Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3540

1 Wednesday, 5 July 2000

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.37 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning. You may be

6 seated.

7 Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Good morning, the technical

8 booth, the interpreters. Good morning, legal assistants and court

9 reporters, Madam Registrar. I see Ms. Hollis and Mr. Saxon. I think I am

10 not wrong today. I see that all Defence counsel are present.

11 We're going to resume with the continuation of the testimony we

12 started yesterday. I think the usher has already gone to bring in the

13 witness.

14 [The witness entered court]

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Strikovic.

16 Can you hear me well?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning. I hear you well.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated. I should

19 like to remind you that you are continuing to testify under oath, and I

20 hope you have had a good rest. Have you had a good rest?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So please continue to answer

23 questions which Ms. Hollis is going to put to you.

24 Ms. Hollis, your witness.

25 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 3541

1 WITNESS: ERMIN STRIKOVIC [Resumed]

2 Examined by Ms. Hollis: [Continued]

3 Q. Good morning, Mr. Strikovic.

4 A. Good morning.

5 Q. Mr. Strikovic, are you familiar with an Orthodox religious feast

6 day called Petrovdan?

7 A. Yes, I've heard of it.

8 Q. Do you recall this Petrovdan feast day while you were in the

9 Omarska camp?

10 A. Yes, I do.

11 Q. In what room were you being held on this Petrovdan?

12 A. The room we called number 15.

13 Q. And that was room B7 on the diagram; is that correct?

14 A. I don't have the diagram, and I don't remember from yesterday how

15 it was marked so I can't give you a precise answer to your question.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 MS. HOLLIS: Could 3/77D please be provided to the witness.

18 Q. Sir, if you would please take a moment to look at that diagram.

19 Again, if you could tell us which room was room 15?

20 A. Yes. On this diagram, room number 15 is marked as B7.

21 Q. Now, on this Petrovdan Orthodox feast occasion in Omarska camp,

22 what do you recall seeing?

23 A. In the room we called 15, and it's marked here as B7, there is a

24 room within that room marked as B23. Those were actually toilets or

25 showers for the workers who used to work in the Omarska mine. On the

Page 3542

1 lateral wall, there is a small window and I can show it, with your

2 permission, on the diagram.

3 Q. Yes, please do.

4 A. This small window is right here.

5 Q. From that window, what can you see?

6 A. Of course we were not allowed to look through any openings,

7 windows, of the rooms we were in. However, several men plucked up the

8 courage to take a look at what was happening in front of the building that

9 we called the workshop, that is, the hangar, and I was among them. I

10 briefly looked -- I didn't dare spend a lot of time at the window -- and I

11 saw, in the area in front of the house that we called the "white house," a

12 big fire and people walking around that fire. That's all I managed to

13 see.

14 Q. Now, were you able to recognise any of the people walking around

15 that fire?

16 A. No, I wasn't able to recognise any.

17 Q. Were you able to recognise how any of those people were dressed?

18 A. They were dressed in normal civilian clothes. The people moving

19 around the fire were not in uniform. They were dressed in normal

20 clothes.

21 Q. While you were looking out onto this scene with this fire and

22 these people moving around it, did you hear any kind of noises?

23 A. One didn't have to look through the window to hear the noise. It

24 was enough to be inside those premises to hear the noise because it was

25 loud, the voices were loud.

Page 3543

1 Q. What did you hear?

2 A. They were screams, yells.

3 Q. Did these screams and yells seem to be screams and yells of

4 excitement and pleasure, or did they sound like screams and yells of pain?

5 A. No, those were screams of pain.

6 Q. Now, do you know whose shift was on duty at the time you saw this

7 incident around this fire?

8 A. I know. It was Krkan's shift.

9 Q. Did you know a man by the name of Sead Sivac before you were

10 brought to the Omarska camp?

11 A. Yes, I did. We were good friends.

12 Q. How long had you known him?

13 A. Ten years or so.

14 Q. What was his occupation?

15 A. He was a vet.

16 Q. Where did he live?

17 A. In the hamlet of Sivci, in Kozarac.

18 Q. Where is Sivci located in relation to the town of Kozarac?

19 A. The town of Kozarac is on the main road from Prijedor to Banja

20 Luka, and it is 12 kilometres away from Prijedor. The very centre of the

21 town is on the left-hand side of that highway, facing Banja Luka. The

22 hamlets of Hrnici, Sivci, Trnopolje, and others are located on the

23 right-hand side of that main road or, to be more precise, between the

24 Prijedor-Banja Luka main road and the Prijedor-Banja Luka railway line.

25 Three or four kilometres from the main road, in the direction of the

Page 3544

1 railway tracks going from Prijedor to Banja Luka.

2 Q. What was Mr. Sead Sivac's ethnicity?

3 A. He was a Bosniak Muslim.

4 Q. Was he held in the same room with you in Omarska camp?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. What room was that?

7 A. Number 15.

8 Q. How long were you held together in that room?

9 A. About four weeks.

10 Q. While you were held together in that room, how many times was

11 Mr. Sivac called out of that room?

12 A. Twice.

13 Q. The first time, why was he called out; do you know?

14 A. I can't remember exactly why he was called out --

15 Q. What was his --

16 A. -- but I know that he was called out.

17 Q. What was his condition? After he was called out this first time,

18 what was his condition when he came back?

19 A. After the first call-out, he returned in a normal condition. He

20 came back and went back to his place in room number 15.

21 Q. The second time that he was called out, when he came back, what

22 was his condition?

23 A. After the second call-out, he could not walk on his own. He

24 managed to reach the door of the room, and the rest of the way, from the

25 door to his place, he was carried by several of the detainees from number

Page 3545

1 15. Since he was lying next to me, I tried to give him assistance as far

2 as I was able. He had been beaten up.

3 Q. Were you able to observe any signs of bruising or injuries on his

4 body?

5 A. Yes, I saw all the injuries on his body.

6 Q. What did you observe?

7 A. The worst injuries were on his back and kidney area; bruises on

8 the neck, legs, arms, chest. But the worst injuries, or the largest

9 hematoma, as a consequence of the beating, could be seen in the kidney

10 area.

11 Q. Could you describe for the Court the colour and what this bruising

12 looked like?

13 A. In the kidney area and on the neck, these bruises were of a

14 strange, dark colour. It was more like black than blue. Swollen,

15 swellings, very dark in colour.

16 Q. Now, you indicated that when he came back he was not able to walk

17 on his own. How long was it before he was able to walk on his own?

18 A. It took about seven days for Sead Sivac to be able to get up again

19 and make a few steps without anybody's assistance.

20 Q. Do you know what shift was on this second time he was taken out?

21 A. When he was taken out the second time, all of us who were in

22 number 15 could see the guard who opened the door and who called out his

23 name. So I knew, as did the majority of the detainees in room number 15,

24 that that guard belonged to Krkan's shift.

25 Q. Did Sead Sivac himself tell you anything about who had beaten him

Page 3546

1 or what was going to happen to him?

2 A. Sead Sivac did not know many of the people working there or,

3 rather, the guards who were on duty as security. He didn't tell me the

4 names because he was not capable of speaking normally. He was fighting

5 between life and death. Of course I didn't even ask him. And when he

6 recovered enough to be able to walk on his own, I tried to avoid that

7 subject to help him recover psychologically. So my answer is, we didn't

8 discuss it.

9 Q. Now, I'd like to draw your attention to the 27th of July. On the

10 27th of July, was Sead Sivac called out again?

11 A. Yes, Sead Sivac was called out again on the 27th of July, at

12 exactly 2.20 p.m.

13 Q. What happened when he was called out on the 27th of July?

14 A. The guard that called him out and who was standing at the door

15 waiting for him to come out, when he came out, he kicked him in the

16 chest. Then he dragged him out, shut the door, and I didn't see anything

17 any more.

18 Q. Since that time, have you ever seen Sead Sivac?

19 A. I never saw him again.

20 Q. To your knowledge, is he listed as missing today?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did you know the man by the name of Miro Solaja before you were

23 taken to the Omarska camp?

24 A. Yes, I did know him. We worked in the same company for nine

25 years.

Page 3547

1 Q. What was his ethnicity?

2 A. He was a Croat.

3 Q. Did you see him in Omarska camp?

4 A. Twice.

5 Q. When you first saw him, where did you see him?

6 A. I saw him the first time in front of the entrance to the

7 administration building of the Omarska mine. He was wearing a sports

8 suit, and under his arm he held a blanket. He was carrying a blanket.

9 Q. The last time that you saw him, where did you see him?

10 A. His immobile body I saw in front of the "white house."

11 Q. How close to his body were you?

12 A. Two metres, one metre.

13 Q. Did you see any signs of life in that body?

14 A. No. His body gave no signs of life.

15 Q. Now, if I could go back for a moment. On the 27th of July, when

16 Sead Sivac was called out for the last time, you said that you saw the

17 guard who called him out and you saw the guard kick him. Do you know what

18 guard or what shift that guard worked on?

19 A. I do. He worked in Krkan's shift.

20 Q. Now, you testified that when you were interrogated in Omarska you

21 were not beaten. Were you ever beaten or otherwise physically abused

22 while you were in the Omarska camp?

23 A. I said that during the interrogation in the Omarska camp they did

24 not beat me, but they did beat me during the rest of the time I was in the

25 Omarska camp.

Page 3548

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Page 3549

1 Q. In what kind of circumstances were you beaten?

2 A. The beatings mostly took place when we went for lunch. We had to

3 pass through a line of guards who were the security guards of the Omarska

4 camp. We had to run by them, and usually they would put up obstacles,

5 either benches or some other objects, which we had to jump over to reach

6 the canteen or, rather, to get some food. So as we ran and jumped over

7 those obstacles, we would get blows at random from the guards forming that

8 line. It was almost impossible to avoid those blows.

9 On a number of occasions, I don't remember exactly how many times,

10 they organised our going to lunch in this way, and I would get blows all

11 over my body.

12 Q. When you were going to lunch, this was during the daylight hours?

13 A. Yes, it was always during daylight hours.

14 Q. These beatings that occurred during these daylight hours, where in

15 the camp? Was it inside a building or was it out on the pista area?

16 A. The beating as we went for lunch occurred in front of the entrance

17 to the administration building of the Omarska camp, that is, in front of

18 the entrance to the restaurant which was part of the administration

19 building.

20 Q. These types of beatings, did they occur throughout the time you

21 were held in Omarska?

22 A. Yes, throughout the time I was in Omarska.

23 Q. Did any of the camp personnel ever intervene to stop these

24 beatings?

25 A. No, I can't answer that question because I wasn't present when

Page 3550

1 they discussed their assignments during the day. But since the beatings

2 did not stop, the only conclusion I can make is that no one intervened

3 because the beatings continued.

4 Q. What kind of injuries did you sustain as a result of these

5 beatings?

6 A. The worst injury that I still feel the consequences of was my left

7 shoulder. The collarbone was cracked.

8 Q. As a result of these beatings, did you suffer any visible injuries

9 or bruising?

10 A. Yes. During my stay in Omarska, those bruises could be seen in

11 the kidney area and on my back. Of course they have now disappeared, but

12 I still feel pain in my left shoulder and in the area of my left kidney.

13 Q. Did you or any of the detainees about whom you have testified ever

14 receive any medical care for the injuries you received?

15 A. In the Omarska camp, there was absolutely no medical care or

16 treatment.

17 Q. To your knowledge, during the time you were detained in the

18 Omarska camp, did any group of detainees ever attack guards?

19 A. To my knowledge, that never occurred.

20 Q. To your knowledge, did any group of detainees ever try to break

21 out of the camp?

22 A. Not that I'm aware of. Not a single group ever tried to get out

23 of the camp.

