Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4887

1 Thursday, 7 September 2000

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.

6 Good morning, ladies and gentlemen; good morning to the technical

7 booth and the interpreters; good morning to the legal assistants and

8 registrar, the audience, the Prosecution, the Defence counsel. They're

9 all there. Good morning to the accused.

10 We're going to take up where we left off yesterday and that is the

11 continuation of the cross-examination of Witness J. I'm going to ask the

12 usher to lower the blinds to permit the witness to enter, and we shall

13 begin straight after that.

14 I think that it is Mr. Stojanovic's and Mr. Masic's turn for the

15 cross-examination.

16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Yes.

17 May we take our seats before the witness enters?

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, please do to speed up

19 matters, because we're lagging behind anyway. But it seems to be warmer

20 in the courtroom here today. There were some technical problems, but I

21 think we'll heat up the room with our work. I have already asked the

22 registrar to inquire as to what is going on, otherwise, there will be a

23 sauna in here and that's not why we're here.

24 [The witness entered court]

25 WITNESS: WITNESS J [Resumed]

Page 4888

1 [Witness answered through interpreter]

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness J. Can

3 you hear me? Can you hear me, Witness?

4 THE WITNESS: Yes, I can.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Just to check the technical

6 equipment. We spoke about a sauna a moment ago, but let us add that when

7 you're in a sauna, you have to go out every half hour for a cold shower.

8 But anyway, Witness, I hope that you have had a good rest and that

9 you are fresh and ready to answer the questions put to you by Defence

10 counsel.

11 Mr. Stojanovic, your witness.

12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Cross-examined by Mr. Stojanovic:

14 Q. Good morning, Witness J. I think that you are highly qualified,

15 but I have to address you in that way. My name is Stojanovic. I am a

16 lawyer from Belgrade. And my colleague Simo Tosic make up the Defence

17 counsel of Mr. Zoran Zigic.

18 Yesterday, my learned colleagues Mr. O'Sullivan and Mr. Krstan

19 Simic showed you your witness statements which were given sometime in 1995

20 to the representatives of the Tribunal. Do you remember that taking place

21 yesterday?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. I'm going to read you a portion of the text which refers to Zoran

24 Zigic, one of the accused. It is on page 16 of your statement of the

25 English text and the B/C/S text, both on page 16.

Page 4889

1 "I saw him coming and going from the camp by car. I saw him

2 talking to a guard. (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 Did you state that?

6 A. Yes, I did.

7 Q. Let us now dwell on that statement for a moment. Can you explain

8 to us where Mr. Zigic parked his car on that particular occasion?

9 A. On the pista.

10 Q. You showed us his position yesterday and the position of certain

11 other individuals who were there. Can you tell us whether it was close to

12 the spot which you indicated yesterday?

13 A. He parked his car between the "white house" and the pista, but as

14 far as I remember at this point in time, it was closer to the "white

15 house."

16 Q. Is that still the pista?

17 A. Well, I call that whole space from in front of the restaurant

18 right up to the grassy patch, I refer to that as the pista. That is

19 according to the image that is in my mind at the moment.

20 Q. Does that mean that when getting out of the car, he moved in your

21 direction?

22 A. He -- as I said yesterday, he moved between the pista and the

23 "white house," in that area.

24 Q. I am talking about his movements after he got out of the car.

25 A. Yes, towards the pista.

Page 4890

1 Q. Was he driving the car?

2 A. I really can't say. I don't know. I didn't pay detailed

3 attention to that, nor was I allowed to look. I don't know if he drove

4 the car or not. I really can't say.

5 Q. Were there any other individuals in the car with him?

6 A. I didn't notice any.

7 Q. Can I take that to mean that he was alone in the car?

8 A. I really don't know. I don't know. I can't claim that now,

9 neither could I claim that previously.

10 Q. Could you tell us the make of the car? What type of car was it?

11 A. I assume, although I'm not quite sure, that it was a Mercedes, but

12 I'm not quite sure. I say that once again.

13 Q. But it was a passenger car?

14 A. Oh, yes, definitely.

15 Q. You don't happen to remember the colour?

16 A. I can't say for sure, perhaps it was sort of yellowish.

17 Q. One of your answers yesterday was along these lines. Perhaps

18 I'll -- let me try and formulate that question better.

19 Of the prisoners, was there nobody on the pista at that moment?

20 A. I don't think there was anybody there, no. And I stated that

21 yesterday, I believe.

22 Q. Do you happen to know which guard he talked to, if you remember?

23 You said that he talked to a guard, but do you remember which one?

24 A. No. When I made my statement the first time, I did not identify

25 the guard.

Page 4891

1 Q. Yes, I agree. You said you didn't know, but I have to ask you

2 that question and with a little more detail.

3 Do you not know because you didn't know the guard, or don't you

4 know because you were not able to see the guard properly?

5 A. I don't know. Perhaps I saw him, perhaps not. I couldn't say

6 with any precision.

7 Q. Do you know the guard? Never mind the name, did you know him?

8 A. Well, I probably saw him in the camp. I got to know most of them

9 in the camp during the time that I spent in the camp, but personally, I

10 can't say that I actually knew him. Had I knew him personally, I would

11 probably be able to tell you his identity.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Stojanovic, I think you're

13 going around in circles. Let's move on and ask other questions. You are

14 becoming argumentative with the witness once again.

15 The witness said she saw a guard. Now you're going around in

16 circles and saying, "Does that mean you saw him, you didn't see him?" You

17 see the point I'm trying to make, Mr. Stojanovic. Please move ahead;

18 otherwise, we'll be going round and round in circles.

19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. You said that Mr. Zigic called out certain persons by name. Apart

21 from the people you enumerated, did he ask for other males as well?

22 A. I think he did, yes, and I forgot to state that. I'm not quite

23 sure, but I think it was Emir Beganovic, nicknamed Braco.

24 Q. Did he call out any women?

25 A. I did not hear him do so.

Page 4892

1 Q. You described what he looked like, his uniform and his cap. Did

2 you notice any other -- anything else on him?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Did you happen to notice a bandage of any kind on his body?

5 A. No, I did not, nor could I stare at him for that long.

6 Q. The day before yesterday you said that at the time you asked Adnan

7 Ado who the man was. Why did you ask Mr. Ado that?

8 A. I wanted to check to make sure whether what I thought was correct,

9 and he said, "That's Zigic. I'm sure you know him." And he said -- and I

10 said, "Ah, it can't be him." I said I'm afraid; he does a lot of

11 shouting.

12 Q. Yes, thank you, Witness. That will do. You have given me an

13 answer to my question.

14 We heard yesterday that, after coming back from the lavatory, you

15 saw Zigic standing in front of the "white house." How long did you watch

16 him?

17 A. I really can't say.

18 Q. Was it for a minute, or ten minutes perhaps?

19 A. I can't be specific. I can't tell you how long it lasted.

20 Q. On the occasion, was Zigic standing in front of the "white house"

21 alone?

22 A. I don't remember. I saw him clearly, but as to the rest, I wasn't

23 paying that much attention. There were probably some guards standing

24 around, but I did see him standing there.

25 Q. Thank you. Let us now move on to the events in Trnopolje. When

Page 4893

1 did you arrive in Trnopolje?

2 A. I arrived in Trnopolje, as I already stated, on the 3rd of August,

3 1992.

4 Q. Can you tell us what time of day it was?

5 A. It was before noon when we were -- our names were called out, and

6 it took us perhaps an hour to reach Trnopolje. I'm not quite sure.

