1 Tuesday, 11 July 2000

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

4 [The witness entered court]

5 [The accused entered court]

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning. You may be

7 seated. Good morning to the technical booth, the interpreters, legal

8 assistants, and court reporters; good morning, Madam Registrar; good

9 morning, Ms. Hollis, Mr. Waidyaratne, Mr. Piacente; good morning, Defence

10 counsel. They're all here, I see.

11 Good morning, Witness. Can you hear me well?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Before we continue, can everyone

14 follow? Can we hear each other well? Fine.

15 You're going to continue to answer questions put to you today. It

16 is the turn of the Defence counsel of Mr. Zigic. I remind you that you

17 are still under oath.

18 So Mr. Tosic and Mr. Stojanovic, your witness.

19 WITNESS: WITNESS N [Resumed]

20 [Witness answered through interpreter]

21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

22 Cross-examined by Mr. Stojanovic:

23 Q. Sir, I have to use the pseudonym N in addressing you. Mr. Zigic's

24 defence, composed of my colleague Mr. Tosic from Banja Luka and myself,

25 Slobodan Stojanovic from Belgrade, has a few questions for you.

1 During your testimony yesterday, you stated that you had known

2 Mr. Zigic before Keraterm as a taxi driver from Prijedor. Can you tell us

3 a little more about that, how you came to meet him? Did you use his

4 services? Did you see him driving a taxi, or in some other way?

5 A. I learnt about him seeing him driving a taxi, and I saw him

6 washing his car at Trisvic's, and I know that his relatives live near

7 Kozarac. That's all I know about him.

8 Q. Thank you. Where would you see Mr. Zigic as a taxi driver, what

9 part of town or in the suburbs? Roughly?

10 A. I saw him twice at the Prijedor railway station.

11 Q. Do you remember what car he drove as a taxi?

12 A. I'm not quite sure whether it was a Fiat or a Lada.

13 Q. Do you remember the colour of the car?

14 A. It was beige, cream coloured.

15 Q. Can you tell us in what period of time you saw him as a taxi

16 driver? I'm not asking for any precision.

17 A. Well, in the years before the war, in 1991 and 1992.

18 Q. But in 1992 the war had already broken out. So you mean until the

19 actual outbreak of the war?

20 A. Yes, 1991, 1992.

21 Q. Thank you. You described his appearance before you saw him in

22 Keraterm, and you said, among other things, that he had a scar on his

23 face. Could you describe that scar in greater detail, what part of the

24 face?

25 A. It is on his chin somewhere.

1 Q. My question was: You noticed the scar before you met him in

2 Keraterm?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You have already almost answered that question. Did you ever have

5 personal contacts with Zigic before Keraterm?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Thank you. In 1994, I have noted the date of the 26th of

8 September as the date when you gave a written statement to the Prosecution

9 of this Tribunal.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did you state on that occasion that in the first seven days of

12 your stay in Keraterm, as far as you knew, some 50 men had been released

13 after having been interrogated?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Let us go back to the event with Emsud Bahonjic, and I have a few

16 questions regarding that for you. Do you know the circumstances under

17 which Emsud was arrested?

18 A. Emsud was arrested in Kozarac near the taxi cafe bar, in the

19 reserve police force, wearing that uniform. He had a rifle on him from

20 which he had not shot a single bullet, and two or three others were

21 arrested with him and were executed on the spot.

22 Q. Does that mean that he was a kind of fighter?

23 A. He was not a combatant. He was a member of the reserve police

24 force.

25 Q. But he had a rifle. Did he have ammunition too?

1 A. Yes, the rifle was issued to him by the public security station of

2 Prijedor, like all active duty and reserve policemen of Prijedor

3 municipality.

4 Q. Within which police organisation was he at the moment of arrest?

5 A. He was a member of the Yugoslav reserve police force.

6 Q. If I'm not mistaken, you said that he was brought on the 8th or

7 9th of June. So he had been arrested just prior to that. Did a Yugoslav

8 police force exist at that time in that part of Bosnia?

9 A. I didn't quite understand the question.

10 Q. You told us yesterday that Emsud was brought on the 8th or 9th of

11 June to the camp. So I assume he was arrested the day before, that very

12 same day, but that is not important. And you said when he was arrested,

13 he was a member of the Yugoslav police. My question is: At that point in

14 time, that is, beginning of June, did a Yugoslav police force exist at all

15 in that part of Bosnia?

16 A. As far as I know, the Yugoslav police still existed then, and he

17 was arrested two, three, or five days before his arrival in Keraterm.

18 Q. Thank you. Do you know perhaps a little more about the police

19 unit he belonged to and who was in command?

20 A. Zigic, from the village of Balte was with him, but I don't know

21 his first name. He was with him in the unit.

22 Q. You said he arrived in Keraterm on the 8th or 9th of June. Was he

23 already beaten up? Do you know who beat him up previously?

24 A. It was Dusan Knezevic, called Duca.

25 Q. In your statement to the Prosecution, did you say that Emsud told

1 you at the time, if Duca or Dusan Knezevic comes, I'm finished?

2 A. Yes. But Zoran Zigic came at the same time and nicknamed him the

3 sniper from Singapore.

4 Q. Do you know the reason why the late Emsud feared Duca so much?

5 A. No.

6 Q. In that same statement, did you say that Emsud was beaten for the

7 following 19 or 20 days, on a daily basis?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did you say in that statement that Emsud died in the afternoon? I

10 think it was the 26th of June.

11 A. I made that statement a long time ago, and I don't remember very

12 well. I still haven't read that statement, and you have studied it.

13 Q. Can I remind you? Can I refresh your memory then?

14 It is page 13 of the Bosnian or Serbian version. It doesn't

15 matter which. Second paragraph from the top, and it says: "Emsud died in

16 the afternoon. I think it was the 26th of June."

17 Do you remember saying that?

18 A. I cannot remember that.

19 Q. In that same statement, did you say that Emsud was beaten by Dusan

20 Knezevic, Zoran Zigic, Predrag Banovic, a concern Sahadija, and a certain

21 Kondic? Of course, this was not simultaneously, but did all these persons

22 participate in beating Emsud Bahonjic according to what you said in that

23 statement?

24 A. They all participated but Zoran Zigic beat him the most, then

25 Dusan Knezevic, and then young Predrag Banovic as third.

1 Q. In that same statement, did you say that Duca participated about

2 ten times in beating up Emsud?

3 A. Whoever was called out from any room, Emsud was among them,

4 because that was the order given by Zigic.

5 Q. But my question was: Did you say that Duca participated about ten

6 times in beating up Emsud?

7 A. Yes, I did say that.

8 Q. Did you also mention a very bad beating that Emsud received from

9 Predrag Banovic when Emsud happened to be alone in the room?

10 A. I cannot recollect that.

11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With the Court's indulgence, I

12 should like to read from page 17, the one but last paragraph:

13 "Once when I was standing in line for food in front of the room

14 in which I was held at the time, I saw that Emsud was the only one left in

15 room number 2. I saw Predrag Banovic go to him. I heard Emsud

16 screaming. When I went back towards Emsud, the whole left side of his

17 face was completely deformed. When this happened, there was no one else

18 there but Banovic."

19 Q. Can you remember that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did you ever see Zoran Zigic in Keraterm together with any one of

22 the Banovic brothers that you mentioned, together?

23 A. Yes, yes.

24 Q. Tell us, please, when, if it wasn't frequently?

25 A. It was when the Banovics were on duty as guards, Zigic could come

1 into the camp at his will.

2 Q. Can you tell us in what period of time this occurred? More

3 precisely, when were the Banovics on duty, on guard?

4 A. What do you mean?

5 Q. Well perhaps I wasn't quite clear enough. Were they there from

6 the very beginning when you arrived in Keraterm, as guards in Keraterm?

7 A. Three or four days later, they started coming to Keraterm as

8 guards in Keraterm.

9 Q. After your arrival?

10 A. Yes, after my arrival in Keraterm. And they stayed until the end

11 of my stay in Keraterm.

12 Q. A few questions in connection with an individual known as Car.

13 Can you tell us, in somewhat more detail, when the event -- when somebody

14 was forced to run with a machine-gun, roughly when does this happen?

15 A. It happened in the afternoon. It was raining. I do not recollect

16 the date because it was a long time ago, but it was in the second or third

17 half of my stay in the camp. I mean in the -- no. In the second or third

18 week of my stay in the camp.

19 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us anything more as to when Car died?

20 A. I think it was in the night, but I saw his body the next day in

21 front of the door of the toilet, about seven or eight metres away.

22 Q. Let us clarify a certain detail, if we may. You told us yesterday

23 that he died the next day after this event, if I am not mistaken. And in

24 this statement, on page 14, it says that you told the Prosecution that he

25 died one hour after this incident. Is it correct that you said that

1 then? So could you explain that in greater detail?

2 A. He died an hour after that running, but I saw his body the next

3 day, thrown out opposite the door of the toilet, at a distance of some

4 seven or eight metres.

5 Q. Thank you. Regarding Sengin Ramadanovic, in your statement to the

6 Prosecution, did you say that he was beaten by Zigic, Banovic, and Duca?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. When did you see Zigic for the last time in Keraterm? I think you

9 told us you were there from the 31st of May until you went to Trnopolje on

10 the 6th of August, 1992. Can you tell us when you saw him for the last

11 time? If you don't know the date, then tell us in relation to a certain

12 event.

13 A. I saw him for the last time in the Trnopolje camp, when we arrived

14 from Keraterm.

15 Q. That is in Trnopolje. But my question is when you saw him for the

16 last time in Keraterm.

17 A. I'm afraid I can't remember that.

18 Q. Could you link that somehow to your period of stay? So far you

19 have been talking about the first, second, and third week of your stay.

20 A. No. I just can't remember.

21 Q. You told us a little about the event or, rather, the massacre in

22 room number 3. If I understood you correctly, you were taken out in the

23 morning to pile up the bodies, as you said, between rooms number 3 and 4.

24 Is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. After that, did you say that shortly after that, a truck arrived

2 for the bodies to be loaded on it?

3 A. Yes, the truck arrived later for the bodies to be loaded onto it.

4 Q. Did you see Mr. Zigic close to that truck, close to that truck,

5 right next to the truck?

6 A. I saw him that day in the camp, but I can't say that I saw him

7 next to the truck. I really can't say that.

8 Q. Could you tell us where you saw him that day in the camp?

9 A. Whether he was near the scales or not, I'm not quite sure, but I

10 know that I saw him moving around in the camp.

11 Q. You said "on that day." What time of day was it? Was it in the

12 morning, midday, the afternoon?

13 A. I think that all the bodies had already been collected and had

14 started to be loaded onto the truck, something like that.

15 Q. The machine-gun or machine-guns, were they positioned in front of

16 the rooms in which the people were detained in Keraterm, even before this

17 night when the tragedy occurred?

18 A. The machine-gun nest was just behind the scales and just in front

19 of the scales.

20 Q. I beg your pardon. The question was: Did it exist before too?

21 A. Yes. But that night a truck arrived which was never there.

22 Q. Tell us, since when was the machine-gun nest positioned there?

23 Was it from the very first time you arrived or was it formed later?

24 A. When they put the wire at number 1 and number 2, they positioned

25 the machine-gun nest, but I can't remember the date.

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1 Q. You don't have to give us the date, but just tell us which week.

2 A. I think it was the third or fourth week of my stay in the camp.

3 Q. Does that mean that a machine-gun nest existed several days prior

4 to this massacre?

5 A. Yes. The machine-gun nest existed at two places, but that night a

6 truck came from which most of the shooting came and from which most of the

7 fire could be seen.

8 Q. The massacre, did you describe it in detail to the investigators

9 of the Prosecution in your statement?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. In that statement, did you describe a large number of incidents

12 with Zigic, other incidents?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. In that same statement, in describing this tragedy, did you

15 mention Zigic?

16 A. I cannot remember that.

17 Q. Let me put a direct question to you. On the day of the gunfire

18 and this dreadful massacre, did you see Zigic then?

19 A. I don't understand the question.

20 Q. I think the night before the massacre was the 24th. Of course you

21 may not remember the exact date, but the evening prior to the shooting of

22 men in room number 3, did you see Zoran Zigic somewhere in the vicinity?

23 A. I cannot remember whether I did or not.

24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your

25 indulgence, I should like to ask a few questions relative to some

1 protected witnesses. So I think it would be advisable to provide them

2 with maximum protection and, therefore, go into a private session.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Let's go into private

4 session.

5 [Private session]

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10 [Open session]

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We are already in public

12 session.

