Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4384

1 Wednesday, 30 August 2000

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.52 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated. Please sit

6 down.

7 Good morning, ladies and gentlemen; good morning, technicians,

8 interpreters; good morning to our legal assistants, representatives of the

9 registry; good morning, Mr. Keegan, Mr. Waidyaratne; good morning to the

10 Defence team. I can see that everybody is here. Good morning to the

11 accused.

12 I should like to apologise for this delay, but we had to do some

13 work before the beginning of the hearing this morning. I think that

14 Mr. Keegan has something to tell us.

15 Mr. Keegan, you have the floor, but I hope that the debate is not

16 going to be reopened once again. I just think that you have a piece of

17 information to communicate to us.

18 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour. Given the debate yesterday, I

19 thought it prudent to advise the Chamber that we did discuss with the

20 Defence the issue of whether there could be any agreements with respect to

21 the motion to revise the witness list.

22 There is an agreement to disagree on the basic request; however,

23 it would appear that, as indicated yesterday, if the Chamber rules for the

24 Prosecution, then we might be able to reach agreements on modalities of

25 how the witnesses might be brought and in what order. But the basic issue

Page 4385

1 is one that will need to be decided. Of course, we would request a

2 decision as soon as possible, because obviously it impacts all the issues

3 of the witness schedule, et cetera.

4 Secondly, I've been advised by the Defence that before they would

5 be in a position to comment on the request for consolidation of the

6 indictment, they would need a translation into B/C/S, which we agree with,

7 so to the extent that that could be accelerated so that we could then

8 address that at the earliest possible opportunity. Thank you, Your

9 Honour.

10 I'm sorry, Your Honour. There was one point of agreement, I'm

11 sorry. The Defence has withdrawn their objection to Witness F, so there

12 are now two witnesses. We now have seven witnesses which are disputed and

13 two which are agreed on.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, then. We take note

15 of this information and, as I have already told you, at the end of the

16 hearing today we will render our ruling.

17 Mr. Keegan, I think it's your turn now. We are going to have our

18 next witness, I believe. Oh, Mr. Waidyaratne. I'm sorry.

19 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour. The Prosecution would

20 call Witness AN.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Stojanovic. Do you

22 have an objection to raise?

23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Good morning.

24 As regards point 3, item 3 in the document that we received from the

25 Prosecution, the information concerns Zigic Zoran, and this is going

Page 4386

1 beyond the scope of the indictment. We do not have any information about

2 this event, neither in the indictment nor in annex D. I think this is

3 inadmissible at this stage of the indictment because we are not in the

4 investigation stage. I believe that the Prosecution has charged only for

5 the events for which they have a certain amount of evidence, and the

6 Defence has prepared itself only for the information contained in the

7 indictment.

8 We should like to invoke Rule 65 ter here, according to which the

9 list of witnesses that the Prosecutor intends to invite has to contain, in

10 some detail, specific references to counts in relevant paragraphs in the

11 indictment. We should like to hear the Prosecutor exactly what part of

12 the indictment is going to be relevant pursuant to point 3 of the document

13 entitled "Points of Examination." Thank you.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The Chamber does not have the

15 document that you have mentioned, Mr. Stojanovic, but I will give an

16 opportunity to the Prosecutor to respond to your objection.

17 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Your Honour, I think the Defence counsel is

18 referring to the points for examination which was given to them prior to

19 that. I would give a copy to the Court, if it's necessary.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, because we do not have it.

21 Mr. Waidyaratne, would you like to respond to the objection?

22 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Yes, Your Honour. The Prosecution has disclosed

23 the statement of the Witness AN. In his statement made on the 10th of

24 January, 1999, he has referred to these incidents and the persons whom he

25 speaks about. And also may I be permitted to say: In the indictment

Page 4387

1 against Zoran Zigic, we have alleged that he instigated and committed, or

2 otherwise aided and abetted, the persecution of Bosnian Muslims, Bosnian

3 Croats, including the persons mentioned in the schedule D. And may I also

4 state, under counts 11 and 13, that he -- we have alleged that other than

5 the persons mentioned in schedule D, that he had participated in the

6 persecution of the other detainees in the Keraterm camp. So therefore I

7 think, Your Honour, the objection cannot be sustained.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Stojanovic, how do you

9 respond to that?

10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, for

11 giving me the floor. The indictment, including the schedules, is very

12 specific, especially the part where persecution is discussed. However,

13 these individuals are not mentioned in this specific part, so I don't

14 think it should be admissible for us to offer -- to have to offer any

15 defence in respect of these individuals, because they are not mentioned in

16 schedule D or in any other paragraph, including the counts referring to

17 the persecution.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, Mr. Waidyaratne, I

19 couldn't quite follow you. What are the paragraphs of the indictment that

20 you mentioned? I'm sorry. I apologise, it's my mistake.

21 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Very well, paragraph 29.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: 29, yes. Yes, okay, 29.

23 MR. WAIDYARATNE: And counts 11 and 13.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: And?

25 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Counts 11 and 13, 1 to 3. 1 to 3, and 11 and

Page 4388

1 13.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Yes.

3 MR. WAIDYARATNE: And may I also state at this stage, Your Honour,

4 Schedule D, under counts 1 to 3, persecutions, inhumane acts, and outrages

5 upon personal dignity, the first column which says "Victims: All

6 prisoners confined in Ormarska, Keraterm, and Trnopolje camps during the

7 period between 24th May 1992 and the 30th of August, 1992.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What is therefore the period

9 that you're going to discuss? What are the relevant dates?

10 MR. WAIDYARATNE: From the 24th May 1992, and the 30th of August,

11 1992.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please.

13 JUDGE WALD: May I ask you one question?

14 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Yes, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE WALD: On the witness statements for Witness AN that were

16 disclosed to the Defence, is there any mention of these individuals as

17 being the objects of the persecution charge?

18 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Yes, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE WALD: There is.

20 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Very much.

21 JUDGE WALD: So it's already in a witness statement.

22 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Very much.

23 JUDGE WALD: So it's only not -- I don't mean only, but the crux

24 of the Defence objection as I understand it is that it's not in the

25 indictment and Schedule D, not that they had no information that these

Page 4389

1 particular people might be --

2 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Specifically that the names have not been

3 mentioned.

4 JUDGE WALD: Yes.

5 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Yes.

6 JUDGE WALD: Okay, thank you.

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Before we make a ruling,

9 Mr. Stojanovic, can you confirm the information that the Prosecutor has

10 just given you? Can you read the relevant information in the indictment?

11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] In the indictment itself, no,

12 Your Honours. I really cannot see any mention of the said individuals in

13 the indictment or in the schedules. We were unable to find any of these

14 individuals. But it is true that the information is contained in the

15 statement, and that the statement has been disclosed to us, however --

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, then. Thank you very

17 much. We will take note of that information.

18 We will reject the objection raised by the Defence, and let us

19 have our witness brought in to the courtroom.

20 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Usher, could you bring

22 Witness AN into the courtroom.

23 [The witness entered court]

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness AN. Can

25 you hear me?

Page 4390

1 THE WITNESS: Yes.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You will first read the solemn

3 declaration that the usher is giving you.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

6 and nothing but the truth.

7 WITNESS: WITNESS AN

8 [Witness answered through interpreter]

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated now. The

10 usher is going to show you a piece of paper which should contain your name

11 and surname. Could you please have a look at that piece of paper and tell

12 us by saying simply "yes" or "no" if that is indeed your name.

13 A. Yes, yes.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. You're now

15 going to answer questions that will be put to you by Mr. Waidyaratne who

16 is standing on your righthand side.

17 Mr. Waidyaratne, the witness is yours.

18 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Examined by Mr. Waidyaratne:

20 Q. Good morning, Witness.

21 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Your Honour, may I request to go into private

22 session as the witness would be speaking about certain personal

23 information.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, we will go into private

25 session.

Page 4391

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Page 4392

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 [Open session]

7 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Witness, I will draw your attention --

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: We are in public session.

9 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may continue.

11 MR. WAIDYARATNE:

12 Q. Witness, I will draw your attention to the day you were arrested.

13 Do you remember that day?

14 A. It was on the 30th of May, 1992, in Prijedor.

15 Q. Where were you? Were you in your own house?

16 A. I was arrested in front of my house at 5.00 in the afternoon on

17 May 30th.

18 Q. Could you please state to the Court what happened then?

19 A. A man in a police uniform arrived. His name was Svjetlica. He

20 was rather fair, and he told us to put on our jackets. And he told me and

21 my brothers that there was a bus waiting for us at the main road not far

22 from where I lived and that we should go, and that we would be taken for

23 an informative interview, and that we would be released two or three days

24 after that.

25 There were a lot of people there from my local commune, a lot of

Page 4393

1 my relatives, my neighbours, and friends, and we were all taken to the

2 barracks. When we reached the barracks, we did not get off the bus. The

3 driver was -- went to the administration building, and then he came back,

4 and we went to Omarska. Upon our arrival in Omarska, we remained on the

5 buses; we didn't get off the bus.

6 Q. Now, you mentioned about barracks. Where was this barracks?

7 A. The barracks was located on the road towards Bosanska Dubica, at

8 the outskirts of Prijedor.

9 Q. And you mentioned that -- said that in your testimony that you

10 were taken in buses. Who were the people, other people in the bus?

11 A. Other people were my relatives, my brothers, my neighbours, and

12 they were all of Croat and Muslim ethnicity. We were all loaded onto the

13 buses and taken away.

14 Q. You said that the bus went to Omarska. Do you know what this

15 place -- could you describe as to what this place was?

16 A. The place is located in the direction of Banja Luka and it's maybe

17 six or seven kilometres off the main road to the right-hand side, and this

18 is where we were brought. We were brought to the garage building, the

19 administration building, which contained a restaurant. And we remained on

20 the buses. We didn't get off at that point. After a while we were told

21 that there was no room for us over there and we were taken back to

22 Prijedor, and we were actually taken to the Keraterm complex.

23 Q. Witness, this Keraterm complex you mentioned, could you very

24 briefly explain as to what -- the location of this place.

25 A. Keraterm is located at the outskirts of Prijedor, towards Banja

Page 4394

1 Luka, on the left-hand side of the brick factory. Keraterm used to be a

2 ceramic tile factory or fireproof equipment factory.

3 Q. After you reach the camp Keraterm, what were you ordered to do?

4 A. Upon our arrival in Keraterm, it was already getting dark and we

5 were ordered off the buses. The soldiers were probably of Serbian

6 origin. They searched us all and they put us up in a very large room

7 which had no lights inside. We entered that room and we were supposed to

8 spend the night there, and they told us they would see in the morning what

9 they would do with us.

10 Q. During your stay in Keraterm, did you get to know as to how this

11 room was referred to by the detainees?

12 A. When we got there, we realised it was a very large room, and later

13 on we were told that it was referred to as room number 2.

