Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4620

1 Friday, 1 September 2000

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated.

6 Good morning, ladies and gentlemen; good morning to the technical

7 booth and the interpreters; good morning to the legal assistants and the

8 registrar, the Prosecution, the Defence counsel. I see they're all here.

9 Good morning to the accused.

10 I think that we can take up our work where we left off yesterday,

11 but I was just told that somebody had something to say before the

12 beginning.

13 Mr. Stojanovic, was it you who asked for the floor and have a

14 problem this morning?

15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, and I think we

16 can settle the problem after yesterday's Status Conference. This morning

17 I spoke with my colleague Mr. Keegan with respect to the testimony of

18 Witness Brkic and having him testify as a Defence witness. My colleague

19 agreed, and if I'm correct, he has contacted the witness. He has

20 discussed the matter with him so in order to save time later on. And the

21 witness is ready to testify. He is still here. Is there any possibility

22 within the frameworks of standard procedure of having the witness called

23 back and so to complete his examination at this Tribunal? I think that

24 Mr. Keegan could assist me in this matter and explain it to you. Thank

25 you.

Page 4621

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Keegan.

2 MR. KEEGAN: Thank you, Your Honour. I'm not sure how I would

3 assist a Defence application, but yesterday afternoon, after a

4 conversation with Mr. Stojanovic, it appeared that he was still -- wanted

5 to somehow question Mr. Brkic with respect to certain matters. I

6 indicated that, you know, he could potentially request leave to recall the

7 witness based on our discussions yesterday, and what seemed to be moving

8 towards a resolution of how to deal with statement, use of statements in

9 cross-examination, et cetera, now that the ground is a bit more clear.

10 Based on the indications that he might in fact make that

11 application, I contacted the Victims and Witnesses Unit and the witness to

12 make sure he was willing and able to come back. And in fact that is

13 possible, so he is available should the Chamber grant an application to

14 recall him this morning.

15 The Prosecution's position in this regard is that if -- this to us

16 is another aspect of Rule 90, which hasn't been fully discussed yet, but

17 the way we read subparagraph H -- excuse me, paragraph H, subparagraphs

18 (i) and (ii), is that there is really a two-step phase here. If we are

19 moving into the aspect where the witness is to give evidence relevant to

20 the case for the cross-examining party, then subparagraph (ii) becomes

21 effective, which requires the cross-examining party to put to the witness

22 the nature of the case that they are trying to present through that

23 witness' evidence.

24 So first, it's not simply a matter of conducting a

25 cross-examination. We're now moving into a different arena, and it is, as

Page 4622

1 I understand it, perhaps more akin to the system in the UK and in

2 Australia, where you have to advise or put your case to the witness before

3 actually questioning them on a matter.

4 The second aspect of this, and something that I would be more

5 familiar with, and that is: What Mr. Stojanovic is really seeking to do

6 is now to take the witness on as his own witness. And if that is indeed

7 the case, then what he should be doing is in fact conducting a direct

8 examination of this witness on those matters, even though, as a technical

9 matter, it's coming during his cross-examination, if you will, of the

10 witness. I think, as a matter of law, we're moving into a different

11 arena. He is now in fact conducting a direct examination. Our redirect,

12 if you will, would in fact then be a cross-examination of the witness

13 based on this new area.

14 So the Prosecution is of course -- will not object if the Chamber

15 wants to grant leave of this application, since the witness is available

16 and it is more convenient for the witness. We're not sure, in fact, that

17 the area merits additional examination; however, if it is granted, then we

18 believe this new method, if you will, or this separate aspect of Rule 90

19 comes into play, and what Mr. Stojanovic must be advised is that he is in

20 fact conducting a direct examination on this topic, not a

21 cross-examination, and that we would then have the opportunity to

22 cross-examine the witness based on this new area. Thank you, Your

23 Honours.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Stojanovic.

25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, any of these

Page 4623

1 variants is available to us. There's just one question that might contain

2 some subquestions that I'm interested in. We, of course, do not question

3 any right of the Prosecution to ask any additional questions.

4 The problem is of a formal nature, that is to say, whether he

5 should be examined as a Defence witness later on. But any variant is all

6 right by us. What we want to do is just to have a chance to ask the

7 witness these questions, and of course accord the Prosecution the right to

8 further examine the witness on the basis of that.

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Stojanovic, could you inform

11 the Chamber which questions you would like to put to the witness and the

12 questions that could come within the framework of the

13 examination-in-chief, that is to say, the questions that you're going to

14 ask, that you intend to ask and that you would ask if the witness were a

15 Defence witness?

16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps it is superfluous for me

17 to remind the Chamber that Mr. Zigic is charged with the killing of Becir

18 Medunjanin from Omarska, and from the written statement of this witness,

19 we learn that he is well acquainted with the circumstances of the death of

20 Becir Medunjanin. I think he said that he does not know Becir Medunjanin,

21 but the witness said that he did know about the event, and that's where we

22 stopped off. So my questions have to do with that exclusive incident,

23 nothing else. We have had a chance to ask the witness everything else

24 that we wanted to know. Thank you. So it is about Becir Medunjanin.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. The Chamber, bearing

Page 4624

1 in mind the interests of justice and the administration of justice, as we

2 have the witness present, and bearing in mind the fact that the Prosecutor

3 has the right to cross-examine him in this area and the fact that

4 Mr. Stojanovic also enjoys the right to pose questions, additional

5 complementary questions, if the case arises, should the need arise, the

6 Chamber has decided to grant the right of the requesting party to go

7 ahead. So we're going to allow the questioning of this witness.

8 Are you going to recall the witness, Mr. Piacente? I think it's

9 Mr. Piacente's turn, is it not?

10 MR. KEEGAN: No, Your Honour, I will actually conduct the

11 cross-examination. But the witness should be available. Abdulah Brkic.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.

13 Mr. Usher, will you please recall the witness, have him brought

14 into the courtroom.

15 Mr. Stojanovic, I should like to ask you to ask the witness the

16 question but to explain to him why you are asking the question of him. I

17 hope that's clear.

18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you, Your Honours.

19 [The witness entered court]


21 [Witness answered through interpreter]

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness. Thank

23 you very much for coming back. We have some complementary questions to

24 ask you. You're not going to take the solemn declaration again because

25 we're going to take it as a continuation of your previous testimony. But

Page 4625

1 let me remind you that you are still under oath, and you shall now be

2 answering questions put to you by Mr. Stojanovic.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Stojanovic, your witness.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone to the counsel.

7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I should like to express my

8 gratitude to the Trial Chamber for granting me permission to pose the

9 questions, and to thank the Prosecution for their understanding.

10 Cross-examined by Mr. Stojanovic: [Continued]

11 Q. I should like to wish the witness a very good morning, once

12 again.

13 A. Good morning.

14 Q. I have already introduced myself. Mr. Brkic, we touched upon a

15 topic that I should like to dwell on for a moment and ask you one

16 additional question, with several subquestions perhaps. We discussed the

17 topic of the death of Becir Medunjanin. If I'm not mistaken, you said

18 that you know quite a lot about that event in Omarska. Can you continue

19 and tell us what you know about that event?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. I should like to ask you to continue and recount what you know

22 about the event, and then I would ask you some more concrete questions as

23 we go along.

24 Did you see, on any occasion, Duca Knezevic in the Omarska camp?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4626

1 Q. Did you see him kill anybody then in Omarska?

2 A. I never said in my statement that I saw him kill, and that the man

3 was dead on the spot.

4 Q. Did you say that he used a knife on someone?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Could you tell us how he injured that particular individual?

7 A. He slit his throat here, like this. Now, how deep the cut was, I

8 don't know. Whether the man was dead on the spot or not, I don't know.

9 They took him out from behind the "white house," and I didn't see the man

10 any more after that.

11 Q. Did anybody tell you who the man was?

12 A. I was told before. When I arrived in Omarska, on one particular

13 day we were lying down on the pista, and they told us then to get up

14 "because your leader has arrived. Look at him." We got up, and when I

15 looked, I saw a man whom I had never met before, and I heard from the

16 other prisoners that it was Becir Medunjanin.

17 Q. Did you see in detail how Duca pulled out a knife?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And how he hit -- that is, slit --

20 A. Yes, he slit the man here, like this. Yes, I did see that.

21 Q. Were you close by?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Was there a pool of blood from that injury next to your feet?

24 A. Yes, there was blood.

25 Q. In your statement, and I can read it to you, the portion of your

Page 4627

1 statement, you said Becir was dead on the spot.

2 A. No, I did not state that ever.

3 Q. It is on page 15. I can show it to you. I think that it is in

4 the B/C/S version on page 15, and also on page 15 of the English version.

5 "Becir died instantly," it reads in English.

6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] So if I may, I'd like to present

7 this statement, have it shown to the witness.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Keegan.

9 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour. I'm going to object at this point,

10 because he's asked the question and the witness has said he didn't say

11 it. Showing it to him in writing does nothing to change that testimony.

12 Again, this now gets into the area of the use of the statement as

13 evidence, and then we're opening that door that we described again

14 yesterday. The questions can be asked, but I think there's a separation

15 here.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Stojanovic.

17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we don't want to

18 complicate matters, particularly after you granted our request. I

19 withdraw the question.

20 Q. During this event, did you happen to see Zoran Zigic anywhere

21 around?

22 A. You mean at that particular instant?

23 Q. No. During the events and circumstances of the slitting of his

24 neck.

25 A. No. Duca was alone in the corridor.

Page 4628

1 Q. Was Zoran Zigic anywhere in the "white house" or anywhere in

2 Omarska at the time?

3 A. He was in Omarska on that day, but I do not know where he was.

4 Q. Was he in the "white house"?

5 A. I said that I do not know where he was.

6 Q. After this event, did you see Zoran? That is to say, do you know

7 whether this man died at all?

8 A. I don't know. I didn't claim that. But I didn't see the man

9 anymore. That's all.

10 Q. Afterwards, did you see Mr. Zigic in Omarska, after the event?

11 A. Yes, frequently.

12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know whether

13 I will step outside these frameworks, but I think the witness said -- I

14 think the witness said that he saw him only once in Omarska yesterday.

15 Q. Is that right, Witness? Did you say that?

16 Before the slitting took place with the knife, did that same

17 Duca --

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Mr. Stojanovic. Once

19 you've broached a question, the witness must answer. So the question was:

20 Did he see Mr. Zigic only once in Omarska or not?

21 Did you see him only once or did you see him at other times as

22 well, Witness? What is your answer?

23 A. Several times.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Please continue,

25 Mr. Stojanovic.

Page 4629

1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. This particular man, Duca Knezevic, before slitting the person's

3 neck, whom you learnt from others was called Becir Medunjanin, did he in

4 any other way mistreat, beat, or abuse this man?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Could you tell us in what way?

7 A. Well, he had a sort of baton with a sort of ball on it and he

8 would beat people with that ball. I was beaten with that ball too.

9 Q. Is it a ball directly attached to the baton?

10 A. Yes. At the top of the baton there was a ball like this attached

11 to it.

12 Q. How did he hit him? On his body, his head?

13 A. Everywhere. All over.

14 Q. On his head?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did this man, Medunjanin, react in any way, say anything?

17 A. Yes, he did. I remember his words very well.

18 Q. Could you please tell us what he said.

19 A. He said, "Go ahead, beat me, Duca. You've got a good system. But

20 don't remember [as interpreted] that from here to Banja Luka, Sarajevo,

21 Tuzla, and Bihac, there are a lots of Muslims, and one of the Muslims will

22 catch up with you." Those were his last words.

23 Q. After this event, did you ever see that man again, the man who was

24 injured?

25 A. No.

Page 4630

1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have no further

2 questions. I would like to express my gratitude to the witness and to the

3 Trial Chamber for allowing me to go ahead. I have no further questions.

4 Thank you.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.

6 Mr. Keegan, your witness for the cross-examination.

7 MR. KEEGAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Cross-examined by Mr. Keegan:

9 Q. Mr. Brkic, you indicated that you had no independent knowledge of

10 Becir Medunjanin before you were in the camp. That is, you didn't know

11 him, did you?

12 A. Correct.

13 Q. The man that you saw beaten in the hallway that day, you don't

14 know yourself that that was Becir Medunjanin, do you?

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. Do you know how many people were beaten or, indeed, even killed

17 that day in the "white house"?

18 A. No.

19 Q. You've testified that the man, in addition to being cut with the

20 knife, was being beaten severely with this baton with the metal ball on

21 the end of it. Prior to even being cut with the knife, was there already

22 blood all over the hallway from the beating?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And was the man already bleeding rather heavily?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4631

1 Q. And the last you saw of this event was the man being dragged out

2 of the "white house"; is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And you have no knowledge of what happened to that man or whether

5 or not, indeed, he even died after that; is that correct?

6 A. I do not know that. I never saw that man again.

7 MR. KEEGAN: No further questions, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Stojanovic, do you have any

9 additional questions?

10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours. Thank you.

11 Questioned by the Court:

12 JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Brkic, good morning.

13 A. Good morning.

14 JUDGE RIAD: I just want some precision, which you already gave

15 perhaps, concerning this event. You have been -- apparently in your

16 career you have been a butcher, so you know what is the slit of a throat.

17 When Duca slit the throat of Becir, was this, in your opinion, if you were

18 close enough, was it a heavy one or was it just a wound which would not

19 kill? And the amount of blood which came out, was it indicative of a real

20 slit or of a wound? Could you -- were you able to see that, and where was

21 the slit exactly?

22 A. I do not think that it was a deep wound. It was just a cut here,

23 below the chin, and there was some blood. I don't know whether the wound

24 was lethal and could he die of that wound or what they did to him

25 afterwards. All I know, that after that they simply pulled him out and

Page 4632

1 left him on the grass behind the "white house".

2 JUDGE RIAD: When he was pulled out, the stream of blood coming

3 out, was it immense? Was it a big stream of blood or just drops of blood

4 coming out of a wound?

5 A. Well, he was bleeding, of course, because I was in this business,

6 a butcher. And blood did not spurt out, but there was some bleeding.

7 Whether that was enough and for what, I don't know.

8 JUDGE RIAD: And you never saw him again?

9 A. I did not.

10 JUDGE RIAD: Was he in a room -- he was not supposed to be in the

11 same room as you?

