Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6991

1 Tuesday, 23 January 2001

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.23 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated. Good

6 morning. Good morning to the technical booth and the interpreters; good

7 morning to the registry, the OTP, the Defence counsels. I can see they're

8 all here. Good morning to the accused.

9 We're going to take up the testimony that we started yesterday,

10 and we have reached the stage for the cross-examination by the

11 Prosecution.

12 [The witness entered court]

13 WITNESS: ZDRAVKO SAMARDZIJA [Resumed]

14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Krstan Simic. Is there

16 a problem?

17 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] No problem, Your Honour. Good

18 morning. The problem only lies in the fact that the rest of the Defence

19 teams have a chance to put questions to this witness before the

20 Prosecution goes ahead.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, you're quite right, and I

22 thank you, Mr. Krstan Simic, for bringing that to my attention. I do

23 indeed have to ask the other Defence teams whether they have any questions

24 to ask this witness.

25 Mr. Nikolic.

Page 6992

1 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. The

2 Defence teams do not have any cross-examination of this witness.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Nikolic. And

4 thank you for paying attention.

5 Witness Samardzija, good morning to you.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Let me remind you you're

8 continuing your evidence under oath and will now be answering questions

9 put to you by the Prosecution. I think it is Ms. Somers who is going to

10 cross-examine to you.

11 Ms. Somers, you have the floor.

12 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Your Honours.

13 Cross-examined by Ms. Somers:

14 Q. Mr. Samardzija, has any one of the other accused, either Radic,

15 Kos, Zigic, or Prcac, been brought to your attention for any purpose the

16 way you indicated Kvocka was brought to your attention?

17 A. No.

18 Q. You were asked yesterday twice who headed the Centre for Security

19 Services in Banja Luka where you worked. I am afraid that having reviewed

20 the record, no name was given in response to the question. Would you

21 please tell us what was the name of the individual who headed the Centre

22 for Security Services in Banja Luka at that time?

23 A. At that time, the head of the security services was Mr. Stojan

24 Zupljanin.

25 Q. Stojan Zupljanin you said?

Page 6993

1 A. Yes. I think that I said yesterday that Mr. Stojan Zupljanin

2 signed the documents.

3 Q. Could you tell us, pleases what is the fifth sector. What does

4 that connote?

5 A. It is a sector dealing with training and defence preparations.

6 Q. And that is the sector in which you worked; is that correct?

7 A. Yes, that's right.

8 Q. Whom were you responsible for training?

9 A. I was responsible for the training of officers, line officers at

10 the level of the republic, as well as the head of the sector for state

11 security.

12 Q. How long were you holding the position of being responsible for

13 training these persons, from when to when?

14 A. From 1986 up until the outbreak of the crisis.

15 Q. What date do you fix for the outbreak of the crisis?

16 A. The crisis broke out, that is to say, there were tensions at the

17 end of 1991 already, which was December, that is to say, when they

18 included me in doing liaison officer work, which was the 15th of December,

19 1991. And quite a long time before that representatives of the European

20 Community were in the field as monitors.

21 Q. From what point were these persons in the European Community in

22 the field, please?

23 A. Well, I can't tell you specifically. But I know that according to

24 an agreement, before I became included into these affairs, they visited

25 Banja Luka and the surrounding areas and were put up at the hotel.

Page 6994

1 Q. Well, can you give us a month and a year, perhaps?

2 A. It was in 1991; I think it was sometime in mid-1991. I was not

3 involved in those activities so much before I was actually assigned the

4 task.

5 Q. So much, but you had some involvement with the European Community

6 that was present at the time?

7 A. Yes, but only as of December 1991. Up until then, I had no

8 contacts whatsoever.

9 Q. Can you tell us, please, some of the names of the persons with

10 whom you dealt in the European Community?

11 A. I can't give you the precise names, but there was a representative

12 from Greece, I recall, that is to say, I could recognise him. Then there

13 was a representative from Sweden. And I contacted directly with Major

14 Guseinov from the Soviet Union, with Carlos from Venezuela. And then

15 there was Abdulah Babu from -- let me just try to remember where he was

16 from. He was from -- he was a major, I know that much. Yes, he was from

17 Malaysia. And I think that in their reports, they noted down that they

18 had had contacts with me. I did not make a note of the others. But I did

19 take round representatives, I think it was, of the Red Cross. I took them

20 to Manjaca where they looked at how the situation was there and prepared

21 the transportation of the individuals who were there.

22 Q. Excuse me for --

23 A. I also --

24 Q. Excuse me for interrupting you. We're talking December 1991.

25 Your contacts with the International Community representatives --

Page 6995

1 A. No, no.

2 Q. -- can you tell me, please, with whom you dealt and for what

3 purpose in December 1991?

4 A. In December 1991, we were given the assignment -- that is to say,

5 several colleagues and myself were told to be liaison officers, that is to

6 say, to ensure contacts with individuals who were representing

7 international organisations. They had their own interpreters. I can't

8 remember their names. But their interpreters would ask us for the people

9 that they would like to contact, and then it was my job as the liaison

10 officer to ensure that they had contacts with representatives of the

11 municipality or the president of the municipality, with the religious

12 organisations, with representatives of military units, so on and so

13 forth.

14 Q. In fact, do you recall an order in January 1992 actually

15 appointing you to handle these matters as liaison officer? Was there not

16 such an order handed to you?

17 A. No, I had no official order. But it was probably one of the

18 documents that were issued. I think that this was linked with contacts to

19 the command of the 1st Krajina Corps.

20 Q. Who was it who put you in this liaison position? Name the

21 official, please.

22 A. I was appointed by the head of the centre, Mr. Stojan Zupljanin,

23 as far as I know.

24 Q. Did he personally tell you, or was it handed down to you by word

25 of mouth and you just showed up one day as a liaison officer?

Page 6996

1 A. Well, it was handed down. I think that the chief of the sector

2 told me that I had been designated for the job. But all the equipment

3 that we had was issued by the centre.

4 Q. Your work in the -- what you have described as communications and

5 encryption, that would include, would it not, the interception of

6 communications, wiretapping, bugging? That would be part of your

7 function, would it not?

8 A. No.

9 Q. The nature of the CSB was essentially an intelligence service

10 insofar as your work was concerned, was it not? The functions in which

11 you were engaged were information gathering, were they not?

12 A. The function that I was concerned with was to train people for

13 jobs of that kind, but there is a separate department for the kinds of

14 activities that you have enumerated. I did not work on matters of that

15 kind, that is to say, direct contact, but my work was to train reservists

16 and active-duty people in these protection devices and other things

17 concerning operative work.

18 Q. Protection devices. What type of protection devices?

19 A. Well, it was a system used for coding, for encryption. There is a

20 set technology. Technical -- I don't think that this is an unknown

21 subject. You have to prepare the document on the basis of certain

22 existing tables, and it was necessary to train people to do this in a

23 precise manner and not to make errors.

24 Q. In the communications aspect of what you described as your job,

25 what did that entail?

Page 6997

1 A. That meant the use of communication devices, that is to say, to

2 explain to people how they are used, how they are handled, and the

3 preparations necessary for operating these devices.

4 Q. What types of communications devices, telephones, telephone

5 receiver sets? Please explain.

6 A. There was a one-way link and a two-way link and radio receivers

7 along that communication line, so that's what I did.

8 Q. You eventually became head of that department. How did your

9 functions change insofar as training and fieldwork once you became head of

10 that department? And when did you become head of that department,

11 please?

12 A. I didn't actually become head of that department but the next

13 department, the other department that had concrete assignments and jobs,

14 and that was sometime in 1995.

15 Q. Sorry. Perhaps I misunderstood your testimony yesterday when

16 Mr. Simic asked you:

17 "Q. Did you later become head of that department?"

18 referring to communications and encryption, and your answer was:

19 "A. Yes."

20 Would you like to correct that and explain?

21 A. Yes, I would like to correct that because we -- we keep changing;

22 that is to say, the departments changed, although they are similar within

23 the frameworks of the department and linked to crypto-protection. But

24 there are two lines, actually, 04 and another line that was linked firmly

25 to crypto-protection. I continued in the crypto-protection professional

Page 6998

1 section, and so being head of that section, I became head of the other one

2 which had to do with the application of measures.

3 Q. The type of assistance that you indicated Mr. Drljaca requested of

4 you you called operative technical cover. "Operative" was explained as

5 all measures at the disposal of the State Security Service. You were, in

6 fact, an operative of that service. Can you tell us, please, your

7 operative number?

8 A. Well, I can't remember the number just now.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. Krstan Simic is on his

10 feet.

11 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour. I do not

12 know the purpose of this line of questioning, whether it is to determine

13 the structure of the state security system, or is it linked to the subject

14 of our trial?

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers, your response,

16 please.

17 MS. SOMERS: Yes, Your Honour. This is to explore areas that

18 would indicate whether or not there was any substance to what was said

19 about the requests toward Mr. Kvocka and whether or not it is a matter

20 that -- from which any inferences on credibility can be drawn.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Krstan Simic.

22 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, a short reply. The

23 witness said that Mr. Drljaca was in the police as a layman - and I

24 explained this - and Mr. Drljaca went back to the liaison officer whom he

25 knew was doing this kind of work in order to -- for him to be able to

Page 6999

1 ensure what Mr. Drljaca has asked the witness to do, and he acted as a

2 policeman. I don't see what there is to ascertain or what could bring

3 into question the credibility of the witness.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. But at any rate, I think

5 that the Prosecutor is trying to explain some of the terms that were used

6 yesterday, and if you take a look, "an operative" was, I think one of the

7 words used yesterday, and the Prosecutor is trying to establish what is

8 implied by that term. So I will allow the Prosecutor to continue with her

9 questioning.

10 MS. SOMERS:

11 Q. You expressed yesterday some opinions or some impressions of yours

12 about Simo Drljaca. I'll explore those in a moment, but I'd like to ask

13 you, before I do that, the name of one individual. Ljuban Ecim. Do you

14 know that person?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And who was Ljuban Ecim, please?

17 A. He was the deputy head of the centre at one period of time;

18 otherwise, he worked in the passport department.

19 Q. You expressed some concern over the professionalism, as it were,

20 of Mr. Drljaca based on his wearing Adidas sneakers when he sought you out

21 in Banja Luka. What particular relevance could dress have on a person's

22 professionalism?

23 A. That is not actually relevant. What was relevant was that the

24 gentleman, on one occasion when I saw him in an official facility, he was

25 wearing these white Adidas sneakers and so was not dressed in keeping with

Page 7000

1 his rank, because I'd never seen the head of a police station dressed in

2 that way before on official premises. So those were just my impressions.

3 It was just an impression I gained, nothing special.

4 Q. From your testimony, it is clear that Simo Drljaca expressly and

5 specifically sought you out. Now, this is the same Simo Drljaca who was

6 indicted by this Tribunal for genocide and who died while resisting, with

7 violence, the arrest for those charges. This is the same person? Are we

8 talking about the same person?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. The information that he passed on to you about suspicions of

11 unreliability as to Serbs, you did not act on; that is correct? There was

12 no action taken by you in instituting a wiretap or any other kind of

13 intercept means; am I right?

14 A. Yes, but you're mixing up things here. I said that I met him in a

15 rather unusual spot, that is to say, Mr. Simo Drljaca. We happened to

16 meet by chance; he didn't seek me out. We met by chance in the cafe,

17 there were other people present, and that is why I said it was an

18 unprofessional attitude, because he spoke, perhaps, under the influence of

19 alcohol. He said what he said under the influence of alcohol, and that's

20 why I said it was not professional. I told him to contact the chief, who

21 would then see to the matter. He seemed to mix things up himself because

22 I wasn't actually working on jobs of that kind.

23 Q. I don't recall alcohol mentioned yesterday. Can you tell how you

24 would know that he had been drinking?

25 A. Well, it is customary for everybody in a cafe to have a drink. I

Page 7001

1 don't know how much he had because I joined the table of people already

2 there. And I said what I said to, perhaps, justify his behaviour, to

3 explain it.

4 Q. Nonetheless, it appears from the numerous documents which have

5 been admitted before this Chamber and with which they are familiar that

6 security and loyalty and reliability were very much prerequisites for

7 positions in the structure of that particular parastate. Can you please

8 indicate what you did to follow up on accusations about --

9 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Krstan Simic.

11 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] My learned colleague has made a

12 whole introduction which is leading for the question she wishes to ask,

13 and she wishes to bring into question the affiliation of the witness to a

14 paramilitary state, although the witness clearly said that he was a

15 policeman from the first day and that the police continued going about its

16 business after this portion of the Serbian -- that is to say, when

17 Bosnia-Herzegovina came under the control of the Serbs, he continued with

18 his job.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers.

20 MS. SOMERS: Thank you. First of all, yes, I certainly am

21 leading; that is my right on cross-examination.

22 Secondly, the reference was not to a paramilitary state. If it is

23 incorrect, it should be "parastate," in my words, not "paramilitary." So

24 if the record is incorrect -- if it is incorrect, I ask it to be

25 corrected. And this, of course, is --

Page 7002

1 JUDGE RIAD: No, it is written parastate here.

2 MS. SOMERS: Yes, this is what I thought, parastate. And I would

3 fully want to explore the type of allegation that was made. I think that

4 is the guts of what was being brought in direct examination and we must

5 certainly find out about it.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Ms. Somers. Could you put

7 the question in a different way, without leading and without including

8 your own judgements? So ask the question you want to ask but without

9 including your own opinion. Whether it's a parastate or paramilitary,

10 that's another question. Just go ahead with your question.

11 MS. SOMERS:

12 Q. For the entity in which you were working at the time, the

13 documents as well as testimony have indicated that loyalty and reliability

14 in Serbs was a great concern.

15 Now, can you indicate, please, when there is a challenge, as you

16 have said there was, to the reliability of an individual who was holding a

17 significant police position, what did you do about it?

