Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2559

1 Tuesday, 6 June 2000

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be

6 seated.

7 Good morning to everybody, ladies and

8 gentlemen; good morning to the technical booth, to the

9 interpreters, to the legal assistants and court

10 reporters, Madam Hollis, Mr. Waidyaratne; good morning

11 to the Defence counsel. I see that they're all there.

12 We continue the proceedings today, the trial of Kvocka

13 et al.

14 We should like to say good morning to the

15 witness, Mr. Jasmir Okic. Have you had a good rest,

16 Mr. Okic?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, more or

18 less.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

20 But you're able to continue?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I am.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Let us

23 resume with questions put to you by the Prosecutor.

24 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 WITNESS: JASMIR OKIC [Resumed]

Page 2560

1 [Witness answered through interpreter]

2 Examined by Mr. Waidyaratne: [Cont'd]

3 Q. Yesterday before we adjourned, you were

4 giving evidence with regard to what happened on the

5 30th of May, 1992, and last you said that you were in a

6 bus with many others.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Where did the bus go, and what was the final

9 destination?

10 A. Go from where, you mean?

11 Q. After you started from the SUP building,

12 where did you proceed?

13 A. From the SUP building, through Prijedor,

14 towards the post office, turning right towards the

15 marketplace; and at the JNA street, he went right again

16 towards the shop there; and then he went left, turned

17 left, towards Cela and Tomasica, the road to Tomasica.

18 Q. Yes, Witness, you said that in your evidence

19 yesterday. What was the final destination of the bus?

20 Where did the bus stop finally?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not

22 receiving the interpretation.

23 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Your Honour, there is ...

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear

25 now. I can't hear very well. It's not loud enough.

Page 2561

1 Could you put the volume up a bit perhaps, please?

2 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Could the usher increase

3 the volume.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's all right

5 now. Thank you.

6 MR. WAIDYARATNE: May I ask that question

7 again, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please go

9 ahead.

10 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you.

11 Q. Witness, did you finally arrive at the

12 Omarska camp? Can you hear me now?

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The

14 interpretation booth, are you hearing it now? Is it

15 working? Can you hear now?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Is it all

18 right?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is.

20 Thank you.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Let's try

22 again. Please go ahead, Mr. Prosecutor.

23 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Q. Did you finally arrive at the Omarska camp?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2562

1 Q. What time of the day was it when you reached

2 the Omarska camp?

3 A. It was nighttime, between 10.00 and 12.00.

4 Q. After you reached the Omarska camp, were you

5 ordered to do anything?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do apologise,

7 but I can't hear the interpretation again. It's very

8 weak.

9 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Can you hear me? Witness,

10 can you hear me now.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear you

12 now but sometimes the volume drops.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Perhaps

14 it's due to the weather, Witness.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now, for

16 example, I can't hear properly again. The volume has

17 dropped again.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Is it

19 better now, Witness?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It comes and

21 goes. It comes and goes. The Defence counsel are

22 saying that they too cannot hear it all the time at the

23 same volume, that it comes and goes.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Could the

25 technical booth help us out with some suggestions to

Page 2563

1 overcome this problem?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I'll try

3 like this, if you like.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Can you

5 hear me properly now, Witness?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But you say

8 that there is a problem, that the volume comes and

9 goes; that when there's a pause it becomes weaker, the

10 sound becomes weaker; is that right?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the tone

12 is low, the volume is low of the interpreters.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Can you

14 hear the interpretation all right now from the booth?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Let's try

17 once again. If not, we're going to have a break to put

18 things right.

19 Mr. Prosecutor, have another go, please.

20 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. After you reached the Omarska camp, were you

22 ordered to get down from the bus?

23 A. Yes, we were ordered to get down from the

24 bus, to place our hands behind our necks and to stand

25 up against the administration building with our legs

Page 2564

1 spread and our arms spread, with three fingers against

2 the wall.

3 Q. Did you see any other persons other than the

4 people who came in the bus at that time?

5 A. The guards were standing around.

6 Q. How were they dressed? Were you able to see

7 them?

8 A. Some had the SMB JNA olive-green/grey

9 uniforms, and the others had the blue policemen's

10 uniforms.

11 Q. Were they armed?

12 A. Yes, they were.

13 Q. Did you recognise any of these people?

14 A. No, I did not.

15 Q. Then did they search you?

16 A. They searched us, and then one by one we went

17 into the entrance and they would register us and take

18 us to the room which was referred to as Mujo's room, in

19 the administration building.

20 Q. Now, Mr. Okic, you said that you all were

21 searched. Did you have anything on you? Did they take

22 anything from you?

23 A. I just had my ID card on me, and they didn't

24 take that away.

25 Q. You said that you were taken to a place

Page 2565

1 called Mujo's room. How long did you stay there?

2 A. Yes, that's right. I spent that night there

3 and I was transferred to the pista the next day.

4 Q. Could you explain to the Court what you mean

5 by the place called "the pista"? Could you describe

6 what this place is.

7 A. The pista was the area between the hangar and

8 the administration building.

9 Q. How long did you stay there in the pista?

10 A. I spent the month of June on the pista.

11 Q. Who were the others -- were there any others

12 in the pista with you?

