1 Thursday, 28 September 2000
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.
6 I can see that we're going to have a very animated day today.
7 Good morning to everyone, to the technical booth. I hope that everything
8 is ready today. Good morning to the interpreters, the legal assistants,
9 the registrar, the Prosecution and Defence, good morning to the accused.
10 I think we're ready to take up the testimony of Mr. Edin Ganic; is
11 that right Mr. Keegan.
12 MR. KEEGAN: That's right, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Please go
15 [The witness entered court]
16 WITNESS: Edin Ganic (resumed)
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Ganic. Can
18 you hear me?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can, thank you.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, you may be seated. We're
21 going to continue your testimony. Let me remind you that you're still
22 under oath. Have you had a good rest?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. I think that Mr. Keegan
25 has had a good rest, too, and is ready to carry on with his questions.
1 Mr. Keegan, your witness.
2 MR. KEEGAN: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Examined by Mr. Keegan: [Continued]
4 Q. Mr. Ganic, yesterday when we concluded, you had described how you
5 were called out of Room 1 by Predrag Banovic, and he indicated he was
6 taking you to Zoran Zigic, and you referred to two questions or two areas
7 that Mr. Banovic said Zoran Zigic was going to ask you about. What were
8 those two areas or two questions that you were going to be asked?
9 A. When Banovic took me out of Room 1, while we were on our way to
10 Zigic, I didn't know that. I found that out later on. He was at the end
11 of the camp, other end of the camp. He told me that there was no joking
12 around with Zigic, that he was very dangerous. And the only thing that he
13 was interested in was money and my motorcycles, my Suzuki.
14 Q. You indicated that you walked to the end of the camp, the
15 other end of the camp.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Which room was at the closest end to where you met Mr. Zigic?
18 What room did you pass?
19 A. Rooms 2, 3, and 4.
20 Q. Is that, as you're in the camp, walking away from the direction
21 of the main Banja Luka-Prijedor road?
22 A. That's right, yes.
23 Q. In the area where you eventually met Mr. Zigic, what other
24 things were in that area? What was that area used as, the area where you
25 met Mr. Zigic?
1 A. It was a container with garbage.
2 Q. Now, as you walked up to that area where the container was where
3 you would meet Mr. Zigic, what did you notice as you walked up to that
5 A. I can't quite remember now. I know that somebody was crying. I
6 know they were beating some people.
7 Q. As you walked up, could you see any other prisoners outside in the
8 area with Mr. Zigic?
9 A. When I got there, that's when I could see. When I talked to
10 Zigic, I saw to my left the Alisic brothers.
11 Q. At that time, what, if anything, could you tell about their
13 A. They were lying down on the concrete, or were sitting down,
15 Q. Could you tell anything about their physical condition at that
17 A. They were beaten up.
18 Q. What indications did you see that made you conclude that they
19 were beaten up?
20 A. The sounds, they weren't crying, but they emitted some strange
22 Q. Was there anyone in the area of the garbage container that you
23 referred to?
24 A. Yes. Apart from Zigic, there were several other people there,
1 Q. Did you recognise any of these individuals who were there with
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And who were they?
5 A. There was Duca, Vokic Zoran, Laic, and several other guards from
6 Banovic, the brothers Banovic were there. The others I didn't know.
7 Q. Did you notice whether there were any prisoners in the area of the
8 garbage container, in the area where these men were that you just named?
9 A. Later on I saw another one. He was a policeman, Petkovic.
10 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness kindly be asked to speak up,
11 please. We're having difficulty hearing.
12 MR. KEEGAN: Mr. Ganic, if you could just speak up a little bit
13 when you give your answers, please, so the interpreters can hear you?
14 A. I will, yes.
15 Q. When you arrived at the spot where Zigic was, what, if anything,
16 did he say to you?
17 A. He asked me whether I was Edin Ganic and I said yes, and then he
18 told me to sit down on the concrete floor in the Turkish fashion.
19 Q. Did you know what he meant by that, in the Turkish fashion?
20 A. I did know, but I said that I wasn't a Turk, so that I couldn't
21 sit that way.
22 Q. And did you sit down on the ground?
23 A. Of course. He said either sit like the Turks do, or I'm going to
24 show you."
25 Q. If you can, please, for the record, describe what that
1 position is that Zigic was referring to as the way Turks sit.
2 A. I had to sit down on the ground and cross my legs.
3 Q. When you saw Zigic at that time, do you recall what he was
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Can you describe it for us?
7 A. He was wearing a camouflage uniform.
8 Q. What type of camouflage was that? What was the predominant
9 colour of the camouflage?
10 A. Green.
11 Q. Did he have any type of hat or cap?
12 A. Yes, he had a red cap on with tassels behind.
13 Q. Once you sat on the ground, what, if anything, did Zigic say to
15 A. He asked for, and I have to use this term, the one he used, he
16 said he wanted a pot of gold, which my family possessed. As I said, he
17 always wanted my motorcycle and my brother's motorcycle and the truck.
18 Q. When he asked you for these things, what, if anything, did you say
19 to him?
20 A. I said that I didn't have it, and that all the money I had I
21 invested into the purchase of my motorcycle and truck, which I bought
22 three months before the war.
23 Q. What was his response when you told him that you had no money?
24 A. He said, "You're lying," and started to beat me.
25 Q. How did he beat you?
1 A. I think he had a baton in his hand, wooden or -- bit he hit me
2 with his legs, arms, baton. It was terrible. Other people came up. It
3 was pure hell, sheer hell.
4 Q. Where on your body were you being beaten, if you can recall?
5 A. From my head to my heel, there was not a single spot on my body
6 where he didn't hit me.
7 Q. During the time that Zigic was beating you, did he say anything
8 else to you?
9 A. I only know that he said -- one of them hit me on the head, I
10 think with a baton, and I fell to the ground. I wasn't able to get up,
11 and I pretended to have lost consciousness. And he said, "Careful, guys,
12 don't hit him on the head. He's sensitive."
13 Q. Did Zigic say anything to you with regard to your father and the
15 A. Not at that time, no. He didn't mention my father then. That
16 came later.
17 Q. During the time that you were being beaten, did you notice whether
18 there was anyone else who was also being beaten?
19 A. Yes. Drago Tokmadzic. He said "Careful what you're doing, Edin,
20 or you'll end up like that pig." He gave the full name and
21 surname of Drago Tokmadzic. I didn't know that name person.
22 Q. In your answer you indicated he said, "Careful what you're doing,
23 Edin, or you'll end up like that pig". Who is the "he"? Who said that to
25 A. I'm referring to Zoran Zigic all the time.
1 Q. When he said you'll end up like that pig, what -- who was the
2 pig that he was referring to?
3 A. Drago Tokmadzic.
4 Q. At that point --
5 A. A policeman.
6 Q. I apologise.
7 At that point, was Drago Tokmadzic being beaten as well?
8 A. Only when he said that, Goran Laic came up, and Zigic said,
9 "Finish that off," and he continued to beat him.
10 Q. When Zigic said "finish that off," what did you understand him to
11 mean by that?
12 A. Well, like all his other victims, to kill him.
13 Q. And when you say "kill him," are you referring to Drago
15 A. Yes, Drago Tokmadzic, yes.
16 Q. You indicated that in addition to Zigic, there were others who
17 were beating you. Were you able to determine who that was? Did you know
18 who was beating you besides Zigic?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And who were they?
21 A. Zoran Vokic, Duca, I think his surname was Knezevic, Dusan
22 Knezevic, I might have forgotten, Goran Laic, the Banovic brothers, and
23 several other guys who were in Banovic's shift. I can't remember. From
24 Cirkin Polje.
25 Q. During this time when you were being beaten, were any of these
1 individuals asking you questions or saying things to you?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And what was that?
4 A. First Goran Laic came up to me. They were all standing around in
5 a circle around me. I don't like saying this in front of the Court, but I
6 have to say it because that's what he said to me. He asked me, "You
7 fucked our Serb women and you have to be held responsible for that. You
8 have to pay for it." And then somebody else said, "Yes, he'll pay for
9 that with his head. That's certain."
10 Q. After these things were said, did the beatings continue?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. During this time, were you being asked about your motorcycles or
13 about the money?
14 A. The main topic was money and my motorbike.
15 Q. How did this beating end?
16 A. I can't say how long it lasted now. It seemed to me to last for
17 ever. I know that I lost consciousness several times, and they poured
18 water over me. In the end, Zigic said, "You know, guys, he's got money
19 and he'll probably get out of here. That's why we have to incapacitate
21 Q. After Zigic said that, what happened to you?
22 A. Duca came up, Dusan Knezevic I think his real name was. He had a
23 baseball bat, and he broke my leg with it.
24 Q. Where did Duca hit you with this baseball bat?
25 A. The knee of the right leg.
1 Q. After he hit you on the knee of your right leg, what affect
2 that did that on your leg?
3 A. I think I lost consciousness. Everything was broken.
4 Q. Were you able to use your leg, or did you have control of your leg
5 after that?
6 A. No, absolutely no. Everything snapped from that terribly strong
7 blow. It was like hell.
8 Q. After that blow was administered to your leg, Mr. Ganic, did
9 anyone say anything to you about what you'd be able to do or not do?
10 A. I apologise. I apologise for this. May I have a moment?
11 Q. Certainly.
12 A. I do apologise.
13 Q. It's all right. After you were hit on the knee, do you recall
14 anyone saying anything to you?
15 A. Yes. He said, "You'll never be able to ride your bike again."
16 Q. And when you say --
17 THE INTERPRETER: Motorbike, motorbike.
18 MR. KEEGAN:
19 Q. Thank you.
20 A. Something with my motorcycle, yes.
21 Q. What other injuries did you sustain as a result of this beating?
22 A. I had injuries to my head, but the worst injury was my lower jaw.
23 Q. What happened to your lower jar?
24 A. It was broken in several places.
25 Q. Were you taken anywhere after you were hit on the leg?
1 A. Yes. Zoran Zigic said he would take me to the room my father was
3 Q. After you were taken into this room, what, if anything, could you
5 A. It was in the building, inside. At first I couldn't see anything
6 because it was totally dark, night.
7 Q. And once your eyes became accustomed to the dark, what, if
8 anything, could you see?
9 A. To the right of me I saw my father standing. That is to say, he
10 was sitting, actually, on something. I don't know what he was sitting
12 Q. At that time were you able to note anything or tell anything about
13 your father's condition?
14 A. If you mean injuries, I couldn't. I couldn't. It was just that
15 he couldn't speak. He gave signs of wanting to say something, but he
16 couldn't actually utter it.
