1 Friday, 1 September 2000
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated.
6 Good morning, ladies and gentlemen; good morning to the technical
7 booth and the interpreters; good morning to the legal assistants and the
8 registrar, the Prosecution, the Defence counsel. I see they're all here.
9 Good morning to the accused.
10 I think that we can take up our work where we left off yesterday,
11 but I was just told that somebody had something to say before the
13 Mr. Stojanovic, was it you who asked for the floor and have a
14 problem this morning?
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, and I think we
16 can settle the problem after yesterday's Status Conference. This morning
17 I spoke with my colleague Mr. Keegan with respect to the testimony of
18 Witness Brkic and having him testify as a Defence witness. My colleague
19 agreed, and if I'm correct, he has contacted the witness. He has
20 discussed the matter with him so in order to save time later on. And the
21 witness is ready to testify. He is still here. Is there any possibility
22 within the frameworks of standard procedure of having the witness called
23 back and so to complete his examination at this Tribunal? I think that
24 Mr. Keegan could assist me in this matter and explain it to you. Thank
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Keegan.
2 MR. KEEGAN: Thank you, Your Honour. I'm not sure how I would
3 assist a Defence application, but yesterday afternoon, after a
4 conversation with Mr. Stojanovic, it appeared that he was still -- wanted
5 to somehow question Mr. Brkic with respect to certain matters. I
6 indicated that, you know, he could potentially request leave to recall the
7 witness based on our discussions yesterday, and what seemed to be moving
8 towards a resolution of how to deal with statement, use of statements in
9 cross-examination, et cetera, now that the ground is a bit more clear.
10 Based on the indications that he might in fact make that
11 application, I contacted the Victims and Witnesses Unit and the witness to
12 make sure he was willing and able to come back. And in fact that is
13 possible, so he is available should the Chamber grant an application to
14 recall him this morning.
15 The Prosecution's position in this regard is that if -- this to us
16 is another aspect of Rule 90, which hasn't been fully discussed yet, but
17 the way we read subparagraph H -- excuse me, paragraph H, subparagraphs
18 (i) and (ii), is that there is really a two-step phase here. If we are
19 moving into the aspect where the witness is to give evidence relevant to
20 the case for the cross-examining party, then subparagraph (ii) becomes
21 effective, which requires the cross-examining party to put to the witness
22 the nature of the case that they are trying to present through that
23 witness' evidence.
24 So first, it's not simply a matter of conducting a
25 cross-examination. We're now moving into a different arena, and it is, as
1 I understand it, perhaps more akin to the system in the UK and in
2 Australia, where you have to advise or put your case to the witness before
3 actually questioning them on a matter.
4 The second aspect of this, and something that I would be more
5 familiar with, and that is: What Mr. Stojanovic is really seeking to do
6 is now to take the witness on as his own witness. And if that is indeed
7 the case, then what he should be doing is in fact conducting a direct
8 examination of this witness on those matters, even though, as a technical
9 matter, it's coming during his cross-examination, if you will, of the
10 witness. I think, as a matter of law, we're moving into a different
11 arena. He is now in fact conducting a direct examination. Our redirect,
12 if you will, would in fact then be a cross-examination of the witness
13 based on this new area.
14 So the Prosecution is of course -- will not object if the Chamber
15 wants to grant leave of this application, since the witness is available
16 and it is more convenient for the witness. We're not sure, in fact, that
17 the area merits additional examination; however, if it is granted, then we
18 believe this new method, if you will, or this separate aspect of Rule 90
19 comes into play, and what Mr. Stojanovic must be advised is that he is in
20 fact conducting a direct examination on this topic, not a
21 cross-examination, and that we would then have the opportunity to
22 cross-examine the witness based on this new area. Thank you, Your
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Stojanovic.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, any of these
1 variants is available to us. There's just one question that might contain
2 some subquestions that I'm interested in. We, of course, do not question
3 any right of the Prosecution to ask any additional questions.
4 The problem is of a formal nature, that is to say, whether he
5 should be examined as a Defence witness later on. But any variant is all
6 right by us. What we want to do is just to have a chance to ask the
7 witness these questions, and of course accord the Prosecution the right to
8 further examine the witness on the basis of that.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Stojanovic, could you inform
11 the Chamber which questions you would like to put to the witness and the
12 questions that could come within the framework of the
13 examination-in-chief, that is to say, the questions that you're going to
14 ask, that you intend to ask and that you would ask if the witness were a
15 Defence witness?
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps it is superfluous for me
17 to remind the Chamber that Mr. Zigic is charged with the killing of Becir
18 Medunjanin from Omarska, and from the written statement of this witness,
19 we learn that he is well acquainted with the circumstances of the death of
20 Becir Medunjanin. I think he said that he does not know Becir Medunjanin,
21 but the witness said that he did know about the event, and that's where we
22 stopped off. So my questions have to do with that exclusive incident,
23 nothing else. We have had a chance to ask the witness everything else
24 that we wanted to know. Thank you. So it is about Becir Medunjanin.
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. The Chamber, bearing
1 in mind the interests of justice and the administration of justice, as we
2 have the witness present, and bearing in mind the fact that the Prosecutor
3 has the right to cross-examine him in this area and the fact that
4 Mr. Stojanovic also enjoys the right to pose questions, additional
5 complementary questions, if the case arises, should the need arise, the
6 Chamber has decided to grant the right of the requesting party to go
7 ahead. So we're going to allow the questioning of this witness.
8 Are you going to recall the witness, Mr. Piacente? I think it's
9 Mr. Piacente's turn, is it not?
10 MR. KEEGAN: No, Your Honour, I will actually conduct the
11 cross-examination. But the witness should be available. Abdulah Brkic.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.
13 Mr. Usher, will you please recall the witness, have him brought
14 into the courtroom.
15 Mr. Stojanovic, I should like to ask you to ask the witness the
16 question but to explain to him why you are asking the question of him. I
17 hope that's clear.
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you, Your Honours.
19 [The witness entered court]
20 WITNESS: ABDULAH BRKIC [Recalled]
21 [Witness answered through interpreter]
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness. Thank
23 you very much for coming back. We have some complementary questions to
24 ask you. You're not going to take the solemn declaration again because
25 we're going to take it as a continuation of your previous testimony. But
1 let me remind you that you are still under oath, and you shall now be
2 answering questions put to you by Mr. Stojanovic.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Stojanovic, your witness.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone to the counsel.
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I should like to express my
8 gratitude to the Trial Chamber for granting me permission to pose the
9 questions, and to thank the Prosecution for their understanding.
10 Cross-examined by Mr. Stojanovic: [Continued]
11 Q. I should like to wish the witness a very good morning, once
13 A. Good morning.
14 Q. I have already introduced myself. Mr. Brkic, we touched upon a
15 topic that I should like to dwell on for a moment and ask you one
16 additional question, with several subquestions perhaps. We discussed the
17 topic of the death of Becir Medunjanin. If I'm not mistaken, you said
18 that you know quite a lot about that event in Omarska. Can you continue
19 and tell us what you know about that event?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. I should like to ask you to continue and recount what you know
22 about the event, and then I would ask you some more concrete questions as
23 we go along.
24 Did you see, on any occasion, Duca Knezevic in the Omarska camp?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Did you see him kill anybody then in Omarska?
2 A. I never said in my statement that I saw him kill, and that the man
3 was dead on the spot.
4 Q. Did you say that he used a knife on someone?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Could you tell us how he injured that particular individual?
7 A. He slit his throat here, like this. Now, how deep the cut was, I
8 don't know. Whether the man was dead on the spot or not, I don't know.
9 They took him out from behind the "white house," and I didn't see the man
10 any more after that.
11 Q. Did anybody tell you who the man was?
12 A. I was told before. When I arrived in Omarska, on one particular
13 day we were lying down on the pista, and they told us then to get up
14 "because your leader has arrived. Look at him." We got up, and when I
15 looked, I saw a man whom I had never met before, and I heard from the
16 other prisoners that it was Becir Medunjanin.
17 Q. Did you see in detail how Duca pulled out a knife?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And how he hit -- that is, slit --
20 A. Yes, he slit the man here, like this. Yes, I did see that.
21 Q. Were you close by?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Was there a pool of blood from that injury next to your feet?
24 A. Yes, there was blood.
25 Q. In your statement, and I can read it to you, the portion of your
1 statement, you said Becir was dead on the spot.
2 A. No, I did not state that ever.
3 Q. It is on page 15. I can show it to you. I think that it is in
4 the B/C/S version on page 15, and also on page 15 of the English version.
5 "Becir died instantly," it reads in English.
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] So if I may, I'd like to present
7 this statement, have it shown to the witness.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Keegan.
9 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour. I'm going to object at this point,
10 because he's asked the question and the witness has said he didn't say
11 it. Showing it to him in writing does nothing to change that testimony.
12 Again, this now gets into the area of the use of the statement as
13 evidence, and then we're opening that door that we described again
14 yesterday. The questions can be asked, but I think there's a separation
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Stojanovic.
17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we don't want to
18 complicate matters, particularly after you granted our request. I
19 withdraw the question.
20 Q. During this event, did you happen to see Zoran Zigic anywhere
22 A. You mean at that particular instant?
23 Q. No. During the events and circumstances of the slitting of his
25 A. No. Duca was alone in the corridor.
1 Q. Was Zoran Zigic anywhere in the "white house" or anywhere in
2 Omarska at the time?
3 A. He was in Omarska on that day, but I do not know where he was.
4 Q. Was he in the "white house"?
5 A. I said that I do not know where he was.
6 Q. After this event, did you see Zoran? That is to say, do you know
7 whether this man died at all?
8 A. I don't know. I didn't claim that. But I didn't see the man
9 anymore. That's all.
10 Q. Afterwards, did you see Mr. Zigic in Omarska, after the event?
11 A. Yes, frequently.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know whether
13 I will step outside these frameworks, but I think the witness said -- I
14 think the witness said that he saw him only once in Omarska yesterday.
15 Q. Is that right, Witness? Did you say that?
16 Before the slitting took place with the knife, did that same
17 Duca --
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Mr. Stojanovic. Once
19 you've broached a question, the witness must answer. So the question was:
20 Did he see Mr. Zigic only once in Omarska or not?
21 Did you see him only once or did you see him at other times as
22 well, Witness? What is your answer?
23 A. Several times.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Please continue,
25 Mr. Stojanovic.
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. This particular man, Duca Knezevic, before slitting the person's
3 neck, whom you learnt from others was called Becir Medunjanin, did he in
4 any other way mistreat, beat, or abuse this man?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Could you tell us in what way?
7 A. Well, he had a sort of baton with a sort of ball on it and he
8 would beat people with that ball. I was beaten with that ball too.
9 Q. Is it a ball directly attached to the baton?
10 A. Yes. At the top of the baton there was a ball like this attached
11 to it.
12 Q. How did he hit him? On his body, his head?
13 A. Everywhere. All over.
14 Q. On his head?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did this man, Medunjanin, react in any way, say anything?
17 A. Yes, he did. I remember his words very well.
18 Q. Could you please tell us what he said.
19 A. He said, "Go ahead, beat me, Duca. You've got a good system. But
20 don't remember [as interpreted] that from here to Banja Luka, Sarajevo,
21 Tuzla, and Bihac, there are a lots of Muslims, and one of the Muslims will
22 catch up with you." Those were his last words.
23 Q. After this event, did you ever see that man again, the man who was
25 A. No.
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have no further
2 questions. I would like to express my gratitude to the witness and to the
3 Trial Chamber for allowing me to go ahead. I have no further questions.
4 Thank you.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.
6 Mr. Keegan, your witness for the cross-examination.
7 MR. KEEGAN: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Cross-examined by Mr. Keegan:
9 Q. Mr. Brkic, you indicated that you had no independent knowledge of
10 Becir Medunjanin before you were in the camp. That is, you didn't know
11 him, did you?
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. The man that you saw beaten in the hallway that day, you don't
14 know yourself that that was Becir Medunjanin, do you?
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. Do you know how many people were beaten or, indeed, even killed
17 that day in the "white house"?
18 A. No.
19 Q. You've testified that the man, in addition to being cut with the
20 knife, was being beaten severely with this baton with the metal ball on
21 the end of it. Prior to even being cut with the knife, was there already
22 blood all over the hallway from the beating?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And was the man already bleeding rather heavily?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And the last you saw of this event was the man being dragged out
2 of the "white house"; is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And you have no knowledge of what happened to that man or whether
5 or not, indeed, he even died after that; is that correct?
6 A. I do not know that. I never saw that man again.
7 MR. KEEGAN: No further questions, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Stojanovic, do you have any
9 additional questions?
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours. Thank you.
11 Questioned by the Court:
12 JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Brkic, good morning.
13 A. Good morning.
14 JUDGE RIAD: I just want some precision, which you already gave
15 perhaps, concerning this event. You have been -- apparently in your
16 career you have been a butcher, so you know what is the slit of a throat.
17 When Duca slit the throat of Becir, was this, in your opinion, if you were
18 close enough, was it a heavy one or was it just a wound which would not
19 kill? And the amount of blood which came out, was it indicative of a real
20 slit or of a wound? Could you -- were you able to see that, and where was
21 the slit exactly?
22 A. I do not think that it was a deep wound. It was just a cut here,
23 below the chin, and there was some blood. I don't know whether the wound
24 was lethal and could he die of that wound or what they did to him
25 afterwards. All I know, that after that they simply pulled him out and
1 left him on the grass behind the "white house".
2 JUDGE RIAD: When he was pulled out, the stream of blood coming
3 out, was it immense? Was it a big stream of blood or just drops of blood
4 coming out of a wound?
5 A. Well, he was bleeding, of course, because I was in this business,
6 a butcher. And blood did not spurt out, but there was some bleeding.
7 Whether that was enough and for what, I don't know.
8 JUDGE RIAD: And you never saw him again?
9 A. I did not.
10 JUDGE RIAD: Was he in a room -- he was not supposed to be in the
11 same room as you?