14 Q. Thank you. How long did you spend in Keraterm?

15 A. I spent four days in Keraterm.

16 Q. During your stay in Keraterm, did you see a person by the name of

17 Zoran Zigic?

18 A. When I arrived in Keraterm, that is, when it dawned on the

19 following day, a man in a military uniform with a red beret appeared. He

20 was carrying a Kalashnikov or some other type of automatic of rifle. He

21 came to the door, he raised his rifle, and he said, "My name is Zoran

22 Zigic, balija motherfuckers."

23 Q. Did you know this person before this instance?

24 A. The kind of job I was involved in was such that I knew him because

25 he was a taxi driver, and I would see him at the petrol station. And I

Page 4395

1 learnt from Sefik Jakupovic, who was also a taxi driver, that he liked to

2 drink. And when we arrived in Keraterm, he introduced himself personally

3 to us.

4 Q. You said he introduced himself. You mean Zoran Zigic?

5 A. Yes. Zoran Zigic introduced himself in person when we arrived in

6 Keraterm.

7 Q. When you saw him that time, how was he dressed? You said that he

8 was dressed in military uniform.

9 A. Yes. He was wearing a camouflage military uniform. He had a red

10 beret on his head and he was armed with a Kalashnikov, an automatic rifle.

11 Q. Did you see him clearly? Did you recognise him?

12 A. Yes, I recognised him. We could see him clearly. It was

13 daylight. And he entered room number 2.

14 Q. Witness AN, did you know a person by the name of Zeric?

15 A. I knew a man by the name of Zeric. Mr. Zeric was a detainee like

16 ourselves, and at one occasion Zigic was walking around the Keraterm

17 compound and he recognised him and immediately started kicking him. And

18 he was cursing his balija mother, accusing him of selling some hand

19 grenades at the market. And he continued to beat him until the person

20 almost fainted.

21 Q. Did Zeric, when he was beaten by Zoran Zigic, say anything to

22 Zoran Zigic?

23 A. He was begging him. He was saying, "Ziga, I have nothing to do

24 with it." However, Ziga simply continued saying, "I don't believe you. I

25 know what you did," and he continued kicking him in his ribs and in his

Page 4396

1 legs. And meanwhile we were all sitting down on the asphalt part of the

2 area.

3 Q. Did you know to which ethnicity Zeric belonged to?

4 A. Zeric was a Muslim.

5 Q. Now I would ask you about another person by the name of Samir

6 Sistek. Did you know him before the war?

7 A. I knew him. He was a buggy driver from the Cerac area.

8 Q. How old was he? Was he young or --

9 A. He was youngish, perhaps 20 years of age. He was rather strongly

10 built.

11 Q. Did you see Samir Sistek in the camp?

12 A. Yes. He was with us in the camp, in the same room.

13 Q. Did you see Samir Sistek being called out at any instance?

14 A. Yes. Zigic called him out and he said, "Kokijas, come on, get

15 out," and Samir did get up. And as he was getting out, while he was still

16 at the door, we could hear the blows and we could hear Zigic say, "Look at

17 this motherfucker. I cannot -- one blow is not enough for him." And then

18 he made him sing Chetnik songs like "Od Topole Do Ravne Gore" and "Srbija

19 Nije Mala," and songs like that, and Samir could sing them.

20 Q. Did you see Samir return to the room?

21 A. Yes. Samir came back to the room. He had been badly beaten up.

22 His face was injured. And he said, "Look what he did to me, and I

23 never -- and I had never done him any harm."

24 Q. Did you know as to what ethnicity Samir belonged to?

25 A. Samir was a Muslim.

Page 4397

1 Q. Witness AN, during your detention in room 2, did you see a person

2 by the name of Ivo Sikura?

3 A. Yes, I did see a person called Ivo Sikura, a man who was about 75

4 years of age, and he was a Croat.

5 Q. Did you see him being called out by any person while he was in

6 room 2?

7 A. Sure. Zoran Zigic called him out, told him, "Ivo, come out." Ivo

8 is an elderly man. He went out and Zigic began to beat him. And he

9 implored him, "Don't do it to me, Zoran. I'm an old man. I never had

10 anything to do with politics." And Zigic was telling him, "Fuck you.

11 Don't you know what your son was doing?"

12 Q. Did Zigic accuse him of anything else or say anything to him?

13 A. He accused him because of his son, Zeljko. Zeljko was a physician

14 in Prijedor.

15 Q. Did you see Ivo return to the room?

16 A. Yes. Ivo came in, an elderly man, and he was all black and blue.

17 Q. During your detention in Keraterm, were you interrogated?

18 A. Yes. We were taken for interrogation, that is, Modic was

19 interrogated first. There was a list and it was read out and I went

20 upstairs to a man whom I knew very well, but he behaved quite decently.

21 He interrogated us. But he had an officer with him, a captain first class

22 of the former Yugoslav army who was interrogating us. And a soldier who

23 brought me in there also took me back. Nobody laid a finger on us, nobody

24 beat us. And after that we were issued some papers that we had been

25 interrogated, that we are free, and to wait because they would take us

Page 4398

1 back to our homes.

2 Q. After you were released, where did you -- you were at home?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Were you rearrested?

5 A. So we went home with those papers and I stopped mulling around

6 because houses were being set on fire and people were being arrested. And

7 some eight or ten days later, around the 14th, two policemen came. The

8 name of one was Bato Kovacevic. And they came to my place. And I used to

9 know him from before. And he told us to get ready, the three brothers,

10 because they need us at the police. They had to ask us something. And we

11 did so. We went to the police station in Prijedor. He reported to the

12 policeman on duty. And he said, "No, no, no. Nobody is looking for you

13 here." And then Bato says, "Well, they're looking for you in Keraterm,"

14 and so they took us to Keraterm. And again we were told, "Well, they've

15 got their papers. We have nothing to do with them." So Bato took us

16 back to the police station in Prijedor. And then he said, "Well, perhaps

17 somebody in Omarska wants to see you," and he put us behind in his car to

18 take us to Omarska.

19 Q. Were you taken to Omarska?

20 A. The afternoon, around 5.00, a bus came for the three of us, and

21 two men from Ljubija, and for -- a judge from Prijedor, and we were all

22 made to board that bus. And we started and then some more prisoners,

23 detainees, were put on the bus and we were eventually taken to Omarska.

24 Q. Did you recognise this person whom you referred to as "the

25 judge"?

Page 4399

1 A. Yes, I knew him. He was from Prijedor, a middle-aged man. He was

2 on the bus with us, and he went with us to Omarska.

3 Q. Do you recall the name?

4 A. Yes, Esad Mehmedagic.

5 Q. Now, when you reached Omarska, were you ordered out of the bus?

6 A. When we reached Omarska, we were ordered to get off the bus, and

7 when we did so, a man in a military uniform came. His name was Delic, and

8 he asked us where we came from. And we said that we came from the

9 outskirts of Prijedor. And he said "I know them. That's where I played

10 football." And he told the guards, "Do not, do not harm them." So we

11 just had to put our hands behind our -- at the back of our heads and run

12 to the building.

13 Q. Now, were you taken to a room?

14 A. Yes, we were taken. The guards took us to that room. The guard

15 showed us where to go, and we entered Room 15, and there we found many

16 other people from Prijedor who had been brought there earlier.

17 Q. After you went to this place where you referred to as Room 15, did

18 you see a guard at the door?

19 A. Yes. There was a guard at the entrance into the room who did

20 nothing -- who did not harm us, and we entered. And since we had those

21 papers that we had been released from Keraterm, we turned to the guard to

22 give him those papers. And he read through our papers and said that he

23 could not help us because he had to wait for his commander, and we went

24 back into the room.

25 Q. Thereafter, did anybody come to see you while you were in that

Page 4400

1 room?

2 A. After a while that same guard said those last who had arrived

3 should come to the door, and we came to the door. And we had those

4 papers, the three of us, and there was a man in a police uniform, a tall

5 man smiling. We gave him our papers. He read them, and said "I cannot

6 help you until Monday because the interrogators are off."

7 And then we later on we learned that that man's name was Ckalja,

8 and the man who worked with him was Hazim Okic. They worked together in

9 Ljubija. But the man whose nickname was Ckalja, his real name was Momo

10 Gruban.

11 Q. You referred to a person by the name of Okic. Okic was a detainee

12 in that room?

13 A. Yes, he was. Yes, yes, he was a detainee in the same room with

14 us.

15 Q. After this person whom you referred to as Ckalja left, were you

16 called for interrogation?

17 A. Yeah. Well, we arrived on Friday evening. On Monday morning a

18 soldier came with a list and called us out to take us for interrogation,

19 and we were taken to the administrative building in the Omarska camp on

20 the upper floor where the interrogators were.

21 Q. Before we go into the interrogation, another question with regard

22 to the person whom you referred to as Ckalja. Did you get to know as to

23 what position he held in the camp?

24 A. When we arrived, the soldier who received us, he told us that he

25 was waiting for his commander. We did not know him when we came. And

Page 4401

1 then I learned that his nickname was Ckalja, and then I learned that his

2 name was Momo Gruban and he was a shift commander.

3 Q. Thank you. Now, about the interrogation, you said that you were

4 called out by a soldier, and that you were taken for interrogation. Where

5 were you taken to?

6 A. From Room 15 he took me to the administrative building to the

7 upper floor where the interrogations were taking place.

8 Q. Were there any other persons in the room?

9 A. As I entered when this soldier brought me in, there were two men

10 sitting. One was sort of shortish. They were both wearing camouflage

11 uniforms. I learned later on that they came from Banja Luka. The name of

12 one was Mirko. And one was taller, the other one was shortish but sort of

13 a stalwart man.

14 He asked to see my personal papers, and I had my ID, and then he

15 began to ask me about some peoples, about, for instance, either from

16 Prijedor, Kiki, what he was doing. Did I know anything about him? And I

17 said I minded my own business, and I didn't really know what other people

18 were doing because I had my own trucks to look after.

19 But the man who was in the police uniform who was standing next to

20 him, his name was Zeljko Prcac. He was wearing a police uniform.

21 THE INTERPRETER: And would the witness please slow down.

22 A. And the man from Banja Luka stood up and said, "Oh, fuck you, you

23 know nothing," he said.

24 MR. WAIDYARATNE:

25 Q. I'm sorry to interrupt you, could you speak slowly.

Page 4402

1 Could you say as to what happened thereafter?

2 A. Then Mirko stood up, and he was the one who said "fuck you" and

3 said that I didn't know anything, this guy, the guy in the police uniform,

4 active duty or not I don't know, and his name was Zeljko Prcac. Mirko

5 told me to do a square. I didn't know what it was, but I was hit, so I

6 fell down on my knees, and yes, indeed, there was something like a square

7 on the floor. And they both beat me. And the other one, the fat one who

8 was sitting next to him, he said, "Don't beat him because the man really

9 doesn't know what you're asking." And then they stopped beating me, but

10 Mirko said, "Mind that I don't, that I don't see you again because you'll

11 see what, what will be in store for you then."

12 Q. Did you sustain injuries due to the beating?

13 A. When I left that room, the door closed, and there were five

14 soldiers in army uniforms who ordered me to face the wall. I put my hands

15 against the wall, and they proceeded to beat me with rifle butts on the

16 back, and I was half dead. They pulled me out, and they went to pista,

17 and there I passed out.

18 Q. How long did you stay in the pista?

19 A. I stayed on pista for a month.

20 Q. While you were in the Omarska camp, did you get to know a person

21 by the name of Drago Prcac?