17 Q. Was Zigic present at this time?
18 A. Yes, he was present.
19 Q. What, if anything, did he do?
20 A. He told my father, Ganic, if you want your son to stay alive, tell
21 us where the money is."
22 Q. When he said that, what, if anything, was he doing?
23 A. He had taken out a knife and put it under the throat, his throat.
24 Q. He put the knife under whose throat?
25 A. My throat.
1 Q. What, if anything, did your father say in response to that
2 statement by Zigic?
3 A. I can't tell you exactly what he said because it was a long time
4 ago, but I know that he pleaded with him not to kill me, and he said that
5 all the money we had, we had spent. And he was thinking of the pot of
6 gold, that we had spent everything on the truck, buying the truck.
7 Q. Did you say anything to Zigic?
8 A. I can't remember now.
9 Q. Was anyone else present in that room that you were aware of?
10 A. Yes. There was Duca and Zoran Vokic.
11 Q. Were there any other prisoners in that room at that time?
12 A. At that time I wasn't able to see anything.
13 Q. Did you later learn that there had been another prisoner in that
15 A. Yes. Zoran, the taxi driver.
16 Q. That's the Zoran who was the prisoner, the Croat you referred to
18 A. Yes. Yes, that's right. I mentioned him yesterday.
19 Q. After Zigic held the knife under your throat, what, if anything,
20 happened to you that evening?
21 A. All I know is that he continued to beat me, and he always
22 threatened me by saying, "Give me your money, give me your gold, or I'll
23 cut your head off." He wanted to cut my head off with the knife. At
24 least he wanted me to think that that's what he was going to do.
25 Q. At any point were you taken to a water barrel?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And what happened?
3 A. Took me and my father to the water barrel, and he threw my father
4 into one of those barrels. I was saved from that by Zoran Vokic. He
5 didn't allow him to do that to me.
6 Q. Do you recall what Vokic did to save you?
7 A. He was my neighbour. I knew him well. All I know is that he
8 asked Zigic not to do that. He said I was a good guy, and that I didn't
9 deserve it. Something along those lines. And that's what happened,
10 they didn't duck me in the water.
11 Q. And what happened after that? Were you returned to your room?
12 A. I wasn't able to walk. I was carried by Zoran Vokic all the
14 Q. Where did Vokic take you, if you know?
15 A. He took me to Room 1.
16 Q. In Room 1, were you given any type of assistance?
17 A. No. Not from them.
18 Q. And when you say "them," who do you mean?
19 A. I mean Zoran Zigic and those who had beat me up.
20 Q. Did the prisoners who were in the room give you any assistance?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. What do you recall them doing for you?
23 A. My leg had been broken, and I couldn't put it straight, so they
24 put some wooden planks around my leg. And they tore my shirt in pieces
25 and improvised a kind of stretcher with them.
1 Q. The next day did anyone try and arrange medical assistance for
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Who was that?
5 A. Ekrem Ganic, my cousin, and Senad Custic, and another young man by
6 the name of Hari.
7 Q. What did they do, if you know?
8 A. It was Kajin's shift on duty that morning, and I was on good terms
9 with his brother. He used to work in the restaurant not far from my
11 Q. What did this Kajin's brother do, if you know?
12 A. Later on he came to me to -- where I was sleeping, and he talked
13 to his brother, and he told him that I had been badly injured.
14 Q. And Kajin's brother -- I'm sorry, this Kajin, what was his
15 position in the camp, if you know?
16 A. As far as I know, he was a shift leader.
17 Q. At some point did an ambulance arrive at the camp?
18 A. Yes, a day or two days later, I believe.
19 Q. Were there any doctors or other medical attendants with this
21 A. No.
22 Q. Were you allowed to go in the ambulance?
23 A. Yes, later on. It had been all organised by Kajin. He came to
24 see me personally a couple of times in the room where I was sleeping, and
25 he told me that for the time they did not want to come, but that he was
1 going to do his best and try to arrange for someone to come and take us to
2 the hospital because I was not the only one. There were several of us
4 Q. Once this ambulance arrived, who put you into the ambulance?
5 Who authorised that, if you know?
6 A. Yes, I do. I think that it was Dr. Mirko Barudzija who arrived
7 first, but he couldn't obtain permission to leave the camp, so he went to
8 the military police to ask for that permission.
9 Q. If you know why -- if you know, who wouldn't allow
10 Dr. Barudzija to leave the camp? Who wouldn't give him permission?
11 A. Kajin would have given him the permission, but not the Banovic
13 Q. When the doctor went to the military police, what did he
14 return with, if you know?
15 A. He returned in an ambulance van, and another vehicle belonging to
16 the emergency service for me so that I could be placed in the vehicle in a
17 lying position, so that I could be actually carried into that vehicle.
18 Q. Were other prisoners also taken in the ambulance and emergency
19 vehicle to the hospital that day?
20 A. Yes, but not all of them.
21 Q. Who, if you can recall, went to the hospital that day?
22 A. Yes, I do recall. Apart from myself, my father went to the
23 hospital, Zoran the taxi driver, the Croat, one of the detainees; Fehim
24 Alisic, Islamovic the policeman, and an Albanian who was from Prijedor,
25 but whose name I can't remember at the moment.
1 Q. Where were you taken in the emergency vehicles?
2 A. We were taken to hospital. At the entrance to the hospital there
3 was the emergency department.
4 Q. This is the hospital in Prijedor?
5 A. Yes, Prijedor hospital.
6 Q. If you can recall, do you know the name of the hospital?
7 A. It was named after a national hero, Dr. Mladen Stojanovic.
8 Q. Were you admitted to the hospital that day?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. To your knowledge, were all the prisoners who went with you
11 admitted to the hospital?
12 A. Yes, I believe that they were all admitted, but with a lot of
13 difficulty, I must say.
14 Q. What was that difficulty, if you know?
15 A. They only wanted to give us first aid, medical assistance, and
16 then they wanted us to be taken back. However, Dr. Barudzija,
17 Dr. Stojnic, and Dr. Resic, two doctors by the name of Resic, intervened
18 for us to be kept at hospital. There were two other detainees with us who
19 had serious injuries.
20 Q. How long did you remain in the hospital?
21 A. For over a month. I cannot tell you exactly how long. I don't
22 know exactly how many days, but it must have been over a month.
23 Q. What type of treatment, if any, did you receive during your
24 stay in the hospital?
25 A. At the beginning it was very difficult. We were considered to be
1 traitors, those of us who had come from the camp. It was difficult for me
2 to explain this to you, but later on they behaved in a correct manner.
3 Q. Did you receive an operation for your leg?
4 A. Yes. Two or three weeks later, three weeks later, I believe, and
5 I was operated by Dr. Sovilj.
6 Q. After the operation, were you put in a cast?
7 A. Yes, I was. From the heel up to the hip.
8 Q. For how long were you in that cast?
9 A. After the operation I still had to wear that cast for five months.
10 Q. During the time that you were in the hospital, were you ever
11 questioned by any officials about what had happened to you?
12 A. Yes. A gentleman from the military police came first. I believe
13 that he was some kind of investigator or a Prosecutor, I'm not sure. I
14 don't know his name, but he did introduce himself to me. I cannot recall
15 his name.
16 He said that he was a military police investigator, and he wanted
17 to know what had happened.
18 Q. And what, if anything, did you tell him?
19 A. I told him that I slipped down on the floor in Keraterm, and then
20 that I fell down the stairs and broke my leg.
21 Q. Were you later interviewed again by the military police?
22 A. Yes, on two or three occasions.
23 Q. At some point did you tell them the truth about what had
24 happened to you?
25 A. Yes, but I think that he already knew the truth. I believe that
1 Kajin had told everything.
2 Q. When you told the military policeman the truth about what had
3 happened to you, did they make a report to your knowledge about that?
4 A. As I said, there was a gentleman there who worked for the military
5 police. He was a kind of public Prosecutor. I don't know that. After
6 that a military policeman came by the name of Jovo Sipka, and the two of
7 them drafted a report.
8 Q. Did you on any occasion see Zoran Zigic in the hospital?
9 A. Yes, after the operation, or maybe before the operation. I cannot
10 tell you exactly when.
11 Q. Where were you in the hospital when you saw him?
12 A. When I saw him on the first time in the hospital, I was on the
13 ground floor of the hospital. I was going to have my bandages changed or
14 for a checkup, I don't remember exactly.
15 Q. Were you on a gurney, in a hospital bed, or in a wheelchair?
16 Where were you?
17 A. Throughout that time I was on a hospital bed.
18 Q. At the time you saw him, where was the hospital bed located?
19 Where were you physically located?
20 A. I was waiting for my turn to come to be taken to that room, and it
21 was not far from the entrance to the hospital, but it was inside the
23 Q. What did you see while you were on that hospital bed?
24 A. A nurse by the name of Dijana came out of that room where I was
25 supposed to be taken. I cannot recall her surname at the moment, but she
1 used to come there often. She said, "Edin, go and hide somewhere. Zigic
2 is here."
3 Q. Now, why would she have said that to you?
4 A. Because she knew what the story was. Everybody did. She knew
5 that he was looking for me all the time.
6 Q. Now, did anyone else come up to you and tell you what Zigic was
7 doing in the hospital that day?
8 A. Yes, later on by Dr. Mirzo Resic or Hasim Resic. Yes, it was
9 Hasim Resic.
10 Q. Hasim Resic is a doctor in the hospital, was a doctor in the
11 hospital at that time?
12 A. Yes, a surgeon.
13 Q. And what did he tell you?
14 A. That Zoran Zigic had killed Omer Karagic, a taxi driver,
15 Karagic, I believe, is the surname.
16 Q. Did he indicate where Zoran Zigic had killed this taxi driver Omer
18 A. In the admission room, in the emergency ward.
19 Q. The emergency ward of the hospital?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. When he said this to you, did he indicate when this event had
23 A. Yes. He told me that Omer had been brought to hospital in a very
24 serious condition, that Zigic had injured him at home with his pistol, and
25 that he was brought to the hospital by some friends. In the meantime,
1 Zigic came to the hospital and killed him there.
2 Q. From what the doctor told you, did he indicate that that event
3 had happened that day, I mean at that time that he was telling you?
4 A. After that, after the day I saw Zoran Zigic in hospital.
5 Q. Did you see -- you indicated you saw Zoran Zigic that day.
6 What is it that you saw?
7 A. I saw him very briefly. He came out of the room holding a knife
8 in his hand. I believe that he was wiping his knife on his trousers and
9 putting it back in the holster.
