1 Friday, 9
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.25 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning. Please be
6 seated. I should like to wish everybody in the courtroom a good
7 morning - the Defence counsel, the Prosecution - and let us take our
8 proceedings where we left off yesterday.
9 Mr. Simic, you have the floor.
10 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.
11 According to our schedule for today, the Defence calls witness Milutin
13 [The witness entered court]
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Milutin
15 Bujic. Can you hear me?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Yes, I
17 can hear you.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You are now going to read the
19 solemn declaration handed to you by the usher. Please go ahead.
20 WITNESS: MILUTIN BUJIC
21 [Witness answered through interpreter]
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
23 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you for coming. For the
2 time being, you are going to be answering questions put to you by
3 Mr. Simic.
4 Mr. Simic, your witness.
5 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
6 Examined by Mr. K. Simic:
7 Q. Good morning, Mr. Bujic.
8 A. Good morning.
9 Q. You know my name and surname. I have Mr. Lukic with me, and
10 together we represent the Defence of Mr. Kvocka. We have on several
11 occasions discussed certain questions, and that is the subject that we're
12 going to discuss here before this Trial Chamber of the International
13 Criminal Tribunal.
14 For the record, please give us your full first and last name.
15 A. Milutin Bujic.
16 Q. When were you born, Mr. Bujic?
17 A. On the 28th of March, 1951.
18 Q. Where were you born?
19 A. The village of Cela, near Prijedor.
20 Q. Where do you reside today?
21 A. Sanicani, Prijedor.
22 Q. Are you married?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Do you have any children?
25 A. I have three children.
1 Q. Where did you do your military service, the former Yugoslav
2 People's Army?
3 A. In Novi Sad.
4 Q. I should like to ask you to wait a few moments between my question
5 and your answer. Let's make pauses, please.
6 What education have you had?
7 A. Gymnasium and the higher school of administration.
8 Q. What jobs have you had? What was your professional life?
9 A. I was a police officer. That was my first job. And I was a
10 policeman until I retired.
11 Q. What posts did you hold in the police force?
12 A. I started out as a regular patrol policeman in the patrol sector,
13 then I was a traffic policeman, and then I became the commandeer or leader
14 of a department.
15 Q. What is your status today?
16 A. I'm a pensioner.
17 Q. Where did you work? Were you employed in one place all the time
18 or what?
19 A. Most of my working life I spent in Prijedor, a little bit in
20 Kozarac, and then a bit too in Omarska.
21 Q. If I understand you correctly, does that mean that your entire
22 working life was spent in the police force of Prijedor municipality?
23 A. Yes, that's right.
24 Q. When did you start working in the police force of Prijedor?
25 A. On the 1st of March, 1974.
1 Q. You said that you worked in two police station departments and
2 that you were commandeer or leader of those police station departments.
3 Where were you the first leader?
4 A. In Kozarac from 1985 to 1990, until the end of 1990, the Police
5 Station department of Kozarac.
6 Q. And after that?
7 A. After that, by decision of Talundzic, Hasan, unfortunately I was
8 transferred to Omarska, against my wishes. I was not happy to be
10 Q. What was your functional status in Kozarac?
11 A. I was commandeer or commander of the police station department
13 Q. What about your function in Omarska?
14 A. Also the commander of the police station department.
15 Q. Can you remember how many people the Kozarac Police Station
16 department had working for it while you were there?
17 A. I think there were 11 staff but it was between nine and 11.
18 Q. Can you remember how many people worked in the Police Station
19 department of Omarska?
20 A. According to the jobs provided for there, there should have been
21 15. Fifteen would have been a maximum number but there were never as many
22 as that. There were always less people, less staff when I was there. Not
23 all the job positions were filled.
24 Q. The police station department -- just a minute, I'll ask you
25 something else first. In Prijedor, within the system of the police
1 structure for the Prijedor area, was there another police station
2 department, and, if so, where, that belonged to the Prijedor Police
4 A. Well, according to our rules, regulations, organisation and
5 systematisation, there were three police station departments, in Ljubija,
6 in Kozarac and in Omarska. Those were all police station departments.
7 Q. Mr. Bujic, I should like now to focus on March, 1992, the period
8 before the unfortunate events took place in Prijedor, and these are my
9 questions for you. Do you know who the commander of the police station
10 department in Ljubija was?
11 A. Branko Bjekic.
12 Q. Mr. Branko Bjekic, what was he by ethnicity?
13 A. He was a Croat.
14 Q. Mr. Bujic, who was the commander of the police station department
15 in Kozarac?
16 A. Osman Didovic and he replaced me in Kozarac.
17 Q. Was his name Osmo or Osman?
18 A. His name was Osme.
19 Q. What was he by nationality?
20 A. He was a Muslim.
21 Q. You said you were the commander of the police station departments
22 since, March, 1992, in Omarska. What is your ethnicity?
23 A. I am a Serb.
24 Q. Mr. Bujic, I should like now to present to this Trial Chamber with
25 your assistance the structure of the police force, because some questions
1 relating to that are essential here but we shall stick to the chain, the
2 uniformed chain, and I would like to ask you to take a look at this chart,
3 these diagrams.
4 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation} And I should also like to have
5 these documents handed round to members of the Prosecution and the Trial
6 Chamber for us to be able to follow the testimony of this witness more
8 For purposes of identification, if these documents are of
9 assistance to the Chamber, and are admitted, they will be D43/1. That is
10 the number they have now, they go by now, D43/1.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, the number,
13 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, it is D43/1.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please. There
15 are several charts. Is this -- does all this go under one document and
16 one number, Madam Registrar, or are they different documents with
17 different numbers?
18 THE REGISTRAR: They are one document.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you. Please
20 proceed, Mr. Simic.
21 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Q. Mr. Bujic, would you please take a look at this -- these four
23 charts carefully? And on them, you will be able to see that they give a
24 cross section of how things stood in May, 1992?
25 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Your Honour?
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Waidyaratne?
2 MR. WAIDYARATNE: I object to this document at this stage because
3 there is no foundation as to who prepared this document, the charts, and
4 on what basis. There is no evidence before this Chamber with regard to
5 that. Thank you.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Simic, your response.
7 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have just laid the
8 foundations and said that these are documents, these are charts which were
9 drawn up by Mr. Bujic himself in his discussions with us when we asked him
10 to show us the exact structure of the police force so that we could show
11 the Trial Chamber the organisation of the police force from the station,
12 police station, to the police station departments. These documents can be
13 easily checked out. Any policeman in Bosnia-Herzegovina will tell you
14 that that is so. We just wanted to have them identified. We were just
15 going to have them identified before my learned colleague intervened. So
16 this is common knowledge.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, but these charts were
18 therefore drawn up by the witness; is that correct? Is that what you're
20 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So the witness did this on his
22 own computer, did he?
23 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] No. I said the witness drew this
24 for us during our talks yesterday and we transferred it to the computer.
25 And I was just about to have Mr. Bujic identify the documents.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Waidyaratne.
2 MR. WAIDYARATNE: If Mr. Simic lays the foundation, then I would
3 cross-examine the witness on these documents. Thank you, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Please proceed,
5 Mr. Simic.
6 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Q. Mr. Bujic, you have before you four charts which you, to the best
8 of your recollection, drew up for us, showing the set-up of the
9 organisation of the police force in Prijedor; is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Mr. Bujic, let me start off by taking a look at chart number 1.
12 You have chart number 1 before you. What was the name of the
13 organisational unit of the police force covering the area of the Prijedor
15 A. It was called the public security station.
16 Q. Are we speaking about May 1992?
17 A. Yes, we are.
18 Q. Mr. Bujic, can you tell us, please, what sectors or organisational
19 units the Public Security Station of Prijedor was composed. What did it
20 consist of?
21 A. Within the frameworks of the Public Security Station of Prijedor,
22 there were five organisational units: There was the general police
23 station, then there was the traffic security station, then there was the
24 criminal sector, the legal sector, and the finance sector.
25 Q. These organisational units, did they together make up the system
1 and the entity which was the Public Security Station of Prijedor?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. During your working life, your professional life, did you always
4 belong to the uniformed part of the police force?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Still looking at chart number 1, could you tell us, please, in
7 which organisational structures the uniformed policemen existed.
8 A. In the police stations, that is, the general police station and
9 the traffic security station, in those two organisational units.
10 Q. The members of those two stations, that is to say, the general
11 police station and the traffic department or traffic security station, did
12 they all wear uniforms? Did all the policemen serving in those two units
13 wear uniforms?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Not to lose too much time, we are going to dwell on the uniformed
16 section. We're going to speak about the uniformed police. Would you now
17 turn over to chart number 2. Mr. Bujic, a moment ago you mentioned one
18 segment or sector of the public security station, and you said that it was
19 the general Police Station of Prijedor; is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. How does that police station differ from the traffic security
22 station, which you said also represents the uniformed section of the
23 police force?
24 A. It is different because it had three station departments.
25 Q. Let me go back once again to the organisation. Let me rephrase
1 the question. Was there any difference between the type of work done by
2 the general police station and the traffic security station?
3 A. Well, yes, of course. The traffic station saw to controlling
4 traffic and regulating traffic on the territory of the municipality, and
5 that was its prime function, although it also did some other work with
6 respect to public security.
7 Q. And what about the general Police Station of Prijedor?
8 A. According to our rules and regulations, the general police
9 station's job was to ensure law and order, to prevent crimes, to take into
10 custody the perpetrators of crimes, sometimes to regulate traffic, to
11 provide security for various meetings and gatherings, and everything else
12 provided for by the rules and regulations of the general police station
13 and public security station.
14 Q. Mr. Bujic, where was the seat or headquarters or building of the
15 general Police Station of Prijedor?
16 A. It was located in the centre of town in Prijedor.
17 Q. That general Police Station of Prijedor, was it located in the
18 same building as the other sectors of the Public Security Station of
19 Prijedor, such as the crime sector, legal sector, and financial sector?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Within the frameworks of the general Police Station of Prijedor,
22 were there any lower organisational units, subordinate ones?
23 A. I have just stressed that there were departments. They were the
24 lower organisational units within the composition of the general Police
25 Station of Prijedor.
1 Q. Could you repeat that again, please? Which departments existed
2 within the frameworks of the general Police Station of Prijedor?
3 A. The Police Department of Ljubija, the Police Department of
4 Kozarac, and the Police Department of Omarska.
5 Q. These three subsections, departments, were they a component part
6 of the general Police Station of Prijedor?
7 A. Yes, they were.
8 Q. Within the frameworks of the police force - and let us focus on
9 the uniformed police, just the uniformed police section - was there a
10 certain structure of leadership, commanders, as we say, commandeer?
11 A. Yes. The general police station --
12 Q. Does it exist or not?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. I should now like to ask you to take a look at chart number 3 that
15 you compiled for us. We're still speaking about the general Police
16 Station of Prijedor of May 1992; is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Who was at the head of the general Police Station of Prijedor?
19 Not his name, but the function.
20 A. It was headed by the commander.
21 Q. This commander, was he the individual who had a status of
22 superiority with respect to all the other policemen within the general
23 Police Station of Prijedor?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did that also apply to the policemen from the police station
1 departments, the police departments?
2 A. Yes. All the policemen, as well as the commanders of the police
3 departments, were subordinate to the commander of the general police
5 Q. We will come to that later on, although I can note that we omitted
6 from this chart the commander. But I think that we understand each
8 In this organisational structure, were there any other individuals
9 who had perhaps a different status of any kind? Underneath, below the
10 commander, were there other leaders?
11 A. Well, the commander had a deputy and a certain number of
12 assistants, depending on the work.
13 Q. You mentioned the deputy commander. What were the tasks of the
14 deputy commander of the police station, what did the deputy commander do?
15 A. In the absence of the commander, to perform the work of the
16 commander or to carry out assignments given to him by the commander.
17 Q. You mentioned assistants to the commander. Do you happen to
18 remember how many assistants the Prijedor general police station had?
19 A. I think it had three assistants.
20 Q. What areas of work did the assistant commanders cover? That is to
21 say, what did they do?
22 A. Traffic, one for traffic, one for crime, and one for public law
23 and order.
24 Q. Have I understood you correctly to say that the commander of the
25 general police station had an assistant for traffic affairs, an assistant
1 for public law and order and an assistant for crime? Is that right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. To whom were the assistants responsible and who did the assistants
5 A. The assistants assisted the commander and they were responsible to
6 the commander.
7 Q. In the chain of command in the police force, the hierarchy,
8 hierarchical system, whose status was superior, the deputy commander's or
9 the assistants'?
10 A. No, the deputy commander was superior.
11 Q. Within the general police station of Prijedor, did this commander
12 have any other individuals under him, subordinate to him? What about the
13 department commanders? Were they subordinate to him?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. With respect to the deputy commanders and the assistants, the
16 commanders of the police station departments, how did they figure in the
17 hierarchy? Were they subordinate?
18 A. They were at the level of assistant commanders and were not
19 considered to be -- this was not considered to be a post of leadership.
20 Q. Within the system of the general police station of Prijedor, were
21 there any other work posts which were different from the ordinary police
23 A. Well, yes. There were shift leaders.
24 Q. Can you tell us, to the best of your recollections, in 1992, how
25 many shift leaders there were in -- within the general Police Station of
2 A. There were four shift leaders.
3 Q. What about the other staff? Were they policemen?
4 A. Yes. They were police officers, policemen.
5 Q. Mr. Bujic, what do we mean when we say a police station
6 department? What does that mean, the department?
7 A. Well, when you had an area that was far off from the original
8 police station, and which by virtue of the number of inhabitants, or if it
9 lies in an industrial zone, for example, or if there was -- if crime was
10 rampant in the area, and the general police station was not able
11 adequately to cover that territory or area, then a certain number of
12 individuals would be assigned and dislocated or rather transferred to that
13 area as a sort of outpost, to perform police work in that area.