13 Mr. Waidyaratne, do you have any additional questions for this

14 witness?

15 MR. WAIDYARATNE: No, thank you.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr.

17 Waidyaratne. Judge Riad has the floor.

18 Questioned by the Court:

19 JUDGE RIAD: Witness N, good morning. Can you hear me?

20 A. Yes, I can.

21 JUDGE RIAD: I have just two questions perhaps to ask you for more

22 clarification, or for more information. You were once called by the guard

23 called Kajin to pile bodies between room 3 and 4. Bodies were being

24 pulled out from rooms 3 and 4 and you described the bodies as some of them

25 had no backs and some had no arms. Were these people without arms and

1 backs alive or dead? Were all the people inside the room being pulled out

2 dead?

3 A. They were all dead. They were all dead bodies.

4 JUDGE RIAD: So nobody survived from inside the rooms? They died

5 inside?

6 A. No. This only took place in room number 3, and some people

7 survived.

8 JUDGE RIAD: What took place when you say this took place?

9 A. The whole activity, the shooting incident occurred in room number

10 3 and in front of room number 3.

11 JUDGE RIAD: Shooting inside, inside the room itself?

12 A. The shooting was going on on that night in front of the room and

13 inside the room itself.

14 JUDGE RIAD: And the people who lost their backs and their arms,

15 the shooting does not -- was it shooting by bullets or by cannons to lose

16 the back or to lose the arms? To your knowledge, what happened? Was it

17 bombs, was it what?

18 A. The shooting was from a large calibre machine-gun from which fire

19 was opened.

20 JUDGE RIAD: Now, you also were called, I think, to load the

21 corpses on the truck which came. Now, all the people which were loaded --

22 you said to load corpses and wounded -- were they put together in the same

23 truck, one over the other, or were the wounded treated differently from

24 the dead?

25 A. I was ordered to collect them and put them on a pile, and others

1 were ordered to load them onto the truck, and the wounded also were

2 loading the dead onto the truck, and at the end the wounded also boarded

3 the truck together with the bodies.

4 JUDGE RIAD: You mean they were piled together, dead and wounded?

5 How were the wounded treated, if you remember?

6 A. The wounded were ordered to board the truck which was carrying

7 dead bodies, and they were all taken away on the same truck, and no

8 medical assistance was ever given to them.

9 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

11 Judge Riad.

12 Madam Judge Wald has the floor.

13 JUDGE WALD: Two brief questions, Witness N. You mentioned that

14 when the Banovics were on duty as guards, that Zigic could come into the

15 camp at will, and you saw him several times with one of the Banovics. Was

16 that the only time that Zigic, to your knowledge, could come into the camp

17 at will when these people, the Banovics, were on duty or was he there at

18 other times as well?

19 A. He would come whenever he wanted to come.

20 JUDGE WALD: So is wasn't just certain guards that could decide

21 whether he would come or not. He came whenever he wished, regardless of

22 who was on duty?

23 A. That is correct.

24 JUDGE WALD: Okay. My second question is just to make sure that I

25 understood your answer to one of the questions asked by Mr. Zigic's

1 counsel, and that is: Around the time of the alleged massacre, am I

2 correct that you didn't see Zigic around the gun placement the afternoon

3 before the shootings, and you didn't see him around the truck the morning

4 after the shootings when you were piling bodies? I just want to make sure

5 I have that correct. Is that right? Or you don't remember whether you

6 saw them?

7 A. I didn't load the bodies at all. I just pulled them out. And

8 Zigic was walking around the scales which was located in front of the

9 camp.

10 JUDGE WALD: Okay. That's what I wanted to get straight. I

11 understand you now to be saying that when you were doing the piling of the

12 bodies, Zigic was walking around somewhere in the vicinity, around the

13 scales that were located in front; is that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

17 Judge Wald.

18 Witness N, I have a question. Actually, I need some

19 clarification. You stated that you would see Zigic in the camp every day,

20 and you linked the presence of Zigic with the presence of another guard at

21 one point. Could you tell us the frequency of your sightings of Zigic in

22 the camp?

23 A. As regards the frequency, I can say that I saw him every day.

24 Sometimes he would come and stay only for one hour, sometimes 20 minutes.

25 On another occasion for two hours.

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Do you perhaps know whether

2 Zigic had any functions over there? Did he have any specific duties as

3 part of the security personnel? You were able to observe the situation on

4 a daily basis, so did you reach any conclusion in that respect?

5 A. As far as I know, he had no function whatsoever, because he would

6 come -- because there were shifts in the camp, and I didn't see him in any

7 of those shifts. He would come whenever he wished.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Therefore, he did not have any

9 particular schedule?

10 A. No.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Witness N.

12 I don't think we have any other questions for you except perhaps to ask

13 you whether you have anything to say, anything that has not been asked of

14 you here?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I don't think that we have any

17 documents that need to be tendered into evidence, Mr. Waidyaratne?

18 MR. WAIDYARATNE: No.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] As regards the Defence of

20 Mr. Zigic, no exhibits? Thank you.

21 Witness N, thank you very much for coming to testify here. We

22 wish you a pleasant journey back to your place of residence. Please do

23 not move for a second because the blinds need to be lowered down and only

24 after that can you be taken out of the courtroom by the usher.

25 [The witness withdrew]

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Hollis, what happens next?

2 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, the next witness will be Witness AM.

3 This witness will be testifying with a pseudonym and with image distortion

4 but not with voice distortion, and Mr. Piacente will be leading the direct

5 evidence of this witness.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The registrar has told me that

7 we need a short break to make all the necessary preparations, because it

8 seems that we no longer need the voice distortion. So certain technical

9 changes have to be made. So we will have a very brief break, only a

10 five-minute break to make the necessary arrangements.

11 --- Break taken at 10.15 a.m.

12 --- On resuming at 10.20 a.m.

13 [The witness entered court]

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness AM, can you hear me?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You will be referred to as

17 Witness AM because of the protective measures. Could you please read the

18 solemn declaration that the usher is giving you.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

20 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

21 WITNESS: WITNESS AM

22 [Witness answered through interpreter]

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may now be seated. Make

24 yourself comfortable. Are you comfortable, Witness?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I am.

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness AM, you are first going

2 to answer questions put to you by the Prosecutor, who is represented here

3 by Mr. Piacente.

4 Mr. Piacente, you have the floor. Oh, I'm sorry. There is some

5 something that we have to do before.

6 Witness, could you please have a look at the piece of paper that

7 the usher will show you, and could you tell us by simply saying yes or no

8 whether this is indeed your name?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

11 Now the examination can proceed. Mr. Piacente, you have the

12 floor.

13 MR. PIACENTE: Thank you very much. Before I start, Your Honour,

14 I would like to specify that Witness AM is being called to testify about

15 his personal data; his arrest; his confinement in Trnopolje and Omarska;

16 the ethnicity of prisoners; ethnicity of soldiers; treatment suffered by

17 him and other prisoners in Omarska; killings the night between 11th and

18 12th of July, 1992, St. Peter's Day; killings of detainees from Hambarine;

19 impact on the victim of the crimes committed by the accused.

20 Another request: May we go into private session for a while, just

21 for a few questions?

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We will go into private

23 session.

24 [Private session]

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13 [Open session]

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Piacente, we are in

15 public session again.

16 MR. PIACENTE:

17 Q. Did you stay in Trnopolje in May 1992?

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 Q. And then where were you taken?

20 A. According to some special lists or indictments, they were looking

21 for drivers who had been charged with arms smuggling from Croatia into

22 Bosnia, and I was amongst those people and I was taken to Omarska to be

23 interrogated there.

24 Q. And were you interrogated in Omarska?

25 A. I was interrogated on the same day I arrived in Omarska.

1 Q. Who were you interrogated by?

2 A. I was interrogated by two individuals in uniform whom I didn't

3 know. Later, according to some information that we had, we knew that

4 people from Banja Luka would come for interrogations in Omarska. There

5 was a policeman there who would hit the person who was being interrogated

6 if the investigators were not pleased with the answers.

7 Q. So you were interrogated, two policemen interrogated you. Who

8 else was present during your interrogation?

9 A. There was one civilian who was standing behind my back and who was

10 also present during my interrogation.

11 Q. What were you asked?

12 A. The first question was posed almost while I was at the door. They

13 asked me how many guns I had smuggled for Muslims in Kozarac.

14 Q. Was it only that question or were you asked other questions? If

15 you can list them, please.

16 A. There were other questions as well, such as who had organised the

17 defence in Kozarac, who had armed people, who had paid the people for

18 that, what my role in those activities was, whom I had voted for, why we

19 didn't want to live in Yugoslavia. So they wanted to know everything

20 about this prewar situation.

21 Q. Were you beaten?

22 A. Yes, I was. During the interrogation, I sustained numerous blows

23 with clubs. I didn't fall down, I didn't faint, but I was black and blue

24 all over my back.

25 Q. Who were you beaten by?

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1 A. I was beaten by a civilian who was standing in the corner of the

2 room behind my back.

3 Q. Where were you confined in Omarska?

4 A. When the interrogation ended, we could eat. We had dinner, and

5 then we were transferred to an electrical workshop in the building above

6 the garages where the machines were repaired. There was an electrical

7 workshop, and that is where I was detained.

8 Q. Which floor?

9 A. The first floor.

10 Q. Did other people arrive the first night of your confinement in

11 Omarska?

12 A. While we waited in line for dinner, a group of people arrived who

13 had been captured at Benkovac, two buses full, and who were getting off

14 the bus just then and being confined in the room behind the kitchen, some

15 sort of garages. Those men were running from the buses, and they had to

16 pass between two lines of Serb guards who hit them as they ran towards

17 this garage. The group numbered about 150 or 120 men. We didn't count

18 them, but there were two buses full.

19 Q. Were you registered when you arrived in Omarska?

20 A. Yes. When we were interrogated, they asked me about my personal

21 particulars, where I was born, my ID card. The documents I had on me I

22 had to show them.

23 Q. To your knowledge, were also the other prisoners registered?

24 A. When people were interrogated, everyone had to say his name. And

25 later on, as we stayed in the camp, lists were made. We were all forced

1 out of rooms, and when we went back in, everyone had to pass by a table,

2 give his name, and confirm this with a document or with witnesses who

3 could confirm their identity if they had no documents on them.

4 Q. During your confinement in Omarska, did you have to give money to

5 the soldiers?

6 A. Money was a great attraction for all the guards, the leadership of

7 the camp and generally. Money was always requested. So as not to kill

8 somebody, we would have to collect so much money. Then half an hour later

9 they would come back with the same request. At first there was some

10 money, but very soon, a week or two later, the money had been taken from

11 the people and then a collection of money was organised among people who

12 were assumed to have hidden some money at home, because everyone knew that

13 no one kept their money in the bank in Yugoslavia in those days because of

14 inflation. People kept foreign currency which they needed for their

15 business, at home.

16 Q. How much money did you give?

17 A. I had to make a drawing, a diagram, and two men took it and they

18 said they hadn't found my money at home. I had about 15.000 German

19 marks.

20 Q. Let's focus now on St. Peter's Day. Can you remember what

21 happened that night?

22 A. On the eve of St. Peter's Day, it is customary among the Serb

23 people to light bonfires, to rejoice, to drink, and we would see that in

24 the past, and the same happened that year. In that bonfire, they set fire

25 to a large tyre of at least two metres in diameter, and as they orgied,

1 they threw individuals into that fire. All this was happening in front of

2 the "white house."

3 Q. When you say "individuals," do you mean prisoners?

4 A. When I say "individuals," they are prisoners, Muslims who were

5 thrown into the fire by the guards who were standing around.

6 Q. How long did this ceremony last?

7 A. The ceremony went on for several hours. I was at the window

8 watching, and everybody wanted to look. We were pushing one another

9 around to watch. This went on for a couple of hours, but I was at the

10 window for a very short time, and I saw a young man being thrown in. And

11 an acquaintance of mine, who was his neighbour, who was standing next to

12 me, said his name was Cirkic, he was Captain Cirkic's brother who

13 apparently had organised the defence of Kozarac, and he had been thrown

14 into this burning tyre.

15 Q. Among the prisoners, do you recall people from Hambarine?

16 A. The people from Hambarine, one afternoon in the second half of

17 July, were brought there in two buses and put up in premises that we

18 called the hangar or the rooms number 15 and number 26. Then a couple of

19 hours later, those same people were all told to get out and all of them

20 were put up in the "white house." This was just before darkness fell.

