1. 1 Wednesday, 14th July, 1999

    2 (Open session)

    3 (The accused entered court)

    4 (The witness entered court)

    5 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

    6 THE REGISTRAR: Case IT-95-16-T, the

    7 Prosecutor versus Zoran Kupreskic, Mirjan Kupreskic,

    8 Vlatko Kupreskic, Drago Josipovic, Dragan Papic, and

    9 Vladimir Santic.

    10 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning. Before we

    11 start our proceedings, I would like to rectify an

    12 inconsistency which slipped into our ruling, the ruling

    13 we made yesterday, about the conditions under which the

    14 Prosecutor may use witness statements in

    15 cross-examining the accused when they testify. This,

    16 of course, is slightly inconsistent with the previous

    17 ruling of our Trial Chamber.

    18 Now, let me point out that, of course, we

    19 intended to refer to those statements which have been

    20 handed over to Defence counsel but have not been used

    21 because the person in question has not been called to

    22 testify. I referred wrongly to undisclosed

    23 statements. It goes without saying that in light of

    24 our previous ruling, the undisclosed statements may not

    25 be used at all. So, therefore, our ruling of yesterday



  2. 1applies, as I say, to those statements which have been

    2 handed over to Defence counsel but have so far not been

    3 used in court simply because the person in question has

    4 not been called to testify, and for those statements,

    5 the Prosecutor, if he intends to use them, has got to

    6 request leave of the Trial Chamber before proceeding to

    7 use those statements.

    8 All right. I hope this is clear, and, of

    9 course, I apologise for this slight inconsistency, but

    10 it is important now to have clarified the matter.

    11 I see that General Blaskic is here with us.

    12 I am very appreciative of his complying with the order

    13 of our Trial Chamber. Good morning.

    14 Before we proceed, I also see --

    15 THE WITNESS: Good morning.

    16 JUDGE CASSESE: -- I recognise two Defence

    17 counsel. Mr. Hayman?

    18 MR. HAYMAN: Thank you. Good morning,

    19 Mr. President. My name is, as I think you know, and

    20 may I say, it is nice to see you, Mr. President,

    21 Russell Hayman, and I am appearing together with Anto

    22 Nobilo. We are counsel for General Tihomir Blaskic.

    23 Of course, General Blaskic has complied with

    24 your summons and is here this morning. If you will

    25 allow, I would like, though, to briefly state his



  3. 1position with respect to your summons.

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes.

    3 MR. HAYMAN: Thank you. General Blaskic has

    4 no stake in this matter, and he makes himself available

    5 to you as a witness with no personal interest in the

    6 case, but he does have an acute interest in the

    7 procedural aspects of this matter.

    8 As you may know, he is at a critical juncture

    9 in his own defence. Final briefs in his case are due

    10 in five working days. Closing argument in his case

    11 begins in seven working days. He, Mr. Nobilo, and I

    12 are working daily, 12 hours a day, on the collaborative

    13 preparation of the final phase of his Defence.

    14 Our final brief right now is 500 pages in

    15 length. We have to cover 50 pages a day to make the

    16 schedule set by the Blaskic Trial Chamber. We have

    17 been allotted two and one half days for final argument,

    18 and the preparations for that argument also are

    19 substantial.

    20 We are extremely concerned and he is

    21 concerned that the more time he spends here with you,

    22 not to demean the importance of these proceedings, but

    23 the more time that he is diverted from his own defence

    24 and he spends here, the more inequality of position or

    25 arms he is placed in with respect to the Prosecutors.



  4. 1The Prosecutors in the Blaskic case are not here.

    2 They're up in their offices working feverishly to

    3 prepare their final arguments and brief, and we are

    4 tied up here and General Blaskic is tied up here in

    5 this important matter; we're not suggesting otherwise.

    6 But the problem is, for him to be forced to, if you

    7 will, engage in, for what is to him, collateral

    8 litigation at this key juncture, puts us in a position

    9 of inequality of arms vis-a-vis the Office of the

    10 Prosecutor in the Blaskic case.

    11 It would be very unfortunate if we had to

    12 spend a significant amount of time here right now and

    13 then have to go to the Blaskic Trial Chamber and tell

    14 them we cannot adhere to the schedule they have worked

    15 so hard to set for us.

    16 We would also like to alert Your Honours to

    17 the fact that there was testimony by General Blaskic in

    18 his case with respect to three of the four documents

    19 identified in the summons that was given in closed

    20 session by order of the Blaskic Trial Chamber. For

    21 General Blaskic now to be subjected to examination on

    22 the contents of documents, those three documents, and I

    23 can identify them for you, that were the subject of

    24 both open and closed testimony, puts him in the

    25 position potentially, the perilous position, of not



  5. 1knowing whether to limit himself to the open session

    2 testimony, should he go into the closed session

    3 testimony to be fully candid, or will he be accused of

    4 contempt of court if he discloses something that was

    5 discussed in the closed session testimony in the

    6 Blaskic Trial Chamber?

    7 So we would urge that before he testifies in

    8 this case, if at all, as to the content of these three

    9 documents, that an order be obtained from the Blaskic

    10 Trial Chamber permitting him, in closed session if

    11 necessary, to be fully complete in his answers and not

    12 to be held in the precarious position of potentially

    13 committing either perjury by being incomplete or

    14 committing a contempt of the Blaskic Trial Chamber by

    15 going into closed matters.

    16 Finally, Mr. President -- thank you for

    17 indulging us -- under Rule 90(F), we would ask that any

    18 questions our client gives be afforded the full

    19 protections under Rule 90(F) which provides that a

    20 witness may decline to answer, but if compelled to

    21 answer, none of their testimony can in any way be used

    22 against them.

    23 Thank you.

    24 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    25 (Trial Chamber confers)



  6. 1JUDGE CASSESE: Let me clarify a few points.

    2 First of all, it is unusual for a witness to

    3 be here in court to give evidence assisted by Defence

    4 counsel. However, we thought that this is quite proper

    5 in this particular case because this witness is an

    6 accused in a trial, in another trial, and the trial is

    7 ongoing. So it is quite important and right for him to

    8 be assisted by Defence counsel.

    9 Second point. We feel that the Defence

    10 counsel have a right to object to questions asked to

    11 the witness, only, however, to the extent that in

    12 answering those questions, he is liable to incriminate

    13 himself. So we grant this right to Defence counsel.

    14 Another point is that, of course the witness

    15 has the right to refuse to answer any question if he

    16 feels that, by answering the question, he may

    17 incriminate himself. This is a basic right.

    18 We will also apply the Rule 90(F) as

    19 suggested by Counsel Hayman.

    20 As for the question of requesting an order

    21 from Trial Chamber I, we think that it is not necessary

    22 because we will now move into a closed session so that

    23 General Blaskic will be in a position to candidly

    24 answer all our questions. So, therefore, we will now

    25 move into closed session.



  7. 1(Closed session)

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  1. 1(redacted)

    2 (redacted)

    3 (redacted)

    4 (redacted)

    5 (redacted)

    6 (redacted)

    7 (redacted)

    8 (redacted)

    9 --- Recess taken at 10.37 a.m.

    10 --- On resuming at 11.10 a.m.

    11 (Open session)

    12 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Radovic?

    13 MR. RADOVIC: Mr. President, before we start

    14 the examination of our client Zoran Kupreskic, I would

    15 like to ask a question of the Trial Chamber and propose

    16 three things.

    17 The question is whether the Defence counsel,

    18 after the accused gives the solemn declaration, have

    19 the right to visit him in the detention unit during his

    20 testimony, before he finishes. As an accused, he has

    21 the right to be visited by his counsel, but as a

    22 witness he has no right to speak to the counsel.

    23 Also, I would like to ask the Prosecution why

    24 they gave us the statement of [redacted]. They

    25 also requested to the Trial Chamber, and this request



  2. 1was granted, that we not be allowed to contact

    2 [redacted], so we assumed that this witness would be

    3 called as a witness by the Prosecution. If this is so,

    4 we then request that we be allowed to approach

    5 [redacted] and talk to her, and we would perhaps like

    6 to call her as a witness for the Defence. She was

    7 first contacted by the Prosecution to be their

    8 witness.

    9 Also, we heard yesterday, through the

    10 Witnesses and Victims Unit, that based on an order of

    11 the Trial Chamber a certain number of documents have

    12 been taken by the Prosecution, but what I'm noticing is

    13 that every once in awhile the Prosecution is giving us

    14 certain documents, and for some of them we're grateful,

    15 but we are basically reduced to being given documents

    16 which may be exculpatory, even though we believe that

    17 we would be in a position to better judge which

    18 documents would be exculpatory.

    19 Further, I see that the Prosecution uses the

    20 documents which were compiled by the court in Zenica.

    21 Most of them were taken in 1993, which is much closer

    22 to the actual events which are part of this

    23 indictment. So they could be more authentic, and the

    24 witnesses at that time were much less exposed to all

    25 kinds of influences.



  3. 1Also, in reference to the lists of members of

    2 the HVO, and you ordered that the full list be

    3 submitted, we would also like to see the entire file

    4 from which some of these witness statements from the

    5 Zenica investigating magistrate were taken. In this

    6 way, we would be able to make our own judgements rather

    7 than rely on what the Prosecution deems is proper for

    8 them to disclose to us. Thank you.

