Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4258

1 Tuesday, 29 August 2000

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 10.45 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated.

6 Good morning, ladies and gentlemen; good morning, sound engineers;

7 good morning, interpreters; good morning, representatives of the Registry,

8 members of the Prosecution team; good morning, members of the Defence

9 team. I believe everybody is here. Good morning, defendants.

10 We are about to resume our work with a certain delay. The reasons

11 for this delay will be discussed this afternoon at the Status Conference.

12 But for the public, it needs to be said that it costs a great deal of

13 money and it does affect seriously the organisation of the hearing. So we

14 shall have to discuss it this afternoon at the Status Conference.

15 Having said that, we shall begin. Mr. Keegan.

16 MR. KEEGAN: Thank you, Your Honour. The Prosecution would call

17 Witness AE.

18 [The witness entered court]

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness AE. Can

20 you hear me?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You will now take the solemn

23 declaration.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

25 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Page 4259

1 WITNESS: WITNESS AE

2 [Witness answered through interpreter]

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated. I believe

4 also that the usher has a piece of paper to show you with your name. So

5 the usher will now show you this piece of paper, and on it there should be

6 your name. You will tell us only with yes or no whether this is, indeed,

7 your name, or not.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is my name.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Will you show it to

10 the Defence, please.

11 All right. Witness AE, you will now answer questions which

12 Mr. Keegan, who is to your right, standing, will be asking of you.

13 Mr. Keegan, you have the floor.

14 MR. KEEGAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Examined by Mr. Keegan:

16 Q. Witness AE, could you please tell the Judges how old you are.

17 A. (redacted)

18 Q. Where were you born?

19 A. (redacted)

20 Q. What level of education did you obtain?

21 A. I have three trades, all at the secondary educational level.

22 Q. What trades is it that you were trained in?

23 A. (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 Q. Did you serve your compulsory military service in the former

Page 4260

1 Yugoslavia?

2 A. I did.

3 Q. What was your training in?

4 A. I served as an engineer with the engineers.

5 Q. In what year did you do your military service?

6 A. From 1967 to 1969.

7 Q. Prior to the conflict in 1992, where did you live?

8 A. I've always lived in Kozarusa.

9 Q. Did you work in the Prijedor area in the trades that you mentioned

10 earlier that you were trained in?

11 A. Yes. I worked in Prijedor. For some 23 to 24 years I spent

12 working in Prijedor, and I engaged in all the three trades that I know.

13 Q. When was your last day of work in 1992?

14 A. It was about two days before the war began. I'm not quite sure

15 whether it was a Saturday or perhaps Friday.

16 Q. You referred to two days before the war began. When do you recall

17 the war beginning in your area?

18 A. I am positive that it was Sunday. It was May 1992. I think it

19 was the 22nd of May.

20 Q. But you're positive that it was on a Sunday?

21 A. Yes, I'm quite positive that it was Sunday afternoon.

22 Q. And how did the conflict begin in your area?

23 A. Sometime between half past two and half past three. Many people

24 were in their fields working. Some people were, of course, at home,

25 depends on what kind of chores they had. And then the fire began. There

Page 4261

1 were all sorts of weapons, tanks, and guns, heavy guns, all sorts of

2 artillery, heavy weapons.

3 Q. So the conflict began in your area, then, with the shelling of the

4 villages in your area?

5 A. Yes. At first they were only shelled. I couldn't see any

6 troops. They were shelling, and I could see a tank not far from my house.

7 Q. I want to just for a minute step back from that to the last day of

8 work. Why was it that you stopped working?

9 A. Well, I stopped working one morning because I set off to go to

10 work, and at Orlovci there was a checkpoint. There were soldiers at the

11 checkpoint, and they turned back all the Muslims and Croats who, who were

12 on their way to work, and so I had to go back home. They were letting

13 through only Serbs from Petrov Gaj, Omarska, and other places.

14 Q. You referred to a checkpoint at Orlovci. Was that on the main

15 Prijedor-Banja Luka road, the new road?

16 A. Yes, it was on the main road, Prijedor-Banja Luka.

17 Q. You mentioned that soldiers were manning that checkpoint. What

18 type of soldiers were they?

19 A. Those soldiers, some were in olive grey uniforms, others were in

20 camouflage uniforms, and there were, again, those others who were wearing

21 fur caps, had beards, and had cockades on those fur caps.

22 Q. The soldiers who were in the olive grey uniforms and in the

23 camouflage uniforms, how did they appear to you? Did they appear to be

24 regular soldiers in the army, regular forces, or something else?

25 A. Well, one couldn't really say they were regular because they all

Page 4262

1 looked older. A regular soldier, I served the army so I know, and those

2 were young men of 20, 22; and all of those were over 25 to 35, maybe.

3 Q. Regular soldiers to you means the persons who are serving their

4 compulsory military service, the young men?

5 A. Right, yes.

6 Q. Now, you mentioned some of the individuals at the checkpoint were

7 wearing the fur caps, cap with a cockade on it. What did that indicate to

8 you? What did that mean to you?

9 A. Well, it meant to me that they were Cetniks because there was a

10 lot of talk about them, and one knows them from history.

11 Q. And how did you -- or why was it that you correlated someone

12 wearing that type of cap with a cockade on it to identify them as a

13 Cetnik? Why was it that you would make that association?

14 A. That was a feeling I had. I simply knew that. Quite a number of

15 films had been made in Yugoslavia about this. And I also worked for a

16 film, "The Battle on the --"

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me for interrupting you,

18 but I'm afraid we have a problem with the transcript. Madam Registrar,

19 what has happened? Why do we have these technical difficulties with the

20 transcript?

21 THE REGISTRAR: I think it's working now.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Yes, I see it's all

23 right now. I'm sorry, Mr. Keegan, for having had to interrupt you. I

24 believe we can now move on. Thank you.

25 MR. KEEGAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 4263

1 Q. Witness AE, you referred to -- you were referring to the fact that

2 there had been movies made in the former Yugoslavia. The films that

3 you're referring to, did those films portray conflicts or wars that

4 involved groups who were identified as Cetniks in the films themselves?

5 A. There were many films, yes, portraying Cetniks. One knew that, I

6 mean, those films which were war films. And I also participated in one.

7 I spent six months participating in the shooting of a film called "The

8 Battle on the Neretva."

9 Q. And in those films, were the characters who were portrayed as

10 Cetniks dressed in a particular fashion, or was there a typical uniform

11 and appearance that people identified as Cetniks had?

12 A. Yes. They all, almost all wore those fur caps and cockades on

13 them with long hair and long beards; and the uniforms were, as a rule,

14 close to black, very dark, sort of blackish colour.

15 Q. Thank you. And on the day, the last day that you attempted to go

16 to work and were turned back, there were individuals who had that similar

17 appearance at the checkpoint in Orlovci?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And they were manning that checkpoint with soldiers who had

20 regular military uniforms?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now, you've already indicated when the conflict began in your

23 area. Can you please describe what the attack was like when it began?

24 A. When the attack began, there was only fire from different types of

25 heavy weapons. (redacted)

Page 4264

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted). But the gunfire came from all sides, from Kozara, from the

3 direction of Banja Luka -- what do I know? -- they're from south, from

4 where Grmici is, and all around.

5 Q. And during this -- when this shelling began, were you in an area

6 outside of your home?

7 A. I was at home on the balcony sitting there with my family. We

8 were having coffee.

9 Q. And could you see where the shells were landing, what they were

10 hitting?

11 A. (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted). At the same time they turned on Mustafa

14 Mujkanovic's house and cow shed, and they went on fire. And some ten

15 minutes later a shell hit my house and another one hit my cow shed. (redacted)

16 ten cows there, and there was some bulls and calves, and the cow shed was

17 set on fire. And then I went with (redacted) Dedic Mujkanovic and we

18 let the cows out, and after we had done that, practically at the same

19 time, the same time two were killed as we were coming out, and the others

20 ran out into the fields, and a few days later they were all dead except

21 for one small calf.

22 Q. Witness AE, you mentioned a couple of houses. Did you see other

23 houses and barns in the area being targeted?

24 A. Well, there -- in a matter of a few hours, not a single house was

25 left intact.

Page 4265

1 Q. Now, during this time, did you see any military forces, military

2 units or other armed groups moving through the area?

3 A. At that moment I did not see anyone.

4 Q. When these buildings were hit by the shells, did you notice any

5 armed people running from the buildings, or armed units?

6 A. No. When the gunfire started, there were three houses to which we

7 all fled, that is, to their basements. (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 Q. Now, in these areas, in these cellars, in the cellar you were in,

12 was there any individual who was wearing a uniform or who was carrying a

13 weapon?

14 A. Not a single individual, I'm sure of it. Nobody wore a uniform

15 and nobody had a weapon.

16 Q. How long did the shelling continue for?

17 A. Well, the shelling began in the -- on Sunday, in the afternoon,

18 and stopped between 10.00 and 11.00 on Tuesday.

19 Q. During the time that the shelling continued, did at any point you

20 notice any forces moving through the area, armed forces or armed groups?

21 A. No, I did not see anyone. Except one evening, that was the first

22 evening, a neighbour of mine came out in front of his house to see what

23 was going on because there was only shelling. There was a soldier

24 standing by the door and he told him to go back into the house, that it

25 was too dangerous to be out, and so he went back into the house.

Page 4266

1 Q. When the shelling ended, what happened? When the shelling ended,

2 what happened?

3 A. Then, that was between 10.00 and 11.00, (redacted)

4 (redacted), came and he told us that we should all get together, that there

5 was this order coming from the military that the cleansing would begin and

6 that we had to go to the premises of the neighbourhood community, because

7 that was the meeting point.

8 Q. How was your neighbour dressed when he came to the house and told

9 you that?

10 A. (redacted).

11 Q. Was that also known as the SMB uniform?

12 A. Yes, yes.

13 Q. Was he armed?

14 A. When he came, no. Nobody had any -- he wasn't carrying any arms.

15 Q. Did he indicate what might happen if you did not go down to the

16 local commune building?

17 A. He said that the commander had issued the order that we all had to

18 go to that meeting point because they were about to begin the cleansing,

19 and if they found anyone, they would kill him.

20 Q. Did the people from your area follow those instructions?

21 A. We all did except for four individuals: my father, my mother, and

22 Dedo Mujkanovic and his wife. They stayed behind.

23 Q. When the people from your area began to leave the village, were

24 you escorted by soldiers?

25 A. There were no soldiers. There was nobody. We started on our own

Page 4267

1 as we had been told.

2 Q. In this group that was leaving your village, did it include men,

3 women, and children?

4 A. (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 Q. On your way to the local commune building, at any point did you

7 see any forces, armed units?

8 A. When we reached the road, the old road which goes from a bridge

9 and then on to Kozarac, there were soldiers on that road with some

10 vehicles. Some in cars; some had military trucks.

11 Q. Now, these soldiers that you saw, did you know what ethnic group

12 they were?