21 Q. Was the "white house" one of the premises of Omarska?

22 A. Yes. The "white house" was across the way from this main

23 building. I can show it. I slept in an office upstairs in this building

24 occasionally, and I had a direct view of the "white house" from there, and

25 I could see what was happening to people who were taken that night to the

1 "white house."

2 Q. And can you tell us what happened that night?

3 A. That night I fell asleep very late, as usual, about 10.00 or

4 11.00, and roughly at 2.00 or 3.00 a.m. I was awakened by pistol shots

5 behind the building. I got up cautiously, I passed by a lemon plant that

6 was in a pot, and I saw people lying on the ground, lots of people, and

7 guards would go by and fire a bullet in their heads to finish them off. I

8 didn't see how they fell to the ground and how they were tortured.

9 Probably they were beaten by various things, fire extinguishers, clubs,

10 poles, and then the killing took place with pistol shots, one bullet each

11 into the head.

12 I remember well when this bullet was fired, the brain would come

13 out as if the bullet had hit milk, and it came out like white dust.

14 Q. Did you recognise any of the guards?

15 A. Only one guard I could recognise, his name was Zivko Marmat,

16 because he had unusually fair hair, the only one among all the guards who

17 came to the camp. He was the fairest. He was blonde.

18 Q. Where had the victims been confined before their arrival in

19 Omarska?

20 A. According to what the people who survived the massacre said, but

21 they didn't want to report, they were held in Keraterm for a month or

22 two.

23 Q. How do you know it?

24 A. This was established after we arrived at Manjaca and when we all

25 got together so we could contact one another. And a man surnamed Tadic, I

1 don't know his first name, said that he stayed behind and his whole group

2 of neighbours and acquaintance, who were apparently sent for exchange,

3 actually went to the "white house." Then I told him they never went to be

4 exchanged, they were all killed that night.

5 Q. Can you specify where were the bodies of the victims were lying

6 when they were shot?

7 A. The bodies of the victims lay around the "white house," behind the

8 "white house," on the side towards the "red house," on the concrete, on

9 the asphalt pista behind the "red house." Simply, I was horrified when I

10 saw so many bodies lying there, some 50 or 70 metres, in an area of some

11 50 or 70 metres.

12 Q. What happened to the corpses?

13 A. After these bullets were fired into people's heads, a truck came

14 and a loader, and then they took out two detainees, two prisoners from

15 behind the wire, and they had to load these bodies into the scoop of the

16 loader for the loader to load them onto the truck. Four or five of these

17 scoopfuls had to be loaded onto one truck. Then those bodies would be

18 driven away somewhere, and then the truck would return 10 or 15 minutes

19 later, and this happened five or six times.

20 Q. Can you describe this truck?

21 A. The truck was a FAP truck, F-A-P, it was a 19/21 model. It was a

22 loader. It's capacity was seven to eight cubic metres of loading space.

23 Q. Where was the office, where you were sleeping in that night,

24 located?

25 A. The office was on the first floor of this building here. I don't

1 know how deep inside it was, but it was roughly opposite the "white

2 house."

3 Q. What was the distance between you and the corpses, the whole

4 scene? Approximately.

5 A. The closest bodies were at a distance of 20 metres perhaps, and

6 those furthest away were behind the "red house," as far as I could see. I

7 couldn't see well, but I could see a little thanks to the lamps that were

8 lighted next to the "white house." So the greatest distance was 70 metres

9 between me and the bodies furthest away from me.

10 Q. How many times a day were you used to being fed?

11 A. As a rule, we ate once a day. However, if we were moved and if

12 the timetable was changed and if we were last in order, the last two or

13 three groups in order would get nothing that day, so that over a period of

14 two weeks, there was a great possibility of going without any food for one

15 day during that two-week period.

16 Q. Were you beaten during your meals?

17 A. Yes. During meals, people had to run, and entering the canteen

18 there was a bend, and they would pour water on the ground. People would

19 slip and fall. They would be beaten and then go and eat like that. And

20 coming back from the canteen, they had to make this bend again, and again

21 they would fall and again they would be beaten. There would be groups of

22 30 going to the canteen to eat. Everything had to be done very quickly.

23 When they said, "That's it," we will to leave regardless of whether you

24 had finished your meal or not.

25 Q. How long did you stay in Omarska?

1 A. I stayed in Omarska a little under two and a half months.

2 Q. And then where were you confined?

3 A. Then a fatal transport occurred. A selection of people in

4 Omarska, of people who were sent to Trnopolje, another group to Manjaca,

5 and a last group remained as a showcase for the public, to show them that

6 this was a small centre, that it was no concentration camp, that it was an

7 investigation centre. Then two days later, after representatives of the

8 International Community visited them, the doctors without frontiers who

9 got a good impression of people being fed regularly, being free to move,

10 being able to wash and bathe, then a large group was transferred to

11 Manjaca and an equally large group to Trnopolje.

12 We travelled for a long time to Manjaca. We left just before

13 nightfall, and I don't remember exactly for how long, late into the

14 night. During the trip the buses were stopped, and individuals were asked

15 to get off. Why and by whom I don't know. There were little lists going

16 around and notes, but nothing unusual happened before we reached Manjaca.

17 We all spent that night in buses. The camp commander would not let men

18 get off the buses at night, so we had to spend the night in the buses.

19 In the morning, we were all forced off the buses. Then again

20 lists were being made. People could already have been recognised. We all

21 had to squat to be searched, and then a certain number of people from that

22 group were separated to one side and killed some 50 metres away from us.

23 They were later loaded onto a bus and thrown next to the Vrbas River at

24 Banja Luka. We heard this later from people who had relatives in Banja

25 Luka, that those bodies were found and that they were buried.

1 Q. Thank you very much.

2 MR. PIACENTE: Your Honour, with the help of the usher, can

3 Witness AM be shown Exhibit 377D? It is a diagram.

4 Q. Witness AM, looking at this diagram, can you please point to the

5 room, the place from which you saw the guards shooting the prisoners from

6 Hambarine?

7 A. Could you please turn the picture around by 180 degrees? I'm not

8 sure whether it was this office or this one.

9 Q. Can you tell us the numbers? Yes, there are some letters and

10 numbers on the place that you pointed. Can you tell us which numbers are

11 they? Which numbers did you point to?

12 A. It says B19 here and B18, I think.

13 Q. Okay. Can you please point to the room where you were usually

14 confined, the electricity workshop?

15 A. B14.

16 Q. Thank you very much.

17 MR. PIACENTE: Can Witness AM be shown Exhibit 382.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me for interrupting you,

19 but for the record, we have to say that it is Exhibit 3/77 to make sure

20 that things are quite correct. It's not 377 but 3/77. Otherwise, we will

21 run into problems. Thank you.

22 MR. PIACENTE: Thank you very much, Your Honour. As well, I think

23 that the exhibit that is now being shown to Witness AM is 3/82. Is that

24 correct?

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Yes.

1 MR. PIACENTE: This is the exhibit I was looking for. Thanks.

2 Q. Witness AM, can you point to the room from which you said that you

3 saw the guards shooting the prisoners from Hambarine?

4 A. Roughly here.

5 MR. PIACENTE: Is it possible for the witness to mark with a pen

6 the place that he has identified? Okay. I withdraw the question.

7 Thanks. Sorry.

8 Q. Can you identify, can you point, please, to the place where you

9 saw the bodies lying down?

10 A. The bodies were lying around the "white house," in this area, and

11 behind the "red house."

12 MR. PIACENTE: Thank you very much. No more questions for the

13 moment.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: You have no more questions.

15 MR. PIACENTE: No more questions for the moment.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Now is the time for the

17 cross-examination, but I see it is almost 11.00. So perhaps we should

18 have a break now and then resume for the cross-examination. In that way,

19 the Defence will have sufficient time to prepare.

20 Witness, please don't move for the moment. The usher is going to

21 pull down the blinds.

22 [The witness stands down]

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So we're going to have a

24 half-hour break now.

25 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

1 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

2 [The witness entered court]

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.

4 Mr. Simic, what is going to be the order of the cross-examination,

5 please?

6 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Mr. Fila and myself

7 will be the only ones to cross-examine the witness; first Mr. Fila and

8 then myself. The rest of the Defence team have no questions for the

9 witness.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you,

11 Mr. Simic.

12 Witness AM, you're now going to answer questions that will be put

13 to you by Mr. Krstan Simic.

14 Mr. Simic, you have the floor.

15 Cross-examined by Mr. K. Simic:

16 Q. Good morning, Witness AM.

17 A. Good morning.

18 Q. I have only a few questions for you concerning your testimony here

19 and also concerning the statement that you gave to the representatives of

20 the Tribunal. You said that you had spent a period of time in Trnopolje.

21 A. Yes, I did.

22 Q. How long were you there?

23 A. Two or three days.

24 Q. Were you arrested or did you come to Trnopolje on your own?

25 A. On the third day of the shelling of Kozarac, a military vehicle

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1 came to my house and we were told to gather, all of us, from the Sora

2 street, and we were ordered to move towards Prijedor where we were

3 supposed to stay for a few days until the situation calms down. So we set

4 out for Prijedor but not alone the main Banja Luka road but via the Suhi

5 Brod village and then across the Prijedor-Banja Luka road junction in the

6 direction of the village of Orlovci. And before we reached the village of

7 Orlovci, we were taken to a side road, a dirt road, which led to

8 Trnopolje. We passed by a school, a local community centre, and this is

9 where we spent two or three nights. We were still on buses or trucks, and

10 this is how we reached Trnopolje.

11 Q. If I have understood you correctly, you were ordered to march, to

12 walk towards that location.

13 A. Initially, the idea was for us to walk. However, there was a

14 misunderstanding. We finally went to Trnopolje by buses, by trucks, and

15 other vehicles.

16 Q. You stated that you had gone to Omarska after Trnopolje. On what

17 day did you reach Omarska?

18 A. On Tuesday evening, we arrived in the Trnopolje camp, and then two

19 days later, on Friday afternoon, I was taken to Omarska.

20 Q. Could you tell us the date?

21 A. The date. I'm not sure what date it was. I know it was a

22 Friday. I could perhaps take a look at the calendar.

23 Q. What month was it?

24 A. It was in late May or the beginning of June. I cannot tell you

25 the exact date. It is either the 31st of May or the 1st of June.

1 Q. You told us that you had been put up in a warehouse, electrical

2 appliances warehouse, and that your room was on the first floor.

3 A. Yes, that is correct.

4 Q. Did you stay in that room throughout your stay in Omarska?

5 A. Until the 12th or the 13th of July, I slept in that room all the

6 time. After that, the door of the office was broken into, so during the

7 night I would go to that office and spend the night there. The room was

8 on the same floor in the same corridor, at the end of the corridor; that's

9 where the office was. I would never stay there during the day, only

10 during the night. Throughout my stay there, I was on the same floor and

11 the same corridor.

12 Q. The room in which you were at that time, did it have any windows,

13 and if so, how many and how big were they, if you can tell us that?

14 A. You mean the big warehouse or the office?

15 Q. The room where you spent your days.

16 A. The room had very large windows looking on one side, and the

17 windows went along the wall, covering the whole length of the room.

18 Q. What about the glass on those windows of that room, was it

19 transparent?

20 A. Yes, it was. There was a railing which was perhaps one metre and

21 one metre 20 centimetres high, and there was a glass pane above. I don't

22 know whether there was another railing above that one, but the windows

23 were rather large.

24 Q. So you're telling me that there was one railing. You're not sure

25 about the other one. Try to remember the room, and if you can, could you

1 please tell us how high was that closed area without glass?

2 A. If I compare it to a human being, it was a little above the waist.

3 Q. Where did the windows look onto?

4 A. The windows were facing the meadow, between the "red house" and

5 the "white house."

6 Q. So you were able to see both houses?

7 A. Yes, if I looked to the left, I could see the "red house." If I

8 looked to the right-hand side, I could see the "white house."

9 Q. You stated that after the 12th of July, you moved to another room

10 which had been broken into. Could you tell us about the windows in that

11 room?

12 A. It was the same kind of windows. They were rather large and also

13 had a railing, a window sill.

14 Q. What about the view from those windows?

15 A. I was somewhat closer to the "white house" in that room. From

16 that other room I couldn't see the "white house" directly, only if I

17 looked towards the right-hand side could I see the "white house."

18 Q. Let me go back to the room where you spent your time up to the

19 12th of July. From that room, were you perhaps able to see the entrance

20 door to the "white house"?

21 A. Yes. Yes, I could see that.

22 Q. Witness AM, during your stay in the first room, during the day,

23 how much time would you spend outside these rooms?