12 A. No, because I wasn't in that room that day. It was raining that

13 day and they put us around all the rooms. And then after the rain

14 stopped, they said, "Well, those who were on the pista should go back to

15 the pista. All men from the pista back to the pista."

16 JUDGE RIAD: When Duca did that with the knife, did he mention

17 that he wanted to kill him?

18 A. No.

19 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you once again, Witness

21 Brkic, for coming here. We thank you once again and we wish you a safe

22 journey back to your home.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Usher, will you please help the

25 witness out of the courtroom.

Page 4633

1 [The witness withdrew]

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Do you have another witness,

3 Mr. Keegan, somebody who was already here?

4 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I should like to ask the parties

6 to do their best to complete the evidence of this testimony today rather

7 than to have to recall him on Tuesday. I believe you understand. So

8 Mr. Piacente, please to go to the point. And both parties, will you both

9 try your best.

10 [The witness entered court]


12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness. Can you

14 hear me?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Good morning.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated. Yes, because

17 you already made the solemn declaration yesterday, so we consider you as

18 still under oath and you now will be answering questions that are put to

19 you by the Prosecutor. And everybody will do his utmost so that you do

20 not have to come back next week.

21 Mr. Piacente, you have the floor.

22 MR. PIACENTE: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Examined by Mr. Piacente:

24 Q. Your name, please.

25 A. Hase Icic.

Page 4634

1 Q. The date and the place of your birth?

2 A. Third of November, 1948, and I was born in Trnopolje, between

3 Hrnjici and Trnopolje. It is in the direction of Kozarac, municipality of

4 Prijedor.

5 Q. Your ethnicity?

6 A. I'm of Muslim ethnicity.

7 Q. In which village did you live in 1992?

8 A. Trnopolje.

9 Q. Which opstina?

10 A. Prijedor.

11 Q. Have you ever been confined in Keraterm?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Can you recall the date of your arrest?

14 A. I believe it was around the 14th or 15th or thereabouts. June, I

15 mean.

16 Q. 1992, you mean?

17 A. 1992.

18 Q. Did any of your relatives -- was any of your relatives arrested

19 together with you?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And you were driven to Keraterm?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. How were you driven to Keraterm?

24 A. We were put on three buses, and there was yet another truck, a

25 smaller truck.

Page 4635

1 Q. How crowded were the buses and the truck?

2 A. Well, all the buses were full.

3 Q. Who did you see when you arrived in Keraterm?

4 A. When I got to Keraterm I saw soldiers, guards wearing army

5 uniforms, and on the bus with us we also had escorts wearing military

6 uniforms, the uniforms of the former army of Yugoslavia. And there were

7 also police uniforms of the former Yugoslavia.

8 Q. What were you told when you arrived in Keraterm?

9 A. The escorts who were on the bus told us to get off, to stand next

10 to the bus.

11 THE INTERPRETER: I could not hear the end of the witness's

12 sentence. Could the witness be asked to speak up, please.


14 Q. Could you please speak a little bit louder, please.

15 A. I can. I can, yes.

16 Q. Were you searched?

17 A. We were ordered to empty our pockets, to completely empty them.

18 Q. Did you hand over your money?

19 A. Everything.

20 Q. You mean you handed over also your documents?

21 A. Everything. Everything. I handed over everything.

22 Q. Who did you notice specifically during the search?

23 A. Well, for instance, during the search, everything was regular

24 until out of the blue a soldier in a red beret turned up, and he began to

25 shout, to use obscene language, saying things should go faster.

Page 4636

1 Q. Have you ever known the name of this person?

2 A. Oh, yes. I learnt that that man's name was Zoran Zigic.

3 Everybody called him Ziga.

4 Q. How did you know that he was named this way?

5 A. Well, you know, it was easy to learn, because the gentleman

6 introduced himself every time when -- every evening when he would come.

7 Q. How did he treat the prisoners at your arrival?

8 A. You know, my impression was that he wanted to leave the impression

9 that he do with each one of us as he pleased, to kill whomever he wanted,

10 beat, take out, or whatever. As a matter of fact, yes, he could do that,

11 and he did do that.

12 Q. Was your brother beaten by him?

13 A. Yes. During the search, where we were handing over our documents,

14 my brother wasn't all that quick, and perhaps he tried to keep back his

15 passport, because he had a visa and he needed it for a job abroad. But

16 Mr. Zigic ran up to him, grabbed the passport from him, hit him, and tore

17 his passport up, saying, "You'll never need this again."

18 Q. Is your brother still alive?

19 A. No, unfortunately not.

20 Q. Who else was beaten by Zigic at your arrival?

21 A. Well, I guess he knew a friend of his, Alic, and he beat him and

22 hit him and cursed him and kept asking him why had he fired shots at his

23 family.

24 Q. How was Alic beaten?

25 A. Oh, he was beaten with hands and feet and pistols.

Page 4637

1 Q. How long did you stay in Keraterm?

2 A. About three weeks.

3 Q. Which room were you confined?

4 A. Room number 2.

5 Q. How crowded was Room number 2?

6 A. You know that the number varied from one day to the other. There

7 were fewer people when I arrived, but at some point it reached the figure

8 of 1.000.

9 Q. Did you have enough space to lie down and sleep altogether at the

10 same time when it was so crowded?

11 A. Only the first evening. Only the first evening there was room

12 enough for us to sit down but not to lie down. Afterwards we could not

13 even sit down because it was too crammed. But in the beginning, yes, we

14 sat where there was enough room to sit down.

15 Q. Were you interrogated during your confinement in Keraterm?

16 A. Yes, indeed.

17 Q. What did they ask you?

18 A. You know, my impression was that it was a formality. Everything

19 about my origins, from my great-grandfathers and on, until the day I came

20 to Keraterm.

21 Q. What was the ethnicity of the prisoners in Keraterm?

22 A. Well, most of them were Muslims; Croats, and as far as I know,

23 there was a Serb too.

24 Q. Why was he confined in Keraterm?

25 A. As a matter of fact, the Serb was confined there only because he

Page 4638

1 had refused, I think, the SDS plan and the plans of the Serb authorities,

2 and was a member of the SDA.

3 Q. To your knowledge, is he alive?

4 A. He is not alive.

5 Q. Do you know that?

6 A. I am positive because I saw him on the dump, on a heap of rubbish,

7 dead.

8 Q. In Keraterm?

9 A. Keraterm. In Keraterm.

10 Q. What was the ethnicity of the guards?

11 A. The guards were all Serbs, as far as I know.

12 Q. Have you ever known someone named Emsud Bahonjic?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What was his ethnicity?

15 A. He was a Muslim.

16 Q. Did you know him before your confinement in Keraterm?

17 A. Yes, I did, him and his whole family, his parents, his uncles.

18 Q. What kind of job did he have?

19 A. On the eve of the war he had a coffee bar, and he was also a

20 reserve policeman.

21 Q. Did you meet him in Keraterm?

22 A. Yes, sure, I did.

23 Q. In which room was he confined?

24 A. Room number 2.

25 Q. Was he already detained in Keraterm when you arrived?

Page 4639

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What condition did you find him in when you saw him for the first

3 time in Keraterm?

4 A. Wretched. He was beaten.

5 Q. Did you talk to him?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Why?

8 A. I do not think he really was able to speak at all, and those who

9 came with him advised not to talk to him. Even his uncle and others from

10 the first room were not allowed to come and help him or give him some

11 water at least, if nothing else.

12 Q. Was Emsud beaten other times after your arrival in Keraterm?

13 A. Once only.

14 Q. What happened?

15 A. Well, as a matter of fact, he could not walk under his own steam.

16 Other inmates dragged him out, helped him to get out. With another group,

17 he was called out and battered outside in front of the entrance into the

18 room.

19 Q. Who called him out?

20 A. He was called out by Mr. Zigic.

21 Q. Was Mr. Zigic alone when he called him out or was he with other

22 people?

23 A. He was never alone. You know, he'd come to the door alone and

24 perhaps stand in the doorway, but there would always be an escort behind

25 him.

Page 4640













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Page 4641

1 Q. How many people were called out?

2 A. On that occasion, I think four or five men were called out.

3 Q. Did you know anybody else out of that group of people who were

4 called out?

5 A. On that occasion, yes, I knew others too; that is, not directly

6 but I heard names, because they were with us in the room. Those that were

7 in the room, they knew those people who had been called out.

8 Q. Can you mention their ethnicity or the names?

9 A. They were all Muslims.

10 Q. Can you recall their names?

11 A. Well, names, I don't recall. I remember there was a Jakupovic;

12 then there was -- well, you know, it's a long time ago. I've really

13 forgotten all those names. It would take me some time to remember them.

14 But I do know that all those men had been sitting in the back, not far

15 from me.

16 Q. What did you hear after Emsud and the other ones were taken out?

17 A. As usual, you know, when somebody is outside and he's beaten, he's

18 battered, in the room, there's, what do you call it, a pin-drop silence.

19 Everybody is very quiet, so one hears beating and noise and obscenities,

20 cries of pain, moans.

21 Q. Was Emsud cursed during the beating?

22 A. They cursed everybody.

23 Q. Can you recall anybody in particular who cursed them?

24 A. Zigic, for instance. He never stopped cursing.

25 Q. How long after he was taken out did Emsud come back to Room number

Page 4642

1 2?

2 A. Emsud did not come back, he was brought back. He was thrown in,

3 and then other inmates took him to the same place and put him there. It

4 lasted slightly over half an hour.

5 Q. In what condition was he?

6 A. I couldn't see it then, but the next day he practically could not

7 move.

8 Q. Did you talk to him?

9 A. No. Nobody talked to him again.

10 Q. Among the prisoners who were taken out together with Emsud

11 Bahonjic, was there anybody who didn't come back to Room number 2 or who

12 was never brought back to Room number 2?

13 A. Oh, yes, a young man of Albanian ethnicity. He used to work for

14 the coffee shop Zvjezdas and allegedly was its owner. He did not return

15 to Room number 2.

16 Q. Can you tell us, to your knowledge, whether Emsud Bahonjic and

17 this Albanian survived?

18 A. No, they did not.

19 Q. How often did Zoran Zigic, during your confinement in Keraterm,

20 come to Room number 2 and call out prisoners?

21 A. Zoran Zigic came every day while I was in Keraterm, because, you

22 know, he was like that. He beats somebody, he frightens that person, and

23 then an hour later or half an hour later, comes to sell cigarettes to us

24 and says, "Well, here's your Ziga. He won't let you suffer without

25 cigarettes. A carton of cigarettes costs 100 German marks."

Page 4643

1 Q. Did Zigic ever shoot inside Room number 2 when he came in and

2 called prisoners out?

3 A. Oh, yes, sure. He fired shots the first night at the ceiling.

4 That was his speciality. In the morning he would come there and order us

5 to pull back, to all retreat back to the wall in the back. And people

6 jumped and we almost suffocated because we were so afraid and crowded

7 there in that corner.

8 Q. To your knowledge, was anybody wounded?

9 A. Yes. Yes, a young man was wounded.

10 Q. In which part of his body was he wounded?

11 A. Leg, I think.

12 Q. Of course, my question was, was anybody wounded when Zigic entered

13 the room and shot?

14 A. That was then, because he was firing at the ceiling, at the beam

15 in the ceiling. It was a huge hall and there was this long bearing beam,

16 and he fired at this beam and the bullet ricocheted and hit that guy in

17 the leg.

18 Q. Can you tell us which position Zigic had in the camp?

19 A. I don't know what his position was before I came, whether he was a

20 shift commander or what. But when I came, he was free, he could do as he

21 pleased in Keraterm. Except one. Only one shift commander wouldn't let

22 him do as he pleased. But otherwise he could always do as he pleased. So

23 it is difficult to say what he really was in Keraterm or -- be that as it

24 may, he wasn't a guard then.

25 Q. How was he usually dressed?

Page 4644

1 A. He always wore a red beret and he had a military uniform on him.

2 Sometimes he would just have trousers on and a T-shirt. He wasn't always

3 dressed the same way. But he always had this beret with him. If it

4 wasn't on his head, it would be on his shoulder or tucked into his belt or

5 under his arm.

6 Q. Did he used to carry weapons in Keraterm?

7 A. Yes. Yes, he always carried a pistol with him.

8 Q. Can you give us a description of Zigic, a physical description of

9 Zigic, I mean?

10 A. Well, for instance, he was of medium height, perhaps a little

11 taller. Not too tall, though. He was dark. That would be that, more or

12 less.

13 Q. What was, approximately, his age at the time?

14 A. It's difficult to assess somebody's age. I think that at that

15 time he was probably around 35. How old he is now, you can add a bit to

16 that.

17 Q. Was he taller or shorter than you at that time?

18 A. At that time, well, I didn't compare the two of us, but I think he

19 was a little shorter than me.

20 Q. How tall are you?

21 A. I am 1 metre 82.

22 Q. You said he was dark at that time. What do you mean? Did he have

23 dark hair, dark skin?

24 A. No, not skin. When I say "dark," I mean he had sort of black,

25 dark hair, although of course they're not all pitch black. People have

Page 4645

1 even blacker hair. But he was dark. He had dark hair, not fair hair.

2 That's what I meant.

3 Q. What about his complexion? Was he slim? Was he fat?

4 A. He wasn't fat, no. He had a sportsman's build.

5 Q. Did you notice anything on his hands?

6 A. Only afterwards. Not the first day, but afterwards I noticed that

7 one of his hands was bandaged. He had a bandage.

8 Q. Can you recall which hand was bandaged?

9 A. Well, that would be a little difficult because a lot of time has

10 gone by, so I couldn't tell you with any certainty.

11 Q. Did you know him personally before you arrived in Keraterm?

12 A. I didn't know him personally before, no. I didn't know Mr. Zigic

13 before.

14 Q. Do you have any knowledge of what his job was before the

15 establishment of the Keraterm camp?

16 A. Well, I knew that he was a taxi driver.

17 Q. Do you know Milenko Zigic?

18 A. I knew Milenko Zigic since childhood. He worked in our warehouse

19 with the construction material.

20 Q. Where?

21 A. He worked in Trnopolje, and later on, prior to the war, he worked

22 in Kamicani.

