Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3111

1 Wednesday, 14 June 2000

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good

6 morning. You may be seated.

7 Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, the

8 technical booth, the interpreters.

9 THE INTERPRETER: Good morning, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good

11 morning, court reporters, the legal assistants, Ms.

12 Niemann and Ms. Hollis; good morning, Defence counsel.

13 I see we are complete. Good morning to the accused.

14 We are going to resume today, with the normal

15 composition of the Chamber, to continue our case.

16 Mr. Niemann, I think we have a witness. I

17 think it's your turn, is it not?

18 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, Your Honour. Yes.

19 We call Zuhra Hrnic as the witness this morning, Your

20 Honour.

21 [The witness entered court]

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good

23 morning, Ms. Hrnic. Can you hear me well?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

25 I hear you well.

Page 3112

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You're

2 going to read the solemn declaration which the usher is

3 going to give you, please.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly

5 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

6 and nothing but the truth.


8 [Witness answered through interpreter]

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be

10 seated. Are you comfortable, madam?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it's

12 fine.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Have you

14 had a good rest?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So-so. So-so.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] In any

17 event, I'm sure you will have the strength to answer

18 questions which Mr. Niemann is going to put to you.

19 Mr. Niemann, your witness.

20 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Examined by Mr. Niemann:

22 Q. Ms. Hrnic, were you born in the town of

23 Prijedor?

24 A. I was born on the 1st of March, 1935, in the

25 centre of town.

Page 3113

1 Q. I think that you worked there as a seamstress

2 until 1990 when you retired; is that right?

3 A. That is right.

4 Q. What is your religion?

5 A. My religion is Muslim.

6 Q. Now, on the 20th of June, 1992, I understand

7 you were having coffee in the morning with your

8 neighbour when you were arrested; is that correct?

9 A. Correct. Correct.

10 Q. The people that arrested you, who were they?

11 A. I don't know them. Two young men in Serb

12 uniforms.

13 Q. I think firstly they took you to Keraterm and

14 you were there for a little while, and then they took

15 you to the SUP in Prijedor; is that right?

16 A. That is right.

17 Q. I think several hours later you were then

18 taken with a group of seven other people to the Omarska

19 camp.

20 A. That's right.

21 Q. Ms. Hrnic, what happened when you arrived at

22 the Omarska camp? Can you tell the Court that?

23 A. What happened was that we were lined up next

24 to the wall. We had to raise our arms and spread our

25 legs for them to search us.

Page 3114

1 Q. Who was it that searched you?

2 A. The guards, most probably. They were

3 guards.

4 Q. These were the guards at the Omarska camp,

5 were they?

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. Now, after you'd been searched, what happened

8 then?

9 A. Then me and a lady who was brought with me

10 were taken to the restaurant.

11 Q. When you say "the restaurant," what part of

12 the camp is that? Can you give us some idea of the

13 location of that?

14 A. The restaurant of the iron ore mine, where

15 the camp was established.

16 Q. This is on the ground floor, is it?

17 A. The ground floor.

18 Q. Now, how long did you stay in the restaurant

19 on that day?

20 A. Until the evening, between 7.00 and half past

21 seven.

22 Q. At about half past seven, what happened then?

23 A. At that time we went upstairs to these two

24 sleeping rooms where the women slept.

25 Q. Were you able to just go to the sleeping

Page 3115

1 rooms or was permission needed to be had for you to go

2 to a particular room; do you remember?

3 A. Not permission, but it was -- our sort of

4 room leader asked that the two of us be accommodated in

5 that room.

6 Q. Do you remember the name of your room leader?

7 A. Her name was Jadranka Cigelj.

8 Q. Do you know who she asked so that you could

9 go to that room?

10 A. Apparently someone called Krkan.

11 Q. She told you that, did she?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. I don't think you were present when she

14 actually asked for you to stay in that room.

15 A. I wasn't.

16 Q. Now, for the time that you were in the

17 Omarska camp, apart from those two rooms that you have

18 described, the kitchen or, I should say, the restaurant

19 and the upstairs sleeping room, did you stay in any

20 other part of the Omarska camp for the time that you

21 were there?

22 A. No.

23 Q. From the place where you stayed in the

24 Omarska camp, namely the restaurant and upstairs, could

25 you have a view out of the restaurant to see what was

Page 3116

1 happening around the camp at the time?

2 A. Yes, I did.

3 Q. And how was it that you could see? What

4 enabled you to be able to see out?

5 A. When I wasn't washing up the dishes, we had

6 to sit at a table next to very large windows.

7 Q. And those windows look out over the camp, did

8 they?

9 A. Yes, they looked out at the hangar and the

10 pista.

11 Q. And could you see people on the pista at the

12 time when you were there?

13 A. Certainly.

14 Q. And who were these people that you could see?

15 A. They were the inmates of the camp, men.

16 Q. And I know that you could see them from

17 day-to-day, but what were they doing there?

18 A. More often than not, they were lying face

19 down on their stomach and during that period of 8 to 10

20 hours, they would sometimes be sitting.

21 Q. And were they forced to lie down or were they

22 just doing this apparently because they wanted to?

23 A. They were probably forced to do it.

24 Q. And were there guards overlooking these men

25 that were on the pista?

Page 3117

1 A. Of course.

2 Q. And what about in the building that you were

3 located in where the restaurant was, did you see

4 inmates in that building as well?

5 A. From the restaurant?

6 Q. Yes, or from the restaurant or from any of

7 the part of the building that you were in. Could you

8 see inmates inside your building?

9 A. Inmates inside the building we couldn't see

10 except when they came for meals and, of course, not

11 counting those we could see on the pista.

12 Q. Now, from time to time, did you observe

13 people being taken in or brought into this building

14 that you were in?

15 A. They would come to eat into the building

16 where I was, where I stayed from 7.00 in the morning

17 until 7.00 in the evening.

18 Q. Now, what duties were you forced to -- I'll

19 withdraw that, Your Honour.

20 What duties did you perform when you were

21 there in the kitchen?

22 A. We split up in two groups so one day I would

23 do the washing up, and the next day I would just sit.

24 Q. And did you ever have occasion to serve food

25 to the prisoners or was that handled by somebody else?

Page 3118

1 A. I did not. Not me.

2 Q. Did you have an opportunity to observe the

3 food that was being served to the prisoners?

4 A. Of course, because I ate the same food too.

5 Q. And what sort of food was it, can you

6 describe it?

7 A. I can. It was worthless. We would get a

8 quarter of a loaf of bread daily, but most frequently

9 it would be only an eighth of a loaf of moldy bread.

10 Can I go on?

11 Q. Yes, please do.

12 A. Apart from bread, one day we would get beans

13 which was more often than not sour. The next day would

14 be soup, cabbage soup with only one leaf inside. The

15 third day, a bit of rice. The food was really quite

16 terrible.

17 Q. And how many meals a day did you have?

18 A. Only one meal in 24 hours.

19 Q. And the one meal that you had in 24 hours, at

20 what time of the day did they normally have that?

21 A. The meal lasted from 9.00 until 4.00 or

22 5.00. It also depended when the food arrived.

23 Sometimes it came earlier, sometimes later, but as soon

24 as it arrived, the distribution would start.

25 Q. And when the prisoners come to have their

Page 3119

1 meal, were they restricted in terms of time in which to

2 eat?

3 A. Yes, three minutes. They had three minutes

4 to come from the place where they were to eat and to go

5 back to their place.

6 Q. Well, what happened if the men didn't finish

7 their meal in three minutes?

8 A. They had to do it.

9 Q. Okay. Now, did you have any relatives in the

10 camp at the time --

11 JUDGE RIAD: Excuse me, I didn't understand

12 why they had to do it.

13 MR. NIEMANN: I'll pursue it.

14 Q. Could you tell His Honour why they had to do

15 it, why they had to eat in three minutes? Could you

16 answer that?

17 A. They were forced to finish their meal,

18 otherwise they would get beaten.

19 Q. Who would beat them?

20 A. The guards. The guards who were there in the

21 kitchen.

22 Q. And in terms of the men moving through to get

23 their meal, did all that have to take place in the

24 three minutes, the collection of food and eating it as

25 well?