14 Q. The place of Kozarac, how far is Kozarac away from Prijedor?
15 A. It is at a distance of 11 kilometres.
16 Q. How many inhabitants did the Kozarac area have?
17 A. It had about 18.000 inhabitants.
18 Q. How far is Omarska from Prijedor?
19 A. 25 kilometres.
20 Q. In terms of geography and the number of inhabitants, is it
21 considered to be a large area?
22 A. Yes. However, there were fewer inhabitants there than in Kozarac.
23 Q. What about Ljubija? How far is Ljubija from Prijedor?
24 A. 12 kilometres, approximately.
25 Q. Was there any industrial complex there?
1 A. Yes. The Ljubija mine was located in that area.
2 Q. Would you please have a look at chart number 4 now? Though you
3 probably won't need the chart, since you can answer my questions from your
4 experience. You said a moment ago that you were the commander of the
5 police department both in Kozarac, until the beginning of 1990, and in
6 Omarska since the beginning of 1990. Did you have a deputy commander of
7 the police department?
8 A. Just a small correction: I went to Omarska in 1991. In response
9 to your question, no, I did not have a deputy.
10 Q. During those seven years that you spent as the commander of the
11 police department, did you ever have an assistant?
12 A. No, I did not.
13 Q. Within the overall system of organisation of the police
14 department, is there a provision for assistants to the commander?
15 A. No. There are no assistants to the commander.
16 Q. Let me ask the question once again. Within the system where you
17 worked, were there any assistants to the commander of the police
19 A. No. There was no provision for assistants to the commander of the
20 police department.
21 Q. Within the police station department, be it in Omarska, Ljubija or
22 Kozarac, in terms of structure of the unit, were there any shift
23 commanders, shift leaders?
24 A. No, there were not.
25 Q. I omitted to ask you something, and I have to go back a little.
1 Could you tell us what is the job of shift leaders in the general police
2 station, the one located in Prijedor? What is their duty?
3 A. In absence of the leaders, of the managerial staff, they were
4 responsible for all current affairs and the execution of all the usual
5 tasks and assignments in the area of the police station in question.
6 Q. You said that they were responsible for the execution of all of
7 the usual tasks. Those tasks would be given to them by whom?
8 A. The tasks are prescribed by the rules of service.
9 Q. Is there an individual, is there a person, who, acting pursuant to
10 the rules of service, can say so and so will be in charge of that
11 particular task?
12 A. Yes. That was the duty of the police station commander.
13 Q. If I understand you correctly, the police station commander is the
14 one who prepares the tasks that have to be executed and then they are
15 executed by the staff?
16 A. Yes, that is correct.
17 Q. The commander of the general police station, is he in charge of
18 giving assignments, giving tasks, to the police station departments which
19 are part of his police station?
20 A. Yes. It is the responsibility and the obligation of the commander
21 of the department to provide the commander of the overall police station
22 with the tasks that need to be carried out. And he has to go and see the
23 commander on a daily basis to see what tasks need to be carried out on
24 that particular day, and he has to report to him about the problems
25 relating to that particular area. That is the area where the necessary
1 tasks need to be performed.
2 Q. If I understand you correctly, the commander of the police
3 department has to draft a proposal of the assignments, the tasks that he
4 believes need to be done in the period of the current month, and who is
5 the person who finally issues the decision to that effect?
6 A. It is the commander of the police station.
7 Q. The commander of the police department, when he reports to his
8 commander, does he receive assignments and tasks for that particular day
9 on a daily basis?
10 A. The commander of the police department informs the overall
11 commander of the problems of the area, and in view of the situation, the
12 commander of the station then gives him the tasks to be carried out for
13 that particular day.
14 Q. Let me go back to the role of policemen, police officers in any
15 given police station department, Omarska or Kozarac. What were the work
16 obligations of the policemen who were assigned to work in a police station
18 A. First of all, a police station department, that is, the area of a
19 police station department, needed to be covered with the police force, and
20 in that respect assignments were distributed. There were usually two or
21 three sectors within one department; that is, the area was, territorially
22 speaking, divided in sectors, and police officers were assigned to a
23 public area and they would be responsible for execution of tasks in that
24 particular area.
25 Q. Would you please enumerate first of all the particular tasks that
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the English
14 and French transcripts.
1 they usually have.
2 A. There is the patrol service, the traffic safety service, security
3 service, and other services which are provided for in the rules of service
4 for the public security stations.
5 Q. You mentioned the patrol service. Let us talk about Omarska,
6 since that was your last post as the commander. How was the patrol
7 service organised in the police station department Omarska?
8 A. The Omarska Police Station department was divided up in three
9 sectors, and for each particular sector there was a sector, leader sector,
11 Q. Could you tell us what were the patrol sectors in the area of the
12 Omarska Police Station department?
13 A. We called them the 1st, the 2nd, and the 3rd patrol sector, and
14 each of them covered an area consisting of several villages.
15 Q. How were the patrol teams organised, the teams that carried out
16 their assignments in these sectors?
17 A. One policeman would be in charge of one sector. He had an
18 escort. He had -- he would have a partner, but that was not always the
19 same person.
20 Q. While you were in the Omarska Police Station department, did
21 policeman Miroslav Kvocka work there at the time?
22 A. Yes, he did.
23 Q. What was his position there?
24 A. He was the leader of the 3rd patrol sector.
25 Q. Can you remember who the leader of the 1st patrol sector was?
1 A. Zeljko Meakic.
2 Q. What about the third sector?
3 A. Grahovac, Ljuban was the leader of the 2nd patrol sector, whereas
4 Kvocka was the leader of the 3rd patrol sector.
5 Q. You mentioned partners.
6 A. Yes, I did.
7 Q. Let us take the example of the 1st patrol sector. Was it possible
8 for the leader of the sector -- was it possible for the leader of that
9 sector to be accompanied by a policeman who was the leader of another
10 patrol sector?
11 A. [No interpretation]
12 Q. Could you please repeat your answer. Was it possible for the
13 leader of one patrol sector to have an assignment in a different patrol
15 A. Yes, it was possible for them to patrol one particular sector, but
16 the leader of the patrol would be the person who is in charge of that
17 particular sector, which means that Zeljko Meakic could also patrol in the
18 sector of Miroslav Kvocka; however, Miroslav Kvocka would be the leader of
19 that particular patrol sector.
20 Q. You mentioned duty officers. What was the job of a duty officer?
21 A. He would be on duty at the police station. He would receive
22 information, such as reports from citizens, and he would be in contact
23 with the patrols in the area and also with the police station in Prijedor.
24 Q. Who was in charge of issuing assignments to the policemen who were
25 partners of the police -- of the patrol sector leaders?
1 A. That was done by the commander of the police station department in
3 Q. Who was in charge of drafting the duty service?
4 A. It was also the commander of the relevant police station
6 Q. Within one police station department, were there any policemen who
7 were in charge only of duties?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Who would usually be on duty? Who was assigned to do that by the
10 commander of the police station department?
11 A. All of the policemen who were there except for the leaders of
12 patrol sectors.
13 Q. You mentioned security affairs. What kind of assignments would
14 the police station department usually have in respect of that?
15 A. Very often there would be some kind of rallies or meetings
16 organised publicly, and the duty of that sector of the police station
17 department was to provide security during such rallies. The organiser was
18 supposed to prepare all the necessary documentation and to obtain
19 permission to convene a rally in advance, and once this was received by
20 the police station, then a plan would be drafted for providing security to
21 such an event.
22 Q. As regards the organiser of such an event or any similar
23 manifestation, did he have to have a permission to organise a rally?
24 A. Yes. He had to submit a request within 48 hours to the commander
25 of the public station, public security station, to be allowed to organise
1 such a rally, and he would have to provide all the necessary information
2 as to who would participate in the rally, whether he had all the necessary
3 facilities, including parking places, if the rally was supposed to take
4 place outside, whether he has organised medical protection for the
5 participants of the rally. And then once the permission is given, within
6 24 hours, he was supposed to -- he had to report to the police station and
7 to submit a request for them to provide security for such a rally.
8 Q. Let us go back to police station departments. Can you remember
9 the names of the policemen who worked in the police station department
10 while you were the commander there?
11 A. Yes. Ljuban Grahovac, Branko Modrinic, Zivko Kos, Miroslav
12 Kvocka, Mladjo Radic, Hamdija Arifagic. I don't know whether I've omitted
13 to mention anyone. That is what I can remember at the moment.
14 Q. You mentioned Mr. Meakic. Was he an employee there as well?
15 A. Yes, he was. I forgot to mention his name.
16 Q. Did Branislav Bojic work there as a policeman?
17 A. Yes, he did.
18 Q. Mr. Bujic, we have heard about an incident here involving a TV
19 transmitter on the Kozara Mountain. The transmitter in question, was it
20 in the area of responsibility of the Omarska Police Station department?
21 A. Yes, it was.
22 Q. Could you tell us about what happened?
23 A. I don't remember the exact date but I believe it was in the summer
24 of 1991. I came to work that morning, and I got a telephone call by the
25 chief of public security centre in Banja Luka, Stojan Zupljanin. He asked
1 me what had happened, what was knew, but I didn't know anything. Then he
2 asked me what was happening at the relay, at the transmitter, "There have
3 been some changes in the programme," and I didn't notice that. So he told
4 me to go to that place with a patrol and to see what was happening. I
5 don't know whether Ljuban Grahovac went with me. I think he did because
6 it was his area and I wasn't very familiar with the area. We went there.
7 We came to the transmitter, and I think that there was a guard there who
8 opened the door for us. We went to the first floor and we found the
9 people who were working there. We asked them if there were any problems
10 and they told us that there no problems whatsoever. But we didn't notice
11 anyone else there except for the people that we found in that building.
12 After that, we went back to the police station department, and on
13 our way back, we saw a police vehicle, an official police vehicle. We
14 stopped them, and we saw people there. Drago Vukisa was with them. He
15 was the chief of public security service in Banja Luka. There was another
16 person by the surname of Jahic who was an assistant to Stojan Zupljanin.
17 I noticed the two of them. They were there in the car with a driver, and
18 they asked me where we had been, and I told them. They continued. They
19 went over there to see what was happening.
20 Once we came back, I had to inform Zupljanin about what we had
21 seen. I went to Prijedor. I wrote a report which was signed by Talundzic
22 and eventually sent to the chief of the public security service centre in
23 Banja Luka.
24 Q. You mentioned Bajazit Jahic. You said he was an assistant to Mr.
25 Stojan Zupljanin. What was his nationality? What was his ethnic
2 A. He was a Muslim.
3 Q. You also mentioned Mr. Talundzic. What was his position at the
4 time this incident with the relay happened?
5 A. At the time, he was the chief of the public security station.
6 Q. In which town?
7 A. In Prijedor.
8 Q. Can you remember the contents of the report that you sent to Mr.
9 Zupljanin which was signed by the chief of the public security station,
10 Mr. Talundzic?
11 A. The contents of the report were what I just told you.
12 Q. Did you learn later on what happened at the relay?
13 A. No, I didn't.
14 Q. Mr. Bujic, while you worked at the police station, who was in
15 charge of assigning policemen to their respective positions? Who was in
16 charge of issuing decisions to that effect?
17 A. That was done by the minister.
18 Q. Minister of what?
19 A. The Minister of Interior Affairs.
20 Q. Where was the seat of that ministry?
21 A. In Sarajevo.
22 Q. Mr. Bujic, did anyone make proposals to the minister for his
23 decisions to that effect?
24 A. Well, of course, the minister didn't know us, so proposals were
25 given. I think in this case that they were given by the chief of the
1 public security station.
2 Q. Within the police, are it there any rules, any regulations
3 governing the conduct of policemen in particular situations?
4 A. Yes. That is provided for in the rules of service for public
5 security service, and other by-laws involving the organisation and the
6 structure of this service.
7 Q. This principle of legality, is it fully respected within the
8 police force?
9 A. The police service has a very strict system of hierarchy. It is
10 always exactly known. It is prescribed for, as to the persons who are
11 involved in the decision-making process.
12 Q. For the transcript, please, could you please slow down because
13 your answer hasn't been fully recorded. Let me put the question to you
14 once again. Within the police force and the system, was there great
15 emphasis on the principle of legality with respect to the operations of
16 the police?
17 A. Yes. There was a very firm chain of command, according to which
18 it was clearly specified who makes the decisions, on which authority, and
19 who has to carry out those decisions. This was very clearly specified.
20 Q. A moment ago, you said that the Minister of Internal Affairs would
21 sign decisions on appointments in the police force. Did this apply also
22 to senior police officers, heads of police stations, heads of departments,
23 and so on?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Who made decisions and how, as to the territorial organisation of
1 the police and their distribution in the municipalities of
3 A. Again it was the responsibility of the Ministry of Internal
4 Affairs of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
5 Q. Was anyone authorised in the municipality, at the municipal level,
6 to say, "I'm going to change the police structure and set up a new police
8 A. No. Nobody had that authority.
9 Q. Would any policeman familiar with the system of work of the police
10 force do such a thing?
11 A. He would not; nor could he do any such thing.
12 Q. Mr. Bujic, how did the police station department communicate with
13 the police station itself?
14 A. There were three possible ways of communication: By telephone, by
15 radio, and by personal contact.
16 Q. The commander of the police station, could he issue an order to
17 any policeman within the police station's jurisdiction?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Could any policeman in the police station department, should the
20 commander of the department be temporarily absent, could any policeman
21 then get in touch with the general police station and ask for their
23 A. That was how -- that was precisely how the work of police station
24 departments was organised. If the commander was absent, then the
25 policeman would contact the police station, that is, the police officers
1 on duty at the police station.
