Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5672

1 Tuesday, 26 September 2000

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated. Good

6 morning.

7 Good morning, ladies and gentlemen; the technical booth, the

8 interpreters; good morning, legal assistants; good morning, the registrar;

9 good morning to the Office of the Prosecutor. I see that today Mr. Keegan

10 is with us. Good morning, Defence counsel; good morning, the accused.

11 So we shall now resume our case and continue the testimony of

12 Witness AQ.

13 Mr. Keegan.

14 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour. If I might, just before we start,

15 there are a few administrative issues I'd just like to raise with the

16 Court so the Court's aware of what will be happening.

17 With respect to the remainder of this week, following the current

18 witness, the next witness will be Mr. Husein Ganic. Because of logistical

19 difficulties, the individual who was scheduled to be next won't be

20 arriving until today, so Mr. Husein Ganic will be the next witness in the

21 case.

22 I will discuss the other witnesses at the end because we'll need

23 to go into private session, but remaining issues are I have spoken with

24 the Defence counsel with regards to the testimony of expert witnesses

25 pursuant to Rule 94 bis. As the Court is aware, we filed the statements,

Page 5673

1 the reports of several witnesses. The Defence does not object under

2 Rule 94 bis (B), and, therefore, we would not intend to call any of those

3 individuals and would seek the admission of their reports under

4 94 bis (C).

5 In that instance, Your Honour, we'll be filing the order for next

6 week this morning of the witnesses then, and I've advised the Defence

7 already who those witnesses will be for the given next week; and then

8 there will be, of course, a few alternates, depending on how quickly we go

9 through the initial witnesses who were scheduled.

10 The issue of the consolidated indictment, Your Honour, I would

11 like to raise again briefly. We've received the response from Mr. Simic

12 on that issue. I'm sure the Trial Chamber is aware of that. The other

13 Defence counsel again advise me they're still waiting for the

14 interpretation into the Serbian language.

15 As Your Honours recall, I raised that issue twice before the

16 Chamber. We then talked to the Registry ourselves and were told that they

17 hadn't realised that it needed to be translated, so they sent it off and

18 anticipated it would be done before the end of this week.

19 So again, Your Honour, if that can be done to make that happen,

20 since it should be merely a cut and paste of existing translations. And

21 if, Your Honour, we could go into private session now to talk about the

22 witness issues.

23 JUDGE WALD: Mr. Keegan, what about the 94 ter, the affidavits?

24 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour. Those charts have been redrafted,

25 and, in fact, I'm going to be reviewing them today. Hopefully we'll have

Page 5674

1 them filed this afternoon.

2 JUDGE WALD: All right.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Let us go into

4 private session, please, for a few minutes.

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14 [Open session]

15 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, while we're waiting perhaps I can ask --

16 I see the usher has left. I'll start over.

17 [The witness entered court]

18 WITNESS: WITNESS AQ [Resumed]

19 [Witness answered through interpreter]

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness AQ.

21 A. Good morning.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may take a seat.

23 A. Thank you.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Do you feel rested?

25 A. Yes, thank you.

Page 5679

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I should like to remind you that

2 you are continuing to testify under oath, and you will be answering

3 questions which Mr. Saxon still has left to ask you.

4 Mr. Saxon needs the usher, I know, but the usher is busy. He'll

5 be available in a minute.

6 Mr. Saxon, you have the usher in front of you.

7 Examined by Mr. Saxon: [Continued]

8 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour. If I might ask the usher to

9 assist me by placing the diagram that was marked yesterday as Prosecution

10 Exhibit 3/130 on the ELMO by the witness, please.

11 Q. Witness AQ, yesterday you described how you were detained in the

12 Omarska camp in a shower area, and you noted on the diagram that's to your

13 right that it was the area that is marked as B23. Do you see that?

14 A. [No translation]

15 Q. I didn't hear a response.

16 A. Yes, I do see it.

17 Q. Approximately how many men were detained within that shower area

18 that's designated B23 on the diagram beside you?

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Mr. Saxon. We cannot

20 see it on the monitor. Perhaps the witness could point to the area so

21 that we can follow what is being said.

22 MR. SAXON:

23 Q. Could you use the pointer again, Witness AQ, to point to the area

24 known as or marked as B23. It's within Room 15.

25 A. This is this area here. There were ten showers in here.

Page 5680

1 Q. Thank you. And, Witness AQ, approximately how many men were

2 detained within that shower area that's designated B23 on that diagram?

3 A. The number varied between 40 and 50 people.

4 Q. Did you prefer to remain inside that shower area?

5 A. Yes. I wanted to stay in the area where the showers were.

6 Q. Why is that?

7 A. Because it was a sort of sheltered area from the eyes of the

8 guards.

9 Q. Can you explain, by again pointing to the diagram, how that shower

10 area was sheltered from the eyes of the guards?

11 A. If the guards want to come to this area, B23, they have to enter

12 Room 15, cross the whole area of B7, pass through the corridor and then

13 actually enter inside in order to be able to see me in the shower.

14 Q. And why were you concerned about the need for shelter?

15 A. Because it often happened that the guards would open the door,

16 point a finger at one or several people, and just call them out.

17 Q. Just so the record is clear, when you say that the guards would

18 "open the door," again can you point to the diagram and indicate which

19 door and where it was?

20 A. The door was the door leading to Room 15, this one here.

21 Q. And is that the doorway leading to what's marked as B7 on the

22 diagram next to you?

23 A. Correct. Correct.

24 Q. Yesterday you mentioned a fellow detainee by the name of Miroslav

25 Solaja. Where was Miroslav Solaja before he was brought to the Omarska

Page 5681

1 camp?

2 A. Miroslav Solaja was in the Keraterm camp.

3 Q. Was Miroslav Solaja ever called out for interrogation at the

4 Omarska camp?

5 A. Yes, he was called out for interrogation.

6 Q. Approximately how many times was Miroslav Solaja called out for

7 interrogation?

8 A. They called him out three times.

9 Q. Approximately when was Miroslav Solaja called out for his first

10 interrogation?

11 A. Approximately six or seven days after he arrived in the Omarska

12 camp.

13 Q. And what month would that have been?

14 A. That would be in the month of June, 1992.

15 Q. When Miroslav Solaja returned to that shower area after his first

16 interrogation, what, if anything, did he tell you?

17 A. Miroslav Solaja said that he had been interrogated and that the

18 inspectors were accusing him of having been the leader of 50 Green Berets

19 and that he had transported arms from Croatia to Bosnia-Herzegovina.

20 Q. If you know, who were these so-called Green Berets?

21 A. Those Green Berets, according to the Serb forces and the Serb

22 guards, were Muslim extremists.

23 Q. And regarding these allegations that Mr. Solaja had transported

24 arms from Croatia to Bosnia, did Mr. Solaja explain how he allegedly or

25 how he was accused of transporting such arms?

Page 5682

1 A. He was accused because he drove the regular bus line from Prijedor

2 to Zagreb, and he was accused that when driving the bus and people in the

3 bus, that at the same time he transported weapons.

4 Q. After Miroslav Solaja returned from his first interrogation, how

5 would you describe his appearance and his demeanour?

6 A. Miroslav Solaja looked like a frightened man who was afraid for

7 his life.

8 Q. What happened the second time that Miroslav Solaja was called out

9 for interrogation?

10 A. Well, when he returned for the second time from the interrogation,

11 Miroslav Solaja looked like somebody who had been beaten up. He was a

12 beaten-up man.

13 Q. What injuries, if any, did you observe on Miroslav Solaja's body

14 when he returned to your room after his second interrogation?

15 A. Miroslav Solaja had some injuries on his head, but the most

16 serious injuries were on his left hand and the left side of his back.

17 Q. Just so the record is clear, were the most serious injuries that

18 you observed on Miroslav Solaja's left hand or his left arm?

19 A. On the upper part; that is to say, the upper part of his left

20 arm.

21 Q. And what injuries were you able to observe about Miroslav Solaja's

22 left arm?

23 A. It looked -- it was all bruised from the beating. It was all

24 black and blue, the whole upper part of the left arm.

25 Q. What happened on the third occasion that Miroslav Solaja was

Page 5683

1 called out for interrogation?

2 A. The third time he came back from the interrogation, he looked

3 worse than ever, and he told us that they had beaten him on the same parts

4 they had beaten him the previous times, that is to say, on the left-hand

5 side, on his left upper arm, and the left side of his back.

6 Q. Was Miroslav Solaja able to walk under his own power after his

7 third interrogation?

8 A. No, he was not able to walk. When he entered Room 15, he was

9 helped by some of the other detainees to the shower area.

10 Q. And after that third interrogation, what injuries, if any, could

11 you observe on Miroslav Solaja's body?

12 A. His left arm seemed to be broken, and on the left arm he also had

13 several colours; red and black and blue and green, all colours.

14 Q. Did Miroslav Solaja receive any medical treatment from camp

15 personnel for his injuries?

16 A. No, he did not receive any treatment at all.

17 Q. After Miroslav Solaja returned from his third interrogation, what

18 happened to Miroslav Solaja's physical and mental condition?

19 A. His physical and mental condition was terrible. He was in a

20 terrible state because neither physically nor mentally was he actually

21 functioning anymore.

22 Q. And could you be a little bit more specific? What do you mean

23 when you say Solaja was not functioning either physically nor mentally?

24 A. Well, physically speaking, he wasn't able to get up at all. He

25 was not able to use his left or right hand when he wanted to drink some

Page 5684

1 water or anything like that. And his physical state, his psychological

2 state, he had gone quite mad.

3 Q. Did you or any of the other prisoners in that shower area provide

4 assistance to Mr. Solaja?

5 A. Well, we tried to help him. We gave him water. We would

6 sometimes get him up because he would ask us to raise him a bit to sit and

7 lie, so we helped him there. I helped him and so did the other

8 detainees. We did what he asked us.

9 Q. Did any of the Omarska guards provide any special assistance to

10 Mr. Solaja during that time?

11 A. No.

12 Q. What assistance, if any, did an Omarska guard named Baka or Bakaj

13 provide to Mr. Solaja at that time?

14 A. Well, he helped him by bringing him food.

15 Q. What happened on the last few days that you saw Miroslav Solaja at

16 the Omarska camp?

17 A. Miroslav Solaja had -- was quite beside himself those last few

18 days, and he just lay there. He screamed from the pain. He repeated what

19 he'd said before.

20 Q. And approximately what time period are we talking about?

21 A. We're talking about sometime between the 20th and 25th. At the

22 end of June 1992.

23 Q. What happened on the last day that you saw Miroslav Solaja in the

24 Omarska camp?

25 A. The last day I saw Miroslav Solaja, I had gone to the WC, the door

Page 5685

1 was open, and he cried out something that I couldn't understand because he

2 was in pain. And out in the corridor I saw a guard who asked what was

3 going on, what was -- what the noise was about, and I said that one of the

4 detainees was asking for help, that his arm was broken. And he said --

5 the guard asked which detainee, and I said Miroslav Solaja. And then he

6 said to me, "Well, he's done so much evil to the Serb people that he

7 doesn't deserve help."

8 Q. Witness AQ, do you recall the name of that guard who you spoke to

9 on that occasion?

10 A. We used to call him Neso. I think his name was Janjic or Panic,

11 Nenad.

12 Q. Was the guard named Neso, or the guard you referred to as Neso,

13 alone at that time?

14 A. Another guard came up, and he asked who I was asking assistance

15 for. And then the first one said, "That's the one who trod the sister of

16 a doctor of some kind," some doctor. He had done something to his sister.

17 Q. Witness AQ, just so the record is clear, you say another guard

18 came up. Do you know the name of that guard?

19 A. The guard's name was Rade Ritan.

20 Q. And when you refer to the first one, which guard are you referring

21 to?

22 A. The first guard was Neso, and the second guard was Ritan, Rade.

23 Q. What happened, if anything, to Miroslav Solaja later that same

24 day?

25 A. I went back to the premises, and I told him that they had said

Page 5686

1 that he didn't merit assistance, deserve it, and he said that he'd done

2 nothing wrong. And perhaps an hour later he was taken into a room that we

3 called the sick room.

4 Q. Witness AQ, I'd like you to pick up the pointer again, please, and

5 refer to that diagram next to you, and could you indicate on that diagram

6 approximately where this room known as the sick room was located.

7 A. These are the rooms on the right-hand side of this corridor. I

8 don't know if it was B4 or B5.

9 Q. Were you ever inside the so-called sick people's room?

10 A. No, never.

11 Q. To your knowledge, were all sick and injured persons in Omarska

12 sent to the so-called sick people's room or the sick room?

13 A. No, not all injured persons or sick persons were sent to the sick

14 room.

15 Q. To your knowledge, how were decisions made as to who would be

16 transferred to the so-called sick room?

17 A. Mostly people who went to the sick room were those who had -- who

18 knew some of the guards, who had some strings to pull, 'cause we thought

19 that they were treated a little better in the sick room than they were

20 elsewhere.

21 Q. Can you describe Miroslav Solaja's condition and appearance when

22 he was transferred to the so-called sick room that day?

23 A. Miroslav Solaja was in a pitiful state, both mentally and

24 physically. He was half dead, but he was wearing a trainer suit which he

25 had on throughout the time he spent in Omarska, and he had shoes on his

Page 5687

1 feet.

2 Q. Did Miroslav Solaja ever return to Room 15 from the so-called sick

3 room?

4 A. No, he never returned.

5 Q. Did you receive any information as to what happened to Miroslav

6 Solaja after he left Room 15?

7 A. After he left Room 15, perhaps some two or three hours later, we

8 heard that Miroslav Solaja was dead.

9 Q. Did you ever see Miroslav Solaja again in the Omarska camp?

10 A. No, I never saw him again.

11 Q. And to this day, have you seen Miroslav Solaja alive or had any

12 contact with him?

13 A. No. I never saw Miroslav Solaja again to the present day, nor did

14 I have any contact with him.

15 Q. Prior to the war in 1992, do you know where Miroslav Solaja lived?

16 A. I think he lived in the town of Prijedor.

17 Q. Witness AQ, if you could turn your mind now to the subject of the

18 personnel who worked at the Omarska camp.

19 MR. SAXON: And perhaps, Mr. Usher, if you could remove the

20 exhibit that's on the ELMO, please. Thank you.

21 Q. Witness AQ, prior to your detention in the Omarska camp, did you

22 know a man named Miroslav Kvocka?

23 A. No, I did not know a man called Miroslav Kvocka.

24 Q. During your detention in the Omarska camp, did you become familiar

25 with a man named Miroslav Kvocka?

Page 5688

1 A. Well, I can say that I didn't meet him personally, but I did learn

2 and I did see a man by the name of Miroslav Kvocka.

3 Q. Well, how did you learn Miroslav Kvocka's identity?

4 A. On one occasion when we were going back after our meal, from the

5 restaurant, we were lined up in columns in front of the "white house," and

6 a man was standing in front of the restaurant with the rest of the guards,

7 and one of the detainees said, "That's Miroslav Kvocka."

8 Q. And approximately how soon after your arrival in the Omarska camp

9 did this occur?

10 A. Perhaps a month later, a month after my arrival in Omarska.

11 Q. What month would that have occurred in?

12 A. That would make it the end of June 1992.

13 Q. Approximately how many times did you see Mr. Kvocka while you were

14 detained in the Omarska camp?

15 A. Well, I saw him perhaps five or six times.

16 Q. And what would the circumstances be of when you saw Mr. Kvocka?

17 A. I usually saw him on my way to the restaurant for the meal, and

18 when I was coming out of the restaurant.

19 MR. SAXON: Mr. Usher, if I could impose on you again, please, to

20 place one of these photographs by the witness, and if one could be marked

21 as the Prosecution's Exhibit 3/132 and distributed to the Chamber and to

22 the Defence, please.

23 Q. Witness AQ, if I could direct your attention to the photograph

24 that's been placed to your right, does that photograph depict the entrance

25 to the restaurant building at the Omarska camp?

Page 5689

1 A. That's right, yes. That photograph shows the entrance to the

2 restaurant of Omarska.

3 Q. Could you please pick up the pen that's in front of you, Witness

4 AQ, and write the letters "MK" in the area you would see Mr. Kvocka on

5 those occasions.

6 A. This is the spot roughly where I saw Miroslav Kvocka for the first

7 time in Omarska camp.

8 Q. Could you put a "1" by the letters "MK" that you've just written.

9 A. This is roughly the spot where I saw him the second time, and they

10 are spots where I would usually see Mr. Miroslav Kvocka in the camp.

11 Q. Could you take that pen again, please, and draw an arrow to show

12 your route going in or coming out of the restaurant building, and mark the

13 arrow with the letters "AQ."

14 A. [Marks]

15 Q. Witness AQ, as you passed Miroslav Kvocka on those occasions,

16 about how close would you be to him?

17 A. About 3 to 4 metres, maybe 5, depending.

18 Q. And would you be going into the restaurant alone or with other

19 prisoners?

20 A. No, I would always go with other prisoners, in a group of

21 30 people.

22 Q. On those occasions, what wounds or injuries, if any, would be

23 visible on the prisoners as they passed Miroslav Kvocka?

24 A. Well, his clothing. That was obvious because it was bloody. And

25 injuries on his head, his eyes. His eyes were all black or blue and

Page 5690

1 bloody.

2 Q. Just so that the record is clear -- I'm not sure perhaps if there

3 is a translation problem or perhaps my question was not clear. The

4 English translation that I'm reading seems to use the pronoun "his"

5 clothing and "his" eyes were black. Are you referring to a particular

6 prisoner or are you referring to different prisoners?

7 A. I'm referring to different prisoners. That means prisoners who

8 went to the restaurant building. Their clothing was bloody. Many of them

9 had injuries on their face and on their head, their arms and legs. They

10 didn't walk properly.

11 Q. On those occasions, did Miroslav Kvocka ever ask the prisoners

12 close to you how they received their wounds or injuries?

13 A. No. Miroslav Kvocka never asked anybody. At least, I didn't hear

14 him.

15 Q. On those occasions, did Miroslav Kvocka ever offer any medical or

16 other assistance to the prisoners?

17 A. Miroslav Kvocka, on those occasions, never offered any kind of

18 assistance.

19 Q. If you know, what was Miroslav Kvocka's position in the Omarska

20 camp?

21 A. I heard that he was the deputy commander of the camp in Omarska.

22 Q. And how did you hear that Mr. Kvocka was the deputy commander?

23 A. I heard that in Room 15, where I spent my time, from the other

24 detainees.

25 Q. Can you describe what Miroslav Kvocka looked like when you saw him

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Page 5692

1 in the Omarska camp?

2 A. When I saw him in the Omarska camp, Miroslav Kvocka was wearing a

3 camouflage police uniform. He had sunglasses on and leather gloves

4 without the fingertips.

