Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2175

1 Thursday, 18 May 2000

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good

6 morning. You may be seated, please.

7 Good morning, ladies and gentlemen; good

8 morning to the technical booth, the interpreters, court

9 reporters, legal officers, the Prosecution, the

10 Defence.

11 We are resuming our case, Kvocka and others,

12 and I'm going to give the floor now -- I think it was

13 Mr. Nikolic -- no, Mr. O'Sullivan. I'm sorry.

14 We still don't have the witness.

15 [The witness entered court]

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good

17 morning, Witness. Can you hear me?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

19 I can.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Have you

21 had a good rest?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank

23 you.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be

25 seated.

Page 2176

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I should

3 like to remind you that you are still under oath, and

4 today you're going to answer questions which the

5 Defence attorneys, in this case Mr. O'Sullivan, are

6 going to put to you.

7 Mr. O'Sullivan, you have the floor.

8 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Good morning, Your Honour.

9 Thank you. My first few questions will have to be in

10 closed session, Your Honour. May I ask that we go into

11 closed session. Private session.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Private

13 session.

14 [Private session]

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 2177

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 [Open session]

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We are in

21 public session. Mr. O'Sullivan, please continue.

22 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. Sir, you told us yesterday that you received

24 a drip treatment in Mujo's room after being moved from

25 the hangar. Do you recall that?

Page 2178

1 A. Yes, I do.

2 Q. I believe you told us that the doctor

3 inserted the needle into your arm to administer the

4 treatment.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And your neighbour held the bottle from which

7 the fluid was transfused into your body.

8 A. Yes. Correct.

9 Q. Would you agree with me that at that point

10 your condition was critical?

11 A. Yes, I would.

12 Q. I think you'd agree with me that it would be

13 fair to say that before you received this drip

14 treatment your condition was getting progressively

15 worse.

16 A. Yes, that is correct.

17 Q. Would you also agree with me that there were

18 a number of factors that contributed to your condition:

19 the stress, not eating and drinking adequately, the

20 episode where a guard knocked your teeth out, and the

21 fact that you spent much time outside on the pista.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. As you told us yesterday, it was while you

24 were on the pista that you lost your teeth.

25 A. Yes.

Page 2179

1 Q. You also told us that it was during the first

2 month of your stay in Omarska that you were on the

3 pista.

4 A. Yes. Correct.

5 Q. You went from the pista to the hangar.

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. It's also fair to say that before you were

8 moved to the hangar, the place where you lost

9 consciousness, you were in very bad shape on the

10 pista.

11 A. Yes, I was in bad shape, especially until I

12 was beaten up.

13 Q. I want to move on to a different area now. A

14 moment ago you confirmed that you met twice with the

15 Prosecution in 1995 and 1998, and it's correct that you

16 told investigators from the Prosecution that based on

17 the way the person you describe as Krle, based on the

18 way he spoke, you thought that he was not from the

19 Prijedor municipality.

20 A. Yes, that was what I thought, by the colour

21 of his skin and so on, that he wasn't.

22 Q. And by the way he spoke.

23 A. Yes.

24 MR. O'SULLIVAN: With the assistance of the

25 usher, I ask that the witness be shown Prosecution

Page 2180

1 Exhibit 3/85D and 3/85D1, the photo boards. Can you

2 place both of those pictures in front of the witness,

3 please.

4 Q. Sir, you have in front of you photographs

5 that are known as Prosecution Exhibit 3/85D1. Can you

6 take a brief moment and look at all the faces once

7 more. There's no need to focus on face number 4. I'll

8 ask you to focus on the other faces, please.

9 Have you had a chance to look at all the

10 other faces?

11 A. Yes, I have.

12 Q. Aside from photo 4, not counting photo 4, you

13 are able to recognise someone else, aren't you?

14 A. No, I am not capable of recognising anyone

15 else. I can't focus my mind back.

16 Q. Does someone look familiar to you, other than

17 number 4?

18 A. To tell you the truth, no. Possibly he may

19 have been there but I don't know.

20 Q. Who is that? What number?

21 A. All of them do not seem familiar. I can't

22 say that any one of them was there now, except the one

23 under number 4.

24 Q. All right. Thank you.

25 MR. O'SULLIVAN: You can remove the photos.

Page 2181

1 Q. Sir, yesterday you spoke about a man who was

2 shot, in your words, you described him as a person who

3 had lost his nerve and gone a bit crazy. Do you recall

4 that?

5 A. Yes, that was my opinion, judging by the way

6 he behaved.

7 Q. You arrived in Omarska on May 30th; is that

8 correct?

9 A. Yes. Correct.

10 Q. You testified that this shooting occurred

11 over one month after you arrived; is that correct?

12 A. As far as I can remember, it was sometime

13 around then.

14 Q. Now, you would agree with me that you have

15 given three different dates concerning the date on

16 which you say this shooting occurred.

17 A. It's possible. But to tell you the honest

18 truth, I can't remember. It was a long time ago and we

19 lost trace of the date down there, so I can't

20 remember.

21 Q. In 1995 you told the Prosecution, when they

22 interviewed you, that it happened on July 24th, didn't

23 you?

24 A. I might have said that, but I'm trying to

25 forget that incident. I may have said that, because

Page 2182

1 that interview was two or three years after the event,

2 and now it's even further back in time, so I can't be

3 certain about any date.

4 Q. In 1998 when you met with the Prosecutor, you

5 said it happened 20 days after you arrived, which is

6 June 20th. You said that, didn't you?

7 A. I may have said that, but I'm repeating: I'm

8 not certain of the date. I know that the event

9 happened and that I was present there.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

11 Mr. O'Sullivan, I apologise for interrupting you. The

12 witness has given you an answer and you are insisting,

13 so please move on to another question, please.

14 MR. O'SULLIVAN:

15 Q. Sir, you have given different details about

16 the person whom you say was shot; isn't that correct?

17 A. As far as I know, I didn't know the man,

18 whether he was from Kozarac or Skela. But regarding

19 the event I saw, I always described it in the same

20 way.

21 Q. So in 1995 when you said he was from Kozarac,

22 you made a mistake; is that right?

23 A. He may have been from Kozarac or Skela. To

24 this day I don't know where he was from. He was not

25 somebody I knew.

Page 2183

1 Q. Well, in 1998 when you were interviewed by

2 the Prosecution, you said that saying that this man was

3 from Kozarac was a mistake. You told the Prosecution

4 that, didn't you?

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me,

6 Mr. O'Sullivan. It's the same observation I have to

7 make to you. You are insisting. The witness has given

8 you an answer.

9 Madam Hollis.

10 MS. HOLLIS: Yes, Your Honour. In addition,

11 Your Honour, the Prosecution objects to the question as

12 misleading, and on page 6 of this 1998 interview, the

13 witness says: "In my previous statement, if it states

14 that the person killed by Krle was from Kozarac, it is

15 incorrect. I did not say that." So the witness

16 doesn't say it was a mistake in the 1998 statement, he

17 says he did not say that. And that is on page 6, sixth

18 paragraph.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

20 Mr. O'Sullivan, I understand that you have prepared

21 your cross in a certain order, but the second part of

22 this must be eliminated as soon as you get an answer

23 from the witness. So you mustn't insist. Please move

24 on to another question.

25 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, Ms. Hollis

Page 2184

1 quite correctly points out that the witness says that

2 it was incorrect. I'm asking the witness if he made a

3 mistake. That's the basis for asking that question.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Continue,

5 Mr. O'Sullivan.

6 MR. O'SULLIVAN:

7 Q. So my question is, sir: When you told the

8 Prosecution it was Kozarac, were you mistaken?

9 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, again I'm going to

10 object. In the 1998 statement, the witness says, "I

11 never said it was Kozarac." So he's making it appear

12 as though the witness said something the witness has

13 denied in the statement saying.

14 MR. O'SULLIVAN:

15 Q. Sir, can I remind you what you said in 1995.

16 You said, and I quote, referring to the victim: "He

17 came from Kozarac." That is what you said in your 1995

18 statement. My question is: Did you make a mistake

19 when you said that?

20 A. I'm saying again: I don't remember

21 mentioning that. That may be a mistake. I still don't

22 know where that man was from, and it didn't interest

23 me. It was an astonishment for me to see a man being

24 killed in front of my very eyes, for the first time.

25 Q. Sir, I put this to you: You saw Krle in

Page 2185

1 Omarska when you were there, but you are mistaken when

2 you say he shot someone. Do you accept that

3 possibility?

4 A. In my conviction, I do not accept, because he

5 came at five or six minutes later, the man went towards

6 him, he went towards the man. He raised his gun. I

7 heard the shots. The man fell. In my conviction, as I

8 was watching, it was Krle who did it.

9 MR. O'SULLIVAN: No further questions, Your

10 Honour.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

12 very much, Mr. O'Sullivan.

13 It is now the turn of Mr. Krstan Simic.

14 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Good morning,

15 Your Honours, and thank you.

16 Cross-examined by Mr. K. Simic:

17 Q. Witness AI, you spoke at length yesterday, so

18 we need to go over a few points to clear them up.

19 A moment ago, talking to Mr. O'Sullivan, you

20 said that you do not remember dates in view of the

21 conditions, which is quite understandable. But I do

22 appeal to you nevertheless, because dates are important

23 here for the truth, and thereby also for justice, that

24 you do make an extra effort and, regarding certain

25 events, try as best you can to place them in time, the

Page 2186

1 time when they occurred, of course, as far as you're

2 able.

3 A. I shall do my best, but I am just not able to

4 determine the dates now, because, anyway, I'm trying to

5 forget these things. I find it hard even to think

6 about them.

7 Q. Yesterday you said that you arrived in

8 Omarska on the 30th of May, 1992, in the late

9 afternoon; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You also said that you came by bus.

12 A. Yes, we came with AutoTransport buses.

13 Q. Please answer me as briefly as possible

14 because that will speed things up. How many buses were

15 there in your column; can you remember?

16 A. As far as I can remember, there were three

17 buses when I was getting on but the buses were coming

18 and going. But when I got on, there were three buses,

19 and my bus was the second in the line.

20 Q. So from the starting point, there were three

21 buses, when you were getting on, and then new buses

22 arrived. Can we agree that your bus was the second?

23 A. The second, yes.

24 Q. Who escorted you, who provided security,

25 whatever you like, in your bus?

Page 2187

1 A. In my bus I seemed to have recognised him. I

2 don't know the name. Drazo who used to work in

3 Prijedor, he was a driver, and as far as I can see, it

4 was him.

5 Q. The person escorting you, was there only one

6 or several?

7 A. There were several, but when we got in we had

8 to bend down our heads.

9 Q. How many?

10 A. There may have been three or four, but I saw

11 him as we entered. He was the driver. And I knew him

12 from the lotto in Prijedor. And there were military

13 persons around.

14 Q. Were those people in uniform?

15 A. Drazo was in a police uniform.

16 Q. Civilian or military police? Because you do

17 understand those things.

18 A. It was the regular blue police uniform. It

19 wasn't a camouflage uniform.

20 Q. When you came to Omarska, you said that your

21 bus stopped at the level of Mujo's room.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. At that particular moment, were there any

24 other buses in front of you?

25 A. No, there were not, because our bus stopped

Page 2188

1 by the SUP building before going on to Omarska. I

2 forgot to say that, perhaps. And one man got out and

3 came back and joined us, and I saw that -- I didn't

4 actually see, but I saw that it was in front of the

5 SUP. And then we went off in an unknown direction, I

6 didn't know where we were going, but then we arrived in

7 Omarska. So I saw that one bus when I was there.

8 Q. Please try and answer my questions. If you

9 wish to add anything, any essential point, you can of

10 course.

11 A. Well, I think that it is essential that we

12 stopped off on the way at one particular place and then

13 went on. You judge whether it's essential or not

14 yourself.

15 Q. Thank you. But I didn't get an answer to my

16 previous question. In front of you, were there other

17 buses when you stopped in Omarska, in front of Mujo's

18 room?

19 A. As far as I remember, there was only my own

20 bus. That's as far as I can remember. Just my bus,

21 the bus I got out of.

22 Q. So that means that at that point in time,

23 there was only your bus.

24 A. Yes, only my bus. And another bus arrived

25 later on, my one left, and so on.

Page 2189

1 Q. Thank you. What about the bus that was going

2 in front of you, that was in front of you? Where did

3 that bus go?

4 A. I don't know.

5 Q. You don't know, you say. Very well.

6 Yesterday you said that when you got out that you were

7 searched, that is to say, all the people who had been

8 taken into custody were searched, and that a list was

9 compiled, that some valuables were taken from some

10 people. Is that true?

11 A. Yes, that's correct.

12 Q. Who conducted this search? Were they the

13 individuals who escorted you or somebody else?

14 A. I said that when we came we had to stand up

15 against this wall, and I didn't see who was conducting

16 the search. We weren't allowed to look.

17 Q. Thank you. Who took a note of your names?

18 Was it one of the people who escorted you? You must

19 have seen that because you were looking at the man whom

20 you were speaking to.

21 A. At that time the man was not somebody I

22 knew. He had a blue uniform on and he wrote it all

23 down. If I knew who it was, I would tell you.

24 Q. Later on, during the time you spent in

25 Omarska, and you were there for about 66 days, I

Page 2190

1 believe, did you happen to see that man as being a

2 member of the Omarska police, who provided security?

3 A. I don't remember that I saw him but --

4 Q. Thank you. Thank you. You said a moment

5 ago, on two occasions, uniforms -- you said yesterday

6 that you were a member of the army and that you had the

7 rank of private first class. Does that mean that you

8 know something about uniforms?

9 A. Well, I should know something, yes.

10 Q. There is a difference between military and

11 police uniforms, is there not?

12 A. Yes, there is.

13 Q. Is that difference such that your ordinary

14 citizen can differentiate?

15 A. Yes. The militia had a light blue shirt and

16 dark blue trousers, we knew that was the civilian

17 police, whereas the military had the SMB

18 olive-green/grey uniform.

19 Q. Thank you. Yesterday you mentioned military

20 and police camouflage uniforms.

21 A. Yes, I did.

22 Q. Was there a difference between the police

23 camouflage uniforms and the military camouflage

24 uniforms, army ones?

25 A. Yes, a difference did exist, because the SMB

Page 2191

1 olive-green/grey is the army type and the camouflage

2 police uniform was light blue and dark blue.

3 Q. Thank you. You were in the army. Did the

4 army have its own police force?

5 A. Yes, it did. I know that it did --

6 Q. Thank you very much, Witness. Let's just

7 keep it brief. Us ordinary citizens, especially those

8 of us who had done our military service, and 90 per

9 cent did do their military service in our country, in

10 town how were we able to differentiate between an army

11 policeman and a civilian policeman?

12 A. Well, there was an army police uniform, he

13 had the belt, the white belt. And that was the

14 difference for traffic control and so on.

15 Q. So military policemen had white belts, did

16 they?

17 A. Yes, they did.

18 Q. Thank you very much. I shall return to the

19 question of uniforms in a moment, and I shall be

20 talking about Mr. Kvocka in that regard.

21 You said yesterday that when you saw him

22 first in Omarska that he was wearing a standard blue

23 police uniform; is that correct?

24 A. I didn't say "standard," I said it was a

25 camouflage.

