1 Tuesday, 25th May, 1999
2 (Open session)
3 (The accused entered court)
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.20 a.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-95-16-T, the
6 Prosecutor versus Zoran Kupreskic, Mirjan Kupreskic,
7 Vlatko Kupreskic, Drago Josipovic, Dragan Papic, and
8 Vladimir Santic.
9 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Good morning. We
10 apologise for the delay. I understand the technicians
11 had a few problems, but I very much hope that in the
12 future the technicians will sort out the problems by
13 8.30 so that we don't have any delay, and I will send a
14 letter to the registrar asking her to urge the
15 technicians to comply with this request.
16 Before we start, may I ask Counsel Krajina to
17 clarify his motion, in particular why he wants the
18 Court to call the witness as a Court witness.
19 MR. KRAJINA: Good morning, Your Honours.
20 Mr. President, as you know, we have submitted
21 a motion whereby we asked the Court to accept our
22 proposal to call and hear a new witness who had not
23 been announced as a witness earlier on, and if
24 necessary, allow me to explain the reasons why we feel
25 that the Court should call him.
1I should like to point out that this is a
2 witness of Muslim ethnicity who is living and working
3 in the area which is the subject of this hearing in
4 court. The man comes from the village of Ahmici, and
5 talking to us, he agreed to testify in this Court on
6 condition that the Court summon him, because he feels
7 that his appearance in this Tribunal, at the request of
8 the Defence of the accused alone, could possibly, in
9 the area in which he lives, cause some distrust towards
10 him, and that is why we thought that this could be a
11 justified reason for the Court to call him. In other
12 words, the reasons are the same as we have given for
13 previous two or three witnesses that we asked the Court
14 to call. Those would be our main reasons, Your
15 Honours. Thank you.
16 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
17 Counsel Susak, on the very same point?
18 MR. SUSAK: Your Honours, I should like to
19 express my gratitude to the Trial Chamber on behalf of
20 Drago Josipovic, his family, and in my personal name,
21 for the understanding shown by the Trial Chamber for
22 Josipovic and the decision whereby he was allowed to
23 travel to Santici to attend the funeral of his mother.
24 At the same time, I wish to thank the Trial Chamber for
25 the high degree of confidence shown in Drago Josipovic
1by this decision. Thank you.
2 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
3 (Trial Chamber confers)
4 JUDGE CASSESE: We have decided, in light of
5 the remarks just made by Counsel Krajina, to grant his
6 motion. So it is granted, so we will call this witness
7 as a Court witness, and we may now move on to our
9 MR. BLAXILL: May I interpose for one second,
10 Mr. President?
11 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes.
12 MR. BLAXILL: Your Honours, you will recall
13 the other day Counsel Susak raised the question of a
14 certain name and a person whom he wished to try and
15 trace for the purposes of contact and potential
16 interview. Whilst that has been an issue fully covered
17 when we submitted the Rule 67 application to Your
18 Honours, we have undertaken further inquiries within
19 our own records, and we frankly do not have any form of
20 contact address or number that we could supply, nor do
21 we have any way to contact the person and even ask if
22 he would permit an interview with the Defence.
23 We have, in fact, I think, gone a stage
24 further and beyond the duty or any duty upon us and
25 have raised an inquiry with the Bosnian authorities.
1We have no response in that quarter at this time. --
2 THE INTERPRETER: Could you slow down,
3 please, for the interpreters.
4 MR. BLAXILL: We have no response at this
5 time, but if and when we do hear anything, I think,
6 perhaps, in fairness to the individual concerned, if
7 traced, we would certainly request that person to
8 consider speaking to Mr. Susak, and we would advise
9 counsel accordingly. So that is the present position
10 as regards his last inquiry. Thank you.
11 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you so much.
12 Counsel Susak?
13 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, the Defence has
14 received annex V with respect to the person the
15 Prosecutor is referring to, but this annex VI has
16 blacked-out portions, and since the Trial Chamber has
17 instructed the Prosecutor to supply the Defence with
18 annex VI without any deletions, could the Trial Chamber
19 instruct the Prosecutor to provide the Defence with
20 annex V in full, because, in that way, we will see the
21 person that we are talking about, because it has the
22 name and surname, the date of birth, and the place of
23 residence of that person written in that document.
24 May I add that different names were used for
25 the same person in various places, which has caused
1confusion both for the Trial Chamber and for the
2 Defence, and we are talking about mitigating evidence.
3 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Blaxill?
4 MR. BLAXILL: Your Honours, the document I
5 know that my learned friend refers to is annex V. That
6 was in fact submitted, I think, in full, to Your
7 Honours. We have looked at it in its unexpurgated
8 form, and it does not contain an address or number
9 whereby that person can be contacted. I think the
10 matters that were redacted from that document related
11 to comments by an investigator regarding the witness
12 and personal details of the investigator. I can assure
13 my learned friend that the document does not contain
14 the address. We have looked. Your Honours have seen
15 that document yourselves.
16 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, yes. I think the
17 Prosecutor is right, so there is no further matter to
18 discuss, and I suggest that we move on to our next
19 witness. This is witness Krizanac.
20 Yes, Counsel Krajina?
21 MR. KRAJINA: Thank you. Mr. President, with
22 your leave, allow me to supply a list of witnesses that
23 we intend to hear this week. May I note that we have
24 not managed to bring witness Dragan Samija, who was on
25 our previous list of the 19th of April, under number
110, the reason being that members of his family a few
2 days ago suffered a very serious traffic accident so
3 that this witness is unable to leave his immobile
4 mother and seriously injured sister whom he is the only
5 one to take care of. We will do our best to bring him
6 in next week. We are not sure that we will be able to
7 do so, but we will inform Your Honours of this in due
9 One further point I should like to make is
10 that in the Defence team today, we have my legal
11 assistant, colleague Danijel Gradac, from Zagreb.
12 Thank you very much.
13 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I think -- yes,
14 Counsel Susak, did you ask for the floor? No? Sorry.
15 I was wrong.
16 So shall we start, then, with Mrs. Krizanac,
17 and I understand no protective measures have been
19 (The witness entered court)
20 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning, madam. Could
21 you please stand and make the solemn declaration?
22 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
23 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
25 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be
1seated. Counsel Pavkovic?
2 MR. PAVKOVIC: (Interpretation) Good morning,
3 Your Honours. Good morning, madam.
4 THE WITNESS: Good morning.
5 WITNESS: DRAGICA KRIZANAC
6 Examined by Mr. Pavkovic:
7 Q. I am attorney Pavkovic, and we have conversed
8 twice briefly before this. Today, I should like us to
9 comment on a few issues with you, since after those
10 conversations we had not agreed that you would appear
11 here as a Defence witness, and later on I proposed that
12 the Court call you as a Court witness.
13 I would like to ask you to say a few words by
14 way of introduction.
15 Do you require any kind of protection
16 regarding your appearance in this Tribunal today?
17 A. In what sense?
18 Q. Do you feel it necessary for your statement
19 today and your very appearance in this court to be a
20 secret that only the people here present would be aware
22 A. I don't mind.
23 MR. PAVKOVIC: (Interpretation) So, Your
24 Honours, as you see, the witness feels that she doesn't
25 need any protection.
1Q. Let us begin now.
2 Mrs. Krizanac, would you first please
3 introduce yourself to the Court?
4 A. My name?
5 Q. Yes. If you have any nickname. No, remain
7 A. My name is Dragica Krizanac. I was married
8 Alilovic. Since my husband has died, so my maiden name
9 is Krizanac, my married name, Alilovic. I have been
10 living in Amsterdam for seven years with two minor
12 Q. That is sufficient. Thank you.
13 So you have just told us that you are living
14 here in the Netherlands in Amsterdam?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Do you have a family who you're living with?
17 A. I'm living with my two children, who are both
18 under age.
19 Q. How old are your children?
20 A. The older child is fifteen and a half, and
21 that is a daughter, and my son, who is the younger
22 child, is nine years old.
23 Q. Could you give us their names?
24 A. My daughter's name is Emilija Alilovic, and
25 my son's name is Petar Alilovic.
1Q. Would you tell us whether your children are
2 attending school today?
3 A. Yes. They are regularly attending school.
4 Q. Could you tell me when exactly you arrived in
5 the Netherlands?
6 A. I arrived in the Netherlands on the 30th of
7 April, 1992.
8 Q. Who came with you at the time?
9 A. I came with my two children.
10 Q. Where did you come from?
11 A. I came from Bosnia, from Vitez, via Vienna.
12 Bosnia, Vienna, Amsterdam.
13 Q. Does that mean that until going to Vienna and
14 then Amsterdam, you had lived in Vitez?
15 A. Yes. I lived in Vitez all the time. Vienna
16 was just the transit place where I changed trains.
17 Q. Where did you live until 1992?
18 A. I, my husband, and two children lived in
19 Vitez, in the centre of the town of Vitez, until that
21 Q. Can you give us your address?
22 A. The address was Partizanska Street, number 5,
23 Vitez. I think the name of the street has been changed
24 in the meantime.
25 Q. You said you lived with your husband. What
1was his name?
2 A. His name was Stipo Alilovic.
3 Q. Did he have a nickname?
4 A. Yes. Everyone knew him as Brko, meaning
6 Q. Tell us, where did you used to work, if at
8 A. Yes, I worked in the military factory called
9 Slobodan Princip Seljo for about 13 years until 1991.
10 Then that one year, '91 to '92, we were laid off, so I
11 spent a year in that status until I left for Holland.
12 Q. Tell us, your husband, Stipo --
13 A. He was also working.
14 Q. Where was he working?
15 A. He was a private entrepreneur until 1991. He
16 had a small store of his own, a firm of his own in the
17 centre of Vitez.
18 Q. Can you tell us where Stipo was born?
19 A. Stipo was born in the village of Nadioci,
20 about five kilometres from the centre of Vitez.
21 Q. Did he have brothers and sisters?
22 A. Yes, he had three brothers and four sisters.
23 Q. Could you give us their names?
24 A. His brother's name was Mato Alilovic. He's
25 still alive; Mirko Alilovic, who died before the war;
1Ivo Alilovic, who also died before the war. His
2 sisters are Ankica Alilovic, who is alive; Marija
3 Alilovic, who is alive, and Ivka Alilovic, who is
4 living in Vienna, who is also alive, and the oldest
5 sister, who is also alive.
6 So among the men, there's only one living
7 brother, Mato.
8 Q. Where is he living?
9 A. He's living in the family home in Nadioci,
10 where my husband was born.
11 Q. Tell me, why did you leave Bosnia?
12 A. The first reason was that my husband happened
13 to be visiting with his sister, who was living in
14 Vienna when the war broke out. The war broke out in
15 Sarajevo, and he was already in Vienna. The roads were
16 no longer possible for him to return when the war in
17 Sarajevo started, so we agreed by telephone that I
18 should go to Amsterdam and that he would come to
19 Amsterdam too. So we agreed to go to the Netherlands.
20 That was the first reason.
21 The second reason was we saw that the war was
22 in the offing, there was no work, that there was
23 general chaos, that the war had really begun, and we
24 didn't want to participate in that war.
25 Q. You said that when the war broke out, Stipo
1was in Vienna. Could you tell us when that was?
2 A. My husband left on the 23rd of March, 1992,
3 to go to Vienna about a month before me.
4 Q. Does that mean that when you reached Vienna,
5 all of you together went on?
6 A. No. My husband had already gone to
7 Amsterdam, and he was waiting for me and the children
8 in Amsterdam.
9 Q. Where did you meet?
10 A. We met at the central station in Amsterdam.
11 He was already in a hotel. He had been there for seven
12 days, and he was waiting for us.
13 Q. After that, where did you go with your
15 A. Then we reported to the police for aliens,
16 and they sent us to the asylum centre in Heidehoek
17 in the Netherlands. But we spent only one
18 weekend there, and after that we asked for the asylum
19 and we went to Brabant, that is, to Rijsbergen near
21 Q. You said you applied for asylum. Did you
22 have, on that occasion, to show some of your personal
23 documents, your papers, to the authorities?
24 A. Yes, all that we had, such as the birth
25 certificate, for instance, our passports, our identity
1cards. Yes, you have to hand over all that you have to
2 the authorities, and they take it and keep it until the
3 procedure lasts. That is, the police for foreigners,
4 for aliens, keeps them until your case is solved.
5 Q. But were you issued some other identification
6 papers to use meanwhile?
7 A. No. We were at this asylum centre, and every
8 day you are issued this card and every day you have to
9 report, that is, you have to be there. We were then
10 issued a certificate by the police for the aliens, that
11 they were in possession of such and such documents.
12 Q. Tell us, how long did you stay at this
13 reception centre?
14 A. Well, we changed three of the centres. In
15 the first one, we were for a month and a half. This is
16 for the so-called processing centre. Next to Arnhem,
17 which is the second one, and that is where we spent two
18 months, and the third one in Rosmalen, next
19 to 's-Hertogenbosch, which was the third place where we
20 spent about four months.