Page 3120

1 A. Everything, everything. To take their

2 plates, to eat it, and to go back.

3 Q. Did you have any relatives at all in the

4 camp?

5 A. Yes, I did. I had two nephews, the sons of

6 my two brothers.

7 Q. And can you tell their honours approximately

8 how old these two nephews were of yours at that time?

9 A. My younger brother's son was born in 1964 and

10 the older one, believe me, I don't know exactly, but he

11 was about 40.

12 Q. That's all I wanted you to tell us, a rough

13 idea of their age. Now, did you have a chance to see

14 them during the time that you were in Omarska?

15 A. Yes, I did. When they would come to eat.

16 Q. And what could you see of them, could you

17 describe their appearance when they came into the

18 restaurant?

19 A. I can't describe only my two nephews, all the

20 inmates looked awful. They were unrecognisable. They

21 had lost weight. They were skinny. They had -- didn't

22 have a haircut. They hadn't shaved. They were dirty.

23 What else could I say? And perhaps sometimes they were

24 wet with urine, and I apologise for having to say it,

25 but they were dirty as a result of dysentery.

Page 3121

1 Q. Okay. Did you ever have occasion to speak to

2 them when they came in or was that prevented?

3 A. No, on a number of occasions, I would save my

4 eighth of a loaf and give it to one nephew the next

5 day, and then the next day I would save again my piece

6 of bread and give it to the other nephew.

7 Q. Do you remember a part of the building that

8 you were in called the "glass house"?

9 A. Very well.

10 Q. Can you tell us approximately where that was

11 in relation to the kitchen, or the restaurant, I should

12 say?

13 A. Yes. There was the restaurant, and the way

14 we entered the restaurant, the "glass house" would be

15 on our right, and there was a wooden bar that we had to

16 pass by to take our meals. The "glass house" was here

17 and we went for our food here.

18 Q. Were there any prisoners kept in the "glass

19 house" that you could see while you were there?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Can you give me a very approximate idea of

22 how many prisoners were in this area known as the

23 "glass house"?

24 A. In my estimate which may not be correct, but

25 between 30 and 40.

Page 3122

1 Q. Did you know any of the people that were kept

2 in the "glass house"?

3 A. I knew -- just a moment, please. I knew Reuf

4 Travancic; he was an inspector in SUP, an

5 investigator. Then I knew also Kusuran, a doctor. I

6 knew another man, but just now -- and I'm so sorry -- I

7 cannot recollect the surname, but I know that family

8 very well because they are all from Prijedor. Yes,

9 I've remembered. Suljanovic.

10 Q. What about a Dr. Begic? Did you know a

11 Dr. Begic?

12 A. I met Dr. Begic in the camp.

13 Q. You mentioned, I think, a person by the name

14 of Reuf Travancic.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did anything happen to him that you were able

17 to observe at the time that you were in Omarska?

18 A. Everyone could see the injuries on his body.

19 Q. In what way was his body injured? Can you

20 give us a little bit more of a description?

21 A. That man was black and blue -- I don't know

22 how else I could describe it -- as a result of blows.

23 He was almost unconscious.

24 Q. Had he been beaten in the camp or outside of

25 the camp?

Page 3123

1 A. He came beaten up. Where he was beaten, I

2 don't know, but most probably upstairs when he went for

3 interrogation.

4 Q. Did you ever see anyone else in the "glass

5 house," or anywhere else in the camp, that had been

6 beaten in a similar way in the time that you were

7 there?

8 A. Where they beat them, I don't know, but I saw

9 men who had been beaten up.

10 Q. You mentioned upstairs. You used to sleep

11 upstairs; that's right, is it?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Who else used to occupy the area upstairs?

14 A. On the first floor were the two rooms where

15 the women slept; I assume it was in two rooms. Whether

16 there was another room for interrogation, I don't

17 know. But the room I slept in was used for the

18 interrogators to interrogate the prisoners.

19 Q. How do you know that your room was used by

20 the interrogators to interrogate the prisoners?

21 A. I know because we could never go there before

22 7.00 or half past seven, until they finished their

23 work.

24 Q. Did you ever have to clean up the rooms that

25 you slept in?

Page 3124

1 A. Certainly. Every evening before we went to

2 sleep, we women would take turns to clean the room so

3 that the other women could come into a clean room and

4 go to sleep.

5 Q. What did you find in the times that you had

6 to clean up the room, the interrogation room where you

7 slept? What did you find?

8 A. Well, you see, we would come across --

9 whether it was water or urine, I don't know, blood,

10 chairs thrown around, things like that. That is what I

11 personally saw. I don't know about the others.

12 Q. Did you see any implements or things that may

13 have been used during the course of the interrogation?

14 A. I personally did not.

15 Q. Now, did anyone else, apart from the

16 interrogators and you women that slept in this

17 interrogation room, did anyone else stay upstairs?

18 A. On the left-hand side, in the two rooms

19 there, that's where we were. Across the corridor from

20 us were the managers, administrators, the managers of

21 the camp and those who were superior to the shifts that

22 came on duty. I don't know how to explain that. They

23 were actually the shift leaders.

24 Q. Now, when you say "managers," did you know

25 any of these managers, the names of any of these

Page 3125

1 managers?

2 A. By name, I only knew Miro Kvocka by name,

3 that is, before I came to the camp. During my stay in

4 the camp, I got to know Zeljko Meakic. He was one of

5 the first heads.

6 May I continue?

7 Q. Please do.

8 A. Then when Miroslav Kvocka left from that

9 duty, Drago Prcac arrived.

10 Q. Do you know what position Miroslav Kvocka

11 held when he was at the camp?

12 A. Well, according to the conclusions we made

13 and according to their conduct and behaviour, it was

14 Zeljko Meakic and Miroslav Kvocka.

15 Q. How long did you know Miroslav Kvocka before

16 you went into the Omarska camp?

17 A. Well, I didn't actually know him personally

18 but I knew him by name. I knew his name and surname

19 through a colleague at work, who worked with me in the

20 same firm I worked for.

21 Q. What about Zeljko Meakic? Did you know him

22 at all?

23 A. No, I did not.

24 Q. Now, you mentioned the commanders of the

25 shift. Did you know any of these shift commanders or

Page 3126

1 come to know them when you were in the camp?

2 A. I came to know them while I was in the camp;

3 otherwise, I didn't know any of them or hear about

4 them.

5 Q. Can you tell us the names of any of them that

6 you came to know when you were in the camp?

7 A. Yes, I can. I got to know somebody nicknamed

8 Krle, another nicknamed Krkan, and Ckalja.

9 Q. Now, the women that were with you in the

10 interrogation rooms, that slept with you in the

11 interrogation rooms, are you able to give us the names

12 of any of those women?

13 A. Yes. If I forget one name, you'll forgive

14 me, but I'll try. Can I go ahead and name them?

15 Q. Yes. Please do.

16 A. The first woman was Sena Delkic. The second

17 was Munevera Mesic. The third woman was Advija

18 Mahmuljic. Then there was Jadranka Kvocka -- no,

19 Jadranka Cigelj was her name. Then there was Zlata

20 Cikota, and there was Hasiba, known as Biba,

21 Harambasic. There was Tidza; I'll probably remember

22 her surname later on. Then there was Ms. Sada

23 Hadzalic, and Sadeta Medunjanin. Then there was Sadija

24 Avdic. There was a woman called Azra whose surname I

25 don't know. Then there was Suada Ramic. There was

Page 3127

1 Zumra or Zumreta Mehmedovic or Mehmedagic, I'm not

2 quite sure of her surname. And then there was a woman

3 called Valida, I don't know her surname either. There

4 was Jovanka Divis, she left after 10 or 15 days in the

5 camp, she left afterwards because she was a Serb but

6 she was married to a Croat. And for the moment, I

7 can't think of any more names but there was 17 of us

8 women in the room.

9 Q. And can you tell Their honours, how it is you

10 have that memory of the women that were in the room and

11 be able to remember their names?

12 A. Well, it's like this, you see, I have a

13 fairly good memory, but spending a month and a half in

14 the camp, I think I was able to remember the names of

15 those women very well.

16 Q. Did you see a man in the camp, a prisoner by

17 the name of Ibro Crnkic?