7 First of all, the roll call was taken. Then we boarded the bus,

8 and that took some time. We had to go out in front of the administration

9 building to board the bus. Now, how long all that could have lasted, I

10 really don't know. I was so happy to be leaving. I thought I was leaving

11 somewhere where it would be better and that I might survive, so I didn't

12 pay too much attention to the time all this took. But I knew -- I do know

13 that it was all before noon on the 3rd of August.

14 Q. Very well. Can we take it that you arrived there at around noon?

15 A. Well, yes. It could have been in the afternoon as well because

16 the whole procedure of getting out of the restaurant, being called out,

17 being loaded into the bus, the guards assigned to escort us, I really

18 can't say how long all that lasted.

19 Q. When did you leave Trnopolje?

20 A. I left Trnopolje on the 8th of August of that same year.

21 Q. When was that during the day? Can you tell us the time of day

22 that was?

23 A. I can't quite remember.

24 Q. Was it in the morning, in the afternoon?

25 A. Well, it might have been 12.00, after 12.00. But I arrived into

Page 4894

1 the town, the town of Prijedor, sometime in the afternoon.

2 Q. When did you see Zigic in Trnopolje? Can you tell us something

3 more precise, be more specific about that?

4 A. I can't tell you what day it was exactly, but it was -- when I was

5 in Trnopolje, I saw him with my own eyes. I saw Zigic, and that is what I

6 stated. He arrived in Trnopolje, and once again --

7 Q. Thank you very much. You've already described those events. I

8 just have some specific questions to ask you.

9 A. Yes, please go ahead.

10 Q. Do you know what time of day it was?

11 A. Well, it was daytime, daylight.

12 Q. Can you be more specific and tell us whether it was the morning or

13 the afternoon?

14 A. Well, no, I can't. I'm not going to say anything that I'm not

15 absolutely sure about.

16 Q. Yesterday you said that he came by car and that he was looking for

17 a man called Edin Ganic. Do you happen to know which car?

18 A. I think that it was a Golf, metallic colour.

19 Q. Did you see him personally?

20 A. Yes, I did, personally.

21 Q. Could you hear his voice?

22 A. Yes. I saw him and I heard him.

23 Q. Unless I'm wrong, I think you said that you were inside.

24 A. Yes. I was at the entrance of the room, but it was all open.

25 Q. Did you recount that event to the OTP during your interview in

Page 4895

1 1995?

2 A. I really can't remember whether I did or did not. I just can't

3 remember at the moment.

4 Q. Did you tell the Prosecution about Zigic's calling out women and

5 verbally abusing them?

6 A. I don't remember whether I spoke about it, but I remember that

7 incident very well.

8 Q. Did you make a request to leave? I think that the Prosecution

9 supplied a document to that effect in evidence.

10 A. I had to receive that permit to leave; otherwise, I was not able

11 to leave the town and move to free territory.

12 Q. Thank you. Unless I'm wrong, the permit was granted you. You

13 were granted permission and that the permission was signed by a man called

14 Slavko Budimir; is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did you write that request to leave yourself?

17 A. I didn't write anything. I went there with a friend of mine, a

18 girlfriend of mine, a Serb lady, and I asked her to speed matters up, to

19 help me receive the permit. I didn't write anything. I went into an

20 office with her, and I received the permit without any problems.

21 Q. Does that mean you made an oral request?

22 A. Yes. I asked orally, and they said that I had to leave all my

23 property behind and that that was the condition upon which I would receive

24 a permit to leave town. And I said, "That's okay. I'll allow you that,

25 and just give me the paper so I can leave town," because I couldn't have

Page 4896

1 left town without that piece of paper.

2 Q. The facts contained in that permit, are they truthful with respect

3 to your request? I don't mean the motives for your wishing to leave but

4 the process of leaving what was called at the time the Autonomous Region

5 of Krajina?

6 A. Could you make -- what do you mean? I don't quite understand.

7 Q. Well, this is the problem. The Prosecution has already shown this

8 document, and it was Exhibit D3/116A, the Bosnian, Croatian, and Serbian

9 version, and D3/116B in the English language, and it would appear that you

10 tendered this at the 6th of August, which would make it the time you were

11 in Trnopolje. Is that correct?

12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could I ask the usher to show the

13 witness the document again which says that [name redacted] tabled a

14 request to leave the country on the 6th of August, and you say you were in

15 Trnpolje until the 8th of August. Is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. In the explanation given, could you have a look at your name?

18 A. May I just have a moment to take out my glasses, please.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. I think that I have been

20 given indication that Mr. Stojanovic pronounced the name of the witness.

21 So let us take measures to delete the name because, Mr. Stojanovic, this

22 is a protected witness, so we may not say the name out loud.

23 Is that what you were going to say, Mr. Keegan?

24 MR. KEEGAN: That's it, Your Honour, yes.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. Madam Registrar.

Page 4897

1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I really do

2 apologise for that omission.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] As you know, these are

4 situations which are very difficult to put right once they go wrong.

5 We're going to take all the necessary steps, but once it has been said, it

6 has been said. We cannot say to the public in the public gallery, "Forget

7 what you have just heard."

8 Anyway, please continue, Mr. Stojanovic.

9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. Witness J, have you found your way in this document? The

11 explanation part states that the request was tendered on the 6th of

12 August, 1992, asking permission to leave. Can you explain that

13 difference? At that time you said you were in Trnopolje, on the 8th of

14 August?

15 A. Well, I'm seeing this for the first time today. The permit was

16 issued on the 18th of August. I say again --

17 Q. Well, I'm just asking you to explain that to us.

18 A. Let me repeat. I did not make any written request. The day I

19 went to the office, I received this paper.

20 Q. My question did not say that you tabled a written request. I just

21 asked you about the request you made.

22 A. I never tabled a written request.

23 Q. (redacted), can a request be made both orally and in written form?

24 A. Well, I can't make a written request from Trnopolje.

25 Q. Well, that is precisely why I want to hear an explanation from

Page 4898

1 you.

2 A. Well, I don't know why this omission has been made.

3 Q. What is the mistake?

4 A. The permit was issued on the 18th of August.

5 Q. Witness, I did not ask you that. It says here that your

6 request -- very well. You say it was oral -- was made on the 6th of

7 August. That's what it says. And you state that at that time you were in

8 Trnopolje. Now, what is true there? What is the correct version?

9 A. It is true that I was in Trnopolje. That's correct.

10 Q. Thank you. The day before yesterday, you told us that you knew

11 Mr. Miroslav Kvocka well from before. Is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. That same day, you told us that you know Mr. Mladjo Radic very

14 well.

15 A. Well, not as well as Mr. Kvocka. I knew him by sight.

16 Q. But you got to know him much better in the camp, did you not?

17 A. Certainly.

18 Q. Did you also say that you knew Mr. Drago Prcac before the camp?

19 A. Yes, as a worker of the SUP, as a SUP employee.

20 Q. Thank you. Did you also say that you got to know, in the camp,

21 the accused Kos well and that you remember him because of the fringe he

22 wore?

23 A. That's correct, yes.

24 Q. Do you know which of the accused in this courtroom remains? Which

25 is the other person?

Page 4899

1 A. Well, I'd have to get up.

2 Q. No, you don't have to identify anybody. Do you know just which

3 the other accused is in this courtroom?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Who is that?

6 A. It was the commander of the camp.

7 Q. To come to here?

8 A. I don't think I understood your question.

9 Q. No. The other person who is in the courtroom.

10 A. Could you explain that to me in greater detail.

11 Q. Well, we enumerated four individuals whom you know are the accused

12 and whom you know personally. Now, is there another person in this room

13 who stands accused and who is on trial here today or the day before

14 yesterday? When you completed your identification process, in addition to

15 these four individuals whom you stated that you knew --

16 A. Yes, I'm following you. I follow you.

17 Q. -- is there somebody else in this courtroom who is one of the

18 accused?