2 Q. During the weekend, when the commander of the police station
3 department is off, a problem occurs. What would be the reaction of the
4 policeman on duty in the police station department?
5 A. It is his duty to report to the shift leader in the police station
6 so that every effort should be made to resolve the problem.
7 Q. Was the shift leader duty-bound to inform the commander about that
8 problem should the problem be a major one?
9 A. Yes. If the problem cannot be resolved at that level, it is his
10 duty to inform the station commander, or the police station department
11 commander in certain cases.
12 Q. Was it possible for a policeman to find the commander of the
13 police station department by calling him up on his private telephone?
14 A. Yes, because he would have to give his suggestion as to how a
15 particular problem should be dealt with.
16 Q. Should a serious problem arise in the work of the patrol, which
17 may be ten kilometres away and the commander is not there, what would be
18 done, and the commander is not a member of that patrol?
19 A. I'm sorry. I didn't understand the question.
20 Q. The patrol is on duty. The leader of the patrol and his partner
21 accompanying him, but the commander, of course, is not with them.
22 Something happens. There's no deputy commander there. What would they
24 A. It is their obligation to contact the officer on duty in the
25 station to tell him what the problem is, and then the duty officers would
1 have to join in resolving the problem, and of course the station
2 commander, if necessary.
3 Q. The police station department, is it operational during the
4 weekend, when the commander is absent?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. How does it operate?
7 A. Well, everyone knows what his duty is. The sector leader makes
8 the plan, he knows what the duty shifts are, and the duty service is
9 organised in such a way that everyone knows what his duties are. And if
10 that is so, then it is natural for the commander to rest at home during
11 the weekend. But should a problem arise, I've already described how it
12 should be addressed.
13 Q. If the commander of the police station department is away on
14 annual leave, what happens then?
15 A. In that case, there must be an agreement with the commander of the
16 police station itself. If he allows me to take my annual leave, the
17 station commander takes over those activities and the duty service in the
18 police station. I have already said that everyone knows what he is to do,
19 there's a fixed timetable, and there would be no difficulty if no problems
21 Q. Should you go away on leave, would you, in agreement with the
22 commander of the general police station, prepare a programme of tasks and
23 assignments for the period of your absence?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did those timetables have an official name?
1 A. There would be a timetable for the patrol and for the duty
3 Q. But this plan of work, did it cover a particular period of time?
4 A. The sector leaders made monthly plans, but if a problem arises,
5 the plan may be upset. But the duty service also worked according to a
6 fixed timetable. It was clearly specified when the shift begins and when
7 it ends.
8 Q. According to the law in force, the rules and regulations in force,
9 could the commander of the police station say, "I'm going to nominate
10 Marko Markovic as deputy of -- as the commander of the police station
12 A. No, he could not.
13 Q. Did he have the authority to say, instead of an assistant who is
14 on leave, "I want to nominate a new assistant to replace him"?
15 A. That was all prescribed by the regulations.
16 Q. Did I understand you correctly: The laws and regulations
17 prescribed the procedure for nominations?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. If one of those persons outside the -- [No interpretation]
20 [Technical difficulty]
21 JUDGE RIAD: There's no translation. There's no translation in
23 THE REGISTRAR: Interpreters please check their booth.
24 THE INTERPRETER: One, two, three. There was a breakdown for a
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Have things been repaired now?
2 Are we working? I'm sorry. There was no interpretation. The English
4 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Your Honour. We can hear you.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: French booth?
6 THE INTERPRETER: [No interpretation]
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: I don't think so.
8 Mr. Simic, can you hear me?
9 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Yes, I'm getting
10 the interpretation now.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Can everyone hear now? The
12 accused as well? The witness, can you hear me?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So we can continue now. Thank
16 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. For a moment there was a power cut, so we have to go back to the
18 question that was taken down only halfway in the transcript.
19 If an official person who is not the minister, or somebody
20 authorised by him, were to nominate another person to a certain work post,
21 would that person thereby be committing a serious violation of the rules
22 in force?
23 A. The minister can authorise certain persons who may issue decisions
24 on his behalf.
25 Q. Yes, I understand that, but that was not my question. My question
1 was: If a person, who is not the minister and who was not been authorised
2 by the minister to make any such nominations, if such a person were to
3 decide to nominate someone, would he be violating the law in doing so?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Would that appointment be effective?
6 A. At certain points in time the commander of the police station may
7 send somebody to replace another person.
8 Q. No, but my question is the legitimacy of such decisions. You, as
9 the commander of the police station department, could you say, "I'm the
10 commander and I'm going to nominate my own deputy"? Could you say that?
11 A. No, I could not.
12 Q. Could anyone say that other than the minister or a person
13 authorised by the minister?
14 A. No.
15 Q. In your experience of many years, were there any such developments
16 that anybody would do such a thing?
17 A. No, not in my career.
18 Q. Mr. Bujic, as the commander of the police station department, were
19 you able to punish anyone?
20 A. No, I was not.
21 Q. And who had that authority?
22 A. The commander of the police station and his superiors.
23 Q. Was there a special procedure for that?
24 A. Yes, of course. There are disciplinary proceedings that are
25 initiated by the commander of the police station within whose jurisdiction
1 an offence has been committed.
2 Q. So the commander initiates disciplinary proceedings and presents
3 evidence whether an infringement has been made?
4 A. Yes. There's a disciplinary commission who conducts the
5 proceedings and establishes responsibility.
6 Q. Do you know who makes the final decision?
7 A. After the disciplinary commission has issued its report, then it
8 is the commander of the police station who makes the decision.
9 Q. Were you ever a member of the disciplinary commission?
10 A. No, I was not.
11 Q. Were any disciplinary proceedings ever conducted against you?
12 A. No.
13 Q. If an offence of a disciplinary nature were to be made by a person
14 in the crime sector, who would then take steps?
15 A. Again the disciplinary commission.
16 Q. On the basis of what?
17 A. Once the disciplinary commission has issued its report, the leader
18 of the organisational unit would make a decision.
19 Q. Could Ranko Mijic do that?
20 A. No. The disciplinary commission would instruct Ranko Mijic for a
21 particular person to be suspended, to be laid off for a couple of months
22 or whatever.
23 Q. But who would sign a decision to that effect, that somebody has
24 been found guilty of an offence and that he has to suffer the
1 A. In Prijedor, the commander of the police station.
2 Q. Is the police station within the framework of the public security
4 A. Yes, it is.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Bujic - excuse me for
6 interrupting you, Mr. Simic - in the case of a disciplinary offence by any
7 one of your policemen, could you address yourself to the competent
8 authorities to have him sanctioned?
9 A. No. The disciplinary commission would do that.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So, for instance, you knew that
11 somebody had made a disciplinary offence and the disciplinary commission
12 is not there, you don't say anything, and nobody learns about this
13 offence. Is that what we need to conclude? Please look at me when I'm
14 asking you this question.
15 A. I apologise, but could you repeat your question, please.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. One of your policemen
17 commits an offence of discipline, and you are the only one who is aware of
18 that offence. The disciplinary commission knows nothing about it. Are
19 you obliged to communicate that to the commission?
20 A. Yes. I have to tell the commission for it to be able to start
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I see. Thank you very much.
23 Mr. Simic, you may continue.
24 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. What is the form of those disciplinary reports? Would they be in
2 A. I said that I was never involved in disciplinary proceedings, nor
3 was I ever a subject of proceedings, so I think the report has to be
4 addressed to the disciplinary commission.
5 Q. Let me put it differently. In the course of your career as a
6 commander of the police station department, were you ever in a position to
7 submit disciplinary charges against a policeman member of your department?
8 A. No, I was never in that position, because the policemen did their
9 work properly and I never had any need to do that.
10 Q. Thank you. When did you leave the Omarska Police Station
12 A. In March 1992.
13 Q. What reserve police station did you go to in March 1992?
14 A. In the Rakelici Police Station department.
15 Q. And what post?
16 A. The post of commander, but I was demoted really because it could
17 be the level of a local community post that a peasant could perform in the
18 village, it was so low level.
19 Q. Did any other policeman from the police station department go to
20 another reserve police station?
21 A. Yes, I think so. Ljuban Grahovac who went to Lamovita.
22 Q. Who assigned you to this Rakelici reserve police station?
23 A. The chief of the public security station, Hasan Talundzic.
24 Q. What was he by ethnicity?
25 A. A Muslim.
1 Q. Was Mr. Grahovac treated in the same way, in the same manner?
2 A. I think so, yes.
3 Q. How long did you remain in the Rakelici reserve police station?
4 A. I think until the second half of 1993, when those police stations,
5 like Rakelici and others were disbanded, and that is when I left it.
6 Q. Mr. Bujic, when you went to Rakelici, that is the reserve police
7 station there, in the course of May, June, July and August, 1992, did you
8 have any contact with the Omarska Police Station department?
9 A. No. I did not. I had none.
10 Q. As a professional policeman, did you, on one occasion, visit the
11 Omarska camp, which you must have been aware of its existence?
12 A. The complex and the facility that was within the Omarska mining
13 complex is a place I never visited, before those events, while the
14 detention centre was there, nor afterwards. So I'm not familiar with that
15 complex at all. I never went there.
16 Q. You mentioned that you were born in Cela; is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did you know the hodza in Cela?
19 A. Yes, I knew two hodzas, two Muslim priests. One was there before
20 all this happened, and the other one was in Cela throughout this period,
21 and I cooperated with him. He was a representative of their authorities.
22 Q. Did you know a person in Cela called Mevludin Zelenkic?
23 A. Yes. He was the son of the hodza and he went to elementary school
24 with me. He came to Cela, though he's not a native.
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, excuse me for
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the English
14 and French transcripts.
1 interrupting you. How much more time would you need with this witness,
3 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Another five minutes, Your
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Fine. So let us finish, if
6 possible, before the break.
7 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Do you know where Mr. Mevludin Zelenkic spent a part of 1993 and
10 A. I didn't see him around in Cela like the other locals, but I
11 learned quite recently that he was staying with Kvocka's family, and that
12 he spent a year or 18 months there.
13 Q. Who did you hear that from?
14 A. I learned it from Kvocka's bother-in-law Adnan and from Kvocka's
16 Q. Did you have occasion to meet Mevludin Zelenkic?
17 A. No. I have not had occasion to meet with him.
18 Q. And finally, you were the commander of a police station
19 department. So could you tell us, in three or four sentences, the
20 description of a person whose commander you were? That is Mr. Miroslav
22 A. Miroslav Kvocka was the first generation that graduated from
23 regular police academy. He was an excellent pupil and a highly
24 conscientious, responsible and good policeman. He performed all his
25 assignments very well and on time. He cooperated very closely with the
1 local people of his area, so it was not difficult for him to discover any
2 offence or address any problem. He was highly communicative and he was
3 very popular among the locals. I can also say, in support of this, that I
4 think it was in the 1980s or even before, that Kvocka, as an excellent
5 policeman, was proposed and appointed to position in our embassy in France
6 and another of our policemen, I think, went to Vienna, Aziz Rascan.
7 I never had any problems with this person, and I have nothing to
9 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.
10 That completes my examination in chief of this witness.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you very
12 much, Mr. Simic. So we are now going to have a break. And could the
13 usher accompany the witness outside, please?
14 And now we will have a half-hour break.
15 [The witness withdrew]
16 --- Recess taken at 10.59 a.m.
17 --- On resuming at 11.35 a.m.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.
19 Mr. Usher, please have the witness escorted into the courtroom.
20 [The witness entered court]
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Bujic, you will now be
22 answering questions put to you by -- no. I beg your pardon.
23 For the record, are there any questions from the other Defence
24 counsels? No. Thank you for drawing my attention to that.
25 Mr. Bujic, you will now be answering questions put to you by the
1 Prosecution in the person of Mr. Waidyaratne.
2 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Cross-examined by Mr. Waidyaratne:
4 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Bujic.
5 A. Good afternoon.
6 Q. Mr. Bujic, when did you first take up your appointment as a
8 A. The 1st of March, 1974.
9 Q. As a policeman.
10 A. I attended a six-month police course, and after that I began
11 working as a policeman.
12 Q. Where were you assigned to?
13 A. The police station of Prijedor.
14 Q. Mr. Bujic, you, in great detail and patience, explained to the
15 Chamber the structure of the police today. Could you tell me as to why
16 did the Prijedor Police Station need this hierarchy with different levels
17 of commanders? Was it due to the heavy load of work?
18 A. It was regulated by the law on internal affairs, in that way.
19 Q. I don't think you understood me. Was it due to the amount of
21 A. No, not the work. That was the hierarchy set up and organisation
22 in the organs of the interior.
23 Q. Mr. Bujic, you spoke at certain stages about rules and
24 regulations. Could you tell us as to what these rules and regulations
25 are, when you spoke with regard to the positions and post of commanders
1 and how they were appointed and as to what tasks they did and how they
2 did? What are these rules?
3 A. It is the law on internal affairs, the rules and regulations on
4 public security, and the organisation and systemisation within the
5 frameworks of the public security station.
6 Q. When did you last read these rules?
7 A. Well, I read those rules for as long as I was in service.
8 Q. During the time of war, did these rules -- was it in effect or was
9 it used?
10 A. Yes. Those rules were in force during those events, before and
11 after. Nothing changed in the rules and their application.
12 Q. And you also made a comment, saying that no one was authorised to
13 set up or change the police force or new stations. Can you tell us as to
14 who authorised the takeover of Prijedor by the Serb authorities in 1992?