18 A. First of all, the question goes outside my own domain. Let me say

19 again that at that time I was not working on those jobs so I can't

20 actually tell you. All I can tell you is what I know about and what is

21 connected to the case when Mr. Simo Drljaca requested me to do something

22 which was not within my competency.

23 Q. Well, I would like to ask you just to take a quick look at a

24 document which is in evidence.

25 MS. SOMERS: It bears the Prosecution's and Registry's exhibit

Page 7003

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12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

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Page 7004

1 number of 2/2.7. We have copies for the Bench. If we could turn to page

2 2. Again, it was 2/2.7, a document dated 20 May 1992, from the Banja Luka

3 Security Services Centre.

4 Q. I would ask you to turn your attention to the English page 2 and

5 paragraph 5, please. Now, this document is issued by Stojan Zupljanin,

6 your then chief. The paragraph says:

7 "We have to identify in time those among us who are involved in

8 criminal activities and we must take rigorous steps against them

9 (immediately commence disciplinary proceedings)."

10 You did not know, did you, what the essence of the unreliability

11 was. Did you?

12 A. Well, I know what unreliability means. But for that to be proved,

13 there must be some documentation and some facts which bear that out, which

14 prove it.

15 Q. You took no measures to further find out if there were any

16 substance to the allegations --

17 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Simic.

19 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness answered

20 this question twice quite definitively; that is to say, at the time when

21 the request or proposal came to him from Mr. Drljaca, it was not within

22 his competency, and that he then informed his seniors thereof.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Somers.

24 MS. SOMERS: Your Honours, as much as I am sure that counsel wants

25 to bring these points up, I think it is more important that the witness

Page 7005

1 himself tell us what happened. In fact, there was not much exploration at

2 all into what he did or didn't do about the allegations other than to say

3 he passed on to a superior. The outcome of this was never explored, and I

4 think it is absolutely essential for this Chamber to know what was done,

5 given the background to the sanctions that could be worked upon someone

6 who perhaps was involved in such behaviour or against whom such suspicions

7 may have been lodged. The relevance, I think, is very, very evident.

8 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] A brief reply, if I may, Your

9 Honour.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Simic.

11 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in the police force,

12 there is a clear-cut chain of command, and in no police force in the world

13 does the superior inform his subordinates what measures have been taken,

14 especially when it comes to state security, where the system is a closed

15 one and confidential and where the staff hide information from each

16 other.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. But there are no

18 problems. If the Prosecutor has asked the question, the witness must

19 answer to the best of his ability. So please go ahead with the question.

20 The question is whether the superior informed him or not, and the witness

21 can give a simple answer.

22 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, if I can go back, I think we may have

23 lost our continuity. But the question is:

24 Q. Was any action taken? After you yourself made a decision that it

25 was not within your competency, you passed it up to superiors. What

Page 7006

1 action was taken to investigate this? What was the outcome, please?

2 A. I said yesterday that unofficially, that is to say, over a cup of

3 coffee, I learnt that there were certain activities linked to the requests

4 made, and they were assessed as being too broad and not technically

5 feasible. So I think that that is a clear definition. But I was not

6 supposed to know that officially.

7 Q. Who made the assessment, please? You can tell us.

8 A. It was a conversation with the man who worked on those matters at

9 the time.

10 Q. Name, please.

11 A. Well, I think it is quite sufficient for me to say that it was a

12 man involved in those matters, and in principle, it is a state secret. I

13 know his name, if necessary, but I don't think it is necessary to bandy

14 about names because it was an unofficial conversation over a cup of

15 coffee, and the information, the comments he made, was the comment that

16 Simo Drljaca had asked more than could be realistically accomplished with

17 respect to the men at our disposal and the technological means, but he

18 said that unofficially.

19 Q. If you were sitting and having a cup of coffee and someone said

20 that there was an assassination attempt against Stojan Zupljanin in the

21 works, would you act on that?

22 A. It is quite normal that I would take steps to protect the head of

23 the centre if I was able to do so at that given moment in time.

24 Q. Let me make sure I understand this. It is your evidence that the

25 only time you ever heard of Kvocka, the accused, was when you were asked,

Page 7007

1 as you claim, by Drljaca to tap his conversations? That is the only

2 time?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. I would like to move on, please, to another area that you

5 discussed, your UN and EC mission liaison work. You alluded to some of

6 your obligations this morning. Would you tell us, please, how long did

7 you continue to work in the capacity as liaison officer?

8 A. Well, officially I worked as a liaison officer until April or

9 thereabouts, but even after that, the head of the centre used my services

10 in some situations because I knew English, so that practically I was used

11 in such context as long as I worked there, whenever it was necessary to

12 make a contact or to meet with international representatives.

13 Q. Then can we at least establish that throughout the year 1992, you

14 either officially by assignment or through approval of your superior or

15 superiors were the liaison, be it officer or other title, to the UN and EC

16 missions on behalf of your organisation? Is that correct?

17 A. Yes. And I should add that I contacted not only with the UN but

18 also I was in charge of contact with the Catholic church, and I had

19 specific tasks to ensure the organisation of the visit of the Bishop to --

20 Mr. Franjo Komarica of Banja Luka. I had direct contacts with Mr. Franjo

21 Komarica and his secretary.

22 Q. Two names from the international community. Could you tell me if

23 you're familiar with them? Ian Blair, and a Mr. Barney. I don't know if

24 it's first or last name, but Barney. Do you recall those names?

25 A. I cannot remember. And we find it difficult to remember foreign

Page 7008

1 names. I, for instance, remembered Abdulah Babu because it's a peculiar

2 name. I also remember the name of Mr. Guseinov because it -- I associate

3 it with the name of the caterpillar in our language, but, otherwise, I

4 find it difficult to remember foreign names. I have to make associations

5 to do this, and I have to have several contacts with the person before I

6 remember the name.

7 Q. And this is despite your fluency in English which is one of the

8 bases for your being selected? You don't remember the names of Ian --

9 whatever names I gave you, they're not familiar?

10 A. Possibly.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Somers, the witness has

12 already answered.

13 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Your Honour. I'll move on.

14 Q. I want to clarify some points that were a bit unclear in the

15 transcript. You indicated that you knew Simo Drljaca, Prijedor, through

16 the contacts that were made while you were representing -- you were acting

17 as liaison officer to representatives of international humanitarian

18 organisations which were going to Prijedor after dismantling of camps. Do

19 you recall that?

20 A. I said I had contacts even after that, but I knew Mr. Simo Drljaca

21 also because I heard that he was appointed chief in Prijedor, and he would

22 occasionally come to Banja Luka. He was a man very difficult not to

23 remark and one could not help but remember him.

24 Q. The conversation that we discussed a few minutes ago, you put to a

25 time of first few days of June or middle of June 1992, that is, the

Page 7009

1 conversation between you and Mr. Drljaca, according to your evidence

2 yesterday. Is that still accurate?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. I'd just like to present a document of 31 August 1992. It is

5 Prosecution's Exhibit -- it may be 28 August 1992. It concerns the

6 closing of the camps.

7 MS. SOMERS: I apologise to the Chamber. We thought we had

8 everything lined up so well. It would be 28 August. It would have been

9 2/3.39, dated 28 August. It should be in the pile of documents which was

10 handed to each of the Judges.

11 Q. There are, in fact, two communications in this exhibit. The first

12 is a confirmation signed by Simo Drljaca - since your English is okay, I

13 trust you have no problem reading it - indicating that "there are no

14 camps, prisons, or collection centres on the territory of the Prijedor

15 municipality." That is August 24, 1992.

16 The same date, the second document that is attached, the document

17 of -- excuse me, confirming some of the facts, but if you would turn to

18 the document signed by Stojan Zupljanin, it also refers -- and is a

19 24 August 1992 document. It also acknowledges certain facts about the

20 camp.

21 I want to make sure that you knew that as of the 28th or perhaps

22 even the 24th of August, 1992, certain camps had been closed. That

23 included Omarska and Keraterm. Would you agree with that?

24 A. I cannot answer this question, considering that I had not been in

25 Omarska or Keraterm. I think you could not draw a conclusion to the

Page 7010

1 contrary from any of my statements.

2 Q. However, will you agree that the CSB in Banja Luka had

3 responsibility for the territory on which Omarska camp and Keraterm --

4 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Simic.

6 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] My learned colleague, Your Honours,

7 is asking for a conclusion about the responsibility of an entire body,

8 whereas he was only an official of that body. He became head of the

9 department only in 1995. He never was either in Omarska or Keraterm.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please ask your question,

11 Ms. Somers, in a way, because this witness has come to answer questions

12 about the organisation.

13 MS. SOMERS:

14 Q. Do you know whether or not the organisation for which you were

15 working at the time had jurisdiction over the territories on which

16 Keraterm and Omarska was located?

17 A. I don't know exactly how it was agreed, but judging by these

18 communications, which I have not examined, it is obvious that there was a

19 chain of command during the war, but I cannot say anything definitively

20 because I was not a member of that particular centre.

21 It is clear that each SUP had responsibility towards the local

22 community and towards their superiors on the higher level. So it's very

23 difficult to distinguish.

24 Q. Are you telling us that you did not know of the existence, during

25 the period of operation, of Omarska and Keraterm camps?

Page 7011

1 A. I did not have any contacts with or access to those locations, so

2 I cannot answer this. I cannot make any statements.

3 Q. Did any of the representatives of the International Community whom

4 you were tasked to work with ever ask to see those camps while they were

5 in operation, prior to the end of August 1992?

6 A. I have already told you that all requests addressed to me by the

7 interpreters of international representatives, I have tried to comply with

8 them, and they mainly had to do with the territory of Banja Luka and the

9 territory of Eastern Slavonia.

10 Q. However, you said that Prijedor was on your route because you had

11 contacts that were made while you were working with the internationals

12 there. Did you tell them that there were camps such as Omarska and

13 Keraterm, even if they didn't ask?

14 A. Well, I never discussed it at all, nor had anybody ever asked me

15 this. I have already said that the most remotest point I ever visited was

16 Trnopolje, and in the direction of Banja Luka I went as far as Manjaca.

17 Perhaps some other liaison officer or other persons in charge of Protocol

18 had such discussions.

19 Q. Perhaps you can explain then why you accompanied these

20 internationals to Prijedor when camps were dismantled and not when camps

21 were operational.

22 A. I don't think you understood me correctly. I wasn't in Prijedor.

23 I went to Trnopolje. And I said that in the period when I had contacts

24 with international representatives, I did not take them to Keraterm or to

25 Trnopolje or to Omarska.

Page 7012

1 Q. Can you recall specifically if any of the internationals were from

2 the ICRC?

3 A. I think that there was a team from the ICRC whom I took to

4 Trnopolje and there was also another team which went to Manjaca. I think

5 it was the International Red Cross, although, they have those difficult

6 abbreviations, acronyms, which I find difficult to remember. There are

7 three letters used in various combinations, and I cannot say clearly to

8 which organisation they belonged because I wasn't particularly

9 interested.

10 Q. Let's move on, please. The June 1992 time frame when you were

11 discussing, when you showed -- actually, you used that time frame to refer

12 to Trnopolje and Manjaca. The activities that were taking place in

13 territories neighbouring Prijedor during June 1992, let us talk about them

14 for a moment.

15 You worked with Stojan Zupljanin. Do you know Slobodan

16 Zupljanin?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And what, if any, relationship is he to Stojan Zupljanin?

19 A. I think they are relatives and not very close relatives at that,

20 but I cannot be sure. I heard something to that effect.

21 Q. He's his brother, is he not?

22 A. I cannot say really because I don't know that. Maybe he's a

23 cousin or a brother of his relatives, but I don't think that they're

24 brothers, they're really brothers.

25 Q. Is this the same Slobodan Zupljanin who in June 1992 was a Captain

Page 7013

1 in the 22nd Light Mountain Brigade, the person you know?

2 A. I cannot say in which unit he served because I had no occasion to

3 learn about that personally.

4 Q. On the 11th of June, 1992, there was a Serb takeover of power in

5 Kotor Varos, was there not?

6 A. Yes.

7 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Simic.

9 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Kotor Varos is a

10 municipality located 70 kilometres away from Prijedor. You arrive in

11 Banja Luka, then you go to Celinac, which is a different municipality, and

12 only then on to Kotor Varos. I happen to know Mr. Zupljanin, and he is

13 from Kotor Varos, and I really see no connection between the brigade which

14 was in Kotor Varos, deployed in Kotor Varos, and the case which has to do

15 with Omarska.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers.

17 MS. SOMERS: Yes, Your Honour. First of all, if the Court would

18 permit the map to be distributed. It is in your pile of documents. It is

19 2/1.1. It is, of course, part of the communities that were involved in

20 the overall Serb takeover of communities. It is under the territory of

21 the CSB, which was the employer of this witness and, in fact, if the CSB,

22 if the Court will permit me to continue my examination, had direct

23 involvement in this takeover as did the witness on that day. Therefore,

24 the witness's credibility and his activities during the time period that

25 he has spoken about yesterday must be explored.

Page 7014

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What is the purpose of this line

2 of questioning, Ms. Somers?

3 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, this individual has told us about

4 certain activities and about his competencies during the time period

5 relevant to this indictment and has made certain representations about his

6 role in the CSB, which is very, very important to understanding whether or

7 not he can be believed as to any other facts for which he was brought

8 before the Chamber. I would like to have the opportunity to explore his

9 role in a takeover of the municipality that occurred during the time

10 period when he said he was otherwise engaged.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Go ahead. Please sit

12 down, Mr. Krstan Simic.

13 MS. SOMERS:

14 Q. This Court has heard very much testimony and has seen

15 documentation about the takeover, the Serb takeover, of other

16 municipalities and specifically Prijedor in 1992. Now, in a manner

17 similar, you acknowledge that Kotor Varos was taken over on the 11th of

18 June, 1992.

19 Can you tell us, please, or comment: Certain non-Serbs who were

20 arrested in Kotor Varos on that day have identified Slobodan Zupljanin as

21 the commander of the military units which were stationed in Kotor Varos

22 already before the takeover. Do you have any knowledge of this? Can you

23 confirm?

