1. 1 Monday, 5th July 1999

    2 (Open session)

    3 (The accused entered court)

    4 (The witness entered court)

    5 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

    6 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-95-16-T,

    7 the Prosecutor versus Zoran Kupreskic, Mirjan

    8 Kupreskic, Vlatko Kupreskic, Drago Josipovic,

    9 Dragan Papic and Vladimir Santic.

    10 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Good morning. I

    11 gather we start with a character witness for

    12 Mr. Josipovic. Mrs. Milica Vukadinovic, could you

    13 please stand and make the solemn declaration?

    14 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

    15 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

    16 truth.

    17 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Counsel Susak.

    18 MR. SUSAK: Thank you, Mr. President. I

    19 should also like to inform you that I have given up

    20 Slavica Cickovic who was the second character witness,

    21 because I went along with the advice of the Chamber.

    22 The statement -- the testimonies of these two witnesses

    23 would overlap, in fact, and I decided that this one

    24 witness would be enough.

    25 WITNESS: MILICA VUKADINOVIC



  2. 1Examined by Mr. Susak:

    2 Q. Good morning, Mrs. Vukadinovic.

    3 A. Good morning.

    4 Q. Could you please tell the court your name,

    5 where do you work, who do you live with, where do you

    6 live?

    7 A. I'm Milica Vukadinovic. I live with my three

    8 children, underage. At present I work for Herzegovina

    9 Osiguranje, which is an insurance company in Vitez.

    10 Q. Before you got that job where did you work

    11 before that? Will you please list all the jobs that

    12 you held as of 1991?

    13 A. Since 1983 I worked for Sintevit, socially

    14 owned company until '92. In '92 I went to work for the

    15 police station in Vitez and I was there until '94. In

    16 1994 I was appointed the holder of the health centre in

    17 Vitez. Then in 1994, to this day, I've been working as

    18 the head of the subsidiary of Herzegovina Osiguranje,

    19 which is Herzegovina insurance.

    20 Q. You worked for this Sintevit company in

    21 Vitez. Was Drago Josipovic also working there?

    22 A. Yes, Drago Josipovic worked for the same

    23 company, Sintevit. He worked there at the same time as

    24 I did or, rather, he worked there before me.

    25 Q. Do you know Drago Josipovic only from work or



  3. 1have you socialised outside work?

    2 A. I know Drago Josipovic both from work and

    3 privately.

    4 Q. Could you tell us what was his attitude

    5 toward work at the Sintevit?

    6 A. His attitude to work, he was an exemplary

    7 worker. He always performed all his duties in an

    8 exemplary manner.

    9 Q. In other words, he did --

    10 A. he was very industrious, never any

    11 disciplinary sanctions were taken against him. He was

    12 always regularly at his job, attended his workplace

    13 regularly.

    14 Q. So he was an exemplary worker?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. Were both Muslims and Croats employed by the

    17 Sintevit?

    18 A. Yes. In our company there were about 300

    19 people employed. There were Muslims and Croats and

    20 Serbs. On the average, about 80 per cent --

    21 Q. Will you please slow down because of the

    22 interpreters?

    23 A. On the average, about 80 per cent were

    24 Muslims.

    25 Q. And you mean about 20 per cent Croats and



  4. 1Serbs, is that so?

    2 A. Croats and Serbs, yes.

    3 Q. Will you tell us was Drago Josipovic involved

    4 in some other activities but work?

    5 A. Well, he was a trade unionist. He was

    6 appointed there. He was a member of the commission for

    7 labour relations, and he was also a member of the

    8 Workers' Council. Those were the self-managment bodies

    9 under the then system.

    10 Q. Was he also the chairman of the executive

    11 board of the union?

    12 A. Yes, he was also the vice-chairman and the

    13 chairman. Subsequently there was also the action

    14 conference which covered three enterprises and he was

    15 also a member of the action conference.

    16 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, may I ask the

    17 usher to show this document to the witness, please?

    18 Q. This is a certificate. Is it authentic? It

    19 was signed by the general manager.

    20 THE INTERPRETER: Could it be placed on the

    21 ELMO for the interpreters, please? Could it be placed

    22 on the ELMO?

    23 MR. SUSAK:

    24 Q. It says Vitezit-- would you please read it

    25 out? Do you think this is correct, that Drago



  5. 1Josipovic was engaged in all these activities?

    2 A. Yes. I fully corroborate this certificate,

    3 which is also duly stamped. Yes, Drago Josipovic did

    4 perform all these duties in the company.

    5 THE REGISTRAR: This is D39/4.

    6 A. I didn't get the first word.

    7 MR. SUSAK:

    8 Q. No. It's all right. Now, you told us that

    9 he was a very industrious worker. On what terms was he

    10 with his Muslim fellow workers?

    11 A. Very correct. Most of the Muslims would

    12 say -- said that he was a moderate man and nominated

    13 him for all these activities.

    14 Q. You mean all these fora?

    15 A. Yes. They believed he would take adequate

    16 decisions, I mean, in terms of improving the working

    17 conditions and the organisation.

    18 Q. You told us that about 80 per cent of the

    19 employees were Muslims in that enterprise. What does

    20 that mean then if he was elected to all these fora by

    21 all these Muslims?

    22 A. Well, it means that they appreciated him

    23 highly and that he was a part of the normal -- of the

    24 regular life that we led there.

    25 Q. You told us briefly how Drago Josipovic was



  6. 1at work, but I also asked you if you knew him off of

    2 the working hours and you told us you did. Do you know

    3 where his house is?

    4 A. I do. It is in the hamlet of Santici.

    5 Q. Do you know who else is in this house?

    6 A. Drago Josipovic lived with his mother, with

    7 his wife and two children.

    8 Q. What did his mother look like?

    9 A. His mother was very old. She recently died.

    10 Q. Was she healthy?

    11 A. Well, in terms of health, like any person of

    12 advanced age, but she was at home. She led a regular

    13 life.

    14 Q. Did Drago Josipovic have something to do with

    15 children who went to school?

    16 A. Yes, of course. We talked about that often.

    17 He did take care of his children, of his family, of his

    18 home.

    19 Q. Did he spend most of the time at home or

    20 outside? I mean, he had two children.

    21 A. Drago did take care of his children, and by

    22 large, he spent his time at home or around home.

    23 Q. Did he perhaps have a house garden or

    24 something like that, or some livestock?

    25 A. Yes. He does have a house with a small house



  7. 1garden. They have a small farm, and they also had a

    2 cow, some hens, and such like, and a vegetable garden.

    3 Q. So you said that he looked after his two

    4 minor children who went to school. What kind of care

    5 did he is show for his children, from what you saw?

    6 A. Well, he saw that they would have a meal

    7 after they came from school. He helped their mother

    8 cook meals for them. He was there to meet them after

    9 school. He saw that they changed clothes and other

    10 things that had to do with children.

    11 Q. What was the attitude of Drago Josipovic and

    12 his family towards the Muslims who are his neighbours?

    13 A. Yes. I also know that. They were very

    14 considerate, and Drago even recommended his neighbour

    15 Islam Ahmic to come and do the parquet in my house,

    16 because they were on very good terms and he did things

    17 for him. They got along very well from what I could

    18 see. Decent behaviour, invitations to come and have a

    19 cup of coffee, and good neighbourly relations between

    20 them and the Muslim family -- I mean, from the

    21 Josipovic and the Muslim family.

    22 Q. You mentioned Islam Ahmic. What is his

    23 ethnicity?

    24 A. Islam Ahmic is a Muslim.

    25 Q. Would you know who were his neighbours? Who



  8. 1were other Muslim neighbours of his?

    2 A. I knew a number of people because we went to

    3 school together. Rahim Ahmic, Alaga Ahmic. They were

    4 my schoolfellows.

    5 Q. What were the relations between Drago and his

    6 neighbours? Do you know Fahrudin Ahmic, for instance?

    7 A. Yes, they were on very close terms. I did

    8 not meet him particularly, but I heard from what he

    9 told me when he would be there.

    10 Q. What you are telling us about Drago

    11 Josipovic, that you knew him at work. Yes, of course,

    12 naturally you worked there, but after working hours did

    13 you ever come closer to his house? How is it that you

    14 know him after working hours? Could you tell us

    15 something about that?

    16 A. Well, I would come near his house helping my

    17 sister-in-law.

    18 Q. Will you please -- what kind of a

    19 sister-in-law?

    20 A. Sister-in-law is my husband's sister. She

    21 had a plot of land. She had some private property and

    22 we helped them cultivate it, whatever they -- the crops

    23 they grew, that is, maize, potatoes, vegetable garden,

    24 and such like.

    25 Q. Right. So you used to go there. Do you



  9. 1remember the first conflict on the 20th of October,

    2 1992? Do you remember that?

    3 A. In 1991 --

    4 Q. No, in 1992.

    5 A. Oh, 1992.

    6 Q. Did you hear anything about that?

    7 A. Yes, I did hear about it. I was at home on

    8 sick leave, and I heard that a conflict had broken out

    9 but I wouldn't know any details. I only heard about

    10 this and I had no opportunity of learning anything more

    11 about that.

    12 Q. What did you hear?

    13 A. I heard that in the lower area a conflict had

    14 broken out, that there was some unrest, that there was

    15 some gunfire.

    16 Q. Were any structures damaged about Drago

    17 Josipovic?

    18 A. I think I heard that mostly structures like

    19 stables were damaged, some houses were on fire, but I

    20 didn't hear much about that.

    21 Q. Right. Was Drago Josipovic a member of the

    22 HDZ? Do you know that?

    23 A. I don't think that Drago was a member of the

    24 HDZ.

    25 Q. Do you know Slavica Josipovic?



  10. 1A. Drago Josipovic's wife. I do know her.