5 Q. About how tall was Mr. Kvocka?

6 A. He was about a metre 80.

7 Q. How would you describe his build?

8 A. How shall I put it? He was normally built, which means that he

9 wasn't too thin or too fat, and he had brown, wavy hair.

10 Q. Witness AQ, prior to your detention in the Omarska camp during

11 1992, did you know a man named Milojica Kos?

12 A. I knew a man named Milojica Kos before I came to Omarska camp.

13 Q. How did you know Milojica Kos before the war?

14 A. Because I went to school in Omarska. Milojica Kos and I played

15 football in Omarska, and I was in Omarska fairly often. So I had occasion

16 to see Milojica Kos, who was a waiter.

17 Q. And where would you have occasion to see Milojica Kos?

18 A. Well, I had occasion to see him during the football games, when I

19 went to Omarska on market day, or while he was working as a waiter. I

20 would also see him in Prijedor, in passing. I saw him on a number of

21 occasions.

22 Q. Did you ever speak to Milojica Kos on those occasions?

23 A. I never spoke to him alone, that is to say, the two of us.

24 Perhaps we were together with other people sometimes when there were

25 discussions about football games or something like that, but I never

Page 5693

1 actually spoke to him alone.

2 Q. Did Milojica Kos have a nickname?

3 A. Yes. We knew him better as Krle. So his nickname was Krle.

4 Q. Where was Milojica Kos from?

5 A. As far as I know, he was from the village of Kosovi.

6 Q. Where is the village of Kosovi?

7 A. Kosovi is near Omarska, between my own village and Omarska.

8 Q. While you were detained at the Omarska camp, did you ever see

9 Milojica Kos there?

10 A. Yes. I saw him a number of times there.

11 Q. How soon after your arrival in the Omarska camp did you begin to

12 see Milojica Kos?

13 A. Well, I can't tell you exactly, but it might have been some 10 to

14 15 days later. Perhaps ten days later.

15 Q. So that would have been at some point during the month of June?

16 A. Yes, that would have been sometime in the month of June. Perhaps

17 the beginning of June or the end of the first week of June.

18 Q. When, if ever, did you see Milojica Kos present when prisoners at

19 the Omarska camp were mistreated?

20 A. I saw him at least twice on occasions of that kind when the

21 prisoners were mistreated. The first time was at the end of June 1992.

22 Q. Let's talk about that first incident. What happened on that

23 occasion in the end of June 1992?

24 A. We were going to the restaurant to have our meal. In front of the

25 restaurant, the guards started beating us, and among them present there

Page 5694

1 was Milojica Kos, who also beat them.

2 Q. And when you say that Milojica Kos also beat them, how did

3 Milojica Kos beat the prisoners?

4 A. As we were entering the restaurant building -- that means this

5 entrance here -- the guards were lined up around here. Milojica Kos had a

6 baton in his hand, and he [Realtime transcript read in error "we"] hit

7 with that baton. So this is what he would do. He would do it like this.

8 MR. SAXON: If the record can indicate the witness is moving his

9 arm up and down.

10 Mr. Usher, if I could impose on you again, please, to place a copy

11 of this photograph on the ELMO, and if one copy could be marked as

12 Prosecution's Exhibit 3/133, please. And I've brought copies for the

13 Chamber and for the Defence as well. I'm going to ask the witness to

14 annotate this photograph.

15 Q. Just so that the record is clear, I notice in the transcript the

16 witness is quoted as saying Milojica Kos had a baton in his hand "and we

17 hit with that baton."

18 Witness, AQ, should the word be "and he hit with that baton"?

19 A. Yes. Yes. Exactly so.

20 Q. If you could take a look at the photograph that's been placed on

21 the machine beside you. Again, does this photograph depict the entrance

22 to the restaurant and administration building at Omarska?

23 A. Yes. That is the photograph showing the entrance to the

24 restaurant building.

25 Q. Could you pick up the pen in front you and mark the area where you

Page 5695

1 saw Milojica Kos on that day with the letters "KOS" and then the number

2 "1."

3 A. [Marks]

4 Q. And what did you see Mr. Kos doing when he was standing at that

5 spot?

6 A. Milojica Kos beat the detainees entering the restaurant building

7 for their meal on that occasion.

8 Q. Could you mark your route into that building with an arrow and the

9 letters "AQ," please.

10 A. [Marks]

11 Q. Witness AQ, were there any manholes in that area?

12 A. Yes, there was a manhole that was open. So it was along our route

13 as we entered the restaurant building, and it was open on that occasion,

14 and in front of it was a chair which was in our way as we were

15 approaching. So if you tried to avoid the chair, you could fall into the

16 manhole.

17 Q. Could you mark the spot where the manhole was with an "X",

18 please.

19 A. Roughly here.

20 Q. Did anyone from your group fall into the manhole that day?

21 A. No, no one from my group fell into the manhole that day.

22 Q. Witness AQ, were you beaten as you entered the restaurant that

23 day?

24 A. Yes, that day, as I came out of the restaurant.

25 Q. So you were beaten as you exited the restaurant that day; is that

Page 5696

1 correct?

2 A. Yes, correct.

3 Q. What were you struck with?

4 A. It was a kind of whip at the end of which was a ball with spikes

5 on it.

6 Q. Was Milojica Kos present when you were struck with that whip as

7 you exited the restaurant building?

8 A. Yes, he was present also as we came out of the building.

9 Q. What, if anything, did Milojica Kos say when you were being struck

10 with this whip?

11 A. Milojica Kos didn't say anything on that occasion.

12 Q. Did Milojica Kos intervene at all to stop your beating or the

13 beatings of the other prisoners in your group?

14 A. No. Milojica Kos did not intervene at all on that occasion.

15 Q. Witness AQ, was there another occasion when you saw Milojica Kos

16 present when prisoners at Omarska were mistreated?

17 A. Yes. I saw him on one other occasion, the 27th of July, 1992.

18 Q. Witness AQ, why do you recall that date so clearly?

19 A. Because on that day one of the guards in the Omarska camp seized

20 the sport shoes I was wearing from me.

21 Q. What was the name of the guard who took your sport shoes?

22 A. The guard's name was Drazenko Predojevic.

23 Q. And at approximately what time did you see Milojica Kos on the

24 27th of July?

25 A. It was about -- it was in the morning, between 9 and 10 a.m. on

Page 5697

1 the 27th of July.

2 Q. And where were you at that time?

3 A. At the time, we were heading for the restaurant building to eat,

4 though it was very rare that the inmates of Room 15 went to eat so early.

5 Q. Where did you see Milojica Kos that morning?

6 A. He was approximately where I marked the letters "KOS 1." He was

7 roughly at that same spot.

8 Q. Was Mr. Kos alone at that time?

9 A. No, Mr. Kos was not alone on that occasion. There were other

10 guards around, and we were also mistreated then.

11 Q. Can you recall the names of the other guards who were with

12 Milojica Kos that morning?

13 A. One of them was Milan Popovic, another one was Miroslav Stojnic,

14 and I don't remember the others.

15 Q. Did you know Milan Popovic from before the war?

16 A. (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 Q. What were these other guards, such as Milan Popovic and Miroslav

19 Stojnic and others, doing at that time?

20 A. They were beating us as we entered the restaurant building at the

21 time.

22 Q. As you approached the entrance to the restaurant, did Milan

23 Popovic beat you?

24 A. No. As I approached the entrance of the restaurant, I noticed

25 Milan Popovic beating the detainees in front of us, and when I saw that it

Page 5698

1 was Milan Popovic -- we detainees were prone to protect our heads when

2 such things happened, that is, when they beat us. So when I saw Milan

3 Popovic at the entrance, I lowered my hands, wanting to see whether Milan

4 Popovic would hit me; and he did recognise me, and he did not hit me.

5 Q. What, if anything, did Milan Popovic say at that time?

6 A. As we were entering the restaurant building, at the time he cursed

7 the detainees, their Muslim mothers.

8 Q. What did Milan Popovic use to beat the prisoners at that time?

9 A. He had a baton in his hands.

10 Q. Who, if anyone, did Milan Popovic particularly mistreat at that

11 time?

12 A. At that time, a detainee was particularly mistreated. He was a

13 tall, fair man, wearing a red sweater and rubber boots on his feet.

14 Q. What happened to the tall man wearing the red sweater and the

15 rubber boots?

16 A. On that occasion, Milan Popovic said that this detainee, because

17 he was wearing rubber boots, this meant that he had been preparing for

18 battle against the Serbs, so they threw him down on the ground, and then

19 they hit him with their hands, feet, rifle butts, anything they could lay

20 their hands on.

21 Q. What was Milojica Kos doing at that time?

22 A. Just then I didn't notice Milojica Kos beating the detainees, but

23 he was standing there.

24 Q. Did Milojica Kos intervene to stop the beating of prisoners as

25 they entered the restaurant on that day?

Page 5699

1 A. No. Milojica Kos did not intervene at all to stop the beating.

2 MR. SAXON: Mr. Usher, if I could ask for your help again. I have

3 a photograph which I'd like to be placed on the ELMO, and if a copy of

4 this could be marked as Prosecution Exhibit 3/134, please.

5 Q. Witness AQ, if you could take a look at the photograph that's been

6 placed to your right, is that photograph -- does that photograph also

7 depict the entrance to the restaurant building at Omarska?

8 A. Yes, that is the photograph showing the entrance to Omarska.

9 Q. Could you pick up the pen in front of you, please, and mark with

10 an "X" the spot where, the approximate spot where the tall man wearing the

11 red sweater was beaten.

12 A. [Marks].

13 Q. And could you mark with the letters "KOS 2" the area where you saw

14 Milojica Kos at that time.

15 A. [Marks].

16 Q. And could you mark with an arrow and the letters "AQ"

17 approximately where you were at that time.

18 A. [Marks].

19 Q. Thank you.

20 MR. SAXON: That photograph can be removed now, please. Thank

21 you.

22 Q. Witness AQ, prior to your detention in the Omarska camp, were you

23 in good health?

24 A. Yes, I was in very good health.

25 Q. What physical, medical, or psychological problems have you

Page 5700

1 suffered as a result of your detention in the Omarska camp?

2 A. Physical consequences of my detention are that I frequently have

3 problems with my spine, to the right of my spine, and frequent

4 inflammations of my right kidney.

5 Q. Had you sought medical treatment for the problems with your spine

6 and kidney?

7 A. Yes, I often go to see the doctor. And before I came here, I was

8 given a shot in my back because I had very serious problems with my spine

9 recently. I couldn't move very easily. I was rather stiff, and I asked

10 for an injection to make it easier for me to come here.

11 Q. What has your doctor or your doctors told you about the cause of

12 the pain in your spine?

13 A. The doctor asked me whether I had done any heavy work, heavy

14 labour, when I went to see him for the first time. And then I told him

15 that I had been in camps, that for almost two and a half months I had

16 slept on tiles in one camp, in the other camp on the ground, on the

17 grass. And then he told me that this was due to that, that the pain had

18 penetrated the bones, and when there is a change of weather or when I

19 catch cold, then I feel the pain.

20 Q. Just so the record is clear, where were you when you slept on

21 tiles for two and a half months?

22 A. I slept on tiles in the Omarska camp in Room 15, in the shower

23 room for two and a half months; and the other period that I slept on the

24 ground was in the Trnopolje camp.

25 Q. Did you or any members of your family suffer lost or damaged

Page 5701

1 property in the Prijedor area during 1992?

2 A. I and my brothers and my father have lost virtually all the

3 property that we had before the war in the territory of Prijedor

4 municipality.

5 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, at this time I'd like to ask the Trial

6 Chamber's permission to go into private session. And I must apologise.

7 Yesterday I inadvertently informed the Court that I would not be asking

8 for such a measure further with this witness. However, I realised last

9 evening that that was a mistake because I have a series of photographs

10 that I would like to show this witness, and one photograph contains a

11 relative of the witness which would make the identity of the witness

12 fairly easy, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Let us go into private

14 session, please.

15 [Private session]

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 5702

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13 page 5702 redacted private session

14

15

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Page 5703

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 [Open session]

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We are in public session. You

8 may continue.

9 MR. SAXON:

10 Q. Do you recall, Witness AQ, being interviewed by members of the

11 Office of the Prosecutor in March of 1999?

12 A. Yes, I do remember talking to a member of the Prosecution in March

13 1999.

14 Q. Yes. At that time, do you recall being asked if you would look at

15 a photo array?

16 A. Yes. On that occasion, I was shown a certain number of

17 photographs.

18 Q. Were the procedures for viewing the photo array explained to you

19 in a language that you understood?

20 A. Yes, the procedure was explained to me in a language I

21 understand.

22 Q. Did you understand those procedures for viewing the photo array?

23 A. Yes, I did understand. I was asked to write on the back side of

24 the photograph my name and surname if I recognised any one person on those

25 photographs.

Page 5704

1 Q. All right. We'll get to that. When you were shown that photo

2 array, was there anyone that you recognised?

3 A. Yes. On that photo array, I recognised a person; that is,

4 Milojica Kos.

5 Q. Did you sign the photo array behind the photograph of Milojica

6 Kos?

7 A. I did. I signed my name.

8 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, at this time I have copies of the photo

9 array that were shown to the witness at that time, and the report and the

10 array itself had been marked as the Prosecution's Exhibit 3/136A through

11 D, and I would ask that they be provided to the registrar and to the

12 Chamber and to the accused, to the Defence counsel, and if one copy of

13 3/136D could be provided to the witness. That's 3/136D only.

14 Can you provide only 3/136D to the witness, please.

15 Q. Witness AQ --

16 MR. SAXON: Can you close that. Can you close that, please.

17 Thank you.

18 Q. Can you take a look at the back of that sheet, please,

19 Witness AQ. Does your signature appear on the back of that photo array?

20 A. Yes. On the back of this photograph is my signature and the

21 date.

22 Q. Could you now turn that photo array over, and you'll see that the

23 photographs are numbered in order from left to right. What is the number

24 of the photograph that you recognised?

25 A. The number of the photograph that I recognised was 8.

Page 5705

1 Q. Who is depicted in that photograph?

2 A. Milojica Kos is depicted on that photograph.

3 MR. SAXON: If that exhibit could be removed now, please,

4 Mr. Usher. Thank you.

5 Q. Witness AQ, apart from this photo array procedure, have you seen

6 other photographs of Milojica Kos since you left the Omarska camp?

7 A. No. I didn't see any other photographs since I left the Omarska

8 camp except for this photograph that has just been shown to me.

9 Q. Is it possible that you may have seen Milojica Kos' image on

10 television or in the media?

11 A. Yes, it is possible that I saw him once, perhaps when a report was

12 being broadcast from here, from The Hague.

13 Q. Although eight years have passed since your confinement in the

14 Omarska camp, do you think that you could identify the person who you knew

15 as Milojica Kos today?

16 A. Yes, I think I could identify the man called Milojica Kos.

17 Q. Would you please look around the courtroom to determine if you can

18 identify the person who you refer to in your testimony as Milojica Kos.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me. What is the

20 objection, Mr. Nikolic?

21 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness has said

22 that it is possible that he saw him from The Hague. Then he could have

23 only seen him from here. In that case, the identification is quite out of

24 place.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Nikolic, the objection is

Page 5706

1 overruled.

2 Continue, Mr. Saxon, please.

3 MR. SAXON:

4 Q. Could you please look around the courtroom, Witness AQ, and

5 determine if you can identify the person who you referred to in your

6 testimony is Milojica Kos.

7 A. Yes, I can identify the person called Milojica Kos.

8 Q. Would you please point to Mr. Kos and describe what he is

9 wearing.

10 A. Mr. Kos is on my left, in the last row, to the right of the

11 policeman. I think's wearing a dark blue suit, a slightly lighter shirt,

12 black hair, and he has a kind of fringe.

13 Q. Just so that the record is clear, when you say the last row, are

14 you referring to the row that's closest to the wall, or another row?

15 A. The row closest to the wall, right next to the wall.

16 Q. And when you say to the right of the policeman, are you referring

17 to the policeman's right or to your right?

18 A. When I'm looking at him, he is -- among the three men in

19 civilians, he is on the extreme right. And as regards the policeman, he's

20 right next to the policeman, to the left.

21 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, if the record can reflect a positive

22 identification of the accused Kos.

23 Q. Is there any doubt in your mind that the person you've just

24 identified is the person you knew in the Omarska camp as Milojica Kos?

25 A. It is the same man that I knew before, and the one I see now is

Page 5707

1 one and the same Milojica Kos.

2 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, at this time I have no further questions.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Saxon.

4 You finished at a very convenient moment for the break, so I'm going to

5 ask the usher to lower the blinds and to escort the witness out, please.

6 Before rising, Mr. Keegan, I must tell you that we are very sorry

7 not to be able to provide you the time you need. In any event, it is up

8 to you to manage your case, but I think that there is a possibility, there

9 is an investigator that you wanted to call, so there's always that

10 possibility. So even if we don't finish with the examination of the

11 investigator, at least we can spend this afternoon doing that. But as I

12 said, it is up to you to organise things, but we can't not do anything.

13 It's just a suggestion on my part.

14 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour, and we'll consider the

15 possibilities. And again, we still have another witness today already

16 waiting that we haven't -- and we haven't completed cross-examination

17 here, so it may be that we need the time for the witness who's already

18 scheduled.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. We're going to have

20 a half-hour break now.

21 --- Recess taken at 11.03 a.m.

22 --- On resuming at 11.36 a.m.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated.

24 Mr. Keegan. No, Mr. Krstan Simic, I see that it's your turn and

25 that you're first, and after you, could you give us the order, please?

Page 5708

1 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Mr. Nikolic from

2 the Kos Defence will be continuing the cross-examination. The other

3 Defence teams have no questions for this witness.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you.

5 You may be seated. Witness, you're now going to be answering

6 questions put to you by the Defence, and they're going to introduce

7 themselves before they do so.

8 Please go ahead, Krstan Simic, your witness.

9 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Cross-examined by Mr. K. Simic:

11 Q. [Interpretation] Witness AQ, my name is Krstan Simic and, together

12 with Mr. Branko Lukic, I represent the Defence of Mr. Miroslav Kvocka.

13 I hope that I will not be taxing you too much. You've already

14 spoken today about the fact that at the beginning of March you gave a

15 detailed statement to the representatives of the OTP; is that correct?

16 A. Beginning of March 1999, you mean?

17 Q. Yes.

18 A. Yes, that's right.

19 Q. You testified yesterday about your arrival, and I'd like to

20 clarify certain points, if I may. Who escorted the vehicle which

21 transported you to Omarska?

