1 Monday, 12th March 2001
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.25 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning. Please be
7 Good morning, ladies and gentlemen; good morning to the technical
8 booth and the interpreters; good morning to the Prosecution and the
9 Defence counsels. We're going to resume our work where we left off, and I
10 think we have Mr. Fila.
11 Mr. Fila, please proceed.
12 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, according to our agenda,
13 we were to have the psychiatrist first, I believe, who said he would be
14 coming at 9.00 this morning. But as he doesn't seem to be here, with the
15 Court's indulgence, I should like to begin with the next witness. And the
16 pseudonym for this witness is DC7, and that is the last witness that we
17 will have before this Tribunal with a pseudonym. So may we have Witness
18 DC7 escorted into the courtroom, please.
19 [The witness entered court]
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness DC7. Can
21 you hear me?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I am talking to you. I am here
24 in front of you. You will now be reading the solemn declaration handed to
25 you by the usher, please.
1 WITNESS: WITNESS DC7
2 [Witness answered through interpreter]
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
4 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated. Thank you
6 very much for having come, DC7. You will now be answering questions put
7 to you by Mr. Fila, who is the gentleman standing up on your left. Before
8 we commence, please take a look at this piece of paper and tell us whether
9 your name is on the paper. Give us a yes or no answer, please.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. Very well. Mr. Fila,
12 your witness.
13 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] First of all, may we move into private
14 session for a few moments to hear this witness's particulars.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, let us move into private
16 session, please. You can go ahead now.
17 [Private session]
17 [Open session]
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We're in open session now.
19 Please go ahead.
20 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Before the war, while you lived and worked in Ljubija, did you
22 happen to meet somebody called Mladjo Radic?
23 A. I met Mladjo Radic before the war. He was a policeman. And
24 whenever I needed some law and order put into my premises, I would call
25 Mladjo Radic and the other policemen.
1 Q. What was the national composition of Ljubija?
2 A. The national composition of Ljubija is -- there are three
3 nationalities: the Serbs, Croats, and Muslims.
4 Q. In the conduct of Mladjo Radic, did you notice -- what was Mladjo
5 Radic's conduct towards the members of these three nations? Was there any
6 difference in his behaviour towards them?
7 A. He had a good relationship with everybody. He treated everybody
8 the same; all the ethnic groups he treated the same. His behaviour was
9 always proper and he was nice to everyone.
10 Q. I should now like to focus on the time of your arrest.
11 A. I was at home. I was in my house. And one morning - it was on
12 the 14th of July, in the morning, at around 7.00 -- the police came and
13 surrounded my house, and they arrested me and took me off to the police
14 station, myself and another group of people, of Muslims and Croats
15 together. And we were there for interrogation. We stayed there perhaps
16 an hour to an hour and a half, and immediately after that, they sent us to
17 the Keraterm camp. In the Keraterm camp, we stayed for a couple of hours,
18 perhaps until the afternoon, and in the afternoon we were transferred to
20 When we arrived in Omarska, we got out, they searched us, frisked
21 us, and then took us to the "white house." In the "white house" there was
22 a room where we waited to be interrogated. When we were waiting around
23 there during the afternoon, a guard came to fetch me and one of my
24 colleagues, and he took us off to the offices on the upper storey for
25 questioning. I stayed there for one or two hours while they questioned
1 me, and after this questioning, they took us back, the two of us. We were
2 in two rooms. They took me out and returned me to the "white house." I
3 was slightly unconscious there, and he threw me into the room and that's
4 where I stayed.
5 That night I spent in that room, and in the morning at about 6.00
6 a.m., a soldier came and called out my name. I waited for a little
7 while. I didn't respond straight away, but he started shouting, "What are
8 you waiting for?" and took me off and said that I should go and report
9 down there. I came up to him. He turned me round and led me off some 200
10 metres, down a path. I was unconscious at the time as well. Mladjo met
11 me there and the soldier left.
12 Mladjo took me off a couple of metres. My son was there; he was
13 on a pista. There were more of us there. Those of us who were detained,
14 we were all there, and my son was there too. He told me that I should go
15 off to the young one there, that I would have a better time there.
16 JUDGE RIAD: Just for clarification, the witness said twice he was
17 unconscious. Was it because he was sick or was he badly treated? Just to
18 continue understanding.
19 A. I was not ill. I was a healthy man. But because I had been to
20 the interrogation session, I was mistreated.
21 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you.
22 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Do you know how Mladjo Radic came to learn that you were located
24 in the "white house"?
25 A. I know because my son, a month earlier, had been sent to the camp
1 as well. He was sent to Keraterm and transferred to Omarska. He was
2 there one month before me. So when I arrived, my son saw me on that
3 evening, that afternoon. When they brought me, he saw me in the group of
4 people that were brought there in the evening. And then he must have seen
5 Mladjo who must have been passing there, and he told Mladjo that his
6 father had been brought there to the camp. He said, "See what you can do,
7 please. See if you can get him out of the 'white house' and have him
8 transferred to my group." Mladjo did do that, and he told me that I could
9 go and join my son, that nothing would happen to me, that it would be
10 better for me to be there. That is how I joined my son and was with my
11 son together, right up until we left for Manjaca.
12 Q. Let me ask you something else now, Witness. When your son asked
13 Mladjo Radic to help you, what did Mladjo Radic tell him?
14 A. When my son asked Mladjo Radic to help me and to get me out of the
15 "white house," Mladic said the following: "I'll do whatever I can, but I
16 can't do anything alone. I must contact my superiors first."
17 Q. When you say "Mladic," who are you thinking about?
18 A. Well, Krkan.
19 Q. In your opinion, what was the importance of the fact that you were
20 transferred from the "white house" to the pista? What Mladjo did for you,
21 how do you assess that? Was that important?
22 A. Could you explain that question to me? I don't quite follow you.
23 Q. What is the importance? Where was the improvement?
24 A. Well, the improvement was because the "white house" was renowned
25 that anybody who found himself in the "white house," it was a very
1 difficult -- the prospects for staying alive were very slight, and they
2 could only stay alive if somebody saved them, like they saved me. I'm
3 walking around today - I'm alive - because I was transferred to my son's
4 group. Mladjo Radic transferred me there. And I have come here to say
5 how it all happened.
6 Q. Was your son protected by Mladjo Radic in some way?
7 A. Yes, he was, together with me because we were there together. And
8 afterwards, nobody came to abuse us or to call us out as they did others.
9 Other people were called out in that group, but not us. They were called
10 out, taken off, and some of them didn't return. But we were always there
11 in the same place and nobody ever called us out or abused us in any way.
12 So we were safe there. Our security was better there.
13 Q. Did you talk to the other people from Ljubija about their
14 impressions in connection with Mladjo Radic?
15 A. I can say only one thing: While we were there together, our
16 people from Ljubija were there too and the others were in other rooms as
17 well. We couldn't all fit into that same room because there were several
18 hundred of us there. We had to lie down -- we could just lie down. We
19 couldn't move around anywhere or look anywhere. The other people --
20 Mladjo, whenever he found people from Ljubija -- because he spent some 20
21 years with us in Ljubija, he knew all the Ljubija inhabitants very well,
22 so whenever he found people from Ljubija, he would take them away from the
23 other rooms and bring them to our room because our room was somehow
24 safer. And I heard from these other people, neighbours of mine, and I
25 asked them, "How come you came here?" And they would all say, "Mladjo
1 transferred me to this room and told me to be there."
2 Q. How many people were there from Ljubija roundabout?
3 A. In my opinion, about 100 people from Ljubija and the surrounding
5 Q. When you talked to the people from Ljubija, did they say that he
6 had helped them as well?
7 A. Well, yes. We would be lying down and talking to each other. He
8 helped not only one person but many people. Perhaps 20, 30 people.
9 Q. How would you assess the conduct of Mladjo Radic as a guard in the
10 Omarska camp?
11 A. My opinion is that Mladjo was a good person and he tried to help
12 anybody he could, to try and make the situation better for them. The
13 other people said that he did help. I think that Mladjo was good for
14 others too. For example, he helped me, but he also helped others and
15 saved others, and that is how I am able to say that he was good. I don't
16 think there was any disturbance around him while he was there, while I was
17 in the camp. I wasn't in the camp for a long time, just one month, and
18 then was transferred to Manjaca. But I never heard from anybody that
19 Mladjo was bad towards anybody, nor did I see Mladjo in the compound, that
20 he came like other policemen and soldiers and called people out and sent
21 them off -- and then they were sent off by bus. I never saw Mladjo doing
22 that. I went to the kitchen and I wasn't able to see him there either.
23 Q. When you finally went home to Ljubija after Manjaca, did Mladjo
24 Radic come to Ljubija to visit you or others?
25 A. When I was in Omarska, after Omarska I was transferred to
1 Manjaca. There were 17 buses. We were all transferred and we were taken
2 over by the Red Cross there. We had a good time there. Nobody came; no
3 soldiers, no military people came to us after that.
4 A commission turned up one day, the Red Cross Commission. It took
5 down all our names, registered us, particularly us elderly people -
6 (redacted) - they took down our
7 names and the minors as well. There were children underage, below the age
8 of 18. And some 15 days later, we were transferred to Trnopolje.
9 Q. But I'm interested about when you got home to Ljubija.
10 A. When I got home to Ljubija, I was at home for five months, and
11 Mladjo came at least 15 times, perhaps more, to the house, but he came at
12 night. He wasn't able to enter my house because there were my Orthodox
13 neighbours there. He didn't dare come into contact with me in my house,
14 but I would go outside. And he would ask me, "Are you all right? Is
15 anybody bothering you?" and I would say, "No." I would say that I was
16 secure and safe. Nobody had taken me off anywhere. And I spent five
17 months at home.
18 Q. In talking to the other people from Ljubija who were not Serbs,
19 that is to say, the Croats and Muslims, did you ever hear that anybody
20 said anything bad about Mladjo Radic?
21 A. For all the time I spent at home, nobody told me anything bad
22 about Mladjo Radic. They only told me good things about him.
23 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I have
24 completed my questioning of this witness.
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Fila.
1 Are there any other Defence counsel who wish to question this
2 witness? No? Very well.
3 Mr. Waidyaratne, please.
4 Witness, you are now going to answer questions put to you by the
6 Mr. Waidyaratne, your witness.
7 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Cross-examined by Mr. Waidyaratne:
9 Q. Witness, I will refer to you as DC7. Please bear with me as you
10 have been given some protective measures. Do you hear me?
11 A. I do.
12 Q. Were you arrested on the 14th of July, 1992?
13 A. I was.
14 Q. Who are the people who arrested you? Was it the police?
15 A. It was the police from Ljubija, our police.
16 Q. When you were arrested, did they tell you as to why you were being
18 A. They arrested me and took me to the police station and I was
19 interrogated there for about an hour.
20 Q. They didn't tell you as to why you were arrested; is that correct?
21 A. They said -- they told me that they were arresting me and that I
22 would be taken to the Omarska camp - because allegedly my son had given
23 some assistance to a Muslim organisation - that they would question me and
24 bring me back home. However, I stayed in Omarska.
25 Q. Were you aware whether your son has given assistance to a Muslim
2 A. I didn't know that. My son is of age.
3 Q. Did he tell you at any time, even in the camp, whether he assisted
4 any Muslim organisation?
5 A. He did not.
6 Q. Who are the people -- did you recognise any of the policemen who
7 arrested you?
8 A. Yes, I did recognise those policemen, because they would come to
9 my cafe, as Mladjo would, at times.
10 Q. What are the names, if you know?
11 A. Yes. I knew Savo and Zekan.
12 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... police?