    2 MR. SUSAK: Mr. Usher, would you please show

    3 the photocopy of this photograph to the witness?

    4 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D40/4.

    5 MR. SUSAK:

    6 Q. So you have before you this photocopy of the

    7 passport with the photograph of Slavica Josipovic.

    8 Mrs. Vukadinovic, you have it over there on the ELMO.

    9 Would you please look at it there? You can see it

    10 better there. Who is this?

    11 A. This is Slavica Josipovic from Santici, Drago

    12 Josipovic's wife.

    13 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, we have been

    14 referring to Mrs. Slavica Josipovic all the time, that

    15 she turned up at the press conference, and there was

    16 transmitted by Busovaca TV. I would like to suggest to

    17 show the videotape to the witness. This is D34/2. I

    18 do not think it will take a long time. I should only

    19 like to show the beginning and just to have the witness

    20 testify to it and then tender this photograph into

    21 evidence.

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: All right.

    23 (Videotape played)

    24 MR. SUSAK: Can we stop here, please? Can we

    25 stop here, right at the beginning? Stop right at the



  11. 1beginning to ask the witness if she recognises Slavica

    2 Josipovic, and so can we show the tape, the very

    3 beginning, so the witness can see if she recognises the

    4 person?

    5 (Videotape played)

    6 MR. SUSAK: That's it.

    7 Q. This person that you see in this photograph,

    8 is that Slavica Josipovic or not?

    9 A. No, this is not Slavica Josipovic. I can

    10 affirm that.

    11 MR. SUSAK: Thank you. Do I not need this

    12 videotape any more.

    13 Q. I shall move on with my questions.

    14 Mrs. Vukadinovic, you told us that you came to your

    15 sister-in-law, that is your husband's sister, to

    16 Santici?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. Would you see Drago Josipovic at home often

    19 or seldom?

    20 A. He was at home mostly. Often.

    21 Q. How did he go to work?

    22 A. He went to work by the company bus. It was

    23 organised by the company.

    24 Q. Did he ever drive a private car?

    25 A. I never saw him drive a private car.



  12. 1Q. And where did Slavica Josipovic work?

    2 A. Slavica Josipovic worked in the municipal

    3 administration.

    4 Q. And after that? I mean after 1993?

    5 A. I believe she worked for Rajkovic, a private

    6 company, and during the war, she worked for the

    7 humanitarian cooperative, Mother and Child.

    8 Q. Will you tell us, on what terms did she work,

    9 more or less?

    10 A. Oh, she worked too much. She was just too

    11 active at work.

    12 Q. But did she have any time to devote herself

    13 to her home as Drago Josipovic did?

    14 A. No. She is a different kind of person. She

    15 is always moving about, she is always busy, and she was

    16 very socially and publicly active, she worked in the

    17 company and did all sorts of other things rather than

    18 be at home and engage in household chores.

    19 Q. Did Drago and Slavica Josipovic have a car?

    20 A. Yes, they did have a car. I think it was a

    21 Yugo make, and Slavica took it to go to work.

    22 Q. Did she use it outside working hours?

    23 A. Yes, she did. She always drove it.

    24 Q. So she was very busy and she moved about very

    25 much, and Drago Josipovic did not.



  13. 1A. No, Drago did not go out much, but she drove

    2 the car.

    3 Q. You mentioned that Drago Josipovic had a

    4 positive attitude to Muslims?

    5 A. Yes. He was a very positive individual

    6 indeed in his relations with all people, with Muslims

    7 and Serbs and Croats.

    8 Q. Did Muslims respect him, bearing in mind that

    9 they elected him to union bodies and then to the

    10 Workers' Council?

    11 A. Yes, of course he was respected, and he was

    12 tolerant in his work both in those fora, in those

    13 public fora, and at work.

    14 Q. Did you ever think that Drago hated Muslims?

    15 A. No. He cannot hate anyone.

    16 Q. We shall move on to another subject but for

    17 one question. Some witnesses stated here in court

    18 that, on the 16th of March -- of April, '93, early in

    19 the morning, that is, at half past 5.00, left his home

    20 in the direction of Rovna. Would you know if and when

    21 Drago Josipovic left his home and how in the direction

    22 of Rovna?

    23 A. All I know about these details --

    24 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, I must object to

    25 this question because I did not know until now that the



  14. 1witness was present in Ahmici on the 16th of April and

    2 could tell us anything about what happened in Ahmici on

    3 the 16th of April. So I do object to this question. I

    4 do not think she can tell us that.

    5 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, the Prosecutor is

    6 right. This witness was presented as a character

    7 witness, not as a fact witness, so if you could please

    8 refrain from asking questions about the 16th of April?

    9 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, you said that the

    10 Chamber could, at its discretion, decide that if it

    11 would be in the interests of justice, we can ask some

    12 supplementary questions. This is, however, related to

    13 Josipovic's character, that is, whether he agreed to

    14 participate in fighting or whether he refused to. So I

    15 believe my question was a natural, a logical one. How

    16 did Drago Josipovic behave that way, how did he act

    17 that morning, if she had heard. I only asked her what

    18 she had heard. I never asked her or intimated that she

    19 had been in Ahmici that morning, and I think that my

    20 question was proper.

    21 JUDGE CASSESE: I'm so sorry, I would like to

    22 ask you to move on, to move on.

    23 MR. SUSAK: I will rephrase it.

    24 Q. Do you know if Drago Josipovic took part in

    25 the slaying of Muslims and destruction of their houses



  15. 1in view of the kind of man he was?

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Susak, of course you

    3 cannot put this question. This has nothing to do with

    4 the character of Mr. Josipovic.

    5 MR. SUSAK: Then I will ask just one more

    6 question.

    7 Q. You said that you came near Drago Josipovic's

    8 house, that is, to your husband's sister's house, and

    9 when you would be there, would you be afraid if you

    10 would see any uniformed men moving in the direction of

    11 Novi Travnik, that means how did Drago Josipovic's

    12 family feel?

    13 A. "At that time." What time do you mean?

    14 Q. '93. I mean the time prior to the second

    15 conflict.

    16 A. At that time, I did not go in that direction

    17 and I seldom went there because the immediate danger of

    18 war had already been proclaimed and a state of war.

    19 Q. So who used that road; will you just tell us

    20 that? Who held it?

    21 A. Well, this is the main road. This is the

    22 main communication, and at that time, it was regulated

    23 by military police.

    24 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I have here a list

    25 of the HDZ from the 18th of September, '91 until the



  16. 18th of April, '92. It has been submitted to the

    2 Chamber and to us, and it is assumed that the persons

    3 listed here are HDZ members. So can this list be shown

    4 to this witness because I shall like to ask her some

    5 questions about it?

    6 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. Susak, could you please

    7 remind us of the number that this exhibit had, the

    8 list?

    9 MR. SUSAK: This is 41. This is going to be

    10 41.

    11 JUDGE MAY: No, it's Exhibit 353.

    12 MR. SUSAK: But the Prosecutor has already

    13 tendered that.

    14 JUDGE MAY: Exhibit 353.

    15 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President --

    16 MR. SUSAK: Your Honour, no. This is another

    17 list.

    18 MR. TERRIER: This is another list. Three

    19 hundred fifty-three is a list of HVO members, and this

    20 is a list of HDZ members during the period of time

    21 prior to April '92, and we gave it to the Defence

    22 because we thought it might be of some help to them,

    23 but I do not think that it is already on the records.

    24 THE REGISTRAR: This is Prosecutor's Exhibit

    25 371.



  17. 1MR. SUSAK:

    2 Q. Mrs. Vukodinovic, would you please take this

    3 list in your hand, but could you move over so that it

    4 can also be seen on the ELMO and you can look at it.

    5 Don't look at the monitor, please, but look at the list

    6 itself. Could you move your chair so that you can do

    7 that?

    8 Could you please turn to page 1? Could you

    9 tell me what the title means, "Participants in the

    10 Armed Resistance to Aggression"?

    11 A. When it says "Participants in the Armed

    12 Resistance to Aggression," these are mainly men who are

    13 of military age, who are able-bodied and able to take

    14 part in defence.

    15 Q. Very well. Could you tell me what it says on

    16 the left, at the head?

    17 A. It says "Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Croatian

    18 Community of Herceg-Bosna, the Municipal Head Office in

    19 Vitez."

    20 Q. So this is a list of the Vitez municipality

    21 head office?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. On the right-hand side, it says "Basic

    24 Branch," and then there is a place name.

    25 A. Yes. This refers to the territory to



  18. 1which --

    2 Q. The local commune?

    3 A. Yes, the local commune belongs to.

    4 Q. On this list and the other lists, is there

    5 any mention of the HDZ?

    6 A. No, not on this page.

    7 Q. Would you please tell us where you are from?

    8 A. I was born in Mosunj, the village of Mali

    9 Mosunj. I married in Kruscica.

    10 Q. So you married in Kruscica where you live?

    11 A. Yes, I live in Kruscica.

    12 Q. And you were born in Mali Mosunj?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. And you were employed in Vitez?

    15 A. Yes, I was employed in Vitez the whole time.

    16 Q. Since the list shows the names of people who

    17 were, as you said, able-bodied and of military age, I

    18 would like to ask you about the people from Kruscica,

    19 Mali Mosunj, and the centre of Vitez because these are

    20 people you know, taking into account the fact that you

    21 were born there or that you lived there or worked

    22 there. Could you please find the village of Mali

    23 Mosunj here and the persons listed from that village

    24 and column 11?