13 A. Yes, there were. They were all civilians.

14 Q. Who were they? Did you recognise any

15 persons?

16 A. Well, yes, there were Muslims and there was a

17 small percentage of Croats as well.

18 Q. Did you recognise any persons?

19 A. Yes. There were my relatives and

20 neighbours. They were also there.

21 Q. While you were in the pista, did you see a

22 person by the name of Ismet Hodzic?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did you know him prior to the war?

25 A. I knew him. He lived in a settlement called

Page 2566

1 Cerici, next to my own settlement.

2 Q. Did you call him by another name, a nickname

3 or a petname?

4 A. His nickname was Ico.

5 Q. Where did you see him in the pista?

6 A. He was sitting on a bench next to the

7 administration building.

8 Q. Did you know his ethnicity?

9 A. Yes. He was a Muslim.

10 Q. What was the condition of him? Did you see

11 him while he was in the pista?

12 A. He was sitting on the bench next to the

13 administration building and he was in a very poor

14 condition. He was sitting there for three days. I

15 didn't know what was happening to him. I was sitting

16 on the pista with his brother, Saban. I asked his

17 brother, "What has been happening to Ico?" and he said

18 "Ico is a diabetic but he hasn't got his medicines

19 here," they'd left them at home, and three days later

20 he died on the pista next to the administration

21 building.

22 Q. Did you see him -- did you see the body being

23 removed?

24 A. Yes, I did.

25 Q. Where did you see the body taken?

Page 2567

1 A. His body was taken off towards the "white

2 house" and was left on the grass by the "white house."

3 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Your Honour, at this stage

4 I would give the exhibit which has been marked

5 previously as 3/90 to the witness. I would have the

6 assistance of the usher. 3/90 which has been marked

7 already.

8 May I correct my position, Your Honour. I

9 would tender a new exhibit which the witness can use

10 subsequently. So I would mark it 3/93. May I be

11 corrected, Your Honour. Thank you.

12 Could it be placed on the ELMO.

13 THE USHER: Yes, of course.

14 MR. WAIDYARATNE:

15 Q. Witness, please look at the photograph.

16 Could you kindly point out the place where the body of

17 Ismet Hodzic was placed. Just show -- point out the

18 place where you saw the body of Ismet Hodzic.

19 A. I can't hear the interpretation again. I'm

20 sorry.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The B/C/S

22 booth, is everything going well there? I think we must

23 have a break at this point to settle the problem.

24 Madam Registrar, what's going on?

25 THE REGISTRAR: The engineers are already

Page 2568

1 there and trying to fix the problem.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear

3 now.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Can you

5 hear us now, Witness?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

7 MR. WAIDYARATNE: May I proceed, Your

8 Honour?

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Let us try

10 again. It would be better if the witness can hear and

11 then we can continue. Otherwise, we're going to make a

12 break. But let's try, Mr. Waidyaratne.

13 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Go ahead.

15 MR. WAIDYARATNE:

16 Q. Please look at the photograph which is on the

17 ELMO. Could you point out the place where you saw the

18 body of Ismet Hodzic placed, where it was placed?

19 A. Yes. I saw it placed here.

20 MR. WAIDYARATNE: The witness points -- may

21 it be on the record that the witness points to --

22 Q. Can it be marked as "O1."

23 A. You want me to mark it, the place where his

24 body was, where it was laid down?

25 Q. Yes.

Page 2569

1 A. [Marks]

2 Q. Thank you. Witness, while you were detained

3 in the camp, were you taken for interrogation? Were

4 you interrogated at any stage?

5 A. Yes, I was interrogated in June.

6 Q. Could you explain -- could you describe where

7 you were taken for this interrogation?

8 A. I was taken for interrogation to the

9 administration building, on the floor above, and I was

10 interrogated in -- there's a landing in front of the

11 office, to the left-hand side of where I was taken and

12 interrogated.

13 Q. Who took you there?

14 A. I was taken there by a guard.

15 Q. Do you know his name?

16 A. I do. His name is Zoran Miodragovic.

17 Q. Did you know him prior to the war?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. How did you know him?

20 A. I knew him because he worked in the same

21 company that I worked for, Impro of Prijedor.

22 Q. How did it happen? Did he come and call you

23 from the place that you worked?

24 A. We were on the pista. And when they

25 questioned us one by one, they would take us off one by

Page 2570

1 one for interrogation from the pista.

2 Q. So this guard by the name of Zoran

3 Miodragovic came and called you; is that correct?

4 A. He didn't call us out by our names and

5 surnames. We would just go off one by one.

6 Q. What did the guard Zoran do? Did he take you

7 to any place?

8 A. He took me to the administration building,

9 upstairs, for interrogation.

10 Q. How was he dressed?

11 A. He was wearing a blue policeman's uniform,

12 and he had a rifle with him.

13 Q. Did you see him often in the camp?

14 A. Yes, I did, while he was working in his

15 shift.

16 Q. What do you mean by "shift"?

17 A. Well, there were three shifts and they

18 rotated. Every 12 hours there was a different shift of

19 guards in the camp.

