1 Monday, 5th July 1999
2 (Open session)
3 (The accused entered court)
4 (The witness entered court)
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-95-16-T,
7 the Prosecutor versus Zoran Kupreskic, Mirjan
8 Kupreskic, Vlatko Kupreskic, Drago Josipovic,
9 Dragan Papic and Vladimir Santic.
10 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Good morning. I
11 gather we start with a character witness for
12 Mr. Josipovic. Mrs. Milica Vukadinovic, could you
13 please stand and make the solemn declaration?
14 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
15 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
17 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Counsel Susak.
18 MR. SUSAK: Thank you, Mr. President. I
19 should also like to inform you that I have given up
20 Slavica Cickovic who was the second character witness,
21 because I went along with the advice of the Chamber.
22 The statement -- the testimonies of these two witnesses
23 would overlap, in fact, and I decided that this one
24 witness would be enough.
25 WITNESS: MILICA VUKADINOVIC
1Examined by Mr. Susak:
2 Q. Good morning, Mrs. Vukadinovic.
3 A. Good morning.
4 Q. Could you please tell the court your name,
5 where do you work, who do you live with, where do you
7 A. I'm Milica Vukadinovic. I live with my three
8 children, underage. At present I work for Herzegovina
9 Osiguranje, which is an insurance company in Vitez.
10 Q. Before you got that job where did you work
11 before that? Will you please list all the jobs that
12 you held as of 1991?
13 A. Since 1983 I worked for Sintevit, socially
14 owned company until '92. In '92 I went to work for the
15 police station in Vitez and I was there until '94. In
16 1994 I was appointed the holder of the health centre in
17 Vitez. Then in 1994, to this day, I've been working as
18 the head of the subsidiary of Herzegovina Osiguranje,
19 which is Herzegovina insurance.
20 Q. You worked for this Sintevit company in
21 Vitez. Was Drago Josipovic also working there?
22 A. Yes, Drago Josipovic worked for the same
23 company, Sintevit. He worked there at the same time as
24 I did or, rather, he worked there before me.
25 Q. Do you know Drago Josipovic only from work or
1have you socialised outside work?
2 A. I know Drago Josipovic both from work and
4 Q. Could you tell us what was his attitude
5 toward work at the Sintevit?
6 A. His attitude to work, he was an exemplary
7 worker. He always performed all his duties in an
8 exemplary manner.
9 Q. In other words, he did --
10 A. he was very industrious, never any
11 disciplinary sanctions were taken against him. He was
12 always regularly at his job, attended his workplace
14 Q. So he was an exemplary worker?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Were both Muslims and Croats employed by the
18 A. Yes. In our company there were about 300
19 people employed. There were Muslims and Croats and
20 Serbs. On the average, about 80 per cent --
21 Q. Will you please slow down because of the
23 A. On the average, about 80 per cent were
25 Q. And you mean about 20 per cent Croats and
1Serbs, is that so?
2 A. Croats and Serbs, yes.
3 Q. Will you tell us was Drago Josipovic involved
4 in some other activities but work?
5 A. Well, he was a trade unionist. He was
6 appointed there. He was a member of the commission for
7 labour relations, and he was also a member of the
8 Workers' Council. Those were the self-managment bodies
9 under the then system.
10 Q. Was he also the chairman of the executive
11 board of the union?
12 A. Yes, he was also the vice-chairman and the
13 chairman. Subsequently there was also the action
14 conference which covered three enterprises and he was
15 also a member of the action conference.
16 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, may I ask the
17 usher to show this document to the witness, please?
18 Q. This is a certificate. Is it authentic? It
19 was signed by the general manager.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Could it be placed on the
21 ELMO for the interpreters, please? Could it be placed
22 on the ELMO?
23 MR. SUSAK:
24 Q. It says Vitezit-- would you please read it
25 out? Do you think this is correct, that Drago
1Josipovic was engaged in all these activities?
2 A. Yes. I fully corroborate this certificate,
3 which is also duly stamped. Yes, Drago Josipovic did
4 perform all these duties in the company.
5 THE REGISTRAR: This is D39/4.
6 A. I didn't get the first word.
7 MR. SUSAK:
8 Q. No. It's all right. Now, you told us that
9 he was a very industrious worker. On what terms was he
10 with his Muslim fellow workers?
11 A. Very correct. Most of the Muslims would
12 say -- said that he was a moderate man and nominated
13 him for all these activities.
14 Q. You mean all these fora?
15 A. Yes. They believed he would take adequate
16 decisions, I mean, in terms of improving the working
17 conditions and the organisation.
18 Q. You told us that about 80 per cent of the
19 employees were Muslims in that enterprise. What does
20 that mean then if he was elected to all these fora by
21 all these Muslims?
22 A. Well, it means that they appreciated him
23 highly and that he was a part of the normal -- of the
24 regular life that we led there.
25 Q. You told us briefly how Drago Josipovic was
1at work, but I also asked you if you knew him off of
2 the working hours and you told us you did. Do you know
3 where his house is?
4 A. I do. It is in the hamlet of Santici.
5 Q. Do you know who else is in this house?
6 A. Drago Josipovic lived with his mother, with
7 his wife and two children.
8 Q. What did his mother look like?
9 A. His mother was very old. She recently died.
10 Q. Was she healthy?
11 A. Well, in terms of health, like any person of
12 advanced age, but she was at home. She led a regular
14 Q. Did Drago Josipovic have something to do with
15 children who went to school?
16 A. Yes, of course. We talked about that often.
17 He did take care of his children, of his family, of his
19 Q. Did he spend most of the time at home or
20 outside? I mean, he had two children.
21 A. Drago did take care of his children, and by
22 large, he spent his time at home or around home.
23 Q. Did he perhaps have a house garden or
24 something like that, or some livestock?
25 A. Yes. He does have a house with a small house
1garden. They have a small farm, and they also had a
2 cow, some hens, and such like, and a vegetable garden.
3 Q. So you said that he looked after his two
4 minor children who went to school. What kind of care
5 did he is show for his children, from what you saw?
6 A. Well, he saw that they would have a meal
7 after they came from school. He helped their mother
8 cook meals for them. He was there to meet them after
9 school. He saw that they changed clothes and other
10 things that had to do with children.
11 Q. What was the attitude of Drago Josipovic and
12 his family towards the Muslims who are his neighbours?
13 A. Yes. I also know that. They were very
14 considerate, and Drago even recommended his neighbour
15 Islam Ahmic to come and do the parquet in my house,
16 because they were on very good terms and he did things
17 for him. They got along very well from what I could
18 see. Decent behaviour, invitations to come and have a
19 cup of coffee, and good neighbourly relations between
20 them and the Muslim family -- I mean, from the
21 Josipovic and the Muslim family.
22 Q. You mentioned Islam Ahmic. What is his
24 A. Islam Ahmic is a Muslim.
25 Q. Would you know who were his neighbours? Who
1were other Muslim neighbours of his?
2 A. I knew a number of people because we went to
3 school together. Rahim Ahmic, Alaga Ahmic. They were
4 my schoolfellows.
5 Q. What were the relations between Drago and his
6 neighbours? Do you know Fahrudin Ahmic, for instance?
7 A. Yes, they were on very close terms. I did
8 not meet him particularly, but I heard from what he
9 told me when he would be there.
10 Q. What you are telling us about Drago
11 Josipovic, that you knew him at work. Yes, of course,
12 naturally you worked there, but after working hours did
13 you ever come closer to his house? How is it that you
14 know him after working hours? Could you tell us
15 something about that?
16 A. Well, I would come near his house helping my
18 Q. Will you please -- what kind of a
20 A. Sister-in-law is my husband's sister. She
21 had a plot of land. She had some private property and
22 we helped them cultivate it, whatever they -- the crops
23 they grew, that is, maize, potatoes, vegetable garden,
24 and such like.
25 Q. Right. So you used to go there. Do you
1remember the first conflict on the 20th of October,
2 1992? Do you remember that?
3 A. In 1991 --
4 Q. No, in 1992.
5 A. Oh, 1992.
6 Q. Did you hear anything about that?
7 A. Yes, I did hear about it. I was at home on
8 sick leave, and I heard that a conflict had broken out
9 but I wouldn't know any details. I only heard about
10 this and I had no opportunity of learning anything more
11 about that.
12 Q. What did you hear?
13 A. I heard that in the lower area a conflict had
14 broken out, that there was some unrest, that there was
15 some gunfire.
16 Q. Were any structures damaged about Drago
18 A. I think I heard that mostly structures like
19 stables were damaged, some houses were on fire, but I
20 didn't hear much about that.
21 Q. Right. Was Drago Josipovic a member of the
22 HDZ? Do you know that?
23 A. I don't think that Drago was a member of the
25 Q. Do you know Slavica Josipovic?
1A. Drago Josipovic's wife. I do know her.