10 Q. After you saw Zigic, did anyone else come up to you and say
11 anything to you while you were there on the hospital bed?
12 A. The nurse, Dijana, was with me all the time. She was trying to
13 protect me, to cover me up so that he wouldn't recognise me.
14 Q. What was she doing to cover you?
15 A. She pulled a sheet over myself.
16 Q. Now, after you saw Zigic come out with that knife, do you recall
17 what, if anything, she said to you?
18 A. I think she said, "He's killed Omer."
19 Q. And when she said "Omer", did you know who she was referring to?
20 A. Yes, because she had been in the room before that, and I know the
21 man, though not very well.
22 Q. Okay. And who was she referring to? What was the man's full
24 A. She was referring to the patient who was there when she was in
25 that room a few minutes before I got there.
1 Q. Yes. And what was the patient's name that she was referring to,
2 his full name?
3 A. Omer is his name. As for his family name it is either Karagic or
4 Karadzic, I wouldn't know.
5 Q. Do you know what his ethnic group was?
6 A. Well, judging by his name, he was a Muslim.
7 Q. Did you see Zoran Zigic in the hospital on a second occasion?
8 A. Yes. Two or three weeks after that, I'm not sure exactly how long
9 after that.
10 Q. Where did you see him?
11 A. He came to my room, room number 3 on the second floor.
12 Q. What happened when Zoran Zigic came upstairs to your room?
13 A. He came together with another man who accompanied him and who was
14 heavily armed. He had a machine gun in his hand. And he was completely
15 drunk. He stank of alcohol. And he was looking for Edin Ganic.
16 Q. Did he have, to your knowledge, any contact with the hospital
18 A. Later on, yes, but initially he came to the room looking for me.
19 And I said I didn't know where the person was, and then he left the room.
20 Q. Now, to your knowledge --
21 JUDGE RIAD: Excuse me, who had the machine gun in his hand, the
22 man or Zigic?
23 A. This other man who accompanied Zigic. Zigic was armed with a hand
24 grenade, a pistol, and a knife.
25 MR. KEEGAN:
1 Q. When you denied that you didn't know where Edin Ganic was, what
2 did Zigic and this other man do?
3 A. They left the room, and then they went to -- from room to room
4 calling out my name. And finally they probably learned from the nurses in
5 which room I was, and they came back.
6 Q. Now, do you have any idea of why Zigic would not have recognised
7 you when he came into that room the first time?
8 A. I had a beard. I had not shaved for two months, approximately two
10 Q. When Zigic returned to the room, what, if anything, happened?
11 A. He came back together with his escort, and he asked who Edin Ganic
12 was, and I said I was, and he asked me why I had not said that before, but
13 I didn't say anything to that. Then at that moment he pulled out his
14 knife, and he asked me which of my legs was broken, and I told him it was
15 the right one which had a cast on. And then with the tip of his knife,
16 holding, still holding the knife in his hand, he asked me in which part of
17 the leg, and I lied to him. I told him it was the lower part of the leg.
18 And then with the tip of his knife, he stabbed that spot and he pierced
19 the cast with it.
20 And he kept asking me about the money. He said, "Now you're going
21 to tell me where the money is. This is your last chance." And he also
22 wanted to know where my aunt Rizvic, Devla Rizvic lived.
23 Q. Okay. In addition to the money, did Zoran Zigic ask you about
24 your motorcycles or any other property?
25 A. Yes. It was always the same story. He wanted to know about the
1 pot of gold, the motorcycle, the construction machines, but usually he
2 would ask about the pot of gold and the motorcycle, and the money in
3 general. And I kept telling him that I didn't have any of that, just as I
4 had told him on previous occasions.
5 Q. You indicated he also asked you about your aunt, Devla
6 Rizvic. Do you know why he was asking you about her?
7 A. She used to work in the States for 36 years, and then she came
8 back to Yugoslavia prior to the war when she retired. So he probably
9 thought that she had money, and that's why he wanted to know that.
10 Q. When you say the States, you mean the United States?
11 A. Yes, the United States of America.
12 Q. Did you tell Zigic where your aunt was?
13 A. Yes, I did, but I gave him the wrong address.
14 Q. Why did you do that?
15 A. Because I knew he would look for her, and she's an elderly woman.
16 She was over 60, 67, and that he would be asking her for money. And she
17 didn't have any.
18 Q. Did you fear for her safety, her physical safety?
19 A. Yes, of course.
20 Q. Now, during the time that Zigic was asking you these questions,
21 were you being beaten or otherwise mistreated?
22 A. His escort kept mistreating the two men who were with me all the
23 time, and then he hit me with a pistol, and he threatened me with his
24 knife a couple of times, that he would slit my throat. He put his knife
25 here under my throat, and I started bleeding on that spot. And then at
1 that moment I grabbed the knife with my hand. I don't know whether he was
2 only pretending or whether he was serious about it, but he said, "Now I'm
3 going to slit your throat." But I grabbed the knife with my hand, and at
4 that moment he saw my gold ring.
5 Q. Now the "he" that you are referring to, the person that put the
6 knife under your throat and whose hand you grabbed, who are you referring
8 A. I'm referring to Zoran Zigic.
9 Q. When he saw your gold ring, what, if anything, did he say to you?
10 A. He told me, "Edin, why didn't you tell me about this?" So I had to
11 take off my golden ring. And he said, "Now you're going to give it to me
12 as a present so that you wouldn't think I am forcing you to give it to
13 me," and that's what I did. I gave it to him.
14 Q. Who were the other two men who were in the room with you, the
15 patients, that you indicated the man who was with Zoran Zigic was beating
16 and mistreating?
17 A. I don't know the man, but the two persons who were with me in the
18 room, one of them was Kadiric, I forgot his name. He was from Biscani.
19 He used to work in Germany. And a 12-year-old boy from Carakovo.
20 Q. Do you know what the ethnic group of those two individuals
21 were, the man from Biscani and this 12-year-old boy?
22 A. They were Muslims.
23 Q. Did this man who was with Zigic beat both the man named Kadiric
24 from Biscani and the 12-year-old boy?
25 A. Yes, yes, that's right. He beat them both.
1 Q. After you gave Zigic your gold ring, what happened?
2 A. The military police turned up. The nurse called the military
4 Q. When the military police arrived, what, if anything, did Zoran
5 Zigic do?
6 A. He took out a hand grenade and pulled the pin out and said that he
7 would throw it unless they left the room.
8 Q. And did they leave?
9 A. Yes, they left the room, and returned with another military
10 policeman who was enormous.
11 Q. What happened when they returned with this enormous military
13 A. That policeman said to me, "Zigic, if you have any balls," I
14 apologise for using that term, "go ahead and throw it." But he didn't do
15 that. He put the pin back in the hand grenade. And then he threw him out
16 and beat him up
17 Q. Okay. After Zigic put the pin back in the hand grenade, who threw
18 who out of the room?
19 A. The military policeman. I think he might -- he was their
20 superior, I think, but I don't know his name. I'd never seen him before.
21 I know that he was from Omarska. At least, he said he was from Omarska.
22 Q. Who did he throw out of the room?
23 A. Zoran Zigic and the man with him, both of them.
24 Q. When did you leave the hospital?
25 A. In August, I think. I don't remember the exact date. I think it
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the English
14 and French transcripts
1 was either the 4th or 5th of August.
2 Q. Do you recall whether or not you received a hospital release form
3 when you were discharged?
4 A. Yes. Bozo Kovacevic gave me the hospital release form. He was
5 generally somebody who helped me a great deal. He was from Omarska, and
6 he was a medical technician.
7 Q. Where were you taken from the hospital?
8 A. To Trnopolje.
9 Q. When you say Trnopolje, are you referring to the Trnopolje
11 A. Yes, the camp, the Trnopolje camp by Kozarac.
12 Q. When you arrived at the Trnopolje camp, did you, were you
14 A. Yes. I came under special escort. Sipka Jovo organised all this,
15 and I was put in a separate room under guard.
16 Q. Did you receive a copy of this registration into the camp?
17 A. No. I just had to report to Slobodan Kuruzovic. He took me in.
18 But as he knew my name and surname -- he was my teacher, he taught maths
19 at my primary school.
20 Q. Did you later receive a Red Cross registration form for the camp
21 that indicated that you were -- had been in the camp?
22 A. I got that later when I left, yes.
23 Q. Now, you indicated that you were brought to the camp under escort
24 and put in a separate room. Where, to your knowledge, was this room that
25 you were put into?
1 A. It was in the school in Trnopolje where we were put up, in the
2 outpatient clinic.
3 Q. At that time did you still have a cast on your leg?
4 A. Yes. I had the cast.
5 Q. Did you, on any occasion, see Zoran Zigic in the Trnopolje camp?
6 A. Yes. I think he came to look for me the next day.
7 Q. What do you recall seeing?
8 A. He came in a Mercedes. I can't remember the colour, whether it
9 was black or green, but he got out of the car and with a loud voice he
10 said, "Ganic, where are you? Let me hear you? Speak up." And the other
11 guards from the camp came up to him, one of the men standing by the car
12 when he came out got a blow. And the other guards went up to him, and he
13 had to leave the camp.
14 Q. When you say he had to leave the camp, you're referring to Zoran
16 A. Yes. I mean Zoran Zigic.
17 Q. When did you leave the Trnopolje camp?
18 A. It was on my birthday, the 7th of August, 1992.
19 Q. How were you released from the camp?
20 A. The commander -- well, no, that's silly. The main one in the Red
21 Cross in Trnopolje was the father of an acquaintance of mine, of my
22 wife's, and he saw to that, and they took me home. His name was Igor. I
23 forget his surname.
24 Q. This Igor, he arranged for you to get the certificate that you
25 referred to for release from the camp?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Where did you go from the camp?
3 A. He took me home.
4 Q. And when you say "he," do you mean Igor?
5 A. Yes, Igor, Curguz, Curguz was his name. I remember now.
6 Q. Did you stay in your house after you returned there?
7 A. No. I talked to Jovo Sipka on the phone several times. He was
8 a man who helped me a great deal in the hospital: And, in fact, they
9 organised it all in the camp. He wanted to protect me from Zoran Zigic,
10 and he said, "Edin, you mustn't go home. You must go somewhere else and
12 Q. And so what did you do?
13 A. My mother went to a neighbour, our next door neighbour,
14 Ms. Kusunic, Mara Kusunic, and asked whether I could spend the night
15 there, and he said --
16 THE INTERPRETER: We didn't hear the answer, yes or no.
17 A. "No problem, yes."
18 MR. KEEGAN:
19 Q. So you slept in the house of your neighbour?
20 A. That's right.
21 Q. Did you ever have an encounter with Zoran Zigic again?
22 A. I think a week or two after I had left the camp he came to the
24 Q. When you say he came to the house, what house are you
25 referring to?