21 Q. Now, we talk about the time. How long did
22 you spend in those centres?
23 A. Altogether, I think we spent seven months in
24 those asylum centres.
25 Q. When you say "we," you mean the whole family?
2 Q. So, you say "seven months." What year was
4 A. 1992, or to be more precise, between the 1st
5 of May, '92, until the 1st of December, '92. On the
6 1st of December, we moved to Amsterdam to live. That
7 is, we came from the asylum centre to Amsterdam, to a
8 flat, to a regular flat.
9 Q. That means that you took out a flat in
11 A. Well, that was done during our asylum centre
12 procedure. That is, that was how it was done. We had
13 not been granted asylum yet, but we were given a flat
14 because, after all, we were a family with children so
15 we could not stay in the centre for long and we were
16 given this flat, and that was the procedure.
17 Q. Do you remember, from the time you spent in
18 these centres, do you remember the name of a person or
19 persons who, like you, arrived from Bosnia?
20 A. Yes. In 1992, these asylum centres were full
21 of Bosnian, but these were not people we knew. Nobody
22 came from the area of Vitez. There were people from
23 East Bosnia, from Sarajevo. That is where the war was
24 taking place, and that is why they came, so that we
25 knew absolutely nobody in the asylum centre.
1Q. And when you came to Amsterdam and were
2 accommodated in this flat, did you begin to do
3 something, to work somewhere or something?
4 A. No, but the children were immediately
5 enrolled in the school, the Dutch school that is, the
6 elementary school or, rather, the older child in
7 elementary school and the younger in the kindergarten.
8 One parent had to look after the children every day,
9 that is, take the children to the school and bring them
10 back. That is how it is in Dutch schools.
11 So one parent had to be with the children,
12 because they were small children, and the other parent
13 had to learn Dutch. That was the procedure. We agreed
14 that my husband would take the children to school and I
15 would take Dutch lessons. So I went to school every
16 day to learn Dutch, and that is the procedure
17 applicable to all asylum seekers.
18 Q. Your husband, you said, took care of the
20 A. Yes. He looked after household chores and
21 children and --
22 Q. Right. But let us go back to the period of
23 time that you spent in various reception centres. Were
24 you with your husband there every day, all the time?
25 A. Yes, every day, every moment, because a
1family has a room there with a bathroom. There is a
2 canteen where you eat. You need to have it stamped
3 every day, there were special cards for adults and for
4 children, so that we were there day in and day out and
5 we were together in those asylum centres.
6 Q. When you returned to Amsterdam and after what
7 you told us, your husband looked after the children and
8 you attended language courses, did you strike a
9 friendship with anyone?
10 A. Well, not true friendship, I wouldn't say so,
11 but we came to know people who lived on the same
12 street, and they come from all ethnic groups. At
13 school, of course, we met the teacher, the principal of
14 the school, other children. So little by little, we
15 began to know various people, because when we came
16 there, we knew no one. We did not have any relatives
17 in the Netherlands.
18 Q. Could you perhaps recall a name from that
20 A. Yes. Mrs. Johanna Helmer, who lived three
21 streets away from us, her children attended the same
22 class as my daughter. The lady is Dutch.
23 Q. Did you go with the children to the
24 kindergarten and the school at times?
25 A. Oh, yes, yes. It was mandatory. One of the
1parents would have to go to the kindergarten once a
2 week, because the child was just beginning to learn the
3 language. So it was obligatory for one of the parents
4 to spend the whole day with the child at the
5 kindergarten, and sometimes I went and sometimes my
7 Q. From what I understand, your husband did not
8 and could not, indeed, be absent for a while without
9 your knowledge about it.
10 A. No, because, yes, we did have a flat, but we
11 still had not been granted asylum. We were still
12 waiting for the decision, and we could not absent
13 ourselves for more than a day.
14 Q. Which also means that you did not have
15 relevant papers or anything?
16 A. No, absolutely not. The only paper we had
17 was with the Post Bank. We had to open an account
18 there, and then the Post Bank issued us an identity
19 card. We couldn't get any other paper, only that paper
20 from the bank with which we held our account.
21 Q. Right. Now, if I may try to take you back to
22 1993, you know when the war broke out in Central
23 Bosnia, you heard. Did you keep in touch with your
24 relatives, somebody in Vitez, by telephone or
1A. No. At that time, it was impossible to
2 establish telephone communication, impossible. We knew
3 there was war there because there was CNN and
4 television and the press which reached Amsterdam, such
5 as Slobodna Dalmacija, Arena, which still reaches
6 Amsterdam, so it was either through written press or
8 Q. So in 1993 when the war broke out in Central
9 Bosnia, notably in Vitez and around that, you were
10 aware about that, you knew about that?
11 A. Yes, yes, absolutely. Of course we wanted to
12 know about these things. That is our country.
13 Q. Do you know what year that was?
14 A. 1993.
15 Q. Where was your husband at the time?
16 A. In 1993? In Amsterdam.
17 Q. As of the moment when you met in Amsterdam,
18 that is, when you arrived from Vienna and he was
19 already there, until April 1993, did your husband ever
20 leave the family?
21 A. No, absolutely not.
22 MR. PAVKOVIC: Tell me, Mr. President, very
23 briefly, could we go into closed session, because I
24 need to mention some names of some persons under
1JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, we can go into closed
2 session -- into private session, please.
3 (Private session)
13 redacted page 9305 – private session
14 redacted page 9306 – private session
13 redacted page 9307 – private session
14 (Open session)
15 MR. PAVKOVIC:
16 Q. Mrs. Krizanac, at the very beginning of your
17 testimony today, you said that "Brko" was your
18 husband's nickname. What's that particular nickname?
19 Will you please explain it to us?
20 A. Well, because my husband always wore a
21 mustache, and a considerable mustache, so if somebody
22 could not remember his name or if his name escaped
23 somebody, he would refer to him as Brko, which means
24 "mustache." So that is what they called him in Vitez.
25 Q. Did he perhaps have a beard too?
1A. Yes, of late, towards the end of his life, he
2 also wore a beard. But earlier, as a young man, he
3 only had a mustache, but yes, in Amsterdam, he also had
4 a beard and a mustache.
5 Q. People say he was very hirsute, that is, he
6 had a very strong beard and a well-grown beard, and
7 that is how he was recognisable at the time. He could
8 not be mistaken for anyone else because he had this
9 very strong beard?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Tell us, we learned that your husband died;
12 when was it?
13 A. My husband died on the 25th of October, 1995,
14 and he was buried five days after that, on the 30th of
15 October, 1995.
16 Q. Just one more sentence. So he never left, he
17 never went back to Bosnia?
18 A. No. No. No.
19 Q. And today, do you keep in touch with your
20 relatives in Bosnia?
21 A. Yes, absolutely.
22 Q. With his brother and --
23 Q. Yes.
24 Q. Do you go there?
25 A. I do, once a year, in summer.
1Q. Do you have any problems there?
2 A. Well, not really.
3 Q. Do you have any property over there?
4 A. Yes, yes.
5 Q. What do you have there?
6 A. I have land. Land.
7 Q. While you were here, until 1995 or, rather,
8 until your husband was still there, did you have any
9 financial obligations, people who were employed, while
10 the war was going on there?
11 A. No, absolutely not.
12 Q. No, or is it that you don't know that?
13 A. No, because we had no contact with them, so
14 we had no obligations either.
15 Q. Yes, you told us that you did not maintain
16 contact with anyone.
17 A. No. Just as an example, in June '93, my
18 mother died, and I knew nothing about that. I received
19 a letter three months later. I still have it. It was
20 through the Red Cross, informing me that my mother had
21 died. So we absolutely had no contact. We were
22 completely out of touch.
23 Q. Did you know that your husband had been
25 A. Yes.
1Q. So please, if I ask you some more questions,
2 do not mention any names at all. The indictment was
3 issued posthumously?
4 A. As far as I know, two days after his
5 funeral. He was buried on the 30th of October, 1995,
6 and I saw from the indictment that it was issued on the
7 2nd of November of the same year, which means two days
8 after his funeral, the indictment was confirmed.
9 Q. Did you talk to any officials of this
10 Tribunal, in the broadest sense, any investigators, in
11 connection with all the things that we have mentioned
13 A. Yes, last year in May I came to the Tribunal,
14 and I talked about all these things linked to my
16 Q. Did you hand in any documents then which can
17 corroborate what you have been saying?
18 A. Not at the time, but my attorney, who has
19 offices in The Hague, handed to the Tribunal all the
20 documents that we had collected together.
21 Q. So you handed to him all your documents
22 regarding your residence, your land ownership rights,
23 your status as refugees, for both you and your husband?
24 A. Yes.
25 MR. PAVKOVIC: I should just like to recall,
1Your Honours, that these documents have been entered
2 into the record as Document D2/6.
3 Q. Thank you, madam. That is all I wanted.
4 Thank you for your assistance.
5 MR. PAVKOVIC: Thank you, Your Honours. That
6 will be all.
7 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Counsel Pavkovic.
8 Is any other Defence counsel going to
9 cross-examine this witness?
10 There's no cross-examination?
11 All right. So the Prosecutor.
12 MR. TERRIER: Thank you, Mr. President.
13 Cross-examined by Mr. Terrier:
14 Q. Good morning, Mrs. Krizanac. My name is
15 Terrier. I'm one of the counsel of the Prosecution,
16 and I have several questions for you following the
17 testimony you have made.
18 First of all, I should refer to the last
19 years you and your family spent in Bosnia. You told us
20 that your husband worked in a private business until
21 1991. Could you be more precise about that?
22 A. It's a private firm of which he was the
23 owner, and it was called Boutique Ema. It was
24 registered in Vitez.
25 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness speak
1into the microphone, please.
2 THE WITNESS: (In English) Sorry. Sorry.
3 A. My husband worked as a private entrepreneur.
4 His boutique was called Ema, and it was registered
5 under that name in Vitez municipality.
6 MR. TERRIER:
7 Q. Until what date was this shop working under
8 your husband's management?
9 A. I don't know the exact date, because it was
10 not my business but his, but I know it was until 1991.
11 Q. Did your husband have any employment or any
12 resources between 1991 and his departure for the
14 A. No, because the whole system collapsed. I
15 wasn't working either. Nobody was working, as far as I
16 know, in those days. Until April '92, I think people
17 simply were not working, at least not in our
19 Q. What were the resources, means of livelihood,
20 between 1991 and March 1992?
21 A. We lived off our savings, what I had made at
22 work and my husband from his business.
23 Q. Didn't your husband have a restaurant in
24 Santici before he opened the shop Ema in Vitez that you
1A. Yes, from 1980 until 1988 or '89, he was a
2 private entrepreneur also, but he held a coffee shop,
3 and later a restaurant. I think it's called -- Nadioci
4 or Ahmici, not Santici -- but anyway, these localities
5 are very close to one another. He had a restaurant
6 called Sangaj.
7 Q. Why did he stop running this restaurant, your
9 A. Because it no longer paid. He wasn't making
10 a profit.
11 Q. What happened to that restaurant after 1989?
12 A. It wasn't our house, but it was in the house
13 of my husband's relative, and the owner of the house
14 took over the running of the restaurant. It was a
15 restaurant that we had rented. It wasn't in our
16 ownership. We didn't own it.
17 Q. So after 1989, you continued to rent the
18 premises of that restaurant to somebody who ran that
19 restaurant. Until when did this situation continue?
20 A. No, in 1989, he returned the premises to
21 their owner, and he opened the Ema boutique in Vitez,
22 in other words, he started up a new business in 1989,
23 so he was no longer in the restaurant business, and he
24 switched to trade.
25 Q. We misunderstood one another, but a further
1precision. Did your husband retain his rights over
2 that restaurant?
3 A. Yes, he made a profit from that restaurant,
4 but the house in which the restaurant was housed was
5 not our ownership, and in 1989 we stopped renting those
6 premises. We stopped working in those premises. We
7 returned the premises to their owner, and the owner may
8 have rented it out to somebody else.
9 Q. Just a moment. You explained why you and
10 your family left Bosnia to go to Holland. Do you
11 remember, when your husband asked for the status of a
12 political refugee from the authorities for himself and
13 your family, did he give certain reasons for the
14 motives for his departure? Are you aware of that?
15 A. Yes. He explained, when asked why he was
16 asking for asylum in the Netherlands, he explained that
17 he didn't want to be a soldier, to be killed or to kill
18 other people. That he was against war as matter of
19 conviction and that he didn't want to wear any uniform,
20 and that is why he went abroad. He saw that the war
21 had begun and that he would be forced to wear one or
22 another uniform.
23 Q. Do you remember, madam, that your husband
24 told the Dutch authorities, when he made this request
25 for refugee status, he was called on the 27th of March,
11992, to do his military service in the army and that
2 he refused and that there was danger of him being
4 A. I don't know, because when he was making that
5 statement, he had to be alone with representatives of
6 the authorities. All I know is what he told me, so I
7 don't know all the details of that interview.