22 A. The Serb soldiers, they were in the vehicle that brought me to

23 Omarska. There were three of them in the vehicle.

24 Q. During your testimony, you said that you knew quite a number of

25 people from Omarska, and in your statement you described them in detail.

Page 5709

1 When you arrived that evening, were there members of the guard in your

2 escort who you would meet in Omarska later on?

3 A. The escort that brought us, no, no guards that I saw in Omarska

4 later on were there.

5 Q. So that evening you were put up in rooms. Did the soldiers do

6 this? Did they escort you?

7 A. We were put into rooms but not by the escort who were the ones

8 that were in my bus, but other soldiers.

9 Q. So may we take it that when you arrived that first evening in

10 Omarska, the guards that you saw later on in Omarska were not there; is

11 that right?

12 A. Yes, that's right.

13 Q. Thank you. When you talked to the investigators in 1999, and you

14 did so freely, you mentioned an incident that took place with serious

15 repercussions when you arrived. What was all that about?

16 A. Well, when I arrived shooting was heard, and during that shooting

17 a lot of things happened.

18 Q. Were there any dead persons?

19 A. Yes, I heard that there were some dead persons.

20 Q. You don't know who shot?

21 A. No. I just heard that from one of the buses behind my own bus,

22 that one of the guards had taken out four or five persons and that they

23 were killed on the occasion.

24 Q. You used the term "guards." Do you mean the escort or --

25 A. Yes. They're all guards for me. I was just about to say that.

Page 5710

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13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the English

14 and French transcripts.

15

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22

23

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25

Page 5711

1 So the people that were there, whether they were guards who were there

2 afterwards or the escorts, I don't really know.

3 Q. You were quite decided a moment ago in saying that the people that

4 you saw later in Omarska were not there.

5 A. Well, yes, I didn't see them, but I also say --

6 Q. Very well. Thank you. That will do.

7 Staying there for a moment, could you tell us, after your arrival,

8 when did you first notice these guards, the guards that you knew from

9 Omarska and who were later on a part of the security system in Omarska?

10 That day, the next day?

11 A. I came on the 28th, between 2.00 and 3.00, and that was a

12 Thursday. Between Thursday and Friday, I went to have my meal, and I

13 think that some of the guards were already there, that is to say, some of

14 the guards I saw later on. I think I might have seen them then or the

15 next day. So that was 24 hours later, or 48 hours at the most, after my

16 arrival.

17 Q. Thank you. When did you get your first meal in respect to your

18 arrival?

19 A. Well, I came between the 27th and 28th, on that night. It was a

20 Thursday. And then between Thursday and Friday, late at night, 1.00 or

21 2.00, perhaps it was midnight, I don't know, but it was late at night that

22 I had something to eat. So that means 24 hours after my arrival.

23 Q. Thank you. Witness AQ, you spoke at length today about the

24 terrible destiny of Mr. Solaja, and on the occasion, you said that in

25 Omarska, he came from -- to Omarska from Keraterm. Could you tell us when

Page 5712

1 that was in relation to your own arrival or the time you were in Omarska?

2 When was that, roundabout?

3 A. It might have been six or seven days, ten days at the most. But I

4 don't think it was actually ten days.

5 Q. And he was placed into number 15; is that right?

6 A. Well, yes. The first time I saw him he was with me and then he

7 stayed there throughout.

8 Q. You mentioned his interrogations, and you said that his first

9 interrogation with the investigators, interrogators, was five to six days

10 after his arrival. The second interrogation you didn't quite mention.

11 Could you tell us when the second -- the time of the second interrogation

12 as opposed to the first? When did that take place?

13 A. Perhaps three, four, five days later. Let's say five days,

14 roughly.

15 Q. After that second interrogation, were there any visible traces of

16 beatings during his interrogation then?

17 A. Well, after the second interrogation, that is to say, when he

18 returned, there were traces of beating, yes.

19 Q. You described in detail the third investigation, but you didn't

20 tell us the time it took place. In relation to the second time, when was

21 the third interrogation?

22 A. That was about six, seven, or eight days later.

23 Q. You described his state, and you said that you asked the guards

24 for help, to help him, and that he was allowed to move to what was called

25 the sick room.

Page 5713

1 A. Yes, that's right.

2 Q. Was that the first time that in relation to Mr. Solaja or some of

3 the other detainees that somebody asked assistance? Do you remember?

4 A. Well, I remember that there was another occasion another man also

5 asked for help, and he was promised help but he never actually got any

6 help.

7 Q. Mr. Solaja, was that the first time that he was assisted?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Asked for assistance.

10 A. Yes, that was the first time.

11 Q. Thank you. Now let us clarify one point. I'm not sure I

12 understood you correctly. In your testimony, you said roughly the

13 following: that individual detainees, inmates, using their own personal

14 ties or friendships, which is something that we all know happens, asked

15 the guards to put them up in the sick room because treatment was better

16 there. They were better treated there. Is that what I understood you to

17 say?

18 A. Well, yes. Those were the rumours. Rumour had it that you were

19 better off in the sick room and that that's why, if people had somebody

20 they knew, they would ask them to transfer them to the sick room.

21 Q. During the time you spent in Omarska, did you see -- I know you

22 went out seldom, but did any doctors or nurses come to the Omarska

23 compound?

24 A. On one occasion I saw a nurse, a paramedic, at the door to

25 Room 15.

Page 5714

1 Q. What was he doing there?

2 A. He asked whether anybody needed any kind of assistance, and

3 several people asked for some tablets, and he promised to bring them the

4 tablets, but he never did.

5 Q. Did you ever learn or hear who was in charge or whose duty it was

6 to organise medical assistance in Omarska camp?

7 A. I never heard about that and I don't know.

8 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I should like to ask

9 the usher to show the witness Exhibit 3/131. It is a Prosecution exhibit

10 from yesterday.

11 Q. This morning you looked at this photograph and said that you

12 recognised the trainer suit.

13 A. Yes, I do recognise the trainer suit, sweatsuit.

14 Q. In the course of your contacts with the investigators or your

15 talks, were you shown the actual trainer suit, or did you recognise it

16 only on the basis of the photograph?

17 A. In 1999 nothing was shown me, but I have seen -- I saw this

18 trainer suit here when I came.

19 Q. You mean the photograph or the actual sweatsuit?

20 A. No, just the photograph.

21 Q. Thank you. We have finished with that exhibit.

22 Also in your testimony you mentioned a person by the name of

23 Miroslav Kvocka, and you said that, from the prisoners in Room 15, you

24 heard that he was the Deputy Commander of the camp; is that right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5715

1 Q. The individual who one of the prisoners pointed out to you as

2 Miroslav Kvocka, did you have occasion to see him in the patrols in the

3 village, in the village of Kevljani?

4 A. I don't remember having seen him on patrol there.

5 Q. Do you know an individual called Jakupovic, Sakib, from Kevljani,

6 and his brother?

7 A. Which brother? He has a number of brothers.

8 Q. No, just Jakupovic. Do you know Jakupovic, Sakib?

9 A. Yes, I do.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 A. Two of them.

12 Q. You heard about the Deputy Commander at the camp. Whose deputy?

13 A. The Deputy Commander at the camp means -- I also heard this, that

14 the commander of the camp was Zeljko Meakic, so that means that would make

15 it his deputy.

16 Q. Did you know Mr. Zeljko Meakic?

17 A. I knew Zeljko Meakic prior to the war.

18 Q. Did you see him coming on patrol in the village of Kevljani?

19 A. Yes, I would see him frequently passing through the village of

20 Kevljani.

21 Q. You never saw the individual you were told was Miroslav Kvocka on

22 patrol with Mr. Meakic in the village of Kevljani?

23 A. I don't remember seeing Mr. Miroslav Kvocka on patrol there, no.

24 Q. With Mr. Meakic, was there another policeman on patrol there?

25 A. Well, sometimes Mr. Meakic would pass by alone, sometimes he would

Page 5716

1 pass by with one man or two other men. That was the kind of thing that

2 happened.

3 Q. Did you have any contact with Mr. Meakic during the journey?

4 A. What do you mean? What journey?

5 Q. To Zagreb.

6 A. To Zagreb?

7 Q. Did you travel by train?

8 A. Well, probably we went to Prijedor together. We would probably be

9 together on the journey there, but I don't remember that we went to Zagreb

10 together.

11 Q. How often did you see Mr. Meakic in Omarska?

12 A. When I went for my meals, ten, 15 times, I don't know the exact

13 number, but on a number of occasions.

14 Q. In your statement to the Prosecution, you said, there was a short

15 sentence on page 7, "I did not see that he committed any crime," and

16 you're talking about Mr. Kvocka; is that right? Is that true?

17 A. Yes, that's right.

18 Q. Did you ever have occasion to see Mr. Kvocka order anybody to kill

19 anybody, to beat them, to abuse them, or anything of that kind?

20 A. No, I never did.

21 Q. Did you ever have occasion to see or hear Mr. Kvocka incite any of

22 the guards to kill anybody, to ill-treat them, to abuse them physically or

23 verbally, or to have been present when something of that kind was taking

24 place?

25 A. No, I never heard of that. I never heard that Mr. Kvocka had

Page 5717

1 incited anybody towards crimes of this kind, and I was not present when --

2 that is to say, I don't know that Mr. Miroslav Kvocka was ever present. I

3 didn't see that when things of this kind were going on.

4 Q. Thank you. Witness AQ, did you hear from anybody, as you heard

5 these other things, who it was who, if that did take place and when, who

6 appointed Mr. Kvocka the Deputy Commander of Omarska camp?

7 A. I never had that information. I don't know who it was.

8 Q. Witness AQ, you said that one of the guards told you, that is to

9 say, that he pointed out Mr. Kvocka to you at the end of June.

10 A. I was told that by an inmate, by a detainee.

11 Q. Yes, I apologise. I misspoke. But you said that it happened at

12 the end of June 1992, and then you went on to say that you saw Mr. Kvocka

13 four or five times.

14 Now, I should like to ask you to tell us more specifically, when

15 you learnt of the identity of Mr. Kvocka, did you see him the first time

16 then, or did you happen to see him before and only learnt his identity on

17 that occasion?

18 A. Well, I think that I had seen him prior to that and after that,

19 but on that occasion I remembered his face, and that is when I learnt his

20 actual identity.

21 Q. You described his hair. Could you do it again?

22 A. It was brown, light brown, and wavy, curly. Curly, wavy hair.

23 Q. Did he have a lot of hair, a full head of hair, as we like to

24 say?

25 A. Well, I can't tell you exactly, but there was quite a lot of hair

Page 5718

1 on his head. As far as I remember, he wasn't bald.

2 Q. So he wasn't bald, right?

3 A. As far as I remember, no, he was not.

4 Q. Thank you, Witness AQ. I have no further questions for you.

5 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Krstan

7 Simic. I should also like to thank Mr. Lukic who assisted Mr. Krstan

8 Simic very well and encouraged him to make pauses.

9 Mr. Nikolic next, please. You may begin, Mr. Nikolic. You have

10 the floor.

11 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

12 Cross-examined by Mr. Nikolic:

13 Q. Witness AQ, my name is Zarko Nikolic, an attorney from Novi Sad.

14 I have several questions for you, and let me tell you straight away that

15 the questions will be so designed that I expect you to answer with a yes

16 or no.

17 You testified yesterday that you kept notes during your stay in

18 Omarska.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You took down those notes in two small notebooks. One is an

21 address book and the other is your medical booklet.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You noted down important information and events.

24 A. Yes, those that were important for me.

25 Q. When you attended the meeting with the investigators of the

Page 5719

1 Prosecution in March 1999, you said then that you had those booklets on

2 you and that you could show them, if required.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you have them here in The Hague?

5 A. Yes.

6 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in view of this answer

7 of the witness, the Defence would request that those two booklets, the

8 address book and the health booklet, medical booklet, be tendered and

9 disclosed so that the Defence may examine them and continue the

10 cross-examination of the witness.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon, what about this

12 request?

13 MR. SAXON: The Prosecution does not object to the request, Your

14 Honour.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Mr. Saxon.

16 MR. SAXON: I'm sorry. The Prosecution does not object to the

17 request, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness, do you have those

19 notebooks on you that you could show them to the Tribunal?

20 A. Not right here, but they are in the room outside I was in.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Nikolic, we have to allow

22 the witness to leave the courtroom to go and get his notebooks. Are you

23 not having the translation?

24 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I have the English translation in my

25 headphones.

Page 5720

1 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] My mistake. I'm sorry.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Is it all right now?

3 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness AQ, are you feeling

7 comfortable in showing those notes even though they may contain personal

8 information? Are you ready to show those notes?

9 A. I was just going to say that. There are some personal notes of an

10 intimate nature, and I wouldn't like those part of the notes to be seen

11 because there are some messages for my wife and my parents and so on.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. Nikolic, we are faced

13 with this problem. There are these notebooks which contain certain

14 private intimate things. So my question is: What is your purpose? What

15 is it you want to know? You just want to see the notes or do you actually

16 want to read what is inside?

17 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I raised this question

18 in view of what the witness said in March 1999 -- I'm sorry -- 1999. At

19 the time, no mention was made of any other notes, so the Defence was not

20 aware of their existence. If I were to give the reasons, I would be

21 revealing the strategy of defence, but it is very important for us to be

22 able to cross-examine this witness in the interests of a fair trial.

23 I should like to remind you that we were informed of your ruling

24 yesterday at 13.50. From then, our time is running for the preparation of

25 the cross-examine of this witness. And as far as the Defence is aware,

Page 5721

1 there are certain important things contained in those notes for the

2 Defence. The Defence is not interested in seeing any personal notes. The

3 witness can separate those and just show us what is of interest.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, but what do you wish to

5 see? You wish to see and confirm that these notebooks exist or a

6 particular piece of information that is important for you? Because, yes,

7 I agree that we have to ensure a fair trial, I agree with that, but we

8 mustn't do so at the expense of the privacy of the witness. So I want to

9 know why and what it is you want to see. If you want to see documents, no

10 problem, but if you want to see a particular piece of information, you

11 must tell us.

12 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we're only interested

13 in notes relative to events in the Omarska camp, notes kept by this

14 witness. We're not interested in anything else.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. We'll do that. I think

16 that is a way of guaranteeing a balance.

17 We're going to ask the witness to bring those notes, and then

18 you're going to ask him: "Do you have notes on this or that?" and he's

19 going to tell you yes or no, and the witness will be the judge as to

20 whether he should answer or not because he is the person who will judge

21 whether this is of a private nature or not.

22 I'm going to ask the Witness AQ whether it is possible for someone

23 who is here in the courtroom to bring you those notes or do you yourself

24 have to go and get them?

25 A. The usher can go to that room where I was, and just underneath my

Page 5722

1 jacket is an envelope with those two notebooks in it.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Usher, have you understood?

3 Could you do that for us, please? So the usher is going to get those

4 notes.

5 So, Mr. Nikolic, what we can do is for the witness to look at

6 those notes himself, and you're going to put specific questions to the

7 witness and he's going to answer them to the extent that is possible.

8 That is to say, he will answer the questions without violating his own

9 privacy.

10 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation].

11 Q. In order to clarify things as to my questions to the witness,

12 those private matters, are they in those same notebooks after the notes on

13 Omarska or are those notes intermingled?

14 A. They are intermingled.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So you see, there are both,

16 things that he wants to say and others that he will not want to say. We

17 cannot render justice by engaging in injustice and violating somebody's

18 privacy.

19 So you have your notes, Witness AQ, now? You have them before

20 you?

21 A. Yes. Yes, I've just received them.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Nikolic, please proceed with

23 your questions.

24 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Witness AQ, when you arrived in Omarska, were you searched?

Page 5723

1 A. I wasn't searched at the very entrance to Omarska, but when they

2 captured me and took us the roundabout way to Prijedor, then they searched

3 me.

4 Q. And then they seized something from you?

5 A. Yes. They took my transistor radio, some scissors for cutting

6 nails, and I think I had a packet of Gillettes. Razors. I'm sorry.

7 Q. But they didn't take your address book and your health booklet?

8 A. No.

9 Q. You were not the only person in Omarska keeping notes?

10 A. I don't know exactly what other people kept, whether those

11 prescriptions that we wrote, whether they kept notes.

12 Q. No. My question is: Did they keep notes?

13 A. Well, if we can call the prescriptions notes, yes.

14 Q. What did you use to write those notes with?

15 A. When they searched me, they didn't take my biro that I had on me,

16 so I used a biro. Various pens, actually.

17 Q. You had a special system of taking notes which the Serbs would

18 find it hard to understand?

19 A. Yes. I tried to develop a system which it would be difficult for

20 them to understand. If they had discovered them, I don't know whether

21 they would have been able to understand or not.

22 Q. In those notes, you wrote down something about the 24th of May,

23 1992?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What did you write down?

Page 5724

1 A. As far as I remember, I put down 24 May 1992, the beginning of the

2 attack on Kevljani.

3 Q. In your diary you noted down the 1st of July, 1992?

4 A. Yes, correct. The 1st of July, 1992, a Wednesday, interrogated,

5 myself and my brother.

6 Q. In those notes, in the address book and your health booklet, you

7 described the events that were of the greatest importance for you?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Those important events concerned you?

10 A. They concerned me and my friends.

11 Q. Those important events, you noted them down as they occurred?

12 A. Shortly after that, maybe the next day.

13 Q. In any event, you took those notes in Omarska?

14 A. Yes, precisely.

15 Q. You were interrogated on July the 1st, 1992?

16 A. Correct.

17 Q. Before you were interrogated, before you were taken into the

18 interrogations room, you were beaten up by Brk?

19 A. No, I was not beaten up by Brk before being interrogated.

20 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Could I ask the usher, please, for

21 his assistance to put the witness's statement before him. Could you

22 please show it to the Prosecution.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Nikolic, could you tell us

24 the page number?

25 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

Page 5725

1 Q. Witness AQ, you have two documents in front of you, your statement

2 of 3rd, 4th, and 5th March, 1999. Can you see that?

3 A. Yes, I do.

4 Q. And you have your statement in the Serbian language and the

5 English translation. In the English version, on each page, there are your

6 initials; is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. At the end of the English version, on the 5th of March, 1999,

9 there is the certification of the witness and your signature; is that

10 correct?

11 A. Correct.

12 Q. Could you please turn to page 20, paragraph 1 of the B/C/S

13 version. Do you have the B/C/S version in front of you?

14 A. I do.

15 Q. I should like to draw your attention to the first paragraph on

16 that page.

17 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] In the English version, that is page

18 21, first complete paragraph.

19 Q. (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted). Someone was sitting at a table in the

22 corridor. He was in civilian clothes, and he asked me what I had been

23 doing during the last month prior to the outbreak of the war. I pointed

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)' Then the man questioned

Page 5726

1 me about who had which weapon and so on. I was beaten by Brk while I was

2 waiting to be taken into the room."