1 A. My house where I live number 320 Gomjenica.
2 Q. Were you home when Zigic came to your family house?
3 A. I was that day. That was just by chance that I had come because
4 my one-time girlfriend and my wife now had come and wanted to see me, and
5 so I went home.
6 Q. What happened when Zigic arrived?
7 A. Zigic arrived with an escort, I think his name was Dosen, I'm not
8 quite sure, and with a child, 10 to 12 years old. They came in a car,
9 I think the make was a Lada.
10 Q. When they arrived at your house, what happened?
11 A. I was in the yard shaving, and my wife was inside, my brother was
12 inside, and so was my mother. I couldn't escape because I had a plaster
13 cast. My brother succeeded in escaping from the house. He came out with
14 a pistol in his hand. He came out of the car, and his escort, Dosen.
15 Q. Now, when you say your brother escaped from the house, is that
16 your brother Elvis who you referred to yesterday?
17 A. Yes. He left the camp several days after me.
18 Q. Now, when Zigic got out of the car, what, if anything, did he
20 A. He said something like, "Ganic, there you are. I've caught you."
21 Something like that, I'm not quite sure because a lot of time has gone by
22 since then. I can't remember exactly.
23 Q. At some point did you go into the house along with Zigic and a
24 man who was accompanying him, Dosen?
25 A. Yes, that was later.
1 Q. You indicated that your mother was in the house and your wife.
2 Was there anyone else in the house who was visiting you?
3 A. Yes, my neighbour, the lady that I was with, she was an elderly
4 lady, Mara Kusunic. She was in the yard with me.
5 Q. And what, if you know, what was her ethnic group?
6 A. She was a Serb.
7 Q. What, if anything, happened to her on that day?
8 A. They started beating me as soon as they came into the yard, and
9 she tried to protect me. Zigic stabbed her with a knife in one of her
10 breasts, I think. I know that he said, "What are you doing in a balija
12 Q. At that time, was Zigic saying anything or demanding anything
13 from you?
14 A. Yes. He wanted me to find the pot of gold for him quickly, or
15 otherwise he said he'd kill me.
16 Q. To your knowledge, did anyone to was in the house call for help?
17 A. Yes. My present wife, she called the police.
18 Q. And did the police arrive?
19 A. Yes. The police arrived, the regular police force, about half an
20 hour later.
21 Q. What happened when those policemen arrived?
22 A. They came to in front of the house, but he just shot out, and they
23 were afraid of him, so they left. Everybody was afraid of him, the
24 whole town, Serbs, Muslims, everybody.
25 Q. Now, when you say he -- the English translation is: "They came to
1 in front of the house, but he just shot out." What do you mean by "he
2 shot out"?
3 A. Zoran Zigic shot at the two policemen who came, fired at them.
4 Q. After the policemen left, what happened?
5 A. I couldn't tell you exactly how long this went on. I don't know.
6 But he kept hitting me on the head with his rifle butt and he played
7 around with his knife, and I think he sort of made the sign of the cross
8 or something like that. And my mother had to make lunch for him and bring
9 out the plum brandy.
10 First of all, I had to try the food she had prepared to see if it
11 wasn't poisoned. Perhaps that was stupid, but then he ate afterwards.
12 Q. At some point did he tell you to get in his vehicle?
13 A. Yes. 1, 2, 3 hours later, I don't know how long this went on.
14 When I said I didn't have any money to give him, that I couldn't give
15 him any money because I didn't have any to give him because I knew he'd
16 kill me, that's what kept my alive, actually, he put me in the car and the
17 young boy went in. Later on from the military police I learned that -- I
18 found out that he had kidnapped the boy just as he had taken the car from
19 a man in Cirkin Polje. I think that man was a Croat, but he was in the
20 Serb army. And he took me in the direction of Carakovo.
21 Q. Now, during -- after he put you in the car and took you in the
22 direction of Carakovo, what, if anything, did Zigic say to you?
23 A. He said that I should say farewell to my mother because
24 I'd never see her again, and then we went off.
25 Q. Then at one point did he tell you he was going to kill you?
1 A. Yes. Like everyone that ended up in Carakovo on the hill, as he
2 used to say.
3 Q. How did he refer to that? What did he tell you about when he
4 killed you?
5 A. I can't remember that now. All I know is that he threatened me,
6 he threatened to take me to Carakovo and to leave me there, to throw me
7 to the dogs. Something like that.
8 Q. Did he refer to any numbers?
9 A. Yes. He mentioned a number, said that I was now the 240-something
11 Q. And after this happened, what did you do, after he made these
13 A. He put me in the car, and we went in the direction of Carakovo.
14 Q. At that point, what did you do?
15 A. I tried to convince him that I had no money, but he just didn't
16 believe me. He knew that I had the money. How he knew, I don't know.
17 And when I saw that the joke was up and that that was my last chance, half
18 a kilometre later I said that I knew where the money was.
19 Q. And did you go back to your family's house with Zigic and dig up
20 the valuables that your family had buried?
21 A. Yes, we went back. I had to find a shovel and dig it up.
22 Q. And did you give those valuables to Zigic?
23 A. Yes. I had to dig them up, but that wasn't enough for him. It
24 was too little. He asked for a further 50.000 Deutschmarks in cash, and I
25 really didn't have it.
1 Q. What happened when he demanded this 50.000 Deutschmarks?
2 A. Well, he was in a good mood when he saw what he'd got, but he took
3 my wife as hostage and went off in the direction of Prijedor, and he said
4 that he'd be back in an hour or two, and that I should get the 50.000
5 marks by that time.
6 Q. Now --
7 A. And he left, he left by car.
8 Q. Now, the items that you dug up and gave to Zigic, did that include
9 your family's gold jewellery as well as German marks and US dollars?
10 A. Yes. It was my mother's, aunt's, and sister's jewellery, as well
11 as the money.
12 Q. And to your knowledge, was Zigic prevented from reaching Prijedor?
13 A. Yes. The grandchildren of the woman he'd stabbed with the knife,
14 they set up a checkpoint at Goran Kusunic's house and told him to stop.
15 He didn't want to stop, so they shot at him, and they wounded him in the
16 head, on the head.
17 Q. And did those local villagers then take Zigic into custody, to
18 your knowledge?
19 A. That's right, yes. They took him to the Crisis Staff of
21 Q. And if you know, was he later arrested by any of the authorities
22 from Prijedor?
23 A. Yes, they arrested him. The military police came up -- came by
24 after that. Jovo Sipka came. I had to make a statement, as did the old
25 woman Mara; and they took me to have my head stitched, to the hospital.
1 Q. Now, did you or your family ever receive back the jewellery and
2 money which had been taken by Zigic?
3 A. No, it was never returned, but my mother found some money and
4 gold jewellery in the car, and she went to identify whether it was hers or
5 not, but it wasn't our jewellery. It was somebody else's.
6 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, at this time I'd like to show the
7 witness a series of exhibits. If I could have the assistance of the
8 usher, please.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Keegan, how much more time
10 do you need to finish the examination?
11 MR. KEEGAN: Probably about 10 minutes, Your Honour. I just want
12 to have --
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Ten minutes?
14 MR. KEEGAN: I just want to have the witness authenticate the
15 documents. There's a photo board that he needs to look at and then the
16 identification, and that's it.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So we're going to try and finish
18 before the break.
19 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour. This is what's been marked as
20 Exhibit 3/139. If the usher could show the Serbo-Croatian version to the
21 witness and put the English version on the ELMO, please.
22 Q. Mr. Ganic, can you look at this document, please, review it, and
23 then indicate if you recognise what it is.
24 A. Yes. That's my release form from the hospital.
25 Q. Does that document reflect the day that you were treated at -- or
1 admitted to the hospital, that is, 1 July 1992?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And it indicates the nature of your injury and the treatment you
5 A. That's right.
6 MR. KEEGAN: The next document -- if the usher could retrieve that
7 exhibit. This would be Prosecution Exhibit 3/140, "A" being the English
8 translation and "B" being the Serbo-Croatian version.
9 Q. Mr. Ganic, can you please review that document and tell us if you
10 recognise it, please.
11 A. Yes. That is my release form from the Keraterm camp -- I'm sorry,
13 Q. And does that form indicate the date that you arrived in the camp,
14 the Trnopolje camp?
15 A. Yes. The 5th of August, yes.
16 MR. KEEGAN: That document can be returned to the registrar,
17 please. And the next document, the next document is marked 3/141, "A" for
18 the English translation and "B" for the Serbo-Croatian version.
19 Q. Mr. Ganic, I realise that the photocopy is not a very good one,
20 but are you able to recognise what that document is?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. What is that, please?
23 A. It's the diagnosis and the opinion given by the doctor in the
24 hospital in Prijedor.
25 Q. And was this document used for your follow-up treatment for your
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MR. KEEGAN: The next document would be marked 3/142, Your Honour,
5 A, B, and C.
6 Q. Mr. Ganic, do you recall being shown a photo board by an
7 investigator from the Tribunal?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did the investigator and the interpreter who was with him explain
10 the procedures for viewing the photo board to you?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did you understand the procedures that were explained to you?
13 A. I did.
14 Q. Did you recognise anyone in the photo board?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And who was that?
17 A. Zoran Zigic.
18 MR. KEEGAN: Just the photo board, please, if that could be shown
19 to the witness.
20 Q. Mr. Ganic, if you could please look at this photo board, and also
21 turn it over and look on the back, please. Does your signature appear on
22 the back of that photo board?
23 A. Correct, yes.
24 Q. Is that the photo board which you were shown by the investigator
25 from the Tribunal?
1 A. That's right, yes.
2 MR. KEEGAN: If the photo board could be placed on the ELMO,
3 please. Could the ELMO be zoomed back, please? Is that possible? No?
5 Q. Mr. Ganic, if you could please, using the pointer, point to the
6 individual on the photo board whom you recognised.
7 MR. KEEGAN: And Mr. Usher, you're going to need to move.
8 Q. If you point over on the actual projector, Mr. Ganic, and if you
9 could move that so it can be seen, please.
10 Who is that individual?
11 A. That's Zoran Zigic.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 A. You're welcome.
14 Q. Mr. Ganic, other than that photo board which you were shown by an
15 ICTY investigator, had you seen any photographs of Zoran Zigic or seen him
16 in the media or otherwise since you the left the Prijedor area?