    25 A. I found it.



  19. 1Q. Have you found it?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. What name is written here? We said column

    4 number 11.

    5 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Susak, do you mean

    6 page 11?

    7 MR. SUSAK: Yes. The list is according to

    8 places. In the right-hand corner, at the top, is the

    9 name of the place.

    10 Q. Mrs. Vukodinovic, would you listen to me,

    11 please? Could you please look at the first page of the

    12 small format and find the column 11. It's page 39.

    13 Have you found it?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. What does column 11 say?

    16 A. Zigonjic Stipe Franjo.

    17 Q. So Franjo, son of Stipe Zigonjic. Was he a

    18 member of the HDZ?

    19 A. No, he was not a member of the HDZ, but he

    20 was able-bodied and able to take part in defence.

    21 Q. Would you please find the name Ivan Budimir

    22 on this -- number 11 on the big list; 111 but 11 on the

    23 big list, Mali Mosunj. It's near the end of the big

    24 list.

    25 A. He was a member of the HDZ. He was.



  20. 1Q. Would you please tell us who signed this

    2 list?

    3 A. The list was signed by all those who happened

    4 to be at home when the lists were drawn up.

    5 Q. Who was Ivan Budimir?

    6 A. Ivan Budimir was a personal friend of mine

    7 and an acquaintance.

    8 Q. Did he sign this list for Mali Mosunj?

    9 A. No, it's not his signature, it's the

    10 signature of his wife, Marija.

    11 Q. Why did his wife sign the list instead of

    12 him?

    13 A. Because he was not at home.

    14 Q. Do you know, in the village of Gacice, if you

    15 look at column 11 you can find the name Slavo

    16 Krizanovic. Have you found it? The village of

    17 Gacice.

    18 A. Can you tell me the page number?

    19 Q. It's column 7 on the little format, the small

    20 format.

    21 A. What page?

    22 Q. But --

    23 A. I found it. I found it.

    24 Q. Slavko Krizanovic. Was he on the list?

    25 JUDGE CASSESE: Could you tell us the page



  21. 1number? Do you know Susak, we don't have the page

    2 number.

    3 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, the Prosecutor did

    4 not number the pages, but it's page 34 on the small

    5 format.

    6 Thirty-nine you said? Could you please help

    7 me, because you have it in front of you. What page is

    8 it? It's 51. Page 51.

    9 Q. Could you please tell us who signed for

    10 Slavko Krizanovic?

    11 A. His wife Danica did.

    12 Q. Was he a member of the HDZ?

    13 A. Slavko is was not a member of the HDZ.

    14 Q. Why did his wife sign his name then?

    15 A. Because he wasn't at home.

    16 Q. We have now a block of last names which you

    17 will find easily. It's the municipality centre, the

    18 centre of Vitez. Could you please point out the names

    19 of people who are not members of the HDZ but whose

    20 names are on this list? It's for the centre of Vitez.

    21 It's in the middle of the small format. You

    22 found it.

    23 Could you please list, if you know, the

    24 people who are on this list? You can tell us the

    25 number. It begins with number 53.



  22. 1JUDGE CASSESE: Could you please, again, give

    2 us the page number?

    3 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, this is very

    4 confused because there are other numbers for every

    5 place. It's 74. It's page 74, but for this person

    6 it's number 74.

    7 A. This page shows the name of Marinko Katava

    8 from the centre Territorial Defence. He was not a

    9 member of the HDZ.

    10 MR. SUSAK:

    11 Q. Could you turn to the next page and could you

    12 tell us who else on this list was not an HDZ member?

    13 A. Denis Ajanovic.

    14 Q. What is he by nationality?

    15 A. His mother was a Serb and his father was a

    16 Muslim.

    17 Q. Who signed for him? Is this his signature?

    18 A. It was signed by his father, Nedzib

    19 Ajanovic.

    20 Q. Could you look at number 94 now?

    21 A. Niko Tihomir Josic.

    22 Q. Was he a member?

    23 A. He was not a member of the HDZ.

    24 Q. Who signed for him?

    25 A. His sister, Dragica Elek.



  23. 1Q. We are now going on to page 76. Would you

    2 look at number 113? Who is this?

    3 A. Desimir Skavo.

    4 Q. Rademko?

    5 A. Rademko, yes.

    6 Q. Was he a member of the HDZ?

    7 A. He was not a member of the HDZ.

    8 Q. What is he by nationality?

    9 A. He is a Serb.

    10 Q. Number 116.

    11 A. Dusko Bulajic.

    12 Q. Was he a member of the HDZ?

    13 A. He was not a member of the HDZ.

    14 Q. What is he by nationality?

    15 A. He's a Serb.

    16 Q. Now, to cut this short, let us just look at

    17 number 130.

    18 A. The name is Milan Subasic.

    19 Q. What is he by nationality?

    20 A. Milan Subasic, is a Serb.

    21 Q. Was he a member of the HDZ?

    22 A. No, he wasn't.

    23 Q. Could you tell us if this is his signature?

    24 A. Just a moment. Yes, he signed this.

    25 Q. Very well. What about Milenko Mirkovic?



  24. 1It's on page 77, number 141.

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. Was he a member of the HDZ?

    4 A. No.

    5 Q. Could you tell us who signed for him? Is

    6 this his signature? It doesn't say "Milenko."

    7 A. I think it was signed by Madam Ljilja.

    8 Q. He is a Serb by nationality?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. Then you have Predrag Todorovic. What is he

    11 by nationality?

    12 A. He was Serb by nationality.

    13 Q. Did he sign this himself? Is this his

    14 signature or is this a different name?

    15 A. No, it wasn't him. It was his wife.

    16 Q. And last -- we're still on the same page, 77,

    17 in column 146 or, rather, in line 146, Pero Knezic.

    18 What was he by nationality?

    19 A. He was a Serb.

    20 Q. Was he a member of the HDZ?

    21 A. No.

    22 Q. Could you tell me whether there were any

    23 Serbs in Vitez who were members of the HDZ?

    24 A. No, there weren't.

    25 Q. Why?



  25. 1A. Because they had the SDS party and most of

    2 them belonged to that party.

    3 Q. So they had their own ethnic party?

    4 A. Yes. They also had the SDP party in which

    5 most -- so most Serbs were either in the SDP or the

    6 SDS.

    7 Q. Could you tell us how this list was drawn up,

    8 if you know? You said that you're a lawyer.

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. So who drew up this list and in what way, if

    11 you know? I would like to draw your attention to the

    12 signatories, coordinator, commander, and the president

    13 of the branch of the HDZ. So do you know how this list

    14 was drawn up?

    15 A. Yes, I know how it was drawn up. At the

    16 initiative of the HDZ, the list was started in

    17 municipal head office. One of the members was from the

    18 HDZ. The second member was from the office for

    19 defence, and the third member of the group drawing up

    20 the list was someone who coordinated their work with

    21 the municipal head office and the defence office,

    22 because this had to do with the municipality.

    23 Q. So you want to tell us that these three

    24 signatories, the three people who drew up this list

    25 were the coordinator, the commander, and the head of



  26. 1the local branch. So there was one member of the HDZ,

    2 one representative of defence office, and the third one

    3 was a representative of the territory, of the -- so can

    4 you tell us what the role of the HDZ was here?

    5 A. The HDZ took the initiative in all this so

    6 that a list would be drawn up by territorial branches,

    7 because the HDZ organised itself along territorial

    8 lines. So that made it easier to get hold of

    9 information.

    10 Q. So they gave information to the office for

    11 defence.

    12 A. Yes, but I have to stress that only one of

    13 the people who did this was a member of the HDZ.

    14 Q. This was always the president of the local

    15 branch of the HDZ?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. I would now like to ask you -- you have seen

    18 the list and we have pointed out several persons who

    19 were not members of the HDZ, so I would now like to ask

    20 you the following: Were all the persons on this list

    21 members of the HDZ or were only some of them members of

    22 the HDZ?

    23 A. As I have already said, these are only

    24 persons who are able-bodied and of military age, and

    25 there are HDZ members among them.



  27. 1Q. The signatories who sign this list, if you

    2 look at page 1, did they know were signing -- were they

    3 aware of the fact that they were signing this as HDZ

    4 members or as participants in organised resistance?

    5 A. No. They knew they were signing only as

    6 participants of organised resistance to aggression.

    7 Q. So they did not know that this list was an

    8 HDZ list because it doesn't say that anywhere?

    9 A. But this is not an HDZ list.

    10 Q. So --

    11 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, Mr. Susak is

    12 asking the witness to say something about persons who

    13 are registered here, and a number of them. I do not

    14 think that these questions are particularly relevant,

    15 and he is either asking the witness something that he

    16 can say or, again, the witness should tell us under

    17 what circumstances and how did she learn about the

    18 conditions and about people who signed this list,

    19 otherwise, I do not think that we can come to a point.

    20 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Susak, I think the

    21 Prosecutor is right. So could you please either

    22 refrain from asking this question or rephrase it along

    23 the lines suggested by the Prosecutor?

    24 MR. SUSAK: Very well, Mr. President.

    25 Q. I'll ask what does "Local branch" mean here



  28. 1in the heading? What does it say here? There's a

    2 place name but is the HDZ mentioned anywhere here on

    3 the document?

    4 A. In the left-hand corner at the top, it just

    5 says "Local branch."

    6 Q. You mean the right-hand corner?

    7 A. Yes, I mean the right-hand corner.

    8 Q. Does it say that this is a local branch of

    9 the HDZ?

    10 A. No. No, it doesn't.

    11 Q. What does this mean? Is this the territorial

    12 principle, according to which information was provided

    13 for certain people from a certain territory for the

    14 needs of the defence office?