20 Q. Did you refer to this shift by any specific

21 name, or was anybody in charge of this shift?

22 A. Each shift had its leader, the leader of the

23 shift.

24 Q. Did you know these leaders, all their names?

25 A. The leaders of the shifts were Ckalja, Krkan,

Page 2571

1 and Krle.

2 Q. Why did you call these people -- you referred

3 to them by names, Ckalja, Krkan, and Krle. Did you

4 know these people?

5 A. I didn't know them before, no.

6 Q. How did you get to know their names?

7 A. Well, I got to know them because they would

8 refer to each other. When talking to each other they

9 would call each other by their surnames or by their

10 nicknames.

11 Q. You said "they." What do you mean by

12 "they"? Who are these people?

13 A. The guards. The guards, amongst themselves.

14 Q. Did you know which shift Zoran Miodragovic

15 was attached to or worked in?

16 A. I think he was in Ckalja's shift.

17 Q. Now, you said that you were taken for the

18 interrogation to the first floor in the administration

19 building.

20 A. Yes, that's right.

21 Q. Who was there?

22 A. Up on the first floor there was the

23 interrogator.

24 Q. How was he dressed? Did you know him?

25 A. I don't know what he was wearing. But I did

Page 2572

1 not know him.

2 Q. Can you remember, or do you recall what you

3 were questioned about? Were you questioned?

4 A. I was asked where I was during the arrest,

5 where I worked, and why I hadn't signed the loyalty

6 oath.

7 Q. Could you explain a little more what this

8 loyalty oath was?

9 A. Well, that loyalty or pledge was to be signed

10 if you wanted to continue working in the SUP, as I in

11 fact did, in the reserve police force.

12 Q. So did you answer these questions? What did

13 you say when they asked you about the loyalty oath,

14 whether you signed that oath?

15 A. I said that as far as the loyalty oath was

16 concerned we were to have a meeting in the local

17 community of Prijedor 3, in the SUP of Prijedor, as a

18 joint police force, but in the meantime the Hambarine

19 village was shelled and the meeting never came about.

20 And so that's what happened.

21 Q. Did he question you about the weapons that

22 you had?

23 A. Yes, he asked me about weapons, whether I had

24 returned my weapons and my uniform.

25 Q. During this interrogation, other than the

Page 2573

1 person who questioned you, were there any other persons

2 present?

3 A. There was the guard present.

4 Q. After the interrogation, where were you

5 taken?

6 A. After the interrogation I was returned to the

7 pista.

8 Q. Now, Mr. Okic, during the time that you spent

9 in the pista, did you spend any time in the restaurant

10 during the nights?

11 A. I spent a number of nights in the restaurant

12 building.

13 Q. While you -- the time you spent in the

14 restaurant building in the night, did you witness an

15 incident of shooting?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did you know a person by the name of Nasic?

18 A. Yes, I knew Mehmedalija Nasic. He was a man

19 from a place called Cejreci who worked in the cellulose

20 factory of Prijedor.

21 Q. Did you see him in the restaurant?

22 A. Yes, I did.

23 Q. Did you see an incident involving him?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Could you describe what you saw.

Page 2574

1 A. We were ordered to sit down on the floor and

2 we did sit down, but Nasic got up and started talking.

3 He said, "People, why are we here? We ought to be

4 going home to our own houses and to live with our

5 neighbours." And he moved forward slightly, and when

6 he moved forward, the guard from the outside shot and

7 hit him and he fell down in the restaurant, on the

8 floor.

9 Q. Now, you said -- did you see the guard who

10 shot at that instance?

11 A. It was the guard called Pavlic.

12 Q. Did you see the guard at that instance, and

13 where was he?

14 A. I did.

15 Q. Where was he?

16 A. He was on the outside, towards the "white

17 house," on that side of the building.

18 Q. That is, outside the restaurant building.

19 A. Yes, outside.

20 Q. Did you know Pavlic before the war?

21 A. No, I did not.

22 Q. How did you get to know the name of Pavlic?

23 A. I learnt it because the guards would call

24 each other out by surnames or by nicknames.

25 Q. Could you describe Pavlic?

Page 2575

1 A. He was about between 170 and 180 centimetres

2 tall; he had dark hair and he had some grey hair here

3 in front.

4 Q. Did you see what happened to Nasic

5 thereafter, after the shooting?

6 A. Nasic fell, and then two people took him out

7 through the window and he was left on the grass, the

8 area I mentioned a moment ago.

9 Q. Did you see any other persons injured during

10 this shooting?

11 A. Three other persons were injured who were

12 behind Nasic's back, under the table.

13 Q. Did you know the names of these people?

14 A. Two brothers, Delkic, and I don't know the

15 name of the third person.

16 Q. Did you know what happened to them after the

17 shooting?

18 A. They were there and then I would see them

19 again in the camp, but I had no contact with them.

20 Q. After the time that you spent on the pista,

21 were you transferred to any other place?

22 A. Yes. After the pista I was transferred to

23 Room 26, on the upstairs floor in the hangar. This was

24 in the month of July.

25 Q. How were you transferred there? How did you

Page 2576

1 get to the hangar building?