3 Is that correct?

4 A. It says here, it says here "beaten up," but I don't consider that

5 to be correct.

6 Q. Did I read it out correctly?

7 A. Yes, you read it out correctly.

8 Q. Is it correct?

9 A. No, it is not true.

10 Q. When you gave this statement to the investigators of the Tribunal,

11 were you telling the truth?

12 A. Yes, I was telling the truth.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Nikolic, the interpreters

15 are asking you to move the microphone closer to you because they're having

16 difficulty in hearing you. Thank you.

17 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. You testified that Drazenko Predojevic took your Adidas sports

19 shoes?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. This was on the 27th of July, 1992?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did Drazenko Predojevic beat you up?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. I should like to draw your attention to page 8 of the B/C/S

Page 5727

1 version.

2 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] For those reading the English

3 version, it is page 7 -- no, no, I'm sorry, page 9, sixth paragraph.

4 Q. "On that day Drazenko Predojevic took my and Boco's athletic

5 shoes. We were waiting outside between the workshop and the "white house"

6 when he called me over to the front of the "white house" where he was

7 sitting on a chair. He asked me my shoe size and then he sent me back.

8 After we returned from our meal, he took my Adidas shoes."

9 Is that correct?

10 A. Yes, correct.

11 Q. But you didn't mention that he beat you?

12 A. I think I did mention it. Perhaps it wasn't translated. I got a

13 couple of blows on that occasion.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Saxon.

15 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, my objection is that perhaps the Defence

16 would be able to stipulate that on page 8 of the English version in the

17 translation of the witness's notes, it clearly says, "27 July 1992,

18 Drazenko Predojevic took my sneakers and beat me up."

19 So I think it needs to be kept clear for the record, Your Honour.

20 It's there on page 7 of the English version.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No problem. Mr. Nikolic, please

22 continue. The witness is going to answer.

23 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. During your testimony, you mentioned two cases, two incidents in

25 front of the restaurant when Krle was present. Did you register those two

Page 5728

1 incidents in your notes?

2 A. I registered the 27th of July but not the first incident.

3 Q. I didn't quite understand.

4 A. So I noted the second incident under the date of the 27th of July

5 when my sneakers were taken from me, but I didn't note down in writing

6 this other thing.

7 Q. But Krle has nothing to do with the sneakers?

8 A. No, he has nothing to do with the sneakers, but I have remembered

9 that day. It has stuck in my memory.

10 Q. You had a photograph as a Prosecution exhibit, and you drew on

11 that photograph the position where the open manhole was?

12 A. Yes, approximately.

13 Q. Could you describe that manhole for us today?

14 A. It's a manhole, an opening for the water supply or the sewage

15 system. I don't know, the usual size, 50 by 50 or 60 by 60, and the lid

16 was -- had been lifted.

17 Q. Were you able to see how deep the manhole was?

18 A. In the haste while we were running, we couldn't. I tried to go

19 round it, but I didn't really have a good look to see how deep it was.

20 Q. You just said that you noted down when your sneakers were taken

21 away from you as an important event for you?

22 A. Exactly.

23 Q. The two incidents you described today in connection with Krle, you

24 didn't consider them important enough to be noted down?

25 A. I didn't note them down but I remembered that day. It stuck in my

Page 5729

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the English

14 and French transcripts.

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 5730

1 memory.

2 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Finally, can we go through these

3 notes kept by the witness, and could he tell us whether the quotations

4 from his notes are correct?

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] For you, Mr. Nikolic, the answer

6 of the witness is not sufficient? You wish to check the notes?

7 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness, are you prepared to

9 show those notes and to put them in the hands of the Defence attorney?

10 Just to leaf through them, I think.

11 A. I can show them here. He can come up to me and I'll show it to

12 him.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] That's a good suggestion.

14 Mr. Nikolic, you may approach the witness, and the witness is

15 going to show them to you, what he can and what he is willing to do.

16 A. I don't know exactly where which note is, so I'll have to look

17 through it a bit.

18 The 4th of May, Sunday; the 26th of May, Tuesday; the 27th to the

19 28th, Wednesday, Thursday; the 1st of July, Wednesday; the 24th, 24th of

20 July, Friday.

21 Q. I'm interested in the 27th, the 27th of July.

22 A. I think it's in here. Just a moment, please. "27th of July,

23 1992. Sneakers taken away."

24 Q. Is that all you have about that?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5731

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Nikolic. Are you

2 satisfied, having seen the witness' notes? Is that of assistance to you?

3 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So please proceed.

5 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] One more question.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.

7 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Would you be kind enough to read out from your address book what

9 is noted down for the 27th of July, 1992?

10 A. I just looked it up.

11 Q. No, for the Court. For the Trial Chamber.

12 A. Yes. It says the "27th of July, 1992. Sneakers taken."

13 Q. Is that all it says?

14 A. Yes, that is all.

15 Q. May I ask you once again: Is that all it says?

16 A. Yes, that is all.

17 Q. I should also like to draw your attention to page 6 of the B/C/S

18 version. In the English version it will be page 7. Would you please read

19 out what it says under the 27th of July, 1992.

20 A. It says: "27th of July, 1992. Drazenko Predojevic took my

21 sneakers and beat me up."

22 Q. Would you agree with me that, in all those notes that you took

23 down, there's no special language used?

24 A. I don't know what you mean by "special language."

25 Q. There is no coding. There is nothing to make it unintelligible.

Page 5732

1 A. But I said "sneakers taken away."

2 Q. Is that clear when you read it?

3 A. Well, I tried to conceal it among the other notes.

4 Q. But what is noted down, is that clear?

5 A. Yes, I think it is clear.

6 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I should

7 like to thank the witness especially, once again, for his cooperation in

8 showing us these two documents. Thank you.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

10 Mr. Nikolic.

11 Witness, we cannot read your language, but could you show us, the

12 Judges, your notebooks? We can't read it anyway. So with the help of the

13 usher, please.

14 A. I'll be glad to.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Witness,

16 for your cooperation, and I should like to assure you that we haven't read

17 anything because we can't understand anything you wrote down anyway.

18 So Mr. Saxon now. Do you have any re-examination?

19 MR. SAXON: Yes, I do. Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Re-examined by Mr. Saxon:

21 Q. Witness AQ, during cross-examination, you were asked about the

22 assistance provided to Miroslav Solaja, and if I understood the

23 translation correctly, you appeared to say that the day Miroslav Solaja

24 was taken to the so-called sick people's room was the first time that

25 "assistance had been requested for Miroslav Solaja."

Page 5733

1 How long had Miroslav Solaja been screaming prior to that day?

2 A. The third time when he was beaten up, Miroslav Solaja screamed

3 every day. He screamed a lot. You could hear it. You could hear it from

4 far off.

5 Q. When you would leave the room to go to the toilet, could you hear

6 Miroslav Solaja screaming?

7 A. Yes, I could hear.

8 Q. And on the day when you had the conversation with the guard named

9 Neso, did Neso ask you who was screaming?

10 A. Yes, he asked me who was screaming.

11 Q. Prior to that, while he was injured, did Miroslav Solaja receive

12 any extra food parcels?

13 A. When he was injured, I think he received a parcel of food at least

14 once, on one occasion.

15 Q. And who brought that parcel of food to Miroslav Solaja?

16 A. I think it was brought by one of the guards.

17 Q. Going to the notes that were the subject of much of your

18 cross-examination, on page 49 of the transcript, at lines 13 to 14, the

19 phrase "prescriptions that we wrote" appears. Could that be a translation

20 error and did you actually use the word "recipe" as opposed to

21 "prescriptions"?

22 A. A recipe for cooking.

23 Q. Were the majority of the notes that you took recipes for cooking?

24 A. That's right.

25 Q. Why?

Page 5734

1 A. Because we were very hungry, and we had a great craving for food.

2 Q. Where did you get these recipes from that you wrote down?

3 A. As there were a great number of us, someone would start saying

4 that he would like to eat this or that, and then somebody else would join

5 in and write that down, and others would say, "Don't talk about that.

6 Don't write all these things down because it makes us even hungrier." And

7 that's how the question of food and recipes came up, how you cooked one

8 thing, how you prepared another, and we would jot it down.

9 Q. And writing down the recipes in those books that you have with you

10 today, were you able to disguise other information that you wrote down?

11 A. I thought and hoped that I would be able to mask the information

12 in that way, and luckily I had them with me. Had they found it, whether

13 they would have uncovered this, I can't say.

14 Q. Witness AQ, was the beating of prisoners going to the restaurant

15 and coming from the restaurant at mealtime a common event at the Omarska

16 camp?

17 A. It took place usually, but not every day.

18 Q. Well --

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Nikolic, what is your

20 objection?

21 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Is this the examination-in-chief by

22 Mr. Saxon, or is it a redirect? Is this a new question? Because if it

23 is, it is part of the examination-in-chief, I would say.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We'll see, Mr. Nikolic. What is

25 the objective of your question? What are you leading up to?

Page 5735

1 MR. SAXON: The objective of my question is that Mr. Nikolic made

2 a point during his cross-examination that certain things were not written

3 down by this witness, particularly certain events when prisoners were

4 beaten on the way to mealtimes, and I'm simply asking the witness whether

5 such events were quite common in the Omarska camp as opposed to other

6 events.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, I was thinking along the

8 same lines. Objection overruled. Please continue.

9 MR. SAXON: Thank you. I believe the witness has already answered

10 the question.

11 Q. Let's talk about some of the things that you did note down,

12 Witness AQ. Do you recall noting down something about a man named Sakib

13 Pervanic, or Gale?

14 A. Yes, I did note something down between the 19th and 20th of July,

15 1992, two hours, Gale. That's what I wrote.

16 Q. What happened to this man who you knew as Gale?

17 A. Well, that evening when he was taken off, it was almost morning,

18 it was 2 a.m. in fact. A little before he was taken out, I woke up. I

19 had been sleeping, and I woke up, and I dreamt -- I was dreaming a nice

20 dream. It was an exceptionally nice dream, and I woke up and thought about

21 the dream and tried to remember it. I wanted to remember it. And then I

22 looked at my watch because I did have a watch with me, and I saw what the

23 time was. It was about five to two. And so thinking about that dream,

24 the light turned on, and Pervanic, Sakib, was called out.

25 Q. Did you ever see Pervanic, Gale, again?

Page 5736

1 A. When he was taken out that night, after that I never saw him or

2 heard of him again.

3 JUDGE RIAD: Excuse me, it's Pervanic, Gale or Sakib?

4 A. Pervanic, Sakib is his name, but several of us in the village knew

5 him by his nickname Gale, so I wrote down Gale.

6 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you.

7 A. You're welcome, Your Honour.

8 MR. SAXON:

9 Q. Did you make any notes about events that occurred on or around the

10 24th of July, 1992?

11 A. I noted the 24th, the 25th, and 26th of July, 1992.

12 Q. What did you observe about the 24th of July, 1992?

13 A. On the 24th of July, 1992, it was a Friday, I noticed a lot of

14 dead people who were on the left -- to the left-hand side of the "white

15 house."

16 Q. How could you see those dead people?

17 A. I could see them, and I did see those dead bodies.

18 Q. How could you see those dead people? From where could you view

19 the bodies?

20 A. In the room I was in, that is to say, in the shower area, there

21 were windows, and underneath the windows on that wall there was a

22 radiator, and we would climb up onto the radiator and look out of the

23 window.

24 Q. What did you note down or observe on the 25th to 26th of July,

25 1992?

Page 5737

1 A. I noted the 25th and 26th, and I put "Dido." He disappeared. A

2 man by the nickname of Dido, also my friend, disappeared on that day.

3 Q. Do you know the name, the true name of Dido?

4 A. Fikret Alisic, nicknamed Dido.

5 Q. Let's move to the 3rd of August, 1992. What observations or notes

6 did you make for that day?

7 A. I noted the 3rd of August, 1992, I and my brother were called out

8 to the third category of Trnopolje, 70 days.

9 Q. What do you mean by "70 days"?

10 A. I mean my detention.

11 Q. Who, if anyone, did you carry on that day?

12 A. I carried, that is to say, I carried out with the other detainees

13 a dead man from Room 25.

14 Q. What about the 5th of August, 1992? What note did you make about

15 the 5th of August?

16 A. Senad Sivac, the 5th of August, 1992, a Wednesday, Senad Sivac, 5

17 p.m., 17 hours.

18 Q. What happened to Senad Sivac?

19 A. Senad Sivac was killed on that day.

20 Q. How did you know that?

21 A. I saw him dead.

22 Q. Did you know Senad Sivac prior to the war or prior to your

23 detention in the Omarska camp?

24 A. (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 5738

1 Q. And going to the 6th of August -- let me step backwards for a

2 minute. How do you know that the man you knew as Senad Sivac was dead?

3 How did you know that?

4 A. Before I saw Senad Sivac dead on that day, that is to say, the 5th

5 of August, it was a Wednesday, the guards asked someone, one of the

6 detainees, whether he was -- knew how to cut hair, and if anybody knew how

7 to do that, that they would be given food to eat. And Senad Sivac

8 volunteered, and Jakupovic, Bahrija, to go and cut hair. And after some

9 time had gone by we heard a shot, and after that Bahrija came back to the

10 room, and he told us that Senad Sivac had been killed.

11 Q. How were you able to view the body of Senad Sivac?

12 A. That day, late that day, I went to have lunch late from my room,

13 and when I left our room, we saw the body of Senad Sivac lying there, and

14 also when we returned, on our way back from --

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon, I apologise for

16 interrupting. You may continue, but I should like to tell you straight

17 away that I'm going to authorise the Defence to ask additional questions

18 because you have stepped outside of the field of redirect, so the Chamber

19 is fully conscious of this.

20 You may continue, but I'm going to give the Defence a chance to

21 ask additional questions because it is true that Mr. Nikolic did open the

22 book, the books, of the witness, that's true, and we heard about the

23 dates, and the Prosecutor profited from that occasion of you having opened

24 the book. So the Defence opened the door, and the Prosecution is

25 entering, and the Chamber is of the view that the Defence has the right to

Page 5739

1 ask additional questions.

2 So the Chamber would like to get at the truth, but in order to

3 maintain the equality of arms, we're going to authorise the Defence to ask

4 additional questions once you finish, Mr. Saxon, but please go ahead now.

5 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Q. On the 6th of August, what observations -- let me go back one

7 moment, please.

8 What signs of life, if any, did the body of -- did Senad Sivac

9 show or could you see on Senad Sivac?

10 A. When I saw his body lying down out there on the grass, I did not

11 notice any signs of life.

12 Q. What did you note down about the 6th of August, 1992?

13 A. On the 6th of August, 1992, that is to say, I wrote down that

14 date, and I wrote "Trnopolje" because that's when I arrived at Trnopolje

15 from Omarska.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I have no further questions at this time.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you,

19 Mr. Saxon.

20 Would the Defence of Mr. Kvocka and Mr. Kos like to ask any

21 supplementary questions at this point?

22 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I'm going to ask

23 one or perhaps two additional questions with respect to what has just been

24 asked.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, but please don't step

Page 5740

1 outside the framework of what we have. So please go ahead, Mr. Krstan

2 Simic.

3 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I'll try not to, Your Honour

4 Further cross-examined by Mr. K. Simic:

5 Q. [Interpretation] Witness AQ, you spoke at length about your

6 conclusions. Is it true that, in those notes, you never made mention of

7 any event which took place in June 1992?

8 A. In June?

9 Q. Yes, in June in your notes.

10 A. I don't think I did, no.

11 Q. Thank you. And one more question with respect to Mr. Solaja. The

12 Prosecutor asked about assistance to him. Did Mr. Solaja, when he was

13 called out, was he beaten by the guards, or did he receive a beating only

14 from the interrogators during his interrogation?

15 A. I don't know who beat him, but I just know that when he was called

16 out and left, he would come back a beaten man or beaten up, but who beat

17 him, I don't know.

18 Q. Did he go out for interrogation?

19 A. Well, whether he went for interrogation or just to be beaten, I

20 can't say.

21 Q. Did he speak about it?

22 A. Well, the first time he said he went for interrogation; the second

23 time he said he was beaten; the third time he couldn't speak.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Krstan Simic, thank you.

Page 5741

1 Mr. Nikolic is next.

2 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has no

3 additional questions of this witness, but we should like to make a

4 request. With all due respect to what you have done and what the witness

5 has done --

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I beg your pardon, Mr. Nikolic.

7 Let's have your request after the testimony. Now the floor is open for

8 questions. Your request will come later. Is that all right? After we

9 have heard the testimony in full.

10 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, yes.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Judge Fouad Riad.

12 I apologise, Judge. I take it you have no further questions,

13 Mr. Saxon --

14 MR. SAXON: No, Your Honour, thank you.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] -- before we hear the Judge?

16 Very well, thank you. Because we went back to examination-in-chief and

17 cross-examination, so this would give you the right to redirect again, but

18 never mind. Thank you.

19 Let's hear Judge Fouad Riad now.

20 Questioned by the Court:

21 JUDGE RIAD: Good morning, Witness AQ. I can't say your name.

22 A. Good morning.

23 JUDGE RIAD: Perhaps you can give me some clarifications, if you

24 can, without going into details. You spoke about Mr. Kvocka. You said

25 that -- I mean, to describe his attitude, you said that he never would hit

Page 5742

1 anyone, but he was very close to those who were being beaten and he did

2 not stop what was being done. Is that right?

3 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Krstan Simic.

5 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with all due respect,

6 I have to say that the witness said quite decisively that Mr. Kvocka was

7 never present during any of the incidents of abuse of anyone in any way.

8 I do apologise to Judge Riad, but that was what the witness said.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Krstan Simic. I don't

10 think there is any problem there because the witness will answer that, but

11 thank you anyway.

12 Judge Riad.

13 JUDGE RIAD: You said that he was 5 metres close to you when you

14 were walking -- that's what I heard -- and perhaps he would not stop --

15 you will have to clarify this. This is my first question. Were just

16 people passing, you said they were in blood and hurt and bleeding, or were

17 they being beaten in front of him?

18 A. I only said that they were passing like that, that they were

19 bloody and black and blue, but they didn't beat us at the precise moment

20 when I would see Mr. Miroslav Kvocka.

21 JUDGE RIAD: Now, they didn't beat you, but you were beaten when

22 other what you called command deputies or guards were there. When he was

23 not there, were you beaten? In other words, was his presence -- in your

24 opinion, did it stop the guards from beating?

25 A. I don't know whether he'd stop the guards because nobody stopped

Page 5743

1 the guards in beating us.

2 JUDGE RIAD: So you didn't notice that he would give any orders

3 either to beat or not to beat, he was just there; is that right?