    9 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Terrier?

    10 MR. TERRIER: I will try to answer

    11 Mr. Radovic, specifically as regards the statements of

    12 certain witnesses or documents which we are disclosing

    13 to the Defence in this trial, either because we intend

    14 to use them during a cross-examination, for instance,

    15 or based on Rule 68 of the Rules of Procedure and

    16 Evidence.

    17 If I've understood things correctly,

    18 Mr. Radovic is asking that the Prosecutor or the Office

    19 of the Prosecutor gives to the Defence all what it has

    20 and that we directly or indirectly relate it to what

    21 happened in Ahmici. I do not see the appropriateness

    22 of proceeding in that fashion, which is not provided

    23 for in the Rules. I think that we acted in accordance

    24 within the Rules of Procedure and Evidence,

    25 specifically Rule 66 and 68, even though if



  4. 1occasionally -- even if sometimes applying Rule 68 is

    2 difficult, but we have given to the Defence all the

    3 witness statements that we are planning to use, and

    4 we've even gone beyond that because we have disclosed

    5 many witness statements, that is, statements of

    6 witnesses who are not called to testify, and we

    7 disclosed, it seems to me, everything which I believed

    8 was exculpatory for the accused. Therefore, I do not

    9 believe that we can, in any appropriate way for the

    10 Defence, go beyond what we have already done to date.

    11 Mr. Radovic also said or spoke about the

    12 witness Mrs. [redacted]. We disclosed this document or

    13 that written statement to the Defence, I think it was

    14 about ten days ago or maybe two weeks, because we

    15 considered that that statement contained exculpatory

    16 material. Therefore, on the basis of Rule 68, we

    17 disclosed the statement.

    18 We also believe that it was important that

    19 the Tribunal issue guidelines or rules in order to

    20 protect that witness who claims to have been contacted

    21 on several occasions and even be subject to pressure by

    22 the Defence in order to give positive or favourable

    23 testimony for one of the accused.

    24 It seems to me the Trial Chamber is

    25 protecting the witness. I'm referring merely to the



  5. 1decision of the Trial Chamber as far as I can recall.

    2 I don't say that there was no contact to be made

    3 between the witness and the Defence and preserves the

    4 safety of the witness. I simply ask that this decision

    5 be applied both in the spirit and the letter of its

    6 text.

    7 As regards the third point of Mr. Radovic, I

    8 would like, Mr. President, to give the opinion of the

    9 Prosecutor. I think that I'm referring more to my

    10 legal background than I am to the Rules of Procedure

    11 and Evidence that are applicable in this Tribunal. I

    12 think that the relationship between the lawyer and his

    13 client are fundamental and that the freedom within this

    14 relationship, its continuity and its confidentiality

    15 guarantee the rights of the Defence and constitute even

    16 an essential right -- protection for the rights of the

    17 Defence. It seem to me that under those conditions, it

    18 would be natural for an exception to be made by the

    19 Trial Chamber in respect of its rules between the

    20 conflict of calling a witness and the witness, and the

    21 free discussions between the lawyer and the accused who

    22 has become a witness during the trial.

    23 I think that I am speaking for law as it

    24 applies in my country and others. This is, therefore,

    25 done in a legitimate and lawful manner. Thank you.



  6. 1MR. RADOVIC: Mr. President, my apologies. I

    2 did not receive an answer from the Prosecutor whether

    3 he intends to call Mrs. [redacted] as a witness. We do

    4 accept that what he disclosed is predominantly

    5 exculpatory and we are grateful for, that. But if he

    6 is not going to call Mrs. [redacted] as a witness, I

    7 see no reason why the Defence cannot talk to her,

    8 because I don't think that anybody's applying that the

    9 Defence is trying to put any pressure on her.

    10 Based on what we learned from her statement,

    11 we may be in a position to call her, and I can also say

    12 that we already have certain indications that not

    13 everything that is stated in this witness statement is

    14 truthful. But all we are asking at this point is that

    15 the Defence lawyers be allowed to contact Mrs.

    16 [redacted].

    17 MR. TERRIER: Honestly speaking, I cannot

    18 give an answer to Mr. Radovic that he's seeking today,

    19 insofar as in the rebuttal phase of the trial we will

    20 only call Mrs. [redacted] if she is in a position to

    21 contradict statements that were made. I believe that

    22 we must wait for the explanations which are given to us

    23 by the accused, that is, the witnesses who are going to

    24 express themselves, specifically one of them, and it is

    25 only after that that we'll know whether it will be



  7. 1appropriate or even possible to call her as a witness.

    2 MS. SLOKOVIC-GLUMAC: Mr. President, if I can

    3 interrupt for a moment. This position of the

    4 Prosecutor is somewhat strange. He reserves himself

    5 the right to a certain witness who, according to him,

    6 has some exculpatory evidence, and we are unable to

    7 call this witness before he makes his decision. So

    8 this I find a bit strange, how he can decide after the

    9 testimony of the accused whether he needs this witness

    10 or not.

    11 We would obviously like, before the end of

    12 our case-in-chief, to call all the witnesses which may

    13 be useful for our Defence. So I think that the

    14 decision should be taken now. Thank you.

    15 (Trial Chamber confers)

    16 JUDGE CASSESE: Now, on the first question,

    17 whether or not Defence counsel may speak to the accused

    18 who testify in court after the accused make the solemn

    19 declaration. Yes, we agree with the Prosecutor. This

    20 is a basic right. We make an exception. Therefore,

    21 after, even after the making of a solemn declaration by

    22 an accused who is testifying in court, Defence counsel

    23 may contact the accused in question in his capacity as

    24 a witness.

    25 Second point about Mrs. [redacted]. We rule



  8. 1that the Defence counsel are entitled to contact

    2 Mrs. [redacted], and if they wish, they may call her as

    3 a witness, a Defence witness.

    4 Third point, the documents to be handed over

    5 by the Prosecution. On this point, we feel that the

    6 Prosecution has fully complied with Rules 66 and 68;

    7 therefore, there is no point in suggesting that they

    8 should hand over all the documents in their possession

    9 to the Defence.

    10 This is our ruling, and I think we can now

    11 move on.

    12 Yes, Counsel Pavkovic?

    13 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, I have a

    14 technical issue to raise. On 9 July [interpretation

    15 error], a witness for the defence of Vladimir Santic

    16 testified. The testimony is contained in transcript

    17 pages 10499 to 10525. The entire session covering this

    18 testimony was closed. However, I don't think that the

    19 witness received any kind of pseudonym which I need in

    20 order to refer to this witness's testimony. I think

    21 that this was a simple omission, and I would request

    22 that it be corrected now.

    23 JUDGE CASSESE: Are you requesting that the

    24 witness be given a pseudonym?

    25 MR. PAVKOVIC: Yes, Mr. President.



  9. 1JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. We will ask the

    2 registrar to check and to decide on the pseudonym.

    3 Yes, Counsel Radovic?

    4 MR. RADOVIC: Another technical issue. The

    5 witness who I mentioned, I don't know what protective

    6 measures may have been given to her, but I believe that

    7 her name should be omitted, that is, I submit that her

    8 name should be redacted from the transcript. I think

    9 that the Prosecution would also agree with that. I

    10 believe that she had asked for certain protective

    11 measures, including that we do not contact her, and I

    12 think that we can redact the name and I think that we

    13 will all know who we are referring to.

    14 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. All right. Thank you.

    15 Yes, we will do so.

    16 So it is settled. So a pseudonym, we will

    17 give a pseudonym to the witness who testified on the

    18 9th of July (sic) in closed session and then we will

    19 also use a pseudonym for the lady we mentioned before.

    20 All right. And we will redact all the passages where

    21 her name has been mentioned today because we are in

    22 open session.

    23 Counsel Pavkovic?

    24 MR. PAVKOVIC: Mr. President, the

    25 transcript -- I believe that there may have been a



  10. 1mistake. This was a witness who testified on the 5th

    2 rather than the 9th of July.

    3 JUDGE CASSESE: The 5th. All right.

    4 MR. PAVKOVIC: The first day we had

    5 session -- the first session last week.

    6 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. The

    7 interpretation, we heard the 9th of July. All right.

    8 So it is the 5th of July.

    9 Counsel Slokovic-Glumac, are you going to

    10 call -- or Counsel Radovic? Counsel Radovic.

    11 MR. RADOVIC: We can begin with the

    12 examination of Zoran Kupreskic as a witness. I would

    13 also like to request the usher to please produce -- I

    14 think it's Exhibit P2. It is the aerial photograph of

    15 Ahmici.

    16 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Radovic, should we

    17 proceed in open session, and if need be, you will ask

    18 for a closed session or for a private session?

    19 MR. RADOVIC: Open. Perhaps when I mention

    20 certain names, and I don't know what the position of

    21 the Prosecution is going to be on those, I will just

    22 ask for a private session but for very brief periods,

    23 and I do have a bad experience with mentioning names

    24 that I shouldn't, so I have to be very careful.

    25 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Zoran



  11. 1Kupreskic, by now you know the procedure. Could you

    2 please make the solemn declaration?

    3 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, I solemnly

    4 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

    5 and nothing but the truth.