13 A. Well, the soldiers were Serbs.

14 Q. And the ethnicity of the people from your village who were being

15 told to go to the local commune building?

16 A. They were all Muslims, down to the last one.

17 Q. Now, these Serb forces that you saw on the old road, what type of

18 positions were they in? What were they doing when you saw them?

19 A. Well, at that point in time they were standing. Some were walking

20 up and down. But there were no particular moments. As far as I know,

21 they stood or walked, stood in groups and talked, and each one of these

22 small groups had a bottle of some liquor with them. So they were just

23 drinking and talking there.

24 Q. When you passed these forces, did any of them escort your group to

25 the local commune or otherwise take control of your group?

Page 4268

1 A. Nobody did. We were simply told that we had to go down below the

2 neighbourhood community, the local commune, to the road, to the new road,

3 Prijedor-Banja Luka.

4 Q. Just for the record, when you refer to "the old road," is that

5 what was known as the old Prijedor-Banja Luka road?

6 A. Yes, the old road which once connected Prijedor to Banja Luka.

7 But then a new road was built a little bit further to the south.

8 Q. Now, you mentioned that your parents and another couple stayed in

9 your village. Do you know what happened to them?

10 A. My parents have disappeared; we don't know what happened to them.

11 This other neighbour, one hour or two hours later, came with his wife, and

12 he is still alive.

13 Q. Do you know what happened to your family house after that day?

14 A. Yes, I know. While I was still at home those two nights and two

15 days, the house was already hit by six or seven shells. The barn was set

16 on fire and it burned down.

17 Q. When you arrived at the junction of the new road, what happened?

18 A. Soldiers were waiting for us there. There were a lot of people

19 whom I already knew, and women and children were being separated from the

20 rest. Also the elderly people went with the women and the children. The

21 others went to the right-hand side. When I say, "to the left-hand side,"

22 I mean the area to the local commune building, that is, towards

23 Prijedor/Banja Luka. As far as the right side is concerned, mostly men

24 were gathered there between the ages of 14 or 15 up to 60, 65.

25 Q. What happened then with the men?

Page 4269

1 A. When they separated the men, they first put women and children

2 onto the buses. After they had left, the men were put on the buses as

3 well and taken to the Trnopolje camp.

4 Q. Now, within the group of men who were gathered there at the

5 intersection, and now I'm speaking of the Muslim men who were brought

6 there, did any of them have on uniforms or did any of them have weapons?

7 A. At that moment, as far as we are concerned, none of us had any

8 uniform or any piece of weapon.

9 Q. Now, were all the men in that group that you were in taken to the

10 Trnopolje camp?

11 A. Most of us were taken to Trnopolje; however, some of us were taken

12 to the Omarska camp.

13 Q. Where were you taken?

14 A. I was taken to Trnopolje.

15 Q. What happened when you arrived at the Trnopolje camp?

16 A. When we arrived in the camp, we were taken to the school building

17 located in Trnopolje. Actually, to the front part of the school, to the

18 yard, which consisted of some cultural centre building and shop.

19 Q. How long did you remain in the Trnopolje camp?

20 A. I remained in the Trnopolje camp for 12 days, until I was picked

21 up by the soldiers and taken elsewhere.

22 Q. During the time that you were in Trnopolje camp, did people

23 continue to arrive?

24 A. People continued to arrive on a daily basis.

25 Q. By the time that you left the Trnopolje camp, do you have any

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Page 4271

1 estimate as to how many people may have been there?

2 A. It is very difficult to be precise. The Serb soldiers themselves

3 said that there were between 6.000 and 7.000 of us, because the school

4 building was packed, the cultural centre as well, and the surrounding

5 yards were also crowded with people, women and children.

6 Q. Where did you spend your time sleeping when you were in the camp?

7 A. I slept outside all the time. I slept on the bare ground.

8 Q. Was your family at the Trnopolje camp, your wife and children?

9 A. My wife and my three children were also in the Trnopolje camp.

10 Q. Were you able to stay with them during the time you were in the

11 camp?

12 A. Well, I cannot say that I was able to stay with them or not. The

13 thing is we had been separated from the women and children. They were

14 supposed to go to the hall, sheltered from the rain. However, we, the

15 men, remained outside. There were a few vehicles there, a truck or a bus,

16 and we tried to shelter ourselves by sleeping underneath or in the cabs of

17 those vehicles.

18 Q. During the time that you were -- let me ask this: Were you able

19 to have contact with your family while you were there?

20 A. Well, I was able to have contact with them. We were there

21 together, we were fenced in, but we could go to the buildings such as the

22 school building.

23 Q. During the time that you were in the Trnopolje camp, were regular

24 meals provided for the people detained there?

25 A. We didn't get anything on a regular basis. Only the local

Page 4272

1 population, people who were still at their homes, would bring us some food

2 from time to time. After a few days, the Red Cross came and put up a

3 makeshift military kitchen there where some kind of broth was made with a

4 little meat. Sometimes it was a bit salty; sometimes not salty at all.

5 Q. Were you able to actually eat every day? Did you have something

6 to eat every day?

7 A. No, we didn't have much to eat. I didn't see a piece of bread for

8 exactly 12 days. Many people didn't have anything to eat.

9 Q. Was there sufficient water available in the camp for everyone?

10 A. There was no water because the water pipes had been cut off.

11 There were two wells across the road, and they would allow us from time to

12 time to go and fetch some water. But sometimes we were not allowed to do

13 that, we were not allowed to cross the road and go to the wells.

14 Q. Were there facilities for hygiene in the camp? Were you able to

15 bathe yourself, and were there toilets available?

16 A. No, there were no hygiene facilities at all in the camp. There

17 were a few toilets in the school building, on each floor, but they were

18 not functioning from the first day, and there were no outside toilets

19 either. So we had to use one and the same toilet which was located inside

20 the camp, further down, next to the fence. There was no water to bathe

21 ourselves in at all.

22 Q. During the 12 days that you were in Trnopolje, were prisoners

23 physically maltreated in the camp?

24 A. They were mistreated very often, individuals I mean. People would

25 be taken away to two or three different locations where they were beaten

Page 4273

1 up. One such location was behind the Red Cross building. They had a kind

2 of room there which was situated in the cultural centre. People who were

3 supposed to be liquidated, they were taken to the location near the

4 railway station in Trnopolje.

5 Q. Now, you mentioned a room in the cultural centre. Was that in a

6 particular area of the cultural centre?

7 A. Well, there was a very small room there, but I didn't have an

8 opportunity to go there. However, when people would come out of that

9 room, one could see what had happened to them while they were there. Some

10 could barely walk, but all of them would be covered in blood.

11 Q. The room that you're just referring to, what was it next to? What

12 else was inside that area of the cultural building?

13 A. I think that there was an infirmary there, but I cannot, cannot be

14 sure about that.

15 Q. During the time that you were Trnopolje camp, did you see any

16 women taken out of the camp?

17 A. It happened very often during the night. I cannot say that I

18 witnessed it; however, my wife told me that she had been there with our

19 children, and soldiers would come inside using torch lights, because there

20 were no lights otherwise at all, and they would single out a young woman

21 or two and then take her away. Sometimes the woman would be returned on

22 the same day or maybe later during the next day.

23 Q. Did you recognise any of the -- well, let me ask this: Were there

24 guards at the Trnopolje camp?

25 A. There were guards at the camp all the time.

Page 4274

1 Q. Did you recognise any of those guards?

2 A. I recognised several people. I knew most of them. Some of them

3 had worked with me in my company. We used to be colleagues for 22 or 23

4 years.

5 Q. How were these guards dressed?

6 A. The guards were mostly dressed in the SMB uniforms; however, some

7 of them were wearing camouflage uniforms as well.

8 Q. And what was their ethnic group?

9 A. All of them whom I knew personally, they were all Serbs.

10 Q. You said that you were in the camp for 12 days. What happened

11 after that?

12 A. After 12 days, in the afternoon or, rather, towards the evening

13 soldiers arrived, and they had a list of people. They were looking for 23

14 individuals, but at that moment they found only myself, Redo Grabic, and

15 Labud Mujkanovic, and they took us to the Prijedor barracks.

16 Q. And these soldiers, how were they dressed?

17 A. Those who came to get us were wearing camouflage uniforms, and

18 they were armed.

19 Q. Where was the army barracks located?

20 A. The barracks was located in Prijedor in the area of Puharska, on

21 the left-hand side going towards Bosanska Dubica from Prijedor.

22 Q. What happened when you arrived at the barracks?

23 A. When we arrived at the barracks, the three soldiers handed us over

24 to a military policeman called Tyson -- rather, nicknamed Tyson. I don't

25 know what his real name was.

Page 4275

1 Q. Once you were turned over to Tyson, did he ask you any questions,

2 interrogate you?

3 A. He brought us immediately to a toilet which was very small, maybe

4 one square metre large, and he immediately started asking us about weapons

5 and the whereabouts of the Green Berets.

6 Q. How was this soldier Tyson dressed?

7 A. He was dressed in a camouflage uniform and was wearing a white

8 belt.

9 Q. What did the white belt on the camouflage uniform signify to you?

10 A. Well, it meant that he was a soldier, the fact that he was wearing

11 a camouflage uniform. As for the white belt, this meant that he was a

12 military policeman because they all wore a white belt, and I knew that

13 because I had done my military service.

14 Q. When he asked you for weapons, what did you say?

15 A. First of all he cursed our balija mothers, and then he started

16 asking us about machine guns, and he wanted to know where the Green Berets

17 were, things like that. But we were unable to provide him with any answer

18 whatsoever, and we didn't have any weapons, neither had we seen any Green

19 Berets.

20 And then he started beating us. He beat us for a while with a

21 police truncheon, the three of us, myself, Redo Grabic, and Labud

22 Mujkanovic. While he was -- he started hitting us on our heads, and we

23 all fainted, and we were lying down next to the toilet bowl. After a

24 while, he took a kind of water hose from the toilet, and he started

25 spraying us with that water hose so that we would come to; and then after

Page 4276

1 we regained consciousness, he continued with the same questions. When we

2 didn't give him any answer, he started beating us again. Then we fainted

3 again. Then he hosed us down with water again. And then he said that he

4 would go out for a minute or two, and that he would come back, and if we

5 still don't tell him about the weapons and the whereabouts of the Green

6 Berets, that he would slit our throats.

7 So after a minute or two, he indeed came back, and he was carrying

8 a large knife in his hand, and he started cursing us again, cursing our

9 balijas mother, and he said, "Now you will have to tell me where the

10 weapons are and where the Green Berets are." But at that moment another

11 policeman came by, and he told Tyson to back off. He locked us up in the

12 cell which was across the toilet. There were iron bars on the doors of

13 that cell. So this is where we were put up, together with another five or

14 six individuals.

15 Q. Now, this second individual, how do you know he was a policeman as

16 well?

17 A. He, too, was wearing a white belt, and he ordered this Tyson, and

18 Tyson immediately stopped.

19 Q. When they put you in this cell across the hall, did this second

20 policeman lock the cell door?