2 A. Because all of us from the pista would go to

3 sleep in the restaurant. Some people went to number

4 26, some to number 13. Because I had to go upstairs

5 every night and come out in the morning, and they would

6 beat us on the way there and on the way back, so I

7 moved to Room 26.

8 Q. You again said "they." Whom are these people

9 that you referred to as "they"?

10 A. The guards. The guards.

11 Q. What was the condition in the room that you

12 called Room 26?

13 A. The conditions were intolerable. This was a

14 room roughly 25 by 25 metres, and there were 300 to 400

15 men inside. The roof was made of aluminum. The

16 temperature was 30 outside so inside it was even

17 warmer. There were only two small windows on the sides

18 which were half open.

19 So if we had to go to the toilet, a guard

20 would come and ask, "Who wants to go to the toilet?"

21 and "Form groups of five." We would form a group of

22 five. The first group would go and come back all

23 bloody; we saw that they had been beaten, and then we

24 would just lie down on the floor and not go to the

25 toilet at all. Then the guard would just shut the door

Page 2577

1 and say, "Don't anyone ask to go to the toilet again."

2 So we had to relieve ourselves in the room we slept

3 in. Some 50 per cent of us in that room relieved

4 themselves there. Some people had bags, some boots,

5 and these bags stood there all night and it was only in

6 the morning that they could be cleaned away.

7 Then there were lice. Everyone had lice.

8 Whenever there were hairs on our body, they were full

9 of lice.

10 Q. Were you given an opportunity to wash

11 yourself, or were you provided with that kind of

12 hygienic facility?

13 A. No. Only once did I have an opportunity to

14 wash myself in Omarska. With a hydrant hose we were

15 washed once.

16 Q. Could you describe, explain, how that

17 happened?

18 A. The bathing, you mean?

19 Q. Yes.

20 A. One day they came and said that we should go

21 downstairs, that we would be washed, and it was on the

22 grass there, outside the hangar. They told us to take

23 our clothes off. They took a fire hydrant, with a hose

24 and very high pressure, and they really did it for fun,

25 not to wash us. They just hosed us all over with the

Page 2578

1 water.

2 Q. Again you said "they." Who are you --

3 A. The guards. The guards. I mean the guards.

4 Q. During the detention that you -- during your

5 detention in Room 26, were you provided with water and

6 food?

7 A. You would get one jerrycan of water for all

8 of us, and we were all terribly thirsty and hardly

9 anyone had enough to drink, because we would snatch the

10 water away from each other. We went to eat once a day,

11 and this was in great haste. And sometimes we would

12 ask others whether there were guards beating and if

13 they were beating then we wouldn't go and eat at all.

14 Q. Could you describe what you got to eat while

15 you were detained?

16 A. Well, a piece of bread and a cooked dish

17 which was really almost entirely water.

18 Q. Mr. Okic, while you were detained in Room 26,

19 did you see a person by the name of Mehmed Alisic

20 inside the room?

21 A. Mehmed Alisic, yes.

22 Q. Did you know him?

23 A. He was a private carrier from Prijedor,

24 living in Tukovi. He had his own private company for

25 transportation.

Page 2579

1 Q. Could you see any incident involving him

2 taking place while you were in that room?

3 A. Yes. This was in July, in Room 26. Mehmed

4 was in the bedroom and he was walking around in the

5 room, but before that the guard said, "Don't let me see

6 anyone standing or walking around." And Mehmed was

7 walking and the guard opened the door and the guard

8 shot, opened fire, and Mehmed fell.

9 Q. Did you see Mehmed being taken out?

10 A. Yes. Two of us were told to carry him out,

11 and he was carried out, and then two or three more

12 shots were heard, and I don't know anything more. I

13 never saw him again.

14 Q. You heard the shots being fired for the

15 second time after he was taken out?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, did you know the person that -- you said

18 that there was a guard who shot. Did you know this

19 guard by name?

20 A. His name was Pirvan.

21 Q. Could you describe how he looked.

22 A. He was about 180 centimetres tall. He had

23 light coloured hair and it was balding; he had hair

24 only at the back of his head. And he was wearing an

25 olive-grey uniform.

Page 2580

1 Q. Did you know -- did you see this guard named

2 Pirvan often in the camp?

3 A. I would see him when his shift was on duty.

4 Q. Do you recall which shift that was?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Further, during your detention in that room,

7 number 26 -- that you referred to as number 26, did you

8 see a person by the name of Gordan Kardum?

9 A. Yes, Gordan Kardum was brought to our room.

10 I don't know from where.

11 Q. Did you refer to him by another name, a short

12 name?

13 A. Gogi.

14 Q. Did you know him before the war?

15 A. I knew him. He worked at the petrol station

16 in Prijedor held by Energopetrol. I knew him as a

17 worker of Energopetrol.

18 Q. When you saw him in that room, in room number

19 26, did you notice anything? How was he? What was his

20 condition?

21 A. He was wearing a sweatsuit, and when he came

22 back his trousers were rolled up and his feet were

23 black. Three days later he couldn't even go for

24 lunch. He was lying down. Later on he got a bit

25 better and he went for lunch, and one day when we went

Page 2581

1 to eat, he was lying there dead.