8 When asking for an asylum, the interview was
9 not conducted with the whole family but with each adult
10 person separately. So I was interviewed separately and
11 my husband was interviewed separately, and these things
12 are confidential.
13 Q. I understand. But still, your husband had no
14 reason to say to the Dutch authorities things that were
15 not correct?
16 A. No, he had no reason at all.
17 Q. It appears that he told the Dutch authorities
18 that he was still in Bosnia on the 27th of March,
19 1992. Can you confirm that?
20 A. No. No. He said, as far as I know, that he
21 was in Vienna and that he came to Amsterdam, and he
22 confirmed this by showing his passport, which had the
23 stamp with the appropriate date when he entered the
24 Netherlands from Vienna by train.
25 Q. Do you know how he reached Vienna from Vitez?
1A. He travelled from Vitez to Vienna by bus. I
2 think this was a private bus line which transported
3 workers working in Austria on Sundays. I know it was a
4 Sunday, and it was a direct line going from Vitez to
5 Vienna. It was for the workers who would come home for
6 the weekend from Austria and then go back.
7 Q. Is it possible that your husband told the
8 Dutch authorities, when requesting refugee status, that
9 one of his reasons for leaving Bosnia was also the
10 stress caused by his business, which resulted in
11 psychiatric treatment in hospital?
12 A. No, I'm not aware of that.
13 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, I do not wish
14 to interrupt the cross-examination, but I must point
15 out that the witness said that she was not present when
16 her husband was interviewed by the Dutch authorities
17 and that she does not know the contents of that
18 conversation. I don't think it is appropriate for the
19 Prosecutor to present the witness with something that
20 she has said she is not aware of. He is talking about
21 something that she knows nothing about. So how can she
22 say whether that was so or not?
23 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, but listen,
24 Mr. Pavkovic. It is up to the witness to say "Yes"
25 or "No," "I was present" or "I was not present." So I
1think it is quite appropriate for the Prosecutor to ask
2 these questions. The witness can very well say, "I
3 cannot answer your question because I wasn't present."
4 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President --
5 MR. PAVKOVIC: But she has already said
6 that. She has just said that. So I think the witness
7 should be spared further questioning about that. That
8 is my opinion.
9 MR. TERRIER: But Mr. Pavkovic, I fully
10 understood that the witness wasn't present. On the
11 other hand, it seems to me quite possible that the
12 witness could confirm or deny the realism of certain
13 statements made by her husband to the Dutch authorities
14 and specifically the allegation of psychiatric
15 hospitalisation, so that the witness could say whether
16 her husband was hospitalised or not for psychiatric
18 Q. Madam, would you please quickly answer this
19 question. As far as you know, was your husband, before
20 leaving Bosnia, hospitalised for psychiatric reasons?
21 A. Not before leaving Bosnia, but in 1986 --
22 these were reasons of a private nature -- he was in
23 hospital, yes, but not before leaving Bosnia. In 1986
24 this happened.
25 Q. I don't quite understand what you have said.
1In 1986 you were still in Bosnia, and therefore this
2 hospitalisation for private reasons was indeed before
3 you left Bosnia.
4 MR. TERRIER: I'm just checking the record,
5 Mr. President. This is just for the record.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Thank you, madam.
8 A. You're welcome.
9 Q. This refugee status, was it granted
11 A. No. We acquired refugee status on the 19th
12 of May, 1993, but the procedure lasted for another
13 month, that is, until we got the official documents as
14 refugees from the police for aliens. We received the
15 papers, the documents, at the end of June.
16 Q. Were you and your husband quite certain that
17 you would acquire refugee status, or did you
18 contemplate the possibility of this status being
20 A. Nobody was sure. We spoke to other people in
21 the asylum, and there were 400 people there, and no one
22 was certain, so we weren't either.
23 Q. Is it true that a first-instance-level
24 commission rejected your request, that you appealed
25 that decision, and it was after that appeal that you
1were granted refugee status?
2 A. Yes, we did receive a document rejecting our
3 request, but as explained to us by the attorney, this
4 was of a formal nature because the Dutch rejected these
5 requests at first, waiting for developments in Bosnia.
6 As the war escalated, then they were granted. All
7 people who made such a request were granted such a
8 status. The attorney said that this was simply a
9 formal rejection and that we would appeal it, and we
11 Q. Can we say that in April 1993, you were very
12 confident that you would have that status, or were you
13 quite uncertain regarding your future and that you
14 feared that you would not be granted that status? What
15 was your state of mind in April 1993?
16 A. We were more or less certain by then, as we
17 were no longer in that refugee centre, we had already
18 received accommodation, we were receiving welfare, the
19 children could enrol in Dutch schools, which meant a
20 great deal for us, so that we were quite sure that
21 things were developing in the direction of us being
22 granted that status.
23 Q. So at that time -- I'm talking about April
24 1993 -- you had no fears regarding the future of your
25 family and the possibility of the status being rejected
1and of your having to leave the Netherlands? You had
2 no further fears at that time?
3 A. We were quite relatively sure, and we
4 contacted our attorney, who assured us that the Dutch
5 government would grant such a status to all Bosnians
6 because the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina was escalating,
7 so our attorney was giving us hope in that sense.
8 Q. You told us a moment ago, madam, that as
9 identity documents, you and your husband had only the
10 bank cards. I was rather astonished, because it is not
11 up to a bank to issue identity papers, and when you ask
12 for such a status in any country you normally receive
13 some kind of identity document until a decision is
14 taken regarding your request for refugee status.
15 A. Yes, there was a problem for refugees in
16 1993, as all the documents were in possession (sic) of
17 ID papers, and people were already living in cities, in
18 apartments, and when they go to the bank they can't
19 open an account because they want your passport. You
20 tell them, "But the police has our documents." Then
21 they still insist on a passport.
22 Then many of us contacted the
23 Vluchtelingenwerk in Amsterdam, and they agreed with
24 the bank to give us an ID card which would enable us to
25 open an account in the bank. I can show you that ID
1card that my husband had. I have it in my handbag.
2 Q. Yes, please. Would you do that?
3 A. Here it is (witness complies).
4 (Trial Chamber confers)
5 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Terrier, I don't know
6 whether you have very many questions.
7 MR. TERRIER: Well, quite a number.
8 JUDGE CASSESE: Well, in that case, I would
9 suggest a 30-minute break.
10 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
11 --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.
12 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Terrier, you have the
14 MR. TERRIER: Thank you, Sir.
15 Q. Madam, just before the break, you showed us a
16 document which was issued to your husband by the postal
17 administration, and this document is evidence for his
18 identity for any postal transactions. But I didn't
19 have that in mind. What I had in mind was a document
20 issued by the administrative authorities, I believe by
21 the police, the Dutch police. Do you remember that
23 A. No, just that it wasn't only for postal
24 services but also for banking services. It is the Post
25 Bank with which my husband had an account, and he
1needed this card, this identity card, if he was to draw
2 any money.
3 But until we were granted refugee status, we
4 could not be issued any documents at all. Only when we
5 were granted the status of refugees, we were issued a
6 card by the police for aliens, which said that my
7 husband was a recognised refugee in the Netherlands,
8 and after that I could get another document, something,
9 I don't know what to call it, a passport really. Any
10 refugee who had been granted refugee status could also
11 apply for that particular document.
12 Q. Earlier on, you told us that your husband and
13 possibly yourself had to report to the police once a
14 day. Can you confirm that?
15 A. Once a day, people had to report while they
16 were in the asylum-seeking centre. When we came to
17 Amsterdam, then it was enough to report once to the
18 police for the aliens, and until the police summoned
19 you again, you did not have to report there on your
21 Q. Therefore, as of the 1st of December, 1992,
22 you were under no obligation to report regularly,
23 recurrently, to any police station, to any police
25 A. Correct, but this held true of all refugees.
1If you were given an apartment and you lived in an
2 apartment, then until the summons from the police, you
3 did not have to report again.
4 Q. The documents referring to the request for
5 the status as refugee were put into evidence under
6 D2/6. It appears from such documents that unlike what
7 you told us earlier on, that your husband left Bosnia
8 on the 29th of March, 1992, and not on the 23rd of
9 March, as you stated before.
10 A. It was seven years ago. I may have forgotten
11 the dates, but I know it was March of 1992.
12 Q. Do you find it sometimes difficult to
13 remember dates? I would understand that perfectly,
14 because indeed it's a long time ago since that happened
15 and it may prove difficult to be absolutely clear as to
16 a date or as to a location, that it might prove
17 difficult to say where you were on a specific date and
18 a specific location. I would understand that
20 These very documents, in order to account for
21 his departure and for the departure of his family, your
22 husband said that on several occasions he was called by
23 the authorities to join the army, he refused to do so,
24 and that an arrest warrant had been issued against
25 him. Can you confirm all that?
1A. That was his statement that he gave secretly
2 when he asked for the refugee status, but I was not
3 present and I do not know what he said. Only his
4 counsel and somebody from the Ministry of Justice were
6 Q. One clarification. I'm not asking you to
7 confirm the fact that your husband would have stated
8 this or that to the Dutch authorities. What I'm asking
9 you is to confirm or to infirm whether his statement to
10 the Dutch authorities, on the basis of the documents
11 before the Tribunal, are in keeping with your memory.
12 You used to live with him. You were aware of
13 the situation, which was also your situation.
14 Therefore, you were in an ideal position to confirm or
15 infirm what he might have said. Hence my question.
16 Is it accurate to say that before his
17 departure from Bosnia, he had received several requests
18 from the local authorities for him to join the army?
19 A. I don't know. I don't know.
20 Q. I'm asking you to tell us whether, according
21 to your memories, it is accurate to say that your
22 husband, in refusing to comply with such request,
23 feared that he would be regarded as a traitor in his
25 A. He expressed such feelings in all
1conversations, but what he stated officially, I don't
3 Q. What kind of fear did he speak about to you?
4 A. It was simply fear of being a soldier. He
5 did not want to take part in a war. He did not want to
6 put on a uniform. He was like that. I mean he wasn't
7 a man who wanted to put on uniforms and fight in a
8 war. He was a businessman. He was a brinja (phoen),
9 shall I say. He was very social, a very communicative
10 man. He always liked to have coffee or a drink with
11 somebody, to partake of something like that. But he
12 simply wasn't the type. I mean he wasn't the kind of
13 man who would readily wear a uniform and fight.
14 Q. [Indiscernible] the Dutch authorities, on the
15 basis of the documents before the Tribunal. Is it true
16 to say that given that he was regarded as a traitor for
17 not answering the calls by the Croat army, his property
18 ran the risk of being seized under Croatian law?
19 A. He wasn't afraid of that, because at the time
20 when he left Bosnia, an official Croat army did not
21 exist or an army made of Croats only. There was still
22 the JNA as the official army.
23 Q. According to your memories, when did the
24 Croatian army come into existence?
25 A. At the time, I was in the Netherlands, but I
1believe it was in 1993 or thereabouts when fighting
2 began in Central Bosnia, I mean the Croat army in
3 Bosnia. But I really don't know much about that,
4 because I was not there at the time.
5 Q. I'm referring to a report drafted by the
6 Dutch authorities, dated the 14th of May, 1992. This
7 was served to the Tribunal. It is now evidence in the
8 Tribunal's file. It is stated in this report that
9 since your husband failed to join the Croatian army, he
10 feared to be regarded as a traitor and he feared that
11 his property would be seized in keeping and accordance
12 with the Croatian law.
13 Such allegations as drafted in the report and
14 made by your husband, do they have any echo in you? Do
15 you remember your husband saying the same thing?
16 A. No. That was his statement related to the
17 matter of the asylum, but he did not tell me anything
18 about that.
19 Q. Do you have reasons to believe that he might
20 have said things to the Dutch authorities in support of
21 his request for asylum, things that were not accurate?
22 A. Well, he had no reason to. I don't think he
23 had any reason to lie.
24 Q. Earlier on, answering a question put by
25 Mr. Pavkovic, you said that you had property in
1Bosnia. Could you be more specific as to the property
2 you have there?
3 A. My husband had land he inherited from his
5 Q. Did he only have one piece of land?
6 A. There were several lots. I don't know
7 exactly how many, but three or four plots of land. I
8 don't know the size of them.
9 Q. Do you yourself, under your own name, have
10 any property in Bosnia?
11 A. Yes. When I arrived here, I had a small plot
12 of land that I had inherited from my late mother.
13 Q. Did you, at some point in time -- do you know
14 whether at some point in time your husband's property
15 was seized by the Bosnian authorities?
16 A. No, as far as I know.
17 MR. TERRIER: I'm going to ask for the
18 usher's help for several documents to be shown to the
20 THE REGISTRAR: This is Prosecutor's evidence
22 MR. TERRIER:
23 Q. Madam, I hope you have in front of you a
24 document which is a decision issued by the HVO in the
25 municipality of Travnik in February 1993.