    15 A. Yes. So this is simply of territorial

    16 importance. It shows where these people are, to which

    17 territory they belong.

    18 Q. Did HDZ members have documents showing that

    19 they were HDZ members?

    20 A. Yes, they did.

    21 Q. If they had been listed as HDZ members, would

    22 the number of the document have been entered in here?

    23 A. Yes, of course. It's logical.

    24 Q. Another question: At that time, in 1991 and

    25 1992, did the Croats know or, rather, did you know that



  29. 1in 1993 there was going to be a conflict between the

    2 Muslims and the Croats?

    3 A. At that time, no one thought there might be a

    4 conflict between the Croats and the Muslims.

    5 Q. So on this list we see that the list is

    6 participants in organised resistance to aggression.

    7 Every page is the same. Could you look at page 1? Is

    8 this what people signed, "Participants in organised

    9 assistance to aggression?"

    10 A. Yes. Mostly they signed this.

    11 Q. This has been delivered to us by the

    12 Prosecution as a cover page, and it says "HDZ," from

    13 the period of a certain date to -- from the 18th of

    14 September, 1991, to the 8th of April, 1992.

    15 What does this mean?

    16 A. This was all prepared for the Vitez defence

    17 office, and this shows that one of the people drawing

    18 up this list was an HDZ member, because the initiative

    19 came from HDZ members to complete the job faster and to

    20 complete the organisation by territorial branches.

    21 Q. These HDZ territorial branches, did they have

    22 the best information because other authorities were not

    23 functioning considering the war?

    24 A. Well, considering there was a state of

    25 immediate threat of war, the HDZ had the best



  30. 1territorial organisation and that is why this activity

    2 was started, according to the territorial branches.

    3 Q. Do you know, at the railway station, which is

    4 a part of Vitez, one of the people who signed this list

    5 is Dragan Strbac. Can you tell me who he was?

    6 A. Dragan Strbac was working in the Civil

    7 Defence, cooperating with the Defence office, or,

    8 rather, this was part of the Defence Office of Vitez.

    9 Q. It means that Dragan Strbac was a

    10 coordinator. Do you know of any other instance when

    11 coordinators turned up and they worked for the defence

    12 office?

    13 A. There is also Zdravko Bosnjak who still works

    14 for the Defence Office in Vitez.

    15 Q. Did he also sign as a coordinator?

    16 A. Both as a coordinator or as a member,

    17 depending on where he worked.

    18 Q. As three persons invariably signed these

    19 lists, the coordinator, representative of the basic

    20 branch of the HDZ, were they always HDZ members or

    21 not?

    22 A. We have the chairman of the basic branch. He

    23 was also the president of the HDZ for this basic

    24 branch.

    25 Q. And the other two coordinators?



  31. 1A. They did not have to be members of the HDZ.

    2 They be could simply activists of the Civil Defence or

    3 the Defence Office in Vitez.

    4 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I have no more

    5 questions. I should also like to tender into evidence

    6 D39 and D40.

    7 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Any objection?

    8 No objection. They are admitted into evidence.

    9 Mr. Terrier?

    10 MR. TERRIER: Thank you, Mr. President.

    11 Cross-examined by Mr. Terrier:

    12 Q. Good morning, Madam. My name is Franck

    13 Terrier, and I represent the Prosecution. I would like

    14 to ask you several questions on the basis of your

    15 testimony.

    16 First I should like to ask you if you are

    17 related to Dragan Vukodinovic, who was the president of

    18 the Vitez HDZ.

    19 A. Dragan Vukodinovic is my late husband.

    20 Q. Can you confirm that he was a member of the

    21 Vitez HDZ?

    22 A. Yes, I confirm that he was a member of the

    23 Vitez HDZ.

    24 Q. And you yourself, were you a member of the

    25 HDZ party during the period concerned, that is, in '91,



  32. 1'92, and '93?

    2 A. I was not a member of the HDZ or any other

    3 political party.

    4 Q. Is it absurd to think that even if not a

    5 member of the HDZ, you nevertheless were very

    6 interested in the work of this organisation because you

    7 could offer us very accurate information about the

    8 conditions under which this list was compiled?

    9 Mr. Susak has an objection.

    10 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I abide by your

    11 written instructions. I think that the Prosecution has

    12 now gone beyond the examination-in-chief, because

    13 during the examination-in-chief, I never mentioned

    14 Mrs. Vukodinovic's husband.

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: But the question has nothing

    16 to do with the testimony, that is, the position of the

    17 witness in the HDZ. If she knew, if she had

    18 information, even if she was not a member of the HDZ,

    19 she nevertheless evidently knew, had information about

    20 the organisation, about the functioning of that party,

    21 so I think the question is pertinent.

    22 MR. TERRIER:

    23 Q. Madam, how did you learn about the internal

    24 organisation of the HDZ?

    25 A. Well, it was like this: I was a direct



  33. 1member of the election committee and I had all the

    2 information related to the elections of '92 accessible

    3 to me so I didn't go into that. I was not biased, I

    4 did not support any of these parties, I was not

    5 interested in any -- particularly any detail regarding

    6 any party active in the Vitez territory.

    7 Q. A few moments ago, in answer to Mr. Susak's

    8 question, you told us who was a member of the HDZ and

    9 who was not a member of the HDZ on this list and under

    10 what conditions this list was compiled, so apparently

    11 you know very well how the HDZ in Vitez worked, not

    12 only how it worked but also who were its members.

    13 So my question is: How could you acquire

    14 this particular knowledge that you shared with us a few

    15 moments ago?

    16 A. I did not have to gather that particular

    17 knowledge anywhere because I live and work in Vitez and

    18 I was, as of the beginning, informed about the

    19 situation in Vitez as a member of the election

    20 commission.

    21 Q. Yes, Madam, but you just told us that this

    22 election -- that this commission did not give or have

    23 any particular information about the functioning, about

    24 the workings of any particular party.

    25 A. Right, any party.



  34. 1Q. Nevertheless, you can tell us, for instance,

    2 that Franjo Zigonjic and others were not members of the

    3 HDZ. So in what way did you learn that?

    4 A. Because I only mentioned the names of people

    5 I know personally.

    6 Q. Your husband, did he hold office in the HDZ?

    7 A. Until '98, he did not.

    8 Q. Were you related to Perica Vukodinovic?

    9 A. Through my marriage.

    10 Q. Could you please explain what you mean?

    11 A. They are my husband's relations.

    12 Q. I ask you because a witness who testified

    13 here on the 11th of February, '98 [sic], a Defence

    14 witness, mentioned the name of Perica Vukodinovic as

    15 implicated in the murder of Samir Trako in Vitez in May

    16 1992, but you are not personally related to this

    17 individual, are you?

    18 A. Whom do you mean, Perica Vukodinovic or

    19 Samir?

    20 Q. Perica Vukodinovic.

    21 A. Well, I know him rather well.

    22 Q. What do you know about the incident with

    23 Samir that I mentioned?

    24 A. Very little.

    25 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, this is really



  35. 1going beyond the framework of the examination-in-chief.

    2 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, yes, that is

    3 quite true, but nevertheless it is very difficult to

    4 know what are the boundaries of the

    5 examination-in-chief because what he was asking had

    6 nothing to do with examination-in-chief before.

    7 But I shall move on to another question, and

    8 I hope that the witness will be able to tell us -- I

    9 hope that the witness will be able to give us some

    10 information about this incident, but nevertheless ...

    11 Q. Madam, I believe you can tell us if Drago

    12 Josipovic was a member of the HDZ, as far as you know?

    13 A. No.

    14 Q. You seem to have closely read this list.

    15 Does Drago Josipovic figure in it?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. Could you tell us the page -- could you

    18 indicate the page -- oh, it is --

    19 A. Yes, if I look at it, because they were

    20 compiled per branch offices, that is, per territory,

    21 and I can say that this was the territory of Santici.

    22 Q. Will you please tell us the page number?

    23 A. Page 19. Forty-five. He's under number 45.

    24 Q. Thank you. And this signatory who signed for

    25 that name, is that Drago Josipovic's signature? Was it



  36. 1signed by Drago Josipovic as far as you can tell us?

    2 A. Yes, this is his signature.

    3 Q. The presence of Drago Josipovic's name on

    4 this list and his signature here, does that not mean

    5 that he was a member of the HDZ at that time? And

    6 we're talking about the 18th of September, '91 until

    7 the 8th of April, 1992.

    8 A. Could you repeat the question, please?

    9 Q. The fact that Drago Josipovic's name features

    10 on this list and the fact that he signed this list

    11 personally, it says HDZ, between the -- in the list

    12 which says HDZ, between the 18th of September, '91 and

    13 the 8th of April, '92, does that not mean that Drago

    14 Josipovic was a member of the HDZ during that period of

    15 time?

    16 A. It need not mean that. It can only mean that

    17 he happened to be at home at the time when they were

    18 drawing up this list.

    19 Q. You said at home. Was he at home or without

    20 work? Did he just happen to be at home when these

    21 people happened to be passing by? What do you mean

    22 when you say he was at home?

    23 A. That at the time, when this list was being

    24 drawn up, when the names were collected, he happened to

    25 be at home. It need not mean that there were not any



  37. 1other persons, but it is most proper for the person

    2 whose particulars have been taken to sign the document.

    3 Q. I understand. What you are saying is that he

    4 was at home and people came and asked him to sign and

    5 he signed. But why is his name on this list? Why was

    6 his name put on this list?

    7 A. Because he was either able-bodied, that is,

    8 he could work or he would fight. He was of military

    9 age and able-bodied.