19 A. Of course there is. Zoran Zigic.

20 Q. Thank you very much.

21 A. I'm afraid you got me muddled.

22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have no further

23 questions.

24 Q. Thank you, Witness J.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

Page 4900

1 Mr. Stojanovic.

2 Mr. Masic and Mr. Jovan Simic.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, you may proceed,

4 Mr. Masic.

5 Cross-examined by Mr. Masic:

6 Q. Good morning, Witness J. My name is Dusan Masic. I'm a lawyer

7 from Belgrade, and together with my colleague Mr. Jovan Simic, I'm

8 representing the accused Drago Prcac in this case.

9 To begin with, I should like to ask you whether you knew Drago

10 before you arrived in the camp.

11 A. Yes, I did.

12 Q. For how long did you know him?

13 A. I knew him since late 1970s. Approximately since 1978, more or

14 less.

15 Q. During your examination-in-chief, (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Do you know what Drago did before the Omarska camp was set up?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Could you tell us?

22 A. He was a crime technician. He was an employee of the former SUP.

23 Q. Was he working until the camp was set up?

24 A. I really don't know what he was at that time, whether he had

25 already retired or whether he was still an employee there.

Page 4901

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Page 4902

1 Q. (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 A. I couldn't tell you how many times I would see him, but I saw him

4 often.

5 Q. So one could say that you knew Drago Prcac very well, that you

6 knew how he looked?

7 A. Yes, we were on very friendly terms.

8 Q. As regards your examination-in-chief, could you tell us whether

9 you told us only about things that you yourself saw, or did you also

10 recount things that you heard from other detainees?

11 A. I only told you about the things that I experienced.

12 Q. I'm actually interested in the things you saw, that you saw

13 directly, that you could observe yourself.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Can we agree that, according to your testimony, Mr. Prcac arrived

16 in the Omarska camp in mid-July? That is what you said.

17 A. Yes, we can agree on that.

18 Q. So he was there since mid-July until the 3rd of August. That is

19 when you left the camp.

20 A. Yes, it was sometime in mid-July. I cannot tell you the exact

21 date.

22 Q. So that would amount to a period of about 20 days during your stay

23 in the camp?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You testified in chief that you had seen Drago Prcac giving

Page 4903

1 assignments to the guards. When, where, and to which guards?

2 A. I cannot tell you which guards he gave assignments to.

3 Q. Can you tell us about the time when he would do that?

4 A. I would see him in the morning, at other times of the day as well.

5 Q. Did he issue orders to the guards?

6 A. He would give them assignments, indicate them what to do. He

7 would motion to them where they were supposed to go in the camp. He would

8 carry some kind of lists.

9 Q. So from 7 or 8.00 in the morning until 7 or 8.00 in the evening,

10 you were in the restaurant, and during that time you could observe things

11 freely; otherwise, you were locked up, and you could only go to the

12 toilet. Does that mean you would see Drago only during the day?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You told us you had seen him giving assignments to the guards.

15 Could you describe to us the locations where he would assign the guards?

16 A. He would assign them to stand around the restaurant, in the

17 direction of the "white house," the garage, other buildings where

18 detainees were put.

19 Q. Does that mean that he was only giving assignments to individual

20 guards and not to the complete shifts?

21 A. I really don't know about that.

22 Q. Yesterday in response to a question put to you by one of my

23 learned colleagues that the shifts would be relieved inside the

24 administration building, that is, in the office?

25 A. Sometimes that would take place in the office and sometimes

Page 4904

1 outside the entrance. Near the pista.

2 Q. Does that mean that there was not a strict procedure as regards

3 the changeover the guards? Sometimes it would take place inside,

4 sometimes outside; sometimes Meakic would be in charge, sometimes Prcac?

5 A. Yes. According to what I could observe, that was the case.

6 Q. We can therefore conclude that it was a chaotical procedure.

7 A. That's what you're saying.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Keegan. I know what

9 you're going to say, but please, do say so.

10 Mr. Masic, you cannot draw such conclusions. You should confine

11 yourselves to questions and not draw any conclusions.

12 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours. I'm going

13 to reformulate my question.

14 Q. Was the changeover of guards carried in anarchical manner?

15 A. I don't know what you mean by "anarchy."

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Masic, if you're going

17 to use such an adjective, it means that you are drawing conclusions. If

18 you're going to ask such a question, it means you are already making

19 judgements.

20 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. I thought it was a proper

21 question, but I'm going to withdraw it anyway.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Masic, you can ask the

23 witness what was the procedure of the changeover, but you cannot ask the

24 witness if the changeover was carried out in an anarchical manner. You

25 can ask her about the procedure itself and what it looked like.

Page 4905

1 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you for your assistance, Your

2 Honours. I hope that the witness has heard your question as well.

3 Q. So could you please describe to us the changeover of guards.

4 A. I have already spoken about that. New guards would arrive in a

5 group, the old ones would leave, and as I have already said, it took place

6 in front of the entrance to the administration building. Sometimes it

7 would take place on the pista or in the reception office or the

8 administration office.

9 Q. You told us a while ago that sometimes Meakic and Prcac would give

10 assignments to the guards together; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You testified that Drago Prcac would very often call out

13 detainees. Where would he do that?

14 A. I saw him around the restaurant, but he was walking around the

15 camp, and he was probably visiting locations where the detainees were.

16 Q. I'm sorry, Witness J, but I want to know where you saw him.

17 A. I was clear enough, I believe. I saw him in front of the

18 restaurant.

19 Q. Could you be more specific as to the time and to the individuals

20 he would call out and how often that would take place?

21 A. No, I cannot tell you that. I don't know about the time, when it

22 took place, and I don't know the names and surnames of people who he

23 called out.

24 Q. How can you therefore claim that you would no longer see the

25 individuals in question in the restaurant? How can you say that if you do

Page 4906

1 not know those people?

2 A. I didn't see some of them.

3 Q. Which ones?

4 A. I can give you an endless list of people.

5 Q. No, don't do that. Just give me the names of the people that were

6 called out by Drago Prcac and who were no longer to be seen in the

7 restaurant.

8 A. I'm sorry, I cannot tell you that at the moment. You want me to

9 be --

10 Q. No, let me ask you one further question. You left for Trnopolje

11 on the 3rd of August?

12 A. Yes, that is correct.

13 Q. Was it Drago Prcac who called you out on that occasion?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Does that mean that Drago Prcac called out the names of the people

16 who were supposed to go to Trnopolje?

17 A. No, it does not.

18 Q. How come, since he called out your name?

19 A. He didn't call out several of the women detainees, and they never

20 left the camp. They were not on the list that he was using.

21 Q. That's exactly what I'm asking. Was he calling out the names of

22 the people who were leaving?

23 A. He called us women in the presence of Zeljko Meakic in the

24 restaurant.

25 Q. So he read out the names from the list in the presence of Zeljko

Page 4907

1 Meakic?

2 A. Yes, he did.

3 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. No further

4 questions. I apologise Your Honour, let me ask one more question.

5 Q. One last question, Witness J, I apologise. I forgot to ask you

6 one particular thing.

7 Yesterday you told my colleague, Mr. Krstan Simic, (redacted)

8 (redacted).

9 Did you read that article?

10 A. No. I saw him [sic] yesterday for the first time.

11 Q. At that time, did you tell the truth to the journalists?

12 A. I always tell the truth, and that is what I told you yesterday.

13 Q. Were there any children in the Omarska camp?

14 A. There were young people who were underage at the time.

15 Q. You know exactly what I mean by children. I'm asking you about

16 children.