23 Q. Is there, to your knowledge, any relationship between Milenko

24 Zigic and Zigic, the person you know as Zigic and you saw in Keraterm?

25 A. I know that the other one is his uncle.

Page 4646

1 Q. Milenko Zigic is the uncle of the person you saw in Keraterm; is

2 that correct?

3 A. Yes. Yes, that's correct.

4 Q. Have you ever seen Zigic again after you left Keraterm?

5 A. When I left the Keraterm camp, I never saw Zoran Zigic.

6 Q. Have you ever seen him on TV or in newspapers or in other

7 locations?

8 A. No. No, I did not, either in the newspapers or on television, or

9 in any other circumstances either.

10 Q. Would you be able to identify him today, after eight years?

11 A. Well, let me tell you one thing, a lot of time has gone by and

12 people change. And also he wore a different uniform then. But if you

13 want me to, I'll have a go. I'll try.

14 Q. Can you look around the courtroom, please, and can you tell us

15 whether you recognise anybody sitting in this room as the man named Zoran

16 Zigic?

17 A. I think, unless I'm mistaken, that Mr. Zigic could be, judging by

18 what I think, the gentleman in the first row with that grey tie and black

19 shirt.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me for interrupting. But

21 could the accused take off their headphones, please, and stand, stand up,

22 all of them. Could you all stand up and take your headsets off.

23 [The accused stand up]

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness, you can get up too to

25 have a better look.

Page 4647

1 [The witness stands up]

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness, you may be seated, and

3 the accused may be seated as well. Thank you very much for your

4 cooperation.

5 [The accused and witness sit down]

6 MR. PIACENTE: For the record, Your Honour, the identification has

7 been positive.


9 [Interpretation] Witness, are you sure that you have identified

10 the individual that you spoke of, after having seen the accused standing

11 up, and when you yourself stood up? Are you sure that it is that

12 particular individual?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am 99 per cent certain, because

14 the rest could not be Mr. Zigic.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Okay. You may

16 continue, Mr. Piacente.

17 MR. PIACENTE: Thank you, Your Honour. I apologise for

18 anticipating.

19 Q. Where were you transferred after Keraterm?

20 A. From Keraterm, I was transferred to the Omarska camp.

21 Q. Can you recall the date?

22 A. Dates are always difficult, you know, because there were times

23 when you didn't actually recall dates unless you wrote them down. And

24 even if you did make a note of them, you couldn't be certain that you were

25 right, because you forget the order in which things happened. But I think

Page 4648

1 that it was up until the 9th of July, thereabouts, until then.

2 Q. How many people were transferred with you from Keraterm to

3 Omarska?

4 A. To be quite truthful, I didn't count how many of us there were,

5 but the bus was full.

6 Q. Did you travel -- were you driven in only one bus?

7 A. Well, one bus was taken to Omarska at that time.

8 Q. Okay. Who did you see when you arrived in Omarska?

9 A. You know, I saw a lot of people. They were wearing different

10 uniforms. There were even people in civilian clothing.

11 Q. You said also there were people with uniforms. What kind of

12 uniforms?

13 A. Well, there were military uniforms, then there were police

14 uniforms, and there were even those wearing the olive-green type of

15 uniform worn by the reserve Yugoslav army when they didn't -- weren't

16 wearing their summer uniforms. So they were mixed, mixed types of

17 uniform.

18 Q. Did anybody get into the bus when you arrived in Omarska, one of

19 the people you mentioned before?

20 A. Yes, a gentleman did. He got onto the bus through the front

21 door. He went up to the driver and took lists. Because lists were made

22 of all of us. We were -- all our names were on a list. Nobody arrived at

23 the camp without his name being recorded on a list. And this particular

24 gentleman took those lists and cynically he welcomed us to the camp with

25 this cynical smirk, and he said, "Well, it's not every day that you can

Page 4649

1 arrive at Omarska."

2 Q. How was he dressed?

3 A. He was wearing a police uniform.

4 Q. Can you tell us whether you ever knew his name?

5 A. Yes. I learnt his name that same day and all the other days that

6 I spent in the camp. Everybody knew who that man was.

7 Q. Who told you his name?

8 A. Well, on that first day a girl by the name of Hodzic came in, and

9 she told us and advised us how to behave, because she said that the worst

10 group of guards were on duty and that they were led by somebody called

11 Krkan.

12 Q. To your knowledge, was Krkan the first name, the last name, or a

13 nickname of this person?

14 A. Krkan was a nickname.

15 Q. How could you identify the person who got into the bus as the

16 person this woman talked to you about as Krkan?

17 A. Afterwards, many difficult things took place, deep into the night,

18 and Mr. Krkan played a major role in all these events.

19 Q. Did you see him several times in Omarska?

20 A. Yes, yes. On that particular day he took the roll-call as we got

21 down from the bus, and also when we were taken to interrogation and when

22 we waited in line for death.

23 Q. Okay. Did you get off the bus?

24 A. Yes, I did.

25 Q. Where did you go to?

Page 4650

1 A. We were told to run the gauntlet, made up of people standing in

2 line, the police and the army. That is to say, we had to run from the bus

3 to the "white house," between this cordon, and they would hit us with

4 different objects. But there were too many of them, so they would

5 interfere with each other's blows.

6 Q. When you ran to the "white house," did you find other people who

7 continued to beat you?

8 A. Well, we came and they came after us.

9 Q. Did they beat you?

10 A. They beat us, they stamped on us. We had to sing their songs.

11 Q. Where were you placed when you got into the "white house"?

12 A. In the second room to the right of the entrance to the "white

13 house."

14 Q. Did you stay in that room that night? I mean, did you stay in

15 that room when you entered? I mean, how long did you stay in that room?

16 A. We stayed in that room until they began calling out our names to

17 take us off for interrogation.

18 Q. Can you tell us, in a correct chronological order, to your

19 recollection, what happened to you after your arrival in Omarska.

20 A. Well, for example, I'll try to give you the sequence of events,

21 although it might not be quite in that sequence, but I'm going to tell you

22 the truth; I'm not going to lie. As soon as we entered the "white house,"

23 when we ran into it, actually, we had to lie down on the floor, all of us.

24 Q. Who ordered you to lie down on the floor?

25 A. Well, at that particular moment, we weren't looking to see who was

Page 4651

1 giving out the orders, but one of the guards or the ones who mistreated us

2 ordered us to lie down. There wasn't enough space, so we had to cram up,

3 one against the other. And we were told to stretch out our hands above

4 our heads, and with our fingers to make the sign, a sign like the sign

5 used when the Serbs pray. It was difficult to do this because there

6 wasn't enough space.

7 Q. Did all of you obey?

8 A. We all obeyed, but it's a little funny, actually, because one man

9 didn't have a finger. He was lacking a finger, so he couldn't press these

10 three fingers together. And they liked that, and then they beat him and

11 they said, "Well, he's fucking around with us. He doesn't want to make

12 this three-fingered sign but only does it with two of his fingers."

13 Q. You mentioned before that you were interrogated. When were you

14 interrogated?

15 A. They interrogated us straight away, as soon as Mr. Krkan entered

16 and stopped this maltreatment and said, "Now you're going to go out in the

17 order I call you out. You're going to go back the way you came. You're

18 going to follow a policeman," a young man who led us, and we went behind

19 him. That is to say, I went behind him; I followed him.

20 Q. Where did you go to be interrogated?

21 A. I went up onto the floor above the miners' canteen, into the last

22 room on the left-hand side.

23 Q. What happened during your way to the place where you were

24 interrogated?

25 A. The people who were there -- that is to say, I left very quickly,

Page 4652

1 and some of them started beating me again, jumped up to beat me again. A

2 policeman was sitting down there on a chair and playing around with a

3 knife, and then he pricked me in the stomach.

4 Q. Were you wounded?

5 A. No. Luckily the knife hit the buckle of my belt which I had.

6 Q. What kind of questions were you asked?

7 A. Well, actually, they didn't really ask me any questions, because

8 they had my statement from Keraterm and nothing else.

9 Q. Where were you confined after your interrogation?

10 A. After the interrogation I was led back to Room number 2, on the

11 opposite side from the Room number 2 that I arrived in.

12 Q. Were also the other people who were interrogated placed in that

13 same place?

14 A. Yes. After being interrogated, we all went into this other room

15 so that we would not meddle and mix with those who hadn't been

16 interrogated yet.

17 Q. Were you asked to hand over your money?

18 A. We were not directly asked to hand over our money, but if you

19 think of the list, a piece of paper which Mr. Krkan brought, along with a

20 pencil, after our arrival and placed it in a corner, and he said, "Here

21 you have a piece of paper. All of you are to write down your name, the

22 amount of money or gold or jewellery you have with you. And if you have

23 enough, you'll be spared torture."

24 Q. Can you recall which was the exact moment when Mr. Krkan asked you

25 to put down your names on the paper?

Page 4653

1 A. He didn't ask me personally, but he explained to all of us what he

2 expected us to do. He came towards evening, I think. It wasn't dark

3 yet. I don't know the exact time. And of course I can't remember what

4 happened minute by minute and hour by hour.

5 Q. Was it before or after your interrogation?

6 A. It was after my interrogation.

7 Q. Did you write down your names?

8 A. Yes, of course.

9 Q. Did you have any money at that time or anything valuable?

10 A. I did not. I did not have anything. I didn't even have a watch,

11 because they had taken my watch and my jacket. I had nothing. But nobody

12 gave anything. Nobody had anything to give.

13 Q. So what was the reaction of Krkan when he realised that you only

14 wrote down your names?

15 A. Well, for example, he always acted the same, and I think that he

16 knew what he was doing. And he wasn't like Zigic in Keraterm. He

17 didn't -- he did everything in a routine manner; he wouldn't hit any

18 heights.

19 MR. PIACENTE: Your Honour, now I'm moving to the next matter, to

20 a different matter. If you want, I can keep on examining the witness or

21 if you want to have a break now.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Perhaps it would be better to

23 have a break, so let us have a half-hour break now and we'll reconvene

24 after that.

25 --- Recess taken at 10.56 a.m.

Page 4654

1 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated.

3 Mr. Jovan Simic, it seems that Mr. Prcac doesn't feel well.

4 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. May I just have

5 your leave to approach him.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, do that.

7 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

8 [Defence counsel and accused confer]

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Jovan Simic.

10 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have a problem,

11 because for some reason, the doctor at the Detention Unit stopped the

12 treatment which has to do with the mental state and the headaches that my

13 client was suffering from. He has splitting headaches. Yesterday he

14 somehow managed to stand it, but today he is in a very bad state. I

15 called the doctor and he said that he would again administer the medicines

16 but that nothing could be done for the moment. And now I'm really at a

17 loss and I am not sure what I should do.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But we can continue without

19 Mr. Prcac. So if he doesn't feel well and if he is not up to staying in

20 the courtroom, we shall proceed without him. Very well. So will somebody

21 in the Registry take the necessary measures?

22 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Prcac says that, yes, if

23 possible, he would like to go and lie down because he is really feeling

24 bad.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. We shall take the

Page 4655

1 necessary measures. But we have to see whether we can continue in his

2 presence or not -- without his presence or not.

3 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So will somebody help Mr. Prcac

5 to leave. I think he should see his doctor immediately.

6 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, will you do

8 something? He should be taken out immediately. Madam Registrar, will you

9 do something? See if there is a doctor available immediately.

10 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] If I may.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Fila.

13 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I merely wanted to say

14 that Dr. Vera Petrovic is in the Detention Unit. She speaks Serbian, and

15 we have already notified her about his condition. So if he could be

16 transferred back to the Detention Unit immediately, the doctor is already

17 there.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] If Mr. Prcac agrees that we

19 continue without his presence, then the registrar should take all the

20 necessary measures immediately. I have already said it twice: The

21 registrar should take all the measures immediately. And if Mr. Prcac

22 agrees, then we shall continue in his absence. If he does not agree, then

23 we shall have to adjourn.

24 Mr. Simic, what is the position?

25 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, we agree that we can continue

Page 4656

1 without his presence. But I should like to seek your leave to leave the

2 courtroom for awhile just to speak to the doctor in the Detention Unit,

3 and then I shall be back.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, you may leave.

5 Madam Registrar, is there somebody in the Registry at the moment

6 who can help?

7 THE REGISTRAR: We have a doctor here. Perhaps I can call her

8 up.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Because Mr. Prcac

10 needs to be transferred immediately to the Detention Unit. But if a

11 doctor is present here, he can be examined even before that.

12 Madam Registrar, I shall give the information. What is the result

13 of your efforts?

14 THE REGISTRAR: We have called the doctor and the doctor is coming

15 upstairs. I've asked the usher to go to the elevator and wait for the

16 doctor, and we're going to bring the doctor to the room there.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. We shall then move

18 on. We do not need the usher for the moment, and if we do, we shall

19 resolve it in some other way. But the doctor has been called up, and I

20 think it will be best if the doctor sees Mr. Prcac even before he is

21 transferred back to the Detention Unit.

22 Very well. Shall we proceed, Mr. Piacente? It is up to you.

23 Will you resume, please.

24 MR. PIACENTE: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

25 Q. Had you ever been beaten after your arrival in Omarska?

Page 4657

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Were all the other prisoners who were interrogated in the same

3 location you were interrogated beaten after your arrival in Omarska?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. How were you beaten?

6 A. Well, you know, the list that we had made, that is, this list

7 where each one of us wrote his name, Mr. Krkan took this list and then

8 followed down the -- just went down the list, and each one of those

9 persons was beaten.

10 Q. Were you called out from the room you were confined in at that

11 moment to be beaten?

12 A. Yes, I was called out.

13 Q. When was it during the day? Was it dark or was it still light?

14 A. It was in the evening. But I have to describe it to you. There

15 was no electricity in the "white house" at the time. So, for instance, a

16 group of torturers would arrive earlier, headed by Krkan, and they would

17 provide some makeshift lighting in the passageway and in the small room at

18 the end of the passage.

19 Q. So where were the prisoners taken when they were called out to be

20 beaten?

21 A. Every individual would be called out and he would have to go to

22 the small room at the end of the passage, and there he would be beaten.

