Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7915

 1                          Monday, 12th February 2001 2                          [Open session]

 3                          --- Upon commencing at 10.00 a.m.

 4                          [The accused entered court]

 5            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning.  You may be

 6    seated.

 7            I should like to say good morning to the interpreters and the

 8    technical booth, the Registry, the Prosecution and the Defence.

 9            We are going to continue the proceedings, and it is -- Mr. Krstan

10    Simic, could you give us the name of the first witness?

11            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.  The

12    Defence calls witness Jasminka Kvocka to the stand.

13                          [The witness entered court]

14            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, madam.  Can you

15    hear me?

16            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

17            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You are now going to read the

18    solemn declaration handed to you by the usher.

19            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

20    the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

21            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated.

22                          WITNESS:  JASMINKA KVOCKA

23                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

24            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please approach the microphone a

25    little, if you would.  Thank you.  You will start off by answering

Page 7916

 1    questions put to you by Mr. Krstan Simic.

 2            Mr. Krstan Simic, your witness.

 3            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 4                          Examined by Mr. K. Simic:

 5       Q.   Good morning, Mrs. Kvocka.

 6       A.   Good morning.

 7       Q.   For the record, could you start off by giving us your full name

 8    and surname.

 9       A.   My name is Jasminka Kvocka.

10       Q.   What is your maiden name?

11       A.   Crnalic.

12       Q.   When were you born?

13       A.   On the 22nd of December, 1954.

14       Q.   Where were you born?

15       A.   In Prijedor.

16       Q.   Is that where you reside?

17       A.   Yes.  I live in Prijedor.

18       Q.   What education have you had?  What are your qualifications?

19       A.   As I began working very young - my family was a big family - and I

20    started working when I was 16 in the Borac Travnik company of Prijedor.

21       Q.   Did you spend your entire working career working there?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   Are you married?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   Your husband is Miroslav Kvocka, the accused here, is he not?

Page 7917

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   Do you have any children?

 3       A.   We have two children.

 4       Q.   What is your daughter's name?

 5       A.   My daughter's name is Sanela Kvocka, and my son is Sinisa Kvocka.

 6       Q.   When did you marry?

 7       A.   Twenty-two years ago.

 8       Q.   Your ethnicity is Muslim; is that correct?

 9       A.   I'm a Muslim, a Bosniak, yes.

10       Q.   You mentioned your daughter Sanela.  Could you tell us, please, to

11    what ethnic group the name Sanela belongs?  What ethnicity is it?

12       A.   Most of the names in -- there are many Sanelas as girls' names in

13    Bosnia.

14       Q.   Is it a Muslim name or a Serbian name?

15       A.   It is a Muslim name.

16       Q.   You mentioned your son, and his name is Sinisa.  Tell us, please,

17    the name Sinisa, to which ethnic group does that name belong?  Is it a

18    Serbian, Croatian, or Muslim name?

19       A.   It is a Serbian name.

20       Q.   You said that the family that you yourself come from, that there

21    were many children.  Could you tell us how many brothers, sisters,

22    cousins?

23       A.   My parents have five sons and two daughters, and the Crnalic

24    family is a family that has lived in Prijedor for many, many years.  It is

25    an old Prijedor family.

Page 7918

 1       Q.   Before the unfortunate events that took place in

 2    Bosnia-Herzegovina, where did you reside?  Where was your house?

 3       A.   Petra Mitropolita Zemanjica, the number was C3, apartment 37.

 4       Q.   Is that in Prijedor?

 5       A.   It is in Pecani.  It is a new neighbourhood in Prijedor, and the

 6    name of the district is Pecani.

 7       Q.   Mrs. Kvocka, let us now go back to the events of 1992 and focus on

 8    them.  Do you know the term or concept of "takeover of power" in

 9    Prijedor?  When we say the takeover of power in Prijedor, do you know that

10    expression?

11       A.   Yes, I heard it on the radio, mostly.

12       Q.   What happened when the takeover of power took place?  What was the

13    information broadcast over the radio?

14       A.   In the early morning hours there was a broadcast over the radio,

15    informing us that power had -- there was a takeover of power in Prijedor

16    without a single bullet being shot.  That was the first information I

17    received as to that particular concept of the takeover of power.

18       Q.   Do you remember when that occurred?

19       A.   It was at the end of April.

20       Q.   Can you remember where your husband was that evening when the

21    takeover of power took place, that is to say, the night before you heard

22    the news broadcast over the radio?

23       A.   I think he was at work in Omarska at the police station there

24    where he was generally employed, where he usually was, anyway.

25       Q.   Did he know his assignment prior to that?

Page 7919

 1       A.   I think he did.

 2       Q.   Did you have any plans after he had finished his schedule or

 3    shift?

 4       A.   Well, we would celebrate the 1st of May every year.  We would put

 5    a pig on the spit and roast it in our holiday home and celebrate the

 6    event, the 1st of May holidays with our friends and family.  So we were

 7    engaged in preparations.  I'm sorry, lamb on the spit, not pork.

 8       Q.   You said that you were traditionally going to celebrate the 1st of

 9    May holidays in your holiday home, and did you do so this time, too?

10       A.   Yes, it was usual.  It was customary for us to go there and

11    celebrate the holidays every year.

12       Q.   When your husband returned from his work at Omarska, did you

13    receive any information about the event that you learnt about through the

14    media?

15       A.   I asked him what was going on, what was happening, and he told me

16    that he didn't know anything about it.  And I couldn't believe that he

17    knew what was going to happen because if he did, he would have informed

18    us, perhaps, so that we could have taken our children away somewhere.

19       Q.   What was his reaction to your attitude?

20       A.   Well, we had a bit of an argument because I couldn't understand

21    that my husband didn't inform me that we ought to -- that what happened

22    was going to happen.  I couldn't understand that he -- I couldn't believe

23    that he knew what was going to happen and didn't tell me.

24       Q.   Did he convince you to the contrary?

25       A.   Yes, he did convince me to the contrary, and I believe him.  I

Page 7920

 1    believe that he didn't know what was going to happen because perhaps he

 2    could have left me and not worried about "we" - there are other women -

 3    but I know that he would never leave his children, his son and his

 4    daughter, had he known what was going to happen.

 5       Q.   Bearing in mind the circumstances in Prijedor at the time, was

 6    there any possibility of a conflict with respect to this takeover of

 7    power?

 8       A.   Well, yes.  There could have been a conflict because on our floor,

 9    I had one Muslim neighbour, a lady.  The rest were Serbs, and there were

10    some other Muslims living on the 4th floor and on the 6th floor as well.

11    All the other people living in that apartment building were Serbs.

12       Q.   You mentioned the 1st of May picnic that was a tradition in the

13    system that we lived in - the 1st of May holidays were traditionally

14    celebrated at the time - and you said that friends would come and visit.

15    Can you give us the names of some of your friends who would attend your

16    1st of May picnics, barbecues?

17       A.   Yes.  My sister-in-law lives in Capljina, married to a Muslim, and

18    they were always our guests, and then we had a lot of friends from

19    Kozarac.  They would also come to the picnic.

20       Q.   Could you give us some names, perhaps?

21       A.   There was a young man called (redacted), and there was another

22    dark-haired young man.

23       Q.   What about your husband's colleagues from work?

24       A.   Yes.  That young man was a colleague of my husband's, but I can't

25    remember his name right now.

Page 7921

 1       Q.   Did you know an individual named Hamdija Arifagic?

 2       A.   Yes, that's him.  He was there with his wife and two daughters.

 3    They would come too.  But as I haven't heard the name for a long time, it

 4    slipped my mind.  My brothers would be there, my brothers would come.  So

 5    would my mother, my friends, my colleagues from work, so that at our

 6    holiday home, weekend house, there would be about 30 of us.

 7       Q.   Were they Muslims and Serbs alike?

 8       A.   Yes.  They were a mixture.

 9       Q.   Did you succeed in organising your picnic in that particular

10    year?

11       A.   No.

12       Q.   Why not?

13       A.   Well, our plans fell through because we were all afraid.  We

14    didn't know what was happening, what was going on, and we didn't leave our

15    apartments much.

16       Q.   Do you happen to remember whether your husband, on that day and in

17    those first few days of May, had other -- had work to do?  Did he go on

18    shift?  Did he go away from home to carry out his work?

19       A.   I think he did go, yes.  He went somewhere.  Perhaps he went to

20    the police station.

21       Q.   Mrs. Kvocka, did you hear about the well-known event that was

22    referred to as the attack on Kozarac?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   Do you know when that occurred?

25       A.   I think that it was because of that attack that we were not able

Page 7922

 1    to organise our 1st of May picnic.

 2       Q.   Where were you during the attack on Kozarac?

 3       A.   I was in Prijedor.

 4       Q.   Did you receive any information about the attack on Kozarac?

 5       A.   Only on the radio.

 6       Q.   What did they say on the radio?

 7       A.   They said that the population was fighting, that some fighting was

 8    going on.

 9       Q.   During the attack on Kozarac or during those days, did you leave

10    Prijedor?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   Where did you go?

13       A.   I went with my sister-in-law and my children and her daughter to

14    my mother-in-law's house at Omarska.

15       Q.   What was the reason?  Why did you and your sister-in-law - and let

16    me say for the record it was your brother's sister [as interpreted] - why

17    did you leave your flat and go to Omarska?

18       A.   Well, quite simply so that we could all be together.

19       Q.   Were you afraid of the armed conflicts that took place?

20       A.   Well, yes.  It was all chaotic.  We didn't know what was going to

21    happen.

22       Q.   So was that why you left?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   I apologise.  My colleague has just cautioned me, putting

25    something right.  When you say "sister-in-law," what does that mean?

Page 7923

 1       A.   It is my husband's sister.

 2       Q.   Very well.  Because it said in the record that it was your

 3    "brother's sister."  It is "husband's sister."

 4            Do you know about the events -- about the event that is referred

 5    to as the attack on Prijedor on the 30th of May, 1992?

 6       A.   Yes, I do.

 7       Q.   When the attack on Prijedor took place on the 30th of May, 1992,

 8    where were you at the time?

 9       A.   I was in Omarska.

10       Q.   Were your children with you?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   Was your sister-in-law with you?

13       A.   Yes.

14       Q.   And her child?

15       A.   Yes.  Because we went to her parents' family house.

16       Q.   How did you come to hear of this event that took place on the 30th

17    of May, 1992?

18       A.   My mother-in-law wanted to do some work in the garden with us, and

19    we had got up and we were having coffee, and then we heard information

20    over the radio about these events.

21       Q.   When you heard this information, where was your family; your

22    mother, your brothers, their wives and children?

23       A.   They were in Prijedor.

24       Q.   Were you frightened for their safety?

25       A.   Well, I was frightened, but I couldn't understand what was going

Page 7924

 1    on at all, what was happening.

 2       Q.   Did you have any telephone contact with them?

 3       A.   No.  I was not able to reach them by telephone.  It was very

 4    difficult to get Prijedor over the phone because, I suppose, everybody was

 5    trying to call somebody at that particular moment, so the lines were

 6    busy.

 7       Q.   During that day, that is to say, the 30th of May, 1992, did you

 8    meet any of your family members?

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   Who did you meet?

11       A.   I met my brothers.

12       Q.   How many of your brothers?

13       A.   My three brothers.

14       Q.   What were the names of your three brothers?

15       A.   Crnalic Adnan, Nedzad, and Rizah.

16       Q.   For the record, could you spell the name of your third brother?

17       A.   Rizah, R-i-z-a-h, Crnalic.

18       Q.   Very good.  Thank you.  Where did you meet your three brothers?

19       A.   Miro came by the house, his family house, and when he found me all

20    in tears, I said, "Miro, what is going to happen to my family?"  And he

21    said, "Don't worry.  We don't know anything, but don't worry.  Everything

22    will be all right."  And I had no idea what was going on.

23       Q.   I asked you when on that day or where on that day you saw your

24    three brothers.  That was the question I asked you.

25       A.   It was about 5.00 or 6.00 in the afternoon, my husband brought my

Page 7925

 1    three brothers.

 2       Q.   When you say that your husband brought your three brothers, where

 3    did he bring them to?

 4       A.   He brought them to his family home which is where I was at the

 5    time.  I was there, staying with his parents.

 6       Q.   Did you talk to your brothers on the occasion?  What happened?

 7       A.   Well, we were so frightened, and we cried a lot and it was

 8    difficult to have a conversation, but we were, of course, happy to see

 9    each other, one another.

10       Q.   Mrs. Kvocka, when your brother [as interpreted] brought your three

11    brothers to the house between 5.00 and 6.00, did he stay with you or did

12    he leave?

13       A.   No, he left straight away.

14       Q.   Did he tell you where he was going?

15       A.   No.

16       Q.   Did you have occasion to see your husband again that evening, that

17    night?

18       A.   Well, he came back some two hours later.

19       Q.   To avoid any confusion, you said that your brothers turned up

20    between 5.00 and 6.00.

21       A.   In the afternoon hours, during the afternoon.

22       Q.   There seems to be an error in the transcript.  Let me ask the

23    question again to clear matters up.  Who brought your three brothers to

24    the house?

25       A.   My husband did.

Page 7926

 1       Q.   Mrs. Kvocka, when your husband returned to the house two hours

 2    later, what was his state?  Can you describe to the Court what he looked

 3    like?

 4       A.   He was in a terrible state, almost unrecognisable.  He didn't want

 5    to talk, and I am always able to reach my husband and talk to him, but he

 6    wouldn't say a word on that occasion.  He just laid down on the bed and he

 7    just kept silent.  He didn't say anything, and he looked terrible.  And I

 8    thought that it was probably because we didn't know where my mother was

 9    and my sister-in-law and her daughter, or because of -- or because of my

10    brothers.  I didn't know.

11            But the shirt he was wearing, he had no buttons on the shirt, and

12    I saw that when he got up off the couch.  He went around the house

13    nervous.  He never smoked but lit a cigarette on that occasion, and I was

14    astounded.  And he was quite beside himself, in fact.

