1 Wednesday, 7th July, 1999

2 (Open session)

3 (The accused entered court)

4 (The witness entered court)

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Case IT-95-16-T, the

7 Prosecutor versus Zoran Kupreskic, Mirjan Kupreskic,

8 Vlatko Kupreskic, Drago Josipovic, Dragan Papic, and

9 Vladimir Santic.

10 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning. I see

11 Mr. Vidovic is here with us.

12 Mr. Vidovic, good morning. Could you please

13 stand and make the solemn declaration?

14 THE WITNESS: Good morning. I solemnly

15 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

16 and nothing but the truth.

17 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may sit down.

18 Counsel Pavkovic?

19 MR. PAVKOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. I

20 would like to inform you, first of all, that last

21 night, my group of witnesses arrived very late, about

22 half past 10.00 p.m., and for this reason, none of them

23 will appear today, so only Mr. Vidovic will testify

24 today. Thank you.

25 WITNESS: ANDJELKO VIDOVIC

1 Examined by Mr. Pavkovic:

2 Q. Good morning, Mr. Vidovic.

3 A. Good morning.

4 Q. Please, could you first tell the Court some

5 personal details?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. When were you born? Where?

8 A. I was born in Vitez, where I live today, in

9 the village of Pirici. I am a carpenter. I went to

10 school for carpenters. I am employed -- I worked in

11 Vitez and now I am employed in Busovaca. I worked in

12 TKC, which is the telecommunications company.

13 Q. You say that you were born in Pirici.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Could you tell me, as far as we have been

16 able to learn so far, we know that there is Lower and

17 Upper Pirici. What part were you born in?

18 A. I was born in Lower Pirici and I live there.

19 Q. Please, could you wait for me to complete my

20 question and then pause a little before answering?

21 Could you tell me, in Lower Pirici, where you

22 lived, what was the ethnic make-up of the population up

23 to the conflict, the first and the second clash with

24 the Muslims?

25 A. Mostly Croatian.

1 Q. And in Upper Pirici?

2 A. The Muslims lived there.

3 Q. Mr. Vidovic, today we will deal mainly with

4 two topics. We shall talk a little bit about the

5 village patrols, and then we shall talk a little bit

6 more about your departure to Kuber, your stay on Kuber,

7 and everything that happened during that time.

8 So I would first like to ask you to tell me

9 what you know about the village patrols which were

10 organised in Lower Ahmici or, rather, Pirici.

11 A. They were organised by the villagers.

12 Q. And why were they organised?

13 A. The reason was the Serbian population. There

14 was a Serbian village overlooking our village.

15 Q. Why because of the Serbian population?

16 A. Because they had already started attacking

17 Croatian and Muslim villages. The war had already

18 started, and they were already taking over power and so

19 on.

20 Q. Could you tell us when this happened?

21 A. I can't tell you the exact date, but I know

22 that the people organised themselves, the people in the

23 village, in every village.

24 Q. Was that in 1992, in the second half of 1992?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Very well. Could you tell me now how these

2 patrols were organised. Was there someone in charge?

3 Who ordered that they should be organised? Could you

4 describe it?

5 A. Well, I don't know that there was anyone in

6 charge. The villagers got together and agreed, and we

7 kept guard together with the Muslims then.

8 Q. During these patrols, did you have any

9 weapons?

10 A. No, but the people who were on patrol before

11 us would give us weapons. They would wake us up.

12 There were two rifles, as far as I know, there were two

13 carbine M-48 rifles belonging to Croats.

14 Q. So you did have weapons, but you did not take

15 them home. Whenever there was a change of shift, you

16 would take them over, and when the shift was finished,

17 you would give them back to the next shift?

18 A. Yes, yes.

19 Q. How long were these shifts when you undertook

20 to patrol? How long was that for?

21 A. Well, we would keep guard for two hours.

22 Q. What did you do during that time?

23 A. We would go around the village and the

24 houses.

25 Q. You said that, when you were referring to the

1 patrols, you said that "the Muslims went on patrol with

2 us then." Does that mean that later, the patrols

3 separated? What do you mean about that?

4 A. Yes. When the Muslims set up a checkpoint on

5 the main Vitez-Busovaca road, they set up a checkpoint

6 at the bus stop across from Mehmed Ahmic's house and

7 Ivo Papic's house. After that, the following day, they

8 moved the checkpoint to where the Croatian cemetery

9 was. There's a bend in the road some 150 or 200 metres

10 lower down where they had trenches, they dug trenches

11 there, and they put a roadblock on the road and they

12 checked everyone who passed through.

13 Q. Very well. And why did they set up these

14 roadblocks and checkpoints; do you know?

15 A. No, nobody knew then.

16 Q. Could you tell me what relations prevailed

17 between the Croats and Muslims at that time?

18 A. Well, up to that time, they were very good.

19 Q. After October 1992, when they set up the

20 checkpoint -- wait.

21 A. Yes, they --

22 Q. They set up the roadblock and they checked

23 whom?

24 A. Well, every vehicle that passed by had to

25 stop because it couldn't get through. They also

1 stopped pedestrians.

2 Q. Did that cause dissatisfaction and

3 indignation among the Croats?

4 A. Yes, because if anything happened, the houses

5 would be exposed. There were children there.

6 Q. So we can say that relations deteriorated

7 between the Croats and the Muslims?

8 A. Yes, and they simply avoided us.

9 Q. When these village patrols split up, you

10 patrolled on one side, they patrolled on the other.

11 Can you tell me how they were equipped, how they were

12 armed, whether they had some kind of organisation of

13 these patrols?