24 A. I cannot confirm who was the military commander because I was a

25 member of the police.

Page 7015

1 Q. These non-Serbs who were arrested in Kotor Varos on the 11th have

2 identified you, Zdravko Samardzija as the commander of the Serb units

3 which came into Kotor Varos on the 11th of June and they described your

4 command as over special units. Can you comment, please?

5 A. I think this statement is not accurate because I was in Kotor

6 Varos. I was in the unit also as a liaison officer, and the chain of the

7 command in the unit is quite clear. There is the commander, deputy

8 commander, and I don't fit into any of those positions.

9 Q. Two of the non-Serbs that were arrested that day described you,

10 Zdravko Samardzija, as wearing a camouflage hat and the units wearing red

11 berets. They said that you introduced yourself as Zdravko Samardzija, a

12 lawyer from Banja Luka. Do you have any recollection of that incident or

13 those incidents?

14 A. Yes, that is true, I introduced myself as Zdravko Samardzija

15 because, pursuant to the regulations, I was doing my duty and there was no

16 reason for me not to identify myself.

17 Q. Did you inform any of the internationals from either the UN or the

18 EC mission with whom you were working that you would be carrying out this

19 operation, this takeover of power, on 11 June of 1992.

20 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Krstan Simic, the witness

22 has said that he was liaison officer so he was involved there. What is

23 your objection?

24 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Ms. Somers is asking the question:

25 Did you inform that you would take over power, and the witness has --

Page 7016

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9

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13 English transcripts.

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Page 7017

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The question was: Did you

2 inform the international authorities, the representatives of the

3 International Community. That was my understanding of the question.

4 [In English] "Did you inform any of the internationals from either

5 the UN or the EC mission ..."

6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

7 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] My associate is telling me that the

8 English transcript says what I have just quoted, "that you would be

9 carrying out this operation, this takeover of power." That is what I have

10 been told. Page 24, line 10 of the English transcript.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And, Mr. Krstan Simic?

12 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I believe that such a question

13 cannot be asked.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Somers.

15 MS. SOMERS: Well, I think that is a perfectly legitimate question

16 to ask. This is a man in whom the trust of the International Community to

17 represent the condition in that territory was had. I'd like to know, I

18 think it's fair to know, whether or not -- and their safety, of course, is

19 one of the concerns based on, I'm sure, the functions of the CSB.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The question was:

21 [In English] "Did you inform any of the internationals from either

22 the UN or the EC mission with whom you were working that you would be

23 carrying out this operation ..."

24 [Interpretation] Witness, did you inform them or not?

25 A. First of all, such notification would be contrary to our

Page 7018

1 regulations and laws. Second, I learned about the operation just before

2 it started so none of us had the opportunity to contact anyone whatsoever

3 after receiving that order because we were immediately transferred from

4 our current location to the location from which we would commence the

5 operation.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So the answer is that you did

7 not inform them; is that correct?

8 A. No, no, it was not my obligation to report such things because I

9 had no such agreement with representatives of the International Community

10 about such information being provided.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please continue, Ms. Susan

12 Somers.

13 MS. SOMERS:

14 Q. That would mean that if an international were to have wandered

15 into that territory on that day and met with some type of accidental

16 injury, that would not be your responsibility?

17 A. If that had happened, it would have been our responsibility. Of

18 course we would have taken measures to prevent anything of the kind,

19 because we took great care that nothing should happen to any member of an

20 international organisation. On several occasions, I was in dangerous

21 situations because certain members of international organisations could

22 not drive in an adequate manner in areas where there was shooting. They

23 would drive only 60 kilometres per hour.

24 Q. That means that they would have to know there was shooting,

25 wouldn't it?

Page 7019

1 A. You evidently ask your questions in a very imprecise way. I would

2 like you to specify with regard to what and where. You can receive an

3 answer from me and later put it in a context which has nothing to do with

4 me.

5 Q. I thank you for your guidance. I would like to now ask you about,

6 specifically, what laws and regulations governed the takeover of Kotor

7 Varos, you having just mentioned that notification would have been

8 contrary to said laws and regulations. Please be specific.

9 A. First of all, I said prior notification. At the time when a

10 certain activity has been ordered by the head of the centre, any

11 notification given to outsiders - I think the same applies to your

12 bodies - unless authorised, is subject to disciplinary action and

13 prosecution.

14 Q. Moving on. Another non-Serb victim who was detained at the

15 sawmill following the takeover of Kotor Varos identified you,

16 Mr. Samardzija, as being in charge of that detention facility. Did you

17 inform the UN and the EC of your connection to that particular detention

18 centre in the course of your dealings?

19 A. First of all, I was not in charge of that facility. Those

20 facilities were under the jurisdiction of the local police; the local

21 authorities, therefore. I just interviewed certain persons in connection

22 with the situation which we had been informed about to the effect that

23 Muslim policemen had organised a group of 200 men, under arms, who had

24 abandoned their jobs and left the town.

25 Q. The non-Serb victim from Kotor Varos described your allowing men

Page 7020

1 from your unit to beat him in your presence, and when on the brink of

2 death, instructing your men not to kill him because he was needed for

3 questioning. Can you comment, please, on this? Do you recall the

4 incident?

5 A. I do not recall any such incident. There were incidents when

6 certain members of paramilitary formations entered the area that we were

7 in, that is, the area covered by our station, and engaged in activities

8 that were unlawful, and I warned them every time not to do that. However,

9 under those circumstances, we had very little chance of resisting.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers, I think you

11 must watch the time in view of the time allotted to you.

12 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Your Honours. You have preempted my next

13 comment which is no further questions.

14 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you very much.

16 Mr. Simic.

17 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in view of the fact

18 that my learned friend has opened a number of issues, I have only two

19 questions linked to those that went outside the scope of my

20 examination-in-chief.

21 Re-examined by Mr. K. Simic:

22 Q. Mr. Samardzija, when you said that you were a liaison officer with

23 representatives of international organisations, at the time, were you the

24 authority communicating and taking positions or were you a liaison officer

25 to establish contact with them?

Page 7021

1 A. My duty was to enable contact between them and our authorities so

2 I had no right to intervene in the discussion. Very frequently, I was not

3 even present during those conversations. For instance, when there were

4 talks with military commanders, I usually sat outside. This also happened

5 on a number of occasions when representatives of international

6 organisations wanted to have a tête-à-tête with somebody. I would not

7 attend because my job was simply to bring them safely to a place where

8 they had an appointment with someone; to provide certain services for

9 them; to find the people they wished to have contact with. Usually, it

10 was with the town mayor, representatives of the religious communities, or

11 representatives of the military commands.

12 Q. Mr. Samardzija, have I understood you correctly? In those

13 contacts, you never represented any particular institution of the entity

14 that was then called the Serbian Bosnia-Herzegovina.

15 A. No, I did not represent any institution. I was, as the name says,

16 a liaison officer, a man ensuring contacts and nothing more than that.

17 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no further

18 questions, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Krstan

20 Simic.

21 Judge Fouad Riad.

22 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

23 Questioned by the Court:

24 JUDGE RIAD: Good morning, Mr. Samardzija.

25 A. Good morning.

Page 7022

1 JUDGE RIAD: I would like to have certain points clarified if

2 possible.

3 You mentioned that you were a lawyer, you studied law. Was there

4 any connection between your legal profession, your legal background, and

5 the work you were doing?

6 A. No.

7 JUDGE RIAD: No. Just two minutes ago you told the Prosecutor, or

8 in your conversation with the Prosecutor, it was mentioned that you

9 interviewed certain persons, some 200 Muslims who abandoned their jobs and

10 so on. Were you used sometimes -- did you take over some investigations

11 with arrested people, for instance? Were you an investigator? Being a

12 lawyer, was this job confined to you?

13 A. I did have occasion to engage in interviews of that kind, only

14 rarely, however. In principle, they were just interviews for the purpose

15 of obtaining information. I did not initiate criminal proceedings or

16 undertake any other legal measures. I just had to collect information and

17 pass it on to my superior. This was purely operative work.

18 JUDGE RIAD: Did you do that in some of the concentration centres?

19 A. No.

20 JUDGE RIAD: Where did you do that?

21 A. I engaged in such interviews with a certain number of persons in

22 Kotor Varos.

23 JUDGE RIAD: I would like also to have a clarification concerning

24 this order you got from Simo Drljaca to tap conversations. Was that a

25 current method, as it's done sometimes, you know, in any regime, to tap

Page 7023

1 conversations, or were certain people chosen because people doubted very

2 much their loyalty? Could you tell us if this was just the current

3 method? Although you refused it, as you said. But was this special

4 people? You mentioned Kvocka and others. Was it a minority, limited

5 persons, or was it a general attitude?

6 A. It was limited to a few persons. Especially, as I have already

7 said, the technical possibilities were limited, and it is very difficult

8 to undertake such steps and it is necessary to obtain approval from a much

9 higher level above the centre, even. So it's rather complicated to start

10 such a procedure. It was not a customary procedure to be engaged in

11 lightly, at someone's free will.

12 JUDGE RIAD: Could you refuse an order with impunity and no

13 sanction would happen against you? I mean, in the hierarchy, could

14 anybody refuse an order?

15 A. It was complicated to refuse an order because this necessarily

16 entailed sanctions, because the standard military rule is carry out the

17 order and complain later and the same rule applies to the police.

18 JUDGE RIAD: What happened to you when you refused? I hope

19 nothing.

20 A. I'm afraid you misunderstood me. Mr. Simo Drljaca was never my

21 superior so he could not give me orders. I received orders from the head

22 of the centre who, in the chain of command, came above Simo Drljaca, so I

23 was protected as far as he was concerned. But I could not refuse an order

24 from the head of the centre or from the head of the Defence Department;

25 that would have been rather difficult.

Page 7024

1 JUDGE RIAD: So it was only Drljaca who did not have a good

2 opinion of Mr. Kvocka or who suspected his loyalty, but not the whole

3 system.

4 A. I really don't know what opinions people had as I personally

5 didn't know Mr. Kvocka at all. The gist of this is that we had this

6 conversation and that Mr. Simo Drljaca asked me to do this in the wrong

7 place, addressing the wrong man. So all I could do was tell him how this

8 can be done. According to my unofficial information, he tried to do

9 something officially; but whether he succeeded or not, I don't know.

10 JUDGE RIAD: My last inquiry. You said that the police force had

11 no control over the paramilitary formations. Now, these paramilitary

12 formations were above the law, they ran wild, or were they accountable to

13 somebody?

14 A. Those formations were outside the law because these were locals

15 who were quite aggressive, who were ready to settle accounts, even with

16 regular police officers and members of the army. So it was very difficult

17 to communicate with them.

18 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much. Thank you very much.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

20 Judge Fouad Riad.

21 Judge Wald, please.

22 JUDGE WALD: I have just two questions, and they relate again to

23 the conversation that you had with Mr. Drljaca in the sports club.

24 When he said that he wanted you to investigate the unreliability

25 of Mr. Kvocka or to investigate whether Mr. Kvocka was unreliable, you

Page 7025

1 said earlier, "Well, I knew what that meant." Would you tell us what you

2 did understand "unreliable" to mean in that context according to

3 Mr. Drljaca. Not your own definition, necessarily, but what you

4 understood from the conversation to be unreliable about what. Unreliable

5 in what sense?

6 A. My perception was, at the time, that he was referring to Serbs who

7 were collaborating with persons who had not signed loyalty to Republika

8 Srpska or, at the time, the Republic of Krajina. So the substance of it

9 was that that person did not fit the wishes of Mr. Simo Drljaca.

10 JUDGE WALD: And in that conversation, did Mr. Drljaca give you

11 any specifics? Did he mention anything? "We have reason to doubt

12 Mr. Kvocka's unreliability use of ..." or anything, or he just said

13 "unreliability" on that was kind of a code name for collaborationist with

14 the enemy, as it were?

15 A. Actually, he said that these were persons who were unreliable and

16 who needed to be checked out. He probably had some reasons for that. I

17 didn't inquire into the details. All I did was to say that I was not the

18 person to do that, and I referred him to the competent body within my

19 service.

20 JUDGE WALD: I understand your reaction very well. I just wanted

21 to make sure that before, when he was making his request, he didn't give

22 any specifics, as it were, of why he thought specifically Mr. Kvocka might

23 be unreliable. I gather from what you say that he gave no such

24 specifics. Is that right?

25 A. He said that there were Serbs who were in cohorts with the

Page 7026

1 Muslims. That is what he said. But he didn't say anything specific, to

2 the effect that he had done this or that. His request boiled down to some

3 sort of disobedience. I really don't know what he meant because I really

4 didn't pay much attention, because that was not my line of work.

5 JUDGE WALD: Okay. The second part of the question, the last,

6 is: When your anonymous friend told you later, just conversationally,

7 that nothing had been done because Drljaca's requests were -- you used the

8 word "too broad" and "technologically unfeasible." I understand about the

9 technologically unfeasible part, you didn't have all the necessary

10 technology to do, but when you say your understanding of what your -- the

11 who person who communicated with you said as being too broad, did you take

12 that to mean that Mr. Drljaca just wanted it on too many people or that

13 his definition of the kinds of people that he wanted pursued in

14 investigation was just plain too broad; in other words, his definition of

15 "unreliability" was too all encompassing, took in too many people? Your

16 understanding of what your associate who communicated this to you told

17 you.

18 A. My understanding was that technical problems existed because there

19 are certain pre-conditions. There mustn't be any obstacles in the way

20 which further complicate the technology.

21 JUDGE WALD: I understand that about "technological" and

22 "feasible," but you would use the words "too broad" and "technologically

23 unfeasible." I was interested in what you understood your associate to

24 mean by "too broad."

25 A. I think that what he meant was that too many people would

Page 7027

1 require -- would be required for the job because there would have to be so

2 many workers for collecting information. So if the number of people that

3 Mr. Simo Drljaca wanted to be monitored, then we would have to have twice

4 as many staff. So I think that is what he meant, plus the technical

5 problem.