2 MR. SUSAK: Mr. Usher, would you please show
3 the photocopy of this photograph to the witness?
4 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D40/4.
5 MR. SUSAK:
6 Q. So you have before you this photocopy of the
7 passport with the photograph of Slavica Josipovic.
8 Mrs. Vukadinovic, you have it over there on the ELMO.
9 Would you please look at it there? You can see it
10 better there. Who is this?
11 A. This is Slavica Josipovic from Santici, Drago
12 Josipovic's wife.
13 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, we have been
14 referring to Mrs. Slavica Josipovic all the time, that
15 she turned up at the press conference, and there was
16 transmitted by Busovaca TV. I would like to suggest to
17 show the videotape to the witness. This is D34/2. I
18 do not think it will take a long time. I should only
19 like to show the beginning and just to have the witness
20 testify to it and then tender this photograph into
22 JUDGE CASSESE: All right.
23 (Videotape played)
24 MR. SUSAK: Can we stop here, please? Can we
25 stop here, right at the beginning? Stop right at the
1beginning to ask the witness if she recognises Slavica
2 Josipovic, and so can we show the tape, the very
3 beginning, so the witness can see if she recognises the
5 (Videotape played)
6 MR. SUSAK: That's it.
7 Q. This person that you see in this photograph,
8 is that Slavica Josipovic or not?
9 A. No, this is not Slavica Josipovic. I can
10 affirm that.
11 MR. SUSAK: Thank you. Do I not need this
12 videotape any more.
13 Q. I shall move on with my questions.
14 Mrs. Vukadinovic, you told us that you came to your
15 sister-in-law, that is your husband's sister, to
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Would you see Drago Josipovic at home often
19 or seldom?
20 A. He was at home mostly. Often.
21 Q. How did he go to work?
22 A. He went to work by the company bus. It was
23 organised by the company.
24 Q. Did he ever drive a private car?
25 A. I never saw him drive a private car.
1Q. And where did Slavica Josipovic work?
2 A. Slavica Josipovic worked in the municipal
4 Q. And after that? I mean after 1993?
5 A. I believe she worked for Rajkovic, a private
6 company, and during the war, she worked for the
7 humanitarian cooperative, Mother and Child.
8 Q. Will you tell us, on what terms did she work,
9 more or less?
10 A. Oh, she worked too much. She was just too
11 active at work.
12 Q. But did she have any time to devote herself
13 to her home as Drago Josipovic did?
14 A. No. She is a different kind of person. She
15 is always moving about, she is always busy, and she was
16 very socially and publicly active, she worked in the
17 company and did all sorts of other things rather than
18 be at home and engage in household chores.
19 Q. Did Drago and Slavica Josipovic have a car?
20 A. Yes, they did have a car. I think it was a
21 Yugo make, and Slavica took it to go to work.
22 Q. Did she use it outside working hours?
23 A. Yes, she did. She always drove it.
24 Q. So she was very busy and she moved about very
25 much, and Drago Josipovic did not.
1A. No, Drago did not go out much, but she drove
2 the car.
3 Q. You mentioned that Drago Josipovic had a
4 positive attitude to Muslims?
5 A. Yes. He was a very positive individual
6 indeed in his relations with all people, with Muslims
7 and Serbs and Croats.
8 Q. Did Muslims respect him, bearing in mind that
9 they elected him to union bodies and then to the
10 Workers' Council?
11 A. Yes, of course he was respected, and he was
12 tolerant in his work both in those fora, in those
13 public fora, and at work.
14 Q. Did you ever think that Drago hated Muslims?
15 A. No. He cannot hate anyone.
16 Q. We shall move on to another subject but for
17 one question. Some witnesses stated here in court
18 that, on the 16th of March -- of April, '93, early in
19 the morning, that is, at half past 5.00, left his home
20 in the direction of Rovna. Would you know if and when
21 Drago Josipovic left his home and how in the direction
22 of Rovna?
23 A. All I know about these details --
24 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, I must object to
25 this question because I did not know until now that the
1witness was present in Ahmici on the 16th of April and
2 could tell us anything about what happened in Ahmici on
3 the 16th of April. So I do object to this question. I
4 do not think she can tell us that.
5 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, the Prosecutor is
6 right. This witness was presented as a character
7 witness, not as a fact witness, so if you could please
8 refrain from asking questions about the 16th of April?
9 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, you said that the
10 Chamber could, at its discretion, decide that if it
11 would be in the interests of justice, we can ask some
12 supplementary questions. This is, however, related to
13 Josipovic's character, that is, whether he agreed to
14 participate in fighting or whether he refused to. So I
15 believe my question was a natural, a logical one. How
16 did Drago Josipovic behave that way, how did he act
17 that morning, if she had heard. I only asked her what
18 she had heard. I never asked her or intimated that she
19 had been in Ahmici that morning, and I think that my
20 question was proper.
21 JUDGE CASSESE: I'm so sorry, I would like to
22 ask you to move on, to move on.
23 MR. SUSAK: I will rephrase it.
24 Q. Do you know if Drago Josipovic took part in
25 the slaying of Muslims and destruction of their houses
1in view of the kind of man he was?
2 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Susak, of course you
3 cannot put this question. This has nothing to do with
4 the character of Mr. Josipovic.
5 MR. SUSAK: Then I will ask just one more
7 Q. You said that you came near Drago Josipovic's
8 house, that is, to your husband's sister's house, and
9 when you would be there, would you be afraid if you
10 would see any uniformed men moving in the direction of
11 Novi Travnik, that means how did Drago Josipovic's
12 family feel?
13 A. "At that time." What time do you mean?
14 Q. '93. I mean the time prior to the second
16 A. At that time, I did not go in that direction
17 and I seldom went there because the immediate danger of
18 war had already been proclaimed and a state of war.
19 Q. So who used that road; will you just tell us
20 that? Who held it?
21 A. Well, this is the main road. This is the
22 main communication, and at that time, it was regulated
23 by military police.
24 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I have here a list
25 of the HDZ from the 18th of September, '91 until the
18th of April, '92. It has been submitted to the
2 Chamber and to us, and it is assumed that the persons
3 listed here are HDZ members. So can this list be shown
4 to this witness because I shall like to ask her some
5 questions about it?
6 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. Susak, could you please
7 remind us of the number that this exhibit had, the
9 MR. SUSAK: This is 41. This is going to be
11 JUDGE MAY: No, it's Exhibit 353.
12 MR. SUSAK: But the Prosecutor has already
13 tendered that.
14 JUDGE MAY: Exhibit 353.
15 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President --
16 MR. SUSAK: Your Honour, no. This is another
18 MR. TERRIER: This is another list. Three
19 hundred fifty-three is a list of HVO members, and this
20 is a list of HDZ members during the period of time
21 prior to April '92, and we gave it to the Defence
22 because we thought it might be of some help to them,
23 but I do not think that it is already on the records.
24 THE REGISTRAR: This is Prosecutor's Exhibit
2 Q. Mrs. Vukodinovic, would you please take this
3 list in your hand, but could you move over so that it
4 can also be seen on the ELMO and you can look at it.
5 Don't look at the monitor, please, but look at the list
6 itself. Could you move your chair so that you can do
8 Could you please turn to page 1? Could you
9 tell me what the title means, "Participants in the
10 Armed Resistance to Aggression"?
11 A. When it says "Participants in the Armed
12 Resistance to Aggression," these are mainly men who are
13 of military age, who are able-bodied and able to take
14 part in defence.
15 Q. Very well. Could you tell me what it says on
16 the left, at the head?
17 A. It says "Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Croatian
18 Community of Herceg-Bosna, the Municipal Head Office in
20 Q. So this is a list of the Vitez municipality
21 head office?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. On the right-hand side, it says "Basic
24 Branch," and then there is a place name.
25 A. Yes. This refers to the territory to
2 Q. The local commune?
3 A. Yes, the local commune belongs to.
4 Q. On this list and the other lists, is there
5 any mention of the HDZ?
6 A. No, not on this page.
7 Q. Would you please tell us where you are from?
8 A. I was born in Mosunj, the village of Mali
9 Mosunj. I married in Kruscica.
10 Q. So you married in Kruscica where you live?
11 A. Yes, I live in Kruscica.
12 Q. And you were born in Mali Mosunj?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And you were employed in Vitez?
15 A. Yes, I was employed in Vitez the whole time.
16 Q. Since the list shows the names of people who
17 were, as you said, able-bodied and of military age, I
18 would like to ask you about the people from Kruscica,
19 Mali Mosunj, and the centre of Vitez because these are
20 people you know, taking into account the fact that you
21 were born there or that you lived there or worked
22 there. Could you please find the village of Mali
23 Mosunj here and the persons listed from that village
24 and column 11?
25 A. I found it.
1Q. Have you found it?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. What name is written here? We said column
4 number 11.