21 A. The policeman, yes, he locked the doors to the cell.

22 Q. What happened after you were put in that room during the remainder

23 of that day? Did other individuals or groups come to the cell?

24 A. There were other people with me, and the two individuals who had

25 been with me were also put up there, I mean Grabic and Mujkanovic, but we

Page 4277

1 found four or five individuals there when we got there, people who had

2 been there before.

3 Q. Did you know any of those individuals?

4 A. I knew some of them personally, but I didn't know all of them.

5 Mirsad Lovic was there. He was from Kozarac, and he was with his son

6 there. He was there with the two Jakupovic brothers. I knew one of them

7 because he was a mason; I didn't know the other one. There was an

8 individual by the name of Sengin, but I didn't know his real name. There

9 was a young man whom they referred to as machine gunner whom I didn't

10 know, but I think he was from Hambarine. At least, that's what I was

11 told.

12 Q. During the day did other soldiers, other groups of soldiers come

13 to the cell?

14 A. Other groups of soldiers would come from time to time, but they

15 couldn't get in because of the iron bars, but they could see us, though

16 they couldn't get in.

17 Q. Did they try to get in to the cell?

18 A. Yes, they did. There was a young man with a very long knife who

19 was particularly eager to get in. He wanted to stab someone with his

20 knife, but we all moved backwards towards the corner of the cell, and this

21 is where we remained.

22 Q. And how were these soldiers, these groups of soldiers, dressed?

23 A. Some of them were wearing SMB uniforms, some camouflage uniforms,

24 and this young man I just mentioned who had a very long knife wore a kind

25 of red uniform and a hat on his head, and he had a very long beard and

Page 4278

1 long hair, and he was rather short.

2 Q. Did the soldiers who came to the cell threaten you in any way?

3 A. Well, they kept threatening us all the time. We were detainees.

4 They were verbally abusing us all the time. They cursed our balija or our

5 Turkish mothers, they threatened that they would kill us all, things like

6 that.

7 Q. Were you interrogated again while you were at the barracks?

8 A. While I was at the barracks, interrogations were carried out on a

9 daily basis. I was taken for interrogation one occasion, and I was taken

10 to a building which was right across the shack where we were being held

11 in.

12 Q. And at that interrogation, what type of questions did they ask

13 you?

14 A. Well, the questions they asked were rather ordinary. They wanted

15 to know our dates and places of birth, what we did, what kind of jobs we'd

16 had. They wanted to know about the whereabouts of our families, what they

17 were doing. If we had anyone working abroad, they would ask about those

18 members of our families. And then in the end they would ask us about the

19 weapons, the Green Berets, the lists of such people. They wanted us to

20 give them such lists and things like that. But since we were unable to

21 help them in any such way, we would usually be beaten up after that.

22 Q. And were you beaten during the interrogations?

23 A. I was kicked by a soldier who came to our room on two or three --

24 who came to the room on two or three occasions, and he kicked me in my

25 back.

Page 4279

1 Q. Now, where were you taken from the military barracks?

2 A. Eight days later we were all taken from the barracks to the

3 Keraterm camp.

4 Q. Now, when you say, "We were all taken," do you mean all of the

5 people who were in that cell with you at the barracks?

6 A. Yes. The people who were with me in the cell in the barracks,

7 seven or eight of us.

8 Q. And who took you to Keraterm?

9 A. Tyson put us on -- in a van which was supposed to take us to

10 Keraterm. Tyson had a very big, black dog with him at this moment, and he

11 had some kind of TV sets in that van. We were all crowded there, and we

12 were taken to Keraterm in that van, and Tyson was the driver.

13 Q. What happened when you arrived at Keraterm?

14 A. When we arrived at Keraterm, we saw a small house there and

15 scales, and this is where we were listed by some soldiers who happened to

16 be on that spot. Later on, we got off the van and were told to line up

17 against the wall, all eight of us.

18 Q. What happened when you were lined up against the wall?

19 A. When we got there, Tyson said, "Zigic, you have four men for

20 special treatment," and he put them aside; and the four of us were taken a

21 bit further away, perhaps one metre away from that spot, and we were told

22 to put our hands on another wall which was made of tin.

23 Q. Do you know what Tyson meant when he said four of the men were for

24 special treatment?

25 A. Yes, I know, because the same thing happened during the eight days

Page 4280

1 that we spent in the barracks in Prijedor. The "special treatment"

2 implied beatings every several hours.

3 Q. Now, when you were moved away, the group you were in, the four of

4 you, were you beaten once you were put against that other wall?

5 A. Those four who had been singled out for special treatment were all

6 covered in blood. They had been badly beaten up. As for the four of us,

7 we were hit or kicked two or three times, mostly with rifle butts. And

8 after that, we were sent to a room.

9 Q. Now, did you know or recognise any of the people who were beating

10 you and the others who were in your group of four?

11 A. In that group I know Zigic in particular, but there were three or

12 four soldiers more.

13 Q. And this Zigic that you mentioned, how did you know him?

14 A. I knew him because he used to be -- he used to drive a taxi in

15 Prijedor. And I lived six kilometres away from Prijedor, so that I would

16 come to the bus terminal, and the bus terminal and the railway station and

17 the taxi station were all one place, very close to, very close to one

18 another. And that's how I knew him, simply by coming to the railway

19 station.

20 Q. And approximately how long do you think you had known of this

21 individual named Zigic, how many years?

22 A. Well, for several years because I used to see him there at the

23 station. There was also a kind of a restaurant there, and I would also

24 drop by there coming back from work because I would have to wait for the

25 bus, and if I had a long wait, then I would drop by to have a drink,

Page 4281

1 perhaps, or have a bite, and that is where we met often, or by his car on

2 the road where he would stand by his taxi.

3 Q. And did you know his full name or a nickname, if any?

4 A. At that time, people called him Ziga. There were very few of them

5 who addressed him as Zigic or Zoran; Zole, some. But most people called

6 him Ziga.

7 Q. Do you recall whether Zigic actually also beat you in addition to

8 the other members of your group?

9 A. At that time, I do not know who it was that hit me because we were

10 facing the wall and they were behind us, when I was beaten. Those other

11 two assigned for special treatment, I did see Zigic hit them because they

12 were a short distance away from us.

13 Q. What did you see Zigic doing when he was beating them? How was he

14 beating them?

15 A. He was beating them with a pistol, because he had a pistol and

16 they called it a Scorpion. I just don't know because I'm not really

17 familiar with all those weapons, but they said that he carried a

18 Scorpion. I could see it was a different pistol from a number of others

19 that I had the occasion to see.

20 Q. When you say "different," how do you mean? Was it bigger,

21 smaller? In what way do you mean "different"?

22 A. Well, it was slightly longer. It had a somewhat thicker frame,

23 and the ammunition frame was also -- the ammunition clip was somewhat

24 longer than in common pistols.

25 Q. In addition to Zigic, were there other guards or soldiers beating

Page 4282

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Page 4283

1 those four who were singled out for special treatment?

2 A. Why, yes, quite a number of them. But Zigic stood out, Knezevic,

3 Dusan Duca. There were also two brothers, Bilanovic [as interpreted],

4 policemen. There were others but I cannot give you their names because I

5 didn't know them all.

6 Q. First, in the English transcript, the name of the two brothers is

7 translated as Bilanovic. Is that correct?

8 A. No. Banovic. I'm quite sure it is possible -- I'm sure that it

9 was an interpreter's mistake, those who interpreted. They were Banovic.

10 Q. Now, these other soldiers who were beating the group singled out

11 for special treatment, what were they beating those prisoners with?

12 A. Well, as a rule, they used rifle butts or kicked people with their

13 boots or would use metal rods or some wooden object, a wooden bat of a

14 metre or so, I think. And the Banovics, they used baseball bats to beat

15 people.

16 Q. After this beating when you first arrived in the camp, where were

17 you put in the camp? Where were you taken?

18 A. We were taken to Room 2. Those four men were put right next to

19 the door for special treatment, and the four of us could choose whether we

20 would be in the middle of the room or in some corner, wherever we could

21 find some room for us.

22 Q. Now, the men who were singled out for special treatment that

23 night, were they able to go to the room or into the room under their own

24 power or did they have to be helped?

25 A. More often than not somebody had to drag them or pull them because

Page 4284

1 they were really badly beaten. Sometimes they would manage to crawl on

2 their fours, because they were put, as I said, right next to the door.

3 Q. In your answer you indicated more often than not. I'm now

4 referring only to that first night.

5 A. Yes. Well, some could not enter under their own power, and others

6 managed to go down on their fours and that is how they entered the room.

7 Q. Could you see blood on these prisoners after these beatings?

8 A. They were all covered in blood, all of those who had been beaten,

9 because they all had fallen down after beatings and they continued to

10 trample on them and beat them and kick them on their faces or wherever.

11 It was a very bloody, special treatment for all of them.

12 Q. In Room 2, in addition to these four who you said were identified

13 for special treatment, were there also other prisoners in that room that

14 fell into this group for special treatment?

15 A. At that time there was one man, Bahonjic, a policeman. He was

16 also for special treatment.

17 Q. Where was he in the room?

18 A. He was right next to the door, and he was sitting down at the

19 entrance, next to the door into the room.

20 Q. The members of this group who were singled out for special

21 treatment, how often were they beaten?

22 A. They were beaten very frequently, sometimes two or three times a

23 day. When they would really collapse, when they would be only lying and

24 moaning because they wouldn't be able to stand up, they would be left

25 alone for a day or two. And then when they slightly recovered and managed

Page 4285

1 to stand up, then the special treatment would recommence. That is how it

2 went on day in, day out, until a person died, notably Bahonjic.

3 Q. Did you see who beat this prisoner Bahonjic?

4 A. Many people came to beat, but Knezevic and Zigic stood out because

5 they beat people almost every day.

6 Q. How long were you in the Keraterm camp?

7 A. Well, I was in Keraterm, after I arrived from the barracks, until

8 the camp was disbanded, when the International Red Cross arrived. I

9 believe it was early July when we were taken to Trnopolje.

10 Q. The translation says you believe it was early July when you were

11 taken to Trnopolje, when they closed the camp.

12 A. No. To Trnopolje, I know that we went from Keraterm to Trnopolje

13 again, and that was early August or perhaps end of July, and that was the

14 second time. But the first time we arrived in Keraterm, I'm not quite

15 sure, but it could have been sometime in June, the former half of June.

16 Q. Now, I want to return to this prisoner Bahonjic. Did you know or

17 did you learn what profession he had before the conflict?

18 A. Before the conflict, he was a policeman, a regular one.

19 Q. How often was he beaten in the Keraterm camp after you arrived?

20 A. After I arrived, he was beaten every day. Sometimes once;

21 sometimes twice a day. After that, when he began to fall into a coma,

22 when he simply couldn't move, when he was just lying down and moaning and

23 we didn't know whether he was dead or alive, then they would let him be

24 for a day or two. In that camp he also had two uncles of his who would

25 help him a little; if they could find some water somewhere or some food,

Page 4286

1 to give it to him to help him recover. But when he would recover

2 slightly, they would start beating him all over again. It went on day

3 after day after day for about seven days.