15 A. Well, according to the rules, reserve police stations were
16 activated at the beginning of 1992, and this referred to the organisation
17 and takeover -- well, actually, I don't know who was authorised to take
19 Q. Mr. Bujic, in April 1992, you were commander of a police station
20 at Rakelici; am I correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. On the 30th of April, 1992, were you informed on or before that,
23 were you informed or did you know anything about this changeover?
24 A. In the course of the night, sometime around 10.00 - I don't
25 remember exactly - I was given an assignment to bring the policeman that I
1 had at my disposal to Prijedor.
2 Q. Who gave you that assignment?
3 A. I received the assignment from the service on duty in Prijedor.
4 Q. Could you tell any personnel or person who asked you to do this
6 A. I don't remember who was there at the time.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Waidyaratne, I apologise,
8 but I'm sure you will remember that we were talking about the conflict
9 which is an established adjudicated fact and we received judicial notice
10 thereof, with respect to the police in Omarska as well. So I should just
11 like to bring that to your attention. We are not discussing the conflict
12 here, as you know, because we have taken judicial notice of that. So I
13 think you should proceed to the question, definite questions. Just to
14 remind you of this judicial notice.
15 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Your Honour, please bear with me. I was
16 attempting to see the knowledge -- or as to what knowledge this person had
17 with regard to that event. Thank you.
18 Q. Mr. Bujic, before we leave that area, another question, one
19 question more: Are you saying that the reserve police stations were
20 activated in order to plan for the takeover of Prijedor?
21 A. No. Part of the reserve formation was activated in 1991 because
22 of the situation that occurred in the former Yugoslavia, or rather in
23 neighbouring Croatia, so that they helped the regular policemen in
24 performing their task, these reserve forces.
25 Q. Mr. Bujic, you know the person by the name of Simo Drljaca?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. In May, 1992, did Mr. Drljaca have power to nominate commanders,
3 deputy commanders?
4 A. That was done before Simo Drljaca. And I have already said when
5 individuals went to the reserve police stations in May, I don't know what
6 Simo Drljaca did.
7 Q. I'm just asking you because you said it was the minister and on
8 recommendation that it would be done. I'm asking would a person like Mr.
9 Drljaca -- whether he could do such an appointment.
10 A. At that time, the nationalistic parties were rampant and there was
11 a division in the police force as well, and in a way, a Muslim police
12 force was formed and a Serbian police force. They sort of separated into
13 these two groups.
14 Q. So what you're trying to say is that a person like Mr. Drljaca
15 could make such an appointment?
16 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection. That could not have
17 even been intimated.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Simic, I apologise.
19 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] My learned colleague has made an
20 assertion and said so what you're trying to say is that a person like Mr.
21 Drljaca could make such an appointment. I don't know where he gets the
22 right to put leading questions in that way, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Waidyaratne, could you
24 reformulate your question, please? Ask a direct question. Go ahead.
25 MR. WAIDYARATNE:
1 Q. As Mr. Simic as already answered for the witness and the witness
2 has heard as to what he has to say, I would do so, Your Honour.
3 Could you clear up what you said earlier? You said if I may read,
4 "At that time, the nationalistic parties were rampant and there was a
5 division in the police force as well, and in a way, a Muslim police force
6 was formed and a Serbian police force. They sort of separated into these
7 two groups." What did you mean? My question was very clear, whether a
8 person, Mr. Drljaca, could make appointments of deputy commanders,
10 A. I have already said that all the legal documents applied during
11 the events as well as before and after events, and so, according to those
12 rules, it was common knowledge what Mr. Drljaca could or could not do, was
13 authorised or not authorised to do, according to those rules.
14 Q. Mr. Bujic, is it correct if I say that in the morning, during your
15 direct examination, and even now, what you're trying to say is a position
16 which was, in fact -- it was a de jure position, a theoretical situation;
17 am I correct?
18 A. Well, no. It was the actual state of affairs, and those affairs
19 were regulated by legal documents which provided for the type of conduct
20 that was to be enforced.
21 MR. WAIDYARATNE: May I, Your Honour, at this stage provide the
22 witness a document which has been already admitted by the Defence, Mr.
23 Simic, marked number D40/1? May it be given to the witness? I would give
24 copies of the document to the Chamber.
25 Q. Mr. Bujic, please look at the document. Is it dated? It's dated
1 28 or 29 May, 1992, am I correct? Or 28 May, 1992?
2 A. The 28th.
3 Q. And it says, "On the basis of your communication of the above
4 number and date, we hereby submit to you the following details." Leaving
5 out the first couple of items, please give your mind to number 7:
6 "The commander of the station is in Bosanska Gradiska prison.
7 The deputy commander runs that station, while the assistant is in the
8 collection centre."
9 Am I correct? Is it stated there?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And item number 8 says:
12 "The new war structure anticipates 13 police stations plus police
13 stations for road safety and traffic control."
14 Is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Number 9:
17 "The war structure anticipates 1.342 members in general police
18 stations and 52 members in the road safety station. Of that number, 1.214
19 should be reserve and 180 active police officers."
20 Is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. The last paragraph:
23 "The previous war structure anticipated 630 policemen. The new
24 war structure which is functioning now was prepared during secret
25 preparations for the takeover. It is believed that this war structure can
1 ensure the successful performance of police duties and tasks."
2 And signed by the chief of public security station, Simo Drljaca;
3 am I correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now, could you explain or could you comment on this war structure,
6 what is being discussed here? Are you aware of these war structures?
7 A. The existing regulations meant that a reserve police station
8 should be activated in extraordinary circumstances, circumstances of
9 crisis, imminent danger and war, which means that according to the
10 situation, a certain number of members of the reserve police force were to
11 be activated.
12 Q. Did you know anything about this secret preparation of the
13 takeover? As a police commander, were you aware of such situations?
14 A. No. I was not aware of anything like that.
15 Q. Then, Mr. Bujic, just to make certain other clarifications, you
16 said -- you spoke about the hierarchical system which prevailed at the
17 time you spoke about. If a commander of a police station department
18 leaves the police station for sometime, and if other than the task which
19 has been assigned to them, another or something else comes up, who would
20 take the decision in a situation as such?
21 A. In view of the fact that in the police department, there is no
22 deputy, then the -- there is a duty officer, a duty service in the station
23 responsible for that. There is the police station commander and the
24 deputy commander at the police station. And so, if the police department
25 commander was absent, it is the person at the police station who would be
1 in charge.
2 Q. You also spoke about the duties of a policeman, and you said that
3 at any -- all times, that they were -- had a duty to prevent any crime
4 which is known to them or within its -- according to their knowledge. Am
5 I correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. There was no jurisdictional restrictions. Mr. Bujic, we will come
8 to the area of your police station, Rakelici. Am I pronouncing the name
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Could you kindly tell the Chamber as to what areas or villages
12 this police station had to overlook or cover?
13 A. They are the villages of Cela, Milakovci [phoen], Gacine [phoen],
14 Pejici, Sanicani, Rakelici, Busnovi, and Tomasica.
15 Q. Mr. Bujic, you are a person from that area, if I may say; is it
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Because you said "Cela."
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Could you tell us as to what the ethnic composition of Cela is?
21 A. Ninety-five per cent were Muslims. The rest were Croats and
23 Q. The village of Gomjenica, could you tell us as to what the ethnic
24 composition is?
25 A. It was a mixed population. I think that there were less Muslims
1 and more Serbs perhaps, or 50/50.
2 Q. Now, in 1992 you were -- you said that you were transferred to
3 this police station; am I correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And you said that you didn't like this transfer. Could you tell
6 us as to why?
7 A. At the beginning I wasn't very satisfied because it meant
8 demotion. I was degraded with respect to my experience and qualities. I
9 thought that I was able to do a more responsible job. But when I
10 completed my duties, I can say that I was happy that I was, in fact, sent
11 to that area.
12 Q. You considered it as a demotion, but in fact there was no such
13 thing. You had the same salary, the same grade; am I correct? It was not
14 a punishment or a demotion, but you considered it as a demotion.
15 A. Well, the salary did remain the same, although it wasn't a good
16 salary and we didn't always get it regularly. But those were my personal
17 feelings; I personally felt that to be the case.
18 Q. Mr. Bujic, and you were in your own village, if I may say so; am I
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. In April, after the takeover of the Prijedor municipality by the
22 Serb authorities, and in the month of May, June, could you tell us as to
23 what happened to the Muslim community or the people who lived in the
24 police area that you overlooked, especially Cela and Gomjenica.
25 A. With those people, during that period of time until the end of
1 1992, and in 1993, nothing of any significance ever happened. In the area
2 where I worked together with my police force and the reserve police force,
3 I had a very difficult and very specific task. We -- in the area where
4 there was this Muslim village, the village of Cela, which had over 300
5 households and 2.000 inhabitants at that time, in a situation where a lot
6 of people were under arms and beyond any control, those people needed
7 safety and security. Security had to be provided for that portion of the
8 population. And I believe that in view of the circumstances, that task
9 was successfully completed.
10 Q. Now, Mr. Bujic, you're telling this Chamber that the Muslim
11 community in Cela was protected and nothing happened to them. What
12 happened to their property, the houses?
13 A. Yes. Their properties were saved. Over 90 per cent of the houses
14 remained whole. One part of the Muslim population remained there and the
15 remaining Muslims intended to come back in the -- during the next spring.
16 Q. Mr. Bujic, were the houses burned and destroyed in Cela, more than
17 90 per cent of the houses of the Muslim community, in the police area that
18 you were the commander?
19 A. No. No. I don't know if you understand me. 95 per cent of the
20 houses have been saved, intact. Not a single house has been destroyed.
21 Q. What happened to the Muslim people who stayed, who were the
22 residents in Cela? Are they still there?
23 A. The Muslims who were inhabitants of the village of Cela could stay
24 on as long as they wanted. Those who wished to leave left. Some of them
25 left for family reasons, some because of the economic situation, but many
1 Muslims remained in Cela. As long as they were there, they were
2 protected, and not a single Muslim was harmed in any way during that
3 period of time.
4 Q. Mr. Bujic, were any Muslims taken into custody during these
6 A. In that area there were things that needed to be done. I had
7 certain requests from the army and the police, but I had to cooperate with
8 Muslims from the local authorities and the local police. Ekrem Jakovic
9 and others came to see me at the police station, and we tried to see how
10 the job could be done without any harm and any problems.
11 Q. Mr. Bujic, I asked a very direct question. You were not clear.
12 That's why I have to repeat this question. Were Muslims taken into
13 custody by --
14 A. Yes. A certain number of people, according to the lists that were
15 with the military police who came to the area one day, and between 10 and
16 15 people were taken away. They needed to be interrogated. But that
17 number was not necessary. Those people did not have to be investigated in
18 any way. But they were taken by the members of the military police. And
19 as soon as I found out about that, I went to the police station in
20 Prijedor and I found most of them in detention, in custody, in the
21 detention centre, which was situated downstairs. So Adil Solo, Ekrem
22 Jakupovic and Ivan Bagic were taken, together with some others, but those
23 three were returned by me to the village of Cela. I think that Suljo
24 Ceric and another person by the surname of Ceric stayed on. I didn't find
25 them at that particular moment but they were eventually released as well.
1 So I don't think any inhabitants of this village ended in one of the
2 investigation centres.
3 Q. Mr. Bujic, do you know a person by the name of Mesud Edhemovic
4 from Cela? Was he taken into custody by you and is he still missing from
5 that day?
6 A. As regards the military police, they took into custody Mesud
7 Edhemovic. I know him personally. When that happened, I didn't know -- I
8 don't know where Mesud is at the moment, although I have seen his brother
9 in the meantime, but we never discussed this.
10 Q. Mr. Bujic, I'm sorry, I have to go back to 1991. You, in your
11 direct examination, referred to an incident with regard to going to the
12 transmitter in the Mount Kozarac for an investigation on the order of
13 Stojan Zupljanin; am I correct? Do you recall that?
14 A. No, I didn't go there with Stojan Zupljanin. It was pursuant to
15 his order that I went to the transmitter.
16 Q. That's what I meant. I'm sorry if you misunderstood. Why did you
17 go there? For what?
18 A. I went there because I wanted to see what was happening.
19 Q. You said that you didn't know anything until Mr. Zupljanin called
20 you. Did he inform you as to why you should go there, and why did you go
21 there? What did you observe? What was the information given to you?
22 A. I didn't know what was going on. I have already said that the
23 area was 30 kilometres away from my house in Omarska, so I was not very
24 familiar with the area, and I didn't know what was happening.
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, Mr. Bujic, to
1 interrupt you, but the question that the Prosecutor asked was simply the
2 following: Did Mr. Zupljanin ask you to go there and to see what was
3 happening, and whether he informed you about the reasons why you had to go
4 there? Will you please answer the question.
5 A. Yes, he did, but he didn't tell me what the reasons were.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So he didn't give you any
7 reasons for that. He simply asked you to go there and to see if there was
8 anything unusual happening. Was that the case?
9 A. Yes, that is correct.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Waidyaratne, please
12 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you.
13 Q. When you went there, did you find out anything, whether anything
14 has happened or was going to happen?
15 A. No. It wasn't possible for me to find out anything on my own, so
16 I simply asked the people whom I found there what was happening. They
17 said, "Nothing. It's business as usual." I didn't actually enter the
18 premises, and that was the only piece of information that I had and with
19 which I came back.
20 Q. And you said that when you went to the Mount Kozarac transmitter
21 you took only Ljuban Grahovac, am I correct, with you?
22 A. I don't know exactly who it was, but because he was familiar with
23 the area and I wasn't, I probably took Ljuban, so he may have come with
24 me. But I'm not a hundred per cent sure.