5 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Susak, do you mean
6 page 11?
7 MR. SUSAK: Yes. The list is according to
8 places. In the right-hand corner, at the top, is the
9 name of the place.
10 Q. Mrs. Vukodinovic, would you listen to me,
11 please? Could you please look at the first page of the
12 small format and find the column 11. It's page 39.
13 Have you found it?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. What does column 11 say?
16 A. Zigonjic Stipe Franjo.
17 Q. So Franjo, son of Stipe Zigonjic. Was he a
18 member of the HDZ?
19 A. No, he was not a member of the HDZ, but he
20 was able-bodied and able to take part in defence.
21 Q. Would you please find the name Ivan Budimir
22 on this -- number 11 on the big list; 111 but 11 on the
23 big list, Mali Mosunj. It's near the end of the big
25 A. He was a member of the HDZ. He was.
1Q. Would you please tell us who signed this
3 A. The list was signed by all those who happened
4 to be at home when the lists were drawn up.
5 Q. Who was Ivan Budimir?
6 A. Ivan Budimir was a personal friend of mine
7 and an acquaintance.
8 Q. Did he sign this list for Mali Mosunj?
9 A. No, it's not his signature, it's the
10 signature of his wife, Marija.
11 Q. Why did his wife sign the list instead of
13 A. Because he was not at home.
14 Q. Do you know, in the village of Gacice, if you
15 look at column 11 you can find the name Slavo
16 Krizanovic. Have you found it? The village of
18 A. Can you tell me the page number?
19 Q. It's column 7 on the little format, the small
21 A. What page?
22 Q. But --
23 A. I found it. I found it.
24 Q. Slavko Krizanovic. Was he on the list?
25 JUDGE CASSESE: Could you tell us the page
1number? Do you know Susak, we don't have the page
3 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, the Prosecutor did
4 not number the pages, but it's page 34 on the small
6 Thirty-nine you said? Could you please help
7 me, because you have it in front of you. What page is
8 it? It's 51. Page 51.
9 Q. Could you please tell us who signed for
10 Slavko Krizanovic?
11 A. His wife Danica did.
12 Q. Was he a member of the HDZ?
13 A. Slavko is was not a member of the HDZ.
14 Q. Why did his wife sign his name then?
15 A. Because he wasn't at home.
16 Q. We have now a block of last names which you
17 will find easily. It's the municipality centre, the
18 centre of Vitez. Could you please point out the names
19 of people who are not members of the HDZ but whose
20 names are on this list? It's for the centre of Vitez.
21 It's in the middle of the small format. You
22 found it.
23 Could you please list, if you know, the
24 people who are on this list? You can tell us the
25 number. It begins with number 53.
1JUDGE CASSESE: Could you please, again, give
2 us the page number?
3 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, this is very
4 confused because there are other numbers for every
5 place. It's 74. It's page 74, but for this person
6 it's number 74.
7 A. This page shows the name of Marinko Katava
8 from the centre Territorial Defence. He was not a
9 member of the HDZ.
10 MR. SUSAK:
11 Q. Could you turn to the next page and could you
12 tell us who else on this list was not an HDZ member?
13 A. Denis Ajanovic.
14 Q. What is he by nationality?
15 A. His mother was a Serb and his father was a
17 Q. Who signed for him? Is this his signature?
18 A. It was signed by his father, Nedzib
20 Q. Could you look at number 94 now?
21 A. Niko Tihomir Josic.
22 Q. Was he a member?
23 A. He was not a member of the HDZ.
24 Q. Who signed for him?
25 A. His sister, Dragica Elek.
1Q. We are now going on to page 76. Would you
2 look at number 113? Who is this?
3 A. Desimir Skavo.
4 Q. Rademko?
5 A. Rademko, yes.
6 Q. Was he a member of the HDZ?
7 A. He was not a member of the HDZ.
8 Q. What is he by nationality?
9 A. He is a Serb.
10 Q. Number 116.
11 A. Dusko Bulajic.
12 Q. Was he a member of the HDZ?
13 A. He was not a member of the HDZ.
14 Q. What is he by nationality?
15 A. He's a Serb.
16 Q. Now, to cut this short, let us just look at
17 number 130.
18 A. The name is Milan Subasic.
19 Q. What is he by nationality?
20 A. Milan Subasic, is a Serb.
21 Q. Was he a member of the HDZ?
22 A. No, he wasn't.
23 Q. Could you tell us if this is his signature?
24 A. Just a moment. Yes, he signed this.
25 Q. Very well. What about Milenko Mirkovic?
1It's on page 77, number 141.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Was he a member of the HDZ?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Could you tell us who signed for him? Is
6 this his signature? It doesn't say "Milenko."
7 A. I think it was signed by Madam Ljilja.
8 Q. He is a Serb by nationality?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Then you have Predrag Todorovic. What is he
11 by nationality?
12 A. He was Serb by nationality.
13 Q. Did he sign this himself? Is this his
14 signature or is this a different name?
15 A. No, it wasn't him. It was his wife.
16 Q. And last -- we're still on the same page, 77,
17 in column 146 or, rather, in line 146, Pero Knezic.
18 What was he by nationality?
19 A. He was a Serb.
20 Q. Was he a member of the HDZ?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Could you tell me whether there were any
23 Serbs in Vitez who were members of the HDZ?
24 A. No, there weren't.
25 Q. Why?
1A. Because they had the SDS party and most of
2 them belonged to that party.
3 Q. So they had their own ethnic party?
4 A. Yes. They also had the SDP party in which
5 most -- so most Serbs were either in the SDP or the
7 Q. Could you tell us how this list was drawn up,
8 if you know? You said that you're a lawyer.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. So who drew up this list and in what way, if
11 you know? I would like to draw your attention to the
12 signatories, coordinator, commander, and the president
13 of the branch of the HDZ. So do you know how this list
14 was drawn up?
15 A. Yes, I know how it was drawn up. At the
16 initiative of the HDZ, the list was started in
17 municipal head office. One of the members was from the
18 HDZ. The second member was from the office for
19 defence, and the third member of the group drawing up
20 the list was someone who coordinated their work with
21 the municipal head office and the defence office,
22 because this had to do with the municipality.
23 Q. So you want to tell us that these three
24 signatories, the three people who drew up this list
25 were the coordinator, the commander, and the head of
1the local branch. So there was one member of the HDZ,
2 one representative of defence office, and the third one
3 was a representative of the territory, of the -- so can
4 you tell us what the role of the HDZ was here?
5 A. The HDZ took the initiative in all this so
6 that a list would be drawn up by territorial branches,
7 because the HDZ organised itself along territorial
8 lines. So that made it easier to get hold of
10 Q. So they gave information to the office for
12 A. Yes, but I have to stress that only one of
13 the people who did this was a member of the HDZ.
14 Q. This was always the president of the local
15 branch of the HDZ?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. I would now like to ask you -- you have seen
18 the list and we have pointed out several persons who
19 were not members of the HDZ, so I would now like to ask
20 you the following: Were all the persons on this list
21 members of the HDZ or were only some of them members of
22 the HDZ?
23 A. As I have already said, these are only
24 persons who are able-bodied and of military age, and
25 there are HDZ members among them.
1Q. The signatories who sign this list, if you
2 look at page 1, did they know were signing -- were they
3 aware of the fact that they were signing this as HDZ
4 members or as participants in organised resistance?
5 A. No. They knew they were signing only as
6 participants of organised resistance to aggression.
7 Q. So they did not know that this list was an
8 HDZ list because it doesn't say that anywhere?
9 A. But this is not an HDZ list.
10 Q. So --
11 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, Mr. Susak is
12 asking the witness to say something about persons who
13 are registered here, and a number of them. I do not
14 think that these questions are particularly relevant,
15 and he is either asking the witness something that he
16 can say or, again, the witness should tell us under
17 what circumstances and how did she learn about the
18 conditions and about people who signed this list,
19 otherwise, I do not think that we can come to a point.
20 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Susak, I think the
21 Prosecutor is right. So could you please either
22 refrain from asking this question or rephrase it along
23 the lines suggested by the Prosecutor?
24 MR. SUSAK: Very well, Mr. President.
25 Q. I'll ask what does "Local branch" mean here
1in the heading? What does it say here? There's a
2 place name but is the HDZ mentioned anywhere here on
3 the document?
4 A. In the left-hand corner at the top, it just
5 says "Local branch."
6 Q. You mean the right-hand corner?
7 A. Yes, I mean the right-hand corner.
8 Q. Does it say that this is a local branch of
9 the HDZ?
10 A. No. No, it doesn't.
11 Q. What does this mean? Is this the territorial
12 principle, according to which information was provided
13 for certain people from a certain territory for the
14 needs of the defence office?
15 A. Yes. So this is simply of territorial
16 importance. It shows where these people are, to which
17 territory they belong.