4 In the end, one could simply see that he wouldn't really live much

5 longer, that he was already half dead. His two uncles asked the guards to

6 give him some water and wash him because he was stinking, there was a

7 terrible odour coming from him. After he was washed, only a few hours

8 later he died.

9 Q. After he died, do you know where his body was taken?

10 A. After he died, in the morning they said that his body should be

11 thrown out near Keraterm where they had a dumping yard of the broken tiles

12 and all sorts of other garbage, and he was thrown out, dumped, into that

13 dumping yard.

14 Q. Where in the camp was this dumping yard located?

15 A. Well, that dumping yard was, when you look from the road in the

16 direction of the Kozara Mountain, that is, after the fourth room, Room 4,

17 and then some 20, 30 metres away perhaps, in the direction of the Ciglane

18 factory, of the brickyard.

19 Q. Did you ever see -- was Bahonjic ever beaten inside the room or in

20 the doorway of the room?

21 A. Well, he was usually beaten inside, in the room, because he was

22 simply unable to move. He could not walk any longer.

23 Q. Who did you see beat him inside the room?

24 A. In the room he was beaten by Zigic, he was beaten by Knezevic, and

25 other soldiers came too and beat him. I cannot list them all because

Page 4287

1 there was a very large number of soldiers who took turns.

2 Q. In addition to this group who were singled out for special

3 treatment, how often were other prisoners beaten in the Keraterm camp?

4 A. Why, every night they would call out names and take out at times,

5 a few individuals; at times, dozens of individuals. Those who were lucky

6 enough to survive would come back to the room and then we would sprinkle

7 them with some water or try to bandage them, put cold compresses to them

8 to help them regain consciousness. But be that as it may, people were

9 taken out every night.

10 Q. After the first night that you've already talked about, on any

11 other occasion were you ever beaten by Zigic?

12 A. Yes. After 10 or perhaps 15 days, Zigic and Knezevic came to the

13 camp, and they said, "All the people from Kozarac should come out." And

14 if anyone did not come out and he found him there, he would kill him with

15 his own hands. So we came out, and we were about 22, I believe, and he

16 told us to line up.

17 Q. When you say he told you to line up, who was it who told you to

18 line up?

19 A. Zigic. Zigic said that we were to line up.

20 Q. How were you to line up?

21 A. We were to line up first in a column of one after one, in the

22 Indian file. After that, he told us to kneel down, to go down on our

23 knees and put our hands on the asphalt. When we went down, with our knees

24 and our hands on the asphalt, then he told us to move to that small

25 structure where the scales were, and that is how we had to move to that

Page 4288

1 small structure and back several times. There were very many pebbles or

2 gravel on that asphalt, on that road, so that our knees and the palms of

3 our hands were bleeding.

4 After several times of going there and coming back, he told us to

5 stand up and we did, and then he told us that we should now line up in

6 columns two by two. When we did that, he told us to turn and face each

7 other, and then we turned and began to face each other. He then ordered

8 us again to go down on our knees and hands, and we again knelt down and

9 put the palms of our hands on the asphalt. He then asked a soldier to

10 pass him a metal rod and this soldier brought that metal rod. It was

11 about a metre long and about a centimetre and a half, two centimetres,

12 perhaps, thick. He hit two or three men with it, and the rod, the metal

13 rod, coiled or bent. He threw it away, discarded it, and asked the

14 soldier to bring him something thicker. When this soldier brought a

15 thicker rod, then he started, from one man to the other, hitting each one

16 on the back and the neck. As he hit the man on the back or neck, those

17 men would fall down, head forward, on the asphalt.

18 Another soldier was moving between the column and would receive in

19 his hands those individuals that Zigic would hit, and then he would then

20 hit him with his soldier's boot under the chin or on the face, wherever,

21 so that that individual would again be returned upward, in the upright

22 position. It went on until all of us had passed through it.

23 Q. Witness AE, were you beaten by Zigic with this metal rod on your

24 back and on your head?

25 A. Yes. Down to the last one, each and every one of the 22 of us, he

Page 4289

1 would hit on the head or the neck or the back, depends on where the rod

2 landed. But he aimed in particular at the neck and the back.

3 Q. Were you also kicked in the head or in the face area by this other

4 soldier after you went down onto the ground from being hit with the metal

5 rod?

6 A. When I fell down with my head towards the ground, this soldier

7 kicked me with his boot. There is this metal part on the boot, and I

8 still have a scar on my chin.

9 Q. What was the condition of this group of prisoners that you were

10 after this beating by Zigic and this other soldier?

11 A. Everybody was covered in blood. There was blood on everybody. I

12 mean, some were in a better -- some were a bit worse off, but everybody

13 was covered in blood.

14 Q. What happened after Zigic finished going down the column beating

15 people with this metal rod?

16 A. When he ended this procedure of his, he told us to stand up, to

17 line up, to make two, and to face each other. And at that time he then

18 said, "Now, balija, you are to fight between yourselves." And those who

19 refused to fight enough, as I understand the word enough, "I'll beat him."

20 And we had to begin to fight group by group, that is, each one of us

21 fighting his partner.

22 Q. And who were you across from?

23 A. I was across Redo Grabic.

24 Q. And did you and Redo have to start fighting?

25 A. Everybody -- we were in the last group, so we were the last ones

Page 4290

1 to begin to fight. Just as we had started it, I felt ill, and at that

2 moment Kajin came to the gate where the scales are, and he told Zigic to

3 stop it.

4 And then Kajin said that we should all go back to the rooms, and I

5 just -- so black. I nevertheless managed to somehow grab at Redo's coat.

6 And after a while when I came back to, I was back in the room, and there I

7 was given some fruit juice to recover.

8 Q. You mentioned a man named Kajin. Do you know what his position

9 was in the camp, who he was?

10 A. I think he was the shift commander of the guards.

11 Q. And when he ordered Zigic to stop this beating with the prisoners,

12 Zigic obeyed him?

13 A. Yes, Zigic stopped. Yes, he did obey.

14 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, I know we started at an odd time so I've

15 been trying to keep track of what would be the normal break time. Is this

16 a convenient time, or would you like me to proceed? I'm not sure how you

17 want to -- what schedule you want to follow today.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I believe this could be a

19 convenient time. Let me think. Yes, we will think about quarter past

20 noon, but perhaps we shall have just one break. At any rate, I do believe

21 that this is a convenient time. We shall break now and shall be resuming

22 at quarter to one.

23 Witness, please do not move. I think that the Witness should be

24 taken out of the courtroom before we go. Will you please bring down the

25 shutters and help the witness out, and then we shall adjourn.

Page 4291

1 Very well, we should now adjourn and resume at quarter to one.

2 --- Recess taken at 12:13 p.m.

3 --- On resuming at 12.50 p.m.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated.

5 Mr. Keegan -- we have to wait for the witness.

6 I think we're now ready to proceed. Mr. Keegan, please continue

7 with the witness.

8 MR. KEEGAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. Witness AE, before the break you had been speaking of the occasion

10 when you were beaten by Zigic. Early in your testimony you mentioned the

11 group who had come with you. The four of them had been singled out for

12 special treatment. You also indicated that on that first night, you saw

13 Zigic, the man you know as Zigic, beat that group of four, which included

14 the man you identified as Sengin and the two Jakupovic brothers. Did you

15 see those people beaten on subsequent occasions after that first night?

16 A. Yes. I saw they were beaten on several occasions after that,

17 especially the Jakupovic brothers. They accused them for having raped a

18 girl, and for -- as far as the man by the name of Sengin is concerned, he

19 was accused of being a Green Beret. The other man called machine

20 gunner --

21 Q. Just a moment, please. I'm sorry to interrupt. We were just

22 experiencing a technical problem. I want to ask about the Jakupovic

23 brothers first.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Were they accused of anything by the people who would beat them?

Page 4292

1 A. They accused the Jakupovic brothers for a rape of a Serbian girl.

2 Q. Did at any time policemen come to investigate about this crime, to

3 interview the Jakupovic brothers or to otherwise conduct a normal criminal

4 investigation?

5 A. No. In any of the cases, no one ever interrogated them about that

6 in Keraterm.

7 Q. What would happen when they would be called out from the room?

8 A. When they would be called out from the room, they would usually be

9 beaten up. They would be beaten black and blue to such an extent that

10 they couldn't come back on their own. They had to be carried back into

11 the room.

12 Q. And who did you see beat these two brothers on those occasions?

13 A. Very often I saw Zigic and Knezevic, but there were other young

14 men as well who would come from time to time, including the Banovic

15 brothers.

16 Q. Were there any other prisoners in the Keraterm camp who you saw

17 Zigic beat or otherwise physically mistreat while you were in the camp?

18 A. On that day when all of us were standing in a column, I could give

19 you the names. There were 22 of us, and I remember quite a few names of

20 the people who happened to be there on that occasion.

21 Q. Please.

22 A. I was there myself, Redo Grabic, Labud Mujkanovic, Ferik

23 Kapetanovic, Hilmija Avdagic. Then there was also the tinsmith who was --

24 who had been with me with his young son, Lovic. Then Serif Causevic who

25 was also there with his underaged son, and a few others whose names I

Page 4293

1 cannot recall at the moment.

2 Q. While you were in Keraterm camp, did you see a prisoner there who

3 you knew by the nickname of Spija?

4 A. I did see Spija. He was in my room, in Room 4. (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 Q. What happened to Spija?

8 A. Spija was killed in the Keraterm camp. One day he was called out

9 after lunch, it was in the evening, when he was taken to the garage

10 located above Room 4. Four minutes later on, he was called by some

11 soldiers. He was supposed to be taken back. When they brought Spija back

12 he was already dead, but not all of us knew about that. There was a young

13 man with us who was a medical student, an undergraduate medical student,

14 by the name of Zulic. So he checked his pulse, and he told us he was

15 dead. After a while, very soon after that, one of the soldiers called us

16 out, and he told us to take off Spija's leather jacket and his sneakers

17 and told us to take it out.

18 Q. And do you know what happened to Spija's body?

19 A. Spija's body was thrown out to the dumping area where most bodies

20 would be thrown out, and they would stay there for one night or two.

21 There would be sometimes four or five or maybe even more bodies on the

22 dumping ground. A small truck would come there from time to time. It was

23 a yellow truck, and the bodies would be loaded onto that truck and taken

24 away somewhere.

25 Q. Now, I just want to clarify something that was in the transcript.

Page 4294

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Page 4295

1 The English transcript said that Spija was taken to a garage which was

2 above Room 4. Is that garage above Room 4?

3 A. No. Maybe it's the interpreter's mistake. The garage was, of

4 course, on the ground floor, but it was up above Room 4 going to the

5 ceramic factory. I mean, it was not upstairs, it was on the ground floor

6 but further up the road.

7 Q. If you were looking at Room 4, into Room 4, would that garage have

8 been to the left or to the right?