    6 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be

    7 seated. Mr. Kupreskic, if you, at any moment, feel

    8 tired or uptight, please tell us, and we will break for

    9 a few minutes or for however long you need.

    10 Counsel Radovic?

    11 WITNESS: ZORAN KUPRESKIC

    12 Examined by Mr. Radovic:

    13 Q. Mr. Zoran Kupreskic, finally we have been

    14 given an opportunity for you to say what you have

    15 wanted to say for a long time now, but would you

    16 introduce yourself, please?

    17 A. My name is Zoran Kupreskic. I was born on

    18 the 23rd of September, 1958, in Vitez.

    19 Q. The family you were born to, what is that

    20 composed of?

    21 A. My family was composed of my father, my

    22 mother, and they had three children: myself, my

    23 brother, and my sister.

    24 Q. What was your father's name?

    25 A. My father was Anto, my mother Lucija, my



  12. 1brother Mirjan and sister Zorica.

    2 Q. In 1992, were you still living in your family

    3 house, your parents' house, or had you already built

    4 your own house?

    5 A. No, in 1992, I had my own house.

    6 Q. Who did you live in your house with?

    7 A. I lived in my house with my wife and our

    8 three children.

    9 Q. What is your wife's name and what are your

    10 children's names, and when you speak about your

    11 children, please tell us how old each child is when you

    12 give its name.

    13 A. My wife's name is Mira, she was born in 1963;

    14 our eldest's son's name is Mladen, he was born in 1985;

    15 the middle son is Davor, he was born in 1989; and the

    16 youngest son is Anto, born in 1992.

    17 Q. I would now like you to rise and to show us

    18 on this map -- actually, it's not a map, it's an aerial

    19 photograph, and show where your parents' house lies and

    20 then where your own house is, the one you built.

    21 Please stand in such a fashion as to allow

    22 the Trial Chamber to be able to see the photograph. So

    23 we are just going to ask you some specific features and

    24 we're going to ask you to circle some of these parts.

    25 A. I'm afraid I'm listening to the English



  13. 1interpretation through my headset.

    2 Q. Well, you'll have to change the channel.

    3 Perhaps it would be best for you to listen to me

    4 directly. Indicate your parents' house, please.

    5 A. This is my parents' house (indicating), and

    6 my house is 20 or 30 metres below their house, here

    7 (indicating).

    8 Q. The position where your house is located and

    9 your parents' house, are there any other Croatian

    10 houses in the vicinity?

    11 A. These are the Kupreskic houses: my parents'

    12 house; my brother lived in that house; this is my own

    13 house, opposite Ivica Kupreskic's house or my uncle;

    14 then there is Josip's house, Ivica's brother, that is;

    15 then Branko's house, Ivica's second brother; and my

    16 uncle's old house, Ivo Kupreskic.

    17 Q. When you say "the Kupreskic houses," what do

    18 you mean? Are they all the houses you enumerated just

    19 now?

    20 A. Yes, they are. And down below we have Vlatko

    21 Kupreskic's house, but that is still lower down, it is

    22 somewhere in this area (indicating).

    23 Q. So the houses that we have referred to as the

    24 Kupreskic houses, are they nearer to the part of the

    25 village populated by the Muslims, or do you have -- is



  14. 1your next-door neighbour a Croatian house?

    2 A. The Kupreskic houses border on the Muslim

    3 village, and here you can see that these are all Muslim

    4 houses, and, in fact, the Kupreskic houses lie in that

    5 particular part of the village which is called Srednji

    6 Pirici, and they territorially gravitate towards --

    7 that is to say, the Muslim houses and the Croatian

    8 houses are together. We have the first Croatian houses

    9 here, Sakic houses, although there is 300 to 400 metres

    10 between them because there is a sort of wood, and we

    11 are separated from the other Croatian houses.

    12 Q. If I understand you correctly, your houses

    13 are in the complex of the Muslim houses?

    14 A. Yes, that's right.

    15 Q. Please take a look at the main road now, that

    16 is to say, the road which goes off from the main road

    17 towards Ahmici, and tell me, on the right-hand side of

    18 the road, if you're moving towards Ahmici, whose are

    19 those houses there, on the right-hand side of the

    20 road -- no, up above?

    21 A. This is the main communication from Busovaca

    22 to Vitez, and this is the road which enters Ahmici

    23 (indicating). On the right-hand side, on the right of

    24 that road, are all Muslim houses. As we go upwards,

    25 this is the PP Sutra warehouse, and on the right-hand



  15. 1side are the Muslim houses. There is my father's house

    2 and Vlatko's house of the Croatian houses. All the

    3 rest are Muslim houses.

    4 Q. Would you enumerate for me, please, now your

    5 Muslim neighbours and indicate where their houses lie?

    6 A. My nearest Muslim neighbours are -- if we

    7 take it in order, we have Enver Sehic up here

    8 (indicating), followed by Alaman Ahmic with his son.

    9 There was a house there, newly built, her son built it,

    10 but I don't think they actually lived in it yet. Then

    11 there was Redzib Ahmic, Meho Hrustanovic, Krdzilic --

    12 we called him Krdzo, but Krdzilic was his surname. I

    13 don't know his name. Sakib Ahmic, Sakib's son Sukrija.

    14 And those were, for the most part, the houses that

    15 existed there.

    16 Q. Now please show us the nearest Croat houses

    17 and give us the names of the owners.

    18 A. Are you thinking of the Kupreskic houses?

    19 Q. No. I know where the Kupreskic houses are

    20 but the nearest other Croatian houses.

    21 A. We have Mirko Vidovic's house up here, that

    22 is to say, lower down here; then there is Mirko's

    23 mother's house, she had a house there and so did Dragan

    24 Vidovic and his parents, and towards Zume, there would

    25 be Sakics and Pudzine Kuce, Pudzine houses.



  16. 1Q. Would you speak a little more slowly because

    2 the interpreters won't be able to follow you. Thank

    3 you. With that, we conclude that part of the

    4 questioning.

    5 Tell us, please, now, in Ahmici, do you know

    6 whether there was a mosque there?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. How many mosques?

    9 A. There was one mosque with a minaret and one

    10 did not have a minaret, that is to say, both were under

    11 construction. The one with the minaret had almost been

    12 completed whereas the one in upper Ahmic did not have a

    13 minaret and that was still under cross-examination.

    14 Q. Which of those two mosques was built first?

    15 A. I don't remember exactly, but I think that it

    16 was the upper mosque that was started first but that

    17 the lower mosque was completed first. I'm not quite

    18 sure. I think that's how it was.

    19 Q. Tell us, please, how come that in one village

    20 there were mosques?

    21 A. Two mosques.

    22 Q. Yes, two mosques.

    23 A. Well, I know that there was some problems

    24 between the upper part of the village and the lower

    25 part of the village with respect to where Muslim



  17. 1religious customs would be held, and the person living

    2 down below was a relatively rich man, we called him the

    3 Hadzija, and he did his hajj to Mecca, you know, the

    4 custom when the Muslims make a pilgrimage to Mecca. He

    5 decided after that to build a mosque, he was rich, and

    6 the villagers decided to help him. What happened was

    7 that the village was divided. Some wanted the mosque

    8 to be in the upper part of the village, others wanted

    9 it to be in the lower part of the village. So that is

    10 how two mosques came into being.

    11 Q. In your village, did a Catholic church exist?

    12 A. No, there was never a church there.

    13 Q. And did you attend mass?

    14 A. Yes, we did go to mass.

    15 Q. Which church did you belong to?

    16 A. Well, we went to mass according to our own

    17 will and volition. It wasn't compulsory. We held our

    18 mass at the Catholic cemetery and at the railway

    19 station. When you go to Vitez, it is two and a half or

    20 three kilometres away from Ahmici towards Vitez. That

    21 was where the church was.

    22 Q. Would you describe to us, please, your

    23 schooling?

    24 A. May I sit down?

    25 Q. Yes. I beg your pardon. Please do take a



  18. 1seat. I thought as I am standing, you might stand as

    2 well.

    3 Would you describe to us the schooling you've

    4 had? Where did you go to primary school?

    5 A. I did four years of primary school at the

    6 primary school in Ahmici. The next four years of

    7 primary schooling, because we had eight years of

    8 primary schooling, the school was at the station near

    9 the church. It was a one building leaning on the next

    10 building.

    11 My secondary schooling was in Travnik, as a

    12 machine technician, and the machine engineering faculty

    13 I completed in Zenica from 1978 to 1982. Those were my

    14 university years.

    15 Q. What kind of pupil were you?

    16 A. You mean whether I was good or bad?

    17 Q. Yes.

    18 A. Well, at the time we had marks ranging from 1

    19 to 5. I was -- I either had a 4 or a 5, ranging

    20 between very good and excellent. Those were the

    21 levels.

    22 Q. When you graduated, did you gain the title of

    23 graduate engineer?

    24 A. Yes, I was a graduate engineer. That was the

    25 kind of title and that was on the rank of university.



  19. 1Q. Yes.

    2 A. You did this for four years and then you have

    3 your thesis, you write your thesis.

    4 Q. Tell us, please, while you went to school did

    5 you go to a uni-national school or a mixed school? I'm

    6 not thinking of male/female, but I mean with members of

    7 different ethnic groups, a multi-ethnic school.