24 Q. When were you taken from Omarska camp?

25 A. On the 6th of August, 1992.

Page 3551

1 Q. Where were you taken?

2 A. To the Manjaca camp.

3 Q. When you were taken to Keraterm and then Omarska, what was your

4 physical condition?

5 A. In the Keraterm camp, I was in good physical and mental

6 condition. When I left the Omarska camp, that is, on the 6th of August,

7 1992, I was at the end of my physical and mental abilities.

8 Q. Now, when did you leave Manjaca?

9 A. We left Manjaca in an organised manner on the 14th of December

10 that same year.

11 Q. During the time that you were held in Manjaca, was Manjaca camp

12 supervised by the ICRC?

13 A. Members of the International Red Cross supervised the Manjaca camp

14 from the 24th of August 1992 onwards.

15 Q. When did you leave Bosnia?

16 A. On the 28th of December, 1992.

17 Q. You testified earlier about property that you had in 1992 before

18 you were arrested. Has that property been restored to you?

19 A. No, my property was never restored to me.

20 Q. Have you ever been paid for the value of that property?

21 A. I was never paid any compensation.

22 Q. Can you tell the Court what long-term physical, emotional, or

23 psychological effects, if any, you have suffered because of the treatment

24 you received in Omarska?

25 A. I have already spoken about the physical consequences. I feel

Page 3552

1 pain in my left shoulder and left kidney. And psychologically, I feel the

2 effects particularly in the last two years in the form of images, details,

3 sounds, screams, moans, and all these appear in my dreams. And after such

4 dreams, it is very difficult to get back to normal, normal life, with your

5 family and your job.

6 Q. Sir, you have testified about a man known to you by the nickname

7 Krkan. Could you describe Krkan as you saw him in 1992?

8 A. I think I already mentioned that Krkan was always dressed in a

9 police uniform, a blue police uniform. He was armed with an automatic

10 rifle. He was a plumpish man which means that he had more kilos than he

11 should. He was overweight. His height was between -- was around 170

12 centimetres, between 165 and 170. I can't remember the colouring. He had

13 a round face, darkish hair. That's as much as I can say by way of

14 description.

15 Q. Sir, do you think that you would be able to identify Krkan today?

16 A. Of course it's eight years since I last saw him, but I could try.

17 Q. Sir, would you please look around the courtroom, and if you see

18 the person you knew as Krkan, would you please tell the Court where he is

19 in the courtroom and what he is wearing.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I be allowed to

21 get up and look around, standing.

22 Yes, I can identify him.

23 MS. HOLLIS:

24 Q. Sir, would you please tell the Court where he is seated and what

25 he's wearing.

Page 3553

1 A. I will show with my hand the policeman sitting to the right of the

2 door, Krkan is on his left-hand side. He is wearing a blue suit, a white

3 shirt, a tie with some whitish dots. I can't see any more than that.

4 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, I would note a positive identification

5 of Krkan. I have no further questions, Your Honour.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have one, Your Honour. May I say

7 a few more words about the men sitting in the immediate vicinity of Krkan.

8 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, if you like, I will lead the witness.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may continue.

10 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Krstan Simic.

12 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we object in view of

13 the fact that Ms. Hollis has clearly said that she has terminated the

14 examination, and I don't see how she can continue with the questions,

15 because the witness made this offer.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We are also very strict,

17 Mr. Krstan Simic. It is true that Ms. Hollis said that she had finished,

18 but we have not moved any further than that, so your objection is

19 overruled. And, Ms. Hollis, you may continue.

20 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. Sir, as you looked around the room and saw the man you identified

22 as Krkan, you have now indicated that you have information about other men

23 that you saw. Could you please tell Their Honours what it is that you

24 have -- what information it is that you have?

25 A. Of course I don't have any particular information. I have only my

Page 3554

1 recollection. I remember the man sitting on the left-hand side of Krkan.

2 He was in Omarska. He was a permanent member of the staff, of the

3 security staff in Omarska. I don't know his name and I don't know what

4 function he had in Omarska. That is what I wanted to say.

5 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

7 Ms. Hollis.

8 Mr. Simic, you may now proceed with the cross-examination. But

9 before you do that, could you please tell us what will be the order of

10 cross-examination?

11 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, bearing in mind the

12 fact that we have not managed to agree upon the order, we will follow the

13 order of the indictment. I'm sorry. Mr. Nikolic will be the last one to

14 do his questioning. As regards the others, they will follow the order of

15 the indictment.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness, you are now going to

17 answer questions that will be put to you by the Defence counsel.

18 Mr. Simic, you have the floor for your part of the

19 cross-examination.

20 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Cross-examined by Mr. K. Simic:

22 Q. Good morning, Mr. Strikovic.

23 A. Good morning.

24 Q. You have already heard that my name is Krstan Simic. I'm

25 representing the Defence here in this case, and I will have only a few

Page 3555

1 questions for you concerning the testimony that you gave yesterday and

2 today. You were asked questions about your arrival in Keraterm and

3 Omarska, and I shall stick to those two issues.

4 You said that on the 26th of May, 1992 you were arrested and taken

5 to Keraterm.

6 A. That is correct.

7 Q. Could you perhaps remember the time when it took place,

8 approximately?

9 A. Mr. Simic, of course I cannot tell you the exact hour and the

10 minute, but I can tell you the time of the day.

11 Q. Yes. When was it?

12 A. It was in the early afternoon hours, probably between 2.00 and

13 4.00 p.m.

14 Q. Thank you. In what manner were you transported to Keraterm?

15 A. I was transported from the police building in Prijedor to Keraterm

16 in a jeep, a type Niva. It was green in colour and there was some writing

17 on the vehicle, something to the effect that the vehicle belonged to the

18 iron ore mine of the Ljubija company. I was familiar with this type of

19 vehicle because it belonged to the company where I used to work. The

20 letters on the vehicle were "ROZR Ljubija."

21 Q. When you were arrested and during the transport, were you

22 handcuffed?

23 A. No, I was not handcuffed.

24 Q. The following night, that is, on the 27th of May, 1992, you were

25 transported to Omarska; is that correct?

Page 3556

1 A. I cannot quite follow your chronology. I spent one night in

2 Keraterm and I was transported to Omarska on the following night.

3 Q. Was that on the 27th, if you had been arrested on the 26th of May?

4 A. Yes, that is correct.

5 Q. Do you remember the number of buses containing detainees?

6 A. I cannot tell you the exact number. However, I'm sure about one

7 thing: There were at least ten buses.

8 Q. How many security personnel were there on your bus, the people who

9 escorted you?

10 A. As far as I can remember, there were three men in uniform under

11 arms who were providing security to the transport.

12 Q. On that occasion, were you or any other detainee handcuffed?

13 A. No, we were not handcuffed.

14 Q. Upon your arrival in the Omarska camp, you stated that some people

15 in uniform were there waiting for you.

16 A. Yes, that is correct.

17 Q. Could you describe for us their uniform?

18 A. Yes, I could do that. They were wearing blue camouflage uniforms;

19 that is what we called them, blue camouflage uniforms. And the policemen,

20 the men in uniform, were wearing also berets on their heads.

21 Q. What colour were the berets?

22 A. I can't remember that.

23 Q. Had you ever seen this same type of uniform before, the uniforms

24 that were worn by those individuals at that moment?

25 A. Mr. Simic, what do you mean by "before"?

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Page 3558

1 Q. Well, I mean before the events of 1992.

2 A. You mean before April 1992?

3 Q. Yes.

4 A. No, I had never seen such uniforms prior to April 1992.

5 Q. The individuals who were there waiting for you in May 1992, whom

6 you have just described, were they later on in the Omarska camp as members

7 of the security personnel?

8 A. Part of the security staff, that is, the guards who were providing

9 security to the camp, did not wear blue camouflage uniforms. The blue

10 camouflage uniforms would appear only from time to time in the camp.

11 Q. Thank you. In your testimony you mentioned a man by the name of

12 Ahil Dedic.

13 A. Yes, I did.

14 Q. But before that, could you tell us approximately what time it was

15 when you arrived in Omarska on the 27th of May?

16 A. Yes, I can tell you approximately what time it was. We arrived

17 between midnight and 1.00 or 2.00 a.m.

18 Q. In the room where you were put up, did you see Ahil Dedic there

19 upon your arrival, or did he arrive only later on?

20 A. Whether he had gotten off the bus before me or after me, I don't

21 remember that. However, I know that we were together in the room.

22 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Strikovic.

23 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] This concludes my

24 cross-examination.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Simic.

Page 3559

1 Mr. Toma Fila will now take the floor.

2 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I need a chair, Your Honour. Oh, it

3 seems that I do not.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Fila, you may proceed.

5 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

6 Cross-examined by Mr. Fila:

7 Q. Mr. Strikovic, my name is Toma Fila, I'm an attorney at law from

8 Belgrade, and together with my colleague, Mr. Jovanovic, I'm representing

9 Mladjo Radic in this case.

10 In your testimony yesterday, you mentioned that you had known

11 Krkan from before -- when I say "before," I'm referring to the period

12 before these unfortunate events -- and that you used to see him in Kozarac

13 wearing a police uniform, if I understood you correctly.

14 A. Yes, you did. But when I said that I knew him, I emphasised that

15 we did not have any personal contacts. I knew what he looked like, I knew

16 where he lived, I knew his marital status, I knew what he was doing, what

17 kind of job he had at the time, and so on.

18 Q. You also stated that you used to see him frequently.

19 A. When I said "frequently," I meant as often as it is enough for you

20 to know someone, to know where he lives, what he does. But I did not have

21 any personal contacts with him, I did not learn his situation from him

22 directly, and that is what I meant by "frequently."

23 Q. Where did he live? Did he have any family? Do you know where he

24 worked and do you know what his name was?

25 A. I don't know what his name was. I know what people called him.

Page 3560

1 They called him Krkan. He was married and he used to work at the police

2 station in Prijedor.

3 Q. In what year?

4 A. I don't know. I can't answer that question.

5 Q. For how long? How many years?

6 A. I don't know.

7 Q. Do you know in what year you saw him frequently enough for you to

8 know what you know?

9 A. I used to see him in 1990, 1991. That is what I can tell you.

10 Q. So during that period of time he used to work at the police

11 station in Prijedor.

12 A. Yes, he worked at the police station in Prijedor.

13 Q. You talked about your arrival in Omarska, and in response to a

14 question put to you by the Prosecutor, you said that you were familiar

15 with the organisation of the Omarska camp. What exactly did you mean by

16 that?

17 A. I was familiar with the organisation of the security system of the

18 Omarska camp. Of course nobody ever told me that, none of the organisers

19 of the security system in the Omarska camp. However, after a brief period

20 of time, it was perfectly clear to us what the organisation of the

21 security system was. The security was organised in three shifts and the

22 guards of those shifts used to work in 12-hour shifts. And I also knew

23 that the shifts were being brought in by bus. It was an FAP bus, a kind

24 of bus that is used for usual, everyday commuting. It had 45 seats, and

25 we all knew that because we could see it.

Page 3561

1 Q. So when you talked about the organisation of the work, you wanted

2 to say that it was organised in three shifts.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Was there any anything else that you knew about the organisation

5 of the camp aside from those shifts?

6 A. What I experienced directly were those three shifts.

7 Q. You stated further on that they worked in 12-hour shifts. When

8 exactly would they be changed, and do you know the number of guards per

9 shift?

10 A. The first shift would start working in the early morning hours,

11 7.00 or 8.00, I don't know exactly, and they would finish their shift in

12 the afternoon, between 7.00 and 8.00, and the next shift would come

13 thereafter and cover the period as of 7.00 or 8.00 p.m. until the morning,

14 the following morning, 7.00 or 8.00 a.m. I don't know how many people

15 were in each shift, but I guess it corresponded to the number of seats in

16 the bus.