24 A. Well, I would go out for lunch and when I went to the toilet.

25 Q. Where was the toilet located?

1 A. At the beginning, we had two toilets on the same floor, but they

2 were closed down after awhile and were not being used. Later on, we were

3 using the toilet which was on the ground floor of the big hall near a

4 staircase which led outside from that building.

5 Q. If I understand you correctly, the toilet was inside the large

6 hangar building.

7 A. Yes, it was inside this building.

8 Q. Thank you. You mentioned your interrogation. You also told us

9 the circumstances about that interrogation. My question in relation to

10 that is the following: Was the individual who was beating you during the

11 interrogation under the authority of the investigators?

12 A. Yes, he was.

13 Q. You also testified that other individuals had been interrogated as

14 well.

15 A. Yes, in the adjacent room.

16 Q. Witness AM, do you have any knowledge, any information whether

17 during those days or after your interrogation, whether there were any

18 releases of detainees who had been interrogated, and if so, what was it

19 all about?

20 A. People were interrogated in great numbers in groups on a daily

21 basis, and at the end of the day, a group of people would be called out

22 which would subsequently be transferred to Trnopolje. This went on for

23 the first ten days, and after that, even that stopped and not a single

24 person was released before the closing down of the camp.

25 Q. So some people were transferred from Omarska to Trnopolje after

1 the interrogation?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 A. You're welcome.

5 Q. I should like to discuss your statement, the statement that you

6 gave to the investigators of the Tribunal. Did you talk to the

7 representatives of the Office of the Prosecutor?

8 A. Some time ago, quite awhile ago.

9 Q. What do you mean by that, "awhile ago."

10 A. Well, in 1994. Yes, I gave a statement in 1994.

11 Q. On that occasion, did you talk to Mr. Keegan?

12 A. I don't remember the names of those people at all.

13 Q. Did you give that statement on your own?

14 A. Yes, I did.

15 Q. On your own free will?

16 A. Yes, I did.

17 Q. Did you talk about everything you could remember at that time?

18 A. Yes. My recollection was much better in those days.

19 Q. Yes. Let us discuss the period of time before your arrival in

20 Trnopolje. You spoke at some length in that statement about the events in

21 Kozarac, about the arming of the population and similar events. Were

22 there any military or paramilitary organisations in Kozarac prior to the

23 attack on Kozarac?

24 A. There were two men who were in Kozarac who were detained, who had

25 been in detention and were criminals, and declared themselves as soldiers,

1 and they bought some weapons from Serbs. They organised two or three

2 small groups of people, according to the ideas that they had at the time.

3 They played war games and certain things happened after that.

4 Q. Witness AM, did they have any uniforms?

5 A. Well, they had uniforms that they had bought from the army. Those

6 were camouflage uniforms. Sometimes they would wear them and go out.

7 Sometimes they wore civilian clothes. They did that as they pleased.

8 They acted on their own.

9 Q. Do you remember their names or nicknames?

10 A. Yes, I do. I remember Kole, Ramiz Cirkin, for instance.

11 Q. Did you know the person by the name of Sead Cirkin?

12 A. I didn't know Sead Cirkin personally. He was an officer of the

13 former JNA. He had come to Kozarac sometime prior to the war, and he put

14 every single male name on the list of members of the army of Bosnia and

15 Herzegovina. However, an army without tanks or rockets or soldiers is

16 just a dead letter on paper.

17 Q. In your statement, you mentioned the weapons that belonged to the

18 Territorial Defence.

19 A. Yes, I did.

20 Q. Could you remember the number, the quantity of those weapons?

21 A. The weapons consisted mainly of very old Tandzara rifles, M-48

22 rifles, that's what they called them. And the rest of the weapons had

23 been withdrawn a few months prior to that to the barracks in Banja Luka.

24 The Territorial Defence had very few rifles left and most of them were

25 very old rifles, 50 years old.

1 Q. Witness AM, you have stated that your recollection was much better

2 in those days, which is perfectly understandable. Let me quote from page

3 11 of your statement.

4 "The Territorial Defence has distributed a number of weapons.

5 Part of those weapons had been illegally bought from Serbs. A number of

6 people had simply carried those weapons with them in the woods where they

7 were hiding themselves. Some of that weaponry was taken to Croatia, and

8 it is believed that the army of the Territorial Defence had about 400

9 automatic rifles and a few pieces of hand-held rocket launchers. One

10 individual from the army had to register the number of weapons possessed

11 by everyone. It was one of my neighbours and a commander of one of the

12 groups that I have mentioned before. He learnt that the Territorial

13 Defence had about 400 pieces of weapons."

14 A. I don't think I've ever said anything about hand-held rocket

15 launchers, and I don't think that I said that the weapons had gone to

16 Croatia. As regards the number, yes, that is familiar to me, 400 pieces

17 of weapons.

18 Q. In your statement, you also spoke about a great number of people

19 who had bought weapons. Was that the case? Was there any illegal traffic

20 of weapons at that time?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did you buy a rifle for yourself, in view of the circumstances?

23 A. Yes, I did.

24 Q. What kind of rifle was it?

25 A. It was an automatic rifle.

1 Q. Did you ever request a permit for that rifle?

2 A. No, I didn't.

3 Q. Do you know of any other similar cases, other people from your

4 community who acted the same way?

5 A. Well, if you have a number of 400 rifles, then you probably had

6 400 rifle owners, but I didn't know them personally.

7 Q. Witness AM, let me go back to Kole's and Ramiz's groups, as you

8 call them. When did they come into existence?

9 A. I couldn't tell you that.

10 Q. Well, could you perhaps situate it in time in respect of the

11 attack on Kozarac?

12 A. Well, then a couple of months before the attack.

13 Q. Thank you. In your statement, you stated that those groups had

14 killed some Serbs.

15 A. I don't know whether that is correct. I was never present at any

16 such incident.

17 Q. Let me go back once again to the beginning, and this will be the

18 end of my cross-examination.

19 As regards the ethnic composition of the people who were members

20 of those two paramilitary or military formations and the formation which

21 was created by Sead Cirkin, what was the ethnic composition of those

22 people?

23 A. Most of them were Muslims. There were several Croats there

24 perhaps. The Galiani people were also there but they were sitting on the

25 fence for a while. They didn't know which way to go. Finally they sided

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1 with the Serbs.

2 Q. As regards your transfer from Trnopolje to Omarska, how did that

3 occur?

4 A. Two individuals in uniform arrived in a car with the list of

5 people they were looking for. Five people were being looked for. They

6 found three people and three of us were taken to Omarska. This is how we

7 were transferred to Omarska.

8 Q. How were you taken there?

9 A. We were taken in a red Jugo 45 vehicle.

10 Q. You mentioned two individuals in uniform. Judging from their

11 uniforms, which group did they belong to? Were they members of the

12 police, of the army, or some other group?

13 A. I don't know exactly. They were not active duty soldiers or

14 active duty policemen, so I really wouldn't know which army they belonged

15 to.

16 Q. Does it mean that they were not members of the active police

17 force?

18 A. No, they were not active duty policemen.

19 Q. During the transport from Trnopolje to Omarska, were you

20 mistreated in any way?

21 A. No. We were only threatened while we were in Kozarusa. A man who

22 was at the checkpoint was looking for us. He wanted us to be taken out of

23 the car. He wanted to slaughter us, and he said that we didn't need any

24 interrogation, but that was all.

25 Q. That is, you were not mistreated or tied by your escort?

1 A. No, we were not.

2 Q. Thank you very much, Witness AM. This concludes my

3 cross-examination.

4 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Simic.

6 Mr. Toma Fila has the floor now. Your witness, Mr. Toma Fila.

7 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I shall be

8 brief.

9 Cross-examined by Mr. Fila:

10 Q. Good morning to you. My name is Mr. Toma Fila. I'm an attorney

11 from Belgrade, and together with my colleague, Jovanovic, I'm defence

12 counsel for Mladjo Radic.

13 If I understood you correctly, you described the events on the eve

14 of St. Peter's Day, and you were looking from the first room.

15 A. I can show you on the model.

16 Q. It is the room you showed the Prosecutor?

17 A. The office, no. Not from the office. I watched this event from

18 the office with the people from Hambarine.

19 Q. But the event on St. Peter's Day from another room. So you were

20 transferred there?

21 A. No. I could move freely between the office and that room along

22 the corridor of 20 metres or so. The distance was some 20 metres.

23 Q. You've confused me I'm afraid. Is it the room you find yourself

24 in after being transferred on the 12th of July?

25 A. From the 12th of July or, rather, two or three days later, I would

1 occasionally sleep in the office.

2 Q. And was it then when the event occurred with the fire?

3 A. It was on the 11th of July in the evening.

4 Q. So on today's day?

5 A. Yes, to be quite precise.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila, the interpreters are

7 asking you to make pauses, please.

8 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Where was the fire burning in relation to the "white house"?

10 A. In front of the "white house." Maybe a metre or two away. It

11 wasn't in front of the entrance. To one side.

12 Q. You said you recognised only one person called Marmat.

13 A. No. On that occasion I didn't recognise anyone. We're not

14 talking about the same incident.

15 Q. Then my question is why you didn't recognise anyone. In other

16 words --

17 A. I didn't know these people. I have never known them, with the

18 exception of this Marmat. It was quite dark, and I didn't know those

19 people. I could recognise Marmat because he had this exceptionally fair

20 hair and he was there.

21 Q. So the reason that you didn't recognise them was the fact that you

22 didn't know them and not poor visibility.

23 A. Well, visibility contributed to it, but you could see what men

24 were doing. You couldn't read any letters on them, but you could see what

25 an individual was doing.

1 Q. Did you give a statement to the Prosecutor on the 26th of August

2 and the 30th of August, 1994?

3 A. I did.

4 Q. Let me read you a passage: "Zivko Marmat was there throughout,

5 but I don't know whether he was next to the fire."

6 A. So?

7 Q. I see. So you abide by this statement?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. So the fire was lit that evening. What happened the next morning

10 when the fire stopped burning?

11 A. Nothing.

12 Q. Did you see any body there?

13 A. There was this pile left, the black ashes from the tyre, but what

14 was there, nobody went to look.

15 Q. This Cirkin, is his name Siad or Sead, or are there two people?

16 A. The man who knew him and who watched the event with me said he was

17 the brother of Captain Cirkic who wanted to organise the defence in

18 Kozarac. What his first name is, I really don't know. It was his

19 brother.

20 Q. When you were watching this fire of the truck tire, did anyone

21 else see that?

22 A. Yes. This man who told me the name of this man.

23 Q. What name is his? What is his name?

24 A. Muhamed Cirkic, known as Krimi.

25 Q. You spoke about food.

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. That you had to eat it up quickly.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You also said two groups wouldn't have time to eat.

5 A. Two groups that were the last in order, the order was changed

6 every day, and sometimes I was never the first to leave the room. I tried

7 to be the last so as not to wait long in queue, so there were times when

8 I, myself, got nothing to eat that day.

9 Q. But why didn't you have time to get your food?

10 A. The food ran out. They ran out of food. That was the answer we

11 were given.

12 Q. Was the reason why you had to eat quickly to give you all a chance

13 to eat?

14 A. I don't know what the reason was.

15 Q. You told us that your memory was fresher when you gave that

16 statement?

17 A. Certainly.

18 Q. Why in the statement then did you not mention that when you were

19 going to eat and coming back from your meals that you were beaten?

20 A. That statement, if I were to tell the whole story, would go on

21 indefinitely.

22 Q. "We went in groups of 30 because that is the number of plates and

23 cups they had." That's what you said in your statement?

24 A. Is that important?

25 Q. The Judges will judge whether it is important, not us. You said

1 you went in groups of 30 and that you couldn't see anyone.

2 A. While we were waiting, we had to face the wall on the other side

3 of this building. We had to face the wall. And while we were eating, you

4 had to eat quickly and have your head bent down and not look around.

5 Q. You spoke about this other event involving the people from

6 Hambarine.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You watched that incident from the office?

9 A. From the office, yes.

10 Q. What was the visibility like?

11 A. It was summertime.

12 Q. What time of day?

13 A. It was a nice clear night, a summer night. In the summer it's

14 never totally dark, and there was a light in front of the "white house,"

15 so you could see quite well. You couldn't recognise a face, but you could

16 see a group of people lying down, the shots being fired at those people.

17 This was readily visible.

18 Q. So you couldn't recognise a face?

19 A. No, not of the guards, with the exception of this Marmat who had

20 this exceptionally light-coloured hair, and he was the only one that I

21 could identify by his hair.