    8 A. Yes, they were mixed. That is to say, we

    9 never looked at any difference with regard to

    10 nationality or ethnicity, we were all mixed.

    11 Q. What about the composition of the teachers,

    12 the teaching staff, ethnically speaking?

    13 A. The same thing. They were all like the

    14 pupils.

    15 Q. So in the course of your schooling you had

    16 the chance of mixing with children of other ethnic

    17 groups, if I understand you correctly.

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. Did you ever have any problems with your

    20 friends in school?

    21 A. I can't ever recall having any problems with

    22 regard to that.

    23 Q. During your schooling, did you have friends,

    24 or good colleagues, or individuals who you would learn

    25 with together who were members of another nationality?



  20. 1A. Yes. In that period, nobody separated

    2 anything of that kind. When somebody mentioned a

    3 Muslim name, nobody thought of it as a Muslim name, it

    4 was just another person.

    5 Q. What about in the village itself? Were you

    6 friends with boys who were not of the Croatian

    7 ethnicity?

    8 A. Yes. The same as school. That was quite

    9 normal. We would all play together, go about together

    10 and so on, socialise.

    11 Q. During your education, did you enter into any

    12 extra-curricular activities, any free-time activities,

    13 leisure activities?

    14 A. In my secondary school in -- I was in Novi

    15 Travnik, and that was in 1976/1977 when I was in

    16 Travnik, and at that time in Vitez the cultural and art

    17 society, the Slobodan Princip Seljo society, was formed

    18 and I was among the first to join up, myself and some

    19 others as well.

    20 Q. What did you do first of all?

    21 A. I was a dancer in the folklore section.

    22 Q. We'll go back to this folklore later on. I

    23 just wanted to hear how you started with this folklore

    24 activity of yours.

    25 Tell us, please, once you graduated, what did



  21. 1you do then, afterwards?

    2 A. After graduation, I remember that I defended

    3 my thesis and then went straight up to serve in the

    4 Yugoslav People's Army where I spent one year, that is

    5 to say, 11 months, and then returned to Vitez and

    6 started working. I got a job in a socially owned

    7 enterprise. It was called the SPS, the Slobodan

    8 Princip Seljo company in Vitez.

    9 Q. While you did your military service -- you

    10 know what I mean when I say a military speciality.

    11 Could you tell us what your particular speciality was

    12 during your year of military service?

    13 A. This was then called the ABH, the atomic

    14 biological and chemical defence department.

    15 Q. What were you trained in during this

    16 specialist course? Was it training with respect to

    17 attack or in the sense of defence and protection?

    18 A. Well, every aspect of the army had this

    19 infantry training, which is done in the first months

    20 when you come up as a recruit. However, as I was in

    21 the ABHO, we devoted most of our attention to that

    22 particular type of training, which meant protection

    23 from chemical and biological warfare, protective masks,

    24 gloves against -- protection against noxious matter,

    25 poisons, and so on and so forth.



  22. 1Q. According to your description, one would

    2 conclude that you were trained in protection, with the

    3 aspect and emphasis on defensive aspects?

    4 A. You mean in the course of my military

    5 service?

    6 Q. Yes.

    7 A. That's right.

    8 Q. What were your duties after having served

    9 your regular military service, that is to say, with

    10 respect to your duties as having completed military

    11 service?

    12 A. Well, once I finished my military service I

    13 would have to contact the defence department, the

    14 secretariat for national defence as it was called at

    15 the time, and they would then enter all your facts

    16 relating to you. You would get an army booklet, as it

    17 was called, and you would be registered at the defence

    18 department but you'd go on with your own affairs and do

    19 your job. So they would have a record of you at the

    20 defence department, what you had been trained as and so

    21 on and so forth.

    22 Q. But once you had taken off your uniform, were

    23 you still a soldier?

    24 A. No. Then you were a civilian.

    25 Q. In the previous system, when you went to the



  23. 1defence department to register there, you were given a

    2 sort of wartime assignment; is that correct?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. Did you receive your wartime assignment once

    5 you had left the JNA?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. Was this wartime assignment changed at any

    8 time in the period to come, that is to say, was it

    9 changed after the free elections took place or after

    10 the formation of the HVO or after the 20th of October

    11 and before the 16th of April? Did you understand my

    12 question? Do you know what I'm asking you?

    13 A. Yes, I do. My wartime assignment, when I

    14 returned from doing my military service in the JNA, I

    15 was given this wartime assignment on the job where I

    16 worked, and that was the one that I had until the

    17 conflict broke out. It was never changed or amended.

    18 Q. So if I understand you correctly, up until

    19 the 16th of April, 1993, according to your wartime

    20 assignment registered at the defence department in case

    21 there was a mobilisation, if everything proceeded in

    22 regular fashion, you would have to report to your place

    23 of work; is that correct?

    24 A. Yes, it is.

    25 Q. Did you go on with your folklore activities



  24. 1while you were in the JNA?

    2 A. Yes. I was a dancer, a folklore dancer, and

    3 I was at the head of this folklore section in the JNA,

    4 and I also played in the orchestra.

    5 Q. Now, you came back from the JNA and you got a

    6 job. Could you tell us where you started working and

    7 when you started working?

    8 A. I started working at the Slobodan Princip

    9 Seljo company, which is near Vitez, in May 1983.

    10 Q. What was your job? In other words, what did

    11 you do for the company?

    12 A. I worked on a trial basis, and after six

    13 months I was put in charge of maintenance of one of the

    14 company units.

    15 Q. Was this an important job in terms of the

    16 production of the company where you worked?

    17 A. The maintenance always goes hand-in-hand with

    18 the production. So if the machinery is not ready for

    19 production, there will be no production. So we were

    20 always -- we could work the best when the production

    21 was not going on.

    22 Q. So what kind of company was this company

    23 called Slobodan Princip Seljo? What did they produce?

    24 A. It is now called Vitezit, and it is now

    25 composed of three companies, Vitezit, Sintevit, and



  25. 1SPS. SPS, where I worked, produced powder.

    2 Q. Who was buying your products?

    3 A. I don't know. The whole world.

    4 Q. Were you part of the then defence

    5 department?

    6 A. Yes. It was a state company.

    7 Q. Who was the owner?

    8 A. It was the state, the former Yugoslavia.

    9 Q. When you arrived in this company, what was

    10 the composition of its work-force in terms of its

    11 ethnic background?

    12 A. Members of all ethnic groups worked there.

    13 Everybody who lived in Vitez municipality. I think

    14 that it reflected the population in terms of

    15 percentages of people who lived there.

    16 Q. Apart from the fact that the work-force came

    17 from different ethnic groups, was the management also

    18 reflecting this ethnic composition or was there any

    19 ethnic group which was more privileged?

    20 A. No. That was never done. It was just as

    21 with schools and the teachers. It was the same

    22 situation. Nobody was given preference.

    23 Q. When the first free elections were held in

    24 Bosnia and Herzegovina and the nationalist parties won,

    25 was there a change in the relation with the Croats at



  26. 1your workplace?

    2 A. No. I noticed no change. We continued doing

    3 the same things which we did before.

    4 Q. When Yugoslavia started breaking up, did the

    5 market of the company become smaller?

    6 A. Yes. I remember that certain raw materials

    7 we had been receiving from Serbia, and then it became

    8 impossible to get if from there. So that affected the

    9 production.

    10 Q. In such conditions was there a surplus of

    11 workers or employees? Did that become a new

    12 phenomenon?

    13 A. Yes. That affected not only my company but

    14 also Vitez overall. There was something that was

    15 called to be let go temporarily. It was something that

    16 was produced by that system. In other words, people

    17 were still getting a fraction of their money but they

    18 would stay home.

    19 Q. So people who were temporarily let go and

    20 they were -- as they were called, waiting, was that

    21 also spread over all ethnic groups?

    22 A. Yes, it was spread over all ethnic groups.

    23 It was considered that everybody should bear their

    24 share of the burden, regardless of what ethnic group

    25 they belong to.



  27. 1Q. During the conflict on 20 October, 1992, did

    2 Muslims continue to come to work following this

    3 conflict or not?

    4 A. They continued to come to work just as before

    5 and it went on for one week.

    6 Q. What happened to the days where people did

    7 not show up for work due to the conflict?

    8 A. The people were paid for all those days.

    9 Q. So everybody was paid?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. You mean both Muslims and Croats?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. So when you came back from your military

    14 service you continued to pursue your leisure activities

    15 too?

    16 A. Yes. I continued to pursue my interest in

    17 folklore.

    18 Q. What was the name of the group or association

    19 where you worked?

    20 A. It was called the cultural association

    21 Slobodan Princip Seljo in Vitez.

    22 Q. Was the company sponsoring that activity?

    23 A. Yes. They were the largest sponsor.

    24 Q. So it was a sponsor, as we say now?

    25 A. Yes. It was for them a means of getting some



  28. 1advertisement.

    2 Q. What ethnic groups were represented in this

    3 cultural association or group?

    4 A. I think it was the same as the population in

    5 Vitez. There were slightly more Muslims than Croats.

    6 There were also some Serbs, Romanies, and so on.

    7 Q. Until when did this situation continue in

    8 terms of the ethnic composition?