25 Q. Mr. Ljuban Grahovac, his ethnicity. Was he a Serb?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. On the 30th of April, when the takeover of Prijedor -- during the
3 takeover, what did you do? Where were you?
4 A. I have already said that I was informed at about 10.00 in the
5 evening to bring the police officer I had at my disposal to Prijedor,
6 which I did, and we did not take any active part in the actual takeover,
7 but the next morning at 10.00 we were ordered to provide security to the
8 Kozarski Vjesnik paper, and which is what I did, with my men, and after
9 that I went back to the station.
10 Q. And did you actively take part in guard duty or provide any
11 security during that for the Kozarski Vjesnik paper?
12 A. No. That was carried out by police officers until the 5th of May,
13 until one of the policemen was injured in an explosion, and after that we
14 went back to our place of duty.
15 Q. Mr. Bujic, you said that you never went to the Omarska mine
16 complex; am I correct? Did I get you correct?
17 A. Yes, you're correct.
18 Q. It is the biggest industrial complex in that area; am I correct?
19 A. Yes, it is.
20 Q. It was in your police area when you served in the Omarska police
21 station; am I correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. In 1992, were you aware that people were detained at the Omarska
24 police station -- mine, or the camp?
25 A. Yes. I learned at one point in time that a certain number of
1 people were being detained in Omarska.
2 Q. When did you learn that, if I may ask?
3 A. I don't know exactly when it was. Sometime in the summer of 1992.
4 Q. Mr. Bujic, you were a commander of the Rakelici Police Station,
5 you had communication, you knew what was happening. Were you not informed
6 as to what had taken place at the Omarska investigation centre?
7 A. No, I was not informed of that. I didn't have any contacts in
8 that respect, nor did I have to inform myself.
9 Q. You were very concerned about the Muslim community in your area,
10 according to what you said today. Do you know whether anybody from your
11 police area were taken to the Omarska camp?
12 A. I think that nobody was taken to the Omarska camp, according to
13 the information that I have.
14 Q. From your police area, that's what you're trying to say, am I
16 A. Yes, yes.
17 Q. That is the information that you have?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. Before I will leave that area, I will ask you a question. When
20 did you get that information about the people being detained at the
21 Omarska camp, that you can recall?
22 A. In the month of June.
23 Q. Did you at any time visit the Keraterm ceramics factory during the
24 month of May, end of May and August, 1992?
25 A. No, I did not.
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the English
14 and French transcripts.
1 Q. Did you know that people were detained at the Keraterm tile
2 factory, ceramics factory?
3 A. I did learn about that.
4 Q. This Keraterm tile factory was on the main road from Prijedor to
5 Banja Luka; am I correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did you know as to why these people were detained in these two
8 places, Keraterm and Omarska?
9 A. I didn't know, but I think that it was after the 30th of May, when
10 Muslims attacked Prijedor. I think that after that, some people were
11 taken into custody for the purposes of being interrogated.
12 Q. You spoke about Miroslav Kvocka, and I'm not reminding you of the
13 recommendation that you gave. You said that he was a leader of the third
14 sector, am I correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And you said that he was a very straightforward, hard-working
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Mr. Bujic, to be appointed the leader of the third sector, what
20 qualifications or criteria do you look for? On what basis are they ...
21 A. He had better abilities and qualities than other police officers,
22 in terms of carrying out his tasks and duties, which he accomplished
23 faster and with better quality than others, and that made it possible for
24 him to become a sector leader.
25 Q. So Mr. Kvocka had the qualities to become a sector leader. This
1 is what you're trying to say?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And Mr. Bujic, a sector leader, what area -- or what did he have
4 to do in the course of his duties?
5 A. His duties were to go out in the field, to meet the people, the
6 locals, to check on the situation out there in the field, to try and
7 prevent the commission of crimes, to see to the law and order in the area,
8 and to collect all the necessary information and everything else in
9 accordance with the rules and regulations.
10 Q. And he also has to take --
11 [Technical difficulties]
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I understand your that the
13 English translation and the B/C/S translation were not the same. Will you
14 please continue? There seems to have been a problem in the translation.
15 Q. So Mr. Kvocka was trained and knew, had the knowledge, had the
16 experience, to see, to prevent crime and to take steps when crime was
17 being committed during the time that he served as a policeman?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. For instance, if Mr. Kvocka, as a third sector leader, saw some
20 crime being committed or was notified about crime, what would he have to
21 do? What steps would he take as a sector leader, or even as a normal
23 A. It depends on the gravity of the criminal offence. If the crime
24 in question is a theft, then perhaps he can do it himself. However, in
25 cases of more serious offences, he would have to call the police, the
1 crime department, who would then take the necessary steps.
2 Q. A basic, simple example. If Mr. Kvocka sees a person being beaten
3 by another, he could prevent it and take steps against the person, the
4 aggressor or the assailant? Could he do that?
5 A. Yes, if it is possible for him to intervene successfully.
6 MR. WAIDYARATNE: If Your Honour will bear with me. Thank you.
7 Q. Mr. Bujic, if -- going back to about the duties of a policeman, if
8 he can not intervene -- you said if he can not intervene. Should he not
9 report that crime or the act which has taken place?
10 A. If it is not possible for him to react, then he should call for
11 assistance as soon as possible so that he can receive help in dealing with
12 a case like that.
13 Q. Thank you, Mr. Bujic. Mr. Bujic, did you -- were you at any time
14 found guilty by any court, during say, for instance, 1970 and 1990?
15 A. Yes. From the court in Prijedor. As a policeman, I fired my
16 weapon accidentally during a wedding, and I was punished.
17 Q. When was that, Mr. Bujic?
18 A. I don't remember exactly when it was. It may have been in 1978 or
20 Q. And what was the punishment?
21 A. I had a prison sentence of three months, and then later on, in a
22 decree issued by the president, I was pardoned.
23 Q. Was anybody injured during that incident?
24 A. Yes, because the bullet ricocheted and two people were grazed by
25 the bullet.
1 Q. I'm sorry, Mr. Bujic, when did this happen? You were a policeman
2 during that time because you joined the police in 1974. Which year did
3 this happen?
4 A. Well, I told you I don't remember exactly when it was, in 1978 or
5 in 1980, but I was a police officer at the time.
6 Q. And who is the president who granted you that presidential
8 A. The president of Bosnia and Herzegovina. I don't know. I don't
9 remember who it was at the time.
10 Q. You can't remember the name. A presidential pardon?
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Waidyaratne, maybe you
12 should ask when.
13 MR. WAIDYARATNE: I asked that question, when. He's
14 unable -- he's not specific. That's why I asked for the name.
15 Q. This is a very special situation, a presidential pardon to a
16 policeman. You can't remember the name of the person. Very well. I will
18 What happened to the person who was injured?
19 A. An ambulance arrived and they were taken in that ambulance and
20 later they were returned home.
21 Q. And there were serious injuries; am I correct?
22 A. No. The injuries were light.
23 [Prosecution counsel confer]
24 MR. WAIDYARATNE:
25 Q. Mr. Bujic, before I conclude: The only presidential pardon that
1 you got, you can't remember the president who granted you that special
2 presidential pardon?
3 A. I think it was Rato Dugonjic.
4 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour. That concludes the
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
7 Mr. Simic, any re-examination?
8 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I have several
10 Re-examined by Mr. K. Simic:
11 Q. Mr. Bujic, let me start from the end, or rather the last question
12 by Mr. Waidyaratne. [Microphone not activated] -- system we come from,
13 was it customary, on the occasion of state holidays, pardons to be
14 granted, either by the president of the Republic or the president of the
16 A. Yes, exactly. That was how I was pardoned.
17 Q. Were these collective pardons?
18 A. Yes, they were. A whole group of people will be pardoned at the
19 same time.
20 Q. Mr. Bujic, when you were talking about the criteria for the
21 appointment of a person to a particular patrol sector, was one of the
22 criteria the years of service?
23 A. Not necessarily for a person to be appointed to a leader of a
24 patrol sector. Even a beginner with abilities could be appointed.
25 Q. Was one of the criteria to select a person coming from the area,
1 if possible?
2 A. Yes, indeed. The selection was made of local people, as that
3 would facilitate their work in the future.
4 Q. What about the native village? Was the native village of
5 Mr. Kvocka a part of his patrol sector?
6 A. Yes. As far as I know, I think he was a native of that area.
7 Q. You said that you had secondary school and two-year post-secondary
8 education school for administration; is that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Was it customary for commanders and deputies to have a higher
11 education in the organogram for the police force?
12 A. Yes. In principle, that should have been so.
13 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I have no
14 further questions.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Judge
16 Riad, do you have any questions? No questions. Thank you very much.
17 Judge Wald.
18 Questioned by the Court:
19 JUDGE WALD: Thank you. I have a few questions. First let me ask
20 you on the document that the Prosecutor showed you, D40, dealing with the
21 wartime structure for police in the area and signed by Mr. Drljaca. Do
22 you have that in front of you still? If so, could -- would the usher --
23 A. No, I don't have it.
24 JUDGE WALD: -- bring that over, D40. I just want to ask you one
25 question about that. Do you have it in front of you or ...
1 A. Yes.
2 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Item 7 says:
3 "The commander of the station," and I think that means, the way I
4 read it, the public security station, "is in Bosanska Gradiska prison.
5 The deputy commander runs the station while the assistant is in the
6 collections centre."
7 I simply want to know whether or not you know the -- who those
8 people are that are referred to that, that the commander of the station is
9 in prison. Do you know who that commander was, just the name?
10 A. I don't know exactly. I know that Fikret Kadiric used to be the
11 commander of the station. Whether this refers to him or somebody else,
12 I'm not sure.
13 JUDGE WALD: And you didn't know that a commander of the station
14 was in prison? At the time you didn't -- at the time you --
15 A. No.
16 JUDGE WALD: Is the gentleman that you just referred to a Muslim
17 or Croat or a Serb, the one that you think --
18 A. A Muslim.
19 JUDGE WALD: Okay. All right. Now, it says: "The assistant is
20 in the collections centre." Do you know who that was, who they were
21 referring to there?
22 A. I don't know.
23 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you. Now, you were asked several
24 questions by the Prosecutor about the duties of a policeman, and certainly
25 you have had a great deal of experience in commanding police departments,
1 department stations. I have a few questions along the same line. Did
2 your policemen, in any of the places that you served as commander, whether
3 it was Omarska or the one that you went to subsequently, did any of them
4 ever have occasion to arrest people, I mean, if they saw a crime being
5 committed or if they were sent to make arrests of people, the policemen?
6 I'm now not talking about war crimes or anything, just regular arrests of
8 A. No. Actually, there were such cases, of course. I spent some
9 time in the area of Kozarac, and as there was a lot of crime there, we
10 would often go and arrest the perpetrators.
11 JUDGE WALD: Right. So when you arrested people, did you bring
12 them to the local police station? Were they held for a period of time
13 there? Or did you take them and immediately take them over to some other
14 division like corrections or something? In other words, did your
15 policemen have the duty to guard those prisoners, even for a brief period
16 of time, before they were turned over to anyone else? Did you have
17 lock-ups in the police station where they were kept?
18 A. In the department I was working in, there were no lock-ups, so
19 persons were not held there. But if, out of caution, a person needed to
20 be transported by the Black Maria, we would hold him there until the
21 vehicle arrived to take him to the detention unit in Prijedor.
22 JUDGE WALD: If one of your policemen were guarding a prisoner,
23 even for the brief period of time that you talked about, would that
24 policeman, in your opinion as a commander, would that policeman have a
25 duty to protect that person against somebody else assaulting them? For
1 instance, if another person on the street came and tried to, after the
2 arrest had been made, tried to hit or grab that person, or even - well,
3 let me put it that way - would your policemen have a duty, in your
4 opinion, to protect the person that had just been arrested from being
5 assaulted by somebody on the street who was mad at him for any reason, as
6 part of his police duties?
7 A. The task of a policeman is not only to guard the perpetrator so
8 that he doesn't escape, but also to make sure he is safe and that no one
9 else should attack him or assault him or hurt him in any way.
10 JUDGE WALD: I believe that's universal, but I wanted to hear it
11 from you. Now, would that also apply -- and I know this is a theoretical,
12 but suppose you had a policeman who made an arrest of somebody for
13 whatever reasons, and then another policeman, another policeman came along
14 who, whether he was under the influence of alcohol or for whatever
15 reasons, tried to attack this particular person who had been arrested,
16 what would the duty of the first policeman who had made the arrest be?
17 A. The first policeman would have to ensure his security, and the
18 regulations strictly prescribe when physical force or any other device or
19 any other action may be taken against a person held in custody.
20 JUDGE WALD: All right. Thank you very much.
21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Judge
24 I should like to go back to this document D40/1. If you read
25 paragraph 8 - I have the document in English - it says that the new war
1 structure anticipates 13 police stations. My question is: This is a
2 document that was drafted by Simo Drljaca of the public security station
3 in Prijedor. How many police stations did Prijedor have before the 28th
4 of May, 1992?
5 A. Before the 28th of May, 1992, all the reserve police stations were
6 activated. I don't know the exact number but I could list them. Whether
7 that amounts to 13, or more or less, I can't tell you exactly.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I had the impression that what
9 had changed was the number of reserve police officers. Is that correct or
11 A. Yes, it is.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So I should like to ask you
13 something. What does paragraph 9 mean?
14 [In English] "The war structure anticipates 1.342 members in
15 general police stations and 52 members in the road safety station. Of
16 that number, 1.214 should be reserve and 180 active police officers."
17 [Interpretation] So was there a change also with regard to the
18 number of active-duty officers?