22 Q. Was there a light in front of the "red house" perhaps?

23 A. What side do you mean? From the way I was looking at it, in

24 front? Is that what you mean?

25 Q. Whichever side, there are four sides to a house. Was there a

1 light on any of those sides?

2 A. I do not remember.

3 Q. What part of the "red house" and the "white house" was in your

4 plane of vision?

5 A. I had the front facade of the "white house" and the backside of

6 the "red house."

7 Q. Could you explain then how you managed to see the bodies on all

8 four sides of the white house?

9 A. If you're looking through the window, you can see over the "white

10 house" bodies lying on the asphalt pista, and around the "white house" I

11 could see around the three sides. Most of the bodies lay between the

12 "white house" and the "red house" on the grass there.

13 Q. My last question: Were you personally beaten during your stay

14 there?

15 A. Only during my interrogation, and a couple of times I got a blow

16 as we ran for food. That was all.

17 Q. Thank you very much.

18 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. President.

19 A. You're welcome.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Piacente, do you have any

21 re-examination?

22 MR. PIACENTE: No thanks.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

24 Judge Riad.

25 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you, Mr. President.

1 Questioned by the Court:

2 JUDGE RIAD: Witness AM, can you hear me?

3 A. Yes.

4 JUDGE RIAD: I have a few questions, perhaps to see things more

5 clearly. You mentioned at the beginning of your testimony, that you had

6 to pay money in order not to be killed, I mean the detainees. Anybody

7 could have been killed if they didn't pay money, or were some people on

8 the list to be killed?

9 A. Some people were killed because of money, and there were lists

10 that were compiled on the basis of other criteria from which people would

11 be taken out, and from then on they would go missing to the present day.

12 JUDGE RIAD: So to your knowledge, some people were just killed

13 because they did not pay money?

14 A. That, among other things.

15 JUDGE RIAD: Now, you said that you had 15.000 Deutschemarks at

16 home, and you drew a diagram and they went, and they said they didn't find

17 it. What happened to you when they didn't find it, or was it just a

18 pretext and they did find it?

19 A. Nothing happened to me after that. I was told, "Apparently your

20 family has taken away your money." It's a shame they didn't find it, they

21 said, because they would have given me some to buy something to eat,

22 though I personally think that the money was found, because after that,

23 they never bothered me nor looked for me.

24 JUDGE RIAD: Now, with regard to St. Peter's Day and the bonfire

25 where they threw the large tyre. You saw, in fact, people thrown inside.

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1 You mentioned even Captain Cirkic's brother. Were you close enough to see

2 who it was?

3 A. The fire was a big one, and one could clearly see a man being

4 pushed into the fire. What the distance was, I couldn't say. You

5 couldn't see the face of the man, you could just see the silhouette of the

6 man. You could hear the screams very well.

7 JUDGE RIAD: Was it only one man, or was it several people thrown

8 in?

9 A. I was present when one was pushed in. What happened before that

10 and after that, I don't know, but the laughter and the screams could be

11 heard for a long time before I looked and after I had looked.

12 JUDGE RIAD: Laughter and screams at the same time?

13 A. Yes.

14 JUDGE RIAD: Now, speaking of the people you saw being shot

15 between the "white house" and the "red house," what you call the people

16 from Hambarine, what made you go out at night? Was it allowed for you

17 detainees to go and walk out, or did you hear voices to bring you out?

18 A. I didn't go out. I just woke up and raised my head a little to

19 look through the window to see what was happening outside.

20 JUDGE RIAD: And they were not far away from your window. Were

21 they close enough to see the whole incident?

22 A. The incident was more or less over when I woke up.

23 JUDGE RIAD: You mean you heard the shots.

24 A. Yes. That's what woke me up.

25 JUDGE RIAD: That's what woke you up. And you saw what you said,

1 "when the brains were like milk." You saw that too?

2 A. I did.

3 JUDGE RIAD: Clearly? You could see that clearly from your room?

4 A. I saw that quite clearly, white powder coming out of the head to

5 one side.

6 JUDGE RIAD: What part of the night was that? Was it ...

7 A. It was after midnight, about 2.00.

8 JUDGE RIAD: But there was enough light to see all of that?

9 A. Not for a hundred per cent clear visibility, but the number of

10 people you could see afterwards when they were loaded into the scoop and

11 onto the truck.

12 JUDGE RIAD: Did you see the loading too?

13 A. I did.

14 JUDGE RIAD: Now, also another question concerning what you call

15 the fatal transport to Trnopolje, and you were included in that

16 transport?

17 A. Did I say fatal for Trnopolje or for Manjaca?

18 JUDGE RIAD: Well, all right. You said Trnopolje and Manjaca.

19 A. I don't know which transport you want me to comment on.

20 JUDGE RIAD: All right. The transport where they brought people

21 down and they were being killed 50 metres away from the bus. Were you in

22 the bus?

23 A. Yes. That happened at Manjaca.

24 JUDGE RIAD: And you saw the killing or you heard the shots?

25 A. We were all forced to squat on a large field of grass, and then

1 these men were taken some 50 or 60 metres, away from us, next to the

2 buses, which were empty at the moment. Then we heard screams when those

3 men were beaten with various objects. This didn't last long. We had to

4 look to the ground and continue squatting there in that field.

5 JUDGE RIAD: These people were chosen from your bus?

6 A. I don't know who was in my bus that night. But anyway, when we

7 were all taken off the buses, then out of this large crowd of 1.500 people

8 maybe, they were selected from that large group.

9 JUDGE RIAD: You have no idea what was the basis of the

10 selection? Was it random or was it lists which were already prepared?

11 A. I don't know what it was really, but they were mostly well-known

12 persons, businessmen from Prijedor.

13 JUDGE RIAD: You mean -- what you call "well-known," is the people

14 among the elite of the society or among the militant who were fighting, if

15 you knew?

16 A. They were not fighters. They were business people.

17 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Judge Fouad

19 Riad.

20 Madam Judge Wald.

21 JUDGE WALD: Witness AM, you said that you actually saw one man,

22 though you didn't recognise him, being thrown into the fire or pushed into

23 the fire. That's right? You could actually --

24 A. Yes.

25 JUDGE WALD: -- see only one man.

1 A. Yes.

2 JUDGE WALD: And the next day, you said that you just saw ashes

3 there. You didn't see any burnt corpses or bodies, did you?

4 A. Yes.

5 JUDGE WALD: Did you see any persons or prisoners walking around

6 with any burns on them, any burnt prisoners?

7 A. I did not.

8 JUDGE WALD: Okay. During the period you were in Omarska, I think

9 over two months or something along those lines, during that period of

10 time, did you get to know any of the people in charge in Omarska, any of

11 the -- you mentioned Marmat as one guard. Did you know any of the other

12 guards or officials by name, nickname?

13 A. I heard from an active-duty policeman that his colleague from

14 work, an active-duty policeman, Kvocka by surname, was for a time the

15 commander, leader, warden, whatever you like, of the camp. Afterwards, he

16 was replaced. According to rumours among people who knew him, he

17 apparently was married to a Muslim, that he tried to protect a certain

18 number of Muslim people, and this was taken against him and he had to

19 leave his position. He was then replaced by another person surnamed

20 Meakic. I didn't know either of them before, nor in the camp, to be able

21 to identify them.

22 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

24 Judge Wald.

25 Witness AM, I only have one question for you. Is there something

1 that you would like to say and which still hasn't been asked of you?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like the people who

3 committed crimes in this war, regardless of which ethnicity they belong

4 to, be they Muslim, Serbs, or Croats, to be brought before justice and

5 punished as an example to future generations, for such things not to

6 happen again as happened to us.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We are all here to achieve that

8 goal and we share your wishes. I think there are no exhibits to be

9 tendered. I think that all the exhibits have already been tendered. So

10 I'm going to ask the usher to close the blinds before the witness leaves.

11 Just a moment. Excuse me. Mr. Simic?

12 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in line with the

13 decisions we have taken, I would have two or three questions, because

14 Their Honours, I think Judge Wald, touched a subject that was not touched

15 upon during the examination and cross-examination. So if I may be allowed

16 to ask a couple of additional questions.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You need additional information

18 from the witness?

19 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, linked to the

20 question by Her Honour, Judge Wald.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think the issue was very

22 lightly mentioned, but all right, please put your question.

23 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Cross-examined by Mr. K. Simic:

25 Q. Witness AM, in answer to a question by Judge Wald and by

1 Judge Riad, I would have a question for you.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, only the question of

3 Kvocka, not the question of money; that's over. We discussed the question

4 of money. So the question that you could legitimately ask has to do with

5 the mention of Mr. Kvocka by the witness, only that.

6 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. Witness AM, what was the name of the active-duty policeman who

8 gave you this information?

9 A. Hamdija Arifagic. He was working in Omarska, and his colleague

10 was Kvocka.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 A. You're welcome.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The Prosecutor. Do you have any

14 additional questions on this point?

15 MR. PIACENTE: No thanks.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Now the usher can

17 lower the blinds. Witness, you have finished your testimony. Thank you

18 very much for coming, and we wish you a safe journey to your place of

19 residence.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 [The witness withdrew]

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Hollis, if you please.

23 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, the next witness will testify in open

24 session, and it's Nusret Sivac.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm looking at the clock, and if

1 we begin now with the testimony, then the break is very shortly. If we

2 have a half-hour break now, then we have another hour and a half to work,

3 which is quite acceptable. So maybe this is a good time to have a break

4 and then we will resume after that, after a half-hour break.

5 --- Recess taken at 12.25 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at 1.00 p.m.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. You may be seated.

8 [The witness entered court]

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Nusret Sivac, can you hear

10 me?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Could you please read the solemn

13 declaration now.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

15 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

16 WITNESS: NUSRET SIVAC

17 [Witness answered through interpreter]

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated. Are you

19 comfortable, sir?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I am.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well then. You're now

22 going to answer questions that will be put to you by Madam Hollis.

23 Madam Hollis, you have the floor.

24 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Examined by Ms. Hollis:

1 Q. Sir, for the record, would you please state your name?

2 A. My name is Nusret Sivac.

3 Q. What is your date of birth and your place of birth?

4 A. I was born on the 19th of August, 1947 in Prijedor.

5 Q. What is your ethnicity?

6 A. I'm a Bosniak Muslim.

7 Q. From 1973 until 1989, did you work in Prijedor for the police?

8 A. Yes. I worked for the public security service.

9 Q. And did you work in the communications centre?

10 A. Yes, I did. It was called the centre for communications and

11 crypto-security.

12 Q. And what were your duties there?

13 A. That is one of the key departments of the public security

14 service.

15 Q. And, sir, what did you do there?

16 A. I was an operative.

17 Q. I'm sorry, I don't understand operative. What exactly did you

18 do?

19 A. In the communications centre, the main area of activity were

20 written communications which were conducted through various types of

21 messages and memoranda. The communication with other Security Services on

22 the area of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the former Yugoslavia was also

23 carried out through radio communications and special telephone

24 communications which were part of that communications centre.

25 Q. So you were one of the operators for that communication.

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1 A. Yes, I was.

2 Q. Did you know a policeman by the name of Miroslav Kvocka?

3 A. Yes, I did.

4 Q. How long had you known him in 1992?

5 A. I knew him well enough. He came to work for the security service

6 in Prijedor some ten years. That is, I'd known him for about ten years

7 before 1991.

8 Q. And how often would you have contact with him?

9 A. Well, as much as I needed to contact him for my work.

10 Q. Did you know his wife and her family?

11 A. I knew her much better than I knew him. He was born on the same

12 street and we grew up together in the same street.

13 Q. And did you know her brothers?

14 A. Yes, I knew them very well.

15 Q. Did you know a woman by the name of Slavica Lakic?

16 A. Yes, I did.

17 Q. And did she work at the Prijedor police station?

18 A. Yes. She was a secretary and typist, and she worked at the public

19 security service in Prijedor.

20 Q. And during the time you worked at the public security service, did

21 you ever see Slavica Lakic and Kvocka come to work together or leave work

22 together?

23 A. Yes, from time to time.

24 Q. Did you know a policeman by the name of Mladjo Radic?

25 A. Yes, I did.

1 Q. And how long had you known him?

2 A. I knew him for much longer than I knew Kvocka. I knew him in 1983

3 when I joined the public security service.

4 Q. Sorry, you joined the public security service in 1983 or 1973?

5 A. 1973.

6 Q. How frequently would you have contact with Mladjo Radic?

7 A. Well, I would see him as often as I needed to see him for my work,

8 for the work that we did together.