    9 A. Until 15 April, 1993.

    10 Q. There were no changes in ethnic composition?

    11 A. No, but there was a lot of fluctuation, so to

    12 speak, of membership, and girls changed more than the

    13 men did.

    14 Q. Did this cultural group have Croats in its

    15 leadership or was it run by a member of another ethnic

    16 group, and if there were any changes, tell us when did

    17 these changes come about?

    18 A. There were no changes. These positions were

    19 filled from the political structures. They were

    20 elected by --

    21 Q. You mean committee?

    22 A. Yes, by committee. There were both Croats

    23 and Muslims who were the heads of this group. I think

    24 the last one was -- I can't recall now.

    25 Q. But what was his ethnic group?



  29. 1A. Muslim. He was a Muslim. He was the

    2 director. Senad Besic is his name.

    3 Q. In terms of your repertoire, what dances did

    4 you perform? Were any dances of any ethnic group

    5 preferred over -- a favourite over another one?

    6 A. The repertory of our group had dances of all

    7 ethnic groups and people from Yugoslavia. I had

    8 personal preferences. I preferred Macedonian dances

    9 themselves because I just liked them better, but we did

    10 all of them.

    11 Q. When you performed Muslim dances and songs,

    12 how were you dressed?

    13 A. Each dance was danced in the dress of the

    14 ethnic group which used to be worn by people from that

    15 area, from that region. So Muslim dances were

    16 performed in Muslim dress from the last century from

    17 the Sarajevo area. For instance, we had all the

    18 costumes and all the necessary equipment. We had about

    19 ten different changes.

    20 Q. Can you tell me what a fez meant in Bosnia?

    21 Was it identified with any particular ethnic group?

    22 A. Yes, it was an identification mark for the

    23 Muslims, but elderly Muslims; the younger ones did not

    24 wear them.

    25 Q. Did you also wear those fezzes during your



  30. 1dances?

    2 A. Of course. Why not if we wore all other

    3 pieces of dress?

    4 Q. Did your folklore group continue to perform

    5 after the elections, let's say at the events organised

    6 by some of the parties?

    7 A. I can recall that in the pre-election

    8 campaigns during that time, we received some

    9 invitations and we would respond, if a decision was

    10 made that we should, and so I remember that we

    11 performed at both the rallies for the HDZ and the SDA,

    12 that is, for the Croatian Democratic Union rally and

    13 for the Party for Democratic Action rally.

    14 Q. So you were invited to perform at the rallies

    15 of both competing parties and you responded and you

    16 performed?

    17 A. Yes, and we went to Zenica and performed at a

    18 soccer field.

    19 Q. When you went to the SDA rally, was some kind

    20 of an anthem played before you performed?

    21 A. Yes, something was played. I think that it

    22 was the SDA anthem, but I do not -- I cannot reproduce

    23 it now.

    24 Q. You know that when we -- so that we've been

    25 talking about the period leading to the 20th of



  31. 1October. But I want to ask you, when the tensions

    2 started rising between Muslims and Croats, did the

    3 folklore group split up; in other words, that the new

    4 groups formed would consist of members of one ethnic

    5 group only and would perform only the songs and dances

    6 of that ethnic group?

    7 A. Yes. Right around the elections, a Croatian

    8 cultural society called Napredak was established as

    9 well as a Muslim cultural society, Preporod, but our

    10 own folklore group continued as before.

    11 Q. Were there any attempts to pressure you into

    12 disbanding your group and moving to the Croatian

    13 society?

    14 A. Yes. From the very start of these new

    15 associations, pressure was exerted on both us and the

    16 Muslims who were in the group, and these were not very

    17 overt pressures, it would be just in passing. "You

    18 know, we now have a Croatian society. Perhaps you

    19 should move with us?" But we were determined to stay

    20 the way we were, even though the conditions were

    21 deteriorating financially-speaking, since Senad Besic

    22 -- and since we had Senad Besic as the director, he

    23 was resourceful and we somehow managed to make ends

    24 meet. I am very glad that we were able to survive and

    25 I hope that we'll do it again.



  32. 1Q. Can you tell us who tried to pressure you to

    2 move, to persuade you to move to the Croatian society?

    3 A. As I said, it was not overt pressure, but

    4 from conversation to conversation, you would just

    5 become aware of the fact that you are being sort of

    6 eased in that direction. I remember Franjo Kurevija,

    7 he had a limp, that's how I remember him, he was one;

    8 and Marko Martinovic was another one. I think at that

    9 time -- and Zvonko Cilic. They were all part of the

    10 presidency at that time. My brother and I were really

    11 leaders of this folklore group, and they believed, I

    12 guess, that if they won us over, that the whole group

    13 would break apart.

    14 So there were conversations with those

    15 people, and even if we didn't want to move over to

    16 them, that we should help them.

    17 Q. So why did you decide not to disband this

    18 multi-ethnic group?

    19 A. I only remember asking those people, "Can

    20 Ibro, Spiro, Nezdad and others, Mustafa, come with me

    21 to this new society?" And they said "No, it was not a

    22 problem. Everybody could join in." My Muslim friends

    23 had similar experiences. The conversation would go on,

    24 "Would your friends also go to our society or will

    25 they stay in their own society?" So this is how it all



  33. 1went. So I told them, "As long as I can go along with

    2 this group, I'm used to it and I feel fine there and I

    3 don't want to change anything."

    4 Q. Can you tell me about your association with

    5 Muslims? Were you only meeting to go to performances

    6 and rehearsals, or did you associate with the, did you

    7 socialise with them, even outside this activity?

    8 A. Primarily this was a love for dancing and

    9 singing and playing music. We would gather before we

    10 started rehearsing or performing, an hour before, and

    11 we would talk about everything at this coffee bar. So

    12 we had an hour before and an hour after the

    13 performance. This is when the real socialisation took

    14 place. We would then maybe just move on to some coffee

    15 bar in town and we would just stay together.

    16 Q. This folklore group of yours, did it continue

    17 working after the 20th of October?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. Can you tell us when your folklore group had

    20 a performance at a Muslim celebration last? When was

    21 the last time, a purely Muslim celebration?

    22 A. Well, I remember we had a performance, it was

    23 to celebrate the Muslim festival of Bajram, and it was

    24 in March 1993 at the fire brigade building at the

    25 Mahala in Vitez. I remember that.



  34. 1Q. When was Bajram?

    2 A. It was March 1993, at the end of March

    3 sometime.

    4 Q. After that, did you have performances of any

    5 kind together with your Muslim members at an

    6 exclusively Croatian celebration?

    7 A. Not for a long time afterwards. I remember

    8 several days before the conflict, we had a performance

    9 with the same group in Mosunj to celebrate the Catholic

    10 holiday of Easter. That was in April, the 10th or 11th

    11 of April, somewhere around there.

    12 Q. Tell us, please, the war was to come soon

    13 after that.

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. Were there any attempts made at any folklore

    16 performances then?

    17 A. Well, there was one attempt sometime in

    18 December --

    19 Q. What year was that, please?

    20 A. It was December 1993. On one or two

    21 occasions, I don't quite remember, we were taken out of

    22 the trenches to try and get together a folklore

    23 performance of some kind, but the events in Krizancevo

    24 Selo took place where a lot of people died, so that

    25 nothing came of that.



  35. 1Q. So during the war, there was nothing. What

    2 about after the war? What happened after the war with

    3 the group? Did you gather together again later on?

    4 Were you able to reassemble?

    5 A. After the war, when I started going to work,

    6 we continued our work because of our love of that type

    7 of dancing and socialising, but as in Vitez at that

    8 time there was only the Napredak society, then we

    9 continued, my brother and I continued there.

    10 Q. When you took up your work in folklore, this

    11 Napredak society now, did you try to bring someone in

    12 from the Muslim members of the old composition, and if

    13 you did, try to tell us who you tried to bring in?

    14 A. Well, to begin with, we took in people that

    15 we could quickly, and then afterwards, we would invite

    16 people if we met them, and I continued with Cato Veljko

    17 who used to dance with us, he is a Serb by nationality;

    18 and then Adil Fafulovic, he is Romany, a Gypsy; and

    19 Ahmed Delic continued, Ahmed Delic was a Muslim; and

    20 the rest were Croats.

    21 Q. Did you try to bring in anybody else and did

    22 anybody refuse to go back to the society?

    23 A. I didn't invite anybody who declined.

    24 Anybody whom I saw knew I had some connections with

    25 folklore before. All of them agreed. And we also



  36. 1renewed work for the younger group, our junior group.

    2 As we did in the SPS, we had a younger group, led by my

    3 brother, and we continued this type of work and had

    4 this young group and there were lots of members after

    5 the war.

    6 Q. Tell us, please, after the war, did you have

    7 any public performances? Did you perform publicly, for

    8 example, in front of UNPROFOR soldiers?

    9 A. Yes. Before the war and after the war as

    10 well.

    11 Q. Did you travel abroad at all for

    12 performances?

    13 A. Well, we toured half of Europe with the SPS

    14 society as before, and after the war, with the Napredak

    15 society and folklore group, we had a guest appearance

    16 in Zagreb, if I remember correctly, and once in Vienna,

    17 Austria, after the war, that is.

    18 MR. RADOVIC: Mr. President, I am now going

    19 to complete that section relating to folklore, but I

    20 would like to show you some photographs, and they are

    21 self-explanatory. I am going to start with a

    22 photograph showing Zoran and Mirjan Kupreskic in their

    23 happier days. We have two photographs in colour only,

    24 I'm afraid, the rest are black and white, but as the

    25 Prosecutor used this method before us, I hope you won't



  37. 1mind.