23 Q. Who would call him?

24 A. Mr. Krkan was the one who called out the names.

25 Q. Following the list of names you had previously written down; is

Page 4658

1 that correct?

2 A. It is, yes. On the basis of the list that we had compiled

3 ourselves.

4 Q. What could you hear after the people were taken out to be beaten?

5 A. We heard only blows, and it was somewhat strange. At least, I

6 found it strange that one couldn't hear a single voice, that one could

7 hear only blows, blows and nothing but blows.

8 Q. How many people were called before you actually were called?

9 A. Over one half of the men who were in that room had been called

10 out, and then there was a break, a longish break of about half an hour or

11 so, and they were discussing something outside. And I felt happy. I

12 thought that would be the end of the torture, but unfortunately they came

13 back and went on calling us out.

14 Q. How many people were confined in the room waiting to be beaten?

15 A. As I have said, I never counted all of us who were there, because

16 that was the last thing we would do, to start counting those present. But

17 more than one half of those men who had been on the bus with me had

18 already been battered, and then my turn came.

19 Q. Could you hear what they said during the break, I mean what the

20 people who would beat the prisoners [Realtime transcript read in error

21 "who were beat by"] said during the break?

22 A. Yes. We could hear them, because it was in front. Later on, when

23 I came out of the "white house," I could see that there was a bench in

24 front of the "white house," and I must have sat there and perhaps had a

25 drink or two. And they were addressing each other by first name and

Page 4659













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the English

14 and French transcripts.












Page 4660

1 seemed to be distributing parts: "Well, you'll do this better and I'll do

2 that," and so-and-so will do that and so-and-so will do this. At any rate,

3 they were discussing how they would go on with the torture.

4 MR. PIACENTE: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I'm reading the

5 transcript. I think there is an oversight in the transcript, because my

6 question was: "Could you hear what they said during the break, I mean

7 what the people who would beat the prisoners said during the break," not

8 "who were beaten by the prisoners." That was my question. And perhaps

9 due to an oversight in the transcript, I read: "I mean what the people

10 who were beat by the prisoners said during the break," which is not what I

11 asked, actually.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for His Honour.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Then ask your question again.

14 Put your question again, and that is how you will get the correction.


16 Q. So what did you hear from the people who would beat the prisoners

17 during the break?

18 A. Yes. In front of the "white house" they were discussing about how

19 they would work. They distributed the parts, how they would go on beating

20 us; that would be in a nutshell.

21 Q. So you said before you were called, your turn came after the

22 break. Who called you out?

23 A. Krkan was the one who called out the names throughout.

24 Q. Where were you taken?

25 A. I was told to go to that small room to the left, and instinctively

Page 4661

1 I stopped, I hesitated, and then Krkan pushed me slightly and said, "What

2 are you waiting for?" So I entered, or rather I stopped in the doorway

3 and I was ordered to greet them in the Serb way.

4 Q. Who did you see in the room you were taken to?

5 A. In the room to which I was taken I saw then Dule Tadic, Duca.

6 There was one Kevic from Orlovci. There was a guy whom I didn't know, but

7 they addressed him as Babic. And that would be it.

8 Q. And did you -- why did you greet them the Serb way?

9 A. You had to do it. I did, since I had grown up amongst the Serbs,

10 I knew the Serb greeting which my former neighbours used, and I was never

11 ashamed of that. So it wasn't difficult for me to say, "God help you."

12 But they wanted me to say, "God help heroes," because that is the Chetnik

13 greeting.

14 Q. Did you finish to greet them the Serb way?

15 A. No sooner did I finish that, I was -- that I was already hit, and

16 a noose was put around my neck and I found myself on the floor. I was

17 falling down.

18 Q. Were you beaten?

19 A. Yes, sure. They went on beating me. I couldn't let out a sound;

20 I merely tried gasping for breath, because they would tighten that noose.

21 If I opened my mouth, they would say, "Hit him again. He is still

22 alive." And they just went on.

23 Q. Which part of your body were you hit?

24 A. I was hit all over, except this left side, because somehow,

25 fortunately, I had fallen on my stomach, so they hit me here in the ribs.

Page 4662

1 They broke my ribs here. My skin split on the back because of the blows.

2 I was bleeding and my skin was cut. I had wounds there and it crusted

3 later on. They beat me all over except on the head.

4 Q. What did they use to beat you?

5 A. Well, from what we could see, because the passage was lit, so that

6 we could see all the props that they had. And they had a baseball bat.

7 They also had a whip made of a cable with some metal balls on it. They

8 had some metal rods. They had quite an array of props.

9 Q. Can you tell us approximately how long did the beating last?

10 A. Well, you see, how long, I really wouldn't know. I do not think

11 anybody knew how long he was beaten.

12 Q. Did you lose your consciousness?

13 A. Yes, I must have, because I had no oxygen. When they were

14 throwing me out from that room to the adjacent room to which I had been

15 taken first when I got off the bus, then I came to and I could see that

16 they had brought me into that room and thrown me over my colleagues who

17 had been beaten before me.

18 Q. When did you gain consciousness?

19 A. During that night I came to, I regained my consciousness several

20 times, but practically I regained my consciousness fully in the morning,

21 when the guards came to check how many of us were in the room, how many of

22 us were dead, I guess, so that they would take us out. At that time I was

23 conscious 100 per cent.

24 Q. How many prisoners could you approximately see in that room?

25 A. Well, say, there, in that position, I was lying among men who were

Page 4663

1 motionless. I do not know if they were dead but they did not move. Since

2 I was lying on my back, I could see that next to the walls of the room,

3 there were several, five or six, men who were leaning with their backs

4 against the wall. But they all kept silent. Everybody was silent.

5 Nobody was saying anything after all that we had gone through.

6 Q. Did any guard come into the room?

7 A. Yes. One of them came in and stepped on us, trampled across us,

8 that is, those who were closest to the door. And then he put his foot on

9 me and I moaned, and he said, "Ha, look, this one's alive, but not for

10 long, though."

11 Q. What happened to the other prisoners?

12 A. Well, those who did not move were taken out after awhile by those

13 inmates who were brought to take them out in front of the "white house."

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Just a moment, Mr. Piacente.

15 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Piacente. Sorry.


18 Q. Also at that location, did you see at other times during your

19 confinement in Omarska bodies lying down outside the "white house"?

20 A. Yes. For instance, in front of the "white house," I did not see

21 because, I will tell the truth, I could not see the area in front of the

22 "white house," considering the room that I was in. But on other nights,

23 I saw men who had been beaten, put in the same room that I had been in and

24 then being taken away the next morning from that room in front of the

25 "white house."

Page 4664

1 Q. How long did you stay in the "white house"?

2 A. I think not more than five days.

3 Q. Then what happened to you?

4 A. And then on one occasion, for instance, the guards could not stand

5 it because there was such a stench in the "white house," in that room, so

6 that they had to take us. Those who were healthy walked out, and I could

7 not walk so they took me out from the "white house" and left me there in

8 front of it so that the room could be washed.

9 Some friends happened to see me there on the grass in front of the

10 "white house," and they organised a ransom, or at least -- I mean, people

11 were resorting to all sorts of means. They paid the guard to get me out

12 of the "white house" so that if I had to die, that I could at least die

13 next to my brother in another room or with my friends beside me.

14 Q. Did you receive any medical assistance after your beating and

15 during your confinement in Omarska?

16 A. No. Gentlemen, I wasn't even given a sip of water in the "white

17 house," except only once, and I had to drink from some old, black bucket

18 which was used by those who were healthy to urinate. Excuse me for the

19 expression. But you drink this because if you don't do it, then you'll

20 die anyway.

21 Q. Have you ever known Sefik Sivac?

22 A. Sefik Sivac, yes, I knew him. He was a distant relative and a

23 friend, and we had worked together abroad. I also helped him with advice

24 when he built his two restaurants. We grew up together, simply.

25 Q. Was he also confined in Omarska?

Page 4665

1 A. Yes. Yes, he was detained in Omarska.

2 Q. What happened to him?

3 A. Well, one evening he was brought -- thrown into the room, across

4 my -- he fell on my legs, and he died during that night. In the morning,

5 they took him out and he was dead. But he was found subsequently in a

6 hole somewhere and was identified.

7 Q. Do you know what Petrovdan is?

8 A. Yes. St. Peter's Day, Petrovdan, everybody knows it. All the

9 Serbs know it. I think that is one of their important holidays. I marked

10 it with my peers. I used to mark it with my peers and we always looked

11 forward to every St. Peter's Day.

12 Q. Was it celebrated during your confinement in Omarska?

13 A. Well, yes, for the most part. I didn't celebrate it because I

14 experienced some horrific things then. But the Serbs did mark it, did

15 celebrate it. Not fully but to a certain measure, yes.

16 Q. How did the Serbs celebrate Petrovdan?

17 A. Let me try and explain this to you. All Serbs know that on the

18 eve of Petrovdan, bonfires are made, fires are made, and I would do that

19 too when I was a boy. I would light a stick and run along the road and

20 that kind of thing. The bigger the fire, the bonfire, the better. That

21 is how the eve of Petrovdan, the 12th of July, is always celebrated. And

22 the date is always the same; it doesn't change, as far as I know.

23 Q. How did the Serbs celebrate Petrovdan in Omarska, or the eve of

24 Petrovdan in Omarska?

25 A. I was still in the end room, and towards evening a big fire was

Page 4666

1 made in front of the "white house," was lit from the tyres, from the

2 dumper tyres. You know that if you light rubber, the rubber has a

3 stench. When they opened the window in this end room, the smell of the

4 burning rubber came in through the window and almost suffocated us. So we

5 had this smell of burning rubber in the "white house," in the premises

6 that I was in.

7 Q. Did the Serbs say anything to the prisoners?

8 A. At the time, the Serbs, on the eve of Petrovdan, had a real,

9 all-out sort of manifestation rally of civilians and guards. Everybody

10 who was there, they would all walk down the corridors. As night began to

11 fall, they started to take the people out of the first rooms. Nobody was

12 taken out of my room, but we did hear others being taken out. We heard

13 swearing. While they were walking up and down the corridors, they would

14 say, "It will all be --" "Your turn will come too."

15 Q. What did you hear after some prisoners were taken out?

16 A. I remember that, and I'll remember it for the rest of my life, the

17 cries of women who were outside or in the first room. I'll never forget

18 their cries and screams. Then I smelt the stench of burning meat. You

19 know when meat begins to burn, it has a specific smell, and this smell of

20 burning flesh was mixed with the smell of the burning rubber from the

21 tyres.

22 Q. Were you told whether prisoners were thrown into the fires?

23 A. Afterwards, I heard about this. I didn't see it and I can't claim

24 that. But I did hear that some of the prisoners were burnt at the stake

25 on the eve of Petrovdan.

Page 4667

1 Q. Let me ask you two more questions before we move to another

2 matter. You said that on your way to the interrogation room someone

3 stabbed you, or, at least, you were not wounded because your belt

4 protected you. Did you identify this person?

5 A. Yes. When I had to go to have my meal, which was given out once a

6 day at Omarska, I saw the same man who was always sitting down in the

7 chair. He seemed to be attached to the chair; he was always there,

8 sitting in front of the "white house." And he was always playing around

9 with a knife.

10 Q. Did you ever know his name or his identity?

11 A. I learnt that his surname was Kvocka, and I remembered him very

12 well.

13 Q. To your knowledge, did this person have other relatives in the

14 camp?

15 A. I heard tell that he had a brother in the camp. But at the time,

16 while I was in the camp, he was allegedly not there. Although, people

17 said that he would come by from time to time, but I didn't see him. So I

18 cannot claim that I know the individual, that other person, that is to

19 say, his brother.

20 Q. What was the position of the one who stabbed you or tried to stab

21 you?

22 A. I think he was a guard in front of the "white house." Whether he

23 was the leader of a shift or not, I don't know. A lot of time has gone

24 by, and I didn't really know. I didn't ask around. When I felt better

25 later on, thank God some journalists came to the camp and transferred us

Page 4668

1 to Manjaca.

2 Q. What was the position of the brother of this person?

3 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Krstan Simic.

5 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, according to the

6 indictment, the time linked to Mr. Kvocka is the 30th of June. The

7 witness said that he never saw the man, he didn't speak to him or about

8 him, and I do not see where this line of questioning is leading to, and

9 that it is irrelevant -- and that it is at all relevant to the

10 examination-in-chief of this witness.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Piacente.

12 MR. PIACENTE: Well, Your Honour, I would have directly asked to

13 the witness whether one of the accused today tried to stab him, and I know

14 that he would say no, but I didn't want to ask a leading question. So

15 that's why I was trying to specify through the questions, through his

16 answers, that it was not the current accused who tried to stab him, but it

17 was another one. And if I am allowed, I can ask him directly so that we

18 can spare our time.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I have a reply. Yes, Mr. Krstan

20 Simic.

21 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the question can be

22 easily formulated: Is the man who tried to stab you in this courtroom?

23 That would be a simple question, and not to ask questions about a man whom

24 the gentleman did not mention, said he had seen, or had any information

25 about him.

Page 4669

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Piacente, ask a direct

2 question, please.


4 Q. Was Miroslav Kvocka the one who stabbed you?

5 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Krstan Simic.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Mr. Simic. Microphone,

8 please.

9 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. Yes.

10 The witness at no point mentioned the name Miroslav Kvocka. He

11 mentioned Kvocka. And this question has not been asked in the correct

12 manner, in the proper manner.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Piacente. What do you

14 have to say? Would you like to respond?

15 MR. PIACENTE: I can easily withdraw the question and ask the

16 witness as the Defence counsel suggested.

17 Q. Can you see anybody in this courtroom you would identify as the

18 person who tried to stab you?

19 A. No, gentlemen. The man who wanted to stab me with his knife was

20 bald. That is to say, he did not have any hair.

21 MR. PIACENTE: We can pass to another matter.

22 Q. Going back to Petrovdan, can you specify whether, to your

23 knowledge, the prisoners were burned at stake or thrown into the fire?

24 A. Let me put it this way: I heard from other people afterwards that

25 some of the prisoners were burnt. And I can mention a name, Azur

Page 4670

1 Jakupovic, who disappeared. And another girl, they said that she was

2 burnt too. Whether any other people were burnt, I don't know. I didn't

3 see it and I don't want to lie. I don't want to accuse anybody of doing

4 anything they did not do.