17 Q. So they all worked in 12-hour shifts.

18 A. Yes, that is correct.

19 Q. You said that you used to see Krkan every other day. How is that

20 possible if the work was organised in three shifts?

21 A. For example, if one group was doing the morning shift, they would

22 be free for 24 hours, and they would come the following day. That is what

23 I meant by "every other day."

24 Q. So this is what you meant, every other day.

25 A. Well, that is according to my calculation.

Page 3562

1 Q. But you have no space for the third shift with that calculation of

2 yours. You said that you were familiar with the composition of each

3 shift. Whom did you know from Krkan's shift?

4 A. I knew all of them.

5 Q. Do you know their names?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Would you agree with me that as regards Krkan's shift, you didn't

8 know anybody else's name but Krkan's?

9 A. I knew Krkan from before, I knew his nickname. I knew the

10 nicknames of his guards but in the meantime I have forgotten them.

11 Perhaps I used to know their names but I no longer remember them. I

12 remember the faces because that is what we were able to remember best.

13 Q. Would you agree with me in the following: Of all the people who

14 were there, the only nickname you know is the nickname of Krkan; that is

15 the single nickname that you know from the security personnel of the

16 Omarska camp, the single name that you can remember today?

17 A. No, I would not agree with you.

18 Q. Well, let us hear you. Do you know any other name?

19 A. The nickname of Krkan is not the only thing that I know from

20 Omarska. I know other people as well. I know other nicknames.

21 Q. Which ones?

22 A. Well, I'm not prepared to speak here about faces and nicknames if

23 I'm not 100 per cent sure of them. I'm only talking about what I'm

24 perfectly certain of; that is, in respect of individuals whose names I can

25 link with nicknames. All the guards who used to work in the security

Page 3563

1 staff of the Omarska camp were familiar to me, I remember them, but it is

2 very difficult to identify them by their names and nicknames at this

3 moment.

4 Q. Let me ask you once again, and then after that I will not insist

5 any more. Could you at this point tell me any name, any nickname of the

6 individuals belonging to the security personnel of the camp?

7 A. Yes, I can. Drago Prcac, Momo, Uros, Dzajo, Kvocka. Do you want

8 me to say more? Is that enough?

9 Q. So you know others as well?

10 A. Yes, I do.

11 Q. What functions did they have?

12 A. They were members of the security staff of the Omarska camp.

13 Q. But that is all you know.

14 A. Yes, that is all I know.

15 Q. So there were two other shifts as well; is that correct?

16 A. Yes, it is.

17 Q. Could you tell us at least one name from any of the other two

18 shifts, except for Krkan's name, or a nickname?

19 A. I just told you a few names but I cannot surmise at this point.

20 Q. I never insist in life, and I'm not going to insist this time.

21 Please do not do this now.

22 A. No, I will not.

23 Q. You spoke about your stay in room number 15 and you talked about

24 the call-outs.

25 A. Yes, I did.

Page 3564

1 Q. Could you describe it for us? Who was it who called people out?

2 What was the procedure? I hope you understand me.

3 A. Yes, I understand you but I'm waiting for the interpreter to

4 finish. A guard who was in charge of the area of room number 15 and room

5 number 2, or the little room, and also room designated as B26 or 27, would

6 open the door and would call people by their names and surnames, and he

7 would take the individual in question out. And after that, he would close

8 the door.

9 Q. Can we therefore conclude that you were not able to see what

10 happened next?

11 A. Well, most of the time we couldn't see what happened next.

12 Q. I mean, who took the individual out, where the individual was

13 taken out. You couldn't see anything until such time as he was brought

14 back to the room.

15 A. Yes, that is correct.

16 Q. So you were always able to see the guard who would come to take

17 the person out.

18 A. In room number 15?

19 Q. Yes, that is the room I'm referring to.

20 A. Mr. Fila, I'm not interrupting you when you ask questions, so I

21 should kindly ask you not to interrupt me when I'm answering your

22 questions. In room number 15, we would always see the guard who called

23 detainees out and took them out. But in the big room, we were never able

24 to see the person calling out the names.

25 Q. That was my next question. How did you know which shift the

Page 3565

1 person who called out the name belonged to in the big room?

2 A. Because on that day we had been for lunch, because that day, going

3 for lunch or, rather, what was called lunch, we would see which shift was

4 on, because we knew the rotation system and which shift was next. Because

5 during that shift, as we went to the toilet, we would see the guards, and

6 on the basis of their appearance, we could come to the conclusion as to

7 which shift was on duty.

8 Q. You spoke about Silvije Saric. I'm sorry. Some places it's

9 written as Saric and other places as Sijic.

10 A. It's Saric.

11 Q. Did you see who called him out?

12 A. No, I did not.

13 Q. You said he was taken out twice, if I'm not mistaken, and beaten;

14 once less, once more. I may be wrong.

15 A. Silvije Saric, as far as I can remember, was returned beaten up.

16 Q. Did you see who took him out?

17 A. No, I did not.

18 Q. Can you tell us the date of when Silvije Saric was taken out?

19 A. I cannot tell you the exact date but I can give you a rough

20 estimate of the date. It was in the second half of June.

21 Q. What time of day could it have been?

22 A. It was night-time.

23 Q. In your earlier statement, you said it was between the 18th and

24 20th of June. Is that possible?

25 A. I said it was the second half of June just now.

Page 3566

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14 French and English transcripts.

15

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Page 3567

1 Q. Can you help us with a few other names of the people who were

2 taken out on that occasion?

3 A. You mean on that same day?

4 Q. Yes. Yes, that same night.

5 A. I cannot remember.

6 Q. Was Emir Karabasic taken out on that occasion?

7 A. Emir Karabasic was not taken out together with Silvije Saric.

8 Q. Something in the transcript is not quite clear. Did those

9 call-outs and the taking out of people take place only in Krkan's shift?

10 A. No.

11 Q. You mentioned Krkan's best man, Fazlic, who, as you said, was

12 given food by Krkan, and he told you something. Could you tell us exactly

13 what he told you? With respect to Krkan, of course.

14 A. He told me that Krkan was his best man. He told me that he gave

15 him some food. I really don't remember any more details about that

16 conversation with Fazlic, but I know for sure that that is what he said.

17 Q. Did he tell you anything more about who Krkan was, where he

18 worked, and so on?

19 A. He did mention Krkan's function, that he was the leader of one

20 shift. I think that would be all. I cannot recollect any more.

21 Q. When was Emir Karabasic taken out?

22 A. Of course, again, I cannot give you the exact date. I can say in

23 mid-June.

24 Q. But they didn't ask you in what shift he was taken out.

25 A. Is that a question?

Page 3568

1 Q. Yes.

2 A. As far as I know, Emir Karabasic was taken out in Krkan's shift.

3 Q. Because otherwise from your testimony, it would appear that only

4 he was not taken out during Krkan's shift, out of all the names you

5 mentioned.

6 Apart from him, Karabasic, Hrnjic -- were Hrnjic and Alic also

7 taken out?

8 A. Yes, they were.

9 Q. And in Krkan's shift of course, I assume.

10 A. Yes, in Krkan's shift.

11 Q. Did you see that, when Hrnjic and Alic were taken out, and

12 Karabasic?

13 A. I did see Karabasic being taken out.

14 Q. And the other two, Alic and Hrnjic, did you see?

15 A. No, I did not see Alic being taken out or Hrnjic.

16 Q. In one of your statement you said you didn't see Karabasic being

17 taken out either.

18 A. I saw him going out. I didn't see who took him out.

19 Q. You said, I would particularly like to mention an event that I did

20 not personally observe, and then he mentioned Karabasic.

21 A. Of course I didn't personally attend the torture, but I was

22 present when his name was called out and when he left the room.

23 Q. You spoke about the weapon that Krkan had. What about the other

24 security guards in his shift -- we're only talking about his shift now.

25 How were they armed?

Page 3569

1 A. With automatic and semi-automatic rifles.

2 Q. Was there any difference in the weapons they held?

3 A. Yes, in the kind of weapon.

4 Q. What type of weapon did he have?

5 A. Some carried an automatic rifle and some a semi-automatic rifle.

6 Q. Krkan had an automatic rifle, that's what you said.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And all the rest had semi-automatic, or some had automatic and

9 some had semi-automatic?

10 A. That's right.

11 Q. What's right?

12 A. They didn't all have the same weapon. They carried different

13 weapons. Some had semi-automatic rifles, some had automatic rifles.

14 Q. Let's make it quite clear. In Krkan's shift, apart from Krkan,

15 there were others with the same weapon as he had.

16 A. Yes, there were others who had an automatic rifle. I don't know

17 whether those automatic rifles were identical.

18 Q. Well, I don't know that either, but never mind. Were they wearing

19 the same uniform as he?

20 A. The guards in Krkan's shift wore an olive-grey uniform and Krkan

21 wore a blue police uniform.

22 Q. All of them?

23 A. As far as I remember, all of them.

24 Q. You mentioned Petrovdan, St. Peter's Day. Do you know what date

25 that is?

Page 3570

1 A. I do not.

2 Q. The fire that you talk about, was it on that same day, the day

3 after, the day before, two days before, or when?

4 A. I think it was the day prior to Petrovdan. I think. I'm not

5 sure.

6 Q. Or the night.

7 A. Yes, the night before, on the eve of.

8 Q. Sead Sivac was taken out twice, if I understood you correctly.

9 A. He was taken out twice while we were there together.

10 Q. The second time you said he was taken out in Krkan's shift.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And the first time?

13 A. I don't know.

14 Q. You don't know.

15 A. I don't know.

16 Q. Could he have been taken out in a shift other than Krkan's?

17 A. You've already asked me that question, and my answer was yes.

18 Q. Do you know which guard took Sivac out the first and the second

19 time?

20 A. The first time, I didn't know; the second time, I did. And I

21 still know.

22 Q. Can you tell us his name?

23 A. I can't tell you his name but I know what he looked like.

24 Q. You mentioned you saw Krkan in several places in Omarska. Did you

25 see him in the dining room sometimes?

Page 3571

1 A. I can't remember that.

2 Q. Did you see him perhaps in that small room with the glass, the

3 protruding "glass house," the protruding area, the staircase?

4 A. I apologise, sir.

5 Q. That administration building, and you see that there's a

6 staircase.

7 A. I know where the staircase is.

8 Q. Did you see him there?

9 A. Yes, I did see him there.

10 Q. What was he doing there?

11 A. Just passing by, going upstairs to the first floor of the

12 administration building.

13 Q. When you finished your meal, you would see a shift on duty there.

14 You'd go to eat, you'd come back, and you'd see the guards, and from that,

15 you concluded what would be the next shift and the one after that. After

16 you finished your meal, you would be shut up in room number 15.

17 A. No.

18 Q. No? What, then?

19 A. For a time we would stand in front of the so-called "white house"

20 until all the inmates of one room would finish their meal, and then all

21 together we would form a line, one by one, and we would enter the

22 particular room in which we were staying, number 15 or some other. So we

23 would spend some 20 minutes or so in the area in front of the "white

24 house."

25 Q. And then they would shut you up in that room. Who could you see

Page 3572

1 from inside? Could you see the change of shifts, for instance?

2 A. I told you a moment ago, I answered your question, we could see

3 individual guards.

4 Q. I'm talking about the change of guards.

5 A. No, we couldn't see the change of guards. We could only see

6 individual guards who watched over the areas that we had access to, and

7 they differed depending on where the detainees were held.

8 Q. Witness, I'm asking you personally. When you were in number 15

9 and then in the big room, what could you personally see after you were

10 shut up in the room?