Page 2192

1 Q. But you said a blue uniform?

2 A. It was a camouflage uniform.

3 Q. Very well. But was that a police camouflage

4 uniform?

5 A. In my opinion, it was a police uniform.

6 Q. Thank you. Did he remain in that uniform

7 until his departure from Omarska?

8 A. Well, I can't remember.

9 Q. Just say yes or no.

10 A. I can't remember, but I think he did, yes.

11 Q. I mentioned Mr. Kvocka's departure. Perhaps

12 we should deal with that matter now and not go back to

13 it later on. Do you know the reason for his departure

14 from Omarska?

15 A. I do not.

16 Q. You do not?

17 A. No, I never learnt about that.

18 Q. Now let us go back once again to the question

19 of your arrival at Omarska, in the evening of the 30th

20 of May, 1992. When you were searched and your name

21 taken down, where did you go first from the bus? Where

22 were you taken and put up?

23 A. I was taken to the pista, that is to say, the

24 area between the restaurant --

25 Q. Very well. We'll clarify what we mean by the

Page 2193

1 pista on the basis of photographs. We'll do that later

2 on. Thank you.

3 Were there any people out on the pista when

4 you arrived?

5 A. Yes, there were.

6 Q. Very well. How many?

7 A. I can't tell you the exact number.

8 Q. Well, make a rough estimate.

9 A. Perhaps there were some 50 to 100 people at

10 that particular moment. I don't know exactly.

11 Q. While you were out on the pista, what did you

12 do there?

13 A. Well, I sat around --

14 Q. You were sitting. Very well.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did you see the arrival of fresh buses? How

17 many other buses arrived and how many people got out?

18 A. Well, I didn't -- I don't know the number of

19 buses. Buses did arrive. There were beatings and

20 screams --

21 Q. I'm asking you how many buses.

22 A. I can't give you the exact number. I didn't

23 pay sufficient attention to that, but buses did come.

24 Q. How many people would there be per bus,

25 generally speaking?

Page 2194

1 A. Well, it depends, but 50 to 60 people in

2 normal times. It depends on the buses.

3 Q. Where did these new arrivals go to? When

4 they left the bus, where were they taken?

5 A. Some of them would join us, and others went

6 to other premises. I didn't follow this all the time,

7 where they were being distributed. At that moment it

8 was a surprise for me to be where I was. I didn't

9 know, actually, that I was in Omarska because I'd never

10 been to Omarska before, so I didn't pay attention to

11 details like that.

12 Q. Yesterday I reacted to one of your

13 statements, that is to say, the way in which you

14 presented it, so I'm going to clarify this point for

15 the Trial Chamber by asking additional questions

16 through this cross-examination, and try to clarify some

17 matters.

18 You mentioned that the buses that came later,

19 that from these buses -- that in these buses two of

20 your neighbours arrived, and that they got out of the

21 buses beaten up and that they said that they had been

22 at the police station. Is that correct?

23 A. Yes, but at that moment --

24 Q. Just give me an answer. So your answer is

25 yes there. Thank you. Could you give us their names,

Page 2195

1 place?

2 A. Ismet Okic and Hamdija Brkic.

3 Q. Ismet Okic and Amir Brkic?

4 A. No, Hamdija.

5 Q. Hamdija?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Where were they put up?

8 A. Before that we had already been taken into

9 what had been called Mujo's room. I was in Mujo's room

10 at the time --

11 Q. Just one moment, please. At that particular

12 time you say you were in Mujo's room.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Just slowly. I know you were taken in there,

15 but let's take it step by step. How did you see them

16 getting out of the buses beaten up?

17 A. Because they told me that their bus had

18 stopped off at the SUP.

19 Q. But you said yesterday that you saw them

20 getting out of the bus beaten up.

21 A. That's not what I said.

22 Q. You did say that. You said it again a moment

23 ago.

24 A. No.

25 Q. Very well. Let us go back to the question

Page 2196

1 that was asked by my distinguished colleague, Madam

2 Hollis, and it is page 48, line 24 of the transcript,

3 and that's how I understood his statement. "I think he

4 told us his name but I'm not sure --" no, I apologise.

5 I've made a mistake. Let us go back.

6 Madam Hollis yesterday said that they had

7 gone into the room and that they were beaten up, and so

8 the conclusion is that they were beaten up in the

9 dormitory, in Mujo's room. Were they beaten in Mujo's

10 room or not?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Very well. The answer is no, which means

13 that these two individuals did come to Mujo's room, you

14 contacted with them the first time and they told you

15 that they had been beaten up.

16 A. In the SUP.

17 Q. I see. In SUP. That evening, was anybody

18 else beaten in Mujo's room?

19 A. In Mujo's room, no.

20 Q. (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 A. I don't remember whether he was or not,

25 because I came in late.

Page 2197

1 Q. Do you know Half Berek and the teacher

2 Mr. Oklopcic?

3 A. I do know him because I know him as a

4 football player. I would always watch football games.

5 Q. On the 30th of May, 1992, was he together

6 with you in Mujo's dormitory?

7 A. I don't remember whether we were there

8 together, because up until that moment we would be

9 taken out -- I don't know.

10 Q. So you don't know whether you saw him.

11 A. I didn't see him that day.

12 Q. Let us return to the question of the pista.

13 You went into Mujo's room a moment ago too quickly.

14 I'm speaking figuratively, of course.

15 Witness AI, how long were you on the pista

16 after you got out of the bus and were searched, up

17 until the time, as you state, you were addressed by

18 Mr. Kvocka?

19 A. Well, about two hours, an hour or two. I was

20 on the pista for that time.

21 Q. Did you ever see him before?

22 A. No. I didn't know him.

23 Q. That means -- can we agree that you saw

24 Mr. Kvocka for the first time, as you say, in that

25 particular contact on the pista?

Page 2198

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. How did Mr. Kvocka address you? Did he just

3 address you yourself personally, or the whole group of

4 200, 300 people?

5 A. As far as I remember, he addressed us in the

6 following way -- I don't remember.

7 Q. I'm asking whether he addressed just you or

8 the whole group?

9 A. He addressed all of us, said that everything

10 would be all right, that we would be interrogated and

11 returned home.

12 Q. Thank you, Witness. Yesterday you said, and

13 that is page 48 now, "Yes, that is how I understood his

14 statement. I think he told us his name but I'm not

15 sure. But never mind. Later on I learnt that his name

16 was Kvocka."

17 Witness AI, are you quite sure, in view of

18 the doubt that you yourself express when asked by

19 Ms. Hollis, that he addressed you and introduced

20 himself by giving his name and surname? When you say

21 that "I later learnt of that"?

22 A. He introduced himself, Kvocka, but I didn't

23 pay much attention to him. I just remember his face.

24 And then when we talked amongst ourselves, I realised

25 that that was that man. But he did address --

Page 2199

1 introduce himself but he didn't say his name --

2 Q. Just one moment, please. A moment ago you

3 said "I didn't remember his image, his face."

4 A. Yes, I said that. I did say that.

5 Q. Very well. So you said that you didn't

6 notice his face that evening.

7 A. Well, I didn't remember it much. I saw the

8 face but I didn't remember it.

9 Q. Yes, you said you saw the face but didn't

10 remember it.

11 A. Yes, because it was all a surprise to me.

12 Q. Thank you very much. Thank you, Witness.

13 A. But that's the man.

14 Q. You have already confirmed that in the course

15 of August 1995 you gave a statement to the

16 representatives of the Tribunal.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did the gentleman who took your statement

19 introduce himself by giving his name and surname and

20 his official function; yes or no, please?

21 A. He -- possibly he did introduce himself but I

22 don't know.

23 Q. So he introduced himself.

24 A. Well, yes.

25 Q. Did his associate introduce herself, who was

Page 2200

1 with him?

2 A. No, she did not. She just at moment --

3 Q. Very well.

4 A. She just went in and came out. Came in and

5 went out, sort of. I don't remember exactly.

6 Q. Witness AI, how long on that particular day

7 did you spend talking to, and I'm going to tell you his

8 name, to Mr. Grant Niemann, a very distinguished lawyer

9 and experienced one? How long did you discuss things

10 with him?

11 A. Not long.

12 Q. How long?

13 A. Perhaps 20 minutes to half an hour. I wasn't

14 there for long. Twenty minutes, half an hour. I don't

15 know how long exactly I was in there. But he didn't

16 abuse me in any way or anything like that.

17 Q. Therefore, that means that we can agree on

18 one point: that you and Mr. Niemann talked for about 20

19 minutes, and that during that time your statement was

20 translated, printed out, typed out, that it was read

21 back to you in English, that you signed it --

22 A. I apologise --

23 Q. Please let me finish. And that in the

24 English version, you even --

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic,

Page 2201

1 I think that you are drawing too many conclusions. Ask

2 your questions of the witness and let him answer. Say,

3 "How long did --" what I was saying was the

4 following: Ask questions one by one. Don't make the

5 conclusions yourself. The witness gave you an answer,

6 and he said that he spent 20 minutes in the interview.

7 Now, leave the conclusions to the end. Ask your

8 questions first, otherwise you're going to enter into

9 an argument with the witness.

10 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

11 Your Honour.

12 A. I apologise. I have an answer to make. When

13 he asked me, I thought that he meant the interrogator

14 in Omarska, and that is why I said 20 minutes, half an

15 hour. I didn't understand his question. So I'd like

16 to clear that point up. I thought you were talking

17 about Omarska. I thought counsel was asking me about

18 Omarska.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well,

20 Witness. Mr. Simic will restate his question to

21 clarify matters.

22 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Witness AI, how long did the interviews last

24 between you and Mr. Niemann on the 16th of August,

25 1995?

Page 2202

1 A. I can't tell you exactly, but it was rather a

2 lengthy conversation. I can't tell you the exact time,

3 how long it lasted.

4 Q. Well, was it one working day, for example?

5 A. Well, not the whole working day, but, you

6 know, time passes very quickly when you're doing that

7 sort of thing. I was speaking freely and so on.

8 Before that I thought you were asking about the Omarska

9 interrogation.

10 Q. Very well. I accept your explanation there,

11 on that point.

12 That was August of 1995; that means three

13 years after the end of that unfortunate Omarska

14 affair. Did you, on that occasion, remember more

15 fully, better, the events, in view of the fact that it

16 was closer to the time when it had happened?

17 A. Well, I would say I remembered it better,

18 yes.

19 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I should now

20 like to ask the witness to be shown the statement of

21 August 1995, and at the same time to distribute one

22 copy of the English version to the Trial Chamber.

23 Q. Witness AI --

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic,

25 just one moment, please. Before we continue, can we

Page 2203

1 have the number of that exhibit? I would like to have

2 the number of the document.

3 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President,

4 we are just presenting a piece of evidence and we'll

5 later decide whether we're going to tender it into

6 evidence for admission, after the talk with the

7 witness. Yesterday you said we would assign numbers at

8 the end of the hearing. But according to our records,

9 this is D59, this document has been assigned the number

10 D59. But it is not the Defence Exhibits that have

11 already been tendered, they are the ones that have come

12 up. But let me facilitate matters for the transcript

13 and the record, we expect that the registrar will

14 assign it a definite number later on.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What I said

16 yesterday was that we're going to discuss the

17 admissibility of documents at the end. But while we're

18 working with a document, we have to identify that

19 document and that is why I'm asking, now the registrar,

20 to give us a number for that document. Whether it will

21 be tendered into evidence and admitted or not, that is

22 another matter. But you're talking about a piece of

23 paper and we don't know what it is. So if we give it a

24 number, it is identified. It can be tendered later on

25 and admitted later on; that's another question. But

Page 2204

1 madam registrar, may have I the number, please?

2 THE REGISTRAR: It is D25/1.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

4 Thank you. Mr. Simic, we now have the number; it is

5 D25/1. And now you can always refer to the document by

6 that number and we'll all know what document you're

7 talking about. Thank you. Please continue,

8 Mr. Simic. I apologise for interrupting you.

9 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Witness AI, would you look at page 2 of that

11 document, and you have underlined in green the portion

12 that I wish to discuss with you. In the talk with

13 Mr. Niemann, in your conversation with Mr. Niemann, in

14 paragraph 4 you state the following: [as interpreted]

15 "Some of the guards in Omarska whom I

16 remember were: Kvocka (which means hen); Pop (which

17 means Priest); Ckalja, the shift leader; Krkan; Zeljko

18 Meakic, the camp commander; Zoran Zigic; Dusko Tadic;

19 Slobodan Dosen; Vojvoda (means duke); Sasa Stjepic, he

20 only came occasionally."

21 Have you found that passage in your

22 statement?

23 A. Yes, I have. I was able to follow it.

24 Q. Was that statement clearly read out to you?

25 A. Yes, it was.

Page 2205

1 Q. Thank you.

2 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I should now

3 like to ask the usher to give me the English version

4 back again for a moment, because there's a detail that

5 I have to refer to.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] In the

7 meantime, Mr. Simic, in the meantime, Mr. Simic, I

8 would like to take advantage of this interruption to

9 say that it is a good idea to underline the paragraph

10 that you're working with and asking the witness about.

11 This is very good procedure for the future, to

12 identify. So it's a very good idea of yours to have

13 underlined the passage that you're concerned with for

14 the witness' and our benefit.

15 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Witness AI, did Mr. Niemann, as a highly

17 conscientious and responsible person, when the

18 statement was read out to you, did he ask you to

19 initial the correction next to the name "Zeljko

20 Meakic"? Look at the English version, please.

21 A. Yes, these are my initials. My initials,

22 yes.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 A. It wasn't written -- spelt correctly.

25 Q. So the only correction had to do with the

Page 2206

1 spelling of the name of Mr. Meakic. Thank you.

2 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I don't need

3 the document any more. Thank you.

4 Q. As we were speaking about your statement, in

5 which, of your own free will, you described Mr. Kvocka

6 as a guard that you remember, let us continue with

7 questions about Mr. Kvocka. Did he have any relatives

8 in Omarska? Did you hear about that?

9 A. There was another guard who was called

10 Kvocka.

11 Q. Do you know whom Kvocka is married to?

12 A. I later learnt that he was married to someone

13 from Skela.

14 Q. What ethnicity is his wife?

15 A. That is what I heard, whether it's true or

16 not. That was in the camp.

17 Q. Witness AI, were there relatives of Kvocka's

18 wife in the camp?

19 A. I don't know. Whether there were or not, I

20 don't know.

21 Q. Do you know somebody called Trta?

22 A. Emir Trta, yes, I do know him.

23 Q. You said here that you learnt from Mr. Trta

24 that the brothers of Kvocka's wife were in Omarska.

25 A. It's possible that I did.

Page 2207

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What is the

2 objection, Mr. Nikolic? I'm sorry for the

3 interruption.

4 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] The

5 transcript. In answer to a question, the witness

6 answered what ethnicity Mr. Kvocka's wife was, but it

7 didn't appear in the transcript.

8 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

9 Q. What ethnicity was Mr. Kvocka's wife?

10 A. As far as I knew, she was Muslim.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

12 very much, Mr. Nikolic.

13 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Talking about Mr. Kvocka, let us clarify a

15 few other details. In one of your statements you

16 mentioned, or rather you stated, that Mr. Kvocka

17 occasionally came to Omarska in a white Mercedes; is

18 that right?