5 Q. Did you see Krkan the eve of Petrovdan?

6 A. Yes, I did see Krkan earlier on, while they were stoking the

7 fire. They were all going up and down that day in the Omarska camp, up

8 and down the corridor, the passageways, but we didn't pay much attention,

9 because, you know, sometimes it's better not to look too much.

10 Q. Did you know Krkan before your arrival in Omarska?

11 A. No, I did not know him before.

12 Q. Have you ever seen him after you were released from Omarska?

13 A. No, I did not see him afterwards either, because I went abroad,

14 and I didn't return.

15 Q. Have you ever seen him on TV or read in the newspapers?

16 A. No, I never had occasion to see him on television, neither did I

17 read the newspapers that I could come across Mr. Krkan's name in them.

18 Q. Can you describe him?

19 A. At that time, on that particular day, and during the time that I

20 met him, I can describe the man who was guilty of breaking my ribs, who

21 was responsible for breaking my ribs and probably for beating up all my

22 co-travellers from the bus we travelled in.

23 Q. So can you tell us how tall was he at the time?

24 A. I think he was about my own height, but he was far fatter. He was

25 strongly built. He had this air of authority about him. And he was

Page 4671

1 calm. He was a cool character, somebody who knew what he was doing.

2 Q. Can you describe us the colour of his hair and whether he had a

3 moustache or a beard?

4 A. He did not have a beard or moustache. As to his hair at the time,

5 I don't think he was as dark as Zigic was. He was more brown-haired. He

6 wasn't as dark. He was not as dark. But that's as far as I can describe

7 him.

8 Q. Would you be able to identify him today, after eight years?

9 A. I can do the same as in Zigic's case. I can try to say whether

10 that is the man or not, because he has -- his image has become imprinted

11 in my memory and I don't think I'll ever forget his face and the

12 repercussions of his actions, my rheumatism and everything else I suffer

13 for. And I don't need any weather forecast to tell me when the weather is

14 changing. I feel it in my bones.

15 Q. So can you give a look around and say whether you can identify

16 somebody sitting in this courtroom as the man known to you as Krkan?

17 MR. PIACENTE: And with the permission of the Tribunal, if he

18 needs, can the witness stand up so that he can look better?

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, the witness may stand up to

20 have a better view.

21 A. In my opinion -- shall I sit down again? In my opinion, it is my

22 feeling about this that I'm certain 100 per cent that the only person in

23 this room who could be Mr. Krkan is the man wearing a black suit, sitting

24 in the back row, the first next to that policeman over there, on my

25 left-hand side.

Page 4672

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness, just wait one moment.

2 I'm going to ask the accused to take their headsets off, if they would be

3 so kind as to oblige, and to stand up.

4 Witness, have you had a good look?

5 A. Yes. I can see well.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. The accused may be

7 seated again. Thank you for getting up.

8 Please continue.

9 MR. PIACENTE: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. Do you confirm your identification after you have seen the accused

11 stand up?

12 A. I am sure that the second -- that it can be no other person in

13 this room other than the one I have described, that Mr. Krkan is the one I

14 described, that it is him, and I am certain 100 per cent. The only thing

15 is that he has changed with respect to weight.

16 MR. PIACENTE: For the record, the identification has been

17 positive.

18 Q. You already described the impact that the injuries you suffered

19 from that beating had on you. Are you still suffering pains or any other

20 disease after that beating?

21 A. Yes, I still suffer, and I don't think it will ever go away. I

22 have pain in my ribs and in my bones whenever the weather changes and I

23 always -- and I suffer from headaches. I never used to have headaches

24 before, but I do now; once again, when there is a change in the weather.

25 Q. What about your rib cage?

Page 4673

1 A. Well, my ribs have healed. I had no medical aid given me in

2 Omarska or Manjaca. There was a detainee who was a doctor there, and he

3 would give us a certain amount of tablets, painkillers, and thanks to the

4 International Red Cross as well. But that was very little and it came too

5 late for me to receive proper therapy and treatment and to have my rib

6 cage set properly again. That would require an operation. So my rib cage

7 has been distorted and it is not something that can be treated anymore.

8 Q. From what you said, I understand that after Omarska you were

9 transferred to Manjaca. Is that correct?

10 A. Yes, that's correct.

11 MR. PIACENTE: No more questions for the moment, Your Honour.

12 Thanks.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you very much,

14 Mr. Piacente.

15 Mr. Krstan Simic, what is the order of questioning from the

16 Defence teams?

17 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, three Defence teams

18 will be putting their questions to the witness. We will have Mr. Radic's

19 Defence, Mr. Kos' Defence, followed by Mr. Zigic's Defence. The Defence

20 of Mr. Kvocka and Prcac do not have questions of this witness. Thank you.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you very much

22 for already putting the Defence counsel in place. I now give the floor to

23 Mr. Jovanovic, who will begin.

24 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Cross-examined by Mr. Jovanovic:

Page 4674

1 Q. Mr. Icic, good morning to you.

2 A. Good morning.

3 Q. As you have already heard, my name is Zoran Jovanovic. I'm an

4 attorney from Belgrade, and together with my colleague, Mr. Toma Fila, I

5 represent the accused, Mr. Mlado Radic, Krkan.

6 Mr. Icic, you described how you were brought from Keraterm to

7 Omarska.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You came by bus?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you remember, because you said that the bus was full, anybody

12 else from the bus? Did you know anybody else who was on the bus?

13 A. Yes, I did.

14 Q. Could you tell me the names and surnames of the individuals you

15 knew?

16 A. In the bus I just knew one man from Kozarac. He was a Muslim,

17 Poljak Samir, and that young man survived, but unfortunately I have never

18 had any contacts with him yet after the camp.

19 Q. Very well. I was just interested in knowing the names and

20 surnames of the people you remember.

21 A. He is the only person I can remember. I did not know the others.

22 Q. When the bus arrived, you said that you got off the bus. How many

23 people were in the cordon between the bus and the "white house"?

24 A. I always tell the truth, and I'm going to tell the truth now. I

25 didn't count the number of people, nor could any of us have counted the

Page 4675

1 people. All I can say is that there were a lot of people. There was a

2 long cordon stretching right from the bus to the entrance into the "white

3 house."

4 Q. Could you tell me perhaps or show me where the bus stopped?

5 A. I can tell you that the bus stopped on the path in front of the

6 grassy patch in front of the "white house" where there were some concrete

7 flower pots. He was on the concrete, a few metres away, so that we had to

8 run from the bus towards the "white house."

9 Q. Your assessment, please. Can you give us an assessment? You say

10 a lot of people. What would that be?

11 A. Well, a lot of people on both sides. I said earlier on, there

12 were a lot of people. There were so many people that they got in each

13 other's way when they were beating us.

14 Q. You mean there were a lot of people?

15 A. Yes, a great many people.

16 Q. You said that Hajra Hodzic went in and told you about Krkan, that

17 lady.

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 Q. Where did this take place?

20 A. She entered that second room after the interrogation, and she

21 said, "I've been here for quite some time. Don't ask anybody for any

22 help. It's no use here." She advised us as to how we should behave in

23 the camp.

24 Q. Did she say anything about Krkan's shift at the time?

25 A. Yes, she did. She said that Krkan's shift was the worst shift in

Page 4676

1 Omarska.

2 Q. On that occasion?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Mr. Icic, I should now like to remind you of something. You

5 said -- that is to say, you have already been to this Tribunal.

6 A. Yes, that's right.

7 Q. During another trial against the accused Dusko Tadic.

8 A. Yes, that's right.

9 Q. Do you remember what you said at the time, and that you said that

10 under oath?

11 A. Yes, I do remember. I remember what I said, and I will always

12 tell the truth. I will always say it again, I'll repeat it.

13 Q. Did you tell the truth then?

14 A. Yes, I told the truth.

15 Q. If I may, I should like to remind you of something you said on

16 that occasion, and my question is based on that; that is to say, I'd like

17 to ask you to explain the differences, if you note the differences

18 yourself, with respect to what you said then and what you said today.

19 A. Yes, I'll be happy to.

20 Q. Since your arrival in Omarska by bus, from that time on, you were

21 asked: "The soldiers or guards or other Serb forces, were they already

22 waiting for you to arrive, for your arrival, when the bus arrived?"

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And your answer was, "Yes." Then some other questions were asked

25 of you. "Where did the bus stop?"

Page 4677

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And you said, "In the space between the canteen or dining room."

3 A. Yes. That is the concrete space, the concrete area. It is

4 between the dining room and the canteen and the "red house" and the "white

5 house."

6 Q. The next question, it wasn't in this order but I'd just like to

7 highlight that next question to you, "How were the prisoners called out to

8 get out of the bus?"

9 A. The prisoners were called out on the basis of the list that was

10 brought from Keraterm.

11 Q. Did you walk quickly? Did you run?

12 A. Well, when each of us was called out, we ran so that we could get

13 into the "white house" as quickly as possible, because if you went slowly,

14 you'd be beaten more. So that's quite logical.

15 Q. So from there you went to the "white house"?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And that was the context in which this question was asked.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. The question is the following: "And then later on, somebody else

20 came into the room." Your answer was "Yes." The next question was, "Who

21 was that person?" and your answer was "Krkan." Then the next question

22 was, "Did you know at the time who Krkan was?" and your answer was "No."

23 A. And I did not know at that time. When Krkan was in the corridor

24 and when he called us out from the bus, I didn't know who he was. I still

25 maintain that. I am speaking the truth.

Page 4678













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14 and French transcripts.












Page 4679

1 Q. Was that the first time you saw Krkan?

2 A. Yes. I saw him in the bus for the first time, on the steps of the

3 bus, beside the driver, when he entered the bus.

4 Q. Why did you not say that earlier on?

5 A. Well, I'll explain that to you. I answered the questions as they

6 were posed. And I was asked to be brief, just to give brief answers of

7 yes or no, and if necessary, to explain things in great -- if I'm asked to

8 explain things in greater detail, then I'll do so. So if you ask me today

9 to give more elaborate explanations, I will be happy to do so.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Keegan.

11 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour. I'm reluctant to object during

12 examination, but it appears from a review of the transcript that, in fact,

13 this counsel is misleading the witness as to what that transcript says.

14 There does not appear to be any inconsistency in the story. The

15 transcript indicates after they came back, then this incident with Krkan

16 happened. So I believe, in fact, this is a misrepresentation of the facts

17 in the transcript.

18 I would ask that if counsel is going to refer to a transcript,

19 before he asks a question, he cite the page and the line so that, indeed,

20 we can make an objection at the appropriate time, which would be before

21 the question is put to the witness. Thank you.

22 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] It is page 9 of the transcript in

23 B/C/S. So my question was, and then somebody -- "Later on, did someone

24 come into the room?" And that is line 4.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's comment: Page 2833, line 6.

Page 4680

1 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] "And later on, did someone ..." I

2 think there is a difference. I shall continue with the same set of

3 questions, if I may.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Keegan, are you satisfied?

5 Have you found it?

6 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour. We had the reference before, we

7 had found it. The point was, I would have objected before, because we're

8 now three or four questions down from where I believe the question

9 actually began, the misrepresentation started, and I would have objected

10 then had I been given the citation right away.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Jovanovic,

12 please move on.

13 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. The question was, "Had you heard about Krkan from any other

15 detainees in the 'white house' that day, and how did you learn about

16 that?" You also said on that occasion that it was Hajra Hodzic who told

17 you, or rather that she had told someone else and that that was how you

18 learned it.

19 A. Yes, that is the truth.

20 Q. After that, the question that had to do with his position and

21 office, you said that he was the head of the guard shift or the commander

22 of the guards.

23 A. That was my assumption, my guess. What function he had or what he

24 does today, I do not know.

25 Q. The next question was, "Did Krkan bring anything with him?" and

Page 4681

1 you answered, "Yes, --"

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. "-- he brought a clean piece of paper and a pencil."

4 A. He did.

5 Q. Was that the first time that you saw Krkan in the "white house"?

6 A. It was the third time I saw Krkan, because he was the one who

7 called our names in the bus.

8 Q. No. I'm asking about the "white house."

9 A. Yes. In the "white house" -- no, because he was the one who was

10 calling us out for interrogation. And the third time, he came with this

11 sheet of paper for us to write down our names.

12 Q. You then explained what you were to do with this sheet of paper

13 and pencil.

14 A. Yes, he did.

15 Q. But you did not tell us about the previous roll-call from the list

16 that he had with him.

17 A. Well, nobody asked me about that. If you do, then I'll explain

18 it. If somebody asks for it, whatever I'm asked to say, I will say. If

19 you do not ask me, if you do not ask a question, then I just tell you the

20 truth and otherwise keep my mouth shut.

21 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour. I wanted to wait until

22 Mr. Jovanovic had the opportunity to finish the question so I could fully

23 understand what he is attempting to do, and I believe in fact he is

24 misrepresenting the facts of the prior testimony. It appears he's

25 attempting to use the prior testimony to somehow impeach the witness'

Page 4682

1 testimony today. But what he has not made clear, and that again is the

2 danger of this, is he didn't start off by indicating that, in fact, the

3 transcript in the Tadic case jumped from event to event and not

4 necessarily in the proper sequence. Because when he spoke of Hajra

5 Hodzic, he admitted the opening phrase within that answer which said, "At

6 the time before anybody tortured us, this woman came in and told us,"

7 which is entirely consistent with what he said today. But previous to

8 that, counsel in the Tadic case had talked about the interrogation. He

9 had not gone in the order of events.

10 Counsel today is attempting to use the transcript, and by phrasing

11 his questions in a certain way, he is trying to mislead the evidence given

12 on that day. Again, this is the problem of using prior transcripts if

13 either the transcript is not going to be admitted so the Chamber can judge

14 that for themselves, or if counsel are not clear with what they intend to

15 do with these questions. Because it is unfair to the witness to try and

16 use this transcript by not representing the full questioning and try to

17 confuse him and somehow try to impeach him. So we would object to this

18 line of questioning.

19 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm reading the transcript.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me. The interpretation

21 into French was not finished yet, so I had to wait for it.