9 Q. Was he known by any nickname?

10 A. Krkan.

11 Q. Did you know a man by the name of Drago Prcac?

12 A. Yes, I did.

13 Q. And how did you know him?

14 A. I knew him in 1973, when I came to work for the public security

15 service.

16 Q. And to your knowledge, what was his position in the police?

17 A. He worked in the crime department. He was a crime technician. He

18 would conduct on-site investigations.

19 Q. How often would you have contact with him?

20 A. Very often, as often as the nature of our work required.

21 Q. During the time period 1973 to 1989, did you also work as a

22 cameraman for the local television station and sometimes write articles

23 for the local media?

24 A. Yes, I did.

25 Q. During that time, did Drago Prcac ever ask you to film programmes

1 about Omarska?

2 A. Yes, he did, on one or two occasions. Upon his recommendation, we

3 went there and we made a programme about the life and the work of people

4 in the village of Omarska.

5 Q. Did you observe the attitude of the people of that area towards

6 Mr. Prcac?

7 A. The people there, like myself, had a great deal of respect for

8 Drago Prcac.

9 Q. Did you know a policeman by the name of Zeljko Meakic.

10 A. Yes, I did.

11 Q. And how long did you know him?

12 A. I knew him because we worked together for the security service.

13 He worked as a policeman in the police station in Omarska most of that

14 time.

15 Q. Why did you leave the police in 1989?

16 A. Because of the atmosphere that had been created in the

17 communications centre. In other words, the then chief of the

18 communications centre wanted to cleanse ethnically that most vital part of

19 the security service.

20 Q. And who was this chief?

21 A. The chief was Milos Jankovic.

22 Q. And you say that he wanted to cleanse this communications centre

23 ethnically. What groups did he want to rid the centre of?

24 A. Of Bosniak Muslims.

25 Q. After you left the police and until April of 1992, did you

1 continue to work as a cameraman and sometimes write articles for the local

2 media?

3 A. Yes, I did.

4 Q. And did you continue to cover the events that were happening in

5 opstina Prijedor?

6 A. Yes, I did.

7 Q. Did you know a man named Dule Jankovic?

8 A. Yes, I did.

9 Q. And how did you know him?

10 A. We worked together at the security service in Prijedor.

11 Q. And in 1992, if you know, what was his position?

12 A. He was the police commander in Prijedor.

13 Q. Now, if you know, based on your observations, did Mr. Jankovic

14 work in cooperation with the SDS?

15 A. Yes, he did.

16 Q. Did you know a man by the name of Marko Dzenadija?

17 A. I did.

18 Q. And how did you know him?

19 A. He too was an employee of the security service.

20 Q. If you know, what was his position in 1992?

21 A. I think that he was the deputy commander of the traffic police.

22 Q. Based on your observations, if you know, did Mr. Dzenadija work in

23 cooperation with the SDS?

24 A. Yes, he did.

25 Q. In 1992, where did you live?

1 A. In Prijedor.

2 Q. And in 1992, were you married?

3 A. Yes, I was.

4 Q. Did you have children?

5 A. I had two children.

6 Q. And what were their ages?

7 A. My daughter was 11 and my son was 6 years old.

8 Q. What property did you have in 1992?

9 A. I had a large apartment in the very centre of the Prijedor town,

10 and I had a cottage house with a two-hectare orchard some kilometres away

11 from Prijedor.

12 Q. Did you also have a vehicle in 1992?

13 A. Yes, I did. I had a Ford Escort.

14 Q. I'd like to draw your attention to the 10th of June of 1992. Were

15 you arrested on that date?

16 A. Yes, I was.

17 Q. By whom were you arrested?

18 A. I was arrested by Bato Kovacevic and a reserve policeman whom we

19 referred to as Brkan.

20 Q. And were you taken to the SUP and then from there to Keraterm?

21 A. Yes, I was.

22 Q. What other people were taken to Keraterm with you?

23 A. Together with me in the police van was a judge from the municipal

24 court in Prijedor, Omer Kerenovic, and a private caterer, Safet

25 Ramadanovic, and Ivica Muntijan was there as well.

1 Q. Ivica Muntijan, what was his ethnicity?

2 A. He was a Croat.

3 Q. And what was his occupation?

4 A. He was a doorman at the court.

5 Q. While you were in Keraterm, did you hear a list of names being

6 called out?

7 A. Yes, I did.

8 Q. And if you know, this list of names was people from what area?

9 A. From Kozarac.

10 Q. Now, after this list of names were called out, were these people

11 and you and the others you have named taken to Omarska?

12 A. Yes, we were.

13 Q. Could you tell the Judges what happened when you first arrived in

14 Omarska?

15 A. When we first arrived in Omarska, we had to undergo the admission

16 procedure of detainees in the camp. We didn't know what it looked like.

17 Q. Did you -- I'm sorry. Go ahead, please.

18 A. Guards approached the police van at one point, and one of them --

19 later on I heard it was their boss, his name was Krkan -- took a list --

20 took the list from Tomislav Stojakvic, who had brought us to Omarska, and

21 he ordered the guards to start taking out the people from the rear part of

22 the police van.

23 Q. And these people that were taken out from the rear part of the

24 police van, what happened to them?

25 A. They were lined up against a wall and beaten.

1 Q. What happened then?

2 A. I don't know how, but Miroslav Kvocka appeared. He took the lists

3 that had been handed over to him by Tomislav Stojakovic, the one who had

4 driven us there, and he took the list somewhere in the administration

5 building.

6 Q. And who was it who gave the list to Kvocka?

7 A. Krle.

8 Q. Now, you testified just a moment ago that when you first arrived,

9 the driver gave a list to a man you later learned was the boss Krkan. Was

10 Krkan there when you first arrived?

11 A. No. I'm sorry, I said that Krle had been there.

12 Q. So Krle was there, took the list, and then gave the list to Kvocka

13 when Kvocka appeared; is that correct?

14 A. Yes, that is correct.

15 Q. Now, once Kvocka got the list, what did Kvocka do?

16 A. He went to the administration building.

17 Q. And what happened after that?

18 A. Approximately three groups of detainees from Keraterm were taken

19 in groups of three or four. They were lined up against a wall and then

20 beaten with various batons and clubs. Then one by one they were taken to

21 the back part of the camp. I don't know where they were being taken to.

22 Q. And what happened after that?

23 A. After that, a guard ordered us to get out of the police van.

24 Q. And after you got out of the police van, then what happened?

25 A. Tomislav Stojakvic handed over the list to Krle again, the list

1 containing our names who were in this last group to have arrived.

2 Q. And then what happened?

3 A. Meanwhile, Kvocka came. He took the list and again he went to the

4 administration building.

5 Q. And after he went to the administration building, then what

6 occurred?

7 A. After that, the guards took us towards the wall. They first

8 ordered us to take off our shoelaces, our belts, to take out all valuables

9 from our pockets, and Safet Ramadanovic, who was standing next to me, took

10 out some money that he had on him, and the chief whose name I learned

11 later on as being Krle, he said to him, "Cifut, you haven't brought us

12 enough money. You will have to bring more to us. We have our methods."

13 Q. Now, this name Cifut, is that a particular nickname? Does that

14 have any particular significance?

15 A. It is a derogatory name for a person who likes money.

16 Q. Then what happened after this?

17 A. Well, we simply had to stand against the wall, and they started to

18 beat us.

19 Q. Then what happened?

20 A. While they were beating us, our faces were facing the wall, and I

21 don't know how long it took. I remember the moment when I heard Kvocka's

22 voice. He shouted all of a sudden, "Who brought Nusret Sivac to the

23 camp?" At that moment, the guards stopped beating us and we turned

24 around, and Kvocka came to Tomislav Stojakovic and Brane Bolta, who had

25 taken us from Prijedor, and he told them, "Why have you brought Mr. Sivac

1 here? We need his sister, Nusreta Sivac, who used to work as a judge in

2 the court in Prijedor."

3 Q. And after he said that, what happened?

4 A. Then Tomo Stojakvic who had brought us there asked him, "What am I

5 going to do with him?" He said, "Wait a second. I'm going to see Mico,

6 the boss. I'll ask him what to do."

7 Q. You said that Tomo asked, "What am I going to do with him?" Whom

8 did he ask that of?

9 A. He addressed that question to Miroslav Kvocka.

10 Q. And you testified that he said, "Wait a second. I'm going to see

11 Mico, the boss." Who said that?

12 A. Kvocka said, "I'm going upstairs to see Mico, the boss, to see

13 what we are supposed to do with him." I apologise. His name is actually

14 Ranko Mijic. That is his full name.

15 Q. And, sir, what happened after that?

16 A. After several minutes, Kvocka came back and he said, "Mijic said

17 that you should take him back to Prijedor."

18 Q. And is that what happened, you were taken back to Prijedor?

19 A. Yes, I was.

20 Q. Now, that day when you saw Miroslav Kvocka in Omarska camp, do you

21 recall what he was wearing?

22 A. He was wearing a dark blue camouflage uniform.

23 Q. And do you recall anything else about what he was wearing?

24 A. That's all I remember. Yes, and he also had a dark blue beret.

25 Q. Do you recall what kind of weapon, if any, he was carrying on that

1 day?

2 A. He would typically carry the pump-action rifle, the so-called

3 pump-action rifle.

4 Q. Now I'd like to direct your attention to on or about the 23rd of

5 June. Were you arrested on that date?

6 A. Yes, I was.

7 Q. And by whom were you arrested on that date?

8 A. Again by the same individuals, by Ranko Kovacic, Bato.

9 Q. Were you then taken to the SUP?

10 A. Yes, I was.

11 Q. And what other arrested persons, if any, did you see there?

12 A. I saw Sifeta Susic there, together with Ago Sadikovic, and Dr.

13 Osman Mahmuljin. Tesma Elezovic was there as well.

14 Q. Did you know Ago Sadikovic?

15 A. Yes, I knew him for very long.

16 Q. And what was his ethnicity?

17 A. He was a Bosniak Muslim.

18 Q. What was his age, if you know?

19 A. He was around 40 years of age.

20 Q. And what was his occupation?

21 A. He was an employee of the security service, and he was working at

22 the crime department.

23 Q. You also mentioned a Tesma Elezovic. Did you know her?

24 A. Yes, I did.

25 Q. What was her ethnicity?

1 A. She was a Bosniak Muslim.

2 Q. And what was her occupation, if you know?

3 A. She was managing a restaurant on the Kozora Mountain.

4 Q. While you were in the SUP on this day, did you also see a young

5 boy being held there?

6 A. Yes, I did.

7 Q. And what was this young boy's name?

8 A. Samir Malovcic.

9 Q. What was his age?

10 A. Later on, while we were talking, he told us that he was thirteen

11 and a half.

12 Q. And if you know, what was his ethnicity?

13 A. He was a Bosniak Muslim.

14 Q. Now, while you were held at the SUP, were you men and this young

15 boy beaten there?

16 A. They beat all the men, with the exception of Sifeta Susic, and

17 Tesma Elezovic.

18 Q. So this young boy was also beaten?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Then were the group of you taken to Omarska camp?

21 A. Yes, we were.

22 Q. What happened when you arrived at Omarska camp?

23 A. The police van parked behind the restaurant, between the

24 restaurant and the "white house." The first to get off was Sifeta Susic,

25 and Tesma Elezovic, and they were taken away somewhere. Then from the

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1 back part of the van they ordered to us get off. However, Dr. Osman

2 Mahmuljin was in such bad shape that he couldn't get up. Then I and Ago

3 Sadikovic and this young boy had to carry Dr. Osman out of the police van

4 and lean him against the wall of the restaurant.

5 Q. What happened after you leaned him against the wall of the

6 restaurant.

7 A. He couldn't stand and he simply fell to his knees.

8 Q. What happened to you all after that?

9 A. They started to beat us for a short while, and then we were facing

10 the wall, and then someone said -- one of the guards said, "These have had

11 enough for today. We won't beat them any longer today."

12 Q. Now, when you first arrived at Omarska on this date and you were

13 taken from the van, did you see anyone there that you recognised among the

14 camp personnel?

15 A. I did.

16 Q. And who was that?

17 A. I recognised again Milojica Kos, Krle, who was again the shift

18 leader.

19 Q. And on that occasion, what, if anything, did Krle say to you?

20 A. Yes. He said, "So you've come again but this time it's not by

21 mistake."