11 A. After we were shut up in the room, after the door was closed of

12 number 15, we couldn't see anything. However, we were allowed to leave

13 number 15 individually, so doors were opened and then we could see the

14 guards in the hallway who were responsible for the area of number 15 and

15 the small room. And when we were in the big room, going to the toilet was

16 organised in such a way that prisoners went in groups of six or eight to

17 the toilet on the ground floor. That area was also covered or, rather,

18 secured by guards. So from number 15, we could see the guards who were

19 currently on duty, and from that know which shift was on duty as security

20 of the camp.

21 Q. When would you see the shift leaders?

22 A. I said in my testimony that I knew Krkan as a shift leader. I

23 would see him when we would be lined up, while I was in the big room. On

24 the ground floor of the hangar when we went for lunch. I would see him

25 when we were waiting in the area in front of the "white house" for the

Page 3573

1 other prisoners from our room to finish their meal. I would see him as we

2 went for lunch. I would see him while I was on the pista.

3 Q. I don't wish to interrupt you but that is not what I'm asking

4 you. I'm asking you once the door was closed, inside, did you see Krkan

5 then? That's what I'm trying to ask you, not while you were outside.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila, the witness has

7 answered that question. Please go on to another question.

8 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

9 Q. How could you know what mood Krkan was in when you were closed

10 inside?

11 A. By the appearance of his face.

12 Q. Could you see him?

13 A. We could see him.

14 Q. Where?

15 A. I just answered that.

16 Q. When you went for lunch or when you were lined up for lunch? I'm

17 asking you about night. You didn't go out for lunch at night.

18 A. No, but we would go to the toilet within the hangar.

19 Q. And then you saw him in the toilet, the shift leader?

20 A. No, we didn't see him in the toilet. We saw him in the hangar.

21 To reach the toilet you have to cross the hangar.

22 Q. Where would you see him?

23 A. I would see him standing in the hangar.

24 Q. Where?

25 A. Specifically next to the canal which was used for repairs of

Page 3574

1 mechanical equipment.

2 Q. At night, watching over you? What were you doing in the repair

3 shop?

4 A. We were just going to the toilet from the big room.

5 Q. So he was watching you going to the toilet.

6 A. No, he was watching over what was happening in the camp.

7 Q. Inside, from inside? How can he see through the wall?

8 A. Mr. Fila, perhaps it would be a good idea for you to look at the

9 model.

10 Q. You are closed inside.

11 A. Mr. Fila, you can't see. You don't know what it looks like.

12 Q. I wasn't there under your conditions, that is true. So he was

13 inside the hangar, near the workshop, and he was watching you.

14 A. He was watching the guards and us.

15 Q. In the night-time?

16 A. Yes, during the night.

17 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Just a moment, Your Honours.

18 Q. You used the toilet whenever you wanted?

19 A. No. In groups of six or eight.

20 Q. You were taken there by a guard?

21 A. The guard would permit us to go and come back, and the guards were

22 in front of the entrance to the big room and in front of the toilet. They

23 didn't escort us. They just supervised us.

24 Q. So the eight of you would go to the toilet and come back, and two

25 guards would stand watch in the immediate vicinity. So did Krkan watch

Page 3575

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13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the

14 French and English transcripts.

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22

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24

25

Page 3576

1 those two guards and your group going to the toilet?

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. Mr. Strikovic, do you have anything personal against Krkan,

4 anything personally against Krkan? Because that is the conclusion that I

5 make from your testimony. You don't know any other shifts. All the

6 take-outs took place in Krkan's shift --

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila, don't make any

8 conclusions. Just put your question and wait for the answer. Don't

9 argue.

10 A. I'm glad you asked me that question. How come we should remember

11 Krkan and only his name? Though that is not correct, your conclusion is

12 not correct. I understood your question very well, Mr. Fila.

13 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

14 Q. I asked you whether you personally had anything against

15 Mr. Krkan. That was my question. I mustn't ask you any further

16 questions.

17 A. I'm trying to answer your question. Mr. Fila, you were in the

18 Omarska camp, you just said that, but not under my conditions. You also

19 said that. Let me give you a very brief answer. If you had been there in

20 the same conditions as I, you too would only know his name and you would

21 certainly remember his name. That is my answer to your question.

22 Q. But in your statement, you said that he didn't hit you, that you

23 didn't see him beat anyone, you didn't see him kill anyone, that he didn't

24 hit you or beat you.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila, that is not a

Page 3577

1 question. That is a statement. You haven't asked a question. No, but

2 let's hear your question.

3 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Did you say that in your statement?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. In your statement, also you said that the whole situation in

7 Bosnia and the two camps, that Karadzic and Krkan were to blame for all of

8 this, were the most to blame. "If I were to make a list of those guilty,

9 there would be Radovan Karadzic, Meakic, and Krkan."

10 Did Krkan have such an important role in that camp to be listed

11 just after Karadzic?

12 A. Those are not emotions. Meakic and Krkan did have considerable

13 significance in that camp, and I and my compatriots, Bosniak Muslims, felt

14 the significance they had.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 A. You're welcome.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Fila.

18 Mr. Tosic.

19 MR. TOSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in view of the fact that

20 it is time for the break, our Defence team will not cross-examine

21 Mr. Strikovic. So that the Defence counsel for Mr. Simic and Mr. Nikolic

22 may cross-examine after the break, if that is acceptable. Anyway, we have

23 no questions, Your Honour. I'm sorry.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I wanted to tell you that you

25 have time for questions. The fact that we are having a break does not

Page 3578

1 prevent you from asking questions. You're not asking questions because

2 you have no questions; is that correct?

3 MR. TOSIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Jovan Simic.

5 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] We don't have any questions either,

6 Your Honour.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

8 Mr. Nikolic.

9 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] We have no questions for this

10 witness.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] That's fantastic. So we're

12 really going to have a break then. No, let's try and finish with this

13 witness before the break.

14 Ms. Hollis, have you any additional questions.

15 MS. HOLLIS: Very, very briefly, Your Honour.

16 Re-examined by Ms. Hollis:

17 Q. Mr. Strikovic, between April of 1992 and the day you were

18 arrested, did you ever see any personnel wearing these blue camouflage

19 uniforms?

20 A. From April 1992 until the 26th of May of that same year, I never

21 saw anyone wearing those blue camouflage uniforms.

22 Q. So the first time you saw those blue camouflage uniforms was upon

23 your arrival at Omarska camp?

24 A. Yes, that is so.

25 Q. Now, you testified that you were taken to Keraterm on the 26th and

Page 3579

1 that the following night you were taken to Omarska. So you were taken to

2 Omarska the night of the 27th and the early morning of the 28th of May; is

3 that correct?

4 A. Yes, that is correct.

5 Q. You indicated that you arrived at Omarska between midnight and

6 perhaps 2.00 in the morning; is that correct?

7 A. That's correct.

8 Q. So 1.00 or 2.00 in the morning of the 28th; is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 MS. HOLLIS: No further questions. Thank you.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Ms. Hollis.

12 Judge Fouad Riad, please.

13 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

14 Questioned by the Court:

15 JUDGE RIAD: Good morning, Mr. Strikovic. Can you hear me?

16 A. Good morning. Yes, I can.

17 JUDGE RIAD: I just have some brief questions requiring brief

18 answers to complete the picture you tried to give us.

19 Why were some people selected in particular to be beaten

20 or tortured, and came back, as you said, not being able to walk. You were

21 not, apparently, among them. Was it left to the whim of the leaders of

22 the shift or of the guards to choose anyone, or were there lists coming

23 with orders from above? Could you gather that when you were there?

24 A. Yes, I could gather. At first, on the 26th of May, when the camp

25 was in the process of formation, people were taken out mostly who had

Page 3580

1 authority among the Muslim people, people who were respected and the

2 people who were well-off, people who were really well-off. Prijedor is

3 not large and Kozarac still smaller for us not to know how people stood

4 financially, especially those who were above average in terms of wealth.

5 So the answer to your question is that the methodology of the

6 taking out of people, beating and torturing them, in my view, was

7 preconceived. At first people were taken out who had some authority among

8 the Muslims and those who were well-off, who had an enviable material

9 possession.

10 JUDGE RIAD: You said that people who had authority or wealth.

11 But it was nothing to do with their political stand in this war. I mean,

12 there were particularly leaders of the struggle, of the fighting of the

13 Muslims, militarily speaking?

14 A. Your Honour, you asked me whether some of the people who were

15 detained in Omarska were leaders of the Muslims' struggle, if I understand

16 you correctly.

17 JUDGE RIAD: Fighters, let us say.

18 A. Your Honour, at that moment there were no organised military units

19 of Bosniaks, Muslims, who would be ready to resist the Serb aggression on

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Therefore, there were no military leaders either,

21 there were no soldiers, because there were no organised military units.

22 There were only politicians.

23 JUDGE RIAD: For instance, you mentioned that when you arrived

24 with Ahil in room A9, he was abused by Cigo, and he hit him with his rifle

25 and he bled to death. Now, is that a guard would choose him at random, or

Page 3581

1 he was already selected, as you said, for being one of the elite or

2 wealthy people? What was the criterion? Why did they choose others? Was

3 it meant to be addressed, taking people by layers, the higher ones, as you

4 said, the elite, and then the lower ones, or was it just a matter of, as

5 you said, mood?

6 A. At first they selected the elite, which means the people who were

7 respected among the Muslims and who were wealthy. You asked me

8 specifically for Ahil. Ahil's case was an exception. That night, the

9 first night in Omarska, probably in a state of mental unrest or

10 instability, he started yelling "This is Bosnia. This will never be

11 Serbia" very loudly, and the reaction to these cries and this behaviour I

12 have already described when I described the incident.

13 JUDGE RIAD: Now, going to the people who were taken out during

14 Krkan's shift, according to this, they would have been taken out in any

15 other shift, or would it also be dependent on the mood of the head of the

16 shift, in your opinion?

17 A. I think the mood of the shift leader was not the exclusive reason

18 for the selection and number of people being taken out. I have already

19 said that the system of taking out people and the disappearance of men was

20 not incidental. People of repute and wealthy people were taken out, the

21 elite of our people. As more time was spent in the camp, this logic lost

22 such importance, and with time it was lost. So towards the end, when we

23 entered the second or third month, this logic or this system of

24 mistreatment of people had no logic to it at all.

25 JUDGE RIAD: So it was for any guard to beat anybody, or for any

Page 3582

1 other shift to select anybody?

2 A. Yes.

3 JUDGE RIAD: Now, give us just more of a description of this big

4 fire you saw in front of the "white house" on St. Peter's Day, the

5 Petrovdan feast. It looked like people moving around in screams of pain.

6 Did you see something more? You said it was not a celebration,

7 apparently, it was not a red Indian feast. But were these people in

8 pain? Why? Were they being beaten? Why were they crying and screaming

9 in pain? Did you notice something more, something more clearly?

10 A. Of course I didn't spend too much time at the opening which was

11 like a window, but it was more a ventilation opening, at the toilet on the

12 first floor, or rather the bathroom. I didn't see anything in greater

13 detail. I just glanced out shortly. It was a fire. All I know is it was

14 a big fire and I saw people moving around that fire. I can also claim

15 that those people were just dressed in normal clothes. So it was just a

16 short glance. I can't tell you how long it lasted but it was short, so I

17 can't give you any more details. The cries were cries of pain. I didn't

18 see, I was not in a position to see whether people were tortured,

19 mistreated, or any other form of abuse of people.

20 JUDGE RIAD: But there were screams, you said. You heard

21 screams.

22 A. Yes, I heard screams. That is what we could hear.

23 JUDGE RIAD: Now, speaking of the meals, did you have enough time

24 to have meals in light of what you described, having to jump and being

25 beaten? Was there enough time to eat? And how many times a day did you

Page 3583

1 do that?

2 A. A very modest meal was given once a day. Twenty men, I think it

3 was 20, had to eat within three minutes, so the time was very short. The

4 food, the meal was very modest and of poor quality, and we had three

5 minutes.