12 A. No, because I wasn't in that room that day. It was raining that
13 day and they put us around all the rooms. And then after the rain
14 stopped, they said, "Well, those who were on the pista should go back to
15 the pista. All men from the pista back to the pista."
16 JUDGE RIAD: When Duca did that with the knife, did he mention
17 that he wanted to kill him?
18 A. No.
19 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you once again, Witness
21 Brkic, for coming here. We thank you once again and we wish you a safe
22 journey back to your home.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Usher, will you please help the
25 witness out of the courtroom.
1 [The witness withdrew]
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Do you have another witness,
3 Mr. Keegan, somebody who was already here?
4 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I should like to ask the parties
6 to do their best to complete the evidence of this testimony today rather
7 than to have to recall him on Tuesday. I believe you understand. So
8 Mr. Piacente, please to go to the point. And both parties, will you both
9 try your best.
10 [The witness entered court]
11 WITNESS: HASE ICIC [Resumed]
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness. Can you
14 hear me?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Good morning.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated. Yes, because
17 you already made the solemn declaration yesterday, so we consider you as
18 still under oath and you now will be answering questions that are put to
19 you by the Prosecutor. And everybody will do his utmost so that you do
20 not have to come back next week.
21 Mr. Piacente, you have the floor.
22 MR. PIACENTE: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Examined by Mr. Piacente:
24 Q. Your name, please.
25 A. Hase Icic.
1 Q. The date and the place of your birth?
2 A. Third of November, 1948, and I was born in Trnopolje, between
3 Hrnjici and Trnopolje. It is in the direction of Kozarac, municipality of
5 Q. Your ethnicity?
6 A. I'm of Muslim ethnicity.
7 Q. In which village did you live in 1992?
8 A. Trnopolje.
9 Q. Which opstina?
10 A. Prijedor.
11 Q. Have you ever been confined in Keraterm?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Can you recall the date of your arrest?
14 A. I believe it was around the 14th or 15th or thereabouts. June, I
16 Q. 1992, you mean?
17 A. 1992.
18 Q. Did any of your relatives -- was any of your relatives arrested
19 together with you?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And you were driven to Keraterm?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. How were you driven to Keraterm?
24 A. We were put on three buses, and there was yet another truck, a
25 smaller truck.
1 Q. How crowded were the buses and the truck?
2 A. Well, all the buses were full.
3 Q. Who did you see when you arrived in Keraterm?
4 A. When I got to Keraterm I saw soldiers, guards wearing army
5 uniforms, and on the bus with us we also had escorts wearing military
6 uniforms, the uniforms of the former army of Yugoslavia. And there were
7 also police uniforms of the former Yugoslavia.
8 Q. What were you told when you arrived in Keraterm?
9 A. The escorts who were on the bus told us to get off, to stand next
10 to the bus.
11 THE INTERPRETER: I could not hear the end of the witness's
12 sentence. Could the witness be asked to speak up, please.
13 MR. PIACENTE:
14 Q. Could you please speak a little bit louder, please.
15 A. I can. I can, yes.
16 Q. Were you searched?
17 A. We were ordered to empty our pockets, to completely empty them.
18 Q. Did you hand over your money?
19 A. Everything.
20 Q. You mean you handed over also your documents?
21 A. Everything. Everything. I handed over everything.
22 Q. Who did you notice specifically during the search?
23 A. Well, for instance, during the search, everything was regular
24 until out of the blue a soldier in a red beret turned up, and he began to
25 shout, to use obscene language, saying things should go faster.
1 Q. Have you ever known the name of this person?
2 A. Oh, yes. I learnt that that man's name was Zoran Zigic.
3 Everybody called him Ziga.
4 Q. How did you know that he was named this way?
5 A. Well, you know, it was easy to learn, because the gentleman
6 introduced himself every time when -- every evening when he would come.
7 Q. How did he treat the prisoners at your arrival?
8 A. You know, my impression was that he wanted to leave the impression
9 that he do with each one of us as he pleased, to kill whomever he wanted,
10 beat, take out, or whatever. As a matter of fact, yes, he could do that,
11 and he did do that.
12 Q. Was your brother beaten by him?
13 A. Yes. During the search, where we were handing over our documents,
14 my brother wasn't all that quick, and perhaps he tried to keep back his
15 passport, because he had a visa and he needed it for a job abroad. But
16 Mr. Zigic ran up to him, grabbed the passport from him, hit him, and tore
17 his passport up, saying, "You'll never need this again."
18 Q. Is your brother still alive?
19 A. No, unfortunately not.
20 Q. Who else was beaten by Zigic at your arrival?
21 A. Well, I guess he knew a friend of his, Alic, and he beat him and
22 hit him and cursed him and kept asking him why had he fired shots at his
24 Q. How was Alic beaten?
25 A. Oh, he was beaten with hands and feet and pistols.
1 Q. How long did you stay in Keraterm?
2 A. About three weeks.
3 Q. Which room were you confined?
4 A. Room number 2.
5 Q. How crowded was Room number 2?
6 A. You know that the number varied from one day to the other. There
7 were fewer people when I arrived, but at some point it reached the figure
8 of 1.000.
9 Q. Did you have enough space to lie down and sleep altogether at the
10 same time when it was so crowded?
11 A. Only the first evening. Only the first evening there was room
12 enough for us to sit down but not to lie down. Afterwards we could not
13 even sit down because it was too crammed. But in the beginning, yes, we
14 sat where there was enough room to sit down.
15 Q. Were you interrogated during your confinement in Keraterm?
16 A. Yes, indeed.
17 Q. What did they ask you?
18 A. You know, my impression was that it was a formality. Everything
19 about my origins, from my great-grandfathers and on, until the day I came
20 to Keraterm.
21 Q. What was the ethnicity of the prisoners in Keraterm?
22 A. Well, most of them were Muslims; Croats, and as far as I know,
23 there was a Serb too.
24 Q. Why was he confined in Keraterm?
25 A. As a matter of fact, the Serb was confined there only because he
1 had refused, I think, the SDS plan and the plans of the Serb authorities,
2 and was a member of the SDA.
3 Q. To your knowledge, is he alive?
4 A. He is not alive.
5 Q. Do you know that?
6 A. I am positive because I saw him on the dump, on a heap of rubbish,
8 Q. In Keraterm?
9 A. Keraterm. In Keraterm.
10 Q. What was the ethnicity of the guards?
11 A. The guards were all Serbs, as far as I know.
12 Q. Have you ever known someone named Emsud Bahonjic?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What was his ethnicity?
15 A. He was a Muslim.
16 Q. Did you know him before your confinement in Keraterm?
17 A. Yes, I did, him and his whole family, his parents, his uncles.
18 Q. What kind of job did he have?
19 A. On the eve of the war he had a coffee bar, and he was also a
20 reserve policeman.
21 Q. Did you meet him in Keraterm?
22 A. Yes, sure, I did.
23 Q. In which room was he confined?
24 A. Room number 2.
25 Q. Was he already detained in Keraterm when you arrived?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What condition did you find him in when you saw him for the first
3 time in Keraterm?
4 A. Wretched. He was beaten.
5 Q. Did you talk to him?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Why?
8 A. I do not think he really was able to speak at all, and those who
9 came with him advised not to talk to him. Even his uncle and others from
10 the first room were not allowed to come and help him or give him some
11 water at least, if nothing else.
12 Q. Was Emsud beaten other times after your arrival in Keraterm?
13 A. Once only.
14 Q. What happened?
15 A. Well, as a matter of fact, he could not walk under his own steam.
16 Other inmates dragged him out, helped him to get out. With another group,
17 he was called out and battered outside in front of the entrance into the
19 Q. Who called him out?
20 A. He was called out by Mr. Zigic.
21 Q. Was Mr. Zigic alone when he called him out or was he with other
23 A. He was never alone. You know, he'd come to the door alone and
24 perhaps stand in the doorway, but there would always be an escort behind
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the English
14 and French transcripts.
1 Q. How many people were called out?
2 A. On that occasion, I think four or five men were called out.
3 Q. Did you know anybody else out of that group of people who were
4 called out?
5 A. On that occasion, yes, I knew others too; that is, not directly
6 but I heard names, because they were with us in the room. Those that were
7 in the room, they knew those people who had been called out.
8 Q. Can you mention their ethnicity or the names?
9 A. They were all Muslims.
10 Q. Can you recall their names?
11 A. Well, names, I don't recall. I remember there was a Jakupovic;
12 then there was -- well, you know, it's a long time ago. I've really
13 forgotten all those names. It would take me some time to remember them.
14 But I do know that all those men had been sitting in the back, not far
15 from me.
16 Q. What did you hear after Emsud and the other ones were taken out?
17 A. As usual, you know, when somebody is outside and he's beaten, he's
18 battered, in the room, there's, what do you call it, a pin-drop silence.
19 Everybody is very quiet, so one hears beating and noise and obscenities,
20 cries of pain, moans.
21 Q. Was Emsud cursed during the beating?
22 A. They cursed everybody.
23 Q. Can you recall anybody in particular who cursed them?
24 A. Zigic, for instance. He never stopped cursing.
25 Q. How long after he was taken out did Emsud come back to Room number
2 A. Emsud did not come back, he was brought back. He was thrown in,
3 and then other inmates took him to the same place and put him there. It
4 lasted slightly over half an hour.
5 Q. In what condition was he?
6 A. I couldn't see it then, but the next day he practically could not
8 Q. Did you talk to him?
9 A. No. Nobody talked to him again.
10 Q. Among the prisoners who were taken out together with Emsud
11 Bahonjic, was there anybody who didn't come back to Room number 2 or who
12 was never brought back to Room number 2?
13 A. Oh, yes, a young man of Albanian ethnicity. He used to work for
14 the coffee shop Zvjezdas and allegedly was its owner. He did not return
15 to Room number 2.
16 Q. Can you tell us, to your knowledge, whether Emsud Bahonjic and
17 this Albanian survived?
18 A. No, they did not.
19 Q. How often did Zoran Zigic, during your confinement in Keraterm,
20 come to Room number 2 and call out prisoners?
21 A. Zoran Zigic came every day while I was in Keraterm, because, you
22 know, he was like that. He beats somebody, he frightens that person, and
23 then an hour later or half an hour later, comes to sell cigarettes to us
24 and says, "Well, here's your Ziga. He won't let you suffer without
25 cigarettes. A carton of cigarettes costs 100 German marks."
1 Q. Did Zigic ever shoot inside Room number 2 when he came in and
2 called prisoners out?
3 A. Oh, yes, sure. He fired shots the first night at the ceiling.
4 That was his speciality. In the morning he would come there and order us
5 to pull back, to all retreat back to the wall in the back. And people
6 jumped and we almost suffocated because we were so afraid and crowded
7 there in that corner.
8 Q. To your knowledge, was anybody wounded?
9 A. Yes. Yes, a young man was wounded.
10 Q. In which part of his body was he wounded?
11 A. Leg, I think.
12 Q. Of course, my question was, was anybody wounded when Zigic entered
13 the room and shot?
14 A. That was then, because he was firing at the ceiling, at the beam
15 in the ceiling. It was a huge hall and there was this long bearing beam,
16 and he fired at this beam and the bullet ricocheted and hit that guy in
17 the leg.
18 Q. Can you tell us which position Zigic had in the camp?
19 A. I don't know what his position was before I came, whether he was a
20 shift commander or what. But when I came, he was free, he could do as he
21 pleased in Keraterm. Except one. Only one shift commander wouldn't let
22 him do as he pleased. But otherwise he could always do as he pleased. So
23 it is difficult to say what he really was in Keraterm or -- be that as it
24 may, he wasn't a guard then.
25 Q. How was he usually dressed?
1 A. He always wore a red beret and he had a military uniform on him.
2 Sometimes he would just have trousers on and a T-shirt. He wasn't always
3 dressed the same way. But he always had this beret with him. If it
4 wasn't on his head, it would be on his shoulder or tucked into his belt or
5 under his arm.
6 Q. Did he used to carry weapons in Keraterm?
7 A. Yes. Yes, he always carried a pistol with him.
8 Q. Can you give us a description of Zigic, a physical description of
9 Zigic, I mean?
10 A. Well, for instance, he was of medium height, perhaps a little
11 taller. Not too tall, though. He was dark. That would be that, more or
13 Q. What was, approximately, his age at the time?
14 A. It's difficult to assess somebody's age. I think that at that
15 time he was probably around 35. How old he is now, you can add a bit to
17 Q. Was he taller or shorter than you at that time?
18 A. At that time, well, I didn't compare the two of us, but I think he
19 was a little shorter than me.
20 Q. How tall are you?
21 A. I am 1 metre 82.
22 Q. You said he was dark at that time. What do you mean? Did he have
23 dark hair, dark skin?
24 A. No, not skin. When I say "dark," I mean he had sort of black,
25 dark hair, although of course they're not all pitch black. People have
1 even blacker hair. But he was dark. He had dark hair, not fair hair.
2 That's what I meant.
3 Q. What about his complexion? Was he slim? Was he fat?
4 A. He wasn't fat, no. He had a sportsman's build.
5 Q. Did you notice anything on his hands?
6 A. Only afterwards. Not the first day, but afterwards I noticed that
7 one of his hands was bandaged. He had a bandage.
8 Q. Can you recall which hand was bandaged?
9 A. Well, that would be a little difficult because a lot of time has
10 gone by, so I couldn't tell you with any certainty.
11 Q. Did you know him personally before you arrived in Keraterm?
12 A. I didn't know him personally before, no. I didn't know Mr. Zigic
14 Q. Do you have any knowledge of what his job was before the
15 establishment of the Keraterm camp?
16 A. Well, I knew that he was a taxi driver.
17 Q. Do you know Milenko Zigic?
18 A. I knew Milenko Zigic since childhood. He worked in our warehouse
19 with the construction material.