22 Yes, Mr. Jovanovic.

23 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I am quoting from the transcript

24 of the proceedings against the accused Tadic, and I did not understand

25 that the objection of the Prosecutor was that I was reading it wrongly or

Page 4683

1 misinterpreting it. All the questions that were put to the witness then,

2 I simply read them as they are indicated in the transcript, and the same

3 relates to answers.

4 In the beginning of my cross-examination, I already said that I

5 would be pointing out to the witness the discrepancies that exist only

6 with a view to having him explain these discrepancies, and he has already

7 explained it. He said that nobody asked him certain things at that time.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Keegan.

9 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour. I am exactly objecting to the way

10 that this transcript is being read and being interpreted, because he is

11 selectively reading parts of answers. The minimum proper procedure would

12 be to read the question and the full answer, which would at least be less

13 misleading. He's put on this -- at the beginning of his question, he's

14 said, "There are contradictions." Well, that is a presumption or

15 conclusion of counsel, not a fact. By stating that in the beginning and

16 then selectively reading from the transcript rather than discussing fully

17 the events, he is in fact attempting to confuse and mislead the witness

18 and this Bench. That is exactly the nature of our objection.

19 The witness already indicated he answered the questions that were

20 asked on that day, just as he did today. He didn't answer things that he

21 wasn't asked, and he tried to answer those questions that were asked.

22 It's clear from the reading of this transcript that the events were

23 addressed in a different order, not chronologically.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Could you slow down, Mr. Keegan, please.

25 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, sorry. Therefore, we think this is a misleading

Page 4684

1 and improper cross-examination.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. Jovanovic, could you

3 please put your question as follows: Today you told us that. In the

4 transcript you said that. Now, which is the correct version? Could you

5 phrase your question in that manner? I think it will be much more clear

6 for the witness.

7 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, of course, Your Honour. That

8 was my intention.

9 Q. Mr. Icic, how were you examined in the Tadic case in 1996 and

10 now? Is there any difference?

11 A. Well, I think there is a certain difference. I mean, every man

12 has his own method. But basically, the substance of the events and the

13 time when they happened -- I mean, when I say one thing and they take me

14 back to what happened before, it doesn't really matter, because I cannot

15 change the events as they occurred, no matter how you ask me.

16 Q. Right. But today you told us that two people who were in that

17 room, Hajra Hodzic had said who Krkan was and warned about his shift?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. In the proceedings against the accused Dusko Tadic, that is, page

20 24 of the transcript, line 12 in the B/C/S version, you said: "At that

21 time when I was in Omarska, I learnt only after I had left the 'white

22 house' that Krkan's shift was one of the worst." Now, which is the

23 correct version?

24 A. Both are correct, because from Hajra Hodzic I learned that day

25 that Krkan's shift was the worst, and only at a later stage did I learn

Page 4685

1 that Krkan was indeed the man who was always there and who always was in

2 command when I went through what I did go through. That is, the event is

3 the same. Perhaps you can change a certain sequence, but --

4 Q. No, no, no. I only asked you to explain to me the discrepancies,

5 nothing else.

6 A. No, but the impression they are getting --

7 Q. Never mind. Let us leave aside the transcript for a moment, and I

8 will ask you certain things about what you told us when examined in

9 chief.

10 When did you arrive? What time of the day was it when you arrived

11 in Omarska?

12 A. Omarska? I don't know what time it was. I know it was the

13 morning, but what time it was, I don't know.

14 Q. No. Before noon is quite enough. Thank you. And the incidents

15 that you described in the "white house," when did they happen?

16 A. You mean the beatings?

17 Q. Yes.

18 A. Beatings took place in the evening, after the night fell.

19 Q. So it was already dark, was it?

20 A. Oh, yes, it was well into the night. They put up some improvised

21 lighting in the passage. I think that when I was beaten, it must have

22 been already past 10.00 or perhaps even 11.00.

23 Q. Is that what you are saying?

24 A. Yes. I think it was 10.00 or 11.00. I didn't have a watch, but

25 just so that you do not accuse me of saying whatever.

Page 4686

1 Q. Very well. Very well. Thank you. You told us that you were

2 unfortunately beaten and you explained the room that it happened in.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Could you please describe the room to us.

5 A. Yes, I can do that. It was a small room, as wide as the passage,

6 and I think it was about the same length too.

7 Q. In the Tadic case you described it in greater detail during the

8 cross-examination, so will you please do that again. What was the size of

9 the room exactly?

10 A. Well, I remember it very well. The Defence counsel insisted on my

11 admitting that it was the bathroom. I still insist that it was not the

12 bathroom, that perhaps it was meant as a bathroom.

13 Q. The size. I'm asking about the size, not about the purpose.

14 A. Well, it could have been about 2.5 times 2.5 metres perhaps. Of

15 course, I didn't measure it with a metre, so I cannot say, but 2.5 by 2.5.

16 Q. Very well. How many men beat you on that occasion? You gave us

17 some names, but ...

18 A. Well, when I came, there were five men in there. Krkan had stayed

19 behind. He calls out names, but then he stays behind. And then the man

20 put that noose around my neck. Now, whether they beat me all or not, I

21 don't know. I did not feel it anymore.

22 Q. So you mean there were five men inside and you were the sixth?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Was there any room for anything?

25 A. You know, in Omarska, there wasn't room for anything anywhere, for

Page 4687

1 us to sit down or lie down properly, but it all took place according to

2 the plan. We were beaten, killed. Whether there was enough room, well

3 that -- because they had enough room for them. They found enough room for

4 them.

5 Q. Very well. Very well. Thank you. You also told us about the

6 religious holiday, Petrovdan, St. Peter's Day.

7 A. I did, yes.

8 Q. And you described it to us. But now I must ask you to be more

9 specific. What you told us before in that earlier trial, and today, is it

10 your indirect knowledge or is it something that you knew firsthand? That

11 is, there is a difference between what you saw and what you heard from

12 others.

13 A. What I saw, I could see the flash of light in the passage, because

14 the fire outside was lighting the passage. And I could smell tyres

15 burning and after that the burning flesh. But I did not see, and I am not

16 affirming that somebody was thrown into that fire.

17 Q. But you heard some women cry?

18 A. Yes, and I shall never forget it. From the first room --

19 Q. No, no, no. But you said that those women were from the first

20 room.

21 A. Some women were in the first room, but were those women crying

22 from the first room or --

23 Q. No, no, no. Just tell me how many women were there in the first

24 room and whether you know any one of them.

25 A. No. I did not go into the first room and I do not know how many

Page 4688

1 women there were and I'm not going to say that I do know that.

2 Q. But were they there when you arrived in the "white house"?

3 A. I did not see anyone to recognise, but there were women in the

4 first room to the right, as we ran into the house. But how many and who

5 was there, Hajra Hodzic unfortunately is already gone. Had she survived,

6 she would have been able to describe exactly what was going on there.

7 Q. But when you came to the "white house," did you see them or is it,

8 again, secondhand knowledge?

9 A. Well, at first glance, one could see, because the door was open.

10 But I shall tell you frankly: I did not see. I could just cast a

11 glance. But how many women were there in it and whether I saw anyone in

12 that first room in the "white house," I cannot really tell you. I'm not

13 saying that. And those cries could have been within the "white house,"

14 that is, that first room, or without the "white house." At any rate,

15 those were hair-raising screams.

16 Q. You told us about how that bonfire was being prepared.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And Krkan was present?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What time of the day was it?

21 A. Well, they were preparing the bonfire in late afternoon. There

22 was still some daylight. The night hadn't fallen yet.

23 Q. And the bonfire --

24 A. Well, you know, tyres go up in flames in no time at all.

25 Q. But when did you see it? When did you see the reflections of the

Page 4689

1 fire?

2 A. Well, you can see reflections from the fire only when the night

3 falls, when the darkness falls. By daytime you can't see it.

4 Q. So was it night?

5 A. Yes, it was already nighttime when I saw those reflections of the

6 fire.

7 Q. What time was it?

8 A. I don't know what time it was. I didn't have a watch.

9 Q. Mr. Icic, you wrote a text in your own hand.

10 A. No. I just wrote a note. It was a note. It's something I wrote

11 down so as not to forget. So it was something -- when I remembered

12 something, I simply noted it down, perhaps not necessarily in the normal

13 sequence.

14 Q. Yes. Sorry I have to interrupt you, but is the information there

15 correct?

16 A. There is certain information which I noted down which I had

17 heard. What I had heard, I do not claim that that is correct. And the

18 information, when I say that I know this and that is so, then that is so.

19 But it must say somewhere approximately that many men, because, you know,

20 you hear it from people who come out, because they were being executed --

21 Q. Now, I just want to know one thing, one thing that you noted down

22 here, and that is that on that occasion of St. Peter's Day, on Petrovdan,

23 in front of the "white house," they had piled up -- it is page 180 of the

24 text in B/C/S. In front of the "white house" they had piled up a number

25 of dumper tyres, poured some fuel, set them on fire, and then began to

Page 4690

1 beat people, and every beaten person who was still alive would end up in

2 the bonfire and would burn together with the tyres. And that evening,

3 according to others, they killed 250 people who were not guilty of

4 anything.

5 A. That is what I noted, but that was according to stories, and

6 stories can be anything. If I tell you a story that I heard from somebody

7 else, that is a different matter.

8 Q. What you are saying now, does it concern only the figure of 250 or

9 everything?

10 A. No. All that I heard, I do not claim that there were as many, but

11 you can check it on the basis of lists and from people who came to

12 Omarska, because they all arrived in Omarska on the basis of lists.

13 Nobody came outside those lists. And everybody knows how many men were

14 missing.

15 Q. Right. I'm going to ask you another thing, and far be it for me

16 to try to say that you are not telling the truth, but will you please tell

17 us: On that occasion when you wrote this down -- and I should like to

18 know the reason why you did that -- who advised you to write it down? And

19 also, in the Tadic case and today, are you telling the truth?

20 A. I am telling the truth and I shall always tell the truth.

21 Q. Thank you. Who advised you to write this down?

22 A. Nobody advised me to write this down, because this is not a

23 letter, it is not a book.

24 Q. But whose advice was it?

25 A. Nobody's advice. Let me tell you briefly: In Manjaca we had a

Page 4691

1 detainee --

2 Q. No, no, no. You don't have to go into that. Thank you. And once

3 again, will you please remember: Who advised you to write this down?

4 A. Yes, I know what you are telling me. I have a friend -- I had a

5 friend who said that he was a psychiatrist, but he wasn't, and he advised

6 me to write things down, and that was it.

7 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Jovanovic.

9 Yes, Mr. Nikolic.

10 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we do not have any

11 questions for this witness.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13 Mr. Stojanovic.

14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, we shall have

15 some questions.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please. How long

17 will you need, Mr. Stojanovic, more or less?

18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I should say not more than 20

19 minutes and not less than 10.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Then perhaps it

21 would be better to make a break now and then we shall come back for your

22 cross-examination. All right. A half-an-hour break.

23 --- Recess taken at 12.54 p.m.

24 --- On resuming at 1.36 p.m.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.

Page 4692

1 Before we begin the cross-examination which is going to be

2 conducted by Mr. Stojanovic, Mr. Jovan Simic, are you going to give us an

3 update on the health of Mr. Prcac? What has happened to him?

4 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Mr. Prcac has

5 been transferred to the Detention Unit, and the latest information that I

6 have received is that a doctor is seeing him. But I don't know any

7 details. We shall know more in about an hour's time. Round about 2.30 I

8 am going to call again to see how he is.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Was he seen by a doctor before

10 he left for the Detention Unit? Did a doctor examine him here before he

11 left the Tribunal?

12 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] As far as I know, no, but I cannot

13 claim that because that is the information that I received from one of the

14 guards. Thank you.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, was Mr. Prcac

16 seen by a physician before he left for the Detention Unit?

17 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. The usher actually brought the doctor to see

18 him.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. I can see that

20 Mr. Stojanovic and Mr. Tosic are in their proper places for the

21 cross-examination.

22 Mr. Stojanovic, your witness. You may begin.

23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, thank you.

24 Cross-examined by Mr. Stojanovic:

25 Q. Witness, Mr. Icic, let me introduce myself. My name is Slobodan

Page 4693

1 Stojanovic, attorney from Belgrade, and I have my colleague Mr. Simo

2 Tosic, from Banja Luka, here with me, and together we make up the Defence

3 team of Mr. Zigic at this trial.

4 You mentioned a detail concerning your brother, Zigic, and the

5 passport that was torn up, and then you said that your brother died. How

6 did your brother die?

7 A. Unfortunately, I don't know how my brother died. All I know is --

8 all I heard is that the Serbs organised a convoy of 250 people which left

9 from Trnopolje and disappeared at Vlasic, and nobody knows to the present

10 day.

11 Q. Yes, but this did not take place in Keraterm, did it?

12 A. No, he did not die in Keraterm.

13 Q. You also informed us that you were put up in Room number 2. Can

14 you tell us something in greater detail? Which part of the room?

15 A. I was in Room number 2, behind -- at the end of the room, along

16 the wall at the back.

17 Q. Can you tell us how large that room was? You don't have to give

18 us the exact surface area, but how large was it?

19 A. Well, it might have been 15 metres long. It used to be a

20 warehouse and then it was divided up with a wire. And I think that it was

21 almost that wide as well, approximately speaking, of course.

22 Q. Thank you. If I understood you correctly, on that same evening

23 Mr. Zigic called some people out, the evening you arrived.

24 A. Yes. That same evening he called out some people.

25 Q. Was he standing at the entrance?

Page 4694

1 A. Well, there is a certain order to these events. He first came by

2 car. He would arrive by car in front of the "white house," [as

3 interpreted] and then they did something in that first room. Whether he

4 did something or somebody else, but there was a crowd there. Then he came

5 in with a group of people. He rushed in, he stormed in, and then the

6 incident with the shooting occurred. Then people were called out and

7 there were blows, and then he would bring in cigarettes. So that's the

8 kind of thing that went on.

9 Q. Yes, thank you, you told us that. Do you happen to recall the

10 car? What type of car was it, the make, what it looked like?

11 A. You could see the car from the front. It was a Mercedes. I could

12 see the Mercedes star. It was rather dirty, dusty. But I think it was a

13 white Mercedes.