    10 Q. But don't we see on this list all the people

    11 from the territory of Vitez who are able-bodied and are

    12 of military age? And that is not the case. We don't

    13 have the list of all the people fitting that

    14 description.

    15 A. But these are the initial data found there,

    16 that is my guess, at the time when these lists were

    17 made on the basis of the territorial principle.

    18 Q. Madam, another document was tendered here

    19 under P353, and this is a list of names of people who

    20 participated in the defence during the period after

    21 April 1992, and that list and other lists include many

    22 more names; it is two or three times as long as this

    23 list here. So does it not -- so that this list is not

    24 the same as the list which is numbered 353, and the

    25 list which you have before you, is it not a selection



  38. 1of certain names because this list does not include the

    2 names of all the inhabitants of Vitez?

    3 A. It need not mean that because this is not an

    4 official census. The official census or official list

    5 was kept only by the authorities.

    6 Q. I shall move on to another question. You

    7 spoke about Drago Josipovic's wife, Slavica. Did you

    8 maintain any personal relations with her?

    9 A. No, not at that time. My relations were with

    10 Drago and it had to do with our work. I knew Slavica

    11 only through administration bodies, that is, because of

    12 work, and I didn't know her as much as I knew Drago.

    13 Q. But didn't you tell us a moment ago that you

    14 visited Drago Josipovic professionally and also

    15 privately, that is, both during working hours and

    16 outside working hours, and that you also were informed

    17 about his personal life, you knew about his private

    18 life, about his children?

    19 A. Yes, because we met often, and in the course

    20 of our conversations, we got to know one another and

    21 children and wife, that is, I met his wife through him.

    22 Q. I see. But you did not know his wife

    23 personally.

    24 A. Yes, through him and through work.

    25 Q. I believe there is some -- I think we are



  39. 1talking at cross-purposes. But did you go to his

    2 house? Have you been to his home?

    3 A. I was invited there only when we worked at my

    4 husband's sister's, next to his home, so they would

    5 invite us over for a friendly chat at times when we

    6 would take rest.

    7 Q. So did you meet his wife on such occasions?

    8 A. Not very often. Slavica usually was not at

    9 home but Drago and his late mother were very

    10 considerate, very hospitable, and on such occasions,

    11 yes, I met Slavica outside work.

    12 Q. But tell us when it was that you met

    13 Slavica? Was it in 1993 or before that?

    14 A. Before 1993, I met her through work. She was

    15 the one who issued building permits. She worked at the

    16 office for the issuance of building permits and worked

    17 in the enterprise. Then I would ask Drago something

    18 else, whatever we needed for the company, anything that

    19 we needed, and he told us that his wife worked there

    20 and so it was easier to solve some company matters

    21 through her. But it was prior to 1990, it was before

    22 1990 even.

    23 Q. But at that time, Slavica Josipovic was not

    24 often at home, as you told us, and is it because she

    25 had some political duties, because she held some



  40. 1political office?

    2 A. Not at that time. She only was employed and

    3 worked for the administration, but she would go out

    4 into the field.

    5 Q. Could you be more specific? What period of

    6 time are you referring to?

    7 A. Before 1990.

    8 Q. If we then turn to the period after 1990,

    9 that is, 1991 principally until 1993, at that time,

    10 could you then answer my question regarding the

    11 political work of Slavica?

    12 A. All I know is that Slavica was a member of

    13 the HDZ, but whether she held some office there, I

    14 don't know.

    15 Q. You can tell us who is and who is not a

    16 member of the HDZ in this list. We could see that.

    17 But you cannot tell us what were the responsibilities,

    18 what were the duties of Slavica Josipovic in the HDZ,

    19 can you?

    20 A. I don't know about that. As far as I know,

    21 as of 1995, she may have had some office, that is,

    22 after the ceasefire was signed in '94, that is, '95, I

    23 believe she was on the municipal board, but during that

    24 period of time, I'm not really -- I don't think she

    25 held any particular office.



  41. 1Q. A moment ago you told us that Drago Josipovic

    2 held some union positions, that he was representing the

    3 unions at the Sintevit company and two other

    4 companies. Could you tell us, how did he come to hold

    5 those offices? Was it through appointment or through

    6 election?

    7 A. It was like this -- it would take a great

    8 long time to describe to you the sort of management

    9 system arrangements, when you have workers' assemblies

    10 pronouncing themselves someplace. "Workers' assembly"

    11 means all employees of a production plant. They would

    12 nominate one or two persons from amongst themselves to

    13 the executive board. Then this executive board of the

    14 union would then elect their representatives to the

    15 action conference, that is, all production units would

    16 nominate their representatives. So he had to be

    17 nominated by somebody from his own production plant.

    18 Q. So to try to make it as clear as possible,

    19 and this is something that does not exist any more, but

    20 you are telling us that he was nominated for this

    21 office, for this post?

    22 A. Well, somebody had to nominate him. The

    23 constituency, so to speak, were the body of employees,

    24 that is, somebody had to nominate him and he would be

    25 elected. He was on the list. There would be a secret



  42. 1ballot usually, but at times they would also vote

    2 publicly.

    3 Q. As of when did Drago Josipovic come to hold

    4 these executive posts in the union, these offices in

    5 the union?

    6 A. Well, those were not professional posts. We

    7 call them self-management offices. So he did not do it

    8 professionally. He was not paid for it.

    9 Q. But my question is: When is it that Drago

    10 Josipovic was elected to these offices that you just

    11 described to us?

    12 A. I cannot remember exactly. I do know that

    13 before 1990 he already was nominated. First they would

    14 be elected for a four-year term, then they were elected

    15 for a two-year term. So I cannot say. So it would be

    16 1988 until 1990 he was a member of the executive

    17 board. After '91, I really cannot say without some

    18 reliable proof.

    19 Q. But the same set of documents which Mr. Susak

    20 submitted awhile ago were talking about the beginning,

    21 the early days of 1991.

    22 A. Yes. That documents referred to 1991.

    23 Q. I mean that before that. Drago Josipovic did

    24 not hold any noteworthy office prior to 1991?

    25 A. Yes, that's what is I said. I confirmed that



  43. 1because I worked as of 1991. As of '91, I was on leave

    2 because I was expecting a baby, so that for other

    3 periods of time I can speak only on the basis of some

    4 documentation.

    5 Q. Now I'm referring to 1991, '92, and '93.

    6 During that period of time, the question of political

    7 membership, partisanship, would it affect, of course --

    8 would it affect the membership in the union or the

    9 posts held there, or some management bodies?

    10 A. No. Union organisations had never anything

    11 to do with political membership.

    12 Q. But the political conflict, did it affect

    13 somehow the union movement, the union structure?

    14 A. There were no political conflicts at the

    15 time.

    16 Q. After the elections, after the big elections,

    17 but this is a question which does not refer to Drago

    18 Josipovic specifically but the existence of different

    19 parties, some of them were very ethnically based, such

    20 as HDZ, SDS, and so on and so forth. Did this aspect

    21 affect the unions in any manner, the institutional

    22 organisation of unions? Do you understand my

    23 questions?

    24 A. No, union worked independent of party

    25 membership during that period of time. During that



  44. 1period of time, their activity came down only to the

    2 distribution of relief, provision of food supplies for

    3 the employees.

    4 Q. Could you tell us what period of time you are

    5 talking about?

    6 A. I'm talking about the time after 1991.

    7 MR. TERRIER: Thank you. I have no further

    8 questions.

    9 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. We will take a

    10 break now? Before we take a break, Mr. Susak, do you

    11 have many questions?

    12 MR. SUSAK: No, do I not, Mr. President.

    13 JUDGE CASSESE: No questions. Thank you.

    14 MR. TERRIER: Mr. President, excuse me, has

    15 this book been tendered into evidence?

    16 JUDGE CASSESE: The list you mean, the

    17 register?

    18 JUDGE MAY: She said it was 371.

    19 JUDGE CASSESE: I think it should be. It

    20 should be given a number. 371, isn't it?

    21 MR. TERRIER: Yes. Yes, I tender it.

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: No objection, Counsel Susak,

    23 for the 371?

    24 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I've object to its

    25 being admitted into evidence because the title has been



  45. 1added to these lists, and the title does not correspond

    2 with the contents of this list because these people are

    3 not HDZ members. So I object to its being admitted

    4 into evidence.

    5 JUDGE CASSESE: On the other hand,

    6 Counsel Susak, this was relied upon by you yourself.

    7 It was not produced by the Prosecutor. It was handed

    8 by the Prosecutor to the Defence counsel, and you

    9 quoted and actually heavily relied on this document.

    10 How can you now object to its admission into evidence?

    11 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I hope you will

    12 see my point. This is the last witness for Drago

    13 Josipovic and I had to ask these questions, but I do

    14 not know how the Prosecutor will use this document in

    15 the future. This was my last opportunity to check on

    16 this list. Today I did not intend to tender it into

    17 evidence. All I wanted to do was to examine this

    18 witness, but the Prosecutor could examine his witnesses

    19 in a different manner with regard to this document.

    20 JUDGE CASSESE: Well, we admit this document

    21 into evidence as P371.

    22 All right. Mrs. Vukadinovic, thank you so

    23 much for testifying here in The Hague. You may now be

    24 released.

    25 THE WITNESS: Thank you.



  46. 1(The witness withdrew)

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: We adjourn for 30 minutes.

    3 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

    4 --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.

    5 (The witness entered court)

    6 JUDGE CASSESE: I understand a closed session

    7 has been requested by Counsel Pavkovic.