6 JUDGE WALD: Thank you.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

8 Judge Wald.

9 I too have a couple of questions. You were working in the fifth

10 department, which was also involved in defence preparations, if I

11 understood you correctly.

12 A. Yes.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So one would say that there was

14 a position in the police, the function being state security. So my

15 question is: What exactly were your tasks in terms of information and

16 defence preparations? What was your specific task?

17 A. My specific tasks were to train the members of the reserve force

18 in various skills needed for the police. So as far as training is

19 concerned, this covered 16 municipalities, and I was in charge of that.

20 As I was trained in various disciplines, that was my task. Sometimes the

21 chief of my department would join in and work with me, but I was mostly in

22 charge of that, those activities.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Does that mean that you were, in

24 a sense, the teacher, the instructor?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7028

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Another question. You mentioned

2 on a number of occasions that you had certain liaison tasks with the

3 International Community, and in a response to Mr. Krstan Simic, you said

4 this was because you spoke English that you were a liaison officer. What

5 were your tasks specifically in connection the English language?

6 A. My knowledge of English is not fluent. I am just able to speak it

7 and make myself understood, conveying meanings, simple meanings. I'm not

8 able to correspond in English; I can just converse in English. So that my

9 job was to grasp what it is they needed and to be able to take the

10 necessary steps to meet their requests without needing an interpreter.

11 They frequently had an interpreter with them, but there were

12 occasions when a delegation would come without a proper interpreter. So

13 the interpretation was mostly done by interpreters, and I was just there

14 to arrange contacts and to make sure that those meetings took place

15 without any difficulty.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Should it be understood that

17 there were other liaison officers which dealt more with the substance,

18 with the content?

19 As you say, you were essentially a person for establishing

20 contacts and bringing people together. Were there other people in charge

21 of liaison in the substantive sense?

22 A. I think there were not. I think that all liaison officers had the

23 same status as I did, which means that they could arrange a contact and

24 they would accompany the people to avoid any -- to make sure there were no

25 incidents. But no one had the authority of an official organ to

Page 7029

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Page 7030

1 participate in the discussions.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I should like to go back to this

3 story about your conversation with Simo Drljaca. You said that a certain

4 Simo Miskic was also involved in this conversation. Was he a policeman?

5 A. He was a policeman, but he did not participate in the

6 conversation. He was just mentioned. That is why I remember him, because

7 I know him as a policeman. He used to come to Banja Luka. I saw him on a

8 number of occasions, so I know him from that time period. I found it

9 strange that he should be mentioned among the group of unreliables. I

10 don't know exactly what it was he could have done, but I never conveyed

11 that opinion.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So you knew this person Simo

13 Miskic.

14 A. Yes.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And you knew that he was a

16 policeman.

17 A. Yes.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You have already said that you

19 didn't know Kvocka, but did you know whether he was a policeman or not?

20 A. No, I didn't know, because the gentleman mentioned a list of four

21 or five names without saying what they were. He didn't even say that Simo

22 Miskic was a policeman, but I just happen to know that he was a

23 policeman. So one could assume that these were doubts as to the loyalty

24 of members of the police.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Another point. You said that

Page 7031

1 the name "Kvocka" reminded you of an animal and this helped you to

2 remember the name. Did I understand you correctly?

3 A. Yes.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What is the association that

5 allowed you to say that this happened at the beginning of the month of

6 June? How do you happen to remember that time?

7 A. I had a rather specific situation in my own home. I'd rather not

8 mention any names, but I was coming there for private reasons. So

9 whenever I had some free time, I would go to that cafe for personal

10 reasons.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. You don't need to

12 tell us. But what is the link between that conversation with Simo Drljaca

13 and the other situation? What is the link between the two?

14 A. I'm afraid I didn't quite understand what you mean by "pioneers,"

15 the link with ...

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] There may be a

17 misunderstanding. You said that you remember this conversation, about the

18 beginning of the month of June, because at the time you went there, as far

19 as I understood, a pioneer establishment, for private reasons which you

20 did not wish to enter into or explain.

21 A. I went, for private reasons, to the sports centre because of some

22 personal relations I had with certain individuals.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. I'm asking you what

24 is the link between the two. You remember the name "Kvocka" because you

25 associated it with an animal, the name of an animal, I think you said. I

Page 7032

1 want to know why you are telling us that this happened in the month of

2 June. How did you link the two events together?

3 A. The link is that I have certain associations linked to those dates

4 and a certain person.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Another question.

6 You spoke about the professionalism or, rather, non-professionalism of

7 Simo Drljaca. You mentioned that he was wearing white Adidas sneakers -

8 surely we're not advertising anything now - and also that he was

9 drinking. How do you understand professionalism? How should he behave,

10 in your opinion, as a professional?

11 A. First of all, I didn't say that he had a tendency to drink. I

12 didn't meet with him often to be able to say that. But I saw that there

13 was alcohol on the table, which meant that people were drinking, and I

14 joined in when I came.

15 As for my understanding of professional behaviour or my personal

16 view of it is that an executive must set an example to others. A superior

17 must set an example to others, starting from his clothing, his behaviour,

18 his respect for certain legal norms and standards.

19 We had some very strange behaviour by certain people in those

20 days, which was all the result of the complex situation we were in. One

21 such example was the behaviour of Mr. Simo Drljaca, which I found

22 strange.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you. I think

24 you have just finished your testimony. We wish to thank you very much for

25 coming here, and we wish you a safe return home.

Page 7033

1 I will ask the usher to accompany you out now and thank you.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 [The witness withdrew]

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We're now going to have a

5 half-hour break.

6 Excuse me. We have another witness, don't we? I think we have

7 some small questions to deal with before the next witness, but we'll do

8 that after the break. So a half-hour break now.

9 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

10 --- On resuming at 11.34 a.m.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.

12 Before we introduce the next witness, Mr. Krstan Simic, may we

13 have the documents that you want to tender into evidence.

14 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have already

15 mentioned the documents. They have been assigned numbers. We tabled a

16 sufficient number of copies, and we uphold the request.

17 My assistant has just warned me that document D37/1 has not been

18 admitted, and they are conclusions dated the 11th of May, 1992. The

19 number is 11/12.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I am speaking off the bat, by

21 heart, but I seem to have the impression that the documents yesterday were

22 38 and 39. We gave the number D38 because number D37 had already been

23 admitted.

24 Madam Registrar, what happened to D37? Has it been admitted or

25 not?

Page 7034

1 THE REGISTRAR: No, it has not, Your Honour. It needs to be.

2 This is it.

3 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers, with respect

5 to this document, that is to say, document D37/1, do you have anything to

6 say?

7 MS. SOMERS: If the Chamber will allow me to just take a quick

8 look at it and see if it's one of ours that's just been relabelled. It's

9 already in evidence, Your Honour, as 2/4.22, put in through us.

10 Mr. Saxon has assisted me in --

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Just one moment, please.

12 MS. SOMERS: Sure.

13 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think that the situation is

15 rather complicated. What we can conclude is that the same document will

16 have the number 2/4.22 and another number which is D37/1.

17 Am I right in understanding that the same document has been

18 assigned these two numbers, Madam Registrar?

19 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, you're correct.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Now, we should do everything in

21 our power to avoid one and the same document being assigned one, two,

22 three, or four numbers, because otherwise we're going to have a mix-up.

23 We could have a document with, let us suppose, six numbers because the

24 Prosecution has one number for it and each of the Defence teams have the

25 rest, five other numbers. So let us try to avoid that absurdity when

Page 7035

1 designating numbers to documents.

2 What I understand now is that Mr. Krstan Simic has no further

3 documents to tender; is that correct?.

4 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Just that one and the two

5 documents mentioned yesterday, which were 38 and 39.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.

7 Ms. Susan Somers, I think that you have at least three documents,

8 is that correct, to tender.

9 MS. SOMERS: From today, yes, of course, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Document 2/2.7, 2/3.39, and

11 2/1.1; is that correct?

12 MS. SOMERS: Yes, Your Honour. May I indicate they are in

13 already. They were admitted into evidence --

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, I think there's a problem

15 with the transcript there. We seem on it lagging behind, but we're

16 catching up. We've caught up. Very well.

17 So are those the documents that you see indicated on the screen?

18 The only difference being is that the last document was the map, and it

19 was document 2/1.1.

20 MS. SOMERS: Yes, Your Honour. I just -- that is correct. We

21 just wanted to make sure that the Chamber was aware that these documents

22 had been admitted into evidence in the document collection which preceded

23 the composition of this Chamber with the other Chamber in 1999, and,

24 therefore, some of these come before you now and perhaps you have not had

25 a chance to look at them because they weren't pointed out specifically.

Page 7036

1 If I may, just to try and assist the Chamber, our staff, if we

2 have Friday, would like to meet with the Registry to try to go over some

3 of these documents and where there is duplication, identify, for example,

4 if Defence Exhibit D1.5 is the same as previously exhibited 2 point

5 something. If we can work toward making, at least beginning some type of

6 a chart or list, I think this would assist all parties.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. I think we should

8 look into the question, because the system that we were using was that the

9 documents were presented by the parties with a number for identification,

10 and here we decide whether the document is to be admitted or not.

11 Now, what you are saying to me, I think, Ms. Somers, is that those

12 documents have already been admitted into evidence, tendered. Were they

13 admitted? Yes. So when we present documents in the courtroom, we must

14 distinguish between whether they are new documents and need to be tendered

15 or whether they have already been admitted and we're just making use of

16 the documents. I think that would facilitate matters and we ought to pay

17 attention to the question. As I say, if the documents have already been

18 admitted, then we don't need to discuss the issue.

19 MS. SOMERS: Yes, Your Honour, and we thank you for raising this.

20 If we have in any manner contributed to the confusion, we apologise. I

21 think we used the term "recall" to distinguish from new admission, but if

22 not, we shall do that in the future and indicated clearly that these are

23 admitted and that they're simply recalled.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, but let us pay

25 attention to that. Otherwise, this can lead to confusion, although,

Page 7037

1 confusions are very often useful because we have to clear them up if they

2 exist, but not as the regular order of the day. So as I say, if the

3 documents have already been admitted, then there's no point in discussing

4 it further.

5 Then let us take up our work where we left off, and we come to the

6 introduction of the next witness.

7 Mr. Krstan Simic.

8 MS. SOMERS: Excuse me, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think there is some other

10 point you wish to make.

11 MS. SOMERS: Yes, I think we had asked the registrar if we could

12 just inform the Chamber pursuant to yesterday's inquiry about the status

13 of three matters before the witness comes in. One is the matter of the

14 use of the psyche valuations for the accused Radic. The Chamber

15 reinquired of us if we were willing to accept them or how we wished to

16 proceed.

17 I must inform the Chamber that because of the nature of this

18 evidence, we would clearly need to cross-examine the psychologist or

19 psychiatrist. Other types of expert reports perhaps on a case-by-case

20 basis we might be able to arrive at a -- as I think the Chamber suggested,

21 submitting our own response, a challenge plus our own response, but this

22 type of evidence, in my opinion, is not susceptible of that type of

23 action, so we ask the Chamber -- we simply inform the Chamber of our

24 assessment of the situation.

25 On the Kvocka exhibits, our staff checked, and we have no Defence

Page 7038

1 Exhibit for accused Kvocka above number 55. The list that was submitted

2 to us by Mr. Simic starts higher than that, and we have not had any of

3 those exhibits handed to us for our assessment. As soon as that is done,

4 we will very gladly report back to the Chamber and to counsel about

5 acceptance or not or comments on.

6 And the third matter. We were asked yesterday -- well, we were

7 reminded that we owe a filing on the accused Zigic's motion for lifting

8 the confidentiality, and we anticipate filing that this afternoon. I just

9 wanted to let the Chamber know the status.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, very much, Ms. Susan

11 Somers.

12 I don't know whether Mr. Krstan Simic wishes to inform us matters

13 regarding documents above number 55, beyond number 55.

14 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have disclosed --

15 we shall be presenting them to the opposite side. We thought that they

16 were in agreement in view of the documents that they handed over to us.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. This seems to be a game of

18 ping-pong. Perhaps the Prosecutor has not received sufficient

19 identification with respect to the documents that have been sent it, and

20 maybe -- but perhaps you stem from the idea that the Prosecution already

21 had the documents. Is that right, Mr. Simic?

22 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Well, yes. I will tender the

23 documents tomorrow, and the problem will be solved as far as the Defence

24 is concerned, Your Honour.

25 MS. SOMERS: Thank you.

Page 7039

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. If there are no

2 other outstanding matters, let us move on to the second witness called by

3 the Kvocka Defence.

4 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we call witness

5 Jadranko Mikic.

6 [The witness entered court]

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Jadranko

8 Mikic. Can you hear me?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You will now be reading the

11 solemn declaration handed to you by the usher. Please go ahead.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

13 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 WITNESS: JADRANKO MIKIC

17 [Witness answered through interpreter]

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much for coming.

19 You are going to be answering questions put to you by Mr. Krstan Simic.

20 Mr. Krstan Simic, your witness.

21 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Examined by Mr. K. Simic:

23 Q. Good morning to you for the second time, Mr. Mikic. As you know,

24 my name is Krstan Simic, and together with Mr. Lukic, we represent the

25 Defence team of Mr. Kvocka, and I shall be asking you a number of

Page 7040

1 questions as the Defence team. Are you ready?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. For the record, could you give us your full name and surname,

4 please?

5 A. My name is Jadranko Mikic.

6 Q. When were you born?

7 A. On the 17th of June, 1957.

8 Q. Where were you born?

9 A. In Banja Luka, where I reside at present.

10 Q. Are you married?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Do you have any children?

13 A. Yes, three.

14 Q. Are you employed today?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Where?

17 A. In the State Security Service of Banja Luka.

18 Q. Mr. Mikic, where did you get your education?

19 A. The Internal Affairs School in Sarajevo.

20 Q. Before that, primary school?

21 A. I graduated from primary school in Banja Luka.

22 Q. How long did your education in the Internal Affairs School last?

23 A. Four years. There were two generations per three years.

24 Q. Can you remember when you enrolled for your first year of studies

25 and when you completed your studies?