4 A. Quite so.

5 JUDGE RIAD: If he was just there, what makes you conclude that he

6 was important as a deputy commander? What was he deputy commander? I

7 mean, you saw him as just one of the people. What made you conclude that

8 he was a deputy commander?

9 A. Well, I got the information that he was deputy commander. I heard

10 it. Rumour had it in Room 15. The other detainees would talk about

11 that. And when he was standing there, when I saw him there, I wasn't able

12 to conclude whether he was a commander, deputy commander, guard, or

13 whatever, but I heard that he was the deputy commander. That's what

14 people said.

15 JUDGE RIAD: Now, I would like to ask a question about Mr. Kos.

16 Perhaps I understood rightly also that he would be beating, himself. The

17 guards would be lined, and he had a baton to hit with. Is that right?

18 A. That's right.

19 JUDGE RIAD: Was he beating just as one of the whole group or was

20 he in one way or other conducting the beating?

21 A. He was part of the group.

22 JUDGE RIAD: Just part of the group?

23 A. That's right.

24 JUDGE RIAD: Not beating in any special different way or ordering

25 or preventing, anything which indicates his superiority?

Page 5744

1 A. No. I only noticed him as part of the group doing the beating.

2 JUDGE RIAD: Now, you mentioned several people, and especially

3 concerning Senad Sivac. You said that you saw him dead, lying on the

4 grass. The others, like Solaja, you said you heard he was dead. Another

5 one too, I think Gale, you said they took him at night and never came

6 back. The same thing, I think, with Fikret Alisic. Now, these people,

7 why did you presume that they were dead?

8 A. Now eight years has gone by since they left, and I never ever

9 heard about any information from anybody that would allow us to hope that

10 they were alive or the possibility of their being still alive.

11 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Just as far as you are concerned, did

12 you make any attempt -- if you cared for any of them, did you make any

13 attempt to know their whereabouts and what happened to them?

14 A. I didn't have occasion to do so. I was not able to ask anybody

15 where they are, what happened to them, because I was a refugee.

16 JUDGE RIAD: The way they were taken, for instance, you mentioned

17 one of them, I think it was -- which one was taken out at night when you

18 were dreaming? They brought the light. What was the way they were taken

19 out? Could you see from the way they were taken out that something would

20 happen to them or they were taken out to be liberated?

21 A. I'm talking about Gale and Sakib. They were called out. He was

22 called out and he went out. A group of guards waited for him and said

23 that he would come back in 15 minutes' time and that nothing would happen

24 to him, but he hasn't come back and eight years have gone by since then.

25 JUDGE RIAD: Were some of the other people taken out for

Page 5745

1 liberation and you discovered after that that they were alive and they

2 were liberated?

3 A. For all the people that I wrote down who were taken out, I never

4 heard anything about them. I read in the papers that somebody was looking

5 for the people that I had met in the camp, and that confirmed me in my

6 conclusion that he was no more.

7 JUDGE RIAD: Just a last very small question concerning your

8 notes. For instance, in your notes you mentioned that the sneakers were

9 taken. You knew who took them but you did not put his name. Why did you

10 do that?

11 A. I didn't write his name down nor did I write the names of any of

12 the other guards down because I was afraid. I said a moment ago that I

13 was afraid that they could see their names if the notebook came into the

14 hands of any of the guards. But I remember the date very well, and I

15 remember the name of the man very well and the incident with the

16 sneakers.

17 JUDGE RIAD: Did any of the guards fall on your notebook and

18 discuss it with you?

19 A. No.

20 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you so much.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you Judge Fouad Riad.

22 Madam Judge Wald, please.

23 JUDGE WALD: Witness AQ, you mentioned the names or the nicknames

24 of two guards to whom you talked about Solaja, the names being Rade and

25 Panic, and you said that they said things like, "He's done so much evil to

Page 5746

1 Serbs he doesn't deserve help." That was Panic. The other guard said,

2 "That's the one who" -- or he heard that's the one who trod on the sister

3 of some doctor, et cetera. Do you know whose shift those guards were on?

4 You were aware that there were guard shifts in the prison. Do you know

5 whose shift those guards were on?

6 A. I don't know. For me, there were shifts in the room I was in,

7 Neso's, Gruban's, and Stakic's. Which they were in, I don't know.

8 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Let's talk for a minute about the sick room.

9 This sick room where you said you thought people were treated a little bit

10 better than the rest of the detainees, who went in and out of that room?

11 I mean, did guards regularly go in and out of shift room just to look at

12 it or to check on the people who went in there? But who went in and out

13 of the sick room besides the people who were actually staying there?

14 A. I don't know whether the guards entered those rooms or not.

15 Whether they visited them or not, I don't know. But I do know that the

16 people who were there, that is how the story went amongst us, that it was

17 a sick room and the conditions there were better. And when we would go

18 out for lunch, we would see people standing at the doorway of those

19 rooms. But who entered those rooms frequently, I don't know.

20 JUDGE WALD: Do you know, for instance, whether the people in the

21 sick room had to still get up and go to the restaurant for their food or

22 whether other people brought food in to them if they were in the sick

23 room? And if so, was it guards or detainees that brought them food?

24 A. The people who were not capable of going to have their meals on

25 their own, this applied to Room 15 and the sick room, because I did notice

Page 5747

1 some people going to the restaurant to eat, from the sick room, but those

2 who were not capable of walking, food was brought to them but not every

3 time. This was mostly done by the detainees. One of the detainees would

4 bring them food.

5 JUDGE WALD: And how was the hygienic needs or how was the

6 toileting needs of people in the sick room? Did somebody take care of

7 that and was that detainees or guards too? I mean, if people were too

8 weak to go to the bathroom.

9 A. I don't know that.

10 JUDGE WALD: All right. You told us that detainees thought that

11 if you knew somebody in the -- among the official leadership of the camp

12 or if you knew somebody who was important, you might be able to get into

13 the sick room and that was a better place to be. Did you ever hear or did

14 you know whose permission you had to have to get into the sick room? Was

15 it any guard or did it go up the line of leadership? There had to be

16 somebody at the top leadership to say you could go into the sick room. Do

17 you know who could order somebody into the sick room?

18 A. I don't know that, but people who were in the sick room, the

19 detainees, they probably asked the guards they knew. Now, whether

20 somebody knew the commander, his deputy, or the shift leader or an

21 ordinary guard and whether that guard then went to ask somebody else or he

22 himself decided, I don't know that.

23 JUDGE WALD: Okay. We saw pictures of your brother's house before

24 and after the war. Was your brother's house demolished or how did that

25 happen to your brother's house? Was that a shell or how was it

Page 5748

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the English

14 and French transcripts.

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 5749

1 demolished?

2 A. In some other way, because when I left my home, the shelling had

3 occurred previously and the house was not destroyed then. It was probably

4 set alight, plundered, destroyed. I don't know exactly how, but it wasn't

5 from a shell.

6 JUDGE WALD: So it was after the war part or after the shelling

7 had stopped that it was demolished, right? Is that what you just said?

8 The shells were all finished, the shelling, the active part of the war?

9 A. Yes.

10 JUDGE WALD: Okay. My last question is: There were other people,

11 I think you testified, or check me if I'm wrong, who also wrote down

12 recipes and kept some kind of notes, is that right, besides yourself?

13 A. Yes.

14 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Did you ever see the guards take away anyone

15 else's notes or demand to see them or in some way -- okay. Go ahead.

16 A. No, I never saw them looking for those notes or seizing them from

17 anyone.

18 JUDGE WALD: But I think you said that the reason you kept your

19 notations so short was because if some guard found them, you didn't want

20 the names of the guards or the names of the people to be in there. So you

21 did have the fear that they would be possibly found by the guards or

22 looked at? Is that right or is it not?

23 A. Yes, quite so.

24 JUDGE WALD: Thank you.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

Page 5750

1 Judge Wald.

2 The majority of my questions have already been put to you. I have

3 some very small ones for you, Witness AQ. To follow up on the question

4 put to you by my distinguished colleague, I should like to ask you, could

5 the guards see you writing down your notes, or did they see you?

6 A. Since I was in the shower room, I think I told you about that

7 yesterday, this would mean that the guard would have to come right up to

8 me to see me. Maybe they could see me in Room B7, but I don't know. But

9 I never heard that any of the guards confiscated those papers from any of

10 the detainees.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, but answer this: Were you

12 aware that a guard or guards saw you write your notes?

13 A. I didn't notice them seeing it.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Another question for you. Why

15 did you make those notes? Answer me if you can.

16 A. Well, shall we say for this testimony, for this Court.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Are you telling us that you

18 already knew that you were going to testify, and then you took notes?

19 A. I didn't know, but I hoped that the truth would come to be known.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. So you took your notes

21 for your future use. You didn't know that you would be called to testify

22 at the time.

23 A. Exactly so. I didn't know I would even survive all that.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I see. Another question. You

25 said that you registered in your notes important events. What was for you

Page 5751

1 an important event, and I underline the word "important"?

2 A. Well, for instance, an important event was the fact that they took

3 away two of my friends, that they killed one of my friends, that I went

4 for interrogation, that they seized my sneakers, when I arrived at the

5 camp, and that sort of thing. All the dates when these events occurred.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, but there were other

7 persons taking notes like you, were there? Yes or no.

8 A. I don't know whether other individuals took note of events

9 important for them, but I do know that a very large number of us wrote

10 down recipes. What was hidden in those recipes, I don't know.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Did you ever speak to other

12 people who were taking down notes in order to compare the events that they

13 were recording as opposed to those you were recording down?

14 A. No. I only talked to one person about some things which we were

15 recording, but the notes of other detainees were recipes.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You said that before coming here

17 you confirm that you saw Mr. Kos on television. This fact, the fact that

18 you saw him on television, did that influence in any way, and if so how,

19 your previous knowledge?

20 A. It did not affect my previous knowledge of the recognition of

21 Mr. Kos.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] That is to say, you already knew

23 him. Was it disturbed in any way? Or let me put it differently. I do

24 not wish to lead, but still, this event, seeing Kos on television, did it

25 in any way disturb your knowledge? Did it provoke doubts or uncertainty

Page 5752

1 in any way?

2 A. I think it actually confirmed. I think I only saw him once when

3 there was a report on television, and then in 1999 when I recognised the

4 photographs. This confirmed my previous knowledge, that that was

5 Mr. Milojica Kos.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Another question. You answered

7 a question by the Defence attorneys of Mr. Kos saying that he had nothing

8 to do with this incident when somebody stole your Adidas sneakers. I

9 think that is the brand name that you used. What did you mean when you

10 said he had nothing to do with that incident?

11 A. I was standing in line alongside the hangar building, waiting to

12 eat, go in for my meal, and Drazenko Predojevic was sitting on a chair in

13 front of the "white house." He called me. I was wearing a coloured

14 shirt, and he said, "You in the coloured shirt, come over." Then he asked

15 me the size of my sneakers. He said that they would fit him, and I should

16 report to him after the meal, which means that Milojica Kos was nowhere

17 around at the time.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So Milojica Kos was not present

19 at that incident?

20 A. I did not notice that Milojica Kos was present when I was talking

21 to Drazenko Predojevic.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. So we have no

23 further questions for you, Witness AQ. We wish to thank you very much for

24 coming and for your cooperation.

25 I see that Mr. Nikolic has something to say. Mr. Nikolic.

Page 5753

1 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as the notes of the

2 witness have been tendered here in the courtroom, I have opened the door,

3 as you said, and Mr. Saxon walked through that door, I should like to

4 request that these dates that were mentioned today in this courtroom, in

5 whatever way agreed on with the witness by the Prosecution, should be

6 provided to us as a document; and what I'm saying is that all the private

7 notes be left out, but only the notes that were mentioned in the witness's

8 statement and in the courtroom here. Since I have had occasion to look at

9 those notes, I think it is technically quite feasible.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Saxon.

11 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, the Prosecution has no objection to the

12 request made by Mr. Nikolic, and we will try to work with the Witness when

13 we are doing our photocopying so that intimate material are not

14 photocopied.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Nikolic, excuse me.

16 What is the purpose? Why do you need that?

17 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I said a moment ago

18 that we had less than 24 hours to prepare for this cross-examination, and

19 I would appeal to you to grant our request.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. The Prosecutor has

21 already demonstrated their willingness to cooperate with the witness, and

22 they will do so.

23 I think it is now time for a break. We have been working since --

24 that is, almost two hours, almost two hours now, so this can be considered

25 mistreatment.

Page 5754

1 I suppose that Mr. Saxon has exhibits to tender, but we can do

2 that afterwards. We don't need the witness for that, so we can do that

3 after the break.

4 So Witness, thank you very much for coming. I know that you will

5 be cooperating with the Prosecutor, and we thank you very much once again.

6 The usher is going to accompany you out.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please. Don't

9 move.

10 [The witness withdrew]

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I apologise, of course, to the

12 interpreters and the technical booth, but I think it is understandable

13 that we wanted to do this so as to avoid having to bring the witness back

14 in, and I hope I will meet with your understanding.

15 So we will have a half-hour break, as we are entitled to. Thank

16 you.

17 --- Recess taken at 1.20 p.m.

18 --- On resuming at 1.55 p.m.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.

20 I don't see Mr. Saxon here to tender documents, but I do see

21 Mr. Keegan. So we're talking about 3/131 to 136.

22 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, 3/130, I believe, Your Honour, to 136, and in

23 addition, Exhibits 3/135A and B, as well as 3/136A and B -- or excuse me,

24 B, C, and D should be confidential, under seal. Sorry, it's 3/136A, B, C,

25 and D as confidential. Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 5755

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Krstan Simic.

2 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has no

3 objection.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, then. These exhibits

5 are admitted into evidence, the exhibits mentioned and listed by the

6 Prosecutor.

7 I see now that it will be Mr. Waidyaratne.

8 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Yes, Your Honour. The Prosecution would call

9 witness Husein Ganic.

10 Your Honour, I have handed over areas of direct examination by the

11 Prosecution to the Defence and copies have been, I think, tendered to Your

12 Honour's Court.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, we have a copy.

14 [The witness entered court]

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Husein

16 Ganic. Can you hear me?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon. I can hear you.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm talking to you. I'm in

19 front of you. If you look around a little, turn your head in my

20 direction. Can you see well? Here I am.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do see you.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You're going to read the solemn

23 declaration given to you by the usher, please.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

25 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Page 5756

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please sit down.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 WITNESS: HUSEIN GANIC

4 [Witness answered through interpreter]

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Approach the table, please.

6 Make yourself comfortable, as comfortable as possible. Thank you for

7 coming. You're now going to answer questions which Mr. Waidyaratne, who

8 is standing to your right, is going to put to you, please.

9 Mr. Waidyaratne, you have the floor.

10 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Examined by Mr. Waidyaratne:

12 Q. Mr. Ganic, could you kindly state your full name to the Court,

13 please.

14 A. My name is Husein Ganic. I was born on the 6th of January, 1936

15 in Prijedor. I have a wife, Hasnija [phoen], and three children.

16 Q. What is your ethnicity?

17 A. A Bosniak.

18 Q. You said that you're married and you have three children. Could

19 you tell the details or the names and date of birth of your children,

20 please.

21 A. My oldest son, Edin, was born in 1965; my daughter Edina was born

22 in 1964; my son Elvis was born in 1971.

23 Q. Your eldest son is Edin, am I correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Thank you. What was the place of residence before 1992?

Page 5757

1 A. I lived in Prijedor, Gomjenica 328. Now it's called Banjalucka

2 Street, number 3 or, rather, Kijucka. I'm sorry.

3 Q. Did you live in your own house?

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 Q. And the family lived with you?

6 A. Yes, they did.

7 Q. What was your occupation before 1992?

8 A. Ever since 1959, I'm a private entrepreneur. I had my own

9 company, a construction company, and I also engaged in transportation.

10 Q. When you said a construction company and transportation, could you

11 give some -- what details of the equipment and the assets or what you were

12 involved in?

13 A. I had dredges, bulldozers, loaders, rollers, trucks, and the like.

14 Q. Did you employ any persons under you?

15 A. I had employed workers, and my two sons were working with me in

16 the company.

17 Q. Now, Mr. Ganic, I would take you to the 23rd of June, 1992. If I

18 say that you were arrested on the 23rd of June, 1992, is it correct?

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. Where were you when you were arrested?

21 A. I was in my house, I and my son Edin and my wife.

22 Q. What happened? Who came to your house, and who arrested you?

23 A. All neighbours came to my house. They arrested me in my own yard.

24 Q. Now, when you said that neighbours came to your house, did you

25 recognise any persons?

Page 5758

1 A. All of them, each and every one of them. I recognised Kusonic

2 Goran, a policeman and my neighbour; Sujica, another policeman. I

3 recognised Kusonic, Braco, Bogoljub. I recognised Kusonic, Mirko;

4 Stojancic, Nedzo. I recognised Radenko, Siljeg. There were a lot of

5 them. There were others, too.

6 Q. Now, these people whom you called your neighbours, do you know to

7 which ethnicity these persons belonged to?

8 A. All those neighbours were of Serb ethnicity.

9 Q. Now, after they came to your house, what did they do to you? How

10 were you taken to -- taken away?

11 A. They took me and Jane Stjepic, his van came, and me and my son

12 were put on it. My nephews, my neighbours the Karapovics, my other

13 neighbours the Hodzics, they were all Muslims.

14 Q. Now, you said your son. Could you kindly tell the Court as to

15 which son and his name, please.

16 A. I'm referring to my oldest son, Edin. He was arrested with me and

17 driven to Keraterm.

18 Q. When you reached -- now, Keraterm, are you familiar with this

19 location, the place you referred to as Keraterm?

20 A. I knew it very well. I had my own construction site there because

21 I was building there.

22 Q. What was it used for?

23 A. It was used for the manufacture of ceramic tiles.

24 Q. When you reached Keraterm, what were you ordered to do?

25 A. When I reached Keraterm, together with my neighbours the Hodzics,

Page 5759

1 the Karapovics, and my son, we reached a checkpoint held by their army,

2 the Serb army, and at the checkpoint was Banovic with his group. He said

3 when we got off the van, "Raise three fingers up, turn around, face the

4 van," and he searched all of us. He was looking for money, watches,

5 jewellery, and the rest.

6 Q. Now, you mentioned a checkpoint. Now, is this, what you referred

7 to as the checkpoint, is it the -- which was at the entrance of the

8 Keraterm ceramics factory?

9 A. Yes, correct. There were the scales there, and right next to the

10 scales was this checkpoint surrounded by sandbags and other protective

11 devices to protect this checkpoint of theirs.

12 Q. You said that you were searched, and when this search -- and that

13 they took the money and the valuables that you had. Did they take

14 anything from you?