6 JUDGE RIAD: Now, my last question. You mentioned that your

7 friend Fazlic had some kind of privilege and he could have an extra meal

8 because he was the best man in marriage for Mr. Krkan. So some people

9 were privileged? You mean Mr. Krkan or others could give better treatment

10 to others and worse treatment to different people? There was some kind

11 of -- they were strong enough and powerful enough to treat some people

12 privileged, and some people could be tortured; is that what you saw, or

13 what I understood?

14 A. Yes.

15 JUDGE RIAD: And you were in which group, in your opinion?

16 A. I think I was an anonymity.

17 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Judge Fouad

19 Riad.

20 Madam Judge Wald.

21 JUDGE WALD: Mr. Strikovic, just basically two questions.

22 As to the first incident you told us about when Cigo beat up on

23 Ahil, were there any regular guards around? You said Cigo was not

24 somebody you saw as a regular part of the regular security force there.

25 But when he did come into the room and beat Ahil, were there any regular

Page 3584

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Page 3585

1 guards who were present either in the corridor or in the room at that

2 time? Were there any members of the regular security force who were there

3 when it happened?

4 A. While Cigo was beating Ahil, he was alone. There was no one else

5 there. Whether in the corridor, next to the room, there were any other

6 guards, regular or other, I cannot tell you. I don't know.

7 JUDGE WALD: You also said that when Ahil appeared to be

8 unconscious, that he, Cigo, dragged the body out of the room. Did he do

9 that alone? Was it just he who dragged the body out of the room? Did

10 anybody help him?

11 A. Cigo came back alone and he alone dragged out Ahil's body.

12 JUDGE WALD: Okay. My second question deals with your earlier

13 statements that the detainees feared Krkan's shift. You used the word

14 "feared" there. Can you tell me, based on your own impressions or what

15 you heard from the detainees, was this special fear for Krkan's shift,

16 since you also said that you never saw him personally abuse anybody, was

17 it based on just the fact that the guards on his shift were more likely to

18 abuse prisoners, or was it based on an impression that he did less to stop

19 them or even something to encourage them to behave that way? In other

20 words, you talked about how they said, "What was Krkan's mood that night?

21 Have you seen him? What does he look like?" How did the detainees relate

22 the fact that they thought more bad things happened on his shift to him

23 personally?

24 A. Of course, this is what we assumed, this is what I assumed. We

25 didn't know that exactly. We didn't know what the orders were; we didn't

Page 3586

1 know who exactly would be tortured or taken out. Those were simply our

2 assumptions, our opinion on the situation. It is true, and the fact

3 remains that we were in greatest fear when Krkan's shift was on duty, and

4 that fear was based on the fact that the guards from Krkan's shift were

5 inclined to beat people, to torture people, to take them out, but also on

6 the fact that this leader of the shift was in the situation to issue

7 orders concerning activities of his guards. So it went both ways. That

8 was our reasoning at the time.

9 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Strikovic, I have two

11 questions for you.

12 After a while in the Omarska camp, you were able to form certain

13 ideas about the way the work was organised in the camp. Was it possible

14 to anticipate, to foretell what would happen when a guard would come to a

15 group of prisoners? In other words, when a guard would call out a

16 prisoner's name, were you able to foresee, were you able to tell what

17 might happen?

18 A. Of course we were, and this was based on the facts, on the events

19 that were taking place all the time. After a person would be called out

20 and taken out, only one thing could happen. The people who had been

21 called out would come back beaten up, and the second thing that happened,

22 the other thing that happened was that they never came back.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Before a guard would call a

24 person's name, was it possible for you to anticipate who would be the

25 individual that would be next called out?

Page 3587

1 A. No.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Here's my second question for

3 you, Witness: Is there anything that you would like to say, anything that

4 you haven't been asked and anything you haven't had the opportunity to

5 say, generally speaking.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I suppose if I have something to say

7 concerning the Omarska camp?

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Do you wish to make a

9 statement as a person who has experienced it personally.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it is very difficult to

11 speak because I'm restricted with time. It's very difficult to speak here

12 before you. There is a lot to be said about camps, Omarska, Keraterm,

13 Manjaca. I personally believe it is a very long story and it is a very

14 complex subject matter which needs to be discussed in depth. So at the

15 moment, I do not have anything to add or state personally.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Strikovic, this is, then,

17 the end of your testimony before the Tribunal. Thank you very much for

18 coming here. We wish you a pleasant journey to your place of residence.

19 We hope that you will do all that is possible for you as an individual to

20 do so that these things might never happen again.

21 Let me ask the usher to take you out of the courtroom. Thank you

22 once again.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.

24 [The witness withdrew]

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Hollis, I don't have my

Page 3588

1 notes here with me. Is there anything that has to be taken care of in

2 terms of exhibits?

3 MS. HOLLIS: No, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No. Very well, then. Thank

5 you.

6 We will now have a half-hour break.

7 --- Recess taken at 11.14 a.m.

8 --- On resuming at 11.47 a.m.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The accused may be seated.

10 Thank you.

11 Good morning, Witness. Can you hear me? Could you please read

12 the solemn declaration now.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

14 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

15 WITNESS: WITNESS Y

16 [Witness answered through interpreter]

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated now. Are you

18 comfortable? Please approach the microphone. Is it okay now? Very well,

19 then.

20 I was not told that Mr. Saxon would be conducting the

21 examination-in-chief, but it seems to be the case; am I right?

22 MR. SAXON: That's correct, Your Honour. Thank you.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

24 Before we proceed, Mr. Usher, could you please show the witness a

25 piece of paper, actually this piece of paper. I should like to ask the

Page 3589

1 witness to have a look at the piece of paper and to tell us whether it

2 contains his name by simply saying yes or no.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. Thank you.

5 Mr. Saxon, you may proceed with the examination. You have the

6 floor.

7 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour. I would just like to confirm

8 at this time that we are in private session.

9 [Private session]

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

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21 (redacted)

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25 (redacted)

Page 3590

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Page 3600

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 [Open session]

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We are in open session now. You

6 may continue.

7 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. Witness Y, how long were you detained in the Keraterm camp?

9 A. Twelve days.

10 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, at this time I have copies of a

11 photograph which has already been admitted into evidence as 3/34, and if I

12 may ask the usher to place one by the witness. And I have copies for the

13 Defence and the Court as well.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon, what will be the

15 exhibit number?

16 MR. SAXON: This will not need to be marked, Your Honour. I'm not

17 going to ask the witness to annotate it.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you. So then we don't

19 need copies for the Judges or the Defence. We can follow on the ELMO.

20 MR. SAXON: At your discretion, yes, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] If you are not going to have

22 anything annotated, it is not necessary because we already know the

23 photograph and we can follow by watching on the ELMO. In any event, thank

24 you. I think that the Defence agrees with that; I see them nodding. So

25 you may continue.

Page 3601

1 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Q. Witness Y, can you take a look at the photograph that's been

3 placed on the machine next to you. Do you recognise what's depicted on

4 that photograph?

5 A. On this photograph we see the former Keraterm factory.

6 Q. Thank you. Could you simply point out the room where you were

7 held or, rather, perhaps, the entrance to the room where you were held at

8 the Keraterm camp?

9 A. [Indicates]

10 Q. Thank you. What was the number of that room at Keraterm?

11 A. Number 4.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 MR. SAXON: If that photograph would be removed now. Thank you.

14 Q. Witness Y, when were you first fed after your arrival at the

15 Keraterm camp?

16 A. The first time, after 48 hours.

17 Q. How often were you fed after that?

18 A. Once in 24 hours.

19 Q. What was the quality of the food there?

20 A. Dreadful.

21 Q. Were you provided with water?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. How would you get water at the Keraterm camp?

24 A. A truck with a reservoir arrived once a day and we could pour the

25 water into plastic bottles and use the water from that bottle throughout

Page 3602

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Page 3603

1 the day.

2 Q. What were the conditions like in room number 4, in the room where

3 you were held?

4 A. The room in which we were held, the conditions were awful. The

5 floor was concrete. Some inmates were allowed to bring in wooden

6 palettes. They would be piled one on top of another. So one couldn't

7 pass through the room, and still less, rest or sleep.

8 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, at this time I would like to pass some

9 copies to the usher, and if one of these could be marked as Exhibit 3/108,

10 and the copies distributed. Your Honour, this is the legend of a model of

11 the Keraterm camp which has been constructed by the Prosecution and which

12 is currently contained in the evidence vault here in the Tribunal. I've

13 brought with me several photographs of that model which I would like to

14 show to the witness.

15 The usher does not need to provide the legend to the witness. In

16 fact, I would ask him to remove it.

17 Copies of the legend and the photographs of the model of the

18 Keraterm camp have already been provided to the Defence, Your Honour.

19 I have a photograph which I'd ask be marked as 3/108, and if one

20 copy of that photograph could be placed on the ELMO, please.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Perhaps, Mr. Saxon, this exhibit

22 should be 3/109.

23 MR. SAXON: That's correct, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Because you said the legend was

25 108.

Page 3604

1 MR. SAXON: I stand corrected.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So the photograph will be marked

3 as 3/109.

4 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. Witness Y, if you could take a look at the photograph that's now

6 on your right-hand side, placed on the ELMO. Do you recognise what is

7 depicted on that photograph?

8 A. This photograph shows a model of the Keraterm camp.

9 Q. If you could please simply, again, indicate with the pointer the

10 entrance to room 4 where you were held.

11 A. [Indicates]

12 Q. Thank you very much.

13 MR. SAXON: If that photograph could be removed now.

14 Your Honour, again if I could impose on the usher to hand over a

15 series of copies of a photograph which could be marked as 3/110.

16 Q. Witness Y, could you take a look at this photograph, please, and

17 could you indicate where on that photograph is room 4, the room where you

18 were detained at Keraterm.

19 A. [Indicates]

20 Q. You just pointed to a particular spot on that room. What is that

21 structure that appears in the photograph at the doorway?

22 A. It's a small corridor which divided room number 4 into two. It's

23 about three and a half metres long and about 180 centimetres wide, and it

24 went halfway.

25 Q. What are the letters that you see listed or placed on the room

Page 3605

1 that you've just indicated was room number 4?

2 A. DD.

3 Q. Could you please take up a pen, or you can have mine if you need

4 one, and write the letter "Y" by the spot where you stayed in that room.

5 A. [Marks]

6 Q. Thank you. Witness Y, how would you describe the general

7 treatment of detainees in that room -- excuse me, in the Keraterm camp?

8 A. In my opinion, normal people do not treat animals in such a way.

9 Q. Could you be more specific, please?

10 A. The treatment and the way in which we were held in the camp is

11 inconceivable, something awful, unimaginable.

12 Q. When you talk about treatment that was awful or inconceivable,

13 what kind of treatment are you referring to?

14 A. We were starved. We didn't even get water regularly. We couldn't

15 leave the room all day long. Once during the day, five men at a time, or

16 rather one man could go to the toilet once a day. So every 15 minutes,

17 five men would form a line and go to the toilet and come back, under

18 escort of the guard.

19 Q. How frequently, if at all, were detainees abused while you were at

20 Keraterm?

21 A. Very frequently. In the course of the day, much less than during

22 the night.

23 Q. You marked the letter "Y" on a spot on that photograph at the room

24 DD. Were you at that spot during your entire time while you were detained

25 in Keraterm or only during the first few days?

Page 3606

1 A. The first few days. Three or four days I was there.

2 Q. I'd like to direct your attention to the second day that you were

3 in Keraterm. In the evening or the night of that day, do you recall

4 hearing a vehicle approach?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. At that time, were you again positioned in the hallway there, the

7 corridor close to the door of room 4?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What could you see from that position?