9 A. Looking from the outside, looking towards Room 4, the garage was

10 on the right-hand side.

11 Q. During the time you were in Room 4, were other prisoners taken out

12 and beaten and killed?

13 A. It happened almost every night, but people were not murdered every

14 night. They would be beaten up every night. Sometimes they would be

15 killed, sometimes only beaten up. It all depended on the kind of

16 treatment they received.

17 Q. Was there anyone in that room who was Bosnian Croat who was beaten

18 and killed during the time you were in Room 4?

19 A. Drago was amongst them. He used to be a policeman in the Ljubija

20 mine. (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted). He was taken out one night, sometime

23 before midnight, and he was beaten up outside the door. He cried, he

24 moaned, and at about 1.00 -- after 1.00 we could no longer hear any

25 voices. Later on soldiers called us out to take Drago back into the

Page 4296

1 room.

2 Q. Do you recall Drago's last name?

3 A. I think it's Tokmadzic.

4 Q. When Drago Tokmadzic was brought back into the room, was he alive?

5 A. Drago was no longer alive. When it dawned, his body was thrown

6 out on the same dumping area where other bodies had been thrown out.

7 Q. Do you know who participated in the beating of Drago Tokmadzic the

8 night he was killed?

9 A. I couldn't tell you that because I was inside the room. It was

10 night, and I don't know exactly who killed him.

11 Q. What about when Spija was killed?

12 A. When Spija was killed, I know that at that moment, just before he

13 was called out, Dusan Tadic entered the camp, and Spija was the first one

14 to be taken out and killed. There were four or five other individuals

15 that were killed after Spija within the period of maybe half an hour.

16 Q. But you yourself didn't actually see the beatings.

17 A. No, I couldn't see anything because we were all locked up. It was

18 after lunch. They locked us up in the room. The incident took place in

19 the garage and I couldn't see them.

20 Q. During the time that you were in Keraterm, were you called out and

21 beaten by an individual who wanted to obtain whatever valuables you had at

22 your house?

23 A. It was Goran Grahovac, also known as Goca. He took me out two

24 days before the closing down of the Keraterm camp. It was sometime

25 between 11.00 and 12.00 p.m. He was standing in front of the garage and

Page 4297

1 there was a truck standing there. He was sitting on one of the beer

2 crates next to the rear wheel of the truck. There were five or six other

3 policemen wearing blue suits with him and they were standing in a circle.

4 I came to them and I was facing Goran. They immediately started

5 hitting me a little bit, each one of them, and at that moment Goran told

6 them to wait a little. Then he asked me whether I knew who he was,

7 whether I knew his name, where he was from, where he used to live and

8 things like that. But it was dark, it was night-time, and I told him I

9 didn't know. Then he called me a balija motherfucker and he said, "How

10 come you don't know? You used to come to see my aunt, Grozda Vlacina."

11 Grozda Vlacina used to be my neighbour; she used to live some 200 metres

12 away from my house.

13 Then he asked me some totally unimportant, irrelevant questions,

14 and in the end he told the guards to take me back to the room. He went on

15 cursing me and he said that I wouldn't confess to anything. But he didn't

16 have any such questions. There was nothing for me to confess. So they

17 took me to the garage door, and as I was standing near the door, I was hit

18 with an object, a blunt object, on my head. I fell down and I lost

19 consciousness.

20 After a while, they pulled me up but I couldn't see anything.

21 Everything was dark in front of me. Then Goran said that I should be

22 taken back, so they took me back. By that time, I was all covered in

23 blood, and at that point he asked me, "Where are your 50.000 German marks

24 and one kilo of gold? You have to tell me that if you want to stay

25 alive." I told him I didn't have any money because that same year,

Page 4298

1 earlier on in January, I had bought a new car and I told him that I had

2 spent the money. I also said that I did have some gold which belonged to

3 my mother, my wife, and my daughter. Then he asked me where I had left

4 it, so I explained to him where I had buried the gold.

5 Then he brought me back to the room, he was still with his

6 escorts, and as I entered the room, the people who were there in the camp,

7 some of them had some water and they had some towels with them, so they

8 helped me. They put those towels on my back which was black and blue.

9 But 15 or 20 minutes later, my name was called out again so I had to go

10 back to the door though I could hardly walk.

11 So when I came to the door, the policeman who was standing there

12 told me, "Don't be afraid. You will not be harmed. But you have to

13 explain to me exactly where the location is because we do not have much

14 time to search for it." So I described to him exactly where the location

15 was, where the gold was buried and how he can easily find it. After that,

16 I was returned to the room.

17 The next morning, around 10.00, Grahovac called me out again and

18 he told me to come to the guard post, actually to where the scales were.

19 He was sitting in the shade near the beer crates, and he told me to come

20 closer. When I approached him, he told me to sit down. So I sat down and

21 he gave me a cigarette. Then he told me, "You lied about it all. You

22 didn't tell the truth. There is no gold there." Then I told him that the

23 gold must be there or else somebody else had found it in the meantime by

24 accident, because I told him that nobody knew exactly where I had buried

25 the gold, not even my wife or my children. I didn't tell that to anyone.

Page 4299

1 So after a half hour of mistreatment, at one point he told me, "I

2 did find the gold, but you buried it somewhere else, not at the location

3 you indicated to us." I told him that nobody knew where the gold was

4 buried, that that was the only possible location of the burial.

5 At that moment the camp commander came by. It was an elderly man;

6 I don't know his name. Goran jumped aside and he told me to run back to

7 the room. He jumped over the fence which was behind that little guard

8 post and he just disappeared.

9 Q. That morning when Grahovac called you out, was there anybody else

10 with him?

11 A. The shift commander by the name of Fustar, also known as Postar,

12 the postman, was with him on that occasion.

13 Q. When you left Keraterm camp, where were you taken?

14 A. After I left the Keraterm camp, I was taken to the Trnopolje

15 camp.

16 Q. How long did you remain in Trnopolje?

17 A. Until the 21st of September. On that day, I was picked up. I was

18 taken for an exchange. And they took me to Donji Vakuf after that, where

19 I remained in a similar camp but somewhat smaller in size for a couple of

20 days waiting to be exchanged.

21 Q. That was in 1992?

22 A. Yes, it all happened in 1992.

23 MR. KEEGAN: No further questions, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

25 Mr. Keegan.

Page 4300

1 The Defence. Mr. Krstan Simic.

2 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness will be

3 cross-examined by the Defence counsel for Mr. Zigic only.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

5 Mr. Stojanovic, you have the floor now.

6 Witness AE, you will now be asked questions that will be put to

7 you by the counsel for Mr. Zigic.

8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

9 Cross-examined by Mr. Stojanovic:

10 Q. Witness AE, we have to address you in this manner and it is in

11 your interest. As we know, you have asked for protection and we shall go

12 by that. I am Mr. Zigic's Defence counsel and my name is Slobodan

13 Stojanovic from Belgrade, and my colleague, Simo Tosic, is a lawyer from

14 Banja Luka. We have a number of questions to ask you on the basis of your

15 evidence here.

16 Our questions will refer not only to the evidence that you gave

17 today but also to a statement in writing which you gave the Prosecution;

18 that is, it is true that sometime in late 1995 you gave a statement in

19 writing to the representatives of the Prosecutor's Office of the

20 Tribunal.

21 A. Yes, I did, but I do not know now which year it was. Was it

22 1995?

23 Q. No, it doesn't really matter. End of late 1995. It says here the

24 11th of November, 1995, but that's it. Did you sign this statement? Do

25 you perhaps recall some details about that?

Page 4301

1 A. Yes. Yes, it was a signed statement.

2 Q. Very well. Thank you. Did you serve a major part of your

3 military service in Trebinje?

4 A. Yes, I served the most part of it in Trebinje.

5 Q. Did you perhaps attend the school for reserve officers?

6 A. I attended a ten-day course.

7 Q. Here it is mentioned that about 15 days before the 22nd of May,

8 1992, at a place called Orlovci, sometime on the 22nd of May, you were

9 intercepted, you were stopped. You also told us who the men were who were

10 manning that checkpoint. Was there at that same time another checkpoint

11 which was a Muslim checkpoint exclusively at the entrance into Kozarac?

12 A. I did not go into Kozarac. I lived on the borderline where

13 Kozarusa begins and when Orlovci and Grmici are.

14 Q. How far is Kozarusa from Kozarac?

15 A. It is about four or five kilometres away.

16 Q. Did -- you say in your written statement that as you waited at the

17 Orlovci checkpoint, there some ten cars and two buses which had been

18 turned back, and that the vehicles carrying Serbs were being let through?

19 A. Yes, that is true.

20 Q. But why did you wait for those 12 vehicles, just watching them

21 being stopped?

22 A. No. I didn't wait for anyone. When I reached that checkpoint

23 where they were standing, they searched my car and said I couldn't go to

24 Prijedor, and they turned me back. And that was the peak hour, at the

25 time that people go to work.

Page 4302

1 Q. And during that time you counted the vehicles they stopped?

2 A. No, I didn't count them. I could see it very well as I was coming

3 from Orlovci to my house because it's about one kilometre, a kilometre and

4 a half. And during that time, within some ten minutes, there would be

5 usually three or four buses roughly at the same time because -- taking

6 people to work, and there were also private cars.

7 Q. And apart from those stopped buses, were they all with Muslims?

8 A. Yes. They were only coming -- bringing Muslims because the one

9 bus came from Becici and another one from Kozarac, and Kozarac was

10 populated by Muslims, over 95 per cent of it. And then a bus from

11 Lamovita arrived and from Omarska, and they were searched and then let

12 through to Prijedor.

13 Q. You say that all the vehicles carrying Serbs were being let

14 through. Did you know all those people who were in those vehicles?

15 A. I wasn't writing down anyone's names, sir.

16 Q. In your written statement of 1995, you say that sometime on the

17 24th of May, 1992, Radio Prijedor announced that around 1400, a military

18 column would go through Kozarac and that nobody was to interfere with

19 that. Do you remember that?

20 A. I remember the radio announcing it, but I do not know the date. I

21 don't know what the thing says here. I know that the radio announced that

22 nobody was to stop that column or interfere with it because the column

23 would go from Bihac to Banja Luka.

24 Q. And does that mean the main Banja Luka-Prijedor road?

25 A. Yes, they were to take that main road, Prijedor-Banja Luka.

Page 4303

1 Q. It means through Kozarac or by Kozarac?

2 A. Well, that means through Kozarac because Kozarac is -- I mean,

3 well, one cannot say it's only the centre of it and that the rest of it is

4 something else.

5 Q. And as that column was passing through, was it interfered with?

6 A. As far as I know, that column never turned up.

7 Q. And --

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Sorry, but please do not forget

9 that you are speaking the same language, and you really should make a

10 pause between question and answer.

11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you, I'm sorry.

12 Q. Are you aware of an attack on an army column at a place called --

13 at a place Jakupovici between Prijedor Banja Luka?