1It appears from the decision that all persons
2 who have a duty to participate in the military effort
3 have to report to the military authorities and that all
4 those who fail to do so will be declared as deserters
5 and their property confiscated.
6 It is also stated that Croats who happen to
7 reside abroad will not be regarded as deserters,
8 inasmuch as they have employment as well as a residency
9 permit in that foreign country which makes it possible
10 for them to work on a regular basis and to comply with
11 financial obligations.
12 Were you aware of such a decision, madam?
13 A. No. I have never seen it.
14 Q. Could you tell us what contacts you still had
15 by the end of 1992, early 1993, contacts with people
16 residing in Central Bosnia?
17 A. Towards the end of '92 and in early 1993, we
18 had no contact whatsoever with anyone in Bosnia,
19 neither with the authorities nor with a family.
20 MR. PAVKOVIC: I apologise. Mr. President, I
21 must note that my learned friend is showing to the
22 witness a document relative to the municipality of
23 Travnik, and the witness comes from another area, from
24 another administrative subdivision. She comes from the
25 municipality of Vitez. Now, the question is what does
1this document have to do with her and what kind of
2 consequences -- what kind of effect it had in the
3 territory where she and her husband lived at the time?
4 MR. TERRIER: The question I put to the
5 witness was whether she was aware of the decision. The
6 witness answered that she wasn't, so I'll move on to
7 another question.
8 Q. Madam, could you confirm the fact that
9 throughout this period from December 1992 to April, May
10 '93, you had no contact whatsoever with anybody in
11 Central Bosnia, not even with family members, not even
12 with brothers and sisters of your husband?
13 A. None whatsoever. We had no contact. We
14 could not communicate by telephone because telephones
15 did not work at the time, and we did not know people
16 who came from Bosnia. We live in Amsterdam. We didn't
17 know people who came from that area.
18 Q. I'm still speaking about the period going
19 from December '92 to April or May 1993. During that
20 period, what was the income your family was living on?
21 A. We were receiving social allowance from the
22 municipality of the city -- from the city of Amsterdam,
23 and that was our only source of livelihood.
24 Q. Did you have other sources of income?
25 A. None.
1Q. Answering a question raised by Mr. Pavkovic,
2 you said that in May 1998 you met with Tribunal
3 investigators. Didn't you tell them that from April
4 '92 to July 1993, you worked six days a week from 1.30
5 to midnight, illegally so, in a Croatian restaurant
6 close to Haarlem in Holland, the name of the restaurant
7 being Pula?
8 A. Yes, that is true, but those people saw us as
9 refugees. And since we had children, I was "vrouw
10 vinegar," (phoen) as they say it in the Netherlands. I
11 was simply helping that family, and they were giving us
12 some food, some clothes, and some pocket money for
14 Q. So no matter what income you would draw from
15 that work in the restaurant, it was untrue to say that
16 the only means of income you had at the time was the
17 subsidies, the social benefits that you were getting
18 from the Dutch authorities?
19 A. Well, I did not see it as an income, because
20 there were other families, Dutch families, who would
21 give food or clothes, and everybody was helping the
22 refugees, and so did those people in that restaurant.
23 Q. Did your husband have a non-declared activity
24 as well?
25 A. No.
1Q. Are you sure of that?
2 A. Yes, I am, because when I helped those people
3 in the restaurant, he had to look after the children,
4 take them to school. One of them had to be at home
5 always, and near the school.
6 Q. In other words, the work of taking the
7 children to school, to bring them back from school,
8 would take him the whole day? Is that so?
9 A. Yes, well, children had to go to school in
10 the morning. They would come back around 12.00 or a
11 quarter past 12.00, then they would have their meal.
12 They would have a rest, and then they would go back to
13 school around half past 1.00. Then they had to go back
14 again around 4.00 or quarter past 4.00 and then given
15 another meal, and that would be the whole day.
16 Q. Were you ever able to benefit from your
17 neighbours' help, especially from your neighbours who,
18 like you, were either from Bosnia or from Croatia?
19 A. No, we did not know people from Bosnia.
20 Q. Do you know a person called Besima Zrno,
22 A. Besima Zrno? No.
23 Q. In autumn 1992, didn't your husband go back
24 to Bosnia?
25 A. In the autumn of 1992? No. No way.
1Q. Did he have car in Holland?
2 A. He did.
3 Q. So you didn't have any means of income, you
4 were on social benefits, and still he was able to buy a
5 car; is that so?
6 A. He bought the car from the savings he had
7 brought to the Netherlands, I think, right away, I
8 think it was the summer of 1992. That car cost about
9 2.000 guilders. That was an old car.
10 Q. Did you yourself go back to Bosnia in
11 autumn '92?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Do you know Karlo Halilovic? Karlo
14 Halilovic? Does that ring a bell?
15 A. Karlo Alilovic; there is no "H." Yes, I know
16 him. Karlo Alilovic, the same surname as my
17 husband's. Yes, I do know him. He is a relative, a
18 nephew, his brother's son -- that is, my husband was
19 Karlo Alilovic's uncle.
20 Q. What would Karlo Alilovic do in Bosnia?
21 A. He was in the shipping and transportation
22 business before the war.
23 Q. Madam, you stated that your husband did not
24 go back to Bosnia, never went back to Bosnia, once your
25 family had left Bosnia. Here's my question, and I'm
1only focusing on this date of the 16th of April, 1993,
2 or let's say from the 15th to the 17th of April, 1993.
3 I'd like to know whether you have any documentary
4 evidence or any other evidence showing that your
5 husband was indeed in Holland on the 15th, on the 16th,
6 and on the 17th of April, 1993.
7 A. He was in Amsterdam at the time, at the
8 address we gave you, but those three days, I cannot
9 really remember those days, whether he went somewhere.
10 I know that at that period of time, between March until
11 the end of May, he went to the dentist, and the dentist
12 provided this evidence, and we gave it to my lawyer.
13 But I would not know the dates. I remember that he
14 regularly went to see the dentist.
15 And there were no other important events at
16 the time because we were still waiting for the status.
17 Until you are recognised, the refugee status, you are
18 simply sitting there learning the language and
19 waiting. Only when we were recognised, the refugee
20 status, in the end of June, that is when you begin.
21 That is, you are issued a card allowing you to work,
22 that is, to go to an employment bureau or whatever, and
23 all the other institutions begin to open for you, but
24 as of the moment when you are recognised, the refugee
25 status. So in April, nothing was happening, nothing
1was going on. We were simply waiting for that status.
2 Q. According to the documents served by the
3 Defence, the visits of your husband to the dentist do
4 not refer to the period which is of interest to me.
5 I'm interested in the period of the 15th, 16th, and
6 17th of April, 1993. Is there any single document
7 showing that your husband was indeed either in
8 Amsterdam or in Holland on those dates?
9 A. As far as I know, no. For those three days,
10 specifically, I have no document. We were leading a
11 normal life. I didn't know I would need anything like
12 this. I never expected that anything like this would
13 happen, that I would have to give you an answer as to
14 what happened on those three days seven years ago.
15 Q. Do you know Tomislav Alilovic?
16 A. Yes, it is a relative of my husband's, and I
17 have already mentioned that in Tomislav Alilovic's
18 house, my husband had a restaurant. The house was
19 owned by Tomislav Alilovic. I can't tell you exactly,
20 but it's a relative. He's not a brother, but a more
21 distant relative.
22 Q. Where did Tomislav Alilovic live at the time?
23 A. Which time?
24 Q. Late '92, early '93.
25 A. I don't know. I don't know that, because I
1was in Holland, and I had no contact with him, so I
2 don't know.
3 Q. Didn't you know that Tomislav Alilovic,
4 according to information provided by a witness to the
5 Tribunal, then used to live in northern Germany?
6 A. For many years he did work in Germany and
7 live there with his wife and children, and I think he's
8 still working there. I don't know.
9 JUDGE CASSESE: Mrs. Slokovic-Glumac?
10 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Thank you,
11 Mr. President, but we've changed our mind about this
12 objection. We'll wait for the Prosecutor to continue.
13 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
14 Please go on.
15 MR. TERRIER:
16 Q. So you weren't without knowing that your
17 husband's cousin, Tomislav Alilovic, then lived in
18 northern Germany?
19 A. I knew that for many years he had lived and
20 worked in Germany, but we were not in close contact. I
21 don't think I've seen him for ten years, maybe more
22 than that. I don't know.
23 Q. If you no longer had any contacts any more
24 with Bosnia, that is, at least, you said, because of
25 the lines being down, did you at least have contacts
1with Tomislav Alilovic? Because it seems that
2 telephone lines between Holland and Germany did not
3 make any problems then.
4 A. My husband, during his illness in 1994 and
5 1995, did call up Germany by phone and have contact
6 with his relatives there. I know he contacted Karlo
7 Alilovic frequently during his illness, but I don't
8 know about the rest because I wasn't always at home
9 when he was making these phone calls.
10 Q. Therefore, to make your answer more specific,
11 did you know at all whether your husband had any
12 contacts with his cousin, Karlo Alilovic, at the time
13 while his cousin was in Germany?
14 A. No. Until December 1992, we didn't even have
15 a telephone at home here in Amsterdam.
16 Q. But you had the telephone after December '92,
17 and I'm interested in the period going from
18 December '92 to April '93. Did you know that Tomislav
19 Alilovic, residing in Germany, your husband's cousin,
20 returned to Ahmici on the 15th of April, in the night?
21 A. No, absolutely not. I don't know.
22 MR. TERRIER: I have no further questions.
23 Thank you.
24 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
25 Mr. Pavkovic?
1MR. PAVKOVIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
2 Re-examined by Mr. Pavkovic:
3 Q. Mrs. Krizanac, let me clarify a few points
4 only. I assume that you are aware that today -- that
5 is, 1999 -- regulations on travel in many European
6 countries are more flexible, but that still, even
7 today, you need to have travel documents?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You said yes?
10 A. Yes, of course. You have to have a
12 Q. So when, in 1992, you arrived with your
13 husband, you must have had a travel document, a
14 passport or whatever?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And then, as you have explained here in
17 court, you handed all those documents to the police
18 together with your request for refugee status for you,
19 your husband, and your children?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Until the end of May 1993, you were granted
22 that status, you really could not travel even if you
23 had wanted to?
24 A. Yes, exactly. That is so.
25 Q. You have shown us here a document on the
1basis of which you were able to prove your identity in
2 the post office, in the bank, and it is issued in the
3 name of your husband, Stipo Alilovic. Why have you
4 shown us his document? Did you too have a document of
5 this kind yourself?
6 A. Yes, I received the same document myself, and
7 I had my account in the bank and he had his. That is
8 customary in the Netherlands.
9 Q. Do you have on you, in addition to the
10 document you have shown us, any other document
11 belonging to your late husband, Stipo Alilovic?
12 A. I have his old Yugoslav passport with which
13 he went to Vienna and then to the Netherlands.
14 Q. Do you have that document on you here today?
15 A. Yes.
16 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, could the usher
17 please show us this document, and I would like
18 Mrs. Krizanac to show this document to us.
19 Q. Mrs. Krizanac, perhaps you know your way and
20 this document better than I. Perhaps you could show us
21 the stamps here.
22 A. I know that there is a stamp there when my
23 husband entered the Netherlands in a locality called
24 Passau, when he was travelling by train. The train was
25 a direct train from Vienna to Amsterdam. Then the
1police entered during the night. He showed his
2 passport -- at least, that is what he told me -- and
3 then they stamped the passport. The place is Passau,
4 and the date is indicated.
5 Q. On page 15 of this document, it says "22nd of
6 April, 1992, Passau." Is that what you are referring
8 A. Yes. The next day, on the 23rd, he was in
10 MR. PAVKOVIC: Could I ask the usher's
11 assistance to show Their Honours this document, and of
12 course counsel for the Prosecution and my colleagues,
13 the Defence counsel.
14 (Trial Chamber confers)
15 MR. TERRIER: Your Honour, could Mr. Pavkovic
16 specify what is to be looked at or looked into in this
17 passport? What are the things worth looking into?
18 Which is the reference that shows that that border was
19 crossed on the 22nd of April?
20 MR. PAVKOVIC: May I answer that question?
21 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes.
22 MR. PAVKOVIC: Actually, Mr. President, I was
23 just commenting on what the witness said. I asked her
24 whether that date indicated on page 15 is the date
25 she's referring to, and she confirmed that. Perhaps
1the witness needs to look at it again. I looked at it
2 in haste. There may be something else there. I don't
3 know if there is anything else confirming what she has
4 just said.
5 MR. TERRIER: (No interpretation)
6 JUDGE MAY: We have French interpretation.
7 JUDGE CASSESE: Apparently there was a wrong
8 channel. Sorry.
9 MR. TERRIER:
10 Q. So there was no stamp. I was saying that on
11 page 15 of this passport, there is no official stamp,
12 there is no official marking by the border police.
13 There is only one ballpoint mention, handwritten, of
14 the 22nd of April, 1992, followed by CPS Passau, BMF.