15       Q.   That evening, were you able to talk to him at all?

16       A.   I tried to, and I asked him if we could go back to our apartment

17    in Prijedor.  And I tried to learn what had happened when we were there,

18    and he just said, "I had some terrible problems.  I had dreadful

19    problems."

20       Q.   Mrs. Kvocka, did your husband spend that night together with you

21    and your brothers in the parents' house?

22       A.   I think we went back to our apartment that night, to Prijedor, him

23    and me, that we went to sleep in our own apartment in Prijedor.  We may

24    have stayed on that first night and went to Prijedor the next night.  I

25    really don't know.  I can't be 100 per cent sure.  I don't want to make a

Page 7927

 1    mistake.  We may have stayed that night with them and left the next

 2    evening for Prijedor.  I'm not quite sure about that.

 3       Q.   Did your husband go to work the next day?  Did he report to

 4    anyone, do you know?

 5       A.   I think he went to work.

 6       Q.   What happened after that?  Did he stay at work or --

 7       A.   No.  He came back quickly.  I think he was not in a condition to

 8    work.

 9       Q.   Did he say anything to you then?

10       A.   Afterwards, when we reached Prijedor, he said a few words.

11       Q.   Why did you go to Prijedor?

12       A.   My mother was there; there was a small baby.  There was no water,

13    no electricity.  So we went there somehow to recover, to pull ourselves

14    together, because he was really quite beside himself.

15       Q.   Did you look for your relatives, your mother, in Prijedor?

16       A.   Yes, we looked for my relatives and my mother and my other

17    sister-in-law, whom we found three or four days later.

18       Q.   When you reached your apartment, did you find anyone there?

19       A.   Yes, we did.

20       Q.   Who?

21       A.   My mother and one sister-in-law with a child; then a woman, Tika

22    Hrnic, my mother's friend; then Mevlida Beganovic; an old lady Ekinovic

23    with her two grandchildren who didn't know where her son and

24    daughter-in-law were; then the wife of a young man I know by sight, Devi

25    is his name.  He worked at the stadium, at the Berek stadium, something to

Page 7928

 1    do with the football players there.  And a couple of women that I didn't

 2    know.  My mother collected them from the hotel and brought them to my

 3    apartment because she just couldn't leave them there.

 4       Q.   Can you make an estimate as to the number of people you found in

 5    your apartment when you arrived?

 6       A.   There were a lot of children; I didn't count them.  Devi's wife

 7    had three children, for instance.

 8       Q.   Mrs. Kvocka, you mentioned a lady by the name of Mevlida

 9    Beganovic.  Whose mother is she?  Do you know her son?

10       A.   Yes, I do.

11       Q.   What is his name?

12       A.   Emir Beganovic.

13       Q.   The persons you found there in your apartment when you and your

14    husband arrived, what ethnicity were they?

15       A.   They were all Muslims.

16       Q.   What happened with those people whom you found in your apartment

17    in the course of that day?

18       A.   I think that the old lady, Ekinovic, found her son and

19    daughter-in-law, they got in touch, and they came to pick her up, and they

20    left.  The Beganovics stayed on.  My husband and myself went to my

21    parents' family's home.

22       Q.   Where is that house?

23       A.   In Stari Grad or Zagrad.  There were various names for that part

24    of town.

25            THE INTERPRETER:  The witness is apologising for speaking too

Page 7929

 1    quickly.

 2            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation]

 3       Q.   How far is your parents' house in Zagrad away from your house at

 4    Pecani?

 5       A.   About a kilometre and a half, maybe one kilometre.  I never

 6    measured the distance.

 7       Q.   When you arrived there, what was the situation?

 8       A.   Everything was all right except for a bottle of whiskey that my

 9    brother had taken out of the closet to treat the young men who had taken

10    them out of the house.

11       Q.   Was the house unlocked?

12       A.   Yes.  The key was in the lock on the inside.

13       Q.   Did you lock up the house?

14       A.   Yes, I did, and I took the key to my mother.

15       Q.   How did your mother enter your apartment with all those people

16    that you mentioned?

17       A.   My mother has her own family home, as I have five brothers.  My

18    father wanted to make an apartment for each son.  So it's an enormous

19    house with five two-roomed apartments.  And I always had a key of that

20    family home, and my mother always had a key to my apartment in Pecani,

21    because I would often go to our weekend house and she would come to water

22    the flowers, to get lunch ready for us when we came back, and things like

23    that.

24       Q.   That day, did your mother eventually go back home?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 7930

 1       Q.   Did you take some food for those people that day?

 2       A.   Yes.  When we left Omarska, we took some food with us.

 3       Q.   Would your mother come to stay in your apartment later on at some

 4    stage, with her friends?

 5       A.   Yes, because in the area where her family home is, there were

 6    electricity cuts.  So they would spend more time in my apartment.

 7       Q.   Let us go back now to your brothers' stay in Omarska.  Where did

 8    they stay?

 9       A.   In the family home of my in-laws.

10       Q.   Were they well-received there?  Were they welcome?

11       A.   That was not the first time that they came there.  They were

12    regular guests at our slava celebrations, when we had our children,

13    whenever there were any celebrations, when we made a roast in the garden

14    or a barbecue.  They felt there as if they were at home.

15       Q.   Did they feel at home on that occasion too?

16       A.   I think so, absolutely so, yes.

17       Q.   Mrs. Kvocka, how many new persons were there in Mr. Kvocka's

18    family home before you and your sister arrived?  How many new people had

19    come in the meantime?

20       A.   My two children, my sister-in-law and her child, my three

21    brothers.  So I don't know how many that adds up to.

22       Q.   Your brothers, were they taken away from there for any kind of

23    interrogation or something?  Do you know that?

24       A.   Yes.  One day Miroslav came and took them away.

25       Q.   How long were they away for?  Do you remember?

Page 7931

 1       A.   Not for long.

 2       Q.   Did they come back to Mr. Kvocka's parents' house?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   And was the situation the same after that interrogation?  Were

 5    they again welcome there?

 6       A.   Yes, of course.

 7       Q.   How did your brothers leave your in-laws' house; do you remember,

 8    the Kvocka household?

 9       A.   I'm sorry, I don't understand that question.  That day when

10    Miroslav brought them back, is that what you're asking me about?

11       Q.   Yes.

12       A.   They came to the yard and had a talk with me.  He didn't have the

13    courage to tell them that he had to take them back, so he asked me to go

14    upstairs and tell them that, "I have to take them back.  I just can't tell

15    them that."  That's what my husband said.

16       Q.   Did you do that?

17       A.   I did.

18       Q.   What happened after that?

19       A.   They left the house.  They got into the car.  I remember very well

20    Rizah sat in front, Nedzko and Dado sat behind, and that is when I saw

21    them leave from behind.

22       Q.   What time of day could that have been?

23       A.   I think in the afternoon.  I'm sorry.  It must have been in the

24    afternoon, after 12.00 in the afternoon, because we had just had lunch.

25    My brother and I made a speciality, a special dish that we craved for

Page 7932

 1    called bumbar, and so I remember it.

 2       Q.   Mrs. Kvocka, I know it's a long time ago and many things have

 3    happened in the meantime.  Could you roughly estimate when your brothers

 4    left for the Omarska camp, when that was?

 5       A.   I think it was a Tuesday, sometime after the 20th.

 6       Q.   You can't remember the date, but it was a Tuesday after the 20th

 7    of June, 1992; is that right?

 8       A.   I am almost certain that it was after the 20th.

 9       Q.   Did your husband return home that day?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   Did he tell you anything as to what had happened to him?

12       A.   No.

13       Q.   Did he go to work the next day?

14       A.   I think he didn't.  No, he didn't.  He just told me that Zeljko

15    had told him to stay home for a couple of days, to take a rest.

16       Q.   After that, did he go to report to anyone?  Did he go out?

17       A.   I think he did.

18       Q.   Do you know where?

19       A.   To the police station.

20       Q.   When you say, "the police station," do you mean Omarska or

21    Prijedor?

22       A.   I think it was Prijedor.

23       Q.   Did he mention the persons he reported to?

24       A.   I think he said once that he reported to Simo Drljaca.

25       Q.   Did Simo Drljaca receive him?  Did he tell you?

Page 7933

 1       A.   I think he did not.  I think he turned him back.  He didn't

 2    receive him.

 3       Q.   Was your husband worried for his fate, for his future during those

 4    days?

 5       A.   Yes.  He didn't know anything.  He went there a couple of times --

 6            MS. SOMERS:  Excuse me, Your Honours.  Objection; leading.

 7            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.  Mr. Simic.

 8            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I will rephrase the question, Your

 9    Honour.

10            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, I think you have to

11    be careful.  It's not the first time that this is happening.  Please be

12    careful, Mr. Simic.

13            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I will.

14       Q.   What was your husband's state those days?

15       A.   He was disappointed.  He couldn't concentrate.  He didn't know

16    what his status was.  He didn't know what would happen to him in the

17    future.

18       Q.   How was that status finally resolved?

19       A.   I think that he was told, "Go home and wait, and we'll see what

20    we'll do with you."

21       Q.   But after that, did he start working somewhere?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   Where?

24       A.   In Tukovi.

25       Q.   Do you remember when?

Page 7934

 1       A.   This must have been sometime in June or the 1st of July.  All this

 2    was a long time ago.

 3       Q.   Indeed it was.  Where is Tukovi?  Do you know?  In Prijedor?

 4       A.   I do.

 5       Q.   Where is it?

 6       A.   In the direction of Sanski Most.  It is the first village you

 7    reach leaving Prijedor on the way to Sanski Most.

 8       Q.   Do you know how long your husband worked there?

 9       A.   I think he stayed there until November.

10       Q.   After that, do you know where your husband worked?

11       A.   In Prijedor, in the police station.

12       Q.   Let us go back to Omarska once again and then we'll go on to some

13    other topics.

14            During your brother's stay in Omarska, where did your brother

15    sleep?

16       A.   On the first floor of my in-laws' house.

17       Q.   How frequently would he sleep there?  We're talking about the

18    period while your brothers were there.

19       A.   He -- my husband didn't sleep in his parents' home often because

20    he often went to Prijedor.

21       Q.   Where did he sleep in Prijedor?

22       A.   In our apartment.

23       Q.   Were there any problems with apartments in those days?

24       A.   My sister-in-law had an apartment in Prijedor and then we were

25    told that somebody had broken into that apartment, and he went to check

Page 7935

 1    and at the same time to check on our own apartment.

 2       Q.   Were people watching their apartments those days in case they

 3    would be burgled?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   Mrs. Kvocka, did you send any parcels to Omarska?

 6       A.   I did.

 7       Q.   How many such parcels?  Do you remember?

 8       A.   There were so many you couldn't count.  When my husband and I

 9    would go to check on our apartment or spend the night there, we would find

10    a whole pile of bags with notes attached with names on them.

11       Q.   What would you do?

12       A.   We would carry them into the apartment, then load them onto the

13    car.  There were so many we could hardly sit properly.  Then we'd take

14    them to Omarska.  So people would appear at our apartment that I had never

15    known from before, asking me to see, through my husband, whether he could

16    check whether her husband was there or her brother was there, with the

17    name written on that piece of paper.

18       Q.   You mentioned parcels.  How frequently would that happen?

19       A.   On a daily basis while he was working there, sometimes twice a

20    day, and sometimes he would come back to Prijedor three times.  My mother

21    organised these parcels and Began's mother, because they are old-timers in

22    Prijedor.  And I don't know why they stuck to my husband so much; there

23    were other people working there, but there were enormous quantities and my

24    husband was concerned.

25       Q.   Were there some acquaintances who were sending parcels in that

Page 7936

 1    way?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   Could you mention some names?

 4       A.   That I sent parcels to, or my mother?

 5       Q.   No, your acquaintances who asked you to carry these parcels.

 6       A.   Yes.  My general manager's wife asked me to carry parcels, my

 7    colleagues, my brothers' colleagues, my neighbours.

 8       Q.   What was your general manager's name?

 9       A.   Mehmija Dzafic.  We brought back -- we took the message to him

10    that his wife and children were fine, as well as a parcel for him.

11       Q.   The parcels that were sent there, did you know the people who were

12    sending them every time?

13       A.   I'm sorry, what do you mean every time, or on other occasions?

14       Q.   You were just mentioning people you knew, but did you always know

15    the people who had brought those parcels to your doorstep?

16       A.   No, I didn't.

17       Q.   How could people know that a parcel should be brought to your

18    mother or to your apartment for your husband to transport them to the

19    camp?

20       A.   I don't know.  I suppose they trusted me and my husband, but other

21    people carried parcels too.

22       Q.   How do you know that?

23       A.   Well, I assumed they trusted him.

24       Q.   How did they know that parcels were being carried there?

25       A.   Because everybody had somebody they knew of there.  Then messages

Page 7937













13   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the English

14   and French transcripts.












Page 7938

 1    would be exchanged via the guards and they would say Kvocka would bring

 2    those parcels.

 3       Q.   Were such rumours spread in town?

 4       A.   Yes, because somebody would stop you in the street, give you a

 5    hug, and say, "You know, my son has sent a message to confirm that he

 6    received what I sent him."  Now, how that person had learnt that his son

 7    had received a parcel, I really don't know.

 8       Q.   But these people you mentioned who stopped you in the street, you

 9    hadn't known them from before?

10       A.   No, I knew those that I knew personally.  My mother would prepare

11    parcels for all the people she knew herself.

12       Q.   Did your person send a parcel herself as a gift from her?

13       A.   She did.

14       Q.   Did your mother, I'm sorry, did your mother.

15       A.  (redacted).

16       Q.   Who was he [as translated]?

17       A. (redacted)

18    (redacted).

19       Q.   What was the relationship between your mother and (redacted)

20    (redacted)

21       A. (redacted).

22       Q.   What was the difference in age?

23       A.   Well, my mother could have been her mother.  She was that much

24    older.