15 A. There was some small change, and Predrag Banovic took it from my

16 pocket. How much was there I don't know exactly, but it wasn't much.

17 Q. Did he say anything to you or do anything to you at that instance?

18 A. Yes. He swore at me. He cursed my balija and Muslim mother,

19 saying I was a private businessman for so many years, and how come I had

20 no more money on me.

21 Q. Did he hit you?

22 A. Hit me? With his boots in my legs. He made me trip over, and I

23 fell.

24 Q. You also said that the Banovic and his group was there. Did you

25 recognise any other persons at that place?

Page 5760

1 A. I recognised Kajaz, Zacko. He was a little further off. He was

2 my next-door neighbour who worked in the restaurant at my house, but his

3 conduct was fair.

4 Q. Did you observe as to what happened to the other persons who came

5 with you?

6 A. Yes, I did. I noticed that all the people were searched and were

7 ill-treated in the same way that I was ill-treated. Then we were sent to

8 a room, to Room 1 and Room 2.

9 Q. Now, to which room did you go to?

10 A. I and my son went to Room 1. When I went inside, I saw that there

11 was no room anywhere. Then I went back and told my son, "You stay there,

12 and I'm going into Room 2," and that's how it was.

13 Q. When you went to Room 2, what did you observe?

14 A. I found all my friends there. I knew practically all of them, all

15 the people there, and I asked them what they thought would happen to us,

16 and they kept quiet.

17 Q. You said all your friends. Do you know to which ethnicity or

18 which ethnicities that they belonged to?

19 A. All those friends of mine were mostly Muslim but there were some

20 Croats among them as well.

21 Q. Were you able to go out of that room during that day?

22 A. Yes. You could go out to the toilet. You could go to have a

23 drink of water and to breakfast or lunch. I don't know what it was,

24 actually.

25 Q. Did you go out of that room and meet anybody when you went out?

Page 5761

1 A. When I went out, went to the toilet, I met Mr. Zigic. He asked me

2 what was I doing there, and I said I didn't know. And I asked him to go

3 and bring me some food from home and some blankets, and he said he would

4 because we knew each other from before.

5 Q. Now, this Mr. Zigic that you mention, did you know his full name?

6 A. Zigic Zoran. Zoka.

7 Q. You said that you knew him before. What was he? Did you know as

8 to what employment he was engaged in?

9 A. First of all, he was a taxi driver. That was his job when I first

10 met him.

11 Q. Did you have occasion to meet him and talk to him prior to this

12 meeting before the camp?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Where and when?

15 A. Well, the first time I met him was by the Emino cafe in Tukovi

16 where he was introduced to me by a colleague of his who did the same job

17 as him, Emir Mulalic, and he said that that was Zoran Zigic.

18 Q. How would you describe this Zoran Zigic, Mr. Zoran Zigic, before

19 you saw him in the camp, that is, prior to the meeting in the camp?

20 A. I know him as -- that is to say, he was not very tall, dark. He

21 had a dark complexion. He was bony, perhaps weighing 60 or 70 kilos.

22 That's how I knew him. And I haven't seen him since the camp.

23 Q. When you saw him in the camp that time and when you spoke to him,

24 how was he dressed?

25 A. He had on a camouflage uniform, the kind of army uniform that they

Page 5762

1 wear, green coloured, greenish.

2 Q. Was he armed? Did he carry anything with him?

3 A. Yes, he was. When he came into my room, he had an automatic

4 weapon pointed at me.

5 Q. Now, I'm talking about the incident when you saw him and made a

6 request to bring the blankets. At that time, was he armed?

7 A. I don't remember whether he had any weapons or not when he asked

8 me what I was doing there.

9 Q. Thank you. Now, did you see Mr. Zoran Zigic again on the 29th of

10 June, 1992, when you were in the room?

11 A. On the 29th of June, I saw Zoran Zigic in Room 2 where I was

12 lying. He came in through the door and all the inmates went to one

13 corner, and I was left there and Pehlic Abid. We were the oldest ones

14 left there. All the others huddled up in the corner. And he said two or

15 three times, "Let Huse Ganic come out." And I said, "Have you gone mad?

16 What's the matter with you?"

17 Q. What did he do then, or did he say anything to you?

18 A. I got up. I had one shoe on, one shoe off, just on the tip of my

19 foot. When I got up and went up to him, he hit me, and five of my teeth

20 went flying and my upper jaw was broken. They had to take me out. I was

21 unconscious. Who took me out and put me up against the wall, I don't

22 remember.

23 Q. Now, Mr. Ganic, after Mr. Zoran Zigic did that to you, were you

24 taken out of the room?

25 A. Yes, I was. They put me up against a wall on the left-hand side

Page 5763

1 of Keraterm, and he asked me for 100.000 Deutschemarks and a pot of gold

2 not to kill me and my son.

3 Q. Now, before I go further, you said Mr. Zoran Zigic hit you. With

4 what did he hit you?

5 A. I don't know what with but it was a heavy object. Whether it was

6 wood or rubber, I can't say because it all happened so fast and it was

7 night-time as well.

8 Q. Mr. Ganic, you said in your answer to a question of mine, "They

9 put me up against a wall on the left side of Keraterm, and he asked me for

10 100.000 Deutschemarks and a pot of gold and not to kill me and my son."

11 Now, were you taken from your room to any other place before they asked

12 you this?

13 A. Yes. When he took me out and put me up against the wall -- I

14 don't know who actually took me behind Keraterm. There used to be some

15 earth there for production purposes, for the production of the ceramic

16 tiles, and that's where they took me, and they continued to beat me.

17 Q. You said that they took you. Did you pass any other rooms or

18 locations before you were taken to this place where you were beaten?

19 A. I passed by Rooms 3 and 4. There was no other way. That's the

20 way they took me down to Keraterm.

21 Q. Thank you. Now, Mr. Ganic, you said that they asked for -- "He

22 asked me for 100.000 Deutschemarks and a pot of gold," and that he would

23 not kill you and your son. Do you know as to who said that or who asked

24 you that?

25 A. Mr. Zoran Zigic said that.

Page 5764

1 Q. And when he said that, what did you say?

2 A. I said that I didn't have it. Now, how he knew that I -- why he

3 thought that I had it, I don't know. Probably that was conveyed to him by

4 his colleague Boro Topic.

5 Q. Now, Mr. Ganic, you said that Mr. Zigic asked you for money. Who

6 were the -- after he asked you for money, what did he do?

7 A. After he asked me for money, they threw me down and beat me there

8 in that -- in the premises where the earth for the manufacturing of tiles

9 was stored.

10 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Your Honour, the witness has informed me that he

11 is unable to mention all names of the people who beat him due to certain

12 secretive reasons and due to his -- due to -- for certain safety measures.

13 Therefore I would request, Your Honour, to go into private session.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, let's move into private

15 session.

16 MR. WAIDYARATNE: This would be purely for the details of the

17 perpetrators.

18 [Private session]

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 5765

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13 page 5765 redacted private session

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Page 5766

1 [Open session]

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Not yet, just one moment. Yes,

3 we are now. You may continue.

4 MR. WAIDYARATNE:

5 Q. Where were you beaten?

6 A. I was beaten all over. I had a sort of fur jacket on, and it

7 protected me quite a bit because it had a lot of air in it. It was rather

8 thick so that, when I was beaten, I wasn't beaten to death.

9 And Zoran Zigic ordered me to strip, and when he felt my head, he

10 saw that I wasn't dead, and he said -- well, he cursed my balija mother

11 and said, "He's not dead," and then they took my clothes off. All my

12 clothes stayed there in the spot where they beat me.

13 Q. Did they beat you after you were stripped?

14 A. When they took my clothes off, they started kicking me, and that

15 is, they started beating me on the legs. And then Zoran Zigic ordered

16 them not to hit me on the head because I was already bleeding through my

17 ears and nose, and they said, "Don't hit him anymore, he's finished."

18 Q. Did Zoran Zigic give an order or say anything at this stage?

19 A. Yes. At that moment two men were holding me, and they crossed my

20 legs over, one across the other, and he would say -- in the Muslim

21 fashion, and they ordered my son Edin to be brought there where I was.

22 MR. WAIDYARATNE: If it's appropriate situation to adjourn, Your

23 Honour.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, I think that this is a good

25 moment to adjourn.

Page 5767

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Page 5768

1 The registrar will tell the workmen that we can hear working, that

2 they have all the time in the world to do their work, but not during the

3 hearings.

4 So yes, we will break now, and the workman who is making all that

5 noise can carry on with his work, but we're going to adjourn, and we meet

6 again here in this courtroom at 3.30.

7 I'm going to ask the usher to escort the witness out of the

8 courtroom.

9 A. Thank you.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I see on the transcript that we

11 have underlined what I said, but while that's true, but I didn't say that

12 he had all the time in the world to do his work. Well, it's true, but not

13 during sessions. He can have all the time in the world, but not during

14 the sessions, so can we pay attention to that.

15 We'll reconvene in an hour's time.

16 --- Recess taken at 2.32 p.m.

17

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Page 5769

1 --- On resuming at 3.35 p.m.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.

3 I hope that we all have had a good lunch. Did you have a good

4 lunch, Mr. Ganic?

5 A. Thank you. I feel fine, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Let's see if

7 Mr. Waidyaratne feels in fine fettle. You have the floor,

8 Mr. Waidyaratne.

9 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. Mr. Ganic, before we took the adjournment, you said, in your

11 answer to my question, "They ordered my son Edin brought to where I was."

12 Now, who do you say as to whom you meant by the word "they"?

13 A. I meant Mr. Zigic, Duca Knezevic. I was thinking of Zoran, Goran

14 Lajic, and Banovic.

15 Q. Did you see your son thereafter at that place?

16 A. Yes. My son came. He was near me, a few metres away from me.

17 Who brought him, I didn't see, but I did see the same group of men who

18 beat me with him, and they began with him. First of all, one of them

19 shouted, "You'll never be able to drive a motorcycle again." My son had a

20 motorcycle, big ones. He liked driving motorcycles. And he hit him on

21 the leg and fractured his kneecap, and you can see the injury done to his

22 kneecap. He had to undergo an operation, and (redacted) treated his

23 leg. He's an invalid, but well.

24 Q. Mr. Ganic, you said that your son was beaten on the leg. Did you

25 hear anyone saying anything other than that what you mentioned before?

Page 5770

1 Did anybody ask him for anything?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What was that?

4 A. They repeated what they had said earlier, that they -- they asked

5 for 100.000 marks and gold and that he should go home with them.

6 Q. What did your son say or do at this stage?

7 A. At that moment, my son said that he had no money nor did he have

8 gold, and that he wouldn't go.

9 Q. What did they do to you when they were beating Edin?

10 A. I sat in front of Edin. Two men held me on each side. I don't

11 know who they were. I was sitting cross-legged, watching them beat my

12 son.

13 Q. Were you taken away from that place afterwards?

14 A. Yes. They took me away. I don't know who, but they took me near

15 to my own premises; that is to say, there was a barrel of water there, and

16 they took me by the legs and turned me head down into the water and washed

17 me there in that barrel of water.

18 Q. Were you, thereafter, sent to the room?

19 A. Yes. After that, they sent me to the room. I was in front of the

20 room and Alija Panic, a detainee, was standing at the doorway because

21 there was no space for him to lie down. He took me in and took me to my

22 spot, the place where I used to be, and put me down there. And until the

23 next day, 10.00 the next day, I didn't know where I was. I was half

24 semiconscious. My friends and colleagues threw water, splashed water over

25 me, and I came to, regained consciousness, and asked them where my son

Page 5771

1 was.

2 Q. Mr. Ganic, you mentioned another detainee. Is the name of the

3 detainee Avdija Bahonjic?

4 A. I know that Avdija Bahonjic was there.

5 Q. Is he the one that took you and gave you the place in the room?

6 A. I think it was Avdija Bahonjic, but I can't quite remember. I

7 can't quite remember that name, what -- you know, a lot of time has gone

8 by since then.

9 Q. Mr. Ganic, after you suffered and underwent this beating, were

10 you, after a few days, sent to the Prijedor hospital?

11 A. Yes. Three days later, I was visited by a colleague of mine,

12 Mehor Curic, while I was lying, and he said that outside there was a group

13 of people who had been beaten and why shouldn't I go outside so that the

14 doctors could see me and perhaps they'd take me to hospital as well.

15 Q. Mr. Ganic, how were you sent to the hospital? Was it in a vehicle

16 or an ambulance?

17 A. It was my neighbour Goran Gavranovic. He worked at the first

18 aid -- outpatients' department of the hospital, and he asked -- in the

19 emergency ward, and he asked Dr. Barundzija and his assistant Meso to take

20 me in the ambulance, to put me in an ambulance and take me to hospital.

21 Q. Did you see your son Edin when you were inside the ambulance?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Was your son also taken to the hospital the same day?

24 A. My son, on that same day, came there after me. I don't know what

25 vehicle took him there.

Page 5772

1 Q. Did you see your son in the hospital?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And what injuries did you observe when you saw him there?

4 A. I noticed on his leg there were injuries. His right leg -- his

5 right kneecap had been dislocated, and we asked Dr. Hasim Resic, who was

6 in the hospital at the time, he was a surgeon there, to help us, to

7 operate on his leg.

8 Q. Who were the others who were taken with you in the ambulance to

9 the hospital?

10 A. The others were the three Alisic brothers. One of them was

11 Fehim Alisic, Armin -- and the second was Armin, and I can't remember the

12 name of the third. There were two other Alisics who were beaten up with

13 us, Suljo and Muharem. Drago was also there, the taxi driver, Mr. Zigic's

14 colleague. They worked together. I can't remember the names of the

15 others now.

16 Q. Mr. Ganic, were you treated while you were in the hospital?

17 A. We were not treated in hospital. They allegedly said they had no

18 anaesthesia. There was no electricity, either, and the conditions were

19 inconceivable. Dr. Stojnic came, we were very good friends, and he said,

20 "Huso, I'm not allowed -- I can't go up to you because if I do, they'll

21 set fire to my house and destroy everything."

22 Q. Mr. Ganic, when you were in the hospital, were you questioned by

23 any military officers?

24 A. Yes. First of all Sipka, Jovo, came; second, the president of the

25 municipal community of Orlovci came. They came to visit me and said,

Page 5773

1 "What's happened to you, Ganic?" And I said, "Nothing." "Who beat you?"

2 I said I didn't know, I didn't dare say. They said, "You needn't be

3 afraid. You won't be ill-treated or abused today or beaten today, but two

4 officers will come by at such and such a time to question you, and they'll

5 come tomorrow at a certain time."

6 I looked at them -- but actually that's what happened. Two

7 officers, high-ranking officers did turn up the following day, and they

8 wheeled me off in a wheelchair into another room. Edin stayed behind and

9 an Albanian stayed behind in the room where I had spent some time.

10 And these officers questioned me. They asked me what happened,

11 who had beaten me, and I said that I didn't dare say because they'd kill

12 me. And they said, "Don't worry, Ganic, nobody must harm you from this

13 day on. Just tell us." And I started recounting what had happened to me

14 and who had beaten me and why they, why they had beaten an honest man like

15 me.

16 And they listened to me for about an hour and a half or two, and

17 then they said that I had to leave the hospital at such and such a time

18 and that I was to go back to Keraterm.

19 Q. Were you taken back or returned to Keraterm?

20 A. Yes, they took me back to Keraterm. They took the seven of us

21 back in a van, in a two-tonne truck, and we were all beaten. And they

22 took us to the brick factory, and they drove us around for 20 minutes to

23 the brickyard, and then the truck went in reverse, and we tumbled over

24 each other. He went round and round, and then he took us to the Keraterm

25 compound.

Page 5774

1 Q. So is it correct if I say that you were taken back to Keraterm

2 around about -- after about ten days?

3 A. That's right.

4 Q. How long did you stay in Keraterm after you returned?

5 A. After I returned, I stayed for about -- I can't tell you exactly,

6 but two and a half to three days, roughly, in Keraterm, because I hadn't

7 been interrogated by the inspectors, those inspectors of theirs, the

8 inspectors of the camp. So then I went for interrogation.

9 Q. Mr. Ganic, you were interrogated after your return. Where were

10 you taken to be interrogated?

11 A. They took us to the upper floor, where the offices were, the

12 offices of Keraterm up there, and I was questioned by Topic and Radenko

13 the inspector, formally of the municipality of Prijedor. They

14 interrogated me whether I was in the SDA party, whether I had helped

15 Slavko Ecimovic in arms and money, and I said that I had nothing to do

16 with either Slavko or the SDA party or weapons of any kind.

17 Q. Mr. Ganic, did they ask you about the SDA politicians?

18 A. Yes, they did. They asked me about Miza Mujazic, the president of

19 the SDA party. He was a doctor. I did not know the man at all. They

20 asked me about Slavko Ecimovic, too. He was the leader -- he led an

21 uprising of some kind, but I didn't know about Slavko or the president of

22 the SDA party, either.

23 Q. Mr. Ganic, after this interrogation, were you transferred from

24 Keraterm to Omarska?

25 A. Yes. There were -- there was a busload of us, not -- the bus

Page 5775

1 wasn't full. They first gave us some contracts to sign saying that my

2 property was to pass to him, that I had to sign a contract to that effect,

3 that I would never return to Prijedor or live there at all, and that I was

4 to sign that contract, that agreement, with respect to my property.

5 Q. Mr. Ganic, you said, "The property assigned to him." Whom do

6 you -- who was this "him"?

7 A. That soldier. I knew him. He worked in the AutoTransport firm,

8 Ruzic, Drago, was his name. He brought me a piece of paper to sign, and

9 he went home to make an inventory of everything I had, all my vehicles,

10 all my household property, and that then he would come back and I would

11 sign it to say that he would be the proprietor of my property from that

12 moment on.

13 Q. Did you sign any document?

14 A. No, no. In the meantime --

15 Q. Now, is it correct if I say that you were transferred to Omarska

16 on the 13th of July, 1992?

17 A. That's correct, yes. They transferred me and Kapetanovic, Meho,

18 and Cepic, Vehbija, and Dracic, Maho, and the hodza of the religious

19 community of Prijedor, and there were more of us. There was a whole

20 busload of us, in fact.

21 Q. When you reached Omarska, what did they order you to do?

22 A. When we arrived in Omarska, the bus stopped in front of the "white

23 house." We got off, and they told us to lift three fingers up against

24 the wall, to turn our heads towards the wall, and to stay there, standing

25 like that.