19 A. It's possible that it was a white Mercedes.

20 Q. What type?

21 A. One of the older models. 200D, I think, not

22 the new models.

23 Q. Witness AI, we're talking about the year

24 1992. There was a new model -- so it was an old model?

25 A. Yes. Yes, it was a classical type of old

Page 2208

1 Mercedes.

2 Q. My assistant who knows the models said that

3 they were the old 123.

4 A. I'm afraid I don't understand the models of

5 Mercedes. I'm not in that category.

6 Q. Let's go back to your first 10- or 15-day

7 stay in Omarska. You stated yesterday that during the

8 first 10 or 15 days people were not mistreated, that

9 some people even volunteered to be interrogated, that

10 some people after those interrogations were released

11 home. Is that correct?

12 A. Correct.

13 Q. Could you try and estimate the number of

14 people who were released to go home?

15 A. I can't tell you that. At the beginning that

16 is true, some people were interrogated and then

17 released.

18 Q. But can you tell us, did this happen

19 throughout those first 10 or 15 days?

20 A. To tell you the truth, I can't remember. But

21 it is true that some were released. There were cases

22 of people being released. Where they went, I don't

23 know. Whether they went home or not, I don't know.

24 Q. But, anyway, they left Omarska. As far as

25 you know, they went home, but you're not sure.

Page 2209

1 A. Yes. I don't know where they went.

2 Q. You spoke at length about seeing bodies in

3 Omarska. Fully appreciating your problem with

4 determining dates, in view of the terrible experiences

5 you went through which I deeply regret, could you say

6 that during those first 10 or 15 days, was there

7 violence and bodies?

8 A. Yes. I think the second or third night,

9 somebody was killed in the restaurant. I didn't

10 mention it yesterday. I don't know who did the

11 killing, and that is why I didn't mention it. A man

12 was beaten up in front of the restaurant too.

13 Q. Just a moment, please. So on the second or

14 third night after your arrival, a person was killed in

15 the restaurant.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. I should now like to go back to an event that

18 you described in some detail yesterday.

19 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] It is Exhibit

20 P3/83. So I should like to ask the usher for his

21 assistance.

22 Yesterday you were commenting and marking on

23 this photograph with "X", indicating one person, and

24 Mr. KV, Kvocka, as the other person; is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2210

1 Q. You stated that you were at the pista, that

2 the situation was normal, you were talking, sitting

3 there.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Can you describe this young man "X"? As far

6 as I can see, he's coming from the entrance and going

7 towards the pista; is that correct? And can you

8 describe him?

9 A. I'm not sure about describing him. He was in

10 a military uniform. I didn't look at him closely. He

11 was yelling. He would come earlier on --

12 Q. Just a moment, please. So you can't describe

13 his face, but you can describe, or rather confirm, that

14 he was wearing a military uniform; is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. A moment ago we were talking about military

17 policemen or an ordinary soldier. Could you notice

18 that?

19 A. As far as I can remember he was wearing a

20 military uniform.

21 Q. Did he have a belt?

22 A. No, he didn't have a white belt. No, he

23 didn't. I didn't notice that at that point.

24 Q. Did you not pay attention, or was he not

25 wearing a white belt?

Page 2211

1 A. I didn't really pay any attention to that.

2 Q. This area in front of you on the photograph,

3 was any other guard present there?

4 A. There were guards. Kvocka was talking to

5 some guards here at the entrance, and there were guards

6 there, the people who were watching over us.

7 Q. Did you recognise any one of them?

8 A. I can't say now which shift it was, Krle's or

9 Krkan's. I can't remember the details. I just

10 remember this man coming and yelling.

11 Q. You remember that a little bit.

12 A. Yes. It is still in my memory.

13 Q. Did you see this young man talking to anyone?

14 A. No, I did not. That is what I saw that

15 moment --

16 Q. Just a moment, please. Where is Mujo's room

17 in relation to this first "X"? Behind his back?

18 A. Towards the garage. At the end of this --

19 there's the garage and then comes Mujo's room.

20 Q. The garage and then Mujo's room, so we agree

21 on that. This person is moving from Mujo's room

22 towards the pista.

23 A. No, not from Mujo's room. When I saw him --

24 Q. Is he moving away from Mujo's room?

25 A. As far as I know, he was coming from the

Page 2212

1 entrance gate.

2 Q. And when you're coming from the gate, you

3 have to pass by Mujo's room and the garage. Will you

4 look at the monitor, please? Is the gate -- will you

5 show us where the gate is, to simplify matters?

6 A. In this direction [indicates], over there.

7 It's not on the photograph.

8 Q. That's what I'm saying too. So he's coming

9 from the gate, passing Mujo's room, and approaching you

10 to call out people, without talking to anyone.

11 A. I didn't see him talking to anyone.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 A. I didn't say that he went to Mujo's room, I

14 just said where I saw him. That's all.

15 Q. That's fine. Thank you. Let us now go back

16 for a moment to the mentioned -- the bodies you

17 mentioned.

18 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] And D5/61, it

19 is a photograph, and we are producing it for the first

20 time.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me.

22 I think that we have to be quite clear now. Mr. Simic

23 mentioned D5/61. Is that the official mark of the

24 Registrar?

25 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] No, it is our

Page 2213

1 new marking. It is evidence that we are producing for

2 the first time.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] In that

4 case, it still doesn't have an official number.

5 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] But it is our

6 number, it is the number we gave it.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But that is

8 your business, but not for all of us. For us it is the

9 Registrar who has to mark it. So to avoid all

10 confusion, as you see, the registrar was looking for

11 the exhibit and it doesn't exist in the file. So let's

12 be careful. The exhibit doesn't exist in our file; it

13 is the first time that it is going to be produced.

14 Therefore, you have to give it an official marking

15 now. So in future you will say, "I wish to produce

16 this document," without giving it any number, otherwise

17 there will be disastrous confusion.

18 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Before, that

19 was how we proceeded, and I was acting in the same

20 manner.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] There is no

22 point in looking for it. Yes, you're right,

23 Mr. Simic. Never mind. Madam Registrar, how will this

24 new document be marked, the one that Mr. Simic, the

25 Defence attorney of Mr. Kvocka, wishes to produce?

Page 2214

1 Will you identify it now, please?

2 THE REGISTRAR: Normally if it is the

3 exhibits used for Kvocka, then it should be "/1". So

4 there is no such number like this, such as "/65".

5 MR. LUKIC: It should be D26. The last one

6 was D25.

7 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President,

8 the registrar has been notified of certain Defence

9 exhibits, but as the Defence has not started its case,

10 all the exhibits have not been produced which we intend

11 to use, and there are new ones that are coming. And

12 the Registrar is trying to find this exhibit among

13 those that I have already disclosed, but this is a

14 completely new exhibit appearing in the Tribunal for

15 the first time, and it just needs to be marked for

16 identification. That's all.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. That

18 is what we have been waiting for for some time, that

19 the registrar tells us the number of this exhibit which

20 is being produced for the first time.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Sir, are you telling me that

22 this is a new exhibit you're going to tender to the

23 Court?

24 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, it is a

25 new document.

Page 2215

1 THE REGISTRAR: Okay. So the number is going

2 to be D26/1.

3 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Could the

4 document be shown to Witness AI, please.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Can I also have some more

6 copies of this? Because I only have one copy of that.

7 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I'm afraid we

8 have no further copies. We got this document from the

9 Prosecution and we didn't have the technical

10 possibility of reproducing it. But we'll deal with

11 that later.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, you

13 can produce copies later. But for the moment it has to

14 be registered with the Registry, and it has now been

15 marked as D26/1. So please continue, Mr. Simic.

16 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. You mentioned the pista frequently.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Can we agree that it is an area, the edges of

20 which were marked by these concrete flower pots?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now, let us describe the boundaries of it.

23 You see the policeman standing there; you see the

24 first, if we can call it, flower pot, concrete flower

25 pot. Does that mean that the borders of the pista, I'm

Page 2216

1 referring in relation to the "white house," begins from

2 the entrance to the restaurant or the central

3 administrative building?

4 A. Yes. Those flower pots were along the side,

5 yes.

6 Q. So the restaurant was not part of the pista.

7 I think you understand what I'm saying.

8 A. The restaurant was in front of me, and I was

9 on the pista, for instance.

10 Q. Yesterday you said that you were sitting next

11 to the wall of the hangar most often. From that

12 position, is it possible to see the "white house"?

13 A. Not really.

14 Q. Thank you. Having mentioned the "white

15 house," yesterday you stated that you never saw

16 Mr. Kvocka entering the "white house."

17 A. As far as I can remember, that is so.

18 Q. Let me go back again now to the statement you

19 gave on the 18th of September, 1998. On that occasion,

20 did the person taking the statement from you introduce

21 himself?

22 A. Yes, he did.

23 Q. Can you remember his name?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Do you know who was the interpreter?

Page 2217

1 A. Yes, I do.

2 Q. Who?

3 A. I think her name was Aida.

4 Q. Was that statement given in the same way to

5 Mr. Niemann, of your own free will, professionally,

6 without any kind of pressure?

7 A. Yes, absolutely. Without any pressure or

8 anything.

9 Q. Did you again sign that statement in the same

10 way?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. So the procedure was the same.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. So as not to waste time, let me quote two

15 lines from your statement: "Many times I saw Kvocka

16 entering the white house. I don't know what he was

17 doing there. He would usually stay inside 10 to 15

18 minutes. I remember he was also escorted by a guard."

19 A. I remember saying that.

20 Q. Thank you. We don't need any explanations.

21 To finish with this statement, a moment ago you

22 explicitly stated that you saw Mr. Kvocka for the first

23 time on the 30th of May, 1992 when he came to you and

24 the other prisoners on the pista. I have to remind you

25 again of your statement from 1998. This will speed

Page 2218

1 things up. I want to finish by the break.

2 "The first evening when we arrived at the

3 camp, Kvocka was present, when they searched us and

4 beat us. When they beat the prisoners and took our

5 personal belongings, we had to bend our heads and we

6 were ordered not to look around."

7 Did you sign this statement?

8 A. Yes, I did.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 A. But I said that he didn't beat me. Maybe it

11 was translated differently. They were beating others

12 but not me personally.

13 Q. Thank you. Thank you. I'm just saying what

14 you stated.

15 A. I stated that, yes.

16 Q. We are back to the 30th of May, 1992. That

17 evening, did something happen which was out of the

18 usual? Did you see or hear anything?

19 A. I heard but I didn't see that there were

20 beatings.

21 Q. So you just heard buses come and beatings.

22 That is all I asked you. Thank you.

23 A. There was shooting too, but I'm not sure of

24 that now.

25 Q. Will you repeat that?

Page 2219

1 A. I think there was shooting too, but I didn't

2 see where it came from. I don't want to enter into any

3 details that I'm not sure of. I want to forget much of

4 those things. I don't care about these people here.

5 It's Drazenko Predojevic who did me the worst evil, and

6 I would like to reach him.

7 Q. Let us bring things to a close. You said

8 yesterday that you saw Kvocka talking to the guards and

9 moving around.

10 A. Yes, that's -- I never said I saw him hit

11 anyone.

12 Q. Very well. But did you ever hear that he

13 gave orders to anyone to kill or to beat or anything?

14 A. No, I never heard him say any such thing.

15 Q. Thank you. Finally, just a couple of

16 questions more. Are you familiar with the organisation

17 of the police?

18 A. What do you mean?

19 Q. How it functions, the services, the head of

20 departments, and so on.

21 A. No, I don't.

22 Q. Do you know how the chain of command goes?

23 A. I know there must be chiefs and that sort of

24 thing.

25 Q. Do you know how these people are appointed?

Page 2220

1 A. I think it was the president of the

2 municipality who would appoint them, but I don't know

3 any more than that.

4 Q. Witness AI, I have no further questions for

5 you. Thank you once again, and I must say how deeply I

6 regret what you went through once again, and I hope

7 that you will recover fully, as much as possible.

8 A. That is what I would like too, to regain my

9 strength.

10 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] We would like

11 to tender the statement from 1994 as an exhibit,

12 Mr. President.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We'll

14 consider that at the end of the entire

15 cross-examination. Is that all right?

16 I think now it is Mr. Fila's turn, but I

17 think we first have to have a break. I think this is a

18 good time for the break. It is two minutes to eleven.

19 So we're going to have a half hour break. Thank you.

20 --- Recess taken at 10.58 a.m.

21 --- On resuming at 11.34 a.m.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be

23 seated.

24 We are going to resume the hearing with the

25 cross-examination of Witness AI by Mr. Fila. But I see

Page 2221

1 Mr. Simic on his feet.

2 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

3 just one comment or objection to the transcript that I

4 have received from my colleagues, and that is that it

5 wasn't introduced into the LiveNote, Witness AI's

6 statement, when he decisively stated that he had

7 nothing against Mr. Kvocka. So in order to avoid any

8 misunderstandings, I should like this to be corrected

9 in the LiveNote, or to be reinserted, reconfirmed by

10 the witness himself, perhaps.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We all

12 heard that, and everyone interpreted what the witness

13 said. It is true that the witness did say that, and we

14 have taken due note of it.

15 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

16 Your Honour.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila,

18 you have the floor, and you may start off with your

19 examination.

20 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you,

21 Mr. President. I should be brief.

22 Cross-examined by Mr. Fila:

23 Q. In your testimony -- first of all, good

24 morning, Witness, Witness AI. I don't like using the

25 initials, but anyway. You said at the start of your

Page 2222

1 testimony that when you came on the 30th of May, there

2 were military men and special units from Banja Luka,

3 and later on you spoke about the guards as well. Now,

4 are these three different things you're talking about,

5 or were these elite units and the army the same? Could

6 you tell me a little more about that?

7 A. I think it was the special police, the

8 special police unit that was there. And after a

9 certain amount of time they left.

10 Q. Very well. That's one point.

11 A. Second, the guards. The guards were those

12 who were wearing uniforms. Some had military uniforms,

13 others had police uniforms.

14 Q. So there were two categories: these special

15 units and the guards.

16 A. Yes. But a third category --

17 Q. Yes, well, the army. What do you mean by a

18 third category?

19 A. Yes. There was a third category, the army.

20 Q. So there wasn't anything --

21 A. Well, as I say, there was the special police

22 unit and these others in these mixed uniforms.

23 Q. Very well, we've cleared that point up. Now,

24 I'm interested in the following: These special units,

25 do you know under whose command they were?

Page 2223

1 A. No.

2 Q. Did the guard -- was the guard in command of

3 these special units?

4 A. I don't know.

5 Q. So that's another point. You don't know the

6 relationship between the special units who came and

7 went and the guards that were there until the end, all

8 the time you were there.

9 A. That's right. I don't know.

10 Q. Did some of these people have green uniforms,

11 camouflage uniforms or ordinary green uniforms?

12 A. Well, they had the army olive-green/grey

13 uniforms. The guards did too.

14 Q. Now, those wearing those olive-green

15 uniforms, did you see them throughout your stay there

16 or did they go off somewhere?

17 A. Well, the guards had these -- both these

18 uniforms.

19 Q. But what about the army? I'm interested in

20 the army.

21 A. Well, I can't remember. I can't remember the

22 details of who was wearing what and who belonged to

23 which forces.

24 Q. Sir, please don't tell me anything you don't

25 remember, and I don't mind if you tell me that you

Page 2224

1 don't remember. And I would find it very strange if I

2 were to remember anything in those circumstances

3 either, so I do understand.