25            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter corrects herself, it should be

Page 7939

 1    (redacted).

 2            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, we were just checking

 3    the transcript.

 4       Q.   Did you know (redacted)?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   Did (redacted)?

 7       A.   He did.

 8       Q.   Did you know a person called Ranko Saric?

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   Who was Ranko Saric?

11       A.   He was my husband's uncle; his mother's brother.

12       Q.   Where did he live?

13       A.   In Prijedor.

14       Q.   Where did he work?

15       A.   He worked in a Zagreb company.  He had spent some time -- he was

16    working in Libya, and he would occasionally come to Prijedor.

17       Q.   Was he married?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   Did he have children?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   How many?

22       A.   Two.

23       Q. (redacted)?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   How well?

Page 7940

 1       A.   I feel a bit embarrassed.  I really don't know how to put it.

 2    They would come to visit us in the evening.  They were rather close.

 3       Q.   Mrs. Kvocka, Ranko Saric (redacted), did they have an

 4    emotional relationship?

 5       A.   I think so.

 6            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, your questions went

 7    like this:  Did they know each other; secondly, did they know each other

 8    well; third question, did they have an emotional relationship.  All this

 9    could have been said simply:  What type of relationship did they have?

10    Otherwise, you are testifying instead of the witness.  Please proceed.

11            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation]

12       Q.   Were there any consequences for Mr. Saric's marriage as a result

13    of that relationship?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   What were the consequences?

16       A.   We were all sorry to see the marriage fall apart because of a

17    fleeting affair.

18       Q.   What was your husband's attitude towards this relationship between

19    his husband [as interpreted] and (redacted)?

20       A.   We were all sorry for the child.  My mother -- my husband was also

21    sorry to see the marriage break up.

22       Q.   Sorry, because of the transcript, let me repeat the question for

23    the record.  What was Mr. Kvocka's attitude towards the relationship

24    between (redacted)?

25       A.   He did not approve of that relationship.

Page 7941

 1       Q.   Did he show his disapproval openly?

 2       A.   Yes, when we spoke about it.

 3       Q.   Thank you.  Mrs. Kvocka, how did people in mixed marriages react

 4    to these trials we were going through?

 5       A.   Well, it depended.

 6       Q.   Was there pressure on these mixed marriages?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   What does "kumship" means in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 9       A.   It's like being blood brothers.  It's a very close tie between

10    people.

11       Q.   Were you kum and your husband to anyone during the war?

12       A.   Yes, to Hasan Oklopcic and Ljilja Jesic.

13       Q.   What ethnicity is Mr. Hasan Oklopcic?

14       A.   A Muslim.

15       Q.   And what is Mr. Ljilja Jesic by ethnicity?

16       A.   A Serb.

17       Q.   How did that wedding, how was the wedding celebrated?

18       A.   In the building where it is celebrated, and afterwards we returned

19    to my apartment to continue the celebration.

20       Q.   What was the attitude of yourself and your husband towards the

21    Oklopcic couple?

22       A.   We were good friends.

23       Q.   Were you kums?

24       A.   Yes.  We were witnesses at their wedding, or kums.

25       Q.   Was your husband a friend of your kums in public?

Page 7942

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   Where did they go?

 3       A.   Well, in those days people didn't go often to cafes, but the two

 4    of them did socialise often, and then a couple of Hasan's friends would

 5    join them.  We would go to the beach, or rather, to the River Sana banks

 6    for bathing.

 7       Q.   What was Oklopcic's occupation?  What was he by profession?

 8       A.   Hasan was an electrician, and I think he worked for the Gradnja

 9    company in Prijedor.

10       Q.   After you became kums, did he work in Prijedor?

11       A.   No.  There wasn't work in Prijedor, but they managed to find him

12    something through my husband, and he eventually found work with Mr. Vila.

13       Q.   Did he do anything else?  Was he working on any other construction

14    sites?

15       A.   Well, maybe they did.  If people had minor problems with

16    electricity or if the house in question had sustained some damage, then

17    they would go and repair those minor damages.  So he did have a number of

18    odd jobs at the time.

19       Q.   Mrs. Kvocka, when did the members of your family leave Prijedor?

20    I'm referring to your brothers and your mother.  Do you remember that?

21       A.   They didn't all leave at the same time.  It depended on the

22    transports.  They went individually.  My youngest brother was the last one

23    to leave the town.  He went to Prijedor, but it was -- he went to Travnik,

24    via Travnik.

25       Q.   Could you tell us in what year that was?  When did they leave

Page 7943

 1    Prijedor?

 2       A.   It was eight years ago.

 3       Q.   You said you worked at the Pobjeda company.

 4       A.   Yes.  I worked there for 29 years.

 5       Q.   What was the business that the company was involved with?

 6       A.   It was a sewing company, and they did business with foreign

 7    companies.

 8       Q.   In 1992, did they have some particular contracts on particular

 9    commission, on loan?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   What was it?

12       A.   We made uniforms.

13       Q.   Who did you do that for?  Who was the commissioner?

14       A.   I wouldn't know that.

15            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I should now like the witness to be

16    shown Exhibit number 3/81.

17            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, the exhibit you

18    requested is a Prosecution exhibit or a Defence exhibit?

19            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] It's a Prosecution exhibit.  I have

20    it here.  Maybe it would be easier for me to give it to the witness so as

21    to not waste time.

22            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.  Mr. Usher, please,

23    Mr. Simic has the exhibit in his hands, so perhaps you can give it to the

24    witness.

25            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation]

Page 7944

 1       Q.   Mrs. Kvocka, on the photograph in front of you, you can see three

 2    individuals in identical uniforms.  Your company, did they sew this type

 3    of uniform?

 4       A.   Yes, they did.

 5       Q.   While we still have the photograph on the ELMO and in front of

 6    you, can you tell us if you know any of the four individuals that you can

 7    see on the picture?

 8       A.   I don't know the first one, I don't know the second one, whereas

 9    the third one, he's not very clear, but I believe that it is Zeljko

10    Meakic.

11       Q.   Can you point to the face of Zeljko Meakic?

12       A.   [Indicates]

13       Q.   Yes.  Thank you.  Could you have a look at the uniform of

14    Mr. Zeljko Meakic once again.

15            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I no longer need the exhibit.

16    Thank you.

17       Q.   Did your husband receive the same uniform at the time?

18       A.   No, he did not.  I made this kind of uniform for my husband

19    myself.

20       Q.   If I understand you correctly, at that time, your husband had a

21    uniform in this colour; is that correct?

22       A.   Yes, it is.

23       Q.   In 1992, did your husband wear any other type of police uniform,

24    the one that was usually worn by the police force, if you can remember?

25       A.   Well, later on --

Page 7945

 1       Q.   I'm referring to 1992.  What other kind of uniform did he have at

 2    the time?

 3       A.   He had a blue police uniform as well.

 4            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown Exhibit

 5    number 34/1, Defence Exhibit 34/1.

 6       Q.   You have it on the monitor.  Mrs. Kvocka, are you familiar with

 7    this type of uniform?

 8       A.   Yes, I am.

 9       Q.   What kind of uniform is it?

10       A.   It's a blue police shirt.

11       Q.   In addition to the uniform that you have just shown us, did your

12    husband have this kind of uniform as well in 1992?

13       A.   No.

14       Q.   Did he have a different blue uniform?

15       A.   I believe that this shirt was usually worn with dark blue

16    trousers.

17       Q.   I know.  I'm asking you whether he also wore this kind of shirt at

18    the time.

19       A.   Yes, he did.

20       Q.   You also say that it was usually worn with dark blue trousers.

21       A.   Yes, that is correct.

22            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.  We no longer

23    need the exhibit.

24       Q.   Mrs. Kvocka, do you know the person by the name of Mevludin

25    Zelenkic?

Page 7946

 1       A.   Yes, I do.

 2       Q.   How do you know him?

 3       A.   I know him from Prijedor.

 4       Q.   During the course of 1993 and 1994, did you have any contact with

 5    him?

 6       A.   Yes, I did.

 7       Q.   What kind of contact did you have?

 8       A.   It's a very long story.  We met by accident.

 9       Q.   Where did he live in 1994?

10       A.   He lived in Cela, then he was evicted from his house but was later

11    on given a house by the municipality in Raskovac, in the village of

12    Raskovac.

13       Q.   Was he living in your parents' house for a while?

14       A.   He was evicted also from the house which had been given to him by

15    the municipality, and when he was chased away from Cela, I received him in

16    my house.

17       Q.   Who else was with him?

18       A.   His son.

19       Q.   What was his name?

20       A.   Eno.

21       Q.   For the record, would you please spell the name of his son.

22       A.   Eno, E-n-o.

23       Q.   Where did Eno sleep?

24       A.   He slept with my Sinisa, my son.

25       Q.   What kind of food did you have at the time?  What did you eat?

Page 7947

 1       A.   We ate what we had at the time, and he ate with us.  He ate the

 2    same kind of food we did.

 3       Q.   Mr. Zelenkic and his son Eno, did they receive any assistance?

 4    Did they receive any aid?  Did anyone send them anything?

 5       A.   I think they received something from his sister.

 6       Q.   Do you know Milan Stojsavljevic?

 7       A.   You mean Stojan Stojsavljevic.

 8       Q.   Yes.  I'm sorry.

 9       A.   Yes, I know him.

10       Q.   Do you know his wife?  What was his wife's name, if you know?

11       A.   Marija.

12       Q.   Who are Dusan and Marija Stojsavljevic?

13       A.   They're refugees from Bihac.

14       Q.   How did you get to meet them?

15       A.   Do you want the whole story?

16       Q.   I'm just interested in how they ended up in your house.

17       A.   I think that Stojan was an inspector in Bihac, and I think that

18    Marija worked in DB.  They were given a house to live in Prijedor, but

19    then somebody came and evicted them from that house, so they went to the

20    SUP building because they were employees of SUP, and they wanted them to

21    help them.

22            Miroslav Kvocka, my husband, happened to be on duty that evening,

23    that day, and he simply called me and he told me, "I have two people here,

24    Jasna.  See if you can put them up for some time."  So that is how they

25    came to my house and remained there for a year and a half.  That is how it

Page 7948

 1    happened.

 2       Q.   What was their ethnicity?

 3       A.   They were Serbs.

 4       Q.   Did that happen at the same time where Zelenkic was at your house

 5    with his son?

 6       A.   Yes.  They lived in the same part of the house.

 7       Q.   What did Stojsavljevics eat?

 8       A.   Marija was a very good cook.  She would make excellent pita, and

 9    the men would usually play cards while she was cooking.  She also prepared

10    food for myself and my children.  We were like one big family.  We really

11    went along very well.

12       Q.   Did you have any contact with the Stojsavljevic family after they

13    left your house?

14       A.   Yes, I did.

15       Q.   Do you know where they live today?

16       A.   Yes, I do; in Novi Sad.  They sold their house in Bihac and now

17    they have a house in Novi Sad.

18       Q.   You told us how people that you didn't know would greet you in the

19    street and thank you for the parcels that you were sending.  I would like

20    to know whether you had any contact with the people who were in the

21    Omarska camp.

22       A.   Yes, I did.

23       Q.   I mean after the camp was closed down.

24       A.   Yes, I did.

25       Q.   Do you know Sureta Hrnic?

Page 7949

 1       A.   Yes, I do.

 2       Q.   Was he [as translated] also in the Omarska camp?

 3       A.   I didn't know she was, but when I saw her, she told me that.

 4       Q.   What did she tell you?

 5       A.   She told me that I should look after my husband.

 6       Q.   Why did she tell you that?

 7       A.   She said that I should look after him and protect him, that he had

 8    been fair and correct towards them, and --

 9       Q.   How did you know Mrs. Hrnic?

10       A.   We used to work together for 29 years in the same company.

11       Q.   Did you have any similar encounters with such people?

12       A.   Yes, I did.

13       Q.   What would people usually tell you on such occasions?

14       A.   Many Muslims have returned to Prijedor in the meantime, and they

15    would usually tell me, "Be brave, be courageous.  You've been through a

16    lot.  You're the one who knows Miro best.  We really believe that there is

17    nothing against him, and that everything will end well."

18       Q.   Are you referring to the people who were in Omarska, in the

19    Omarska camp?

20       A.   Yes, I am.

21       Q.   In addition to that encouragement, did they tell you anything

22    about how he behaved there?  What did they usually tell you about him?

23       A.   In the family house of my in-laws, I had an opportunity to meet

24    with (redacted), for example.  The atmosphere was really very relaxed

25    and we talked a lot, and he was quite impressed.

Page 7950

 1       Q.   When did you meet (redacted)?  How did it happen?

 2       A.   My mother-in-law celebrates his -- her slava on St. John's day,

 3    Jovandan.

 4       Q.   You mentioned your daughter Sanela.  Did she marry in the mean --

 5    has she gotten married in the meantime?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   What is her family name, her surname now?

 8       A.   Blazevic.

 9       Q.   What is her husband's name?

10       A.   Sandro.

11       Q.   What is your son-in-law by ethnicity?

12       A.   He's a Croat.

13            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I should like to

14    thank Mrs. Kvocka at this point because I have no further questions for

15    her.

16            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Simic.

17    I think this is a convenient time for us to have a break.  Let me ask the

18    usher to accompany the witness out of the courtroom first.

19            We will have a 30-minute break.

20                          --- Recess taken at 11.20 a.m.

21                          --- On resuming at 11.53 a.m.

22            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.

23            Mrs. Kvocka, you are now going to be answering questions put to

24    you by the Prosecutor, Ms. Susan Somers.

25            Please proceed, Ms. Susan Somers.

Page 7951

 1                          Cross-examined by Ms. Somers:

 2       Q.   Mrs. Kvocka, is your real name Jasminka or is that a nickname?

 3       A.   No.  Jasminka is my real name.  My nickname is Minka, short for

 4    Jasminka.

 5       Q.   Have you been following this trial since it began or at any point

 6    along its course?