Page 7041

1 A. In 1973 was when I enrolled and I graduated in 1976, in the month

2 of June.

3 Q. What kind of school was it? Can you describe it to us?

4 A. It is a specialised school of a boarding school type where cadres

5 are trained for police business for the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

6 Q. Was that the only school of that type in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did members of other ethnic groups, other nationalities, living in

9 Bosnia-Herzegovina at that time attend that school?

10 A. Yes. Enrolment was done according to the parity system, which

11 means that members of all the nationalities were enrolled depending on the

12 population percentages. Now, what per cent to which nation, I can't tell

13 you exactly now.

14 Q. What was the spirit nurtured in the school through tuition,

15 through training, and so on?

16 A. At that time it was the spirit of brotherhood and unity; that is

17 to say, the members of all the ethnic groups were trained and educated

18 together and it was on the basis of brotherhood and unity for all.

19 Q. At the school, were there any divisions amongst the pupils?

20 A. No. That was something that could not even have been conceived of

21 at the time.

22 Q. From the regions we come from, did some people go to school with

23 you?

24 A. Yes. For example, Milan Gavrilovic from Prijedor, Alija Pehadzic,

25 Miroslav Kvocka. Those are some of them.

Page 7042

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2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 7043

1 Q. Did you use the term we use, klasic, when speaking about the

2 pupils in the school?

3 A. Yes. This referred to the members of one year, one class of

4 education, one generation. We were the fourth generation and we would

5 refer to each other as people of the same class, or "klasic" in our

6 language.

7 Q. What was your training programme like?

8 A. We could divide our training programme into three stages,

9 approximately. One of those would be general subjects taught in other

10 secondary schools; the second would be professional subjects which the

11 police need to know; and thirdly, training in the martial arts, the use of

12 weaponry, military doctrine, and similar subjects.

13 Q. Mr. Mikic, let us speak in more specific terms. The school in

14 Sarajevo that you went to, was it a school belonging to the MUP, a part of

15 the MUP only for the uniformed militia, as we referred to it at the time?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did you receive marks/assessments at the school?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You said that you met Mr. Kvocka at the school.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Were you friends with him? Did you become close?

22 A. Yes, because we were from neighbouring towns, and we were perhaps

23 more friendly than the others because we had more points in common.

24 Q. Did Mr. Kvocka complete the school, graduate from it?

25 A. Yes, he did.

Page 7044

1 Q. Do you know what kind of pupil he was; good or bad?

2 A. Mr. Kvocka was among the top ten pupils on the basis of his marks

3 and his conduct, and as a reward for that, he had the right to choose his

4 employment after graduation.

5 Q. You mentioned conduct/behaviour. What does that imply?

6 A. Well, the teachers fill out a personal dossier for a pupil's

7 conduct and behaviour and his development during his years of education,

8 his marks, and so on.

9 Q. Did the teachers look at the pupil's relationship with his fellow

10 students?

11 A. Yes. That is the number one point to which attention focused.

12 Q. You mentioned a moment ago that as one of the best pupils of that

13 fourth generation at the school, he had the right to choose his place of

14 employment. Do you know whether he made use of that opportunity?

15 A. Yes, I do. He chose Prijedor because that is his native town.

16 Q. You have already answered this next question of mine indirectly

17 but give me a direct answer, please.

18 In the four years of education and training at the school, and the

19 time you spent together in the boarding school, did you ever notice on the

20 part of Mr. Kvocka any negative nationalistic feelings towards the members

21 of other ethnic groups or anything of that kind, any burgeoning of a

22 feeling of that kind?

23 A. No, for the precise reasons that I mentioned a moment ago. That

24 was out of the question. Nobody could conceive of such things. On the

25 other hand, as far as I was able to notice, his best friend was Alija

Page 7045

1 Pehadzic from Prijedor. At that time I did not attach any great

2 significance to that. I just knew they were friends, colleagues, that

3 they'd grown up together and that that's why they were friends.

4 Q. After you had completed your schooling at this same school, did

5 you ever meet Mr. Kvocka again?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Where, when, and how?

8 A. We met in the police station of Prijedor because I went to work

9 there as well.

10 Q. How long did you work in Prijedor?

11 A. I worked there between 1976 up until the beginning of 1979.

12 Afterwards I transferred to Omarska for another year.

13 Q. You didn't have an apartment in Prijedor.

14 A. No, because I am from Banja Luka and I had no family in Prijedor.

15 So I was accommodated in the apartment of the family of Alija Pehadzic.

16 There was his mother and his two sisters; the father had been killed in a

17 traffic accident. I lived there for one year.

18 Q. Is that the same Mr. Alija Pehadzic who went to school with you

19 [Realtime transcript read in error "for one year"] and Mr. Kvocka?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. When he returned to Prijedor, did Mr. Kvocka continue to have

22 friends amongst the Muslim and Croat policemen? Was there any intimation

23 of any nationalistic feelings?

24 A. No, absolutely not.

25 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have an objection

Page 7046

1 to the transcript. It was stated that Mr. Pehadzic went to school just

2 for one year. Let me ask the question again to put that right.

3 Q. Did Mr. Pehadzic go to the first form with you and did all four

4 years of the schooling?

5 A. Yes, he attended the school for all four years and received an

6 award for the best marksman in the school. So he attended for four

7 years.

8 Q. When you left Omarska, where did you go?

9 A. I went to Banja Luka.

10 Q. Where?

11 A. The Public Security Station of Banja Luka, that is to say, the

12 police station which was referred to as Centre 1.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Krstan Simic, I see that

14 there are two people in the transcript. Perhaps it's the same person.

15 Perhaps we could have the name spelt out. There is a Mr. Pehadzic and a

16 Mr. Pejasic, so perhaps we could have the name spelled out.

17 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. The individual that we spoke about, could you tell us his name

19 slowly?

20 A. Alija Pehadzic.

21 Q. So that means we're talking about Alija Pehadzic.

22 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, for your

23 assistance.

24 Q. Mr. Mikic, during 1991, have there been any disturbances in that

25 area?

Page 7047

1 A. In 1991, on the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, a military

2 conflict broke out, and the circumstances are widely known.

3 Q. Do you know that at one moment there occurred a division, that the

4 Serbian part of the police separated from the rest of the police of

5 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

6 A. Actually, a lot about it was written in the media but we didn't

7 get involved in that.

8 Q. In the police, were you or anyone else addressed by the head of

9 the CSB, the commander of the public security station, asking you,

10 "Gentlemen/Comrades, are you in favour of a part of the police force

11 controlling the Serbian territories separating from the rest of the police

12 force?"

13 A. No, never.

14 Q. When did you -- when you learnt this news, did anything change in

15 the method of work of the police, in their application of the

16 regulations?

17 A. Basically no.

18 Q. Did you receive any new instructions such as, "From this day

19 onwards you shall work in this way"?

20 A. No. Everything remained approximately as it was before.

21 Q. You've been a policeman for a long time. What do the uniformed

22 part of the police act upon?

23 A. The orders of their superior, pursuant, of course, to the law on

24 internal affairs.

25 Q. In that year, 1992, was the law on internal affairs changed?

Page 7048

1 A. The law on internal affairs was adopted by a decision of the

2 Minister. I believe it was in 1975. A year or two later - I think in

3 1977 - it was officially enacted on the entire territory of Bosnia and

4 Herzegovina. That law is still in force with very minor changes. The

5 substance of the law is the same.

6 Q. Are you speaking about the law or the rules of procedure?

7 A. I'm speaking about the law on internal affairs, that is, the rules

8 of our service.

9 Q. Were you familiar with those rules of service?

10 A. Partly.

11 Q. Do these rules of service regulate the obligations and

12 procedures?

13 A. Yes, very specifically.

14 Q. Mr. Mikic, you said that both in Prijedor and in Omarska and also

15 in Banja Luka, you worked at the police station. Can you tell us, please,

16 at the police station, what persons are in superior positions?

17 A. That is the commander of the station, the deputy commander of the

18 station, and two or more assistants.

19 Q. Mr. Mikic, what does the number of those assistants depend on?

20 A. It depends on the size of the station and the territory it

21 covers.

22 Q. The police station called Centre 1 is a large one. Did it have a

23 lower form of organisation, a branch?

24 A. It had a commander, a deputy commander, assistants, assistant

25 commander for crime, and assistant commander for traffic control.

Page 7049

1 Q. I don't believe you quite understood me. I was not talking about

2 the command structure. I was talking about a sub-unit maybe.

3 A. Like all stations, it had services, the beat service, the patrol

4 service, it had outposts. Those would be the sections of the police

5 station. Specifically, those outposts were in Vrbas and in Bronzani

6 Majdan.

7 Q. When you mentioned these outposts in Bronzani Majdan and in Vrbas,

8 were they in separate buildings from the police station?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. So they had their own buildings?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Were they integral parts of the basic police station?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. The commander of the basic police station, was he also in command

15 of the policemen in, say, Bronzani Majdan?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did this section have a commander, a superior officer, and what

18 was his name?

19 A. It had its section commander.

20 Q. Did the station commander -- was the station commander also his

21 commander as well as the commander of other policemen?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Are there deputy commanders in the section or assistants?

24 A. No.

25 Q. So the line of command ends with the commander of the outpost or

Page 7050

1 section and starts with the station commander?

2 A. Yes. It ends and begins with him.

3 Q. You mentioned that you worked in Prijedor and your activity was

4 linked to the activity of the CSB. In the police station of Prijedor of

5 the police - I'm not talking about the traffic police - were there any

6 subsections?

7 A. There were three of them, three sections, Ljubija, Kozarac, and

8 Omarska.

9 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would now like to

10 present a document to this witness, that is, communication sent by Simo

11 Drljaca to the Security Services Centre Banja Luka. It is numbered

12 11/12/20-31 of the 29th of May, 1992. I would like this to be

13 distributed.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Is that a new document,

15 Mr. Simic?

16 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes. This document has never been

17 used before.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Because when we're talking about

19 a new document, we need help to have it distributed. When we are just

20 recalling a document, we don't distribute it.

21 So what will be the number, please?

22 THE REGISTRAR: D40/1.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you. You may continue,

24 Mr. Simic.

25 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation]

Page 7051

1 Q. Mr. Mikic, you have in front of you a dispatch. Is that a normal

2 way of communication between lower instances towards superior ones?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. In the corner above it says "DX." What does it mean?

5 A. It's not encoded dispatch. It's a normal dispatch going through

6 regular channels to subordinates and superiors. In this case, the chief,

7 Simo Drljaca, is informing the CSB of Banja Luka and the head of the

8 centre in Banja Luka.

9 Q. Please tell me, this paragraph 1 I will quote, it says: "In

10 Prijedor there is one police station with general authority, with three

11 branch stations (Omarska, Kozarac, and Ljubija) police departments."

12 Are these the departments or sections you mentioned before?

13 A. Yes, those are the ones.

14 Q. Mr. Mikic, we mentioned this -- the turmoil we have all lived

15 through, and I would like to ask you a question. Where does your wife

16 come from?

17 A. From Piskavica. That is a small village on the border of

18 Omarska. It belongs to the Banja Luka municipality, whereas Omarska is

19 part of the Prijedor municipality.

20 Q. In the police circles, in the year 1992, did you have any

21 opportunity to hear any rumours about Mr. Kvocka, and if so, what were

22 those rumours?

23 A. Yes. They were triggered by an incident which I can mention.

24 Q. Go on.

25 A. It was in the first half of 1992, in the CSB of Banja Luka. The

Page 7052

1 story circulated that an anonymous report or denunciation came concerning

2 mister -- addressed to Drljaca. It was also being said that the author

3 was Miroslav Kvocka. All this was connected with the fact that Miroslav

4 Kvocka was married to a Muslim, that his sisters had married Muslims, and

5 the entire context concerned this fact. It said that he is not a person

6 to be trusted, that he had links with Muslims, et cetera.

7 Q. What was your reaction to those rumours, if I can call them that?

8 A. Well, I didn't like it, honestly, in view of the time, the years

9 we had spent together, because I knew the kind of man he was and his

10 character, his integrity. I couldn't believe those stories.

11 So I availed myself of one opportunity when I was in Piskavica

12 with my wife, visiting her parents, to go and visit Miroslav and to tell

13 him of those rumours and to warn him as much as I could.

14 Q. Warn him against what in those circumstances?

15 A. Well, since it was the year 1992, at the time of the armed

16 conflict, very unstable times when anything could happen, things were

17 going out of control.

18 Q. Mr. Mikic, you are a policeman. You have lived through all that

19 happened there. Was there a real danger for someone who was labelled by

20 anyone as a collaborator with the enemy nation?

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Krstan Simic, I must warn

22 you that you are asking the witness for an opinion. So you mustn't object

23 later on. I'm just warning you.

24 Do you understand what I've just said? You're asking the witness

25 to express an opinion. Just so that it be known.

Page 7053

1 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

2 Q. Was it dangerous in these times to be labelled as a collaborate

3 with the opposite side?

4 A. Yes. It was more than dangerous.

5 Q. Now did Mr. Kvocka react to what you told him, to this warning

6 about the rumours?

7 A. He simply couldn't believe it. Because we had known each other

8 for a long time, we talked very sincerely. I conveyed to him all that I

9 had heard, and I told him my personal opinion that this could be very

10 dangerous. And it really could. There were many drunken fools, there are

11 many paramilitary formations around, and anything could have happened.

12 Things could have run out of control regardless of who you were and what

13 you were doing.

14 However, Miroslav said that he was trying to do his job as he was

15 trained to do it, as we were taught, and he thought that all of that would

16 simply pass, go away.

17 Q. When you were doing your duties as a policeman, were you ever on

18 the beat?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What were you, exactly, in that system?