22 A. With me on the pista was a policeman, Meho Mahmutovic, a traffic

23 warden from Prijedor. I mean, I was in the trucking business, he was a

24 traffic warden, so we knew each other well. And a man, clean shaven, in a

25 police uniform, came up, and then this man told me, "Look, Drago Prcac is

Page 4403

1 here, too." So that I, yes, I did meet him in Omarska in the camp.

2 Q. Could you describe this person whom you referred to as Drago Prcac

3 when you saw him in the Omarska camp?

4 A. Sure. He was a clean-shaven man in a police uniform. He was

5 carrying some lists and walking towards that administrative building. He

6 was a -- sort of had a serious expression on his face. He was not fat.

7 Q. Did you see him close by?

8 A. Yes, because he would be there. He walked up and down. He spoke

9 to different policemen because there were a number of them, Zijad and

10 others and inspectors. And they communicated because they were with me on

11 the pista, and he would be passing by and talk to them.

12 Q. Did you get to know as to what position or what authority he had

13 in the camp?

14 A. We learnt that he was a Deputy Commander of the Omarska camp, that

15 he was second in command after Commander Kvocka.

16 Q. You said after Kvocka. What did you exactly mean by that?

17 A. When we arrived, that is what we heard from people who were

18 already there, that the camp commander was Kvocka, and we used to see him

19 there. He would be around.

20 Q. And was there a time that you didn't see Kvocka?

21 A. Yes. After a while, Kvocka stopped turning up where we were.

22 Q. Witness AN, speaking about the person Drago Prcac, did you see him

23 call out any persons while you were detained in the camp?

24 A. Yes. It was in late July in the evening, sometime around 8.00 I

25 went to the WC, and the door of the administrative building opened, and a

Page 4404

1 man entered. He had a coat over his arm and a list in his hands. And as

2 I stood there, he called out the name Esad Sadikovic. And after a while

3 Sadikovic came out of his room, came to Drago, and he just told him to go

4 to a friend because they were sleeping on the other side, and it was to my

5 brother. And he gave me some cigarettes, and so I went to -- Drago

6 came -- and he came and faced Drago, and Drago saw him there, and ever

7 since Esad has been missing.

8 Q. Now, you said a person with a coat in his hand and a list came up

9 and referred to another person -- and referred to him as Drago.

10 A. It's a light coat.

11 Q. Who was he? Who was he?

12 A. That was Drago Prcac, the man whom I met, because Meho Mahmutovic

13 had told me his name on the pista.

14 Q. Now, you spoke about this person Esad Sadikovic. How well did you

15 know him? Who was he?

16 A. He was a physician. He worked for the United Nations. He came

17 from Prijedor, and we were friends. We would walk by or would have a

18 drink together. We were quite close.

19 Q. Before this, did you see Esad Sadikovic in the camp?

20 A. Yes. As he was in the camp with us, he slept for a while in some

21 rooms and later on he joined us, and he was with us in Omarska all the

22 time.

23 Q. Which ethnicity did he belong to?

24 A. Esad was a Muslim.

25 Q. During your detention, Witness AN, in the Omarska camp, did you

Page 4405

1 come to know a person by the name of Krkan?

2 A. Yes, indeed.

3 Q. Who was he in the camp?

4 A. Krkan was the commander of a shift in the camp.

5 Q. Why do you say that he was a commander of a shift in the camp?

6 A. Well, every morning around 7.00 a bus would bring new guards, and

7 there where they had some taps where they wash hands and so on so forth,

8 that is where shifts took turns. And he was addressed by soldiers, by

9 guards who took us to the toilet to wash and so on so forth, but he was

10 not there. He would immediately go into the administrative building

11 because he was the commander of those men of his.

12 Q. Did you know him before you came to the camp? Had you seen him

13 before you came to the camp?

14 A. Yes. Perhaps two days before the war, I was with Fikret Sarajlic,

15 a policeman from Prijedor. We were at the police station in Prijedor, and

16 a man, quite heavy, whom I didn't know, quite heavily built, whom I didn't

17 know, turned up. And the man I was with addressed him as, "Hello, Radic,"

18 and they talked about something. And then after a while, or rather, when

19 I arrived in Omarska, I saw that that was Radic whom I had met earlier,

20 and that his nickname was Krkan.

21 Q. When you saw him in the camp, could you describe him, describe him

22 as to how he looked and as to what he was dressed in?

23 A. Sure. He was in a police uniform, rather short, but with a big

24 paunch. He did not communicate much with detainees. He frequently went

25 into the administrative building and just was moved around.

Page 4406

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Page 4407

1 Q. Where did you see him often while you were in the camp?

2 A. Yeah, sure. He was in -- you could see him often in Omarska, and

3 I spent 55 days there.

4 Q. Where did you see him? Any specific place often?

5 A. Well, he would be walking up and down. He would be passing by

6 because he went to the administrative building. We could see him walk up

7 the stairs because the staircase was in glass, with glass walls, and we

8 could see him climb the stairs to the rooms where interrogators were.

9 Q. Did you know a person by the name of Muharem Murselovic?

10 A. Yes, I did know the person called that. He had a restaurant in

11 Prijedor.

12 Q. To which ethnicity did he belong to?

13 A. Muharem was Albanian.

14 Q. Was he detained with you?

15 A. Yes, he was detained with us in Omarska.

16 Q. Did you see him being beaten?

17 A. Yes, one day a commander, I know his name was Zlaja, he came to

18 visit the camp. And that day when we went for lunch and we had to run,

19 and as we came out of that room where we had our meal, they had spilt some

20 beans, and it was very slippery. And of course, if you fell, you knew

21 what was in store for you. And Muharem, he was of some advanced age, and

22 he was running, and he slipped and fell, and as he fell, the guards beat

23 him. And at the entrance to the staircase where Krkan, Mijo Milic,

24 Zeljaja, and some other inspectors, they were all standing there and

25 laughing at what was happening to us.

Page 4408

1 Q. Did any of these persons, especially Krkan, intervene to stop

2 these guards, how they were conducting themselves?

3 A. No, they were upstairs. They merely laughed at us and what the

4 guards were doing to us. Nobody even tried to do anything. But nearby

5 was a man who worked at the radio station, and he went up to Murselovic

6 and said, "Oh, look, how does anyone dare beat you," and pretended to be

7 surprised.

8 Q. Did you get to know that any of these guards, whether they were

9 punished for these abuses?

10 A. Guards were not punished there. They took gold from us, money,

11 watches, beat us. Nobody ever tried to stop them, perhaps merely

12 encouraged them.

13 Q. Witness AN, during your detention in the pista, did you see a

14 person by the name of Sifet Ramadanovic?

15 A. Yes, a man in his 70s was with us. He had a restaurant in

16 Prijedor. He was of Albanian ethnicity. He used to have his coffee shop,

17 his restaurant, which was called Rudar.

18 Q. Did you see him being beaten or physically mistreated while he was

19 in the camp.

20 A. Yes. After he was interrogated and brought back, there were

21 guards waiting for him at the entrance, and they continued to beat him.

22 And he was begging them, "Children, I've got no money. I had nothing to

23 do with politics," and they beat him nevertheless. And that man, in his

24 70s, just stayed there and remained lying there. And the guards said that

25 two men should come and take him out onto the pista, and two men did that.

Page 4409

1 Q. Did you -- were you able to recognise any of these guards?

2 A. No, I did not. I did not recognise them. We were not allowed to

3 really look.

4 Q. Did you get to know later as to what happened to Safet

5 Ramadanovic?

6 A. Safet Ramadanovic, nicknamed Cifut, three days later Esad Sehic

7 took him out because he died as a result of the beating.

8 Q. How did you get to know? Did you see him die?

9 A. I did not see him dead. It was Esad Sehic, who was taking care of

10 him, told us Safet died, and Esad took him out near the "white house" on

11 the lawn there.

12 Q. You got to know about this after three days?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. When were you released from the Omarska camp?

15 A. I was released on the 6th of August, between 3.00 and 5.00 in the

16 afternoon. We were put on buses and were taken in a direction that we did

17 not know, but sometime later we learnt that we were going to Manjaca.

18 Q. How long did you stay in Manjaca?

19 A. One hundred days exactly.

20 Q. Is it correct if I say that you were released from Manjaca on the

21 14th of November, 1992?

22 A. Yes, that is correct, on the 14th of November.

23 Q. Did you leave Bosnia thereafter, and when was it?

24 A. I left Bosnia on the 14th of November from Manjaca, and then we

25 went to the collecting centre in Karlovac.

Page 4410

1 Q. What did you do with your house and property?

2 A. After I went to Omarska, when I was detained in Keraterm,

3 policemen came, at least men in a police uniform. They drove my truck

4 away. And when I left -- and when I was in the camp, they drove out my

5 wife and children from their house, but my wife obtained a paper and it

6 said that it had all been requisitioned for the Serb Republic.

7 Q. Witness AN, coming to the conclusion of your testimony, I would

8 ask you whether you would be able to identify certain people whom you

9 referred to in your testimony. It's almost nine years after these

10 incidents. Are you in a position to identify the person whom you referred

11 to as Zoran Zigic, if he is present in the courthouse today?

12 A. I'll do my best, even though a lot of time has passed by.

13 Q. Please look around the courtroom and see whether you could see

14 him. If you are unable to see from here, you may even, with the

15 permission of the Court, move forward. You may even get up.

16 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 A. I think it is this gentleman sitting here. That's what I think.

18 Q. Are you able to describe what he is wearing, the colour of the

19 suit?

20 A. A blue suit and a tie in several colours, and there is a pin on

21 the tie.

22 Q. Could you exactly say where he is seated? You see two rows.

23 A. The first row, here, in the first row.

24 Q. Which place?

25 A. In the middle.

Page 4411

1 Q. From the policeman, could you say exactly which place?

2 A. Next to the policeman. The policeman, the door, and the

3 policeman, which is the first nearest to the door, and then the man

4 sitting next to him.

5 MR. WAIDYARATNE: May it be recorded that the witness has

6 positively identified the accused Zoran Zigic. Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. Now, Witness, you referred to a person by the name of Krkan.

8 A. I did.

9 Q. Are you in a position to identify him today if you see him again?

10 A. Yes. That's the man sitting there behind the policeman, also a

11 blue suit and a dotted tie, in the back row.

12 Q. From the direction that you are looking, you see a door, and could

13 you say which seat he is sitting now?

14 A. The door, the policeman, and then Krkan, in that order.

15 MR. WAIDYARATNE: May it be recorded, Your Honour, that the

16 witness has correctly identified the accused Krkan. May I also request

17 the permission of the Court for the accused to keep their heads up,

18 especially when these witnesses make an attempt to identify them. Thank

19 you, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I must ask: When

21 the -- during the identification, can you please remove also the

22 headsets. That is, if the Prosecutor requests identification, will the

23 defendants please remove the headsets.

24 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Q. Witness, you, in your testimony, referred to a person by the name

Page 4412

1 of Drago Prcac.

2 A. I did.

3 Q. Over nine years have passed. Are you in a position to identify

4 him today if you see him again?