2 Q. You said that he couldn't walk. Did you know

3 why he couldn't walk?

4 A. He couldn't walk from his injuries. He had

5 been beaten and he was all broken up.

6 Q. During your detention, were you beaten

7 separately or individually?

8 A. I would regularly be beaten on the way to eat

9 and coming back. That was a regular occurrence. You

10 would get one, two, or three blows. But only once when

11 I was really badly beaten.

12 Q. When was that? Can you describe that to the

13 Court?

14 A. That was in the second half of July or

15 mid-July, I think. On the fiftieth [sic] Day.

16 Q. What happened?

17 A. Coming back from lunch to Room 26, we were

18 running through the corridor and a guard was standing

19 at the door to an office. As I ran past, he called

20 out, "You, big-headed one." I turned around and the

21 neighbour in front of me turned around too, and he

22 pointed at me and said, "You come here." He told me to

23 go into the office. He moved away from the door. As I

24 went in, he hit me with a cable that he had in his hand

25 and he hit me on the back.

Page 2582

1 Then he faced me and told me to give him 100

2 German marks. I said, "I have no money on me. I

3 didn't bring it and I don't have any." Then he said

4 that I should cross over to the other room across the

5 corridor. I went there and he came and said to me,

6 "I'm coming back in five or ten minutes. Get 100

7 marks for me." I said, "You can kill me but I don't

8 have the money." He came back and I said, "I have no

9 money."

10 There were two benches linked together next

11 to the wall. He told me to lie down on those two

12 benches. I did and I held onto the benches with my

13 hands, and he hit me with this cable on the back.

14 After some time, when he stopped beating me,

15 he ordered me, this guard ordered me to go to the

16 bedroom and to prepare there 100 German marks. I went

17 there. I knew that no one had any money. I said that

18 the guard was asking for these 100 marks. No one had

19 any money and no one gave me any.

20 When the guard came to fetch me, I went out

21 into the corridor and said that I didn't have the

22 money, that no one had it to give to me. Then again he

23 said, "You have five to ten minutes to collect watches,

24 chains, and rings, and I'll come back."

25 I went back to the bedroom again and I told

Page 2583

1 the others what he had told me, the people who were

2 lying in Room 26. I collected a few watches, and when

3 he came, I went to the corridor and showed them to

4 him. He chose one watch and took it, and then he told

5 me I was free, that I could go back to the bedroom, the

6 dormitory.

7 Q. This guard, did you know him? Do you know

8 his name?

9 A. No, I didn't know him.

10 Q. Did you see him often in the camp?

11 A. Yes. In his shift he would always sit to the

12 left of the "white house." There was a chair there and

13 he would sit there.

14 Q. Do you know to which shift he belonged?

15 A. I don't.

16 Q. When did you leave the camp?

17 A. Omarska?

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. I left Omarska on a Thursday. The 6th of

20 August, it was.

21 Q. Where were you before you were transferred

22 from Omarska? In which part of the camp were you?

23 A. The last few days, I was in Mujo's room.

24 Q. Did anybody come and call you?

25 A. First a list of names was read out by the

Page 2584

1 driver of the bus who drove Ckalja's shift. I don't

2 know his name. He read out the list and he said, "The

3 people whose names I read out should go to the pista

4 and the others remain in the dormitory." My name was

5 called out; I went to the pista.

6 When we were all there on the pista, Zeljko

7 Meakic came and read out a list and he said, "If I

8 don't call out someone, he should tell me." Two men

9 were not called out and he asked, "Did I not call out

10 anyone?" and two men said that he hadn't been called

11 out and he separated the two from our group.

12 Q. Now, you referred to a person by the name of

13 Zeljko Meakic. Who was he?

14 A. I heard in the camp that he was the camp

15 commander.

16 Q. How was he dressed?

17 A. I'm not quite sure what kind of uniform he

18 wore.

19 Q. Did you see him often in the camp?

20 A. Yes. If I went for lunch.

21 Q. How were you transported -- taken to

22 Trnopolje?

23 A. We were taken there by bus.

24 Q. How long did you spend in Trnopolje?

25 A. I spent the period from the 6th of August

Page 2585

1 until the 14th of August.

2 Q. When you left Trnopolje -- how were you

3 released from Trnopolje?

4 A. A condition for my release from Trnopolje was

5 for me to bring a certificate that I was leaving all my

6 property to Republika Srpska, and on the basis of that

7 certificate I was released. My wife got the

8 certificate in Prijedor and brought it over.

9 Q. After you left Trnopolje on the 14th of

10 August, 1992, where did you go to?

11 A. I went home.

12 Q. That was to Raskovac?

13 A. Raskovac, yes.

14 Q. When did you leave -- did you leave Bosnia?

15 A. I left Bosnia on the 12th of January, 1993.

16 Q. During the time that you were released from

17 Trnopolje and the time that you left Bosnia, you were

18 at home.

19 A. I was at home all the time.

20 Q. Were you able to go out?

21 A. I went out to the yard but no where else, no

22 where further than that.