    8 (Closed session)

    9 (redacted)

    10 (redacted)

    11 (redacted)

    12 (redacted)

    13 (redacted)

    14 (redacted)

    15 (redacted)

    16 (redacted)

    17 (redacted)

    18 (redacted)

    19 (redacted)

    20 (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

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    16 (Open session)

    17 JUDGE CASSESE: Good afternoon, Mr. Katava.

    18 Would you please stand and make the solemn

    19 declaration?

    20 THE WITNESS: Good morning, Your Honours. I

    21 solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole

    22 truth, and nothing but the truth.

    23 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be

    24 seated. Counsel Pavkovic?

    25 MR. PAVKOVIC: Thank you, Mr. President.



  73. 1THE WITNESS: MARINKO KATAVA

    2 Examined by Mr. Pavkovic:

    3 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Katava.

    4 A. Good afternoon.

    5 Q. It is usual, so would you please first tell

    6 us something about yourself, your full name, date of

    7 birth?

    8 A. My name is Marinko Katava. I was born on the

    9 18th of November, 1952, in Busovaca. I live in Vitez.

    10 My address is Marshal Tito A5.

    11 Q. Mr. Katava, are you married?

    12 A. Yes. I am married and I have five children.

    13 Q. What is your wife's name?

    14 A. My wife is Jelica. My daughters are Anita,

    15 Ivana, Kristina, Gabrella.

    16 Q. Could you tell us how old your children are?

    17 A. My eldest daughter was born in 1975. The

    18 next one in '78. Then we had twins in 1980 and the

    19 youngest was born in 1988.

    20 Q. Thank you. Mr. Katava, could you tell me

    21 what your profession is?

    22 A. I am an administrative lawyer and I have been

    23 employed in that capacity since 1977.

    24 Q. Could you tell me what you are doing today?

    25 A. Today I'm the director of a private company.



  74. 1Q. Do you have any brothers?

    2 A. Yes. I have a brother who is two years older

    3 than me. At the moment he's a refugee from Vukovar,

    4 living in the vicinity of Vinkovci.

    5 Q. Could you speak a little slower because of

    6 the interpreters, please? Could you tell me whether

    7 you have any half brothers?

    8 A. Yes, I have two half brothers. They are

    9 younger than me. One was born in 1958, the other in

    10 1961.

    11 Q. Do you have a twin brother perhaps?

    12 A. No.

    13 Q. Do you know -- you say that you are an

    14 administrative lawyer by profession. Do you know

    15 whether in Vitez and the surrounding area there is

    16 another person called Marinko Katava?

    17 A. Not in Vitez. In 1990, I was a member of the

    18 municipal electoral commission and I had a list of the

    19 voters, and the only person whose last name was Katava

    20 was I. There is another person, much younger than me,

    21 called Marinko Katava in the Busovaca municipality.

    22 Q. Today, Mr. Katava, you said that you were the

    23 managing director or the owner of a private company.

    24 Is it your company?

    25 A. Yes. It belongs to me and my wife.



  75. 1Q. If we go back a little to a time before these

    2 wartime events, could you please tell me what you were

    3 doing before 1990, what your job was?

    4 A. Before what year?

    5 Q. 1990. Were you employed as a lawyer?

    6 A. Yes. I was employed as a lawyer from the 1st

    7 of February, 1987. I was in a timber company called

    8 Impregnacia in Vitez, which employed between 500 and

    9 600 employees, and until 1993 I was the head of the

    10 personnel department and the general administration

    11 department.

    12 Q. Can you tell me what your job consisted of?

    13 A. Well, in the self-management system which we

    14 had in the entire ex-Yugoslavia, it was a very

    15 demanding job. We had to provide services to all the

    16 self-management bodies.

    17 Q. At that time, was the issue of employment and

    18 dismissal a topical one?

    19 A. Yes. I was in charge of all the rights and

    20 obligations arising from employment, the start and

    21 termination of employment, and in labour disputes and

    22 so on.

    23 Q. I apologise. After I ask you a question,

    24 could you pause a little before replying so that

    25 everything you say can be interpreted?



  76. 1In your former job, were you also in charge

    2 of resolving the housing problems of the employees?

    3 A. Yes. In that system, companies had to

    4 earmark some of their funds for housing construction.

    5 This was a solidarity housing, and every year there

    6 were a few flats, the construction of which was funded

    7 by our company and which were intended for our

    8 employees who had to compete for them at a public

    9 competition.

    10 Q. I would now like to ask you about the names

    11 of certain persons, and I would like you to tell me

    12 whether they were then employed in your company. Could

    13 you tell me whether you knew Muzafer Puscul?

    14 A. Yes. Yes, I knew him.

    15 Q. Where was he employed?

    16 A. He worked in Impregnacia, with a secondary

    17 school education, as a technician, and he was the

    18 foreman. He was the foreman of a shift, and that was a

    19 lower level of leadership responsibility.

    20 Q. What were your relations then?

    21 A. Well, normal, I would say. Nothing special.

    22 Neither good nor bad. There were 600 people there. I

    23 knew most of them, and they probably all knew me

    24 because I was the only person doing my job in that

    25 company.



  77. 1Q. Could you tell me whether there was an

    2 employee called Sakib Ahmic in your company?

    3 A. Yes, there was.

    4 Q. Where was Mr. Sakib Ahmic from. Where did he

    5 live at that time?

    6 A. I don't know where he lived -- because I know

    7 that he lived in Ahmici. I don't know where in

    8 Ahmici.

    9 Q. Can you tell me what jobs he did at

    10 Impregnacija?

    11 A. He was the driver of a passenger car and

    12 he -- he was the driver for the directors, and the

    13 directors had to be re-elected every four years.

    14 Q. You said that there were numerous employees

    15 in your former company. I have asked you about only

    16 two of them. I will not go on.

    17 Can you just tell me -- please don't mention

    18 any third names -- but between the two persons we have

    19 mentioned, was there any connection, and if so, what

    20 kind of connection was there between Muzafer Puscul and

    21 Sakib Ahmic?

    22 A. Muzafer was Sakib's son-in-law.

    23 Q. Could you tell me, as regards Mr. Sakib

    24 Ahmic, one more thing. You said that among your other

    25 duties at that time, you were also in charge of the



  78. 1housing problems of your employees. Can you recall an

    2 event which might be important today when we mention

    3 the name of Mr. Sakib Ahmic or his son-in-law? There

    4 is something that I would like to throw light on so it

    5 will become clear.

    6 A. Well, there were several events connected

    7 with that family and their housing problems. In those

    8 15 years, there was never a competition for the

    9 awarding of an apartment or a loan without their

    10 competing.

    11 If you will allow me, I would like to tell

    12 you two, I might call them anecdotes, from the

    13 self-management system. Sakib Ahmic asked for a flat

    14 every year, trying to prove that his house had such bad

    15 living conditions that he could no longer live in it.

    16 When, finally, he managed to get to the top of the

    17 list, it was for a one-room apartment, he gave up his

    18 position because his son-in-law was the second on the

    19 list, so his son-in-law got that apartment. In time,

    20 he completed the construction of his family house, but

    21 he never gave back the flat to the company.

    22 Another thing that happened with regard to

    23 Sakib: When he had to prove that he was an employee

    24 who was without a place to live in, which would mean

    25 that he would get 200 points on that list, he brought



  79. 1along a judgement saying that he was divorced. It was

    2 an official court document showing that he was

    3 divorced, that he had left his house to his wife and

    4 that he was homeless.

    5 I'm just trying to show you the character of

    6 this man. The president of the housing commission, who

    7 had the last say, was Sakib Ahmic's brother, Islam

    8 Ahmic, but he then would not allow him to get the

    9 apartment by such fraudulent means.

    10 Q. Thank you. You have given your evaluation of

    11 his attitude to these issues, so I will not go on with

    12 this line of questioning.

    13 Mr. Katava, I would now like to ask you very

    14 briefly to recall the beginning of the year 1990 and

    15 the time of the major social and political changes that

    16 took place then, the time of multi-party elections, and

    17 I would like to ask you whether you, at that time, were

    18 a member of any political organisation, a political

    19 party?

    20 A. No.

    21 Q. This means that you were not a member then

    22 and you are not a member now of the ruling party, the

    23 Croatian Democratic Union --

    24 A. No.

    25 Q. -- the HDZ? With respect to your social



  80. 1activities at that time, can you tell me whether you

    2 were a member of some kind of non-political

    3 organisation?

    4 A. Well, I was a member of the hunting

    5 association for some 15 years.

    6 Q. Does that mean -- you say 15 years. Starting

    7 from when?

    8 A. Well, 15 years back from now.

    9 Q. Does that mean that you had weapons?

    10 A. Yes. I had and I still have a hunting rifle

    11 produced in the Czech Republic.

    12 Q. Did you ever have a military weapon so you

    13 know how to handle a hunting rifle?

    14 A. Yes, a hunting rifle, which includes a

    15 hunter's carbine, I did not have one but I knew how to

    16 use it. I had an old M-48 rifle when I served in the

    17 army.

    18 Q. When was that?

    19 A. That was in 1971.

    20 Q. 1971, yes. Mr. Katava, you told us today

    21 where you live, what your address is. Could you tell

    22 me, in the first half of 1993, where did you live then?

    23 A. I lived where I still live, in the same flat,

    24 the same address. It was in Vitez, the street was then

    25 called Marshal Tito, House number 5. The name of the



  81. 1street was changed after the war, but it is still the

    2 same address.

    3 Q. So in the first half of 1993, and this

    4 includes the 16th of April, 1993, your address was

    5 Marshal Tito Street, A5?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. And you lived there with your family?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. I would now like to ask you some concrete

    10 questions. I have awakened your recollections, so

    11 could you please try to remember what you were doing on

    12 the 15th of April, 1993, the day before these conflicts

    13 broke out?