14 A. Yes. Their command was in the Ahmici village

15 school. They had a radio transmitter there. In that

16 period, a lot of arms were brought -- a lot of weapons

17 were brought by the refugees from Jajce, from Krajina,

18 because they had already fought with the Serbs there

19 and they were better armed than we were.

20 Q. Thank you. I will not go further into this

21 topic. Let us proceed to the second topic I would like

22 to talk about today, and this refers to Kuber. Quite a

23 lot has been said about that before this Court, so I

24 will try to avoid some questions which would be

25 redundant.

1 Could you tell me what you know about how

2 guards were organised on Kuber?

3 A. Yes. I went there for the first time. I

4 didn't know what was going on there. I didn't know

5 until I got there.

6 Q. When did you go to Kuber?

7 A. I went there before the conflict for three or

8 four days, and I think it was the 13th. A friend came

9 by.

10 Q. You say "before the conflict." What conflict

11 are you referring to?

12 A. Before the second conflict.

13 Q. So you said you went around the 13th. What

14 month was that?

15 A. The 13th of April.

16 Q. What year?

17 A. 1993.

18 Q. Very well. So on the 13th of April, 1993,

19 you went to Kuber.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Tell me, who did you go with when you went to

22 Kuber?

23 A. I was at home, and my friend, Zarko Kristo,

24 dropped in and asked me whether I would like to go to

25 Kuber with him. We were very good friends. It wasn't

1 necessary for me to go there, but because I know that

2 it's a very nice place and he was a friend of mine, I

3 said "Yes, I'd like to."

4 Q. So it was not necessary for you to go there?

5 A. No. I didn't know people were going there.

6 I was not informed that I had to go. Simply my friend

7 dropped in.

8 Q. And the other people who went there with you,

9 were they supposed to go?

10 A. This was organised by the people themselves.

11 Q. Why did they go there?

12 A. There was a Serbian village there, and people

13 were afraid that they might do something.

14 Q. Did Muslims go to Kuber?

15 A. Yes. They were 100 to 150 metres away from

16 us.

17 Q. Did you go there together?

18 A. No. We took the road to Nadioci and then

19 climbed up via Nadioci, Kratine, to Kuber.

20 Q. Let us go back to the 13th of April when

21 Zarko Kristo dropped in and when you accompanied him to

22 Kuber. Where did you gather, first of all?

23 A. Well, we gathered in the village of Nadioci.

24 There was a shop there, and we bought supplies, and we

25 also took some from home.

1 Q. Did you have any weapons?

2 A. No, we didn't have any weapons. We found

3 weapons there when we got there.

4 Q. On that day when you set out for Kuber, were

5 any of you armed?

6 A. No, none of us.

7 Q. Did anyone have any military equipment?

8 A. No. Perhaps some people wore trousers.

9 Q. Who gathered in Nadioci on that day in the

10 shop?

11 A. We gathered, some 12 to 15 of us. Do I have

12 to list the people?

13 Q. Well, if you can remember.

14 A. Yes, I can. There was Zarko Kristo, my

15 friend; Ivica Plavcic; Stipica Grgic; another Stipica

16 Grgic; Ivo Pranjkovic; Zeljo Livancic; Mirko Livancic;

17 Anto Santic; Mirko Vidovic perhaps, also known as

18 Pitola.

19 Q. Was Ivan Pranjkovic among them?

20 A. Yes. I mentioned him.

21 Q. I overlooked it. So when you decided to go

22 up there and you didn't have to go --

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. -- did you ask your friend, "How long am I

25 going to stay there?"

1 A. Yes, I did, and he said, "Seven days."

2 Q. So the shifts lasted seven days?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Very well. Let us go a little faster now.

5 So you organised yourselves, took some food, and set

6 out toward Kuber?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. How long did it take you to get there?

9 A. About an hour and a half or two hours.

10 Q. Did you go on foot?

11 A. Yes, yes.

12 Q. Could you have gone by car?

13 A. No. No. We couldn't have got on to the

14 road.

15 Q. So you came to Kuber and where did you stay?

16 A. There were two holiday homes there.

17 Q. Who did they belong to?

18 A. One belonged to someone whose last name is

19 Samija. I don't know who the other one is but probably

20 a relative of his.

21 Q. Who did you find there?

22 A. I found people. They were from a village but

23 I can't remember which one exactly.

24 Q. So you were taking over their shift?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Did you then take over their weapons?

2 A. Yes. Ivo Pranjkovic and Zeljo Livancic

3 issued all the weapons and handed them to us, and those

4 were the weapons that were there.

5 Q. What was there?

6 A. There was a Chinese -- what we call a

7 Chinese. It's an automatic light machine gun. Then

8 there were M-48 rifles. There was a Spagin, which is a

9 Russian weapon.

10 Q. Did each one of you get a rifle then?

11 A. No. There were cooks who did not have

12 rifles.

13 Q. Were you issued with a weapon?

14 A. No, because I was not supposed to be there.

15 The number of people who were called up to go there

16 corresponded to the number of weapons and my arrival

17 had not been planned.

18 Q. Do you know whether there was a radio

19 transmitter there?

20 A. Yes, there was, but it wasn't functioning

21 properly. It was out of order.

22 Q. Were there any other devises for

23 communications?

24 A. No. Maybe a telephone, but we had a

25 courier.

1 Q. So you did not have any communications with

2 the village?

3 A. No, except for the courier.

4 Q. When you say "courier," who was that and what

5 did he do?

6 A. Well, if something were to happen, he would

7 go down to the village and tell them to watch out.