22 Q. Now, after these beatings had ended, where were you taken?

23 A. To the garage.

24 Q. And this garage was in what building?

25 A. The garage was underneath the administration building.

1 Q. How long were you held in this garage?

2 A. For seven days.

3 Q. Did you see a man by the name of Muhamed Cehajic?

4 A. I did.

5 Q. What was his ethnicity?

6 A. A Bosniak Muslim.

7 Q. And if you know, what political positions did he hold in opstina

8 Prijedor?

9 A. Yes. He was president of the municipality of Prijedor.

10 Q. Was he also held in this garage with you?

11 A. He was.

12 Q. What was his condition when you saw him in the garage?

13 A. He was in a very bad state.

14 Q. Can you describe for the Judges what you mean by that?

15 A. He was standing right next to the metal doors, to the left of the

16 door. There were traces of mistreatment and beatings on his face. He was

17 very sick. The inmates around him helped him to urinate, and he would

18 urinate into a bottle that he had at his side, and I could see that there

19 was blood in his urine.

20 Q. Now, this first day that you were held in the garage, do you

21 recall Muhamed Cehajic being called out of the garage?

22 A. Yes, in the evenings.

23 Q. Did you come to know the name or nickname of the person who called

24 him out?

25 A. It was my first contact with that guard. He was short, well

1 built. He had his sleeves rolled up as well as his trousers. He had fair

2 hair, and he wore some strange red glasses.

3 Q. And was he known by any nickname?

4 A. I don't know, but we called him Zuti or the "yellow" one.

5 Q. Did you come to learn what shift he worked on?

6 A. I think in Ckalja's shift.

7 Q. Now, what happened or what did you hear after this man called

8 Muhamed Cehajic out?

9 A. When Professor Cehajic went out, we could hear blows, screams,

10 moans. We heard the blows. This went on I don't know exactly for how

11 long. After awhile, the door was opened and the president of the

12 municipality, Cehajic, appeared in the doorway with his head covered in

13 blood, and he said, "They ordered me to collect a hundred German marks.

14 If I don't do that, they'll kill me this evening."

15 Q. Were you able to collect this 100 Deutschemarks?

16 A. We didn't because we didn't have any on us, neither did the people

17 we found in the garage when we arrived. But Dr. Osman Mahmuljin had a

18 hundred German marks hidden somewhere, and he gave them to Muhamed

19 Cehajic, and so he saved his life, the professor's life, that evening.

20 Q. After Muhamed Cehajic was given the money, did he then give it to

21 someone?

22 A. Yes. He went outside, he left the garage, and again blows were

23 heard outside, which means that he was beaten again, but after awhile he

24 returned. Right close to the doorway he fell, and the detainees who were

25 near the door helped him come in and led him to the place where he was

1 before.

2 Q. Now, during this seven days or so that you were held in the

3 garage, was Muhamed Cehajic called out on other occasions?

4 A. Almost every day and every night.

5 Q. And when he would come back, what would be his condition?

6 A. Very, very bad.

7 Q. When he would come back, would you see fresh signs of beating?

8 A. Yes. There were always fresh signs of beating. Towards the end

9 of the time I was in the garage, they even tore up the jacket he was

10 wearing.

11 Q. You've testified that 100 Deutschemarks was demanded of Muhamed

12 Cehajic. During the time that you were in the garage, were demands made

13 of other detainees for money or other valuables?

14 A. Almost every night.

15 Q. And what amounts of money or what valuables were demanded?

16 A. They demanded watches most, especially Seiko watches; German

17 marks; US dollars; gold; and anything else of value.

18 Q. Who was it who made these demands?

19 A. Usually the guards.

20 Q. What would happen if you couldn't meet their demands?

21 A. Well, mostly they would take us out and beat us.

22 Q. And on what shifts did these demands and these beatings occur?

23 A. Almost in all the shifts, but mostly in the shift whose leader was

24 Mladjo Radic, Krkan.

25 Q. Now, after about seven days in the garage, were you taken out for

1 interrogation?

2 A. I was.

3 Q. Were you beaten during this interrogation?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Did you sign any kind of statement during this interrogation?

6 A. I did not.

7 Q. Was any kind of statement read to you?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Now, after this interrogation, were you held on the pista?

10 A. I was.

11 Q. And how long were you held there?

12 A. Until about the second half of July.

13 Q. After that, were you able to get into Mujo's room and stay there?

14 A. I was.

15 Q. And how long did you stay in Mujo's room?

16 A. Until the 6th of August, when I was transferred to the camp in

17 Trnopolje.

18 Q. Sir, thinking back to the 10th of June when you were first taken

19 to the Omarska camp, when you came to the camp did you see a flag of any

20 sort flying at the camp?

21 A. Yes. Very close to the garage there were the masts and on them

22 was a large flag of the SDS.

23 Q. When you were brought back to the camp on about the 23rd of June

24 and held in the camp thereafter, did you see this flag during that time

25 period as well?

1 A. I did. It was there throughout the period we stayed in the camp.

2 Q. Now, I'd like to ask you some questions about camp personnel. You

3 have testified that on the 10th of June, you saw Miroslav Kvocka.

4 A. I did.

5 Q. Now, from the time that you were taken back to Omarska on about

6 the 23rd of June until 6 August, during that time period did you ever see

7 Kvocka in Omarska camp?

8 A. I did.

9 Q. How often did you see him in the camp during this time period?

10 A. When I was on the pista, I would see him every second or third

11 day. When I went to Mujo's room, I only saw him a couple of times when we

12 went to the restaurant to eat.

13 Q. Now, on these occasions when you saw Kvocka in the camp, where

14 would he be when you saw him?

15 A. Usually he would be standing in the corridor which led to the

16 restaurant and near the door that led to the "glass house."

17 MS. HOLLIS: If the witness could please be provided with 3/77A.

18 Q. Sir, I'd like you to look at this for a moment, this diagram, to

19 orient yourself.

20 MS. HOLLIS: If that could be put on the ELMO, please.

21 Q. Now, first of all, just to be clear for the record, you talked

22 about being held in the garage for seven days. Would you point to the

23 area you called the garage?

24 A. It's this area here, A1.

25 Q. And you talked about be held in Mujo's room. Would you point to

1 that area?

2 A. This is, I think, A9.

3 Q. All right. Now, the times that you would see Kvocka in the camp

4 during this second period of time that you were held in the camp, you said

5 you would see him in the corridor. Could you show the Judges where it is

6 that you would see him?

7 A. Once here in A13 where the steps led upstairs to where the

8 interrogations took place, and once I saw him here too, in front of A15

9 and A16, in the area marked A13. Then I saw him once here in the area

10 marked A22, in front of the area marked A14.

11 Q. And this area marked A14, what was that area called?

12 A. The "glass house."

13 Q. Thank you.

14 MS. HOLLIS: And the usher may take the exhibit back.

15 Q. Now, during the times you saw him in Omarska, what would Kvocka be

16 doing?

17 A. Kvocka was usually with a soldier who was like his escort, who

18 always stood behind his back. He was well built, with a short cut, and he

19 would usually talk to someone.

20 Q. And what would he wear on these occasions when you saw him?

21 A. He would be wearing a camouflage uniform, and with his pump-action

22 rifle which he held like this, with gloves, leather gloves, black leather

23 gloves with the fingers cut off on top, at the end.

24 Q. Now, earlier you said that you saw him on the 10th of June in a

25 blue or a dark blue camouflage uniform. The camouflage uniform you saw

1 him in on these other occasions, was it also a dark blue uniform?

2 A. Mostly, yes.

3 Q. The times that you saw him in Omarska camp, what did you observe

4 about the conduct of other camp personnel toward him?

5 A. He had authority in relation to them.

6 Q. And what was it you observed to make you say that?

7 A. The guards looked up to him, treated him with respect, and also by

8 the detainees with whom he stopped to talk.

9 Q. Now, you have testified that you knew his wife's brothers. Did

10 you ever see them in Omarska?

11 A. I did.

12 Q. Where were they held in Omarska?

13 A. Usually in the "glass house."

14 Q. Did you ever see Kvocka talking with any of them?

15 A. Yes. He would take one of them out and talk to him, precisely the

16 area I have indicated.

17 Q. Now, when you saw him take one of them out and talk to this

18 person, did you ever observe Kvocka ask anyone's permission to do this?

19 A. I did not.

20 Q. You've also testified about a man. You said you later learned his

21 name was Krle, and his proper name was Kos.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. When did you first learn that this man's nickname was Krle?

24 A. When I was held at the pista.

25 Q. And how did you learn that?

1 A. From the detainees who had arrived before me.

2 Q. How was it they were able to tell you that this man's nickname was

3 Krle?

4 A. I don't know, but among them was Muharem Murselovic, a man who was

5 Krle's teacher in the catering school in Prijedor.

6 Q. And you said that you learned that his proper name was Kos. From

7 whom did you learn that?

8 A. From Muharem Murselovic.

9 Q. Would you describe this Krle as you saw him in Omarska in 1992?

10 A. Well, usually he was wearing olive-grey military trousers, and as

11 a rule, he just wore an undervest, an athletic T-shirt. To me he looked

12 well built. And he regularly carried a light machine-gun.

13 Q. Do you recall what colour his hair was?

14 A. I think it was brown. He always had a short cut with a kind of

15 fringe, which was quite typical.

16 Q. Do you recall what his height was?

17 A. About 180, as far as I was able to judge. About 180, 185. I

18 don't know.

19 Q. Were you able to judge about what age group he was in?

20 A. He was young, I think, about 25. Anyway, between 20 and 30.

21 Q. While you were in Omarska, how often would you see Krle?

22 A. While I was at the pista, I would see him frequently. When I went

23 to Mujo's room, then only when I went for meals or when we were taken out

24 to spend a few minutes outside on the pista.

25 Q. What areas of the camp would you see him in? Where would he be?

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1 A. Most frequently in front of the entrance to the administration

2 building, but I would also see him touring the guards at their posts

3 around the administration building and over there near the hangar.

4 Q. Now, you have testified that Krle was a shift commander. Did you

5 come to understand the schedule of shifts at Omarska?

6 A. Yes, more or less.

7 Q. What was that schedule?

8 A. They changed every 12 hours, I think.

9 Q. What was it that you saw or heard that led you to the conclusion

10 that Krle was a shift commander?

11 A. All the things he did showed that he was coordinating, and he gave

12 instructions to the guards who were around him.

13 Q. Now, were you ever present when he gave orders to the guards?

14 A. I was not, but I could see it well from the pista.

15 Q. When you were held on the pista, if a person wanted to go from one

16 area to another, who would they have to ask permission of?

17 A. They would have to ask permission from the guards who were usually

18 there at the pista.

19 Q. And when they asked permission of the guards, what would the

20 guards tell them that they had to do?

21 A. That they would have to ask the shift leader.

22 Q. Did you ever see who that shift leader was they would then go to?

23 A. The shift leader was Krle, and then on another occasion Krkan, and

24 also Ckalja.

25 Q. Do you recall an occasion, while you were being held on the pista,

1 when there were too many men to fit into the restaurant building for the

2 night?

3 A. I do remember it well.

4 Q. And what happened on that occasion regarding the men who couldn't

5 fit into the restaurant building?

6 A. Krle came and ordered all those who couldn't enter the restaurant

7 and who were at the glass windows leading to the restaurant to line-up in

8 this part of the pista between the restaurant and the "white house" and to

9 be taken to sleep in the hangar.

10 Q. Were you one of those taken to sleep in the hangar?

11 A. I was.

12 Q. Now, you have mentioned two other shifts, Krkan's shift and

13 Ckalja's shift. How would you characterise the treatment of detainees on

14 all of these shifts?

15 A. In all shifts, the prisoners were mistreated, called out, taken

16 out. They wouldn't come back, which means that they were executed. But

17 somehow in Krkan's shift, things were the worst.

18 Q. When you refer to this man Krkan, who is the man you're referring

19 to? What's his proper name?

20 A. Mladjo Radic, known as Krkan.

21 Q. How often did you see him while you were at the Omarska camp?

22 A. Very frequently while I was at the pista.

23 Q. And when you saw him, where would he be?

24 A. He would also coordinate and talk to the guards, but most

25 frequently he would be at the steps next to this large glass window, and

1 through it he observed the prisoners on the pista.

2 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honours, at this time, I would ask that the

3 exhibit that I have marked 3/13 [sic] be provided to the witness. I have

4 copies for Your Honours. I believe that we have previously provided

5 copies of this to the Defence, but if this copy could be shown to the

6 Defence to ensure that we have.

7 Your Honours, if I misspoke, it's 3/113, 113.

8 If the witness could be shown that, please.

9 Q. Sir, if you'd take a moment to look at that, and then if it could

10 be placed on the ELMO.