21 A. I was a policeman.

22 Q. Did you have any particular position?

23 A. I was a beat officer, a street-duty policeman.

24 Q. Were you ever on patrol?

25 A. I was an escort, a partner to a patrol officer, the leader of the

Page 7054

1 sector.

2 Q. What does that mean, an escort to the leader of the patrol sector?

3 A. As a rule, it's a young policeman, a junior policeman, or a

4 policeman who comes from a different area, not a local man.

5 Q. The patrol sector leader or patrol area leader, what were his

6 duties?

7 A. This leader could be a senior policeman in terms of years of

8 service, but not necessarily. But of primary importance is that he is a

9 local man because he knows the people who live there and he knows the

10 territory, the layout.

11 Q. Why is it important for him to know the terrain and the people?

12 A. Because it facilitates contacts with people; it enables him to do

13 his job, to fulfil the orders. If he knows the people in the field, that

14 facilitates his job.

15 Q. What was the difference between the escort and the patrol sector

16 leader?

17 A. Basically, there was none.

18 Q. In conclusion, you have just said you now work in the State

19 Security Service.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And you graduated from the school for uniformed police staff.

22 Could you please explain to the Trial Chamber when and how you came to

23 work in this service?

24 A. I'll come back to a detail I mentioned earlier to make things

25 clearer. In 1994, I transferred to the Crime Investigation Service. I

Page 7055

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13 English transcripts.

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Page 7056

1 continued to work in the police station Centre 1 but in mufti. That was

2 perhaps a promotion as a reward for my work.

3 Q. Did you become a superior officer or did you receive a higher

4 rank?

5 A. No. The rank is the same. I just stopped wearing a uniform.

6 Q. Please continue.

7 A. In 1996, I was transferred to the entourage of the Prime

8 Minister.

9 Q. Who was it?

10 A. Mr. Rajko Kasagic. I was his escort ex officio. Automatically, I

11 transferred to the State Security Service because the Public Security

12 Service does not provide escorts to the Prime Minister; that's not their

13 job.

14 Q. So since 1995 you have been in the State Security Sector of the

15 CSB of Banja Luka.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Thank you, Mr. Mikic.

18 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

20 There appear to be other Defence counsel that have a comment to

21 make. Mr. Nikolic, no? Mr. Stojanovic, no? Mr. Fila.

22 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Just one question.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Go ahead, please.

24 Cross-examined by Mr. Fila:

25 Q. You mentioned the leader of the patrol sector and his escort. Is

Page 7057

1 there a lower level than this escort of the leader of the patrol sector

2 among regular police officers?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Who gives orders to whom, the leader of the patrol sector to the

5 escort or vice versa?

6 A. Actually, the leader of the sector should be in command. He is

7 usually a more experienced policeman.

8 Q. So let us repeat: This escort of his has absolutely no command

9 authority over the leader of the patrol service.

10 A. No.

11 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Fila.

13 Mr. Jovan Simic, no questions?

14 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] No questions, thank you.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers? I see it's

16 Mr. Waidyaratne for the cross-examination. Your witness.

17 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Cross-examined by Mr. Waidyaratne:

19 Q. Mr. Mikic, good afternoon.

20 A. Good afternoon.

21 Q. You said many things about Mr. Kvocka. Could you tell us whether

22 you knew him before you came to Sarajevo, to the School of Internal

23 Affairs?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Could you explain -- the three years that you spent in the school

Page 7058

1 and subsequently, you said that you were good friends or more friendly.

2 Could you explain as to what this association was?

3 A. As we were young in those days, actually children, we were far

4 from home, we were in a boarding school, and naturally we tended to become

5 close, especially people coming from the same environment, the same

6 village, the same town. So we had much more in common and it was quite

7 normal for us to become close. That is how things were.

8 Q. That's during the school days, the association of friendship that

9 you had with him.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. After that, when you resumed police duties in the Prijedor Police

12 Station, did you have the same relationship with him?

13 A. I think we became even closer, because when you're working in the

14 police, your colleague, your partner, whatever you like to call him, is a

15 very important person in your life.

16 Q. Did you discuss anything personal with him or, say, did you

17 discuss any politics with him?

18 A. No.

19 Q. What were the personal matters that you discussed with him?

20 A. Many things. In those days, we were young. We would talk about

21 girlfriends, outings, a little about work, the usual topics that

22 interested us in those days. Nothing of special importance.

23 Q. Did you discuss anything about his family, how many family members

24 he had, or what his father was doing about the financial difficulties that

25 he had?

Page 7059

1 A. No. In those days, no.

2 Q. Do you know how many brothers he had?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Have you ever asked him about his family members?

5 A. Rarely. As I have already said, when I graduated from school, I

6 was 18 and those were not subjects that interested us at that age.

7 Q. Did Mr. Kvocka, at any time, discuss with you politics or any

8 political convictions or commitments he had?

9 A. No, no. As far as I'm aware, no.

10 Q. You don't know what he was or what his political commitments or

11 convictions were.

12 A. As far as I knew, he was a policeman, first and foremost. And in

13 those days when we were being educated, there was no politics for us.

14 Absolutely none.

15 Q. While you were working in the Prijedor Police Station, did you

16 know any other -- did you know a person by the name of Radic, Mladen

17 Radic?

18 A. No, I don't remember. I know the name but I can't remember.

19 Q. During your entire life in the police - even still you're a police

20 officer - you have not come across the name of -- the person by the name

21 of Mladen Radic, Mladjo Radic?

22 A. I have heard the name but I don't know him personally.

23 Q. Mr. Mikic, I will come to things that you've said about you.

24 After you left Omarska -- the Prijedor Police Station, sorry, the Prijedor

25 Police Station, where did you work?

Page 7060

1 A. I worked in the Banja Luka CSB, the centre police station.

2 Q. During the 1992 conflict, if I may be specific, during the month

3 of May and in August 1992, where were you working?

4 A. The police station called Centre 1, motorised patrol.

5 Q. Could you tell us which areas you overlooked?

6 A. Centre 1 covers the downtown area as the name implies. It is a

7 large part of downtown Banja Luka.

8 Q. During this time, were you assigned any special assignments?

9 A. No, no. I've already said that.

10 Q. Did you know during this time that there were many non-Serbs -

11 Muslims, Croats - that went in convoys, a convoy towards Karlovac, through

12 the mountains of Vlasic?

13 A. I was aware of that report. I had heard that that was going on.

14 But as for the routes, I cannot confirm that. But my answer to the first

15 part of your question is yes.

16 Q. What did you hear about?

17 A. I heard that citizens of non-Serb ethnicity were leaving Banja

18 Luka out of fear from the war, out of fear for their own personal safety

19 probably, and I don't know anything else.

20 Q. Did you hear that people who were detained in the camps, like

21 Omarska, Keraterm, Trnopolje, were in these convoys?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Was police escort provided to these convoys?

24 A. Probably, yes. I could not guarantee it, but probably there was a

25 police escort or a military escort. That is what should have happened,

Page 7061

1 according to the rules.

2 Q. To your knowledge, were you aware that such escort was provided?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Were you in any of these escorts.

5 A. No.

6 Q. Did you know that many -- during the month of August, on the 21st

7 of August, 1992, around 250 non-Serbs were killed at the Vlasic Mountain

8 when they were going in a convoy to Karlovac?

9 A. That there were many rumours and stories about all sides, but

10 these specific facts that you are mentioning is that I could not confirm.

11 Q. And about these rumours and stories that you heard, did you hear

12 that these convoys were under police escort?

13 A. People were going away. These were horrible times. People were

14 leaving en masse and others were coming too from all over. Some people

15 were going in one direction; others were coming in another. There was no

16 full control over these movements. It was just not possible. Everything

17 was based on rumours and hearsay, as people would say, but no very

18 specific data could be obtained probably on any of the sides.

19 Q. The people who were leaving, the non-Serbs who were leaving the

20 Prijedor area and the Banja Luka area, were they -- did they have free

21 movement or were they escorted out or forced out?

22 A. No. At that time, they had freedom of movement, that's for sure.

23 People could come and go as they wished. As for organised departures and

24 arrivals, there were those as well.

25 Q. Mr. Mikic, were there roadblocks, checkpoints during this time?

Page 7062

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And were these people -- the people at the checkpoints, did they

3 check the movements of the others who moved around? What did they do?

4 A. Checkpoints are put up in specific locations in towns and

5 villages, and the army or the police, depending on the orders and who mans

6 the checkpoint, they check movement of persons, vehicles, goods through

7 those checkpoints.

8 Q. Mr. Mikic, just one more question. Now, the rumour that you --

9 the rumours and the stories that you heard, especially the incident that I

10 referred to on the 21st of August, 1992, the killing of around 200 to

11 250 non-Serbs at the Vlasic Mountain, was it a rumour or that you heard in

12 your official capacity?

13 A. I told you that I had not heard this news report personally. I am

14 not familiar with that report. I absolutely don't know about it.

15 Q. Have you ever visited the two camps, Keraterm and Omarska?

16 A. No.

17 Q. You are aware that certain people were released from those camps?

18 A. I don't know anything specific about that as I had no contact with

19 those camps.

20 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Your Honour, I refer to the document just

21 produced by the Defence marked as D40/1. Can that be given to the

22 Witness, please?

23 Q. Are you able to read that document, Mr. Mikic?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. This is a document which is supposed to have been signed by Simo

Page 7063

1 Drljaca.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Of the public security station.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Dated 28th May, 1992.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And you were referred by the learned counsel, were you, for

8 Mr. Kvocka, to the first paragraph. Am I correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Could you please read out the second paragraph?

11 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, objection.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] There's no need to make the

13 witness read it. Just put your question to the witness.

14 I'm sorry, Mr. Krstan Simic. We're going to speed things up, so

15 please be seated.

16 MR. WAIDYARATNE:

17 Q. Paragraph 2 says:

18 "Before the conflict broke out, there were 107 active policemen,

19 26 of them from the Kozarac area. A number of these policemen were killed

20 in combat operations and the others are in the collection centre."

21 Am I correct?

22 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Krstan Simic, what is your

24 objection?

25 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is a dispatch

Page 7064

1 sent by the head of the public security station to the head of the centre

2 of the security services, and I really don't see what point there is

3 asking Mr. Mikic to comment on this report when he is an escort, the

4 escort of the leader of the patrol sector.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, I think there's no

6 problem in putting this question to the witness. If the witness knows

7 something, he will tell us. If he doesn't, he will say no.

8 We're wasting a lot of time with these interruptions and

9 questions.

10 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you.

11 Q. Is it stated in the document?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, Mr. Mikic, you must be quite familiar with the area of

14 Kozarac.

15 A. No.

16 Q. You have not been to Kozarac?

17 A. I have. I have.

18 Q. Do you know that there is a police station in Kozarac?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you know as to any of these people who served in Kozarac, the

21 policemen?

22 A. I knew them by sight. I think Dedukic was the station commander,

23 something like that. Then a colleague of mine called Milos worked there,

24 and I think Ibrahim Denic worked there for a time and then he was

25 transferred to Omarska. As far as I can remember, those are the people I

Page 7065

1 can think of.

2 Q. I'm sure as an experienced police officer, you must know that

3 Kozarac was predominantly a Muslim area.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you know as to what happened to the police officers of Muslim

6 ethnicity after the takeover in Prijedor?

7 A. I really don't know. There was an armed conflict, many policemen

8 were killed, many were wounded, and any further details, I don't know. In

9 those days it was impossible to keep track of things.

10 Q. Did you sign a loyalty oath, a Serb loyalty oath?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Now, Mr. Mikic, I will come to the meeting that you had with

13 Mr. Kvocka. Could you tell us roughly when you had this meeting with

14 Mr. Kvocka at the Omarska centre?

15 A. In 1992, in June. I think the first half of June.

16 Q. According to Mr. Kvocka's testimony, it is almost after a year

17 that you have met him in Omarska in 1992. Is that correct?

18 A. I really can't remember. Quite possibly.

19 Q. It was after a long time. During this time of the ethnic

20 conflict, if I may narrow down the period, 1992, April and in August, how

21 many times did you meet Kvocka?

22 A. I think only once.

23 Q. And is it correct that it was the time that you met him at the

24 Omarska centre?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7066

1 Q. Had you had time --

2 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Simic.

4 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness never said

5 he met Mr. Kvocka in the Omarska centre, because from that one could

6 conclude that they went to the centre to have that meeting, the camp.

7 They actually met in the village of Omarska, in the centre of the village

8 of Omarska.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Please rephrase your

10 question.

11 MR. WAIDYARATNE: If I may answer this question, Your Honour. I'm

12 referring to the testimony given by Mr. Kvocka on the 2nd of March, 2000.

13 According to Mr. Kvocka, he said he met Mr. Mikic at the Omarska centre

14 and, in fact, he had gone for coffee.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Put your question to the

16 witness.

17 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, but in the centre of Omarska.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Put your question to the

19 witness, Mr. Waidyaratne, and then we'll review all that. Give the

20 Chamber a little leeway and we will clarify these things. So put your

21 question to the witness, please.

22 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you.

23 Q. Where did you meet Mr. Kvocka in the month of June?

24 A. To make things quite clear, Omarska is a small locality which has

25 two main streets, and everything that happens there usually happens in the

Page 7067

1 centre of that village. That is where there is a general store, two or

2 three cafes. So everything centres around those two streets.

3 Q. Did you have coffee with Mr. Kvocka on that day? Surely you must

4 remember that.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did you discuss anything personal, other than the discussion that

7 you testified to today?

8 A. Yes, we did.

9 Q. Could you tell us as to what it was?

10 A. We discussed what the two of us were doing, what he was doing,

11 what I was doing, whether we were having any difficulties. That was the

12 subject of greatest interest to us at that time.

13 Q. Did Mr. Kvocka say what he was doing at that time? Did he say

14 that he was attached to the Omarska camp?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What else did he say?

17 A. He told me that temporarily he was working in the investigations

18 centre - that is how he described it - the investigations centre of

19 Omarska and that there were very many problems because everything was pure

20 improvisation. Nothing had been put in order; nothing was working as it

21 should.