14 Q. At that time in the room, was there any lighting in the room that

15 you were in?

16 A. At that time in the room I was in, there was no lighting.

17 Q. How did you arrive at the conclusion that Zigic was the man

18 calling people out, that that was his name? How did you know that? How

19 did you learn that?

20 A. Well, I said that at the time, when he brought cigarettes in, he

21 introduced himself. He said, "Your Ziga won't let you have a hard time of

22 it." So he brought the cigarettes in.

23 Q. Was that incident with the cigarettes after the incident?

24 A. The cigarettes took place afterwards to calm us down when he

25 called us out, to make business of some kind.

Page 4695

1 Q. So afterwards you learnt that it was a man by that surname.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you personally see the beating of those people?

4 A. No, I did not see this personally. I don't want to lie. I heard

5 the blows but I didn't see them actually being administered.

6 Q. You mentioned a certain person of Albanian ethnicity who was the

7 owner of the Zvjezdas cafe. Did that incident take place the same evening

8 you arrived?

9 A. Let me explain this to you. There were two people in that room;

10 one of them was the owner, and he would be taken out and beaten, and then

11 there was another one as well. Whether they took him out the same night,

12 I don't know. I'm not 100 per cent sure. I don't think he was taken out

13 that same night.

14 Q. When was that?

15 A. The Zvjezdas person was taken out on the second night.

16 Q. We heard today that one person never returned after he was taken

17 out by -- called out by Zigic. In some earlier statements, and I'm sure

18 you will remember that you gave several statements --

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. -- there is another observation of that kind. It was the

21 statement of the 25th of July, 1994.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Stojanovic, perhaps you

23 should clarify which statement you mean. Tell the witness. Because we

24 spoke about the statement made during the Tadic trial. So in order to

25 help the witness understand which statement you mean, perhaps you should

Page 4696

1 be more precise.

2 Mr. Keegan.

3 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, sir, as long as he just doesn't mention the

4 actual place where the statement was taken. Just refer to it as the place

5 where he currently resides. Just so we don't get into any issues of

6 redactions, Your Honour. That's all.

7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. That will be sufficient.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Bear that in mind, please,

9 Mr. Stojanovic.

10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 Q. I'm going to read a portion of that sentence. "As far as I know,

12 two people did not return to the warehouse after Zigic maltreated them. I

13 saw their bodies personally a day later when I was allowed to go out to

14 the toilet. However, I cannot say whether they died as the result of

15 Zigic's maltreatment."

16 A. I claim that I did not see him kill them then, at that time. But

17 I do know that the person did not return and that the two men were there.

18 Q. Do you still maintain this statement: "I cannot state whether

19 they died as the result of Zigic's abuse"?

20 A. I cannot say because I didn't actually see him kill them.

21 Q. You also said that you know that a certain Milenko Zigic is the

22 uncle of Zoran Zigic. How do you happen to know this fact?

23 A. Well, let me put it this way: We all know each other. I don't

24 know if you come from Yugoslavia. I'm sure you know the mentality of our

25 people and that people know each other. It's different than here in the

Page 4697













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the English

14 and French transcripts.












Page 4698

1 West; everybody knows each other. So we know each other much better than

2 people do in the West.

3 Q. So from talks; is that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Through family and friends; is that correct?

6 A. Yes, that's right.

7 Q. You described your sufferings in a rather lengthy piece of

8 writing.

9 A. Yes. I did that -- I wrote that to help pass the time. It's not

10 a book; it's a sort of report or something like that.

11 Q. Am I incorrect in saying that you did not mention the incident

12 with Bahonjic in your report?

13 A. Well, I think that I did make a note of that, but if you didn't

14 find it in my writings -- I'm sure it must be there somewhere.

15 Q. Are you sure? Because I don't want to burden the Trial Chamber

16 with the whole material.

17 A. I am certain that there is mention made of Bahonjic. And let me

18 tell you that I wrote what I wrote and described some of the incidents.

19 They weren't in order of sequence, in order of events.

20 Q. Do you allow for the possibility that you mentioned the event but

21 didn't mention the name of Bahonjic?

22 A. I think that Bahonjic is definitely inside somewhere, that the

23 name is mentioned somewhere.

24 Q. In your previous statements, did you happen to mention that at the

25 same time a certain person called Duca would call people out and abuse

Page 4699

1 them?

2 A. Yes. Duca would do this every day, just like Mr. Zigic. He would

3 come to Keraterm every day. They were two groups. And for us inmates of

4 the camp, they instilled fear in us. They chilled our blood.

5 Q. Is that true of people from Room 2?

6 A. Yes, Room 2 and Room 1. They would go by at random. Sometimes

7 they would beat them together or one by one, but those two groups did the

8 same type of business, went about their business in the same way.

9 Q. We heard that this happened in the first two days after your

10 arrival.

11 A. Yes, that's correct, but it happened every day, except that I paid

12 more attention to it those first two days and wrote it down. But it

13 happened in Keraterm all the time, every day.

14 Q. So this was on the same day; both groups would work on the same

15 day?

16 A. Yes. Both groups were present on the same day. One group would

17 go to the other room, in front of the other room; the other group would

18 come to my room, our room. And we thought: Well, it's all over, they've

19 left. But they came back.

20 Q. Can we pinpoint the time, perhaps? Was this in the evening or

21 night or when?

22 A. These events, the shooting and everything else, everything -- the

23 selling of cigarettes, everything took place at night.

24 Q. It was dark?

25 A. Yes, it was dark.

Page 4700

1 Q. Did you hear from others that he was a taxi driver?

2 A. Well, yes. Your client perhaps knows. It was his best friend,

3 Jaroslic [phoen], who was together with me. I don't want to say anything

4 more. I'm sure he remembers him. And he was in the camp with me. He was

5 in three camps. I didn't mention him, but I would like to take advantage

6 of this opportunity, because he asked me, upon leaving, that I mention

7 him. And now I have been given the opportunity, I have mentioned his

8 name.

9 Q. In an earlier statement, you said -- did you hear that Zigic and

10 Duca had died?

11 A. Yes. We heard all sorts of stories. All sorts of stories were

12 bandied about, that they had gone to the battlefield and were killed

13 there. People said lots of things. There were different stories going

14 around.

15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just one moment, if

16 I may. I think that there has been an error in the transcript, that Zigic

17 came to in front of the "white house." This referred to Keraterm and it

18 was Room number 2. So could we put that right through the question. The

19 witness' answer was yes. So there was an error.

20 A. No, I did not see him in front of the "white house."

21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. We have

22 no further questions, but we should like to tender some documents into

23 evidence. They are documents which refer to the previous identification

24 conducted by the Prosecution. There are two documents. One is a

25 corrected list. Would you like me to identify them on the basis of their

Page 4701

1 date? But I would like to tender both documents and to note that it says

2 that this witness was not able to identify Mr. Zigic on the basis of the

3 photo display.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Stojanovic, I don't see the

5 use you have made of these documents during the cross-examination. You

6 did not refer to those documents during the cross-examination. Did you or

7 did you not? Did you bring them up?

8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, I didn't, Your Honour, but I

9 think that this is a specific piece of evidence which we can tender

10 afterwards.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You can ask the question, and

12 you should ask the question, because a document can -- here we have a

13 document and we don't know why. Just go ahead and ask your question.

14 Mr. Keegan.

15 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour. I was waiting to hear the full

16 explanation before I objected, but could we also see what he's referring

17 to so we have some idea what he's going to show the witness first?

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Stojanovic.

19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, of course. I just have

20 these two copies in English. And if I may, Your Honour, in thanking you

21 for your assistance, I should like to ask the witness whether previously,

22 on the part of the Prosecution, he was interviewed with respect to the

23 photo board and the identification of Mr. Zigic.

24 A. I know that on one occasion -- I don't remember 100 per cent which

25 team came to me, but they asked me whether I would be willing to identify

Page 4702

1 somebody on the basis of photographs. I said, "Well, you know what,

2 photographs are very tricky business, and I don't want to accuse somebody

3 who is innocent, because photographs can change. People change from one

4 day to the next, and photographs very often are very different."

5 Q. Did you accept this procedure and did you, nonetheless, take a

6 look at those photographs?

7 A. Yes. I looked at the pictures on the table, but I didn't want to

8 say. Quite simply, I didn't want to say who was who, because I explained

9 to them that pictures for me are very tricky business and they can change,

10 just like people change in a year's time. Somebody looks quite different

11 from one year to the next, especially on a picture.

12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that this is

13 sufficient introduction for us to be able now to tender the documents.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Stojanovic, I wasn't

15 thinking of allowing you to admit the document. I wanted you to use the

16 document to ask the questions. And once we -- you ask the questions, we

17 don't need the document anymore.

18 Mr. Keegan, I think that you would like to communicate something

19 to us.

20 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, I was just going to indicate that we

21 first want to hand them back in case you wanted to show them to the

22 witness, but we have the standing objection to the summary report which we

23 prepared as an aide-memoire for the Defence. The report itself, if it's

24 going to be used, should at least be shown to the witness. Although it's

25 in English, he could at least identify potentially that these are the

Page 4703

1 photographs he was shown. But indeed the information has been elicited,

2 which is that, as indicated, he looked at the photograph for a minute and

3 said, "I cannot say anything just from the pictures," so which I think is

4 the information already elicited.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. I think that the witness

6 has already stated, "Yes, I was shown a series of photos," but that he

7 didn't want to risk incriminating anybody without being certain that it

8 was them.

9 Have you got any more points on this, Mr. Stojanovic? Because

10 that's the end of the story. We don't need the document.

11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I accept

12 completely what you said and Mr. Keegan interpreted this in the proper

13 way. And I think that we all agree. The witness was there. So thank you

14 very much to you, Your Honours, and to the witness.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you,

16 Mr. Stojanovic.

17 Mr. Keegan, any additional questions? I don't know if any other

18 Defence counsel wishes to put any questions to the witness.

19 Mr. Piacente, perhaps. I do apologise, Mr. Piacente. Do you have

20 any further questions? Mr. Piacente, any further additional questions?

21 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour. I just want to clear up, are any

22 other counsel going to cross-examine?

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I don't think so. Mr. Krstan

24 Simic announced Mr. Fila, Mr. Kos. Mr. Nikolic said he wouldn't be asking

25 any questions, and so we finished up with Mr. Stojanovic. Is that not

Page 4704

1 right?

2 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there are no further

3 questions from the other Defence teams.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

5 Mr. Piacente, any additional questions from you?

6 MR. PIACENTE: A few only, Your Honours. Thanks.

7 Re-examined by Mr. Piacente:

8 Q. Mr. Icic, going back to the Albanian prisoner and Emsud, did you

9 hear Zigic call them out?

10 A. Yes. Yes. I did hear him being called out.

11 Q. Did you see them take out -- being taken out?

12 A. Yes. The Albanian went out.

13 Q. And Emsud?

14 A. They took Emsud out too because he wasn't capable of walking on

15 his own two feet.

16 Q. Could you hear sounds of blows and screams after they were taken

17 out, called out?

18 A. Yes, yes, because there was general silence and then you could

19 hear that. Yes, I heard them.

20 Q. Only Emsud was taken back to Room number 2; correct?

21 A. Yes, they took Emsud back at that time, just in front of the

22 door. And then his friends took him back to his old place where he had

23 been before.

24 Q. Did you see the corpse of the Albanian?

25 A. I saw the bodies on the heap a little further off from the

Page 4705

1 building. But whether it was the body of the Albanian there or somebody

2 else's body, I cannot say for certain.

3 Q. After the night or the day the Albanian was called out, you didn't

4 see him any more?

5 A. No, I didn't see him any more.

6 MR. PIACENTE: No more questions. Thank you, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

8 Mr. Piacente.

9 Judge Fouad Riad, any questions?

10 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

11 Questioned by the Court:

12 JUDGE RIAD: Good morning, Mr. Icic.

13 A. Good morning.

14 JUDGE RIAD: I have a few clarifications to ask you to visualise

15 more your experience, your sad experience in the camps. I'll start from

16 the end because it's more present now in your mind, when the Defence

17 lawyers cross-examined you.

18 First, the last one was Mr. Stojanovic speaking about -- defending

19 Zigic, and he said that two men were taken out by Mr. Zigic and did not

20 return afterwards and you saw them dead afterwards. But you cannot affirm

21 that they died as a result of Zigic's maltreatment. Now, did you see them

22 maltreated by Zigic or just taken out by Zigic?

23 A. No. I always claim that I didn't see Zigic kill them. That is

24 what I state. But I am sure that he called them out. Whether he beat

25 them there or somebody else beat them there, I didn't see that. I didn't

Page 4706

1 see what happened.

2 JUDGE RIAD: So in other circumstances, did you see Zigic himself

3 beating people?

4 A. No. The circumstances when Zigic beat people was when he came

5 into a room and when he took potshots and when he hit my brother, and then

6 I saw him hitting directly. But when he took people out, we weren't able

7 to see, so I did not see him. I cannot say that other people didn't see,

8 but I myself didn't see him hit anybody outside. But you could hear the

9 sound of blows.

10 JUDGE RIAD: As soon as he took them out you could hear the blows?

11 A. Yes. When they went out -- as soon as they had gone out, you

12 could hear the blows and screams and cries and all the rest of it.

13 JUDGE RIAD: You spoke about Emsud Bahonjic, when he called him

14 out, and he was brought back and thrown, completely motionless --

15 A. Yes, yes.

16 JUDGE RIAD: -- and the other Albanian. You spoke of your

17 brother. Did your brother die?

18 A. Yes, my brother died but not --

19 JUDGE RIAD: I know, but did he die as a result of also being

20 called out?

21 A. No, no.

22 JUDGE RIAD: How did he die?

23 A. I have already explained. My brother was taken out from the

24 convoy at Vlasic, and that's where he died.

25 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you. Now, when Zigic went into the room and

Page 4707

1 shot and somebody was hurt by a ricochet, why did he do that? Was he

2 provoked by the people in the room? Was there any fighting, any revolt,

3 in your room?