11 Now, you talked about seeing Krkan most frequently at the steps

12 next to a large glass window where he was observing the prisoners. Could

13 you show the Judges what area you're talking about?

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Ms. Hollis. I think

15 there seems to be a technical problem with the ELMO. We have lost the

16 picture, so we cannot see what you're talking about. It's still not

17 there.

18 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, perhaps while they're trying to correct

19 that, we could go on with the questioning.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. I think that's a good

21 suggestion, Ms. Hollis. You can ask that question later when the

22 technicians repair the problem. So please go ahead.

23 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Q. Sir, in addition to this area where this large glass area was,

25 what areas of the camp would you see Krkan in?

1 A. As I told you, he would tour the guards' positions. He would go

2 towards the"white house" or the hangar where the guards were stationed and

3 where we, the detainees, were put up.

4 Q. And when you saw him, what we be doing?

5 A. He would be giving instructions to the guards, who would then

6 separate the detainees, those who had to go clean something or perform

7 some other manual work in the camp.

8 Q. Now, you've referred to the shift as Krkan's shift. What was his

9 position, if you know?

10 A. He was a shift leader.

11 Q. What did you see or hear to lead you to conclude that he was a

12 shift leader?

13 A. I could tell it by the way he behaved. The guards had to obey him

14 and had to comply with his orders.

15 Q. Did you come to recognise any of the guards who worked on Krkan's

16 shift?

17 A. Yes, I did.

18 Q. And today, do you recall the names or nicknames of any of those

19 guards?

20 A. I remember certain nicknames such as Pop, Sole, Paspalj, Savic.

21 I've forgotten others.

22 Q. When you say "Paspalj," to your knowledge is that a nickname or a

23 real name?

24 A. I think it's a surname.

25 Q. And "Savic," to your knowledge, that a nickname or a proper name?

1 A. It's a surname.

2 Q. Now, this guard Pop and Sole, where would you say them most often

3 in the camp?

4 A. Usually they would be standing across from the entrance to the

5 Mujo's room, but very often he would also come to the area leading up to

6 the administration building.

7 Q. When you say "very often he would also come to the area leading up

8 to the administration building," who are you talking about?

9 A. Pop, about Pop, the guards, and Sole.

10 Q. And the guards Paspalj and Savic, where would you see them?

11 A. Most often they would be at the entrance near the staircase

12 leading to the restaurant and the administration building where the

13 interrogations were conducted.

14 Q. Now, you have testified that Krkan's shift stood out among the

15 shifts as perhaps being the worst shift. What would happen on his shift

16 to lead you to say that?

17 A. During the time when Krkan's shift was on duty, most of the people

18 would be taken out, mistreated, beaten up, valuables would be seized such

19 as watches, gold, money. They did it openly and in a very rough way.

20 They didn't try to hide it.

21 Q. Did you ever see Krkan himself engage in any of this conduct such

22 as calling people out?

23 A. Yes, I did. He would sometimes call people out. He would do so

24 from the area in front of the entrance.

25 Q. In front of the entrance to what?

1 A. To the administration building where the interrogations were

2 conducted.

3 Q. Now, these people who were called out, did all of them come back

4 after these call-outs?

5 A. Some came back and some came back in bags or blankets.

6 Q. And you said some came back in blankets or bags. What would be

7 their condition?

8 A. They would be either badly beaten up or simply dead.

9 Q. Now, we spoke a little bit earlier about Krle's shift. Did you

10 come to recognise any of the guards on Krle's shift?

11 A. Yes, I did, one guard in particular, who would very often be in

12 the area between the restaurant and the "white house."

13 Q. Today can you recall the names or nicknames of any of those

14 guards?

15 A. It's hard for me to recall. Not really.

16 Q. Thank you. Sir, you've also talked about Ckalja's shift. How did

17 you come to know who Ckalja was?

18 A. I first came to know Ckalja, unfortunately, in the Omarska camp.

19 Q. How was it that you knew that this particular person was called

20 Ckalja?

21 A. From the detainees who had arrived before me and who had spent

22 some time on the pista.

23 Q. And how often would you see Ckalja in the camp?

24 A. Likewise, very often. He walked around the camp more often than

25 other shift leaders.

1 Q. Did you come to recognise guards who worked on his shift?

2 A. I came to know Zeljko Marmat "Zuti" and a person by the surname of

3 Pavlic, I think.

4 Q. Did you ever see Drago Prcac in Omarska?

5 A. Yes, I did.

6 Q. And how often would you see him in Omarska?

7 A. At the beginning, not very often. However, later on I saw him on

8 a number of occasions.

9 Q. And in what areas of the camp would you see him?

10 A. Well, he too would come down and tour the rooms where the

11 detainees were put up, but most often I would see him in the room which

12 had an antenna on one of its windows, an antenna that served to establish

13 radio communications. That room was above Mujo's room.

14 Q. When you would see Prcac in the camp, what would he be doing?

15 A. I don't know exactly, but in the month of July, he carried some

16 kind of lists, carried them around, and sometimes he would read out names

17 from those lists and sometimes he would give them to the guards to read

18 out the names. People who were taken out from Mujo's room, from the

19 pista, or from the garage would be then lined up on the area in front of

20 the building, in front of the pista. Then a kind of selection would take

21 place. Some people would move from the garage to the hangar and the other

22 way round.

23 Q. Do you recall an occasion in Omarska where you saw Drago Prcac

24 with a cameraman that you recognised?

25 A. Yes. It was Slavisa Djukanovic.

1 Q. When you saw Prcac and this other man on that occasion, what were

2 they doing?

3 A. They were filming something around the camp.

4 Q. And in what areas of the camp did you see them filming?

5 A. At the beginning, they were in the area between the restaurant and

6 the "white house," and after that they moved to the area between the

7 hangar and the "white house," and after that they went to the area behind

8 the hangar.

9 Q. If you know, what was Drago Prcac's position in the camp?

10 A. According to what I know, he was the deputy commander of the

11 Omarska camp.

12 Q. What did you see or hear in the camp to lead you to conclude

13 that?

14 A. At that time, that is, from mid-July or thereabouts, for all the

15 work that needed to be done, and when I say that I'm referring to the

16 permissions for transfer of detainees from one room to another, a guard

17 had to be approached. Then the guard would usually say that he had to go

18 and see Drago Prcac and to ask if that could be done.

19 Q. Do you recall an occasion when Mujo wanted to bring a prisoner

20 from the "white house" into Mujo's room?

21 A. Yes, I recall it very well.

22 Q. What did Mujo have to do to bring this prisoner from the "white

23 house" into Mujo's room?

24 A. He asked a guard whether he could go to the "white house," because

25 during the day a person by the name of Smail Duratovic, who had been taken

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1 out from the restaurant, was beaten up there, and he was in Mujo's room

2 together with his father. One of the women passed on a message saying

3 that if Mujo doesn't come to fetch Smail Duratovic in the"white house,"

4 that the latter would be liquidated during the night.

5 Q. Now, from whom did Mujo have to get permission to bring Smail to

6 Mujo's room?

7 A. First he had to approach the guard who was there in the area

8 outside Mujo's room, and the guard said, "You have to wait. I have to go

9 and ask Prcac about that."

10 Q. Was this transfer allowed?

11 A. Yes, it was.

12 Q. When this man came into Mujo's room, could you see what his

13 condition was?

14 A. He was in a poor condition. He had countless injuries on him. He

15 had been placed in a large truck tyre which was then set on fire, so his

16 body was charred, and you could clearly see burns on his face and his

17 arms.

18 Q. How did you learn that he had been placed in this large truck

19 tyre?

20 A. That is what he told us. And the women who were in the restaurant

21 could also see this.

22 Q. Did he tell you when it was that he had been put in this large

23 truck tyre?

24 A. It happened some time in the afternoon. He was going for lunch,

25 he was among the last ones in the group, and he was recognised by one of

1 the guards, and the guard took him out and did it.

2 Q. When you would see Drago Prcac in Omarska camp, what would he be

3 wearing?

4 A. Most often he would be wearing a blue police uniform.

5 Q. Did you know a man named Nenad Lakic?

6 A. Yes, I did.

7 Q. And how did you know him?

8 A. He used to work with us at the security service in Prijedor.

9 Q. And what was his relationship, if any, to Slavica Lakic?

10 A. He was related to her. Slavica's husband, Bosko, is Nenad Lakic's

11 brother.

12 Q. While you were held in Omarska, did you ever see Nenad Lakic in

13 Omarska?

14 A. Yes, I did, very often.

15 Q. And do you know what his duties were there?

16 A. He worked as an interrogator upstairs in the interrogation rooms.

17 Q. And did you ever see Slavica Lakic in Omarska?

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 Q. And if you know, what were her duties in the camp?

20 A. She was working in the administration of the camp. She's a typist

21 by occupation, so she was probably typing records of interrogations of

22 detainees.

23 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, do we know if the problem with the ELMO

24 has been corrected? Yes?

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, I think it has been

1 corrected. At least we can see the photograph on the ELMO.

2 MS. HOLLIS:

3 Q. Now, sir, earlier you talked about seeing Krkan in this window

4 area. Could you show the Judges what window area you're talking about?

5 A. It is this area here, A21, above A21.

6 Q. And that window area was what? Was that the stairwell up to the

7 first floor of the restaurant building?

8 A. Yes. These stairs led to the rooms where interrogations took

9 place, and the area here had very large glass panes on it.

10 Q. And you're pointing to that clear area above A21; is that

11 correct?

12 A. Yes. This is the area that I would see Krkan very often, but I

13 also saw him at these windows here, at the windows of the interrogation

14 rooms.

15 Q. And you're pointing to windows on the first floor of the

16 restaurant building on the side that the garage is on?

17 A. Yes. Yes, I am.

18 Q. Now, you also said that two of the guards that worked on Krkan's

19 shift would often be in front of the administration building. Can you

20 show us on this exhibit where those guards would be? You talked about

21 Paspalj and Savic.

22 A. They would usually be here near these pillars.

23 Q. And you're talking about the support pillars for the canopy over

24 the administration building?

25 A. Yes, that is correct.

1 Q. Now, if the witness could also be provided with Exhibit 104,

2 please.

3 Now, you also -- could you take a moment to look at that.

4 MS. HOLLIS: That could also be placed on the ELMO, please.

5 Q. Now, you also talked about two other guards, Pop and Sole, that

6 you said were located somewhere near the entrance to Mujo's rooms. Could

7 you show the Judges where their normal location was?

8 A. At this area here.

9 Q. And you're pointing to an area that is across from a door on the

10 model on the garage side of the restaurant building; is that right?

11 A. Yes. So that they could control both the garage and Mujo's room.

12 Q. Was there any sort of vehicle or structure that was normally there

13 in that area?

14 A. Yes, there was. A van would always be parked here in this area,

15 which had no doors on it. And there was an area covered with some

16 branches which was supposed to protect the guards from rain and sunshine.

17 Q. And when you would see these two guards near this kombi and this

18 covered area, what would they be doing there?

19 A. Well, most often they would provoke people, verbally abuse them.

20 They would cock their rifles. They would provoke us most while we were

21 lining up in this area here, as we were leaving Mujo's room while going

22 out for lunch.

23 Q. As you look at the photograph, that would be the area to the left

24 of the door in the middle of that side of the building?

25 A. Yes. This is where we would be lined up, in front of Mujo's room,

1 against this wall here. We would be lined up in groups of 30 to go to

2 have our meals.

3 Q. Now, you also talked about seeing Drago Prcac at the window of a

4 room that had an antenna sticking out of the room. Where was that room

5 located?

6 A. That room was located above the room where we were, that is, above

7 Mujo's room. Here in this area roughly.

8 Q. So those would be the windows above and to the left of the doorway

9 that you pointed to?

10 A. Yes, yes.

11 Q. Thank you. Sir, I'd like to --

12 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, I'm going to move to a series of

13 incidents that I will ask the witness about. Do you want to commence the

14 incidents now or do you want to commence them tomorrow morning?

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] How much time do you need

16 approximately, Ms. Hollis?

17 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, I think I have another half hour to 45

18 minutes with this witness.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] In that case, it is better that

20 we adjourn for the day and continue tomorrow morning, except that we have

21 to be here again at 4.00, but not the witness, of course.

22 Mr. Usher, could you please help the witness out of the

23 courtroom.

24 Witness, we will see you again here tomorrow at 9.30.

25 [The witness stands down]

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1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] 4.00 we will be here again. It

2 will be a public session, so we will be wearing robes.

3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.25 p.m., to

4 be followed by a Status Conference

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