    2 Perhaps it would be a good idea if we show

    3 the colour photographs first and then the order in

    4 which the registrar has them. May we show the colour

    5 photographs first? The colour photographs first,

    6 please, if we may?

    7 THE REGISTRAR: The photograph will be D16/A.

    8 MR. RADOVIC:

    9 Q. Would you comment on the photograph briefly?

    10 Who is on the photograph?

    11 A. Me and my brother while he did folklore

    12 dancing, and for a time he played in the society.

    13 Q. Just briefly we're showing your happier

    14 days. So you're both dancing there, and that is the

    15 national costume from Macedonia.

    16 That completes that particular photograph.

    17 May we proceed to the next one?

    18 Mr. President, I only have four photographs.

    19 I'm not going to overburden the Trial Chamber with

    20 photographs.

    21 Would you please describe this photograph?

    22 Who are the people on it?

    23 A. On the photograph are Serbs, Croats, and

    24 Muslims.

    25 Q. Are they all members of your folklore



  38. 1society?

    2 A. Yes, they are.

    3 Q. How are they dressed?

    4 A. Those are the Muslim costumes.

    5 Q. What do they have on their heads?

    6 A. They are fezzes. It is a complete Muslim

    7 costume and the dance is called Bosna.

    8 MR. RADOVIC: Well, that completes that

    9 particular photograph. May we go on to the next?

    10 THE REGISTRAR: That photograph is D17/A.

    11 Let me remind you that the first photograph was D16/A.

    12 JUDGE CASSESE: Why "A"? It's 1. You said

    13 "A." Why not 1?

    14 MR. RADOVIC: I gave seven of each.

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: So it is D17/1 and the first

    16 photograph D16/1.

    17 THE REGISTRAR: The third photograph is

    18 D18/1.

    19 MR. RADOVIC:

    20 Q. Tell us, please, Zoran, what does this

    21 photograph show?

    22 A. It's our cultural and arts society, Slobodna

    23 Princip Selo, and it had a wonderful custom, I think it

    24 was wonderful, and that is to celebrate the day it was

    25 founded, and this is a photograph from one of the



  39. 1celebrations at the hotel in Vitez where we are all

    2 together, the members of the society. We were already

    3 married; we were there with our wives.

    4 Q. And there were Muslims, Serbs, and Croats, if

    5 I understand you correctly.

    6 A. Yes, and those of us who were married,

    7 unmarried.

    8 Q. But married and unmarried are not national or

    9 ethnic affiliation. But they were all of different

    10 nationalities; is that correct?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. Would you take up the marker, please, and

    13 draw a circle around your head and your brother's head,

    14 and above the circle put in a number 1, please?

    15 A. (Marks)

    16 Q. "One" above your head and your brother's.

    17 A. "One" above each circle.

    18 Q. Yes, because one denotes the brothers

    19 Kupreskic.

    20 A. (Marks)

    21 Q. Now, indicate who was a Serb and draw a

    22 circle around that person. You can give us their name

    23 if you remember it, and write number 2 above that.

    24 A. (Marks)

    25 Q. Who is that?



  40. 1A. Veljko Cato.

    2 Q. Was there anybody else?

    3 A. Only Cato was a Serb.

    4 Q. Was there any Romany there, Gypsy?

    5 A. No.

    6 Q. Any Muslims?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. Indicate the Muslim circles with a circle and

    9 write a 3, please.

    10 A. (Marks). Dzidic Mustafa and Sedzad Masic.

    11 Q. That completes that photograph and there is

    12 one more, the last one.

    13 JUDGE CASSESE: Counsel Radovic, may I ask

    14 you, when was this photograph taken, this one? Do you

    15 know the date?

    16 MR. RADOVIC:

    17 Q. When was the photograph taken?

    18 MR. RADOVIC: May I ask the witness?

    19 A. Well, it was one of the celebrations. I

    20 think it was in '90. 1990 or 1991, thereabouts.

    21 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    22 THE REGISTRAR: The fourth photograph, the

    23 fourth, is D19/1.

    24 MR. RADOVIC:

    25 Q. Would you briefly comment on this last



  41. 1photograph, who you were performing for and what the

    2 dance was?

    3 A. This was a performance in front of the

    4 UNPROFOR soldiers. It was in Busovaca, at the school

    5 there.

    6 Q. That would be all, but just tell us the

    7 year.

    8 A. I don't exactly remember when that was but

    9 after the war sometime.

    10 Q. Well, that gives me a time frame. Thank

    11 you.

    12 MR. RADOVIC: Mr. President, are we going to

    13 take a break now or are we going on till 1.00? If

    14 we're going until 1.00, I would ask for five minutes to

    15 sit down, please.

    16 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, we intend to go on until

    17 1.00, and to stop at 1:00.

    18 MR. RADOVIC: So we're going to work until

    19 1.00?

    20 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. You may sit down, of

    21 course.

    22 MR. RADOVIC: Thank you. May I continue? I

    23 can continue sitting down, if I may, for five minutes?

    24 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes.

    25 MR. RADOVIC: So as not to lose time.



  42. 1Q. Do you remember the first free elections in

    2 1991?

    3 A. Yes, I do.

    4 Q. Did you take any kind of active role in those

    5 elections or for any party fighting for political power

    6 in the area of the Vitez municipality?

    7 A. Apart from folklore, nothing else.

    8 Q. Well, folklore is not political power. It

    9 doesn't come under that category.

    10 Did you know the results of the election? Do

    11 you know who won the election?

    12 A. Well, I knew for the Vitez municipality that

    13 most of the votes went to the HDZ party, that the

    14 second was the SDA, got the second majority vote. I

    15 don't know about the rest.

    16 Q. The others had negligible votes?

    17 A. Yes, that's right. These two of the most

    18 votes.

    19 Q. Do you know, either directly or from the

    20 media, how power was set up in the Vitez area after the

    21 elections, how government was set up? Was it a

    22 one-party government or was there a coalition?

    23 A. I know that there was a coalition after the

    24 elections between the HDZ and the SDA. Whether any

    25 other smaller party was included I don't know, but



  43. 1these two parties set up the government. I know that

    2 the president of the municipal assembly was a Croat,

    3 and the executive board president was a Muslim.

    4 Q. What was the name of the president of the

    5 municipality after the elections?

    6 A. Ivan Santic.

    7 Q. He was a member of the HDZ, as far as I

    8 understand.

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. What was the name of the president of the

    11 executive council?

    12 A. The president of the executive council was

    13 Fuad Kaknjo. He was an electrical engineer and worked

    14 in my company, and he was a Muslim by way of

    15 ethnicity.

    16 Q. As the notion of an executive council was a

    17 specific feature of the former Yugoslavia, how would we

    18 put that in more modern terms now to explain to the

    19 Trial Chamber what we mean by an executive council

    20 board?

    21 A. Well, I think it was the government, the

    22 government in the municipality.

    23 Q. From those first elections, up until the

    24 beginning of the Muslim-Croatian war on the 16th of

    25 April, 1993, did you have any political function that



  44. 1give you any kind of opportunity to wield political

    2 power and authority or to make any political decisions

    3 of any kind?

    4 A. No.

    5 Q. So at that time, from the election up until

    6 the beginning of the Croatian-Muslim war, how did you

    7 function in a political sense?

    8 A. You mean personally?

    9 Q. Yes. Were you involved in anything or did

    10 you only go about your own business, and job, and

    11 folklore?

    12 A. I was not politically engaged anywhere. I

    13 worked in my company, the firm I had worked for, from

    14 6.00 in the morning until 2.00 in the afternoon, and

    15 four times a week we had rehearsals in the evenings in

    16 Vitez, and I was engaged in building my house, that is

    17 to say, I was finishing off the construction work to my

    18 house, and of course, my family affairs.

    19 Q. Was there any kind of political meeting or

    20 the meetings of a political forum, for example, at

    21 which any kind of political decision was taken with you

    22 present, with you attending such a meeting?

    23 A. No. No, that did not exist.

    24 Q. You had an opportunity, up close and from

    25 afar, to see how the HDZ party was working. My guess



  45. 1is that -- I guess that you followed it from afar,

    2 through the media?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. Do you know of a term which was made up in

    5 the communist system called "democratic centralism"?

    6 A. That would, for me, involve taking a decision

    7 at a high level and then pushing it through to the

    8 lower levels, let's say, at the level of municipality

    9 and so on.

    10 Q. If I understood you correctly, this was a way

    11 of political functioning where all the key decisions

    12 were made at a high level, and then such decisions were

    13 transferred to the lower structures for its

    14 implementation; would that be correct?

    15 A. Yes. That is how the league of communists

    16 operated.

    17 Q. Now, do you know how the HDZ operated, based

    18 on what you heard in the media or from other people?

    19 A. I can only guess. There were people who

    20 worked in a certain way for 40 years or more, and it's

    21 very hard to change that overnight.