17 A. No. When I was (redacted), I didn't see anything.
18 Q. Mr. Ganic, I would like you to please look around the courtroom
19 and indicate whether you can see the individual who you've spoken about as
20 Zoran Zigic in this courtroom. If you need to, you may stand up to get a
21 better look. If you think it's necessary, you may ask for anyone to stand
22 up in order to get a better look. If you see any individual whom you
23 recognise, please indicate where that person is sitting and describe what
24 they're wearing.
25 A. He's wearing a blue suit and tie, and he's sitting next to the man
1 with the moustache, Ziga.
2 Q. That individual who you are describing, what is his full
4 A. Zoran Zigic.
5 Q. What colour shirt is he wearing, please?
6 A. White.
7 Q. In the area in which you have indicated you're looking, there
8 are two rows, which row are you referring to is he sitting in? The row
9 closest to you or the row farthest away against the wall?
10 A. The row closest to me, that is to say, the first row.
11 Q. Is there any doubt in your mind that the individual whom you've
12 just identified is Zoran Zigic whom you described as beating you and
13 maltreating you in the camp, in the hospital, and at your home after you
14 were released from the camps?
15 A. That's the same person.
16 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour if the record could reflect a positive
17 identification of Zoran Zigic. I have no further questions, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Keegan.
19 Mr. Keegan, we're going to have a break. I'm going to ask the registrar
20 to -- the usher, I'm sorry, to accompany the witness out of the
22 We're going to have a half-hour break now.
23 --- Recess taken at 11.04 a.m.
24 --- On resuming at 11.34 a.m.
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.
1 I see that Mr. Krstan Simic is going to start the
2 cross-examination, and what is going to be the order after you,
3 Mr. Simic?
4 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, after me it will be
5 Mr. Stojanovic's turn. Other Defence counsel do not have questions for
6 this witness.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you.
8 Mr. Ganic, now you're going to answer questions that will be put
9 to you by Defence counsel. As you know, they are here to do their job.
10 The accused, of course, have a right to defence. Mr. Simic. You have the
12 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Cross-examined by Mr. K. Simic:
14 Q. Good morning, Mr. Ganic?
15 A. Good morning.
16 Q. My name is Krstan Simic, together with my colleague Mr. Lukic who
17 is a lawyer from Doboj, I am representing Mr. Kvocka in this case.
18 In relation to your testimony yesterday and your previous
19 statement, I will have a few questions for you, and I hope I will be as
20 brief as possible.
21 Mr. Ganic, you testified yesterday about your arrest. You said
22 you had been arrested between the 24th and the 26th of June, 1992 when you
23 were taken to Keraterm; is that correct?
24 A. Yes, it is.
25 Q. You stated yesterday that Mr. Dado Mrdja informed you that
1 Mr. Kvocka had been replaced, had been dismissed. I should like to know
2 whether that information was given to you prior to your arrest and your
3 transfer to Keraterm?
4 A. Yes, it was before that.
5 Q. How much time before?
6 A. Between 7 or 10 days before that. I cannot tell you exactly, but
7 it was sometime before that.
8 Q. Is it correct to say that you met with the investigators of the
9 OPT on the 22nd, the 27th, and the 28th of February, as well as on the 1st
10 of March, 1999, according to the statement of yours that we have, and that
11 on that occasion you spoke voluntarily about the events to the best of
12 your recollection? I'm referring to the events that you discussed during
13 your testimony here.
14 A. Yes, it is.
15 Q. You mentioned Mr. Dado Mrdja yesterday on several occasions in
16 your statement, and I will quote briefly what you said in relation to
17 Mr. Mrdja. It's on page 7 for Mr. Keegan. "When the war started in
18 Croatia he volunteered and he was recruited by the military police. In
19 May 1992, he came back to Prijedor." Is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Yesterday you told us that Mr. Mrdja had worn a military police
23 A. Yes, that is correct.
24 Q. Could you tell the Judges any particular detail on the basis of
25 which it is possible for us who come from that part of the world can
1 distinguish between the military and the civilian uniform?
2 A. The uniform was blue in colour. It was a camouflage uniform, but
3 the predominant colour was blue, the kind of blue as those curtains over
5 Q. Did he have any belt?
6 A. Yes. He had a white belt.
7 Q. So he belonged to the military police because they wear white
9 A. Yes. I know that because I did not military service.
10 Q. Yesterday you mentioned a certain Damir from Gomjenica?
11 A. That is correct.
12 Q. What kind of uniform did he have? Was it a police uniform? A
13 military uniform, or a military police uniform?
14 A. It was the usual olive-grey uniform, the kind that members of the
15 former JNA wore.
16 Q. Is it true for me to say that it was neither a uniform of the
17 civilian or the military police?
18 A. Yes, that is correct.
19 Q. Thank you. In your testimony on page 7 again, you speak about a
20 contact that you once had with Mr. Mrdja, "On that day Dado was
21 accompanied by a big man who was apparently a guard in Omarska. He was
22 about 180 centimetres tall, of an athletic build, and was wearing a
23 military police uniform." Do you remember the event?
24 A. Yes, I did.
25 Q. Did he introduce himself to you?
1 A. No. He didn't.
2 Q. So he also -- he told you that he could help you with your
3 brother, that he could arrange for your brother to come back?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. He, too, was wearing a military police uniform?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Mr. Ganic, you had just said that you did your military service,
8 and naturally you understand the way it is organised, structured. I'm
9 interested in the military police. Did it belong, according to its
10 structure and organisation, to -- did it come under the military
11 authorities or civilian authorities?
12 A. Under the military authority.
13 Q. You testified a moment ago about the time when you were supposed
14 to have been given some medical help. You said that the ambulance
15 carrying you and other injured individuals were not allowed to leave
16 Keraterm until a permission by the military police was obtained; is that
18 A. Yes. That is what I was told.
19 Q. Yesterday you spoke about the position of both Damir and Mr. Mrdja
20 in Omarska, and that there's something that's left unclear, so let me try
21 to clarify with a question.
22 What exactly was it that Mrdja told you regarding his duties or
23 functions in the Omarska camp?
24 A. As far as I can remember, he told me he was a guard, and that his
25 duty was to escort convoys going in and out of Omarska.
1 Q. If I understand you correctly, Mr. Mrdja told you that his duty
2 was to escort convoys which were transporting the detainees to Omarska?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Yesterday you testified that your brother Elvis was in Omarska?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You told us that he had not been severely mistreated, if I can put
7 it that way. Thanks to whom?
8 A. Thanks to Dado Mrdja and Nikica Janjic, who, together with other
9 guards arranged for him not to be harmed.
10 Q. Is it correct for me to say that Dado Mrdja was able to have
11 certain influence as a member of the military police with the security
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. As regards this influence and the possibility for certain people,
15 today you mentioned for example the person by the name of Igor Curguz?
16 A. Yes, I did.
17 Q. How old is Igor Curguz?
18 A. Like my wife, he was probably born in 1972 because he went to
19 school with my wife, so he's probably 28 today.
20 Q. So during that time he was approximately 20 years of age?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. So thanks to his influence or his connections, he was able to
23 arrange for you to be released from Trnopolje before it was your time?
24 A. Yes. His father was the chief of the local Red Cross.
25 Q. So he was able to help you?
1 A. Yes, he was.
2 Q. You testified today about a number of individuals whose names
3 I'm not going to repeat. You mentioned, for example, Dr. Sovilj, Igor
4 Curguz, Kovacevic, a male nurse from Novarska [phoen], the Kajin brothers
5 and nurse Dijana and so on and so forth, what was their ethnic background?
6 A. Nurse Dijana was a Muslim and the others were Serbs.
7 Q. Let me go back to the assistance that was provided in relation to
8 your brother when he was helped out of Omarska. We have just mentioned
9 this very tall military policeman who told you that he was also able to
10 help you with the release of your brother. How was it possible for him?
11 A. He said that it would be possible for them to put him in a car
12 trunk and for about -- for a couple of German marks, perhaps 3.000 German
13 marks, they would take him out of Omarska.
14 Q. Mr. Ganic, when you say in a trunk, the two of us know very well
15 what it is, but let us clarify.
16 A. I'm referring to the trunk of a car.
17 Q. Is it true for me to say that your brother was supposed to put --
18 to be put in a trunk, hidden there, and then taken out Omarska and brought
19 back for the price of 3.000 German marks?
20 A. That is correct, yes.
21 Q. So it was an illegal transaction?
22 A. Yes.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, you're drawing
25 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I apologise, Your Honour.
1 Mr. Ganic smiled and I just didn't resist.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, I myself smiled, too.
3 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Mr. Ganic, yesterday you told us that you were told by them that
5 this illegal transaction could be arranged for by a certain Kvocka whom
6 you didn't know?
7 A. No, I only knew the name of the man.
8 Q. Yesterday you told us that you were told that he was a commander
9 or a Deputy Commander of a camp. In your statement, you say that Dado
10 told you that he was a guard commander. Guard commander or shift
11 commander or a camp commander, is that one in the same thing for you, or
12 is there any difference?
13 A. No. It's not the same. There is a difference.
14 Q. Let me therefore read from your statement in relation to what Dado
15 allegedly told you?
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Keegan.
17 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour I think at this point we have a well
18 established procedure for this and the witness should be provided a copy
19 of the statement so that the witness can determine whether, in fact,
20 that's what the statement says, and if, in fact, the witness actually said
21 that. Thank you.
22 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I accept the objection; however, I
23 was only going to read one sentence so I didn't think it was necessary,
24 but I think it can be solved very quickly.
25 Q. Mr. Ganic, on page 7, fifth paragraph, I hope you can follow me,
1 "One day Dado said that he had a good friend named Kvocka."
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, why don't you ask the
3 witness if he has found the relevant passage, and if he's able to follow
5 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe that he can
6 follow me.
7 Q. Let me go back to this sentence for the third time. "One day Dado
8 said that he had a good friend named Kvocka who was a commander of the
9 guards at Omarska."
10 Mr. Ganic, did you state that to the investigators?
11 A. Yes, I did.
12 Q. Did Mr. Mrdja indeed tell you that?
13 A. I'm not a hundred per cent sure. It was long time ago. But at
14 any rate, he did have a command position. Whether he was a camp commander
15 or a commander of the guards, I don't know. The important thing was that
16 he was able to help.
17 Q. Is it correct for me to conclude or to say that you said that you
18 didn't know whether he was a commander of the guards, deputy commander,
19 or the commander of the thing, but that you had information to the effect
20 that he had some kind of command function, command position?