18 Q. Did HDZ members have documents showing that
19 they were HDZ members?
20 A. Yes, they did.
21 Q. If they had been listed as HDZ members, would
22 the number of the document have been entered in here?
23 A. Yes, of course. It's logical.
24 Q. Another question: At that time, in 1991 and
25 1992, did the Croats know or, rather, did you know that
1in 1993 there was going to be a conflict between the
2 Muslims and the Croats?
3 A. At that time, no one thought there might be a
4 conflict between the Croats and the Muslims.
5 Q. So on this list we see that the list is
6 participants in organised resistance to aggression.
7 Every page is the same. Could you look at page 1? Is
8 this what people signed, "Participants in organised
9 assistance to aggression?"
10 A. Yes. Mostly they signed this.
11 Q. This has been delivered to us by the
12 Prosecution as a cover page, and it says "HDZ," from
13 the period of a certain date to -- from the 18th of
14 September, 1991, to the 8th of April, 1992.
15 What does this mean?
16 A. This was all prepared for the Vitez defence
17 office, and this shows that one of the people drawing
18 up this list was an HDZ member, because the initiative
19 came from HDZ members to complete the job faster and to
20 complete the organisation by territorial branches.
21 Q. These HDZ territorial branches, did they have
22 the best information because other authorities were not
23 functioning considering the war?
24 A. Well, considering there was a state of
25 immediate threat of war, the HDZ had the best
1territorial organisation and that is why this activity
2 was started, according to the territorial branches.
3 Q. Do you know, at the railway station, which is
4 a part of Vitez, one of the people who signed this list
5 is Dragan Strbac. Can you tell me who he was?
6 A. Dragan Strbac was working in the Civil
7 Defence, cooperating with the Defence office, or,
8 rather, this was part of the Defence Office of Vitez.
9 Q. It means that Dragan Strbac was a
10 coordinator. Do you know of any other instance when
11 coordinators turned up and they worked for the defence
13 A. There is also Zdravko Bosnjak who still works
14 for the Defence Office in Vitez.
15 Q. Did he also sign as a coordinator?
16 A. Both as a coordinator or as a member,
17 depending on where he worked.
18 Q. As three persons invariably signed these
19 lists, the coordinator, representative of the basic
20 branch of the HDZ, were they always HDZ members or
22 A. We have the chairman of the basic branch. He
23 was also the president of the HDZ for this basic
25 Q. And the other two coordinators?
1A. They did not have to be members of the HDZ.
2 They be could simply activists of the Civil Defence or
3 the Defence Office in Vitez.
4 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I have no more
5 questions. I should also like to tender into evidence
6 D39 and D40.
7 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Any objection?
8 No objection. They are admitted into evidence.
9 Mr. Terrier?
10 MR. TERRIER: Thank you, Mr. President.
11 Cross-examined by Mr. Terrier:
12 Q. Good morning, Madam. My name is Franck
13 Terrier, and I represent the Prosecution. I would like
14 to ask you several questions on the basis of your
16 First I should like to ask you if you are
17 related to Dragan Vukodinovic, who was the president of
18 the Vitez HDZ.
19 A. Dragan Vukodinovic is my late husband.
20 Q. Can you confirm that he was a member of the
21 Vitez HDZ?
22 A. Yes, I confirm that he was a member of the
23 Vitez HDZ.
24 Q. And you yourself, were you a member of the
25 HDZ party during the period concerned, that is, in '91,
1'92, and '93?
2 A. I was not a member of the HDZ or any other
3 political party.
4 Q. Is it absurd to think that even if not a
5 member of the HDZ, you nevertheless were very
6 interested in the work of this organisation because you
7 could offer us very accurate information about the
8 conditions under which this list was compiled?
9 Mr. Susak has an objection.
10 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I abide by your
11 written instructions. I think that the Prosecution has
12 now gone beyond the examination-in-chief, because
13 during the examination-in-chief, I never mentioned
14 Mrs. Vukodinovic's husband.
15 JUDGE CASSESE: But the question has nothing
16 to do with the testimony, that is, the position of the
17 witness in the HDZ. If she knew, if she had
18 information, even if she was not a member of the HDZ,
19 she nevertheless evidently knew, had information about
20 the organisation, about the functioning of that party,
21 so I think the question is pertinent.
22 MR. TERRIER:
23 Q. Madam, how did you learn about the internal
24 organisation of the HDZ?
25 A. Well, it was like this: I was a direct
1member of the election committee and I had all the
2 information related to the elections of '92 accessible
3 to me so I didn't go into that. I was not biased, I
4 did not support any of these parties, I was not
5 interested in any -- particularly any detail regarding
6 any party active in the Vitez territory.
7 Q. A few moments ago, in answer to Mr. Susak's
8 question, you told us who was a member of the HDZ and
9 who was not a member of the HDZ on this list and under
10 what conditions this list was compiled, so apparently
11 you know very well how the HDZ in Vitez worked, not
12 only how it worked but also who were its members.
13 So my question is: How could you acquire
14 this particular knowledge that you shared with us a few
15 moments ago?
16 A. I did not have to gather that particular
17 knowledge anywhere because I live and work in Vitez and
18 I was, as of the beginning, informed about the
19 situation in Vitez as a member of the election
21 Q. Yes, Madam, but you just told us that this
22 election -- that this commission did not give or have
23 any particular information about the functioning, about
24 the workings of any particular party.
25 A. Right, any party.
1Q. Nevertheless, you can tell us, for instance,
2 that Franjo Zigonjic and others were not members of the
3 HDZ. So in what way did you learn that?
4 A. Because I only mentioned the names of people
5 I know personally.
6 Q. Your husband, did he hold office in the HDZ?
7 A. Until '98, he did not.
8 Q. Were you related to Perica Vukodinovic?
9 A. Through my marriage.
10 Q. Could you please explain what you mean?
11 A. They are my husband's relations.
12 Q. I ask you because a witness who testified
13 here on the 11th of February, '98 [sic], a Defence
14 witness, mentioned the name of Perica Vukodinovic as
15 implicated in the murder of Samir Trako in Vitez in May
16 1992, but you are not personally related to this
17 individual, are you?
18 A. Whom do you mean, Perica Vukodinovic or
20 Q. Perica Vukodinovic.
21 A. Well, I know him rather well.
22 Q. What do you know about the incident with
23 Samir that I mentioned?
24 A. Very little.
25 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, this is really
1going beyond the framework of the examination-in-chief.
2 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, yes, that is
3 quite true, but nevertheless it is very difficult to
4 know what are the boundaries of the
5 examination-in-chief because what he was asking had
6 nothing to do with examination-in-chief before.
7 But I shall move on to another question, and
8 I hope that the witness will be able to tell us -- I
9 hope that the witness will be able to give us some
10 information about this incident, but nevertheless ...
11 Q. Madam, I believe you can tell us if Drago
12 Josipovic was a member of the HDZ, as far as you know?
13 A. No.
14 Q. You seem to have closely read this list.
15 Does Drago Josipovic figure in it?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Could you tell us the page -- could you
18 indicate the page -- oh, it is --
19 A. Yes, if I look at it, because they were
20 compiled per branch offices, that is, per territory,
21 and I can say that this was the territory of Santici.
22 Q. Will you please tell us the page number?
23 A. Page 19. Forty-five. He's under number 45.
24 Q. Thank you. And this signatory who signed for
25 that name, is that Drago Josipovic's signature? Was it
1signed by Drago Josipovic as far as you can tell us?
2 A. Yes, this is his signature.
3 Q. The presence of Drago Josipovic's name on
4 this list and his signature here, does that not mean
5 that he was a member of the HDZ at that time? And
6 we're talking about the 18th of September, '91 until
7 the 8th of April, 1992.
8 A. Could you repeat the question, please?
9 Q. The fact that Drago Josipovic's name features
10 on this list and the fact that he signed this list
11 personally, it says HDZ, between the -- in the list
12 which says HDZ, between the 18th of September, '91 and
13 the 8th of April, '92, does that not mean that Drago
14 Josipovic was a member of the HDZ during that period of
16 A. It need not mean that. It can only mean that
17 he happened to be at home at the time when they were
18 drawing up this list.
19 Q. You said at home. Was he at home or without
20 work? Did he just happen to be at home when these
21 people happened to be passing by? What do you mean
22 when you say he was at home?
23 A. That at the time, when this list was being
24 drawn up, when the names were collected, he happened to
25 be at home. It need not mean that there were not any
1other persons, but it is most proper for the person
2 whose particulars have been taken to sign the document.
3 Q. I understand. What you are saying is that he
4 was at home and people came and asked him to sign and
5 he signed. But why is his name on this list? Why was
6 his name put on this list?
7 A. Because he was either able-bodied, that is,
8 he could work or he would fight. He was of military
9 age and able-bodied.