18 A. Crnkic, yes.

19 Q. And had you known him or known of him before

20 he was in the camp?

21 A. I had heard of him. He was a professor of

22 mathematics. He taught mathematics and was a

23 well-known figure.

24 Q. And did you have occasion to see him one day

25 in the camp?

Page 3128

1 A. Yes, two or three times at the most.

2 Q. And did any of those two or three times, did

3 he appear to be beaten or injured in any way?

4 A. Yes. Whether it was on that day or one day

5 later, I heard his screams from the beatings, and I saw

6 him being taken down from the floor above from being

7 interrogated. And believe me when I say that I can

8 still hear his cries when I'm sleeping at night. I

9 still hear those screams and his prayers -- that is to

10 say his entreaties to let him go. He said he was not

11 guilty of anything. And to this, they would respond

12 with blows. I didn't see that, but I heard the

13 cursing. They swore and cursed his balija mother and

14 they said that he was no brother of theirs.

15 Q. And did you see his injuries after this

16 beating?

17 A. I didn't see them but you could notice that

18 something was wrong with his arm, his hand.

19 Q. As best you can, can you describe to Their

20 Honours what you saw about his hand and his arm?

21 A. Well, I saw that it wasn't hanging in the

22 right way, and he managed to show one of us inmates but

23 I didn't see that actually, but he showed us his collar

24 bone.

25 Q. And from what you saw and from what you were

Page 3129

1 told, do you understand that it must have been broken?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Do you remember a part of the camp that

4 people would refer to as the "red house"?

5 A. I do remember, yes. I remember the "red

6 house," but up until then, I didn't know about the "red

7 house". I didn't notice it until one day. I don't

8 remember the exact date, but they took the people off

9 towards that house, towards the "red house" along the

10 hangar.

11 Q. And do you know any of the people that were

12 taken off towards the "red house"?

13 A. The only person that I was able to see on the

14 very corner of the hangar was Dr. Begic.

15 Q. And when he was being taken to the "red

16 house," was he being escorted there?

17 A. Well, you don't need to ask me about escorts,

18 no -- none of the camp inmates went anywhere without an

19 escort. So he was, yes.

20 Q. And did you know Dr. Begic before you went

21 into the Omarska camp or know of him?

22 A. No, I have already told you that I got to

23 know Begic in Omarska itself.

24 Q. I see. And after he went to the "red house,"

25 did you ever see him again in the camp?

Page 3130

1 A. No, no. No, never again, and I don't know

2 what happened to him. But unfortunately, and I do

3 apologise if I may say this, he wasn't the only man led

4 off towards the "red house".

5 Q. Did you know any of the others or see any of

6 the others that were taken? I think you said you saw

7 him. Is he the only one that you said you saw?

8 A. No, no, I only saw Begic, me, personally,

9 that is. As for the other people who were taken away,

10 according to those people who escorted them, I do know

11 that, but I don't think it's up to me to say because I

12 didn't actually see it happen.

13 Q. That's fine, that's fine. Did you know a

14 place in the camp that was referred to as the "white

15 house"?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And was this a building that you could see

18 from your position in the restaurant?

19 A. Easily. I didn't have any trouble. It's

20 just as if I was looking straight ahead of me now.

21 Q. And could you see, from time to time, the

22 happenings and events that were going on in and around

23 the "white house"?

24 A. Around the "white house," yes, but not

25 actually in the "white house" itself.

Page 3131

1 Q. Tell us what you saw from time to time.

2 A. Well, I saw people, and in front of the

3 "white house," for example, I saw them being lined up

4 to wash them down with a hose. That was twice during

5 my stay in Omarska. Then I saw daily up above the

6 "white house," there was a wire fence where the

7 inmates of the camp were taken out or brought there,

8 and they were lined up along that wire fence.

9 I assumed that these were dead detainees.

10 Q. And these people you saw lined up, they were

11 laid down, were they, on the ground?

12 A. Yes, that's right.

13 Q. And I take it they appeared dead because they

14 didn't move and were dragged to that place; is that

15 right?

16 A. Yes, that's correct.

17 Q. Who took these apparently dead people to this

18 place?

19 A. Nobody took them, they were carried there,

20 and usually it was the camp inmates who would perform

21 these tasks. They weren't always the same ones, they

22 would change depending on who had to do it when.

23 Q. And how often did you see these apparently

24 dead people taken to this place?

25 A. I don't wish to lie, but I'm quite certain

Page 3132

1 every other day I had occasion to count them up along

2 the fence.

3 Q. And when you counted them, can you give us an

4 idea of the numbers of people that you saw, apparently

5 dead, lined up along the fence?

6 A. On one particular day, I counted at least

7 five. And on one occasion, I counted 13. There were

8 13 of them.

9 Q. And were these people just left there or were

10 they taken away?

11 A. They left them there. When they took them

12 away, I don't know, but the next day they weren't there

13 anymore.

14 Q. So apparently at some stage when you weren't

15 looking, the bodies were taken away.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did you hear or did someone tell you how they

18 were taken away?

19 A. They were driven off in yellow TAM trucks,

20 the same TAM trucks that brought us our food.

21 Q. Now, the people, the prisoners that were kept

22 in the "white house," and I know you said you couldn't

23 see in it, but did you know of a woman being kept in

24 that "white house"?

25 A. Yes, I heard about that and I saw her coming

Page 3133

1 out of the "white house" when she went with the men for

2 breakfast or lunch, whatever it was. But once a day I

3 would see her.

4 Q. Can you describe her condition when you saw

5 her?

6 A. I didn't see her beaten up. On the

7 contrary. She was a very brave young girl and she

8 would hold her head high when she walked from the

9 "white house" to go to have her meals.

10 Q. Was she the only woman kept in the "white

11 house"?

12 A. As far as I know, yes.

13 Q. Do you know why she was kept in the "white

14 house" and not with you women in the restaurant?

15 A. Well, probably she was an extremist compared

16 to us.

17 Q. Do you know her name?

18 A. Her name was Hajra Hodzic.

19 Q. Did she survive the camp, so far as you know?

20 A. She stayed on in the camp after I left. But

21 afterwards nobody ever heard of her, so I have my

22 doubts.

23 Q. Now, when you were in the camp, did you also

24 know of a prisoner there by the name of Nizvet Suljic?

25 A. Nizvet Suljic was my neighbour, and I knew

Page 3134

1 him very well.

2 Q. Did you see him when you were in the camp?

3 A. Yes, I did.

4 Q. What were you able to observe about him?

5 A. I saw him twice when he came to breakfast.

6 On one occasion he told me in passing that my apartment

7 had been taken over by somebody. Somebody was living

8 in it; he didn't know who. On another occasion I saw

9 him going back from being interrogated and he was

10 walking in front of a guard. He was wavering; he was

11 going left and right because he had been beaten so he

12 wasn't very stable on his feet. I saw him that same

13 day dead in one of the fork lorries. He was taken

14 across the pista and taken off somewhere. I don't know

15 where.

16 Q. Were you in the camp on the 12th of July,

17 which was at that time, in that year, a Serb holiday

18 known as Petrov Day?

19 A. I was in Omarska on the 12th of July. It is

20 an Orthodox holiday which is celebrated in the

21 traditional manner, and that kind of thing.

22 Q. Now, in particular, can you recall the

23 evening of -- the eve of Petrov Day?

24 A. I remember it well.

25 Q. Could you tell Their Honours what you

Page 3135

1 remember seeing on the eve of Petrov Day when you were

2 in Omarska?

3 A. I know that they set fire to these tyres

4 instead of torches. I don't know what they used to do

5 when they could celebrate it properly, but I know that

6 these dumper tyres were set fire to on that particular

7 occasion.

8 Q. Once they set the fire going, what happened

9 after that?

10 A. There was a lot of light everywhere about.

11 You could smell smoke; it was an unpleasant smell.

12 There was a lot of shouting, cries, shots, that kind of

13 thing. All kinds of things that night.

14 Q. Was it shouting because people were

15 celebrating or was it shouting because people were

16 distressed; can you remember?

17 A. I think they were shouting because they were

18 mistreated, because when you celebrate you usually

19 sing.