21 A. Yes, in the camp.
22 Q. Wasn't that suspicious to you as a businessman that someone who
23 had a kind of command position should try to steal someone from Omarska in
24 the trunk of his car, whereas Mr. Drago Mrdja through his authority should
25 be able to order someone -- to order other guards not to harm your
2 A. I didn't think about that. It was not important for me. The
3 price was not important. I wanted my brother to be helped out.
4 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Ganic, I have no further
5 questions for you. Thank you very much for your answers.
6 Thank you, Your Honours.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Simic.
9 Mr. Stojanovic. Mr. Stojanovic, you have the floor. Please
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
12 Cross-examined by Mr. Stojanovic:
13 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Ganic, my name is Slobodan Stojanovic. I'm a
14 lawyer from Belgrade, and together with my colleague Mr. Simo Tosic, a
15 lawyer from Banja Luka, I'm representing the accused Zoran Zigic in this
16 case, as his defence counsel.
17 Though you have mentioned Mr. Zigic a number of times during your
18 testimony, we will not trouble you too much with our questions, and I hope
19 that we will be able to be rather brief with this cross-examination.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Stojanovic, the interpreters
21 have just asked me to tell you to come closer to the microphone. Perhaps
22 you can move it to your right-hand side. Yes, that is fine. Thank you
23 very much, Mr. Stojanovic.
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Mr. Ganic, you testified yesterday that you were a Croat national
1 and that you said that at the time of your arrest, and that that was the
2 reason why you didn't have any identification papers with you.
3 A. Yes, that is correct.
4 Q. Could you explain to us how it is that you became a national of
6 A. Well, it is a different state today. I was referring to the
7 present Republic of Croatia. But during those times it was a country
8 within the former Yugoslavia.
9 Q. We are referring to the time of your arrest.
10 A. Yes. I was a citizen of the Republic of Croatia.
11 Q. Could you briefly explain to us how you obtained that citizenship?
12 A. I was registered as a resident of Vrgin Most, which is a small
13 town near Karlovac, and my papers were for that place of residence, Vrgin
14 Most, Karlovac.
15 Q. For the Court, Karlovac is a town in the Republic of Croatia.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Could you tell us when exactly, at what time of the day you were
18 brought to Keraterm?
19 A. I believe it was in the afternoon hours, 12.00, maybe 2.00, or
20 even 3.00. I don't know exactly when.
21 Q. I don't know whether I understand you correctly, and I have to ask
22 a longer question. You told us yesterday that it had all taken place on
23 one evening. A certain Jovo, a Serb, was the first one to be taken out,
24 He was beaten up; and on the same evening, sometime later on when Duca
25 arrived, a teacher from Kozarac was taken out and beaten as well. Later
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the English
14 and French transcripts
1 on, still the same evening, Drago Tokmadzic, Esad Islamovic were called
2 out; they were also mistreated.
3 After they had been called out, the three Alisic brothers were
4 called out. Still on the same evening, a certain Zoran, a taxi driver was
5 also called out. I believe that you said that he was a Croat by ethnic
6 background. And finally, on that evening Predrag Banovic called your name
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did it all happen on one and the same night?
10 A. I have to think a little. That night Zigic called out Jovo, I'm
11 sure about that.
12 Q. Excuse me. I wasn't interested in who called out whom. I wanted
13 to know whether the incidents took place on the same night, on the same
15 A. I cannot remember at the moment, but I think yes. I cannot
16 concentrate at the moment. I really don't recall. I'm sorry.
17 Q. We heard that on that particular evening, Predrag Banovic called
18 you out. What time of day was it? Could you give us the hour, perhaps,
19 if you remember?
20 A. It was night. It wasn't day. I can't tell you the exact time,
21 but it was late. Perhaps 10.00 p.m., 11.00, 9.00. I'm not sure, but it
22 was already night-time.
23 Q. Thank you. To go back to Drago Tokmadzic and Esad Islamovic, I
24 heard that they were in your room.
25 A. No.
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] For the Trial Chamber, I think
2 that that was page 80 of yesterday's LiveNote. But let's hear the
4 A. No, they weren't in my room. But they would always start out from
5 the first room and call people out.
6 Q. I'm talking about these two individuals. Which dormitory were
7 they in, Drago Tokmadzic and Esad Islamovic?
8 A. Well, they weren't in my room.
9 Q. Do you happen to know which room they were in?
10 A. I think they were in Room 4.
11 Q. You told us yesterday, if I'm right, that a Nikica Janjic, a
12 friend of yours, told you a great deal. Did he happen to tell you that
13 Tadic and Zigic forced a Muslim to bite off the testicles of another
14 Muslim, one Emir and Jasko?
15 A. Yes, that's what he told me. Whether it's true or not, I can't
16 say. I don't know. But that's what he said.
17 Q. When did Janjic tell you all these things?
18 A. When I went to the camp. At least, that's what I think.
19 Q. Did you ever hear of someone named Spija Mesic?
20 A. Yes, the driver. Yes, he was a driver, that's right. He was a
21 driver in the public utilities company.
22 Q. Was he with you in your room?
23 A. In my room? Let me think. I don't think so. I can't remember.
24 Q. Spija, is that a name, or is it a nickname?
25 A. It's a nickname. I don't know his proper name.
1 Q. We heard you say that Zigic wore a red cap of some kind.
2 A. Yes, that's right.
3 Q. Was that cap noticeably different from an ordinary beret?
4 A. Yes, that's right. I would say that it was the type of cap worn
5 by the Montenegrins, part of their national dress. I saw things like that
6 on television.
7 Q. And you said that there was a tassel.
8 A. Yes, there was. It was a Montenegrin cap.
9 Q. What kind of lighting was there in Keraterm? Was there any
10 lighting at all?
11 A. Well, at the reception area there was, and where the dormitories
12 were there were some lights, but the lighting was very poor.
13 Q. So only at the reception office; is that right?
14 A. Yes, and around the rooms where we slept, where there were
15 some sandbags as well.
16 Q. I didn't understand what you mean by around the rooms, the
17 dormitories. They're in the building, I know that.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Do you mean, was that in front?
20 A. Yes, in front.
21 Q. You mean in front of every room, that there was a light in front
22 of every room?
23 A. Well, I couldn't say that exactly.
24 Q. Was there any light in front of Room 4?
25 A. Yes, but it was very weak. It was a little further off.
1 Q. Did you personally ever see with your own eyes Zoran Zigic kill
3 A. I personally never saw that with my own eyes anywhere, in Keraterm
4 or outside.
5 Q. May I just go back for a moment to this Spija Mesic we mentioned a
6 moment ago. Do you know anything about his fate, what happened to him?
7 Is he still alive?
8 A. No, he's not alive.
9 Q. Do you know how he met his end?
10 A. I couldn't say.
11 Q. Let me remind you of your former statement. You mention a certain
12 man named Mesic but I don't know whether you mean the same one.
13 A. No, not that one.
14 Q. You saw Zigic in Trnopolje, if I'm right.
15 A. Yes, that's correct.
16 Q. Can you tell us what he was wearing on that occasion?
17 A. I can't say. I can't tell you exactly what kind of uniform he
19 Q. It would be sufficient if you told us whether he was wearing a
20 uniform or whether he was in civilian clothing.
21 A. I'm not sure. I can't remember it at this moment. I apologise,
22 but you know, it was a long time ago.
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have no further
24 questions for this witness.
25 Mr. Ganic, I thank you.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.
3 Mr. Keegan, any supplementary questions?
4 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour, just briefly.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please go ahead.
6 MR. KEEGAN: Thank you. If I could have the usher's assistance,
7 please. Show that to the witness, please.
8 Your Honours, the witness is being handed Prosecution Exhibit
9 3/22, or a copy of it.
10 Re-examined by Mr. Keegan:
11 Q. Mr. Ganic, I'd like you to please look at that photograph. I
12 realise it's hard with the lighting in here. But I'm interested in
13 whether you can recognise the type of uniform that that individual is
15 A. Yes. That is a military police --
16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone please, Mr. Stojanovic. Microphone.
17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise. We consider that
18 this question does not emanate from our cross-examination, or perhaps I'm
19 wrong, maybe it was Mr. Simic's.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Do you know what the question
21 was? I don't know yet. Do you know what question -- what the question
22 was, Mr. Stojanovic? What is the question?
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I understood the question to be a
24 recognition of certain types of uniform. Well, perhaps I wasn't paying
25 sufficient attention. Perhaps the cross-examination by Mr. Simic would
1 give rise to this question.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Let us wait for the question,
3 because I don't know what the question is, as far as I'm concerned. I
4 think that you're afraid that the Prosecutor is going to ask a question.
5 I'm going to authorise the Prosecutor to ask his question, then we'll see
6 what it is and what we'll do.
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Probably you didn't receive the
8 interpretation, Your Honour.
9 MR. KEEGAN:
10 Q. Mr. Ganic, are you able to recognise what type of uniform that
12 A. That is the uniform of the military police.
13 MR. KEEGAN: If that photograph could be placed on the ELMO.
14 Q. Is that the type of uniform which Dado Mrdja wore when he visited
16 A. That's right, yes.
17 Q. Mr. Ganic, do you happen to recognise the man in that photograph?
18 Do you know who that is?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Any idea whether he's a military policeman or in fact a civilian
21 or a regular policeman?
22 A. The uniform is a military police uniform, like the one that
23 military policemen wore.
24 MR. KEEGAN: If I could have the picture, please.
25 Q. Mr. Ganic, with respect to the uniform, your experience with
1 seeing military policemen wearing these uniforms came from your time of
2 your compulsory military service; is that you've testified to?
3 A. Yes, that's right.
4 Q. Is the extent of your experience with military organisation and
5 structure limited to the time that you did your compulsory military
7 A. I did my military service in 1981. Perhaps things have changed
8 but uniforms remained the same. It was always the same type of uniform.
9 Q. And since your military service in 1981, had you done any further
10 study or education with respect to military organisation and the laws
11 which applied between the civilian police and the military police during
12 time of war?
13 A. No. I wasn't interested in that.
14 Q. Do you know as a matter of certainty, can you state, excuse me, as
15 a matter of certainty whether or not civilian policemen might have been
16 issued these blue camouflage uniforms during the time of the conflict in
18 A. Everything was possible. I don't know. I can't say. But I do
19 know that that's a military police uniform. Jovo Sipka had that type of
20 uniform in the hospital. He was a Special Policeman, and he told me
22 MR. KEEGAN: No further questions, Your Honour.
23 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Krstan Simic.