8 Q. Can we now talk about the way in which the

9 guards were organised on Kuber, how long the shifts

10 were, and who kept guard, when and at what time? Could

11 you tell me whether people were on duty both by day and

12 by night?

13 A. Not by day because we were all awake and we

14 were all there. At night, two men would be on duty for

15 two hours.

16 Q. So until what time were you awake all

17 together?

18 A. Well, until 10.00 p.m. After that, there

19 would be two-hour shifts.

20 Q. Yes.

21 A. The guard duty started at 10.00 p.m.

22 Q. Was anyone in charge of organising the

23 shifts?

24 A. Yes. It was Ivo Pranjkovic and Zeljo

25 Livancic.

1 Q. Were they in charge of the shifts?

2 A. Yes. They were in charge of that, yes.

3 Q. Could you wait -- could you pause a little

4 after I ask my question.

5 So from 10.00 p.m., there were two-hour

6 shifts.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. While some people were on duty, where were

9 the others?

10 A. They were in one of the two holiday homes and

11 they were sleeping.

12 Q. What was in the other house?

13 A. It was a kitchen and food was cooked there.

14 Q. Where did you keep guard on 15th to 16th of

15 April, '93?

16 A. Around these two houses, because there was a

17 path and that was the only way that you could reach the

18 two houses.

19 Q. How far from the house where the others were

20 sleeping?

21 A. About 40 metres.

22 Q. At the place where you were on guard, did you

23 stand still or did you walk around?

24 A. We walked around the house, and sometimes we

25 would linger a little on the path.

1 Q. From that place did you have a good view of

2 the house where the others were sleeping?

3 A. Yes. You could see everything.

4 Q. On the 15th to the 16th, do you remember when

5 you took over the shift?

6 A. From 2.00 to 4.00 a.m.

7 Q. That was in the morning?

8 A. Yes, yes.

9 Q. On the morning from the 15th to the 16th,

10 were you on duty from 2.00 to 4.00 a.m.?

11 A. Yes, I was.

12 Q. Do you remember who you were on guard duty

13 with?

14 A. With Zarko Kristo. I always went together

15 with him.

16 Q. On that night, when did you retire?

17 A. It could have been around 10.00 or 11.00

18 perhaps.

19 Q. Do you remember where was Zeljo Livancic at

20 the time?

21 A. He and Ivo Pranjkovic agreed about that.

22 Zeljo was there. Zeljo was on duty sometime between

23 10.00 to 12.00, and then he would go to bed and Ivo

24 Pranjkovic would take over to go around the guards.

25 Q. So the two of them were the leaders of the

1 shift, that is, Zeljo Livancic, and Ivo Pranjkovic, as

2 his deputy, would make rounds of the guards, wouldn't

3 they?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. So that night, until 12.00, Zeljo Livancic

6 was on duty?

7 A. He was, yes.

8 Q. You went to bed a little bit before that.

9 When you woke up or, rather, when you were roused to

10 take over your shift, did you see Zeljo Livancic then?

11 A. Yes. He was sleeping right next to me.

12 Q. When you came back from the guard duty at

13 4.00, did you see Zeljo Livancic then and where?

14 A. Yes. He was still asleep and he was in the

15 same place where I left him, in the summer cottage.

16 Q. So you went to bed at 4.00 in the morning?

17 A. Yes, after being on guard.

18 Q. When did you wake up in the morning?

19 A. Around 6.00 or half past five. That was the

20 regular time for us to get up.

21 Q. Did you all get up then?

22 A. Yes. We would then have coffee.

23 Q. Then when you woke up, did you see Zeljo

24 Livancic then?

25 A. Yes. He was with us. He was having coffee.

1 Q. Now, tell me -- we've now reached the 16th of

2 April, 1993, and you were having coffee. It is

3 morning. When did the gunfire at Kuber begin?

4 A. It began around 10.00.

5 Q. Who was firing at whom?

6 A. We were sitting there eating, having fun a

7 little, and at some point a shell fell about 15 metres

8 from the summer cottage, fortunately on the other side

9 of the cottage so nobody was injured, but it damaged

10 the roof and the wall of that summer cottage. We were

11 slightly taken aback. We didn't know what was

12 happening until the Muslims from the other side opened

13 fire on us.

14 We were quite surprised, we were quite

15 confounded by this, and nobody realised what was going

16 on until it really began. We were there and we

17 defended ourselves. We deployed one next to the -- at

18 a certain distance from the other one, and then we

19 retreated down, as best we could, to the village of

20 Kratine.

21 Q. You are saying that when this gunfire was

22 opened, you were deployed up there. Where were you?

23 A. I was just below this summer cottage with a

24 friend who had a rifle because I could not pull out.

25 It was just too late. They had come and surrounded us.

1 Q. Did you return fire to the Muslims?

2 A. Yes. They were all firing.

3 Q. Was anyone wounded then?

4 A. Mirko Livancic was and Stipica Grgic were

5 killed, but nobody knows anything about them.

6 Q. And then what happened?

7 A. Well, people ran out of ammunition, so they

8 were pulling down to Kratine, and there the villagers

9 met them.

10 Q. So around 10.00 or so, when the conflict

11 began?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. When did you begin to withdraw towards

14 Kratine?

15 A. When we all were together down there -- I

16 mean, it depended when each one of us was arriving. It

17 was around 6.00 or 7.00 in the afternoon.

18 Q. Did you meet Zeljo Livancic again that day?

19 A. Yes, when we all met down there.

20 Q. But did you see him at Kuber yet when this

21 fire was opened around 10.00 in the morning?