20 Q. Did you see any of the prisoners following

21 that night or that evening in the camp?

22 A. I can't remember exactly now where the

23 prisoners were, but I know that on that particular

24 morning, when we went off to the restaurant, that I saw

25 a large FAP lorry loaded with dead bodies.

Page 3136

1 Q. Were there more bodies that day than what

2 you'd seen on previous occasions, or was it about the

3 same number?

4 A. Not the same number, no. A TAM truck looks

5 different than a large FAP lorry; those are two quite

6 different things.

7 Q. The large FAP lorry, was it loaded? Can you

8 give us a better description of what you saw with this

9 large lorry?

10 A. I saw a full lorry-load of dead bodies

11 covered with a nylon covering, nylon foil, something

12 like that.

13 Q. Now, can you recall, when you were in the

14 camp at Omarska, occasions from time to time when

15 busloads of prisoners would arrive?

16 A. I remember it well. I remember the buses

17 well and we called them -- referred to them as the

18 black Marica.

19 Q. What happened when they arrived? What can

20 you remember?

21 A. When they arrived, all the guards would

22 gather together and beat them. They would shout and

23 cry, and that was it.

24 Q. When you were in the camp, did you know an

25 inmate, a prisoner there by the name of Nedzad Seric?

Page 3137

1 A. Nedzad. Nedzad Seric, yes.

2 Q. Can you tell Their Honours what you saw of

3 him when he was there?

4 A. When I came to the camp, I noticed him

5 because he was very thin, emaciated, and he had some

6 signs of beatings.

7 Q. Did you know what his position was in the

8 community prior to being in Omarska?

9 A. He was an investigating judge in the Prijedor

10 court. Afterwards he was a lawyer, an attorney.

11 Q. Did anything happen to him while you were in

12 the Omarska camp?

13 A. Something did happen but what, I don't know.

14 Anyway, he disappeared.

15 Q. Now, when the women you were sleeping with

16 were in the rooms at night, do you recall anything

17 happening during the night when you were in your

18 sleeping quarters?

19 A. I don't know what you're thinking of. Could

20 you explain what you mean, please?

21 Q. Were any of the women ever called out while

22 you were in your sleeping quarters at night-time?

23 A. Yes, they were.

24 Q. Who called them out?

25 A. I don't know. It was pitch black.

Page 3138

1 Q. I'm not asking you to tell us the names, but

2 were they officials at the camp or were they other

3 prisoners or what? Can you tell us?

4 A. Not the prisoners but the officials. Whether

5 they were the guards or the wardens, I don't really

6 know. But I do know that she was called out on one

7 occasion, she didn't go out, and the inmate next to her

8 said, "Jadranka's in another room." However, the next

9 night Jadranka Cigelj was called out again and taken

10 out this time.

11 Q. Now, did you see her, Jadranka Cigelj, when

12 she came back into the room after she had been taken

13 out?

14 A. Not when she came back, I saw her a day

15 later.

16 Q. All right. When you saw her a day later,

17 what did you -- can you describe her condition, her

18 emotional state?

19 A. Yes, I can. When I saw her a day later, it

20 was just by chance that I happened to be going to the

21 WC, and she was in the bathroom. There was a shower,

22 actually, and her back was turned to me.

23 She didn't notice me at all, but I saw on her

24 right thigh an enormous bruise like this, and on those

25 last -- in those last days, Jadranka Cigelj kept crying

Page 3139

1 all the time. I didn't have the courage to ask her

2 what happened or to ask her where she got that enormous

3 bruise on her right thigh.

4 Q. And when she was crying, did anyone try to

5 comfort her during this time?

6 A. We all comforted her but we didn't know the

7 real reason for her tears because she didn't tell, at

8 least not me, what had happened.

9 Q. When you were in the Omarska camp, at any

10 time were you interrogated?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And when was that, approximately, when were

13 you interrogated?

14 A. I don't know the date, but after 15 days of

15 my stay there, I was taken upstairs for interrogation.

16 I was interrogated by Miro Zoric, and there was another

17 man there whom I don't know. He had a short-sleeved

18 shirt on and a dark blue sleeveless vest. He was

19 shortish.

20 That's as much as I can say to describe him.

21 Q. What did they ask you in the interrogation?

22 What questions did they put to you?

23 A. In the course of the interrogation, they

24 wanted me to show them the opening through which one

25 could climb up to my building and how many -- and which

Page 3140

1 men had come to my apartment.

2 Q. And what did you say to them when they asked

3 you these questions?

4 A. Of course I couldn't answer those questions,

5 because I am single and no one came to my apartment.

6 Secondly, on my staircase where I lived, there was no

7 passage, there was no opening to reach the attic.

8 Q. How long did the interrogation last for,

9 approximately?

10 A. Approximately 45 minutes my interrogation

11 lasted, and their attempts to force me to admit that

12 that had happened.

13 Q. Did they threaten you in any way during this

14 interrogation?

15 A. They did. No one beat me or touched me, but

16 towards the end of the interrogation, he said to me

17 that they do not have the habit of beating women but

18 that I would be beaten. I answered that I was in their

19 hands, they could do what they wanted with me, but that

20 they should believe me that I really knew nothing at

21 all about those things.

22 At the end, when they let me go, they told me

23 that I would be executed.

24 Q. You mentioned that there were shift

25 commanders and shifts in the camp?

Page 3141

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Can you -- from your recollection of what

3 occurred in the Omarska camp, can you tell Their

4 Honours how the shifts worked as best you can remember?

5 A. You mean how they worked, how the shifts

6 worked?

7 Q. Tell us how long the shifts were, can you

8 remember, approximately?

9 A. I do. They worked seven hours, they were on

10 duty, and 24 hours they were off.

11 Q. I see. And were different men on at

12 different times?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And were there different shift commanders at

15 different times?

16 A. Different commanders, yes.

17 Q. Was there any variation in the way you were

18 treated from one particular shift to another?

19 A. There was.

20 Q. And tell us, what sort of variations could

21 you observe between shifts?

22 A. Well, for example, Krkan's shift was the

23 worst.

24 Q. Why do you say that?

25 A. Because they were the roughest in their

Page 3142

1 treatment both of us women and the men.

2 Q. And in terms of the women, what do you say,

3 how were they rough with the women on Krkan's shift?

4 A. They called us all kinds of names. They

5 swore at us. They cursed Tito and Alija. That we were

6 ordinary hens. That we were sitting there like

7 idiots. Would we like coffee with cream or without

8 cream, and we should be filmed naked and bathed with

9 hoses and things like that.

10 Q. You mentioned earlier actually seeing people

11 hosed out front of the "white house"?

12 A. Yes, twice.

13 Q. Could you tell Their Honours what type of

14 hose they were using to hose these prisoners?

15 A. They would take the prisoners out in groups,

16 and it's a hose I can describe as a thick pipe for fire

17 extinguishing, for extinguishing fires, and it was

18 those hoses that they used to bathe them and make fun

19 of them because the pressure was so strong that people

20 would fall down.

21 Q. Now, you mentioned the shift commander Krkan

22 that you testified about when you were in the camp.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. I wonder if you would do something, would you

25 mind looking around the courtroom and see if you see

Page 3143

1 the person that you know as Krkan, and if you do, would

2 you please point out to that person for me? Take your

3 time.

4 A. Can I get up?

5 Q. Certainly you can, yes.

6 A. The first on the right.

7 Q. First on the right facing you?

8 A. Yes, facing me. As I look at him, the first

9 on the right.

10 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, Your Honour, I think

11 the witness has identified --

12 A. May I sit down?

13 MR. NIEMANN: I might clarify that, Your

14 Honour.

15 Q. I think we need to get a bit better

16 description, yes. We need for you to actually -- the

17 first on the right is a guard, you see.

18 A. The commander. The shift commander, the

19 first man on the right is the shift commander known as

20 Krkan.

21 Q. Yes, that's okay. Tell me what is the colour

22 of the coat that that man has on. If you can stand up

23 and have a look again.

24 A. I think he's wearing a dark blue jacket or a

25 black one with a grey tie.

Page 3144

1 Q. And perhaps you might -- just to make sure,

2 can you go over a bit closer and point with your finger

3 at the person just so that we're 100 per cent certain.