23 Q. Why?

24 A. I was afraid because the Serbs were all in

25 uniform, they were all armed, and your life was at risk

Page 2586

1 all the time.

2 Q. Now, could you describe to the Court whether

3 there were any long-term effects that you face due to

4 the detention in the camp, due to the abuse that you

5 underwent during your detention in the Omarska camp?

6 A. Well, in May 1992, I weighed 105 kilos. When

7 I reached Trnopolje, there was a weighing machine, and

8 I weighed 78 kilos. My mental condition, when I left

9 Bosnia to a third country, I would wake up at night

10 screaming, saying, "They have come to pick me up

11 again." And to this day I have problems. When I go to

12 sleep, I keep seeing this film all over again in my

13 mind.

14 Q. What is the property that you had back home

15 in Bosnia that you had to leave?

16 A. I had to leave everything. I had 7.000

17 square metres of land, a house built in 1991, a car,

18 and everything else.

19 Q. Now, Witness --

20 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Your Honour, I would tender

21 a photograph to the witness and ask a few questions

22 with regard to a exhibit which I have marked, 3/91.

23 Q. Please look at the photograph. Now, you

24 referred to a person -- could you identify -- do you

25 know those people in that photograph?

Page 2587

1 A. I know both of them.

2 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Would you place it on the

3 ELMO.

4 Q. Could you identify the people in the

5 photograph?

6 A. To the left, this is Mirsad Alisic, son of

7 Latif, and this is Gogi on the right.

8 Q. The person whom you referred to as Gogi is

9 the person whom you earlier testified as Gordan

10 Kardum.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Bear with me, Your Honour.

14 Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Q. In your testimony, with regard to the time

16 that you spent in Room 26 and when I questioned you

17 about the water, how it was supplied, you said that you

18 were provided a jerrycan. Could you describe what was

19 the size of this can which was provided to you and how

20 it was provided?

21 A. Well, the can contained between 10 and 15

22 litres of water.

23 Q. You testified that there were 300 to 400

24 prisoners in that room.

25 A. Yes.

Page 2588

1 Q. May I also ask you a question with regard to

2 Gordan Kardum. You said that you saw his body.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Where did you first see it?

5 A. In Room 26, in the middle of the room. He

6 was lying there.

7 Q. And thereafter where did you see the body?

8 A. He was carried out and I didn't see him

9 again. I don't know where he was taken.

10 Q. Also you said that during your interrogation

11 you were questioned about the weapons.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What did they ask you?

14 A. He asked me whether I had returned my

15 weapons. I said -- I told him what I had as weapons,

16 who I spoke to in SUP, that they came to the local

17 community and that I had surrendered my weapons, my

18 ammunition and uniform.

19 Q. Did you tell him as to whom you returned it?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You also said that you were questioned about

22 the loyalty oath.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Could you explain what he asked you?

25 A. As I told him that I had been a member of the

Page 2589

1 reserve police force and that I had weapons which I had

2 surrendered, and then he asked me why I hadn't signed

3 this loyalty.

4 Q. To whom? Loyalty to whom?

5 A. To the Serb police, the Serb station in

6 Prijedor, the Prijedor Police Station.

7 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Your Honour, may I have

8 your permission to have the witness have Exhibit 77 --

9 3/77D, it be given to him.

10 Q. Witness, please see that diagram. Are you

11 familiar with that? Do you understand what it is?

12 A. This is the upper floor of the hangar.

13 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Could you place it on the

14 ELMO, please.

15 Q. Is this the place where you were detained

16 while in Omarska?

17 A. In July, you mean?

18 Q. In July.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Could you show where Room 26 is?

21 A. This one, B1. B1.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MR. WAIDYARATNE: I conclude my direct

24 examination, Your Honour. Thank you.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

Page 2590

1 very much, Mr. Waidyaratne.

2 Witness, you are now going to answer

3 questions which the Defence attorneys are going to ask

4 you according to the order which Mr. Krstan Simic is

5 going to announce.

6 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

7 on the basis of our consultations, I will have a few

8 brief questions for this witness and the rest of the

9 Defence team have no questions for this witness.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

11 Thank you very much, Mr. Krstan Simic. You have the

12 floor. Your witness.

13 Cross-examined by Mr. K. Simic:

14 Q. Good morning, Mr. Okic.

15 A. Good morning.

16 Q. In your testimony you said you were a member

17 of the reserve police force or militia, whichever.

18 A. Yes, that's right.

19 Q. For us to get a clear insight into your

20 status, was it your military duty or assignment, so to

21 speak?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Who deployed you into the police or militia?

24 A. In 1980 -- in the 1980s, when Tito died, I

25 was mobilised and became part of the reserve police

Page 2591

1 force.

2 Q. In the case of any emergency situations,

3 extraordinary situations, you would also --

4 A. We joined Raskovac and Prijedor 3 at Berek.

5 Q. Yes, but you were always a member of the

6 police force, were you not?

7 A. Yes, the reserve police force.

8 Q. Very well. And you had uniforms, weapons.

9 A. Yes, that's right. The same day, I was

10 issued this the same day in 1980, when Tito died.

11 Q. So your rifle and ammunition, did you take

12 that home?