22 A. Yes, I saw him then, but then after that, we

23 were deployed around and I could not see him because

24 there were bushes and scrub and wood.

25 Q. So you saw him again that evening when you

1 came to Kratine?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Where was it that you saw him?

4 A. Near Jerko Bralo's house.

5 Q. Did you talk to him?

6 A. Yes. I asked him, "Are we all all right?

7 Are we all there?" And those two who stayed behind

8 were missing and we still do not know their fate. They

9 have not been found.

10 Q. That night, between the 16th and the 17th of

11 April, 1993, were there any more conflicts, any more

12 clashes?

13 A. I don't know because we could not hear

14 anything up there.

15 Q. But you had to come down to Kratine and you

16 said that you were met by villagers there and that was

17 on the 16th in the evening. So that night, between the

18 16th and the 17th of April, '93, were there any

19 clashes?

20 A. Yes. Down there, when we got down there, one

21 could hear gunfire all around us.

22 Q. And tell us, what do you know about Zeljo

23 Livancic after that?

24 A. After that, the next day, I heard, because

25 that was where the front line above the village was

1 mounted so they couldn't enter the village, and I heard

2 that Zeljo Livancic had been killed. I did not see him

3 until they carried him past us.

4 Q. When was he killed?

5 A. On the 17th.

6 Q. Tell me, Mr. Vidovic, how far is Kuber from

7 Ahmici?

8 A. Well, some 4 or 5 kilometres.

9 Q. Can one reach Ahmici from Kuber by some means

10 of transportation apart from walking down there?

11 A. No, you can't. You cannot reach Ahmici, you

12 cannot get to Ahmici by vehicle. You can use a car

13 only as far as Nadioci.

14 Q. My last question to you: You said that from

15 where you stood guard, you had a good view of the

16 cottage where your other friends were sleeping.

17 A. Yes, yes, I did.

18 Q. Now, tell me, could it be that Zeljo

19 Livancic, who, as you told us, was asleep when you went

20 on duty --

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. -- could Zeljo Livancic have left that summer

23 cottage without you noticing it?

24 A. No, it wasn't possible for him or anyone

25 else.

1 Q. Why is that?

2 A. Especially at night, and by day, we were all

3 together, we were all there, and at night, one simply

4 could not move around. And besides, wherever somebody

5 would go from there, one would be seen.

6 MR. PAVKOVIC: Thank you. I have no further

7 questions.

8 Thank you, Mr. President.

9 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

10 MR. PAVKOVIC: As I am on my feet, may I just

11 say that my colleague Par and Mr. Susak will continue

12 with the examination of this witness.

13 JUDGE CASSESE: You mean cross-examination?

14 MR. PAVKOVIC: Yes, yes.

15 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Counsel Par?

16 MR. PAR: Thank you, Mr. President. Only a

17 few questions.

18 Cross-examined by Mr. Par:

19 Q. Mr. Vidovic, today you listed the names of

20 individuals who were at Kuber with you, and you

21 mentioned a person called Mirko Vidovic, nicknamed

22 Pitola?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Could you please tell us something more about

25 that individual, if you know, of course? How old is

1 Mirko Vidovic?

2 A. He's a relative of mine. We are a very large

3 family. He was with us up there, and he was alive as

4 long as Kratine. After that, he asked to go back to

5 his village, to the front line, that is, after the war

6 had broken out.

7 Q. No, what we want to know is his particulars.

8 He is dead, if I understand properly.

9 A. No, he was butchered in the village of Buhina

10 Kuce.

11 Q. I'm really sorry about that.

12 A. He, his brother, brother's wife and son.

13 Q. And when was that?

14 A. After Buhina Kuce fell.

15 Q. Do you know his father's name?

16 A. Anto.

17 Q. And how old was he then?

18 A. Then? Forty, forty-five, on the outside.

19 Q. Where did he live before that?

20 A. In Buhina Kuce.

21 MR. PAR: Thank you very much. I have no

22 further questions.

23 THE PRESIDENT: Thank you, Counsel Par.

24 Counsel Susak?

25 MR. SUSAK: Thank you, Mr. President. I

1 shall be very brief.

2 Cross-examined by Mr. Susak:

3 Q. Mr. Vidovic, you told us you were born in

4 Donji Pirici.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You also told us that on the 16th of April,

7 1993, you were at Kuber.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you know Drago Josipovic?

10 A. I do because we are neighbours.

11 Q. You come from Upper Pirici and he comes from

12 Santici.

13 A. Yes, but the distance is about 500 metres,

14 practically next door.

15 Q. Do you know where Drago Josipovic was at the

16 time of the first conflict, and to help you, that was

17 on the 20th of October, 1992?

18 A. No, I do not know where he was during the

19 first conflict.

20 Q. But do you know or have you heard anything

21 about where Drago Josipovic was on the 16th of April,

22 '93? I'm asking you that. I mean, you would know as

23 you were neighbours.

24 A. No, I don't know where he was, but I only

25 heard it from other people when they came and knocked

1 on his door, as everybody else's door, to go help the

2 defence, that he had gone away to Rovna. Even his

3 father was saying that.

4 Q. How old is your father?

5 A. He was born in 1939.

6 Q. Nenad Santic; do you know him?

7 A. That is one that I have in mind. He worked

8 at the petrol pump in Vitez.

9 Q. Do you know if he worked at the petrol pump

10 on the eve of the war or, better said, on the 15th of

11 April, 1993?

12 A. Then? I don't know. I suppose so because he

13 worked there all the time.