4 A. How far can I move?

5 Q. You can take your headset off and point with

6 your finger at the person. Just so there's no doubt

7 about that, just walk over.

8 A. That is Mr. Krkan.

9 Q. Thank you. I think the record might reflect,

10 Your Honour, the witness has identified ...

11 Excuse me, Your Honours, I'm just checking my

12 notes.

13 Just one little question I'd like to ask you

14 and then we will be finished. The -- well, I will be

15 finished at least. The person that interrogated you, I

16 think you said his name was Miroslav Zoric; is that

17 right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did you know him before you were in Omarska?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Did you know what position he had prior to

22 being in the Omarska camp?

23 A. I think he was a teacher. I don't know

24 exactly what subject he taught.

25 Q. And what was his duties in the camp, do you

Page 3145

1 remember?

2 A. This Miro Zoric, you mean? He worked as an

3 interrogator throughout.

4 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, Your Honours, those

5 are my questions.

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

8 very much, Mr. Niemann. I think we shall have a break

9 now before beginning the cross-examination so the

10 Defence can organise themselves, and so we are having a

11 half-hour break.

12 --- Recess taken at 10.45 a.m.

13 --- On resuming at 11.22 a.m.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please take

15 your seat.

16 Mr. Krstan Simic, how are we going to

17 proceed? In what order are you going to

18 cross-examine?

19 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

20 today, again, we will follow the order of the

21 indictment in the cross-examination.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

23 very much.

24 Madam, you are now going to answer questions

25 which the Defence attorneys are going to put to you.

Page 3146

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic,

3 you may begin. Please take care to ask the witness

4 questions, not to engage in a discussion with the

5 witness and not to make comments.

6 Cross-examined by Mr. K. Simic:

7 Q. Good morning, Ms. Hrnic.

8 A. Good morning, Mr. Simic.

9 Q. I have a few very short questions for you.

10 A. I'm at your disposal.

11 Q. You said you got there on the 20th. How did

12 you reach Omarska?

13 A. I arrived in a black Marica, as we call it,

14 the police van.

15 Q. Thank you. During your testimony you spoke

16 about two rooms used by security personnel.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Was anything written on the doors of those

19 rooms? Did you notice anything written there?

20 A. I did not.

21 Q. Madam Hrnic, there were a lot of people in

22 Omarska.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did you notice or hear of any parcels coming

25 for the prisoners?

Page 3147

1 A. Yes, I did, and I saw them.

2 Q. What can you tell us about that?

3 A. I personally can't say much. I know that

4 they arrived; they were distributed to some inmates.

5 Who sent them, I don't know. Most probably relatives.

6 Q. Who brought them there?

7 A. Miro Kvocka. Kvotca [phoen] or Kvocka. I'm

8 sorry.

9 Q. How did he bring them?

10 A. In a Mercedes.

11 Q. Ms. Hrnic, you said you acquired a pension as

12 a result of your service as a seamstress.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did you have any contact with the police

15 ever?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Ms. Hrnic, do you know what work posts exist

18 in the police?

19 A. What do you mean?

20 Q. Well, do you know how the police is

21 organised?

22 A. I suppose the SUP.

23 Q. Are you familiar with the organisation of the

24 SUP?

25 A. Perhaps only when I go there for my

Page 3148

1 identification card.

2 Q. So those were your only contacts with the

3 SUP.

4 A. Yes, indeed.

5 Q. In your company there was an employment

6 system. Do you have any knowledge as to how people

7 were assigned to their work posts in the SUP?

8 A. No, I don't know.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic,

10 excuse me. I don't understand why you are asking this

11 question. The witness mentioned the SUP because the

12 witness went to the SUP before going to the Omarska

13 camp. So I don't understand why you're asking her this

14 question.

15 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

16 the witness made certain conclusions so we wish to

17 clear up the question of her knowledge of things that

18 she referred to.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, but

20 ask questions in the context that the witness spoke in,

21 not in general terms. The witness is not an expert on

22 the organisation of SUP.

23 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

24 Honour, I was just going to end there anyway.

25 Thank you very much, Ms. Hrnic.

Page 3149

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too,

2 sir.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

4 very much, Mr. Simic.

5 Mr. Nikolic.

6 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

7 this Defence team has no cross-examination for this

8 witness.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

10 Thank you, Mr. Nikolic.

11 I see now Mr. Fila. The witness is yours.

12 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour,

13 I have a few questions.

14 Cross-examined by Mr. Fila:

15 Q. Good morning, Ms. Hrnic.

16 A. Good morning, Mr. Fila.

17 Q. I have a few short questions for you and

18 please give me short answers so we'll get it over with

19 quickly.

20 A. Please do.

21 Q. You said that food was brought in a yellow

22 car; do you know from where?

23 A. I do not.

24 Q. Is it true that it wasn't prepared in the

25 facility itself?

Page 3150

1 A. Correct.

2 Q. So it was prepared outside of these buildings

3 shown on the model?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You mentioned shifts. You recognised one of

6 the leaders, Krkan. Can you give us the names of some

7 people working in that shift?

8 A. I only know the nicknames, not their names.

9 Q. Then a few nicknames.

10 A. They are called -- we called this one "coffee

11 with cream" because he kept teasing us. Later on, I

12 learned that they called him "Pop". Whether that was

13 his nickname or whether his surname was Popovic, I

14 don't know.

15 Q. Go on then, please.

16 A. Then I know someone called Zivko. Please

17 don't insist because I really don't know.

18 Q. Ms. Hrnic, in answer to each of my questions,

19 you can say "I do know" or "I don't know".

20 A. Yes, I'll do that.

21 Q. You said that the guards insulted you?

22 A. They did.

23 Q. Did they do this of their own accord or

24 following orders?

25 A. I don't know that.

Page 3151

1 Q. Did you see anyone come and give an order to

2 someone to say such and such a thing?

3 A. I didn't see that, and I don't know whether

4 they did it following orders, but that they insulted

5 me, they did.

6 Q. Did you, perhaps, notice certain guards doing

7 it repeatedly, constantly like this one coffee with

8 cream, for instance?

9 A. All those guards were insolent. They were

10 all insolent. That's all that I can say.

11 Q. I'm asking you about Krkan's shift.

12 A. Yes, I'm talking about Krkan's shift, and it

13 was the shift that I named. All of us feared them and

14 if that is enough for you, sir, that's all I have to

15 say.

16 Q. What I wanted to ask you were: How many

17 guards were there who would insult? I'm interested in

18 the number roughly.

19 A. I know that in one shift there would be 15

20 guards, but all 15 of them did not come to the

21 restaurant at the same time. Sometimes it was one,

22 sometimes another. Can I go on?

23 Q. Yes, of course, you can say whatever you

24 want.

25 A. For instance I know one of the guards called

Page 3152

1 Drazenko who was the worst towards all the prisoners.

2 Q. And which shift was he in?

3 A. I don't know which shift he was in.

4 Q. You said that the inmates came to eat in

5 three minutes.

6 A. Not the guards, the prisoners.

7 Q. Yes, just wait for me to complete the

8 question. Can you tell us, because you were staying in

9 the restaurant, when those meals began and how many

10 came in a group and when they ended?

11 A. I said that depended on when the meal

12 arrived, when breakfast arrived. From 9.00 a.m. and

13 until 4.00 or 5.00 in the afternoon. They would come

14 this groups of 30 or 31. One would come, the others

15 would go, back and forth.

16 Q. And they all had three minutes each?

17 A. Yes, all had three minutes only.

18 Q. Was the time limited to three minutes because

19 otherwise their turn would never come?

20 A. I don't know.

21 Q. You mentioned that you did the washing up,

22 with water?

23 A. Of course with water.

24 Q. Where did the water come from?

25 A. It was -- water was brought in. We had to

Page 3153

1 pour water into these washing basins when the water

2 stopped, when there was no water in the tap.

3 Q. Yes, but when there was tap water, was it the

4 normal sort of water that you used to wash up, and did

5 you drink that water?