13 A. Yes, I took it home.

14 Q. Was it at your house the whole time?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. When a selection was carried out for members

17 of the reserve police force on the basis of this

18 military assignment or duty, did these individuals have

19 to have a high moral character and criteria, along

20 those lines?

21 A. Well, yes, I assume so.

22 Q. So were the members of the reserve police

23 force, was this an important post in view of the

24 current system, and a post of respect?

25 A. Yes, it was.

Page 2592

1 Q. You always used the word "guard" during your

2 testimony. In view of the fact that you were a member

3 of the reserve police force, did the individuals who

4 appeared within the guard system, were they members of

5 the reserve police force, in fact?

6 A. You mean in Omarska? I don't know who --

7 which composition they belonged to because some were

8 wearing police uniforms and some were wearing the SMB

9 olive-green/grey uniforms. So I don't know what

10 formations they actually belonged to.

11 Q. When you had these contacts with the members

12 of the security detail, did you happen to notice that

13 individuals wearing the SMB uniforms, the uniforms of

14 the former JNA, had police insignia which they just put

15 on their uniforms, identifying them as being members of

16 the police force? Did you happen to notice that?

17 A. [No audible response]

18 Q. As a reserve policeman, you said that you saw

19 to security matters. You mentioned the bridge?

20 A. Yes, the bridge over the River Sana next to

21 the Prijedor Hotel.

22 Q. Very well. So the police provides security,

23 does it not?

24 A. Yes, it does.

25 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

Page 2593

1 I should now like to have the witness shown document --

2 a document marked D17/1.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] In the

4 meantime, Mr. Simic, I would like to say that there was

5 an inaudible response to a question that you asked the

6 witness. Perhaps you should make greater pauses

7 between questions and answers.

8 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

9 Honour. Thank you.

10 Q. Mr. Okic, you have a document before you.

11 Would you read the title, the heading, and who adopted

12 this -- compiled this document?

13 A. You mean on the left-hand side, in the

14 left-hand corner?

15 Q. Yes, that's right.

16 A. You want me to read it out? "The Serbian

17 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Ministry of the

18 Interior, the Centre of the Security Services in Banja

19 Luka, the Public Security Station of Prijedor, the 31st

20 of January, 1992."

21 Q. The Public Security Station of Prijedor, was

22 that the police station in the Prijedor municipality?

23 A. Yes.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic,

25 could we have the document placed on the ELMO, please,

Page 2594

1 so that we can all follow. Thank you.

2 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

3 you would probably need the English version. Mr. Okic

4 has just received the B/C/S version. So the document

5 you need is D17/1A.

6 Q. I should now like to ask you to read point 6

7 carefully. It's at the bottom of the page.

8 A. You want me to read it out? "The security

9 services at the collection centre shall be provided by

10 the Omarska Police Station with an adequate number of

11 policemen who shall be present at the collection centre

12 at all times and shall organise guard duty seconding to

13 the on duty-on call-off duty principle."

14 Q. Mr. Okic, as a member of the reserve police

15 force with a lot of experience, does this clearly

16 define the assignment of the members of the Omarska

17 police station?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. What was their task?

20 A. First of all, I was in a concentration camp

21 and here it says "Collection Centre." Those are two

22 different notions, two different concepts.

23 Q. Mr. Okic, I'm asking you what the task of the

24 Omarska Police Station was. You can consider what you

25 like; the Court will rule. What was the task?

Page 2595

1 A. To organise the work of the security service

2 and the guard duty, according to the duty-on call-off

3 duty principle.

4 Q. Thank you. A moment ago you spoke about an

5 individual who died for health reasons while at

6 Omarska.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you see in the interval that any member

9 of the medical service arrived, like a doctor or a

10 nurse?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Did you happen to hear or see that the

13 gentleman asked for help, medical assistance, of

14 anybody because of his problems?

15 A. The answer was no.

16 Q. When you spoke about the time that you spent

17 on the pista, you said you spent some 20 days.

18 A. In June?

19 Q. Yes, in June. Did you spend a whole night on

20 the pista, or would you be transferred at night, every

21 night?

22 A. I spent one or two nights on the pista, and

23 the rest of the time I would either go to the hangar or

24 Room 26 or somewhere else.

25 Q. You mentioned a moment ago the unfortunate

Page 2596

1 incident where Mr. Mehmedalija Nasic was killed. Could

2 you say in relation to the location, the spot, that is

3 to say, where the restaurant was, where were you

4 standing? Where were you actually standing at the

5 time? Try and describe that to us, please.

6 A. He was about three to four metres away from

7 me, in front of me, towards the food distribution

8 line. So he was between me and the food distribution

9 line, looking down the restaurant. So I was looking at

10 him diagonally from the position where the shot came.

11 Q. That is to say, how could you see the place

12 from which the shot came?

13 A. That is difficult to explain. If I could

14 have a photograph, perhaps it would be easier.

15 Q. 3/77A. Now you have the diagram of the

16 restaurant in front of you. Could you indicate to us

17 where you were standing?