4 The next question I'm interested in is the

5 following: You said that someone seems to have done

6 the schedules for the guards and shifts in advance.

7 What did you mean by that?

8 A. I think that the leader of the shift knew

9 which guard would be assigned to which position, so

10 that's what I meant, where they would be on duty, on

11 guard duty.

12 Q. Were always the same people in the same

13 spots?

14 A. No.

15 Q. But it wasn't as you did the thing, that you

16 would say, "You go there and you go here," but they

17 knew this in advance.

18 A. Well, as far as I remember, that's how it

19 was.

20 Q. I just wanted to clarify what you meant when

21 you said that. Would you now explain the following to

22 us: What would a shift look like, that is to say, how

23 did the shifts replace each other?

24 A. Well, as far as I remember the shift would

25 come in by bus, they would walk in a column and they

Page 2225

1 took up their posts.

2 Q. What about the previous shift?

3 A. The previous shift would go away. And they

4 would come up towards the restaurant mostly and then

5 would go into the buses.

6 Q. You mean the shift that was leaving?

7 A. Yes, as far as I remember.

8 Q. Do you know where Krkan was standing? Where

9 did he move around? Where did you see him?

10 A. Well, I would see him walking around. He

11 didn't have any set post or position where he stood.

12 Q. Did you ever see him go to the restaurant?

13 Did you ever see him go up -- go through that

14 protrusion there on the building?

15 A. Well, yes, I saw him go there, into the

16 restaurant, he would walk around the pista, and so on.

17 He didn't have a set position.

18 Q. In that glass house, did you see him standing

19 there?

20 A. Well, I didn't follow him around, of course,

21 but I would see him. When I see him, I see him,

22 depending on where he was, whether he was in the

23 restaurant or elsewhere, inside the restaurant, by the

24 restaurant, wherever.

25 Q. You mean this glass semicircular partition,

Page 2226

1 do you not?

2 A. Yes, I do.

3 Q. You told us that Drazenko Predojevic beat you

4 for some reason but you didn't know why?

5 A. That's right, I didn't know why.

6 Q. Did he do this following orders? Did

7 somebody come and order him to hit someone?

8 A. Well, I didn't see him ordered by anyone, by

9 the shift leader or anybody else. I can't say that. I

10 don't know.

11 Q. Was it necessary for anybody to order

12 somebody to beat one of the detainees, or did they beat

13 them at random?

14 A. Well, my conclusion is that they beat them at

15 random.

16 Q. Will you agree with me, then, that it was a

17 state of anarchy?

18 A. Well, yes, but I don't know whether they were

19 told to or not. I didn't hear anybody order one of

20 them to beat the people.

21 Q. Did you complain to anybody about Drazenko

22 Predojevic?

23 A. I didn't dare complain.

24 Q. Very well, then. That means you did not

25 complain.

Page 2227

1 A. That's right, I did not.

2 Q. During the time you spent in Omarska, where

3 was your family?

4 A. When I went home, I learnt that they had been

5 in the Raskovic house.

6 Q. In Prijedor, you mean?

7 A. Yes, in Prijedor.

8 Q. Were they harmed by anybody?

9 A. Well, my father told me later on that they

10 searched the house and that they looted him once and

11 that his ID card was found in another house later on.

12 So things like that did happen, and that's what my

13 father told me happened.

14 Q. When you were released, you went to that

15 house.

16 A. Yes, to that house.

17 Q. In the last seven to ten days of your stay in

18 Omarska, did the situation improve at all?

19 A. Well, as far as I was able to remember, a

20 little bit. There wasn't so much beating going on.

21 Q. When did you leave Omarska?

22 A. As far as I remember, on the 6th --

23 Q. And ten days before that, the situation had

24 improved.

25 A. Well, yes, but the beatings did go on, the

Page 2228

1 roll-calls did go on, but I felt that it was slightly

2 better. I felt a little safer where I was in those

3 last days, but what actually happened, I don't know.

4 Q. When the shifts would replace each other,

5 apart from what you have just described, the

6 replacement of shifts, that is to say, one shift

7 leaving and another arriving, was there anything else

8 when you were on the pista? What did you do on the

9 pista? What did you do on the pista while the shifts

10 were taking each other's turn?

11 A. Well, it depends. We would have to lie down

12 on our stomachs --

13 Q. I'm just interested in the shifts.

14 A. Well, when the shift would come, if there had

15 been beatings, we would all be told to lie face down on

16 the pista and we would do this for hours at times. And

17 I wasn't able to see the details. I can't remember

18 anything special.

19 Q. Let me help you. Was there a ceremony of any

20 kind?

21 A. Well, I don't know. No.

22 Q. So it was just that one shift arrived and the

23 other shift left.

24 A. I didn't notice anything, no.

25 Q. Did this happen in the morning and in the

Page 2229

1 evening, that is to say, did the shifts replace each

2 other in the morning and in the evening?

3 A. When I was in the restaurant --

4 Q. I'm asking you when you saw this. If you

5 didn't see anything, don't tell us, please.

6 A. Well, had I seen anything, I would tell you,

7 but I didn't actually see anything.

8 Q. Can we then conclude that you didn't notice

9 any ceremony taking place when the shifts replaced each

10 other?

11 A. That's correct.

12 Q. Thank you very much.

13 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] That's all from

14 me, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,

16 Mr. Fila. It is now Mr. Tosic's team who has the

17 floor.

18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] If I may,

19 Your Honours. The order of the cross-examination will

20 be done by myself and Mr. Tosic, we shall take turns.

21 But I will start off.

22 Cross-examined by Mr. Stojanovic:

23 Q. Let me introduce myself to the witness, I'm

24 attorney Slobodan Stojanovic from Belgrade, and I'm one

25 of the Defence counsel from Mr. Zoran Zigic.

Page 2230

1 MS. HOLLIS: Excuse me, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Madam

3 Hollis.

4 MS. HOLLIS: Could the Prosecution have a

5 clarification on that? Is it going to be permitted

6 that more than one counsel from a team will be

7 permitted to question a witness? Because we object to

8 that. That could permits lead to ten people examining

9 a witness.

10 In our submission it should be one person

11 from each team who is allowed to question the witness.

12 We thought that was what had already been discussed.

13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] If I may,

14 Your Honour. Let me clarify that. No, I shall only be

15 asking questions of the witness. Just one member from

16 our team. So that was a misunderstanding. That's it.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,

18 Madam Hollis.

19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Witness AI, it is not customary to address

21 people in that way, but I shall respect this rule and

22 address you as "AI." And I hope you will help the

23 Defence in arriving at the truth by your answers.

24 We shall adhere to a sequence of events which

25 you talk about in both your written statements and in

Page 2231

1 your oral testimony. I think that in the first

2 statement it says that on the 30th of May, 1992

3 Prijedor was attacked. Can you tell us something about

4 that? Why was Prijedor attacked?

5 A. Well, to tell you the truth, why it was

6 attacked, I think it was to liberate Prijedor, and

7 power was taken over forcefully. But I wasn't

8 interested in politics so I don't know the details of

9 that.

10 Q. Who attacked Prijedor? Whose forces?

11 A. Well, to tell you the truth, I don't know.

12 And later on I met -- there was this Slavko, but I

13 didn't know him, so I can't really say which army

14 attacked. I can't say.

15 Q. On that day, when your father's house -- when

16 the shooting started, I think you said that --

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. -- and I think that you said you felt safer

19 in that place. Does that mean that you expected some

20 shooting?

21 A. No, I did not. But before that there was

22 some shooting, whether it was at Kozarac, I don't know

23 the details, so that we gathered together in my

24 father's house. We felt safer there because there were

25 women and children there, and that's why we gathered

Page 2232

1 there, for safety reasons.

2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] If I may,

3 Your Honour, I should like to ask an exceptionally

4 important question now by your leave, that is to say,

5 I'd like my client Zoran Zigic to get up so that we can

6 pose a very direct question. And our client insists on

7 this especially. Do we have your permission for him to

8 rise?

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I don't

10 think so. I think the Prosecution carried out the

11 procedure of identification, and we must mirror this

12 procedure in the cross-examination. So you can ask the

13 witness, and there are no questions that are more or

14 less important here in this courtroom. There are only

15 questions. So please say questions without saying that

16 this is a very important question. All questions are

17 questions.

18 Please go ahead, Mr. Stojanovic.

19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your

20 Honours, I was just making an explanation, but I accept

21 your ruling, of course. Therefore, my client Zoran

22 Zigic today is dressed the way the SMB olive-grey

23 uniform, and he would like to ask -- that is, I would

24 like to ask, is this gentleman here the individual who

25 called out --

Page 2233

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Madam

2 Hollis.

3 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, we object to this

4 statement that this accused is dressed like the SMB

5 uniform. That is a statement of fact. The attorney

6 cannot testify. If the attorney wishes to ask the

7 client if any -- the witness if anyone in the room is

8 dressed like that, we suggest that would be

9 appropriate. But we do object to a flat statement that

10 anyone in this room is dressed like the SMB uniform.

11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I

12 apologise. I didn't say he was wearing that particular

13 clothing, but that the colour is similar.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes,

15 Mr. Stojanovic, you can ask the witness the following

16 question: What was your client dressed like? You

17 cannot put answers into his mouth and plead instead of

18 him. So you can ask him how your client is or was

19 dressed.

20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, I

21 won't be asking that question. Let me ask a direct

22 question, then. I shall point to Mr. -- I think that

23 that is the gentleman in the first row, he is sitting

24 to the left-hand side.

25 Q. Is that the gentleman who called --

Page 2234

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No. No.

2 Excuse me, Mr. Stojanovic. I think that you are

3 obstructing our work here at the moment. We have just

4 said that you cannot say that your client is dressed in

5 such and such a way. You cannot say that your client

6 is in the first row either, on the right-hand side.

7 You must ask the witness whether he sees your client or

8 not.

9 Do you understand what I'm getting at? Do

10 you understand what we're trying to point out here,

11 Mr. Stojanovic? You are insisting upon the same point

12 that we have not authorised you to do. Check whole

13 exchange with SM.

14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

15 let me restate the question.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.

17 Please do reformulate the question. Go ahead, ask your

18 question, put your question to it, but do not elicit an

19 answer.

20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Does the witness see in this courtroom the

22 individual who called Kiki, Rezak, and Began Beganovic

23 out?

24 A. I don't remember his face exactly. I didn't

25 look at him too much. And I don't know him, I don't

Page 2235

1 recognise him, and I don't wish to speak about that.

2 Q. Thank you. In your statement of 1998, did

3 you say that Zoran Zigic has light brown hair?

4 A. Possibly I did, possibly I said that, but I

5 always said that I didn't see him properly and didn't

6 actually take note of what he looked like, so I can't

7 really say. I just heard a voice.

8 Q. If you cannot state that, then, I would like

9 to point it out in your statement.

10 A. The man didn't come all the time. He wasn't

11 in the camp non-stop, so I couldn't see -- I didn't see

12 him much, and I didn't know him so I don't want to

13 say -- talk about things I don't know. I heard some

14 things, of course. Possibly I had seen him, possibly I

15 saw him, but I wasn't -- I didn't dare look.

16 Q. I just asked a direct question. Did you

17 state in that statement of yours, dated 1998, that

18 Zoran Zigic was 40 years old?

19 A. Possibly I did say that, but different people

20 came to me and I mixed them up. But as I didn't know

21 him personally, perhaps I did say that, but once again

22 I state I did not know him personally.

23 Q. The individual with light brown hair, did

24 that individual call out Began, Kiki, and Rezak?

25 A. Well, I said, and I remember that there was

Page 2236

1 an individual with brown hair. Now, whether that was

2 Zigic or anybody else. But at one point I heard a

3 voice say "Kiki, Zigic wants you."

4 Q. But you said brown hair?

5 A. Yes, I did, but whether that was actually

6 Zigic or another person, I cannot confirm that at this

7 point because I didn't know him.

8 Q. You told us yesterday that Kiki did move

9 towards the "white house," as he was called out to do?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What about the other two, Rezak and

12 Beganovic?

13 A. I said that I did not know -- I just said I

14 saw Kiki. But whether that happened on that occasion

15 or another occasion, I cannot assert that.

16 Q. Is it correct that --

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I

18 apologise, Mr. Stojanovic. Could you make pauses

19 between your questions and the witness' answers,

20 otherwise we have great difficulty in the

21 interpretation because your voices overlap. Thank you,

22 Mr. Stojanovic.

23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

24 Honours. I do apologise, and I shall do my best.

25 Q. Did you, when the Prosecution showed you a

Page 2237

1 photo spread, did you recognise the individual who

2 called Kiki, Rezak, and Began out and took them off to

3 the "white house"?

4 A. I don't remember recognising them,

5 identifying them.

6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

7 the Defence will not be tendering an exhibit which has

8 already been tendered by the Prosecution, but I would

9 like to refer to Exhibit 3/83A, B, C, and D, and D1,

10 which was presented yesterday by the Prosecution.

11 Q. You said that afterwards you only saw Kiki

12 all bloody, coming out of the "white house"; is that

13 correct?

14 A. Yes. Yes.

15 Q. How far were you able to see him? How far

16 were you able to watch him walk? Was it in a path in

17 front of the "white house"?

18 A. Well, I was lying down so I could see him

19 walk for a metre or two.

20 Q. Where was he then?

21 A. Who?

22 Q. Kiki.

23 A. He was moving towards the restaurant, on the

24 concrete flower pots.

25 Q. So he was on the pista, was he?

Page 2238

1 A. No, behind, because we were lying down on the

2 pista, on the concrete, the asphalt on the pista. I

3 saw that.

4 Q. I'm afraid I didn't understand. Which path

5 are you talking about?

6 A. Well, there were flowers. We were on the

7 pista, there were flowers, and he was the other side.

8 I saw him pass the other side.

9 Q. How far away from the "white house" was that?

10 A. Quite far away, I would say.

11 Q. Was he alone on the occasion?

12 A. He was followed -- escorted by a guard. I

13 saw a number of people. I saw one guard. Who else was

14 there, I don't know. As I say, we were all lying down,

15 and if a guard would notice you looking, he would beat

16 you again.

17 Q. Let us now move on to another area. You

18 received a decision on the termination of your

19 employment for your participation in the rebellion.

20 A. When I got out of the camp, I went to report

21 to my company and I was told to go to the

22 administrative department to see whether I was on the

23 list for termination of employment. And that's what I

24 got, in fact, this decision whereby my employment was

25 terminated and I was no longer able to go to work. I

Page 2239

1 didn't have a job anymore.

2 Q. Did you appeal against that decision?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Does that mean that you did not protest

5 against the allegation that you had taken part in an

6 armed rebellion?

7 A. I know where I was, where I had come from, I

8 knew what the situation was like. I took the decision

9 and went back home. I feared any consequences. And

10 when I read it, I signed it. I was so afraid that I

11 had to.

12 Q. After you left, did your father stay in

13 Prijedor?

14 A. Yes, until 1995.

15 Q. While you were in Prijedor, after you left

16 Trnopolje, until April 1993, did you use power and the

17 telephone in your house?

18 A. I didn't use the telephone. We had

19 electricity when there was any electricity, but there

20 were power cuts often.