10 A. I couldn't see anything, actually.

11 Q. What reflections, if any, could you see at that time?

12 A. Oh, yes. Yes, I could see the reflection of the headlights of the

13 vehicle. At the level of the window, these reflections appeared on the

14 ceiling.

15 Q. What, if anything, had other prisoners at Keraterm told you about

16 people coming into the camp at night?

17 A. Yes. They said, "Ziga and Duca are coming again to kill."

18 Q. What happened, if anything, after you saw those lights reflected

19 on the ceiling?

20 A. Yes. Shortly after I saw the lights, Mr. Drago Tokmadzic was

21 called out.

22 Q. Was this the same Drago Tokmadzic that was a policeman in Ljubija,

23 that you knew before the spring of 1992?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Was he then detained in the Keraterm camp?

Page 3607

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What happened when Mr. Tokmadzic was taken out?

3 A. They took Mr. Tokmadzic out and I heard loud and clear the order,

4 "Take off your T-shirt." And immediately after that I heard blunt blows

5 and the moans of Mr. Drago.

6 Q. You say you heard blunt blows. How many blows did you hear?

7 A. From the moment I started counting, I counted up to 180 blows.

8 Q. Could you see what was going on outside the room at the time?

9 A. No. The room?

10 Q. Yes, outside the room.

11 A. In the room, there was just fear.

12 Q. But my question was, could you see what was going on outside the

13 room?

14 A. Outside the room, no.

15 Q. As you heard the sounds of blows and a beating, what else, if

16 anything, did you hear?

17 A. Various curses, and also the sentence, "You've killed a Serb

18 child."

19 Q. When, if ever, did you hear the sound of water during that time?

20 A. Yes, after several blows, about 50 or 60 approximately, there were

21 cries, "Shove him in the barrel for him to come too."

22 Q. When you use the term "barrel," was there a barrel located close

23 to the entrance of room 4?

24 A. Yes, there was a barrel with 50 or 100 litres of water. It was

25 blue in colour.

Page 3608

1 Q. When, if ever, did you hear the sound of water at that time?

2 A. Yes. After these cries, "Throw him in the barrel," I heard the

3 water splashing and again Mr. Drago's moans, and the blows continued.

4 Q. Could you indicate on the photograph that's to your right

5 approximately where this barrel was located?

6 A. The barrel was to the left, looking from the entrance. On the

7 left-hand side from the entrance to room number 4.

8 Q. Thank you. Perhaps to differentiate, Witness Y, perhaps you could

9 put a "Y1" at that spot to indicate the barrel.

10 A. [Marks]

11 Q. What, if anything, did you hear the guards ask Drago Tokmadzic?

12 A. Then they asked him if there were any other policemen in addition

13 to him in the camp.

14 Q. What, if anything, did Drago Tokmadzic respond?

15 A. Well, he still had some force. He mentioned the name of Esad

16 Islamovic.

17 Q. Prior to the armed conflict in 1992, did you know Esad Islamovic?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. What was Esad Islamovic's occupation?

20 A. Esad Islamovic was a policeman.

21 Q. Where did he work?

22 A. He worked in Prijedor until the beginning of the conflict.

23 Q. What was the ethnicity of Esad Islamovic?

24 A. He was a Muslim.

25 Q. After Drago Tokmadzic said the name Esad Islamovic, what happened

Page 3609

1 then?

2 A. Then Mr. Esad Islamovic was called out.

3 Q. After Mr. Esad Islamovic was called out, what, if anything, did

4 you hear?

5 A. Again I heard blows and moans, screams, unbelievable screams.

6 Q. When you say that these gentlemen were called out, were they

7 called out of room 4, the room where you were confined?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. When you say that you heard screams, were these screams of

10 happiness or screams of pain?

11 A. Screams of pain.

12 Q. What happened then?

13 A. After some time, around 11.00, Drago Tokmadzic -- actually, Drago

14 Tokmadzic was called around 11.00, and then around 1.00 a.m., other men

15 were called out to bring in the other two.

16 Q. Did those men go out and bring back Drago Tokmadzic and Esad

17 Islamovic?

18 A. At the beginning nobody dared open the door and go outside. Then

19 one of the people wearing masks and black gloves entered the room, and he

20 picked up four men who were near the entrance and he took them out.

21 Q. And eventually did those men return to the room?

22 A. Yes. They also received blows. One of these young men had a

23 fractured nose. And they brought in Mr. Drago Tokmadzic and Esad

24 Islamovic.

25 Q. After Drago Tokmadzic and Esad Islamovic were brought back inside

Page 3610

1 the room, did you hear an argument going on outside that room?

2 A. Yes. One of the four men who had been taken out to bring in Drago

3 and Esad was moaning and crying. He was shouting, "Kajin. Kajin." Then

4 an argument occurred. They were saying, "You're not going to do as you

5 please. You will not be allowed into the camp any more," and something to

6 that effect.

7 Q. So this occurred before Drago Tokmadzic and Esad Islamovic were

8 finally brought back into room 4; is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. When Drago Tokmadzic and Esad Islamovic were brought back into

11 room 4, what, if anything, did you notice about their condition?

12 A. Drago Tokmadzic was unconscious, he was motionless; whereas Esad

13 Islamovic could move, but his hand was broken and both his eyes were

14 completely closed with bruises and swellings around them, and the fingers

15 of both his hands were broken.

16 Q. Did Drago Tokmadzic survive that beating?

17 A. No. Fifteen minutes after he had been taken in, brought back to

18 the room, Drago died.

19 Q. Did you see his body after that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. When was that?

22 A. Well, I could see his body all the time when he was thrown into

23 the room, and it remained there until the next morning, until dawn.

24 Q. At dawn the next morning, were you able to observe the body of

25 Drago Tokmadzic?

Page 3611

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Page 3612

1 A. Yes. The body was stiff and rather cold. At that point some

2 people took the body of Drago Tokmadzic and put it into some kind of

3 wheelbarrow, and they carted him away behind a building of the Keraterm

4 compound.

5 Q. Regarding the detainees who had to go out and bring Drago

6 Tokmadzic and Esad Islamovic back into room 4, what did you notice about

7 the condition of those men when they came back into room 4?

8 A. Those men had received a couple of blows. One of them had a

9 fractured nose.

10 Q. Thank you. Witness Y, did you ever see dead bodies piled up at

11 the Keraterm camp?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Did you ever see other bodies at the Keraterm camp besides the

14 body of Drago Tokmadzic?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Where did you see that body or bodies?

17 A. The first day of my arrival in the camp, Mr. Jovo Radocaj was

18 killed on that first night.

19 Q. And besides -- did you see Mr. Jovo, was it Radocaj or Radokaj?

20 A. Radocaj.

21 Q. Thank you. Were you able to observe the body of Mr. Radocaj?

22 A. Yes. Mr. Jovo Radocaj died in my arms.

23 Q. Did you have occasion to see any other dead bodies while you were

24 in the Keraterm camp?

25 A. Yes. Two or three days after Drago Tokmadzic, all Albanians who

Page 3613

1 were in the camp were called out.

2 Q. My question was, did you have occasion to see other dead bodies in

3 the camp?

4 A. Well, the Albanians that were called out were beaten up. One of

5 the Albanians was returned to our room, and eight days later he died. He

6 spent those eight days vomiting some yellowish liquid mixed with blood.

7 He was dying for eight days.

8 Q. When people died at the Keraterm camp, where were their bodies

9 taken?

10 A. Most of the cases they would be taken away in a kind of

11 wheelbarrow and put behind a building in the Keraterm facility, and what

12 happened next, I don't know.

13 Q. Witness Y, I'd like to draw your attention to the 4th of July,

14 1992. Do you recall a list being made of all people from the Ljubija area

15 or Donja Ljubija while you were at the Keraterm camp?

16 A. Yes, a list was made. It was told that all residents of my

17 village should be registered and their names put on a list so that we

18 could be taken to a place at the local stadium, so that our wives could

19 come and visit us.

20 Q. After that list was made, were you taken to the Omarska camp by

21 bus?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Approximately how many men were transported with you to the

24 Omarska camp?

25 A. There were two buses carrying 105, 106 people.

Page 3614

1 Q. Did you know the drivers of those buses?

2 A. Yes. The drivers were from the Autotransport transport company

3 from Prijedor.

4 Q. What happened when your bus arrived at the Omarska camp and the

5 prisoners got off the buses?

6 A. We were lined up in two or three rows, and again a list was made

7 of the newly arrived detainees.

8 Q. What happened after that?

9 A. After that we were put up in a rather small room referred to as

10 the garage. We spent more than half a day there.

11 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, at this time if the witness could be

12 shown Exhibit 3/77A, please, and perhaps this photograph could now be

13 removed from the ELMO.

14 Q. Witness Y, what building was the garage in? You mentioned you

15 were held in a garage.

16 A. A1.

17 Q. What was the building called where that garage was located?

18 A. It was the administration building, together with the kitchen. It

19 was all one part.

20 Q. How long were you held in the Omarska camp?

21 A. For 32 days.

22 Q. During those 32 days, did you become familiar with an area in the

23 restaurant building called the "glass house"?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Could you indicate with the pointer the number of the area known

Page 3615

1 as the "glass house" on that diagram?

2 A. [Indicates]

3 Q. What number is that?

4 A. A14.

5 Q. Thank you. Witness Y, after you were held in the garage for a

6 period of time, were you then separated into two groups?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Where was your group taken?

9 A. The group containing 45 men was transferred to the small rooms

10 which were situated above the hangar.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MR. SAXON: If the usher could now remove that exhibit, and if

13 Exhibit 3/77D could be placed on the ELMO, please.

14 Q. Witness Y, could you take a look at that diagram that's on the

15 projector, and could you indicate, please, the room where you were held in

16 the hangar.

17 A. Room B4. B4.

18 Q. Witness Y, did the guards use any of those rooms on the first

19 floor of the hangar?

20 A. Yes. The guards were across the room number 4.

21 Q. I'm sorry. Just to be clear, were the guards in room B4 or across

22 from room B4?

23 A. Across from room B4.

24 Q. What room number is that, please?

25 A. B27.

Page 3616

1 Q. What did the guards use room B27 for, Witness Y?

2 A. Well, that is where they used to sit most of the time, in room

3 B27.

4 Q. Witness Y, how long were you held in that room on the first floor

5 of the hangar?

6 A. For three days.

7 Q. Were you interrogated after those three days?

8 A. No, I was not interrogated the first three days.

9 Q. I'm sorry. My question was, after those three days in which you

10 were held in room B4 in the hangar building, were you then interrogated?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Where did this interrogation take place?

13 A. In the rooms situated above the kitchen.

14 Q. What building is that?

15 A. That is the building containing both offices and the kitchen.

16 Q. And then where were you held after your interrogation?

17 A. After that I was sent to the pista.

18 Q. How much time were you held on the pista?

19 A. Fifteen days, approximately.

20 Q. After you were held on the pista, where were you held?

21 A. After that about 700 people were transferred to the hangar, which

22 had been cleared up and fenced in with a wire fence.

23 Q. What floor of the hangar building were you transferred to?

24 A. To the ground floor of the hangar.

25 Q. How long were you held on the ground floor of the hangar building?

Page 3617

1 A. Until we were called out to go to Manjaca.

2 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, if I could ask the usher to remove

3 Exhibit 3/77D and place Exhibit 3/77C on the ELMO, please.

4 Q. Witness Y, if you could take a look at the diagram that's been

5 placed on the projector, and could you indicate with the pointer where on

6 the ground floor of the hangar building you were held.

7 A. In this area here marked as A1.

8 Q. Was that area surrounded by anything?

9 A. Yes, it was surrounded with barbed wire on two sides.

10 Q. Was there an area there for toilets for the detainees?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Where were the toilets?