14 Q. How do you know him? Did you stop to talk to

15 him?

16 A. Well, I had my vehicle, and he was quite a

17 talkative person.

18 Q. Yes. I understand. So you know him since

19 that time.

20 MR. SUSAK: Mr. President, I have no further

21 questions. Thank you.

22 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Counsel Puliselic?

23 MR. PULISELIC: I apologise, Mr. President.

24 Only one question. May I ask only one question of the

25 witness?

1 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes.

2 Cross-examined by Mr. Puliselic:

3 Q. Mr. Vidovic, could you tell us if you had a

4 nickname?

5 A. Acko.

6 Q. Acko, is it?

7 A. Yes.

8 MR. PULISELIC: All right. Thank you very

9 much.

10 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Counsel

11 Puliselic.

12 Mr. Terrier?

13 MR. TERRIER: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Cross-examined by Mr. Terrier:

15 Q. Witness, I'm Franck Terrier, I am one of the

16 trial attorneys in this case, and I have a few

17 questions for you.

18 Earlier on you told us that you lived in

19 Lower Pirici. Could you tell us exactly where your

20 house is or was and who your neighbours were?

21 A. Yes. My house is right down there next to

22 the main road. As you come from Vitez, before you

23 enter Ahmici, and from there is my gate before that

24 entrance into Ahmici, some 100 metres before that.

25 Perhaps even less.

1 Q. Witness, what was your work then? You told

2 us that you were a carpenter, but what were you doing

3 then, back then?

4 A. I was only trained in the vocational school,

5 but I did not work full time before the war.

6 Q. Did you do some vocational training aiming

7 towards a specific trade?

8 A. Yes. There was a course in Vitez after the

9 war, and that is how I got a job.

10 Q. You told us that you were nicknamed Acko.

11 What is your father's name?

12 A. Simun.

13 Q. Therefore, if anybody mentions Andjelko

14 Vidovic, son of Simun, and nicknamed Acko, you are the

15 one, aren't you?

16 A. Yes, indeed, yes.

17 Q. Do you have one or several brothers?

18 A. I have one brother and three sisters.

19 Q. What is your brother's first name?

20 A. Vinko. Vinko Vidovic.

21 Q. What did Vinko do at the time, around October

22 '92 up to April 1993? What was his work? What was he

23 doing then?

24 A. Like everybody else.

25 Q. Well, I have to ask you to be more specific.

1 A. What did he do then? Well, I guess he was at

2 the front line like everybody else.

3 Q. Do you mean by that, that he didn't have any

4 civil activity but he did have military activity?

5 A. Yes, highly likely. I'm not sure but

6 presumably.

7 Q. What do you mean you're not sure? You have

8 to be sure.

9 A. Well, I am not because I was at the front

10 line too at Kuber, so that we simply did not see one

11 another or we saw one another very seldom.

12 Q. Is it true to say that you and your brother

13 Vinko did not have any civil work but that you had some

14 military occupation in that period going from

15 October '92 to April '93 and beyond?

16 A. I became a military simply because the war

17 caught up with me at Kuber, and then I, naturally,

18 became a soldier.

19 Q. Could you tell us when, at what time you were

20 mobilised?

21 A. When the war broke out, due to the

22 circumstances.

23 Q. Could you be more specific as to the period

24 or as to the date when you were mobilised?

25 A. As of the day when the Muslims attacked us on

1 Kuber.

2 Q. So you were mobilised on the 16th of April,

3 1993?

4 A. Yes, quite.

5 Q. Since April 1993, you had some military

6 activity since you were keeping the guard on the front

7 line; isn't that so?

8 A. But it was on our own initiative. It was not

9 any kind of organisation.

10 Q. Under such circumstances, is it right to say

11 that the concept of mobilisation is a very formal one

12 but it didn't change anything in practice on the

13 ground; is that so?

14 A. I didn't understand your question.

15 Q. I'll move on to another question. Do you

16 know Zeljo Vidovic?

17 A. No. Yes, I do. I do know one. He has a

18 bakery in Vitez and has a brother called Bruno, a

19 relative of mine.

20 Q. Excuse me. So Zeljo Vidovic is one of your

21 cousins, is that so?

22 A. Yes. Yes, he is.

23 Q. Did you know where he was, your cousin Zeljo,

24 on the 16th of April, 1993?

25 A. Vidovic. Zeljo Vidovic.

1 Q. Indeed. Where was Zeljo Vidovic on the 16th

2 of April, 1993?

3 A. I don't know, because he lives in Vitez and I

4 lived down there. I was on Kuber anyway. I haven't

5 the slightest, even where my parents were let alone.

6 Q. Witness, you told us that on the 13th of

7 April, 1993, you were friends with Zarko Kristo, and

8 because Kuber was a nice location, you went on guard

9 duty there, on that location, but you didn't have any

10 uniform, you said, and you didn't have weapons because

11 there were too many of you to have enough weapons for

12 everybody. Did I understand you properly?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You told us that Zeljo Livancic and Ivo

15 Pranjkovic were responsible or were in charge of Kuber?

16 A. Yes, yes.

17 Q. On what grounds did they have responsibility

18 for that location? Were they soldiers?

19 A. Well, yes, like we were. Every village has

20 some kind of a mayor, the president of the

21 neighbourhood community, and perhaps he assigned

22 duties, but nobody had a uniform, not even the two of

23 them.

24 Q. Could you be more specific, witness? What

25 does the president of a local community or a

1 neighbourhood community have to carry out as duties?