21 Q. Do you have in your possession any documents

22 about the fact that you had to sign off your property?

23 A. Personally I do not have possession of those

24 documents, but my wife brought them to me in Trnopolje

25 for me to be able to leave Trnopolje. I didn't dare

Page 2240

1 carry any other documents when I left for Croatia.

2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I wish to

3 thank the witness, and I have no further questions.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

5 very much, Mr. Stojanovic.

6 Madam Hollis, do you have any

7 re-examination?

8 MS. HOLLIS: I do, Your Honour. Thank you.

9 Re-examined by Ms. Hollis:

10 Q. Sir, you were asked questions about the drip

11 that you gave -- that you were given by the detainee

12 doctor. Do you know who gave the doctor that drip?

13 A. No, I don't know who gave it to him. But I

14 did receive it.

15 Q. Do you know if it was given to him

16 specifically to be used by you?

17 A. At the time I didn't know. How he got it, I

18 just don't know.

19 Q. Now, during cross-examination you were asked

20 if you stayed on the pista for your first month.

21 During direct examination, you said you stayed on the

22 pista more than one month. Can you tell the Court, how

23 long did you stay on the pista? Was it one month or

24 was it longer than one month?

25 A. For more than one month, but we slept

Page 2241

1 inside. I may have spent 10 to 20 days in the hangar,

2 and then later in Mujo's room, but I spent most of my

3 time on the pista.

4 Q. Now, you were asked today about uniforms that

5 Kvocka wore and you indicated that he wore a police

6 camouflage uniform. Are you able today to remember

7 what other uniforms, if any, Kvocka may have worn?

8 A. I cannot remember. He may have wore other

9 uniforms but I cannot remember. I can't remember what

10 kind of uniforms people wore, and I wouldn't like to

11 give an incorrect answer. So I just can't recall now.

12 Q. Now, you were also asked about two men you

13 knew who were beaten, Ismet Okic and Hamdija Brkic.

14 Now, when you were in Omarska, that first night you

15 were there, where were you when you first saw these two

16 men?

17 A. In Mujo's dormitory when I saw them for the

18 first time, and they told us that they had been

19 beaten.

20 Q. When you saw them in Mujo's room, did you

21 observe any physical signs of beating?

22 A. They were swollen, with bloodstains. It was

23 visible. One could see it on their face. Of course I

24 saw it.

25 Q. And I believe you testified they told you

Page 2242

1 they had been beaten at the SUP.

2 A. Yes, that's what they said. And even if they

3 hadn't said it, it was visible. They were neighbours,

4 they were there together, so he told his brother.

5 Q. Now, that night in Mujo's room, were they

6 beaten in Mujo's room?

7 A. As far as I can remember, no, they were not,

8 while I was there.

9 Q. Also, speaking about Mujo's room, you said

10 that you went into Mujo's room late that night. When

11 you went into Mujo's room, how many people were in that

12 room?

13 A. Quite a number of people. I tried to find

14 the best place for myself to be able to sit down. I

15 don't know the exact figure. I couldn't even get to

16 meet all the people in the room.

17 Q. Were you able to move freely in that room

18 that night?

19 A. No. You sat down and you stayed there until

20 the morning.

21 Q. Now, you've been asked quite a few questions

22 about the incident where you heard a man calling out

23 names quite loudly, and you were asked what that man

24 was wearing and you said that you didn't look closely.

25 Why didn't you look closely when that man came, yelling

Page 2243

1 out those names?

2 A. Out of fear. I was afraid that he might call

3 me out too. Whenever people came from the outside,

4 they would call out people, and we were afraid. I

5 didn't know those people, so I couldn't say he was this

6 man or that man, and I feared that I might be called

7 out.

8 Q. Now, you also stated, at least the transcript

9 that I read indicated you testified that this man had

10 come earlier on. What did you mean by that?

11 A. Maybe I meant that he had come to the camp

12 before. Maybe that's what I meant, something like

13 that. When I heard his voice, I might have recognised

14 him by his voice as being the same person who had come

15 there before. But I don't know now.

16 MS. HOLLIS: Now, if the witness could be

17 provided with what has been marked as D26/1.

18 Q. Could you look at this photograph, please.

19 Earlier you were asked about this photograph in

20 relation to those flower pots that you see in the

21 photograph. I would like to ask you, looking at the

22 people in that photograph, do you recognise the uniform

23 that those people are wearing?

24 A. In my mind, that is the uniform of the

25 civilian police. Dark trousers and a light blue shirt.

Page 2244

1 Q. So when you testified that some of the guards

2 at the Omarska camp wore the police uniform, the

3 civilian police uniform, is that what you're talking

4 about?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, I'd also like to ask you -- you may take

7 that, please -- some additional questions about this

8 pista area and how you defined the pista.

9 MS. HOLLIS: For those purposes, if the

10 witness could be provided the exhibit which has been

11 marked 3/82. It is a photograph of the model showing

12 various buildings.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Madam

14 Hollis, I wish to remind you that the witness

15 identified on this exhibit what the pista was, but you

16 may ask your question. But I think the witness has

17 already told us that here.

18 MS. HOLLIS: I have an additional question

19 I'm going to ask in that regard, Your Honour.

20 Q. Now, you have testified, you have shown us

21 what area it is that you defined as the pista. First

22 of all, I would like you again to point to that area

23 that you defined as the pista.

24 A. I call this area here [indicates] the pista.

25 That's what I call the pista.

Page 2245

1 Q. Now, on Defence Exhibit 26/1, you were asked

2 about some flower pots. Looking at this area you

3 defined as the pista, can you show us, drawing a line,

4 if you can, can you show us where these kinds of flower

5 pots were placed on the pista?

6 A. I don't understand the word "Zardinjera,"

7 flower pot. Oh, I see. I see. Here [indicates] and

8 here [indicates], and there was some over there

9 [indicates] too.

10 Q. You just pointed to a line that would be the

11 hangar building and the restaurant building, on the

12 side facing the "white house"; is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You have just pointed to a line that would be

15 from the hangar building to the restaurant building, on

16 the side farthest away from the "white house"; is that

17 correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You also pointed to another area with flower

20 pots, and where was that?

21 A. There were some here [indicates] where the

22 tap was, outside Mujo's room, in front of Mujo's

23 dormitory. There was some water there, a tap, a water

24 tap, as far as I can remember.

25 Q. So the area that you have defined as the

Page 2246

1 pista, the one between the restaurant building and the

2 hangar building, you define the boundaries of the pista

3 as those concrete flower pots; is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, I would like to

7 have the witness provided with an exhibit I'm going to

8 mark 3/87A and 3/87B, and these are English and B/C/S

9 versions of the 1998 statement, the English version

10 being "A" and the B/C/S version being 3/87B. Your

11 Honour, I also have copies for Your Honours.

12 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, I have an

13 objection.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes,

15 Mr. O'Sullivan, what is your objection?

16 MR. O'SULLIVAN: In my submission,

17 re-examination by the Prosecution is limited to matters

18 which have arisen out of cross-examination and which

19 may be ambiguous. This witness was never presented

20 with this statement at all during cross-examination,

21 and there's no basis for showing it to him now. It's

22 beyond the scope of cross-examination, and it's not

23 appropriate for re-examination to explore these areas.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

25 Ms. Hollis.

Page 2247

1 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour. It's a

2 bit disingenuous to say that this is beyond the scope

3 of cross-examination. This witness was questioned on

4 several occasions about what he had said in his 1998

5 statement. Now, the Defence didn't choose to show him

6 that statement but they certainly brought the statement

7 into issue.

8 We submit that we have a right to not only

9 question on that but to show him the statement they

10 were using when questioning him, and we intend to offer

11 it into evidence.

12 So we believe that the objection is not

13 well-founded and that we are well within our rights to

14 present him with the statement and ask questions based

15 on this statement, because on cross-examination, he was

16 most certainly questioned about the 1998 statement and

17 the 1995 statement.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. I

19 have to overrule your objection, Mr. O'Sullivan. You

20 know very well that almost all the statements given by

21 the witness were discussed in the cross-examination.

22 Therefore, we overrule your objection, and we ask Madam

23 Hollis to continue with her re-examination. And we

24 should like to have the exhibit, please.

25 MS. HOLLIS:

Page 2248

1 Q. Sir, in cross-examination you were asked

2 about the procedure that was followed when this

3 statement was taken, and you indicated that this same

4 procedure was followed in taking this statement as was

5 followed when your 1995 statement was taken; is that

6 correct?

7 A. Yes. There was no pressure or anything like

8 that. I gave my statement to the best of my

9 recollection.

10 Q. When that statement was concluded, it was

11 then read back to you in a language you understood; is

12 that correct?

13 A. Yes. It was read back to me, yes, without

14 any problems, and I understood it.

15 Q. And then you signed that statement and you

16 also initialled certain pages; is that correct?

17 A. Yes. Correct.

18 Q. Now, sir, I'd like you to look at the first

19 page of this 1998 statement. Does your signature

20 appear on that first page? Look at it in English,

21 please.

22 A. Yes, there is my signature.

23 Q. And then I would like you to look at pages 2

24 through 7 and tell us if your initials appear on those

25 pages.

Page 2249

1 A. Yes, those are my initials. Yes.

2 Q. Would you please look at page 8 and tell us

3 whether your signature appears on that page.

4 A. Yes, it does, up on top.

5 Q. I would like you to look at various portions

6 of this statement in the B/C/S, so I will give both the

7 cite in English and in the B/C/S version.

8 First of all, I would like you to turn to

9 page 3 in the B/C/S, that is also page 3 in the

10 English, paragraph 5 in the B/C/S, which is paragraph 3

11 in the English. Now, on cross-examination, Defence

12 counsel referred to a portion of what is found in that

13 paragraph. I would like to refer to the entire

14 paragraph. Sir, in that paragraph, it indicates:

15 "That first night, when we got to the camp

16 and were being searched and beaten, Kvocka was there.

17 At the time when prisoners were being beaten and our

18 personal possessions were seized, we had our heads

19 bowed and instructions not to look around. Therefore,

20 I cannot say Kvocka was standing close to us during our

21 beating. However, as soon as the search and beating

22 ended, we saw him. I am positive he saw each and every

23 thing the guards did to us."

24 A. Yes, that is a correct statement. At that

25 moment I didn't see him, but he was present there. It

Page 2250

1 is correct. I didn't know him from before, but later,

2 when he introduced himself.

3 Q. Now, again, I would like you to look at page

4 3, the bottom of page 3 in the B/C/S, on to page 4 in

5 the B/C/S. And this is page 3, paragraph 5 in the

6 English. And again, Defence counsel referred to a

7 portion of this paragraph; I would like to refer to the

8 entire paragraph.

9 "On one such occasion I saw Kvocka speaking

10 to a guard near the entrance of the restaurant. At

11 that moment Zoran Zigic came and called out Asaf, Kiki,

12 and Began. I don't know the names of Began and Kiki.

13 Asaf and Began had restaurants in Prijedor, and Kiki

14 had his own private business by the name of Kiki. As

15 Zigic was calling out these names, guards said to the

16 prisoners on the pista to lay on the floor facing the

17 ground. Soon after we heard screams, and there was no

18 way Kvocka could not have heard it. We were facing the

19 floor for at least three hours, and during most of this

20 time we could hear screams and cries coming from the

21 direction of the 'white house.'"

22 Now, is that what you said in your 1998

23 statement?

24 A. Yes. Yes, I said that, but I also said that

25 Kvocka went to the corner of the restaurant, and he

Page 2251

1 could have prevented that. Whether that was the time

2 when Zigic came -- but there was a case when I was in

3 the restaurant. I don't remember these details, when

4 he was talking and then leaving. Whether it was Zigic

5 or one of the other guards, I can't remember now. I

6 know he was present there when Zigic came and called

7 out. But all the details -- where I was, when -- I

8 can't say whether that was that particular moment or

9 another moment.

10 Q. All right. Now, I'm talking about the moment

11 you have described to the Court. Now, I want to ask

12 you: You, in this statement, use the name Zigic; in

13 fact, you use the name Zoran Zigic. Now, how did you

14 know that name?

15 A. From the other detainees I heard the name. I

16 still don't know his name, really. That man doesn't

17 interest me at all. When he came, it was terrible. We

18 all hid. I'd rather not talk about it. Because I

19 personally didn't experience anything. I knew that he

20 was coming, and I hid. He didn't touch me personally.

21 I'm even afraid to think about it now.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

23 Mr. Stojanovic, what is your objection?

24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

25 I think that in this part of the proceedings we are

Page 2252

1 talking at much greater length about Zigic than in the

2 examination-in-chief, and we object and we appeal for a

3 ruling. There are some statements here that are

4 completely new, and we have no opportunity to respond

5 to these statements, nor to the questions asked. I

6 think that more is being said now about Zigic than

7 during the examination-in-chief. Thank you.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Madam

9 Hollis, what is your response?

10 MS. HOLLIS: First of all, there is nothing

11 new here. It's in the statements that the Defence

12 counsel have, so they could have examined about that.

13 Secondly, Your Honour, the reason that I am

14 asking about why he used the name in the statement is

15 that I want the evidence to be clear for the Court that

16 this witness did not know Zoran Zigic but that other

17 people told him about it.

18 The Prosecution believes that so the Court

19 can adequately give weight to this witness' testimony,

20 it's important that they understand that he did not

21 know the name of this witness, and the reason it's in

22 his statement is because he was repeating what others

23 had told him.

24 So it is for that reason that we were going

25 into this. And in addition, Your Honour, part of this

Page 2253

1 was read during the examination of this witness, and

2 identification of Zigic, of course, was raised by the

3 Defence. But we're not trying to bolster a positive

4 identification; we are explaining, through this

5 witness, to the Court, that indeed the witness never

6 knew this man as Zoran Zigic.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes,

8 Mr. Stojanovic.

9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Just a brief

10 response, Your Honour. I should like to remind Your

11 Honours that the statement referred to was not tendered

12 into evidence. We drew attention to only a single

13 sentence from that statement, and that is all.

14 However, the statement, which is more than ten pages

15 long, was not tendered into evidence. Thank you.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

17 Mr. Stojanovic, you read a part of the statement. You

18 opened doors. Each one of you, through the

19 cross-examination, opens doors, and when you open such

20 doors in the cross-examination, you are opening the

21 door for the re-examination. You spoke about this.

22 You're familiar with this rule, or not?

23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] In that

24 case, I should have a chance for a replica.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No. You

Page 2254

1 mentioned this question. It is now up to the

2 Prosecutor to clarify and to close the door you have

3 opened. So we overrule your objection and we ask Madam

4 Hollis to continue.

5 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Q. The next reference in this statement I would

7 like to turn to is on page 4, paragraph 4, in the

8 B/C/S; and it's page 4, paragraph 2, in the English.

9 Now, during cross-examination, Defence

10 counsel pointed out to you that during your testimony,

11 you said that you never saw Kvocka enter the "white

12 house." And then Defence counsel pointed out to you

13 that in the 1998 statement you said that on many

14 occasions you saw Kvocka enter the "white house." Now,

15 you wanted to explain, but you were not given the

16 opportunity to do that, so I would ask you to tell the

17 Court what it was you wanted to explain about this

18 difference.