 7       A.   What I saw on television, what was televised in our country.

 8       Q.   And which television station is televising this in your country,

 9    please?

10       A.   It depends.  Sometimes you can see some of the television stations

11    on BH television.

12       Q.   Up until the time you arrived in The Hague to testify, when was

13    the last time you spoke with your husband?

14       A.   Yesterday.

15       Q.   Before you arrived here, prior to coming here.  When was the last

16    time you talked to him before you made it to The Hague?

17       A.   The day I was to fly out to The Hague, we heard each other over

18    the phone.

19       Q.   Have you discussed your evidence with your husband?  Anything

20    you've said today or been asked today, have you discussed this with your

21    husband, honestly?

22       A.   No.  And I think all our conversations are taped, exist on tape.

23       Q.   The Chamber has heard a great deal of evidence that your husband

24    is an intelligent man, a professional, and an experienced policeman who

25    was, at various points, respected by persons of all ethnicities.  Do you

Page 7952

 1    agree with this assessment?  Is that your opinion too?

 2       A.   And more than that.  He is even more intelligence and even more of

 3    a good man.

 4       Q.   Do you think that your husband was being frank with you about when

 5    he learned of the takeover by the Serbs of Prijedor municipality?

 6       A.   He didn't know about it, and I believe him.

 7       Q.   I would like to ask you, there was an article that was written

 8    about your husband and yourself in -- and it was published in Slobodna

 9    Bosna in 1998.  It was referred to by your husband's lawyer, Mr. Simic, at

10    the hearing for provisional release, and I would ask if you remember being

11    interviewed by a man named Christopher Bennett who came up from Sarajevo

12    after he found out about your husband's indictment.  Do you remember

13    that?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   Where did the interview take place, Mrs. Kvocka?

16       A.   In my parents' family house, where we were staying.

17       Q.   And this was roughly the 10th of April or so, 1998?  Roughly.

18       A.   Perhaps, yes.

19       Q.   Did you welcome in Mr. Bennett?  Was there any problem for him to

20    have access to you?  Were you okay with his coming and talking to you?

21       A.   He came several times.  I think we refused two or three times.  We

22    didn't want to do it, but he was very persistent, and then we ended up by

23    accepting to talk to him.

24       Q.   Was it a comfortable interaction between you and him and your

25    husband?  Was it okay?

Page 7953

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   And did you --

 3       A.   It was okay.

 4       Q.   I'm sorry, I should slow down.

 5            Did you read the article which he wrote which was published in

 6    Slobodna Bosna?

 7       A.   No.

 8            MS. SOMERS:  I'd like to ask the usher to distribute, please, to

 9    all persons Prosecution's Exhibit 3/201 and 3/202.

10       Q.   Mrs. Kvocka, so you know what is happening, I'm going to show to

11    the Judges and to the attorneys the article which appeared in Slobodna

12    Bosna, along with a translation of it, and then that very same article was

13    incorporated into a broadcast of, I believe it's called "Free Radio

14    Prijedor" sometime later, along with some additional material.

15            Do you know a Radio Free or Free Radio Prijedor?  Are you familiar

16    with that?  Are you familiar with that radio station in your area?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   Principally, it probably will be easier just to refer to the

19    Slobodna Bosna article as it is incorporated into the other document.  One

20    of the -- Mrs. Kvocka, I will only be able to point out in English the

21    article sections that I think might be concerning you, but one of the

22    questions that Mr. Bennett posed to you -- and this is Mr. Bennett who is

23    of the International Crisis Group, is that correct, the man from Sarajevo

24    from one of the official agencies?  Did he tell you that?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 7954

 1       Q.   Thank you very much, Mrs. Kvocka.  He asked you a little bit about

 2    yourself on page 9 of 3/201, which is the 10 April 1998 Slobodna Bosna

 3    interview.  That's where it begins about you.

 4            Now, were you present the whole time your husband was being talked

 5    to by Mr. Bennett?  Were you there for the whole interview?  Mrs. Kvocka,

 6    were you present for the whole interview while Mr. Bennett talked with

 7    your husband and then he later talked to you?  Were you present when he

 8    talked to your husband as well?

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   Looking at page 9, Mr. Bennett asks you a question -- excuse me, I

11    hope I have the right page.  I'm terribly sorry.  Actually, it's page 10

12    where he asks you, "Did you know that Muslims and Croats were maltreated

13    at the camp in Omarska?"  And your answer was, "No."

14       A.   That's right.

15       Q.   And then he asked you, "What did you think when you heard that

16    your husband had been accused of war crimes?"  And then you gave an

17    answer, "I don't know.  I've been living with the man for 20 years.  We

18    never quarrelled."  Then you even said, "And if everything were to happen

19    again, this war and all this, I would marry a Serb again.  If someone has

20    to go to The Hague, then I shall go to The Hague because he defended my

21    people."

22            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection.

23            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Simic.

24            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

25            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] My learned colleague is suggesting

Page 7955

 1    an answer.  She is saying that Mrs. Kvocka would marry after the war, but

 2    Mrs. Kvocka was speaking about the qualities of her husband as a man.

 3            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, I think that

 4    Ms. Susan Somers read the interview, quoted from the portion of the

 5    interview, and I think that we all understand that when it says [In

 6    English] "I would marry a Serb again," it was her husband.

 7            Continue, Ms. Susan Somers.

 8       A.   Just a moment, please.  That's how I understood the question, and

 9    that's how I answered it.  After 20 years, well, I couldn't marry someone

10    else, I'm already married, and I had my husband in mind, of course.  I

11    meant my husband.

12            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please answer Ms. Susan Somers'

13    question.  I think that the answer was clear.  That is what I myself

14    understood.  I'm not quite clear on the objection made by Mr. Simic.

15            Mr. Simic, let's go back.  What was your problem actually?  Why

16    did you raise your objection?  Perhaps I didn't understand you properly.

17    Could you give it to us again?  Was it a question that you were -- that it

18    was a leading question?  Was that why you were objecting; you thought it

19    leading?

20            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] The question contained an

21    observation, And if everything happened again, I would marry a Serb.  "If

22    everything were to happen again," and my learned colleague did not

23    ascertain what the witness knows as to what happened, what occurred.  So

24    that was the essence of my objection.

25            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, but the witness is going to

Page 7956

 1    answer, so please continue, Ms. Somers.

 2            MS. SOMERS:  Thank you, I have not actually -- thank you,

 3    Mrs. Kvocka.

 4            I have not actually posed a further question yet.  I just wanted

 5    to point out to the Chamber that the second answer that Mrs. Kvocka gave

 6    was exactly what Mr. Simic said.  And I would like to ask the Chamber to

 7    perhaps bear with us, that this appears to be a recurring pattern in the

 8    course of these so-called objections that are made.

 9       Q.   Mrs. Kvocka --

10            MS. SOMERS:   My learned colleague, excuse me, pointed out that

11    the objection took three minutes.

12       Q.   Mrs. Kvocka, could you tell us, please, you mentioned in the

13    course of your direct testimony that when it came to discussing certain

14    things, your husband wanted to spare you.  You used the word "spare."  Was

15    he, to the best of your understanding, him as your husband, concerned

16    about how you would react to the things that happened around you?  Was he

17    concerned about that?

18       A.   Probably.  It's a marriage out of love, and he was probably afraid

19    of what would happen to me.

20       Q.   Well, when you were asked if he told you details of what was going

21    on in the camp, and you said in your interview with Mr. Bennett that you

22    did not know, did you not discuss what was happening in that camp when he

23    came home?  And if you didn't, was he trying to spare you some terrible

24    stuff?

25       A.   Well, yes.  And my husband is a professional policeman, so he

Page 7957

 1    spoke about his job very little.  And he's that kind of man by nature.

 2    You could never learn anything from him about his job.  And he wouldn't be

 3    a good policeman if he were to come home and report to his wife, tell her

 4    what had happened in the course of the day.  We had our family -- the

 5    family subjects and topics we discussed about our children, their

 6    schooling, and so on.  So we never used to discuss his job, even before

 7    these events took place, and especially not then.  We were just wondering

 8    what was going to happen.

 9       Q.   Well, I can appreciate that, Mrs. Kvocka.  And your having said

10    that, it would make sense that he would not tell you about a pre-planned,

11    well-organised takeover of Prijedor, would he?  I mean, that's police

12    material.  That's not to be discussed at home, is it?  It's inside

13    information.

14       A.   Well, he didn't know about it.  Had he known about it, he probably

15    would have talked to me about it.

16       Q.   But he knew what was going on at Omarska camp, and he didn't tell

17    you.  He was sparing you.  Was he not sparing you your concern by not

18    telling you about the upcoming planned takeover?  That's what happened,

19    isn't it?  It would have upset you.

20       A.   I can't answer that question.  I don't know how to answer it.

21       Q.   Mrs. Kvocka, the days before, the time before this takeover of

22    April 30, 1992, was your husband working the same hours or did you find

23    him working more hours, maybe more stress?  What was your observation as a

24    wife?

25       A.   I think he worked the same shifts, the same hours.

Page 7958

 1       Q.   Well, did your kids feel that he was spending the same amount of

 2    time with them that he had spent before or was there any change in his

 3    fatigue level when he came home?

 4       A.   Well, I couldn't notice anything.

 5       Q.   Did he work -- do you remember the night before the takeover?

 6    Which shift was he working the day or the night before?  Does that stick

 7    out in your mind because of the seriousness of the event?  Do you remember

 8    what shift he was working?

 9       A.   I think he did the afternoon shift.

10       Q.   And when would he have finished that shift?  Those are long

11    shifts, are they not?  When would he have finished that shift?

12       A.   While he worked at the police force before that, their working

13    hours were set, but then -- well, I don't really know.

14       Q.   Do you remember what time he came home that evening, the evening

15    before the takeover was made known to you?

16       A.   In the afternoon sometime.

17       Q.   Did he have dinner with you that night, with the kids?

18       A.   No.

19       Q.   Do you know where he had dinner?

20       A.   He didn't have dinner.  Well, we didn't have dinner, me or the

21    children either.  We didn't have a properly prepared dinner.  We just had

22    a little something to eat.

23       Q.   We're talking about the night of the 29th of April; is that

24    right?

25       A.   Yes.  We were in a hurry because we were getting ready for the 1st

Page 7959

 1    of May holiday.  So we didn't want to actually prepare any heavy dinners.

 2    We were focusing on the holiday preparations.

 3       Q.   I'd like to ask you if you recognise a few names, and you can tell

 4    me, if you do, how you do.  Ago Sadikovic.  Is that name familiar, Ago

 5    Sadikovic?

 6       A.   I don't know him personally.

 7       Q.   Well, do you know of him?

 8       A.   No.

 9       Q.   Mirsad Alisic?  I think that's how it's pronounced, Alisic.

10       A.   No.

11       Q.   Hamdija Arifagic?

12       A.   Yes, yes.

13       Q.   How did you know Hamdija Arifagic?

14       A.   Hamdija Arifagic worked with my husband in the police station in

15    Omarska, and we would go to our weekend cottage often.  I know his wife,

16    his daughters.  He has two daughters.  We were good friends.

17       Q.   Whose weekend cottage did you go to, theirs or yours?

18       A.   Mine, ours.

19       Q.   Did you know Fikret Harambasic?

20       A.   Perhaps he had a nickname, because Harambasic is something I

21    recognise but not the name Fikret.  I recognise the surname.

22       Q.   These were people who were police officers.  Maybe Fiko was his

23    name.  Does that sound right, Fiko?  Was that a nickname?  Fiko

24    Harambasic, does that sound right?  If not, it's okay, but these were

25    policemen whose names are familiar because they work with your husband.

Page 7960













13   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the English

14   and French transcripts.












Page 7961

 1    Did your husband ever tell you that these people were in Omarska camp?

 2            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection.  Objection, Your

 3    Honour.

 4            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Simic.  Of all the

 5    names, Mrs. Kvocka just said that she knew Hamdija Arifagic.  She didn't

 6    say she knew the others or that they were familiar or that they worked

 7    with her husband.

 8            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.  Ms. Susan Somers.

 9            MS. SOMERS:  As I look at the question, Your Honour, "These are

10    policemen whose names are familiar because they work with your husband."

11    Now, a name -- I can certainly rephrase it, gladly, to say:

12       Q.   Was the name Arifagic familiar to you because he worked with your

13    husband?  Is that the only reason?

14       A.   Well, the surname, but - I apologise to Mr. Prcac - Mr. Prcac, for

15    example, worked with my husband, or Radic, but I don't -- I just met

16    Mr. Prcac here.  Mr. Radic I met in Prijedor and saw him twice in my

17    life.  So I don't actually know them.

18       Q.   Did you ever hear from your husband what happened to Hamdija

19    Arifagic?  Did you learn from anybody what happened to him?  Do you see

20    him around Prijedor any more?

21       A.   No, I didn't see him around in Prijedor.

22       Q.   Do you wonder why?  Do you know why?

23       A.   I met his wife once.

24       Q.   What did she tell you?

25       A.   She didn't know anything either.

Page 7962

 1       Q.   Then you're not aware that he died as a result of being in the

 2    Omarska camp?  You're not aware of that?  Is today the first time you're

 3    learning that fact?

 4       A.   Yes, today for the first -- it's not that I heard for the first

 5    time, but nothing was known about that.

 6       Q.   Mrs. Kvocka, when your husband started working at the Omarska

 7    camp, did you ever go visit him at the camp?  Were you ever in the Omarska

 8    camp?

 9       A.   No.

10       Q.   Did you ever go visit him when he worked at the Omarska Police

11    Station or the police station department, whatever name we want to refer

12    to it as?  Did you ever appear in the station?  Do they know you there?

13       A.   In the Omarska Police Station, no.

14       Q.   In all the years he worked there and all the years of your

15    marriage, you never visited him at the police station or you've never been

16    to the police station?

17       A.   No.  Well, perhaps in the afternoon I would be walking around with

18    my children on my way to a friend and I might have passed the police

19    station in Omarska.