17 A. I say that there were some people there who were minors. I can

18 give you names of two of them. I can identify two such individuals.

19 There were two underage persons whom I knew personally and whose parents I

20 knew.

21 Q. In the article that I mentioned, you state there were many

22 children in the camp. Is that correct?

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, Mr. Masic. The

24 witness has already said that she is not aware of the contents of the

25 document. You have to bear in mind that there is a journalist between the

Page 4908

1 witness and the public. She has already said that she cannot confirm the

2 words as they were conveyed in the article.

3 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. That was the reason

4 of my question regarding the contents of the article.

5 Thank you very much. I have no further questions.

6 A. There was an interpreter present during the interview as well.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Masic.

8 Mr. Keegan, do you have any additional questions for the witness?

9 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

10 Re-examined by Mr. Keegan:

11 Q. Witness J, I'd like to ask you a few questions about some of the

12 areas that have been covered in cross-examination. Let's first start with

13 some general background about the witness statement which you gave to the

14 ICTY in February of 1995.

15 MR. KEEGAN: Could I have the usher hand a copy of the statement

16 to the witness, please.

17 Q. Now, it indicates this statement was given over a period of two

18 days; is that correct? The 11th and 14th of February, I believe.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Was this interview conducted in a question and answer format? In

21 other words, the investigators asked questions and you provided answers?

22 A. Yes.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila, do you have an

24 objection to raise?

25 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the question should be

Page 4909

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Page 4910

1 asked, "How was the interview conducted?" as you yourself indicated to

2 us. My objection is the same as the one raised in respect of the

3 anarchical manner in which the changeover was carried out, and I should

4 also like to restrict my -- my learned colleague restrict himself to the

5 areas that were covered in the cross-examination and not lead any new

6 evidence.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Keegan.

8 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour. I believe it's generally accepted

9 that, with respect to foundational questions, it's a little bit of leeway

10 with respect to the form of the question, whether it's considered a

11 leading or direct question. Therefore, I'm simply trying to get to the

12 foundation of the statement and then there will be particular questions.

13 Since the statement was utilised by every counsel, I'm simply trying to

14 clear up some matters with respect to that.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. I think that we agreed

16 that, as regards general questions, they can be formulated in a different

17 manner. However, since this is a very sensitive issue for the Defence,

18 let us make an exception to the rule. Could you please rephrase your

19 question, Mr. Keegan, so that you avoid any inferences, any conclusions,

20 just because this is a very sensitive issue for the Defence. If you could

21 please do that.

22 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour. For the record then, I'll rephrase

23 the question.

24 Q. Witness J, how was the interview conducted?

25 A. I was answering questions that were put to me by the investigators

Page 4911

1 who were conducting the interview, and it was a normal conversation.

2 Q. And during this time in February of 1995, did you find it -- well,

3 what was your state of mind with respect to sitting through a long

4 interview with regards to all of the events which happened to you in

5 1992? Was it easy, was it difficult?

6 A. It is always difficult for me to talk about that. It's perfectly

7 normal, I think. I have certain emotions about that, and it's a perfectly

8 normal reaction. But the people who talked to me were very relaxed, calm,

9 normal. Nobody insisted on my talking about the things I didn't wish to

10 talk about, and never at any point in time did I feel under any pressure.

11 People listened to what I was telling them and only to that.

12 Q. Investigators did not press you on answers that you gave?

13 A. No, in any way.

14 Q. They were typing the answers as you gave them?

15 A. Yes, right away. I was able to control what was being recorded.

16 Q. Was this interview process a difficult or tiring experience or did

17 you find it easy to deal with?

18 A. As I have already told you, one always has certain emotional

19 reactions in such situations.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Nikolic.

21 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Objection to the question put by

22 Mr. Keegan. The witness has already told us that the conversation was a

23 relaxed one. So I think that this question now points to something else.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Keegan.

25 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, I'm happy to leave it to the record and

Page 4912

1 for conclusions to the Court, but I believe she said that she found it

2 extremely difficult but that the investigators were relaxed. I'm happy to

3 leave the record as it stands.

4 A. "Normal." I said "normal," as far as I can follow the

5 discussion.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] This is good. I think this is

7 the good conclusion; that is to say, you should leave the conclusions to

8 the Chamber. If the witness has said that it had been a difficult

9 experience for her, the Chamber is going to read the transcript. It is

10 not necessary to repeat.

11 So it is similar to the question that we already had if the

12 changeover of the guards was carried out in an anarchical manner or not.

13 You make allegations and we will make conclusions, but please, it is not

14 upon the parties to draw conclusions. Please restrict yourselves to

15 questions, and please formulate your questions in a clear, specific, and

16 concise manner. Clear, specific, and concise.

17 This is a very sensitive issue again, Mr. Keegan, and we have to

18 be very careful. We should not be drawing conclusions, and one should not

19 leave the witness to draw conclusions but let the witness speak in a

20 spontaneous manner.

21 MR. KEEGAN: Thank you, Your Honour. If I could have the

22 assistance of the usher again, please.

23 Q. Witness J, yesterday Mr. Simic read selected sentences or passages

24 from the statement. I would now like to ask you some follow-up

25 questions.

Page 4913

1 MR. KEEGAN: If we could put the English version on the ELMO,

2 please, so that the Court can see the full paragraph.

3 Q. Yesterday -- and we're talking now on page 5 of your statement.

4 Yesterday, Mr. Simic asked you some questions about Mr. Meakic and

5 specifically referred to one paragraph on page 5 and referred to one

6 sentence where he indicated that you had said Mr. Meakic told a guard that

7 he could not drink. Do you recall that?

8 A. Yes.

9 MR. KEEGAN: Go down, please. Or move the sheet up. Move it up.

10 Move it up. There.

11 Q. Now, the guard -- this is on page 4 in the Bosnian.

12 The guard in question, the one who bothered Namka, do you remember

13 that?

14 A. Yes, Namka Alisic. I remember that.

15 Q. That guard who was on duty upstairs in the hallway, the guard that

16 you referred to, who would be on duty upstairs?

17 A. He would come from time to time, but it was not his regular duty.

18 Q. Did you have occasion to see guards drinking in the camp?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And how often did that occur?

21 A. Very often.

22 MR. KEEGAN: Now if we could go to page 5, please.

23 Q. Did you --

24 MR. KEEGAN: Page 5. Thank you. Yes.

25 Q. Did you also state in that statement that while you did not see

Page 4914

1 Zeljko Meakic himself commit crimes, you did see him present when crimes

2 were being committed against prisoners, and you saw him walk past dead

3 bodies. Do you remember that?

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic?

5 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yesterday, we dwelled

6 on these issues with the witness for some time concerning Mr. Kvocka,

7 Mr. Prcac, and Mr. Krkan, and the witness was clear enough. Mr. Meakic

8 was not mentioned at all in the cross-examination, and the topic is being

9 widened here, and if I may say so, it is not relevant to the case because

10 Mr. Meakic is not here.

11 This portion of the statement was not used at all, the portion of

12 the statement that Mr. Keegan is now referring to.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Keegan.

14 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour. I'm happy to pull the transcript

15 right now and settle this. I know the Court is reluctant to refer back to

16 the transcript, which is why I responded to Mr. Nikolic's objection the

17 way I did, but the question was specifically asked yesterday about

18 Mr. Meakic and about whether he issued orders to tell the guard he could

19 not drink on duty, the inference being, of course, that her testimony with

20 respect to that Meakic was present when crimes were being committed was

21 inconsistent with her prior statement, and I'm simply attempting to show

22 that, in fact, she was consistent in her statement with her testimony, and

23 there are further passages that I'm going to get to with respect to

24 Mr. Kvocka and others.

25 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] May I reply, Your Honour?