13 A. Yes. Yes. Yes.
14 Q. Now, Witness, when you were taken to the Omarska camp, there were
15 many others who were taken with you; is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Were you searched when you arrived in Omarska?
18 A. Yes, we were. When I set off from Omarska, I asked a policeman in
19 Ljubija to give me half a kilo of bread to put in my pocket, to save it
20 for the camp. Because actually, when we reached Keraterm, where we spent
21 a couple of hours, we were searched immediately, and they didn't leave
22 even that half a kilo of bread on me.
23 Q. Who are the people who searched you at Omarska?
24 A. When we arrived at Omarska, there may have been ten or so of us in
25 a vehicle. We got off, and on the spot, before we went to the "white
1 house," we were searched by them as well and then taken to the "white
2 house." I do not know the people who searched us.
3 Q. Were they guards at the Omarska camp?
4 A. I think they were guards. They were armed. They searched us and
5 then they took us to this building.
6 Q. During the time that you were searched, did they beat you or
7 harass you?
8 A. No, they didn't.
9 Q. Witness, you said that you were taken to the "white house." Who
10 ordered you to go to the "white house"? Who ordered you to go to the
11 "white house"?
12 A. When we were questioned, I wasn't conscious, and the same guard
13 who had brought me for interrogation took me to the "white house."
14 Q. Please bear with me. I think you didn't understand my question.
15 After your arrival, you said that you were taken to the "white house."
16 Who ordered you to go to the "white house"?
17 A. When I arrived, the people who searched us ordered us to go to the
18 "white house." And so they took us there, and after that, we went in for
20 Q. When you were in the "white house," before you were taken for
21 interrogation, you would have seen the people who were in the "white
22 house," the detainees. Did you recognise any of them? Can you name
23 some? Do you remember?
24 A. No, I didn't, no.
25 Q. How did they look? What was the condition of those prisoners?
1 A. They were in a bad state, because they went for interrogation and
2 came back to the "white house," and then occasionally they would be taken
3 back there again, back and forth. So they were in a poor condition, as
4 was I, for that matter.
5 Q. What you meant by "bad condition" and "poor condition," is that
6 that they were physically not in a good condition, physically they were
7 beaten? Did you see bruises, injuries?
8 A. That's what I had in mind when I say that they were in a bad
9 condition, because that was the condition I was in as well.
10 Q. Now, at the interrogation, when you were taken for interrogation,
11 you said a guard took you, is that correct, for interrogation?
12 A. Yes. Yes.
13 Q. At the interrogation you said -- did they beat you when they
14 questioned you?
15 A. At the interrogation, when I arrived, they did hit me. They
16 questioned me and hit me occasionally. And when they finished with the
17 interrogation -- there were two of them. One was a policeman and one from
18 the crime department, and when they had interrogated me, they took me
19 out. And there were three guards out there. They told me to go out. And
20 then they ordered them to take me away and to beat me, and they took me to
21 a room where they beat me quite a bit, and after that, they took me back
22 to the "white house."
23 Q. Now, Witness, you say "they" beat you. Was it the interrogator or
24 the policeman who beat you?
25 A. A policeman.
1 Q. And that was in front of the interrogator that they beat
2 you -- that he beat you?
3 A. Yes. Yes.
4 Q. Now, you said that you were taken to the "white house" after the
5 interrogation and you fainted. Was it due to the beating that you
7 A. It was because of the beating. I still have some consequences in
8 my left ear. I have an injury.
9 Q. Were there visible injuries on you after this beating?
10 A. Not straight away, but later on, when I left home -- I went to
11 Vienna. From Vienna I went to America. When I arrived in America, I had
12 consequences. So that --
13 Q. Witness, please bear with me.
14 A. -- my left ear was in poor condition.
15 Q. Please try to understand the question that I pose to you and
16 answer without giving any details. Witness, then you said after you
17 were -- there was a soldier who came to the "white house" and called your
18 name. Is that correct?
19 A. Yes, correct.
20 Q. Was it a soldier or a guard who came into the "white house" at
21 that time to call your name? How was he dressed?
22 A. It was a guard, in civilian clothes.
23 Q. He called your name and took you outside to the pista; am I
25 A. Yes. Yes, correct.
1 Q. Do you know the person who -- the name of the guard who called you
3 A. I don't.
4 Q. Then he took you to the pista and Mr. Radic was there; is that
6 A. Yes, correct.
7 Q. And where did Mr. Radic take you?
8 A. When I reached Radic I wasn't fully conscious, and I didn't even
9 recognise him until I got quite close up to him. And then the guard
10 left. Probably Radic told him to go to his position. And he escorted me
11 for about 20 metres. We were all there. My son was there too. My son
12 got up. The other detainees were lying down. And my son got up and saw
13 Mladic with me, and Mladic said that I should join my son, which I did.
14 And after that, I didn't see Radic.
15 Q. Witness, Radic took you to a place in the pista; is that correct?
16 A. Radic took me and told me to go to the pista to join my son and
17 that nobody would hurt me and that I would be safer there than in the
18 "white house." And that is what happened. I joined my son and stayed
19 with him until we went to Manjaca. And I was okay. Nobody hurt me or
20 mistreated me or did anything wrong to me or my son.
21 Q. Now, Witness, when you went to the pista and met Radic and he took
22 you to your son, were there any other guards present at that time?
23 A. No, there were no other guards there.
24 Q. You said today in your evidence that it was in the night that you
25 were called out. Was it in the night or the next day morning that you
1 were called out by the guard?
2 A. In the morning. In the morning, about 6.00, between 6.00 and
4 Q. So when you were called out, there were guards in the pista during
5 that time; am I correct?
6 A. No. The guard came to the "white house" to fetch me. He called
7 me out. He took me out of the "white house." I came across Mladic and
8 then he took me to my son, and he told me to join him and stay there.
9 Q. Now, in the pista, did you see any other guards --
10 A. No, I didn't.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Fila.
12 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] The witness has answered the same
13 question twice already, Your Honour, or maybe three times, so I wonder how
14 many more times Mr. Waidyaratne intends to ask the same question.
15 MR. WAIDYARATNE: I will move on, Your Honour, but I asked that
16 question again because the witness changed his position that it was in the
17 night and subsequently that it was in the morning. That's why I asked
18 those questions. I will move on.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Continue, please.
20 MR. WAIDYARATNE:
21 Q. Witness, until you left to Manjaca, were you in the pista or did
22 you go to any other room?
23 A. During the day, we would be at the pista, and at night we went
24 inside, in the hangar.
25 Q. Who took you to the hangar?
1 A. The guards ordered us to go to the hangar.
2 Q. And in the hangar did you see Mr. Radic? Did he come to see you
3 or any of the prisoners from Ljubija?
4 A. I did not see Radic any other time except when he took me from the
5 "white house" up to my son. After that, I never saw him again, at guard
6 posts or anywhere else. And we couldn't see anyway because we were either
7 in the hangar or at the pista. We had to lie on our stomachs, so we
8 couldn't see people passing by, and I never heard anything about Radic. I
9 knew he had a good reputation. He lived for 20 years amongst us.
10 Q. Please, Witness, answer my question. You don't need to go into
11 details, unnecessary details. Now, Witness, when you left Manjaca, you
12 were taken to Trnopolje; am I correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And from Manjaca, you returned to Ljubija again; is that correct?
15 A. That is correct.
16 Q. You said that Radic came and visited you at least 15 times; is
17 that correct?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. But that he did it in the night and he didn't want any others --
20 A. Yes, at night.
21 Q. -- any others to see you; is that correct?
22 A. That's correct, yes.
23 Q. Did you ask him as to why he risked his position to come and see
25 A. I did ask Mladic, "How did you have the courage to come and visit
1 me?" He said, "I came to check that nobody had abused you or mistreated
2 you since you returned home from the camp." He came to check on me
3 several times to make sure I was all right.
4 Q. Do you know any others who were detainees that Mr. Radic
5 subsequently, after they were released from the camp, whom Mr. Radic
7 A. I know who were in the camp, but I don't know whether he visited
8 others. He probably visited others too, but I didn't hear about it. You
9 see, I went home. I was released as an elderly man. Others stayed on in
10 the camp; others went abroad and were transferred to Croatia.
11 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Please bear with me, Your Honour.
12 [Prosecution counsel confer]
13 MR. WAIDYARATNE:
14 Q. Witness, you gave the names of the policemen who arrested you,
15 Savo and Zekan. Do you know their full names, the policemen from Ljubija?
16 A. All I can say is this: Savo and Zekan did not arrest me. Other
17 policemen arrested me who were in Ljubija. Savo and Zekan interrogated me
18 at the police station in Ljubija.
19 Q. Thank you, Witness.
20 MR. WAIDYARATNE: That concludes my cross-examination. Thank you,
21 Your Honour.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,
23 Mr. Waidyaratne.
24 Mr. Fila, any re-examination?
25 Re-examined by Mr. Fila:
1 Q. Witness DC7, just one question for you: During the time you spent
2 in Omarska, some 30 days or so, and when Krkan took you to your son, did
3 you have the impression that he did this overtly or secretly?
4 A. When I was in Omarska and when Krkan took me to my son, he
5 couldn't do it in public altogether because his people were watching. He
6 had to sort of conceal it a little bit so that people would not see what
7 he was doing.
8 Q. My last question: Do you have any impression or opinion as to his
9 position in the Omarska camp?
10 A. I am not able to say anything about his position in Omarska, but I
11 viewed him as an ordinary guard. He wore a uniform, and sometimes he was
12 a guard providing security of the camp itself.
13 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.
14 That's all for this witness.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Fila.
16 Judge Fouad Riad, please.
17 Questioned by the Court:
18 JUDGE RIAD: Witness DC7, good morning. Can you hear my voice?
19 Can you hear me?
20 A. Yes, I can hear you.
21 JUDGE RIAD: I gather from what you've said that you were an old
22 friend of Mr. Radic. You have known him for a long time; is this right?
23 A. That is right.
24 JUDGE RIAD: The friendship of Mr. Radic, did it continue with you
25 even after the beginning of the ethnic conflict, or did you stay away from
1 each other?
2 A. Our friendship existed from before this started in our country,
3 because he worked, as far as I know, for 20 years as a policeman in our
4 area and he would always come to establish order in the cafe that I ran.
5 We always were on good terms, even afterwards.
6 JUDGE RIAD: I mean even after the start of the conflict.
7 A. Yes. When the conflict started too, we were on good terms. We
8 were always on good terms.
9 JUDGE RIAD: Now, you mentioned that you were mistreated in the
10 interrogation. At that time, was Mr. Radic --
11 A. Yes.
12 JUDGE RIAD: -- aware of your presence in the camp, or was it
13 before he knew about it?
14 A. Mr. Radic was not in the camp that day when I arrived. It was
15 only in the evening that he learnt that I had arrived at the camp. He
16 learnt it from my son and the other people from Ljubija who were in the
18 JUDGE RIAD: So after he learnt about your presence, there was no
20 A. There was none, no.
21 JUDGE RIAD: You said that your son was on the pista and you went
22 to the "white house." Wasn't it your son who was helping --
23 A. Yes.
24 JUDGE RIAD: -- or financing some Muslim funds and organisations?
25 What was the main crime for your son?
1 A. The main charges against my son, he went to the camp a month
2 before me, and they were saying that he had assisted this Muslim
3 organisation and things like that.
4 JUDGE RIAD: And you went to the camp because of your son.
5 A. Yes, yes, that was what they said, apparently.
6 JUDGE RIAD: So the fact that you went to the "white house" and
7 you were not charged with the same accusation, you went -- they put you in
8 the "white house" and your son was in the pista. Was that also due to
9 Mr. Radic's influence? Yes?
10 A. He was taken away a month prior to me and he was first in
11 Keraterm, then in Omarska. Then when I arrived, when I was taken to
12 Omarska, he had already been interrogated, all that was behind him, and he
13 was on the pista and in the hangar.