19 A. Yes. A number of active policemen of Muslim ethnicity in those
20 days left the police station in Prijedor and, as a result, the number of
21 policemen in the Prijedor Police Station was reduced automatically.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Another question I
23 have for you is the following: I think I understood you say that the
24 criteria for establishing a police department were the distance from the
25 headquarters, and also the number of inhabitants or some particular
1 properties. For example, Kozarac had 18.000 inhabitants, Omarska had
2 fewer inhabitants, and then again the Ljubija mines.
3 Imagine the following: You had Omarska with thousands of people
4 arriving there. Would the same security structure be maintained or should
5 it have changed?
6 A. I'm not familiar with the situation in Omarska at the time.
7 However, depending on the situation, if a certain number of policemen
8 cannot provide adequate security, then they should seek assistance. How
9 that will be provided depends. There are several possibilities: To
10 address themselves to another police station for assistance, or to
11 increase the number of officers.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, but I'm not asking you
13 whether you know what happened, but you spoke a lot about the rules and
14 regulations. So I'm asking you the question in terms of the rules. If
15 there is an exceptionally large number of people coming in a group in a
16 certain place, and they are there, day and night, for weeks, for months,
17 how do the rules deal with such an occurrence?
18 A. Then the work of the officers would be divided up into shifts, so
19 some would be on duty and others would be on call.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Would it not be possible to
21 find oneself in a situation when the criteria which dictate the need for
22 an assistant commander or a deputy commander could be applied in this
23 particular case in view of the quantity of work, the number of persons
24 present? Could that be decisive for having a deputy commander and
25 possibly assistants for different police departments? Because what we
1 have here is a situation when you have an enormous number of people and
2 the relationship between the number of policemen and the number of
3 inhabitants has dramatically changed, so, from the standpoint the rules,
4 should there be a change too?
5 A. Yes. The rules provide for this, and the law, so the laws and
6 regulations would need to be amended for the structure to be changed.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, but my question is: The
8 rules as you know them, and that you spoke of -- because you described to
9 us the rules and all these charts that you produced up to the point when
10 you went to Omarska. After that, you said, "I don't know anything, in
11 fact, up to 1992, May, 1992." But after May, 1992, we had a truly
12 exceptional situation. The rules which are drafted and made to apply to a
13 normal situation, can they apply in an identical manner to an exceptional
14 situation? Can you tell, answer yes or no, from the standpoint theory?
15 A. Yes.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So your opinion is that the
17 rules that apply for a normal situation strictly apply in the same manner
18 to an extraordinary situation? Is that what you're telling us?
19 A. Yes. Only the conditions change, the circumstances change.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But the rules are applied in
21 the same way?
22 A. Yes.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. I should like to go
24 back to the incident with your weapon. And I'm going back to it because
25 if one reads page 54, lines 1 to 9 of the transcript, I think there may be
1 some confusion. You told us -- anyway, I'm going to ask you, even if it
2 is repetitious, when did this incident occur?
3 A. I said it was in 1978 or thereabouts. I don't remember the exact
4 date. It was a long time ago and it wasn't impressed very deeply on my
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. We know already
7 that you're not quite sure of the name of the president who pardoned you,
8 but tell us, do you remember the date of the pardon?
9 A. I think it was the 29th of November, on the Republic Day for
10 Bosnia-Herzegovina. It was a national holiday.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What was that holiday?
12 A. Republic Day.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [No translation]
14 A. [No translation]
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [No translation]
16 JUDGE RIAD: There is no translation.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [No translation]
18 JUDGE RIAD: And the transcript, also nothing.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [No translation]
20 THE INTERPRETER: Is there a problem?
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Is there a problem with the English booth?
22 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear the other microphone? One, two,
23 three. Can you hear the other microphone?
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: I am hearing now.
25 THE INTERPRETER: One works; one doesn't work.
1 The answer was 1978 or 1979 to the question about the year.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The question that I would like
3 to ask you is the following: Do you remember more or less what was the
4 time -- how much time elapsed between the incident and the pardon that you
5 received? How much time went by between the actual incident and the
7 A. I think about a year. About one year went by.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you. I have
9 no further questions. We have no further questions. Thank you very much
10 for coming. We wish you bon voyage back to your place of residence.
11 A. Thank you too, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I am now going to ask the usher
13 to escort the witness out of the courtroom.
14 [The witness withdrew]
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Simic. You have the
17 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we mentioned the
18 document. It has a number, but because of the confusion, I don't know
19 whether -- D43/1, I'm referring to. And let me also say that the Defence,
20 according to Rule 94 ter, with respect to the statement made by the
21 witness, we heard a moment ago, has been supported by the statement of
22 Daljevic Radovan, who was also a Commander of the Omarska Police Station
23 department while it existed. It was disbanded in 1990. A Mr. Daljevic
24 was replaced by Mr. Bujic. And I also omitted to state that after the
25 testimony by Mr. Dragan Popovic, his statement was supported by two
1 affidavits, one Milojica Kvocka and the other one, Rajko Marmat, also a
2 guard in Omarska, and he was a fact witness bearing out what Mr. Popovic
3 said during his testimony. Thank you, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] There seems to be a slight
5 confusion but no problem there. In the transcript, and I read in
6 English: [In English] "I also omitted to state that after the testimony
7 by Mr. Dragan Popovic, his statement was supported by two affidavits."
8 [Interpretation] When did you omit to declare that, Mr. Simic, to
9 tell us that?
10 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] After the testimony of
11 Mr. Popovic. The affidavits were tendered according to the regular
12 procedure to the secretariat, but I omitted to tell you about this after
13 Mr. Popovic's testimony.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you. So we
15 only have the question of the document, D43/1. You would like to have it
16 admitted. Any opposition from the Prosecution?
17 MR. WAIDYARATNE: No, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The document has hereby been
19 admitted into evidence. And it is now time for our lunch break. We are
20 going to have 50 minutes.
21 --- Recess taken at 12.56 p.m.
22 --- On resuming at 1.49 p.m.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.
24 Mr. Simic.
25 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence calls
1 Witness DA/3, in respect of whom protective measures have been adopted.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Usher, would you please
3 bring in the witness.
4 [The witness entered court]
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness DA/3.
6 Can you hear me? We will be referring to you as Witness DA/3 in order to
7 protect you. Would you please read the solemn declaration that the usher
8 is giving to you.
9 WITNESS: WITNESS DA/3
10 [Witness answered through interpreter]
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
12 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated now. Thank
14 you. Would you please come a little closer to the microphone. Are you
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I am.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, then. The usher is
18 now going to show you a piece of paper which is somewhere around here.
19 Mr. Usher -- I'm sorry.
20 Witness, I think that in front of you you have a piece of paper
21 which contains your name. The name on the paper, is it your name or not?
22 A. Yes, it is.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
24 Mr. Simic, I think that we can proceed.
25 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I would
1 just like to request a private session for a few moments for identifying
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Let us move into private
5 [Private session]
25 [Open session]
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the English
14 and French transcripts.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Simic. You may
2 continue now.
3 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Witness DA/3, when were you arrested?
5 A. I was arrested between the 30th and the 31st of May. That is in
6 the afternoon hours I was taken away from my home together with the rest
7 of the population, we were led through the city to a hotel in Prijedor
8 town and we were separated there.
9 Q. I will be asking brief questions of you, so would you please give
10 me brief answers as well? Did anything happen before this arrest in the
11 town of Prijedor, were there any conflicts?
12 A. Yes. There were conflicts in the town of Kozarac.
13 Q. How about the town of Prijedor itself?
14 A. That night, the town of Prijedor was attacked by a formation of
15 some kind.
16 Q. The next morning, the morning after the attack, were you arrested?
17 A. Yes, I was, in the afternoon.
18 Q. Was any other member of your family arrested on that occasion?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Who was it?
21 A. Me and my two brothers.
22 Q. Where were you arrested?
23 A. In the house.
24 Q. You were taken from your house where, to where?
25 A. To the Prijedor hotel.
1 Q. Did you pass by the Mladis [phoen] Sports centre on that occasion?
2 A. Yes. I did.
3 Q. Did you stay there for a while at the Prijedor hotel?
4 A. Yes. I did. And I was separated there from women and children.
5 We were separated there from women and children.
6 Q. Where were you transported from there?
7 A. To Omarska.
8 Q. How were you transported there?
9 A. By buses.
10 Q. Were you and your brothers on the same bus?
11 A. No, we were not.
12 Q. Could you tell us where you were? You don't have to state your
13 names. How many brothers were on one bus and how many on the other?
14 A. There were two of us in one bus and the other brother, the third
15 one, was on another bus.
16 Q. Witness DA/3, could you tell us approximately when you arrived in
18 A. At about two or three hours after the arrest.
19 Q. What happened upon your arrival in Omarska?
20 A. We were taken off the buses. A policeman who had escorted us
21 there told us to stay in front of one of the buildings.
22 Q. Where were you brought after that?
23 A. To an office.
24 Q. Who took you there?
25 A. The same policemen took us to Mr. Kvocka.
1 Q. Did the policeman know you from before?
2 A. Yes, he did.
3 Q. Did your brother later join you?
4 A. Yes, he did.
5 Q. The third brothers?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you know how he was brought to the same room?
8 A. He was brought by Mr. Kvocka.
9 Q. How long did you stay in that office?
10 A. For a brief period of time and then we left the room.
11 Q. Did anyone take you from that office and from the Omarska
13 A. Yes. It was Mr. Kvocka.
14 Q. When Mr. Kvocka took you where he took you eventually, did he
15 depart from you?
16 A. Yes. He went back or somewhere else, I don't know.
17 Q. During that day or that evening, did you have an opportunity to
18 see Mr. Kvocka again?
19 A. Yes. We saw him that night but he was in a very bad condition.
20 Q. When you say that he was in a bad condition, what exactly do you
21 mean by that?
22 A. He didn't talk to us, and he didn't talk to his wife and other
23 members of his family. His household. He was very depressed.
24 JUDGE RIAD: Excuse me just a clarification. You asked the
25 witness did anyone take you from that office and from the Omarska
1 compound. The witness never said that he was taken away from the Omarska
2 compound. And then he said it was Mr. Kvocka. Does that mean that Mr.
3 Kvocka took him from the Omarska compound? Or took him just out of the
4 room, out of the office?
5 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, for this
6 intervention. I will ask the witness.
7 A. It was Mr. Kvocka who took me out of the Omarska camp compound.
8 Q. Thank you very much, witness.
9 Did you then leave the place where you were staying? Did you go
10 anywhere else?
11 A. I did not.
12 Q. While you were staying there, did you have an opportunity to be
13 interrogated by anyone, did anyone interrogate you?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Were you ever taken for interrogation?
16 A. Yes, I was.
17 Q. Could you tell us approximately after how much time -- how much
18 time after you left the camp you were taken for interrogation?
19 A. Maybe ten or 15 days after that, we were taken back to the Omarska
20 compound to be interrogated by an investigator.
21 Q. Can you remember the names of your interrogators?
22 A. Nenad Lakic or Neso Lakic, and the name of the other was also
23 Neso, but I don't know his surname.
24 Q. After the interrogation, which was conducted by the investigators
25 that you mentioned, in the Omarska compound, did you go back to the place
1 that you had been taken to by Mr. Kvocka?
2 A. Yes, I did.
3 Q. When you say Mr. Kvocka, could you tell us his first name as well,
5 A. Yes, Miroslav.
6 Q. Together with your brothers, were you again taken back to the
7 Omarska camp?
8 A. Yes, I was.
9 Q. Can you remember when it was?
10 A. Maybe ten days after our interrogation in the camp.
11 Q. During your stay there, outside the camp, did you ever receive any
12 information as to what was happening, what would happen to all of you?
13 A. No. We only learned through the wife of Mr. Kvocka that he was
14 trying to have us taken back home.
15 Q. Did you know through him he was trying to do that?
16 A. Through Mr. Meakic. He wanted the message to be transmitted to
17 Mr. Drljaca, who at the time was the chief of SUP in Prijedor.
18 Q. Was he successful in his attempts to do that?
19 A. No, he was not.
20 Q. You said you were returned to Omarska ten days later. At what
21 time of the day was it?
22 A. I can only remember that it was during the day, in daytime.
23 Q. After that, did you stay in the Omarska camp?
24 A. Yes, I did.
25 Q. After your arrival in the Omarska camp, did Mr. Kvocka work there
1 at the time?
2 A. No, he did not.
3 Q. Would he visit you?
4 A. Yes. He visited me on two or three occasions.
5 Q. Once those visits stopped, did he send you any packages?
6 A. Yes, he did.
7 Q. Who would bring those parcels to you?
8 A. Sometimes we would get it from Slavica Lakic and sometimes from
9 other guards.
10 Q. Would you always receive the parcels that had been sent to you?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Did Mrs. Lakic inform you of any problem in relation to that?
13 A. Once she brought a parcel to the camp compound, but the parcel was
14 seized from her.
15 Q. During your stay there, where were you accommodated? Where were
17 A. To a small room which was commonly referred to as the "glass
19 Q. Could you be more precise as to the building in which the "glass
20 house" was located?
21 A. It was in the administration building.
22 Q. Was it on the ground floor or on the first floor?
23 A. It was on the ground floor.
24 Q. Do you remember how many persons were there?
25 A. The number varied every day.
1 Q. In the "glass house," did you have -- did you meet a person called
2 Igor Kondic?
3 A. That person was in the camp when we arrived, and he was in very
4 bad shape.
5 Q. Did you learn how that person ended up?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Did he remain with you in the "glass house"?
8 A. No. He was taken away.
9 Q. You don't know where he was taken?
10 A. I do not.
11 Q. Let us go back to this "glass house." What kind of a view did you
12 have from the "glass house"?