20       Q.   Was there camaraderie, was there a closeness between the families

21    of the policemen before the war?  You mentioned that you had a summer home

22    that the Arifagics would go to.  Was that typical of the relations between

23    and among police officers?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   Can you name some of the Muslim -- can you name some of the Muslim

Page 7963

 1    police officers' families, beside the Arifagics, with whom you were

 2    close?

 3       A.   Of the Muslim policemen, you mean.

 4       Q.   Yes.

 5       A. There was a young man Hari, there was (redacted). They would come to

 6    our weekend cottage often.

 7       Q.   And what was (redacted) first name?  Do you remember?

 8       A.   I don't know.

 9       Q.   Have you seen him since Omarska?

10       A.   No.

11       Q.   Would you have any idea why, why you haven't seen him since your

12    husband was serving at Omarska camp?

13       A.   Well, there are many that I haven't seen.

14    Q. You do not know that he is dead, that Mr. (redacted) is dead, following

15    his internment at Omarska camp?  Is this the first time you're hearing

16    that today?

17       A.   Well, probably, as he didn't appear all these years and nobody

18    knew anything about him.

19       Q.   You mentioned that your husband, while he was working at Omarska,

20    would have packages left for him to take to various persons in the Omarska

21    camp and notes, you said notes.  Am I correct people would write notes so

22    that their loved ones in the camp or that they suspected were in the camp

23    would know that the food was from them?  Is that right?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   Now, do you know whether or not these people who were supposed to

Page 7964

 1    receive these parcels, did they ever receive the parcels?  Do you know

 2    that for a fact?

 3       A.   In most cases I do know and they did because they would meet me

 4    and say that the packages had been received or that they had received the

 5    messages or whatever.

 6       Q.   But there were some instances where you don't know; is that right?

 7       A.   Well, I didn't keep a record.  I didn't keep a record of whom I

 8    took the packages to, nor did that person give me a receipt to say that

 9    they had received the package.  But as I say, most of the people did

10    receive the packages.

11       Q.   To whom your husband gave the packages.  You didn't deliver them

12    to Omarska, your husband did, right?  Do we understand each other?  It was

13    your husband that took these packages to Omarska?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   Now, did he ever bring back from those persons who were receiving

16    the parcels a note for the family members who sent the parcels, saying,

17    "Hi, I'm alive and well.  Don't worry about me.  Things are okay"?  Did

18    he ever bring back notes to disperse to these very concerned family

19    members?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   Tell me, please, name the persons from whom these notes were

22    sent.  Who wrote those notes that your husband brought back?

23       A.   My general manager, Mehmija Dzafic, didn't know where his wife and

24    two sons were.  And his wife brought me a piece of paper on which it said,

25    "We're alive and well.  Don't worry."  And my husband took this to him.

Page 7965

 1    Or another young girl, her name was Suada.  She had four sisters and six

 2    brothers and didn't know what had happened to one of them, and she brought

 3    a message just to see whether her brother was there.

 4       Q.   Was Mr. Dzafic in Omarska?  Was he in the camp?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   How did you find out he was in the camp?  How did you find that

 7    out?

 8       A.   Well, I didn't know, but his wife came to my apartment and brought

 9    a package for him and a message to be given to him.

10       Q.   And how did she know that he was in the camp?

11       A.   Well, you should ask her.  She didn't know whether he was in

12    Keraterm, Trnopolje, or Omarska, but probably in different ways and

13    through different people she asked around to learn where he was.

14       Q.   So you had to ask around to find out which camp your loved ones

15    were in, or if your loved ones were alive?  You had to ask around, is that

16    what you're telling us?

17       A.   That's logical, yes.

18       Q.   But your husband knew that Mr. Dzafic was in the camp.  Did he

19    volunteer that information to you, or did you hear it from Dzafic's wife?

20       A.   My husband did not know whether Dzafic was there.  She just sent

21    these -- messages of this kind to other people, too, so that they should

22    check and see where her husband actually was.

23            JUDGE RODRIGUES: Ms. Susan Somers, we have always this problem,

24    sorry to -- when you said, "your husband knew that Mr. Dzafic was in the

25    camp," you are assuming.  So maybe you would first ask, "Did your husband

Page 7966

 1    know that this was in the camp?"  So do you understand what I'm saying?

 2            MS. SOMERS:  Yes, thank you, Your Honour.  Yes, yes, I think

 3    it's --

 4            JUDGE RODRIGUES:  The problem is sometimes you put two questions

 5    at the same time.  Put one, have the answer, and then the second.

 6            MS. SOMERS:  May I rephrase it?

 7            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So, okay, let's go.

 8            MS. SOMERS:

 9       Q.   Did your husband tell you all -- the names of all of your friends,

10    relatives, and work colleagues who may have been in Omarska camp?  Did he

11    tell you that?  Did he indicate he knew that?

12       A.   If he happened to meet somebody whom he knew or if somebody went

13    up to him, then he would tell me that he'd seen so and so that he knew,

14    for example.

15       Q.   Did you have any type of relationship at all with your

16    brother-in-law Zoran Kvocka?  Did you see him socially?

17       A.   Yes.  We slept in the same house.  We saw each other, of course we

18    did.

19       Q.   Did he ever mention to you the name Cigo, or did you know that

20    name Cigo?

21       A.   I have been -- I am from Omarska and have been living there for

22    many, many years, and I know many people in Omarska.

23       Q.   I didn't say that the person Cigo was from Omarska, I just asked

24    you if he mentioned, Zoran mentioned the name Cigo to you?

25       A.   Well, then, yes.

Page 7967

 1       Q.   Did he mention that he was also in the Omarska camp at any point

 2    in time?  Did he ever tell you that, your brother-in-law Zoran?

 3       A.   My brother-in-law Zoran, I know that he went to take some

 4    cigarettes to my brothers on one occasion.

 5       Q.   And when was that, please?

 6       A.   When my brothers were returned back to the camp.

 7       Q.   So it wasn't the 30th of May, it was sometime later?

 8       A.   When my husband took them back there, he went to visit them and

 9    took some cigarettes for them.

10       Q.   Was your husband close friends with a man from work named Momcilo

11    Gruban?  I think his nickname is Ckalja.  Do you know?

12            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection.

13            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Simic.

14            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Mrs. Kvocka never said that Momcilo

15    Gruban was a colleague from work, so I would like my learned friend to put

16    the question to the witness, "Did Momcilo Gruban work with your husband in

17    the police?"

18            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, the point is that you

19    are now asking your colleague to do something that you didn't do.  I

20    really think that we have a problem now because either we're going to

21    interrupt every time there's a leading question, then we will never get

22    through this.  You know that well.  Or we have to bear in mind that

23    interruptions, objections just for objection's sake disrupt the dynamics

24    of the testimony and one party.  So I'm going to ask both parties to bear

25    this in mind.

Page 7968

 1            And there's something else, too.  An objection may give the

 2    witness an indication of the answer she should give, and that is something

 3    I will not accept, so we have to be very careful.  If there is a

 4    substantive objection, I will accept it.  But objections for the sake of

 5    objections simply to interrupt the proceedings and for formal reasons, we

 6    will reach a stage when we will have to review everything all over again.

 7            Therefore, I am asking you, if possible, to control yourself and

 8    to bear all this in mind.

 9            MS. SOMERS:

10       Q.   Do you remember my question?  It was about a man named Momcilo

11    Gruban.  Do you know anything about your husband's relationship with this

12    man?

13       A.   I think that my husband and Gruban did not know each other before

14    the camp, that Ckalja I think was a reserve policeman over there.  He was

15    a worker in the mine, not a police officer.

16       Q.   Did you know --

17       A.   We met twice.

18       Q.   While your husband was working at Omarska camp, did he take his

19    lunch with him, or perhaps his dinner if it were an evening?

20       A.   While I was staying in his parents' house, he did occasionally,

21    because I and my brother would prepare certain Bosnian specialities like

22    burek, like bumbar, special dishes.

23       Q.   And he took that with him when he went to eat; it was good?

24       A.   Yes.  And to share with others, and to give some to my brothers or

25    others that he was able to pass on something to.

Page 7969

 1       Q.   Did he take something to drink with him?

 2       A.   I doubt it.  On one occasion, I sent my brothers two or three

 3    bottles of mineral water and a fruit juice.

 4       Q.   Did your husband bring his weapons home?  His weapons, did he

 5    bring them home?

 6       A.   As a policeman, he had a pistol.

 7       Q.   Did he have any other weapon at home that he got as a policeman?

 8       A.   No.

 9       Q.   Do you know whether or not your husband received any religious

10    memorabilia, books, from anyone in Omarska camp?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   What was that, if you know, if you remember?

13       A.   It was a Koran, but it's not the only one my husband brought.  I

14    have 50 or 70 Korans in my parents' house.  It's a holy book.  You can't

15    throw it away, you can't burn it, so they gave it to me to look after the

16    book, holy book, for them.

17       Q.   Who's "they"?  Who gave it?

18       A.   These people, my neighbours who didn't dare keep the book at

19    home.

20       Q.   Were they in the camp or were these neighbours that stayed in

21    Prijedor or neighbours who left Prijedor?  Who were these people?

22       A.   A man gave a copy to my husband in the camp, whereas at home, in

23    my case, my neighbours would come to my house and give it to me because as

24    they were leaving Prijedor, they were afraid to carry it with them.

25       Q.   Did your husband tell you of any request by the donor, by the

Page 7970

 1    person who gave that Koran to him, about what to do with it?

 2       A.   When he brought it, he said, "A man gave this to me to give to you

 3    to look after it for him because he feared to have it on him up there."

 4       Q.   Up there in Omarska camp; is that right?

 5       A.   Yes.  Yes.

 6       Q.   Now, did he tell you the name of this man who obviously knew your

 7    name or knew about you?  Did you recognise this?  What was your reaction?

 8       A.   He didn't tell me the name because he didn't know him.  This man

 9    had probably just heard that I was a Muslim.  I don't know why he gave it

10    to him and not to someone else.

11       Q.   Has anyone ever come back to claim this Koran from you after the

12    war ended?

13       A.   Yes.  Many have returned to Prijedor now, so I have returned two

14    or three of these Korans.  So when people who stayed on in Prijedor,

15    during the month of Ramadan, I would give them a Koran so that they can

16    pray, because this is a book you have to pray with during that holy

17    month.

18       Q.   This particular Koran that was given for safekeeping by a man

19    whose name you don't know in Omarska, has anyone ever come to claim it?

20       A.   Not yet.

21       Q.   Is your husband generally a man who is in good health?

22       A.   You mean my husband?  Look at him.

23       Q.   Was he generally a man who enjoyed good health?  Did he have any

24    medical problems that come to mind in 1991, 1992, 1993?  Anything jump out

25    at you?

Page 7971

 1       A.   Yes.  For two or three days, he couldn't go to work on one

 2    occasion.

 3       Q.   And when was that?

 4       A.   I don't know exactly, but I think that his boots hurt him, and he

 5    had some problem with his toenail and his heel.  It was very hot.  So

 6    Zeljko gave him two or three days' leave.

 7       Q.   And did he stay home during those two or three days?  What did he

 8    do?

 9       A.   Yes.  Nothing.  We were in the apartment.

10       Q.   Was that the first time in your 20-something years of marriage

11    that he had a problem with his feet?

12       A.   Yes.  Maybe in his youth, before we got married.  My husband and I

13    have 20 and 30 years of service.  I was never on sick leave except for my

14    period of delivery, my maternity leave, twice.

15       Q.   Has your husband always worn boots as part of his police garb or

16    uniform?

17       A.   No.  Sometimes he wore shoes, sometimes boots.

18       Q.   What time frame was this when you mentioned that a Zeljko gave him

19    some time off?  When was this?  Can you give us a specific date, please?

20       A.   I can't.  After so many years, really, I can't.

21       Q.   Surely if it only happened once in 20-some years, you would

22    remember.

23            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers, the witness

24    has given you an answer.  Please move on.

25            MS. SOMERS:  Thank you, Judge.  I'll move on.

Page 7972

 1       Q.   The career of your husband -- is everything okay?  Mrs. Kvocka, is

 2    everything okay?

 3       A.   Yes, yes.  It's okay.  Everything is fine.

 4       Q.   Your husband's police career continued after the war, didn't it?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   Did you ever visit him at any of the work locations that he may

 7    have been at, let's say, in 1995, 1996?

 8       A.   No.

 9       Q.   Do you know where he was working as a policeman in 1995, 1996?

10       A.   In Prijedor.

11       Q.   And what was he doing?

12       A.   He was a policeman.

13       Q.   In which station?  Do you know?

14       A.   The police station in Prijedor.  As Chris Bennett said, across the

15    way from the municipality.

16       Q.   And who was his chief or his superior at that police station?

17       A.   I have no idea.

18       Q.   Well, now, who was his chief at the police station in Omarska

19    during 1992?

20       A.   In 1992?  I'm afraid I don't know that either.  I just know -- I

21    remember when Daljevic was his superior in the police station in Omarska

22    because I lived there then.  After that, I'm off to Prijedor, and how the

23    bosses changed over there, who was the chief in the police station, I

24    really don't know.

25       Q.   He never talked about his chiefs to you?

Page 7973

 1       A.   Madam, if I would come home from work and tell him how we were

 2    preparing 5.000 pieces of clothing for a Dutch customer, and if he were to

 3    tell me about the problems he had in the village and who his boss was, how

 4    would I get through all the other housework I had; the children, cooking,

 5    washing, ironing, preparing his uniform, making it clean?  We didn't

 6    discuss work.

 7       Q.   So that was a no to my question about discussing chiefs, is that

 8    right, it was a no?

 9       A.   We didn't talk about chiefs.

10       Q.   Did you ever -- you mentioned something earlier in your testimony

11    about the closeness of the (redacted).  I think you mentioned (redacted)

12    was close, that there was a certain trust that she showed toward your

13    family.  Would that be a fair assessment of the relationship?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   And was (redacted) also close?  Did you have a similar

16    relationship?