14 JUDGE RIAD: On the pista also thanks to Mr. Radic's intervention?
15 A. Yes.
16 JUDGE RIAD: Now, you mentioned that Mr. Radic never called people
17 out, you never saw him on the compound, and you never saw him in the
18 kitchen. Where was he? Don't the guards go around these places?
19 A. We would go to the kitchen once in 24 hours. We would get one
20 meal. I never noticed him there at the time in the kitchen or at the
21 pista. He didn't pass by. Some guards did pass by but he didn't. Where
22 he was, I don't know.
23 JUDGE RIAD: The guards who passed by, were they just the simple
24 guards or were they people of certain importance?
25 A. Well, you see, there were ordinary guards and there were also some
1 policemen, but I didn't know any of them. I saw them pass by. Because we
2 always had to lie down, we couldn't really look around much. We weren't
3 standing up to be able to see everything.
4 JUDGE RIAD: Did you have an idea while you were there who was in
5 charge of the camp?
6 A. I could not tell you, nor did I hear who was in charge in the camp
7 because I just didn't know that. I wasn't there for long. After that, we
8 went to Manjaca.
9 JUDGE RIAD: Because Mr. Radic told you that he would have to ask
10 the superior to transfer you. Did he mention to you who was the superior?
11 A. No, he didn't.
12 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Judge Fouad
15 Madam Judge Wald.
16 JUDGE WALD: Witness DC7, following up on Judge Riad's question,
17 you said that when Mr. Radic first talked to you, he said he would try to
18 help you get out of the "white house" but he would have to contact his
19 superiors. I think you testified to that. Then later, in answer to a
20 question, you said that when Mr. Radic took you to the pista, to your son,
21 he had to do it not in the open so that people wouldn't see him too much.
22 Did you have the impression or did you know whether or not, when
23 he did take you to your son and get you out of the "white house," he did
24 that by himself or he had gone to his superiors and gotten permission to
25 do that?
1 Mr. Fila is on his feet.
2 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I wouldn't have any
3 objections, but Judge Riad and now Judge Wald are misinterpreting the
4 witness's statement. Mr. Radic told his son this thing about the command
5 in the camp, not to the witness. Both questions were asked on the basis
6 of something that the witness had not said. Will you please check the
7 transcript? It was his son that Radic told that he had to ask the
8 superiors, not the witness. This is the second time that we are following
9 the wrong path.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila, I believe that Judge
11 Wald has the right to ask this question. In the end, you will have the
12 floor and will be able to say whatever you like.
13 Yes, Judge Wald.
14 JUDGE WALD: I would like to just repeat the basic question at the
16 When Mr. Radic took you to your son, along with the guard at the
17 pista, was it your impression - because you said he didn't do it -- the
18 translation was openly - was it your impression that he was doing that on
19 his own or he was doing it with the approval of whoever those in charge of
20 the camp were?
21 A. When Radic took me to my son, he was not near us. He was on the
22 road that was there between us. He took me to that road and told me to go
23 to my son. Because I could see my son, he told me to move on to my son
24 and that I would be with him.
25 JUDGE WALD: So you didn't have any impression as to whether or
1 not he was doing that on his own authority or with the approval of whoever
2 ran the camp.
3 A. I don't know.
4 JUDGE WALD: All right.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I do not have any questions.
6 Mr. Fila, has the matter been clarified now? Yes, thank you.
7 Very well.
8 Witness, since I do not have any questions for you, we should like
9 to thank you for coming here and we wish you a happy return to where you
11 Will the usher now help you leave the courtroom. Thank you. Just
12 don't move for awhile.
13 [The witness withdrew]
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Fila.
15 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I do not know whether
16 the psychiatrist has arrived. If he has, then we should hear him. If he
17 hasn't, then we have the next witness.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. We shall see now whether
19 he is here or not.
20 THE REGISTRAR: I have just spoken with Victims and Witness
21 Section and he has not arrived as of yet, so they're bringing up the next
23 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Yes. Could Radovan Medic please be
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Somers, do you agree with
1 this sequence or do you have any comments?
2 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, Mr. Fila was kind enough to tell me this
3 morning about the problem, and we have agreed that whenever -- if ever
4 this individual arrives, we'll proceed. We thank him very much for that.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] All right. Very well.
6 [The witness entered court]
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila, before we begin, is
8 this a protected witness or not? Because if not, then we have to put up
9 the curtains.
10 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] No. Until the end of the week, there
11 will be no other protected witnesses.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Then we can pull the
13 screens up.
14 Witness, will you stand up, please. So this is Mr. Radovan Medic
15 [Realtime transcript read in error "Mr. Radic van Medic"]. Good morning.
16 You will now read the solemn declaration which the usher will give you.
17 WITNESS: RADOVAN MEDIC
18 [Witness answered through interpreter]
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
20 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 JUDGE RIAD: There must be some mistake in the name. It says
24 "Mr. Radic Medic."
25 THE WITNESS: Medic.
1 JUDGE RIAD: The first --
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Radovan Medic.
3 JUDGE RIAD: So there is no Radic. All right.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. There is no
6 problem. I trust this will be corrected. So this is Mr. Radovan Medic.
7 Thank you for coming here. Now you will answer questions that Mr. Fila
8 will be asking of you.
9 Mr. Fila, you have the floor.
10 Examined by Mr. Fila:
11 Q. Mr. Radovan Medic, where were you born and when?
12 A. I did not hear you. I cannot hear anything.
13 Q. Can you hear me now?
14 A. Yes, now I do.
15 Q. Mr. Medic, where and when were you born?
16 A. I was born on the 7th of January, 1954, in Bosanski Novi.
17 Q. And where do you live now?
18 A. Now I live in Prijedor, Herzegovacka 17.
19 Q. What are you?
20 A. I am a car mechanic, but I work as a driver.
21 THE INTERPRETER: Would the counsel and witness please pause
22 between question and answer.
23 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]
24 Q. And your ethnicity is?
25 A. Serb.
1 Q. And you are of Orthodox faith?
2 A. Yes.
3 THE INTERPRETER: Will the counsel and witness please pause
4 between question and answer.
5 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Did you work for Autotransport before the war?
7 A. Yes, I did, and I work there to this day. I still work there.
8 Q. Do you have a family?
9 A. I have a wife and two sons.
10 Q. Have you ever been convicted?
11 A. No.
12 Q. While you worked -- during your career at Autotransport Prijedor
13 before the war, did you meet a person called (redacted)
14 A. (redacted).
15 Q. (redacted)
16 A. (redacted)
20 Q. (redacted)
22 A. (redacted)
25 Q. Now we shall move on to 1991. Where were you in September 1991
1 and what position did you hold?
2 A. In September I was in West Slavonia. The place is called Bijele
3 Stijene, near Lipik, and I was deputy chief responsible for security of
4 the Motorised Brigade, of the 343rd Motorised Brigade, and I was also the
5 chief commander's driver.
6 Q. Did you have a rank, and which one?
7 A. When I entered the war, I was a Captain.
8 Q. And when you left the war?
9 A. I was a Major.
10 THE INTERPRETER: Will the counsel and witness please pause
11 between question and answer.
12 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]
13 Q. And since you were a military policeman, did you have any powers
14 regarding transgressions, incidents, thefts by JNA soldiers?
15 A. Yes. That was my only duty. I was responsible for that form of
16 crime in the Yugoslav People's Army.
17 Q. And who was the head of security, the chief of security?
18 A. The chief of security. The chief of security was Ranko Babic,
19 Captain First Class Ranko Babic.
20 Q. When in that area around Lipik did you come across (redacted)
21 again, and what was she doing then?
22 A. I did come across her towards the end of November or in early
23 December. I'm not quite sure. (redacted)
25 Q. As a volunteer in the Yugoslav People's Army, was she a
1 combatant? Did the Yugoslav People's Army mobilise women?
2 A. No, the Yugoslav People's Army did not mobilise women. She had
3 applied as a volunteer. There were two or three women in that unit.
4 Q. Will you now explain to us the incident which happened with regard
5 to some theft.
6 A. As I have already mentioned, in late November or early December, a
7 complaint arrived for four or five inhabitants there of Croat ethnicity.
8 They came to report burglaries and theft of the inventory, that is, of
9 technical goods. And the chief of security ordered me to go to the scene
10 to see what had happened. And as we investigated in a bus, we found a
11 large number of these technical goods there, that is, television,
12 microwave ovens, and so on and so forth. That bus was responsibility
13 [as interpreted] and it was driven by Miodrag Kicanovic. And I tried to
14 find, on the basis of documents, to see who was responsible for what, and
15 then I looked for that Kicanovic. When I found him and asked him, "What's
16 this in the bus?" he said, "Oh, nothing. Give me the keys." And I took
17 him to the bus, but he did not have the keys because (redacted) had the
19 Q. Did (redacted) use that bus for a purpose?
20 A. Miodrag Kicanovic has given the bus to (redacted) to sleep in it,
21 and (redacted) and in
22 another unit there were two more women, so that she wouldn't sleep with
23 the rest. And then we found (redacted), and she said afterwards that those
24 things did not belong to her. But then some people recognised her, and a
25 soldier -- (redacted). I'm not sure. (redacted).
9 Q. (redacted)
11 A. (redacted).
16 Q. Did you make photocopies of all those documents? Did you keep
17 them and then turn them over to the Defence?
18 A. I turned over all the originals, as I had to, and I copied only
19 the documents which I needed so that I would keep -- I wanted to keep them
20 as my protection in view of the developments.
21 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I should like to ask the usher to get
22 three documents: D15/3A and D15/3B, and then D16 and D17.
23 Q. What are they about, Witness?
24 A. This is the official record which was drawn up for the military
25 police in the command, that is, the military police in the locality called
1 Bijele Stijene.
2 Q. And who signed the document?
3 A. I signed this document on behalf of the chief of security because
4 he was absent and I was authorised by him to do that.
5 Q. Are there any other signatures here?
6 A. There is also the signature of (redacted) and Miodrag Kicanovic.
7 Q. Does he -- does she say in this document that she had robbed the
8 objects found in the bus?
9 A. Yes. But then a criminal record -- a criminal report was done.
10 This was only the record, the official record of what had been found at
11 the scene.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] You can take those documents back, and
14 bring document D16/3A and D16/3B.
15 Q. What are these documents about; will you tell us? Is that the
16 document that you handed over?
17 A. This was the criminal report; that is, Ranko Babic was succeeded
18 by Captain First Class Zvonko --
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me. We still do not have
20 the document on the ELMO. Does the Prosecution have the document?
21 MR. SAXON: Yes, we do, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] All right. Very well.
23 THE REGISTRAR: I've just checked my records and the document is
25 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] No, it is not confidential. Could the
1 usher please put it on the ELMO.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila, just a moment. We see
3 that the document is marked as confidential and therefore we have to check
4 that properly.
5 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I can put it in a very
6 cautious manner. Is that the criminal report filed on the basis of the
7 official record that the witness submitted?
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. Fila, Madam Registrar
9 will see about this document because this document was filed as a
10 confidential document. I do not really know why was it filed as such.
11 But if it is confidential, we cannot show it, unless the decision to have
12 if filed as confidential is changed. Do you know anything about why it
13 was filed as confidential?
14 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I believe, Mr. President, that this is
15 because it was during the interrogation of an individual, of a protected
16 individual. But I did not ask that it be made confidential.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I do not really remember, but it
18 is true that it has to be verified. Madam Registrar gave me the document
19 and I saw that it was marked confidential. So perhaps we can examine it
20 in a private session, as a precautionary measure.