5 A. I don't see him today. He was a man of a middle age at that

6 time. Now he must be quite an elderly man, and I don't see one that would

7 look that old here.

8 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. Witness, concluding the examination, could you state whether you

10 suffered any physical or psychological setbacks due to the confinement in

11 the camps Keraterm, Omarska, and Manjaca?

12 A. Yes. They killed my three cousins and a close relative. All my

13 property has been seized. They did everything to me in Keraterm and

14 Omarska. Going to Omarska was a different matter [as interpreted]. The

15 conduct there was -- one could call humane.

16 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour. That concludes the

17 examination-in-chief.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Waidyaratne, and

19 I think this is a convenient time to make a break, so that we shall now

20 adjourn for half an hour and then return. However, before that I should

21 like to ask the usher to lower the blinds, to bring down the blinds, and

22 help the witness out before us.

23 [The witness stands down]

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Keegan.

25 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour. The issue arose yesterday during

Page 4413

1 some of the in-court identifications, and we submit that some of the

2 problems have arisen today. It's clear that many of these witnesses only

3 saw the accused in the camp for the first time. Nine years have passed.

4 Conditions are difficult enough. Despite the instructions from the Judge,

5 some of the accused continue to keep their headphones on. And in

6 addition, Mr. Prcac has been engaging in a pattern of keeping his head

7 down throughout all examinations, wearing his glasses, and did not look up

8 even during the person's attempt to identify him.

9 We would like a standing order -- we didn't raise it, of course,

10 in front of the witness, because it would have been irrelevant at that

11 point, but we would like a standing order given that when it comes to

12 in-court identifications, all of the accused will look up so that the

13 witnesses have an adequate opportunity to actually see their faces and to

14 remove eyeglasses if they're wearing them at the time.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Simic.

16 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I really don't want

17 to start an argument now, but I refuse to accept that the accused was

18 trying to conceal his face, and nobody ever raised this matter before,

19 that they had to remove their earphones and look up. I mean, the

20 defendants are doing whatever they are doing, taking notes, writing, or

21 something. So perhaps we can discuss this matter whether they should look

22 up and remove the headsets, so on and so forth. But so far nobody has

23 ever mentioned it. There hasn't been such a rule. The reason for failure

24 to make an identification, I don't know whether that is it, but it was

25 never mentioned before.

Page 4414

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think we are all professionals

2 here and we are aware of the risks that this type of procedure involves.

3 It is always a little difficult to proceed in this manner. We have to

4 bear in mind the circumstances. Such a problem does not arise when we

5 have only one accused. We have five accused in this case and there is

6 always a margin of error involved in the procedure. However, certain

7 conditions should be created and respected throughout the procedure.

8 I agree with what Mr. Jovan Simic has said. There should be a

9 standard, a criterion, that needs to be respected. If, for example, the

10 witness has seen the accused with glasses, then maybe the fact that the

11 accused is wearing glasses now, it is important, but that doesn't need to

12 be the significant detail.

13 So I should like to appeal to the accused and to ask them to

14 comply with these instructions and to take off their earphones and

15 glasses. Maybe there are -- there should be another procedure as well.

16 Maybe we should ask the accused to stand up, because it is sometimes easy

17 to hide behind a desk.

18 I will appreciate your cooperation in this case. I know it is

19 quite difficult for you, but I should like to ask you to take off your

20 headphones in cases of identification and also to lift your heads, to look

21 up during that procedure. I don't know if it would be asking too much if

22 we also request of you that you stand up during the identification

23 procedure, but we will agree on that later on.

24 It seems that Mr. Fila wants to say something. Mr. Fila.

25 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Prosecutor always

Page 4415

1 asks the witness whether he can recognise the accused, for example, Krkan,

2 here in the courtroom, and then the witness starts looking at all of us.

3 If you should make five people stand up, then the number of potential

4 people recognised is smaller. So the same thing happens if they take off

5 their headphones. Well, that is perhaps understandable, but I don't think

6 that it is necessary for them to stand up. But I also think that it would

7 be asking too much of the accused to look up all the time and to face the

8 witness all the time. Thank you.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Stojanovic.

10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your permission, Your

11 Honour. My proposal for an accused to stand up was once rejected.

12 Nevertheless, my position has remained the same. I think that the height

13 is one of the crucial elements of identification. So I think that the

14 Chamber should be consistent with its previous decisions, and I should

15 like you to take note of my initial proposal, which was rejected. Thank

16 you.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I don't know if we have an order

18 of speakers. Mr. O'Sullivan was the first one to rise. Mr. O'Sullivan.

19 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Thank you, Your Honour. Very briefly, we would

20 object to any procedure according to which the five accused are made to

21 single themselves out from other people in the courtroom by standing or

22 removing their headsets. We say that that is prejudicial and unfair.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. I also thought about that,

24 but of course it depends on the way the issue is brought. If you ask, for

25 example, if you -- "Do you see this person in this courtroom," if we ask

Page 4416

1 of the relevant person to stand up, then the witness will see immediately

2 who the person in question is. If, however, the witness first identifies

3 where the person is sitting and if he identifies the person, then later on

4 maybe it will be helpful. It really depends on the way the question is

5 asked of the witness.

6 I agree with you that if someone asks, "Do you see that person in

7 the courtroom," and if that person stands up, of course this is more than

8 leading. But if the person -- if the witness has said, "Yes, I can see

9 the accused," and if he points out to the accused, at that point the

10 accused can perhaps stand up for additional information.

11 I think we should all think about the procedure. I know that you

12 are all aware of the complex character of the issue of identification.

13 There can always be certain prejudice that can be at play in the process

14 of the identification. We are aware of the difficulty of this procedure,

15 and that is why we have to adopt these -- we have to adopt a procedure in

16 a very careful manner.

17 Mr. Simic.

18 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will be very

19 brief. I fully agree with my colleague, Mr. O'Sullivan. I would only

20 like to add one sentence. All these people, all these witnesses, saw

21 these individuals at one particular point in time, when they were passing

22 by, carrying some papers, and I think it is natural for them to identify

23 them in a normal situation. If they all start looking up towards the

24 witness, it will be very difficult. We have to bear in mind the realistic

25 circumstances in which the accused were seen by the witnesses. So if now

Page 4417

1 we have witnesses looking at them in a normal, life-like situation, then I

2 think it is the best way for them to identify the accused.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila.

4 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I fully agree with the following: Once

5 the identification is made, then the person in question can stand up so he

6 can be looked at once again. So I do agree with your proposal. The

7 witness has recognised Krkan with the headphones or without them, so that

8 was apparently not a problem for the witness. And I don't think that

9 Krkan was looking at him all the time. So if we have a recognition, then

10 the person is recognised. But you have to look at things in a different

11 manner. He said that he had seen Prcac on two occasions, one when he

12 arrived there and then later on, but he did not see him before.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Keegan, only to wind

14 up. Mr. Keegan, you have something to add.

15 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour. I would agree with, in fact, a

16 number of those comments, and of course it all is relative to the

17 frequency of exposure. For example, yesterday I wasn't even going to ask

18 for an identification from a witness who said he knew the person for a

19 period of years. In many systems it wouldn't be necessary to do an

20 in-court identification at that point. In this particular -- this last

21 instance, the part that was troubling to me, because I noticed it

22 yesterday as well --

23 THE INTERPRETER: Would you please slow down.

24 MR. KEEGAN: I'm sorry. If the witness only knew the person --

25 only saw them on a couple of occasions, then they do need at least the

Page 4418

1 opportunity to be able to look at the person's face. If the accused is

2 keeping his face down pointed at a desk behind which he is seated the

3 whole time, it is impossible for the person to get a good look.

4 I dared not, of course, in the middle of the identification stand

5 up and address that point, because obviously then it raises questions of

6 the validity, but I think it is a relevant point. I think also we have to

7 look at the nature of these cases. This is not a bank robbery where we're

8 pulling somebody from the street who only saw the bank robber run out.

9 This is not a whodunnit.

10 As the Defence have indicated, these men all admit to being in the

11 camp. They are the only ones surrounded by armed guards in this

12 courtroom. So it's not really the case, when we say to the witnesses,

13 "Look around the courtroom," they're actually looking at the lawyers or

14 at the Judges or at this side of the courtroom and in an attempt to see if

15 they see the accused. It's fairly obvious where the people who are

16 charged are sitting.

17 I think some practicality has to be entered into here. This is

18 nine years after the fact. I think it's only reasonable that the

19 witnesses have a fair opportunity to make an identification. It's obvious

20 that these are people who, when they have concerns about their

21 identification, make it known. So I think it is reasonable to give some

22 assistance to the witnesses, in a way that wouldn't overly prejudice the

23 accused. But I don't think having the accused, when it's clear we're

24 saying, "Can you identify someone," all look at the witness and take off

25 glasses, because there's been no evidence that they wore glasses at that

Page 4419

1 time. At least give the witnesses a fair chance.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I hope that we will be able to

3 think about it in a proper way. I think we should finish this discussion

4 now. There are lots of problems involving the space and the communication

5 in this space. This type of communication is more powerful than the

6 verbal communication. There are things that should be left spontaneous,

7 and we should observe that spontaneity. And we should not artificially

8 create conditions so that we can have a result, because we then risk

9 leading the witness to that conclusion. However, a proper procedure

10 should be established and we will have to take care of that. And we are

11 here to observe things, and that includes also all kinds of non-verbal

12 communication, which is, as I said, more powerful sometimes than the

13 verbal communication. I think we have to have a break now, a half-hour

14 break. But let me also tell you that situations differ one from the

15 other; however, a unique procedure, as regards principles is concerned,

16 should be established.

17 Half-an-hour break.

18 --- Recess taken at 11.22 a.m.

19 --- On resuming at 12.00 p.m.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated.

21 Mr. Keegan.

22 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honours, I apologise for taking the floor

23 once again. I was advised as we went into recess that the next witness in

24 order -- I'm sorry, can we go into private session, please?

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, we are in private session

Page 4420

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Page 4432

1 (redacted)

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7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 [Open session]

12 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13 Q. And the persons who took you over from Bato Kovacevic, where did

14 they take you?

15 A. Bato left us at the police station in Prijedor. And the policeman

16 who was escorting the bus, he was in the police station. He escorted us,

17 took us to the bus, and drove with us to Keraterm and then to Omarska.

18 Q. And who took you over in Omarska?

19 A. In Omarska there were some guards. We talked to Delic, the man

20 who worked there. We saw him in the kitchen working and he told the

21 guards to take us to room 15 and to leave us alone, because he used to

22 come to play football in my neighbourhood community, so he knew us. And

23 he told them to take us to room 15.

24 Q. So you were immediately sent to room 15, escorted by guards, in

25 the presence of guards, and without anybody else around?

Page 4433

1 A. Yes, yes, quite. We were taken to room 15.

2 Q. Thank you. You told us also about how you were interrogated in

3 Omarska, and you said that one of the investigators ordered, in a rather

4 special way, those guards in the security to begin to beat you. Is that

5 correct?

6 A. Yes, it is. He ordered, a rather youngish man in a police

7 uniform, that I should go down into a square. I didn't really know what

8 he meant.