    14 A. It was a normal working day like any other,

    15 like the 13th, like the 12th, like the 5th, all the

    16 days are the same. I would get up at half past six,

    17 take my youngest daughter to kindergarten, work from

    18 7.00 to 3.00, then pick up my daughter from the

    19 kindergarten, come home. I have children, so that was

    20 my daily routine.

    21 Q. In the afternoon and in the evening, can you

    22 remember, for example, when you went to bed?

    23 A. It was usually after the news at 10 p.m.

    24 Q. And the numerous family members that you

    25 mentioned, were they all with you then?



  82. 1A. Yes, they were all with me.

    2 Q. The children were very young then.

    3 A. Yes. My eldest daughter was 18. The others

    4 were much younger. The youngest was five.

    5 MR. PAVKOVIC: I would now like to go back to

    6 a question, but I will mention the names of some

    7 protected witnesses, so I would like to go into private

    8 session very briefly.

    9 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Let's go into private

    10 session.

    11 (Private session)

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  90. 1(redacted)

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    8 (Open session)

    9 MR. PAVKOVIC:

    10 Q. So you went back to the entrance door into a

    11 building sometime after 9.00, between 9.00 and 10.00.

    12 Were your other neighbours there?

    13 A. There was somebody all the time there.

    14 People came and went. But it was mostly this group of

    15 neighbours that I have just mentioned. From time to

    16 time, for instance, Fahro came down. I remember he was

    17 on the first floor and he was a man of somewhat

    18 advanced age, Fahro -- I believe Salkic. He would come

    19 down, come to us, ask me, "Would you like me to bring

    20 you something to drink or something?" So -- "What's

    21 going on? Is there anything going on?"

    22 I think during the day, that neighbour --

    23 what was his name -- Mr. Izvanovica, he came down once

    24 and his wife also, and Dr. Mujenznovic. Well, we were

    25 there practically. Not all the time. Not all of us



  91. 1all the time, but people wanted to be there to learn

    2 something more, to find out something more, but that

    3 day it was impossible to find out anything.

    4 Q. Mr. Katava, you tried to explain to us what

    5 you were doing at this entrance and I interrupted you.

    6 I apologise. Before that, were you assigned a

    7 particular duty, a task, telling you what you would be

    8 expected to do under certain circumstances, in a

    9 situation such as that one, for instance? Were you

    10 assigned a certain responsibility or did you, that

    11 morning, simply organise so as to protect your families

    12 against possible onslaught or something?

    13 A. No. There were no assignments. I think I

    14 told you, when I came down I also already found some

    15 people down there.

    16 Q. Now, whose initiative was that?

    17 A. I don't know. It was ours. If we can refer

    18 to this group as "us," and whether it was a group of

    19 three, or six, or seven, not more than that, and what

    20 we wanted to do. Of course, I'm referring to my own,

    21 but I believe other people reacted in the same way. We

    22 simply had to be there in order to forestall or to

    23 prevent somebody's bad conduct. It could have come

    24 from anyone.

    25 No. At that one point in time, I'm telling



  92. 1you, you enter here and there's the staircase to the

    2 upper floors, and very often, not to say ten times or

    3 more that day, well, those shells were falling just too

    4 close. I mean, we felt as if they were falling right

    5 in front us. Then we would simply get behind that

    6 staircase to seek some shelter, because even there it

    7 was not very safe.

    8 Q. How many time did you spend at that part of

    9 your entrance, that is coming and going, and visiting

    10 flats on that day, on the 16th of April,'93?

    11 A. Well, with intervals, one goes to have a bite

    12 somewhere and, after all, there were some other needs

    13 to attend to, but we were there all the time that

    14 morning, all day, all night, until after the 20th of

    15 April.

    16 Q. Do you know -- the entrance of this whole

    17 block of flats, were they organised in the same

    18 manner? Were they guarding those others?

    19 A. No. This entrance, which is closest to this

    20 side road, and then as you come here this is the

    21 parking lot, and my entrance is the first one. From

    22 that one you can see all the other entrances.

    23 People were here at this, our entrance, and I

    24 told you already from the entrance A8; A6, two of them;

    25 and me. So from this whole, as I said, block it is



  93. 1five entrances into one in the same residential

    2 building.

    3 Q. What does it face?

    4 A. It faces so that from one place you can see

    5 all the entrances and the parking lot, whatever, cars

    6 parked, of course.

    7 Q. Now, could you please search your memory?

    8 You said shells fell and then you would seek shelter

    9 behind the stairs and the interior of the buildings,

    10 but would you try to remember what was the situation in

    11 that town, in that part of your town, as you saw it or

    12 as you remember it today? Could you, from where you

    13 were, could you see all and what could you see? Also,

    14 I would like to know how forceful were those

    15 explosions? Where did they come from? Was there

    16 small-arms fire? Could you please, if you remember, of

    17 course, recount to us something about these details?

    18 A. Well, what you can see from the place where

    19 we stood -- well, it is a circle within which we moved,

    20 and that is not more than a ten-metre diameter. So you

    21 can only see over the roofs of the buildings, the top

    22 of a hill or, rather, halfway up the hill to the top of

    23 the hill. That is the village of Krcevine, and then

    24 comes Poculica, and to the left is Preocica, to the

    25 right Krcevine in a depression.



  94. 1What we could see what was -- so on that

    2 side, that slope of the hill towards Zenica, and there

    3 were some houses on fire.

    4 Q. But where were the shells falling?

    5 A. I don't know. I did not see in our part, and

    6 we are surrounded, one, two, three, buildings, and ours

    7 are the fourth, so that we were practically within a

    8 circle enclosed by buildings. So we could not see

    9 either the main road or those principal buildings such

    10 as the post office, the police, the municipal hall. It

    11 was to the left of us as the road goes on to Travnik.

    12 It is about 300 or 400 metres.

    13 Q. So there were no shells which fell in the

    14 vicinity of your buildings, somebody with weapons?

    15 A. No, no, but detonations were terrible.

    16 Q. You said you were all the more frightened

    17 because of that, because nobody had any experience with

    18 that?

    19 A. Well, I didn't.

    20 Q. Mr. Katava, tell me, in light of this

    21 situation you've just described, if somebody wanted to

    22 leave the building, that is, go into town, did people

    23 move around the town from what you can see?

    24 A. During those five days, where I lived was

    25 ghostly. I just completely abounded -- nothing moved.



  95. 1In every town you -- it could be interesting. In every

    2 town you find stray dogs, but that day even stray dogs

    3 were absent.

    4 Q. From your building, as far as you know, did

    5 anybody leave? Did anybody go out?

    6 A. Well, I can't really say that with certainty,

    7 but I don't think so. Not from our entrance or from

    8 other entrances. I think everybody was there.

    9 Q. In view of what you just said, do you think

    10 it would be reasonable for anyone to leave the

    11 building, in view of what you are telling us?

    12 A. No. I think it would have been crazy,

    13 because if I tell you that even from that entrance, I

    14 don't know how many times, must have been about ten or

    15 a dozen times, running away to shelter because shells

    16 were falling around. It was the first time I could

    17 hear the infantry bursts of fire. I mean, it was all

    18 new to us. I mean, we did not know who was firing

    19 bullets and at whom. It took me quite some time, and

    20 it lasted as long as it lasted to understand what was

    21 going on.

    22 Q. But, Mr. Katava, your neighbours who were at

    23 the entrance there with you, what were they wearing?

    24 A. They were all wearing civilian clothes,

    25 naturally.



  96. 1Q. You mean, whatever they happened to put on

    2 that morning?

    3 A. Well, yes. I mean, people who, of course,

    4 got undressed in the evening, they put on something in

    5 the morning. I guess it was the first thing they laid

    6 their hands on.

    7 Q. Do you remember what you were wearing?

    8 A. Well, ordinarily I usually went to work, and

    9 I must have been wearing either a suit or something. I

    10 don't know.

    11 Q. Did you have any kind of a uniform such as

    12 one could see being worn by the military at the time?

    13 A. No.

    14 Q. At that entrance did you have any weapons,

    15 any personal weapons to use them for protection, for

    16 your safety?

    17 A. There was a hunting rifle; a shotgun, a

    18 two-barrelled one. It was -- a neighbour, I think from

    19 the entrance number 6, brought it, Stojkovic. I don't

    20 know who it belonged to. There were six or seven

    21 charges.

    22 Q. So you only had this shotgun at this

    23 entrance?

    24 A. I think that another neighbour, Krizanac, as

    25 we talked there he said, "Well, I've got a gun." When



  97. 1he pulled it out, that pistol had been conserved and we

    2 all laughed at it because it was unusable.

    3 Q. Mr. Katava, do you know where the village of

    4 Ahmici is in relation to Vitez? How far is it?

    5 A. Well, by the road towards the Lasva it is

    6 about -- well, it is the main road. It could be about

    7 five kilometres, slightly more perhaps.

    8 Q. Prior to 1993, that is, prior to the 16th of

    9 April, had you ever been to Ahmici? Were you there on

    10 that day or did you go there afterwards?

    11 A. No. I have never been. Until the end of the

    12 war and after the war, I was there. I was there last

    13 year and only once. It was because of Mirjan and Zoran

    14 Kupreskic's mother, to marry them.

    15 Q. If we're referring to the 16th of April,

    16 1993, and if we are -- if we now consider what was

    17 going on, as you saw it from your entrance or they were

    18 watching it from your entrance, was it possible to go

    19 to Ahmici and come back or just go there without

    20 exposing oneself to a major risk, to a major danger?