2 A. Well, regardless of what one does, what kind

3 of activity is involved, he always had said whether one

4 builds a road or does something else in the village.

5 He is the one who is charge. I mean, the president of

6 that community, the mayor of that village.

7 Q. That was the case for Zeljo Livancic, was

8 it?

9 A. Yes. Yes, on Kuber.

10 Q. Witness, before you went to Kuber in

11 April 1993, had you, prior to that, been subject to

12 military training?

13 A. No, and I did not serve even that army.

14 Q. The reason why I am asking this question is

15 because Mirsad Ahmic made a statement in Zenica in

16 November 1994, and he said several months before the

17 conflict you and your brother followed some training,

18 did some training Celiste in Nadioci. Is anything

19 funny about this?

20 A. Celiste. Never heard of it. Don't know

21 where it is. We did not go to train. My brother was

22 trained with the Yugoslav People's Army where he

23 served, and I did not serve even that army.

24 Q. Prior to the 16th of April, 1993, did you

25 sometimes go to the Bungalow? Are you familiar with

1 the Bungalow?

2 A. I do, yes. I know where it is. But if

3 you're asking me if I ever went there, I didn't.

4 Q. You mentioned the events that took place on

5 the 20th of October, 1992. Where were you on that

6 day?

7 A. You mean when the conflict broke out? I

8 didn't understand the question. I couldn't hear it

9 properly.

10 Q. Well, you referred to what happened on the

11 20th of October 1992 in Ahmici at the time of the first

12 conflict, and my question is: Where were you on that

13 day?

14 A. I was at home. I was asleep, and I was

15 aroused by the detonation.

16 Q. What did you do during that day? Did you

17 take part in the events that took place then?

18 A. No, because I did not know what was going

19 on. The checkpoint was a bit further away from my

20 house and that was where the conflict started.

21 Q. The reason why I am asking this question is

22 because Salih Ahmic, a witness, said to the

23 investigating magistrate, in December 1994, said that

24 he had seen you shooting towards the house of

25 Mr. Ahmic, thereby endangering the lives of his family

1 members.

2 JUDGE CASSESE: Is there an objection?

3 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: I would just like to

4 intervene. I don't know what witnesses the Prosecutor

5 is quoting. He's putting forward names. We didn't

6 hear any of them. He mentioned an Ahmic a moment ago,

7 we were not even able to catch the name, who had

8 allegedly said some things. But I don't know where the

9 Prosecutor gets this information from, because they

10 were not witnesses brought to testify. So if he has

11 some other statements that we do not have, we're not

12 able to follow. This last man, Ahmic, that was

13 mentioned, we cannot follow that either because we do

14 not have the information.

15 MR. TERRIER: I do admit there is a problem

16 as to the method, but it is also a problem that the

17 Prosecution are faced with. We do have witnesses who,

18 when it comes to sort of second-ranking questions,

19 happen to mention witnesses or have mentioned the

20 witness who is now testifying, and it so happens that

21 such witness statements are in contradiction -- I mean,

22 the written statements are quite contradictory to what

23 is being stated here by the witness.

24 I shall, of course, comply with what your

25 decision may be, but I don't know how to go about

1 this. Are we supposed to -- are we not allowed to

2 mention the witness statements that we have, or do we

3 have to, before we mention anything about them, hand

4 them over to the Defence? I know it is a problem as to

5 the method. There may be a problem. It may be

6 difficult for the Defence, given the method I'm

7 applying. This is the reason why I shall comply with

8 your decisions or instructions.

9 I have several written statements by

10 witnesses. They were never disclosed to the Defence,

11 it is true, because they do not relate to the situation

12 of the accused, but they do mention the witness and his

13 behaviour but in a very different light from what he

14 has said to this Tribunal. So I shall comply with your

15 decision.

16 (Trial Chamber confers)

17 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Terrier, we believe that

18 this has to do with statements which you have not

19 disclosed to the Defence, if I'm not mistaken, so you

20 have to avoid mentioning such statements. However, you

21 might possibly use information gained from such

22 statements in order to put questions to the witness in

23 order to challenge specific facts he has stated,

24 because we believe that the questions you have asked or

25 are about to ask may be relevant as to the credibility

1 of this witness, but do not mention a statement or a

2 name.

3 MR. TERRIER: Well, there are three types of

4 statements which I am planning to put to the witness in

5 this cross-examination. There are statements that are

6 here and under oath in this Tribunal. No problem with

7 regard to them.

8 Then there is the written statements

9 disclosed to the witness under Rule 66. Some of the

10 witnesses appeared but did not mention anything

11 specific as to this witness because there was no reason

12 for mentioning that.

13 These are statements which the Defence have.

14 There are also statements which the Defence don't

15 have. So I shall comply with your instructions, Your

16 Honours, as to the statements that have not been

17 disclosed to the Defence.

18 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

19 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Mr. President, I

20 apologise, but I'd like to clear up one matter so that

21 we know how to behave in the future. The problem will

22 arise of some statements which were handed to the

23 Defence counsel, but those witnesses were not brought

24 before the Trial Chamber so that they did not give

25 their testimony in front of you. So we were not able

1 to conduct a cross-examination or bring some facts into

2 doubt. So if the Prosecutor is going to ask some

3 questions as something being proved by the witnesses,

4 and it is a witness who has not given testimony and who

5 has just handed in his statement, then by quoting, in

6 the way the Prosecutor does, this can be brought into

7 question, and that he is bringing this as a fait

8 accompli to the court and the witness.

9 So we do agree he can, of course, use all the

10 information he has in his statements but without

11 quoting names and going into detail as he has been

12 doing, because the Defence was not allowed to do this

13 either.