21 Can we move into private session now, please, and I will ask the
22 usher to use the ELMO. The witness needs to verify the document on the
23 ELMO, but you will adjust the position of the ELMO.
24 [Private session]
15 [Open session]
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Do other Defence counsel have
17 any other questions to ask of this witness? Mr. Simic, do you have any
19 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. I see that other
21 counsel do not have other questions.
22 Do you have questions, Judge Wald? Just a moment, please.
23 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Saxon, your witness.
25 Please go ahead with the cross-examination.
1 JUDGE RIAD: I just want to mention that in the last document we
2 had on the ELMO, there was a confusion between "she" and "he." Sometimes
3 they would say "he." So I want to make sure that the "he" was a reference
4 to the "she," or it was another person. This is a verification which can
5 be done again. The last document we had on the ELMO.
6 MR. SAXON: All right, Your Honour, I will try to get to that last
7 document and ask the witness to clarify that.
8 Cross-examined by Mr. Saxon:
9 Q. Mr. Medic, before Mr. Fila began to ask you questions, you took an
10 oath today to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Do you
11 stand by everything that you have told the Trial Chamber this morning?
12 A. I do.
13 Q. You mentioned that for a number of years now you've been working
14 as a driver for the Autotransport company. Is that the company that
15 operates buses in Prijedor?
16 A. It is the company that renders services of all kind; the transport
17 of people, goods. It deals in cars, repairs, and everything to do with
18 traffic and vehicles. It encompasses all that.
19 Q. During May/June of 1992, were you working for the Autotransport
20 company as a driver?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Were you working as a mechanic?
23 A. No. At that time, I was on the battlefield.
24 Q. You mentioned that when you were serving in Croatia in 1991, that
25 there was an incident that occurred, according to you, at the end of
1 November or early December regarding (redacted). Do you recall
2 describing that incident?
3 A. I remember that, yes.
4 MR. SAXON: If the usher could place Exhibit D15/3B back on the
5 ELMO, please.
6 Q. You have the B/C/S version in front of you; is that correct,
7 Mr. Medic?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. At the top of the page, we see the words "Lieutenant Radovan
10 Medic." That was you, was it not, or is you?
11 A. Yes, that's me.
12 Q. This report or official note is a report of an investigation into
13 the incident that you described that occurred in November/December 1991;
14 is that right?
15 A. That's right, yes.
16 Q. Can you explain to the Trial Chamber why this report, this
17 official note, is dated 16 October 1991? How is it that a report
18 regarding an incident that occurred at the end of November or December
19 1991 was compiled at least a month before the incident happened? Can you
20 explain that?
21 A. You didn't understand me. But please could you repeat your
22 question? It's not quite clear.
23 Q. You testified today several times that this alleged incident
24 involving (redacted) occurred in Croatia, in an area known as Lipik,
25 at the end of November or in December of 1991. Defence counsel has asked
1 you to comment upon an official note which you allegedly compiled
2 regarding that alleged incident. This official note is dated 16 October
3 1991, what's in front of you right now.
4 I'm asking you, how was it that you were able to work on an
5 investigation of an incident that allegedly occurred in October 1991,
6 compile a report, if the incident did not occur until late November or
7 early December 1991? Can you explain that, please?
8 A. The incident occurred on the date when this official note was
9 written, in Donji Caglic. I could not remember whether it was the end of
10 October, the beginning of November, or whatever, because it was a long
11 time ago. But the document is dated the 16th of October, when it was
12 compiled. And then the proceedings ensued and she was investigated, et
14 Q. I just want to understand you. You come into this courtroom today
15 in public and you make allegations about a person in public and you talk
16 about the date when this alleged incident happened in public, and now you
17 tell us, well, you can't really remember the date when the incident
18 occurred. Is that what you're saying?
19 A. The incident occurred at the end of September -- at the end of
20 October or mid-October. That was when it happened. I can't remember.
21 It's 10 or 11 years ago and it's difficult to remember the dates, when
22 what happened. It was a long time ago.
23 Q. (redacted)
25 Q. (redacted)
2 A. (redacted)
3 Q. (redacted)
8 A. (redacted)
9 Q. (redacted)
11 A. (redacted)
13 Q. (redacted)
15 A. (redacted).
16 Q. (redacted)
18 A. (redacted)
21 Q. (redacted)
24 A. (redacted)
25 Q. (redacted)
5 A. (redacted)
6 Q. (redacted)
10 A. (redacted)
13 Q. (redacted)
18 A. (redacted)
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] (redacted)
22 [Trial Chamber confers with registrar]
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon, there seems to be
24 some confusion. I have ordered that the transcript be redacted, because
25 the document that was placed on the ELMO was confidential; it is a
1 confidential document. So I have issued orders that the transcript be
2 redacted and it be deleted from the LiveNote. Please proceed.
3 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour, and I apologise for any
4 inconvenience that I have caused.
5 While we're on the subject of this confidential document, if I
6 could ask -- I'm going to move backward. The witness was beginning to
7 answer a question, but I don't think he had the time to finish his
8 question [sic].
9 Q. Mr. Medic, you began to say, "At that time during the combat, my
10 sons were minors," and then we had to take a short pause. Is there
11 anything more you want to say in answer to your question?
12 A. I was only afraid because my sons were minors, they were underage,
13 and I was told, "Watch out what you're doing, because somebody could take
14 your child."
15 Q. Is it your testimony today that the production of an alleged
16 criminal report about theft of some, as you put it, technical items, was
17 going to place your sons at risk and that's why you needed to keep copies
18 of these reports?
19 A. It wasn't the theft that was a danger, but those people who had
20 perpetrated this, who took part in those things.
21 Q. So how could keeping photocopies of reports that you wrote about
22 such a theft provide you with protection or provide your sons with
24 A. The original documents were handed over in regular fashion. If I
25 told the perpetrators that I had the document and that I hadn't handed it
1 in and shown them the photocopy, then they thought that I was their man
2 and that I would protect them.
3 Q. I will move on.
4 MR. SAXON: Can we place document D16/3B again on the ELMO, and I
5 understand it is a confidential document. I would retract that. If the
6 B/C/S version of this document can simply be shown to the witness one more
7 time so that we don't have further problems with confidentiality. I have
8 a language question to ask the witness that I hope will also clear up the
9 question that Judge Riad asked at the beginning. Or we could go into
10 private session for one moment, Your Honour. It is up to the Trial
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon, how much time do you
13 need to complete your cross-examination, roughly? Because I'm looking at
14 the clock and see that it's 11.00, so we should take a break round about
15 now. We have been working for some time. How much more do you need?
16 MR. SAXON: I believe I could do it in about two minutes, Your
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You mean the whole of your
19 cross-examination, to complete it?
20 MR. SAXON: Yes.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. Very well. Let us
22 have -- give the document to the witness without placing it on the ELMO.
23 Hand him the document in B/C/S. Is that what you wish, Mr. Saxon?
24 MR. SAXON: May we please go into private session, Your Honour.
25 I've been informed that I need to have this document on the ELMO so that
1 the interpreters can see it.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Let us move into private
3 session for a few moments.
4 [Private session]
13 Page 9057 redacted – private session
16 [Open session]
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We are in open session. Please
18 proceed, Mr. Fila.
19 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Mr. Medic, ten years have gone by since that particular event.
21 Was your memory better today and what you said today, or what was written
22 there in --
23 A. What was written there is better. Ten years later I am not able
24 to remember all the details, because I had very many similar cases, cases
25 of that kind.
1 Q. You gave a statement to Zoran Jovanovic?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And then you said that it was in mid-October. Do you recall that?
4 A. Yes, I remember.
5 Q. And my last question: What you read out, the document in closed
6 session, you said that it was a form, a standard form. What do we mean by
7 "standard form"?
8 A. It means a form, a document which the information service can give
9 to the Security Service, and the document is printed both for male and
10 female, because we had women in the army as well.
11 Q. The document says "military conscript."
12 A. Yes, she is a military conscript, but she was a volunteer. She
13 joined the Yugoslav People's Army on a voluntary basis and expressly asked
14 to be sent to the battleground.
15 Q. And my last question: Did you compile that form or was the form
16 compiled by someone else?
17 A. I signed the form, but usually you dictate it to a typist or
18 somebody like that.
19 Q. But you received this standard form?
20 A. Yes. The form is a standard form, typewritten, and you just cross
21 out or leave in whether it is he or she, depending on the criminal report
22 being made.
23 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Fila.
25 Madam Judge Wald has the floor.
1 Questioned by the Court:
2 JUDGE WALD: I have two questions. For the second one, I think
3 maybe to avoid confusion, it's better to go into private session.
4 The first one is simply this: Were you actually in the presence
5 (redacted)? I mean, were you there? Did you hear
6 her? You actually heard her confess?
7 A. (redacted)
10 JUDGE WALD: Okay. I just wanted to clarify that. Could we go
11 into private session for just one question.
12 [Private session]
13 Page 9061 redacted – private session
22 [Open session]
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Radovan Medic, we have no
24 further questions for you. We thank you for coming to the Tribunal and
25 wish you a safe return back to your place of residence. I am now going to
1 ask the usher to accompany you out of the courtroom.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I should like to thank you too. I
3 did not answer the question put to me by the gentleman here that I am
4 accusing somebody. I am just presenting the facts, the facts that I
5 witnessed. I am not accusing anybody, nor am I authorised to accuse
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Witness.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too, Your Honours.
9 [The witness withdrew]
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Let us now take a half-hour
12 --- Recess taken at 11.18 a.m.
13 --- On resuming at 11.49 a.m.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.
15 Mr. Fila, I think the next witness is Miodrag Kicanovic.
16 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, unless the
17 psychiatrist has arrived in the meantime. In that case, yes, Miodrag.
18 [The witness entered court]
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Kicanovic.
20 Can you hear me?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I hear you extremely well.
22 Good morning.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. You are now going to
24 read the solemn declaration that the usher is going to give you, please.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I declare that I will speak the
1 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
2 WITNESS: MIODRAG KICANOVIC
3 [Witness answered through interpreter]
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Approach the microphones,
7 please, a little. That's fine now. First you will be answering questions
8 put to you by Mr. Fila.
9 Mr. Fila, your witness.
10 Examined by Mr. Fila:
11 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning. You are Miodrag Kicanovic, are you
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. When and where were you born?
15 A. In 1941, in Raca, near Bijeljina, on the 9th of July.
16 Q. By ethnicity, you are?
17 A. A Serb.
18 Q. Of Orthodox faith?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What are you by trade?
21 A. I am a professional driver.
22 Q. Do you have a family?
23 A. I am married and have two children.
24 Q. Before the beginning of the war, you were living in Prijedor,
25 weren't you?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Where were you working at the time?
3 A. In Autotransport Prijedor, as a bus driver.
4 Q. From when until when?
5 A. From 1971 until 1993.
6 Q. And then you moved to where?
7 A. In 1993, I moved to Bijeljina.
8 Q. While you were working in Autotransport in Prijedor as a bus
9 driver, did you meet a person called (redacted)?
10 A. (redacted)
12 Q. (redacted)
14 A. (redacted).
15 Q. Did you visit each other? Were you friends?
16 A. Yes, we were very close. (redacted)
17 (redacted), and that is how we became close friends. (redacted)
19 Q. (redacted)
21 A. (redacted)
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Waidyaratne.
24 MR. WAIDYARATNE: I object to this question, Your Honour.
25 Mr. Fila is asking for a general opinion of this witness; not even the
1 opinion of this witness but a general opinion. Thank you, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila.