    22 Q. But did you have an opportunity to follow any

    23 media during this critical period following the

    24 elections and prior to the war?

    25 A. I had an opportunity at work to follow the



  46. 1news on a transistor radio.

    2 Q. So what was being reported? Was it said that

    3 the assembly of Herceg-Bosna established Herceg-Bosna

    4 or was it that the Vitez municipality officials asked

    5 for the creation of Herceg-Bosna? Which way did it

    6 go?

    7 A. I don't know. I don't recall.

    8 Q. Very well. Do you recall when you first

    9 heard the word "HVO"?

    10 A. Perhaps sometime in 1992.

    11 Q. Now, what is the HVO?

    12 A. That is the Croatian Defence Council. At

    13 that time, the HVO set up its organisation and came

    14 into power in Vitez. I mean, this is what I heard on

    15 my transistor radio, and this is what I heard while I

    16 was taking coffee with my colleagues at work.

    17 Q. Did the HVO imply only the municipal or, I

    18 should say, civilian authority or did you also see some

    19 persons wearing uniforms with the HVO insignia on

    20 them?

    21 A. It was both the civilian and military

    22 authority, that is in Vitez. You could see people in

    23 uniform walking about in town.

    24 Q. With the HVO insignia?

    25 A. I don't know what period you're referring



  47. 1to.

    2 Q. Any period.

    3 A. Yes, you could see them around.

    4 Q. Could you place in time when it was that you

    5 first saw a person with the HVO insignia?

    6 A. This could have been in the summer or fall of

    7 1992.

    8 Q. Did you at any time see a larger group of

    9 such persons?

    10 A. On one occasion I was in the sports stadium,

    11 it was some kind of parade or oath-taking or something

    12 like, that and that's when I saw them.

    13 Q. Were you present in that stadium as a member

    14 of the audience or a participant?

    15 A. I went there as a member of the audience. I

    16 was late coming from work.

    17 Q. Were you there from the beginning or were

    18 people already dispersing when you arrived?

    19 A. It was almost over when I arrived.

    20 Q. Could you describe what types of uniforms you

    21 saw there? What did you see?

    22 A. I saw camouflage uniforms, sort of olive

    23 green in colour. Then I saw some medical staff in

    24 white. Some had weapons, some did not. I cannot

    25 recall, but I think that there were two persons in



  48. 1black uniforms, but I'm not so sure.

    2 Q. Were there some who were wearing belts, such

    3 as the military policemen used to wear?

    4 A. No, I do not recall.

    5 Q. You did not pay much attention to that, did

    6 you?

    7 A. There may have been there, but I don't know.

    8 Q. You also said that some of them carried

    9 weapons?

    10 A. Yes. There were mostly automatic rifles or

    11 M-48 semiautomatic rifles, those types of weapons.

    12 Q. At that time, that is in the summer of 1992,

    13 was the war with the Serbs already raging?

    14 A. Yes. I recall that my brother and I were

    15 sitting at the Sedzad Masic's coffee bar. This is the

    16 man who also is part of this folklore group, and we

    17 watched on television when in April the Serbian snipers

    18 started shooting around town. I think that was -- this

    19 had already happened.

    20 Q. Were there any combat operations in the Vitez

    21 municipality?

    22 A. You mean in 1992?

    23 Q. First just tell me whether there were some

    24 and then you can say when.

    25 A. In the Vitez area, no.



  49. 1Q. How about shelling?

    2 A. Yes. The JNA, actually the air force, did

    3 bomb the factory in Busovaca. This was in April 1992.

    4 Q. In April 1992?

    5 A. I don't know. I think it was in April.

    6 Q. Did they succeed in hitting the factory

    7 during that raid?

    8 A. I watched that from my home, and a couple of

    9 days ago I -- a couple of days later I realised that

    10 the bombs had missed the factory. I know that it was

    11 around the boiler room. There was some minor damage

    12 but nothing vital was hit.

    13 Q. Now, let me ask you about these free

    14 elections. Could anybody have predicted that there

    15 would be a conflict between Muslims and the Croats

    16 around that time or were Muslims and the Croats

    17 considered allies?

    18 A. For instance, I saw the manifestations of

    19 that alliance everywhere. For instance, Muslim and

    20 Croat flags would be tied together into a knot. I

    21 think that it was probably -- it probably looked a bit

    22 strange to the Serbs living there, but the alliance of

    23 Croats and Muslims did exist.

    24 Q. When did you start feeling that this alliance

    25 was breaking down or waning? Obviously, what did you



  50. 1notice? I'm not asking you for any objective knowledge

    2 of that but what did you notice?

    3 A. I heard that they couldn't reach an agreement

    4 at the local government level, that they had to

    5 separate, that the authority between them which was

    6 shared had to go apart. But I mostly learned of this

    7 at work. It was usual in the morning to drink coffee

    8 and then another one at noon, so all of us who worked

    9 together in this unit, we would gather around and this

    10 is when we shared information.

    11 Ahmet Mahmutovic, who was the brother of the

    12 late Saban, who was the chief of police, worked there,

    13 and Senad Topoljak, who lived in Vitez, also worked

    14 with us. So he told us what happened in Vitez the

    15 previous night, things like that.

    16 Q. Let's move on to late 1992, late 1992 and

    17 early 1993, when the war broke out. Did you receive

    18 any kind of print media, any newspapers?

    19 A. Very rarely. We had a Sarajevo newspaper

    20 called Vecernji. We received that. I also followed a

    21 sports paper which came from Zagreb.

    22 Q. How about the electronic media? Did you

    23 watch television?

    24 A. Where I lived, you could receive the Sarajevo

    25 TV programming. Croats had their own television, and



  51. 1Muslims had their own television, but the signal was

    2 not strong enough in Ahmici, so we couldn't watch

    3 that. In Vitez you could watch Zenica TV, but not

    4 where I lived.

    5 Q. When the lady witness that testified

    6 yesterday, she mentioned propaganda coming from Grude

    7 television, and she concluded from that that Busovaca

    8 and Kiseljak had similar conditions. Did you receive

    9 TV Grude where you lived?

    10 A. No, never. Neither the radio or TV signal.

    11 Q. Were you in a position to receive it?

    12 A. From what I know, nobody in my area could

    13 receive their signal.

    14 Q. Did you, at some point, and if you did, when,

    15 did you start noticing any electronic media information

    16 which was accusatory of another ethnic group; in other

    17 words, allegations that another ethnic group was

    18 responsible for certain incidents?

    19 Before you answer that, I would like to ask

    20 you: Did you listen to only Croatian radio stations or

    21 did you listen to some Muslim ones?

    22 A. I had a transistor radio at work. There were

    23 both Croatian and Muslim radio stations, and I listened

    24 to both of them. When the conflict broke out in

    25 Busovaca, and even before the conflict with Serbs



  52. 1around Sarajevo, I know that, for instance, when the

    2 Croatian newscast talked about the conflict in

    3 Busovaca, it would be something like set phrases, it

    4 would be "that the enemy attacked," and if you listened

    5 to the other side, they would say the same thing except

    6 they would accuse the other side. So they were both

    7 completely partial but in the opposite directions.

    8 Q. Now, I would like you to try to place in

    9 time, when did these incidents that allegedly the other

    10 side was responsible for, when did it begin to be

    11 mentioned more and more often? When was this?

    12 A. That was in January, and if I can just add to

    13 what I had said before, I rarely heard from the

    14 Croatian side that the HVO was also involved in

    15 something. And the same with the Muslim side. They

    16 rarely ever mentioned that the BH army was involved in

    17 something. It was always only mentioned the other

    18 side.

    19 Q. How did the Croatian media brand Muslims and

    20 the other way around too?

    21 A. The Croatian media called it "the Muslim

    22 forces" and the Muslim media called it "the HVO

    23 forces."

    24 Q. Very well. When you compared these reports

    25 from the media, were you able to conclude what was the



  53. 1truth? Was it possible at all to determine what the

    2 truth was?

    3 A. It was impossible for me to determine what

    4 the truth was.

    5 Q. Did you have any type of information that you

    6 received from direct participants in any of these

    7 events?

    8 A. [No translation]

    9 Q. Did you, throughout this period -- we are now

    10 entering 1992, up until the beginning of the war with

    11 the Muslims -- at any time feel threatened by the

    12 Muslims, that is, by your Muslim neighbours in

    13 particular?

    14 A. My Muslim neighbours? No.

    15 Q. Who were you afraid of?

    16 A. There were frequent threats, that is to say,

    17 we were threatened when we heard the term "Mujahedin."

    18 That was the frightening word.

    19 Q. In what sense were you afraid when you heard

    20 the term "Mujahedin"? Who were these people?

    21 A. Well, they were some foreign mercenaries from

    22 some Arab countries who had come to fight for Islam for

    23 the Muslims in Bosnia-Herzegovina, that they existed in

    24 Zenica, and Zenica was the bordering municipality, if

    25 you look at Zenica, Vitez and Ahmici and Pirici, where



  54. 1I come from, so that was the nearest.

    2 Q. So people spoke about them as warriors to

    3 propagate religion. But were they also talked about as

    4 to their conduct, whether they adhered to the rules of

    5 warfare or the prevalent rules with regard to their

    6 behaviour toward civilians, or were they also spoken of

    7 as something quite separate and different?