15 That's all there is.
16 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, but this stamp can be
17 found on the next page, or on the other page, can't
18 it? Can you see "1992"? Isn't that a stamp?
19 MR. TERRIER: On page 14 you can see three
20 stamps, and there, indeed, you can see the date of
21 1992. But I'm in no position of saying what that
22 refers to.
23 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, after the other
24 Defence counsel examine this passport, could we give
25 the passport again to the witness for her to look at
1it, whether we are talking about the same thing?
2 Q. Madam, could you tell me whether your
3 husband, Stipo, in addition to this passport, had any
4 other passports in those days? Or is this the passport
5 you are talking about?
6 A. This is the passport with which he came to
7 Holland and which was handed to the police for aliens
8 when we requested refugee status. The police kept this
9 document. The moment we were granted refugee status,
10 all our documents were returned to us, including this
12 Q. So at the end of May or June '93, you
13 received this passport; in the meantime, it was kept by
14 the police?
15 A. Yes, this document was returned to the owner
16 at the end of June 1993.
17 Q. Thank you. Let me now go on to a few other
18 questions. The Prosecutor asked you about the property
19 that you own, you personally, and the property you had
20 in those days, as well as the property of your
21 husband. You told us here in court that you go there
22 occasionally even now but that you have no problems
23 there, which means you never had any problems with this
24 property either?
25 A. No.
1Q. The Prosecutor showed you a decision relating
2 to the territory of Travnik municipality, and he asked
3 you whether your property, the property we are talking
4 about, was confiscated. Is there any reason why that
5 property should be confiscated?
6 A. No. None at all.
7 Q. You told us here that in this time frame from
8 December '92 until May '93, you received welfare, that
9 you were assisted by your neighbours, and that you also
10 received aid from the Pula catering establishment that
11 you worked in. You said that your husband did not have
12 any job and had no other resources. Were you fully
13 aware of the earnings of your husband?
14 A. Yes, absolutely.
15 Q. The Prosecutor also asked you whether you and
16 your husband had documents showing that on the 15th,
17 16th, and 17th of April, 1993, both of you were in
19 A. I have no documents, but I'm confirming here
20 in court that we were here.
21 Q. My question is: Do you have any documents
22 showing that you were not in Amsterdam?
23 A. No.
24 MR. PAVKOVIC: Thank you. I have no further
25 questions. Thank you, Your Honours.
1JUDGE CASSESE: We have no questions. Mrs.
2 Krizanac, thank you so much for giving evidence in
3 court. You may now be released.
4 Counsel Pavkovic?
5 MR. PAVKOVIC: I apologise, Mr. President. I
6 had intended to suggest something else.
7 I think it would be a good idea if this
8 Chamber were to have in the record these two documents
9 in their original form, that is, the passport and the
10 document of the bank that the witness showed us. We
11 assume that the witness will say that these are dear
12 mementos, so if the Chamber could accept a copy and if
13 the Prosecution has no objection, I would suggest that
14 these documents be photocopied and admitted into
15 evidence as Defence exhibits.
16 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Prosecutor?
17 MR. TERRIER: No objection to this request
18 personally. I would like to put into evidence
19 Prosecutor's Exhibit 358 which we mentioned earlier
21 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I see no
22 objection from the Defence counsel to the tendering
23 into evidence of P358. So I can't see any objection,
24 so all these documents are admitted into evidence, and
25 in particular the photocopies you mentioned. Thank
2 So I will go back to the witness. Madam,
3 thank you so much for giving evidence. You may now be
5 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
6 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, I'm reminded by
7 my colleague that this Prosecutor's Exhibit 358 could
8 be objected to. That is, we would ask that it not be
9 admitted for two reasons; first, because it doesn't
10 apply to the municipality of Vitez but rather to the
11 municipality of Travnik, and, secondly, these documents
12 were issued in '99, and it follows from them that Stipo
13 Alilovic is the owner of certain immovable property,
14 and it is clear that he died in 1995.
15 So these documents are outdated and
16 unreliable, and that is why we object to their
17 admission, at least as far as these documents are
19 JUDGE CASSESE: This document was produced on
20 the 12th of February of '93. I'm relating to the
21 Travnik main document. You said "'99."
22 MR. PAVKOVIC: Yes, but I'm also talking --
23 that document was issued in '93, but it applies to
24 Travnik and not Vitez. These other documents, the
25 property occupancy certificates, were issued in 1999.
1JUDGE CASSESE: I don't understand.
2 MR. PAVKOVIC: I'm not sure whether you have
3 all the documents that we have. Obviously, you don't
4 have all of them. So you only have the decision of the
5 HVO of Travnik municipality?
6 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes.
7 MR. PAVKOVIC: But you don't have all the
8 documents that have been tendered as part of Exhibit
10 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, we have just been handed
11 those documents you were referring to, and, yes, they
12 were produced in 1999. You were right. So could you
13 please repeat your objection to those additional
15 MR. PAVKOVIC: This document entitled
16 "Occupancy Certificate" or, rather, "Property
17 Certificate," was issued in 1999, and it emanates from
18 it that among others, the owner is Stipo Alilovic, son
19 of Pero. So in 1999, reference is made to an owner of
20 whom we know, without any doubt, that he died in 1995.
21 So it's a document that is outdated and doesn't point
22 to the proper conclusions. In other words, the owner
23 is a person who died several years previously, so the
24 document is not reliable, in our view. Of course, it
25 is up to you to assess it. I don't know what purpose
1it can serve.
2 MR. TERRIER: A very short observation, if
3 I'm allowed.
4 I had indeed served these documents to the
5 Defence. They show that Stipo Alilovic and the witness
6 were owners of real estate property in Santici and in
7 the area, in that area of Central Bosnia. This was not
8 challenged by the witness. Therefore, I believe that
9 these documents are not that useful, and of course I
10 shall defer to the Tribunal's decision.
11 They were created on the 20th of April, 1992,
12 and they mentioned property owned by Stipo Alilovic.
13 That doesn't seem much of a problem to me, inasmuch as
14 mention was not made of his death, and the mention
15 relating to the legacy settlement was not communicated
16 to the relevant services in Bosnia. I only attach
17 relative pertinence or relevance to this document
18 because the witness did not challenge that the property
19 was, well, the family's property, and that was the
20 thing that mattered to me.
21 Let us mention another document, the one
22 drafted by the HVO on the 12th of February, 1993, in
23 Travnik. I do not claim that the document was drafted
24 by the Vitez HVO. I presented the document as a
25 document being made in Travnik, and I asked the witness
1whether this rang a bell in the witness's mind. I do
2 not claim anything else, as far as this document is
3 concerned. I submitted it to the witness.
4 The document was drafted in compliance with
5 the then legislation in the Bosnian Croatian community,
6 and as such, it does have some relevance. If that came
7 to be necessary, we would have to prove that a similar
8 document had been drafted for the Vitez municipality or
9 that this document, related to Travnik, also applied to
11 The document is what it is at face value. I
12 do not claim that it is anything else. It was
13 established by the Travnik municipality, it was
14 submitted to the witness, and the witness said that she
15 had never heard of it. That's all.
16 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, if I may be
17 allowed another brief comment.
18 In the first place, I have to say to the
19 Prosecutor that the documents he's referring to, and I
20 am referring to the property documents, do not talk
21 about property, as he says. They talk about
22 ownership. At least those of us belonging to the area
23 know the distinction.
24 As for the other document, I have already
25 said why I felt that it was not relevant as an exhibit
1in this case, because to see whether there is any
2 unified legislation for the whole area of Bosnia, that
3 is another matter. We're talking about Vitez.
4 That is all I would have to say. Thank you.
5 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Counsel
7 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Mr. President, just one
8 sentence linked to this document which was apparently
9 issued by the Travnik HVO. I would like to note that
10 the witness did not recognise that document at all.
11 She didn't recognise it in contents, nor the author,
12 nor the signature. Therefore, she knows nothing about
13 that document. On these grounds, I feel that it cannot
14 be admitted into evidence, and still less can any
15 analogy be made, mentioned by the Prosecutor, that
16 there may have been a similar document in Vitez
18 Therefore, we really do feel that this
19 document cannot be admitted.
20 JUDGE CASSESE: Before ruling on this matter,
21 may I ask two questions of Defence counsel? First of
22 all, you made a distinction between ownership and
23 property. Could you clarify this matter?
24 Secondly, could you clarify why, in the
25 certificates of occupancy, mention is made of Cadastral
1county, Travnik, and then Cadastral municipality,
2 Ahmici? What is the relation between Ahmici and
3 Travnik? Does Ahmici belong to Travnik? Does it come
4 within the purview of Travnik, from the viewpoint of
5 Cadastral matters?
6 Two questions, therefore.
7 MR. PAVKOVIC: First, your question of
9 This document, issued by the Cadastral office
10 and a document that would prove ownership, would have
11 been issued by the competent court or its land
12 registrar where data are kept on ownership and on
13 property, similarly on all the liabilities stemming
14 from that property. So the competent court issues a
15 document on ownership or, rather, its department for
16 land registry, where the books are kept, and they issue
17 the certificates. These lands ownership books are
18 public documents, and everyone is free to access them.
19 At the same time, owners may be possessors
20 and they may not be possessors or owners, especially if
21 the situation is not regular, because someone may sell
22 or give away his property as a gift without that
23 procedure being registered in the appropriate
24 documents, so that in the land registrars you will find
25 the name of one person as the owner, and the use of
1that property may be held by another person. That,
2 unfortunately, is the reality in the areas in which we
3 live, and not only there.
4 As for this document -- oh, there was another
5 question, I'm sorry, the question of the municipality
6 and the municipal court in Vitez. They have the land
7 registers where the property is registered for the
8 municipality of Vitez, and there is a Cadastral
9 department there and, in this connection, also fiscal
10 bodies, and this has nothing to do with property
11 registered somewhere else because that property is
12 registered over there.
13 If I am looking for data about my property, I
14 have to address all those bodies or, rather, courts on
15 whose territory that property is situated. Then I will
16 receive full, complete data about my total property.
17 I'm referring to immovable property, land, forests,
19 To sum up, this document just shows that
20 Stipo Alilovic as well as this witness, in those days,
21 I suppose, and are still now registered as the owners
22 of this immovable property. Whether they actually had
23 the right of use of that property is another matter.
24 We have to look through the land registers in the
25 competent courts to see this. If any decision were to
1be taken on confiscation or seizure, it would have to
2 be based on seizing something from somebody that was
3 the actual owner, and we would have to verify whether
4 they were the real owners.
5 I'm not sure that I have been very clear.
6 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
7 (Trial Chamber deliberates)
8 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. In light of the various
9 explanations given, we have decided to admit these
10 documents into evidence. It will, of course, be for
11 the Court to decide upon the probative value, if any,
12 of these documents. So they are admitted into
14 Again I would like to thank the witness for
15 her patience, and she may now be released.
16 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, but we have not
17 decided yet whether we shall keep the original
18 documents or shall we make a copy of them.
19 JUDGE CASSESE: A copy, because the witness
20 has, of course, the right to keep the original for
21 obvious psychological reasons. Photocopies, yes.
22 MR. PAVKOVIC: Yes, yes, that's what I
23 thought. Thank you.
24 (The witness withdrew)
25 THE REGISTRAR: The Post Bank ID will be C10,
1and Mrs. Krizanac's passport will be C11.
2 MR. TERRIER: Your Honour, for things to be
3 clear, in Prosecutor's Exhibit 358, you have got the
4 four certificates of occupancy and also the HVO
5 decision regarding the Travnik municipality.
6 JUDGE CASSESE: The witness, I think it's
7 Mr. Simovic.
8 THE INTERPRETER: "Did you mention the
9 passport," says the Presiding Judge, turning to the
10 Court Deputy.
11 THE REGISTRAR: The passport of who?
12 JUDGE CASSESE: No, the passport of the
13 husband -- no, for Marie.
14 All right. So shall we bring in
15 Mr. Simovic?
16 (The witness entered court)
17 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning, Mr. Simovic. I
18 would like to ask you to make the solemn declaration.
19 THE WITNESS: Good morning. I solemnly
20 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,
21 and nothing but the truth.
22 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you so much. You may
23 sit down.
24 Counsel Krajina?
25 WITNESS: RADOSLAV SIMOVIC
1MR. KRAJINA: Thank you, Mr. President.
2 Examined by Mr. Krajina:
3 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Simovic.
4 A. Good afternoon.
5 Q. Will you please tell us your name first and
6 your last name, the year of your birth, and what is
7 your place of residence?
8 A. My name is Radoslav Simovic, born on the 29th
9 of November, 1931, born in Citluk, a place in
10 Herzegovina, and I live now in Baska Voda, near
11 Makarska. It is about 50 kilometres from Split, to the
13 Q. Thank you. What are you?
14 A. I own a restaurant/pub. I mean tourism,
15 anything to do with catering, restaurant, hostelry
17 Q. Thank you. You told us you live in Baska
18 Voda. Where is Baska Voda, what state?
19 A. It is in Croatia.
20 Q. I see, in Croatia. How far is Baska Voda
21 from Vitez?