17       A.   Not quite.  Not as close.  Women have different relationships, men

18    different, but we did know each other.  We grew up in the same street.

19      Q. Was (redacted) ever in your house as a guest?  Did he ever come visit

20    you?

21       A.   He probably kept company with my brothers.

22       Q.   And how long did your husband (redacted)?  You said you grew

23    up with them, but how long did Mr. Kvocka know them?

24       A.   My husband was working in the SUP, in the police station in

25    Prijedor, and (redacted), doing something in the police

Page 7974

 1    station, in SUP.

 2       Q.   For how many years?  Do you know?

 3       A.   I don't.

 4       Q.   Are you ever aware of any bad blood between them, your husband and

 5    (redacted), prior to the war?

 6       A.   I doubt it.  I think there isn't a single person who can say that

 7    he wasn't on good terms with my husband, because he's that kind of

 8    person.  He never had any conflicts with anyone.

 9       Q. (redacted) ever come to you as a friend and suggest that perhaps

10    there might have been a relationship that your husband might have been

11    involved in occurring in the police department?

12       A.   What kind of relationship do you mean?

13       Q.   Do you know a woman named Slavica Lakic?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   How long have you known her?

16       A.   I know her for a long time.

17       Q.   And what does she do for a living?

18       A.   She worked in the police station in Prijedor, but what she did, I

19    don't know.

20       Q.   For how many years?  Do you know?

21       A.   I don't know.

22       Q.   Do you know whether or not she was working at Omarska camp?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   Do you know -- how do you know that?

25       A.   Because when my husband was thrown out of Omarska, I sent some

Page 7975

 1    things for my brothers through her.  You needed to have some connection.

 2       Q.   Did she give these things to your brothers?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   About your brothers, you mentioned three names and one of them

 5    wasn't familiar to me.  Could you just name them, please, their first

 6    names?  We know the last name is Crnalic.  What were the first names?

 7    Rezak?

 8       A.   Rezak, Adnan, and Nedzad.

 9       Q.   Did you use a nickname for Adnan?

10       A.   Dado.

11       Q.   That was the name I did not recognise.

12            Tell me, please, did Dado -- I'm sorry, did Nedzad ever tell you

13    that he in fact told the interrogators at Omarska that he did participate

14    in the, as it were, Prijedor incident, the attack on Prijedor?  Did he

15    tell you about what role he played?

16       A.   I think that he didn't take part in the attack on Prijedor.  You

17    can't put it like that.  There was guard duty at night in the streets, and

18    probably they, too, went out like that in the neighbourhoods, in local

19    communes, to keep guard duty.

20       Q.   So you did know that he told the investigators that in connection

21    with the Prijedor incidents, he did stand guard?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   Did you tell your husband that you knew this?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   What did he say?

Page 7976

 1       A.   Everybody did that, in the surrounding villages around Prijedor,

 2    in the centre of town, and everywhere.

 3       Q.   That everybody who stood guard during the attack on Prijedor, that

 4    was a common fact that was known to your husband?  He accepted that?

 5       A.   No.

 6            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection.

 7       A.   You didn't understand me.

 8            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, Mr. Simic.

 9            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Mrs. Kvocka said explicitly that

10    her brother did not take part in the attack, but that early on, he had

11    kept guard duty like the others.  But Ms. Somers was asking about keeping

12    guard duty during the attack.

13            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers.

14            MS. SOMERS:  Your Honour, my question was did he tell -- earlier,

15    did he tell Mrs. Kvocka, his sister, that he was keeping guard duty during

16    the attack, and her answer was -- she has extrapolated an answer that it

17    was not during the attack, but my specific inquiry was about what he was

18    doing during the attack and what he told the interrogator.

19            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please continue.

20            MS. SOMERS:

21       Q.   Did your in-laws, Mr. Kvocka's parents who were living at Omarska

22    with whom your brothers were deposited, did they know that he had been

23    standing guard in Prijedor and that he told the interrogator that?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   Were your brothers able to walk outside of the Kvocka home freely

Page 7977

 1    in Omarska?  Were they able to go outside for a breath of air, look in the

 2    garden, whatever?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   Were the neighbours on all sides of the Kvockas Serb, Croat, or

 5    Muslim?  Which ethnicity?

 6       A.   Of Serb ethnicity.

 7       Q.   And did they know that your brothers were there?  Would you have

 8    any way of knowing if the neighbours knew your brothers were there?

 9       A.   You mean in my mother-in-law's house?

10       Q.   Yes, I do.

11       A.   Yes, they saw them there.  The house is on the street itself.

12       Q.   Did they know that they had been brought from Omarska camp to stay

13    there?  Do you know that?  Did you talk about this or did they talk about

14    this with any neighbours?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   What was their reaction, the neighbours?

17       A.   Knowing me and my brothers, because we would come there often and

18    lived there and stayed there, we spent 20 years coming and going,

19    celebrating birthdays and various other festivities and barbecuing, so all

20    the surrounding families knew my brothers.  And they would join us, and me

21    and my brothers and all the neighbours came and told us to be brave and

22    that it would all pass.

23       Q.   These are the neighbours of your in-laws, of Mr. and Mrs. Kvocka,

24    they told you that?  The Serb neighbours said, "Be brave, everything will

25    pass"?

Page 7978

 1       A.   Yes, yes.

 2       Q.   Do you drive a car?

 3       A.   No.

 4       Q.   Do you have a family car?  Did you in 1992 have a family car?

 5       A.   No.

 6       Q.   The car that your brothers-in-law came back from Omarska camp with

 7    your husband, that car, what car was it?

 8       A.   Yes.

 9       Q.   What kind of car was it?

10       A.   I don't know the brand.  It was a car that had been requisitioned

11    and that was given to my husband to use.

12       Q.   But by whom, given by whom to use?  Who gave it to your husband,

13    Mrs. Kvocka?

14       A.   Probably somebody from the SUP, I don't know.  Or the army,

15    whoever who was doing the mobilisation.  One has to know how it all went,

16    and I don't know these things.

17       Q.   Mrs. Kvocka, do you know if any other police officers whom your

18    husband worked with also got requisitioned cars?  Would you know that?

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   Yes what?  Yes, you know that they got them, that other people got

21    requisitioned cars?  Is that what you're saying yes to?

22       A.   Yes.  Others got these requisitioned cars also to use them.

23       Q.   Who got them?  Could you name some of the other police officers

24    who got those requisitioned cars?  Please tell us.

25       A.   I don't know.  I know that in the Omarska police station there was

Page 7979

 1    just one car.  It may have been a Niva, a rather big car.  And then these

 2    passengers cars were probably given to them so that they could come and go

 3    or go to Prijedor or whatever they had to do.

 4       Q.   Now, this car was not a Niva, was it?  This was a nicer car,

 5    wasn't it, the one your husband had?

 6       A.   Yes.  The one my husband drove, yes.

 7       Q.   What kind of car was it?

 8       A.   I really don't know.  I don't know much about cars, and I don't

 9    drive.

10       Q.   Did you ever ride in it?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   How many times?

13       A.   A couple of times.  We went to Prijedor in it to pick up those

14    parcels, to visit my mother.  We used that car to do it.

15       Q.   Do you remember when he got that car?  Do you remember?

16       A.   When all of that started.

17       Q.   "All of that."  What event are you tying it to, because there was

18    a lot of "that."  What are we talking about?  What event can you remember

19    or tie the getting the car to?

20       A.   Probably when that down there was formed, when those people were

21    brought there, so he had more to do.  He had to go to the police station

22    and down there.

23       Q.   When you say "that" was formed, are you talking about the Omarska

24    camp?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 7980

 1            MS. SOMERS:  If I may ask for just a moment, please.

 2       Q.   Mrs. Kvocka, your brothers, were they concerned for your

 3    well-being in remaining behind in the former Yugoslavia, in Prijedor

 4    specifically?  Were they worried about you after all this?

 5       A.   When they left?

 6       Q.   Were they worried about you remaining?

 7       A.   Or you mean while they were still in Prijedor?  Yes, yes, they

 8    were worried.

 9       Q.   You had a -- let me think, Dragojica [sic], was it a sister of

10    Mr. Kvocka, was it your husband's sister who was married to a Muslim?

11       A.   Dragojla, yes.

12       Q.   And how long was she married to this man?  Do you remember his

13    name, by any chance?

14       A.   For four or five years they lived as a married couple.

15       Q.   And do they have any children?

16       A.   Yes, a daughter called Indira.

17       Q.   Is she still in the Prijedor area?

18       A.   No.  He's from Sarajevo.

19       Q.   But she, the sister, Dragojla.

20       A.   She is, yes.

21       Q.   You think that her husband is in Sarajevo.  Were they -- did the

22    marriage continue?  Did they stay married?

23       A.   No, they divorced.

24       Q.   When?

25       A.   After four years of marriage.

Page 7981

 1       Q.   When would that be?  Could you give us perhaps -- if you can think

 2    back to the year, was it 1991, 1992, what year?

 3       A.   His daughter is -- celebrated her 18th birthday on the 30th of

 4    this month, so ...

 5       Q.   When was the last time you saw this man?  Do you know his name?

 6    Can you give us the name of this former husband of Dragojla, please?

 7       A.   Mango.

 8       Q.   Is that his real name?

 9       A.   It is his nickname.  Can my husband help me?  Probably not.

10    Hamdo.

11       Q.   Do you remember his last name?

12       A.   It's a well-known surname in Sarajevo:  Mangafic.

13       Q.   When was the last time you saw him?

14       A.   A couple of years prior to the war when he came to visit his

15    daughter.

16       Q.   Did they talk about him much in the family any more?  Does his

17    name ever come up?  Does Dragojla ever mention him?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   Does she know where he is?

20       A.   I think she does.

21       Q.   Where do you think he is?

22       A.   I don't know.

23       Q.   Did she ever tell you that he is dead?

24       A.   He's not registered as dead or missing yet.  Nothing is yet

25    known.  Dragojla is in touch with his parents, but they still haven't

Page 7982













13   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the English

14   and French transcripts.












Page 7983

 1    established anything.

 2       Q.   So your in-laws do not discuss the fact that he was found in a

 3    mass grave in the Prijedor area?  This is not something that's discussed

 4    at home at all, that his body was found?

 5            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour.  I would

 6    really like to ask my learned friend to offer any proof at all that this

 7    body has been found in Prijedor, because Mrs. Kvocka said that the former

 8    brother-in-law left Prijedor almost 15 years ago.

 9       A.   He used to work in Visegrad.

10            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers.

11            MS. SOMERS:  I did make a mistake.  It was in Foca, the grave, but

12    there has been no -- I think that it is a fair question to ask a family

13    member.  It's a close family.

14            JUDGE RODRIGUES:  But it would be fairer if you asked, "Do you

15    know if he was found?"

16            MS. SOMERS:  Okay.  Thank you very much, Your Honour.  I would be

17    very happy to do that.

18            JUDGE RODRIGUES:  The problem is that, yes, we are complaining.

19    But I think we've reached the time to have a break.  So a 50-minute

20    break.

21            MS. SOMERS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

22            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Fifty-minute break.

23                          --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.05 p.m.



Page 7984

 1                          --- On resuming at 1.58 p.m.

 2            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.

 3            Ms. Susan Somers, please proceed.  According to my calculations,

 4    you have 20, 25 minutes more.

 5            MS. SOMERS:

 6       Q.   Mrs. Kvocka, did you consider yourself a person involved in

 7    politics?

 8       A.   No.

 9       Q.   Was your husband a person who was involved in politics?

10       A.   No.

11       Q.   After the war finished and the camps were closed, which of course

12    was before the war finished, but the closing of Omarska, did you

13    personally, as a Muslim woman who remained in Prijedor, feel any sense of

14    guilt about what happened to your fellow Muslims?

15       A.   I was left without my brothers and without my family, without my

16    friends, and then finally without my husband.

17       Q.   And of those events, which one made you feel the saddest?

18       A.   That's a difficult question to answer.

19       Q.   Can you try to give us a little bit of insight into your

20    feelings?  Did you miss your husband more than your brothers, your

21    brothers more than your friends?  Are you able to talk about that a little

22    bit?

23       A.   I miss them all equally.

24       Q.   Did any of your fellow Muslims change their attitudes -- I'll

25    repeat that.  I'm sorry.

Page 7985

 1            Did any of your fellow Muslims, either friends, relatives,

 2    neighbours, former neighbours, change their attitude toward you after they

 3    learned about what happened at Omarska camp?

 4       A.   Every person has his own opinion of that.

 5       Q.   Yes, but did you feel any sense of accusation toward you because

 6    of the fact that your husband worked at a camp and that the facts about

 7    that camp finally came to light?  How did it affect you?

 8       A.   The very fact that my husband and that you could see on television

 9    that he was on the list of war criminals, and, you know, it was very

10    difficult for anyone to understand about him being a war criminal.  It was

11    difficult for me, for my family, for my children.  And when we heard this

12    over the radio, my father-in-law, for example, died of a heart attack

13    because he wasn't able to understand how that could be, how it could have

14    happened that way.

15       Q.   During the time that you were staying with your father-in-law, did

16    your husband ever tell your father-in-law what was going on at Omarska

17    camp?  Did you ever hear him talk about that to his father?

18       A.   No, we didn't talk about that.

19       Q.   Did your husband talk to the father about that?  Not you but your

20    husband.

21       A.   No.  It was so near to the village that the whole village knew

22    what was going on there.

23       Q.   Did you circulate around the village while you were staying with

24    your in-laws, and if you did, what were people saying about what was going

25    on at Omarska camp?  What was the word on the street?

Page 7986

 1       A.   I went around Omarska when I went to the shops, to the butchers,

 2    'cause there were a lot of us at home and we needed a lot of food.  But

 3    my friends would always say, "It will all pass, it will blow over.  Now

 4    this is a chaotic situation, but it will blow over."  Those were the

 5    comments, more or less.