6 A. Yes, we did.

7 Q. Was it normal water?

8 A. No, it wasn't. It was industrial water.

9 Q. What does that mean?

10 A. Water that is not for drinking.

11 Q. This water in the pipes, where did it -- how

12 did it reach those pipes, do you know?

13 A. I know that they brought in the water with a

14 reservoirs, truck reservoirs.

15 Q. My question is: When you opened the tap or

16 when you flush in the toilet, was that water brought in

17 tanks, in reservoirs?

18 A. I don't know.

19 Q. And you're saying that that water was

20 industrial water?

21 A. What I am saying is that we used industrial

22 water and we drank that water, and that water was

23 brought in tanks.

24 Q. And the water in the tap, was that industrial

25 water, I'm asking you. Please give me yes or no.

Page 3154

1 A. No, I don't know.

2 Q. So which water was industrial water according

3 to you?

4 A. I don't know.

5 Q. Very well. You mentioned Petrovdan as being

6 the 12th of July; is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Let us -- a day before the 12th is the 11th,

9 a day after the 12th is the 13th; that is correct,

10 isn't it?

11 A. Yes, of course.

12 Q. Now, could you tell us what day the 11th, the

13 12th or the 13th these tyres were burned, and on what

14 day did you see this larger number of bodies being

15 placed on the truck? Prior to the Petrovdan

16 celebration, the night before, was that the 11th,

17 madam?

18 A. Yes, I think it was the 11th.

19 Q. Very well, thank you. Can we put it this way

20 then: On the night between the 11th and 12th, that

21 evening, that night, the tyres were burned that you

22 mentioned and the next day, you saw --

23 A. I saw a full truck.

24 Q. Yes, you saw bodies, so it was on Petrovdan

25 in the morning?

Page 3155

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Thank you, madam. The event itself, am I

3 right in saying that you didn't see the event itself,

4 you just heard about; it is that correct, heard this

5 burning of tyres, et cetera?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Where were you?

8 A. I was in the room upstairs.

9 Q. From that room in which you stayed, can you

10 see the "white house" or the pista from there? That

11 night when you were sleeping, of course, that's

12 different.

13 A. Yes, of course. I understood you. From the

14 room, you could see part of the pista and the "white

15 house".

16 Q. Did you then see, where you could see -- the

17 place you could see, that there was nothing there?

18 A. Sir, I wasn't looking. We were -- we kept

19 very small, you know, we had to lie down and we just

20 heard. We weren't allowed to do anything else and I

21 say this, I hope you believe me, but we heard screams,

22 we heard these orgies, we heard these shots. We felt

23 fire. There was light coming from it.

24 Q. That's all right, madam, there's no need to

25 get excited. I have already heard you say what you

Page 3156

1 said today, so you could see, but you didn't see; is

2 that it?

3 A. Well, we weren't allowed to look.

4 Q. Was there somebody in the room who prevented

5 you from looking?

6 A. No, there was not.

7 Q. On that particular night like all the other

8 nights, were you alone in your room, you women?

9 A. Yes, we were.

10 Q. So what prevented you from getting up and

11 going to the window and having a look out through the

12 window?

13 A. There was a guard on the roof and we called

14 him the "machine-gunist" because there was a

15 machine-gun set up there.

16 Q. That's on the roof not in the room; is that

17 right?

18 A. Well, actually it's not a roof, it's a flat

19 roof, and they were positioned there. And it was sort

20 of security for the inmates.

21 Q. So this machine-gunist prevented you from

22 going to the window and looking out; is that right?

23 A. Sir, I'm telling you once again that I

24 personally did not get up. Perhaps somebody else did

25 but I, myself, did not.

Page 3157

1 Q. Madam, in the course of the night, was it

2 possible for you to go outside, was there a guard in

3 front of the room?

4 A. It was possible for us to go to the toilet.

5 Q. I'm asking you whether there was a guard

6 posted in front of your room in the corridor in front

7 of your rooms?

8 A. The guards were a little lower down. They

9 had a table there sitting around drinking coffee.

10 Q. I don't think they would be sitting around

11 drinking coffee during the night and I'm asking you

12 about night-time.

13 A. I did not go out that night so I don't know

14 whether they were there or not.

15 Q. Very well. Thank you. It's my fault, I'm

16 not talking about that particular night, I'm talking

17 about generally speaking at night, was there a guard

18 there and where was he sitting?

19 A. If they were sitting, they didn't have to

20 drink coffee all night, there was enough beer to go

21 around for the night.

22 Q. Ms. Hrnic, I'm asking you at night, from 7.00

23 at night until 7.00 in the morning, was there a guard

24 or not?

25 A. Yes, there was a guard. Yes, there was.

Page 3158

1 Q. How many; can you tell us?

2 A. I cannot, no.

3 Q. Do you know any of the guards by name, the

4 guards that were on night duty?

5 A. I do not know their names.

6 Q. Very well. Was it possible for you to leave

7 your room, to go up to the roof, for example?

8 A. No.

9 Q. I see. No. But someone from your room went

10 down the corridor and went on the roof, did they?

11 A. How could they pass and go up to the roof?

12 They didn't dare. We weren't allowed to. Even if we

13 wanted to, we didn't dare and couldn't do that.

14 Q. Ms. Hrnic, that is what I say, but there was

15 a witness who said that they left your room and got up

16 onto the roof; that's why I'm asking you. But thank

17 you for your answer.

18 Could you please indicate to us, if that is

19 at all possible, you mentioned a fence of some kind, a

20 wire fence, where was that wire fence? Can you show

21 us, please?

22 A. Yes, I can.

23 Q. Just point. You can just point to where it

24 was.

25 A. It was by the "white house," up above the

Page 3159

1 "white house."

2 Q. You mean towards the Judges? What do you

3 mean "in front," "above"?

4 A. This is the "white house," and when I say --

5 I mean above the "white house."

6 Q. Looking at it from your angle of vision, how

7 does it lie?

8 A. Well, I'm showing you, sir. It was straight

9 across there. The fence was straight across there.

10 That there is the "red house," and in front of this

11 fencing, the bodies were lined up.

12 Q. So the fence was between the "white" and "red

13 house"; is that right?

14 A. Yes, that's right.

15 Q. What was its direction and position?

16 A. It went in this direction.

17 Q. I see. So the space between the "white

18 house" and the "red house" was cut across by a fence;

19 is that correct?

20 A. Yes, it is.

21 Q. Do you mean from the hangar?

22 A. Well, I don't know whether it was actually

23 from the hangar, but it was in between those two

24 houses.

25 Q. Very well. Thank you. Do you know a lady

Page 3160

1 called (redacted)

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Was she in the camp?

4 A. Yes, she was, in another room.

5 Q. What do you know about her behaviour?

6 A. I don't know anything about her behaviour,

7 but I know that she would usually distribute the food.

8 Q. Did she have any cooperation with the

9 management of the camp, and would she give out

10 information about the inmates?

11 A. I don't know. I didn't hear that. But I

12 know that she was very frequently with Zeljko Meakic.

13 Q. I see. Thank you. But you don't happen to

14 know whether she would report somebody or whether they

15 thought that she might be reporting people?

16 A. Well, I don't know about that. I didn't hear

17 anything of that kind.

18 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] That would be

19 all. Thank you, Your Honours.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,

21 Mr. Fila.

22 Mr. Tosic, your witness.

23 MR. TOSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the

24 Defence counsel shall not be cross-examining this

25 witness. Thank you.

Page 3161

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

2 very much, Mr. Tosic.

3 Mr. Jovan Simic.

4 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] We have no

5 questions for this witness either, Your Honours.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

7 very much, Mr. Jovan Simic.

8 Mr. Niemann, any additional questions?

9 MR. NIEMANN: No, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 Judge Fouad Riad has the floor.

12 Questioned by the Court:

13 JUDGE RIAD: Good morning, Madam Hrnic. I

14 hope I've pronounced your name properly.

15 A. Yes, you've done it well. Good morning to

16 you too.

17 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you. I have just a few

18 clarifications to ask you about.

19 You mentioned that you would see bodies at

20 the fence; one day it was five bodies, one day it was

21 15 bodies. Then they were taken away the next day,

22 they were not there, that they were taken away later in

23 a yellow TAM truck. Did you ever know how these dead

24 bodies were killed? Because you said that they were

25 dead.