22 A. It is some 200 kilometres from Vitez.
23 Q. And from Split?
24 A. From Split, it is 50 kilometres away.
25 Q. Thank you. I shall slow down, and I shall
1also ask you to slow down for the sake of the
3 A. Yeah, I see. All right.
4 Q. Will you please tell us -- you told us you
5 were in the hostelry business. Do you have a house, a
6 flat? What do you have?
7 A. I have a house. I have a house in Baska
8 Voda; 15 rooms, 40 beds. There are three beds to a
9 room. It is about a hundred metres from the coast.
10 Q. Thank you. When did you go to live in Baska
12 A. I went there before the war. It must have
13 been sometime in '87 or thereabouts when I went to live
15 Q. Thank you. Where did you live before that?
16 A. Before that, I again had a coffee pub at the
17 mouth of the Lasva River into the Bosna River.
18 Q. I see. Thank you. Do you know Vlatko
20 A. I know Vlatko Kupreskic.
21 Q. How well do you know him?
22 A. I know him very well indeed. I know both him
23 and his family, his relative, Ivica.
24 Q. Since when have you known Vlatko?
25 A. Over ten years, must be. I wouldn't know
1exactly, but it must be over ten years. I reckon that
2 is how long I've known him.
3 Q. I see. During all the time that you knew
4 him, on what kind of terms were you? Were you
5 acquaintances or good friends or what?
6 A. Well, we were on very good, friendly terms,
7 particularly with his relative, with his cousin Ivica,
8 with whom we had two outlets on two sides of Zenica.
9 That is where we worked, and we knew one another and
10 visited one another and so on.
11 Q. I see. You said "Ivica." What is his
13 A. Kupreskic, Ivica Kupreskic.
14 Q. Right. Could you tell us if, in 1993 and
15 otherwise before the war, on the eve of the war, if
16 Vlatko came to Croatia, did he drop by to see you or
18 A. Yes. I used to see him when Ivica and
19 Ivica's wife and he came, and Ivica's wife came from
20 some foreign country, I believe it was from Germany,
21 and that is when they came.
22 Q. They came to your place?
23 A. Yes, they came to me, and it was as the sun
24 was setting in Baska Voda.
25 Q. Why did they come?
1A. Well, they came to spend the night there.
2 Q. And did they?
3 A. Yes, they did spend the night there, and they
4 left early in the morning.
5 Q. Right. Will you tell us, do you remember how
6 they came and where did they come from?
7 A. They came from Split.
8 Q. From Split. Did they tell you what business
9 they had in Split? Why did they go to Split?
10 A. Well, they went to meet that woman, Ivica's
11 wife. They went to meet her, and that was already late
12 in the night, and so they came to my place and they
13 spent the night there.
14 Q. Right. Will you tell us -- we have to wait
15 for the interpretation.
16 Do you remember, what means of transport did
17 they use?
18 A. They had a Yugo.
19 Q. What is it, a car?
20 A. Yes, it's a car.
21 Q. Right. Do you remember when it was exactly?
22 A. It was in the evening of the 14th. On the
23 15th in the morning, they left, and the war in Bosnia
24 ensued right away.
25 Q. Good. Tell us then, you told us they arrived
1on the 14th?
2 A. Yes, in the evening.
3 Q. And spent the night?
4 A. And spent the night.
5 Q. When did they leave?
6 A. They left around 6.00 or 7.00 in the morning.
7 Q. Did all three of them leave?
8 A. Yes, all three of them.
9 Q. By that car?
10 A. Yes, by that car.
11 Q. Could you tell us also how is it that it
12 stuck in your memory it was the night between the 14th
13 and the 15th?
14 A. Well, I remembered. I really wanted to
15 know. I had a son who worked in Zenica at the fire
16 brigade, and there was also another one held the coffee
17 pub that I used to run once and he was running now, and
18 therefore I wanted to know what was going on with them.
19 Q. You told us that the next day, the war broke
21 A. Yes, the war broke out. The roads were
22 closed down, and there was no way --
23 Q. And how did you find out?
24 A. Well, I saw it all in the media. Television
25 and radio and all this had them on, and that was that.
1Q. That is why you remember that date?
2 A. Yes, that is why I remember that date very
3 well indeed.
4 Q. Right. Will you tell us also if you saw
5 Vlatko after that?
6 A. Yes, I did see him after that on various
8 Q. How many times, when was that?
9 A. Well, a few years after the war. I don't
10 remember exactly, but he came to see me, as I did see
12 Q. Right. Tell me, when they spent that evening
13 with you, do you remember what the conversation was
15 A. Well, we had a normal conversation, a
16 friendly one. We had our dinner, had a drink or two,
17 and in the morning my wife saw them off to Bosnia, to
19 MR. PAVKOVIC: I see. Right. Thank you.
20 Thank you very much, Mr. Simovic.
21 I have no further questions, Mr. President.
22 Thank you.
23 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you for being so
24 concise, and we can now take a 15-minute break.
25 --- Recess taken at 12.15 a.m.
1--- On resuming at 12.30 p.m.
2 Cross-examination by Mr. Terrier:
3 Q. I shall try and be as brief as Mr. Krajina
4 was. Could you tell us, before the war or since the
5 war, did you have any professional relationship with
6 the accused Vlatko Kupreskic or with his family?
7 A. No, I just knew them. That was all.
8 Q. Witness, as of 1987, you ran a hotel in Baska
9 Voda, and you said that you had some 15 rooms in that
10 hotel; is that so?
11 A. (No translation)
12 Q. What were the patrons, the customers, in
13 late '92, early '93? What kind of people would come
14 and put up at your hotel?
15 A. Well, anyone could come to my hotel. The
16 peak season was from the 1st of June until the 30th of
17 September. After that, it would be cold; winter would
19 Q. As a hotel owner, didn't you have to keep a
20 book in which you mentioned everybody staying for the
21 night in your hotel?
22 A. Yes, but earlier on, I used to work with
23 companies, with firms. I would rent them rooms, and
24 they would keep track of the names of the guests and
25 how long they stayed, for their employees.
1Q. I'm sorry, my question was as follows: You,
2 as a hotel owner, you had, didn't you, you had the
3 obligation, for the police or revenue purposes, you had
4 to keep a register, a book, in which you mentioned the
5 names of every guest? Wasn't that one of your
7 A. Off season.
8 Q. Could you be more specific? Did you have
9 such obligations during the season, or off season, or
10 what was the situation?
11 A. Off season.
12 Q. In other words, you are telling us that when
13 it wasn't high season or shoulder, you didn't have to
14 keep a book, a log, whilst you had such obligations
15 when it was the season?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Therefore, you mentioned the fact that Vlatko
18 Kupreskic, Ivica Kupreskic, and Vlatko's wife were at
19 the hotel nowhere, in no document whatsoever?
20 A. I have no written document, because other
21 people who would stay as friends would never fill in
22 any forms.
23 Q. Do you remember if Vlatko Kupreskic was put
24 up only once, or several times, in your hotel?
25 A. Several times.
1Q. So he visited you several times, did he?
2 A. (No interpretation)
3 Q. Could you tell us more specifically when he
4 came, and whether he was always together with Ivica
5 Kupreskic, and how frequent their visits were?
6 A. They usually occurred in the off-season
7 months. They would travel on business, and how do I
8 know what are the reasons he had to travel? And he
9 would drop by.
10 Q. Let us mention the first months of 1993. Do
11 you remember whether Vlatko Kupreskic visited you on
12 several occasions in those first months of 1993, and if
13 there were such visits, how frequent they were?
14 A. No, just the last time he came, on the 14th,
15 when the war was on in Bosnia, he visited me, and he
16 spent the night with Ivica and Ivica's wife as well.
17 Q. So he was there on the 14th of April; when
18 else did he visit you?
19 A. I cannot remember him coming at all in that
21 Q. Witness, I'd like us to understand each other
22 properly. You said just a moment ago that Vlatko
23 Kupreskic visited you several times. When, exactly,
24 did he visit you? Could you be more specific? If you
25 can't remember, well, let us know, equally.
1A. He always came in the off-season months, that
2 is, during the winter and the like.
3 Q. Here is my ensuing question: In the winter
4 following April 1993, did Vlatko Kupreskic visit you?
5 Did he do so on several occasions? How frequent were
6 the visits? Was he together with Ivica Kupreskic, or
7 would he travel alone?
8 A. I don't remember at all. All I remember is
9 this one time that he came, and that was on the 14th
10 and the 15th, when Ivica and his wife were with him. I
11 can't remember whether he came again in the course of
12 that year or not.
13 Q. So let's make things clear, because I have
14 the feeling that your answers to my question are
15 somewhat vague. You perfectly remember Vlatko's,
16 Ivica's, and Ivica's wife's visit on the 14th of April,
17 1993. You remember that visit perfectly well.
18 However, you have no memory whatsoever of other visits
19 they may have made to you?
20 A. I don't remember any other visit. I didn't
21 take note of it, nor did I record it anywhere, because
22 I have an apartment there, I have my family, and they
23 would come to visit, but not during the season. During
24 the season, a record is kept of people who come.
25 Q. Do you know that Vlatko Kupreskic would go
1rather frequently to Croatia?
2 A. I don't know. I can't remember. I don't
3 know that he came often. He may have gone somewhere
4 else, but he didn't come to see me. How could I know?
5 Q. Would you know where he might have gone if he
6 wasn't going to visit you?
7 A. I couldn't know. I couldn't say. I don't
8 know who else he had.
9 Q. Witness, since you have only very dim
10 memories of the period before April '93, since you kept
11 no written trace or track of your visitors in the
12 off-season period, how can you be so sure when it comes
13 to the date of the 14th or 15th of April 1993?
14 A. I can remember because there was a war in
15 Bosnia, and it was not possible to travel. I had two
16 sons in Bosnia, one in Zenica, one in Lasva, some 15
17 kilometres away, where there was a coffee bar, and I
18 was interested because of my children more than
19 anything else.
20 Q. Do you remember whether Ivica Kupreskic
21 mentioned to you the state of war that was prevailing
22 in Central Bosnia at the time? Well, it might have
23 been Ivica or Vlatko Kupreskic.
24 A. I can't remember them telling me anything.
25 Q. You told us that they travelled in a Yugo 45
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Was there anything striking or unusual about
4 that car that you would have noticed?
5 A. I really can't remember. It was an ordinary
7 Q. Did you notice whether it was a fully-loaded
8 or heavily-loaded car?
9 A. I couldn't remember that. My apartment is on
10 the fourth floor of the building, and I didn't even go
11 down. They came upstairs, they parked the car in the
12 garage, and that's all.
13 Q. Did they use a telephone from your hotel?
14 Did they phone to Bosnia?
15 A. I'm not sure whether I had a telephone in the
16 house at the time. I can't remember.
17 Q. Do you remember whether you had a chat with
19 A. Yes, we talked normally, just like any other
21 Q. Would you remember what you talked about?
22 A. I don't remember. Just like one would talk
23 to people one knew, we sat together, had dinner, talked
24 about everything. Nothing in particular, nothing
25 specific. We just chatted like comrades.
1Q. You said earlier on, but could you say it
2 again, because I'm not sure I understood very well:
3 You told us that you then had a son, and that he ran a
4 restaurant in Zenica; is that so?
5 A. Yes. Close to Zenica, on the road outside
7 Q. You also stated that you kept in touch with
8 your son in Zenica?
9 A. No. I couldn't when the war started. Before
10 that, I was in touch with him, of course, because I
11 helped him to run the facility.
12 Q. This will be my last question, witness. So
13 given the dates when Vlatko, Ivica Kupreskic were put
14 up at your hotel, had the war already started then or
16 A. No.
17 Q. As far as you can remember, when after that
18 date did the war start?
19 A. That same day, the next day, officially.
20 Q. And how did you hear of this?
21 A. I learned it from the television reports.
22 Ivica wouldn't have brought his wife from another
23 country if he knew that there was a war. He brought
24 her as if it were normal, as if there was no war. How
25 do I know what happened afterwards?
1MR. TERRIER: I have no further questions.
2 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
3 Mr. Krajina?
4 MR. KRAJINA: Thank you, Mr. President.
5 Re-examined by Mr. Krajina:
6 Q. Let us just clarify one point. My learned
7 friend, the Prosecutor, used on several occasions the
8 word "hotel" as if it was a real hotel -- just a
9 moment, please, just a moment. Hear me out.
10 The Prosecutor spoke about a hotel. My
11 question is, do you own a hotel -- you know what a
12 hotel is -- or do you own a house in which you rent
13 rooms for tourists?
14 A. A house.
15 Q. Is that a hotel?
16 A. No. It's not a hotel, but it is quite big.
17 There are 15 rooms.
18 Q. Does it say "Hotel" on it?
19 A. No. It's considered private accommodation.
20 MR. KRAJINA: Thank you. I have no further
22 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
23 We have no questions. Mr. Simovic, thank you
24 so much for coming.