10 Q. But don't we see on this list all the people
11 from the territory of Vitez who are able-bodied and are
12 of military age? And that is not the case. We don't
13 have the list of all the people fitting that
15 A. But these are the initial data found there,
16 that is my guess, at the time when these lists were
17 made on the basis of the territorial principle.
18 Q. Madam, another document was tendered here
19 under P353, and this is a list of names of people who
20 participated in the defence during the period after
21 April 1992, and that list and other lists include many
22 more names; it is two or three times as long as this
23 list here. So does it not -- so that this list is not
24 the same as the list which is numbered 353, and the
25 list which you have before you, is it not a selection
1of certain names because this list does not include the
2 names of all the inhabitants of Vitez?
3 A. It need not mean that because this is not an
4 official census. The official census or official list
5 was kept only by the authorities.
6 Q. I shall move on to another question. You
7 spoke about Drago Josipovic's wife, Slavica. Did you
8 maintain any personal relations with her?
9 A. No, not at that time. My relations were with
10 Drago and it had to do with our work. I knew Slavica
11 only through administration bodies, that is, because of
12 work, and I didn't know her as much as I knew Drago.
13 Q. But didn't you tell us a moment ago that you
14 visited Drago Josipovic professionally and also
15 privately, that is, both during working hours and
16 outside working hours, and that you also were informed
17 about his personal life, you knew about his private
18 life, about his children?
19 A. Yes, because we met often, and in the course
20 of our conversations, we got to know one another and
21 children and wife, that is, I met his wife through him.
22 Q. I see. But you did not know his wife
24 A. Yes, through him and through work.
25 Q. I believe there is some -- I think we are
1talking at cross-purposes. But did you go to his
2 house? Have you been to his home?
3 A. I was invited there only when we worked at my
4 husband's sister's, next to his home, so they would
5 invite us over for a friendly chat at times when we
6 would take rest.
7 Q. So did you meet his wife on such occasions?
8 A. Not very often. Slavica usually was not at
9 home but Drago and his late mother were very
10 considerate, very hospitable, and on such occasions,
11 yes, I met Slavica outside work.
12 Q. But tell us when it was that you met
13 Slavica? Was it in 1993 or before that?
14 A. Before 1993, I met her through work. She was
15 the one who issued building permits. She worked at the
16 office for the issuance of building permits and worked
17 in the enterprise. Then I would ask Drago something
18 else, whatever we needed for the company, anything that
19 we needed, and he told us that his wife worked there
20 and so it was easier to solve some company matters
21 through her. But it was prior to 1990, it was before
22 1990 even.
23 Q. But at that time, Slavica Josipovic was not
24 often at home, as you told us, and is it because she
25 had some political duties, because she held some
2 A. Not at that time. She only was employed and
3 worked for the administration, but she would go out
4 into the field.
5 Q. Could you be more specific? What period of
6 time are you referring to?
7 A. Before 1990.
8 Q. If we then turn to the period after 1990,
9 that is, 1991 principally until 1993, at that time,
10 could you then answer my question regarding the
11 political work of Slavica?
12 A. All I know is that Slavica was a member of
13 the HDZ, but whether she held some office there, I
14 don't know.
15 Q. You can tell us who is and who is not a
16 member of the HDZ in this list. We could see that.
17 But you cannot tell us what were the responsibilities,
18 what were the duties of Slavica Josipovic in the HDZ,
19 can you?
20 A. I don't know about that. As far as I know,
21 as of 1995, she may have had some office, that is,
22 after the ceasefire was signed in '94, that is, '95, I
23 believe she was on the municipal board, but during that
24 period of time, I'm not really -- I don't think she
25 held any particular office.
1Q. A moment ago you told us that Drago Josipovic
2 held some union positions, that he was representing the
3 unions at the Sintevit company and two other
4 companies. Could you tell us, how did he come to hold
5 those offices? Was it through appointment or through
7 A. It was like this -- it would take a great
8 long time to describe to you the sort of management
9 system arrangements, when you have workers' assemblies
10 pronouncing themselves someplace. "Workers' assembly"
11 means all employees of a production plant. They would
12 nominate one or two persons from amongst themselves to
13 the executive board. Then this executive board of the
14 union would then elect their representatives to the
15 action conference, that is, all production units would
16 nominate their representatives. So he had to be
17 nominated by somebody from his own production plant.
18 Q. So to try to make it as clear as possible,
19 and this is something that does not exist any more, but
20 you are telling us that he was nominated for this
21 office, for this post?
22 A. Well, somebody had to nominate him. The
23 constituency, so to speak, were the body of employees,
24 that is, somebody had to nominate him and he would be
25 elected. He was on the list. There would be a secret
1ballot usually, but at times they would also vote
3 Q. As of when did Drago Josipovic come to hold
4 these executive posts in the union, these offices in
5 the union?
6 A. Well, those were not professional posts. We
7 call them self-management offices. So he did not do it
8 professionally. He was not paid for it.
9 Q. But my question is: When is it that Drago
10 Josipovic was elected to these offices that you just
11 described to us?
12 A. I cannot remember exactly. I do know that
13 before 1990 he already was nominated. First they would
14 be elected for a four-year term, then they were elected
15 for a two-year term. So I cannot say. So it would be
16 1988 until 1990 he was a member of the executive
17 board. After '91, I really cannot say without some
18 reliable proof.
19 Q. But the same set of documents which Mr. Susak
20 submitted awhile ago were talking about the beginning,
21 the early days of 1991.
22 A. Yes. That documents referred to 1991.
23 Q. I mean that before that. Drago Josipovic did
24 not hold any noteworthy office prior to 1991?
25 A. Yes, that's what is I said. I confirmed that
1because I worked as of 1991. As of '91, I was on leave
2 because I was expecting a baby, so that for other
3 periods of time I can speak only on the basis of some
5 Q. Now I'm referring to 1991, '92, and '93.
6 During that period of time, the question of political
7 membership, partisanship, would it affect, of course --
8 would it affect the membership in the union or the
9 posts held there, or some management bodies?
10 A. No. Union organisations had never anything
11 to do with political membership.
12 Q. But the political conflict, did it affect
13 somehow the union movement, the union structure?
14 A. There were no political conflicts at the
16 Q. After the elections, after the big elections,
17 but this is a question which does not refer to Drago
18 Josipovic specifically but the existence of different
19 parties, some of them were very ethnically based, such
20 as HDZ, SDS, and so on and so forth. Did this aspect
21 affect the unions in any manner, the institutional
22 organisation of unions? Do you understand my
24 A. No, union worked independent of party
25 membership during that period of time. During that
1period of time, their activity came down only to the
2 distribution of relief, provision of food supplies for
3 the employees.
4 Q. Could you tell us what period of time you are
5 talking about?
6 A. I'm talking about the time after 1991.
7 MR. TERRIER: Thank you. I have no further
9 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. We will take a
10 break now? Before we take a break, Mr. Susak, do you
11 have many questions?
12 MR. SUSAK: No, do I not, Mr. President.
13 JUDGE CASSESE: No questions. Thank you.
14 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, excuse me, has
15 this book been tendered into evidence?
16 JUDGE CASSESE: The list you mean, the
18 JUDGE MAY: She said it was 371.
19 JUDGE CASSESE: I think it should be. It
20 should be given a number. 371, isn't it?
21 MR. TERRIER: Yes. Yes, I tender it.
22 JUDGE CASSESE: No objection, Counsel Susak,
23 for the 371?
24 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I've object to its
25 being admitted into evidence because the title has been
1added to these lists, and the title does not correspond
2 with the contents of this list because these people are
3 not HDZ members. So I object to its being admitted
4 into evidence.
5 JUDGE CASSESE: On the other hand,
6 Counsel Susak, this was relied upon by you yourself.
7 It was not produced by the Prosecutor. It was handed
8 by the Prosecutor to the Defence counsel, and you
9 quoted and actually heavily relied on this document.
10 How can you now object to its admission into evidence?
11 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I hope you will
12 see my point. This is the last witness for Drago
13 Josipovic and I had to ask these questions, but I do
14 not know how the Prosecutor will use this document in
15 the future. This was my last opportunity to check on
16 this list. Today I did not intend to tender it into
17 evidence. All I wanted to do was to examine this
18 witness, but the Prosecutor could examine his witnesses
19 in a different manner with regard to this document.
20 JUDGE CASSESE: Well, we admit this document
21 into evidence as P371.
22 All right. Mrs. Vukadinovic, thank you so
23 much for testifying here in The Hague. You may now be
25 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
1(The witness withdrew)
2 JUDGE CASSESE: We adjourn for 30 minutes.
3 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.
4 --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.
5 (The witness entered court)
6 JUDGE CASSESE: I understand a closed session
7 has been requested by Counsel Pavkovic.