14 A. I wouldn't be aware of that because Jakupovici is some 10 or

15 perhaps 12 kilometres, perhaps even more, away from where I lived.

16 Q. And after that attack on Kozarac, you also mentioned that

17 (redacted) Ranko Vlacina, a Serb, wearing a uniform had come and said

18 whatever he said. (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 A. (redacted). There was more than 200 metres between

21 his house and mine. We were always together.

22 Q. No, but my question is, at that time, was he with you; that is,

23 was he at home?

24 A. He was at home. He was in his house.

25 Q. You mean during the attack?

Page 4304

1 A. Yes. During the attack, he wasn't with us.

2 Q. And if you don't mind, we should like to go through the chronology

3 of your misadventures that you described to us. If I am correct, you said

4 that you were taken to Trnopolje on a Tuesday, and that the attack on

5 Kozarac took place on Friday?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Yes, I'm sorry, that it took place sometime on Sunday in the

8 afternoon?

9 A. Yes, between half past two and half past three.

10 Q. So it was Sunday, so it could be the 24th of May. And I see that

11 you also said that on Friday, that is two days before that, you had

12 already been stopped?

13 A. I am positive that it was a Sunday. And as for the date, I'm not

14 sure even when I made that written statement, but I know it was Sunday, it

15 was May. It could have been the 22nd or perhaps the 24th of May, but I do

16 think it was the 22nd.

17 Q. I really do not want to confuse the witness, and I verified and I

18 do think it was the 24th. I really think we need to have a very clear

19 picture about the time spent in the camps.

20 So at any rate, you went to Trnopolje on Tuesday, and you stayed

21 there -- you were there for 12 days?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. So if on the 22nd -- you say the 22nd you were stopped at the

24 checkpoint, is it? Was it two days before the attack?

25 A. At the checkpoint, it was as I went to work, and that was a Friday

Page 4305

1 or perhaps Saturday. I can't give you the date.

2 Q. You stayed 12 days in Trnopolje?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. So it could have been between the 24th, 26th of May, until the 5th

5 or the 7th of June, thereabouts. And in Trnopolje, was there a wire fence

6 at the time?

7 A. There was a small wire fence like the farmers had around their

8 fields where they would grow maize or perhaps some vegetables, things like

9 that.

10 Q. And was there such a wire fence all those 12 days while you were

11 there?

12 A. The small wire fence was there for the first couple of days, and

13 then some people tore it up, and yet some of it survived even after I

14 left.

15 Q. Now a slight detour with regard to this chronology. After that,

16 you were taken to the barracks in Prijedor, if I'm correct, and you spent

17 there eight days?

18 A. Yes. I was there about eight days in the barracks in Prijedor.

19 Q. So the 5th or the 7th of June, 1992, until between 13th or the

20 15th of June, 1992, that is, the following eight days you spent there.

21 Very well, you told us you were there eight days.

22 And then you went to Keraterm?

23 A. After that I was taken to Keraterm.

24 Q. Now, according to this reckoning, it should be the 13th, 15th of

25 June, 1992?

Page 4306

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Page 4307

1 A. I would -- no, I wouldn't know that. It was eight days. Well, I

2 know roughly how things happened and how they followed one another,

3 because a prisoner has no time to count.

4 Q. Yes, yes, quite true. I'm merely trying to help and just to

5 clarify the whole picture.

6 So if I understood you well, you were taken to Room 2?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And you spent there about a month?

9 A. Yes, about a month or perhaps a little less, perhaps a little

10 more, until the interrogation.

11 Q. So if we take in account the previous date, it means that till

12 mid-July or something, you were in Room 2?

13 A. Yes, a little before that, a little after that, because I cannot

14 really give you the exact time. But when there was interrogation, for

15 interrogation, that is when they took me to Room 4.

16 Q. In your written statement it says that you spent about a month in

17 Room 4, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but I should guess --

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Stojanovic, you're now

19 beginning to argue with the witness. You're building up your argument

20 with the witness. Ask the question. It's always the same matter. I

21 do -- I'm really sorry I have to tell you that, but I think it is

22 information. Pose your question; do not argue with the witness.

23 You build your argument, and you put it to the witness, but that

24 is what you have to do. It is up to you to build up your argument. You

25 don't do it with the witness. You talk to the witness, and now your task

Page 4308

1 is to collect information from the witness, so please ask your questions.

2 If not, I'll have to interrupt you. I am sorry.

3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I, too, apologise,

4 Mr. President. I am not in total disagreement with the witness,

5 especially in this part, but, yes, of course, I accept your suggestion. I

6 was acting in good faith. I merely wanted to be very accurate. There is

7 nothing in this part that I disagree with the witness about.

8 Q. So, and you -- did you stay in Room 4 until the end of your stay

9 in Keraterm?

10 A. I was there until the end of my stay in Keraterm. I was in Room

11 4.

12 Q. You mentioned an incident with Zoran Zigic when he beat you with a

13 metal rod and beat you at the back of your head or your back?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Do you still bear any marks of that beating or have medical

16 documentation?

17 A. I have it on my face and under my chin. You can look at it.

18 Q. But you say it was from the boot of a soldier who met you on the

19 other side?

20 A. Yes. Zigic hit me on the leg and on the back with the metal rod

21 so I fell forward, and this other soldier was in front of me, kicked me

22 with his boot, and I have this.

23 Q. Yes, I understand it. I'm asking about marks on your back or on

24 your neck.

25 A. Well, for this you would have to look for some medical -- I can

Page 4309

1 get it for you from my doctors. I can get you all the medical findings,

2 my present state of health.

3 Q. Could you describe Mr. Zigic at that time? Or if the Court does

4 not object, then I will have some more specific questions. Did you know

5 him at that time?

6 A. He had black hair, he was thin, and he wore a red beret, a cap,

7 ada [phoen] cap invariably.

8 Q. When you say invariably, does it mean that his hair was always

9 black?

10 A. Well, at that time his hair was black. I mean, he might have

11 changed it since. I don't know that.

12 Q. But did you used to see him often wearing it?

13 A. I saw him practically every day in Keraterm.

14 Q. Did he perhaps wear some earrings?

15 A. Earrings? Sir, I had no time to look for earrings, I was trying

16 to save my head.

17 Q. Would you know approximately the uniform, what did his uniform

18 look like, what colour was it?

19 A. At times he had a multicoloured uniform and sometimes he wore a

20 uniform like policeman, something like dark blue.

21 Q. When you say multicoloured, what does it mean, camouflage uniform

22 or what? What colour? You will know that better than I do because you

23 were there.

24 A. A multicoloured uniform.

25 Q. I wasn't there.

Page 4310

1 A. Well, I wouldn't know. You shouldn't ask me that.

2 Q. Did he have any bandage anywhere?

3 A. Yes, for a while he had his arm bandaged, and it was -- at least,

4 that's what he said, that he was firing from Zolja at Kozarac, and that

5 was the scar.

6 Q. Did he have any scars on his body?

7 A. Well, I didn't take any photographs of him, nor did I look over

8 his body.

9 Q. Yes, excuse me, but you know the colour of his hair. Did you

10 notice any particular signs, any marks on his face?

11 A. No.

12 Q. You say that you used to see him at the railway station and the

13 bus terminal as a taxi driver. Did you ever use his services?

14 A. No, because I didn't need it. I had a car on my own. And when

15 there wasn't -- when I couldn't get the fuel at the time, then I would use

16 the bus.

17 Q. So you used to see his vehicle. Do you know what car was it? A

18 taxi, but --

19 A. No, I can't remember what car. I know it was a taxi, and that he

20 would be in that pub there which was called Trebevic or something.

21 Q. You can't really remember the colour of the vehicle?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Do you remember what time was it when he worked as a taxi driver?

24 I don't mean the time of the day, I just mean before the war? When was

25 that, during the war?

Page 4311

1 A. It was before the war.

2 Q. Could you be more specific?

3 A. Well, I could say that it was two or three years before the war.

4 That is when I used to see him.

5 Q. Right up to the war?

6 A. Well, that I can't tell you.

7 Q. I don't mean to a day.

8 A. I just mean the last two years before the war.

9 Q. You spent a long time in Keraterm. Would you know how long

10 Mr. Zigic spent in Keraterm? How long was he present there?

11 A. Well, I'm telling you that it was a very rare occasion that Zigic

12 wouldn't come with Knezevic to Keraterm, but largely he came every day.

13 He was there very often.

14 Q. Does it cover the whole period of your stay in Keraterm?

15 A. From the beginning to the end of my stay there. And he even

16 escorted by the buses to Trnopolje when we were leaving, when we left

17 Keraterm.

18 Q. In your written statement, you didn't say anything about it today,

19 but in your written statement, did you mention the incident with the

20 Banovic brothers and some Albanians?

21 A. Yes, I did mention that.

22 Q. Could you please tell us something more about it? It wasn't said

23 but it nevertheless is in the written statement.

24 A. This special treatment by the Banovic brothers were the Albanians

25 at first. I didn't know all the Albanians, but I did see one guy whom I

Page 4312

1 saw and whom they killed. He used to have a sweet shop. He had a sweet

2 shop; I believe it was at the station and it was called Zvijedas.

3 Q. How do you know that it was them who killed him?

4 A. Well, they beat him with baseball bats inside, and they would take

5 him out. When he would regain consciousness and recover slightly for a

6 day or two, then they would come again and beat him.

7 Q. Did you see it all?

8 A. It was all in Room 2.

9 Q. Where you were?

10 A. Yes, where I was, in my room.

11 Q. Did you see him die?

12 A. I saw him die very well because he was in the room near me. One

13 couldn't stand the room from all the stench that was there, and we asked

14 these soldiers to wash him and some blue fluid was coming out of his

15 mouth. Then when they allowed us to wash him, we did wash him, and less

16 than two ours later he died.

17 Q. How long had you been with him in his room before that?

18 A. Well, he must have been in that room eight or ten days before. He

19 was also in Room 1 first and then he was transferred. I can't really

20 remember every detail.

21 Q. Was that man Jasmin Izejiri?

22 A. I wouldn't know what his name was.

23 Q. But you were there for eight days together and you say that he

24 used to have this sweet shop, Zvijedas, at the railway station. Wouldn't

25 you know what they called him?

Page 4313

1 A. We were about 400, between 300 and 400, in one room. How could we

2 know each other's names? One knew the names of neighbours.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Stojanovic, was this a

4 comment or was this a question? You know very well that if you make

5 comments -- please ask questions, not comments.

6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 Q. If I'm correct, there was yet another incident which was not

8 mentioned in your testimony today and yet one finds it in your written

9 statement. You mentioned the incident where between 150 and 180 prisoners

10 were killed. Is it quite true, what you said in your written statement?

11 A. Yes. If I'm correct, it was on St. Peter's Day, according to this

12 calendar.

13 Q. Was it the prisoners from Room 3?

14 A. Those were prisoners from Room 3, down to the last one, and they

15 were from Hambarine, from that part.

16 Q. On that evening, did a truck come with soldiers and take some men

17 out? Did some soldiers take some men from that room?