Page 3162

1 A. Can I put something right?


3 A. Make a correction?

4 JUDGE RIAD: Please do.

5 A. I didn't say there were 15 of them, because I

6 counted 13 at the most on one particular day.

7 JUDGE RIAD: Good. But they were dead?

8 A. As far as I knew, yes, dead.

9 JUDGE RIAD: But how were they killed, you

10 have no idea?

11 A. I don't know that.

12 JUDGE RIAD: Then you spoke about the eve of

13 Petrovdan in Omarska when you heard shouts, tyres

14 burning, and shots, and you saw in the morning a large

15 lorry with dead bodies. What was this occasion? Was

16 it a religious day? Was it a national festivity? Why

17 were there an exceptional number of killed people; do

18 you know? Was there a fight?

19 A. I know that it is an Orthodox holiday and

20 it's called Petrovdan, St. Peter's day, and I said that

21 a moment ago. I didn't understand -- did you ask me if

22 there was a fight of any kind?

23 JUDGE RIAD: Why were there so many people

24 killed that night or that day? Was there some kind of

25 insurrection in the camp of the inmates, for instance,

Page 3163

1 or was it just an opportunity to execute?

2 A. I think there might have been an uprising of

3 some -- I doubt that there was an uprising. But why

4 they killed so many people, I don't know. They were

5 killed, they were loaded up on the truck, they were

6 covered with this nylon foil, that is true, and I don't

7 know what else I can tell you.

8 JUDGE RIAD: Well, in the event there was an

9 uprising, the inmates, did they have any kind of

10 weapons, or were their weapons completely taken away?

11 A. No. The detainees were bare-handed, just

12 like I am now. All I have is my glasses in front of

13 me. That's how they were, bare-handed.

14 JUDGE RIAD: You spoke about several people

15 who seemed to be important people and who were either

16 badly treated or disappeared. You spoke about a judge

17 Seric who disappeared, about a professor of

18 mathematics, Crnkic, and about Dr. Begic. Were these

19 people eminent people? Were they chosen particularly

20 to be mistreated or to disappear?

21 A. They were all highly distinguished people. A

22 doctor can never be an ordinary man, nor can a

23 professor. They are intellectuals. In a word,

24 intellectuals.

25 JUDGE RIAD: They had some kind of priority

Page 3164

1 in the bad treatment or in disappearing?

2 A. In my opinion, in my opinion, that need not

3 be so. But intellectuals and rich people, they

4 suffered most, and of course the ordinary people as

5 well.

6 JUDGE RIAD: Why did they arrest you in

7 particular? And then they threatened you, as you

8 mentioned, in the interrogation, they threatened to

9 execute you. Is there something in particular which

10 they suspected?

11 A. They had no reason to suspect me of anything

12 because, first and foremost, I never meddled in

13 politics at all. From day one I was an orphan and my

14 prime goal was to survive, and for 33 years I was an

15 ordinary worker, a seamstress. I had to reach my norms

16 to make a living for myself. So the only reason was

17 that I was a Muslim and they wanted to take away what

18 little property I had so that I couldn't return

19 anywhere and leave Omarska.

20 JUDGE RIAD: You said you had 17 other ladies

21 with you in the same room, Hasiba, Avdija, Valida, and

22 so on. Was there any reason for their arrest? Were

23 they some kind of, as you said -- you spoke about

24 another woman, Hajra Hodzic, who was more or less an

25 outspoken, perhaps, fighter. The others too, did they

Page 3165

1 represent any opposition? Why were they, in

2 particular, taken? Did they take any woman

3 haphazardly?

4 A. I don't know.

5 JUDGE RIAD: But you don't -- yes?

6 A. Every one of those women will come here, and

7 then they can state their reasons.

8 JUDGE RIAD: I see. You don't know much

9 about them?

10 A. No. No.

11 JUDGE RIAD: But you only knew about Jadranka

12 who was called out at night.

13 A. I know Jadranka as a -- well, she's a girl

14 compared to me because I'm much older than her, and I

15 knew her when I came to the camp, and a few other women

16 as well, I knew them. But I knew nothing about her.

17 It was only in the camp that I learnt that she was --

18 that she had studied law and that she was in the room

19 with me.

20 JUDGE RIAD: Were the other women called out

21 at night, apart from Jadranka?

22 A. Not at night, no.

23 JUDGE RIAD: During the day?

24 A. During the day one young girl was taken out,

25 but I don't know for what reason. Whether it was by

Page 3166

1 force or whether for any other reasons, adultery, I

2 don't know.

3 JUDGE RIAD: But you felt when Jadranka came

4 back that there was a reason.

5 A. I didn't think there was a reason. I just --

6 well, I don't know how to answer that question of

7 yours. I really don't.

8 JUDGE RIAD: I don't want to put you in any

9 difficulty. You said that she was crying all the time

10 and that she had enormous bruises.

11 A. Yes, that's right.

12 JUDGE RIAD: But there was no other

13 information?

14 A. Nothing more, no.

15 JUDGE RIAD: Now, you said that Kvocka

16 brought parcels. Was it for all the inmates or was it

17 for special people?

18 A. Only for special people, not for everybody,

19 no.

20 JUDGE RIAD: Who were these special people;

21 do you know?

22 A. Well, I could enumerate them. There was Dedo

23 Crnalic and his wife's uncle or uncle's son, I'm not

24 quite sure; then Ziko Crnalic; then he brought it for

25 Braco Burazerovic and for some other people as well,

Page 3167

1 but unfortunately those people are no more.

2 JUDGE RIAD: Last question. You said that

3 Krkan's shift was the roughest. Did you say that?

4 A. That's correct.

5 JUDGE RIAD: In what way was it the roughest?

6 A. I have already said that they beat the

7 detainees most on their way to meals and coming back

8 from meals, and that they mistreated us women; that is

9 to say, they abused us verbally. They didn't beat us

10 but said all manner of things to us.

11 JUDGE RIAD: You mean the other shifts did

12 not beat the inmates, only this shift used to beat the

13 inmates?

14 A. Yes, all of them beat the inmates but these

15 were the roughest.

16 JUDGE RIAD: I see. Thank you very much,

17 Ms. Hrnic.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,

20 Judge Fouad Riad.

21 Madam Judge Wald has the floor.

22 JUDGE WALD: Ms. Hrnic, you said that the

23 food was brought in from the outside, and I think you

24 said that it was brought in in the same kind of yellow

25 TAM trucks that were used to remove the bodies when

Page 3168

1 they were piled up near the "white house."

2 Did you have any opportunity to see what kind

3 of people were either driving those trucks or brought

4 the food into the kitchen from those trucks? In other

5 words, were they soldiers, police, civilians? Did you

6 ever see what kind of people were bringing the food in?

7 A. I did see the people, yes. I don't know

8 their names. They were not wearing uniforms. They

9 were wearing their work clothes because they were

10 workers of the iron ore mine of Ljubija.

11 JUDGE WALD: Those yellow TAM trucks that

12 they brought the food in or that carried away the

13 bodies, did those have the labels of the mining company

14 on them, or they were just yellow trucks?

15 A. They were just yellow trucks. The

16 traditional, I apologise, I can't seem to say the word,

17 but they were vehicles belonging to the mine.

18 JUDGE WALD: Okay. On the food, one other

19 question. You said that most of the time it was bread

20 and either some kind of sour beans or a weak cabbage

21 soup. Did anything have to be done in the kitchen of

22 the restaurant or did it come in buckets and went

23 straight to be distributed to the inmates?

24 A. I have already said that the food was brought

25 in ready-prepared. Now, where it was brought in from,

Page 3169

1 I don't know. I heard that it was from the separation

2 department. But the food was not cooked in the

3 restaurant, it was just distributed, and the dishes

4 were washed. So the food would come in ready-prepared.

5 JUDGE WALD: Okay, thank you. Another

6 question. On the day of Petrovdan, on the evening

7 whichever evening it was you heard the sounds of the --

8 and smelled the tyres being burned when you were in

9 your -- and heard the noises when you were in your

10 sleeping rooms, do you have any knowledge of what shift

11 was on that evening, which commander's shift was on

12 duty that evening?