Page 4915

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Page 4916

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Objection is rejected.

2 Mr. Keegan, please proceed with your question.

3 MR. KEEGAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Now, if the usher could move it down just slightly so the

5 paragraph which you can just see on the ELMO, you can see the full

6 paragraph, please. Right there. That's fine.

7 Q. Witness J, yesterday Mr. Simic read just a selected portion on

8 page 5, and he asked you about the question about whether you had said in

9 your statement that Mr. Meakic was always present in the camp. Do you

10 recall that?

11 A. More or less, yes.

12 Q. But did you also say in your statement, some three paragraphs

13 later, speaking about Mr. Kvocka, the accused, that when Zeljko was not in

14 the camp, those who needed to go see the commander went to Miroslav?

15 A. Yes, that's what I said.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 MR. KEEGAN: If we could go to page 9, please. Page 9. Right

18 there. That's good, thank you.

19 Q. Again, referring to Mr. Simic's questions, yesterday he asked you

20 about a man named Mirko Babic. Do you recall that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And he asked you questions about whether Mirko Babic had told you

23 that he was an engineer. Do you recall that?

24 A. Yes, I do.

25 Q. And he asked you questions regarding Mirko Babic's position before

Page 4917

1 the war as a member of the staff at the Omarska mining complex. Do you

2 recall that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. He also asked you if Mr. Babic wore civilian clothes. Do you

5 recall that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. But did you also say in your statement, which was not read to you,

8 that Mr. Babic sometimes wore a police uniform; he sometimes wore civilian

9 clothes?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. That he would come to your sleeping room in the evening and tell

12 you that someone had to go to Separacija the next day and clean there?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And with respect to his work obligation, which was also a question

15 raised, you were asked if Mr. Babic told you that his obligation was to

16 ensure the mine continued as normal. Do you recall that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And did you not also say in your statement in 1995 that, in

19 response to that, you thought that was odd since the mine was now a camp?

20 A. Yes. There was no logic in it, for it to start working, because

21 all the premises and the whole space was full of prisoners, so that was

22 rather funny.

23 Q. Witness J, did Mirko Babic call women out of the rooms at night?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did any of those women ever tell you what happened when Mirko

Page 4918

1 Babic called them out of the room?

2 A. No.

3 Q. I'd like to move on now.

4 MR. KEEGAN: You can take the statement, thank you.

5 I'd like to move on now to this issue of the newspaper article

6 referred to, the article by the French press agency. Could I ask the

7 witness to be provided the copy of the newspaper article, please. I'm

8 referring to the Defence exhibit. Not that one, the Defence exhibit. The

9 D31/1.

10 Q. You have a version there in your own language?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. I just want to ask you a few questions about this article.

13 Witness J, were you shown the contents of this article by the reporter

14 prior to its publication?

15 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, objection.

16 A. I saw this for the first time yesterday.

17 MR. RODRIGUES: Objection overruled. I think we ought to hear the

18 answer to the question. What is your objection, Mr. Krstan Simic? No,

19 now I want to know.

20 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I wanted to object

21 before the answer to the question was given because quite obviously the

22 Prosecution is leading -- or misleading the witness, and we said a moment

23 ago that this was an interview. We got the document from the Prosecution,

24 and we are surprised to see that they did not analyse it. This is a

25 statement from what Witness J said at a press conference.

Page 4919

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, this was the object

2 of several questions in the cross-examination. Even if it was a document

3 furnished by the Prosecution, the Prosecution can conduct all kinds of

4 analyses; but here in the courtroom, as the Defence always defended the

5 question and we always discussed all preliminary declarations, the defence

6 took the stand that what we -- what counted was what is said orally in the

7 courtroom. So what counts is what's stated orally in the courtroom.

8 So independent of all the analyses the Prosecution did before, he

9 is asking it for the first time here in the courtroom, so I overrule the

10 objection, and I ask Mr. Keegan to continue.

11 And please bear in mind one thing: Do not lead the witness into

12 giving an answer.

13 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you. I just want to

14 clarify. I believe we did get the answer to the question on the record.

15 I won't repeat it if we did.

16 Q. Witness J, were you shown the contents of this article by the

17 reporter prior to its publication?

18 A. I said, and I repeat, I saw this article for the first time

19 yesterday when it was shown to me by the Defence counsel.

20 Q. Witness J, were you at any time asked to confirm the details or

21 the facts contained -- the alleged facts which are contained in that

22 article, either by the reporter or by the press agency?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Were you asked at any time to confirm whether you had, in fact,

25 made the statements that are attributed to you in that article by the

Page 4920

1 reporter or by the press agency?

2 A. No.

3 Q. The conference which you were attending at the time, how was it

4 that you came to be at that conference? Why were you there?

5 A. I answered a question put to me by the Defence counsel yesterday.

6 He mentioned some committee of survivors, or whatever it was called, that

7 I attended the conference as part of a delegation of the women of

8 Bosnia-Herzegovina. That is a non-governmental organisation, a women's

9 organisation.

10 Q. And was that non-governmental organisation, that NGO, invited to

11 send a delegation to that conference?

12 A. Yes. And several of us went, not only myself.

13 Q. Were members of that delegation asked to give press conferences?

14 A. Yes, they were. Not only by that organisation, but several

15 organisations held press conferences on that particular day, the ones that

16 were present at the conference. So it was not only me that talked about

17 this, but other former prisoners as well, female ones.

18 Q. Now, with respect to this issue about the changing of the shifts

19 and the assignment of guards, how is it that you are aware that

20 assignments were on occasion given to guards inside the building, that is,

21 up in the office which you referred to? How do you know that?

22 A. They went upstairs and would come back, and they talked about it,

23 who they had to report to, the commander, the deputy, prior to a shift.

24 This wasn't something that was kept secret. They talked about it openly

25 in front of us.

Page 4921

1 Q. Who is "they" that you refer to?

2 A. The guards, the guards.

3 Q. Were you able to see or to observe how the guards -- how different

4 guards arrived at the camp?

5 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, I object to this line of

6 questioning.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. O'Sullivan.

8 MR. O'SULLIVAN: This was fully canvassed on direct examination,

9 and counsel had the opportunity to put these questions at that time to his

10 witness. My submission is he's attempting to reopen direct examination.

11 And when he had the opportunity to do so on direct, he --

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. O'Sullivan, let's hear the

13 question. I don't know whether you know, and I don't know if Mr. Keegan

14 is going to set the frameworks for a question or not, or what he's going

15 to do. So shall we wait and see what he's actually going to do?

16 We have understood the gist of your objection, but I'm going to

17 ask Mr. Keegan to continue with his questioning to see whether it is an

18 isolated question or laying the foundations for something.

19 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour. Without going into the specifics,

20 the point of this is the Defence asked a number of questions on this. We

21 think that there is a particular reason why they were focussed in that

22 direction, to try and perhaps show consistencies either with this witness

23 or others.

24 Of course, we all come from different jurisdictions here.

25 Mr. O'Sullivan comes from one where redirect is extremely limited;

Page 4922

1 however, we don't believe that the practice before this Tribunal, the

2 jurisprudence before this Tribunal, indicates --

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Keegan, I apologise for

4 interrupting you. The Chamber understands. Go ahead with your question,

5 please.

6 MR. KEEGAN: Thank you.

7 Q. Witness J, I'll repeat the question. Were you able to see or to

8 observe how different guards arrived at the camp for their shifts?

9 A. How do you mean, how they arrived at the camp? Could you clarify

10 that, please? You mean what brought them?