20 Q. Where?
21 A. He worked in Trnopolje, and later on, prior to the war, he worked
22 in Kamicani.
23 Q. Is there, to your knowledge, any relationship between Milenko
24 Zigic and Zigic, the person you know as Zigic and you saw in Keraterm?
25 A. I know that the other one is his uncle.
1 Q. Milenko Zigic is the uncle of the person you saw in Keraterm; is
2 that correct?
3 A. Yes. Yes, that's correct.
4 Q. Have you ever seen Zigic again after you left Keraterm?
5 A. When I left the Keraterm camp, I never saw Zoran Zigic.
6 Q. Have you ever seen him on TV or in newspapers or in other
8 A. No. No, I did not, either in the newspapers or on television, or
9 in any other circumstances either.
10 Q. Would you be able to identify him today, after eight years?
11 A. Well, let me tell you one thing, a lot of time has gone by and
12 people change. And also he wore a different uniform then. But if you
13 want me to, I'll have a go. I'll try.
14 Q. Can you look around the courtroom, please, and can you tell us
15 whether you recognise anybody sitting in this room as the man named Zoran
17 A. I think, unless I'm mistaken, that Mr. Zigic could be, judging by
18 what I think, the gentleman in the first row with that grey tie and black
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me for interrupting. But
21 could the accused take off their headphones, please, and stand, stand up,
22 all of them. Could you all stand up and take your headsets off.
23 [The accused stand up]
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness, you can get up too to
25 have a better look.
1 [The witness stands up]
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness, you may be seated, and
3 the accused may be seated as well. Thank you very much for your
5 [The accused and witness sit down]
6 MR. PIACENTE: For the record, Your Honour, the identification has
7 been positive.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: No.
9 [Interpretation] Witness, are you sure that you have identified
10 the individual that you spoke of, after having seen the accused standing
11 up, and when you yourself stood up? Are you sure that it is that
12 particular individual?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am 99 per cent certain, because
14 the rest could not be Mr. Zigic.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Okay. You may
16 continue, Mr. Piacente.
17 MR. PIACENTE: Thank you, Your Honour. I apologise for
19 Q. Where were you transferred after Keraterm?
20 A. From Keraterm, I was transferred to the Omarska camp.
21 Q. Can you recall the date?
22 A. Dates are always difficult, you know, because there were times
23 when you didn't actually recall dates unless you wrote them down. And
24 even if you did make a note of them, you couldn't be certain that you were
25 right, because you forget the order in which things happened. But I think
1 that it was up until the 9th of July, thereabouts, until then.
2 Q. How many people were transferred with you from Keraterm to
4 A. To be quite truthful, I didn't count how many of us there were,
5 but the bus was full.
6 Q. Did you travel -- were you driven in only one bus?
7 A. Well, one bus was taken to Omarska at that time.
8 Q. Okay. Who did you see when you arrived in Omarska?
9 A. You know, I saw a lot of people. They were wearing different
10 uniforms. There were even people in civilian clothing.
11 Q. You said also there were people with uniforms. What kind of
13 A. Well, there were military uniforms, then there were police
14 uniforms, and there were even those wearing the olive-green type of
15 uniform worn by the reserve Yugoslav army when they didn't -- weren't
16 wearing their summer uniforms. So they were mixed, mixed types of
18 Q. Did anybody get into the bus when you arrived in Omarska, one of
19 the people you mentioned before?
20 A. Yes, a gentleman did. He got onto the bus through the front
21 door. He went up to the driver and took lists. Because lists were made
22 of all of us. We were -- all our names were on a list. Nobody arrived at
23 the camp without his name being recorded on a list. And this particular
24 gentleman took those lists and cynically he welcomed us to the camp with
25 this cynical smirk, and he said, "Well, it's not every day that you can
1 arrive at Omarska."
2 Q. How was he dressed?
3 A. He was wearing a police uniform.
4 Q. Can you tell us whether you ever knew his name?
5 A. Yes. I learnt his name that same day and all the other days that
6 I spent in the camp. Everybody knew who that man was.
7 Q. Who told you his name?
8 A. Well, on that first day a girl by the name of Hodzic came in, and
9 she told us and advised us how to behave, because she said that the worst
10 group of guards were on duty and that they were led by somebody called
12 Q. To your knowledge, was Krkan the first name, the last name, or a
13 nickname of this person?
14 A. Krkan was a nickname.
15 Q. How could you identify the person who got into the bus as the
16 person this woman talked to you about as Krkan?
17 A. Afterwards, many difficult things took place, deep into the night,
18 and Mr. Krkan played a major role in all these events.
19 Q. Did you see him several times in Omarska?
20 A. Yes, yes. On that particular day he took the roll-call as we got
21 down from the bus, and also when we were taken to interrogation and when
22 we waited in line for death.
23 Q. Okay. Did you get off the bus?
24 A. Yes, I did.
25 Q. Where did you go to?
1 A. We were told to run the gauntlet, made up of people standing in
2 line, the police and the army. That is to say, we had to run from the bus
3 to the "white house," between this cordon, and they would hit us with
4 different objects. But there were too many of them, so they would
5 interfere with each other's blows.
6 Q. When you ran to the "white house," did you find other people who
7 continued to beat you?
8 A. Well, we came and they came after us.
9 Q. Did they beat you?
10 A. They beat us, they stamped on us. We had to sing their songs.
11 Q. Where were you placed when you got into the "white house"?
12 A. In the second room to the right of the entrance to the "white
14 Q. Did you stay in that room that night? I mean, did you stay in
15 that room when you entered? I mean, how long did you stay in that room?
16 A. We stayed in that room until they began calling out our names to
17 take us off for interrogation.
18 Q. Can you tell us, in a correct chronological order, to your
19 recollection, what happened to you after your arrival in Omarska.
20 A. Well, for example, I'll try to give you the sequence of events,
21 although it might not be quite in that sequence, but I'm going to tell you
22 the truth; I'm not going to lie. As soon as we entered the "white house,"
23 when we ran into it, actually, we had to lie down on the floor, all of us.
24 Q. Who ordered you to lie down on the floor?
25 A. Well, at that particular moment, we weren't looking to see who was
1 giving out the orders, but one of the guards or the ones who mistreated us
2 ordered us to lie down. There wasn't enough space, so we had to cram up,
3 one against the other. And we were told to stretch out our hands above
4 our heads, and with our fingers to make the sign, a sign like the sign
5 used when the Serbs pray. It was difficult to do this because there
6 wasn't enough space.
7 Q. Did all of you obey?
8 A. We all obeyed, but it's a little funny, actually, because one man
9 didn't have a finger. He was lacking a finger, so he couldn't press these
10 three fingers together. And they liked that, and then they beat him and
11 they said, "Well, he's fucking around with us. He doesn't want to make
12 this three-fingered sign but only does it with two of his fingers."
13 Q. You mentioned before that you were interrogated. When were you
15 A. They interrogated us straight away, as soon as Mr. Krkan entered
16 and stopped this maltreatment and said, "Now you're going to go out in the
17 order I call you out. You're going to go back the way you came. You're
18 going to follow a policeman," a young man who led us, and we went behind
19 him. That is to say, I went behind him; I followed him.
20 Q. Where did you go to be interrogated?
21 A. I went up onto the floor above the miners' canteen, into the last
22 room on the left-hand side.
23 Q. What happened during your way to the place where you were
25 A. The people who were there -- that is to say, I left very quickly,
1 and some of them started beating me again, jumped up to beat me again. A
2 policeman was sitting down there on a chair and playing around with a
3 knife, and then he pricked me in the stomach.
4 Q. Were you wounded?
5 A. No. Luckily the knife hit the buckle of my belt which I had.
6 Q. What kind of questions were you asked?
7 A. Well, actually, they didn't really ask me any questions, because
8 they had my statement from Keraterm and nothing else.
9 Q. Where were you confined after your interrogation?
10 A. After the interrogation I was led back to Room number 2, on the
11 opposite side from the Room number 2 that I arrived in.
12 Q. Were also the other people who were interrogated placed in that
13 same place?
14 A. Yes. After being interrogated, we all went into this other room
15 so that we would not meddle and mix with those who hadn't been
16 interrogated yet.
17 Q. Were you asked to hand over your money?
18 A. We were not directly asked to hand over our money, but if you
19 think of the list, a piece of paper which Mr. Krkan brought, along with a
20 pencil, after our arrival and placed it in a corner, and he said, "Here
21 you have a piece of paper. All of you are to write down your name, the
22 amount of money or gold or jewellery you have with you. And if you have
23 enough, you'll be spared torture."
24 Q. Can you recall which was the exact moment when Mr. Krkan asked you
25 to put down your names on the paper?
1 A. He didn't ask me personally, but he explained to all of us what he
2 expected us to do. He came towards evening, I think. It wasn't dark
3 yet. I don't know the exact time. And of course I can't remember what
4 happened minute by minute and hour by hour.
5 Q. Was it before or after your interrogation?
6 A. It was after my interrogation.
7 Q. Did you write down your names?
8 A. Yes, of course.
9 Q. Did you have any money at that time or anything valuable?
10 A. I did not. I did not have anything. I didn't even have a watch,
11 because they had taken my watch and my jacket. I had nothing. But nobody
12 gave anything. Nobody had anything to give.
13 Q. So what was the reaction of Krkan when he realised that you only
14 wrote down your names?
15 A. Well, for example, he always acted the same, and I think that he
16 knew what he was doing. And he wasn't like Zigic in Keraterm. He
17 didn't -- he did everything in a routine manner; he wouldn't hit any
19 MR. PIACENTE: Your Honour, now I'm moving to the next matter, to
20 a different matter. If you want, I can keep on examining the witness or
21 if you want to have a break now.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Perhaps it would be better to
23 have a break, so let us have a half-hour break now and we'll reconvene
24 after that.
25 --- Recess taken at 10.56 a.m.
1 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated.
3 Mr. Jovan Simic, it seems that Mr. Prcac doesn't feel well.
4 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. May I just have
5 your leave to approach him.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, do that.
7 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 [Defence counsel and accused confer]
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Jovan Simic.
10 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have a problem,
11 because for some reason, the doctor at the Detention Unit stopped the
12 treatment which has to do with the mental state and the headaches that my
13 client was suffering from. He has splitting headaches. Yesterday he
14 somehow managed to stand it, but today he is in a very bad state. I
15 called the doctor and he said that he would again administer the medicines
16 but that nothing could be done for the moment. And now I'm really at a
17 loss and I am not sure what I should do.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But we can continue without
19 Mr. Prcac. So if he doesn't feel well and if he is not up to staying in
20 the courtroom, we shall proceed without him. Very well. So will somebody
21 in the Registry take the necessary measures?
22 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Prcac says that, yes, if
23 possible, he would like to go and lie down because he is really feeling
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. We shall take the
1 necessary measures. But we have to see whether we can continue in his
2 presence or not -- without his presence or not.
3 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So will somebody help Mr. Prcac
5 to leave. I think he should see his doctor immediately.
6 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, will you do
8 something? He should be taken out immediately. Madam Registrar, will you
9 do something? See if there is a doctor available immediately.
10 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] If I may.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Fila.
13 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I merely wanted to say
14 that Dr. Vera Petrovic is in the Detention Unit. She speaks Serbian, and
15 we have already notified her about his condition. So if he could be
16 transferred back to the Detention Unit immediately, the doctor is already
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] If Mr. Prcac agrees that we
19 continue without his presence, then the registrar should take all the
20 necessary measures immediately. I have already said it twice: The
21 registrar should take all the measures immediately. And if Mr. Prcac
22 agrees, then we shall continue in his absence. If he does not agree, then
23 we shall have to adjourn.
24 Mr. Simic, what is the position?
25 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, we agree that we can continue
1 without his presence. But I should like to seek your leave to leave the
2 courtroom for awhile just to speak to the doctor in the Detention Unit,
3 and then I shall be back.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, you may leave.
5 Madam Registrar, is there somebody in the Registry at the moment
6 who can help?
7 THE REGISTRAR: We have a doctor here. Perhaps I can call her
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Because Mr. Prcac
10 needs to be transferred immediately to the Detention Unit. But if a
11 doctor is present here, he can be examined even before that.
12 Madam Registrar, I shall give the information. What is the result
13 of your efforts?
14 THE REGISTRAR: We have called the doctor and the doctor is coming
15 upstairs. I've asked the usher to go to the elevator and wait for the
16 doctor, and we're going to bring the doctor to the room there.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. We shall then move
18 on. We do not need the usher for the moment, and if we do, we shall
19 resolve it in some other way. But the doctor has been called up, and I
20 think it will be best if the doctor sees Mr. Prcac even before he is
21 transferred back to the Detention Unit.
22 Very well. Shall we proceed, Mr. Piacente? It is up to you.
23 Will you resume, please.
24 MR. PIACENTE: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
25 Q. Had you ever been beaten after your arrival in Omarska?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Were all the other prisoners who were interrogated in the same
3 location you were interrogated beaten after your arrival in Omarska?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. How were you beaten?
6 A. Well, you know, the list that we had made, that is, this list
7 where each one of us wrote his name, Mr. Krkan took this list and then
8 followed down the -- just went down the list, and each one of those
9 persons was beaten.
10 Q. Were you called out from the room you were confined in at that
11 moment to be beaten?
12 A. Yes, I was called out.
13 Q. When was it during the day? Was it dark or was it still light?
14 A. It was in the evening. But I have to describe it to you. There
15 was no electricity in the "white house" at the time. So, for instance, a
16 group of torturers would arrive earlier, headed by Krkan, and they would
17 provide some makeshift lighting in the passageway and in the small room at
18 the end of the passage.
19 Q. So where were the prisoners taken when they were called out to be
21 A. Every individual would be called out and he would have to go to
22 the small room at the end of the passage, and there he would be beaten.
23 Q. Who would call him?
24 A. Mr. Krkan was the one who called out the names.
25 Q. Following the list of names you had previously written down; is
1 that correct?