19 A. I wanted to explain that I said that, but I

20 personally didn't see him enter the "white house." He

21 would go in that direction and then come back 10 or 15

22 minutes later. I didn't actually see him enter the

23 "white house." I didn't want to go into those

24 details. I didn't talk about that yesterday. I only

25 want to talk about what I actually saw with my own

Page 2255

1 eyes. I'd rather not talk about these other details.

2 He went in that direction. Whether he was actually

3 inside the "white house" or somewhere else, I couldn't

4 follow. As far as he's concerned, he never did

5 anything to me. I don't know about others.

6 Q. Now, again, referring to the statement, it

7 would be page 2, paragraph 6 in the English; it would

8 be the last paragraph on page 3, going on to page 4, in

9 the B/C/S. In your 1998 statement you indicated:

10 "I did not know Kvocka from before the war.

11 I remember him introducing himself, saying, 'I am

12 Kvocka and I am responsible for you.' This is how I

13 learnt of him. Later other prisoners who recognised

14 him told me he was Kvocka. He had married a Muslim,

15 and his wife's brothers were also detained in the

16 camp. I discovered all this later from his wife's

17 neighbour, by the name of Amir Trta."

18 A. Yes, I learnt that, but I didn't see her

19 brothers, I didn't know them, so I didn't want to go

20 into any other details. This is all hearsay. I heard

21 this, and that is what I said. I'm only saying what I

22 really knew. I didn't know Kvocka in person, or his

23 brothers-in-law, so I didn't go into those details.

24 MS. HOLLIS: Now, I would ask that the

25 witness be actually shown again the copy of the exhibit

Page 2256

1 that was marked D25/1. If the witness would look at

2 the English version, please.

3 Q. Sir, I believe you indicated that the

4 procedure for taking this statement was the same as in

5 1998; is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, sir, if you would look at that

8 statement, and tell us, looking at page 1 of that

9 statement, does your signature appear on page 1?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. If you would look at page 2, do your initials

12 appear on page 2?

13 A. Yes, they do, about the Zeljko, the name

14 Zeljko, and above that, my initials.

15 Q. And at the bottom of the page, do your

16 initials appear as well?

17 A. Yes, they do.

18 Q. On page 3, does your signature appear?

19 A. Yes. My signature, initials are there.

20 Q. Sir, when you gave that 1995 statement, did

21 you answer the questions that were asked of you, to the

22 best of your memory at the time?

23 A. Yes. I started talking, then they asked me

24 questions, then when I remembered I would say. Because

25 now, sitting here, I sometimes think of things that I

Page 2257

1 didn't say when I was interviewed. But I just want to

2 say that I only am answering what I actually do know.

3 I don't want to go into these minute details.

4 Q. In 1998 did you answer the questions that

5 were asked of you, based on the best of your memory at

6 that time?

7 A. Yes. Yes.

8 Q. Sir, you were asked if you ever heard Kvocka

9 give orders to kill anyone, and you said no, you did

10 not. Did you ever hear Kvocka order the guards or

11 other people in the camp not to kill detainees?

12 A. No, I didn't hear that either.

13 Q. Did you ever hear Kvocka order the guards or

14 other people in the camp to stop abusing detainees?

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I

16 apologise, Witness. Mr. Simic has an objection to

17 make.

18 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes,

19 objection, Your Honour. The witness gave a decisive

20 answer to that question when he was asked it, when he

21 was asked whether he had seen Mr. Kvocka ever order

22 anybody anything, and especially with respect to

23 abuse. And Witness AI said -- he didn't say -- he said

24 he didn't hear Mr. Kvocka give out any orders, and I

25 think it is a tendentious question.

Page 2258

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic,

2 perhaps we can wait to hear what the next question is

3 from Madam Hollis. We're repeating everything the

4 witness said. Sometimes we repeat the witness' answer

5 to be able to ask a question, so let's wait and see

6 what Madam Hollis' question is.

7 Madam Hollis, please continue.

8 MS. HOLLIS: What I would note, Your Honour,

9 that what I saw in the transcript was to the effect

10 that he never heard Kvocka give any orders to do harm.

11 I'm asking if he ever heard Kvocka give orders not to

12 do harm. I believe it is opened by the prior question,

13 and I believe it is a different question. Thank you,

14 Your Honour.

15 Q. Witness, did you ever hear Kvocka intervene

16 to stop any abuse?

17 A. As far as I remember, no.

18 Q. Now, you testified about one occasion when a

19 man came and he was calling aloud names of detainees

20 and Kvocka was present. Did you hear or see anything

21 to indicate that Kvocka questioned that man about who

22 he was or why he was in the camp?

23 A. I said they did not meet at that particular

24 moment. Whether they talked or not later on somewhere,

25 I didn't see, so -- when this man came, the other man

Page 2259

1 left.

2 Q. You were asked why -- you were asked if you

3 ever complained about your beatings, and you indicated

4 that you did not complain. Why did you not complain

5 about these beatings you received?

6 A. Well, if I were to complain, I thought that I

7 would be treated even worse, so I didn't dare complain

8 to anybody. That was the reason. I didn't dare. I

9 always tried to hide, out of fear. I was just afraid

10 to complain.

11 Q. And why did you feel that if you complained

12 you would be treated even worse?

13 A. I didn't have the feeling that the guard

14 would be removed. I thought the guard would exert even

15 greater pressure on me, and that's why I didn't dare

16 complain.

17 Q. Now, these beatings that you received, were

18 these beatings that were out in the open or were you

19 taken away to some private place and beaten?

20 A. Mostly it was out in the open. On my way to

21 the restaurant, Drazenko would hit me. He did so on

22 the pista too. But I wasn't ever called out and taken

23 to a special room; just in these parts. What he had

24 against me, this Drazen, whom I didn't know, I don't

25 know.

Page 2260

1 Q. Now, you mentioned during cross-examination a

2 man named Slavko, and you said --

3 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat

4 the last part of his answer. We didn't hear it.

5 A. They said, "This is Slavko," and allegedly he

6 had taken part in the attack on Prijedor. I don't know

7 this man at all. And he was allegedly in the Green

8 Berets. They used to cry "Ustasha." But I wasn't

9 interested in that. I was afraid, so I didn't pay

10 attention to whether it was Slavko or not. I didn't

11 know him.

12 MS. HOLLIS:

13 Q. Now, this man that they said, "This is

14 Slavko," where was it that you saw him?

15 A. I was on the pista, and I saw him from the

16 pista. He was brought to us. Where he was brought

17 from, I don't know. I didn't pay attention to that.

18 Q. What was his condition when you saw him?

19 A. He was beaten up. His face was all swollen,

20 as far as I was able to see at that moment. But I

21 didn't know the man and I never differentiated between

22 Catholics, Muslims, Orthodox. I didn't know what he

23 was, whether he was an Orthodox or a Serb or a Croat,

24 or whatever. That wasn't important to me. If we were

25 friends, we were friends. I wasn't interested in that

Page 2261

1 kind of thing at all, and that's the same kind of thing

2 I do now.

3 Q. You also were questioned about what happened

4 when you were lying face down on the pista, and then

5 you indicated at some point you saw Kiki, when this

6 incident occurred when he and Began and the others were

7 called out. Now, if you were lying face down on the

8 pista, how were you able to see anything?

9 A. Well, if you move a little bit, and I

10 happened to move a bit and saw what I saw. You raise

11 your head up a bit, that kind of thing. That's how it

12 was. And if -- but if the guards saw you move and take

13 a look, then he would walk across us and beat us until

14 he got to that particular person, so that we did this

15 sort of secretly.

16 Q. You were asked about the decision to

17 terminate you from your employment, and you were asked

18 if you appealed that. You said you did not appeal

19 that. Why did you not appeal that decision to

20 terminate you?

21 A. Well, I said: I had come out of the camp.

22 It was from fear that I would not be returned. So I

23 went home, I talked to my father, asked him what he

24 thought I should do. He said, "Well, stay here. We've

25 got enough food and money." And when this disappeared,

Page 2262

1 he said, "Well let's get the papers together." And I

2 couldn't, because my children didn't have anything to

3 eat, so I had to leave Prijedor. And had I not left, I

4 don't know what would have happened, because I didn't

5 have anything to live on. I had no means of

6 livelihood, no food, no money.

7 MS. HOLLIS: No further questions, Your

8 Honour.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic.

10 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Just one

12 moment, please. Have you got something important?

13 Because it's time for the Judges' questions, as you

14 know full well, at this point.

15 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Bearing in

16 mind that Madam Hollis left the door slightly ajar, I

17 should like to ask you to enable me to ask only two

18 questions in regard to what Madam Hollis brought up.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Identify

20 the door, please, Mr. Simic. What door would you like

21 to open?

22 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Madam Hollis

23 spoke about the possibility of Kvocka hearing this, and

24 I'd just like to clarify that question, and the

25 question related to the orders. Just two brief

Page 2263

1 questions, if you would, please.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Madam

3 Hollis.

4 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, our position is

5 it's a follow-on to the questions that he asked, so we

6 don't think we're opening any doors. But if Your

7 Honours feel it would assist you, we certainly have no

8 objections.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

10 As there are no objections on the side of the

11 Prosecution, and even if there are the Trial Chamber

12 feels that there are rules to follow, but what we are

13 interested in is arriving at the truth and the whole

14 truth. So we're going to authorise you to put your

15 questions, but be quick, please, Mr. Simic.

16 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I should like

17 to express my gratitude, Your Honour. To speed up

18 things, I shall be asking them from this position here

19 and not come up.

20 Further cross-examination by Mr. K.

21 Simic:

22 Q. Witness AI, on several occasions you said

23 today that you only wish to speak about what you know.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Is that right?

Page 2264

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. In connection to Ms. Hollis' question and the

3 transcript, please answer the following: Do you know

4 whether Mr. Kvocka heard what you spoke about?

5 A. If he was in the building, if we heard them,

6 he could hear them too. And I would see him five or

7 ten minutes previously. He had to hear, as far as I'm

8 concerned, just in the same way that we heard them. He

9 had to hear voices, and so on.

10 Q. And if he was in a closed premises?

11 A. Well, he could have heard too, because I was

12 inside and I heard what was going on, so he must have

13 heard too.

14 Q. My second question linked to the orders. Did

15 you ever see Mr. Kvocka issuing any orders whatsoever?

16 A. No, I did not. I have already said that.

17 No.

18 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

19 Your Honours.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila.

21 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I have no

22 objection. Just to clear something up, and it is a

23 matter of interpretation.

24 When I receive the B/C/S interpretation, it

25 says that Madam Hollis, who asked her question as she

Page 2265

1 should have, that is to say, whether the witness was

2 beaten publicly or whatever, and it turned out that

3 Madam Hollis was asking in the plural, whether "they"

4 beat him, which means several people, in the plural.

5 That is the interpretation I got into Serbian. And the

6 witness is clearly speaking about one man, saying that

7 one man beat him and that only one man -- he was beaten

8 by only one man. I don't know what the interpretation

9 will be like in French, so I'd like to clarify that

10 point. Thank you.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Madam

12 Hollis.

13 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, the Prosecution's

14 position is I think ultimately you need to look at the

15 transcript. The Prosecution's recollection of the

16 transcript is that the witness said that it was mostly

17 Predojevic who beat him, "mostly." Not that it was

18 only Predojevic, but mostly. Again, I think we're

19 getting into areas here that are differences of

20 recollection on the transcript, and the transcript

21 should be definitive. But anyway, the Prosecution's

22 recollection is that he never said it was only

23 Predojevic but that it was mostly Predojevic.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila,

25 do you have any objections to the fact that Madam

Page 2266

1 Hollis can repeat the question and hear the witness'

2 answer again?

3 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] No, I have no

4 objections to make. I just say that there are

5 differences in the interpretation. To our answers, he

6 said in Serbian in the singular. Madam Hollis heard

7 something else.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm going

9 to ask Madam Hollis, could you please repeat the

10 question. Put it to the witness again and we're going

11 to record the answer, now that we're all here, and

12 we're going to pay attention to this.

13 Madam Hollis, go ahead.

14 Further re-examination by Ms. Hollis:

15 Q. Sir, I want to ask you a question about the

16 beatings, in the plural, that you received while you

17 were in the Omarska camp. The question is: Did these

18 beatings, in the plural, did these beatings occur in

19 public areas, or were you taken away to some private

20 area for these beatings?

21 A. There were several beatings when I went to

22 get food; more than one guard beat at that time.

23 Drazenko Predojevic beat me especially, but I got it

24 from other guards too. Depending on how I would pass

25 them by, I would either be beaten once or five or six

Page 2267

1 times, depending on your luck. And so those beatings

2 were when we went to get food. I didn't go to get food

3 often because I was sick and so on, all the things that

4 happened to me afterwards, because I was afraid of the

5 beatings. But personally Drazenko did it most.

6 Q. These beatings you referred to when you went

7 to get food were in public areas, is that correct,

8 areas where other people were?

9 A. Yes, of course. Thirty of us would be going

10 in a column, and they would be at the corridor and they

11 would start to beat us until we got our food. So it

12 depends who got what in passing. You might get more or

13 less.

14 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Is that

16 clear now, Mr. Fila?

17 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] It is clear,

18 Mr. President, that there is a difference between to

19 beat and to beat up, or to inflict blows and to beat.

20 The Defence maintains that Drazenko beat him, but here,

21 the 30 of them were going by and they would receive the

22 odd blow. So there's a difference there.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes,

24 Mr. Fila, I think that that goes beyond the conditions

25 that the witness has described. We, of course, are all

Page 2268

1 intelligent individuals and we know the consequences of

2 this. But thank you anyway, Mr. Fila.

3 To round off that question, I should like to

4 take advantage of this opportunity, and I apologise to

5 my colleague, Judge Riad, I'm going to ask the

6 question: Are you able to identify the people, the

7 persons, who beat you, apart from Drazenko?

8 A. No, I'm not able. I have a face in my mind,

9 Drazenko, his face. But everything was very fast, go

10 and take the food, get it back, and that sort of

11 thing.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

13 very much for the moment.

14 I give the floor to Judge Fouad Riad. Thank

15 you.

16 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Thank you,

17 Mr. President.

18 Questioned by the Court:

19 JUDGE RIAD: Witness AI, good morning.

20 A. Good morning.

21 JUDGE RIAD: I have a few questions to ask

22 you perhaps to help me understand more clearly certain

23 points which came in your testimony.

24 The first question which I'd like you to try

25 to clarify is how you could reconcile, really, two

Page 2269

1 things which you mentioned: One, which you repeated,

2 especially when you were cross-examined by Mr. Fila,

3 that prisoners were beaten at random according to the

4 whim of the guard, of the guardians or the prison

5 keepers; and at the same time, when you were in the

6 interrogation room and this guard wanted to hit you,

7 they ordered him not to hit you, while another one, who

8 is Sefik, went into the interrogation room and came

9 out -- was carried out beaten to death. So in fact

10 there was somebody in control, somebody who could tell

11 them, "Don't hit. Don't kill," otherwise they wouldn't

12 have stopped beating you in the interrogation room.

13 What was your assessment in that case? Was there a

14 higher authority that could decide?