8 (Closed session)
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16 (Open session)
17 JUDGE CASSESE: Good afternoon, Mr. Katava.
18 Would you please stand and make the solemn
20 THE WITNESS: Good morning, Your Honours. I
21 solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole
22 truth, and nothing but the truth.
23 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be
24 seated. Counsel Pavkovic?
25 MR. PAVKOVIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
1THE WITNESS: MARINKO KATAVA
2 Examined by Mr. Pavkovic:
3 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Katava.
4 A. Good afternoon.
5 Q. It is usual, so would you please first tell
6 us something about yourself, your full name, date of
8 A. My name is Marinko Katava. I was born on the
9 18th of November, 1952, in Busovaca. I live in Vitez.
10 My address is Marshal Tito A5.
11 Q. Mr. Katava, are you married?
12 A. Yes. I am married and I have five children.
13 Q. What is your wife's name?
14 A. My wife is Jelica. My daughters are Anita,
15 Ivana, Kristina, Gabrella.
16 Q. Could you tell us how old your children are?
17 A. My eldest daughter was born in 1975. The
18 next one in '78. Then we had twins in 1980 and the
19 youngest was born in 1988.
20 Q. Thank you. Mr. Katava, could you tell me
21 what your profession is?
22 A. I am an administrative lawyer and I have been
23 employed in that capacity since 1977.
24 Q. Could you tell me what you are doing today?
25 A. Today I'm the director of a private company.
1Q. Do you have any brothers?
2 A. Yes. I have a brother who is two years older
3 than me. At the moment he's a refugee from Vukovar,
4 living in the vicinity of Vinkovci.
5 Q. Could you speak a little slower because of
6 the interpreters, please? Could you tell me whether
7 you have any half brothers?
8 A. Yes, I have two half brothers. They are
9 younger than me. One was born in 1958, the other in
11 Q. Do you have a twin brother perhaps?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Do you know -- you say that you are an
14 administrative lawyer by profession. Do you know
15 whether in Vitez and the surrounding area there is
16 another person called Marinko Katava?
17 A. Not in Vitez. In 1990, I was a member of the
18 municipal electoral commission and I had a list of the
19 voters, and the only person whose last name was Katava
20 was I. There is another person, much younger than me,
21 called Marinko Katava in the Busovaca municipality.
22 Q. Today, Mr. Katava, you said that you were the
23 managing director or the owner of a private company.
24 Is it your company?
25 A. Yes. It belongs to me and my wife.
1Q. If we go back a little to a time before these
2 wartime events, could you please tell me what you were
3 doing before 1990, what your job was?
4 A. Before what year?
5 Q. 1990. Were you employed as a lawyer?
6 A. Yes. I was employed as a lawyer from the 1st
7 of February, 1987. I was in a timber company called
8 Impregnacia in Vitez, which employed between 500 and
9 600 employees, and until 1993 I was the head of the
10 personnel department and the general administration
12 Q. Can you tell me what your job consisted of?
13 A. Well, in the self-management system which we
14 had in the entire ex-Yugoslavia, it was a very
15 demanding job. We had to provide services to all the
16 self-management bodies.
17 Q. At that time, was the issue of employment and
18 dismissal a topical one?
19 A. Yes. I was in charge of all the rights and
20 obligations arising from employment, the start and
21 termination of employment, and in labour disputes and
22 so on.
23 Q. I apologise. After I ask you a question,
24 could you pause a little before replying so that
25 everything you say can be interpreted?
1In your former job, were you also in charge
2 of resolving the housing problems of the employees?
3 A. Yes. In that system, companies had to
4 earmark some of their funds for housing construction.
5 This was a solidarity housing, and every year there
6 were a few flats, the construction of which was funded
7 by our company and which were intended for our
8 employees who had to compete for them at a public
10 Q. I would now like to ask you about the names
11 of certain persons, and I would like you to tell me
12 whether they were then employed in your company. Could
13 you tell me whether you knew Muzafer Puscul?
14 A. Yes. Yes, I knew him.
15 Q. Where was he employed?
16 A. He worked in Impregnacia, with a secondary
17 school education, as a technician, and he was the
18 foreman. He was the foreman of a shift, and that was a
19 lower level of leadership responsibility.
20 Q. What were your relations then?
21 A. Well, normal, I would say. Nothing special.
22 Neither good nor bad. There were 600 people there. I
23 knew most of them, and they probably all knew me
24 because I was the only person doing my job in that
1Q. Could you tell me whether there was an
2 employee called Sakib Ahmic in your company?
3 A. Yes, there was.
4 Q. Where was Mr. Sakib Ahmic from. Where did he
5 live at that time?
6 A. I don't know where he lived -- because I know
7 that he lived in Ahmici. I don't know where in
9 Q. Can you tell me what jobs he did at
11 A. He was the driver of a passenger car and
12 he -- he was the driver for the directors, and the
13 directors had to be re-elected every four years.
14 Q. You said that there were numerous employees
15 in your former company. I have asked you about only
16 two of them. I will not go on.
17 Can you just tell me -- please don't mention
18 any third names -- but between the two persons we have
19 mentioned, was there any connection, and if so, what
20 kind of connection was there between Muzafer Puscul and
21 Sakib Ahmic?
22 A. Muzafer was Sakib's son-in-law.
23 Q. Could you tell me, as regards Mr. Sakib
24 Ahmic, one more thing. You said that among your other
25 duties at that time, you were also in charge of the
1housing problems of your employees. Can you recall an
2 event which might be important today when we mention
3 the name of Mr. Sakib Ahmic or his son-in-law? There
4 is something that I would like to throw light on so it
5 will become clear.
6 A. Well, there were several events connected
7 with that family and their housing problems. In those
8 15 years, there was never a competition for the
9 awarding of an apartment or a loan without their
11 If you will allow me, I would like to tell
12 you two, I might call them anecdotes, from the
13 self-management system. Sakib Ahmic asked for a flat
14 every year, trying to prove that his house had such bad
15 living conditions that he could no longer live in it.
16 When, finally, he managed to get to the top of the
17 list, it was for a one-room apartment, he gave up his
18 position because his son-in-law was the second on the
19 list, so his son-in-law got that apartment. In time,
20 he completed the construction of his family house, but
21 he never gave back the flat to the company.
22 Another thing that happened with regard to
23 Sakib: When he had to prove that he was an employee
24 who was without a place to live in, which would mean
25 that he would get 200 points on that list, he brought
1along a judgement saying that he was divorced. It was
2 an official court document showing that he was
3 divorced, that he had left his house to his wife and
4 that he was homeless.
5 I'm just trying to show you the character of
6 this man. The president of the housing commission, who
7 had the last say, was Sakib Ahmic's brother, Islam
8 Ahmic, but he then would not allow him to get the
9 apartment by such fraudulent means.
10 Q. Thank you. You have given your evaluation of
11 his attitude to these issues, so I will not go on with
12 this line of questioning.
13 Mr. Katava, I would now like to ask you very
14 briefly to recall the beginning of the year 1990 and
15 the time of the major social and political changes that
16 took place then, the time of multi-party elections, and
17 I would like to ask you whether you, at that time, were
18 a member of any political organisation, a political
20 A. No.
21 Q. This means that you were not a member then
22 and you are not a member now of the ruling party, the
23 Croatian Democratic Union --
24 A. No.
25 Q. -- the HDZ? With respect to your social
1activities at that time, can you tell me whether you
2 were a member of some kind of non-political
4 A. Well, I was a member of the hunting
5 association for some 15 years.
6 Q. Does that mean -- you say 15 years. Starting
7 from when?
8 A. Well, 15 years back from now.
9 Q. Does that mean that you had weapons?
10 A. Yes. I had and I still have a hunting rifle
11 produced in the Czech Republic.
12 Q. Did you ever have a military weapon so you
13 know how to handle a hunting rifle?
14 A. Yes, a hunting rifle, which includes a
15 hunter's carbine, I did not have one but I knew how to
16 use it. I had an old M-48 rifle when I served in the
18 Q. When was that?
19 A. That was in 1971.
20 Q. 1971, yes. Mr. Katava, you told us today
21 where you live, what your address is. Could you tell
22 me, in the first half of 1993, where did you live then?
23 A. I lived where I still live, in the same flat,
24 the same address. It was in Vitez, the street was then
25 called Marshal Tito, House number 5. The name of the
1street was changed after the war, but it is still the
2 same address.
3 Q. So in the first half of 1993, and this
4 includes the 16th of April, 1993, your address was
5 Marshal Tito Street, A5?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And you lived there with your family?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. I would now like to ask you some concrete
10 questions. I have awakened your recollections, so
11 could you please try to remember what you were doing on
12 the 15th of April, 1993, the day before these conflicts
13 broke out?