 6       Q.   Your husband was an official of the Serb government, a police

 7    official of the Serb government.  How did you as a wife, a Muslim wife of

 8    a Serb official of a Serb government feel in terms of your position in

 9    that society?

10       A.   Everybody respected my husband in the village that he worked in

11    because he was born there.  Everybody respected him.

12       Q.   That was Omarska, correct?

13       A.   Yes, in Omarska, yes.

14       Q.   Let's talk about Prijedor where you lived.  What was the attitude

15    of people in Prijedor toward you?

16       A.   Super.  And there's still some Muslims in my house to this day.  I

17    help them; I am assisting them.  And they encourage me; they stood by me.

18    And many of them couldn't understand it.  Some people even apologised to

19    my husband for having seen it on television.  They said it wasn't possible

20    and that he shouldn't be there.  He shouldn't be on that list.

21            I am still there with the Muslims.  They come to me; I go to visit

22    them.  We help each other, and we socialise.  We're friends.

23       Q.   How did you actually learn about the fact that your husband was

24    indicted by this Tribunal?  Can you give us the specifics?

25       A.   On television.  It was a shock.

Page 7987

 1       Q.   Was your husband working as a police officer at the time that you

 2    and he -- or that you learned, sorry?  Was he working as a police officer

 3    at the time you learned about the indictment?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   And where was he working as a police officer?

 6       A.   I've already said, at the police station in Prijedor.

 7       Q.   How long did he continue to work as a police officer after the

 8    indictment?

 9       A.   For a time he worked, and then he didn't work for three years.

10       Q.   Can you give us the time -- let's say from 1995, the time of the

11    indictment, what did he do from February 1995 to February 1996?

12       A.   That was the period when he did not go to work to SUP?  I'm

13    asking, actually.  Is that the period when he wasn't working at the SUP?

14       Q.   He's your husband, you'll have to tell us.  What was he doing

15    between 1995, let's say February, and the end -- up to January of 1996?

16    What was he doing?  Were you living together?  Were you living together?

17       A.   Well, of course.  We're still together, regardless of the fact

18    that he's here.  I think that was the period.  It was the period when he

19    stopped working.  We had nothing to live on.  I was not working.  I didn't

20    work throughout the war.  Then I bought a cow.  My mother-in-law gave me

21    two pigs, and that's what we did then.  He looked after the cow.  He would

22    cut the grass.  He would sell the milk from the cow to -- so that we could

23    survive, feed our children.  We had to pay for their schools, feed them,

24    clothe them.  That's what he did.

25       Q.   So that was 1995 to the end, but he was a member of the police

Page 7988

 1    department, you told us - I want to make sure I understand this - in 1993

 2    and 1994, correct?

 3       A.   Well, in 1994.

 4       Q.   Why did he leave the department, as you said he did, in that 1995

 5    up to 1996 period?  What happened?

 6       A.   On television, that was televised, and then the international

 7    police prevented him from going to work.

 8       Q.   And when was that, if you remember?  You should exactly.

 9       A.   I don't know.  After everything that I have gone through, lived

10    through, it's difficult to remember a date.  Perhaps it's all on paper,

11    because all the papers were collected up, so the dates are well known from

12    when to when something happened.  Everything has been recorded.  Perhaps

13    it's easier to read this from the documents rather than asking me to

14    remember.  After everything that I have lived through and experienced,

15    it's difficult for me to remember a particular date.

16       Q.   You said papers were collected up.  Which papers are you talking

17    about?

18       A.   Well, the evidence with Chris Bennett.  He said he had everything,

19    that he had the papers, all the papers, everything about his work, what he

20    did.

21       Q.   Did you ever see in your house any police papers being stored, any

22    reports, any orders, any documents?  Did you have any documents stored in

23    your house?

24       A.   No.

25       Q.   Did your husband, after he was indicted, after you found out about

Page 7989

 1    the indictment, return to work in the police department?

 2       A.   Well, that's perhaps the period that we misunderstood each other,

 3    in fact.  When it was announced on television about the indictment, after

 4    a certain period of time, he didn't go to the police station to work.

 5       Q.   And what preceded his stopping going to the police station?  How

 6    much after you heard about the indictment did he stop going?

 7            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection.

 8       A.   Well, I don't know.  I have no idea.

 9            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic.

10            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] The witness gave a precise answer

11    to my learned colleague, that was to say that her husband stopped after

12    the IPTF had told him not to go to work following the indictment announced

13    on television, and she has answered that question several times already.

14            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Simic, but the witness

15    herself admitted that there was perhaps a misunderstanding.  I think there

16    might have been a misunderstanding, but it's up to Ms. Susan Somers to

17    clear that up, to try to get things clear.

18            Ms. Susan Somers, when you're talking about the date of the

19    indictment, the witness herself thinks that it was the time that she

20    learnt that her husband was arrested.  So could you try and clarify

21    matters, please, Ms. Susan Somers.  Please proceed.

22            MS. SOMERS:  I'm going to try, because so far the questions I've

23    asked on dates have been evaded.

24       Q.   Let us focus on what the date was when you heard on television

25    that your husband was indicted by this Tribunal.  What was the date?  Give

Page 7990

 1    a month and a year.

 2       A.   You tell me when the indictment was raised.

 3       Q.   When did you hear on television, when did you hear the broadcast

 4    on television about the indictment?  When did you hear the broadcast?

 5       A.   Madam, I have so many problems to contend with and all the things

 6    that I experience, sometimes I can't even remember my own date of birth

 7    let alone some other date there.  It was a boom, it was a shock for me,

 8    and I had to calm my children down.  My 14-year-old son just wasn't able

 9    to comprehend, to understand, who said, "Whose father is a war criminal?"

10    He just couldn't understand that.

11            Madam, perhaps we could have met like Chris Bennett and I did and

12    then we could have discussed this subject, but I just can't remember the

13    date.

14       Q.   Had your husband had a birthday very close in time to when the

15    announcement about the indictment came?  When is your husband's birthday?

16       A.   The 1st of January, 1957.

17       Q.   How much after a birthday, if we can try to maybe help you

18    remember that way, did you find out your husband -- did you hear the

19    television broadcast?  Can you pin it to a birthday, perhaps?

20       A.   Well, really, I ...

21       Q.   Okay.  If you can't remember, you can't remember.

22       A.   I would like to be able to.

23       Q.   When he heard -- was he listening to the broadcast at the same

24    time you were?

25       A.   No.  He wasn't at home.  We told him about it when he came.  But

Page 7991

 1    it was the number one news item and it was repeated.

 2       Q.   So he came home from where?  Where was he when he came home to

 3    find out he had been indicted?

 4       A.   I think him and Hasan were at a cafe somewhere round by our house.

 5       Q.   Hasan whom?

 6       A.   Oklopcic, our kum.

 7       Q.   What did he tell you when you told him that he was indicted?

 8       A.   What could he say?

 9       Q.   I don't know.  What did he say?

10       A.   He was left speechless.  He was left completely speechless.  He

11    said, "What indictment?  What do you mean?  What are you talking about?"

12    He was absolutely astounded.

13       Q.   The time between the indictment, which was 1995, and the time your

14    husband came into the custody before this Tribunal was roughly a

15    three-year period.  During that three-year period, what did your husband

16    do for a living, after he was indicted, before he was arrested?

17       A.   He sold milk from the cow that we had.  He fed the pigs, and if

18    the pig were to have 12 piglets, then we would give two to the refugees,

19    we'd give several of the piglets to our relations and even the Muslims who

20    had to eat that pork in order to survive.  So we'd give some to them.

21       Q.   Mrs. Kvocka, did he work as a policeman during that period of

22    time, in Prijedor or anywhere else in --

23       A.   No.  No.  No.  He did physical work.  He would dig maize, drive a

24    tractor, do anything, any odd jobs of that kind in order to get some money

25    to feed the children with.

Page 7992

 1       Q.   Did you encourage him to come to The Hague?  Did you encourage him

 2    to turn himself in?

 3       A.   I was against that, although he was not in hiding.  He did not

 4    hide.  When the international police force would go by, we would wave to

 5    them.  If we were roasting a lamb, we would invite them to come and have a

 6    bite to eat and some drink.  But he helped my people so much and he helped

 7    my brothers so much.  There were so many people that went past our house,

 8    so many Muslims went through our house that nobody asked, and now suddenly

 9    he has been characterised as that.

10            It is difficult for me as a Muslim woman to look my husband in the

11    eyes because I know what he went through and what he did for my own

12    people.

13       Q.   He helped your three brothers?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   He took some packages to several persons in the camp?

16       A.   He took many packages, many.

17       Q.   To persons in the camp where he was working?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   And what about the assistance to the other thousands of Muslims?

20    Can you comment on that?  Is perhaps helping a handful of Muslims --

21            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection.

22       A.   Yes, he can --

23            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic.

24            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Mrs. Kvocka is

25    speaking about the contributions that she and her husband made in those

Page 7993

 1    difficult times, and I am sure that we don't even have the proper insight

 2    as to how terrible those times were.  It is not up to her to comment about

 3    the thousands of people who really and truly were exposed to suffering,

 4    but that is not the subject of her testimony.  She is here to testify on

 5    what she and her husband did.

 6       A.   But I would like to answer that question.  My husband had a small

 7    car.  Many people asked for assistance, and I had to reject some of them.

 8    I was not able to take everything in.  But he couldn't -- they couldn't

 9    believe that he was no longer working up there, that he had been sent away

10    and that he couldn't distribute the packages any more.  And there were

11    many, many people up there, and they had their own connections.  Somebody

12    would always take something to somebody.  And when my husband was sent

13    away from there -- I asked Slavica Lakic to take packages to my brother,

14    for example, so this channel was always open, this channel of

15    communication.  Sometimes I would skip my brothers and send some aid and

16    assistance to others.

17            I am very sorry that the working hours are as they are.  I could

18    go on telling you about things of this kind for days and days.  Everything

19    that we experience, that me and my husband experienced, and I stand by him

20    and stand behind everything he says because I went through all this

21    together with him.

22            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, Mrs. Kvocka.

23            Ms. Susan Somers, you have your answer.  Please move on and pay

24    attention to the time, please.

25            MS. SOMERS:  Could the Chamber tell me, am I down to a minute or

Page 7994

 1    two?  I'm happy to stop there.  If I have a minute left, I'm happy to ask

 2    one more question.

 3            JUDGE RODRIGUES:  You have one minute.

 4            MS. SOMERS:  Actually, I'll stop.  Thank you very much.  Thank

 5    you.

 6            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You have finished?

 7            MS. SOMERS:  Yes.

 8            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, then.  Thank you.

 9            Mr. Simic.

10            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

11            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Oh, I apologise for having

12    forgotten to ask other Defence counsel if they have any questions for the

13    witness, but they don't seem to have any questions for her.

14            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] No.  They would have probably

15    objected, Your Honour.

16            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please proceed, Mr. Simic.

17                          Re-examined by Mr. K. Simic:

18       Q.   Mrs. Kvocka, a moment ago, you told us that the daughter of

19    Mrs. Dragojla, the sister of your husband, recently celebrated her 18th

20    birthday.  How old was she when her parents divorced?

21       A.   She was 4 years old.

22       Q.   Mrs. Kvocka, you also said that the daughter of Mrs. Dragojla is

23    called Indira; is that correct?  Is that her name?

24       A.   Yes, it is.

25       Q.   To what ethnic group does that name belong, the name Indira?  Is

Page 7995

 1    it a Croat, a Muslim, or a Serb name?

 2       A.   I think it is a Muslim name because her father was a Muslim.

 3       Q.   You spoke about the absence of your husband for about two or three

 4    days during the month of June in 1992.  You spoke about that to

 5    Ms. Somers, and she asked you about what he was doing during that period

 6    of time.  Did he bring anything to anyone at that time?

 7       A.   I think that Zeljko told him something about some money that was

 8    supposed to be sent to a woman whose husband had been killed.  They had to

 9    finish some job to that effect.

10       Q.   On several occasions you told us that you didn't discuss business,

11    you didn't discuss work with your husband.  In the house of his parents,

12    did he keep any official records which would have belonged to the police,

13    any official documentation?

14       A.   No, he didn't.

15            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  I have no

16    further questions for the witness.

17            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Simic.

18    Judge Fouad Riad has the floor.

19            JUDGE RIAD:  [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

20                          Questioned by the Court:

21            JUDGE RIAD:  Mrs. Kvocka, good afternoon.  Can you hear me?

22       A.   Yes, I can.

23            JUDGE RIAD:  I just have a few questions which you might be in a

24    position to enlighten me about.  First, about your brothers, we have got

25    three of them, Adnan, Rizah, and Nedzad.  Were the three of them arrested?

Page 7996

 1       A.   Yes.

 2            JUDGE RIAD:  Good.  What was exactly the accusation?  Of what were

 3    they accused, to your knowledge?

 4       A.   They were not arrested.  That morning they were taken from their

 5    houses at 3.30, and in a nearby hotel they were separated from women and

 6    children, put on buses, and then taken to Omarska.

 7            JUDGE RIAD:  Yes, I believe I know the process, and then they went

 8    and came back and taken again.  Let's see, Adnan, for instance, stood

 9    guard during the attack on Prijedor.  Was that an accusation?

10       A.   No, no, that is not correct.  May I briefly explain this to you?

11    Even before the attack on Prijedor, all of the local communes were places

12    where people gathered and where they would stand guard.  They were not

13    armed.  People simply spent some time there and stayed there in the

14    buildings of the local communes for a while, but because I wasn't there, I

15    cannot tell you exactly how it went.

16            JUDGE RIAD:  How old were your brothers when they were arrested?

17       A.   They're all younger than me.

18            JUDGE RIAD:  Yes, I --

19       A.   But they were all married, all three of them.

20            JUDGE RIAD:  They were all married.  And was it a general attitude

21    to arrest anybody, or they picked up certain people for certain

22    accusations?