11 Q. Yes, exactly.

12 A. The mode they came there?

13 Q. How they arrived at the camp.

14 A. They came by bus usually.

15 Q. And after the bus arrived, would the shift that was leaving leave

16 on that bus?

17 A. Most times, yes.

18 Q. To your knowledge -- let me ask it this way.

19 You've talked about the guards going upstairs to get assignments

20 and then talking about it. Did that always occur at the same time of day,

21 or would it occur throughout the day?

22 A. Usually in the morning when they came to work, usually.

23 Q. Now with respect to the questions asked by Mr. Masic, you referred

24 to the list when you were called out by Mr. Prcac, when you were being

25 transferred to the Trnopolje camp. Did you have an opportunity to see

Page 4923

1 that list?

2 A. Yes. We were standing in a semicircle. Prcac was holding the

3 list. (redacted), she was sitting down like

4 this with her head on her hands, and I said, "Why don't you get up? We're

5 going." And she said, "There's a minus sign next to my name. I'll never

6 leave this place." And that was Velida Mahmuljin.

7 Q. Did Velida Mahmuljin leave the camp with you that day?

8 A. Never. Nothing has been heard of her up until the present day.

9 Q. To your knowledge, were there any other names --

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Mr. Keegan. A

11 question was asked: "Velida Mahmuljin, did she leave the place with you

12 or not?" I'd like to have the witness's answer. Could you repeat that

13 question?

14 MR. KEEGAN: Certainly, Your Honour.

15 Q. Witness J, did Velida Mahmuljin leave the camp with you on that

16 day?

17 A. She did not.

18 Q. And to your knowledge, has she ever been seen again since that

19 day?

20 A. Never up until the present day. Nothing is known about Velida.

21 Q. Were there other women in your group that day --

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. -- who also did not leave the camp with you?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Who were they?

Page 4924

1 A. Mugbila Besirevic.

2 Q. And to your knowledge, has anything been heard or has she ever

3 been seen since that day?

4 A. To the present day, nothing has ever been heard of her, about

5 her.

6 MR. KEEGAN: I have nothing further, Your Honour. Thank you.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Keegan.

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila.

10 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have no questions.

11 That's not what I wanted to take the floor about.

12 You told us that these are witnesses of the Court and that it is

13 our job here to ascertain the truth. Did we hear here -- and when the

14 Defence showed the interview by Agence France Presse, and when the

15 Prosecutor at the end showed that article to the witness, did -- we'd like

16 to have an answer. Did the witness say what it said in the France Presse

17 article or not? Does it say something that the witness did not state or

18 does it not? That is the crux of the question.

19 I apologise for raising it again, but I really do think the answer

20 is crucial. Thank you.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No, Mr. Fila. We're not going

22 to open up a discussion on that. It is true that the witness said that

23 she saw the document for the first time yesterday when it was shown to her

24 by the Defence counsel, and we can't oblige the witness to say anything

25 else. That is what the witness said, and that's what we have to accept.

Page 4925

1 We have to accept what we hear.

2 I am very sorry, Mr. Fila, but we can't open up that discussion

3 again. You can take the point up in your defence, in your final

4 statements and so on, but not have it argumented here.

5 Now we come to the Judges' question. We might go beyond our time

6 limit before the break, we might go beyond 11.00, so perhaps it would be

7 better to take a break now before the Judges ask their questions. We said

8 beforehand that the room is very hot and that it's almost becoming a

9 sauna. We might need a cold shower and give the witness a chance to have

10 a rest.

11 So we're going to have a half-hour break. Would the usher please

12 lower the blinds to allow the witness to leave the courtroom escorted.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We reconvene round about 11.25.

14 --- Recess taken at 10.55 a.m.

15 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated.

17 Let us resume with the questions of the Chamber. Judge Riad has

18 the floor.

19 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. President.

20 Questioned by the Court:

21 JUDGE RIAD: Witness J, I can't call you by your name, so good

22 morning. I would appreciate your shedding some more light on a few points

23 if you are in a position to do so and even if you have referred to some of

24 them before in passing.

25 I have at least one or two global questions, one concerning the

Page 4926

1 command of the camp. There was the official command, there was the camp

2 commanders, yes, it was Kvocka and -- then Meakic, then Kvocka, then

3 Prcac, and there were the shift commanders, Krkan, Ckalja, and Krle.

4 Was there some kind of conflict between these commanders or was

5 this command coinciding with one another? Was it the same policy and

6 completed one another? Who was in full control, the camp commanders or

7 the shift commanders, in your opinion or your assessment?

8 A. Let me first answer the first part of your question. I didn't see

9 any conflict break out between them at any point in time. They were

10 cooperating all the time. They were doing the work together, completing

11 one another, as far as I could observe, and on the basis of that, I can

12 reach this conclusion. That is because I saw that during my stay in the

13 camp.

14 JUDGE RIAD: You said cooperation. Was there a certain hierarchy,

15 or were they on equal footing in practice?

16 A. What I noticed was cooperation, a complete cooperation.

17 JUDGE RIAD: Now, when there was a commander like Kvocka and then

18 a commander like Prcac, was there a difference in the camp atmosphere, in

19 the treatment of the detainees, or was the difference according to the

20 shift commanders?

21 A. The atmosphere was more or less the same. It was quite similar.

22 JUDGE RIAD: And according to the shift, to the shifts, was the

23 atmosphere the same in all shifts?

24 A. Well, according to what I saw, it seems to me that the worst

25 atmosphere was the one led by Mladjo Radic, called Krkan.

Page 4927

1 JUDGE RIAD: When you say worst, was it that nobody would stop,

2 nobody would stop the guards from doing anything, and on other shifts they

3 would be stopped?

4 A. No, that doesn't mean that. I personally remember the guards from

5 Krkan's shift, from the restaurant.

6 JUDGE RIAD: And why do you remember them in particular?

7 A. Because they beat the detainees who came there to get their meal,

8 because they would shout at them, and because of the one who used to abuse

9 us women, verbally in particular.

10 JUDGE RIAD: And was Krkan around with them?

11 A. He would come to the restaurant very often.

12 JUDGE RIAD: And he would not stop anybody?

13 A. I never saw that.

14 JUDGE RIAD: Did any of the commanders, shift commanders or camp

15 commanders, give, to your knowledge, orders to beat or to mistreat?

16 A. I didn't hear or see him do that in my presence, orders to beat

17 people.

18 JUDGE RIAD: Did any of the commanders you have seen during the

19 period give orders not to beat or prevent it? You gave only one example

20 of Meakic who asked the guard to report to him because he was drunk and

21 bothered, bothered Namka. Was that the only instance you saw of a

22 commander interfering?

23 A. I never saw anyone prevent any incident.

24 JUDGE RIAD: With this incident of Meakic, what was the reaction

25 of the guard when Meakic called him to order? Did he obey? Did you

Page 4928

1 notice that there was a real discipline when somebody -- when a commander

2 interfered?

3 A. No, he continued coming to our room.

4 JUDGE RIAD: So he continued, but the order was obeyed? Any order

5 would be obeyed when you were watching?

6 A. I didn't notice that.

7 JUDGE RIAD: But the camp was functioning with regularity and

8 discipline?

9 A. The camp was functioning, yes.

10 JUDGE RIAD: So there was discipline?

11 A. I wouldn't say that there was discipline because tortures were an

12 everyday occurrence, and nobody prevented anyone from doing that.

13 JUDGE RIAD: Torture could be part of the discipline and could be

14 the result of guards doing anything they wanted?

15 A. That was my impression.

16 JUDGE RIAD: Which one?

17 A. That the tortures went on, that they could do as they pleased.

18 JUDGE RIAD: The guards were free to do as they pleased?

19 A. That is my conclusion, yes.

20 JUDGE RIAD: Now, if you look at the lists, when somebody came and

21 read the lists, there was always a list according to which detainees were

22 called, or could the guards call anyone they wanted?