14 A. It was a normal working day like any other,
15 like the 13th, like the 12th, like the 5th, all the
16 days are the same. I would get up at half past six,
17 take my youngest daughter to kindergarten, work from
18 7.00 to 3.00, then pick up my daughter from the
19 kindergarten, come home. I have children, so that was
20 my daily routine.
21 Q. In the afternoon and in the evening, can you
22 remember, for example, when you went to bed?
23 A. It was usually after the news at 10 p.m.
24 Q. And the numerous family members that you
25 mentioned, were they all with you then?
1A. Yes, they were all with me.
2 Q. The children were very young then.
3 A. Yes. My eldest daughter was 18. The others
4 were much younger. The youngest was five.
5 MR. PAVKOVIC: I would now like to go back to
6 a question, but I will mention the names of some
7 protected witnesses, so I would like to go into private
8 session very briefly.
9 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Let's go into private
11 (Private session)
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8 (Open session)
9 MR. PAVKOVIC:
10 Q. So you went back to the entrance door into a
11 building sometime after 9.00, between 9.00 and 10.00.
12 Were your other neighbours there?
13 A. There was somebody all the time there.
14 People came and went. But it was mostly this group of
15 neighbours that I have just mentioned. From time to
16 time, for instance, Fahro came down. I remember he was
17 on the first floor and he was a man of somewhat
18 advanced age, Fahro -- I believe Salkic. He would come
19 down, come to us, ask me, "Would you like me to bring
20 you something to drink or something?" So -- "What's
21 going on? Is there anything going on?"
22 I think during the day, that neighbour --
23 what was his name -- Mr. Izvanovica, he came down once
24 and his wife also, and Dr. Mujenznovic. Well, we were
25 there practically. Not all the time. Not all of us
1all the time, but people wanted to be there to learn
2 something more, to find out something more, but that
3 day it was impossible to find out anything.
4 Q. Mr. Katava, you tried to explain to us what
5 you were doing at this entrance and I interrupted you.
6 I apologise. Before that, were you assigned a
7 particular duty, a task, telling you what you would be
8 expected to do under certain circumstances, in a
9 situation such as that one, for instance? Were you
10 assigned a certain responsibility or did you, that
11 morning, simply organise so as to protect your families
12 against possible onslaught or something?
13 A. No. There were no assignments. I think I
14 told you, when I came down I also already found some
15 people down there.
16 Q. Now, whose initiative was that?
17 A. I don't know. It was ours. If we can refer
18 to this group as "us," and whether it was a group of
19 three, or six, or seven, not more than that, and what
20 we wanted to do. Of course, I'm referring to my own,
21 but I believe other people reacted in the same way. We
22 simply had to be there in order to forestall or to
23 prevent somebody's bad conduct. It could have come
24 from anyone.
25 No. At that one point in time, I'm telling
1you, you enter here and there's the staircase to the
2 upper floors, and very often, not to say ten times or
3 more that day, well, those shells were falling just too
4 close. I mean, we felt as if they were falling right
5 in front us. Then we would simply get behind that
6 staircase to seek some shelter, because even there it
7 was not very safe.
8 Q. How many time did you spend at that part of
9 your entrance, that is coming and going, and visiting
10 flats on that day, on the 16th of April,'93?
11 A. Well, with intervals, one goes to have a bite
12 somewhere and, after all, there were some other needs
13 to attend to, but we were there all the time that
14 morning, all day, all night, until after the 20th of
16 Q. Do you know -- the entrance of this whole
17 block of flats, were they organised in the same
18 manner? Were they guarding those others?
19 A. No. This entrance, which is closest to this
20 side road, and then as you come here this is the
21 parking lot, and my entrance is the first one. From
22 that one you can see all the other entrances.
23 People were here at this, our entrance, and I
24 told you already from the entrance A8; A6, two of them;
25 and me. So from this whole, as I said, block it is
1five entrances into one in the same residential
3 Q. What does it face?
4 A. It faces so that from one place you can see
5 all the entrances and the parking lot, whatever, cars
6 parked, of course.
7 Q. Now, could you please search your memory?
8 You said shells fell and then you would seek shelter
9 behind the stairs and the interior of the buildings,
10 but would you try to remember what was the situation in
11 that town, in that part of your town, as you saw it or
12 as you remember it today? Could you, from where you
13 were, could you see all and what could you see? Also,
14 I would like to know how forceful were those
15 explosions? Where did they come from? Was there
16 small-arms fire? Could you please, if you remember, of
17 course, recount to us something about these details?
18 A. Well, what you can see from the place where
19 we stood -- well, it is a circle within which we moved,
20 and that is not more than a ten-metre diameter. So you
21 can only see over the roofs of the buildings, the top
22 of a hill or, rather, halfway up the hill to the top of
23 the hill. That is the village of Krcevine, and then
24 comes Poculica, and to the left is Preocica, to the
25 right Krcevine in a depression.
1What we could see what was -- so on that
2 side, that slope of the hill towards Zenica, and there
3 were some houses on fire.
4 Q. But where were the shells falling?
5 A. I don't know. I did not see in our part, and
6 we are surrounded, one, two, three, buildings, and ours
7 are the fourth, so that we were practically within a
8 circle enclosed by buildings. So we could not see
9 either the main road or those principal buildings such
10 as the post office, the police, the municipal hall. It
11 was to the left of us as the road goes on to Travnik.
12 It is about 300 or 400 metres.
13 Q. So there were no shells which fell in the
14 vicinity of your buildings, somebody with weapons?
15 A. No, no, but detonations were terrible.
16 Q. You said you were all the more frightened
17 because of that, because nobody had any experience with
19 A. Well, I didn't.
20 Q. Mr. Katava, tell me, in light of this
21 situation you've just described, if somebody wanted to
22 leave the building, that is, go into town, did people
23 move around the town from what you can see?
24 A. During those five days, where I lived was
25 ghostly. I just completely abounded -- nothing moved.
1In every town you -- it could be interesting. In every
2 town you find stray dogs, but that day even stray dogs
3 were absent.
4 Q. From your building, as far as you know, did
5 anybody leave? Did anybody go out?
6 A. Well, I can't really say that with certainty,
7 but I don't think so. Not from our entrance or from
8 other entrances. I think everybody was there.
9 Q. In view of what you just said, do you think
10 it would be reasonable for anyone to leave the
11 building, in view of what you are telling us?
12 A. No. I think it would have been crazy,
13 because if I tell you that even from that entrance, I
14 don't know how many times, must have been about ten or
15 a dozen times, running away to shelter because shells
16 were falling around. It was the first time I could
17 hear the infantry bursts of fire. I mean, it was all
18 new to us. I mean, we did not know who was firing
19 bullets and at whom. It took me quite some time, and
20 it lasted as long as it lasted to understand what was
21 going on.
22 Q. But, Mr. Katava, your neighbours who were at
23 the entrance there with you, what were they wearing?
24 A. They were all wearing civilian clothes,
1Q. You mean, whatever they happened to put on
2 that morning?
3 A. Well, yes. I mean, people who, of course,
4 got undressed in the evening, they put on something in
5 the morning. I guess it was the first thing they laid
6 their hands on.
7 Q. Do you remember what you were wearing?
8 A. Well, ordinarily I usually went to work, and
9 I must have been wearing either a suit or something. I
10 don't know.
11 Q. Did you have any kind of a uniform such as
12 one could see being worn by the military at the time?
13 A. No.
14 Q. At that entrance did you have any weapons,
15 any personal weapons to use them for protection, for
16 your safety?
17 A. There was a hunting rifle; a shotgun, a
18 two-barrelled one. It was -- a neighbour, I think from
19 the entrance number 6, brought it, Stojkovic. I don't
20 know who it belonged to. There were six or seven
22 Q. So you only had this shotgun at this
24 A. I think that another neighbour, Krizanac, as
25 we talked there he said, "Well, I've got a gun." When
1he pulled it out, that pistol had been conserved and we
2 all laughed at it because it was unusable.
3 Q. Mr. Katava, do you know where the village of
4 Ahmici is in relation to Vitez? How far is it?
5 A. Well, by the road towards the Lasva it is
6 about -- well, it is the main road. It could be about
7 five kilometres, slightly more perhaps.
8 Q. Prior to 1993, that is, prior to the 16th of
9 April, had you ever been to Ahmici? Were you there on
10 that day or did you go there afterwards?
11 A. No. I have never been. Until the end of the
12 war and after the war, I was there. I was there last
13 year and only once. It was because of Mirjan and Zoran
14 Kupreskic's mother, to marry them.
15 Q. If we're referring to the 16th of April,
16 1993, and if we are -- if we now consider what was
17 going on, as you saw it from your entrance or they were
18 watching it from your entrance, was it possible to go
19 to Ahmici and come back or just go there without
20 exposing oneself to a major risk, to a major danger?