25 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] If I may, I have two questions with
1 respect to the photographs introduced by Mr. Keegan.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Why? Why, Mr. Krstan Simic?
3 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Because of the identification of
4 the uniform. I would have two additional questions relating to a detail
5 which distinguishes a military policeman from an ordinary policeman.
6 Mr. Mrdja spoke about this, but Mr. Keegan didn't -- Mr. Ganic, I'm sorry,
7 Mr. Ganic didn't mention the fact. He did mention the fact, but Mr.
8 Keegan didn't.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You asked whether there was a
10 difference between the civilian and military police, and he said yes, the
11 belt was white for the military police. Is that what you want to know?
12 Is that what you
14 A. Yes
15 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I wish to ask the witness what --
16 about the white belt. Does he see the white belt as being the
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But the witness already
19 answered. The witness -- you already asked the question, and the witness
20 answered, and he said that it was the white belt that distinguished
21 between the two. Why insist upon the point? We're not going to authorise
22 you to ask the question because the question has already been asked,
23 Mr. Simic. The question has already been asked. You yourself asked the
24 question. You asked the witness, and the witness answered.
25 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. But my question
1 had a follow-up: Whether the photograph that was presented shows a white
2 belt as the symbol of distinction between the military and the civilian
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No. Mr. Prosecutor, do you have
5 an objection to make?
6 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, I was going to state that I think, one,
7 the issue was raised already on cross-examination, so it's been asked and
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Precisely.
10 MR. KEEGAN: In addition, I think it's apparent from the
11 photograph that the white belt is not there. And further this witness has
12 already testified that he has no expertise or knowledge as to the
13 relationship between the military police and the police in 1992, and
14 therefore, all he would be doing is repeating what he's already stated,
15 which is, the normal uniform was the camouflage with the white belt. And
16 we believe that's already clear for the record. So we don't believe
17 additional questions should be authorised.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Not to leave place for any
19 doubt. Do you have the exhibit, B3/22, registrar, or may it be placed on
20 the ELMO. Mr. Krstan Simic, we all saw the photograph. I don't know why
21 we're losing time over that, but you're going to have the photo
22 again without -- what are you going to ask the witness? Whether you see a
23 white belt? That's not necessary. You can take the photo away, and we're
24 not going to authorise the question. So please be seated, Mr. Simic. We
25 saw the photo and we were not able to see the white belt.
1 Judge Riad, do you have any questions?
2 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.
3 Questioned by the Court:
4 JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Ganic, good morning. Can you hear me?
5 A. Yes, I can hear you. Good morning.
6 JUDGE RIAD: Perhaps you can help me understand a few things more
7 since we were not there with you. Concerning the attitude of the police
8 with Mr. Zigic, there are many events where he was -- you were told that
9 first Dr. Resic told you in hospital, in hospital, that he killed Omer
10 Karagic in the admission room of the hospital, and the nurse told you, "Go
11 hide. Zigic is in town or is in the hospital." Then you made a report to
12 the military police, the military police apparently did not give any
13 further consideration; and one other case, your wife called the police
14 when he was at your home, the police came, and went away, and went away.
15 What was really the function of Mr. Zigic to be above the law?
16 A. I really don't understand. He had impossible powers. Everybody
17 was afraid of him, without exception. Muslims, Croats, Serbs. When There
18 were no more Muslims and Croats in Prijedor, he began killing Serbs. That
19 is common knowledge. Everybody knows it, but why, I can't say.
20 JUDGE RIAD: It was his reputation or his position in town?
21 A. His position in town. That's my opinion.
22 JUDGE RIAD: What was his position in town?
23 A. Everybody was afraid of him. He had this terrible power.
24 JUDGE RIAD: What was his position, his official position? Did he
25 have an official position where everybody can fear him, or it is a
1 reputation of --
2 A. No.
3 JUDGE RIAD: -- of a dangerous man?
4 A. Yes, the reputation of a dangerous man, that's right. His
5 reputation was like that.
6 JUDGE RIAD: Even the police would not come close to him?
7 A. Two policemen came and fired -- and he fired, but they ran away
8 straight away.
9 JUDGE RIAD: Was there real public order in town? Was the police
10 in charge of the town?
11 A. Yes.
12 JUDGE RIAD: You mentioned also, I think he said in the car, that
13 he has got 240 victims. Whom was he talking to, and would you just
14 explain that a little bit? What did he mean by having 240?
15 A. Probably that he had killed 240 people before me, and that I would
16 be the next one.
17 JUDGE RIAD: Was he telling that to you?
18 A. Yes. I was in the car.
19 JUDGE RIAD: And was it explicitly concerning killing, or
20 kidnapping, or anything. Because you said also he kidnapped a child. Was
21 he speaking of killing, that 24 [sic] were killed?
22 A. That he had killed them, yes.
23 JUDGE RIAD: What about the child who was kidnapped, do you know
24 anything about that?
25 A. His mother and my wife -- I apologise, my wife saw his mother in
2 JUDGE RIAD: And the child?
3 A. Yes, the child, too. They had a butcher shop in Prijedor.
4 JUDGE RIAD: So the child is back?
5 A. Yes, the child was returned, yes.
6 JUDGE RIAD: Now, one of your answers, you said that Zigic told
7 you, I think, that you will end up like that pig, trying to indicate Drago
8 Tokmadzic, the policeman. What did he mean by that, "You will end up like
9 that pig"? And then he added to the others, "Finish that up, finish
11 A. Probably that he would be dead or that he would be killed, or that
12 he would succumb to his injuries from the beatings, something along those
14 JUDGE RIAD: And do you know anything about the fate of Drago
15 Tokmadzic after that?
16 A. He was dead.
17 JUDGE RIAD: Now, there is some kind of slight difference or
18 contradiction, even, in what Zigic would be telling about you. For
19 instance, once you were being beaten, he said that -- he told them not to
20 beat you on the head because you are too sensitive. I don't know what
21 that meant.
22 Then on another instance he said, "We will have to incapacitate
23 him so that he could never ride his motorbicycle." Once he wants to
24 protect you and one he wants to incapacitate you. What was exactly his
25 attitude with you, and why?
1 A. One of them hit me with a heavy object on the head. I was still
2 conscious, but I pretended to have lost consciousness, and he probably
3 wanted to continue interrogating me to learn where the money was, where
4 the gold was.
5 And later on, they got tired of it, and they wanted to carry on
6 the next day. And they wanted to incapacitate me to prevent me from
7 escaping from the camp, for paying somebody to smuggle me out or something
8 like that, so that they would be sure that I'd be there the next day.
9 JUDGE RIAD: I understand that now. Can you ride your motorcycle
11 A. It's very difficult. I still ride it, but I can't bend my leg any
12 more. So it's difficult, but I do try.
13 JUDGE RIAD: Good luck. Thank you.
14 A. Thank you, too, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Judge Fouad Riad.
16 Madam Judge Wald has the floor.
17 JUDGE WALD: Mr. Ganic, the first is just a simple question that I
18 was not clear from the transcript. At the time that your leg was broken,
19 was it Zigic or Duca who said you'll never ride your motorcycle again?
20 A. I couldn't say for sure now. I'm not quite sure.
21 JUDGE WALD: Okay. The second question is a follow-up on
22 Judge Riad's question, but I'd like to make sure I understand. The
23 attitude that you told us that everybody was frightened of Zigic because
24 he had a terrible reputation for violence, but you gave us two examples,
25 one in the hospital where some military police came to question you, and
1 they were -- and then Zigic came and they were frightened back, but they
2 went and got a really big, apparently, policeman who took him out, took
3 care of him.
4 Then you gave us the incident of your home when your wife called
5 the police and Zigic fired at them, and they went away. They didn't want
6 to take him on.
7 Then we had the incident where the grandchildren of the
8 woman, the elderly woman neighbour that you said he stabbed, got together,
9 got him into custody, and you said they called the police, and he was
11 And the fourth time, the fourth incident, was when he came
12 looking for you in Trnopolje, and the guards in Trnopolje made him leave
13 the camp.
14 Do you have explanation based on your life in that area how some
15 people would apparently resist him or not go along with him and, at least
16 for the moment, get rid of him, and the others would back away and let him
17 do what he wanted?
18 A. I think that his reputation had begun to weaken, so if anybody was
19 physically stronger than him, they would not be afraid, like the soldier
20 from Omarska. He was an enormous man, big-built man. Physically, he was
21 stronger than him.
22 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Usher, could you help me,
24 and Mr. Keegan, could you lend me Exhibit 3/22, to have it placed on the
25 ELMO. On the ELMO, please, Mr. Usher. I don't want to have the
1 responsibility of the conclusion.
2 Witness, looking at this photograph, can you see on it a white
4 A. No.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Why do you not see a white belt?
6 A. Because the photograph is only up to the waist.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Why can it not be seen on the
8 photograph? What is the position of the individual on the photograph? Is
9 he standing?
10 A. I think he's sitting down, in a sitting position.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So the individual is sitting.
12 So even if he did have a white belt, we wouldn't be able to see it. Is
13 that your conclusion?
14 A. That is my conclusion.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, then. Let me ask you
16 another question concerning military uniforms, although it can even be a
17 subject of a PhD thesis. What type of uniform can you see? What kind of
18 uniforms are there?
19 A. There were lots of uniforms. Some of them I had seen for the
20 first time at checkpoints, for example, people wearing uniforms. I could
21 tell by the insignia, the Sao Krajina insignia, Knin. That is what it
22 said on the patches. People wore different uniforms, and sometimes they
23 weren't -- they didn't have one complete uniform. They would have part of
24 one, part of another.
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So it was possible for a
1 policeman to have the upper part of one uniform and the lower part, that
2 is, the trousers of a different type of uniform? Is that what you're
4 A. Yes, that happened very often. They probably didn't have enough
5 complete sets of uniforms. That was my conclusion.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.
7 Did you know anyone, anyone whom you knew very well and who wore a
9 A. Yes.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] For example?
11 A. Jovo Sipka, for example, who saved my life in the hospital. He
12 was a member of the Special Police, and he was there in hospital, and
13 nobody could be released from the hospital without his permission.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What was the type of uniform
15 that he wore?
16 A. He wore the same type of uniform as the man on the photograph.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And did you know to which unit
18 or which organisation he belonged?
19 A. Yes, he introduced himself. He said he was a member of the
20 military police, and I gave him a statement on two occasions, to
21 him and his colleague whose name I cannot remember at the moment.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Did you know any other
23 individual who wore a uniform which did not belong -- which was not the
24 typical uniform of his function?