9 Q. Yes, yes. Very well. But it was his order?

10 A. Yes. His name was Mirko and he was quite tall.

11 Q. And at the end of your interrogation you testified that you were

12 then beaten again by the guards in the passageway.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Was it done at anybody's order or sign?

15 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you, because the door was closed. A

16 man who was in a police uniform, he was supposed to escort me, but he was

17 present there. And those guys who beat me, they were in military

18 uniforms, that is, ordinary military uniforms of the olive-grey colour.

19 Q. Those were soldiers, then?

20 A. Well, they were wearing army uniforms. Whether they were indeed

21 military or not, I wouldn't know, but they were wearing those uniforms.

22 Q. Was there anyone from the police present?

23 A. Well, there was this lad too, whose name was Zeljko Prcac, in a

24 police uniform.

25 Q. And he was the only one?

Page 4434

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You said also that you were taken to the pista and that you spent

3 there some time.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Who issued the order to take you to the pista rather than to room

6 15?

7 A. Well, that interrogator who said, "Take him out to the pista," and

8 I was on the pista throughout.

9 Q. So you spent some 30 days on the pista?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And you could see the guards?

12 A. Sure.

13 Q. And the guards were either the active- or reserve-duty police?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And among those guards of the active or reserve police force,

16 could you see them -- mobile phones or walkie-talkies or Motorolas or

17 something like that?

18 A. No, I did not see that.

19 Q. Did you see if Ckalja, whom you also mentioned, had a mobile or

20 something like that?

21 A. No, I did not see anything like it.

22 Q. Could we then agree that none of the security guards had any means

23 of communication?

24 A. No. I did not see it, nor could I testify that any of those

25 guards or their commanders had any kind of telephones during my stay in

Page 4435

1 Omarska.

2 Q. Thank you. In your testimony you said that some individuals had

3 told you that Mr. Kvocka was a commander, chief, or something like that.

4 A. Yes. When I came to the pista, because there I found some

5 neighbours and others, that is what I was told.

6 Q. Thank you. You also said that Kvocka was still in Manjaca for a

7 while after you had arrived there, and during that short period of time,

8 did you see him bring some parcels in?

9 A. After I arrived in Omarska -- after I arrived in Omarska,

10 Kvocka -- I wouldn't know his first name -- yes, quite true, he brought

11 in some parcels. He wore a camouflage uniform and it became him. He had

12 an automatic rifle. He arrived in a green Mercedes. It was his. And he

13 would open the boot and then call out Muslims and Croats. Yes, indeed, he

14 was bringing some parcels into Omarska.

15 Q. You spoke to the Prosecution's investigators earlier?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. I'm not going to show you this document because we know that you

18 made these statements, and that is not challenged. On that occasion, you

19 stated that he brought food to Braco Burazerovic, Ahmet Sadikovic, Azia

20 Maksuti, Ismet Ajkic, Bajram Zgoc, and many others.

21 A. Yes, true, but unfortunately these people are gone.

22 Q. In your statement you mentioned somebody called Zeljko Meakic. Do

23 you know that person?

24 A. Yes, I said that sitting on the pista with Meho Mahmutovic, the

25 police man from Prijedor who had also been detained as I was, that man

Page 4436

1 came up. I didn't know him, and then Meho said, "Oh, come, look, Drago is

2 here, too."

3 Q. I was asking you about Zeljko Meakic.

4 A. Oh, yes, Zeljko Meakic. He was also a member of the command or

5 something, something of sorts.

6 Q. But did you meet him when you were there?

7 A. No, I did not meet him personally. I had no contact with him. No

8 opportunity to.

9 Q. But did you learn who -- what he was. Did you see him there?

10 A. Yes, of course you saw him. He was around. I was told he was a

11 camp commander.

12 Q. Did you see him as soon as you arrived?

13 A. Well, perhaps not as soon, but after a short while. I could see

14 the man whom I knew from earlier because he was allegedly a policeman

15 before, and that his name was Zeljko Meakic. I was told that.

16 Q. And you were told he was the commander?

17 A. Yes, sir. That is what I was told.

18 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no further

19 questions.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, counsel. Now it is

21 Mr. Fila's turn, I believe, or Mr. Jovanovic.

22 Cross-examined by Mr. Jovanovic:

23 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness AN. My name is Zoran

24 Jovanovic. I'm a lawyer from Belgrade. Mr. Toma Fila and I represent the

25 accused Mladjo Radic, Krkan. I'm going to ask you several questions.

Page 4437

1 A. At your service.

2 Q. You described to us how at around 7.00 in the morning or around

3 7.00 in the morning in this part next to the administrative building where

4 those taps are how you could see the change of guards, and that that was

5 the time when you could see Krkan?

6 A. Yes, and in that time when his shift was on duty.

7 Q. Could you then tell us something more specific as to where you saw

8 him and when?

9 A. Well, in the morning, for instance, when the bus would bring them

10 in, those were usually guards from adjacent villages, so some would come

11 by bus or some by their own tractors, depending on who was taking over the

12 shift. But it was Krkan, there was also Krle, and Ckalja, too. And who

13 was turning the shift over to whom, and they would line up and do it, and

14 depending on which shift was there, they would then deploy those guards

15 who were guarding us next to the door.

16 Q. Yes, right. But you also said that you saw Krkan go to the

17 administrative building?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Is it up those stairs?

20 A. Yes, that staircase, and I slept next to the staircase next to the

21 pista. And they would -- yes, he would go up those stairs. We could see

22 him.

23 Q. Would he pause? Would he spend some time in this glassed-off

24 part, or did you see him there?

25 A. The day Muharem Murselovic was beaten, that day he was standing

Page 4438

1 there publicly, and I could see him with my own eyes. He stood on those

2 stairs watching what was going on.

3 Q. You mean that part which is in glass?

4 A. Yes, yes.

5 Q. And will you then explain to me where is the passageway where it

6 happened when Murselovic was beaten?

7 A. Murselovic was beaten at the exit because he was running and he

8 fell here at the beginning of the pista as you come out from the hall when

9 you come down from interrogation, Murselovic fell here. And Zeljko and

10 them were here at the exit, and that is where they were beating them, and

11 there were more interrogators there, and they watched through the glass

12 what was going on.

13 Q. And who was there next to Krkan? Who else was there?

14 A. Ranko Mijic, inspector; Bijelic, I don't know his first name, and

15 he's a teacher; Lakic, inspector; and there were others, I think Bobas.

16 But those I knew.

17 Q. And where were you?

18 A. I was on the pista.

19 Q. And did you have any part in that incident where Mr. Murselovic

20 was beaten?

21 A. We could already come out. We were all beaten that date, all of

22 us, because the policemen were lined up on two sides, and they beat us all

23 as we were coming back from lunch.

24 Q. You said that something had been poured out or something was

25 spilt?

Page 4439

1 A. Well, here there was a small curve, there was a small corner as we

2 come out. Here you go up the stairs to the upper floor, or as you are

3 about to reach the pista there was a small curve, and it was spilled

4 there, right there in the passage way next to the exit.

5 Q. So you saw those men standing also?

6 A. Yes, upstairs.

7 Q. I see, upstairs. And you were already outside?

8 A. Yes, as we were returning from lunch because we were on the

9 pista. Those men were standing upstairs, and I was downstairs, and I

10 could see Murselovic and the commander, and I didn't know him or those

11 others who knew him. They said he was a commander, an active, active-duty

12 military, but that was the man whom I didn't know.

13 Q. Do you know the names of the inspectors?

14 A. Sure, I know them all.

15 Q. But do you know what was the relationship between the inspectors

16 and the guards, that is, the chain of command, who was superior to whom?

17 A. Oh, no, I don't know that. I don't know it. I know the

18 inspectors because they -- because I was born in Prijedor, and some of

19 them taught my children at school, and even privately I knew some of them

20 because I was born there and I'd lived there for 40 years.

21 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Jovanovic.

23 Mr. Stojanovic.

24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

25 Cross-examined by Mr. Stojanovic:

Page 4440

1 Q. [Interpretation] Witness AN, my name is Stojanovic, and I'm a

2 lawyer from Belgrade, and my colleague Tosic and I represent here

3 Mr. Zigic, and I will ask you some questions.

4 A. At your service.

5 Q. I have a few questions. I don't think there will be too many.

6 We heard that you had learned his name in the camp, but did you

7 know him before?

8 A. Yes, because I was in the trucking business, and I've been there

9 for many years, so Mr. Zigic -- and my colleagues were there, and they

10 told me about him. Mr. Zigic was a man who was proud to disrupting public

11 law and order. A couple of years before the war broke out, he had killed

12 a man. That is what our local paper said, and our Radio Prijedor also

13 said it, so that that wasn't an unfamiliar face.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness, excuse me. Will you

15 please answer directly a question that you are asked, and perhaps you

16 could adjust your headset better. Could you please look at me? You can

17 put your headset like this. I think you will feel more comfortable like

18 that.

19 A. Yes, like this.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very good.

21 I'm sorry. Yes, Mr. Stojanovic, go on.

22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. I didn't want to ask this, but I was now provoked. If you are

24 mentioning some incidents, were there any incidents against Serbs or the

25 Muslims?

Page 4441

1 A. No, no, I have nothing against Serbs.

2 Q. No, I'm talking about Mr. Zigic and the act that he committed. It

3 was against whom?

4 A. I don't know. You have to ask him. How can I know that?

5 Q. Right. You told me -- you told us that he was a taxi driver in

6 Prijedor. Would you know, what did his taxi car look like, what brand was

7 it?

8 A. I think it was PZ. I believe it was a PZ, and its colour, was I

9 think a raw coffee or something like that. I'm not quite sure, but it was

10 a PZ.

11 Q. Could you be more specific. Could you tell us when did he work as

12 a taxi driver?

13 A. Well, not to a month, but years -- well, it was before the war,

14 really. I wasn't really -- want to know that. I mean, he was a taxi

15 driver. For how long, I really don't know.

16 Q. But was he a driver right up to the war, I mean that year?

17 A. I really wouldn't be able to tell you. I know it was before the

18 war, but for how many years and until when, I really wouldn't be able to

19 tell you.

20 Q. But would you then -- when was it that you saw him last before the

21 war?

22 A. No, I wouldn't be able to tell you when it was that I saw him

23 last. The last time I really saw him was at Keraterm. That is when I saw

24 him last.

25 Q. You've already described in part Mr. Zigic's uniform, but could

Page 4442

1 you tell us something more about his appearance. What did he look like?

2 A. Well, he was rather thin, wore a uniform, an olive-gray cap. He

3 was drunk quite often.

4 Q. Could you tell us what colour was his hair?

5 A. Well, he always wore a red cap. I don't really know. When he

6 came to Keraterm, he also had a red beret on.

7 Q. But did you perhaps notice if he wore any earrings?

8 A. Oh, I didn't see that. Come on.

9 Q. And on his face, perhaps, did you notice any scars or something?

10 A. Yes. He did have a scar here, here on the chin.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Stojanovic, perhaps these

12 gestures should be described. It is important, I guess, for you where was

13 that scar that the witness saw. The witness made a gesture, made -- to

14 show it, but I think you will need it described.

15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Yes, you

16 have helped me. Thank you very much.