3 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I don't want to keep you. I wanted to
4 save some time so let me rephrase it.
5 Q. Do you know whether any proceedings were conducted against her
6 during her employment?
7 A. Yes, there were criminal proceedings because she was taking money
8 from passengers without giving them tickets for it in return.
9 Q. Were any disciplinary proceedings conducted against her?
10 A. Yes, in the company.
11 Q. Were you aware of that at the time?
12 A. I learnt afterwards.
13 Q. Did you take care that it should not happen?
14 A. Yes. When she worked with me, it never happened. But when she
15 worked with other colleagues, it did happen.
16 Q. Let us now focus on 1991. Can you tell us whether you were in
17 Lipik, and why?
18 A. I was because I was in the JNA as a bus driver.
19 Q. Did you meet that person there again, (redacted)?
20 A. I did.
21 Q. What was she doing there?
22 A. (redacted).
23 Q. Was she a member of the JNA?
24 A. Yes, she was. (redacted).
25 Q. Would she sometimes use your bus?
1 A. Yes, because my superior said I had to give her the key. All of
2 us who were in the reserve at the time, in the unit, we could use this bus
3 for personal needs, for sleeping in it. I slept there sometimes.
4 Q. Can you tell us about an incident linked to Radovan Medic?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. I don't want to lead you. Just tell us in your own words what
8 A. It was either in October or November. I can't remember exactly.
9 I know it was in autumn. Radovan Medic came and called me and several
10 other policemen - I can't remember how many - asking me what I had in the
11 bus. I said I had no idea. Then he said, "Where is your key?" and I
12 said, "I gave the key to (redacted).
13 Somebody went to find her. She opened the bus, and in the bus we
14 were astonished. There were TV sets and various other appliances. I
15 don't know how many of them, there were so many.
16 Q. Did Radovan Medic tell you what he had done about it?
17 A. I'm sorry, I didn't hear half of your question.
18 Q. Was is it established who had put these goods in the bus, these TV
19 sets, recorders, and so on?
20 A. (redacted)
21 (redacted), so that he didn't bother me
22 any more, nor did he press any charges against me, because people had told
23 him I had nothing to do with those goods. I had just given her the key.
24 (redacted), what she put in the bus. I had
25 no idea. And only when we unlocked it did we realise and see what was
2 Q. Was it established who had put the stuff in the bus?
3 A. Yes. It was established that it was (redacted), with some other
4 people. I don't know who they were.
5 Q. And where did those goods come from?
6 A. They came from abandoned houses in Croatia, from Lipik and the
8 Q. Would you agree with me that they had been stolen?
9 A. Yes, I would, of course. What else? Because if there's no one in
10 the house and you collect the stuff from inside, what else can it be
11 called but theft?
12 MR. WAIDYARATNE: [Microphone not activated]
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] It's a bit leading. Please
14 rephrase the question, Mr. Fila.
15 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Do you know the origin of those goods? Can you tell us where
17 those goods came from?
18 A. You don't mean the trademarks, do you? They were TV sets, video
19 recorders, and other appliances from abandoned houses in Croatia, Croatian
21 Q. How did they find their way to the bus?
22 A. Because she went with some other men; I don't know who. They
23 collected the stuff, brought it there, and put it in the bus. They used
24 the truck that she drove during the night. They were not in the compound
25 at all, and it was not my job to check where people were going.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts.
1 Q. This was towards the end of 1991, wasn't it?
2 A. Yes. Yes, in 1991, yes.
3 Q. Do you know roughly what month it was?
4 A. October or November, something like that. I can't recollect
5 exactly, but I know it was in the autumn.
6 Q. After that, did you see or hear anything about (redacted)?
7 A. No. From that day on, the day the incident occurred, I never saw
8 or heard about her again, to this day.
9 Q. Do you perhaps know whether she told any stories in Prijedor about
10 what had happened?
11 A. On one occasion I was away on business. I came back and some
12 friends told me that she had said certain things.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Waidyaratne.
14 MR. WAIDYARATNE: This is also speculation, Your Honour. Mr. Fila
15 is getting this witness to speculate and speak about hearsay, and there is
16 no basis for this answer.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila.
18 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, you allowed Mr. Saxon to
19 ask about something that an investigator heard from another witness, one
20 of his investigators; not from another witness, but from an investigator
21 who spoke to a witness.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So please continue. Ask the
23 witness whether he heard anything so it's not speculation. To hear is not
25 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Did you hear that (redacted) had told some stories about you and
2 about this incident?
3 A. I heard it from others, but I specifically did not see anything,
4 but I heard from friends that she had told some stories. But I don't know
5 the exact contents. No one can tell me the exact substance of what she
7 Q. Did she say anything about your role in that event?
8 A. I don't know. It wasn't I myself that heard her say things. Some
9 people said one story, others another story, so I never managed to get to
10 the bottom of it, what was the truth of it.
11 Q. But did she say that you had reported her or something to that
13 A. She may have. I don't know. Perhaps because I would not accept
14 any guilt for assuming upon myself any part of the blame for something I
15 hadn't done.
16 Q. Did you hear that she was angry at you because of this?
17 A. She probably was angry, because --
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.
19 MR. WAIDYARATNE: The witness clearly said, "She may have. I
20 don't know," and Mr. Fila is putting the same question again to this
22 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] This time Mr. Waidyaratne is right, and
23 I withdraw the question.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Rephrase it, please.
25 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]
1 Q. In the course of 1992, did you ever see (redacted)?
2 A. No. No.
3 Q. What would be your comment if somebody were to establish that you
4 had raped her in 1992?
5 A. I spent very little time in Prijedor, because I was a driver and I
6 was driving around a lot.
7 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no further
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Any other Defence counsel that
10 wish to cross-examine? I see negative responses.
11 Then, Mr. Waidyaratne, your turn, please.
12 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Cross-examined by Mr. Waidyaratne:
14 Q. Mr. Kicanovic, when did you get married?
15 A. In 1965.
16 Q. What is your wife's name?
17 A. My wife's name is Mileva.
18 Q. How old are your children?
19 A. My oldest son was born in 1965, and the second one in 1971.
20 Q. Mr. Kicanovic, before you moved to Bijeljina in 1993, you had a
21 good relationship with (redacted)? That's what you said in your direct
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. (redacted)
25 (redacted) the passengers, am I correct, when she
2 A. Yes, you are right.
3 Q. And in fact, you all used to visit each other quite often, your
4 family, (redacted)?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... opportunity or it was not
7 necessary for you to complain about (redacted) during the time that you
8 worked with her, the period of 10 to 11 years, about her conduct as a
9 colleague; is that correct?
10 A. Yes, you are right, because that is the kind of man I am; I always
11 wanted to help others. And when I noticed that something was wrong in the
12 case of a conductor, I would call him or her up and say, "Pay attention.
13 Be careful. There will be controls. And don't stain your reputation by
14 not giving a ticket to one or two passengers and taking money from them,"
15 so that everybody was fond of me.
16 Q. I was asking about (redacted). Now, Mr. Kicanovic, when did you
17 go to Lipik?
18 A. I went to Lipik on the 16th of September, 1991.
19 Q. Did you serve in a place by the name of Kovacevac during the
20 Croatian conflict?
21 A. Lipik.
22 Q. Lipik?
23 A. Lipik.
24 Q. Did you go to Kovacevac? Do you know a place by the name of
1 A. I do.
2 Q. Did you serve in that area?
3 A. Yes. I was also in Kovacevac. It is very close to Lipik.
4 Q. Did you drive your vehicle during that time?
5 A. Yes. The bus.
6 Q. Did you drive expelled Croats from that area in camps in Vlasic
7 and Gradiska?
8 A. No.
9 Q. What did you do?
10 A. No.
11 Q. What was your function during the time that you worked or served
12 in Kovacevac?
13 A. My task as a bus driver was to transport our reservists wherever
14 it was necessary.
15 Q. At the time that (redacted)
17 A. Yes. (redacted), as I knew, (redacted)
19 Q. You were responsible for your bus and you had the keys for the
20 bus, for your bus which you drove; am I correct?
21 A. Yes, you are.
22 Q. And in the night you slept in the bus, whereas (redacted), who
23 (redacted), was sleeping in the house; am I correct?
24 A. Yes. I was responsible for my bus. (redacted)
25 (redacted). And I sometimes slept in the bus. When it was
1 very cold, I also slept in a house.
2 Q. But according to the statement that you gave, (redacted) used to
3 sleep in the house, not in your bus. That's the correct position? This
4 is what you have said in your statement.
5 A. Yes, but please let me tell you. It says "sometimes" there.
6 Sometimes she slept in the bus and sometimes in the house. It depended on
7 the weather and whether it was cold. (redacted)
9 Q. Now, in your statement which you have given to the Defence, you
10 have said, (redacted) Is
11 that correct? Yes or no.
12 A. Yes, because I told you just now that sometimes she slept in the
13 house and sometimes in the bus, or vice versa. It depended on when people
14 were on duty in the car park. We had to secure the car park.
15 Q. Now, you spoke about an instance of Mr. Radovan Medic coming to
16 you and asking you about the keys to the bus. At that time you had the
17 keys with you; am I correct?
18 A. No, no, you are not correct.
19 Q. Now, do you remember that you gave a statement to your counsel,
20 Mr. Jovanovic? Do you remember that?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. In that, you said, "Radovan Medic came to me and asked me about
23 things that I had in the bus. I answered that I did not know what things
24 he was talking about. We went to the bus where we found several
25 television sets." It was you and Mr. Medic who went to the bus; is that
1 the correct position, or is it different today?
2 A. No, my statement does not differ in any respect. I don't know
3 whether you have been listening when I was answering questions put by
4 Mr. Toma Fila. Radovan came and asked me, "What are those things in the
5 bus?" and I said I didn't know. Then he asked, "Where is the key?" and I
6 said, "(redacted) has it." That is what I said a moment ago, that is
7 what I'm saying now, and there is no other truth but that. (redacted)
8 had the key because she took the key from me.
9 Q. Mr. Kicanovic, in your statement, you have said that you went with
10 Mr. Medic to the bus and found the items, but you have not mentioned that
11 (redacted) had the keys at the time when Mr. Medic came and spoke to
12 you. You have never stated that fact. What is your position? What is
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Fila. The witness has
15 already answered your question and you're insisting, Mr. Waidyaratne.
16 Mr. Fila, is that your objection?
17 The witness has already explained this very well, so please
19 MR. WAIDYARATNE:
20 Q. You didn't see (redacted); is that
22 A. No, (redacted)
23 inside. Somebody else must have seen it, and I don't know whether whoever
24 it was reported it. That is what I told you a moment ago and that is what
25 I said in my statement. Radovan Medic came to me and asked me, "What are
1 the things in the bus?" I said I didn't know and I said that (redacted)
2 had the key, and that is the only truth.
3 When we found (redacted). Somebody found (redacted),
4 one of the policemen. She came and brought the key with her, and Radovan
5 was able to see for himself. He unlocked the bus, and then Radovan,
6 myself, and some other policemen looked inside. I was appalled when I saw
7 it, and then the bus was locked up again. The things were collected and
8 taken away. I don't know what happened to those things after that. That
9 is how things were and that is what I said in my statement.
10 Q. Do you know whether (redacted) was prosecuted for this offence?
11 A. Do you mean because of those goods or what?
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. I believe that criminal proceedings were instituted, but I don't
14 know, I'm not aware of that.
15 Q. You said you heard stories about (redacted). What exactly did
16 you hear and from whom did you hear this? What were these stories?