    21 Was it possible to walk there, to go there on foot?

    22 A. No.

    23 Q. And by car?

    24 A. Oh, I don't know. I don't know. I don't

    25 know if it was possible, but a normal man wouldn't do



  98. 1that.

    2 Q. Mr. Katava, now I should like to mention a

    3 few names and we'll ask you to tell me if you know them

    4 and since when. Do you know Drago Josipovic?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. Since when?

    7 A. I met Drago in early 1997.

    8 Q. That was the first time you met him?

    9 A. Well, I knew his name before that, but I

    10 never met him until the beginning of '97. I knew his

    11 name.

    12 Q. So today in the courtroom you could identify

    13 Drago Josipovic, could you? Can you tell us, where is

    14 Drago Josipovic?

    15 A. The first, the second, the third. That

    16 handsome moustachioed man.

    17 MR. PAVKOVIC: Thank you. For the record, we

    18 may note that the witness identified Drago Josipovic.

    19 Q. Now, tell me, do you know Stipo Alilovic,

    20 called Brko?

    21 A. I knew Brko -- I mean, it is difficult to say

    22 whether one knows or doesn't know one because the man

    23 has been known for a long time, but I knew him as a man

    24 who lived in Vitez and I liked him because he had a

    25 very pretty daughter who was some three or four years



  99. 1old and they often took walks around the time and I saw

    2 them, and he was -- he had quite an unusual

    3 appearance. For a while, I was in a hostelry, then he

    4 kept a custom jewellery shop, but as I know -- I mean,

    5 we were just acquaintances, not more than that. We

    6 would say "Hello" to one another when we met.

    7 Q. When was it that you saw Stipo Alilovic in

    8 Vitez for the last time, before the second conflict

    9 with the Muslims?

    10 A. No, no, I can't tell you. I can't really

    11 give you a date.

    12 Q. Do you know if, at that time, Stipo Alilovic

    13 lived in Ahmici -- sorry, sorry. A slip of the

    14 tongue. Did he live in Vitez at that time?

    15 A. At what time?

    16 Q. I mean the first half of 1993.

    17 A. No, later -- well, right. We learned in

    18 Easter 1992, I don't remember when it was, end of

    19 April, beginning of May, Stipo Alilovic, we knew then

    20 that he had left the territory of the former Yugoslavia

    21 for keeps. I don't know whether it was because he had

    22 learned that he was suffering from cancer or for some

    23 other reason. But I also know that, for a while, he

    24 lived in Austria, then he came and lived in Amsterdam

    25 where he received treatment and then eventually died.



  100. 1Q. But can one then conclude that in the former

    2 half of 1993, Stipo Alilovic was not in the territory

    3 of Vitez and the neighbouring area?

    4 A. No, he was not there.

    5 Q. Mr. Katava, do you know Zeljo Livancic? Do

    6 you know anything about him?

    7 A. No.

    8 Q. Do you know Zarko Kristo?

    9 A. No.

    10 Q. Does the name Karlo Cerkez tell you anything?

    11 A. No.

    12 Q. And, finally, do you know Vlado Santic?

    13 A. Yes, I do know Vlado -- well, I've known him

    14 some 15, 16, 17 years maybe.

    15 Q. Were you friends? Did you visit one another?

    16 A. No. We met when he moved into a flat or,

    17 rather, we had to move out my friend and his family and

    18 he was moving in, and that was when we met this friend

    19 of mine who was his commander in the police, and he had

    20 just completed his house, he was moving from that flat

    21 into that house, and Vlado was given this flat by the

    22 police and that was when he moved in that we met for

    23 the first time.

    24 Q. How long ago could it have been?

    25 A. I believe some 16 or 17 years. And after



  101. 1that, we would just greet one another when we met. We

    2 did not visit one another.

    3 Q. Do you know -- and in the beginning you said

    4 that you were a member of the electoral commission and

    5 thus you had the lists of voters. Were you aware

    6 whether, in Vitez and around Vitez, there were other

    7 people of the same name of Vlado Santic?

    8 A. Yes, that surname is quite common in our

    9 area, and these people are not even related; different

    10 lineages, really. I mean, Santic is a common surname

    11 there. And secondly, as for the first name, one never

    12 knows what name has been put on the birth certificate,

    13 whether Vlado or Vladimir, and it often depends on what

    14 the mother called the child for the first time, whether

    15 Vlado, Vladimir, or whatever, and it is usually the

    16 same thing.

    17 So there is a Vlado Santic and I believe

    18 they're even -- that we are peers, more or less, that

    19 we are of the same age.

    20 Q. Can you see Vlado Santic in the courtroom,

    21 Vlado Santic?

    22 A. Yes. He is the first one with the earphones

    23 and very little hair.

    24 MR. PAVKOVIC: So we can put in the record

    25 that the witness identified Vladimir Santic in the



  102. 1courtroom.

    2 Q. Mr. Katava, when I asked you if you knew

    3 people that I mentioned, you said that some of them you

    4 did not know at all, that some you knew but, in the

    5 former half of 1993, they were not in Vitez and the

    6 surrounding area, but with those persons that you do

    7 know more or less, were you together with them in some

    8 organisation? You told us you were not a member of any

    9 political party, but were you a member of some public

    10 organisation or something? Did you socialise

    11 somewhere? Did you meet somewhere?

    12 A. No, no. But now that I met the brothers

    13 Kupreskic, I feel sorry that I missed being in their

    14 company more.

    15 Q. So we can infer that on this day, on the 16th

    16 of April, '93, you could not be together on any

    17 grounds?

    18 A. No.

    19 Q. Mr. Katava, were you a member of the HVO?

    20 A. No. But to make it quite clear, I must say

    21 that the war in Vitez did not begin on the 16th of

    22 April, as some are trying to say, it began much

    23 earlier; and during that war, a front line was set up

    24 to defend against the Serb aggression from Vlasic

    25 and -- I'm referring to 1992 -- and that was a line



  103. 1that was kept as a defence line.

    2 There was the hunting society which, of

    3 course, took part in this, and again the hunting

    4 association, I don't know who decided it, but it was

    5 decided that the hunting association should cover to

    6 prevent an assumed danger of assault from a part which

    7 is called Poljane, there was a settlement of summer

    8 cottages, and from this Poljane is a special purpose

    9 plant, that is, a plant manufacturing explosives, and

    10 so as to at least try to thwart any plans of capturing

    11 it, the hunting association was up there both to

    12 protect the hunting grounds and just to be seen, to

    13 make a presence. Not to prevent any serious onslaught

    14 with the hunting weapons but simply to be there. And

    15 that was the latter half of 1992. And I was with that

    16 unit, and every three or four weeks, I would be with

    17 that unit because I had my hunting weapons, those that

    18 I used to have then, that is, before that, and then --

    19 and with this hunting weapon, I used to be up there.

    20 Q. Mr. Katava, tell us, you deviated when I

    21 asked about the HVO but you said-- you spoke about the

    22 hunting association, but it was not a part of the HVO

    23 at the time you tell us about. But at that time, was

    24 there anything that was organised as far as you know?

    25 A. As far as I know, nothing was really properly



  104. 1organised. Let me be quite honest. I wish it were

    2 because the number of victims would have been much

    3 smaller. Unfortunately, there was nobody to do that.

    4 Vitez has always been a transit place. People didn't

    5 want to go and join the army, people didn't want to

    6 become officers in the army, people are -- I don't

    7 know. I mean, there are simply people like that.

    8 Q. And what about the second conflict; was there

    9 mobilisation in Vitez?

    10 A. What conflict are you referring to?

    11 Q. I'm referring to the second conflict of the

    12 16th of April, '92 -- '93.

    13 A. I'm sorry, I don't know the terminology that

    14 you are using.

    15 Q. I'm referring to the -- we know what we are

    16 talking about.

    17 A. Will you please repeat the question?

    18 Q. My question was, when the second conflict

    19 broke out, was there any mobilisation? Were people

    20 called up in Vitez and environs?

    21 A. Mobilisation -- mobilisation came later.

    22 Q. Were you mobilised?

    23 A. Yes, after the 20th of April, but was it the

    24 20th, the 21st, or the 22nd, I don't know, one of those

    25 days, because seven days after the conflict broke out



  105. 1on that scale, after a conflict of that scale, nobody

    2 could be spared mobilisation regardless. I call them

    3 children because there were children 16 years of age to

    4 elderly people, I mean, those who barely were able to

    5 walk, they were all mobilised.

    6 Q. So you say you were mobilised on the 20th of

    7 April?

    8 A. Well, it could have been the 21st. I don't

    9 know. One of those three days.

    10 Q. Where were you between the 16th of April and

    11 the 20th or whatever?

    12 A. I was all the time -- I was practically

    13 incessantly at this entrance with a couple of people

    14 who were with me there, from that teacher, Gucanin, who

    15 had heart trouble. As a matter of fact, he was simply

    16 obese. But one could not postpone it anymore.

    17 Everybody had to be given an assignment to defend the

    18 household that -- everybody was given an assignment.

    19 Little Zoran I think was the youngest one and yet he

    20 went to the front line on the third day and that was

    21 that.

    22 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, I have a set of

    23 questions, it is not too long, but perhaps it would be

    24 better if we adjourn now and then moved on to that

    25 particular set of questions tomorrow?



  106. 1JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. We will adjourn now,

    2 and tomorrow we will start at 9.00 and we have so stop

    3 at 1.00, whereas on Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday, we

    4 will sit until 1.15. So we adjourn now until

    5 tomorrow.

    6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

    7 1.30 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,

    8 the 6th day of July, 1999, at 9.00 a.m.

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