17 Q. So, my question was, where was that scar?

18 A. Somewhere here.

19 Q. Yes, will you describe it verbally because we need it for the

20 transcript. Where was it on the chin?

21 A. Yes, on the chin below -- right beneath the lip on the chin.

22 Q. Thank you. Did you see him bandaged, any bandages?

23 A. No, when he came to Keraterm, he did not have any bandages, no

24 part of his body was bandaged, at least I did not see any bandages on him.

25 Q. And this scar on his chin, were you aware of that scar before the

Page 4443

1 war?

2 A. No, I wasn't really interested in the man, and I never took his

3 taxi, so I just didn't notice that.

4 Q. You described an incident to us involving somebody called Zeric.

5 Now, in relation to that incident, did you make a statement to the

6 Prosecution and in writing sometime in early 1999?

7 A. Yes, yes, I did.

8 Q. And you signed this statement?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And that statement says, and you will tell us whether this is true

11 or not, that Zigic beat Mr. Zeric with his hands and feet?

12 A. Yes, he did. This man, and he was quite young, he was sitting on

13 the concrete.

14 Q. Will you describe what you mean when you say he beat him with his

15 hands?

16 A. Well, the man was sitting down, that is, we were all sitting down,

17 and Zigic was pacing up and down, and he was furious. And he came across

18 him and he said, "Fuck you, you were selling bombs on the market," and he

19 kicked him here and with his hands here.

20 Q. No, but his hands is what I want to know. Both hands, was it with

21 his fists, or was it slaps in the face?

22 A. Well, fists.

23 Q. Or did he have, you know --

24 A. No, no, no. It was with his open hands. It was more like slaps

25 in the face.

Page 4444

1 Q. Then Sistek, you also mentioned him. That was on page 9 of your

2 statement of the same date, but in English version page 10. No, excuse

3 me. It says that Zigic began to beat Sistek with his hands. Could you

4 also describe it?

5 A. When Zigic called him out, or perhaps they knew each other from

6 before because he called him out and said, "Hey, cart driver," because the

7 man had horses and he drove a cart, and he called him out. I don't know

8 why.

9 Q. No, no, no. I'm referring to a beating.

10 A. Yes. Samir was quite a big man. He was quite bigger than Zigic.

11 Q. Yes, we heard it all, I'm sorry to interrupt you. But did you see

12 him beat him?

13 A. Yes, yes. And Zigic was really surprised that he could not bring

14 him down, but he was beating him with his hands.

15 Q. Was it again slaps, or with his fists?

16 A. Well, he was beating him with his hands. Come.

17 Q. You also mentioned an incident with somebody called Ivo Sikura?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And in your statement it says that you did not see that, that you

20 only heard it?

21 A. Yes, because it was happening behind the door.

22 Q. But did you see it?

23 A. No, I could not see it. But we could hear Ivo beg Zigic not to

24 beat him because he was an old man, and he had nothing to do with

25 politics. And Zigic says, "Don't you know what your son had been doing?"

Page 4445

1 Q. Yes, yes, we've already heard it all, but I just have one detail

2 perhaps for the transcript. How old was this Ivo Sikura?

3 A. Sikura was about 70. I think his credit said around 70, Around

4 70. Yes, he was around 70. I'm not a relative of his, so I wouldn't

5 really know.

6 Q. Did Zigic ever beat you?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Did Zigic ever beat your brothers?

9 A. No.

10 Q. How many of yours brothers were in Keraterm at the time?

11 A. Three of us, myself and my two brothers, and also my cousin, my

12 brother of the second blood.

13 Q. But did you see Zigic kill anyone ever?

14 A. No, not during my stay in Keraterm. I did not see him do that.

15 Q. In your written statement you said that during your stay, about 70

16 individuals were released after interrogation. Is that true?

17 A. Yes. They were people from my neighbourhood, community, and we

18 were all released. We were issued papers so that we could move around

19 freely.

20 Q. Two events are mentioned in the statement, yet were not addressed

21 today.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Stojanovic, if the witness

23 did not testify about them, I do not think that you can raise them because

24 the statement is not the evidence, as you well know. So you can

25 cross-examine the witness on the basis of his evidence and you can raise

Page 4446

1 matters from the statement only if they were touched upon in their

2 evidence here; otherwise, you may not ask any questions about this.

3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I ask questions

4 which are directly related to the things that my client is charged with

5 independently --

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But you -- I think there is

7 certainly a misunderstanding. The statement that you have is not the

8 evidence in Court. It is a technical matter. The only evidence is what

9 the witness says here, and the cross-examination is conducted on the basis

10 of what was said, perhaps with some additional information, but only if

11 the witness testified about this.

12 We discussed this matter a great deal, you will remember it, and

13 it was Mr. O'Sullivan who spoke on behalf of the Defence. What is

14 important is what the witness says here. All the rest is only a means to

15 arrive at something.

16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I ask questions

17 relating to events in Keraterm?

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may ask questions relative

19 to the indictment in cross-examination only insofar as they were covered

20 by the testimony of the witness. Ask the question and then we shall see.

21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will ask the

22 question. I should like to ask the Chamber to rule then upon this.

23 Q. During your stay in Keraterm, was a certain gentleman called Fajzo

24 Mujkanovic there?

25 A. Yes, yes. He was captured, and he was brought to join us.

Page 4447

1 Q. And certain a Duca Knezevic, did he look for that gentleman?

2 A. Yes, he did, and he found him at Keraterm.

3 Q. Could you also explain what happened between these two

4 individuals?

5 A. Fajzo was with us, and the man -- and Duca came. We didn't know

6 him, but he was already in the place, and he said, "I found you. Oh, fuck

7 you, you found --" he had killed, I don't know, his aunt or uncles or

8 something. And he hit him and put him down to the ground. And then he

9 said if he could prove that he had killed them, that he would then

10 slaughter his wife and his child, and that is that.

11 Q. You also said that you met (redacted)?

12 A. Yes, yes. Yes, yes, he was brought in front of the "white house,"

13 (redacted), yes.

14 Q. And on that occasion, did you also meet with that same gentleman

15 that we mentioned a while ago, Duca?

16 A. Yes. Yes, I think that that man was liquidated by Duca in all

17 likelihood.

18 Q. You mean he killed him?

19 A. I think he did.

20 Q. And how do you know?

21 A. Oh, come. We were on the pista, and the man was standing next to

22 the "white house," and was it a bullet, was it some wooden bat or

23 anything -- at any rate, his skull simply cracked, and that man is no

24 longer.

25 Q. Did you see that personally?

Page 4448

1 THE INTERPRETER: We could not hear the witnesses answer, we are

2 sorry.

3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. And do you know somebody called Senad Ferhatovic?

5 A. Senad Ferhatovic from Prijedor. Yes, that is a man who died in

6 Sweden.

7 Q. And stayed in Oklopcic?

8 A. Yes, teacher in Omarska.

9 Q. And Brkic?

10 A. Yes, he was a taxi driver in Prijedor, my neighbour.

11 Q. Were they together with you in one of the camps?

12 A. Abdulah was with me in Manjaca and in Omarska. And Zedin was in

13 Omarska. Ferhatovic was in Omarska with me.

14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I do not have any

15 further questions. Thank you.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

17 Mr. Stojanovic.

18 Yes, Mr. Waidyaratne, do you have any additional questions on

19 redirect?

20 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Yes, I have some questions that arose with the

21 cross-examination of Mr. Jovanovic.

22 Re-examined by Mr. Waidyaratne:

23 Q. Witness AN, you said that you saw Krkan in the morning, and also

24 mentioned two names, Ckalja and a person by the name of Krle. Did you

25 know who this person was? What was he in the camp?

Page 4449

1 A. You're asking me?

2 Q. Yes.

3 A. Yes, yes, I did. Krle, Ckalja, and Krkan were shift leaders.

4 Q. Did you see Krle often in the camp?

5 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Objection, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. O'Sullivan.

7 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Could I ask that the witness remove his

8 headphones during my submissions.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, of course.

10 Witness, could you please remove your headphones. But first tell

11 me: Do you understand English?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, then. Because

14 removing headphones in itself does not suffice. So could you please take

15 off your earphones.

16 Mr. O'Sullivan, let us hear you.

17 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honours, we object to this line of

18 questioning during re-examination. There were no questions put to this

19 witness during direct examination regarding Krle. On cross-examination,

20 in response to a question, the witness mentioned his name in connection to

21 being the shift commander.

22 In my respectful submission, re-examination is limited, and I cite

23 as authority a decision of this Tribunal. It's the case of the Prosecutor

24 versus Kupreskic, a decision on order of presentation of evidence of 21

25 January 1999, the Chamber of Cassese, May, and Mumba. That Chamber cited

Page 4450

1 and approved the following passage from Peter Murphy's book "A Practical

2 Approach to Evidence." Professor Murphy writes as follows regarding the

3 examination, and I quote:

4 "Very little need be said about re-examination. It is the process

5 whereby a party calling a witness may seek to explain or clarify any

6 points that arose in cross-examination and appear to be unfavourable to

7 his case. Re-examination is therefore possible only where there has been

8 cross-examination and is limited to matters raised in cross-examination.

9 It is not an opportunity to adduce further evidence in chief."

10 That, I submit, is good law and the law of this Tribunal in

11 regards to the scope of re-examination. As I've said, no questions in

12 regards to Krle during examination-in-chief. During cross-examination his

13 name was mentioned as being a shift commander. That is a clear answer to

14 a clear question. There is no ambiguity in that answer.

15 The Prosecution may not adduce further evidence in chief. In

16 fact, it had no evidence in chief in relation to this individual.

17 Certainly it cannot be said that what was elicited during

18 cross-examination was unfavourable to this witness or the Prosecution

19 case. Therefore, I submit that there's no basis to continue this line of

20 re-examination with this witness.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much for this

22 lecture, Mr. O'Sullivan.

23 Mr. Waidyaratne.

24 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Your Honour, the Prosecution would submit that

25 these questions would be limited to what transpired in cross-examination.

Page 4451

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Page 4452

1 It was put to the witness by that counsel a question with regard to the

2 shift commanders, and the name of this person transpired in that. I would

3 only restrict my questioning with regard to that.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Have you finished?

5 MR. WAIDYARATNE: And he was also cross-examined -- the witness

6 was also cross-examined to the ability to observe things by the Defence,

7 so that would be the area that I would be questioning.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Jovanovic. Do you have

9 a contribution to this discussion?

10 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would just like to follow up on

11 what my learned colleague has said. There were no questions during the

12 cross-examination about shift commanders. The question of Radic's defence

13 was what happened at a specific location near the administration building

14 at the water taps during the change of the shift. This can be seen

15 clearly in the transcript. That was not the objective of the question,

16 namely, who the shift commanders were, or anything similar. Thank you

17 very much.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. O'Sullivan, you wish to add

19 something?

20 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Briefly in response to my friend, the Prosecutor.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, briefly.

22 MR. O'SULLIVAN: I submit that he has failed to bring his

23 purported scope of re-examination within what the law of the Tribunal

24 states is the scope of re-examination, and therefore it should not be

25 allowed.