17 A. I heard, but I (redacted)
18 (redacted), I met one
19 (redacted), "Your big friend has stolen a lot
20 of stuff," and I said, "(redacted)"
21 and I thought he was referring to those TV sets.
22 Q. When was this?
23 A. That was in 1993.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Correction. The witness said that (redacted)
25 had made various accusations against the witness.
1 MR. WAIDYARATNE:
2 Q. Mr. Kicanovic, did you know a person by the name of (redacted)?
3 Yes or no.
4 A. Yes. The interpreters corrected the name. (redacted)
5 (redacted). He is still a (redacted) there.
6 Q. Do you know a person by the name of Mico Jurisic?
7 A. Yes. (redacted).
8 Q. Did you meet them during the month of June and July 1992?
9 A. I did see Cedo Kocic because we would meet on the road. As for
10 Mico Jurisic, I did not have occasion to come across him.
11 Q. Did you meet any of these people while you were in the Keraterm
12 camp? Did you visit the Keraterm camp during the months of June and July?
13 A. No, never.
14 Q. Were you a member of the 5th Kozarac Brigade?
15 A. No.
16 Q. In which unit were you? What was the unit that you were attached
17 to when you were mobilised?
18 A. 43rd Motorised Brigade.
19 Q. Where were you assigned to in the months of June and July?
20 A. Which year?
21 Q. In 1992.
22 A. In 1992, in the Zarko Zgonjanin barracks in Prijedor.
23 Q. In 1992, in the month of June, you were in Prijedor?
24 A. Whether I was there or whether I wasn't, I can't remember, because
25 I was a driver.
1 Q. In the month of July, were you in Prijedor?
2 A. I'm telling you, I can't remember all those months or days because
3 I frequently was away, going to Belgrade, Novi Sad, Budva, whatever,
4 because I worked, I was quite busy as a driver.
5 Q. Mr. Kicanovic, were you provided a uniform?
6 A. Yes, of the former JNA.
7 Q. What is the colour of the uniform?
8 A. Olive-green/grey.
9 Q. You know that you went to the apartment of (redacted) in the
10 month of June with a group of soldiers in order to search the apartment;
11 is that correct?
12 A. Come on.
13 Q. Isn't it true that you searched that apartment of (redacted)?
14 A. Let me tell you, the last time I saw her was in Slavonia -- no,
15 no, I cannot say it when I never laid my eyes on her since 1991. How can
16 i tell you when I never saw her after 1991?
17 Q. While you were searching this apartment --
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Waidyaratne,
19 Mr. Waidyaratne, please take care. The witness said that he had not
20 searched the apartment, so now ...
21 MR. WAIDYARATNE:
22 Q. Did you at any time search apartments in Prijedor?
23 A. Never, nobody's, and I affirm that under full responsibility. If
24 I may answer that former question, I never headed a group of soldiers, nor
25 did I have anything to do with the troops. I was merely a driver.
1 Q. Isn't it true that you raped (redacted) in 1992, in the month of
3 A. God bless me, I never saw her in 1991. How could I?
4 MR. WAIDYARATNE: That concludes my cross-examination. Thank you,
5 Your Honour.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila, do you have any
7 additional questions?
8 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] With your leave, just one thing that I
9 forgot to ask.
10 Re-examined by Mr. Fila:
11 Q. Do you know Adem Mehmedovic, and what was he?
12 A. Yes, I do know Adem Mehmedovic very well. He was another
13 conductor who worked with me.
14 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Fila.
16 Judge Riad, do you have any questions?
17 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you, I do.
18 Questioned by the Court:
19 JUDGE RIAD: Good morning, Mr. Kicanovic.
20 A. Good morning.
21 JUDGE RIAD: Just for the sake of clarification: First you said
22 there were criminal proceedings and disciplinary proceedings taken against
23 (redacted) because of her taking money from the passengers and so on. What was
24 the result of these proceedings? What was the outcome? Was she found
25 guilty? Was she punished?
1 A. Yes, as far as I can recall, I said disciplinary proceedings in
2 the company. Yes, they were conducted because she appropriated money.
3 She would take money without issuing tickets, and that happened several
4 times. At my suggestion, the workers' council sent her to work in the
5 laundry rather than dismiss her, because I knew her, knew her family, and
6 I knew that she came from a poor family.
7 JUDGE RIAD: You said she joined the JNA in 1991 as a volunteer;
8 that's right?
9 A. That is right, yes.
10 JUDGE RIAD: When she was found, as you mentioned, in possession
11 of TV sets and recorders from abandoned houses in Croatia, I mean this is
12 supposed to be a robbery, isn't it, when you go into houses of people who
13 went away and you take things. Isn't that a crime?
14 A. I could agree with you that that is what a robbery is.
15 JUDGE RIAD: Was it punished in the JNA, such crimes, or was it
16 allowed for the soldiers to rob abandoned houses?
17 A. No, they were not allowed to do that. As far as I know, everyone
18 who committed such a crime was removed from the unit. But what kind of
19 proceedings were then conducted, believe it or not, I really wasn't
20 abreast of those things.
21 JUDGE RIAD: Was she removed from the unit?
22 A. Yes. As of that day, I never saw her again, to this day.
23 JUDGE RIAD: So that takes us to 1993, when one of your colleagues
24 who told you that your big friend has stolen a lot of things. Do you know
25 anything about these things she stole in 1993? Was that a new robbery or
1 was that a reference to 1991?
2 A. Well, it was 1991. It referred to 1991, because it had to do with
3 me directly. But whether she committed any crimes after that, believe me,
4 I just don't know.
5 JUDGE RIAD: Did she accuse you officially when she was being
6 questioned about what she did?
7 A. Well, could be, now that you ask me, that that was that, that my
8 colleagues heard how I had led a group of soldiers and came to a flat and
9 broken into it and then raped her. But that is crazy, seeing that I never
10 saw her after 1991.
11 JUDGE RIAD: And was there any follow-up of this accusation when
12 she accused you? Were you called and questioned or something?
13 A. No.
14 JUDGE RIAD: The accusation was official or was it just a rumour,
15 (redacted) telling people around that you raped her, or she went and made a
16 complaint officially?
17 A. I really don't know, because to this day I have not received
18 anything official, no document charging me with this. And I was really
19 quite taken aback when I heard here that I was being accused of having
20 done that. I couldn't have done that because I did not see her then.
21 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Judge Riad.
23 Judge Wald.
24 JUDGE WALD: Mr. Kicanovic, when Mr. Medic investigated the bus
25 incident, he interviewed you, obviously; right? He talked to you about
1 your version of what happened? When he was looking into the problem of
2 the television sets and things in the bus, he -- since it was your bus, he
3 obviously talked to you about what your version of the events was; right?
4 A. Could you please tell me -- could you word it differently? When
5 talked to me? When exactly?
6 JUDGE WALD: According to what you have said today and in your
7 statement, Mr. Medic came to you and asked you about what was in the bus,
8 and together you went to the bus and you found these -- all of these
9 appliances, et cetera, and you told him that you had given the keys to
10 (redacted); right?
11 A. Yes, that is right.
12 JUDGE WALD: Okay. And subsequently they talked to her,
13 obviously; they went and found her and talked to her. Now, after that,
14 after they had talked to her, were you interviewed by Mr. Medic or -- yes,
15 by Mr. Medic after that, or was that the end of your participation in the
16 investigation completely?
17 A. Yes, that was the end of my participation because Mr. Medic was
18 reassured that I did not have the key and that somebody had set me up,
19 that somebody had told him - I don't know who - who had seen (redacted)
20 and some other reservists put things there. And when the key was brought
21 and we unlocked the bus, then Radovan Medic told me that I was cleared and
22 free to go. And then we did not talk any further, because there was no
23 need for that.
24 JUDGE WALD: So if I understand you correctly, and I just want to
25 make sure I understand your answer correctly, after that first time at the
1 bus, when you were looking at the bus together and you told him you had
2 given the keys to (redacted), you learned or found out that they went and
3 got her and talked to her. Now, after that, Mr. Medic never came back to
4 you and told you what she had said, is that correct, about what happened?
5 A. Well, because she confessed to doing that, and he then wrote a
6 report, which she signed.
7 JUDGE WALD: Fine. How did you find out about the fact that she
8 confessed? Who told you that she confessed?
9 A. Because the record was done on the spot, the record of the things
10 that were found in the bus.
11 JUDGE WALD: So you were there when she confessed? Were you there
12 when she confessed?
13 A. Yes, I was nearby.
14 JUDGE WALD: So you heard her confess; is that right?
15 A. Yes.
16 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Let me ask you this: In your statement, you
17 said that half an hour before the military police came you had given the
18 keys to the (redacted). My question is: When was the last time
19 before that, before you gave her the keys, that you yourself had been in
20 the bus? Was it the same day or the night before or -- in other words,
21 when had you been in your own bus before you gave her the keys?
22 A. The previous day, at 2200, before I went to bed, I stopped by the
23 bus, took the cigarettes, locked the bus, and went to bed in the house,
24 because that night was cold. And (redacted) was not that afternoon
25 there, at all.
1 JUDGE WALD: I see. And so you went -- the bus looked fine when
2 you saw it at 10.00 at night. You didn't see anything unusual in the bus
3 or anything like that the last time you saw it at 10.00 the night before?
4 That's right; right? And so it wasn't until half an hour before the
5 police came the next day that you gave her the keys; correct?
6 A. Yes, it is.
7 JUDGE WALD: Okay. And within half an hour of the time that you
8 gave her the keys, the military -- Mr. Medic arrived and you went to the
9 bus together and you found all of the appliances in there; right?
10 A. Right.
11 JUDGE WALD: So it all sort of -- well, an ordinary person looking
12 at that would say it all happened in the time between you -- the time you
13 gave her the keys and the time that you went to the bus with Medic, all
14 within a half an hour or a little bit about that? Whatever happened
15 happened in that half an hour, between the time you gave her the keys and
16 the time you and Mr. Medic went back to the bus and found all the
17 appliances in there; is that right? I mean, if I have your story
19 A. Yes, you did understand it correctly. As I said, in the beginning
20 she arrived with a small truck.
21 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Now, were you in the habit of giving her the
22 keys to the bus often or was that an unusual or an isolated instance in
23 which you gave her the keys?
24 A. No. That was common, not only to her, but all the units. I was
25 bound to give them the keys, her included.
1 JUDGE WALD: I see. So my last question is: Just at this time,
2 either that day when you gave her the keys, or the previous night, had you
3 given the keys to anyone else?
4 A. No. No. I had the keys.
5 JUDGE WALD: All right. Thank you.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Judge Wald.
7 Mr. Kicanovic, we have no further questions for you, I believe.
8 Mr. Fila.
9 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] With your leave, Mr. President, I'm
10 afraid there is a misunderstanding, and with the Court's leave, I should
11 like to ask just one more question, if I may. The question is: When is
12 it that the witness heard first -- heard it first mentioned that he had
13 led a group which had gone to search (redacted)
14 (redacted)? When was it that he heard this the first time?
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But, Mr. Fila, this did not
16 derive from the Judges' questions.
17 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Yes, from Judge Riad's question if he
18 had heard what (redacted).
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Right. Very well. Ask your
21 Re-examined by Mr. Fila:
22 Q. So, Mr. Kicanovic, when did you first hear it mentioned that you
23 led a group of soldiers, that you (redacted)
25 A. I cannot remember the year. I just can't. I'm trying to recall
1 it, when was it that I heard that, and I just can't. So I cannot answer
2 your question which was the year when I heard that. And I heard it from
3 my colleagues who worked there. I said it was possible that it was 1993,
4 but it can't be because I went to Bijeljina in 1993 and there I met with
5 my colleagues in Bijeljina, because I was there until 1997. And one of my
6 colleagues told me that he had heard that, (redacted)-- and I
7 merely laughed at that and I said that was nonsense, but he said that he
8 heard that I had raped her and led a group of soldiers - but I never led a
9 group of soldiers in my life - that I had raped her and thrown her things
10 out of her flat.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.