2 A. It is, yes. On the basis of the list that we had compiled
4 Q. What could you hear after the people were taken out to be beaten?
5 A. We heard only blows, and it was somewhat strange. At least, I
6 found it strange that one couldn't hear a single voice, that one could
7 hear only blows, blows and nothing but blows.
8 Q. How many people were called before you actually were called?
9 A. Over one half of the men who were in that room had been called
10 out, and then there was a break, a longish break of about half an hour or
11 so, and they were discussing something outside. And I felt happy. I
12 thought that would be the end of the torture, but unfortunately they came
13 back and went on calling us out.
14 Q. How many people were confined in the room waiting to be beaten?
15 A. As I have said, I never counted all of us who were there, because
16 that was the last thing we would do, to start counting those present. But
17 more than one half of those men who had been on the bus with me had
18 already been battered, and then my turn came.
19 Q. Could you hear what they said during the break, I mean what the
20 people who would beat the prisoners [Realtime transcript read in error
21 "who were beat by"] said during the break?
22 A. Yes. We could hear them, because it was in front. Later on, when
23 I came out of the "white house," I could see that there was a bench in
24 front of the "white house," and I must have sat there and perhaps had a
25 drink or two. And they were addressing each other by first name and
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the English
14 and French transcripts.
1 seemed to be distributing parts: "Well, you'll do this better and I'll do
2 that," and so-and-so will do that and so-and-so will do this. At any rate,
3 they were discussing how they would go on with the torture.
4 MR. PIACENTE: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I'm reading the
5 transcript. I think there is an oversight in the transcript, because my
6 question was: "Could you hear what they said during the break, I mean
7 what the people who would beat the prisoners said during the break," not
8 "who were beaten by the prisoners." That was my question. And perhaps
9 due to an oversight in the transcript, I read: "I mean what the people
10 who were beat by the prisoners said during the break," which is not what I
11 asked, actually.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for His Honour.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Then ask your question again.
14 Put your question again, and that is how you will get the correction.
15 MR. PIACENTE:
16 Q. So what did you hear from the people who would beat the prisoners
17 during the break?
18 A. Yes. In front of the "white house" they were discussing about how
19 they would work. They distributed the parts, how they would go on beating
20 us; that would be in a nutshell.
21 Q. So you said before you were called, your turn came after the
22 break. Who called you out?
23 A. Krkan was the one who called out the names throughout.
24 Q. Where were you taken?
25 A. I was told to go to that small room to the left, and instinctively
1 I stopped, I hesitated, and then Krkan pushed me slightly and said, "What
2 are you waiting for?" So I entered, or rather I stopped in the doorway
3 and I was ordered to greet them in the Serb way.
4 Q. Who did you see in the room you were taken to?
5 A. In the room to which I was taken I saw then Dule Tadic, Duca.
6 There was one Kevic from Orlovci. There was a guy whom I didn't know, but
7 they addressed him as Babic. And that would be it.
8 Q. And did you -- why did you greet them the Serb way?
9 A. You had to do it. I did, since I had grown up amongst the Serbs,
10 I knew the Serb greeting which my former neighbours used, and I was never
11 ashamed of that. So it wasn't difficult for me to say, "God help you."
12 But they wanted me to say, "God help heroes," because that is the Chetnik
14 Q. Did you finish to greet them the Serb way?
15 A. No sooner did I finish that, I was -- that I was already hit, and
16 a noose was put around my neck and I found myself on the floor. I was
17 falling down.
18 Q. Were you beaten?
19 A. Yes, sure. They went on beating me. I couldn't let out a sound;
20 I merely tried gasping for breath, because they would tighten that noose.
21 If I opened my mouth, they would say, "Hit him again. He is still
22 alive." And they just went on.
23 Q. Which part of your body were you hit?
24 A. I was hit all over, except this left side, because somehow,
25 fortunately, I had fallen on my stomach, so they hit me here in the ribs.
1 They broke my ribs here. My skin split on the back because of the blows.
2 I was bleeding and my skin was cut. I had wounds there and it crusted
3 later on. They beat me all over except on the head.
4 Q. What did they use to beat you?
5 A. Well, from what we could see, because the passage was lit, so that
6 we could see all the props that they had. And they had a baseball bat.
7 They also had a whip made of a cable with some metal balls on it. They
8 had some metal rods. They had quite an array of props.
9 Q. Can you tell us approximately how long did the beating last?
10 A. Well, you see, how long, I really wouldn't know. I do not think
11 anybody knew how long he was beaten.
12 Q. Did you lose your consciousness?
13 A. Yes, I must have, because I had no oxygen. When they were
14 throwing me out from that room to the adjacent room to which I had been
15 taken first when I got off the bus, then I came to and I could see that
16 they had brought me into that room and thrown me over my colleagues who
17 had been beaten before me.
18 Q. When did you gain consciousness?
19 A. During that night I came to, I regained my consciousness several
20 times, but practically I regained my consciousness fully in the morning,
21 when the guards came to check how many of us were in the room, how many of
22 us were dead, I guess, so that they would take us out. At that time I was
23 conscious 100 per cent.
24 Q. How many prisoners could you approximately see in that room?
25 A. Well, say, there, in that position, I was lying among men who were
1 motionless. I do not know if they were dead but they did not move. Since
2 I was lying on my back, I could see that next to the walls of the room,
3 there were several, five or six, men who were leaning with their backs
4 against the wall. But they all kept silent. Everybody was silent.
5 Nobody was saying anything after all that we had gone through.
6 Q. Did any guard come into the room?
7 A. Yes. One of them came in and stepped on us, trampled across us,
8 that is, those who were closest to the door. And then he put his foot on
9 me and I moaned, and he said, "Ha, look, this one's alive, but not for
10 long, though."
11 Q. What happened to the other prisoners?
12 A. Well, those who did not move were taken out after awhile by those
13 inmates who were brought to take them out in front of the "white house."
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Just a moment, Mr. Piacente.
15 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Piacente. Sorry.
17 MR. PIACENTE:
18 Q. Also at that location, did you see at other times during your
19 confinement in Omarska bodies lying down outside the "white house"?
20 A. Yes. For instance, in front of the "white house," I did not see
21 because, I will tell the truth, I could not see the area in front of the
22 "white house," considering the room that I was in. But on other nights,
23 I saw men who had been beaten, put in the same room that I had been in and
24 then being taken away the next morning from that room in front of the
25 "white house."
1 Q. How long did you stay in the "white house"?
2 A. I think not more than five days.
3 Q. Then what happened to you?
4 A. And then on one occasion, for instance, the guards could not stand
5 it because there was such a stench in the "white house," in that room, so
6 that they had to take us. Those who were healthy walked out, and I could
7 not walk so they took me out from the "white house" and left me there in
8 front of it so that the room could be washed.
9 Some friends happened to see me there on the grass in front of the
10 "white house," and they organised a ransom, or at least -- I mean, people
11 were resorting to all sorts of means. They paid the guard to get me out
12 of the "white house" so that if I had to die, that I could at least die
13 next to my brother in another room or with my friends beside me.
14 Q. Did you receive any medical assistance after your beating and
15 during your confinement in Omarska?
16 A. No. Gentlemen, I wasn't even given a sip of water in the "white
17 house," except only once, and I had to drink from some old, black bucket
18 which was used by those who were healthy to urinate. Excuse me for the
19 expression. But you drink this because if you don't do it, then you'll
20 die anyway.
21 Q. Have you ever known Sefik Sivac?
22 A. Sefik Sivac, yes, I knew him. He was a distant relative and a
23 friend, and we had worked together abroad. I also helped him with advice
24 when he built his two restaurants. We grew up together, simply.
25 Q. Was he also confined in Omarska?
1 A. Yes. Yes, he was detained in Omarska.
2 Q. What happened to him?
3 A. Well, one evening he was brought -- thrown into the room, across
4 my -- he fell on my legs, and he died during that night. In the morning,
5 they took him out and he was dead. But he was found subsequently in a
6 hole somewhere and was identified.
7 Q. Do you know what Petrovdan is?
8 A. Yes. St. Peter's Day, Petrovdan, everybody knows it. All the
9 Serbs know it. I think that is one of their important holidays. I marked
10 it with my peers. I used to mark it with my peers and we always looked
11 forward to every St. Peter's Day.
12 Q. Was it celebrated during your confinement in Omarska?
13 A. Well, yes, for the most part. I didn't celebrate it because I
14 experienced some horrific things then. But the Serbs did mark it, did
15 celebrate it. Not fully but to a certain measure, yes.
16 Q. How did the Serbs celebrate Petrovdan?
17 A. Let me try and explain this to you. All Serbs know that on the
18 eve of Petrovdan, bonfires are made, fires are made, and I would do that
19 too when I was a boy. I would light a stick and run along the road and
20 that kind of thing. The bigger the fire, the bonfire, the better. That
21 is how the eve of Petrovdan, the 12th of July, is always celebrated. And
22 the date is always the same; it doesn't change, as far as I know.
23 Q. How did the Serbs celebrate Petrovdan in Omarska, or the eve of
24 Petrovdan in Omarska?
25 A. I was still in the end room, and towards evening a big fire was
1 made in front of the "white house," was lit from the tyres, from the
2 dumper tyres. You know that if you light rubber, the rubber has a
3 stench. When they opened the window in this end room, the smell of the
4 burning rubber came in through the window and almost suffocated us. So we
5 had this smell of burning rubber in the "white house," in the premises
6 that I was in.
7 Q. Did the Serbs say anything to the prisoners?
8 A. At the time, the Serbs, on the eve of Petrovdan, had a real,
9 all-out sort of manifestation rally of civilians and guards. Everybody
10 who was there, they would all walk down the corridors. As night began to
11 fall, they started to take the people out of the first rooms. Nobody was
12 taken out of my room, but we did hear others being taken out. We heard
13 swearing. While they were walking up and down the corridors, they would
14 say, "It will all be --" "Your turn will come too."
15 Q. What did you hear after some prisoners were taken out?
16 A. I remember that, and I'll remember it for the rest of my life, the
17 cries of women who were outside or in the first room. I'll never forget
18 their cries and screams. Then I smelt the stench of burning meat. You
19 know when meat begins to burn, it has a specific smell, and this smell of
20 burning flesh was mixed with the smell of the burning rubber from the
22 Q. Were you told whether prisoners were thrown into the fires?
23 A. Afterwards, I heard about this. I didn't see it and I can't claim
24 that. But I did hear that some of the prisoners were burnt at the stake
25 on the eve of Petrovdan.
1 Q. Let me ask you two more questions before we move to another
2 matter. You said that on your way to the interrogation room someone
3 stabbed you, or, at least, you were not wounded because your belt
4 protected you. Did you identify this person?
5 A. Yes. When I had to go to have my meal, which was given out once a
6 day at Omarska, I saw the same man who was always sitting down in the
7 chair. He seemed to be attached to the chair; he was always there,
8 sitting in front of the "white house." And he was always playing around
9 with a knife.
10 Q. Did you ever know his name or his identity?
11 A. I learnt that his surname was Kvocka, and I remembered him very
13 Q. To your knowledge, did this person have other relatives in the
15 A. I heard tell that he had a brother in the camp. But at the time,
16 while I was in the camp, he was allegedly not there. Although, people
17 said that he would come by from time to time, but I didn't see him. So I
18 cannot claim that I know the individual, that other person, that is to
19 say, his brother.
20 Q. What was the position of the one who stabbed you or tried to stab
22 A. I think he was a guard in front of the "white house." Whether he
23 was the leader of a shift or not, I don't know. A lot of time has gone
24 by, and I didn't really know. I didn't ask around. When I felt better
25 later on, thank God some journalists came to the camp and transferred us
1 to Manjaca.
2 Q. What was the position of the brother of this person?
3 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Krstan Simic.
5 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, according to the
6 indictment, the time linked to Mr. Kvocka is the 30th of June. The
7 witness said that he never saw the man, he didn't speak to him or about
8 him, and I do not see where this line of questioning is leading to, and
9 that it is irrelevant -- and that it is at all relevant to the
10 examination-in-chief of this witness.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Piacente.
12 MR. PIACENTE: Well, Your Honour, I would have directly asked to
13 the witness whether one of the accused today tried to stab him, and I know
14 that he would say no, but I didn't want to ask a leading question. So
15 that's why I was trying to specify through the questions, through his
16 answers, that it was not the current accused who tried to stab him, but it
17 was another one. And if I am allowed, I can ask him directly so that we
18 can spare our time.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I have a reply. Yes, Mr. Krstan
21 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the question can be
22 easily formulated: Is the man who tried to stab you in this courtroom?
23 That would be a simple question, and not to ask questions about a man whom
24 the gentleman did not mention, said he had seen, or had any information
25 about him.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Piacente, ask a direct
2 question, please.
3 MR. PIACENTE: Okay.
4 Q. Was Miroslav Kvocka the one who stabbed you?
5 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Krstan Simic.
7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Mr. Simic. Microphone,
9 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. Yes.
10 The witness at no point mentioned the name Miroslav Kvocka. He
11 mentioned Kvocka. And this question has not been asked in the correct
12 manner, in the proper manner.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Piacente. What do you
14 have to say? Would you like to respond?
15 MR. PIACENTE: I can easily withdraw the question and ask the
16 witness as the Defence counsel suggested.
17 Q. Can you see anybody in this courtroom you would identify as the
18 person who tried to stab you?
19 A. No, gentlemen. The man who wanted to stab me with his knife was
20 bald. That is to say, he did not have any hair.
21 MR. PIACENTE: We can pass to another matter.
22 Q. Going back to Petrovdan, can you specify whether, to your
23 knowledge, the prisoners were burned at stake or thrown into the fire?