14 MR. TERRIER: Your Honour, I am somewhat

15 taken aback, I am surprised, because I think that if I

16 state the name of the person that gave the statements

17 or just mentioned the source, this would be a

18 guarantee, some kind of warranty for the Defence, who

19 are then able to verify what I have said. As long as

20 they have documents at their disposal, that must be

21 some kind of a guarantee. Well, if they don't want

22 that, well, I shall do without it. But I do think that

23 this is a guarantee that is given to them.

24 There is another problem not mentioned by

25 Mrs. Glumac.

1 Witnesses who have been heard by this

2 Tribunal but who have made several written statements

3 in which they mentioned facts that were not mentioned

4 during the hearings, of course, not each and every

5 witness was asked to repeat every single word they had

6 said in their written statements, they only were asked

7 to mention what was relevant at the time; therefore,

8 the information they had regarding the accused but not

9 related to everybody that might have played some part

10 during those events.

11 So I have the feeling that if we want to make

12 sure that the rights of the Defence are respected, they

13 want to be able to check where the documents come from;

14 and if I have done so, if I have given them this

15 information as to the source, I should be able to give

16 them the name.

17 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Radovic?

18 MR. RADOVIC: Mr. President, I cannot agree

19 with what the Prosecutor has stated, first of all,

20 because we do not know whether the witness quoted by

21 the Prosecutor would give the same testimony in this

22 court of law as he did to the investigators in Zenica.

23 If we were to follow up on what the

24 Prosecutor has said and that we should believe what the

25 witness said to the investigator in Zenica, then the

1 Prosecutor could give up all [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted] than

4 the one he gave later on. So that particular witness

5 is not repeating that statement to this Trial Chamber,

6 and as we cannot examine the witness to see whether it

7 is a trustworthy witness or not, then the Prosecutor

8 cannot pull out papers and, on the basis of those

9 papers, consider that what is written there is

10 trustworthy and true and correct. That is why we

11 object to that line of questioning by the Prosecutor

12 and consider that that infringes upon the principle of

13 the public character and direct character of this trial

14 and that he presents evidence for which nobody knows

15 whether they would be confirmed in court or not. That

16 is why we would like you to refute that attempt made by

17 the Prosecutor which places us into a completely

18 unequal position because we do not have the possibility

19 of ascertaining the trustworthiness of the witness

20 because they are witnesses from the Muslim territory

21 who do not wish contact with us at all.

22 That would be all. Thank you.

23 MR. TERRIER: Well, Mr. Radovic has just said

24 that I maintain or affirm specific facts on the

25 strength of documents that were not or could not be

1 cross-examined. I'm not affirming anything. The only

2 thing I do is put questions and show the witness

3 statements that are contrary to what he says, and I

4 hope that the truth will emerge from this

5 confrontation: between what he says here at the

6 hearing and what is being said in the statements.

7 On the other hand, I think that the Defence

8 have had written documents referring to the written

9 statements I have mentioned, and that is a guarantee

10 that the adversarial system is not being jeopardised

11 here.

12 [redacted]

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24 [redacted], whenever we have a witness in

25 front of us, we would have to ask him or her about

1 anything or everything possible that might have some

2 relevance later on. I think we must remain within

3 boundaries. We must allow each party to express

4 themselves. We must make it possible for the Defence

5 to examine, to have a look at the documents used by the

6 Prosecution.

7 I do think that there is a problem when I

8 mention a document here in this cross-examination, a

9 document which is not known to the Defence, and I

10 believe that there is a problem; but if I mention a

11 document that has been disclosed to the Defence several

12 months ago, then I remain within the boundaries of the

13 adversarial system and I am not prejudicing at all the

14 Defence's rights.

15 (Trial Chamber confers)

16 JUDGE CASSESE: Let us come back to the three

17 main types of documents mentioned by Mr. Terrier.

18 It goes without saying that as to the

19 category of witnesses -- sorry -- as to the people

20 interviewed by the Prosecution and whose statements

21 were not disclosed to the Defence, the Prosecutor is

22 not in a position to ask any question mentioning the

23 name of the person who was interviewed. So we have

24 already decided that then your questions should relate

25 to facts without your mentioning the source of your

1 information because the documents are not familiar to

2 the Defence.

3 There is another category of documents. They

4 relate to witnesses whose statements were disclosed to

5 the Defence and the witnesses were witnesses, they

6 testified here, they were examined and cross-examined,

7 even if the cross-examination did not relate to the

8 facts mentioned here right now by the Prosecutor.

9 Mr. Terrier is right. Whenever he has a new witness,

10 he can't ask every possible question of this witness

11 thinking that these questions might be of relevance in

12 the future.

13 Now, what are we going to do with regard to

14 the third category, i.e., people whose statements were

15 disclosed to the Defence by the Prosecution, but since

16 the witness was not summoned, the Defence were not in a

17 position to cross-examine that witness? We believe

18 that Mr. Terrier is entitled to ask questions whilst he

19 mentions the source of his information because this is

20 not evidence. He is going to quote a statement and not

21 the evidence as provided by the witness at the hearing,

22 in the courtroom. The statement as such is not

23 evidence; it is a source which is likely to be

24 challenged, and so it has the value it has as such.

25 The value will be assessed by the Trial Chamber in the

1 light of the evidence adduced in court. Through the

2 system of cross-examination, evidence is, as it were,

3 created during the hearing; it doesn't exist as such

4 before the hearing.