Page 5776

1 Q. Did they search you all?

2 A. Yes, they searched us. I didn't see them take anything from

3 anybody, but they searched us all. And some of them were taken off to be

4 interrogated that day straight away, but several of us stayed who were not

5 interrogated, and all of us together went into the "white house," into the

6 second room on the left-hand side of the "white house." We spent the

7 night there, and Dr. Begic and Dr. Pasic and Dr. Kusuran came by, and some

8 of the others, the other detainees.

9 Q. Did you recognise any other persons in that room?

10 A. There was, of the people I knew there, Maho Dracic, there was

11 Vehbija Cepic, there was Abid Pehlic. I can't remember all of them.

12 Q. Were you taken for interrogation while you were in Omarska?

13 A. Yes. The next day, I was taken for interrogation to the upper

14 floor above the restaurant where I was called by a soldier. When I got

15 there, I saw an inspector Radakovic Drago. I knew him. He took me into a

16 room and he said, "Do you know me? You know me?" And I said, "Yes, I

17 do. I know you."

18 Q. Did he question you while you were in the room?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What did he question you about?

21 A. Drago Radakovic questioned me in the same way. He asked me the

22 same things, whether I was in the SDA party, whether I had helped Slavko

23 Acimovic, whether I had taken part in the attack on Prijedor, where my

24 sons were, and other things like that, about weapons, whether I supplied

25 weapons for anybody.

Page 5777

1 Q. Did you have any weapons with you?

2 A. I did not have any weapons with me nor did I ever have any

3 dealings with weapons nor was I interested in weapons. I just liked to

4 work, to do my work.

5 Q. When you were in the Omarska camp, were you able to move around?

6 A. When they interrogated me and returned me to the "white house," I

7 came across several young men and some girls, and they were all in plaster

8 casts, their arms, legs, heads. They were all in plaster casts. And I

9 asked about my son Elvis, my youngest son, whether they knew where he was,

10 and they said that they did. And they said, "Don't worry. He's there."

11 Q. Mr. Ganic, were you able to move around when you were in the

12 Omarska camp?

13 A. I was taken out to the pista several times, the pista of Omarska

14 camp, from the room.

15 Q. Who helped you to get about?

16 A. I was helped by my son Elvis and his colleagues. They helped me

17 to take me out onto the pista because we had to go out, all of us, and we

18 lay there. And when the order came, we would be -- we would have to go

19 inside, and then we would lie down there.

20 Q. Mr. Ganic, what was your health? Were you in a good condition or

21 was your health good? Were you able to move around?

22 A. No, I wasn't but for the help of my son and his friends, his

23 colleagues. They took me out to lunch and to breakfast. And my health

24 was very poor.

25 Q. You said that while you were in the "white house," you saw some

Page 5778

1 girls and young men with plaster casts on their arms and legs and heads.

2 What did you mean? Were they injured?

3 A. They had been beaten up, all of them together. That's what they

4 told me while I was there, while me and Abid Pehlic and Cepic Vehbija were

5 there, while we lay there in the room together.

6 Q. Did you recognise any of these persons?

7 A. Yes, I did. Nero [phoen] -- Mejra, or something like that.

8 Q. Is it Nero?

9 A. Mejra. Mejra. Mejra. Mejra or Nejra [phoen], that was her

10 name. And Adila or Fadila. A name like that. I don't remember exactly.

11 A lot of time has gone by since then. But they've been found in the grave

12 site up there, those girls.

13 Q. Mr. Ganic, when did you -- when were you released from Omarska?

14 A. I think it was on the 6th or the 14th. It was a long time ago.

15 Eight years has gone by and I'm an old man. I forget things like that.

16 But I was in Omarska for a month.

17 Q. If I say that you were released from Omarska on the 14th of

18 August, 1992, and were sent to Manjaca, is that correct?

19 A. Well, yes, I think it was thereabouts at that time. It was either

20 the 6th or the 14th. I can't quite remember.

21 Q. What physical or psychological setbacks did you suffer due to your

22 detention and the beatings that you underwent in Keraterm?

23 A. The consequences were terrible. I was transferred to Manjaca from

24 Omarska, and I had spent all my time lying on the concrete floor there,

25 together with my friends and colleagues. So my condition was indeed very

Page 5779

1 bad.

2 Q. What property or assets did you lose due to your detention and due

3 to the conflict that took place in 1992?

4 A. I lost everything that I had earned, everything that I had

5 acquired in the 60 years of my life. Everything was seized from me, all

6 the equipment, machinery that I had, the construction machines,

7 bulldozers, various tools and other equipment that I used in my work,

8 dredgers, rollers; everything. Everything was taken away from me except

9 for the house that remained whole.

10 Q. Now, Mr. Ganic, in your -- when you testified, you mentioned about

11 a person by the name of Zoran Zigic. Eight years have passed, but if you

12 see him again, will you be able to recognise him?

13 A. Well, it is difficult to say, but I guess I would be able. Yes.

14 Q. Please look around the courtroom and see whether you could

15 identify this person by the name of Zoran Zigic.

16 A. I think that Zoran Zigic is the one over there, the one wearing

17 headphones, sitting in the middle, next to this gentleman in the front

18 row.

19 Q. Do you need to wear your spectacles or glasses to say as to what

20 colour of the suit that he's wearing?

21 A. He's wearing a tie and a grey suit. His hair is dark. That one

22 over there, I think. That's him. Except that he's changed a lot. He's

23 gained weight.

24 Q. You said he's in the front row. Now, there are two persons in

25 suits and ties.

Page 5780

1 A. He's sitting in the middle. Yes. Yes, there are two persons.

2 One of them -- the gentleman is wearing a blue shirt. The other one has a

3 suit that is greenish in colour, and he is in the middle with a shirt,

4 with a black shirt and a grey suit.

5 Q. Is Mr. Zigic clean-shaven?

6 A. Yes. Yes. As far as I can see, yes, he is. No moustache.

7 MR. WAIDYARATNE: May it be recorded that the witness has

8 identified Mr. Zoran Zigic positively, Your Honour. Thank you.

9 That concludes my examination-in-chief. Thank you.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Waidyaratne.

11 Mr. Simic, Krstan Simic, the cross-examination.

12 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will have a few

13 questions for the witness, and after me, Mr. Stojanovic will cross-examine

14 the witness, the counsel for Mr. Zigic.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you. You may

16 come to the microphone. I don't see Mr. Lukic at your side. Please do

17 not forget to pause.

18 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I don't think it will be necessary,

19 Your Honour.

20 Cross-examined by Mr. K. Simic:

21 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Ganic.

22 A. Good afternoon.

23 Q. My name is Krstan Simic, and I'm representing Mr. Kvocka in this

24 case. I will have three or four very brief questions for you.

25 During your testimony, you mentioned Dr. Stojnic. You said he was

Page 5781

1 a friend of yours and that you saw him in the health centre. You mean at

2 the hospital?

3 A. Yes, at the hospital.

4 Q. When you were brought there for examination. Is that true?

5 A. Yes, it is.

6 Q. You also spoke about his words addressed to you. He said

7 something to the effect, "Husein, I must not come up to you. My house

8 will be burnt down," or something to that effect. Is that correct?

9 A. Yes, it is. Even today I often pass by his house.

10 Q. Why was it so that Mr. Stojnic didn't dare to come up to you?

11 A. He was not the only one. There was another doctor, an eye doctor,

12 whose name was Balaban, and then another one whose name I don't remember.

13 We were all very good friends, but none of them dare approach us, the

14 detainees who had been brought to the Prijedor hospital.

15 Q. Did that have something to do with your ethnic background? Was he

16 afraid because you were a Muslim?

17 A. Most probably so. They had probably been threatened. They

18 probably told them that they should not come up to us Muslims and that

19 they should not treat us.

20 Q. Mr. Ganic, I myself come from that area, and I know very well

21 about the madness of those times. I should like to know, what was the

22 relationship -- what was the relation or, rather, the attitude of the

23 people of Serbian ethnic background who would help Muslims? How was that

24 looked upon?

25 A. You see, while I was in hospital, at that time I had hundreds of

Page 5782

1 friends. There were not many people in Prijedor who didn't know me.

2 Mr. Zigic knows that very well. There were very few people whom I didn't

3 socialise with. I was born amongst Serbs. I didn't make any distinction

4 on the basis of ethnic background, and I did not educate my children in

5 that spirit. And I never believed that my neighbour, my close neighbours,

6 would attack me. And it was hard for me to understand how such things

7 could have changed overnight.

8 Q. Mr. Ganic, I'm interested in the attitude towards the Serbs who

9 helped Muslims.

10 A. You mean in Prijedor?

11 Q. Yes. Yes, in Prijedor. You probably know about the situation

12 there.

13 A. Yes, I do. The attitude toward us Muslims was excellent, but --

14 Q. Mr. Ganic, I'm referring to those difficult times, after the

15 breakout of the conflict. Was it easy for a Serb to help Muslims in those

16 times? Would he be threatened? Would he be accused of doing such a

17 thing?

18 A. Yes. Yes, of course. There were Serbs with me at the camp who

19 survived and who were also beaten with us who were in the camp. Let me

20 give you an example. I remember a certain Jovo --

21 Q. You're referring to Jovo Radoci. So the people who helped Muslims

22 -- the Serbs who helped Muslims were also beaten up?

23 A. Yes, they were.

24 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Ganic. I have no further questions for

25 you.

Page 5783

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Simic, it was

2 almost excellent the way you asked your questions. Mr. Lukic is running

3 the risk of losing his job.

4 Mr. Stojanovic, your witness. Mr. Stojanovic, you have the

5 floor.

6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Thank

7 you for giving me the floor. I am almost certain that we will finish in

8 time.

9 Cross-examined by Mr. Stojanovic:

10 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Ganic, my name is Slobodan Stojanovic. I'm a

11 lawyer from Belgrade, and together with my colleague, Mr. Simo Tosic,

12 lawyer from Banja Luka, I'm representing before this Tribunal the Defence

13 of Mr. Zoran Zigic. With the permission of the Court, I should like to

14 ask you several questions.

15 A. Please do so.

16 Q. Did you give any previous statements to the Office of the

17 Prosecutor of this Tribunal?

18 A. I did give a statement, but I think it was long time ago.

19 Q. Was it a statement in written form?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did you sign that statement? Did you write it down yourself?

22 A. I don't quite remember. Perhaps you can read it out to me.

23 Q. In relation to the relevant events, did you give any statement to

24 the relevant authorities of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

25 A. Yes, I did give a statement. I remember that they once came to

Page 5784

1 see me, but I don't remember exactly when it was.

2 Q. Did you give any interviews to any newspapers (redacted)? I can

3 refer you specifically to the Sarajevo-based daily, Oslobodenje, if I'm

4 not mistaken.

5 I'm sorry, I didn't hear the answer. Do you remember the

6 interview -- or rather, did you give an interview to this newspaper?

7 A. I know that I once gave an interview concerning the issue of my

8 house, but I don't remember giving an interview about these events. Could

9 you perhaps read this article to me?

10 Q. We might do it later on.

11 You told us that you were an owner of an enterprise in 1959, of a

12 construction company, and that you owned a number of construction

13 machines?

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. Was that in the time of the socialism or communism?

16 A. Yes, it was.

17 Q. Was that equipment registered in your own name?

18 A. Some of it was registered on my name, and some of it was

19 registered in the name of my son, Edin.

20 Q. Do you own any documents about those assets?

21 A. Yes, I do.

22 Q. You told us about your arrest in your house. I should like to

23 know whether, during the time of your arrest, an automatic rifle was

24 found.

25 A. No. Well, an automatic rifle was found in -- that was found in my

Page 5785

1 house was actually a toy that I had bought for my son in Italy and which

2 was taken away by my neighbour Kljajic, and it is not true that it was a

3 piece of weapon.

4 Q. Excuse me, for which son did you buy that weapon?

5 A. For Elvis.

6 Q. When exactly was the weapon bought?

7 A. The weapon was bought long time ago because I remember I went to

8 Triest in Italy, and at the market there I found those toys, and I found

9 that particular toy, the automatic rifle. As regards the pistol, it was

10 my uncle Asim Duratovic, from Munich, that gave it to me, and it wasn't

11 actually a real pistol. The rifle wasn't a real rifle, either.

12 I asked my neighbour Kljajic recently to bring it over to me

13 because it's a souvenir from my uncle.

14 Q. Did the people who arrested you take it away?

15 A. Yes, they did. Lajic, the policeman.

16 Q. In your written statement, you stated that you had bought it in

17 Germany?

18 A. Yes. Well, I'm referring to the pistol that was actually bought

19 by my uncle in Germany.

20 Q. We heard about your sons; we know their names. Did they take part

21 in the armed attack on Prijedor in late May 1992?

22 A. No, that is not true. None of my sons took any part in the attack

23 on Prijedor. My son Edin was in the cellar of my house during the attack

24 on Prijedor; whereas Elvis had gone to his sister, my daughter, to the

25 Lukovica street, where he was finally arrested together with all other

Page 5786

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the English

14 and French transcripts.

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 5787

1 residents of that street.

2 Q. Let me read you the article from the Oslobodenje daily containing,

3 allegedly, your interview. The first sentence is the following:

4 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry, the interpreters have not been

5 provided with a copy of the article.

6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. "They forgot everything except from those 80 friends who were

8 carried by him to bring freedom to the town of Prijedor."

9 A. That is not what I said. I have never read such a thing.

10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I can -- the same article

11 contains the following, and we have the translation. I hope that we will

12 be able to help the Prosecutor.

13 I really apologise, Your Honour. I brought all of this with me

14 only yesterday, so I will need a bit more time to organise myself.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Could the interpreters please be provided with a

16 copy of the article?

17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Together with my son, you're referring to the person by the name

19 of Neron whom you found allegedly in this article, whom you found in --

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Keegan.

21 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour. I've heard the interpreters ask

22 twice now for a copy so they'd be able to do a more effective job of

23 translating. We have a copy here that we'd be able to provide.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Or perhaps the copy can be put on the ELMO,

25 please.

Page 5788

1 MR. KEEGAN: Okay.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, but I think that if

3 Mr. Stojanovic reads slowly, this will facilitate the work of the

4 interpreters.

5 JUDGE RIAD: May I ask the interpreters also to say "question,"

6 "answer" sometimes.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. You may give the

8 document to the interpreters.

9 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Keegan.

11 MR. KEEGAN: There are two articles that we provided to the

12 Defence. Which one? Which date he referring to, and the title of the

13 article?

14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] 30th of May, 1996, and the title,

15 "Pot of Gold For Son's Head."

16 MR. KEEGAN: The interpreters also suggested it could be placed on

17 the ELMO, if -- so the Judges can see it as well.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, I think it's a very good

19 idea. That's the best way to proceed.

20 Yes, let us put the document on the ELMO, and the interpreters

21 will be able to see it on the ELMO. But I should like all of us to see

22 the document on the ELMO. Yes, thank you. Yes, it is possible. Now we

23 have it on the ELMO.

24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I thought that the

25 witness might have problems with his eyesight, so I wanted to discuss the

Page 5789

1 issue orally.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. Stojanovic, we don't

3 have any problems with our eyes, so we can proceed in this manner.

4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, now, the text can be moved

5 up to the end. I should like the usher to help us. A bit further down.

6 I think that the last paragraph or the one before last is the one that

7 interests us.

8 It is not exactly the same layout as the layout of the original.

9 It would be on the following page, the last portion of the text on the

10 last page.

11 Q. So I will read it in English. [English] "My son Elvis."

12 I should like to know, Mr. Ganic, whether you told the journalists

13 of that paper that you had found a certain Neron in Omarska who had

14 participated with your son Elvis in the attack on Prijedor.

15 A. No, I didn't. I found Neron in the "white house." He had been

16 badly beaten up, together with a couple of young men and girls who were

17 there. And I asked them if they knew about Elvis, and they told me they

18 did, that Elvis was fine.

19 Q. Witness, my question is very simple. Did he participate in any

20 way in the attack on Prijedor? Is this statement correct?

21 A. No, it is not. The title may be correct, but this is not true.

22 Q. Did your sons support in any way the option that was advocated by

23 the ruling Muslim party in Bosnia?

24 A. No, they did not. My sons were in favour of the former

25 Yugoslavia. We supported our people, our country. We didn't have

Page 5790

1 anything to do with that. They were no extremists. My son Edin married a

2 Serb woman. Zoran Zigic knows that.

3 Q. Thank you very much, Witness. It was a very brief question.

4 In your written statement, did you state that the attack on

5 Prijedor was organised by Slavko Ecimovic?

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Which written statement,

7 Mr. Stojanovic? Could you please refer us? Have you finished with the

8 newspaper article?

9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I have, Your Honour.

10 Your Honours, I do apologise, but we have problems with the

11 identification of this statement. It was presented to us without any

12 references. The English translation has numerous markings "illegible,"

13 and it is indeed very difficult to read. So is the Bosnian translation.

14 The statement was handwritten. I mentioned it, and the number is

15 00880654, and it was given to the state commission for collecting data on

16 war crimes, the state commission of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

17 If the usher can perhaps assist me, I should like to show the

18 document to Mr. Ganic and have him tell us whether he recognises his

19 handwriting.

20 Q. Mr. Ganic, is this your handwriting? You can have a look at each

21 page separately.

22 A. This is not my handwriting, no. Hand represent [sic].

23 Q. Is your name at the end of the text?

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Mr. Stojanovic.

25 Sorry to interrupt you, but I think that the witness is still looking at

Page 5791

1 the document. You have asked a question. You wanted to know whether his

2 signature was at the end of the text, and we haven't yet heard his answer

3 because he hasn't come to the end of the text yet. So would you please

4 wait a little.

5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, unfortunately, I

6 have to state that the last question -- that the last page is actually the

7 one before last in this text. So I apologise for this mistake, but I have

8 given you the correct number.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, but it needs to be said.

10 Do you confirm that, Mr. Keegan? The document that is on the

11 document is not the document of the Tribunal, but -- the number is not

12 that of the Tribunal but the number of the Prosecution?

13 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour, that's correct. Those are the

14 Prosecution's recording numbers, yes.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. One has to be precise.

16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I'm

17 really sorry.

18 A. I did not write this.

19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Did you perhaps give a statement of that kind to the state

21 commission for gathering facts on war crimes of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

22 A. I don't remember.

23 Q. Look at the title page, please. Is your name there?

24 A. No. This isn't.

25 Q. So you deny that you gave a statement.

Page 5792

1 A. I say that I did not write this.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we shall tender this

4 document as an exhibit, and I'm waiting for a number, but let's do that at

5 the end.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Excuse me, which document are you talking about

7 here?

8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] It is document which has been

9 registered under -- I can repeat the Prosecution number. It is

10 document -- the document of the state commission for gathering facts on

11 war crimes of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and the number, their

12 number, is 4956/95. Reference number. I haven't got the number of pages

13 because they have been mixed up. I think it is 45 -- a 45-page document

14 in handwriting, but pages have not been numbered.