4 A. No, no. Us prisoners never provoked anyone. Mr. Zigic, as soon

5 as he turned up at the door, he was already shouting and swearing. And

6 his speciality was to order us to draw back to the back wall where I was,

7 so we would all pile up against each other. We would do this in a hurry,

8 and we were almost trampled over by the people in front of us because they

9 were so frightened.

10 JUDGE RIAD: From your observation, Mr. Zigic was leading the

11 whole people around him? Was he the driving person of the whole

12 situation?

13 A. As far as I'm concerned, he was the leader of the group which

14 terrorised people, beat them up. He was the leader of that group, in my

15 mind -- to my mind.

16 JUDGE RIAD: Would he tell people to do things or not to do

17 things?

18 A. Well, you know, he didn't say who had to do what. He just swore

19 and cursed, and then they knew the order of things that should be done.

20 But he didn't actually say what should be done.

21 JUDGE RIAD: Now, I would like to ask you about Mr. Krkan. You

22 said that as soon as you arrived, this girl, Hajra Hodzic, warned you

23 about his shift. What happened to this girl after that?

24 A. Unfortunately, the girl disappeared and nobody knows to this day,

25 at least I didn't hear anything about her, whether she is still alive and

Page 4708

1 living somewhere. She just disappeared, quite simply.

2 JUDGE RIAD: Was she linked a little bit with the fire which

3 happened?

4 A. I don't know. If some woman was burnt, they might say it was

5 her. Maybe she was one of those victims. I don't know. But while I was

6 in Omarska, she didn't appear anywhere. I didn't see her anywhere.

7 JUDGE RIAD: You seem to indicate that in the fire some people

8 were burnt. Is this only based on the fact of the smell you smelt or the

9 shouts? What were the signs of your statement that people were being

10 burnt?

11 A. My feeling is, but I did not see it, and I always say that, that

12 anybody was thrown there, but I did smell the smell of meat or flesh mixed

13 up with the smell of the burning rubber. But who was and whether they

14 were, I didn't see that.

15 JUDGE RIAD: You said that you heard hair-raising screams. Was

16 that during the fire itself or was it during the tortures?

17 A. It was during the fire. From the time dusk fell and long into the

18 night, you could hear cries outside.

19 JUDGE RIAD: Coming from the direction of the fire?

20 A. Yes, from the direction of the fire, or perhaps even from the

21 direction of the first room. I was in the second room and the screams

22 were coming from the direction of the fire.

23 JUDGE RIAD: Did you have a chance afterwards to see if they were

24 cleaning things from the fire, carrying any debris out of the fire?

25 A. No, I didn't see them clearing up anything. But the day I went

Page 4709

1 out for the "white house" to be washed, you could see that the grass had

2 been burnt outside the "white house."

3 JUDGE RIAD: You spoke about Sefik Sivac who was thrown on your

4 legs and died during the night. Do you have more precise information,

5 more information about how he died, what led to his death?

6 A. Well, they beat him outside. We heard the sounds of the blows.

7 We heard them hitting him and swearing, and then they threw him in. I

8 didn't recognise him straight away, but in the morning I recognised him

9 and saw that it was my friend, Sefik Sivac.

10 JUDGE RIAD: Was he taken out also by Krkan?

11 A. Krkan did not take him out. He was not called out from the room.

12 He was somewhere else in another room. He wasn't in that room. After

13 some beating, he was brought into our room and thrown at our feet.

14 JUDGE RIAD: Krkan also broke your ribs, if I understood rightly;

15 that's right? And was beating all your co-travellers.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila.

17 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that we should

18 take a look at the transcript before the question is answered. This was

19 not what the witness said.

20 A. I did not say that he beat him, I said that he called him out.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Judge Riad, would

22 you like to ask the question.

23 JUDGE RIAD: You said that you can recognise the person who broke

24 your ribs and beat all the co-travellers, and then you said that this

25 person was Krkan. Did I understand rightly? Or was this somebody else?

Page 4710

1 A. I don't know what -- I think that there has been a

2 misunderstanding here somewhere. I always said that Krkan called people

3 out, whereas a group of people were waiting over there and they beat

4 them. That was all.

5 JUDGE RIAD: You said you can always recognise the person who

6 broke your ribs; did you say that?

7 A. I said who was responsible for my broken ribs, because I consider

8 him to be responsible.

9 JUDGE RIAD: I see. So he was responsible but did not break your

10 ribs.

11 A. I consider that he is responsible, and I will always say that he

12 is responsible because he could have prevented the group of people from

13 killing people in the "white house."

14 JUDGE RIAD: Why do you think he could prevent that?

15 A. Because I think that he was one of the leaders of the shift and he

16 could order them not to do that. He didn't have to make up the list

17 according to which we were beaten. So that is the basis and the

18 foundation from which I always stem.

19 JUDGE RIAD: Did you see him practice this, that he prevented

20 other things from happening?

21 A. I did not see that, no. I did not see that.

22 JUDGE RIAD: You did not see that. What about this policeman

23 Kvocka who stabbed you, if I understood rightly. Did I understand that,

24 that he stabbed you with a knife which came into your belt?

25 A. Yes. Throughout my stay in Omarska, he was there in front of the

Page 4711

1 "white house" standing guard. What then happened to him, I don't know,

2 believe me.

3 JUDGE RIAD: I just wanted to know, was it a common feature that

4 anybody could stab anybody passing, or was this Mr. Kvocka some special

5 person who could do that? Anybody could stab anybody and nobody would

6 stop them?

7 A. I can say that during our detention in Keraterm and Omarska, a

8 Serb, even a civilian, could come, they would allow them to come and take

9 revenge, stab or kill or whatever. Nobody ever tried to stop anyone.

10 JUDGE RIAD: And nobody would order anybody to do something

11 either?

12 A. I put -- no, I don't think they would order them not to do things,

13 to be quite specific. But, yes, they did order to do something, something

14 bad to us, but did not order them not to do something, not to hurt us.

15 There was only one shift commander in Keraterm, that is what I just

16 stated, and he behaved as a human being should and he tried to prevent

17 them from beating the prisoners.

18 JUDGE RIAD: Who was that?

19 A. I do not know his name. We all called him Kajin. And I think

20 that Mr. Zigic remembers him well.

21 JUDGE RIAD: So who made the lists then? The lists of people who

22 were taken, where did these lists come from?

23 A. Well, say, those lists, there were different kinds of lists. I

24 don't know whether they had agreed on them beforehand and drawn up those

25 lists before, or did they have some orders from some superior authority.

Page 4712

1 But whatever the case, they would always come with some lists and call out

2 names. Or were those their private matter? But at that time, the best

3 thing for any Muslim, Croat, or any other ethnicity was to get away, as

4 far away into some corner, not to show his face, because otherwise perhaps

5 he'd bring you your lunch at noon but then you would be gone by the

6 evening.

7 JUDGE RIAD: Now, when you said he would bring you your lunch, any

8 guard would do that, bring you your lunch, and then come and take you, or

9 it had to be the commander of the shift?

10 A. I don't know. As far as I know, in Omarska --

11 JUDGE RIAD: In your case.

12 A. In my case, nobody ever brought me any lunch.

13 JUDGE RIAD: When you were called, it was in the list?

14 A. It was from the list.

15 JUDGE RIAD: And it was by a guard or by Krkan?

16 A. In Omarska, we had made up that list upon Krkan's orders.

17 JUDGE RIAD: How do you know it's upon his orders?

18 A. Well, he was the one who brought the sheet of paper on which we

19 then wrote down.

20 JUDGE RIAD: I see. Thank you very much.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Judge Riad.

23 Judge Wald, do you have any questions.

24 JUDGE WALD: I have just a few about Krkan's role, to make sure I

25 understand. You did say that Krkan stayed behind when the beatings were

Page 4713

1 conducted but that he came in with the list and went down the list as to

2 the people who would be taken out to be beat by others. In fact,

3 according to the English translation, you said he led the group of

4 torturers. Well, I understand that he didn't -- to your knowledge, he

5 didn't personally beat anybody; is that correct? Krkan did not personally

6 beat anybody; is that correct? To your knowledge. To your knowledge.

7 A. To my knowledge, to my knowledge, I did not see -- I did not see

8 him beat, personally, anyone. What I have been saying all the time is

9 that he would be calling out our names from the list, and he would then be

10 in the passage.

11 JUDGE WALD: I understand that. My next question would then be:

12 You also said that when it came your turn, Krkan actually, I think you

13 used the word, pushed you into the room where the other people began the

14 beatings. My question is: When he pushed you into the room, did the door

15 remain open while you were beaten by these other people, the door to the

16 passageway where, I think you said, he would remain somewhere in that

17 passageway, in that corridor? Was the door closed when these beatings

18 went on; do you remember?

19 A. Do you mean that small room?

20 JUDGE WALD: Yes, the small room where the beatings actually took

21 place.

22 A. That small room didn't have any door.

23 JUDGE WALD: Okay. That answers my question. The follow-up

24 question is: Do you know where Mr. Krkan would be physically located when

25 people were taken into that room to be beaten? Was it close by? Was it

Page 4714

1 outside with the group of people waiting to be called to be beaten? How

2 nearby to the room where the beatings actually took place would, to your

3 knowledge, Mr. Krkan, or Krkan, be physically present at the time of the

4 beatings?

5 A. Physically present. Mr. Krkan was practically right next to us,

6 because the door into another room and the entrance into this room were

7 right next to the other. He would simply lag behind as we entered.

8 JUDGE WALD: And so -- this is my last question. When they were

9 through beating, when the other people were through beating the person, he

10 would be brought back and he would, to your knowledge, have to go by the

11 spot where Mr. Krkan and the rest of the people were, so that you would

12 see the person coming out from having been beaten; is that right?

13 A. Yes, but let's make it clear. Not one person left that room under

14 his own steam. They would be dragged out, carried out.

15 JUDGE WALD: They would have to go by the place where the other

16 people were waiting and Mr. Krkan was standing when they were

17 coming -- when they were carried out; right?

18 A. Right, yes. By Krkan.

19 JUDGE WALD: All right. Thank you very much.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Judge Wald.

21 Witness, I have at least four questions. My first question is:

22 You said that Mr. Zigic came every day. Do you know, how long would he

23 spend in the camp in one day? How long would he stay in there?

24 A. Well, you know, it would depend on when he would come. For a

25 while, as we heard, he was forbidden from entering the camp. But then

Page 4715

1 depending on the shift, he would circle around. We could always see him

2 circle around the guards, chatting with them. So sometimes he would come

3 at noon and then leave and then come back in the evening, perhaps

4 to reconnoitre the situation. But at any rate, I think he spent more time

5 in the camp than anywhere else.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. My second question:

7 You said at some point that Krkan played the chief role on the first day.

8 Do you remember that, that he played one of the crucial roles? What do

9 you mean by that? What does the crucial role, principal role mean to you?

10 A. Well, to me -- that is what I said, "role," because he, to my

11 mind, was a leader of everything that happened that day, because he was

12 the one who called out our names at the time when they were beating us.

13 That is, he played the main role throughout because it all went through

14 his authority.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You also said another thing:

16 Krkan entered the room and put an end to the torture. Do you remember

17 that?

18 A. No, he did not enter; he just stood in the doorway and stopped it,

19 and then explained that we were to go for interrogation.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But do you remember the words

21 that he used? Do you remember the language? What exactly did he say?

22 Could you try to remember the exact words that he used?

23 A. You know, at that moment, what he -- the exact words he used, I

24 don't know. All I know is that he stopped those guards of his and those

25 men that were there, to interrupt what they were doing. And then he

Page 4716













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14 and French transcripts.












Page 4717

1 explained to us that we were to stand up and would call out the names,

2 that those individuals should go out for interrogation. And then all the

3 ill-treatment and harassment and all the beating stopped.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Was your impression that Krkan

5 was in disagreement, that he did not like what the others were doing?

6 A. My impression was, and judging by his conduct, he was very happy

7 to see it, he enjoyed the whole thing.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And my last question: You

9 mentioned a minor incident when somebody came to draw up a list of what

10 you owned, of your belongings, and said if you had that and turned it

11 over, then you would escape the torture. Do you remember that?

12 A. Yes, I do.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Was he alone then or were there

14 other people with him?

15 A. At that time he had entered the room alone.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And did you have the impression

17 that there were some other people outside who were accompanying him or was

18 he really alone?

19 A. At that time I did not really think about anything else. I was

20 merely listening to what he was saying and we were all watching him,

21 because ...

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. That is it. Well,

23 Mr. Icic, this brings your evidence to a close. Thank you very much. And

24 we are very glad that we can release you for the weekend. Thank you very

25 much for making the effort. Thank you for coming to the Tribunal to give

Page 4718

1 evidence. And we wish you a happy journey back to your place of

2 residence.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Will the usher please help the

5 witness out.

6 [The witness withdrew]

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. I believe we can

8 call this a day. We shall resume here on Tuesday at 9.30. What is the

9 programme that you have for the next week, Mr. Keegan?

10 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour. We have the witnesses scheduled as

11 announced and the most recent list, however, of course, with the changes

12 as a result of your decision with respect to the revised witness list. So

13 the week will begin with Witnesses J and K, beginning with Witness J on

14 Tuesday.

15 Also, Your Honour, given the discussions about procedures with

16 respect to identifications inside the courtroom, I've spoken with Defence

17 counsel. My proposal is that the Prosecution will draft up a standard

18 procedure to be used, to be followed specifically in every case. We will

19 provide that to the Defence sometime probably on Sunday, put it in their

20 locker so they can review it on Monday so that hopefully on Tuesday

21 morning we can advise the Court of an agreed-upon or at least come close

22 to a resolution on exactly what procedure will be followed by the

23 parties.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think that it is always a good

25 procedure, especially to notify the Defence counsel what is being

Page 4719

1 suggested, and it is good to discuss it with them in advance rather than

2 come here and spring surprises on everybody, because it always then

3 affects the organisation. And I think that you, Mr. Keegan, you could

4 also benefit from that, because it is a matter of time, naturally. So the

5 better you prepare, the more time you will have. And so I advise you to

6 keep in touch so as to prepare things well for the week to come, not only

7 for the next week, but for the weeks to come.

8 And now we shall adjourn. Have a nice weekend and successful

9 work. Thank you.

10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.24

11 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 5th day of

12 September 2000, at 9.30 a.m.