23       A.   No.  Everybody was picked up that day, all of the population.

24    This is what I heard over the radio.

25            JUDGE RIAD:  They were picked up, they came back home, and then

Page 7997

 1    they were taken again.  How long did they stay in the camp?

 2       A.   Two or three weeks, I believe.

 3            JUDGE RIAD:  And how were they when they went out?  How did you

 4    find them?  Did you see them?

 5       A.   When they got out, you mean when they arrived in Trnopolje?

 6            JUDGE RIAD:  When you saw them after the camp.

 7       A.   My brother came out of the camp in a better shape than he was in

 8    the other day when he came back from the States.

 9            JUDGE RIAD:  Your brother.  There are three of them.

10       A.   Yes, they were all well.

11            JUDGE RIAD:  They were all well.

12       A.   But this one who came the other day ...

13            JUDGE RIAD:  Now, you said that rumours spread about Mr. Kvocka

14    taking parcels to the Muslim detainees, and it was on a wide scale you

15    found many parcels.  What was -- was there any reaction from the

16    population, from the Serb population against you, against him?

17       A.   There were some rumours.  We were not disliked in the village.

18            JUDGE RIAD:  Yes, but --

19       A.   We were set apart.

20            JUDGE RIAD:  You were set apart.  But no threats?  You were not

21    threatened?  You felt safe?

22       A.   Yes, we were on a couple of occasions.  Why we were treating them

23    nicely, that we should not be treating them that way, that -- things like

24    that, why we were doing that for them.

25            JUDGE RIAD:  But no danger, you were in no danger?

Page 7998

 1       A.   One could perhaps say that we were in danger only if something

 2    would happen out there at the front line.  If young men were killed in

 3    war, then people would feel some kind of resentment, but in Omarska

 4    itself, we felt free.  We lived our normal lives there.

 5            JUDGE RIAD:  Now, you -- concerning Mr. Kvocka going to meet the

 6    Drljaca and Drljaca refused to meet him and he was sent back home to wait,

 7    did you know -- did Mr. Kvocka or did you find out why they sent him back

 8    home to wait?  It's a sign of disapproval?

 9       A.   Yes.  He returned it, and he said, "Wait a couple of days, I'll

10    see what I'm going to do with you."  He shouted at him, and at that point

11    he told me, "Take off your pants to see if -- let us see if you're

12    circumcised."

13            JUDGE RIAD:  But he went back to work --

14       A.   "Whether you've become a Muslim or not."

15            JUDGE RIAD:  But when he went back to work, everything went on all

16    right?

17       A.   Yes, but where?  You mean to Tukovi?

18            JUDGE RIAD:  Yes.  To Tukovi and in town and everywhere.

19       A.   To the reserve station.

20            JUDGE RIAD:  What do you mean by that?  Does that mean that he was

21    put aside?

22       A.   I think that they humiliated him.

23            JUDGE RIAD:  Did he tell you anything about that, or he never

24    spoke, you said, about what was happening?

25       A.   Very rarely would he tell me about what was happening.

Page 7999

 1            JUDGE RIAD:  But you say that he was more or less discarded and

 2    looked down upon; is that what I understood?

 3       A.   Yes.  He had worked in the Omarska police station, and it was

 4    strange that he should have gone to another smaller police station which

 5    consisted of only several people and reserve police officers and two

 6    retired members of the staff, so he was supposed to be only an assistant

 7    there.  They wanted to put him away so that nobody had to look at him in

 8    the central SUP building.  They wanted to remove him.

 9            JUDGE RIAD:  But as a policeman, do they have any grades?  Was he

10    degraded or anything?

11       A.   Of course, since he was only an assistant there.

12            JUDGE RIAD:  I understood that you gave hospitality to two

13    families, the Mevludin Zelenkic and his son, and the Stojan Stojsavljevic;

14    is that right?  Both came to your home.  What was your relationship with

15    each of these families?  Were they good friends or were they just -- in

16    one case you mentioned that Mr. Kvocka called you from his police and told

17    you, "I have got some people to bring home, the Serb family."  Did you

18    know them?  Did you know them, or were they just -- he brought them

19    unknowing?

20       A.   No, no.

21            JUDGE RIAD:  Yes.

22       A.   He didn't bring them there.  He simply sent them to me, to my

23    address.  I didn't know them at all.  And that was our first encounter,

24    that is when I first met them.

25            JUDGE RIAD:  And he did not know them either?  It was out --

Page 8000

 1       A.   No.

 2            JUDGE RIAD:  Out of great kindness, nothing else.  What about

 3    Mevludin Zelenkic?

 4       A.   That's the kind of man he is.  We didn't know Mevludin either,

 5    from before, I mean.  But we met on one of the occasions during that

 6    period of time because he was also doing some field work, farm work, and

 7    he also had a cow.  So because of the similar circumstances, we happened

 8    to meet and to know each other.  But there were other families as well.

 9            JUDGE RIAD:  Yes, both Serb and Muslims?

10       A.   Yes.  But there were many Serb and many Muslim families that

11    passed through my house.  It was like miniature International Red Cross in

12    Prijedor until the real International Red Cross arrived and established

13    itself in Prijedor.

14            JUDGE RIAD:  With regard to the interview that he had with this

15    Mr. Bennett, if I understood rightly, you said that Muslims -- that you

16    did not know that Muslims and Croats were maltreated at the camp at

17    Omarska, and you said that your husband spared you the trouble to know

18    about that, if I understood rightly.  But you moved into town.  Nobody in

19    town told you about what was happening at Omarska?  Nobody raised it and

20    mentioned that to you?

21       A.   Throughout that period of time, I was stopped only once on a

22    checkpoint when I went to my parents' house, and that was the only time

23    they wanted me to show my ID.  At that time, there were not many Muslims

24    and Serbs who were willing to have mutual contact, and people didn't talk

25    to one another very often.

Page 8001

 1            JUDGE RIAD:  So in moving in town, were you, were you, let's say,

 2    friendly both with Muslims and Serbs, or some of them would be more or

 3    less hostile to you?

 4       A.  I am still friendly both with Muslims and Serbs.  I still have a

 5    Muslim living in my house.  He has no place to live, and he's living there

 6    with my brother.  And there are many people returning to Prijedor these

 7    days, and with many of them I have had a cup of coffee, a drink, we

 8    talked.  And there is also a Serb woman living in the same house, a

 9    homeless person who has no other place to live.

10            JUDGE RIAD:  Last question:  Apparently you said that, if I

11    understood, (redacted)

12    (redacted) that Mr. Kvocka didn't like it.

13       A.   Yes.

14            JUDGE RIAD:  Was that because of any ethnic or the religious

15    difference between them, or ethnic difference?  Why didn't he like it?

16       A.   Your Honour, my husband couldn't be a nationalist.  He has been

17    living for 20 years with a Muslim.  His daughter has a Muslim name.  The

18    only thing that bothered us was the fact that we thought that there would

19    be a divorce and that a child would be left without parents because he had

20    a child with that woman.  We didn't think it was a nice thing to do and

21    that was all.

22            JUDGE RIAD:  Thank you very much.

23            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

24    Judge Riad.

25            Madam Judge Wald has the floor.

Page 8002

 1            JUDGE WALD:  Mrs. Kvocka, I have only four very brief questions to

 2    ask you.  One, did your husband ever discuss with you, either at the time

 3    that he was working in the camp or afterwards, what the conditions were

 4    like in the camp?

 5       A.   At times we would mention these things, but I could read it on his

 6    face.  He found it very difficult.  He had friends there, he had

 7    neighbours, his colleagues from work, and it was very hard for him.  And

 8    if only they had sent him away earlier on, I would have been grateful that

 9    he didn't have to do all that.

10            JUDGE WALD:  When you say he found it very difficult because of

11    his colleagues and friends, is it your impression that that was because

12    they were arrested at all or because they had to live in very poor

13    conditions in the camp?

14       A.   Both, I would say.

15            JUDGE WALD:  Okay.  How about your brothers?  Did they ever --

16    they were in the camp for a few weeks on the second time when they went

17    back again after your husband had left the camp.  Did they ever discuss

18    what conditions were like in the camp, just in a very general way?

19       A.   Me?

20            JUDGE WALD:  No.  Did they discuss with you or did you hear them

21    discuss with anyone else what the conditions were like while they were in

22    the camp, while your brothers were there?

23       A.   All the people in the neighbourhood, most of them had been there,

24    and normally when they came back, it was only normal that they talk about

25    it.

Page 8003

 1            JUDGE WALD:  Well, what, for instance, did your brothers say about

 2    living in the camp, just in a general way?

 3       A.   My brothers didn't see much where they were held.

 4            JUDGE WALD:  What about the living conditions they were held in?

 5    Did they complain or was it just so-so?

 6       A.   Probably it was somewhat better than for others because they were

 7    in a closed area in the "glass house."

 8            JUDGE WALD:  How long would you estimate, would you guess or

 9    estimate if you don't know, was your husband working at Omarska, just in

10    terms of the number of weeks?

11       A.   Two or three weeks.

12            JUDGE WALD:  Okay.  And my last question is:  What was your

13    impression during the couple of weeks that he was there as to what his job

14    was?  What did you think his job was while he was in the camp?

15       A.   As he often came home and went to the police station in Omarska

16    and went there, what could have been his task?

17            JUDGE WALD:  Well, I'm asking you what you thought was his task

18    just during those few weeks when he was in Omarska, in the camp.  What did

19    you think his job was?

20       A.   To do the same work he had done in his own police station.

21            JUDGE WALD:  But I'm sure you knew it was a lot different to work

22    in a police station in a small town than to do something in this camp with

23    thousands of people.  So what did you think he was -- his duties were, in

24    a very general way?  He couldn't -- I mean, he patrolled.  He was in

25    charge of a patrol in Omarska town.  He was a patrol sector leader, we're

Page 8004













13   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the English

14   and French transcripts.












Page 8005

 1    told.  So what did you think he did in the camp?

 2       A.   I don't know.  What would a policeman do in a camp?

 3            JUDGE WALD:  Can you answer that for me?  What do you think a

 4    policeman would do in a camp?

 5       A.   I suppose the same work he does in his station.

 6            JUDGE WALD:  Okay.  Thank you.

 7            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Judge Wald.

 8            Mrs. Kvocka, if I understood you well, your brothers returned to

 9    Omarska on the 20th of June, and I think you said it was a Wednesday.  Did

10    I understand you right?

11       A.   A Tuesday or Wednesday.  I don't know.

12            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Tuesday or Wednesday.  I see.

13    Was that the 20th or was it the 19th?

14       A.   A day or two after the 20th.  Around the 20th, after the 20th.

15            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] [No translation]

16       A.   I'm sorry.  Why do you mean why?

17            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] [No translation]

18            You're not hearing me, Mrs. Kvocka?  Do you hear me?

19            Why did you say the 20th or after the 20th?  My question was --

20    because you said that your brothers went around the 20th or, rather, after

21    the 20th.  So my question is:  How do you know it was the 20th or after

22    the 20th?  Why didn't you say on the 1st of the month or the last day of

23    the month?

24       A.   I think it was Tuesday.  And if you see your three brothers get

25    into a car and you see their backs and you don't know whether you would

Page 8006

 1    ever see them again in your life, a sister remembers that.

 2            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.  I understand that very

 3    well, Mrs. Kvocka, and I accept that after so much time it is difficult to

 4    give a precise date.  Ms. Susan Somers asked you a whole series of precise

 5    dates.  Your answer was always that it was difficult to remember, and I

 6    accept that, but now I'm asking you how come that you're telling us it was

 7    the 20th or after the 20th regarding this particular event?  You didn't

 8    say, "I can't remember.  I don't know.  It was a long time ago."  You

 9    said, "More or less around the 20th."

10       A.   You see why I remember.  My husband and I would often go to

11    Prijedor, and my mother would say, "When are you going to bring them

12    over?  Can't you see it's the 15th, it is the 20th, and you still haven't

13    brought them over," and that is why I think it was a day or two after the

14    20th that we went down there.  Then we needed to go to Prijedor and tell

15    my mother that they wouldn't be coming home but that they had to go back

16    down there.

17            That is how I remember, by her reaction.  She cried daily.  So did

18    my sister-in-law.  You can imagine when a mother is waiting to see her

19    three sons.  And I keep lying to her, telling her I'll bring them

20    tomorrow, the day after, and I don't do it.  Then the day comes when I

21    have to tell her that they have gone back over there.  So you see, it was

22    all very hard.

23            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.  I'm going to ask you

24    something you can answer if you wish or not.  When you told your mother or

25    your mother-in-law, "I'm going to bring them back," was that a way of

Page 8007

 1    consoling them or did you really feel that you would be able to bring them

 2    back?

 3       A.   It wasn't a way of consoling her because I had to tell her the

 4    truth; they were taken back.  So I came to Prijedor with my husband, and I

 5    had to tell my mother there was no way I could bring them over, that they

 6    had to go back there, that Miro was no longer going up there.

 7            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.  Thank you,

 8    Mrs. Kvocka, we have no further questions for you.  We wish to thank you

 9    very much for having come.

10            I'm going to ask the usher to accompany you out.  Thank you.

11            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I say something?  May I be

12    allowed to say something?

13            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You have a question for me

14    personally?

15            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.  I just wish to thank you

16    the correct way I was treated, and goodbye.  That's all I wanted to say.

17            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

18                          [The witness withdrew]

19            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Ms. Susan Somers.

20            MS. SOMERS:  Your Honours, at this time, the Prosecution would

21    respectfully offer into evidence Exhibits 3/201 and 3/202, which were

22    tendered earlier.

23            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers, I think

24    Judge Wald doesn't feel well, so we'll adjourn now and resume tomorrow.

25    She gave me a sign, but I gave you the floor, and I apologise.

Page 8008

 1            So we'll deal with that tomorrow at 9.20.

 2            MS. SOMERS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at, 2.53 p.m.,

 4                          to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 13th day of

 5                          February, 2001, at 9.20 a.m.