13 A. I don't know.

14 JUDGE WALD: Okay. My last question is:

15 During any time, no matter whose shift it was, whether

16 it was Krkan's shift or some other shift, when the

17 women were called names or were verbally harassed by

18 the guards, did you, on any of those occasions, ever

19 see the shift commander there when that happened no

20 matter who he was?

21 In other words, did the guards do this when

22 their commander, their shift commander or any camp

23 official was not around or did you see any occasion

24 when there was a camp official or a shift commander

25 around and the guards still verbally harassed the

Page 3170

1 women?

2 A. I don't remember. Please believe me when I

3 say that I do not remember.

4 JUDGE WALD: I believe you. Thank you.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Madam

6 Hrnic, I have just one question for you. You gave us

7 the impression that the commander of the camp was

8 Zeljko Meakic and that after that, Kvocka came, and

9 after Kvocka, after Kvocka left, that Prcac came.

10 What did you observe? What did you see or

11 did anybody tell you that? How did you learn that to

12 be the case?

13 A. Well, this was the impression I gained. I

14 gained the impression that they were the wardens,

15 because the leaders had to talk to them, to consult

16 them. In a word, well, they all would say Zeljko and

17 Kvocka are the wardens. All of them said that.

18 Everybody said that.

19 I didn't ask them whether they were the

20 wardens or whether somebody else was the warden, but I

21 viewed them too as being wardens. If I was wrong,

22 well, I don't know. That's all I have to say.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] On

24 occasion, either Zeljko Meakic or perhaps Miroslav

25 Kvocka, did they introduce themselves as being the

Page 3171

1 commanders of the camp or deputy commanders?

2 A. Not to me personally.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And to

4 others, do you happen to know?

5 A. I don't know that. I cannot say.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] For

7 example, Madam Hrnic, if you were to look around this

8 room and the way in which you have observed the

9 functioning of this courtroom, who is the coordinator

10 of the courtroom? Who orchestrates things? Or let me

11 put the question to you differently: Who is the

12 commander in this room?

13 A. Well, I would assume that it is you.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, I'm

15 asking for your opinion, yes.

16 A. In my opinion, it is you, sir. And among

17 others, your two colleagues working with you, and I

18 think the main -- my main questioner is the gentleman,

19 that's how I see things. Whether that is indeed so, I

20 cannot say.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 Now, why have you arrived at that conclusion, can you

23 explain that to us? How did you bring in that

24 conclusion?

25 A. First of all you are sitting in the position

Page 3172

1 you are sitting in. You seem to be the main person,

2 the responsible person, the number one person, in my

3 opinion. Then to your left and right, those are

4 your -- the people that you confer with. That's it.

5 That's my vision of things.

6 If I'm wrong, please put me right. I don't

7 know, I apologise.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, you

9 are a very wise lady and you have a lot of experience

10 so it is always possible based on observations to make

11 conclusions who is the man in charge, who the

12 responsible people are, and who the people who are not

13 responsible. I can conclude that, Ms. Hrnic; would you

14 agree with me?

15 A. Yes, I'm not sure in the sense you were

16 speaking of. Were you referring to the camp and who

17 was responsible in the camp or what, or do you mean

18 here in this courtroom? What were you asking me

19 about?

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Both.

21 A. Well, in the camp, the responsible person was

22 the commander. It was them, they were the most

23 responsible. Then, there were their deputies and they

24 were -- well not the guards, but the brigadiers, shall

25 I say.

Page 3173

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well,

2 madam. So on the basis of one's observation, is it

3 possible to draw certain conclusions as to who is the

4 number one man or not?

5 A. Well, yes, you must be able to conclude that.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

7 Thank you, Madam Hrnic. I don't think we have any

8 exhibits to tender. You have completed your testimony

9 here. You have answered questions put to you by

10 Mr. Niemann and the questions put to you by the Defence

11 counsel and, indeed, by the Judges.

12 Is there anything that you would like to say

13 at this point which hasn't been asked of you yet and

14 you would like to state?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have nothing,

16 no.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well,

18 thank you. We should like to take this opportunity to

19 extend our gratitude to you once again and wish you bon

20 voyage to your place of residence and your country of

21 residence and you are now going to leave the courtroom

22 with the usher.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very

24 much. Thank you one and all. You are very proper in

25 your conduct towards me, and wishing me bon voyage back

Page 3174

1 to my own country, that would be my greatest wish, but

2 I do doubt that I can go back there. But that is the

3 only wish I have, to go back to my apartment and my

4 town. Thank you very much.

5 [The witness withdrew]

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes,

7 Mr. Niemann.

8 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, I didn't want to

9 interrupt when Your Honours were asking questions, but

10 when Judge Riad was asking a question, there seemed to

11 be a question whether or not there was an uprising, not

12 confusion on Your Honours' part, but confusion, I

13 think, in the translation.

14 As I heard the translation it was, "There was

15 no uprising," or words to that effect. But it did come

16 across at one stage as if the witness was saying there

17 was an uprising, and I thought I, perhaps, should

18 clarify that matter, Your Honours.

19 I think the translation clearly was there was

20 no uprising, if I may assist, Your Honours.

21 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you Mr. Niemann, I was in

22 this confusion too. Thank you.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Hollis

24 or Mr. Niemann, I don't know.

25 I see Mr. Simic, Ms. Hollis.

Page 3175

1 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I

2 don't know whether Ms. Hollis is going to raise the

3 same issue, but we had certain contacts during the

4 break regarding the status of the witness that is about

5 to come. We fear that we will not be able to complete

6 the cross-examination.

7 The next hearing will be in 14 days, and

8 keeping the witness under the obligation not to have

9 any contacts, we were discussing the possibility of not

10 starting the examination-in-chief today, but rather

11 that we have the Status Conference now. So I'm

12 speaking on behalf of the entire Defence.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

14 Thank you very much. There is an order and I have -- I

15 think you have deprived Ms. Hollis of a good

16 opportunity to say this. It is up to her to propose

17 this -- to raise this matter, but your task has been

18 facilitated.

19 MS. HOLLIS: It certainly has, Your Honour,

20 and we thank the Defence for doing that. We did have

21 this discussion about the witness. We are in Your

22 Honours' hands. We believe it is possible that

23 cross-examination would not be completed today so we

24 simply wanted to put the matter to Your Honours to

25 determine how you wanted to proceed.

Page 3176

1 We can either proceed and do as much as we

2 can today or we could begin afresh with this witness at

3 the beginning of the next session. So again, we simply

4 raise the matter for Your Honours' determination.

5 JUDGE WALD: How long do you propose the

6 direct will be?

7 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour we believe the

8 direct will be between one and one and a half hours.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Just a

10 moment, Ms. Hollis, please.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] As for the

13 Defence, do you have any idea how much time you will

14 need for the cross-examination?

15 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

16 we have no idea until we hear the

17 examination-in-chief.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. But

19 Ms. Hollis said one hour to one and a half hours, the

20 duration. Of course the problem is the content. We

21 are concerned, because it always means that a witness

22 will have to come and go back, and come back again. If

23 we thought that we could begin and finish today, it

24 would be better because the witness would not have to

25 come back again. But I fear that working under

Page 3177

1 pressure and forcing the Defence counsel to proceed

2 quickly is something I would rather not do. I think

3 that the Chamber should discipline the debate but

4 should not prevent a debate. So I think there is a

5 risk of juxtaposing many considerations, and perhaps we

6 could go on working until 6.00, because we have a

7 Status Conference too and that is a great risk for the

8 proper rendering of justice.

9 It is in the interests of justice not to

10 begin; however, in the interests of the administration

11 of justice, it is to begin. However, as justice

12 considerations are more important, I think that we

13 should have a break and begin with the Status

14 Conference. I think that would be the best solution.

15 We're going to have a half-hour break, and

16 after that, immediately we'll proceed with the Status

17 Conference. It will be a public hearing. Because

18 there was some hesitation before and I think the

19 parties prefer us all to be in robes, so that is how

20 we're going to work for the Status Conference, in

21 public and in robes.

22 A half-hour break.

23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

24 12.15 p.m., to be followed by a

25 Status Conference

page 3178