Page 4453

1 [Trial Chamber deliberates]

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] There is something I should like

3 to say at the beginning. We have really appreciated the lecture that

4 Mr. O'Sullivan gave us; however, one should bear in mind that perhaps the

5 quoted authority, if they knew -- if they were familiar with the system of

6 the Tribunal, they would think differently. As you all know, we have a

7 very special, particular system here, especially regarding the examination

8 of witnesses. Most of other systems are not applied here in the way they

9 are applied in other legal systems, in the Anglo-Saxon system in

10 particular.

11 I do not wish to engage in an academic discussion here, but I

12 simply want to say that whatever the contents of the objection, the

13 objection is sustained, and our ruling is that the question cannot be

14 asked.

15 You can proceed, Mr. O'Sullivan. I just wanted to add that

16 particular point, but I didn't wish to engage in an academic discussion.

17 Do you still wish to add something or do you have another objection to

18 make?

19 MR. O'SULLIVAN: No. My apologies if I was unclear to the

20 Chamber, but the quotation I read to you from Murphy's book was adopted

21 and followed by the Kupreskic court. That was the point. If I was

22 misunderstood on that regard, it was --

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Well, be that as it may, we

24 accept your objection. Thank you very much for this clarification. I

25 think it is possible to find in the case law of this Tribunal that this

Page 4454

1 Rule can be made flexible. But in the case in point, I think that the

2 Defence has -- is right, and the objection is sustained.

3 Mr. Waidyaratne, please proceed with your re-examination, but

4 please withdraw your questions concerning the accused Kos.

5 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour. May I ask the witness

6 to have his headphones on.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, of course.

8 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.

10 MR. WAIDYARATNE:

11 Q. Witness, you were questioned about the incident where you

12 testified before with regard to seeing the beating of Muharem Murselovic.

13 You said that they were upstairs and you all were downstairs.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, the people whom you referred to as "they," and were

16 upstairs --

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. -- how could you see them?

19 A. We were sitting on the pista and they were in the glassed-in area

20 on the stairway leading to the administration building where the

21 interrogations were taking place.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MR. WAIDYARATNE: That's all, Your Honour. Thank you.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

25 Mr. Waidyaratne. Judge Riad has the floor.

Page 4455

1 Questioned by the Court:

2 JUDGE RIAD: Witness AN, good morning. I have just one

3 clarification to ask you. You spoke of the beating of Safet Ramadanovic

4 and then three days later he died. If you can just clarify more, if you

5 know, how this beating took place and if the death was really a

6 consequence of this beating, if you are in a position to know that.

7 A. Safet Ramadanovic, nicknamed Cifut, upon the return from

8 interrogation, was met by guards at the entrance. He was an elderly man.

9 They were escorting him and they were asking money from him. They were

10 accusing him of having engaged in some politics. They were mistreating

11 him because he was an Albanian. And after the beating he died, so that

12 was the cause of his death.

13 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Judge

15 Riad. Madam Judge Wald has the floor.

16 JUDGE WALD: Witness, I just have one question and it deals with a

17 clarification about a matter you've already testified about, and that was

18 a situation where Drago Prcac called out for Esad Sadilovic. And I could

19 not understand from the English transcript -- I don't know whether it was

20 the translation or not -- exactly what happened after that, after he

21 called for Esad Sadikovic. So would you just go over that, what happened

22 after that, so I can understand.

23 A. When he was called out by Drago Prcac, he passed by him. Esad

24 passed by Drago and he went to the area where we were sleeping. He took

25 two cans of food containing some meat to my brother, and my brother gave

Page 4456

1 him cigarettes and Esad went back to Drago Prcac. He told us goodbye and

2 he went to the door. And he was walking in front of Drago and Drago

3 closed the door behind him, and Esad is missing.

4 JUDGE WALD: So if I understand your testimony, Drago called out

5 his name, then Esad went and got this food and got cigarettes, and then

6 the two of them left the room, and that's the last you know anything about

7 and you never heard anything later or saw anything -- or saw Esad again.

8 Did you ever hear from anyone else what happened to Esad after that?

9 A. Ever since that day, every trace of Esad is gone. No one ever

10 heard what happened to Esad after that. Mr. Prcac is the one who knows

11 what happened to him.

12 JUDGE WALD: Thank you.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Madam Judge

14 Wald.

15 Witness AN, this is the end of your testimony here. You have been

16 asked a number of questions. You have provided us with answers to those

17 questions. Thank you very much for having come here to testify. Please

18 do not move for a while. We have to lower down the blinds first and then

19 the usher will help you out of the courtroom

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 [The witness withdrew]

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. It was my mistake

23 when I gave the floor to Mr. Keegan. I thought we had already completed

24 the cross-examination of the previous witness.

25 Mr. Keegan, what's happening now?

Page 4457

1 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour. The -- perhaps we should go into

2 private session.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Let us go into private

4 session, please.

5 [Private session]

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4458

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 --- Recess taken at 1.25 p.m.

15 --- On resuming at 2.05 p.m.

16 [Open session]

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated.

18 [The witness entered court]

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Can you hear me, Witness?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Will you now read the solemn

22 declaration which the usher will give you.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

24 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

25 WITNESS: ABDULAH BRKIC

Page 4459

1 [Witness answered through interpreter]

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated.

3 A. Thank you.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Will you come closer to the

5 microphone, please. Are you all right?

6 A. Yes, thank you.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Now you will be

8 answering questions which Mr. Keegan, who is standing to the right, will

9 ask of you. Thank you for coming and for your courage that you have shown

10 by agreeing to come here and testify.

11 Examined by Mr. Keegan:

12 Q. Mr. Brkic, will you please state your full name for the record?

13 A. Abdulah Brkic.

14 Q. And how old are you, sir?

15 A. Forty-nine.

16 Q. Where were you born?

17 A. Bosanski Novi.

18 Q. And where did you grow up?

19 A. Prijedor.

20 Q. And what education qualifications did you obtain?

21 A. I completed the elementary school and a school for drivers.

22 Q. And what professions have you practiced?

23 A. I worked as a driver for AutoTransport Prijedor. I worked in

24 Zagreb for eight years as a driver, and about four years I spent driving a

25 taxi in Prijedor.

Page 4460

1 Q. And after your time as a taxi driver in Prijedor, where did you

2 work?

3 A. Then I worked for a private butcher, Mirsad Kugic. I worked for

4 him both as a driver and as a butcher.

5 Q. Sir, where did you live prior to the conflict?

6 A. I lived at Puharska which is on the outskirts of Prijedor.

7 Q. What was your last day of work in 1992, sir?

8 A. The last day was the 29th of May. It was a Friday, I think.

9 Q. Where did you stay that night, the 29th of May?

10 A. On the 29th of May, I spent the night at home; but in the morning,

11 I went into the town to Prijedor to a friend's, and that is where I spent

12 the next night of the 30th, on the JNA street.

13 Q. And why did you go to stay at your friend's house in the centre of

14 Prijedor town?

15 A. Well, I went there on my own initiative. I thought that in the

16 heart of the town it will be safer than at Puharska because in Puharska

17 there were about 7.000, 7.500 Muslims.

18 Q. And why were you concerned there was going to be a problem in

19 Puharska?

20 A. Well, I was worried because almost every day, either on the radio

21 or television, I watched this propaganda and the hounding of Muslims, and

22 I could hear that Muslims, the Green Berets, are rising against Serbs, and

23 that was the mood in the town, and I was afraid, simply.

24 Q. And what happened in the early morning hours of the 30th of May?

25 A. Early in the morning, it could have been around five, Radio

Page 4461

1 Prijedor -- my friend and I and our wives were listening to Radio

2 Prijedor, and it kept airing so-called Cetnik songs. And all of a sudden

3 the music stopped, and one could hear gunfire.

4 Q. What type of gunfire could you hear?

5 A. Well, fire from firearms. It was terrible. One could hear it all

6 over.

7 Q. About how long did the sounds of that firing go on?

8 A. Well, it went on for quite some time. I know that sometime around

9 ten or half past ten, the radio went back on air again, Radio Prijedor,

10 and the announcement was broadcast that that day they would -- Puharska

11 would be searched, and that everybody had to be at home, and if you were

12 absent, that the house would be broken and they would enter nevertheless

13 and search it.

14 Q. So what did you do after hearing that announcement?

15 A. I did nothing, but my wife went telephone and called the barracks

16 Zarko Zgonjanin, attorney in Prijedor, and the call was answered by a

17 captain whose name is Drnkic [phoen], and she asked him how could we get

18 to Puharska. She told him where we were at that particular moment, that

19 is, on the JNA street. And he told her to -- that we should come out and

20 take the JNA street towards the railway station, then to turn left to the

21 fly-over, and that the road to Puharska was free, that we could get there;

22 but before that, that we also had to put white armbands on.

23 Q. Did you follow those instructions?

24 A. We did.

25 Q. And you and your wife walked back to your house in Puharska?

Page 4462

1 A. Yes, my wife and my two children and myself.

2 Q. Did you pass through checkpoints on the way?

3 A. Yes. There was a checkpoint at the entrance to Puharska on the

4 bridge, and before that on a small fly-over, on a small bridge, there was

5 a tank. And when I reached the checkpoint, the soldier, I guess he

6 recognised me; I didn't recognise him. I have a nickname, Brta, and he

7 asked me, "Brta, where are you going?" And I told him I was going home

8 because I had to open the house, because that was the announcement.

9 Q. And did he let you pass?

10 A. He did.

11 Q. What happened when you returned home?

12 A. I came home. Then again Radio Prijedor issued another

13 notification saying those who were loyal to Serb authorities would have to

14 hang out white flags or something, in some conspicuous place on the window

15 or the gate or something, and my wife did so. And I went down where my

16 parents and my brother were.

17 Q. Did they live in houses that were next to yours?

18 A. No. Well, I lived some 800 metres -- perhaps a kilometre is the

19 distance between my house and theirs.

20 Q. And what happened while you were at your brother's house?

21 A. We were -- as we were sitting in the house, somebody banged on the

22 door, and my mother stood up and opened. And we could hear voices and

23 they said that all males should come out. My brother and I went out and

24 there were two soldiers in front of the door. One was a big man,

25 fair-haired, and he looked as if he had been under the influence; he could

Page 4463

1 barely stand. And he told us to put our arms like that, to bend our heads

2 and not to turn, and to move towards a crossroads, which is some 50 metres

3 from my parents' house, that there was a bus and that we should get onto

4 it.

5 MR. KEEGAN: For the record, Your Honour, the gesture that the

6 witness described and demonstrated was to clasp his hands behind his head.

7 Q. Now, when you came out of the house, you mentioned that there were

8 two soldiers there. Did you see any other soldiers in the area who were

9 assisting these two or covering them with weapons?

10 A. No.

11 Q. And after these two soldiers gave you the instruction to go to the

12 bus, did they escort you to the bus?

13 A. No.

14 Q. As you walked towards the bus, did you see any other soldiers near

15 the other houses?

16 A. No, I did not see.

17 Q. Were there other soldiers near the bus?

18 A. Yes. In the front part of the bus, at the front door, there was a

19 soldier, to the right, say, and there was another one standing to

20 the -- on the left-hand side.