23 A. They could call out anyone they wanted, any of the detainees, even

24 without the list.

25 JUDGE RIAD: Those who never came back, were they usually on the

Page 4929

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Page 4930

1 lists, or called by any guard?

2 A. They could be on the list, but they could also be called out

3 without the list.

4 JUDGE RIAD: You had an opportunity to see a list. When you went

5 in the room, you had a glance. What is your memory of it? Was it some

6 kind of official list coming from an official place, or handwritten?

7 A. I don't know exactly how it was, but I could clearly see the name

8 that I mentioned at the beginning of my testimony. The names of detainees

9 were on the list.

10 JUDGE RIAD: Yes.

11 A. But I was afraid. The list scared me, actually, and I wanted to

12 get rid of it as soon as possible. I wanted to hand it over. And I saw a

13 name. It was the name of the former mayor of the Prijedor municipality,

14 Mr. Muhamed Cehajic. The name was underlined in red pencil, and next to

15 his name...

16 JUDGE RIAD: Are you finished?

17 A. Yes.

18 JUDGE RIAD: You said, "And next to his name," and you stopped.

19 A. The word "again," the word "again," "ponovo," was standing next to

20 it, and I could conclude from that that he was to be interrogated again.

21 I don't know whether my conclusion was right or not.

22 JUDGE RIAD: Was this just handwritten or lists -- official lists

23 coming?

24 A. Handwritten next to the name in red pencil.

25 JUDGE RIAD: But the lists themselves, could you --

Page 4931

1 A. Well, that I don't remember, but I think, I think that it was

2 typed out, the list itself.

3 JUDGE RIAD: Was there a typewriter in the office?

4 A. Which office do you have in mind?

5 JUDGE RIAD: The one where you saw, the one where you saw the

6 list.

7 A. The list was found in the room where we would spend the night

8 after we had completed our work in the restaurant, and that is where the

9 investigators carried out the interrogations of the detainees, and my

10 assumption is that they had left the list in the room, that they didn't

11 put it away after they had finished their work.

12 JUDGE RIAD: Did you see, since you have been cleaning sometimes,

13 did you see any of the commanders typing?

14 A. No.

15 JUDGE RIAD: And this list, you mentioned the mayor of Prijedor.

16 Who were the people usually called on these lists? What category of

17 people?

18 A. Those were members of political parties, including the Party of

19 Democratic Action and the Croatian Democratic Union, individuals who held

20 very high positions, used to work as highly-ranking public servants,

21 people who were well off, respected members of the community.

22 JUDGE RIAD: You mentioned two ladies, Velida and Mugbila, who

23 were the ones on the list with the mark. She told you that her name had a

24 minor mark. Was she part of any big political gathering?

25 A. Velida Mahmuljin, as far as I know, was a member of the Party of

Page 4932

1 Democratic Action, and she used to live in Kozarac.

2 JUDGE RIAD: Did they openly accuse her of anything?

3 A. She said that they had.

4 JUDGE RIAD: What? Do you know?

5 A. Because of her membership in that political party.

6 JUDGE RIAD: Now, I just want to ask you about Mr. Krkan's

7 attitude with you. You said -- I won't repeat it, when he molested you,

8 but offered to come to you at night for eventual intercourse, with a

9 mattress, and offered you, apparently, to put you in a better category.

10 Was this accompanied by any threat if you didn't, or he just spoke of the

11 reward?

12 A. He spoke about the reward.

13 JUDGE RIAD: So he was, in your opinion, in a position to save

14 you, to save anyone?

15 A. Yes. Yes.

16 JUDGE RIAD: Did you notice this done with other people?

17 A. Yes.

18 JUDGE RIAD: Could you just tell me "yes" means that they saved

19 them? What happened exactly? Could these commanders change the fate of

20 anybody?

21 A. I believe that they could change the fate of people to a great

22 extent.

23 JUDGE RIAD: And stop the guards from doing anything?

24 A. Yes.

25 JUDGE RIAD: Just a last question. Just I want to visualise this

Page 4933

1 hosing down the detainees, this bath they gave them, because was this the

2 daily bath for the detainees or was it some kind of entertainment? What

3 was it exactly?

4 A. I don't know what it was.

5 JUDGE RIAD: The way it was undertaken, how was it done?

6 A. To me, it looked like they were having fun with it, but actually,

7 it was a very painful sight.

8 JUDGE RIAD: Could you just tell me how painful?

9 A. It was difficult for me to watch them as to how those who were

10 being hosed down were feeling. I can only imagine. People stumbled down

11 because of the heavy jet of water. They were falling down to the ground.

12 They were completely naked. Amongst the men there was a woman, Hajra

13 Hadzic, as I said at the beginning of my testimony. That woman was in the

14 "white house" all the time, and she never left the camp.

15 JUDGE RIAD: And were women mistreated the same way as men

16 exactly?

17 A. They didn't bathe us with that hose.

18 JUDGE RIAD: But apart from that, as far as beating is concerned

19 and going to the restaurant and that sort of thing.

20 A. Not in front of me. I never saw a woman being beaten up, with my

21 own eyes.

22 JUDGE RIAD: What about the two minors? You said there were two

23 minors. How old were they and how were they treated?

24 A. The same as all other male detainees.

25 JUDGE RIAD: How old were they?

Page 4934

1 A. Below the age of 18.

2 JUDGE RIAD: Witness J, thank you very much, and I apologise for

3 having been too long. Thank you.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

5 Judge Riad.

6 Madam Judge Wald has the floor.

7 JUDGE WALD: Witness J, I believe you testified that when you went

8 to clean the rooms where the interrogations had gone on, you, on occasion,

9 would see signs of blood and sometimes signs of torn clothing, and I think

10 you also testified that sometimes when you were downstairs in the

11 restaurant, you could hear sounds of blows or cries coming from the

12 interrogation rooms upstairs.

13 My question to you is: Were you ever in a position to see or

14 perhaps even hear from other detainees whether detainees were beaten in

15 the interrogation rooms on order of the investigators or on somebody

16 else's orders? In other words, if they were beaten during the

17 interrogation, are you in a position to know who gave that order? Would

18 it be the interrogators or would it be some of the regular camp command?

19 If you know.

20 A. As to those who issued orders for beatings and torture, I don't

21 know who it was.

22 JUDGE WALD: During the interrogations. Well, what time, to your

23 knowledge -- approximately what time would the interrogators go home at

24 night, leave the camp?

25 A. Until evening time, when they would finish the work and leave.

Page 4935

1 Sometimes they would pass through the restaurant and sometimes not.

2 JUDGE WALD: But it would be --

3 A. It would have been by 6.00, half past 6.00. Sometimes earlier,

4 sometimes later.

5 JUDGE WALD: Then am I correct that -- you also testified about

6 hearing cries, seeing people brought out, seeing bodies, dead bodies, the

7 next morning. Did some of these occurrences, the calling out of people,

8 any beatings that you might have seen and told us about, the dead bodies,

9 occur at night-time, after the interrogators had gone home?

10 A. My assumption is that it took place during the night, because in

11 the morning we would count the dead bodies. Our daily -- our day would

12 begin with counting the dead.

13 But I apologise. I didn't complete one of my previous answers in

14 response to your first question.

15 JUDGE WALD: Go ahead.

16 A. I could clearly see people being taken from the interrogations,

17 people being carried from interrogations covered in blood and being thrown

18 out on the pista.