18 A. First, a truck full of soldiers came and they took out 30 men from

19 Room 3, about 30 men from Room 3. Then they beat them for about one hour,

20 and after all the screams and cries of pain, one couldn't stand it any

21 longer, and then one heard sounds of shots from pistols. After a while,

22 all sounds died out. And then ...

23 Q. Yes, please go on.

24 A. When they had finished those men off, it was at nightfall, and

25 then men who were locked in Room 3, they were all close relatives, very

Page 4314

1 many brothers of the first blood or uncles, fathers, sons, so they were

2 locked there, and all the windows and doors were closed so they had no air

3 to breathe. They began to crowd and beat on the door, asking to be let

4 out, and then the troops opened fire on them. They were firing through

5 windows, through doors, through walls, and it went on practically until

6 daybreak. And then the gunfire stopped.

7 Q. Did you recognise any of those soldiers who were firing?

8 A. How could we? We were all locked; all the rooms were locked.

9 Metal doors, tall walls, and windows also very high up, under the ceiling,

10 practically.

11 Q. Did you see the previous incident when they took out those men and

12 tortured them? Could you see any of that?

13 A. No, we couldn't see any of it. We could only hear it. Because it

14 was Room 3, Room 4, they were one next to the other so we could hear it,

15 and in the end, we heard the shots when they were liquidating them.

16 Q. On the eve of that incident, when was the last time that you had

17 been outside the room?

18 A. At that time I wouldn't really know the exact time, but that

19 afternoon we were. It was dinner time.

20 Q. Did you see any machine-guns?

21 A. There were two or three machine-guns in front of our door. One

22 had been placed there a couple of days before that and the other two were

23 on an earlier date.

24 Q. When was that machine-gun set up there?

25 A. I don't know on what day it was. I know it had been placed there

Page 4315

1 two or three days prior to the incident.

2 Q. Could you tell us approximately the placement of those

3 machine-guns? You don't have to be very precise, but across what rooms

4 were they?

5 A. Two of them were in front of the rooms numbered 3 and 4, and one

6 of them, as far as I can remember, was a little further away, towards the

7 scales and the guard post.

8 Q. You mentioned an incident today involving a man by the name of

9 Spija. You said you had seen Dusko Tadic prior to the incident entering

10 the camp.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Was he alone walking around the camp?

13 A. Dusko Tadic came to the camp alone. He was wearing a training

14 suit, a track suit, and a pair of sneakers.

15 Q. Thank you. If I understand you correctly, people from that room

16 left the room later on to bring him back to the room.

17 A. Yes. Two people were called out to bring him back to the room.

18 Q. Do you know those two individuals?

19 A. No, I don't.

20 Q. Do you know who called them out?

21 A. One of the soldiers called them out, but I don't know his name

22 because we were locked up in the room.

23 Q. Could you recognise his voice?

24 A. Come on. Would you be able to recognise my voice if you see me

25 for the first time?

Page 4316

1 Q. So the answer is no.

2 A. No. How could I recognise him?

3 Q. You mentioned an incident involving a policeman, Bahonjic. Were

4 you interrogated about this incident during your interview by the

5 Prosecutor in 1995?

6 A. I mentioned that Bahonjic had been killed when they asked me about

7 him.

8 Q. Could you be perhaps more precise? You told us that several

9 individuals took part in his beating, including Zigic. Could you tell us

10 exactly when it was when Zigic beat him? You don't have to give us the

11 exact date. You can situate it in respect of some other incident.

12 A. After I arrived in the camp, Bahonjic was in the room selected for

13 special treatment, and this all took place after my arrival, perhaps seven

14 days into my stay there. And after that, Bahonjic died.

15 Q. Do you know when?

16 A. No. I know that he was alive for about a week. He would come to

17 and then lose consciousness again because of the beatings, and this is how

18 he died.

19 Q. You told us about that beating. Let me ask you a direct

20 question. Did you ever see while you were in Keraterm Zigic kill anyone?

21 A. That he killed anyone directly, that he shot from his pistol, no,

22 I didn't see that.

23 Q. You told us that you had been exchanged after your stay in the

24 camp, in the month of September. Who were you exchanged for?

25 A. I was exchanged for a Serbian, non-commissioned officer or an

Page 4317

1 officer, I don't know. He was the brother of the captain who came to

2 fetch me in Trnopolje and who took me away.

3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have a couple of

4 questions relating to two protected witnesses so we would kindly ask to go

5 into private session for this purpose.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Before we go into private

7 session, are you going to confront the witness with the testimony of other

8 witnesses? What is the objective of your questions, Mr. Stojanovic?

9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours, we will not be

10 confronting the witness with other witnesses. We only have a few

11 questions concerning the witnesses themselves, witnesses who have already

12 been heard, whether they were present there or not, and that will be the

13 end of our examination.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, then. Let us then go

15 into private session for a couple of moments.

16 [Private session]

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4318

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Page 4319

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3 (redacted)

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5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 [Open session]

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Stojanovic, we are now

13 in public session. Please go on.

14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I should first like to thank the

15 witness. We would like to tender the entire statement of the witness,

16 Witness AE, which was given to the OTP on the 11th of November, 1995. We

17 would like to tender the entire statement into evidence. We have to do

18 that, and I hope you will understand certain of our problems. The

19 statement does not contain most parts of the evidence that we heard today;

20 on the other hand, there have been several other incidents such as the

21 incident involving Bahonjic and the beating of the group selected for

22 special treatment, including Mr. Tokmadzic. This is not contained in the

23 statement --

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Stojanovic, we do not need

25 to go into details. You are simply asking for the entire document to be

Page 4320

1 admitted into evidence. We will see about the reasons for that later on.

2 Mr. Keegan, do you have any objections?

3 MR. KEEGAN: We have no objection, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] However, I have a question for

5 Mr. Stojanovic. Do you remember the decision of the Chamber regarding

6 this issue? Do you recall that decision, Mr. Stojanovic, or not?

7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I do, Your Honour. However,

8 the situation is somewhat different today. We have heard a completely

9 different testimony today compared to the statement. I'm not talking

10 about the details. We have spent most of the day today listening to the

11 things that were not contained in the statement, and on the other hand we

12 didn't hear anything about some very important things that are in the

13 statement. So the final picture that we have is completely different from

14 the one that can be gained from the statement of this witness.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Have you finished with your

16 request, with your application?

17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I really tried to explain to you

18 the difficulties that we had in our cross-examination, and that was the

19 reason for my intervention. I apologise for that.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We will see about that later on,

21 Mr. Stojanovic. You can now go back to your seat.

22 Mr. Keegan, is there going to be any redirect examination of this

23 witness?

24 MR. KEEGAN: Very briefly, Your Honour.

25 Re-examined by Mr. Keegan:

Page 4321

1 Q. Witness AE, when you testified earlier about the beating of the

2 man you knew as Spija, when he was taken outside of the room to be beaten,

3 could you see who was involved in the beating?

4 A. I'm not sure about Spija. The door was locked. We were all

5 locked inside. I just know that Tadic came in, that he went to the

6 garage, and that two or three minutes later Spija was the first one to be

7 called out.

8 Q. After he was taken out of the room, could you see who was involved

9 in the beating?

10 A. No, because the door was closed immediately after he left the

11 room. When he was killed, when they called us out to pick him up, two

12 people left the room and the door was closed again. So when he was

13 brought in, they closed the door again and they left him inside.

14 Q. At the time of the Room 3 massacre, you were in Room 4.

15 A. Yes, I was in Room 4.

16 Q. And the door to that room was closed.

17 A. All of the doors were closed, locked up.

18 Q. From where you were in Room 4, you could not see outside to see

19 who was taking part in the shooting.

20 A. Not all of us were able to see. However, part of the door was

21 made of glass. The upper part had glass panes on. The upper part of the

22 door had glass on.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Keegan, I believe that the

24 witness has already answered that question.

25 MR. KEEGAN: I'm just trying to clarify, Your Honour, since we

Page 4322

1 have indications that --

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, please continue.

3 MR. KEEGAN: -- the witness gave inconsistencies.

4 Q. With respect to the beating of the Albanian who owned the sweet

5 shop, when he was taken out of the room and beaten, could you see who was

6 taking part in the beatings?

7 A. I couldn't see it when it happened outside. However, he was often

8 beaten inside the room, and he was not the only Albanian to receive

9 beatings. There were several Albanians. And the Banovic brothers would

10 only beat the Albanians with a baseball bat.

11 Q. Thank you. Now, Witness AE, you've indicated that you knew the

12 man who you identified in the camp as taking part in the beating of you

13 and others as Zoran Zigic who was a taxi driver. I'd like you to look

14 around the courtroom today and see if you see that individual here in this

15 courtroom.

16 A. I believe he is the one sitting over there.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Just a second, please.

18 Mr. Stojanovic.

19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.

20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I believe, Your Honour, that at

21 this stage any recognition or identification cannot be accepted because we

22 are now in redirect examination which follows cross-examination by the

23 Defence.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. I think that we really

25 need to insist on finding the truth. I will ask the witness in my

Page 4323

1 capacity of the Presiding Judge of the Chamber the following question:

2 Witness, you have spoken about the person you referred to as

3 Zigic. You told us that he was a taxi driver and you told us a number of

4 things about him; you have also described the individual in question. Can

5 you now tell us if you can see the person in question here in this

6 courtroom today?

7 A. Yes. I think he is the one sitting in the middle. At least he

8 resembles the individual in question, because people change and eight

9 years have gone by, but I believe that he is the one.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Could you please be more

11 precise? Could you tell us exactly where you can see him?

12 A. Yes, I can. He's the second one sitting in the row next to the

13 policeman.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] How many rows can you see?

15 A. I can see two rows of people, the first one and the second one at

16 the back against the wall.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So the second row is the one

18 against the wall? Is that right?

19 A. Yes, that is correct.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So the first row is the one in

21 front of the second one, yes or no?

22 A. When I say the second row, I am referring to the row against the

23 wall, row of people sitting against the wall.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, then. Could you now

25 tell us where the person you have been talking about is sitting. Where is

Page 4324

1 the individual that you know as being Zigic?

2 A. I am no longer sure myself. He's either number one, this person

3 here, or the one behind him. They resemble each other very much. But I

4 know Zigic from eight years before. He was dark in complexion, slim. He

5 may have changed. Now they look alike, I think. So it's either person

6 number one, or the one behind him with the grey suit and the longish hair.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. You may

8 sit down. The conclusion is that you're not sure. You're not sure

9 whether it's the person sitting in the first row or the one sitting in the

10 second row. Can we draw such a conclusion?

11 A. At this point, I cannot tell you for sure. I am convinced that

12 it's the person -- the last one sitting against the wall. I don't know

13 because they resemble each other very much.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, then. I know it's

15 difficult, and you have certain doubts about that.