12 Mr. Waidyaratne, do you have any questions? No. Very well.
13 Thank you very much.
14 We have no further questions for you, Mr. Kicanovic. Thank you
15 for coming. Will the usher please help you to leave the courtroom. Thank
16 you, and farewell.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, and all the best.
18 [The witness withdrew]
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Fila.
20 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have one more witness,
21 and he will be the fourth one. I don't have any more for today because I
22 expected the psychiatrist to turn up this morning. So could we have the
23 next witness brought in, please; Mr. Darko Glusac.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Madam Registrar. Do you
25 have any news regarding Dr. van den Bussche? That is his name, I
2 THE REGISTRAR: I've checked just as recent as 15 minutes ago, and
3 he still has not contacted the Tribunal.
4 JUDGE RIAD: Can he be contacted?
5 THE REGISTRAR: They have been trying to reach him. They've
6 called his office, they've called his mobile phone. He has not responded.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. In that case, we
8 shall hear Mr. Darko Glusac.
9 [The witness entered court]
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Glusac. Can
11 you hear me?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon. Yes, I can.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Will you now read
14 the solemn declaration which the usher will give you.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Should I read it now? Right.
16 WITNESS: DARKO GLUSAC
17 [Witness answered through interpreter]
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
19 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you. You may be seated.
21 Very well. You will now be answering questions that Mr. Fila will ask
23 Mr. Fila, please proceed.
24 Examined by Mr. Fila:
25 Q. Mr. Glusac, where and when were you born?
1 A. On the 28th of April, 1953, in Brcko.
2 Q. Do you have a nickname?
3 A. I don't.
4 Q. And where do you live now?
5 A. In Prijedor.
6 Q. And where did you live during the war?
7 A. In Prijedor.
8 Q. What is your occupation?
9 A. Electrician.
10 Q. And your ethnicity?
11 A. Serb.
12 Q. And who are you affiliated with?
13 A. Serb.
14 Q. Before the war broke out, what was your name?
15 A. Mehmedovic.
16 Q. And how long was your name Adem Mehmedovic?
17 A. Until 1993.
18 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Could the usher now please take a
19 document to show the witness.
20 And Madam Registrar, could you please give us the number for the
21 document. The Prosecution has this document.
22 THE REGISTRAR: D32/3.
23 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Will you please have a look at this document, the second page, the
25 second page on our language. You have it -- do you have it?
1 A. Yes, yes. I have the original.
2 Q. Will you please tell us, what is this document? Yes, we need the
3 first page.
4 A. Shall I read this?
5 Q. Will you tell us, what is this document?
6 A. "Public Security Station Prijedor. In response to a request by
7 Adem Mehmedovic, in the administrative case of a change of personal name.
8 35(71) and 36(86) and Article 202, paragraph 1, of the Law on General
9 Administrative Procedure. Official Gazette of the Socialist Federal
10 Republic of Yugoslavia, number 47/86, issues the decision for the change
11 in the personal name of Adem Mehmedovic, son of Dervis, born on 28 April
12 1953, in Brcko, is hereby approved. In the future, the aforementioned
13 shall use the personal name of Darko Glusac."
14 Q. Thank you. We don't need you to read any further. Statement of
16 Mr. Glusac, are you married? Do you have any children?
17 A. Yes, I am married. I have three daughters. I am married. I have
18 three daughters and two grandchildren.
19 Q. Do you have any criminal record?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Now I should like to move on to another subject. But before that,
22 since when have you been living with your wife, that is, sharing your
24 A. September 1991.
25 Q. And when did you get married?
1 A. On the 10th of March, 1992 -- on the 10th of April.
2 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I apologise. I have only one copy of
3 this. Will the usher please show it to the witness, because this document
4 shows the date of marriage. We shall have it translated and then hand it
5 over. The witness brought the document with him; otherwise, we wouldn't
6 have had it.
7 Q. Mr. Glusac, will you please look at this document and tell us what
8 this is about.
9 A. This is --
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Madam Susan Somers.
11 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Your Honour. I would just like to make a
12 record objection to the fact that we have been here for an hour or so, and
13 if this document was available, there is a 67(C) invocation based on a
14 66(B) request made. So the Prosecutor has not been provided with
15 documents, and Mr. Fila is in violation of 67(C). Thank you.
16 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Ms. Susan Somers, but I
18 still do not know where we are and where we are getting to, because all
19 the witnesses -- almost all the witnesses have told us that they are
20 married, so on and so forth, but we have never seen a document. So now I
21 want to know what will this lead up to? Otherwise, we'll have to see. A
22 number of witnesses said, "I am married" and we never saw any of the
23 certificates, and this sufficed. So I just do not know what Mr. Fila
24 wants to do with this document. I do not know, and I still have to wait
25 because I cannot really rule on this, Ms. Somers.
1 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, may I respond to you?
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Yes.
3 MS. SOMERS: Thank you. I fully understand Your Honour's point.
4 I just wanted to let the Court know that reciprocal discovery has, indeed,
5 been invoked, that there was ample time to provide the Prosecutor with a
6 copy or the original and we would have photocopied it, and that we object
7 to the fact that part of the bargain that the Defence has undertaken to
8 live up to has not been done, to our prejudice. Thank you.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We shall hear Mr. Fila, what he
10 has to say. But he told us that he received the document after the
11 witness came here.
12 Mr. Fila, can you answer Ms. Somers' question?
13 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Yes, this is very simple. I could be
14 quite contented with his statement about the date of his marriage. I got
15 this document when the witness arrived yesterday. In order to be able to
16 introduce it as evidence, I had to have it translated and accompany it
17 with the original, but I shall do it subsequently. When the document is
18 sent to me from Prijedor, then I shall have it translated and submitted.
19 Now I merely wanted to show him the document provisionally, for the time
20 being, only the document showing that he got married and that that
21 happened in April 1992. That is the sole purpose of this document, that
22 he got married on the 10th of April, 1992. This document serves no other
23 purpose. I am not asking the witness to tell us anything else about this
24 document except to show that he was married and the date that he was
25 married on.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Fila, but why do you
2 think it is necessary to produce this document with this witness and you
3 did not feel such a need in regard to other witnesses?
4 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Because a witness, a female witness
5 mentioned this gentleman with regard to --
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Proceed.
7 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Witness Glusac, will you tell us, what is this document? Will you
9 read out the name of your wife and the date of your marriage.
10 A. The document is a marriage certificate issued in 1992. It was on
11 the 10th of April, 1992. Adem Mehmedovic; Dragica Nemrova.
12 Q. Mr. Glusac, do you therefore maintain that as of September 1991
13 and April 1992, that you lived together and in wedlock with the lady whose
14 name you read out, as your wife?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Now I should like to draw your attention to an individual whose
17 (redacted). Do you know her? If so, since when, and how did you
18 come to know her?
19 A. (redacted)
22 Q. What did you do? What did she do?
23 A. (redacted).
24 Q. How would you assess her as a personality? What is your
25 experience of her?
1 A. I have had a bad experience, but at that time it didn't seem -- it
2 wasn't that important. She is not -- she was always ready to do something
3 underhand, intrigues and things of that kind. She wasn't really a very
4 upright sort of person.
5 We were in a cafe and my jacket was missing, and I had in my
6 jacket, how shall I put it, what's it called, I had my chequebook there.
7 My chequebook with all the cheques was in my jacket and I didn't know
8 where my jacket had disappeared to. Later on, when these cheques turned
9 up signed, filled in, I learnt who had taken them and the jacket. But we
10 didn't -- I didn't take the matter any further. I had to return the money
11 over a period of months, but they weren't such large sums that I couldn't
12 do it from my salary.
13 But that wasn't the first time either, matters related to her.
14 She was no kind of person -- not a proper sort of person. We didn't have
15 any -- we didn't socialise, we weren't friends, or we didn't see each
16 other outside work.
17 Q. In the course of your life in 1991 and 1992, did you ever live
18 with (redacted), in wedlock or out of wedlock?
19 A. No, and I never saw her then. During 1991/1992 I didn't see her
20 at all.
21 Q. Did you expect a child with her?
22 A. What do you mean, with her? With (redacted)? Of course not. I was a
23 married man. I had children.
24 Q. Do you know that on one occasion she said that you were married to
1 A. Well, people can say anything they like. You can say anything you
2 like but the truth comes out.
3 Q. On oath you state that you never lived with her, you were never
4 married to her or had a child with her or expected a child by her.
5 A. No. God forbid, heaven forbid. No, no.
6 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I have no
7 further questions.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What about the other Defence
9 counsel? Would anybody like to ask any questions? I see negative signs
10 coming from them. Very well.
11 Ms. Susan Somers has the floor.
12 MS. SOMERS: If the Chamber is minded to take a lunch break for
13 the 1.00 normal time period, I would request that we do so five minutes
14 early, if it does not throw the Chamber's schedule off, because I will
15 need some time with this witness.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. I think we will take a
17 lunch break now because it's more or less lunchtime anyway.
18 I should like to ask the usher to escort the witness out of the
19 courtroom before we take a lunch break.
20 Mr. Fila.
21 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, I have nothing to say
22 in that regard. But I should like to ask for the psychiatrist to be
23 called; otherwise, we're going to lose time because I have no further
24 witnesses for today.
25 [The witness stands down]
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. As you know, it is very
2 difficult to catch psychiatrists sometimes. But we're going to do our
3 best, Mr. Fila.
4 I see Ms. Somers on her feet. Would you like to add anything,
5 Ms. Somers?
6 MS. SOMERS: I'm sorry. No, Your Honour. It was pursuant to the
7 comment whenever the psychiatrist arrives, if the Court is still minded to
8 hear him.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Without further ado, let
10 us take our 50-minute lunch break.
11 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.58 p.m.
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the
14 English and French transcripts.
1 --- On resuming at 1.53 p.m.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated.
3 [The witness takes the stand]
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers, your witness
5 for the cross-examination.
6 Mr. Glusac, you will now be answering questions put to you by
7 Madam Prosecutor.
8 Cross-examined by Ms. Somers:
9 Q. Sir, you were born a Muslim, were you not?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And your father's name is Dervis; is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And he had the nickname of Dedo, a very typical Muslim nickname;
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And your mother is Zineta, or have I got that wrong?
17 A. Zineta. Zineta, Z-i.
18 Q. You have a brother Mesud, also a Muslim; correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Mesud is a Muslim name, is it not?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Mesud is married to a Serb, is he not?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. He is not living in Bosnia any more; is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Did he change his first name and his last name to reflect a Serb
3 A. No, he did not.
4 Q. Do you have sisters?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Their names, please.
7 A. Jasna and Sahima.
8 Q. Those are Muslim names, are they not?
9 A. I don't know. Probably they are.
10 Q. They are both married to Serbs, are they not?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And they live still in the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina; is
13 that correct?
14 A. Yes, yes.
15 Q. You were married, whether de facto or legally, to a woman named
16 Duska or Dusanka, were you not, at one time?
17 A. Yes, I was legally married to her and I had two daughters with
19 Q. What was Dusanka or Duska's maiden name, please, or the name she
20 kept for her last name?
21 A. She kept my surname, but her maiden name was Vujicic. But she
22 kept Mehmedovic, the surname.
23 Q. So she was a Serb with a Serb first name and she was willing to
24 take a Muslim surname, last name; is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. What are the names of the children by that marriage?