15 A. As far as I am able to understand, there was

16 someone there to decide. But when they were

17 interrogating me, I don't know who actually

18 interrogated me, but they might have known my parents,

19 for example, according to my statements that I wasn't

20 guilty, and I'd already lost quite a lot of weight so

21 he probably said, "Don't beat him" because I was

22 telling the truth, so perhaps that is the reason why he

23 didn't allow the other person to beat me, depending on

24 who was being interrogated at that time. So I don't

25 know the reason, actually.

Page 2270

1 JUDGE RIAD: No, I'm not asking you for the

2 reason. But there could be someone saying, "Don't

3 beat. Stop."

4 A. I don't know. At that particular moment, it

5 was that person interrogating me who said that.

6 JUDGE RIAD: Good. Now, speaking about the

7 discipline, you mentioned that the guards came in in a

8 line and the superiors were standing on the side. So

9 did it look like a disciplined prison or camp, or was

10 it something out of any order?

11 A. Upon arrival it looked as if there was some

12 discipline in this order and that somebody did have

13 some authority over the guards, as far as I was able to

14 make out at that time.

15 JUDGE RIAD: You even said that upon arrival

16 there was no beating, and then after that, in the

17 cross-examination, you said that you were beaten and

18 you were searched. I think in the cross-examination

19 with Mr. Simic you said that Kvocka was present when

20 you arrived and you were beaten and you were searched.

21 Is that right? So you were beaten when you arrived and

22 you were searched.

23 A. No, not in my bus, no beating, but maybe the

24 other bus. Perhaps I explained this in a different

25 way. Me personally, nobody beat me, but when the other

Page 2271

1 bus came, they did. Who was there, whether Kvocka

2 or ...

3 JUDGE RIAD: No. You said that Kvocka was

4 present in this case when there was beating. Is that

5 right, or I understood wrong?

6 A. I didn't know that person. I saw him when I

7 got there, and then he introduced himself, when we were

8 supposed to go into the dormitory. So that person was

9 there in that compound. I didn't know him before

10 that. I heard that people had been beaten but I didn't

11 see that. So he must have known. He could not have

12 suddenly turned up and left again. So he was in that

13 circle. But I didn't know him personally so ...

14 JUDGE RIAD: And then you knew afterwards

15 that it was Kvocka.

16 A. Yes, when he introduced himself, then I

17 knew.

18 JUDGE RIAD: But you also said that he did

19 not do any beating by himself.

20 A. That's right. I didn't see that, no.

21 JUDGE RIAD: You did not see that.

22 A. No, he did not beat.

23 JUDGE RIAD: But you noticed that he was a

24 person of authority.

25 A. Yes, because that's how he introduced

Page 2272

1 himself, that he was the chief there and that

2 everything would be okay. He introduced himself. He

3 wasn't terrible in any way, so as far as he's

4 concerned, I haven't got a bad opinion about him, as

5 concerns myself, towards me, that is.

6 JUDGE RIAD: No, I'm just asking you what he

7 did. He did not give any order to stop. He did not

8 beat but he did not give any order to stop.

9 A. As far as I know, he didn't. Had he given

10 that order, it would have stopped.

11 JUDGE RIAD: He would have had the authority

12 to stop.

13 A. According to the way he introduced himself,

14 he did have. Whether there was anybody above him, I

15 can't know that.

16 JUDGE RIAD: Good. I mean, when he was

17 there, was there somebody above him at that moment?

18 A. No, I don't remember that there was anybody.

19 JUDGE RIAD: Also concerning the same thing,

20 concerning Mr. Kvocka, you said when you were sitting

21 in the pista, I won't repeat what you said, Kvocka was

22 close to the man calling the names and he turned

23 afterwards and went to the restaurant, or something,

24 and he could hear, he could hear the cries of the

25 people being beaten. Did I understand you rightly?

Page 2273

1 And he did not interfere.

2 A. Yes. He did not interfere. He went away

3 from the entrance where he was standing, but I don't

4 think he left the building. Perhaps he went outside

5 the camp. I don't know. I didn't see him any more.

6 But if he was present there, then he had to have

7 heard.

8 JUDGE RIAD: But he had nothing to do with

9 the man calling the names.

10 A. I didn't see that they met and had an

11 agreement of any kind.

12 JUDGE RIAD: Now, apparently Mr. Drazenko

13 Predojevic was the man giving you this hard time. Was

14 there anything between you and him, or did he apply

15 this to everybody?

16 A. He beat others mostly too, but he beat me

17 mostly because of my shoes, because I had those

18 worker's boots, or perhaps the guard who took me to

19 interrogation and came back and told me, "You'll pay

20 for that." I don't know. I don't know why, actually.

21 I didn't know him personally so I don't actually know

22 why.

23 JUDGE RIAD: And there was no chance of

24 complaining to the higher authorities. You were

25 completely at his mercy. Because, as you said, at the

Page 2274

1 interrogation room you were protected and somebody

2 protected from that, so nobody could protect you from

3 him?

4 A. Well, possibly they could have but I didn't

5 dare complain.

6 JUDGE RIAD: Now, you mentioned that

7 Mr. Krkan, Krkan's shift was the most cruel, and that

8 he was there from 7.00 in the morning until 7.00 at

9 night. So in a way, he could see completely what was

10 happening.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I

12 apologise, Mr. Fila, but I don't think we ought to

13 interrupt at this point.

14 A. He was there. He had to have known what was

15 going on.

16 JUDGE RIAD: Was he also on a higher grade?

17 Did he look like also, as you mentioned about Kvocka,

18 that he was the head of this division and he could

19 exert orders on them in any form?

20 A. As far as I know, he was under Kvocka, a

21 lower position, but he was superior to the guards.

22 JUDGE RIAD: And you saw him giving orders to

23 the guards in any form and being obeyed?

24 A. I personally did not see him issue anything,

25 but I saw him walking around with the guards, talking

Page 2275

1 to them. Now, whether he issued orders for beatings of

2 any kind, I can't say I heard that. I didn't see it.

3 JUDGE RIAD: No, he did not issue orders for

4 beating. But he did not issue orders for not beating,

5 never?

6 A. No. I didn't notice that.

7 JUDGE RIAD: Now, concerning Krle, you said

8 that you saw him shooting the man before your eyes.

9 Was this man trying to run away?

10 A. I think that there was something wrong with

11 his nerves. He had a sort of breakdown. Krle told him

12 to sit down, and then afterwards he jumped out of the

13 "white house." What happened, I don't know. But

14 Krle's shift was one of the best, and I was surprised

15 that that happened then, that is to say, the best, they

16 beat less. So I was surprised to see that because a

17 couple of times I asked him if I could go to the toilet

18 and he let me, so this was a surprise for me, this

19 reaction. Who knows what he thought at that moment and

20 what actually went on and what actually happened. I

21 don't know. But that's what happened, that's all I can

22 say, as far as I was able to see myself.

23 JUDGE RIAD: Was it customary for anybody

24 trying to run away to be shot? Did you notice anything

25 like that?

Page 2276

1 A. No. That was the first time that I saw this

2 shooting and a man killed. It was the first time.

3 JUDGE RIAD: You did see it clearly. You saw

4 it clearly. You were at enough distance to know what

5 was happening?

6 A. Well, I was where I was. And I saw the man

7 get up. First of all he told him to sit down. Then he

8 took him to the "white house." And they were waiting

9 for a shift to turn up. At that point the man might

10 have jumped out and moved towards the pista and the

11 shot was fired. I don't know the reasons. That's what

12 I saw. That's what I saw happening. Before that, the

13 man cried out, "Stop" to the other one, he didn't stop,

14 and then that's what I saw.

15 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think

18 this is a convenient time to break. Judge Wald has

19 some questions, I do too, but I think we'll have a

20 30-minute recess and resume after that.

21 --- Recess taken at 1.00 p.m.

22 --- On resuming at 1.34 p.m.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Judge Wald,

24 please. Just a moment, please. Please be seated.

25 Judge Wald.

Page 2277

1 JUDGE WALD: Witness AI, you testified, I

2 believe, that Mr. Kvocka addressed the group of

3 detainees on the first evening that you were at

4 Omarska. My question to you is: When he did that, did

5 he in any way identify his own role or position in the

6 camp? I think that when you answered Judge Riad's

7 question you said, "He said he was chief," but earlier

8 you said that he said he was responsible for them. And

9 I just want to clarify exactly how he identified his

10 role when he addressed you that evening.

11 A. He said that he was responsible for us, so

12 this would imply that he was camp commander or a

13 chief. If he says that he is responsible for us, then

14 that means that he is the main person there.

15 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Was that the only time

16 during your stay at Omarska that any camp official

17 addressed the entire group or a large group of

18 detainees, or were there other occasions when other

19 camp officials or Mr. Kvocka again addressed large

20 groups of detainees?

21 A. As far as I can remember, he was the only one

22 who addressed us, introducing himself by name.

23 JUDGE WALD: Thank you. Now, you said, I

24 believe, that things tended to be better around the

25 camp for the detainees when the interrogators were

Page 2278

1 there, the ones that came in the morning and left at

2 5.00. I was wondering how that could be so if so much

3 of the beatings took place on the way to get meals,

4 which you told us happened during the daytime. Maybe

5 you could help me understand that.

6 A. If somebody came from the outside, he

7 wouldn't come during the working hours of the

8 interrogators, and there were fewer call-outs. That's

9 what I was talking about. But the blows as we went to

10 eat, these were happening all the time.

11 JUDGE WALD: In your experience at Omarska,

12 did you ever hear cries or see people coming out of the

13 interrogation rooms, the daytime interrogations, that

14 looked like or sounded like they were being beaten?

15 A. I did hear noise up there, cries. And when

16 they came out, one would see them covered in blood, and

17 I saw one neighbour going up there and he was carried

18 out of there. So what exactly happened in there, I

19 don't know.

20 JUDGE WALD: After the -- thank you. After

21 the interrogators that came from outside the camp and

22 left at the end of the day left, and when people were

23 called out at night, was that supposedly -- were they

24 told they were being called out for interrogations, or

25 did everybody know it was just a call-out for

Page 2279

1 beatings? When the call-outs came at night, what did

2 everybody think or know the reason for the call-outs?

3 A. If they would tell you to take your things

4 with you, that would mean that you would be taken

5 somewhere outside the camp. And if it was just to come

6 out, then we knew it was beatings. So that if you were

7 told to take your things, you knew you wouldn't come

8 back.

9 JUDGE WALD: Okay. At one point in your

10 testimony you said there were three groups in the camp;

11 there were the outside unit of police which left

12 after -- a special police which left after, I think it

13 was, a few weeks; there were the guards which you said

14 included both military and army police; and then you

15 said there was the army. Now, this third group, this

16 third group, the army, were they -- they didn't do

17 guard duty? What did they do around the camp, this

18 third group that you referred to as the army? Were

19 they separate from the guards, and what functions did

20 they perform?

21 A. When I say "the army," I meant a guard

22 wearing a uniform of the Yugoslav People's Army, and if

23 he was a wearing a blue uniform he was a policeman. So

24 maybe there was a misunderstanding. I was just

25 referring to the uniforms the guards were wearing.

Page 2280

1 JUDGE WALD: Okay. That helps clarifies it,

2 but just to pin it down. In other words, there were

3 people wearing regular army uniforms who were in the

4 guard shifts; right? Is that right? Who were part of

5 the guard shifts.

6 A. Yes.

7 JUDGE WALD: Okay. My last question to you

8 is: At any time when you were there, were you ever

9 told that -- or did you ever learn that there were

10 certain times or certain shifts where you weren't

11 supposed to talk or you must be much more quiet than

12 normal?

13 A. We knew amongst ourselves that if Krkan's

14 shift was on duty, and it was one of the worst, so

15 amongst ourselves we agreed to keep quiet. Nobody told

16 us, but we were more fearful than otherwise at night.

17 JUDGE WALD: All right. Thank you, Witness.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

19 very much, Judge Wald.

20 Witness AI, I have a few questions too. Are

21 you able to repeat a conversation using the same words,

22 the words that Kvocka used when he introduced himself?

23 Are you able to quote him?

24 A. As far as I can recollect, I'm not sure

25 whether he uttered his name. He said, "I am

Page 2281

1 'something' Kvocka. I am responsible for you while

2 you are here. You will be interrogated and everything

3 will be all right and then you will be spent back

4 home." That is what he said to us.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

6 Thank you. We now have the words, more or less.

7 Another question. You mentioned when the

8 shifts changed, next to the line of guards was the

9 guard leader, on the side. Was he at that moment

10 giving orders?

11 A. I didn't notice that. But when he reached a

12 certain guard post, the other guard would take over. I

13 didn't notice them exchanging any words. I just saw

14 them changing places. I didn't hear anyone saying "You

15 go there," "You go here," or anything like that.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Generally

17 speaking, you spoke either of Krkan or Krle or Kvocka

18 who were moving around a little, at least you watched

19 them move about in relation to a particular place, or

20 did they move all around the camp? Was there a

21 difference, or did the same apply to Krkan, Krle, and

22 Kvocka? Was there any difference in their movements?

23 A. They moved around normally. They would tour

24 the compound. I saw them walking around, not any

25 particular position. They would go upstairs, to the

Page 2282

1 premises above the restaurant, and so on.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Now, the

3 bodies that you saw behind the "white house" and next

4 to the red building, did Krkan, Krle, or Kvocka, while

5 walking around the camp, could they see those bodies?

6 A. Those next to the "white house," they could

7 have seen, as we saw them from the pista. Also if they

8 went up close down there, they could have seen them. I

9 only saw them when I went to urinate there. It

10 depended on which position they held at the time.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] In relation

12 to the "white house," where was the entrance to the

13 camp?

14 A. It was in the direction of the hangar, the

15 pista there and then the hangar. So it depended where

16 you sat on the pista. If you were on the side, then

17 you could see those bodies, if you were on that same

18 side.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Tell me,

20 please, considering where you are now and where I am,

21 the entrance in relation to the model that we have

22 between us, the main gate, was it on your side or on my

23 side?

24 A. On my side, the main gates to the camp.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Could you

Page 2283

1 please get up and point out the main entrance to the

2 camp, with the help of the usher.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Sorry. The witness is a

4 protected witness, so it is not possible.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

6 very much for drawing my attention to that point. So

7 the main entrance to the camp was on your side.

8 A. Yes.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So the

10 people who were entering and coming out of the camp did

11 not pass by the "white house."

12 A. No.

13 MS. HOLLIS: Excuse me, Your Honour, but it

14 may assist you if, perhaps, the witness were shown

15 3/82, that's a photo of the model, and then he could

16 perhaps point to where you would like him to point.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.

18 That's a very good suggestion. Thank you.

19 Could you put that exhibit on the ELMO,

20 please, Mr. Usher.

21 Thank you very much, Ms. Hollis.

22 Witness, could you please point to the main

23 entrance on that exhibit for us, the main entrance to

24 the camp.

25 A. It was here [indicates], in this direction.

Page 2284

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So on the

2 side of the restaurant building. It was through that

3 gate that you entered the camp in the bus.

4 A. I didn't see it. Yes, but that is where I

5 got off.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

7 very much, Mr. Usher. Thank you.

8 Another question. How many people were in

9 the bus that brought you to the Omarska camp? You have

10 already given an answer to Mr. Simic, saying that there

11 were between 40 and 50. Let me put the question

12 differently. The bus, did it have more persons than

13 sitting space, or was there one person to each seat, or

14 one seat to each person?