13 A. Actually, we couldn't see anything properly except through the
14 glass of the kitchen. So that was our field of vision. Through the glass
15 we saw the kitchen, and from there through the glass windows of the
17 Q. When did you leave the Omarska camp?
18 A. On the 3rd or 4th of August. I don't know exactly.
19 Q. While you were in the camp, did you personally suffer any
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Could you describe some of those incidents, please?
23 A. When we went to the toilet, the guards would come up to me and
24 threaten me with a knife. So there was no physical violence; there was
25 more of a mental abuse.
1 Q. Were you slapped or hit?
2 A. Yes. That was a daily occurrence on the way to and back from the
4 Q. Do you know whether your brothers were treated in a similar
6 A. Probably they were.
7 Q. Was there a reserve policeman there who showed you some favours?
8 A. There was a young man with the same surname as Mr. Kvocka who
9 would help us sometimes to go to the toilet unhindered.
10 Q. Can you remember his name?
11 A. No. I just know he was about my height, heavier in build, and
12 fair in complexion.
13 Q. What about the other guards? Did they treat you in the same way?
14 A. No. Some of them may have done a service now and then, but mostly
15 they were very abusive.
16 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I thank Witness
17 DA/3. I have no further questions for him.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you,
19 Mr. Simic. You have given the Prosecutor a lot of time today, Mr. Simic.
20 I'm just joking.
21 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I'll grant them the same amount of
22 time, not a lot of time.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Are there any
24 questions by other counsel? No. No. So the Prosecution. I think it's
25 Mr. Saxon who will be cross-examining.
1 So, Witness DA/3, you are now going to answer questions from the
3 Your witness, Mr. Saxon.
4 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 Cross-examined by Mr. Saxon:
6 MR. SAXON: Witness DA/3, my name is Daniel Saxon and I have also
7 some questions to ask you.
8 And Your Honour, if you'll bear with me, I'm going to try to
9 organise my questions so as to avoid going into private session as little
10 as possible.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. As you know, we have
12 plenty of patience, so please proceed.
13 MR. SAXON:
14 Q. Witness DA/3, I'd like to go back to the day when you were
15 arrested. I believe it was the 31st of May, 1992. Is that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And Mr. Krstan Simic asked you this question, but your response
18 wasn't quite clear. Approximately what time of day did the bus that you
19 were on arrive at Omarska?
20 A. In the afternoon.
21 Q. Did the bus stop on the pista area?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. When was, if you can recall, the very first time you saw
24 Mr. Kvocka that day at Omarska, Mr. Miroslav Kvocka?
25 A. When we arrived at the Omarska camp compound.
1 Q. And were you still on the bus at that time?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Where was Mr. Miroslav Kvocka at that time?
4 A. In front of the entrance to the administration building of
6 Q. And did you notice what, if anything, Mr. Kvocka was doing at that
8 A. No, I didn't.
9 Q. Was anybody smoking at the time?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Who?
12 A. The guards who were standing there, the men.
13 Q. What happened when the prisoners began to leave your bus? What
14 was done with those prisoners?
15 A. They had to put their hands behind their heads. They were
16 searched one by one, and then they entered the administration building.
17 Q. As they were being searched, how were they treated?
18 A. It depended.
19 Q. Tell us what you observed.
20 A. Some of the guards hit a number of men; not all of them but only
21 some of them.
22 Q. Were you hit?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Was Miroslav Kvocka still standing by the administration building
25 as some of the guards hit some of the prisoners?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Did you see or hear anyone intervene to stop the guards from
3 hitting some of the prisoners who had left the bus?
4 A. I was still in the bus.
5 Q. After you got off the bus, were you searched?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And I believe you said that you were escorted by a policeman
8 inside the administration building. Did that policeman say anything to
9 the guards with respect to you and your brother?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What did that policeman say to the guards with respect to you and
12 your brother?
13 A. Not to hurt us, not to touch us.
14 Q. And did any of the guards touch you at that time?
15 A. No.
16 Q. You said that you were brought into an office, and I believe you
17 said it was in the administration building. Is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. What floor was that office on?
20 A. The first floor.
21 Q. Did you see any other prisoners being led up to the first floor at
22 that time?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Could you see where the other prisoners were being taken?
25 A. Just then, no.
1 Q. When you were briefly in that office, Witness DA/3, besides you
2 and your two brothers, were there any other prisoners in that office?
3 A. No.
4 Q. When you were in that office, what, if anything, did Miroslav
5 Kvocka say to you or to you and to your brothers?
6 A. That he was surprised to see us there at all.
7 Q. Was that all that he said at that time?
8 A. And that he would try to take us home.
9 Q. After that, Miroslav Kvocka took you out of the Omarska camp; is
10 that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. So at that point, Mr. Kvocka took you and your brothers down the
13 stairs, outside of the restaurant building, and did he take you to a
15 A. Yes.
16 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, at this time, for a few minutes, could we
17 please go into a private session?
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Let us go into private
20 [Private session]
24 [Open session]
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We are in open session. Please
1 continue, Mr. Saxon.
2 MR. SAXON:
3 Q. Witness DA/3, if you know, could an ordinary policeman from the
4 Omarska Police Department walk into the Omarska --
5 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic?
7 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness never had
8 any contact with the police so how could he know what a policeman should
9 do? Obviously, the witness is being asked to speculate.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The question was, "If you
11 know." So, continue, Mr. Prosecutor.
12 MR. SAXON:
13 Q. If you know, Witness DA/3, could an ordinary policeman from the
14 Omarska Police Station enter the Omarska concentration camp in late May or
15 early June, 1992 and take some of his relatives out of that camp?
16 A. I don't know that.
17 Q. Do you know of any other instances where such a thing occurred?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And who was that?
20 A. Two of my neighbours.
21 Q. And who removed your neighbours from the Omarska camp?
22 A. A policeman from the Prijedor SUP.
23 Q. Can you give that policeman's name, please?
24 A. I don't know his name but I think his surname was Kusonjic.
25 Q. Can you give the name of your neighbours who were removed from the
2 A. Their surname is Elkaz. One was called Esad and I think the other
3 one was Munib.
4 Q. This policeman from the Prijedor SUP who did this, do you know if
5 that policeman was reprimanded or disciplined for assisting your
7 A. I don't know.
8 Q. You mentioned a house where you stayed for a while. Was Miroslav
9 Kvocka's wife also staying at that house when you were there?
10 A. Yes, she and her two children.
11 Q. Do you know if that's because Mrs. Kvocka wanted to be closer to
12 her husband at that time?
13 A. I don't know, but probably because of the occurrences in Prijedor
14 municipality and the conditions there.
15 Q. If I understood your direct testimony, you stayed in that house
16 for about 20 to 25 days in total; is that about right?
17 A. Something like that, yes.
18 Q. How often, if ever, would Mr. Kvocka come to that house while you
19 were there?
20 A. Every day or two he would come by to see us if he had time.
21 Q. Where was Mr. Kvocka sleeping at night?
22 A. Sometimes in the house; sometimes I didn't see him.
23 Q. When Mr. Kvocka did not come home -- did not come to that house at
24 night, do you know where he was sleeping?
25 A. How could I know that?
1 Q. What would Mr. Kvocka do when he came to that house?
2 A. He would be with his mother, his father, his brothers, his wife
3 and children, and of course he would spend some time with us too, but he
4 didn't stay for long.
5 Q. When he spent some time with you and your brothers, what comments,
6 if any, would Mr. Kvocka make about the work that he was doing?
7 A. He never, even in peacetime, discussed his work of being a
8 professional policeman.
9 Q. When Mr. Kvocka brought you back to the Omarska camp to be
10 interrogated, the day he came to get you and bring you to your
11 interrogation, what specifically or what, if anything, did Mr. Kvocka say
12 to you?
13 A. He said that he had to take us back to the Omarska camp.
14 Q. Did he say why?
15 A. That was a long time ago. He may simply have said that he was no
16 longer there and that we had to go.
17 Q. And did Mr. Kvocka drive you back to the Omarska camp?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And along the way in the car, what, if anything, did Mr. Kvocka
20 say to you?
21 A. I can't remember exactly, but I think he said that he had been
22 replaced, dismissed, or something, that he was under pressure and that he
23 had to get away from the camp.
24 Q. I'm talking about the day when you were taken for your
25 interrogation. I'm not talking about the day when Mr. Kvocka took you
1 back to the Omarska camp and you were placed in the "glass house," because
2 I know there were two different occasions. When Mr. Kvocka drove you back
3 to the Omarska camp to be interrogated, did he say anything at all about
4 your interrogation?
5 A. He just told us to stick to the truth, to tell the truth, to act
6 in the way we always did, as we hadn't done anything anyway.
7 Q. When you arrived at the Omarska camp, did Mr. Kvocka have any
8 trouble entering the camp?
9 A. I don't remember that.
10 Q. Can you recall if Mr. Kvocka had to show any credential to a guard
11 at the front gate of the Omarska mining compound?
12 A. I don't remember that, as that was eight or nine years ago.
13 Q. So when you got to the Omarska camp, did Mr. Kvocka bring you into
14 the restaurant building or the administration building?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And did he lead you up the stairs to the first floor?
17 A. Yes. He took me first. I was the first one to be interrogated.
18 Q. And did you walk up past the "glass house," up the stairs to the
19 first floor?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. At that time, were there any guards standing by the "glass house"?
22 A. Of course, there were guards there every day.
23 Q. Did Mr. Kvocka say anything to those guards?
24 A. He may just have exchanged greetings with them.
25 Q. Can you recall how the guards greeted or addressed Mr. Kvocka?
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the English
14 and French transcripts.
1 A. With the word "hello."
2 Q. And when Mr. Kvocka brought you up to the first floor, did he
3 bring you to an office?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Who was, if anyone, was in that office on the first floor?
6 A. Two inspectors.
7 Q. Did Mr. Kvocka stay in that office or did Mr. Kvocka leave?
8 A. He went out.
9 Q. Did those two inspectors ask you any questions about the
10 activities of Miroslav Kvocka?
11 A. No.
12 Q. During your interrogation, were you beaten or mistreated in any
14 A. No.
15 Q. What sounds could you hear coming from other offices on that first
17 A. Human cries.
18 Q. Could you make out any words?
19 A. It would be difficult to make out anything. It was difficult to
20 make out anything.
21 Q. When you said "human cries," were they cries of happiness or cries
22 of pain?
23 A. No one there cried of happiness.
24 Q. Could you hear the sound of any blows from offices on that floor?
25 A. I couldn't hear anything from other offices except the one next to
1 mine, the one I was in.
2 Q. Could you hear the sound of blows coming from the office next door
3 to where you were at that time?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. When your interrogation was over, where were you taken?
6 A. The guard took me back to the "glass house."
7 Q. And then eventually were you and your brothers taken away again by
8 Mr. Kvocka to the other house outside of the Omarska camp?
9 A. Yes. But we weren't taken out of Omarska camp twice, but only
10 once. You were asking me about when we were brought there. Now you're
11 asking me questions about when we were taken away from there.
12 Q. I'm sorry if my question wasn't clear. After you were
13 interrogated, did Mr. Kvocka again remove you from the Omarska camp or did
14 you remain confined in the Omarska camp?
15 A. We went back to the house.
16 Q. And eventually, did Mr. Kvocka take you back to the Omarska camp
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did he tell you why he had to do that?
20 A. I've already told you that.
21 Q. Well, it's not clear to me. Could you repeat your answer?
22 A. He was under a great deal of pressure to get out of the camp, as
23 he had been assisting the Muslims, so he had to take us back to the camp.
24 Q. When Mr. Kvocka took you back to the Omarska camp that day, did he
25 bring you and your brothers into the restaurant building?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. He didn't bring you to the hangar?
3 A. No.
4 Q. He did not bring you to the "white house"?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Were there prisoners on the pista when you arrived that day?
7 A. From the direction that we entered, we couldn't see that straight
9 Q. But you weren't left on the pista, were you?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Were you and both of your brothers then confined in the "glass
12 house," or just you?
13 A. All three of us.
14 Q. Do you recall a guard at the Omarska camp with the last name
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Was this the guard who threatened you with the knife?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Besides -- I'm sorry, can you hear me?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Besides threatening you with a knife, what, if anything, did Mr.
22 Savic say to you or to your brothers?
23 A. He said that at the end of the camp, we would be like a dessert at
24 the end of the whole game.
25 Q. Did Mr. Savic or any other guard make any remarks about Mr. Kvocka
1 and his relationship with you?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. What did Mr. Savic say in that regard?
4 A. Because of the fact that he had helped us, he said that we would
5 be his dessert and that he would get rid of us the way they got rid of
7 Q. Do you recall telling the investigator from the Office of the
8 Prosecutor in March of 1999 that Mr. Savic said the following: "Now that
9 Kvocka is gone, we can do whatever we want with you and your brothers"?
10 Do you recall telling the investigator that?
11 A. No, I don't recall that. And I said Ms. Susan Tucker, that she
12 could not submit any report without my signature and she did that
13 illegally. I never put my signature on any report, and you cannot take
14 into account such a report.
15 Q. How did this situation with Mr. Savic get resolved?
16 A. The threats were made on a daily basis until the moment we left
17 the camp.
18 Q. What if anything did Mr. Kvocka do to stop these threats against
19 you and your brothers?
20 A. Mr. Kvocka was no longer there.
21 Q. You stated --
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon, sorry to interrupt
23 you. I just have to remind you of the time that's left to you.
24 MR. SAXON: May I have a few more minutes, please?
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: How many?
1 MR. SAXON: Three.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Okay, three. Let's go.
3 MR. SAXON:
4 Q. You said under direct examination that Mr. Kvocka returned to the
5 Omarska camp and visited you after you and your brothers were left there;
6 is that right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. What if anything did Mr. Kvocka do on those occasions to stop the
9 threats from Mr. Savic and the other guards against you and your brothers?