22 Q. He said temporarily, or is it that you got the indication that it

23 was temporary?

24 A. That was not my impression. It has to be temporary because these

25 were extraordinary circumstances. He couldn't have been working there on

Page 7068

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12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

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22

23

24

25

Page 7069

1 a permanent basis; it was quite impossible.

2 Q. Did he say as to what functions he had to perform in the camp?

3 A. No, no. He said that he was on duty there, that he had a table,

4 and he said, "I've got a telephone for contacts." That's all.

5 Q. What are the difficulties that he spoke about?

6 A. He spoke about the problems. To make things clearer for you, we

7 are trained policemen. We're used to order and discipline so that

8 everything should be according to procedure. If that is lacking, we have

9 a problem, which means that we are not able to perform our duties in the

10 way we should.

11 Q. Did Mr. Kvocka speak about his former colleagues being detained at

12 the centre -- at the camp?

13 A. No. But he said that his commander, Zeljo - Zelja, I think that's

14 how he called him, I don't know him personally - was endeavouring to

15 improve things but that he was having very little success.

16 Q. Did Mr. Kvocka speak about Fikret Harambasic, Avdagic --

17 A. No, no.

18 Q. -- that these people were detained at the camp and they were

19 detained in subhuman conditions?

20 A. No.

21 Q. He never said anything about non-Serbs, his former colleagues, who

22 were detained at the camp?

23 A. By name, we did not discuss anyone in person. But he told me that

24 the situation was bad and that the persons coming there were not in a good

25 condition. Because that was an investigations centre, that is how it was

Page 7070

1 called in those days, it was not a camp at the time.

2 Q. You said that the conditions were bad. What did he say about the

3 conditions? What did he say?

4 A. Well, that the food was poor, the accommodation was poor; that

5 they were not able to provide proper food or proper accommodation. They

6 lacked the facilities to provide relatively normal conditions for the time

7 we are talking about.

8 Q. Did he speak about his brothers-in-law?

9 A. No, no.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Waidyaratne, the witness

11 already told you that they spoke in general terms, without mentioning

12 names. If we are going to ask about names, then the witness will tell you

13 that they didn't talk about that person. He told you that they spoke in

14 general terms. So please move on.

15 MR. WAIDYARATNE:

16 Q. Did Mr. Kvocka say that he took certain family members to the

17 investigative centre and later on took them back home?

18 A. No. It's the first time I'm hearing of it.

19 Q. When Mr. Kvocka spoke about the conditions in the camp, did he say

20 that he was trying to improve the conditions in the camp?

21 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Simic.

23 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the question was put

24 to the witness and the witness explicitly said that his commander, Zeljo,

25 was endeavouring to improve things. In answer to the question as to what

Page 7071

1 Kvocka was doing there, the witness answered that he was on duty there.

2 So I don't know what the purpose of this question is.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] In any event, it's an important

4 question. So put your question to the witness, Mr. Waidyaratne, in a very

5 concrete form.

6 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. Mr. Kvocka, when he spoke about the conditions in the camp, did he

8 say that he was trying to improve the conditions in the camp?

9 A. No. I've already told you, he was mentioning his commander

10 Zeljo - I personally don't know this man, Zeljo - and that he was

11 endeavouring with superiors in Prijedor to improve conditions, to do

12 something - to improve something, that's what he said - but that he was

13 having little success, that he was not managing to achieve that properly.

14 Q. Mr. Mikic, when you spoke about the rumours or the stories that

15 you heard about Kvocka, the bad stories, you said that Mr. Kvocka was

16 surprised. What else was -- what was his reaction thereafter?

17 A. I don't know how I could explain it to you. His reaction was that

18 he had nothing against anyone. He went back to the period when we were

19 undergoing training and when we were friends and the way we were taught.

20 So his logic was, "If I have nothing against anyone or don't wish to do

21 any harm to anyone," then surely he should not expect anyone else to harm

22 him. Simply, I think he wasn't aware of the situation and the times we

23 were in, or he became aware very, very late.

24 Q. Did he say that he was not engaging in any help to the people who

25 were there in the camp, or that the rumours were incorrect, not true?

Page 7072

1 A. No, no. As far as individuals or persons who were there, this was

2 something we did not discuss, it's something I did not show any interest

3 in. The reason for our meeting was upon my initiative because I wanted to

4 convey to him what I had heard, so that this meeting didn't take long. We

5 didn't discuss the people who were there; we never spoke about that by

6 name or in any other way. That simply was not one of the topics of our

7 discussion.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I am sorry for interrupting

9 you. How long did this meeting last?

10 A. I couldn't be precise about that now, but 30 to 40 minutes, on the

11 outside.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you very

13 much.

14 How much more time do you need, Mr. Waidyaratne?

15 MR. WAIDYARATNE: A little more time, Your Honour.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

17 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Can we have the adjournment now, Your Honour,

18 and then --

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I was hoping we could finish

20 with this witness before the break. I think your time has expired by

21 now. In any event, we are unable to finish now so we'll have the lunch

22 break. I was trying to release the witness but we'll see.

23 So we'll have a 50-minute lunch break now.

24 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I should like the witness to

Page 7073

1 leave before us, please.

2 [The witness withdrew]

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So, as I said, a 50-minute

4 break.

5 --- Recess taken at 1.05 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at 1.57 p.m.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.

8 [The witness entered court]

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Mikic, you can sit down.

10 Are you now more comfortable after lunch? Very well. Thank you. So we

11 are going to try and finish.

12 Yes, Mr. Waidyaratne.

13 MR. WAIDYARATNE: I'll be very brief, Your Honour.

14 Q. Mr. Mikic, you said that you heard rumours and stories about

15 Mr. Kvocka when you were in Banja Luka. Did you take any action or do

16 anything to clear up these rumours or stories about your friend

17 Mr. Kvocka?

18 A. When I heard them, there was nothing much I could do about it. It

19 was not in my competence. I am a policeman, as we say in our jargon, an

20 infantryman. I have no authority. I don't have the power to do anything

21 about it. The only thing I could do, I did, meet him, convey these things

22 to him and warn him in a way.

23 Q. After the meeting that you discussed these rumours with

24 Mr. Kvocka, when did you meet Mr. Kvocka after that?

25 A. I don't think I did see him after that, as far as I can remember.

Page 7074

1 Q. Did you know that he was a policeman attached to the Prijedor

2 opstina until his arrest?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you know whether he was demoted or reprimanded or any action

5 taken against him with regard to these rumours or the suspicion that they

6 had with regard to him?

7 A. All I can give you is my personal opinion, if it means anything to

8 you.

9 Q. Mr. Mikic, in your direct examination, you spoke of turmoil in the

10 area. What turmoil existed for the Serbians since they were in control of

11 the territory?

12 The Chamber has heard much evidence that after the takeover,

13 without a single bullet being fired, and that many non-Serbs were taken to

14 the camps and they were detain. What --

15 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Simic.

17 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] The witness was speaking about the

18 situation in Banja Luka. He doesn't live in Prijedor, and he wasn't

19 speaking of events in Prijedor or the establishment of camps and the rest

20 of it.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Waidyaratne.

22 MR. WAIDYARATNE: In fact, Mr. Simic answered the question now.

23 If the witness was referring to Banja Luka, he could have said that. But

24 I thought it was in general that he was talking about, the general

25 situation in the area.

Page 7075

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What is the purpose of this line

2 of questioning?

3 MR. WAIDYARATNE: To show that there was no such turmoil or any

4 difficulties that these people faced during that time, as they were in

5 control of the territory.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please, perhaps you should

7 rephrase the question, because you have just stated an opinion.

8 MR. WAIDYARATNE:

9 Q. Mr. Mikic, did you have any difficulties or have any bad periods

10 during the takeover, or during the conflict that you've referred to?

11 A. I did, just as anyone else. Regardless of ethnicity, we had the

12 same problems; lack of food, water, electricity, all the problems

13 associated with such conflicts. It was the same for everyone. The

14 police, under those circumstances, worked very hard, under very difficult

15 conditions.

16 Q. Mr. Mikic, other than being a policeman, were you not able to move

17 freely during this time?

18 A. Well, basically, I couldn't.

19 Q. Were you not provided with food? Were you not -- didn't you have

20 sufficient food?

21 A. No.

22 MR. WAIDYARATNE: That concludes my cross-examination. Thank

23 you.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Krstan Simic, are there any

25 additional questions?

Page 7076

1 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, just one

2 question.

3 Re-examined by Mr. K. Simic:

4 Q. Mr. Mikic, when you spoke about the police station, before these

5 events and during those events and today, the police station, does it have

6 any powers to conduct investigations regarding any criminal acts?

7 A. The police station, you mean uniformed policemen? No. There is a

8 special service dealing with that; we call that the Criminal Investigation

9 Service. The police only bring people into custody, make reports about

10 certain information, and that's where their work ends.

11 Q. As an institution of that kind, do you receive any reports saying,

12 for instance, "Four murders were committed in Drakulic; five in Knezevo,"

13 or are these reports sent somewhere else?

14 A. I don't understand the question.

15 Q. Does the police station, I'm talking about part of the Security

16 Services Centre, does it receive reports about grave criminal offences?

17 A. All of such reports come into the CSB and then they are forwarded

18 to the relevant service, the Crime Investigation Service.

19 Q. Does the police station receive them?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Does he inform the policemen under him?

22 A. No.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila, do you have any

24 additional questions? No.

25 Well, then, Judge Riad.

Page 7077

1 Questioned by the Court:

2 JUDGE RIAD: Good afternoon, Mr. Mikic.

3 A. Good afternoon.

4 JUDGE RIAD: I'd like just to follow up some of your statements in

5 case you can clarify it more.

6 Concerning the denunciation which was made against Mr. Kvocka -

7 you informed him about it and you explained it to him - did he, from your

8 assessment, react to it? Did he try to counteract it by a certain action,

9 by trying to prove that he was not a sympathiser, for instance, or even a

10 collaborator of the Muslims? What would he do in such a case?

11 A. No. I said it once before, I believe that Mr. Kvocka was not

12 quite aware of the times we were living in and he was not aware of what

13 his environment was like. He simply couldn't understand it. His life

14 creed was "I'm a good man and I expect everyone to be good to me." That

15 is not the proper thinking for a policeman.

16 JUDGE RIAD: Now, what happened to other people who were

17 sympathisers around you? Were they kicked out of their jobs? Were they

18 in danger?

19 A. I don't know how to explain this. It was not obvious, evident

20 danger, life danger, but those people were under some sort of

21 surveillance. It was a bit different.

22 Because the very fact that Mr. Kvocka worked there as the duty

23 officer in this investigations centre, he worked practically as a

24 receptionist and it was a demotion for him as a policeman, because at

25 school he was a good student, he was one of the best in Prijedor. On

Page 7078

1 account of that, he even went to work in the security detail in one of our

2 embassies; I don't know where it was, Vienna, Paris, somewhere. And the

3 very fact that he was appointed to such a position after that was, in my

4 view, a demotion, if that answers your question.

5 JUDGE RIAD: And you considered that as the punishment for being a

6 sympathiser?

7 A. I wouldn't say it was a punishment, but it was some form of

8 degradation, demotion, rather, because he was working as a receptionist.

9 It was not a real policeman's job.

10 JUDGE RIAD: So he was looked upon as not a very, let's say,

11 aggressive policeman.

12 A. No. Quite the contrary.

13 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Judge Riad.

15 Madam Judge Wald, please.

16 JUDGE WALD: Mr. Mikic, you said that the rumour you heard about

17 Mr. Kvocka in the spring of 1992 was that he was not to be trusted because

18 he was, you used the word "connected," to Muslims. Was that rumour, as it

19 reached your ears, based pretty much on the fact that he had relatives,

20 his wife, his brothers-in-law, et cetera, who were Muslim, or did it go

21 beyond that and the rumour was that he really believed in the same things

22 they did, was sympathetic to them, would help them in their endeavours?

23 A. I think that was primarily due to his wife and his

24 brothers-in-law, because his wife is a Muslim and his brothers-in-law, of

25 course, as well. So I think that's where the -- from where the wind was

Page 7079

1 blowing.

2 JUDGE WALD: In that case, you said you felt it your duty as a

3 friend to warn him. What could he be warned about if it was based upon

4 the fact that it was his relatives? There wasn't anything he could do

5 about that. Just to be aware of it or what?

6 A. Precisely. Our friendship was a long-standing one. In the

7 police, we all rely on each other. Our job is such that we always run

8 risks. So there is a bond between us. I felt it was my duty to talk to

9 him, to discuss it with him, to see what he has to say about it and

10 whether he knew anything about it at all, whether he was aware of it in

11 the first place.

12 JUDGE WALD: Okay. My second question is: When you did meet with

13 him in June 1992 and he told you about his assignment to Omarska, to the

14 camp, and I think you mentioned he said he had a table and a telephone,

15 and you referred to him later on as basically a receptionist, did he,

16 besides describing that part of his job, did he ever mention whether he

17 had any title in the job, any official title in the Omarska camp, that he

18 was a guard - I'm just using these as examples - a guard, a shift

19 commander, a deputy commander, a commander, that he had any formal title?

20 Did he ever mention if that was so?

21 A. No, not in that context, never. As for the table and the

22 telephone set, he didn't tell me that. I heard someone saying something

23 like, "They gave him a small table and a telephone set to play

24 receptionist." That was said tongue-in-cheek. I don't even think it was

25 a direct line with a connection to Banja Luka. It was just an intercom

Page 7080

1 number.

2 JUDGE WALD: So you say you heard that about the telephone and the

3 table from somebody else. So while Mr. Kvocka was at the camp, there were

4 still rumours circulating even in the period after you met with him in the

5 Banja Luka office? People were still talking about him even after you had

6 your conversation with him?

7 A. Well, those were superficial gossip, superficial talk among people

8 who knew each other. It was a narrow circle. As we would say, just

9 mentioned in passing.