16 Mr. Keegan, you may continue with your redirect examination.

17 MR. KEEGAN: Thank you, Your Honour. I don't have any other

18 further questions. I would, however, for the clarity of the record, quite

19 frankly, I would have liked to have responded to the objection because I

20 was satisfied the fact that the individual knew the person he was claiming

21 beat him, and therefore it didn't require an ID under many systems.

22 I did the in-court because of what was raised by counsel to try

23 and detract from that identification, at which point the witness

24 identified the same man twice, and only after prompted many times about

25 describing exactly where he was did he begin to falter himself.

Page 4325

1 I would like the record to note that he did, in fact, point to the

2 same man twice, and had we asked simply the colour of the suit, I think

3 that might have clarified it immediately. I think the questioning

4 probably made the witness himself unsure of his own identification. But

5 he pointed to the same individual twice, and I think the record should

6 reflect that.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, my microphone was

8 off. Do you have any objection, Mr. Stojanovic? Any objection?

9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No, I don't think you should

11 have any objection because Mr. Keegan has finished.

12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, Your Honours, our only

13 objection would be that, on the contrary, we are not sure what would

14 benefit us more, the failure to identify or a successful identification.

15 We only wanted the proper procedure to be followed.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. I believe that the

17 procedure was adequately followed, and the Chamber will make its own

18 judgement of the procedure. I hope that that's that. Do you have any

19 doubts as regards the procedure or the transcript, Mr. Stojanovic? I

20 believe that the transcript is clear. The Chamber will assess what is

21 contained in the transcript.

22 Do you have any questions for the witness, Judge Riad?

23 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] No, I don't.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Madam Judge Wald.

25 JUDGE WALD: I have just one question. You mentioned that the

Page 4326

1 person that you knew as Zigic was present when you arrived at Keraterm,

2 and one of the other soldiers said, "Here are some four people for special

3 treatment for you, Zigic." Later on you mentioned the fact that one of

4 the shift commanders stopped him from a beating that you were involved in,

5 and finally you told us that Zigic took part in the escort of some of the

6 prisoners from Keraterm to Trnopolje.

7 What I wonder is what your overall impression was of the role that

8 Zigic, the person you knew, you said was Zigic, what his role was in

9 Keraterm. Did the other guards treat him as somebody who worked there?

10 Did he have the run of the place to come and go, or was he subject to the

11 control of the regular guards? I mean, how did you as a prisoner on the

12 basis of your experience interpret his power, authority, the privileges he

13 was given at Keraterm.

14 A. He had great privileges. He came to the camp as he pleased, he

15 did as he pleased, and no one could do anything about it.

16 JUDGE WALD: But you told us that one of the shift commanders in

17 fact came along and said "stop that," and he did stop it, so that suggests

18 that perhaps some people could -- there were some limits. Is that right,

19 or not?

20 A. Yes, that is correct. However, after we had all been beaten up by

21 him, after a number of provocations, maybe one or two hours later, at that

22 point Kajin, who was standing next to the scales, told him to stop, and he

23 stopped because he had -- he was already exhausted from the beatings.

24 JUDGE WALD: And after Kajin stopped him on that occasion, did you

25 see him again in the camp? I mean, did you see him afterwards, either

Page 4327

1 another day or after that? In other words, did you see him come back

2 again even after the incident when Kajin stopped him?

3 A. He would come very often, almost every day. Before that, and

4 after that.

5 JUDGE WALD: All right.

6 A. Until we left for Trnopolje.

7 JUDGE WALD: Thank you.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Madam

9 Judge.

10 I have a question for you, witness. You told us that Zigic had a

11 bandage on his hand. Do you remember which hand it was?

12 A. I don't know exactly which hand it was. All I know is that he

13 said that he had fired from a hand-held rocket launcher at Dido, an

14 individual, and that is how he got injured; and as a result of that, he

15 had a bandage on his hand.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Did it prevent him from beating

17 other prisoners, the fact that he had a bandaged hand?

18 A. No, by no means. He could use his other hand to beat people.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Witness.

20 We have finished with your testimony here. We would like to thank you for

21 coming here to testify before the Tribunal. I will first have to ask the

22 usher to lower down the blinds so that you can leave the courtroom in a

23 protected manner.

24 The usher will show you out of the courtroom. Thank you once

25 again, Witness.

Page 4328

1 [The witness withdrew]

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, what will be

4 the number of this exhibit, the exhibit that Mr. Stojanovic would like to

5 tender into evidence?

6 THE REGISTRAR: The number for this document is D3/4.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We have already discussed the

8 request made by Mr. Stojanovic, and pursuant to the decision that has

9 already been made by the Chamber, the exhibit is not going to be admitted.

10 Mr. Keegan, I don't think that it makes any sense to call our next

11 witness because we still have to work for one hour and a half -- we have

12 already worked for one hour and a half, and we have the Status Conference,

13 and I don't think that we should really start examining our next witness.

14 What is your position on that? Do you have a witness waiting?

15 MR. KEEGAN: We have a witness, Your Honour, but it's not

16 problem.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, then. We will

18 adjourn for the day, and let me just remind you of our Status Conference

19 at half past three. We will -- we have to take the opportunity and

20 discuss some additional matters. There is a motion made by the accused

21 Zigic filed on the 20th of August, maybe this is -- this concerns only the

22 Defence of the defendant Zigic. We have to discuss the issue of the

23 Exhibit D21/1, which was tendered yesterday. Then we also have to discuss

24 the state of the indictment as mentioned by the Prosecutor. There is also

25 another request concerning the defendant Zigic and expert testimony. So

Page 4329

1 we have to discuss all these issues on top of the issues that we announced

2 yesterday, that is, a motion to change the list of witnesses, and also I

3 have to say "motions" of the Prosecutor of the 21st and the 28th of August

4 for protective measures. We will have to ask some clarification because

5 we have two lists of witnesses for this week. One does not supersede the

6 other, so we have to see what the situation is.

7 I have mentioned a number of issues that have to be discussed.

8 Some of them were not previously announced, and that is why I wanted to

9 bring it up before we adjourn for the day.

10 Mr. Keegan, you're on your feet.

11 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour, if I may, I'd like also to add to

12 the list. With respect to the consolidated indictment which we gave

13 advanced working copies of, it has been filed now finally with the

14 registrar. There was some errors in the French translation of the

15 schedules which was the problem; we had to get those corrected. But it is

16 finally done, so it is available in both languages, so it will be ready

17 for the session.

18 Also, the Prosecution would intend to introduce affidavits

19 pursuant to Rule 94 ter, and I would appreciate the opportunity to discuss

20 the mechanics of how those will be introduced so that we might have some

21 idea. We have some already prepared which we can present and discuss how

22 the Trial Chamber would like those introduced. Because it's such a new

23 process, we believe there is, perhaps, room to discuss how that may be

24 most efficiently dealt with.

25 And finally, we have now received the final translations of

Page 4330

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Page 4331

1 documents which were admitted by the Trial Chamber pursuant to the motion

2 for admission of documentary evidence, and if the Trial Chamber may

3 remember from the report when it got the case, some of the documents when

4 that motion was originally made were in draft translation form, and we

5 were all awaiting the final translation. Those are now ready, and we are

6 prepared to submit those packages. They are substantially the same, it's

7 now we have final translations for some of the documents versus the drafts

8 which were originally submitted; but those are documents which were

9 already admitted as evidence pursuant to the Trial Chamber order, and we

10 now would just seek to substitute, if you will, the final as it is a

11 requirement of the Trial Chamber to have final translations.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

13 Mr. Keegan.

14 As regards the Defence, are there any other issues that you would

15 like to discuss during the Status Conference today? Yes, Mr. O'Sullivan,

16 and then after Mr. O'Sullivan, Mr. Fila.

17 MR. O'SULLIVAN: There is something I'd like to raise during the

18 conference, but first if I can respond to the new indictment. We have not

19 received the filed copy, so I submit that it's premature for us to be

20 discussing this. We would like to receive it and review it.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Okay.

22 MR. O'SULLIVAN: And will we be told -- well, Rule 94 ter, the

23 affidavits, this is a new procedure, and perhaps we can discuss during the

24 break to streamline this and shorten our discussion at the Status

25 Conference.

Page 4332

1 And will Your Honours be discussing the trial schedule between now

2 and mid-October? We hear next week we're on for two days or four days,

3 and will there be a break in the six weeks, that sort of thing. That

4 would be helpful.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Yes, Mr. Fila. You

6 wanted to say something?

7 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in order not to waste

8 time for a status conference, and we still have a few minutes here, I

9 would simply like to say that somebody changed today the manner in which

10 the accused were transported to the Tribunal. I do not know why. They

11 were forbidden from bringing an apple along or bringing papers along, and

12 now we are to waste our time at a Status Conference about things which, if

13 you will excuse my language, about nonsense. I really don't know what to

14 call it.

15 And will you please see that that is somehow resolved through the

16 good officers or Mr. Fourmey in order not to waste the precious time of

17 this Tribunal, whether somebody can eat an apple or not or whether he

18 carry along three or four boxes of papers or not. It was all possible

19 until this morning, and I simply mention this now in order not to waste

20 your time this afternoon.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Fila.

22 Mr. Stojanovic, do you have perhaps something that you should like

23 to add to the agenda?

24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. Regrettably,

25 we do not really want to add to the burden, but there is a matter which we

Page 4333

1 already raised once. We said that the Prosecutor's Office was not always

2 handing over all the material as it is bound to do in a language that the

3 accused understand, and it is very -- it is a major problem for us when we

4 do not get them.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Stojanovic, can that be

6 discussed at a Status Conference or not?

7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that is my suggestion.

8 And yet another matter, and that is the disclosure of new

9 documents by the Prosecution. I've received over about a thousand pages

10 lately, I've left everything else, and I wonder whether this will affect

11 the calendar and the conclusion of the case, and I should also like to see

12 it discussed at a status conference.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I believe it is already on the

14 agenda. Very well, thank you.

15 I think that we have decided already as a rule that a party which

16 has an obligation or a request, that they should first communicate with

17 the other party to see whether there is an agreement or not, and only when

18 there is no agreement, then we do it. I just wish to remind you of that

19 because here we have some motions, requests, which had not been

20 communicated beforehand to the other party, and I believe that note should

21 be taken of this in order to make the best possible use of the time and to

22 improve in our efficiency, because as you know, this is our major

23 concern. And many times I repeat this, the Chamber exercises its

24 authority, its authority, but it prefers not to act as authoritarian, but

25 to do it in a comprehensive manner. However, if a moment comes when the

Page 4334

1 Chamber has to exercise its authority in full, then I do tell you that the

2 Chamber will behave as an authoritarian.

3 If you behave in a certain manner, then the Chamber will be --

4 conduct the debate. We do have to exercise our powers in an explanatory,

5 comprehensive manner, but if so demanded by our work to conduct it in a

6 manner which is deemed appropriate, then we shall do so.

7 Very well, but we shall continue our discussions at the Status

8 Conference at half past three, 3.30.

9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.22 p.m., to

10 be reconvened on Wednesday the 30th day of August,

11 2000, at 9.30 a.m.

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