10 A. I don't know that because I was not present at any such
11 conversation between Mr. Kvocka and any of the guards.
12 Q. After Mr. Kvocka returned to the Omarska camp and visited you, did
13 those threats, particularly the threats from Mr. Savic, stop?
14 A. No.
15 MR. SAXON: Can we go into private session for one minute,
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Let us move into private
18 session, please.
19 [Private session]
25 [Open session]
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Not yet. Yes, Mr. Simic, now
2 we are in public session. Please continue.
3 Re-examined by Mr. K. Simic:
4 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Witness DA/3, who amongst the members of the OTP talked to you?
6 A. Madam Susan Tucker and Mr. Keegan.
7 Q. Did they want you to testify to help Mr. Kvocka?
8 A. They wanted me to testify as a Prosecution witness.
9 Q. Did they tell you that the Defence would not call you? Let me
10 repeat the question. Did they tell you that the witness -- that the
11 Defence would not call you to testify before the Tribunal about the events
12 that took place?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. At that time, did you already have contact with the Defence and
15 did you already know that you would be testifying as a Defence witness?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you have any information to the effect that, after that,
18 investigators of the OTP talked to your third brother?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. He gave them his statement?
21 A. Yes, he did.
22 Q. Witness DA/3, let me go back to the beginning of the
23 cross-examination which was conducted by my learned colleague, Mr. Saxon,
24 and which concerned the date of your arrest, because I don't think that it
25 has been made sufficiently clear. Could you please now try to link the
1 time of your arrest with certain events? And I will ask you a question in
2 that regard. The attack on Prijedor, as you called it, took place during
3 the night, is that correct?
4 A. In the early morning hours. It was still dark.
5 Q. Witness DA/3, in the afternoon hours of that day, that is on the
6 same day when the attack on the town of Prijedor took place, were you
7 arrested in the afternoon of that day?
8 A. Yes, I was.
9 Q. Let me go back to your arrival in the camp. The active-duty
10 policeman that escorted you, was he a regular police officer?
11 A. Yes, he was. He worked in the police station in Prijedor.
12 Q. Was he the commander of the police station in Prijedor?
13 A. No, he wasn't.
14 Q. If I understand you correctly, he was a regular, active-duty
16 A. Yes. He was a very young one who had been working for only the
17 last two or three years in Prijedor.
18 Q. You said that on one particular occasion, in the absence of Mr.
19 Kvocka, he told the guards not to beat you and that the guards obeyed him;
20 is that correct?
21 A. Yes, it is.
22 Q. Did Mr. Kvocka have an apartment in Prijedor?
23 A. Yes, he did.
24 Q. While you were in the house that you talked about, would he go
25 from time to time back to that apartment to check on the situation there?
1 A. Yes, most probably so.
2 Q. Do you have any information as to the fact that some other
3 individuals were staying in that apartment?
4 A. On the same day when they were taken out of the hotel --
5 MR. SAXON: Objection, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, I will hear you on your
7 objection, Mr. Saxon. However, I would like to take this opportunity and
8 tell Mr. Simic that you're now asking very leading questions, Mr. Simic,
9 of the witness. When you say, [In English] "While you were in the house
10 that you talked about, would he go from time to time back to that
11 apartment to check on the situation there," what is this, Mr. Simic? Mr.
12 Simic, this is a leading question. You are answering instead of the
13 witness. You want him to say that Mr. Kvocka went there to check on the
14 situation. In order to avoid leading questions, you have to ask, "Do you
15 know what he did there, why he went there?" But let me hear the objection
16 of Mr. Saxon.
17 MR. SAXON: That was half of my objection, Your Honour. The other
18 half is that it's my understanding that the purpose of re-direct
19 examination is simply to clarify points or issues that were raised during
20 cross-examination, and it seems to me that, at least with this most recent
21 line of questioning, we are not clarifying any issues that I raised on
22 cross-examination. We are going afield. And if that's going to happen,
23 then I would ask for some re-cross-examination.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. You're quite right,
25 Mr. Saxon. Additional questions should be for the purposes of elucidation
1 of the cross-examination. But that is exactly the objective of the
2 cross-examination as well. Either we are going to be flexible in our
3 application of the Rules or we will interpret them in very strict terms.
4 If we decide to do the latter, we have to bear in mind the fact that the
5 cross-examination is conducted on the basis of the examination-in-chief
6 and that additional questions are conducted on the basis of the
7 cross-examination. I will allow for this question to be asked because we
8 are applying a flexible approach to the interpretation of the Rules.
9 I don't know whether Mr. Simic accepts this objection or not, but
10 at any rate, you may continue. You may proceed with your question,
11 Mr. Simic. But later on, please check the record for yourself to see how
12 many leading questions you have asked of this witness.
13 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I accept the objection,
14 Your Honour. I have no further questions for this witness.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Simic.
16 I hope that you understand the complexity of our situation and our role
17 here as Judges, but we have to discharge this role. Very often, I'm
18 afraid, I have to say, you are mutually accusing yourselves of the same
19 kind of approach. But I hope that at the end of the day you will have a
20 look at the transcript and see the questions that you have asked and see
21 for yourself about the nature of the questions you have asked. But I hope
22 that we will be able to avoid wasting too much time on similar problems in
23 the future.
24 Judge Fouad Riad has the floor.
25 Questioned by the Court:
1 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] I would like a private session,
3 [Private session]
22 [Open session]
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. We are in public session.
24 Please continue, Madam Judge.
25 JUDGE WALD: What job did you think Mr. Kvocka held while he was
1 in the camp? What was your impression of the job, of his job at the camp?
2 A. I have already said: I cannot have an opinion about something
3 which was happening somewhere else --
4 JUDGE WALD: No. I'm not talking about --
5 A. -- to comment on something I couldn't see. I didn't know what was
6 happening there.
7 JUDGE WALD: I'm not talking about the period that you were
8 staying in the house. You did come on the first day and you did have a
9 very short period in the camp before Mr. Kvocka took you back, and you did
10 see him off and on in the house when he came to visit. So I'm just asking
11 you what your impression was as to what his job was in the camp while he
12 was there.
13 A. I don't know that. All I know was that he would come home very
14 depressed and in a very bad mood.
15 JUDGE WALD: Okay. During the period that you actually were in
16 the camp and he had already left working in the camp, when you and your
17 brothers were actually in the camp and after Mr. Kvocka was no longer
18 working there, who, in your impression, was the head person in the camp?
19 Who had the most authority in the camp during that period after he had
20 left, while you were actually staying in the camp? What was your
21 impression of who was the top authority in the camp?
22 A. I don't know that.
23 JUDGE WALD: You never heard other detainees speak of it, or
24 guards or anyone else?
25 A. There were lots of stories of all kinds, but they were just
1 guesses. If there was a superior officer there, then that duty could be
2 discharged only by someone with a high rank, not anyone of a lower rank
3 like that of an ordinary policeman.
4 JUDGE WALD: Right. I'm not -- I was just asking you whether or
5 not you had an impression as to who the top person was, whether he was a
6 high authority or not a high authority.
7 A. No.
8 JUDGE WALD: Were you aware of the fact that there were shift
9 commanders there? I mean, there were guards there, obviously. You spoke
10 about them. Did you know that those guards had commanders, shift
11 commanders in charge of certain shifts?
12 A. They did call them chiefs, but they were the same guards who were
13 working there. They had no ranks, no special clothing, no particular work
14 post. They were simply working there.
15 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Did you ever see any of these people, whatever
16 they called them, or anyone, ever discipline the guards, or, apart from
17 what you just told us about the one or two times when somebody -- some
18 guard intervened to prevent you from being beaten, but did you see other
19 incidents with other detainees where some guards would stop other guards
20 from abusing the detainees?
21 A. That happened on a number of occasions. If somebody would overdo
22 it a bit in beating people when they were going to eat, then another guard
23 would just come up and say, "Well, leave them alone, for heaven's sake."
24 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Was it your impression when that happened,
25 that those guards, guards who came in and said, "Leave them alone, for
1 heaven's sake," were just of the same rank, the same position as the
2 guards who were doing the beating, so that any one guard could say to
3 another guard, "Cut it out" or "Don't carry on that way," or that there
4 was some order so that some guards had more authority than others?
5 A. I don't know whether anyone had more or less authority than
6 others, but some men simply couldn't stand watching the people being
7 beaten and the blood flowing daily, which some of the guards could go on
8 doing day and night.
9 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Judge
12 Witness DA/3, I have three questions for you. You told us that
13 you were taken to Mr. Kvocka's office. Did I understand that correctly?
14 A. I don't know whose office that was. That used to be a mine. It
15 isn't Mr. Kvocka's office; it was just an office.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But did Mr. Kvocka work in the
17 mine before going to the police?
18 A. No.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We know the answer, but we
20 wanted you to tell us. Now, then, you told us that you arrived, you got
21 off the bus, and Mr. Kvocka took you to his office. Did Mr. Kvocka have
22 an office for his duties in Omarska?
23 A. I don't know whether he had any office for him personally. I said
24 before that these were offices belonging to the iron ore mine, and whom
25 they belonged to, I don't know. We were there for an hour; that was all.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But just then, was Mr. Kvocka
2 using that office?
3 A. How do I know that? There was a soldier with a gun there guarding
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you. The
6 first thing that Mr. Kvocka apparently said was that he was surprised to
7 see you. Did I understand that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Did he tell you why he was
10 surprised, the reasons for his surprise?
11 A. Because we didn't belong to any political parties, ranging from
12 the Communist Party of the Former Yugoslavia to the Muslim SDA and
13 others. We were not members of armed formations, we never provoked any
14 conflicts or arguments, we never had a criminal record in the police
15 station, or anything like that.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] During your stay in the Omarska
17 camp, did you meet people who did not belong to any political party or
18 armed grouping or anything else like that?
19 A. Only the guards were armed.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] That was not my question. You
21 said that the reason for Mr. Kvocka's surprise was because you didn't
22 belong to a political party, nor were you a member of any army. Is that
23 what you said?
24 A. All the people who were taken to the camp that day were brought
25 there after the attack on the town, for interrogation. We were told that
1 we would be released very quickly after a search. Of course they were
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness DA/3, let me go back a
4 little. I am just trying to check whether I understood you correctly. I
5 asked you: Did Mr. Kvocka tell you why he was surprised? You answered
6 that he was surprised because you hadn't belonged to any political party
7 or any army. Is that correct? Did I understand you correctly?
8 A. He had to be surprised.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, Witness. Just tell
10 me, did I understand you right or not? Yes or no?
11 A. No.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So I didn't understand you
13 well. What were the reasons he gave you? What were the reasons he gave
15 A. Who?
16 THE INTERPRETER: The witness said "Who?"
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I seem to have lost the
18 interpretation. Who did what? I'm sorry, I'm afraid I don't understand
19 anything anymore. Let me repeat. Maybe I'm not clear enough. In that
20 office, when Mr. Kvocka said, "I'm surprised to see you here," my question
21 is: Did he give you the reasons why he was surprised to see you there?
22 A. I don't remember, but probably he was surprised to see us having
23 been brought there. Omarska is about 25 kilometres away from Prijedor and
24 there was absolutely no reason for us to be taken there. We hadn't done
25 anything to anyone.
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the English
14 and French transcripts.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I won't insist. My third
2 question, Witness DA/3: Who was the first to contact you to come and
3 testify here?
4 A. My sister. And even if she hadn't asked me to come, I would have
5 come nevertheless.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. So you had the
7 possibility of choosing. The Prosecution contacted you, the Defence
8 contacted you. Why did you choose the Defence?
9 A. Because Mr. Kvocka saved my life and that of my brothers.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. There is no
11 question in that regard. You're free to testify, because we have always
12 said that a witness who comes here no longer belongs either to the
13 Prosecution or to the Defence.
14 So anyway, Witness DA/3, thank you very much for coming here. You
15 have completed your testimony. We wish you a safe journey to your place
16 of residence, and I'll ask the usher to accompany you out.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please don't move for the
19 moment. Wait a minute.
20 [The witness withdrew]
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Simic?
22 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] (redacted)
1 MR. SAXON: (redacted).
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] (redacted)?
3 MR. SAXON: (redacted).
4 JUDGE WALD: (redacted)?
5 MR. SAXON: (redacted).
6 JUDGE WALD: Yes.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] (redacted)
10 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] (redacted)
13 JUDGE WALD: (redacted)
14 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] (redacted)
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Registrar, please let's
16 redact the identifying parts. Now. We need to do it now. So we are
18 We see that there is good cooperation between the parties. You
19 have to give a part of your salary to Mr. Saxon, Mr. Simic, even though he
20 doesn't need it.
21 Mr. Simic, I think -- how many more witnesses do we have,
22 Mr. Simic?
23 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence has one
24 more witness and thereby it will be completing its case, and then the
25 conditions will be ready for the cross-examination of Mr. Kvocka.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers, we have
2 counted the time for the examination in chief of Mr. Kvocka and the result
3 is 14 hours, so that is the amount of time that you will have for the
4 cross-examination of Mr. Kvocka. Just so you know, so you can prepare and
5 organise yourself accordingly.
6 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Your Honour, for assisting me. I
7 appreciate it.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So, for today, we will stop
9 there, and on Monday, at 9.20, we will resume. Have a nice weekend and
10 success in your work.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me, but we cannot sit at
13 9.20 but at 10.00. 10.00 Monday. That is when we will begin on Monday,
15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
16 3.20 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday, the 12th day
17 of February, 2001, at 10.00 a.m.