19 JUDGE WALD: But if I understand your prior answer, you were not

20 in a position to know, if a beating occurred during the interrogation, who

21 ordered it, whether it was the interrogator or whether it was some other

22 member of the guard who was in the interrogation room. You said you

23 didn't know; is that right?

24 A. That is correct.

25 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Now, my last question, if you can. You've

Page 4936

1 just finished recounting again your seeing dead bodies in the morning.

2 You've also told us a number of times when you saw somebody called out or

3 you saw somebody beaten and then you never saw them again.

4 Are you able to tell us the -- not the exact total number of such

5 people who you either saw dead bodies or they disappeared and you never

6 saw them again, but just in a general category, would you say the total

7 during your entire time in the camp would be in the dozens, in the

8 hundreds, in the thousands? I mean, if you took all the people together

9 that you either saw dead or you saw being called out or beaten and never

10 saw again, approximately what would that total be?

11 A. Twenty, 25, sometimes 30.

12 JUDGE WALD: That would be -- when you say "25, sometimes 30," you

13 mean for the whole period you were in Omarska or for a lesser period?

14 A. Sometimes on a particular day we would count up to 20. I'm

15 referring to the dead whose bodies were thrown out on the lawn in front of

16 the "white house."

17 JUDGE WALD: And that occurred every day, just some days, almost

18 every day? Which?

19 A. Almost every day.

20 JUDGE WALD: All right, thank you.

21 A. Sometimes even more frequently.

22 JUDGE WALD: Thank you.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness J, I have three

24 questions for you.

25 In your opinion, what are the characteristics of the voice of

Page 4937

1 Krle? What is it that enables you to identify that voice as his?

2 A. On the first day of my testimony here, I told you that he had been

3 very loud. He was shouting. He was yelling.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] [No translation]

5 A. That was one of the reasons as well.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Excuse me, "How could you exactly identify his

7 voice?"

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] My second question, as regards

9 water and food, the detainees and the camp personnel, what kind of water

10 and what kind of food did they have, did they get?

11 A. We had completely different food. The detainees would receive

12 every day one meal which consisted of a very small piece of bread; some

13 stew, usually bean stew, which had gone bad because of the temperatures,

14 very high temperatures; and a piece -- a leaf or two of cabbage. That was

15 the only meal that we would get in the camp.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, as regards the detainees.

17 What about the camp personnel?

18 A. The food was brought to them. It was a different kind of food,

19 cooked food, which was usually brought -- carried through the restaurant.

20 Those were pieces of meat, they had wine, water with ice in it, beer,

21 coffee, very large plates of meat and side dishes. That food was taken to

22 the offices where the interrogations took place.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So I know that you have partly

24 answered my question, my following question, but I will still ask you.

25 Where exactly did they have their food? Where would they eat?

Page 4938

1 A. My assumption is that they would eat in the offices where they

2 worked because the food was carried over to them. They wouldn't come down

3 to the restaurant to eat, though from time to time an interrogator would

4 come down to the restaurant and have a beer, for instance.

5 There was a man working in the kitchen with us. He had a kind of

6 work obligation, work duty there. His name was Zoran Delic. So he would

7 bring them some beer or coffee. But they never ate there. I never saw

8 them eating there, any of the investigators, with my own eyes.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Still as regards the food and

10 water, this is what you could observe during the day?

11 A. Yes. I was about to answer that question as well. Thank you for

12 reminding me.

13 I said that we had drunk that water, and that water, as far as we

14 heard, was prohibited from use because it was industrial water. It was

15 not potable water.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm sorry to interrupt you,

17 Witness J, but my question was, the camp personnel and the detainees, did

18 they drink the same water?

19 A. No.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So the detainees drank the water

21 that you have just described, and what about the camp personnel? What

22 kind of water did they drink?

23 A. The water was brought to them. I saw jerrycans with water near

24 the restaurant, and they drank that water. The water was brought from

25 elsewhere. And on one occasion, a guard told us that it was spring water,

Page 4939

1 natural spring water.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Let me ask my third question.

3 Do you know individuals, several individuals by the surname or the name of

4 Zigic?

5 A. I knew the former secretary of the SUP before the war, Rajko

6 Zigic, who passed away, before the war, and the accused.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Assuming that you have

8 recognised a certain Zigic here, what is it that enables you to

9 distinguish him from the other one?

10 A. They do not resemble each other at all.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Actually, I have a fourth

12 question, which will be the last one.

13 You mentioned an individual by the name of Zoran Delic. When one

14 has to have -- has to do a work obligation, a work duty, be it within the

15 army or within the police, that individual must then wear a uniform or

16 some other type of clothing?

17 A. He usually wore a uniform, a former JNA uniform, olive drab in

18 colour, and he always carried a weapon.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But let us imagine if one is

20 performing a security duty, a policeman -- there are individuals who are

21 seconded to perform that kind of task who are detached -- do they have to

22 wear the same clothes as a professional policeman and behave according to

23 the same rules, or is there a difference in their status?

24 A. I don't know. I really don't know what type of clothing they

25 should wear.

Page 4940

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you. I just

2 was interested in this work obligation.

3 Witness J, thank you very much. We have come to the end of your

4 testimony here. Thank you once again for coming to the Tribunal, for

5 having had the courage to come here and testify. Let me just wish you a

6 safe journey back to your place of residence, and I hope that you will

7 enjoy life that is still before you. Let me now ask the usher to lower

8 the blinds and show you out of the courtroom.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10 [The witness withdrew]

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Keegan.

12 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour. At this time we'd like to offer

13 Exhibits 3/116A and B, and 3/117A and B.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.

15 Mr. Krstan Simic, I think that you, too, have some documents you

16 would like admitted into evidence.

17 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm speaking on behalf

18 of all the Defence counsel and teams. We have no objection to these

19 documents being admitted into evidence.

20 For our part, I should like to offer the following documents.

21 They have already been marked for identification purposes. D30, it is a

22 photograph on which Witness J drew in the positions of certain individuals

23 at the time she looked at the photograph and was watching.

24 The second document is the text that we discussed at length, and

25 we consider that this text is highly relevant, and we shall leave it up to

Page 4941

1 the Trial Chamber to decide and to see the way in which it was taken,

2 because there were a lot of attempts to try and show this document in a

3 different light. There were quotations from the conference. So just one

4 remark there.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, just have the

6 documents tendered without any further comment. I don't think that the

7 Defence has in any other documents it wishes admitted into evidence. No?

8 Right.

9 Mr. Keegan.

10 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour. I'm not sure exactly what the

11 second document is. I'm assuming it's the newspaper article.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, it is the newspaper

13 article, Mr. Keegan.

14 MR. KEEGAN: Thank you, Your Honour. We, of course, have no

15 objections to the photograph.

16 Your Honour, I think we would object to the newspaper article on

17 the grounds that the witness indicated that, first, when asked specific

18 questions about whether she said a certain thing or not, she indicated

19 that she didn't say that. In addition, based on the questions asked in

20 redirect, it's clear she didn't adopt the article, it was never shown to

21 her, and she can't confirm that any of it was, in fact, her words. So we

22 don't believe that it should be accepted by the Trial Chamber.

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The Chamber allows the

25 admittance into evidence of the Prosecution documents 3/116, and 3/117,

Page 4942

1 and the Defence asked document 30/1 and 31/1, I think, to be admitted.

2 The registrar has the exact numbers and markings.

3 Mr. Keegan, can you call the other witness now?

4 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour. That would be Witness K.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Please have the

6 witness shown in.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Can we move into closed session?

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. That is necessary because

9 the witness is to be heard in closed session.

10 [Closed session]

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22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.07 p.m.,

23 to be reconvened on Friday, the 8th day of

24 September, 2000, at 9.30 a.m.

25