13 A. These two rooms, A12 and A13.

14 Q. Were detainees ever abused when they went to the toilets?

15 A. Yes, almost every time.

16 Q. How were they abused?

17 A. In the toilet, mostly somebody would wait for them if they came

18 individually, one by one, and then they would be beaten up.

19 Q. When you say "somebody would wait for them," who are you referring

20 to?

21 A. The guards would wait for them and they would beat them up.

22 Q. To avoid these beatings, what, if anything, would detainees do if

23 they needed to go to the toilet?

24 A. Well, out of fear they didn't go to the toilet. They preferred to

25 relieve themselves on themselves, in their pants.

Page 3618

1 Q. When the detainees relieved themselves in their pants, where would

2 they be?

3 A. Well, they were with us in the hangar building, and it was

4 terrible. There was such a terrible stench. People had lice. People

5 were sick. Half of the men had been badly beaten up.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, would this be an appropriate time to take

8 a break?

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, you are right, this would

10 be a convenient time. We are going to work until 2.30 today, so we will

11 have a half-hour break now.

12 --- Recess taken at 12.57 p.m.

13 --- On resuming at 1.36 p.m.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated while waiting

15 for Mr. Radic.

16 Mr. Jovan Simic, I see that you want to say something.

17 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I just wanted to

18 request, if possible, because of the eyes of my client and he has certain

19 problems with these new glasses which cause him a headache, if the lights

20 could be dimmed a little bit, if that is possible, of course, and

21 acceptable to you. But we were told by the technical department that we

22 had to make this request to you. Thank you, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You need to make a request to

24 the Chamber to dim the lights; is that true? Is that possible, Madam

25 Registrar, to undertake this step immediately?

Page 3619

1 THE REGISTRAR: If this is the case, we have to dim all the lights

2 in this courtroom. And as well, the video booth didn't have any contact

3 with Defence counsel either.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Let's try and do it to see the

5 effect, but do not switch off the lights altogether.

6 Is that better now? Actually, we don't need such very strong

7 lights. I think we can all see one another.

8 Can you dim them a little more, please? Did the booth hear me? I

9 asked for the lights to be lowered a little more, please. Yes. Very

10 well. There we are. That is good, isn't it? We don't need to have such

11 strong lights. I think it is better for all of us like this. Is that

12 better now?

13 Mr. Saxon, now that we have better working conditions, let us

14 proceed.

15 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. Witness Y, turning to the subject of guards and guard shifts at

17 the Omarska camp, did you ever observe any guard posts at the Omarska

18 camp?

19 A. Yes.

20 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, at this time if the usher could remove

21 Exhibit 3/77C and place the copy of Exhibit 3/82 on the ELMO, I would be

22 grateful.

23 Q. Witness Y, could you take a look at the photograph that's been

24 placed on the projector, and with the pointer could you indicate where you

25 observed guard posts at the Omarska camp.

Page 3620

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Page 3621

1 A. Here, on this spot where there was a makeshift guard post, covered

2 with canvas.

3 MR. SAXON: Can the record please reflect that is a position in

4 front of the restaurant building.

5 Q. Where else did you note guard posts?

6 A. On the roof, above the entrance to the kitchen, there was an M-53

7 machine-gun with a full box of ammunition, and there was a man manning it

8 there always.

9 Q. Could you point out with the pointer where that person with the

10 machine-gun was.

11 A. [Indicates]

12 Q. Thank you. And where else?

13 A. Here, behind there was the petrol station, and there was another

14 guard post there.

15 Q. So that is a spot on that photograph close to one end of the

16 hangar building; is that true?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Where else?

19 A. Approximately here, at the entrance next to the kitchen. But you

20 cannot see that spot on this photograph.

21 Q. All right. And where else?

22 A. I don't remember any others.

23 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, if that exhibit could be removed from the

24 ELMO. If this photograph could be marked as Exhibit 3/111 and a copy

25 placed on the ELMO and copies passed around the courtroom, please.

Page 3622

1 Q. Witness Y, if you could look at the photograph that's been placed

2 on the projector. What does this photograph show?

3 A. This photograph shows the entrance to the offices and to the

4 kitchen.

5 Q. Above the entrance there appears to be a roof. Who, if anyone,

6 would you see on that roof?

7 A. On this roof was where the machine-gun was positioned and a

8 guard.

9 Q. If you could point again, please, on the photograph. So you're

10 pointing to the flat area of the roof above the entrance to the restaurant

11 and administration building.

12 A. Yes.

13 MR. SAXON: If that photograph could be removed now. Thank you.

14 Q. Witness Y, during the time you were detained in Omarska camp, did

15 you learn anything about how the guards were organised?

16 A. The guards were organised in three shifts; from 7.00 a.m. until

17 7.00 p.m., and they changed in the evening, and then the next shift worked

18 from 7.00 in the evening until 7.00 the next morning, and one shift was

19 free.

20 Q. Before you were taken to the Keraterm and Omarska camps, Witness

21 Y, did you know a man by the name of Mladjo Radic?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. How did you know Mladjo Radic?

24 A. He was a policeman before the war in Ljubija.

25 Q. Would you see Mladjo Radic in the Omarska camp?

Page 3623

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What was Mladjo Radic known as in the Omarska camp? What was he

3 called there?

4 A. They called him by the nickname Krkan.

5 Q. How do you know that?

6 A. I know that on the basis of an incident that occurred. People

7 from my village were beaten up, and then one gentleman of Croat ethnicity,

8 nicknamed Nono, manager of the hotel in Prijedor, went to see Mr. Krkan

9 and asked for protection in his shift so that we wouldn't be beaten.

10 Q. Were the people from your village provided with protection at that

11 time?

12 A. Yes, we were given protection. We were told that we should form a

13 line next to the door of the hangar so that they would know who the people

14 from my village were.

15 Q. Do you recall who told the people from your village that they

16 should form a line next to the door of the hangar?

17 A. One of the guards from Krkan's shift.

18 Q. What did Mladjo Radic, or Krkan, wear when he was in Omarska?

19 A. He wore mostly a police uniform, light blue in colour. Because it

20 was summer, he only wore the shirt, and the bottom were pants.

21 Q. How often would you see Mladjo Radic in the Omarska camp?

22 A. While I was on the pista for 15 days, during those 15 days I saw

23 him three or four times.

24 Q. Where would Mladjo Radic be during those three or four times?

25 A. I saw him two or three times at the pista, in front of the

Page 3624

1 entrance, and I saw him twice in that circular part that is glassed in,

2 that looks rather like a balcony.

3 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, if I could ask the usher to mark one of

4 these photographs as 3/112, please, and place one of them on the ELMO and

5 distribute the other copies around the courtroom. Thank you.

6 Q. Witness Y, if you could look at the photograph that's been placed

7 on the projector next to you, and can you tell the Trial Chamber what you

8 see on that photograph?

9 A. On this photograph I can see the entrance to the kitchen and the

10 offices, and I can see this circular part with the glass, this staircase.

11 It's something like a balcony.

12 Q. Who would you see, or who did you see a couple of times behind the

13 glass on that circular staircase?

14 A. On this circular staircase I saw Mr. Mladen Radic.

15 Q. What is the numbering on that staircase on the photograph?

16 A. A21.

17 Q. What was Mladjo Radic doing when you saw him standing on that

18 circular staircase?

19 A. He was looking through the glass, with his arms folded.

20 MR. SAXON: If that photograph could be removed now. Thank you.

21 Q. Witness Y, while you were detained at the Omarska camp, did you

22 learn who were the members of the shift of Mladjo Radic, or Krkan?

23 A. Partially. In Mladen Radic's shift was the so-called "karate

24 kid." There was a young man with fair hair, very tall. He had a band-aid

25 on his forehead. I don't know his name and I don't remember anymore. A

Page 3625

1 band-aid on his forehead.

2 Q. The man you knew as the "karate kid," where did that name come

3 from?

4 A. I think it was a nickname he gave himself. He would call himself

5 that while beating the prisoners.

6 Q. Can you describe what the man known as "karate kid" looked like?

7 A. He was a youngish man of 18 or 19, fair, small in build, with

8 short cut hair, a crew-cut. He wore camouflage pants and an olive-grey

9 undervest and Alpina make shoes, like mountain shoes, climbing shoes.

10 Q. When you were detained in the Omarska camp, did you know a man

11 named Safet Sumic?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What was the ethnicity of Safet Sumic, if you know?

14 A. He was a Muslim.

15 Q. On the first night in the Omarska camp, what happened, if

16 anything, to Safet Sumic?

17 A. Yes. Safet Sumic was taken out of the small room that we marked

18 as A4, and he was taken out into the hallway. Shortly after that he

19 returned with a miner's helmet on, and he said that we had to collect

20 120.000 Serb dinars for the windows that had been broken, the locks

21 broken, the doors broken down, and the like.

22 Q. Do you recall who called Safet Sumic out of the room?

23 A. The "karate kid."

24 Q. Did the prisoners in your room collect some money?

25 A. Yes, we collected something like 12.000. Of course that was not

Page 3626

1 sufficient, and then the "karate kid" came in, together with Safet Sumic,

2 and said, "What's this? Come on. Collect some more money."

3 Q. What happened after that?

4 A. After that we collected another 5.000 or 6.000, and we gave that

5 money to Safet Sumic, which, of course, was not enough. Then the "karate

6 kid" came in and took out, one by one, the detainees.

7 Q. Were you also taken out at that time?

8 A. The first time I was not. But the "karate kid" said, "What is

9 this? Where is the money?" and then I plucked up the strength to say that

10 we didn't have any money, that they had taken it all away from us in

11 Keraterm. Then the "karate kid" cursed my mother and kicked me in the

12 heart area.

13 Q. Very briefly, what happened then, after you were kicked in the

14 heart area?

15 A. I partly lost consciousness. I was sitting on the floor and this

16 was very convenient for him to kick me, and it was a very strong blow. He

17 tried to hit another young man in the head and he happened to miss him.

18 Q. Then what happened?

19 A. Then he took Mr. Ismet Islamovic outside, into the corridor.

20 Q. Were you subsequently beaten after that, on that same night or

21 day?

22 A. Yes. After seven or eight men had been taken out, my turn came.

23 The "karate kid" asked me my name; I told him my name. This reminded him

24 of a former president of a state, and he took me to a small room next door

25 to the room we were in.

Page 3627

1 Q. What happened to you inside that small room?

2 A. In this other small room there was an office table and nothing

3 else. There were three other guards inside, and two of them stood behind

4 my back, the "karate kid" on my right and another man on my left, and the

5 fifth guard stood at the door with a rifle at the ready.

6 Q. And briefly what happened to you then?

7 A. Then they started with their questions, where I was, why didn't I

8 respond to the Serb mobilisation. And when I answered to the best of my

9 ability, then I was asked whether I had any money, and then the beating

10 started.

11 Q. How long were you beaten?

12 A. Roughly 15 or 20 minutes. First my eyebrow split. Then I was

13 kicked in my left eyebrow, and that split too. Then the boys behind my

14 back hit me with police batons and some kind of a cable, electricity

15 cable.

16 Q. Did all the guards present in that room beat you?

17 A. Yes, except the fifth guard who was standing at the door.

18 Q. As a result of this beating, did you have visible injuries?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Subsequently, did anyone ask what had happened to you?

21 A. Yes. The next day, the guard from the second shift, a dark, tall

22 young man with very dark, straight hair, with a slightly crooked nose,

23 whom I myself called Kobac, he was standing at the entrance of room number

24 4, the one we marked, and he asked me, "What happened to you?"

25 Q. What response, if any, did you make?

Page 3628

1 A. Of course I didn't dare say that I had been beaten up. So I just

2 said that I had fallen and hit myself in the doorway.

3 Q. Witness Y, do you recall the date when you were interrogated at

4 the Omarska camp?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. What was that date?