25 I assume there is no objection to the witness
1being released, so therefore the witness may now be
2 released. Thank you.
3 (The witness withdrew)
4 JUDGE CASSESE: We may move on to our next
6 (The witness entered court)
7 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning,
8 Mrs. Kupreskic. Will you please make the solemn
10 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
11 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
13 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be
15 Counsel Par?
16 WITNESS: LJUBICA KUPRESKIC
17 Examined by Mr. Par:
18 Q. Good afternoon, Mrs. Kupreskic.
19 A. Good afternoon.
20 Q. Will you first of all introduce yourself,
21 tell the Court your name, when and where you were born,
22 and your occupation.
23 A. My name is Ljubica Kupreskic. I am the wife
24 of the unfairly accused Vlatko Kupreskic. I was born
25 on the 5th of April, 1962, in a place called Jardol,
2 Q. How long have you been married to Vlatko?
3 A. With the innocently accused Vlatko Kupreskic,
4 I have been since 1982.
5 Q. Will you please not repeat this phrase,
6 "innocently accused." Just answer the questions
8 How many children do you have?
9 A. We have two children, a 16-year-old daughter
10 and a son of 12.
11 Q. Could you tell us how long you have been
12 living in Pirici?
13 A. I have been living in Pirici since I joined
14 the Kupreskic family, that is, in 1982, and I am still
15 living there to this day.
16 Q. Could you tell us who owns this house? Is it
17 Vlatko's house or his father's house?
18 A. Both the old and the new house is in Vlatko's
19 father's name, because when we built the new house, all
20 of us together moved into the new house, from the old
21 house into the new house.
22 Q. On the 16th of April, 1993, who was living in
23 that house?
24 A. Vlatko's parents, I, Vlatko, and our two
1Q. So you lived in an enlarged family with
2 Vlatko's parents, or did you have two separate
4 A. We lived together with Vlatko's parents. It
5 was a single household.
6 Q. Would you please give us the names of your
7 nearest neighbours, first the Croats and then the
9 A. My nearest neighbours, Croats, are Mirko
10 Vidovic, Gordana and Milko Vidovic, Stipan Vidovic,
11 Ivica Kupreskic, Zoran Kupreskic, Anto Kupreskic,
12 Mirjan Kupreskic, Ivo Kupreskic. My nearest Muslim
13 neighbours are Sakib Ahmic, Sukrija Ahmic, Ramiz
14 Gradinovic, Sabahudin Muratovic, Ismail Pezer, Sulejman
16 Q. I should now like us to focus on the period
17 from 1992 until the conflict of the 16th of April '93.
18 So could you please tell us, in that period, '92/93,
19 what was Vlatko doing?
20 A. In the period from '92 to '93, Vlatko was in
21 trade. He worked in the private company Sutre,
22 together with his cousin, Ivica Kupreskic.
23 Q. In that period, did Vlatko engage in any
24 political activities? What I mean is, did he become a
25 member of any political party? Was he politically
1active? Did he speak in public or was he politically
2 committed in any way?
3 A. Vlatko never -- was never politically
4 active. He was never a member of any party.
5 Q. In that same period, '92/93, did anything
6 change in terms of his attitude towards the Muslims who
7 were your neighbours and customers?
8 A. Vlatko's attitude never changed in relation
9 to anyone, either the Muslims or the Serbs, his
10 customers or his neighbours. His attitude was always
11 the same. It was a correct attitude. He never
12 distinguished people by their nationality but by their
13 qualities, whether they were good or bad people.
14 Q. Tell us, was Vlatko mobilised in that period?
15 A. No, he was not mobilised.
16 Q. Was there any reason for that? Had he served
17 in the army?
18 A. Vlatko did not serve in the former Yugoslavia
19 army because he is a heart patient. He is 100 per cent
20 disabled, and for that, he was released from the duty
21 of serving in the army.
22 Q. Talking about this disease, do you know what
23 kind of ailment he has? And my additional question
24 would be: Could you tell us how this disease manifests
25 itself in everyday life?
1A. The heart trouble that Vlatko has is
2 manifested in such a way that he gets tired quickly,
3 that his palms perspire. He is not resilient to
4 physical effort.
5 Q. Do you know the diagnosis?
6 A. I don't know, but I know the symptoms because
7 I've been living with him, and I know them very well.
8 Q. Thank you. Do you know whether Vlatko in
9 those days, '92/93, participated in the village guards?
10 A. No, Vlatko never participated in village
12 Q. In that period, did Vlatko have any kind of
14 A. No, Vlatko did not have a weapon in that
16 Q. I should now like to ask you, for us, to
17 focus on the 14th, 15th, and 16th of March 1993, that
18 is, prior to the conflict in Ahmici. Do you recall
19 what Vlatko was doing on the 14th and 15th of April
20 1993, that is, two days prior to the conflict in
22 A. Yes, I do remember.
23 Q. Could you tell us, please, in brief?
24 A. Yes. On the 14th of April, 1993, Vlatko went
25 on a business trip together with Ivica Kupreskic to
2 Q. In view of the fact that we have had occasion
3 to hear quite a bit about this trip, I will only ask
4 you a couple of questions specifically related to that
5 business trip.
6 Do you know when Vlatko left on this trip?
7 A. Yes, I do know exactly. He left on the 14th
8 of April, early in the morning.
9 Q. Didn't he leave on the 13th? Could it be the
10 13th, because Vlatko said so on one occasion? Will you
11 please think about that?
12 A. He did not leave on the 13th, because on the
13 official order, there is the date of the 13th, and it
14 was usually the date on the eve of anybody's business
15 trip. That was the order for the business trip that
16 was issued by the municipality. It was always the
17 previous date to the date of the travel.
18 Q. How can you be so sure it was the 14th?
19 A. I can be sure because I know that Ivica
20 Kupreskic's wife was coming back from Germany and that
21 the plane was to land down in Split around 1.00, and
22 that is how I remember.
23 Q. We are still on that business trip. With
24 whom did Vlatko go off, and what means of
25 transportation did he take?
1A. Vlatko set off with Ivica Kupreskic, who was
2 the manager of the Sutre company, and they took the
3 car, the Yugo 45.
4 Q. Could you tell us, when did he come back?
5 A. He returned from the business trip on the
6 15th of April, '93, around 7.00.
7 Q. And who came back with him?
8 A. Ivica Kupreskic and his wife, Ankica
9 Kupreskic, came back with him.
10 Q. Do you know if Vlatko brought some
11 merchandise with him?
12 A. Yes, I know that he did bring some
13 merchandise with him.
14 Q. Could you tell us what?
15 A. It was fabrics or, rather, clothes. There
16 were jeans, children's jeans, and underwear.
17 Q. Do you know what one was supposed to do with
18 that merchandise?
19 A. Yes, I do know what one was supposed to do
20 with that merchandise. Part of this had been ordered
21 for Travnik for Mr. Nevzudin Filipovic.
22 Q. Will you please tell us, how is it that you
23 know that?
24 A. Vlatko told me that Nevzudin had ordered some
25 merchandise from him.
1Q. Will you tell us who Nevzudin Filipovic is?
2 A. Nevzudin Filipovic married Vlatko's sister,
3 so he is our brother-in-law.
4 Q. Did they have a shop or what?
5 A. Yes, they had a shop in Travnik. It was
6 called Private Company Lasva.
7 Q. Right. We're finished with this business
8 trip now.
9 Will you please tell us, what did you
10 personally do that day, the 15th of April, the day
11 before the conflict at Ahmici?
12 A. On the 15th of April, '93, I was taking my
13 driving test with the automotive society in Vitez, and
14 it was at 16.00, that is, at 4.00 in the afternoon.
15 Q. You're saying that you took your driving
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. So when you came back from the test, when was
20 A. I came home around 6.00 in the afternoon.
21 Q. On the 15th of April?
22 A. On the 15th of April.
23 Q. Then did you, around your house or around the
24 shop, did you see anything out of the ordinary? Did
25 you see any soldiers? Did perhaps some soldiers come
1or something that was out of the ordinary? Did you see
3 A. I did not see anything out of the ordinary.
4 It was like any other day. I know that that day my
5 daughter went to school there in Ahmici. All the
6 children were at school. There was nothing unusual.
7 It was like all the previous days.
8 Q. Did any member of your family tell you
9 perhaps that that day soldiers appeared in the house or
10 in the shop?
11 A. No, nobody told me. If anything like that
12 had happened, they would have presumably told me.
13 Q. The night between the 15th and the 16th of
14 April, was that a quiet night? Rather, my question is
15 how did you pass that night at home and who was at home
16 that night?
17 A. Well, that night was quiet, like any other
18 night, and we were there. So Vlatko's parents, Vlatko,
19 myself and our children were in the house.
20 Q. Some witnesses testified that that night, the
21 lights were switched on at your house during the
22 night. Could you tell us something about that?
23 A. I don't know that anybody switched on the
24 lights that night. Children may have got up.
25 Q. But was there any reason? Did somebody move
1around, switching on the lights?
2 A. Well, I myself did not get up and did not
3 switch on the lights. I know nothing about that.
4 Q. Right. We've now moved on to the 16th of
5 April, '93.
6 Mrs. Kupreskic, could you tell us what woke
7 you up on the 16th of April, '93?
8 A. On the 16th of April, '93, I was woken up by
9 a telephone call.
10 Q. Will you please tell us, as of that telephone
11 call, what happened then?
12 A. Well, the telephone rang, and I got up and
13 answered. It was a male voice which told me to go to
14 the shelter. But I did not take it seriously, I
15 thought it was a provocation, and then I went back to
17 THE INTERPRETER: Right. We could not hear
18 what the counsel said to the witness.
19 A. So the telephone rang again, and a male voice
20 once again saying, "What are you waiting for? Why
21 don't you go to the shelter?" I asked, "Who is it,"
22 but he would not introduce himself.
23 Then I called Vlatko. Vlatko answered the
24 phone, but then he also went back to bed together with
25 me, and he said, "Oh, forget it. It's a provocation."
1Then less than 15 minutes or so later, the
2 telephone rang once again, and I told Vlatko to get up
3 and answer it, but he refused to. But since the
4 telephone went on ringing, I got up, and there was
5 Ivica Kupreskic on the phone. He said, "What are you
6 waiting for? Why don't you go to the shelter?
7 Everybody else has gone."
8 He wanted to speak to Vlatko, and Vlatko came
9 to the telephone. Then they talked, and as they were
10 talking, I woke up the children and Vlatko's parents.
11 We hurriedly got ready and set off to the shelter.
12 When we came out, I locked the door of the passage and
13 I locked the entrance door.
14 So we hurried to the shelter, passing by
15 Ivica Kupreskic's house. We went down through the
16 woods, reached Niko Sakic's house, and I saw Nika
17 Sakic. He was standing in his yard, saying that we
18 should move on because his house was full. Across Niko
19 Sakic's house I saw Dragan Samija.
20 So we moved on. Some five or six hundred
21 metres down the road, I saw Mr. Milan Samija and his
22 wife, Mara. They were feeding sheep.
23 When we reached the playground, I could
24 already hear shots being fired in Ahmici, and then we
25 hurried to the shelter to save ourselves.
1When we reached the shelter, I found in front
2 of it Anto Kupreskic, Marko Santic, Alojzije Vidovic
3 and Ivo Vidovic. When we entered the shelter, the
4 shelter was full of children, women, elderly persons,
6 Q. We did not hear quite well. Which members of
7 the household went to the shelter?
8 A. Well, it was Vlatko, myself, our children,
9 Vlatko's mother. But Vlatko's father stayed behind in
10 the house because he was ill. He had a surgical
11 intervention on his hip, and he needed to use sticks to
12 walk, so he couldn't move and he stayed behind. So
13 everybody else left, except that Vlatko Kupreskic's
14 father stayed.
15 Q. So will you please tell us what time was it
16 when you left the house, as far as you can remember?
17 A. I believe it could have been somewhere around
18 half past 5.00 and 6.00. It is difficult to be
19 accurate, but it could have been about that time.
20 Q. But roughly speaking, it was before the
21 firing began?
22 A. We left before the fire began, but we had
23 reached the playgrounds, and I remember it perfectly.
24 I could show it immediately, when I heard the first
25 shots in Ahmici. I could really show that.
1Q. Some witnesses affirm that that morning,
2 around half past 6.00, that they saw Vlatko wearing a
3 blue coat, passing by the house of Suhrija Ahmic.
4 Could you comment on this and tell us if that is true?
5 A. That is not true, because Vlatko was with me
6 all the time, and I am dead certain about that. And
7 besides, it was so cold for two days before that -- it
8 rained for two days before that, so I mean -- but my
9 husband has never had a blue, light coat, and that is
10 true. That I know.
11 Q. Right. Now we've got to the shelter.
12 Please, did Vlatko stay with you in the
14 A. Vlatko stayed there in the shelter until
15 about 10.00.