24 A. Let me put it this way: I heard from other people afterwards that
25 some of the prisoners were burnt. And I can mention a name, Azur
1 Jakupovic, who disappeared. And another girl, they said that she was
2 burnt too. Whether any other people were burnt, I don't know. I didn't
3 see it and I don't want to lie. I don't want to accuse anybody of doing
4 anything they did not do.
5 Q. Did you see Krkan the eve of Petrovdan?
6 A. Yes, I did see Krkan earlier on, while they were stoking the
7 fire. They were all going up and down that day in the Omarska camp, up
8 and down the corridor, the passageways, but we didn't pay much attention,
9 because, you know, sometimes it's better not to look too much.
10 Q. Did you know Krkan before your arrival in Omarska?
11 A. No, I did not know him before.
12 Q. Have you ever seen him after you were released from Omarska?
13 A. No, I did not see him afterwards either, because I went abroad,
14 and I didn't return.
15 Q. Have you ever seen him on TV or read in the newspapers?
16 A. No, I never had occasion to see him on television, neither did I
17 read the newspapers that I could come across Mr. Krkan's name in them.
18 Q. Can you describe him?
19 A. At that time, on that particular day, and during the time that I
20 met him, I can describe the man who was guilty of breaking my ribs, who
21 was responsible for breaking my ribs and probably for beating up all my
22 co-travellers from the bus we travelled in.
23 Q. So can you tell us how tall was he at the time?
24 A. I think he was about my own height, but he was far fatter. He was
25 strongly built. He had this air of authority about him. And he was
1 calm. He was a cool character, somebody who knew what he was doing.
2 Q. Can you describe us the colour of his hair and whether he had a
3 moustache or a beard?
4 A. He did not have a beard or moustache. As to his hair at the time,
5 I don't think he was as dark as Zigic was. He was more brown-haired. He
6 wasn't as dark. He was not as dark. But that's as far as I can describe
8 Q. Would you be able to identify him today, after eight years?
9 A. I can do the same as in Zigic's case. I can try to say whether
10 that is the man or not, because he has -- his image has become imprinted
11 in my memory and I don't think I'll ever forget his face and the
12 repercussions of his actions, my rheumatism and everything else I suffer
13 for. And I don't need any weather forecast to tell me when the weather is
14 changing. I feel it in my bones.
15 Q. So can you give a look around and say whether you can identify
16 somebody sitting in this courtroom as the man known to you as Krkan?
17 MR. PIACENTE: And with the permission of the Tribunal, if he
18 needs, can the witness stand up so that he can look better?
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, the witness may stand up to
20 have a better view.
21 A. In my opinion -- shall I sit down again? In my opinion, it is my
22 feeling about this that I'm certain 100 per cent that the only person in
23 this room who could be Mr. Krkan is the man wearing a black suit, sitting
24 in the back row, the first next to that policeman over there, on my
25 left-hand side.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness, just wait one moment.
2 I'm going to ask the accused to take their headsets off, if they would be
3 so kind as to oblige, and to stand up.
4 Witness, have you had a good look?
5 A. Yes. I can see well.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. The accused may be
7 seated again. Thank you for getting up.
8 Please continue.
9 MR. PIACENTE: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. Do you confirm your identification after you have seen the accused
11 stand up?
12 A. I am sure that the second -- that it can be no other person in
13 this room other than the one I have described, that Mr. Krkan is the one I
14 described, that it is him, and I am certain 100 per cent. The only thing
15 is that he has changed with respect to weight.
16 MR. PIACENTE: For the record, the identification has been
18 Q. You already described the impact that the injuries you suffered
19 from that beating had on you. Are you still suffering pains or any other
20 disease after that beating?
21 A. Yes, I still suffer, and I don't think it will ever go away. I
22 have pain in my ribs and in my bones whenever the weather changes and I
23 always -- and I suffer from headaches. I never used to have headaches
24 before, but I do now; once again, when there is a change in the weather.
25 Q. What about your rib cage?
1 A. Well, my ribs have healed. I had no medical aid given me in
2 Omarska or Manjaca. There was a detainee who was a doctor there, and he
3 would give us a certain amount of tablets, painkillers, and thanks to the
4 International Red Cross as well. But that was very little and it came too
5 late for me to receive proper therapy and treatment and to have my rib
6 cage set properly again. That would require an operation. So my rib cage
7 has been distorted and it is not something that can be treated anymore.
8 Q. From what you said, I understand that after Omarska you were
9 transferred to Manjaca. Is that correct?
10 A. Yes, that's correct.
11 MR. PIACENTE: No more questions for the moment, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you very much,
14 Mr. Piacente.
15 Mr. Krstan Simic, what is the order of questioning from the
16 Defence teams?
17 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, three Defence teams
18 will be putting their questions to the witness. We will have Mr. Radic's
19 Defence, Mr. Kos' Defence, followed by Mr. Zigic's Defence. The Defence
20 of Mr. Kvocka and Prcac do not have questions of this witness. Thank you.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you very much
22 for already putting the Defence counsel in place. I now give the floor to
23 Mr. Jovanovic, who will begin.
24 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Cross-examined by Mr. Jovanovic:
1 Q. Mr. Icic, good morning to you.
2 A. Good morning.
3 Q. As you have already heard, my name is Zoran Jovanovic. I'm an
4 attorney from Belgrade, and together with my colleague, Mr. Toma Fila, I
5 represent the accused, Mr. Mlado Radic, Krkan.
6 Mr. Icic, you described how you were brought from Keraterm to
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You came by bus?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Do you remember, because you said that the bus was full, anybody
12 else from the bus? Did you know anybody else who was on the bus?
13 A. Yes, I did.
14 Q. Could you tell me the names and surnames of the individuals you
16 A. In the bus I just knew one man from Kozarac. He was a Muslim,
17 Poljak Samir, and that young man survived, but unfortunately I have never
18 had any contacts with him yet after the camp.
19 Q. Very well. I was just interested in knowing the names and
20 surnames of the people you remember.
21 A. He is the only person I can remember. I did not know the others.
22 Q. When the bus arrived, you said that you got off the bus. How many
23 people were in the cordon between the bus and the "white house"?
24 A. I always tell the truth, and I'm going to tell the truth now. I
25 didn't count the number of people, nor could any of us have counted the
1 people. All I can say is that there were a lot of people. There was a
2 long cordon stretching right from the bus to the entrance into the "white
4 Q. Could you tell me perhaps or show me where the bus stopped?
5 A. I can tell you that the bus stopped on the path in front of the
6 grassy patch in front of the "white house" where there were some concrete
7 flower pots. He was on the concrete, a few metres away, so that we had to
8 run from the bus towards the "white house."
9 Q. Your assessment, please. Can you give us an assessment? You say
10 a lot of people. What would that be?
11 A. Well, a lot of people on both sides. I said earlier on, there
12 were a lot of people. There were so many people that they got in each
13 other's way when they were beating us.
14 Q. You mean there were a lot of people?
15 A. Yes, a great many people.
16 Q. You said that Hajra Hodzic went in and told you about Krkan, that
18 A. Yes, I did.
19 Q. Where did this take place?
20 A. She entered that second room after the interrogation, and she
21 said, "I've been here for quite some time. Don't ask anybody for any
22 help. It's no use here." She advised us as to how we should behave in
23 the camp.
24 Q. Did she say anything about Krkan's shift at the time?
25 A. Yes, she did. She said that Krkan's shift was the worst shift in
2 Q. On that occasion?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Mr. Icic, I should now like to remind you of something. You
5 said -- that is to say, you have already been to this Tribunal.
6 A. Yes, that's right.
7 Q. During another trial against the accused Dusko Tadic.
8 A. Yes, that's right.
9 Q. Do you remember what you said at the time, and that you said that
10 under oath?
11 A. Yes, I do remember. I remember what I said, and I will always
12 tell the truth. I will always say it again, I'll repeat it.
13 Q. Did you tell the truth then?
14 A. Yes, I told the truth.
15 Q. If I may, I should like to remind you of something you said on
16 that occasion, and my question is based on that; that is to say, I'd like
17 to ask you to explain the differences, if you note the differences
18 yourself, with respect to what you said then and what you said today.
19 A. Yes, I'll be happy to.
20 Q. Since your arrival in Omarska by bus, from that time on, you were
21 asked: "The soldiers or guards or other Serb forces, were they already
22 waiting for you to arrive, for your arrival, when the bus arrived?"
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And your answer was, "Yes." Then some other questions were asked
25 of you. "Where did the bus stop?"
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And you said, "In the space between the canteen or dining room."
3 A. Yes. That is the concrete space, the concrete area. It is
4 between the dining room and the canteen and the "red house" and the "white
6 Q. The next question, it wasn't in this order but I'd just like to
7 highlight that next question to you, "How were the prisoners called out to
8 get out of the bus?"
9 A. The prisoners were called out on the basis of the list that was
10 brought from Keraterm.
11 Q. Did you walk quickly? Did you run?
12 A. Well, when each of us was called out, we ran so that we could get
13 into the "white house" as quickly as possible, because if you went slowly,
14 you'd be beaten more. So that's quite logical.
15 Q. So from there you went to the "white house"?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And that was the context in which this question was asked.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. The question is the following: "And then later on, somebody else
20 came into the room." Your answer was "Yes." The next question was, "Who
21 was that person?" and your answer was "Krkan." Then the next question
22 was, "Did you know at the time who Krkan was?" and your answer was "No."
23 A. And I did not know at that time. When Krkan was in the corridor
24 and when he called us out from the bus, I didn't know who he was. I still
25 maintain that. I am speaking the truth.
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the English
14 and French transcripts.
1 Q. Was that the first time you saw Krkan?
2 A. Yes. I saw him in the bus for the first time, on the steps of the
3 bus, beside the driver, when he entered the bus.
4 Q. Why did you not say that earlier on?
5 A. Well, I'll explain that to you. I answered the questions as they
6 were posed. And I was asked to be brief, just to give brief answers of
7 yes or no, and if necessary, to explain things in great -- if I'm asked to
8 explain things in greater detail, then I'll do so. So if you ask me today
9 to give more elaborate explanations, I will be happy to do so.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Keegan.
11 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour. I'm reluctant to object during
12 examination, but it appears from a review of the transcript that, in fact,
13 this counsel is misleading the witness as to what that transcript says.
14 There does not appear to be any inconsistency in the story. The
15 transcript indicates after they came back, then this incident with Krkan
16 happened. So I believe, in fact, this is a misrepresentation of the facts
17 in the transcript.
18 I would ask that if counsel is going to refer to a transcript,
19 before he asks a question, he cite the page and the line so that, indeed,
20 we can make an objection at the appropriate time, which would be before
21 the question is put to the witness. Thank you.
22 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] It is page 9 of the transcript in
23 B/C/S. So my question was, and then somebody -- "Later on, did someone
24 come into the room?" And that is line 4.
25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's comment: Page 2833, line 6.
1 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] "And later on, did someone ..." I
2 think there is a difference. I shall continue with the same set of
3 questions, if I may.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Keegan, are you satisfied?
5 Have you found it?
6 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour. We had the reference before, we
7 had found it. The point was, I would have objected before, because we're
8 now three or four questions down from where I believe the question
9 actually began, the misrepresentation started, and I would have objected
10 then had I been given the citation right away.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Jovanovic,
12 please move on.
13 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Q. The question was, "Had you heard about Krkan from any other
15 detainees in the 'white house' that day, and how did you learn about
16 that?" You also said on that occasion that it was Hajra Hodzic who told
17 you, or rather that she had told someone else and that that was how you
18 learned it.
19 A. Yes, that is the truth.
20 Q. After that, the question that had to do with his position and
21 office, you said that he was the head of the guard shift or the commander
22 of the guards.
23 A. That was my assumption, my guess. What function he had or what he
24 does today, I do not know.
25 Q. The next question was, "Did Krkan bring anything with him?" and
1 you answered, "Yes, --"
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. "-- he brought a clean piece of paper and a pencil."
4 A. He did.
5 Q. Was that the first time that you saw Krkan in the "white house"?
6 A. It was the third time I saw Krkan, because he was the one who
7 called our names in the bus.
8 Q. No. I'm asking about the "white house."
9 A. Yes. In the "white house" -- no, because he was the one who was
10 calling us out for interrogation. And the third time, he came with this
11 sheet of paper for us to write down our names.
12 Q. You then explained what you were to do with this sheet of paper
13 and pencil.
14 A. Yes, he did.
15 Q. But you did not tell us about the previous roll-call from the list
16 that he had with him.
17 A. Well, nobody asked me about that. If you do, then I'll explain
18 it. If somebody asks for it, whatever I'm asked to say, I will say. If
19 you do not ask me, if you do not ask a question, then I just tell you the
20 truth and otherwise keep my mouth shut.
21 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour. I wanted to wait until
22 Mr. Jovanovic had the opportunity to finish the question so I could fully
23 understand what he is attempting to do, and I believe in fact he is
24 misrepresenting the facts of the prior testimony. It appears he's
25 attempting to use the prior testimony to somehow impeach the witness'
1 testimony today. But what he has not made clear, and that again is the
2 danger of this, is he didn't start off by indicating that, in fact, the
3 transcript in the Tadic case jumped from event to event and not
4 necessarily in the proper sequence. Because when he spoke of Hajra
5 Hodzic, he admitted the opening phrase within that answer which said, "At
6 the time before anybody tortured us, this woman came in and told us,"
7 which is entirely consistent with what he said today. But previous to
8 that, counsel in the Tadic case had talked about the interrogation. He
9 had not gone in the order of events.
10 Counsel today is attempting to use the transcript, and by phrasing
11 his questions in a certain way, he is trying to mislead the evidence given
12 on that day. Again, this is the problem of using prior transcripts if
13 either the transcript is not going to be admitted so the Chamber can judge
14 that for themselves, or if counsel are not clear with what they intend to
15 do with these questions. Because it is unfair to the witness to try and
16 use this transcript by not representing the full questioning and try to
17 confuse him and somehow try to impeach him. So we would object to this
18 line of questioning.