15 THE REGISTRAR: So may I have five copies of that, please. The

16 number of this document is D4/4.

17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise. We shall provide

18 five copies in due course. I'm afraid I haven't got them here now. I

19 have omitted to say that on the one but last page -- I'm not sure whether

20 I heard the answer.

21 Q. Is your signature on the one but last page?

22 A. No.

23 Q. You described Zigic as a short man, of shorter build. What do you

24 mean by that?

25 A. I mean that he's not very tall.

Page 5793

1 Q. For example, like you? Is he taller or shorter than you?

2 A. Well, he's shorter than me but he's put on weight.

3 Q. How tall are you?

4 A. I am a metre 80.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 A. But with age I seem to have shrunk.

7 Q. You told us about the beating in Keraterm, that somebody struck

8 your son in the knee, your son Edin. Do you know who did that to him?

9 Were you able to see?

10 A. No. I didn't see. There were four or five of them who were

11 looming above him. My son knows them better. He would be able to tell

12 you.

13 Q. Yes. He'll be coming here as a witness too, I assume. How far

14 away were you from your son?

15 A. Well, I can't tell you exactly. It might have been five metres.

16 Like the distance between you and me.

17 Q. Were you able to see --

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think that we're having a

19 problem. I think that we must give a task, and that is to bring them in.

20 You must make pauses between question and answer, and that is why the

21 interpreters are having difficulty following you. You're speaking the

22 same language. It's like when two people speak English. You're both

23 speaking B/C/S. So make a pause between your question and the witness'

24 answer to allow the interpreters a chance to interpret. Otherwise, we're

25 going to assign this task officially to the assistants, co-counsels.

Page 5794

1 Now, go ahead, please, bearing that in mind.

2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise, Your Honour. I

3 am a little tired myself, and I'm sure the interpreters are too, but I

4 think that I will be finished in a short while. I have one or two

5 questions more.

6 Q. You told us that you left Keraterm for the hospital in Prijedor

7 and that your son followed you there a day or two later.

8 A. No, the same day. That was on the same day.

9 Q. I don't want to refer back to the transcript, but I think you said

10 he was taken in another ambulance.

11 A. I didn't ask him that. I was put in the hall, left in the hall to

12 lie there, and as I was lying there all beaten up in the hallway, in the

13 corridor, he came soon afterwards, perhaps half an hour later or

14 20 minutes later.

15 Q. Does that mean that he came in another ambulance?

16 A. Probably. I never asked him about that.

17 Q. Did you see him in the same -- come in the same ambulance that you

18 were in?

19 A. No, I didn't see him in the same ambulance. I saw him in the

20 corridor when he came after me, when he arrived at the hospital in

21 Prijedor after me. Then we were put up together in the floor above, both

22 of us. There were two of us and an Albanian in the room.

23 Q. Can you tell us the date that you arrived at the hospital in

24 Prijedor?

25 A. I was beaten on the 29th, and I went to hospital, I think, two or

Page 5795

1 three days -- I lay there for two or three days and then we left. So it

2 was around the 1st. I think we went to hospital around the 1st. I can't

3 remember the exact day, but I spent ten days in hospital.

4 Q. Yes. Thank you. And finally, let's move to Omarska. If I

5 understood you correctly, you mentioned some girls, Adila and Mejra in the

6 "white house."

7 A. Yes, I did.

8 Q. Did you know those girls well?

9 A. No, I did not, but they told me their names, that those were their

10 names. I didn't ask them. I didn't ask them what their names were but

11 they told me their names. Adila is now in Switzerland.

12 Q. Did you see them well?

13 A. Yes, I saw them well. They were beaten up.

14 Q. How old were these girls?

15 A. I don't know. I don't know how old they were. They were young.

16 Q. Were they minors?

17 A. No, they weren't minors. I don't think they were minors.

18 Q. You said a moment ago that your son -- that your daughter-in-law

19 was a Serb, Edin's wife. What was her name?

20 A. Sanela [phoen].

21 Q. And what is that name?

22 A. It's an international name.

23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this was rather

24 strenuous for me and I'm sure it was even more strenuous for the witness.

25 Thank you, and thank the witness. Thank you, too.

Page 5796

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you,

2 Mr. Stojanovic.

3 To clarify the record, line 114, I said that I will actually

4 assign that task to the "co-counsel," but, actually, what I said was that

5 it would not involve any additional fees. So I wanted to say that just to

6 clarify the matter.

7 Mr. Waidyaratne, do you have any additional questions for the

8 witness?

9 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Just one matter, Your Honour, to clarify the

10 document which was shown by the learned Defence counsel, marked D4/4.

11 Can I have the assistance of the usher to give this document to

12 the witness.

13 Your Honour, I'll be using the court copy.

14 Re-examined by Mr. Waidyaratne:

15 Q. Witness, please turn the first page and see whether your name

16 appears on that page. Turn to the first page. And even in front, but --

17 is your name there?

18 A. No. The name is, but not my handwriting.

19 Q. Can you turn to page 2. Does your name appear there?

20 A. Ganic Husein, yes.

21 Q. Is your date of birth 6/1/1936?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Do you recall giving a statement to the Bosnia state commission

24 for gathering facts on war crimes?

25 A. No, I did not. I don't remember, that is.

Page 5797

1 Q. Is it possible that you would have given a statement to the state

2 commission?

3 A. I don't remember. I would say if I knew, but I don't remember.

4 MR. WAIDYARATNE: That's all, Your Honour. Thank you.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

6 Mr. Waidyaratne.

7 Judge Riad has the floor.

8 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you, Mr. President.

9 Questioned by the Court:

10 JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Ganic, good afternoon. Can you hear me?

11 A. I can hear you.

12 JUDGE RIAD: Good. I have just very few questions, which should

13 not tire you. I'll just go quickly through some of your testimony here.

14 You mentioned that on the 29th of June, 1992, when Mr. Zigic came

15 to you in Room 2, you said all inmates huddled up in a corner and were

16 scared. I did not understand why. Did you, after that, know from them

17 why this reaction?

18 A. Yes, I did. They all told me, all those who had come before me,

19 that Zigic would storm the room -- their room and shoot at them. I didn't

20 see that, but there were people who survived that, and they told me about

21 that. Myself and Abid Pehlic stayed, putting on our shoes. I didn't

22 succeed in putting on my shoes. He told me to get up, approach him and

23 come up to him, and then Zigic hit me on the head. It was a heavy blow,

24 and it dislodged five teeth. I lost five teeth, and he fractured my jaw.

25 JUDGE RIAD: Now, you said they told you that some survived the

Page 5798

1 shooting. Did they tell you about some who were killed by the shooting

2 when he came in the room? Did they give you any details about people who

3 were killed by this shooting?

4 A. Yes, they told me. I didn't see that happen, and I apologise, but

5 they did tell me that Zigic killed -- had killed a minor, an Albanian who

6 worked in a cake shop at the railway station and bus stop. I didn't see

7 that, but they told me about what happened to that man. I was an

8 eyewitness when he beat up another Albanian who lay in hospital with me,

9 in my room, and he hit with his baton, with his rifle butt, in the chest.

10 He hit him many times, and I marvel at the fact that he survived, but he

11 did survive, and my son saw him when he left the camp, and I can testify

12 to that.

13 JUDGE RIAD: Now, you said that Zigic asked you for 100.000

14 Deutschemarks and a pot of gold or else he would kill you. That's what he

15 said. Is that right? Did I understand you rightly?

16 A. Yes.

17 JUDGE RIAD: Now, after that, you did not give the money, and you

18 were apparently --

19 A. I didn't give the money or gold because I knew that if I went off

20 with him to dig up this where it was dug, that he would kill me -- where

21 it was buried, that he would kill me.

22 JUDGE RIAD: But when you were beaten, you said after that you

23 were beaten and he came and said, "Don't hit him anymore. He's

24 finished." Did he --

25 A. Yes.

Page 5799

1 JUDGE RIAD: Did he order the beating?

2 A. Yes. He ordered it. Because I entreated him. I said, "Zigic,

3 please don't beat me so much. What have I done to you? Why are you

4 beating me so hard?" And he cursed my balija mother and my Muslim mother,

5 and cursed me and he said, "I'll kill you. Give me the money. Give me

6 the money or I'll kill you."

7 JUDGE RIAD: But he's also the man who said, "Don't hit him

8 anymore." Did he think you were dead?

9 A. Yes. He thought, when he touched me on the head, that I was done

10 for because blood was coming out of my ears and nose and mouth, and he

11 probably thought that I was all finished. So he said, "That's enough."

12 And afterwards, two men, two of his colleagues, held me and crossed my

13 legs and told me to sit in the Muslim fashion with my legs crossed and

14 watch my son being beaten.

15 JUDGE RIAD: Now, my last question: You mentioned that there were

16 some young men and girls in plaster casts, and you said after that they

17 were found in the grave site, if I understood you rightly.

18 A. Yes. Yes, that's right. They have just been found, those two

19 girls. And (redacted), in the room they were brought to, in the --

20 towards Palanka and Bosanska Krupa, in the morgue. And those are now in

21 Sanski Most, the 10th of October place.

22 JUDGE RIAD: Do you have any idea how they were found, what was

23 their condition?

24 A. Yes, I heard about it. I do know they were discovered by two

25 Serbs, and they said where they were located. The father was dying, and

Page 5800

1 he told his son, "Son, I cannot die before I tell you where that grave

2 site is located. Please go to the MUP and tell them where it is," and the

3 son went off. That's what I heard from my colleagues working in MUP in

4 Sanski Most. And he went off and he told them where those -- they were.

5 They were in some garbage dump somewhere. That's what I heard from those

6 superiors. I didn't see it, but I hear that it was on television as well.

7 JUDGE RIAD: Did he say who killed them?

8 A. I don't know about that.

9 JUDGE RIAD: But they were killed in the camp?

10 A. No. They were taken off with two -- in two buses from Omarska

11 where I was. I was present in Omarska at the time, and they were taken

12 off allegedly for an exchange. An exchange was to take place allegedly,

13 but this did not take place. They were killed.

14 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you, Mr. Ganic.

15 A. Thank you, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Madam Judge Wald has the floor.

17 JUDGE WALD: Mr. Ganic, just two quick questions. Did your son

18 get any medical treatment for his knee or other injury, either in the

19 hospital in Prijedor or in the Omarska camp?

20 A. My son Edin stayed in the hospital after me. He stayed on for a

21 month and a half after me. Yes, he was treated. His knee was operated

22 on. I don't know how much time afterwards, but he was there for a month

23 and a half. That's what he told me.

24 I wasn't there with him, but Mr. Zigic came to see him, and he

25 took off a gold chain. He took his gold chain off and his rings in the

Page 5801

1 hospital. That happened -- that was the third or fourth time that he came

2 to slit my son's throat.

3 After that, he was released to the Trnopolje camp and then was

4 transferred in a plaster cast. The neighbours came to get him and took

5 him home. And when he came home, my younger son and him and Zigic came to

6 our house. I wasn't present. My wife was there. My son told me. He

7 took my wife and beat her up with his pistol on her head, he -- and all

8 over her chest and made her drink cognac. He made her drink cognac first,

9 and then he took a drink to see whether it was poisoned or not. I wasn't

10 there, I was in the camp, but my wife wouldn't lie to me.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness, sorry to interrupt you.

12 Mr. Stojanovic.

13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, not only have we not

14 heard about this up until now, I do not think that it is an answer to the

15 question posed by Judge Wald. It is a spontaneous -- he's telling us

16 spontaneous -- he's giving us spontaneous account, but I don't think that

17 it is in order here, although, of course, I do accept any question put by

18 the Judges, but this was much more than the question asked for. And would

19 you please limit the witness to answering the question asked.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much for your

21 help, Mr. Stojanovic. It is always welcome, but if you really believe you

22 have a reason for questioning the witness once again, you can always do

23 it. But please, do not interrupt the witness when he is answering

24 questions put to him by the Judges. You will have an opportunity to ask

25 your question later on, but please, do not interrupt us.

Page 5802

1 Madam Judge Wald, please continue.

2 JUDGE WALD: My second question, last question, is you said in the

3 "white house" you saw some young girls -- or some young women and some

4 young men who were in plaster casts. Now, do you know or were you able to

5 find out who put the plaster casts on them? I mean, who treated them?

6 Were they treated in the camp, or had they gone to the hospitals, or how

7 did they get the plaster casts on them, if you know?

8 A. I don't know. I didn't ask.

9 JUDGE WALD: Okay.

10 A. I didn't think of asking. I was afraid. I really don't know. I

11 can't say.

12 JUDGE WALD: All right, thank you.

13 A. You're welcome.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Stojanovic, do you wish to

15 ask any question in relation to your objection raised earlier on?

16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. Thank you, Your

17 Honour.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Once it has been established

19 that the witness has volunteered, I have to ask the Prosecutor if he has

20 any further questions for the witness.

21 MR. WAIDYARATNE: No, Your Honour. No, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, then. I hope the

23 matter is clear now.

24 I don't have any questions for the witness. I believe that all

25 questions have been asked of you, Mr. Ganic. However, as the Presiding

Page 5803

1 Judge of this Chamber, I have to ask you one further question. You have

2 been asked a number of questions by the parties and the Judges. Is there

3 anything that you wish to say? Is there anything that you haven't been

4 asked and you wish to say on your own?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have something to say.

6 My departure from Manjaca, on our way to Manjaca, during that

7 journey to Manjaca, I don't know how many buses there were, but I think

8 that I heard there were some 15 buses on the occasion, and Nedzad Krak

9 died on the way. He died at the hands of Haso -- in the arms of Haso. I

10 can't remember his surname. He was killed when we arrived at Manjaca, and

11 Dedo was killed, Dedo Crnalic was killed when we arrived at Manjaca.

12 When we stepped off the bus into the field, the callout started,

13 roll call, and during that roll call there were names and people -- names

14 and surnames of people who were to be discarded. They followed trucks.

15 There were some small trucks and a canvas, and some 11 people were taken

16 off. And Alisic, Jama, his nickname was Jama, he was killed then and

17 there. And another person who was killed was -- I can't remember his

18 name. I can't remember all their names. But Djuzin, he was called

19 Djuzin, he was right by me, behind me. He was called out by a policeman,

20 a retired policeman, and he said that he wouldn't remain alive, that he

21 would kill him.

22 And there were 11 of us, and they disappeared, and we know this.

23 Nobody talks about those people, where they were killed and what happened

24 to them. Afterwards they were found in Vrbas by Banja Luka, and they were

25 buried.

Page 5804

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Is that what you wanted to add,

2 Mr. Ganic?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Ganic.

5 It was a bit of a risk. I don't know whether the parties have

6 anything else to ask of the witness. I don't think so.

7 Mr. Ganic, you have completed your testimony before the

8 International Tribunal. Thank you very much for coming here and for

9 testifying. We wish you a safe journey back to your place of residence.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you, and I just

11 wanted to add, could I say hello to Zoran Zigic?

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Well, you may say it. I don't

13 see any problem in it.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And does he accept --

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You can say it from your place,

16 but you cannot approach him. I don't know whether he will accept it or

17 not, that's his problem, but you can do it.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Zoran, did I tell any lies? We

19 were once colleagues of sorts.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you. Yes, that's it.

21 Thank you. Let me ask the usher to help you out of the courtroom. Thank

22 you once again, Mr. Ganic.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too. Thank you very

24 much and good-bye.

25 [The witness withdrew]

Page 5805

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Page 5806

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Keegan, any good news

2 for us?

3 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour, two short matters. First, I think

4 we probably need to have the article referred to by Mr. Stojanovic and

5 which was placed on the ELMO marked for identification purposes for the

6 record, and we'll submit a clean copy to the registry if the Defence

7 doesn't have one.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think that the document has

9 already been marked for evidence. It's 4/4, no?

10 THE REGISTRAR: The copy of the newspaper, and the number will be

11 D5/4 only for identification.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Does the Prosecutor wish to

13 tender any documents into evidence? No?

14 MR. KEEGAN: No, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Stojanovic.

16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the two documents

17 that we have tendered, we thank the Prosecution for extending their

18 assistance, and we should like to have them tendered. It's D4/4, and

19 D5/4, those two documents.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Any objections?

21 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour. We object to both documents for

22 admission. Mr. Ganic was very clear that he had absolutely no

23 recollection of giving that statement. There were no substantive

24 questions put to him regarding the statement, so therefore I don't think

25 it meets any of the criteria that have been used by this Chamber

Page 5807

1 previously for the admission of prior statements.

2 With respect to the newspaper article, it was placed on the ELMO

3 so that the language could be read clearly, but again, the witness denied

4 making the statement. There was no foundation laid for the admission of

5 that newspaper article otherwise, and so therefore, again, we would object

6 to its admission.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Stojanovic, do you wish to

8 reply? Briefly, please.

9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. In both cases

10 they were documents which we received from the Prosecution. We do not

11 know what the Prosecution wishes to attain with these documents. Does it

12 wish to lead us astray? But the basic argument is that the document is

13 very extensive.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] This is not an appropriate time

15 to make allegations, Mr. Stojanovic. I just wanted to hear your reply to

16 the response of Mr. Keegan as regards the admission of the document into

17 evidence.

18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in one case it is a

19 document of a state, the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, that is to say, a

20 document which has been registered and has a reference number by the state

21 commission for gathering facts on war crimes, an exceptionally high

22 authority.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But Mr. Stojanovic, you're not

24 replying to the argument of Mr. Keegan. He said that the witness did not

25 recognise the document as the document that was written by him. Those

Page 5808

1 were his arguments, and you have to respond to his arguments.

2 Mr. Keegan didn't mention the document as being the document of

3 any government commission. I don't know, you have to respond to his

4 arguments.

5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it is our position

6 that this is a document of the witness that he had --

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Once again, Mr. Stojanovic --

8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] It's a question of the witness's

9 credibility.

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think that we will call it a

12 day for the time being because we need some time to discuss the issue. We

13 do not have enough time this afternoon. We will open tomorrow with our

14 ruling.

15 Mr. Keegan, yes?

16 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour, just for the witness order for

17 tomorrow, as I indicated earlier in the day. I've already advised the

18 Defence, but I thought the Chamber would also like to know. The order

19 will be -- the first Witness will be Emsud Garibovic, then Witness AV, and

20 then the witness following will be the witness Edin Ganic.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, I cannot read the

22 name on the transcript. I only have the first name, Emsud.

23 MR. KEEGAN: Garibovic, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, then. So these are

25 the witnesses that we will be hearing tomorrow.

Page 5809

1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.12 p.m., to

2 be reconvened on Wednesday, the 27th day of

3 September, 2000, at 9.30 a.m.

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