16 Q. What did he do at 10.00, where did he go?
17 A. Around 10.00, Vlatko left the shelter, went
18 to see his father, because the fire had somewhat abated
19 and we were all worried about Vlatko's father.
20 Q. So it was around 10.00?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. When did he come back?
23 A. He returned sometime in the afternoon. It
24 could have been around 4.00. I know it was lunchtime.
25 I know we were all hungry.
1Q. When he came back, what did he tell you,
2 where had he been and what had he seen?
3 A. He told me he had been home, that he had seen
4 his father frightened, that the house was full of
5 soldiers, that fire was open from the house, that our
6 house had been looted, that the entrance door had been
7 broken down.
8 Q. Tell me, after he returned to the shelter,
9 did he go out again, did he leave the shelter again?
10 A. Yes. Since he could not bring his dad
11 because the fires had started again, sometime as the
12 sun was setting or after sunset, he went back to see
13 his father around 8.00.
14 Q. Then he returned to the shelter?
15 A. He returned to the shelter.
16 Q. How long did you stay in that shelter?
17 A. In that shelter, we stayed until the next
18 day, that is, until the 17th of April, it was Saturday,
19 until the evening hours, around 8.00, we all left the
20 shelter because all the houses around were aflame, so
21 we left the shelter. In a column, we panicked and set
22 out for Donja Rovna.
23 Q. And was Vlatko with you all the time and did
24 he also set off to Donja Rovna?
25 A. Yes, Vlatko was with us all the time, and he
1went with us to Donja Rovna.
2 Q. So after that period of time of the 16th of
3 April, could you tell us what did Vlatko do or, rather,
4 where was he?
5 A. We spent a fortnight or so in Donja Rovna.
6 There were very many of us. We were sleeping on the
7 floor, and since there were no living conditions, then
8 we moved to Vitez.
9 But Vlatko was there all the time. However,
10 he did go to Vitez now and then because we had
11 absolutely no food supplies there in Donja Rovna, and
12 Vlatko would go and bring us some foodstuffs.
13 Q. And where was Vlatko's father, Franjo, during
14 that time?
15 A. Vlatko's father, Franjo, was with us.
16 Q. Did Franjo Kupreskic, Vlatko's father, tell
17 you what had happened on the day, on the 16th of April,
18 in your house while he was in it?
19 A. Yes, he did tell me about that.
20 Q. Could you recount briefly what he told you?
21 A. He said that when we left, he stayed behind,
22 he locked the door, and went back to bed. So he went
23 back to bed, and then he heard the fire, and he got up
24 and went to the bathroom. As he stood in the bathroom,
25 he heard a knocking, banging, on the first floor of the
1house. He didn't know what was going on, but the fire
2 had already been opened. As he was in the bathroom,
3 there was a powerful bang, so that panes burst, and he
4 came out of the bathroom and was standing in the
5 passage and was thinking what to do, whether to stay in
6 the house or go out. He was afraid.
7 But then he went out of the house and he saw
8 three camouflaged soldiers, and they told him, "Hands
9 up." They asked him, "Who might you be?" and he said,
10 "I'm Franjo." "Which Franjo," he said. "Do you have
11 any identity documents?" He said, "Yes, I do, but they
12 are in my coat in the passage, my identity card."
13 "Show it to us." So he showed it to them, and they
14 left him alone. He asked, "What's going on?" and they
15 told him, "Don't ask."
16 Then he went back to the ground floor, where
17 he stayed for a while, and when the fire seemed to calm
18 down, he went to the first floor to see what was going
19 on there. There he saw that the door had been broken
20 out and there was a beam which had fallen down, and the
21 soil from flower pots was all around.
22 They were looking for money. They asked him,
23 "Where is the money?" He told them, "As far as I
24 know, all the money we had we invested in the building
25 of the warehouse," because that was what we were
1building in Pirici, that warehouse. "I don't know.
2 There is no money." "Oh, come on. Such a
3 well-appointed house and yet no money?" "I know
4 nothing about that. I don't know where the money is."
5 So he saw them take out all the clothes from
6 the wardrobe, and he also saw them, as they climbed to
7 the loft, that they took the synthesiser which belonged
8 to my son Igor. He asked them to leave it behind, but
9 of course he had no say in the matter. That is how it
11 I remember that he also told me, as he was
12 standing in front of the house, how our neighbour Cazim
13 Ahmici was passing by, and he asked him to give him an
14 axe. "I dared not give him the axe [realtime error
15 corrected]. I could not decide about that. I had to
16 ask those uniformed men if I could do it. So I went to
17 the shed, I took the axe, and I went back to the house,
18 took a blanket, and I gave them to my neighbour Cazim
19 to help him."
20 MR. PAR: Excuse me. I just read in the
21 transcript -- something is wrong in the transcript, so
22 it is not quite clear.
23 Q. What did Franjo Kupreskic give Cazim Ahmic?
24 What did the former ask him or what did he give him?
25 A. Cazim Ahmic asked Vlatko's father to help
1him. He asked for an axe and for a blanket. He wanted
2 to make something. I don't know, some makeshift
3 stretcher or something of the sort.
4 JUDGE CASSESE: Could you make a correction
5 in the transcript? It's not "eggs," it's "axe."
6 MR. PAR: "Axe," a-x-e.
7 A. An axe to make a kind of a stretcher for his
8 wife, who had been wounded.
9 MR. PAR:
10 Q. For his wounded wife, he asked for an axe,
11 and then he had to ask for the permission from the
12 soldiers. Have we clarified this? So to make a
13 stretcher for his wounded wife?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. He asked for the permission from the
17 A. He asked them if he -- "May I give it to
18 him," because of course he could not do it on his own,
19 and they said they could do it but that she was done
20 and over with.
21 Q. Do you remember anything else? What did
22 Franjo Kupreskic tell you, something else too, or was
23 that more or less it?
24 A. (No audible response)
25 THE INTERPRETER: The witness did not say
2 Q. Is Franjo Kupreskic alive?
3 A. Vlatko's father died in September '95.
4 Q. Will you now please answer a series of some
5 different questions?
6 First, could you please tell us, on what kind
7 of terms were you with the Pezer family before the 16th
8 of April, '93?
9 A. We were on good terms. That is, there was
10 mutual respect. We looked after one another, we helped
11 one another. There was never any trouble.
12 Q. Could you tell us, who is Nevzudin Pezer?
13 A. Yes. Nevzudin Pezer, Pedja, is Ismail
14 Pezer's son, and his mother was Fata.
15 Q. After the 16th of April, '93, did you see
16 Nevzudin Pezer, the son of Ismail and Fata Pezer?
17 A. Yes, I did see him after the 16th of April,
18 '94. I did see Nevzudin Pezer.
19 Q. Will you please describe that meeting
20 briefly? That is, tell us where it was, when, who was
21 present at the time, and the kind of conversation that
22 you heard.
23 A. It was in a warehouse in our shop in Pirici.
24 As far as I can remember, it was sometime in late
25 1994. Nevzudin Pezer turned up one morning in a van
1driven by Amir Jusic, and Mirhad Salibasic, called
2 Djule, was also with him.
3 Q. Will you tell us, these two individuals whom
4 you mentioned, are they Croats or Muslims?
5 A. These two persons are Muslims.
6 Q. Yes. Go on, please.
7 A. In the store, Mr. Haris Vehabovic was
8 waiting. He often bought deep-frozen food from us, as
9 he himself was a butcher and had his shop in Zenica,
10 and they often came to us to purchase the foodstuffs.
11 So that in the store there were our worker's brother,
12 not a girl, Vlatko, myself, our children, and these
13 persons who arrived in a van.
14 Q. What did you talk about? What kind of a
15 meeting was that? Was it the first time that you saw
16 Nevzudin after the war?
17 A. Well, we greeted one another in a friendly
18 way, and Nevzudin put his arm around Vlatko's shoulders
19 as if to hug him. It was a cordial meeting. For the
20 first time after the conflict, after that tragedy with
21 a mat (phoen), we talked about everything.
22 I specifically asked if his people were all
23 right, because there was rumour that they had been
24 killed, that is, his wife and his children. But he
25 told us that they had managed to escape and that they
1were accommodated somewhere in Cajdras in Zenica. From
2 him, I heard that his sister had been wounded, and I
3 already knew that his mother had been killed, because
4 my neighbour, Stipan, had told me that he had seen Fata
5 Pezer's body.
6 I remembered that story, because he told me
7 that he had been told by somebody, and I don't remember
8 who, that a man had put on women's clothes, Muslim
9 clothes, that is, the pantaloons, and he was curious.
10 He wanted to know who that was. When he got there, he
11 saw that it was Fata Pezer's body.
12 Q. During that conversation, was there any
13 mention of how Fata Pezer was killed? Was there any
14 mention of that at all? Did you ask him, "Did you have
15 any losses?"
16 A. Well, he said, "My mother was killed and my
17 sister is wounded."
18 Q. Will you tell us, please, if you knew at that
19 time that Vlatko had been accused of participating in
20 the killing of Fata, Nevzudin's mother?
21 A. I could not know that because it's -- I mean
22 something like that would have never occurred to me. I
23 wouldn't think it possible to have Vlatko accused of
24 killing Nevzudin's mother.
25 Q. But did Nevzudin Pezer know at that time that
1Vlatko was being charged with the killing of his
3 A. Well, had he known, he wouldn't have come to
4 see us. That is not true. I mean, he couldn't have
5 known. He must have spoken to his relatives, to his
6 friends, about what had happened that morning, because
7 he told us then that he had not been there in the
8 house, that he had been in Mahala, in the old part of
9 Vitez, because he was a military policeman. And that
10 morning, he also turned up in a military uniform.
11 Q. Could you tell us, on what kind of terms were
12 you with Sakib Ahmic?
13 A. I'm sorry, may I just add something about
14 Nevzudin because I didn't finish it. So we talked
15 about everything, and when Nevzudin was about to leave,
16 I packed some presents for his children, some sweets,
17 and some cigarettes for him, because they told us they
18 were in very dire straits, that they had no income
19 whatsoever. I also asked if Sabahudin Muratovic's
20 children were alive. I asked him because they used to
21 play with my children, and he told me, "Yes, they were
22 alive," and I also packed some presents for them. That
23 is what I wanted to add about Nevzudin Pezer.
24 Q. My next question is: On what terms were you
25 with the family of Sakib Ahmic?
1A. With Sakib Ahmic, and with all our
2 neighbours, Sakib Ahmic and whoever his land bordered
3 on were on bad terms with him, regardless of whether
4 they were Muslims or Croats, but relations with his
5 children were normal and good.
6 Q. After the 16th of April, did you see Sakib or
7 his granddaughter Enisa?
8 A. No, I never saw his granddaughter Enisa. As
9 for Sakib, I remember seeing him once in Ahmici in a
10 column of people. There was a visit organised. As for
11 his granddaughter, I don't think I could recognise
12 her. She was a year or two older than my daughter.
13 She probably has changed, so I couldn't recognise her.
14 MR. PAR: Your Honours, I will be through
15 with one section of this testimony in a couple of
16 minutes, if I may be allowed to overstep the time for a
17 few minutes.
18 Q. Did you hear that Enisa came to Ahmici to
19 take a video recording of her house?
20 A. No, I hadn't heard about it.
21 Q. Did Vlatko tell you that he saw her or that
22 he spoke to her?
23 A. No, Vlatko didn't tell me. Probably if it
24 was true he would have told me. I don't believe it.
25 Q. Could you tell me what your relations were
1with Rasim Gradinovic?
2 A. With Rasim Gradinovic, we were on good
3 terms. He often worked as a manual labourer for us,
4 particularly in 1992, while we were building the
5 warehouse in Pirici.
6 Q. Could you tell us what his health was like?
7 A. Rasim Gradinovic is a sick man. I know that
8 he took a swim in the Lasva River, as a result of which
9 he had a kind of stroke and became psychologically
10 unstable. I know that he worked in a socially-owned
11 enterprise belonging to Travnik municipality. He was a
12 driver of a lorry. But since that stroke, he was on
13 sick leave most of the time, and he was unfit for
14 work. I also know that he married several times, that
15 he liked to have a drink or two.
16 I also remember that when we completed work
17 on the building in Pirici, we prepared a celebration.
18 There was a large percentage of Muslims, and I remember
19 in particular when Ramiz's (sic) wife came to take him
20 home after midnight. He was so drunk that she had to
21 drag him along the ground.
22 Q. My left question for today: Do you know
23 Cizmo Senija and her husband?
24 A. No, I've never heard of her.
25 MR. PAR: Mr. President, I should like to end
1the examination for today. I have some documents to
2 show the witness which I would like to do tomorrow.
3 Thank you, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. We'll adjourn now
5 until tomorrow at 9.00.
6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
7 at 1.33 p.m., to be reconvened
8 on Wednesday, the 26th day of
9 May, 1999, at 9.00 a.m.