19 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm reading the transcript.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me. The interpretation
21 into French was not finished yet, so I had to wait for it.
22 Yes, Mr. Jovanovic.
23 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I am quoting from the transcript
24 of the proceedings against the accused Tadic, and I did not understand
25 that the objection of the Prosecutor was that I was reading it wrongly or
1 misinterpreting it. All the questions that were put to the witness then,
2 I simply read them as they are indicated in the transcript, and the same
3 relates to answers.
4 In the beginning of my cross-examination, I already said that I
5 would be pointing out to the witness the discrepancies that exist only
6 with a view to having him explain these discrepancies, and he has already
7 explained it. He said that nobody asked him certain things at that time.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Keegan.
9 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour. I am exactly objecting to the way
10 that this transcript is being read and being interpreted, because he is
11 selectively reading parts of answers. The minimum proper procedure would
12 be to read the question and the full answer, which would at least be less
13 misleading. He's put on this -- at the beginning of his question, he's
14 said, "There are contradictions." Well, that is a presumption or
15 conclusion of counsel, not a fact. By stating that in the beginning and
16 then selectively reading from the transcript rather than discussing fully
17 the events, he is in fact attempting to confuse and mislead the witness
18 and this Bench. That is exactly the nature of our objection.
19 The witness already indicated he answered the questions that were
20 asked on that day, just as he did today. He didn't answer things that he
21 wasn't asked, and he tried to answer those questions that were asked.
22 It's clear from the reading of this transcript that the events were
23 addressed in a different order, not chronologically.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Could you slow down, Mr. Keegan, please.
25 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, sorry. Therefore, we think this is a misleading
1 and improper cross-examination.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. Jovanovic, could you
3 please put your question as follows: Today you told us that. In the
4 transcript you said that. Now, which is the correct version? Could you
5 phrase your question in that manner? I think it will be much more clear
6 for the witness.
7 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, of course, Your Honour. That
8 was my intention.
9 Q. Mr. Icic, how were you examined in the Tadic case in 1996 and
10 now? Is there any difference?
11 A. Well, I think there is a certain difference. I mean, every man
12 has his own method. But basically, the substance of the events and the
13 time when they happened -- I mean, when I say one thing and they take me
14 back to what happened before, it doesn't really matter, because I cannot
15 change the events as they occurred, no matter how you ask me.
16 Q. Right. But today you told us that two people who were in that
17 room, Hajra Hodzic had said who Krkan was and warned about his shift?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. In the proceedings against the accused Dusko Tadic, that is, page
20 24 of the transcript, line 12 in the B/C/S version, you said: "At that
21 time when I was in Omarska, I learnt only after I had left the 'white
22 house' that Krkan's shift was one of the worst." Now, which is the
23 correct version?
24 A. Both are correct, because from Hajra Hodzic I learned that day
25 that Krkan's shift was the worst, and only at a later stage did I learn
1 that Krkan was indeed the man who was always there and who always was in
2 command when I went through what I did go through. That is, the event is
3 the same. Perhaps you can change a certain sequence, but --
4 Q. No, no, no. I only asked you to explain to me the discrepancies,
5 nothing else.
6 A. No, but the impression they are getting --
7 Q. Never mind. Let us leave aside the transcript for a moment, and I
8 will ask you certain things about what you told us when examined in
10 When did you arrive? What time of the day was it when you arrived
11 in Omarska?
12 A. Omarska? I don't know what time it was. I know it was the
13 morning, but what time it was, I don't know.
14 Q. No. Before noon is quite enough. Thank you. And the incidents
15 that you described in the "white house," when did they happen?
16 A. You mean the beatings?
17 Q. Yes.
18 A. Beatings took place in the evening, after the night fell.
19 Q. So it was already dark, was it?
20 A. Oh, yes, it was well into the night. They put up some improvised
21 lighting in the passage. I think that when I was beaten, it must have
22 been already past 10.00 or perhaps even 11.00.
23 Q. Is that what you are saying?
24 A. Yes. I think it was 10.00 or 11.00. I didn't have a watch, but
25 just so that you do not accuse me of saying whatever.
1 Q. Very well. Very well. Thank you. You told us that you were
2 unfortunately beaten and you explained the room that it happened in.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Could you please describe the room to us.
5 A. Yes, I can do that. It was a small room, as wide as the passage,
6 and I think it was about the same length too.
7 Q. In the Tadic case you described it in greater detail during the
8 cross-examination, so will you please do that again. What was the size of
9 the room exactly?
10 A. Well, I remember it very well. The Defence counsel insisted on my
11 admitting that it was the bathroom. I still insist that it was not the
12 bathroom, that perhaps it was meant as a bathroom.
13 Q. The size. I'm asking about the size, not about the purpose.
14 A. Well, it could have been about 2.5 times 2.5 metres perhaps. Of
15 course, I didn't measure it with a metre, so I cannot say, but 2.5 by 2.5.
16 Q. Very well. How many men beat you on that occasion? You gave us
17 some names, but ...
18 A. Well, when I came, there were five men in there. Krkan had stayed
19 behind. He calls out names, but then he stays behind. And then the man
20 put that noose around my neck. Now, whether they beat me all or not, I
21 don't know. I did not feel it anymore.
22 Q. So you mean there were five men inside and you were the sixth?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Was there any room for anything?
25 A. You know, in Omarska, there wasn't room for anything anywhere, for
1 us to sit down or lie down properly, but it all took place according to
2 the plan. We were beaten, killed. Whether there was enough room, well
3 that -- because they had enough room for them. They found enough room for
5 Q. Very well. Very well. Thank you. You also told us about the
6 religious holiday, Petrovdan, St. Peter's Day.
7 A. I did, yes.
8 Q. And you described it to us. But now I must ask you to be more
9 specific. What you told us before in that earlier trial, and today, is it
10 your indirect knowledge or is it something that you knew firsthand? That
11 is, there is a difference between what you saw and what you heard from
13 A. What I saw, I could see the flash of light in the passage, because
14 the fire outside was lighting the passage. And I could smell tyres
15 burning and after that the burning flesh. But I did not see, and I am not
16 affirming that somebody was thrown into that fire.
17 Q. But you heard some women cry?
18 A. Yes, and I shall never forget it. From the first room --
19 Q. No, no, no. But you said that those women were from the first
21 A. Some women were in the first room, but were those women crying
22 from the first room or --
23 Q. No, no, no. Just tell me how many women were there in the first
24 room and whether you know any one of them.
25 A. No. I did not go into the first room and I do not know how many
1 women there were and I'm not going to say that I do know that.
2 Q. But were they there when you arrived in the "white house"?
3 A. I did not see anyone to recognise, but there were women in the
4 first room to the right, as we ran into the house. But how many and who
5 was there, Hajra Hodzic unfortunately is already gone. Had she survived,
6 she would have been able to describe exactly what was going on there.
7 Q. But when you came to the "white house," did you see them or is it,
8 again, secondhand knowledge?
9 A. Well, at first glance, one could see, because the door was open.
10 But I shall tell you frankly: I did not see. I could just cast a
11 glance. But how many women were there in it and whether I saw anyone in
12 that first room in the "white house," I cannot really tell you. I'm not
13 saying that. And those cries could have been within the "white house,"
14 that is, that first room, or without the "white house." At any rate,
15 those were hair-raising screams.
16 Q. You told us about how that bonfire was being prepared.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And Krkan was present?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What time of the day was it?
21 A. Well, they were preparing the bonfire in late afternoon. There
22 was still some daylight. The night hadn't fallen yet.
23 Q. And the bonfire --
24 A. Well, you know, tyres go up in flames in no time at all.
25 Q. But when did you see it? When did you see the reflections of the
2 A. Well, you can see reflections from the fire only when the night
3 falls, when the darkness falls. By daytime you can't see it.
4 Q. So was it night?
5 A. Yes, it was already nighttime when I saw those reflections of the
7 Q. What time was it?
8 A. I don't know what time it was. I didn't have a watch.
9 Q. Mr. Icic, you wrote a text in your own hand.
10 A. No. I just wrote a note. It was a note. It's something I wrote
11 down so as not to forget. So it was something -- when I remembered
12 something, I simply noted it down, perhaps not necessarily in the normal
14 Q. Yes. Sorry I have to interrupt you, but is the information there
16 A. There is certain information which I noted down which I had
17 heard. What I had heard, I do not claim that that is correct. And the
18 information, when I say that I know this and that is so, then that is so.
19 But it must say somewhere approximately that many men, because, you know,
20 you hear it from people who come out, because they were being executed --
21 Q. Now, I just want to know one thing, one thing that you noted down
22 here, and that is that on that occasion of St. Peter's Day, on Petrovdan,
23 in front of the "white house," they had piled up -- it is page 180 of the
24 text in B/C/S. In front of the "white house" they had piled up a number
25 of dumper tyres, poured some fuel, set them on fire, and then began to
1 beat people, and every beaten person who was still alive would end up in
2 the bonfire and would burn together with the tyres. And that evening,
3 according to others, they killed 250 people who were not guilty of
5 A. That is what I noted, but that was according to stories, and
6 stories can be anything. If I tell you a story that I heard from somebody
7 else, that is a different matter.
8 Q. What you are saying now, does it concern only the figure of 250 or
10 A. No. All that I heard, I do not claim that there were as many, but
11 you can check it on the basis of lists and from people who came to
12 Omarska, because they all arrived in Omarska on the basis of lists.
13 Nobody came outside those lists. And everybody knows how many men were
15 Q. Right. I'm going to ask you another thing, and far be it for me
16 to try to say that you are not telling the truth, but will you please tell
17 us: On that occasion when you wrote this down -- and I should like to
18 know the reason why you did that -- who advised you to write it down? And
19 also, in the Tadic case and today, are you telling the truth?
20 A. I am telling the truth and I shall always tell the truth.
21 Q. Thank you. Who advised you to write this down?
22 A. Nobody advised me to write this down, because this is not a
23 letter, it is not a book.
24 Q. But whose advice was it?
25 A. Nobody's advice. Let me tell you briefly: In Manjaca we had a
1 detainee --
2 Q. No, no, no. You don't have to go into that. Thank you. And once
3 again, will you please remember: Who advised you to write this down?
4 A. Yes, I know what you are telling me. I have a friend -- I had a
5 friend who said that he was a psychiatrist, but he wasn't, and he advised
6 me to write things down, and that was it.
7 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Jovanovic.
9 Yes, Mr. Nikolic.
10 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we do not have any
11 questions for this witness.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 Mr. Stojanovic.
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, we shall have
15 some questions.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please. How long
17 will you need, Mr. Stojanovic, more or less?
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I should say not more than 20
19 minutes and not less than 10.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Then perhaps it
21 would be better to make a break now and then we shall come back for your
22 cross-examination. All right. A half-an-hour break.
23 --- Recess taken at 12.54 p.m.
24 --- On resuming at 1.36 p.m.
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.
1 Before we begin the cross-examination which is going to be
2 conducted by Mr. Stojanovic, Mr. Jovan Simic, are you going to give us an
3 update on the health of Mr. Prcac? What has happened to him?
4 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Mr. Prcac has
5 been transferred to the Detention Unit, and the latest information that I
6 have received is that a doctor is seeing him. But I don't know any
7 details. We shall know more in about an hour's time. Round about 2.30 I
8 am going to call again to see how he is.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Was he seen by a doctor before
10 he left for the Detention Unit? Did a doctor examine him here before he
11 left the Tribunal?
12 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] As far as I know, no, but I cannot
13 claim that because that is the information that I received from one of the
14 guards. Thank you.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, was Mr. Prcac
16 seen by a physician before he left for the Detention Unit?
17 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. The usher actually brought the doctor to see
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. I can see that
20 Mr. Stojanovic and Mr. Tosic are in their proper places for the
22 Mr. Stojanovic, your witness. You may begin.
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, thank you.
24 Cross-examined by Mr. Stojanovic:
25 Q. Witness, Mr. Icic, let me introduce myself. My name is Slobodan
1 Stojanovic, attorney from Belgrade, and I have my colleague Mr. Simo
2 Tosic, from Banja Luka, here with me, and together we make up the Defence
3 team of Mr. Zigic at this trial.
4 You mentioned a detail concerning your brother, Zigic, and the
5 passport that was torn up, and then you said that your brother died. How
6 did your brother die?
7 A. Unfortunately, I don't know how my brother died. All I know is --
8 all I heard is that the Serbs organised a convoy of 250 people which left
9 from Trnopolje and disappeared at Vlasic, and nobody knows to the present
11 Q. Yes, but this did not take place in Keraterm, did it?
12 A. No, he did not die in Keraterm.
13 Q. You also informed us that you were put up in Room number 2. Can
14 you tell us something in greater detail? Which part of the room?
15 A. I was in Room number 2, behind -- at the end of the room, along
16 the wall at the back.
17 Q. Can you tell us how large that room was? You don't have to give
18 us the exact surface area, but how large was it?
19 A. Well, it might have been 15 metres long. It used to be a
20 warehouse and then it was divided up with a wire. And I think that it was
21 almost that wide as well, approximately speaking, of course.
22 Q. Thank you. If I understood you correctly, on that same evening
23 Mr. Zigic called some people out, the evening you arrived.
24 A. Yes. That same evening he called out some people.
25 Q. Was he standing at the entrance?
1 A. Well, there is a certain order to these events. He first came by
2 car. He would arrive by car in front of the "white house," [as
3 interpreted] and then they did something in that first room. Whether he
4 did something or somebody else, but there was a crowd there. Then he came
5 in with a group of people. He rushed in, he stormed in, and then the
6 incident with the shooting occurred. Then people were called out and
7 there were blows, and then he would bring in cigarettes. So that's the
8 kind of thing that went on.
9 Q. Yes, thank you, you told us that. Do you happen to recall the
10 car? What type of car was it, the make, what it looked like?