25 A. Well, I couldn't, couldn't tell you that now. It is possible, but
1 I don't remember. It was a long time ago.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you. I think the issue
3 has now been clarified as regards uniforms.
4 Mr. Ganic, I don't think we have any further questions for you.
5 Thank you very much for having testified before the International Criminal
6 Tribunal. We understand that you have been through a terrible ordeal,
7 but we hope that you will have a happy life from now on. We wish you safe
8 journey back to your place of residence, and let me ask the usher to show
9 you out of the courtroom.
10 A. Thank you very much, Your Honours.
11 [The witness withdrew]
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Keegan, thank you for your
14 MR. KEEGAN: My pleasure, Your Honour. Your Honour, at this time
15 we'd move for admission of Prosecution Exhibits 1/139A and B, 3/140A and
16 B, 3/141A and B, and 3/142A, B, C, and D, that being the photo board and
17 the reports.
18 In addition, Your Honour, we would request that Exhibit 3/142C be
19 placed under seal on the basis of some location information contained
21 I also have some additional exhibits I'd like to offer at
22 this time, Your Honour. I don't know if you want me to offer them first
23 on have the Defence indicate whether they have an objection to this first
24 group that I've already mentioned.
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Those are new documents,
1 Mr. Keegan?
2 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour, they are.
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So it would be preferable to
4 solve the issue of this first group of documents and ask if there are any
5 objections by the Defence.
6 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour, please.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Usher, can you help
8 Mr. Keegan.
9 MR. KEEGAN: Would Your Honour like me to address each of these
10 documents now?
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, please. I think that it's
12 a good idea to have a little description of the documents because we
13 haven't seen them, but I think that you already have a number.
14 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour. The first document is marked
15 3/143A and B, A being the English translation, B being the original
16 language, Serbo-Croatian. It's a request for additional investigation
17 from the military court in Banja Luka regarding an allegation that Zoran
18 Zigic did kill Omer Karagic while in the Mladen Stojanovic medical centre
19 in Prijedor on 24 July 1992, by stabbing him in the area of the heart with
20 a knife. It is titled from the military Prosecution at the military post
21 Banja Luka 7001, military post signifying the unit identification at that
22 time, Your Honour.
23 The second document is 3/144, A being the English translation and
24 B being the original language, Serbo-Croatian. It is a criminal report to
25 the military prosecutor's office of the 1st Krajina Corps regarding this
1 same event, that is, the killing of -- or in this case wounding of Omer
2 Karagic by stabbing him in the heart and killing him instantly, against
3 Zoran Zigic. It's signed by Colonel Vladimir Arsic who was the commander
4 of the 43rd Motorised Brigade in Prijedor at that time.
5 3/145, A being the English translation, B being the original
6 language, is again a criminal report against Zoran Zigic and Mladen
7 Dosen, the report being submitted to the military prosecutor's office,
8 and this criminal report is in relation to crimes committed by Zoran Zigic
9 and Mladen Dosen against Edin Ganic and his family members and his
10 neighbours on the 19th of August, 1992, those events being that described
11 by the witness earlier today. This report, again, is signed by Colonel
12 Vladimir Arsic, the commander of the military brigade in Prijedor at the
14 Ant final document is 3/146, A again being the English language
15 translation and B being the original language, Serbo-Croatian. This is
16 the request from the military prosecutor's office in Banja Luka to the
17 military court in Banja Luka, a request for the commencement of an
18 investigation against Zoran Zigic and Mladen Dosen for crimes committed in
19 the afternoon of 19 August 1992, against Mara Kusunic and Edin Ganic
20 and other members of their family. The investigation includes a
21 description of the jewellery and money which was taken from the Ganics and
22 refers to the crimes involved.
23 We would submit those documents for admission into evidence, along
24 with the other. These documents were all seized by members of the Office
25 of the Prosecutor pursuant to search warrants issued by the International
1 Criminal Tribunal.
2 JUDGE WALD: Mr. Keegan, could I just ask you to explain what the
3 purpose or what you want them admitted for? For what purpose do you want
4 them admitted?
5 MR. KEEGAN: For the corroboration of the witnesses, Your Honour.
6 We believe they corroborate both Edin Ganic and his father, Husein Ganic.
7 JUDGE WALD: Not for the truth of all the things that are in that?
8 MR. KEEGAN: No. For the corroboration of the events and, of
9 course, the fact that they reflect that official action was taken against
10 Mr. Zigic with respect to these incidents which the witnesses described,
11 by the authorities in the area.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Have you finished, Mr. Keegan?
13 MR. KEEGAN: I have, Your Honour, thank you.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The Defence, there is this
15 request by the Prosecutor to admit into evidence the documents, 139 to
16 142, and 143 to 146 in the second group.
17 Mr. Simic, Krstan Simic, are you speaking in your own name or on
18 behalf of all of you?
19 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I am speaking on
20 behalf of the Defence team as a whole, except for Mr. Stojanovic, the
21 counsel for Mr. Zigic, because he's in a special situation. However, the
22 documents are relevant -- the documents are not relevant for, for all of
23 us, so I will give Mr. Stojanovic the opportunity to raise the objection
24 on his behalf.
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So Mr. Stojanovic is going to
1 speak about all of the documents?
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Stojanovic, let us hear you.
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we do not have any
5 objection as regards to documents that were previously submitted up to and
6 including the number 142, I believe. However, as regards these new
7 documents, we believe that we -- it will be of the assistance to the
8 Court if we ask Mr. Keegan the following question: He's offering initial
9 preliminary documents in a criminal proceedings; however, we should like
10 to ask him whether he knows anything about the completion of those
11 criminal proceedings, and how the case was actually completed by the
12 Court. What was the final outcome of the case?
13 I even think that one of the documents has not been interpreted in
14 a proper manner. There is a request for a completion of investigation,
15 but it does not concern the murder but tampering with a body.
16 So again, what we have here are initial preliminary documents in a
17 criminal case, and we believe that the outcome of the criminal case was
18 completely different than the beginning. But I think it would be a good
19 idea to hear the Prosecutor state his opinion because we believe that the
20 Prosecutor is fully aware and familiar with the outcome of the case.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Keegan, how do you respond?
22 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour. First of all, I prefer not to
23 testify here in these proceedings, so my personal opinion I don't believe
24 is relevant.
25 We submit these documents for what they indicate on their face.
1 I should indicate to Judge Wald that you asked me the basis, and
2 of course we're submitting for corroboration. Of course, under the rules
3 of the Tribunal, you are certainly at liberty to consider them for the
4 truth of the matters considered therein under our rules, and if you find
5 that they carry sufficient reliability and credibility, you are
6 certainly free to do that.
7 They are obviously official documents from military organisations
8 in Prijedor and Banja Luka. We are submitting them for what they indicate
9 on their face and for the purpose of corroborating the witnesses who have
11 We don't believe that the outcome is stated in these documents,
12 and therefore we're not introducing these documents to prove the ultimate
13 outcome, but simply to indicate that in fact, official investigations were
14 undertaken with respect to this accused, Zoran Zigic, regarding these
15 events that are listed herein.
16 If the Defence would like to present evidence during its case as
17 to what the final outcome was, then they're certainly free to do that.
18 But regardless of what the outcome was, that in no way detracts from the
19 fact that these investigative documents were initiated by the authorities
20 in Prijedor and Banja Luka, and therefore they can be admitted on that
21 basis. And we submit that they are, in fact, sufficient on their face for
22 admission before this Tribunal and for consideration as to the weight for
23 corroboration of the witnesses.
24 JUDGE WALD: Did the Defence know you were going to introduce
1 MR. KEEGAN: They had been provided to the Defence, Your Honour,
3 JUDGE WALD: How much in advance?
4 MR. KEEGAN: I couldn't tell you the exact date, Your Honour. If
5 you'd give me a moment, I can tell you, but they didn't object on that
6 basis. The --
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] We do not dispute that, Your
9 JUDGE WALD: Just for my own edification, they knew about these
10 for at least a couple of days.
11 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour. Yes, Your Honour, they've had
12 these, yes.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We will now have a break. We
15 will think the issue over, and after the break we will make our ruling.
16 Mr. Keegan, what are we going to do now?
17 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour, and before we take the pause, it
18 might be worth discussing it. The Prosecution does not intend to call any
19 further witnesses today. We filed this morning with the registry a motion
20 for admission of the statement of the investigator, Tariq Malik, for
21 consideration in conjunction with the reports of the experts which were
22 submitted pursuant to Rule 94 bis (C). The purpose of that statement was
23 for the investigator to explain the linkages between the forensic evidence
24 which was examined by the different types of experts.
25 The Defence has agreed to this procedure, and that is reflected
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the English
14 and French transcripts
1 within the motion. I have copies here available for the Chamber if they
2 would like to review it now, since you may not have been given a copy of
3 the filed version yet.
4 With the consent of the Defence, Your Honour, on this issue --
5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
6 MR. KEEGAN: With the consent of the Defence on this issue, the
7 Prosecutor therefore decided not to call Mr. Malik this afternoon but,
8 rather, to begin with new witnesses who are scheduled to start on Monday,
9 and we will call Mr. Malik at the end of next week with respect to the
10 question of proof of death of some of the named victims which are referred
11 to in the indictment and in the schedules; and in addition, to offer some
12 particular exhibits in order to give the Chamber an idea of the import of
13 those particular exhibits which are not necessarily ready apparent on
14 their face. This has all been previously discussed with the Defence, and
15 we have their consent on this approach. So therefore, we would not intend
16 to call any further evidence today.
17 I would note that as indicated in the motion, we believe
18 that it would be appropriate to consider Mr. Malik's statement in
19 conjunction with the experts under Rule 94(C), but even if the Chamber is
20 minded not to consider it pursuant to Rule 94(C), certainly under Rule 54
21 the Chamber would have the authority to consider the statement for
22 assistance as evidence, as a more expeditious way to proceed with the
24 Thank you, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So we have no work for this
1 afternoon; is that what you're telling us? That's really a luxury,
2 Mr. Keegan.
3 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour. I know we all have a lot of other
4 work, so there will be nothing, at least from the Prosecution, with
5 respect to the hearing this afternoon.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, we have a lot of other
7 things to attend to, but we really want to finish this case, your case,
8 on the 6th of October. Please do not forget that, Mr. Keegan, but we
9 accept your suggestion.
10 The ruling regarding the exhibits will be made on Monday. We were
11 very lucky today; we have some additional time off to finish other work
12 that we have. We'll see each other again on Monday, 9.30.
13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12:56 p.m.,
14 to be reconvened on Monday, the 2nd day of October,
15 2000, at 9.30 a.m.