5 So in the light of this all, we believe that

6 the Prosecution is entitled to ask questions because

7 the Defence must be aware of the limited probative

8 value of a written statement mentioned while the

9 witness who provided the statement did not testify.

10 Since that person did not testify, we feel that the

11 statement does not have the same weight as another

12 piece of evidence. It may be used in order to

13 challenge facts. And there I do agree with Mr. Terrier

14 too. This should be seen as a kind of guarantee for

15 the Defence because a specific statement is being

16 mentioned, coming from a person known to the Defence;

17 that means that the Defence is given some guarantees.

18 Mr. Radovic?

19 MR. RADOVIC: Mr. President, we did not

20 expect that decision on the part of the Trial Chamber

21 with regard to this point in question, and we are going

22 to use our right to complain. So much for me. Thank

23 you.

24 JUDGE CASSESE: Fine. Mr. Par?

25 MR. PAR: If I may, I have just one question

1 with respect to this decision. I'm not quite clear on

2 one point.

3 When we're talking about a statement from the

4 third category, does that mean that the Prosecutor can

5 quote the statement as a source and read out a part

6 only with regard to the witness he is questioning and

7 not with regard to the other contents of the

8 statement?

9 I don't know if I was clear enough.

10 We have had an example here today. For

11 example, the witness is being faced with part of a

12 statement. Now, is it just part of that statement

13 which refers to the witness, or can we interpret the

14 statement in a broader fashion?

15 I don't know whether I'm being clear enough.

16 JUDGE CASSESE: Our decision was as follows:

17 The Prosecutor is free to challenge a specific fact

18 from a witness by saying that somebody else, thereby

19 quotes the name of that somebody else, he can even

20 quote or read out part of the statement: "That witness

21 said that, on that specific day, you were somewhere

22 else, for instance, in Pirici and not in Kuber." So

23 that is challenging a fact. The witness, and that will

24 be evidence, can say yea or nay to that fact, can

25 challenge it or confirm it. So the evidence is then

1 adduced, and it is the result from what the witness may

2 have said. So the challenging, by the Prosecutor, of a

3 specific fact whilst the source of that fact is being

4 quoted, that is done to prompt the witness to say what

5 he or she knows about a specific fact, to supply their

6 version of the facts.

7 MR. PAR: Yes, I have understood you, but I

8 don't know if you have understood me.

9 Mr. Terrier now, when he quotes this part,

10 does he only say that "For you, Mr. Vidovic, that

11 witness said the following"? Or can he take the

12 statement and say, "The witness spoke about other

13 individuals," and so on and so forth? So does he just

14 face the witness with the concrete fact that he wishes

15 him to give an answer to?

16 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, yes, only regarding that

17 witness because it is a specific challenge which is

18 aimed -- I want to repeat that -- aimed at prompting

19 the witness to express himself or herself on a fact

20 that may have been challenged. I hope you grasp the

21 difference between the probative value of a written

22 statement coming from that specific person who was not

23 called as a witness, who has not been cross-examined,

24 the difference between that and what a witness who is

25 in court can say as to a specific fact.

1 MR. PAR: Thank you very much. I understand

2 now. Thank you very much, yes.

3 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Terrier, you

4 have the floor.

5 MR. TERRIER: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Q. Witness, I would like to call you to

7 attention. Did you take part in the events of the 20th

8 of October, 1992, in Ahmici, whilst you were armed?

9 Did you shoot at houses? Did you partake in any kind

10 of military action on that day in Ahmici?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Witness, later on, after the 20th of October,

13 1992, and for several days, did you hold a checkpoint

14 at the entrance to Ahmici whilst you were wearing a

15 uniform and were armed?

16 A. No. There was a row of houses. Nobody was

17 there. I guarded the houses, my father and I, and my

18 mother was there. My mother tended to her cow until

19 she returned a day or two later.

20 Q. So did you carry out guard duty armed and in

21 uniform?

22 A. No, because I didn't have a rifle or weapons

23 at all or a uniform.

24 Q. Witness, you told us that on the 13th of

25 April, 1993, you went to Kuber, and that in the night

1 of the 15th to the 16th of April, you were on guard

2 duty from 2.00 to 4.00 in the morning, that you went to

3 sleep at 4.00 in the morning, that you woke up towards

4 5.00 or 6.00 in the morning, and you were attacked

5 around 10.00. Is that what you said?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. When you woke up around 5.30, between 5.30

8 and 6.00, did you hear the sound of the conflict, as it

9 were, that was happening in Ahmici at the time?

10 A. No, nothing. Just the grenade, until it

11 fell. We couldn't see anything down there. There was

12 a heavy fog.

13 Q. I didn't say seeing anything, I said hearing

14 anything. I mean, the fog shouldn't have prevented you

15 from hearing what was happening in Ahmici at the time.

16 A. We didn't hear anything, nor did anybody tell

17 us anything.

18 Q. Witness --

19 MR. TERRIER: One moment, please. Your

20 Honour, I am going to mention the names of a couple of

21 witnesses who testified. They were protected

22 witnesses. I think we'd better move to private session

23 or we'll have the break now.

24 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Obviously you have

25 several other questions.

1 MR. TERRIER: That's right. Yes. Most of

2 them relate to protected witnesses.

3 JUDGE CASSESE: We'll move on to private

4 session or closed session, but we'll have a 30-minute

5 break first and then we can resume in closed session.

6 --- Recess taken at 10.26 a.m.

7 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

8 (Private session)

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4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

5 11.24 a.m., to be reconvened on

6 Thursday, the 8th day of July, 1999, at

7 9.00 a.m.

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