11 A. You could see the car from the front. It was a Mercedes. I could
12 see the Mercedes star. It was rather dirty, dusty. But I think it was a
13 white Mercedes.
14 Q. At that time in the room, was there any lighting in the room that
15 you were in?
16 A. At that time in the room I was in, there was no lighting.
17 Q. How did you arrive at the conclusion that Zigic was the man
18 calling people out, that that was his name? How did you know that? How
19 did you learn that?
20 A. Well, I said that at the time, when he brought cigarettes in, he
21 introduced himself. He said, "Your Ziga won't let you have a hard time of
22 it." So he brought the cigarettes in.
23 Q. Was that incident with the cigarettes after the incident?
24 A. The cigarettes took place afterwards to calm us down when he
25 called us out, to make business of some kind.
1 Q. So afterwards you learnt that it was a man by that surname.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did you personally see the beating of those people?
4 A. No, I did not see this personally. I don't want to lie. I heard
5 the blows but I didn't see them actually being administered.
6 Q. You mentioned a certain person of Albanian ethnicity who was the
7 owner of the Zvjezdas cafe. Did that incident take place the same evening
8 you arrived?
9 A. Let me explain this to you. There were two people in that room;
10 one of them was the owner, and he would be taken out and beaten, and then
11 there was another one as well. Whether they took him out the same night,
12 I don't know. I'm not 100 per cent sure. I don't think he was taken out
13 that same night.
14 Q. When was that?
15 A. The Zvjezdas person was taken out on the second night.
16 Q. We heard today that one person never returned after he was taken
17 out by -- called out by Zigic. In some earlier statements, and I'm sure
18 you will remember that you gave several statements --
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. -- there is another observation of that kind. It was the
21 statement of the 25th of July, 1994.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Stojanovic, perhaps you
23 should clarify which statement you mean. Tell the witness. Because we
24 spoke about the statement made during the Tadic trial. So in order to
25 help the witness understand which statement you mean, perhaps you should
1 be more precise.
2 Mr. Keegan.
3 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, sir, as long as he just doesn't mention the
4 actual place where the statement was taken. Just refer to it as the place
5 where he currently resides. Just so we don't get into any issues of
6 redactions, Your Honour. That's all.
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. That will be sufficient.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Bear that in mind, please,
9 Mr. Stojanovic.
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 Q. I'm going to read a portion of that sentence. "As far as I know,
12 two people did not return to the warehouse after Zigic maltreated them. I
13 saw their bodies personally a day later when I was allowed to go out to
14 the toilet. However, I cannot say whether they died as the result of
15 Zigic's maltreatment."
16 A. I claim that I did not see him kill them then, at that time. But
17 I do know that the person did not return and that the two men were there.
18 Q. Do you still maintain this statement: "I cannot state whether
19 they died as the result of Zigic's abuse"?
20 A. I cannot say because I didn't actually see him kill them.
21 Q. You also said that you know that a certain Milenko Zigic is the
22 uncle of Zoran Zigic. How do you happen to know this fact?
23 A. Well, let me put it this way: We all know each other. I don't
24 know if you come from Yugoslavia. I'm sure you know the mentality of our
25 people and that people know each other. It's different than here in the
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the English
14 and French transcripts.
1 West; everybody knows each other. So we know each other much better than
2 people do in the West.
3 Q. So from talks; is that right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Through family and friends; is that correct?
6 A. Yes, that's right.
7 Q. You described your sufferings in a rather lengthy piece of
9 A. Yes. I did that -- I wrote that to help pass the time. It's not
10 a book; it's a sort of report or something like that.
11 Q. Am I incorrect in saying that you did not mention the incident
12 with Bahonjic in your report?
13 A. Well, I think that I did make a note of that, but if you didn't
14 find it in my writings -- I'm sure it must be there somewhere.
15 Q. Are you sure? Because I don't want to burden the Trial Chamber
16 with the whole material.
17 A. I am certain that there is mention made of Bahonjic. And let me
18 tell you that I wrote what I wrote and described some of the incidents.
19 They weren't in order of sequence, in order of events.
20 Q. Do you allow for the possibility that you mentioned the event but
21 didn't mention the name of Bahonjic?
22 A. I think that Bahonjic is definitely inside somewhere, that the
23 name is mentioned somewhere.
24 Q. In your previous statements, did you happen to mention that at the
25 same time a certain person called Duca would call people out and abuse
2 A. Yes. Duca would do this every day, just like Mr. Zigic. He would
3 come to Keraterm every day. They were two groups. And for us inmates of
4 the camp, they instilled fear in us. They chilled our blood.
5 Q. Is that true of people from Room 2?
6 A. Yes, Room 2 and Room 1. They would go by at random. Sometimes
7 they would beat them together or one by one, but those two groups did the
8 same type of business, went about their business in the same way.
9 Q. We heard that this happened in the first two days after your
11 A. Yes, that's correct, but it happened every day, except that I paid
12 more attention to it those first two days and wrote it down. But it
13 happened in Keraterm all the time, every day.
14 Q. So this was on the same day; both groups would work on the same
16 A. Yes. Both groups were present on the same day. One group would
17 go to the other room, in front of the other room; the other group would
18 come to my room, our room. And we thought: Well, it's all over, they've
19 left. But they came back.
20 Q. Can we pinpoint the time, perhaps? Was this in the evening or
21 night or when?
22 A. These events, the shooting and everything else, everything -- the
23 selling of cigarettes, everything took place at night.
24 Q. It was dark?
25 A. Yes, it was dark.
1 Q. Did you hear from others that he was a taxi driver?
2 A. Well, yes. Your client perhaps knows. It was his best friend,
3 Jaroslic [phoen], who was together with me. I don't want to say anything
4 more. I'm sure he remembers him. And he was in the camp with me. He was
5 in three camps. I didn't mention him, but I would like to take advantage
6 of this opportunity, because he asked me, upon leaving, that I mention
7 him. And now I have been given the opportunity, I have mentioned his
9 Q. In an earlier statement, you said -- did you hear that Zigic and
10 Duca had died?
11 A. Yes. We heard all sorts of stories. All sorts of stories were
12 bandied about, that they had gone to the battlefield and were killed
13 there. People said lots of things. There were different stories going
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just one moment, if
16 I may. I think that there has been an error in the transcript, that Zigic
17 came to in front of the "white house." This referred to Keraterm and it
18 was Room number 2. So could we put that right through the question. The
19 witness' answer was yes. So there was an error.
20 A. No, I did not see him in front of the "white house."
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. We have
22 no further questions, but we should like to tender some documents into
23 evidence. They are documents which refer to the previous identification
24 conducted by the Prosecution. There are two documents. One is a
25 corrected list. Would you like me to identify them on the basis of their
1 date? But I would like to tender both documents and to note that it says
2 that this witness was not able to identify Mr. Zigic on the basis of the
3 photo display.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Stojanovic, I don't see the
5 use you have made of these documents during the cross-examination. You
6 did not refer to those documents during the cross-examination. Did you or
7 did you not? Did you bring them up?
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, I didn't, Your Honour, but I
9 think that this is a specific piece of evidence which we can tender
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You can ask the question, and
12 you should ask the question, because a document can -- here we have a
13 document and we don't know why. Just go ahead and ask your question.
14 Mr. Keegan.
15 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour. I was waiting to hear the full
16 explanation before I objected, but could we also see what he's referring
17 to so we have some idea what he's going to show the witness first?
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Stojanovic.
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, of course. I just have
20 these two copies in English. And if I may, Your Honour, in thanking you
21 for your assistance, I should like to ask the witness whether previously,
22 on the part of the Prosecution, he was interviewed with respect to the
23 photo board and the identification of Mr. Zigic.
24 A. I know that on one occasion -- I don't remember 100 per cent which
25 team came to me, but they asked me whether I would be willing to identify
1 somebody on the basis of photographs. I said, "Well, you know what,
2 photographs are very tricky business, and I don't want to accuse somebody
3 who is innocent, because photographs can change. People change from one
4 day to the next, and photographs very often are very different."
5 Q. Did you accept this procedure and did you, nonetheless, take a
6 look at those photographs?
7 A. Yes. I looked at the pictures on the table, but I didn't want to
8 say. Quite simply, I didn't want to say who was who, because I explained
9 to them that pictures for me are very tricky business and they can change,
10 just like people change in a year's time. Somebody looks quite different
11 from one year to the next, especially on a picture.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that this is
13 sufficient introduction for us to be able now to tender the documents.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Stojanovic, I wasn't
15 thinking of allowing you to admit the document. I wanted you to use the
16 document to ask the questions. And once we -- you ask the questions, we
17 don't need the document anymore.
18 Mr. Keegan, I think that you would like to communicate something
19 to us.
20 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, I was just going to indicate that we
21 first want to hand them back in case you wanted to show them to the
22 witness, but we have the standing objection to the summary report which we
23 prepared as an aide-memoire for the Defence. The report itself, if it's
24 going to be used, should at least be shown to the witness. Although it's
25 in English, he could at least identify potentially that these are the
1 photographs he was shown. But indeed the information has been elicited,
2 which is that, as indicated, he looked at the photograph for a minute and
3 said, "I cannot say anything just from the pictures," so which I think is
4 the information already elicited.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. I think that the witness
6 has already stated, "Yes, I was shown a series of photos," but that he
7 didn't want to risk incriminating anybody without being certain that it
8 was them.
9 Have you got any more points on this, Mr. Stojanovic? Because
10 that's the end of the story. We don't need the document.
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I accept
12 completely what you said and Mr. Keegan interpreted this in the proper
13 way. And I think that we all agree. The witness was there. So thank you
14 very much to you, Your Honours, and to the witness.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you,
16 Mr. Stojanovic.
17 Mr. Keegan, any additional questions? I don't know if any other
18 Defence counsel wishes to put any questions to the witness.
19 Mr. Piacente, perhaps. I do apologise, Mr. Piacente. Do you have
20 any further questions? Mr. Piacente, any further additional questions?
21 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour. I just want to clear up, are any
22 other counsel going to cross-examine?
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I don't think so. Mr. Krstan
24 Simic announced Mr. Fila, Mr. Kos. Mr. Nikolic said he wouldn't be asking
25 any questions, and so we finished up with Mr. Stojanovic. Is that not
2 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there are no further
3 questions from the other Defence teams.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
5 Mr. Piacente, any additional questions from you?
6 MR. PIACENTE: A few only, Your Honours. Thanks.
7 Re-examined by Mr. Piacente:
8 Q. Mr. Icic, going back to the Albanian prisoner and Emsud, did you
9 hear Zigic call them out?
10 A. Yes. Yes. I did hear him being called out.
11 Q. Did you see them take out -- being taken out?
12 A. Yes. The Albanian went out.
13 Q. And Emsud?
14 A. They took Emsud out too because he wasn't capable of walking on
15 his own two feet.
16 Q. Could you hear sounds of blows and screams after they were taken
17 out, called out?
18 A. Yes, yes, because there was general silence and then you could
19 hear that. Yes, I heard them.
20 Q. Only Emsud was taken back to Room number 2; correct?
21 A. Yes, they took Emsud back at that time, just in front of the
22 door. And then his friends took him back to his old place where he had
23 been before.
24 Q. Did you see the corpse of the Albanian?
25 A. I saw the bodies on the heap a little further off from the
1 building. But whether it was the body of the Albanian there or somebody
2 else's body, I cannot say for certain.
3 Q. After the night or the day the Albanian was called out, you didn't
4 see him any more?
5 A. No, I didn't see him any more.
6 MR. PIACENTE: No more questions. Thank you, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,
8 Mr. Piacente.
9 Judge Fouad Riad, any questions?
10 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
11 Questioned by the Court:
12 JUDGE RIAD: Good morning, Mr. Icic.
13 A. Good morning.
14 JUDGE RIAD: I have a few clarifications to ask you to visualise
15 more your experience, your sad experience in the camps. I'll start from
16 the end because it's more present now in your mind, when the Defence
17 lawyers cross-examined you.
18 First, the last one was Mr. Stojanovic speaking about -- defending
19 Zigic, and he said that two men were taken out by Mr. Zigic and did not
20 return afterwards and you saw them dead afterwards. But you cannot affirm
21 that they died as a result of Zigic's maltreatment. Now, did you see them
22 maltreated by Zigic or just taken out by Zigic?
23 A. No. I always claim that I didn't see Zigic kill them. That is
24 what I state. But I am sure that he called them out. Whether he beat
25 them there or somebody else beat them there, I didn't see that. I didn't
1 see what happened.
2 JUDGE RIAD: So in other circumstances, did you see Zigic himself
3 beating people?
4 A. No. The circumstances when Zigic beat people was when he came
5 into a room and when he took potshots and when he hit my brother, and then
6 I saw him hitting directly. But when he took people out, we weren't able
7 to see, so I did not see him. I cannot say that other people didn't see,
8 but I myself didn't see him hit anybody outside. But you could hear the
9 sound of blows.
10 JUDGE RIAD: As soon as he took them out you could hear the blows?
11 A. Yes. When they went out -- as soon as they had gone out, you
12 could hear the blows and screams and cries and all the rest of it.
13 JUDGE RIAD: You spoke about Emsud Bahonjic, when he called him
14 out, and he was brought back and thrown, completely motionless --
15 A. Yes, yes.
16 JUDGE RIAD: -- and the other Albanian. You spoke of your
17 brother. Did your brother die?
18 A. Yes, my brother died but not --
19 JUDGE RIAD: I know, but did he die as a result of also being
20 called out?
21 A. No, no.
22 JUDGE RIAD: How did he die?
23 A. I have already explained. My brother was taken out from the
24 convoy at Vlasic, and that's where he died.
25 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you. Now, when Zigic went into the room and
1 shot and somebody was hurt by a ricochet, why did he do that? Was he
2 provoked by the people in the room? Was there any fighting, any revolt,
3 in your room?