21 Q. And what were those soldiers doing at the bus?

22 A. To the entrance into the bus, this soldier that led me onto the

23 bus took off my watch, the bracelet I had on my hand, took all the money

24 from my pockets, and slapped me in the face and said, "Be off with you

25 into that corner down there."

Page 4464

1 Q. Before you actually got onto the bus, as you were approaching the

2 bus, I'm interested in what the soldiers were doing, how they were

3 acting.

4 A. He was standing at the front door of the bus.

5 Q. Were others, other individuals in your area, arrested at the same

6 time as you?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Approximately how many, if you know?

9 A. Well, it lasted for about five or ten minutes and then the bus was

10 full.

11 Q. Now, the soldiers that you've talked about, how were they

12 dressed? What were they wearing?

13 A. This soldier who was letting us into the bus, he was wearing the

14 summer olive-grey uniform of the former Yugoslav People's Army.

15 Q. And what about the others, the one that actually came to the

16 house?

17 A. Likewise, they were wearing the same kind of uniform.

18 Q. Now, the men who were arrested with you and put on a bus, did you

19 recognise those men, most of them?

20 A. Yes, because they were all my neighbours from Puharska.

21 Q. Did you know their ethnicity?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What was that?

24 A. Muslims.

25 Q. Is that also your ethnicity?

Page 4465

1 A. It is.

2 Q. Did you know any of the soldiers who arrested you that day? Did

3 you recognise any of them?

4 A. I did not recognise the one who arrested me, but from the bus I

5 recognised a colleague who used to be a taxi driver at the same time when

6 I was, and I believe his name was Radanovic. His nickname was Ciga. And

7 later on, from the neighbours, I learnt that practically he went around

8 all the buses in Puharska looking for me. I don't know why he was looking

9 for me. We were on quite good terms.

10 Q. Do you know what his ethnicity was?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And what was that?

13 A. He was a Serb.

14 Q. Now, the men who were arrested with you and put on the bus, were

15 any of those men wearing any type of uniform?

16 A. No.

17 Q. And once the bus was full, where were you taken?

18 A. They took us to the barracks, Zarko Zgonjanin and Urije, the

19 driver and the escort got off, and we were -- we went on sitting in the

20 bus. And then I saw, next to the building, next to the wall of the

21 barracks, there could have been some 20 people perhaps, civilians, and two

22 soldiers were walking past and they were trying to pull off the wall

23 posters saying "for a sovereign Bosnia-Herzegovina," and they were making

24 those people chew that poster paper, to eat it.

25 Q. Now, the people who the soldiers were forcing to eat the pieces of

Page 4466

1 the poster, did you recognise any of those individuals?

2 A. No.

3 Q. At any time did you get off the bus at the barracks?

4 A. No.

5 Q. And from the barracks, where were you taken then?

6 A. From the barracks they took us to Keraterm.

7 Q. Before taking you to Keraterm, did the bus go anywhere else first?

8 A. No. From the barracks to Keraterm. He didn't go anywhere else.

9 Q. And what road did you follow to get to Keraterm?

10 A. We left Urije, towards the railway station. Then naturally there

11 is the intersection from which the road goes off to Banja Luka, and we

12 went to -- we got then to Keraterm. We stayed there for about 20

13 minutes. Then they came back, switched on the engine, and we took the new

14 road in the -- towards Banja Luka and we arrived in Omarska.

15 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, if I could, I was going to try and clear

16 up this one section. It will take about five minutes and then that would

17 be an appropriate moment for a break.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. I was about to tell you,

19 but remember that we still have our ruling, but you will tell us when it

20 will be convenient to break.

21 MR. KEEGAN: In that event, this is a good place to break.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. I think it is a good

23 moment to break, because we still have our decision.

24 Witness Brkic, we are sorry to have to interrupt you, but we

25 naturally adjourn at half past 2.00 and we still have some work before us,

Page 4467

1 so that you will have to come back tomorrow to continue giving your

2 evidence. I shall now ask the usher to help you out.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 [The witness stood down]

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] As you know, we had to do some

6 additional work in the meantime, and that was the reason why we came a

7 little late after the break. Our apologies, but I hope that you

8 understand that we had to render our decision rather urgently.

9 So the Chamber will now render its ruling pursuant to the motions

10 of the Prosecutor for modification of the list of witnesses and for the

11 application of protective measures.

12 On the 21st of August, 2000, the Prosecutor submitted in the

13 following order a motion for protective measures in respect of Witnesses

14 AO, AP, AQ, AR, and AS, and a motion to change the list of witnesses in

15 respect of 12 witnesses.

16 On the 25th of August, Defence counsel for the accused Kos

17 expressed its opposition to the motion in respect of nine witnesses. On

18 the 28th of August, 2000, the Prosecutor filed a third motion. This time,

19 a motion for protective measures in respect of Witness AT.

20 On the 29th of August, yesterday, the Chamber spent a long time

21 hearing the arguments of the parties, and especially the arguments of the

22 Defence for the accused Kos. The Prosecutor upheld its motions invoking

23 in particular Rule 66 and 73 bis of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence.

24 Defence counsel, all of them, expressed its opposition to the motions,

25 invoking in particular the rights of the accused to a fair and expeditious

Page 4468

1 trial, and to their right to prepare in an adequate manner their defence

2 pursuant to the provisions of Articles 20 and 21 of the Statute.

3 At the conclusion of the Status Conference, the Chamber proposed

4 to the parties to meet once again and to explore the possibility,

5 following the arguments exchanged during the Status Conference, to find an

6 agreement. Several minutes after the end of the Status Conference, the

7 Chamber was advised that no agreement was possible; however, this morning

8 the parties have notified the Chamber that they managed to find an

9 agreement as regards the appearance of Witness F.

10 It is therefore against that procedural background that the

11 Chamber is making its decision. However, insofar as there is a need to

12 mention names of certain individuals, certain witnesses, I should like to

13 ask that we move into private session for a while.

14 [Private session]

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4469

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Page 4470

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2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 [Open session]

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] It is appropriate to emphasise

9 that actually in respect of ten witnesses, the Prosecutor stated in its

10 motion that he still has to fulfil its obligations, disclosure

11 obligations, at least seven days before the appearance of the relevant

12 witness. In other words, the Chamber understands that the Prosecutor has

13 not to this date completed, or rather, fulfilled its obligations according

14 to the provisions of the Rule 66 of Rules of Procedure and Evidence.

15 Having said that, it follows from the explanations given by the

16 Prosecutor that certain witnesses have only recently agreed to testify and

17 to be called to the Tribunal. On the other hand, according to the

18 Prosecutor, the new witnesses are well placed to bring certain

19 clarification to the Chamber as regards the charges against the accused

20 and the exact role of one or several of them, without having to testify

21 about the actual crimes or elements of crimes with which the Chamber has

22 not yet been made familiar.

23 The Chamber is of the opinion that in view of such circumstances,

24 while expressing its concern to have to intervene in such a sensible --

25 such an important matter at this stage of the procedure, and also having

Page 4471

1 to express its regret that the Prosecutor only recently announced the

2 appearance of certain new witnesses, and we have to express our regret at

3 the fact that the Prosecutor has already called witnesses to the Tribunal

4 without waiting for the response of the Chamber, it seems a priori

5 important that a motion of the Prosecutor should be granted.

6 It is in reality and effectively in the interests of justice that

7 we should all make an effort and try to find together evidence which is

8 the best possible evidence, although on this particular issue, the Chamber

9 can only place its trust to the assessment made by the Prosecutor.

10 However, the Chamber has to make sure that this will not cause any

11 prejudice to the full exercise of the rights of the accused. In that

12 respect, the Chamber believes that it is essential that the Prosecutor, at

13 any rate, fulfils in principle immediately all of his disclosure

14 obligations. However, the Chamber makes note that, and as it has already

15 indicated, the Defence must have, before the filing of the motion of the

16 Prosecutor in respect of certain witnesses, elements which would enable it

17 to start and to prepare itself for the relevant witnesses.

18 The Chamber makes a note that the number of additional witnesses

19 for which a disagreement still persists is not that high -- let me state

20 once again we are only talking about seven witnesses -- and that not all

21 of the witnesses will be testifying against all of the accused. In other

22 words, each Defence counsel will have to focus his work only on several --

23 or rather, on certain new witnesses.

24 The Chamber makes a note, finally, that the new witnesses will

25 actually only replace other witnesses, and their names will not be added

Page 4472

1 to already existing witnesses. Therefore, it doesn't mean that the

2 Prosecutor will have an additional time -- that he will be entitled to

3 additional time to complete his case. Starting from the day of tomorrow,

4 the Prosecutor still has 21 days of hearing in total. The motion of the

5 Prosecutor was filed in certain circumstances which can be termed as

6 exceptional circumstances which have enabled us to respond to the motion

7 positively.

8 It doesn't follow from what we have already heard that the Defence

9 will be prejudiced in any manner; however, the Chamber wishes to remind

10 you that it is its duty to ensure the equality of arms between the

11 parties, in particular, by enabling the Defence to have a reasonable

12 amount of time to finish its preparatory work and to envisage measures

13 that are likely to reinstate the equality of arms if it is necessary.

14 The Chamber has decided to grant the motion to revise the witness

15 list and thereby authorises the Prosecutor to call the 12 witnesses listed

16 in his motion. Moreover, as regards the seven witnesses that we have

17 spoken about, and in respect of which there has been no agreement between

18 the parties, those witnesses can be called only during the last session of

19 the Prosecutor's case in-chief, that is, during the week of the 25th until

20 the 29th of September, 2000, or during the week of 2nd to the 6th of

21 October, 2000.

22 Following the testimony of these seven witnesses, that is, after

23 they have been examined in-chief and cross-examined under the usual the

24 circumstances, Defence counsel of each of the accused may submit to the

25 Chamber any motion, specific and with foundation, laid out with a view to

Page 4473

1 describing and obtaining a redress of any prejudice which the accused in

2 question deems to have suffered because of the appearance of any one of

3 the seven witnesses and for not being able to adequately prepare himself.

4 In that case, the Chamber will take all measure that it deems useful,

5 should such a motion be presented.

6 At the end, the Chamber has decided to grant the motion for

7 protective measures for Witnesses AO, AP, AQ, AR, AS, and AT. And let us

8 remind you at the end that the Prosecutor has a maximum of 21 days of

9 hearing to complete the presentation of his case in-chief.

10 This has been the decision of the Chamber.

11 Yes, Mr. O'Sullivan.

12 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honours, will the Chamber be issuing a

13 written decision?

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No. This was an oral decision

15 and it is our final decision.

16 We have therefore fulfilled our objective; namely, we have managed

17 to clarify this very important issue. And we will adjourn for the day and

18 we'll see each other tomorrow morning. And let me just tell you that it

19 is not possible to have a Status Conference to continue our discussion of

20 the agenda which was not completed yesterday because we have some

21 obligations to fulfill this afternoon. But let me first consult my

22 colleagues for a second.

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We can continue our Status

25 Conference tomorrow, at half past 3.00, to discuss the items which were

Page 4474

1 left unresolved. Tomorrow, 9.30.

2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.50 p.m.,

3 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 31st day of

4 August, 2000, at 9.30 a.m.

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