18 A. I was sitting.

19 Q. Yes. Where were you?

20 A. Roughly here.

21 Q. And Mr. Nasic, where was he?

22 A. There.

23 Q. And Mr. Pavlic?

24 A. He was on the outside here.

25 Q. Now I'm going to ask you like a policeman.

Page 2597

1 Was the movement made by Mr. Nasic unexpected? You

2 said that he suddenly moved forward after saying what

3 he said.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Well, was it unexpected, an unexpected

6 movement?

7 A. He just started to move forward. He was

8 there and then he took two or three steps forward.

9 Q. In which direction?

10 A. He moved towards this line here. As this man

11 was there, he moved diagonally this way.

12 Q. Did you hear any warnings issued beforehand?

13 A. No.

14 Q. So there was just his movement, precipitous

15 movement, and then the shot; is that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I have no

19 further questions.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

21 very much, Mr. Simic.

22 Mr. Waidyaratne, any additional questions?

23 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Yes. Thank you, Your

24 Honour.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please go

Page 2598

1 ahead.

2 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you.

3 Re-examined by Mr. Waidyaratne:

4 Q. Mr. Okic, you were questioned by Mr. Simic

5 with regard to the incident with regard to Nasic.

6 Mr. Nasic was inside the restaurant, was he?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And this guard, where was he?

9 A. He was outside, the other side of the glass

10 or wall.

11 Q. How many detainees were inside the restaurant

12 roughly?

13 A. Well, I couldn't tell you exactly, but the

14 restaurant was full.

15 Q. And all these other people were seated.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Was Mr. Nasic armed or did he have any

18 weapons with him at that time?

19 A. No, he did not.

20 Q. How old was Mr. Nasic? Did you know him?

21 A. He was between 55 -- about 55, I'd say.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MR. WAIDYARATNE: That's all, Your Honour.

24 Thank you.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

Page 2599

1 very much, Mr. Waidyaratne.

2 Madam Judge Wald.

3 JUDGE WALD: Thank you.

4 Questioned by the Court:

5 JUDGE WALD: You mentioned that among the

6 detainees, the shifts were often identified by the name

7 of the shift commander or his nickname, such as you

8 mentioned Krkan, Ckalja, and Krle. Would you have

9 recognised any of those shift commanders by sight while

10 you were at Omarska? I mean, would you have known who

11 they were if they walked by?

12 A. I would. I think I would.

13 JUDGE WALD: Okay. My next question, then,

14 is: In any of the incidents that you mentioned, which

15 included some beatings and two shootings, I think, and

16 an extorsion, attempt to get money, were any of those

17 shift commanders either present or within visible range

18 of the occurrence, the shooting, the beating? Did you

19 ever see any of them around the premises when any of

20 those incidents occurred?

21 A. I did not see them, no.

22 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

24 very much, Judge Wald.

25 Mr. Okic, I have two questions myself. The

Page 2600

1 guard that we spoke about earlier on who was on the

2 exterior of the restaurant building, was he alone or

3 was he accompanied?

4 A. I saw him alone. I didn't see anybody else

5 with him at the time.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] My other

7 question. You spoke about Room 26 and you identified

8 Room 26 on a diagram as being "B1." Why do you call

9 the room "Room 26"?

10 A. Well, I don't know. That's how we all called

11 it; we all called it Room 26. When I got there,

12 everybody called it Room 26. I don't know why,

13 actually.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 Thank you very much. You have concluded your

16 testimony.

17 Mr. Waidyaratne, we have an exhibit, 3/73; is

18 that right?

19 MR. WAIDYARATNE: May I tender Exhibit 3/93

20 to be admitted into evidence.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

22 And the Defence? Mr. Krstan Simic.

23 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

24 the Defence has no objection, and I speak on behalf of

25 all the Defence teams.

Page 2601

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

2 very much. The exhibit is admitted into evidence

3 accordingly.

4 Mr. Okic, thank you very much for coming

5 here. Before you leave, I just want to ask you if

6 there is anything which you would like to say which has

7 not yet been asked of you.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All I can say

9 is that I don't want anybody to have to go through what

10 we went through in Omarska, us prisoners, and those in

11 charge of Omarska should be adequately punished so that

12 it be a lesson to others and not to have the same thing

13 repeated again.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. I

15 hope that everybody can hear your wishes. Thank you

16 very much for coming here, and we wish you bon voyage

17 back to your place of residence.

18 The usher will now accompany you out of the

19 courtroom. Thank you very much.

20 [The witness withdrew]

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think

22 that it is -- as it is almost 11.00, this would be a

23 good time for a break before continuing with the next

24 witness. As it is six minutes to eleven, let us have a

25 half-hour break now, and we shall resume afterwards.

Page 2602

1 Madam Hollis, I don't know whether you wish

2 to say anything before we break.

3 MS. HOLLIS: No, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No. The

5 hearing is adjourned.

6 --- Recess taken at 10.54 a.m.

7 --- On resuming at 11.30 p.m.

8 [Closed session]

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

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15 (redacted)

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17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

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13 pages 2603-2664 redacted closed session

14

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17

18 We are now going to have the break.

19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

20 at 2.30 p.m., to be reconvened on

21 Wednesday, the 7th day of June, 2000,

22 at 9.30 a.m.

23

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page 2665