4 A. No, no. Us prisoners never provoked anyone. Mr. Zigic, as soon
5 as he turned up at the door, he was already shouting and swearing. And
6 his speciality was to order us to draw back to the back wall where I was,
7 so we would all pile up against each other. We would do this in a hurry,
8 and we were almost trampled over by the people in front of us because they
9 were so frightened.
10 JUDGE RIAD: From your observation, Mr. Zigic was leading the
11 whole people around him? Was he the driving person of the whole
13 A. As far as I'm concerned, he was the leader of the group which
14 terrorised people, beat them up. He was the leader of that group, in my
15 mind -- to my mind.
16 JUDGE RIAD: Would he tell people to do things or not to do
18 A. Well, you know, he didn't say who had to do what. He just swore
19 and cursed, and then they knew the order of things that should be done.
20 But he didn't actually say what should be done.
21 JUDGE RIAD: Now, I would like to ask you about Mr. Krkan. You
22 said that as soon as you arrived, this girl, Hajra Hodzic, warned you
23 about his shift. What happened to this girl after that?
24 A. Unfortunately, the girl disappeared and nobody knows to this day,
25 at least I didn't hear anything about her, whether she is still alive and
1 living somewhere. She just disappeared, quite simply.
2 JUDGE RIAD: Was she linked a little bit with the fire which
4 A. I don't know. If some woman was burnt, they might say it was
5 her. Maybe she was one of those victims. I don't know. But while I was
6 in Omarska, she didn't appear anywhere. I didn't see her anywhere.
7 JUDGE RIAD: You seem to indicate that in the fire some people
8 were burnt. Is this only based on the fact of the smell you smelt or the
9 shouts? What were the signs of your statement that people were being
11 A. My feeling is, but I did not see it, and I always say that, that
12 anybody was thrown there, but I did smell the smell of meat or flesh mixed
13 up with the smell of the burning rubber. But who was and whether they
14 were, I didn't see that.
15 JUDGE RIAD: You said that you heard hair-raising screams. Was
16 that during the fire itself or was it during the tortures?
17 A. It was during the fire. From the time dusk fell and long into the
18 night, you could hear cries outside.
19 JUDGE RIAD: Coming from the direction of the fire?
20 A. Yes, from the direction of the fire, or perhaps even from the
21 direction of the first room. I was in the second room and the screams
22 were coming from the direction of the fire.
23 JUDGE RIAD: Did you have a chance afterwards to see if they were
24 cleaning things from the fire, carrying any debris out of the fire?
25 A. No, I didn't see them clearing up anything. But the day I went
1 out for the "white house" to be washed, you could see that the grass had
2 been burnt outside the "white house."
3 JUDGE RIAD: You spoke about Sefik Sivac who was thrown on your
4 legs and died during the night. Do you have more precise information,
5 more information about how he died, what led to his death?
6 A. Well, they beat him outside. We heard the sounds of the blows.
7 We heard them hitting him and swearing, and then they threw him in. I
8 didn't recognise him straight away, but in the morning I recognised him
9 and saw that it was my friend, Sefik Sivac.
10 JUDGE RIAD: Was he taken out also by Krkan?
11 A. Krkan did not take him out. He was not called out from the room.
12 He was somewhere else in another room. He wasn't in that room. After
13 some beating, he was brought into our room and thrown at our feet.
14 JUDGE RIAD: Krkan also broke your ribs, if I understood rightly;
15 that's right? And was beating all your co-travellers.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila.
17 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that we should
18 take a look at the transcript before the question is answered. This was
19 not what the witness said.
20 A. I did not say that he beat him, I said that he called him out.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Judge Riad, would
22 you like to ask the question.
23 JUDGE RIAD: You said that you can recognise the person who broke
24 your ribs and beat all the co-travellers, and then you said that this
25 person was Krkan. Did I understand rightly? Or was this somebody else?
1 A. I don't know what -- I think that there has been a
2 misunderstanding here somewhere. I always said that Krkan called people
3 out, whereas a group of people were waiting over there and they beat
4 them. That was all.
5 JUDGE RIAD: You said you can always recognise the person who
6 broke your ribs; did you say that?
7 A. I said who was responsible for my broken ribs, because I consider
8 him to be responsible.
9 JUDGE RIAD: I see. So he was responsible but did not break your
11 A. I consider that he is responsible, and I will always say that he
12 is responsible because he could have prevented the group of people from
13 killing people in the "white house."
14 JUDGE RIAD: Why do you think he could prevent that?
15 A. Because I think that he was one of the leaders of the shift and he
16 could order them not to do that. He didn't have to make up the list
17 according to which we were beaten. So that is the basis and the
18 foundation from which I always stem.
19 JUDGE RIAD: Did you see him practice this, that he prevented
20 other things from happening?
21 A. I did not see that, no. I did not see that.
22 JUDGE RIAD: You did not see that. What about this policeman
23 Kvocka who stabbed you, if I understood rightly. Did I understand that,
24 that he stabbed you with a knife which came into your belt?
25 A. Yes. Throughout my stay in Omarska, he was there in front of the
1 "white house" standing guard. What then happened to him, I don't know,
2 believe me.
3 JUDGE RIAD: I just wanted to know, was it a common feature that
4 anybody could stab anybody passing, or was this Mr. Kvocka some special
5 person who could do that? Anybody could stab anybody and nobody would
6 stop them?
7 A. I can say that during our detention in Keraterm and Omarska, a
8 Serb, even a civilian, could come, they would allow them to come and take
9 revenge, stab or kill or whatever. Nobody ever tried to stop anyone.
10 JUDGE RIAD: And nobody would order anybody to do something
12 A. I put -- no, I don't think they would order them not to do things,
13 to be quite specific. But, yes, they did order to do something, something
14 bad to us, but did not order them not to do something, not to hurt us.
15 There was only one shift commander in Keraterm, that is what I just
16 stated, and he behaved as a human being should and he tried to prevent
17 them from beating the prisoners.
18 JUDGE RIAD: Who was that?
19 A. I do not know his name. We all called him Kajin. And I think
20 that Mr. Zigic remembers him well.
21 JUDGE RIAD: So who made the lists then? The lists of people who
22 were taken, where did these lists come from?
23 A. Well, say, those lists, there were different kinds of lists. I
24 don't know whether they had agreed on them beforehand and drawn up those
25 lists before, or did they have some orders from some superior authority.
1 But whatever the case, they would always come with some lists and call out
2 names. Or were those their private matter? But at that time, the best
3 thing for any Muslim, Croat, or any other ethnicity was to get away, as
4 far away into some corner, not to show his face, because otherwise perhaps
5 he'd bring you your lunch at noon but then you would be gone by the
7 JUDGE RIAD: Now, when you said he would bring you your lunch, any
8 guard would do that, bring you your lunch, and then come and take you, or
9 it had to be the commander of the shift?
10 A. I don't know. As far as I know, in Omarska --
11 JUDGE RIAD: In your case.
12 A. In my case, nobody ever brought me any lunch.
13 JUDGE RIAD: When you were called, it was in the list?
14 A. It was from the list.
15 JUDGE RIAD: And it was by a guard or by Krkan?
16 A. In Omarska, we had made up that list upon Krkan's orders.
17 JUDGE RIAD: How do you know it's upon his orders?
18 A. Well, he was the one who brought the sheet of paper on which we
19 then wrote down.
20 JUDGE RIAD: I see. Thank you very much.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Judge Riad.
23 Judge Wald, do you have any questions.
24 JUDGE WALD: I have just a few about Krkan's role, to make sure I
25 understand. You did say that Krkan stayed behind when the beatings were
1 conducted but that he came in with the list and went down the list as to
2 the people who would be taken out to be beat by others. In fact,
3 according to the English translation, you said he led the group of
4 torturers. Well, I understand that he didn't -- to your knowledge, he
5 didn't personally beat anybody; is that correct? Krkan did not personally
6 beat anybody; is that correct? To your knowledge. To your knowledge.
7 A. To my knowledge, to my knowledge, I did not see -- I did not see
8 him beat, personally, anyone. What I have been saying all the time is
9 that he would be calling out our names from the list, and he would then be
10 in the passage.
11 JUDGE WALD: I understand that. My next question would then be:
12 You also said that when it came your turn, Krkan actually, I think you
13 used the word, pushed you into the room where the other people began the
14 beatings. My question is: When he pushed you into the room, did the door
15 remain open while you were beaten by these other people, the door to the
16 passageway where, I think you said, he would remain somewhere in that
17 passageway, in that corridor? Was the door closed when these beatings
18 went on; do you remember?
19 A. Do you mean that small room?
20 JUDGE WALD: Yes, the small room where the beatings actually took
22 A. That small room didn't have any door.
23 JUDGE WALD: Okay. That answers my question. The follow-up
24 question is: Do you know where Mr. Krkan would be physically located when
25 people were taken into that room to be beaten? Was it close by? Was it
1 outside with the group of people waiting to be called to be beaten? How
2 nearby to the room where the beatings actually took place would, to your
3 knowledge, Mr. Krkan, or Krkan, be physically present at the time of the
5 A. Physically present. Mr. Krkan was practically right next to us,
6 because the door into another room and the entrance into this room were
7 right next to the other. He would simply lag behind as we entered.
8 JUDGE WALD: And so -- this is my last question. When they were
9 through beating, when the other people were through beating the person, he
10 would be brought back and he would, to your knowledge, have to go by the
11 spot where Mr. Krkan and the rest of the people were, so that you would
12 see the person coming out from having been beaten; is that right?
13 A. Yes, but let's make it clear. Not one person left that room under
14 his own steam. They would be dragged out, carried out.
15 JUDGE WALD: They would have to go by the place where the other
16 people were waiting and Mr. Krkan was standing when they were
17 coming -- when they were carried out; right?
18 A. Right, yes. By Krkan.
19 JUDGE WALD: All right. Thank you very much.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Judge Wald.
21 Witness, I have at least four questions. My first question is:
22 You said that Mr. Zigic came every day. Do you know, how long would he
23 spend in the camp in one day? How long would he stay in there?
24 A. Well, you know, it would depend on when he would come. For a
25 while, as we heard, he was forbidden from entering the camp. But then
1 depending on the shift, he would circle around. We could always see him
2 circle around the guards, chatting with them. So sometimes he would come
3 at noon and then leave and then come back in the evening, perhaps
4 to reconnoitre the situation. But at any rate, I think he spent more time
5 in the camp than anywhere else.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. My second question:
7 You said at some point that Krkan played the chief role on the first day.
8 Do you remember that, that he played one of the crucial roles? What do
9 you mean by that? What does the crucial role, principal role mean to you?
10 A. Well, to me -- that is what I said, "role," because he, to my
11 mind, was a leader of everything that happened that day, because he was
12 the one who called out our names at the time when they were beating us.
13 That is, he played the main role throughout because it all went through
14 his authority.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You also said another thing:
16 Krkan entered the room and put an end to the torture. Do you remember
18 A. No, he did not enter; he just stood in the doorway and stopped it,
19 and then explained that we were to go for interrogation.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But do you remember the words
21 that he used? Do you remember the language? What exactly did he say?
22 Could you try to remember the exact words that he used?
23 A. You know, at that moment, what he -- the exact words he used, I
24 don't know. All I know is that he stopped those guards of his and those
25 men that were there, to interrupt what they were doing. And then he
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the English
14 and French transcripts.
1 explained to us that we were to stand up and would call out the names,
2 that those individuals should go out for interrogation. And then all the
3 ill-treatment and harassment and all the beating stopped.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Was your impression that Krkan
5 was in disagreement, that he did not like what the others were doing?
6 A. My impression was, and judging by his conduct, he was very happy
7 to see it, he enjoyed the whole thing.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And my last question: You
9 mentioned a minor incident when somebody came to draw up a list of what
10 you owned, of your belongings, and said if you had that and turned it
11 over, then you would escape the torture. Do you remember that?
12 A. Yes, I do.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Was he alone then or were there
14 other people with him?
15 A. At that time he had entered the room alone.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And did you have the impression
17 that there were some other people outside who were accompanying him or was
18 he really alone?
19 A. At that time I did not really think about anything else. I was
20 merely listening to what he was saying and we were all watching him,
21 because ...
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. That is it. Well,
23 Mr. Icic, this brings your evidence to a close. Thank you very much. And
24 we are very glad that we can release you for the weekend. Thank you very
25 much for making the effort. Thank you for coming to the Tribunal to give
1 evidence. And we wish you a happy journey back to your place of
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Will the usher please help the
5 witness out.
6 [The witness withdrew]
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. I believe we can
8 call this a day. We shall resume here on Tuesday at 9.30. What is the
9 programme that you have for the next week, Mr. Keegan?
10 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour. We have the witnesses scheduled as
11 announced and the most recent list, however, of course, with the changes
12 as a result of your decision with respect to the revised witness list. So
13 the week will begin with Witnesses J and K, beginning with Witness J on
15 Also, Your Honour, given the discussions about procedures with
16 respect to identifications inside the courtroom, I've spoken with Defence
17 counsel. My proposal is that the Prosecution will draft up a standard
18 procedure to be used, to be followed specifically in every case. We will
19 provide that to the Defence sometime probably on Sunday, put it in their
20 locker so they can review it on Monday so that hopefully on Tuesday
21 morning we can advise the Court of an agreed-upon or at least come close
22 to a resolution on exactly what procedure will be followed by the
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think that it is always a good
25 procedure, especially to notify the Defence counsel what is being
1 suggested, and it is good to discuss it with them in advance rather than
2 come here and spring surprises on everybody, because it always then
3 affects the organisation. And I think that you, Mr. Keegan, you could
4 also benefit from that, because it is a matter of time, naturally. So the
5 better you prepare, the more time you will have. And so I advise you to
6 keep in touch so as to prepare things well for the week to come, not only
7 for the next week, but for the weeks to come.
8 And now we shall adjourn. Have a nice weekend and successful
9 work. Thank you.
10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.24
11 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 5th day of
12 September 2000, at 9.30 a.m.