to patrol the village, and we

    12 simply visited several houses where I lived in the

    13 western part and also in the other part, in the

    14 northern part from Preocica, and they did the same

    15 thing. But it did happen, for instance, that nobody

    16 would be anywhere around the place and yet we feared

    17 criminals and we wanted to protect our village.

    18 Q. All right. Thank you very much,

    19 Mr. Grabovac.

    20 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Mr. President, I have

    21 no more questions. Thank you.

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. We have no

    23 questions. Thank you so much, Mr. Grabovac, for

    24 testifying. You may now be released.

    25 (The witness withdrew)



  94. 1 JUDGE CASSESE: We could probably call the

    2 next witness, Mr. Safradin.

    3 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Mr. President,

    4 unfortunately, we didn't manage to get another witness

    5 for today. That would have been the fifth witness, and

    6 we thought that -- well, we have some certain problems

    7 with the witnesses, so we're going to have our next

    8 witness tomorrow. This decision to change the

    9 schedule, that you took, also resulted in the fact that

    10 we did not have enough witnesses in The Hague, because

    11 instead of working Wednesday all day, we were notified

    12 that we would spend all day Monday here.

    13 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. We do appreciate that.

    14 Thank you. So we will start tomorrow with

    15 Mr. Safradin, but we have noticed that out of the what,

    16 seven remaining witnesses, four are character

    17 witnesses. Is that so?

    18 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Only two will be

    19 character witnesses, and two are going to give some

    20 information on facts related to the events of the 15th

    21 and/or 16th, and these facts are already contained in

    22 the summary, in the summary of their statements. That

    23 is to say, they are not going to be testifying about

    24 new facts but only those that are mentioned there.

    25 There are only two character witnesses that we'd like



  95. 1 to hear. As for the rest, we are going to give signed

    2 statements, signed and certified.

    3 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Since you may

    4 remember that we, on the 17th of February, '99, issued

    5 an order which, among other things, requested Defence

    6 counsel to refrain from asking fact witnesses questions

    7 which are designed solely to prove the good character

    8 of the accused and, more generally, we called upon

    9 Defence counsel to refrain from calling character

    10 witnesses.

    11 I, of course, will admit these two character

    12 witnesses, but we would like to suggest that the

    13 Defence counsel should confine themselves to a very

    14 brief examination-in-chief. In particular, you don't

    15 need, I think, to go into this question of the folklore

    16 club because, I think, this has not been disputed by

    17 the Prosecutor and, I think, we heard a lot of evidence

    18 about that particular club, and dancing, and so on.

    19 All right. So we will adjourn until tomorrow

    20 at 9.00. Tomorrow we will be sitting from 9.00 until

    21 1.30. No sitting in the afternoon.

    22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

    23 at 5.10 p.m., to be reconvened on

    24 Tuesday, the 23rd day of March, 1999

    25 at 9.00 a.m.