10 JUDGE WALD: Okay. My last question is: After Mr. Kvocka left

11 the camp and when he returned to other duties in the police system, did

12 you hear any further rumours about him of any sort, after he left the

13 Omarska camp and went back to other police duties, and if so, what?

14 A. Nothing much. But he was no longer so popular in his locality, in

15 his hometown, as he used to be.

16 JUDGE WALD: But you knew that he had left, or did you find out

17 that he had left the camp at some point and was back in a different police

18 job out in the community?

19 A. No. I couldn't really say yes or no, because I don't know. I

20 don't know when it happened or anything.

21 JUDGE WALD: You mean you never heard anything during that summer

22 about him as to whether or not he was still at the camp or he had left the

23 camp and gone on to other duties?

24 A. No. I had absolutely no further information about him.

25 JUDGE WALD: And you didn't, I take it, make any inquiries as to

Page 7081

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Page 7082

1 just where he was, what he was doing, whether he was still at the camp?

2 A. No. I didn't ask specifically about him. We usually ask about

3 each other. I have friends, and when we meet, we discuss who is where and

4 how the families are and whether a person is alive and well, and the rest

5 is less important.

6 JUDGE WALD: And you did -- this is my last question. You said

7 that you did hear at some time that when he went back to other police

8 duties, he was less popular in his own community. When would you have

9 heard that? Approximately what time would you have heard that?

10 A. I really couldn't tell you. A lot of time has gone by, and I

11 wouldn't like to say anything inaccurate.

12 JUDGE WALD: Thank you.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Mikic, I have some very

14 simple questions for you. Do you know Mr. Kvocka's wife?

15 A. Yes.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And her sisters or brothers?

17 A. No.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Not even today?

19 A. No.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Could you give us a date as to

21 when you heard these rumours, the rumours that we have discussed?

22 A. I'm really not able to do so, I'm sorry.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Do you know when

24 Mr. Kvocka left the Omarska centre?

25 A. I know that it was very shortly after our conversation. I think

Page 7083

1 he stayed on after that for a very brief time, but I don't know the exact

2 date. After that, I don't know where he went.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. So for a brief time

4 after your conversation. So can you give us the date of your conversation

5 then?

6 A. I'm really not able to do that. I'm sorry.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But you told us that this

8 conversation lasted more or less half an hour. Do you remember where you

9 met, the place or the coffee shop or where it was?

10 A. It's not really a coffee shop. It's like a restaurant in the

11 centre, at the crossroads of two roads in the very heart of Omarska.

12 About 50 feet from the police station, roughly.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Do you know Omarska well?

14 A. Well, more or less.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Mikic.

16 You have completed your testimony. We thank you very much for coming

17 here, and we wish you a safe journey home. Thank you very much.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

19 [The witness withdrew]

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Krstan Simic, do you wish to

21 tender this document, D40/1? I think that's the only one.

22 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

24 Mr. Waidyaratne, do you have any objections?

25 MR. WAIDYARATNE: No.

Page 7084

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. So

2 document D40/1 is admitted into evidence.

3 I believe, Mr. Krstan Simic, that you have a motion, a request.

4 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I have filed a

5 motion for protective measures because obviously there was a

6 misunderstanding at the Status Conference. I upheld my request and

7 Ms. Somers did not oppose it. So we have just drafted it, and I made the

8 submission through the registrar to you for protective measures for the

9 following witnesses.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] For the following witnesses; is

11 that right? For the next witness? For this next witness; is that right?

12 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] No. The witnesses which are due to

13 come later, next week.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.

15 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to call

16 the next witness, if I may.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Just let me hear the

18 opinion of the Prosecutor because then we can proceed more quickly.

19 Ms. Susan Somers, do you have any objection in relation to this

20 motion?

21 MS. SOMERS: If the Chamber would grant me one moment to confer

22 with my colleague, just to make sure I know exactly about whom this is.

23 Thank you.

24 [Prosecution counsel confer]

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think that Mr. Krstan Simic

Page 7085

1 said that he spoke to the Prosecutor, in accordance with our Rules, a

2 motion first to be discussed by the other party and then filed.

3 Is that correct, Mr. Krstan Simic?

4 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. But there was a

5 misunderstanding at the previous Status Conference at which Ms. Somers

6 supported my request for protective measures.

7 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Your Honour. No objections.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] There may be a problem of

9 translation because the translation was that Ms. Somers filed a motion. I

10 think that's not right.

11 What I gathered from the last Status Conference was that

12 Ms. Somers would not have any objection on condition that -- but what I

13 have in the transcript is: [In English] "... at the previous Status

14 Conference at which Ms. Somers supported my request for protective

15 measures."

16 What is this, Madam Susan Somers?

17 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, without having the transcript in front

18 of me, I doubt that I'd support it but I'd probably not object to it. And

19 having reviewed the upcoming witnesses with my colleagues, we do not

20 oppose these measures.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Fine. We're going to take

22 advantage of the time. The Chamber is going to study your motion and make

23 a decision. I thought it was for the next witness. But as it is for

24 witnesses for next week, you will have a decision tomorrow or the next

25 day.

Page 7086

1 So the next witness now, Mr. Krstan Simic.

2 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes. The witness is Lazo Basrak.

3 MS. SOMERS: Excuse me, Your Honour. May we clarify that? We had

4 Mr. Basrak as the fifth witness, and if this is out of order, then I'm

5 afraid we were given wrong information for our preparation. Mr. Basrak

6 was listed as witness number 5, and we were told that this would be the

7 absolute order.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Krstan Simic.

9 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] It is correct that it is out of

10 order, but we wanted to take advantage of the time, to use the little time

11 we have left to hear this witness who is testifying only about two facts.

12 He will be testifying very briefly.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers, do you accept

14 this change of order? I must remind you that the Prosecutor changed the

15 order of their witnesses a great deal during your case.

16 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, certainly in principle, when a change

17 comes up and it's completely unexpected. However, we only days ago

18 established this order. These were witnesses who were added. We have had

19 to scramble to put our basic cross together, and I would not be able to

20 proceed at this time. We're blind-sided on this.

21 JUDGE WALD: Why can't we just hear his direct? And then you've

22 got overnight, if necessary, I mean if you feel you can't handle the

23 cross, then you've got overnight. If it's that short, then you can surely

24 put it together overnight.

25 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, thank you for offering that option. If

Page 7087

1 we can, depending on the nature of it, if we determine that, we would

2 still need an extra day because we had anticipated having it, I believe,

3 Thursday.

4 JUDGE WALD: If it's very short and he gets through the direct

5 today, or if he doesn't get through the direct today, you're an

6 experienced lawyer, I know, in the courtroom, along with your colleagues,

7 and I'm sure you could put together the cross overnight.

8 MS. SOMERS: We'll give it our very best effort. We only ask that

9 if there are going to be these changes -- we've had multiple contacts and

10 this was never raised.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. We were just depriving

12 Mr. Krstan Simic of his attempt to prove that he would begin and finish

13 with this witness today; isn't that right, Mr. Krstan Simic?

14 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

15 [The witness entered court]

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good afternoon. Can you hear

17 me?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] It is the Presiding Judge who is

20 talking to you. You are going to read the solemn declaration handed to

21 you by the usher, please.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

23 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

24 WITNESS: LAZAR BASRAK

25 [Witness answered through interpreter]

Page 7088

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Make yourself comfortable. Get

4 closer to the microphone, please.

5 First of all, let me say thank you for coming. For the moment,

6 you are going to answer questions which will be put to you by Mr. Krstan

7 Simic. After that, other counsel may have questions for you; then the

8 Prosecutor and the Judges.

9 Mr. Krstan Simic, your witness.

10 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Examined by Mr. K. Simic:

12 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Basrak.

13 A. Good afternoon.

14 Q. For the record, will you give us your exact name, please.

15 A. My name is Lazar Basrak.

16 Q. When were you born?

17 A. On the 22nd of March, 1952.

18 Q. And where?

19 A. In Niska Glava, Prijedor municipality.

20 Q. Where are you residing now?

21 A. In Banja Luka.

22 Q. Are you married?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you have any children?

25 A. Yes. Two.

Page 7089

1 Q. What is your status today? Are you employed?

2 A. I am a retired policeman.

3 Q. Where were you working during your career in the police?

4 A. I worked in Zagreb, the municipality of Velika Gorica.

5 Q. From when until when?

6 A. From the 25th of October, 1976 until the 14th of September, 1991.

7 Q. Was your wife working in Zagreb?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Were you given an apartment in Zagreb?

10 A. No. I bought my own apartment.

11 Q. Why did you stop working on the 14th of September, in Zagreb, in

12 the Republic of Croatia?

13 A. At the beginning of those events in Zagreb, there was certain

14 pressure on policemen of Serb ethnicity. There were threats, so that

15 after midnight we would get phone calls and questions as to whether we

16 would sell our apartment. This would happen five or six times a night,

17 every night, and also they would say what are we waiting for? Why don't

18 we go away?

19 Q. Were your children going to school in Croatia at the time?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. By your actions in Zagreb, did you in any way irritate or provoke

22 citizens of Croat ethnicity?

23 A. No.

24 Q. What actually were you doing in the police structure?

25 A. In the time up to the war, I was an inspector for general criminal

Page 7090

1 offences.

2 Q. Did you leave all your property and Croatia? Where did you go?

3 A. Yes, I did, and I went to Prijedor, to my parents' place.

4 Q. Were you obliged to register with the military department?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did you do that?

7 A. Upon my arrival, I reported for residence. I reported, telling

8 them I had arrived, and that is in line of the law, and they instructed me

9 to report to the military department.

10 Q. According to the established and legal procedure, were you given a

11 military assignment?

12 A. Yes. I was assigned to Police Station Number 1 in Prijedor.

13 Q. What were the people in the Defence Ministry, Prijedor Department,

14 guided by to assign you to the police station in Prijedor?

15 A. Probably the fact that I had been a policeman. So I was familiar

16 with those duties.

17 Q. Were you employed anywhere at the time?

18 A. No.

19 Q. During 1992, were you drafted?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Where were you assigned to after being mobilised?

22 A. I was assigned to the reserve police station in Tukovi.

23 Q. That was a reserve police station?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you remember who was the commander of the Tukovi police

Page 7091

1 station?

2 A. The commander was Mile Drazic.

3 Q. Who was the deputy commander of the reserve police station in

4 Tukovi?

5 A. Antonic was the surname. I'm afraid the name escapes me.

6 Q. Was he from Prijedor?

7 A. Yes, yes.

8 Q. He -- what was he by profession?

9 A. I think he was an engineer.

10 Q. And who was the assistant commander?

11 A. I was the assistant commander of this police station.

12 Q. Before going to the Tukovi police station, had you known Miroslav

13 Kvocka in person?

14 A. No.

15 Q. When and where did you meet Miroslav Kvocka?

16 A. In the Tukovi police station when he came there.

17 Q. When did he come there?

18 A. He came on the 1st of July, in the morning.

19 Q. From then on, until the police station was dismantled, did he work

20 there?

21 A. Yes, he did.

22 Q. What were his duties?

23 A. He worked on the administrative affairs, the paperwork in the

24 police station. That is what he did.

25 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we go into

Page 7092

1 private session for a few minutes, please? I have reasons for making this

2 request.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] All right. Let us go into

4 private session for a few moments.

5 [Private session]

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

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Page 7094

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 [Open session]

5 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

6 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Mr. Basrak, you worked for several months with Mr. Kvocka, and

8 before that you had worked with other people as a policeman. Could you

9 tell Their Honours, in a few sentences, what you think of Mr. Kvocka as a

10 policeman and as a person.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Well, please do so.

13 A. In the short time that I was acquainted with him, I could see that

14 professionally, with respect to his tasks and duties, he was a very

15 reliable individual, an intelligent person. I never noticed that he would

16 pressure any of his colleagues. So I think that Mr. Kvocka, in those

17 days, performed the duties he was entrusted with with the utmost

18 responsibility.

19 Q. You were new in Prijedor. I say this conditionally because you

20 had lived in Zagreb, which you had to abandon due to pressure and

21 persecution. Apart from this report from the gentleman that we just

22 mentioned, did you hear from any other people about Kvocka's

23 collaboration, the description of him as a poor Serb, as a traitor, and so

24 on?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7095

1 Q. What were the rumours?

2 A. Through the public media and among people in Prijedor, the story

3 was that Kvocka was a traitor of the Serb people because he had helped

4 non-Serbs who were in the Omarska camp.

5 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

6 questions for this witness, and I omitted to say, and it has to do with

7 this witness as well, in collaboration with the statement of Mr. Jadranko

8 Mikic, we have filed an affidavit of Mr. Dragan Kontic [as interpreted],

9 and also as corroboration of Mr. Basrak's statement, we have filed Mile

10 Drazic's affidavit, the commander of the Tukovi reserve police station,

11 and we have filed these affidavits as stipulated by the provisions of

12 Rule 94 ter, therefore, in corroboration of these testimonies here in

13 court.

14 I apologise to the interpreters. I see an error here. Dragan

15 Kondic and not "Kontic" should be the name. Dragan Kondic.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you,

17 Mr. Krstan Simic.

18 The other Defence counsel, do they have any questions? I see

19 Mr. Nikolic. I saw some negative signs from the others.

20 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours, no other Defence

21 counsel have any questions for this witness.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you. For the

23 record, I say no, but if somebody does not agree, he can immediately react

24 and we can proceed like that in the future.

25 The Prosecutor for the cross-examination.

Page 7096

1 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, we would ask to take up Judge Wald's

2 option of proceeding tomorrow and have a chance to review the affidavits

3 as well as whatever information we can scrape together on this notice.

4 Thank you.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. So we're not going

6 to call another witness now. It also means that we'll have to adjourn for

7 the day. So we'll be back here tomorrow at 9.20 to continue with

8 Mr. Basrak.

9 Yes, please. Accompany the witness.

10 [The witness withdrew]

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The hearing is adjourned until

12 tomorrow.

13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.50 p.m.,

14 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 24th day

15 of January, 2001 at 9.20 a.m.

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