    8 A. Well, the tales told were that these people

    9 would slaughter others and that they would storm the

    10 village and so on. There were terrible stories going

    11 about, and you could believe them or not believe them.

    12 Q. But whether it's true or not, you had your

    13 doubts, and this idea was implanted in your mind.

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. Tell us, the Muslims would frighten you by

    16 referring to the Mujahedins. Did you frighten the

    17 Muslims in any way? Not you personally but I mean

    18 generally.

    19 A. Well, I learned some things from Senad

    20 Topoljak who worked with me and lived in the town, and

    21 he said that -- I don't know what period this was,

    22 whether it was the end of 1992 or the beginning of 1993

    23 -- that in Vitez, there were some people from

    24 Herzegovina, there was an army of Herzegovinian men,

    25 and their behaviour was provocative, they would shoot



  55. 1above their heads in cafes, they would take drinks and

    2 not pay for them, they were generally carousing and so

    3 on, and I saw this on several occasions myself, people

    4 going through the town with weapons, drunk and rowdy,

    5 and I gained the impression that Senad was afraid of

    6 them. Well, I was afraid too, not only him. So that

    7 this fear did exist and it was tangible, you could feel

    8 the fear from this army, and it was a sort of

    9 Herzegovina army, men from Herzegovina, something like

    10 that.

    11 Q. Tell us, please, at that particular time,

    12 from the summer of 1992 up until the beginning of the

    13 war, was there any violence in town? For example,

    14 would they break somebody's cafe, demolish it, shoot at

    15 somebody's windows, throw in a bomb or something like

    16 that, in the town of Vitez, I'm asking about?

    17 A. Well, yes, that is in line with what I said a

    18 moment ago, that there were rumours and people said

    19 that this was done by the people from Herzegovina, that

    20 cafes were blown up, that they shot into the air at

    21 random, and that their behaviour was generally rowdy

    22 and that they behaved badly, that he would have a

    23 long-barrelled weapon. This occurred at the end of

    24 1992; I don't know if it was already 1993.

    25 Q. But tell us, please, in your own village



  56. 1where you lived, was there any behaviour of that kind

    2 there, any violence towards the Muslims, whether there

    3 was random shooting, people from -- and towards the

    4 Muslim houses in what was considered to be Ahmici, or

    5 was nothing going on there with respect to violent

    6 behaviour?

    7 A. Well, at that time in Ahmici, there was

    8 nothing of that kind going on, but by the main road

    9 there was. From time to time, a car would go by, for

    10 example, and people would shoot out of it into the air.

    11 Q. But what about the main road? These were not

    12 locals.

    13 A. No. People would come in by car.

    14 Q. But I'm asking you about the villagers

    15 themselves.

    16 A. No, there was nothing of that kind amongst

    17 the villagers, the locals.

    18 Q. Well, we have just heard of the kind of

    19 tensions that existed and the tensions in the media,

    20 that they always blamed the other side for anything

    21 that occurred. Would you now tell us something about

    22 the village guards or village watch. What were the

    23 village guards? We've been talking a lot about them.

    24 Well, let's hear what they were because we heard

    25 yesterday, the BBC film we saw, that the Muslims, via



  57. 1the village guards, protected their houses. Could you

    2 tell us what is meant by the village guards in your

    3 particular village?

    4 A. Yesterday, when I watched the film, I think

    5 his name was Nurija, shown on the film, and I thought

    6 poor old Nurija, the situation was similar where we

    7 were with just some little differences. But that was

    8 it more or less.

    9 As far as the village guards were concerned

    10 or village watch, I know that at Zume they started

    11 forming these village guards and it was the winter of

    12 1992, but in Ahmici, the Muslim neighbours, during that

    13 particular period, we Kupreskics did not have watches

    14 of that kind until February or March 1992.

    15 Q. Tell us, please, among the Kupreskic houses,

    16 how many of you, how many men were there who were

    17 capable of doing shifts within this village guard?

    18 We're not going to stick to the 65 age limit as existed

    19 in the army. But how many of you were able to go out

    20 at night carrying a gun and take part in this village

    21 guard?

    22 A. Three.

    23 Q. How many?

    24 A. Three of us. I myself, Ivica, and Mirjan.

    25 Q. And that's all?



  58. 1A. Yes. In the Kupreskic houses, that was all.

    2 And as that was so, then we wanted to have the Sakics,

    3 Samija, and the ones who were nearer, the Pudzine

    4 houses' people to join us, so there were not only three

    5 of us, there were 10 or 12 people in all, counting

    6 them, because the three of us couldn't hold any village

    7 watch of any kind.

    8 Q. Would you tell us how you started doing these

    9 guard shifts? I interrupted you. I apologise.

    10 A. I've already said that the village guards

    11 were at Zume. The Muslims stood guard, our neighbours,

    12 in the village. And in February or March, somewhere

    13 thereabouts, we too stood guard several times, on

    14 several occasions, but we began to do this in a more

    15 serious fashion in April, after the JNA shelling of the

    16 SPS in Vitez, the company there, and the town of

    17 Busovaca.

    18 Q. So how did it come about that village guards

    19 were formed at all? Was there an initiative from

    20 outside? Did this initiative come from outside? Did

    21 they ask you to set up village guards in the village,

    22 or did this come about in some other way?

    23 A. Well, the initiative came from the village

    24 itself. I remember that my father said to me, "Well,

    25 look here. These people, our neighbours, are holding



  59. 1village guards at Zume. They're all awake whereas

    2 you're all sleeping. They go to work and you sleep at

    3 night." And Dragan Vidovic's father told him the same

    4 thing and so did Mirko Sakic's father. They all said

    5 this. And I remember on one occasion, Dragan and I,

    6 when I took part in the village watch with Dragan

    7 Vidovic for the first time and I did my shift, that

    8 might have been in March perhaps, I'm not sure --

    9 Q. But you didn't tell me how it came about that

    10 you went to do your guard shift for the first time.

    11 A. Well, I went there for the first time with

    12 Dragan, as I said. He called me. He said that he was

    13 at Sakics' place, I don't know which one, but he went

    14 visiting, he went to have a cup of coffee, went to the

    15 Sakics' place, and the two of them had agreed that this

    16 Sakic would see, with those down there, whether they

    17 wanted to, and that Dragan would contact us to see

    18 whether we were in favour of this, and when Dragan told

    19 me, I said, "Well, yes," I wasn't against because I

    20 could see that there were village guards set up all

    21 over the place.

    22 So a few days later, he came and said that

    23 the two of us were to do our shift for a certain amount

    24 of time. So that is my first recollection of when I

    25 did my shift within this village guard duty.



  60. 1Q. How often did you have to do this village

    2 guard duty -- once a month, twice a month? -- when you

    3 had already started this? How often?

    4 A. Well, it depended on the period.

    5 Q. Well, let us say up until the 20th of

    6 October, tell us that first, and then from the 20th of

    7 October to the 16th of April, tell us about that next.

    8 A. So in those first few days, only a few of us

    9 wanted to do this village guard duty. Some people

    10 didn't want to.

    11 Later on, when there were about ten of us,

    12 then we would do two-hour shifts per night, so we had

    13 five to our shifts to cover the entire night. So we

    14 would go out, all of us, every night and do our

    15 two-hour shift. If I did my shift from, say, 1.00 to

    16 3.00 a.m., the next evening -- we had this automatic

    17 system where I would do from 3.00 to 5.00 a.m. So that

    18 I would have all the shifts, the first, the middle

    19 shift, and the last shift, and everybody liked to do

    20 the last shift or the first shift so you could do your

    21 shift and then go home and have a sleep. So that we

    22 were out every night. If we wanted to do regular

    23 village guard duty, we would all have to be there and

    24 do two-hour shifts.

    25 Q. Very well. What would happen if somebody



  61. 1could not go out for his shift, that is to say, up to

    2 this 20th of October period? For example, if someone

    3 went down with the flu?

    4 A. Well, things like that did happen. They

    5 would stay at home and sleep and the other people would

    6 carry on. Quite simply, that shift would not be

    7 carried out. Sometimes somebody would replace them,

    8 but not always. So it wasn't very serious, really.

    9 MR. RADOVIC: Mr. President, we have

    10 completed this general section relating to the village

    11 guards. We will now go on to speak about whether he

    12 distributed the shifts. But if you agree, we could

    13 perhaps take a break there and adjourn.

    14 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. We will adjourn now

    15 until tomorrow.

    16 Before adjourning, let me ask Counsel

    17 Puliselic a question. I would like Counsel Puliselic

    18 to inquire about the health of Mr. Dragan Papic. Is he

    19 in hospital?

    20 MR. PULISELIC: Yes, he went to hospital

    21 today, and as far as I have been informed, the

    22 operation has been scheduled for tomorrow. That is all

    23 I know. I know nothing more than that. So tomorrow or

    24 the day after, we will receive further information.

    25 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Thank you so



  62. 1much.

    2 All right. So we adjourn now. Tomorrow we

    3 will start at 10.00, because at 9.00, as you know, the

    4 Tadic judgement will be delivered. From 10.00 to 1.00.

    5 All right. We adjourn now.

    6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

    7 1.00 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,

    8 the 15th day of July, 1999, at

    9 10.00 a.m.

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