15 A. As far as I can recollect, I think we were

16 all sitting. It was a bus belonging to the public

17 transportation system, so that is why I said there were

18 between 40 and 50. I was in the fifth or sixth row,

19 and I was sitting.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You said

21 that you were not in a position to see the people who

22 searched you, but you said that you heard them speak.

23 A. I couldn't see them, yes, but I heard them.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] After the

25 search and during your stay in the camp, did you hear

Page 2285

1 that voice or those voices again or not?

2 A. At that moment I was afraid, so I didn't pay

3 much attention. I may have heard a similar voice later

4 but I can't claim that with any certainty.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Fine. On

6 the 30th of May, 1992, you were sitting on the pista.

7 How much time did you spend in that position?

8 A. It was already nightfall. It became cool

9 when they moved us to Mujo's room. I don't know what

10 time it was, but it was getting cooler, and we were

11 moved inside.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I should

13 now like to go back with you to the semicircular

14 glassed-in entrance to the restaurant. Was Krkan there

15 always, or did he move away from there?

16 A. He moved around, as I said. He didn't have

17 any particular post. All of those leaders of the camp

18 moved around. They didn't have a particular position

19 to hold. I never saw them in one place all the time.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] During your

21 stay at the Omarska camp, did anyone visit you from the

22 outside?

23 A. Not me personally. But there was a colleague

24 of mine from work; whether he came to look for somebody

25 or not, I didn't call his attention to myself.

Page 2286

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But

2 generally speaking, did anybody visit the detainees?

3 A. I don't know.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No one from

5 the International Red Cross came to visit the camp?

6 A. Once I heard that a journalist had come but I

7 wasn't there to see them. I was in the hangar at the

8 time so I didn't see anyone. Whether they came or not,

9 I don't know.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So Witness

11 AI, you have just completed your testimony here at the

12 International Criminal Tribunal. We thank you very

13 much, and we hope that you will be able to recover from

14 your suffering. You may now leave, and we thank you

15 very much.

16 I think the blinds have to be pulled down,

17 Mr. Usher, the blinds.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you all,

19 Your Honours, if I have been of any assistance. Maybe

20 it will make my life easier too later.

21 [The witness withdrew]

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Hollis

23 or Mr. Keegan.

24 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, may we deal with

25 the exhibits at this time?

Page 2287

1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

2 MS. HOLLIS: May be deal with the exhibits at

3 this time, Your Honour?

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.

5 You're quite right, Ms. Hollis. Let's do that.

6 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Your Honour, the Prosecution would offer the

8 following exhibits into evidence:

9 Exhibits 3/80A and B, those were photographs

10 showing vehicles, including what were identified as

11 police vehicles; 3/81, a picture of individuals in what

12 were described as regular camouflage uniforms,

13 including the man identified as Drljaca; 3/82, which is

14 a photograph of the model of Omarska; 3/37, which was a

15 previously marked exhibit which had been filed with the

16 Chamber but was not offered into evidence, that was a

17 photograph of the truck that was identified as the type

18 of truck that carried the dead bodies; 3/83, which was

19 a photograph of the portion of the administration

20 building with the circular portion and the glass facing

21 toward the pista and the hangar, and the witness made

22 annotations on that exhibit; 3/84A through D, that was

23 the photo board exhibit, the composite exhibit dealing

24 with the accused Kvocka, "A" being the notice of

25 procedures, "B" being the interpreter's certification,

Page 2288

1 "C" being the report, and "D" being the copy of the

2 photo board; 3/85A through Delta1, A through D1, this

3 was the composite exhibit of the photo board display

4 dealing with Krle, "A" being the notice of procedures,

5 "B" being the interpreter's certification, "C" being

6 the report, "D" and "D1" being the photo boards.

7 Your Honours, at this time the Prosecution

8 would also stipulate that the third photo array shown

9 to the witness contained the photograph of accused

10 Zigic and that the witness indicated he did not

11 recognise anyone on that photo array.

12 Your Honours, the Prosecution further offers

13 into evidence 3/86A and B, being the decision on

14 termination of employment of this witness, "A" being

15 the English and "B," the B/C/S. We also offer 3/87A

16 and B, that being the 18 September 1998 Office of the

17 Prosecutor statement taken of Witness AI, "A" being the

18 English and "B" being the B/C/S.

19 The Prosecution would give notice to the

20 Court at this time that if the Defence does not

21 introduce into evidence what has been marked D25/1,

22 that is, the 1995 statement of Witness AI, the

23 Prosecution wishes to offer that into evidence as a

24 Prosecution Exhibit.

25 At this moment, those are the exhibits we

Page 2289

1 would move admitted into evidence, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes,

3 Mr. Fila, are you going to speak on behalf of all

4 counsel?

5 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] No, I speak in my

6 own name.

7 Your Honour, there are two points: First of

8 all, a question that the Defence feels needs to be

9 addressed, and that is showing the witness what they

10 said previously. With all due respect for Judge Riad,

11 he said to the witness that he had said that Krkan's

12 shift was the cruelest. I looked through the

13 transcript and I didn't find that statement.

14 So my first question is what are the

15 possibilities of the Defence to respond in view of

16 Article 5 and Rule 85? This is being repeated several

17 times. That is the first issue.

18 The second has to do with the exhibit

19 tendered by my learned friend Ms. Hollis, regarding

20 3/87A and B. This is the statement of Witness AI of

21 the 18th of September, 1998. As you know,

22 Mr. President, in the examination-in-chief, the

23 Prosecution did not use that statement. In the

24 cross-examination, by some Defence counsel it was

25 mentioned but not by me.

Page 2290

1 I have no objection that it be admitted as

2 evidence in relation to Defence counsel who did refer

3 to it. I think it is not fair that what others do

4 should apply to me. I did not open that door, and I

5 move that if that evidence is admitted that all mention

6 of the accused Mladjo Radic be redacted from it,

7 because I didn't refer to it in the cross-examination;

8 it was not mentioned in the examination-in-chief. It

9 is not fair and my Defence will be prejudiced if the

10 consequences of the examination by other Defence

11 counsel are imposed upon me. Therefore, the parts in

12 which Mladjo Radic is mentioned should be redacted.

13 And I wish to underline that Ms. Hollis did not use

14 that statement with reference to Mladjo Radic, not even

15 after the cross-examination by the Defence. She did

16 not mention it in the examination-in-chief, nor in the

17 re-examination.

18 So it is a specific situation, and I would

19 like that part of the statement to be redacted.

20 Otherwise, the rights of the accused to a fair trial

21 would be in jeopardy. Thank you.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila,

23 we have heard well, but this was not the moment for you

24 to speak. When you stood on your feet and I gave you

25 the floor, I thought you were speaking on behalf of the

Page 2291

1 Defence. The rule is to give the floor to the Defence

2 in the order of the indictment, so it's Mr. Simic who

3 should speak first.

4 But in any event, regarding the first point,

5 I have to respond in the way I have already done: The

6 transcript speaks for itself and it will show whether

7 the witness said or did not say what Judge Riad

8 repeated.

9 Another point is that you may draw

10 conclusions about this at the end and you can bring

11 witnesses to deny this, and anyway you can also

12 appeal. But in any event it is not possible to

13 interrupt the Judges when they are asking questions,

14 and that is something that I have to tell you now,

15 Mr. Fila, otherwise --

16 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the

17 only point I wanted to make is that there is no grounds

18 in the Rule for my objection -- and you're quite right,

19 there's no question about that -- but I don't know how

20 to deal with it. Because if you say to the witness,

21 "You said so and so" and he says yes --

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila,

23 you always have the transcript and you can prove that

24 the witness did not say that.

25 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Yes, but then it's

Page 2292

1 too late.

2 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Mr. President,

3 may I for a moment.

4 I was listening to the English translation,

5 and I noted that the witness said that he avoided going

6 to the toilet so as not to be beaten by the guards, and

7 above all that they were fiercest under Krkan's shift.

8 He said this when talking about going to the toilet

9 because during that time it was worse, the situation

10 was worse. If I am wrong, I apologise, and if that is

11 the case -- but if I am right, I should like the

12 attorney to apologise.

13 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I do apologise,

14 but the difference is something else. The question

15 referred to going to lunch.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] In that

18 case, there is a second side to your intervention,

19 Mr. Fila, which we will treat together after we hear

20 the comments by other Defence. In any event, thank you

21 for your remarks.

22 Mr. Simic.

23 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

24 Your Honour.

25 We have already said that we should like to

Page 2293

1 tender into evidence the statement of 1995, D25/1, and

2 on this occasion we should like, as the Defence, with

3 regard to the inconsistencies of statements, would like

4 to tender the 18th of September statement, 3/87A and B,

5 because this statement was taken by the same

6 interviewer one month after the Kvocka interview.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So

8 Mr. Simic, do I understand you correctly, you have no

9 objection to the tendering into evidence of the

10 exhibits that Madam Hollis asked to be tendered and

11 admitted into evidence; is that right?

12 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes. We

13 propose them too, and we do not object to them, or the

14 other proposals either.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

16 very much.

17 Mr. Nikolic, will it be Mr. O'Sullivan who

18 will be taking the floor? That's just what I wanted to

19 know. Thank you.

20 So Mr. O'Sullivan has the floor.

21 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Yes, Your Honour.

22 In regards to admission of exhibits, without

23 commenting or detracting from the objection of

24 Mr. Fila, we have no objection to the admissibility of

25 the exhibits.

Page 2294

1 As to the second point, if I can make a

2 general observation and not limit it to this specific

3 instance raised by Mr. Fila. Your Honours, under Rule

4 85(B), it is clear that the parties, as well as Your

5 Honours, may question a witness. Rule 5(A) is equally

6 clear to the extent that an objection must be made at

7 the earliest opportunity.

8 In my submission, when a witness is

9 questioned and a party has an objection to the form of

10 questioning, regardless of who the questioner is, Rule

11 5 clearly states that that objection must be made as

12 soon as possible, and Rule 5 is not limited in its

13 scope and, in my submission, covers questioning under

14 Rule 85(B).

15 Those, it seems to me, are the parameters of

16 this issue, and it's in that context that objections

17 must be made according to our Rules whenever a party

18 feels that there is a basis for an objection,

19 regardless of who is asking the question.

20 Those are my submissions.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,

22 Mr. O'Sullivan.

23 Mr. Tosic. Mr. Stojanovic, rather.

24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your

25 Honours, we have no objections to make with respect to

Page 2295

1 the proposed exhibits.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,

3 Mr. Stojanovic.

4 Mr. Jovan Simic.

5 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

6 we have no objections either.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I

8 understand, therefore, that there are no objections

9 with respect to the tendering of D25/1, so that the

10 exhibits have all been tendered.

11 I think that we ought to give a little

12 thought on the question that was raised as well. I

13 stand by the position that I indicated to you, but we

14 shall have some reflection on the subject.

15 We have 20 more minutes for hearing or

16 starting to hear another witness.

17 MR. KEEGAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 The Prosecution would call Witness B to the

19 stand.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Perhaps I

21 could take advantage of the opportunity to hear how

22 many witnesses you still have this week.

23 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour. We have two,

24 including Witness B, here, but it's our estimation that

25 it's very unlikely, using the normal work schedule,

Page 2296

1 that we will conclude both witnesses. In fact, it

2 would be my estimation at this time that we would only

3 conclude Witness B.

4 That was the issue that we would like to

5 raise afterwards with respect to whether the Judges

6 would desire to go extra time both days to try and

7 conclude both witnesses. But in my estimation, it

8 would probably mean an additional two hours each day in

9 order to conclude both.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Two hours

11 each day; that is to say, today and tomorrow, two extra

12 hours per day?

13 MR. KEEGAN: That would be my estimation,

14 Your Honour, based on just the way we have proceeded

15 with the witnesses thus far this week, and I see no

16 reason to indicate the timing would be any different

17 for the next two. They're both fairly significant

18 witnesses. If the Defence has another opinion on it,

19 I'd be happy to hear it.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What is the

21 viewpoint of the Defence with respect to doing our

22 utmost to set the witnesses free? And we're going to

23 interrupt ...

24 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

25 I still feel that there might be an unrealistic

Page 2297

1 assessment. We have witnesses here before us; we have

2 had days behind us and know what it looks like. And as

3 the witness is an important one, he has a lengthy

4 statement, lengthy testimony, and I think that we'll

5 have to bring him back. We discussed this, to have the

6 two witnesses back, and today and tomorrow to get

7 through with Witness B. That is, perhaps, more

8 realistic but it's up to you to decide. I don't know

9 whether this speeding up of matters will necessarily

10 lead to the proper results.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Is that

12 opinion shared by the other Defence counsel, or are

13 there differing opinions?

14 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, it is.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

16 Thank you.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, if I might. There

19 is one additional factor. I know you're concerned

20 about the issue of how long witnesses are here. This

21 witness, in fact, only arrived last night -- the second

22 witness, not Witness B, but the one who would follow

23 her. So he, in fact, has not been here that long,

24 Witness AL. There is also a concern, however, whether

25 or not he would be willing to come back a second time,

Page 2298

1 but that's something that we'll have to address

2 depending on your decision.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes,

4 Mr. Keegan. The problem is, as you can well

5 understand, a whole series of questions with respect to

6 all the people working here, not maybe in the courtroom

7 but who are the support of all of us here, and we too

8 have constraints. I myself, for example, have

9 something at 3.15, a meeting that I cannot put off, and

10 another one tomorrow of the same nature. So that is a

11 pity. My colleagues, the Judges, would like to

12 continue, but of course there are these constraints and

13 we must foresee all this in advance to be able to

14 function properly.

15 So we're going to go as far as possible, do

16 as much as possible, but quite certainly we cannot hear

17 just one -- we may be able to hear just one witness.

18 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] As regards

20 protective measures, Mr. Keegan, for this witness, what

21 are they, Witness B?

22 MR. KEEGAN: Pseudonym, Your Honour,

23 obviously, and facial distortion. And of course we

24 would want the initial session in private session as we

25 go through just the basic biographical data, and then

Page 2299

1 after that the normal session.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

3 We're now going to --

4 Mr. O'Sullivan, yes.

5 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Just to make sure that Your

6 Honours are correctly informed. At the break

7 Mr. Keegan spoke with us, and of course there is always

8 perhaps a language barrier between Mr. Keegan and some

9 of my colleagues who don't speak English, my

10 understanding was that the sensible solution for the

11 second witness may, in fact, be to tell that witness

12 that it's not likely that he would begin his

13 examination-in-chief before the end of tomorrow, and if

14 he did he would be two weeks before he came back to

15 complete his examination-in-chief. So that was our

16 understanding, under Mr. Keegan's suggestion, and I

17 think I'm speaking correctly that it may be the

18 sensible solution, for the benefit of the second

19 witness, to do our best to complete the witness who is

20 about to enter. I just wanted to state that for the

21 record.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, and

23 that's what we said, I think. Was there a difference

24 on your side as to what we said? We said that it was

25 better only to hear this witness and to inform the

Page 2300

1 other witness that we cannot hear his testimony at this

2 point. So we're going to introduce one witness and

3 we're going to do our best to hear that witness today

4 and tomorrow, because we only have ten more minutes

5 today.

6 [The witness entered court]

7 [Private session]

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18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

19 2.37 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday,

20 the 19th day of May, 2000, at 9.30 a.m.

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