21 Was it possible to walk there, to go there on foot?
22 A. No.
23 Q. And by car?
24 A. Oh, I don't know. I don't know. I don't
25 know if it was possible, but a normal man wouldn't do
2 Q. Mr. Katava, now I should like to mention a
3 few names and we'll ask you to tell me if you know them
4 and since when. Do you know Drago Josipovic?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Since when?
7 A. I met Drago in early 1997.
8 Q. That was the first time you met him?
9 A. Well, I knew his name before that, but I
10 never met him until the beginning of '97. I knew his
12 Q. So today in the courtroom you could identify
13 Drago Josipovic, could you? Can you tell us, where is
14 Drago Josipovic?
15 A. The first, the second, the third. That
16 handsome moustachioed man.
17 MR. PAVKOVIC: Thank you. For the record, we
18 may note that the witness identified Drago Josipovic.
19 Q. Now, tell me, do you know Stipo Alilovic,
20 called Brko?
21 A. I knew Brko -- I mean, it is difficult to say
22 whether one knows or doesn't know one because the man
23 has been known for a long time, but I knew him as a man
24 who lived in Vitez and I liked him because he had a
25 very pretty daughter who was some three or four years
1old and they often took walks around the time and I saw
2 them, and he was -- he had quite an unusual
3 appearance. For a while, I was in a hostelry, then he
4 kept a custom jewellery shop, but as I know -- I mean,
5 we were just acquaintances, not more than that. We
6 would say "Hello" to one another when we met.
7 Q. When was it that you saw Stipo Alilovic in
8 Vitez for the last time, before the second conflict
9 with the Muslims?
10 A. No, no, I can't tell you. I can't really
11 give you a date.
12 Q. Do you know if, at that time, Stipo Alilovic
13 lived in Ahmici -- sorry, sorry. A slip of the
14 tongue. Did he live in Vitez at that time?
15 A. At what time?
16 Q. I mean the first half of 1993.
17 A. No, later -- well, right. We learned in
18 Easter 1992, I don't remember when it was, end of
19 April, beginning of May, Stipo Alilovic, we knew then
20 that he had left the territory of the former Yugoslavia
21 for keeps. I don't know whether it was because he had
22 learned that he was suffering from cancer or for some
23 other reason. But I also know that, for a while, he
24 lived in Austria, then he came and lived in Amsterdam
25 where he received treatment and then eventually died.
1Q. But can one then conclude that in the former
2 half of 1993, Stipo Alilovic was not in the territory
3 of Vitez and the neighbouring area?
4 A. No, he was not there.
5 Q. Mr. Katava, do you know Zeljo Livancic? Do
6 you know anything about him?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Do you know Zarko Kristo?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Does the name Karlo Cerkez tell you anything?
11 A. No.
12 Q. And, finally, do you know Vlado Santic?
13 A. Yes, I do know Vlado -- well, I've known him
14 some 15, 16, 17 years maybe.
15 Q. Were you friends? Did you visit one another?
16 A. No. We met when he moved into a flat or,
17 rather, we had to move out my friend and his family and
18 he was moving in, and that was when we met this friend
19 of mine who was his commander in the police, and he had
20 just completed his house, he was moving from that flat
21 into that house, and Vlado was given this flat by the
22 police and that was when he moved in that we met for
23 the first time.
24 Q. How long ago could it have been?
25 A. I believe some 16 or 17 years. And after
1that, we would just greet one another when we met. We
2 did not visit one another.
3 Q. Do you know -- and in the beginning you said
4 that you were a member of the electoral commission and
5 thus you had the lists of voters. Were you aware
6 whether, in Vitez and around Vitez, there were other
7 people of the same name of Vlado Santic?
8 A. Yes, that surname is quite common in our
9 area, and these people are not even related; different
10 lineages, really. I mean, Santic is a common surname
11 there. And secondly, as for the first name, one never
12 knows what name has been put on the birth certificate,
13 whether Vlado or Vladimir, and it often depends on what
14 the mother called the child for the first time, whether
15 Vlado, Vladimir, or whatever, and it is usually the
16 same thing.
17 So there is a Vlado Santic and I believe
18 they're even -- that we are peers, more or less, that
19 we are of the same age.
20 Q. Can you see Vlado Santic in the courtroom,
21 Vlado Santic?
22 A. Yes. He is the first one with the earphones
23 and very little hair.
24 MR. PAVKOVIC: So we can put in the record
25 that the witness identified Vladimir Santic in the
2 Q. Mr. Katava, when I asked you if you knew
3 people that I mentioned, you said that some of them you
4 did not know at all, that some you knew but, in the
5 former half of 1993, they were not in Vitez and the
6 surrounding area, but with those persons that you do
7 know more or less, were you together with them in some
8 organisation? You told us you were not a member of any
9 political party, but were you a member of some public
10 organisation or something? Did you socialise
11 somewhere? Did you meet somewhere?
12 A. No, no. But now that I met the brothers
13 Kupreskic, I feel sorry that I missed being in their
14 company more.
15 Q. So we can infer that on this day, on the 16th
16 of April, '93, you could not be together on any
18 A. No.
19 Q. Mr. Katava, were you a member of the HVO?
20 A. No. But to make it quite clear, I must say
21 that the war in Vitez did not begin on the 16th of
22 April, as some are trying to say, it began much
23 earlier; and during that war, a front line was set up
24 to defend against the Serb aggression from Vlasic
25 and -- I'm referring to 1992 -- and that was a line
1that was kept as a defence line.
2 There was the hunting society which, of
3 course, took part in this, and again the hunting
4 association, I don't know who decided it, but it was
5 decided that the hunting association should cover to
6 prevent an assumed danger of assault from a part which
7 is called Poljane, there was a settlement of summer
8 cottages, and from this Poljane is a special purpose
9 plant, that is, a plant manufacturing explosives, and
10 so as to at least try to thwart any plans of capturing
11 it, the hunting association was up there both to
12 protect the hunting grounds and just to be seen, to
13 make a presence. Not to prevent any serious onslaught
14 with the hunting weapons but simply to be there. And
15 that was the latter half of 1992. And I was with that
16 unit, and every three or four weeks, I would be with
17 that unit because I had my hunting weapons, those that
18 I used to have then, that is, before that, and then --
19 and with this hunting weapon, I used to be up there.
20 Q. Mr. Katava, tell us, you deviated when I
21 asked about the HVO but you said-- you spoke about the
22 hunting association, but it was not a part of the HVO
23 at the time you tell us about. But at that time, was
24 there anything that was organised as far as you know?
25 A. As far as I know, nothing was really properly
1organised. Let me be quite honest. I wish it were
2 because the number of victims would have been much
3 smaller. Unfortunately, there was nobody to do that.
4 Vitez has always been a transit place. People didn't
5 want to go and join the army, people didn't want to
6 become officers in the army, people are -- I don't
7 know. I mean, there are simply people like that.
8 Q. And what about the second conflict; was there
9 mobilisation in Vitez?
10 A. What conflict are you referring to?
11 Q. I'm referring to the second conflict of the
12 16th of April, '92 -- '93.
13 A. I'm sorry, I don't know the terminology that
14 you are using.
15 Q. I'm referring to the -- we know what we are
16 talking about.
17 A. Will you please repeat the question?
18 Q. My question was, when the second conflict
19 broke out, was there any mobilisation? Were people
20 called up in Vitez and environs?
21 A. Mobilisation -- mobilisation came later.
22 Q. Were you mobilised?
23 A. Yes, after the 20th of April, but was it the
24 20th, the 21st, or the 22nd, I don't know, one of those
25 days, because seven days after the conflict broke out
1on that scale, after a conflict of that scale, nobody
2 could be spared mobilisation regardless. I call them
3 children because there were children 16 years of age to
4 elderly people, I mean, those who barely were able to
5 walk, they were all mobilised.
6 Q. So you say you were mobilised on the 20th of
8 A. Well, it could have been the 21st. I don't
9 know. One of those three days.
10 Q. Where were you between the 16th of April and
11 the 20th or whatever?
12 A. I was all the time -- I was practically
13 incessantly at this entrance with a couple of people
14 who were with me there, from that teacher, Gucanin, who
15 had heart trouble. As a matter of fact, he was simply
16 obese. But one could not postpone it anymore.
17 Everybody had to be given an assignment to defend the
18 household that -- everybody was given an assignment.
19 Little Zoran I think was the youngest one and yet he
20 went to the front line on the third day and that was
22 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, I have a set of
23 questions, it is not too long, but perhaps it would be
24 better if we adjourn now and then moved on to that
25 particular set of questions tomorrow?
1JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. We will adjourn now,
2 and tomorrow we will start at 9.00 and we have so stop
3 at 1.00, whereas on Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday, we
4 will sit until 1.15. So we adjourn now until
6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
7 1.30 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,
8 the 6th day of July, 1999, at 9.00 a.m.