7 A. It was a Tuesday, the 7th of July.

8 Q. What was your physical condition when you were taken for

9 interrogation?

10 A. I could hardly move. My physical condition was very difficult.

11 Q. Where were you interrogated?

12 A. I was interrogated in the offices located above the kitchen.

13 Q. During that interrogation, were you beaten?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Can you describe how you were beaten?

16 A. The interrogator first proceeded with his questions and he showed

17 me an alleged statement. Since he did not get the answer with which he

18 might have been pleased, he then called two guards wearing camouflage

19 uniforms. I believe that those people were members of some special unit.

20 He ordered me to kneel down, to take off my jacket, and then the two

21 guards, very tall men of athletic build, started kicking me in the kidney

22 area.

23 Q. Did you sustain injuries during that beating?

24 A. Yes. I could no longer feel my kidneys. I didn't feel that part

25 of my back. And I was about to lose consciousness, but I mustered enough

Page 3629

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Page 3630

1 courage to tell the investigator that I didn't know anything else, that he

2 might as well kill me but that he would not find out anything from me any

3 more.

4 Q. When you were taken for interrogation on that Tuesday, the 7th of

5 July, did you still have visible signs from the beating you had previously

6 received in the hangar building?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. When you were beaten during your interrogation, were the guards

9 beating you guards from the Omarska camp, or were they other guards?

10 A. I didn't see those guards very often. Actually, I only saw them

11 on that occasion, during that particular interrogation, and that was it.

12 I didn't see the two of them any more.

13 Q. Was there anything particularly different or special that you

14 noticed about those guards?

15 A. Yes. They were wearing a special type of camouflage uniform.

16 They were very tight on them, a military kind of uniform. They looked

17 different from the guards that were working in shifts.

18 Q. When you eventually left the interrogation room that day, what, if

19 anything, happened in the hallway outside the room?

20 A. I don't understand your question.

21 Q. When your interrogation and the beating finished and you left the

22 room, what happened to you?

23 A. On the staircase, going towards the offices, there were about five

24 or six guards who were on duty in that shift. Some of them had knives in

25 their hands; some had truncheons. And they all tried to reach me as I was

Page 3631

1 going down the stairs. I got out, I left the building, and after the

2 interrogation, I was told to go to the pista.

3 Q. You say that there were five or six guards on the staircase who

4 were on duty in that shift. So were these guards from the Omarska camp?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. After that beating that you received during your interrogation,

7 what was your physical condition like?

8 A. I was very weak physically. I had very severe pain, bruises all

9 over my back. I still had the headache from my split and fractured

10 eyebrows. I was in a very bad condition.

11 Q. Were any of your injuries visible?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. How were they visible?

14 A. I had blue swellings under my eyes. My eyebrows were both cut,

15 split. I couldn't see what else I had on my face. But I was in a very

16 bad condition.

17 Q. Were you able to walk normally?

18 A. No. I walked with difficulty, but I had to walk because if the

19 guards noticed that you were lagging behind, dragging your feet, one would

20 always risk another beating.

21 Q. Witness Y, I have some questions regarding the other detainees at

22 the Omarska camp. Do you recall a man named Gavranovic, nicknamed

23 Bugara.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you know this man?

Page 3632

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. How did you know him?

3 A. He was a Croat from my town. He was a driver. And like myself

4 and many others, he too had been taken to the camp.

5 Q. While you were on the pista, did you see Mr. Gavranovic taken for

6 interrogation?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you see Mr. Gavranovic after he came back from his

9 interrogation?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Can you describe Mr. Gavranovic's condition at the time?

12 A. Mr. Gavranovic was walking unsteadily. He was walking in a zigzag

13 line; he was unable to walk straight. He was escorted by two guards

14 towards the "white house."

15 Q. What happened after that?

16 A. After that Mr. Gavranovic missed the door, and he hit his head

17 against the doorway. Then one of the guards said that he should be taken

18 back. He told him to go back and to hit the wall once again.

19 Q. When you say he hit his head against the doorway, what was the

20 door -- where was the doorway that Mr. Gavranovic struck his head against?

21 A. It was the doorway into the "white house," the so-called "white

22 house."

23 Q. After Mr. Gavranovic was told to go back and hit his head again,

24 what happened then?

25 A. He moved back a few steps and then he struck his head again, and

Page 3633

1 then he was told to do it once again and to strike his head even

2 stronger. And that went on for about five or six times.

3 Q. Witness Y, when you use the pronoun "he," who are you referring

4 to?

5 A. I'm referring to Mr. Gavranovic, Bugara.

6 Q. Did Mr. Gavranovic survive this incident?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Do you recall any of the guards who were involved in this

9 incident?

10 A. One of the guards was the "karate kid," and I don't remember the

11 other one.

12 Q. Whose shift was the "karate kid" on?

13 A. The "karate kid" was in Krkan's shift.

14 Q. Did this incident involving Mr. Gavranovic occur during the day or

15 the night?

16 A. During the day.

17 Q. Were you able to see what was happening to Mr. Gavranovic clearly

18 from where you were on the pista?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you recall a man named, and I hope my pronunciation is correct,

21 Huzeir Alagic?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What do you recall about Mr. Alagic?

24 A. Mr. Alagic was not -- he had gone insane.

25 Q. What eventually happened to Mr. Alagic?

Page 3634

1 A. Mr. Alagic stood up while he was on the pista and he started

2 issuing commands to someone. He told that person, "Stand up, to the

3 right," and things like that. Then a guard came and he took Mr. Alagic

4 away and led him behind the "white house."

5 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Alagic again?

6 A. No.

7 Q. If you know, what was the ethnicity of Mr. Alagic?

8 A. He was a Muslim.

9 Q. When he was taken away, was Mr. Alagic taken away during the day

10 or the night?

11 A. During the day.

12 Q. Witness Y, when you were held on the ground floor of the hangar

13 building, do you recall a group of men being taken out at night?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Do you recall the names of these men?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What were their names?

18 A. Nihad Denic, Senad Ikinovic, Komljenovic, whose first name I don't

19 know, and Solaja, which is I believe his nickname.

20 Q. What was the ethnicity of these men?

21 A. The first two are Muslims and the second two, Croats.

22 Q. When these men returned to your area on the ground floor of the

23 hangar, could you observe their condition?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Could you describe the conditions of these men when they returned

Page 3635

1 to the room?

2 A. Nihad Denic had a broken leg. Senad Ikinovic had a broken arm.

3 Komljenovic had a broken jaw. As for Solaja, one could not see injuries

4 on him.

5 Q. Were these same individuals taken out again later that night?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. What, if anything, did you hear at that time?

8 A. They were taken out. When they came back to the room, an hour

9 later they were called out again and taken out again, and then I heard

10 shots.

11 Q. Did you ever see either of these four men again?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Witness Y, were you ever forced to load dead bodies while you were

14 detained at the Omarska camp?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. While you were on the pista, when, if ever, were you told to load

17 a body?

18 A. On one occasion.

19 Q. Can you explain what happened on that occasion, please?

20 A. A man by the name of Ilijaz, Ilijaz Drobic, had come back from an

21 interrogation, and he was dying. He was next to me, actually behind me,

22 and he was asking for water, but we didn't dare turn around and give him

23 the water. And five to ten minutes later, he died. Then an order came

24 for four of us to wrap him in a blanket and to take his body next to the

25 "white house."

Page 3636

1 Q. Did you do that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What, if anything, did you see when you got by the "white house"?

4 A. I don't remember.

5 Q. All right. While you were detained in the hangar, on the ground

6 floor, were you ever forced to load dead bodies?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Can you describe when that occurred, please?

9 A. I don't recall the exact date when that occurred, but four of us

10 men were taken out and told to go to the "white house."

11 Q. When you arrived in the "white house," what did you see there?

12 A. When we got there, in one of the rooms we found a body of a man

13 that had been murdered.

14 Q. Can you describe the condition of that body?

15 A. The body was stiff. The joints around the elbows and in the area

16 of the ankles were cut, and the throat was cut almost to the middle.

17 Q. What did you notice about the room where you found that body?

18 A. There were very big stains in that room. Almost all of the floor

19 was covered in very dark stains, bloodstains. And on the radiator, I

20 noticed some hair, parts of the head, brains, pieces of skull.

21 Q. What, if anything, did you do with that body?

22 A. We were ordered to load the body onto a truck, a two-tonne truck.

23 Q. Was someone driving that truck?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Can you describe the driver of the truck, please?

Page 3637

1 A. The driver was rather short. Actually, of a medium build. He had

2 dark hair and a moustache and he always wore a blue overcoat.

3 Q. When you say the driver always wore a blue overcoat, was that

4 civilian attire or was that some kind of a uniform?

5 A. It was a kind of working uniform, working overcoat.

6 Q. What happened after the body was put on the truck?

7 A. After we put the body on the truck, we followed the truck on foot

8 and near -- we went to the area which we referred to as the "red room,"

9 which contained pumps.

10 Q. Did you enter the "red room"?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Did you see anything outside the "red room"?

13 A. Yes. In front of the "red room" there was a pile of dead people,

14 people who had been murdered.

15 Q. This area or this place that you referred to as the "red room,"

16 was it actually a separate building?

17 A. Yes, it was a small building which contained pumps, but it was

18 referred to as the "red room."

19 Q. You said that there was a pile of dead people outside the "red

20 room." Can you describe what those dead people looked like?

21 A. The dead bodies were still warm. The skulls were fractured.

22 Their jaws were fractured. There were bodies with throats slit.

23 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, if the usher could place the photograph

24 which is Exhibit 3/82 on the ELMO, please.

25 Q. Witness Y, could you take a look at that photograph and indicate

Page 3638

1 with the pointer the building that you are referring to as the "red room,"

2 please?

3 A. [Indicates]

4 Q. Thank you.

5 MR. SAXON: That photograph can be removed now. If the record

6 could reflect that the witness pointed to the red building in the corner

7 of the exhibit.

8 Q. What were you told to do with these bodies outside the "red room"?

9 A. We were told to load the bodies onto a small truck.

10 Q. Did you do so?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What else, if anything, were you told?

13 A. Initially I thought that we were supposed to take off that one

14 body that we had found in the "white house," take it off of the truck and

15 put it onto a pile. But then the guard started to shout and told us that

16 the bodies that were on the ground were supposed to be loaded onto the

17 truck.

18 We were then ordered to put our hands behind our backs and to go

19 back to the room where we had been before. I was the first one in the

20 column, in the line, and I did not hear the order. Then the guard started

21 to shout and he said, "Do you want me to shoot you now, near this wall?"

22 Q. What else, if anything, were you told at that time, after you

23 loaded the bodies?

24 A. We were told not to talk about what we had seen because the same

25 would happen to us.

Page 3639

1 Q. When you say that "we were told not to talk about what we had

2 seen," was that instruction not to talk to other detainees, other guards,

3 commanders? Who?

4 A. That we should not talk to other detainees.

5 Q. The night before this incident when you loaded the bodies outside

6 of the "red room," do you recall anyone being called out?

7 A. Yes. The night before, the Sikiric brothers were called out.

8 Q. When you went back into the hangar the next day after loading the

9 bodies, did you describe the bodies you had seen to your fellow detainees?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Was anyone recognised from that description?

12 A. Yes. Other detainees who knew these gentlemen said that the

13 individuals in question could be the Sikiric brothers who are amongst the

14 killed individuals.

15 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, at this time it is 2.30. Perhaps this

16 would be the right place to pause.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you very much,

18 Mr. Saxon. We will have a break until tomorrow, until tomorrow at 9.30.

19 Witness, we will continue with your testimony tomorrow morning.

20 I will see you all tomorrow at 9.30.

21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

22 2.32 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,

23 the 6th day of July, 2000, at 9.30 a.m.

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