2 A. The older one is Edita and the younger one is Zana.
3 Q. Their dates of birth, please, both of them.
4 A. The 23rd of September, 1977 is the older one, and the younger one
5 is -- she's ten years younger.
6 Q. What were the dates of your marriage to Duska, please?
7 A. 1976. I think it was March.
8 Q. That's when you were married.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. When did you terminate that marriage? Where, please, and when?
11 A. In 1989, in Prijedor.
12 Q. Were you still friendly at the time the marriage was terminated?
13 Did you have an amicable termination of marriage?
14 A. She disappeared, quite simply, and never came back to those
15 parts. She went to Australia.
16 Q. Did you formally divorce her with legal proceedings?
17 A. Yes. Yes, I did.
18 Q. When and where exactly, please?
19 A. Well, as I thought the marriage had been severed, it was only
20 later on when I wanted to marry my present wife that I learnt that we were
21 not actually legally divorced, and that's when I took up those proceedings
22 and legally divorced, and that was in Prijedor. The decision to divorce
23 my first marriage was done in Prijedor. I have the document, but I
24 haven't got it with me.
25 Q. What month and year, please?
1 A. I think it was the beginning of 1992, when I had to get all the
2 other papers for my marriage, for my marriage to the second wife, on the
3 10th of April. And before that, I started collecting up these various
4 papers and documents, and it was then that I actually learnt that I was
5 not legally divorced from my first wife, so I took up the matter.
6 Q. But you were nonetheless having a relationship with Dragica - that
7 is her name, correct? - and that included a sexual relationship?
8 A. With whom?
9 Q. Dragica.
10 A. Well, I lived with her from September 1991.
11 Q. While you were still not divorced --
12 A. It was out of wedlock, in 1991. From September 1991 we lived out
13 of wedlock and we never separated after that.
14 Q. Your relationship with Dragica was out of wedlock; however, your
15 relationship with Duska was still in wedlock. Correct?
16 A. Well, yes, it was, but I didn't see her then, from 1989. She
17 disappeared, as I said, from those parts, those regions, and that's how it
18 was. I didn't bother getting an official divorce until I had met Dragica
19 and wanted to marry her, and then I realised that I wasn't officially,
20 legally divorced.
21 Q. Now, Dragica's name on your marriage certificate that has been
22 presented to us today is -- and I'm afraid it's not very legible. Can you
23 tell me the maiden name was that she was using?
24 A. Nemrova.
25 Q. She had been married also, hadn't she? What was the name of her
2 A. Yes, that's right.
3 Q. What was Dragica's husband's name, please? Tell us.
4 A. Just a minute. Let me try to remember. Do you need the surname
5 as well?
6 Q. Well, I think it would be helpful to have both.
7 A. I can't remember, but the surname was Kovacevic. I can't remember
8 the first name. The last name was Kovacevic.
9 Q. Now, wasn't the last name really Glusac, and wasn't she married to
10 a person called Darko Glusac, who was your very close friend? Isn't that
11 correct? Isn't that the real story?
12 A. No. Her mother was Glusac, and she took that surname and changed
13 her surname, which was when I adopted the surname Glusac and the name
15 Q. And Darko was her husband, wasn't he? Her husband was Darko?
16 A. No.
17 Q. What was her husband's name?
18 A. Well, I don't know. As I say, I know his surname was Kovacevic.
19 It was quite certainly Kovacevic, but I can't remember his first name.
20 Q. Darko or Dragan Glusac was killed in 1992 in Gradacac. That was
21 her husband, wasn't it?
22 A. No. That was her cousin and a good friend of mine since
23 childhood. That was her mother's brother's child.
24 Q. The person named Darko Glusac was a cousin of your wife's and was
25 a very good friend of yours; is that right?
1 A. Dragan Glusac. And my name, the name I took over, was Darko
3 Q. And you chose to take over this name for what reason? What was
4 the reason you gave to the authorities?
5 A. Well, they didn't ask you for a reason, for a precise reason.
6 Q. Well, now, I think that the paper says that you have to have some
7 type of reason, because it says, according to certain statutes that are in
8 the official gazettes, and in fact --
9 A. Well, quite simply, what you do is you write a request saying that
10 you wish to change your first and last name, and if there are no legal
11 charges brought against you, as there were not against me, then you would
12 be allowed to do so. And it is provided for by the law that you can
13 change your first and last name.
14 Q. What motivated you to completely adopt a new identity, not just a
15 first name change, not just a last name change, but a first and last name
17 A. Because I stayed on living in those parts, in that territory,
18 despite the war that had broken out at the time. I have children there, I
19 have grandchildren there. I didn't want to leave the area.
20 Q. Were you worried about the Serbs?
21 A. Well, no. I was always a normal man and I always differentiated
22 between people as being good or bad. I did that the whole of my life.
23 Q. You served in the army of the Republika Srpska, didn't you, in the
24 43rd Motorised Brigade, did you not?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Did you take on the Orthodox religion?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Having been born a Muslim male, I assume you were circumcised.
4 What did you do about that?
5 A. What's that go to do with this? What's that got to do with this
6 whole thing?
7 Q. You have indicated to us you've taken on an entire Serb identity,
8 and that would be inconsistent with being a Serb, would it not?
9 A. That's right. I took on the Serb identity.
10 Q. But you made no physical changes; is that what you're telling us?
11 A. Well, no, I didn't take on any physical changes.
12 Q. How many children did you have with Duska? If I've asked you
13 that, I'm sorry. I may have gotten lost in my own numbers of children.
14 You had how many children with Duska?
15 A. Two children.
16 Q. And how many with Dragica?
17 A. I have a four-and-a-half-year-old daughter now.
18 Q. In 1992 how many children did you have?
19 A. Two.
20 Q. And they were how old in 1992?
21 A. My younger daughter was six and my older daughter was 16. 2001,
22 well, that would make it roughly that. Yes, my younger child was going to
23 nursery school. She was about six.
24 Q. Excuse me. I'm sorry to have cut you off. Dragica left for
25 Germany in 1992, didn't she? She was gone, wasn't she, for a period of
2 A. No. We never separated from 1991 onwards, right up until 1995.
3 We were given nicknames, Lolek and Bolek, from the cartoons, you know.
4 The whole of Prijedor knew us as Lolek and Bolek. Everybody, the
5 refugees, everybody. We never ever separated again. We went to the
6 battlefield together. We never separated.
7 Q. You lived on what street in 1992, please?
8 A. Preradovic 1.
9 Q. Among your neighbours was an individual whose name (redacted)
10 (redacted), is that correct, also having lived on that street at that
12 A. No. Well, the street is, but it's the last part of the street,
13 some 500 metres away from me.
14 Q. What did you do from April 1992 to August 1992? Where were you,
16 A. I was at home. I didn't go away from Prijedor anywhere. I didn't
17 leave Prijedor until September, which is when I went to Gradacac. That
18 was the first time I went. Perhaps to Banja Luka I would go in the course
19 of the day and come back, but that's all.
20 Q. The last time you saw the (redacted)
22 A. No. Well, I don't actually know when she was arrested. I saw
23 her -- the last time I saw her was in 1989.
24 Q. Are you suggesting that you did not have sexual relations with
25 this woman and, without knowing it, made her pregnant? Is that what
1 you're telling us?
2 A. Well, I said that was not true, and I don't know what led her to
3 mention it, to say that. That's what I would like to know too.
4 MS. SOMERS: I would ask the Chamber for appropriate redactions.
5 Q. How is it that you were -- you were still a Muslim during those
6 days, weren't you?
7 A. Well, let me tell you one thing as far as religion is concerned:
8 I'm an atheist myself, but you have to adapt yourself to the circumstances
9 and times --
10 Q. And you adapted yourself by becoming --
11 A. -- the environment.
12 Q. You adapted yourself by taking on a Serb name. Now, you did tell
13 the Chamber at the beginning of your testimony that you used the ethnicity
14 of Serb. Tell me, please, in what document is that particular change
15 recorded. It does not mention any ethnicity on the exhibit which counsel
16 presented, it just mentions a change of name. What document made you a
18 A. On the basis of my ID card, and because there's a questionnaire
19 you fill out and it says nationality. You can be one kind, another kind,
20 or the third kind.
21 Q. So you can become anything you want to become; is that correct?
22 A. Of course.
23 Q. Are you suggesting that the thousands of people who were interned
24 in the Omarska camp could have become Serbs if they wanted to become
25 Serbs? Is that what you're telling us?
1 A. That's not what I said. You've gone too far, you've taken that
2 point too far. I personally changed my name. Nobody made me; it was my
3 own free will. I wanted to change my name and I did so. I conformed with
4 the legal provisions for that particular act and changed my name.
5 Q. Explain, please, how you did not end up in a detention facility
6 during those months when most of the Muslims from that area did.
7 A. Well, at that time I had been mobilised, and anybody that wanted
8 to go could have gone. They started sending us -- that is to say, you
9 could go and dig trenches and you would be shot at from the other side;
10 take up a rifle and go up to the front lines. Better than being targeted
11 by someone, being a target for somebody's rifle.
12 Q. Just so I understand, you were mobilised into the army of
13 Republika Srpska at that time; is that right?
14 A. I think it was the Yugoslav People's Army at that time, because
15 Republika Srpska didn't exist then yet.
16 Q. This was the army, though, that was fighting -- or that assisted
17 in interning/detaining the Muslims and other non-Serbs in Omarska camp,
18 the same army; is that correct?
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila.
20 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] The many objections that Ms. Somers
21 made to the historical part of my opening statement, it is a pity that she
22 did not listen to that same opening statement, because she would know the
23 difference between the JNA and the Yugoslav People's Army and the Serbian
24 province and the army of Republika Srpska. There's a time difference.
25 Omarska is 1992. What the man is talking about is 1991. So that is one
1 year earlier, it's a year's difference.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers.
3 MS. SOMERS: Yes, Your Honour, I would want to refresh the
4 Chamber's recollection that I asked the witness what he was doing between
5 April and I think it was August of 1992. Although I appreciate counsel's
6 recommendation, I certainly would like to know about that time period, and
7 that's why I'm talking about the VRS.
8 Q. If you could please tell us, were you serving in the army of
9 Republika Srpska during 1992?
10 A. From September 1992.
11 Q. Your first wife, Duska - maybe she wasn't your first wife but your
12 whatever number wife, Duska - worked for the MUP in Prijedor, did she not?
13 A. Yes, for a time.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers, are you asking
15 the witness as to the number of wives he has had? Because if you are
16 asking the question, ask it. If not, abstain from commentary, please.
17 But continue.
18 MS. SOMERS: Yes, of course. I would like --
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And I should like to remind you
20 of the time.
21 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, yes.
22 Q. Please tell us, all in all, how many times have you had a partner
23 you have considered your wife, whether de facto or legally? In your
25 A. Twice.
1 Q. And the last -- and the one we refer to as Duska is the one who
2 worked in the MUP in Prijedor.
3 A. Yes.
4 MS. SOMERS: One second.
5 [Prosecution counsel confer]
6 MS. SOMERS: Thank you. No further questions. Thank you very
7 much, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila, any additional
10 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, thank you.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
12 Judge Fouad Riad, do you have any questions?
13 Questioned by the Court:
14 JUDGE RIAD: Good afternoon, Mr. Glusac.
15 A. Good afternoon, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE RIAD: Just to understand more your testimony, you said that
17 you got a new identity because that was the safest way to live in Serbia;
18 that was right?
19 A. Right.
20 JUDGE RIAD: Was it also necessary for you to join the 1st
21 Motorised Brigade of Republika Srpska? Was it also for the sake of
23 A. Well, no, I was mobilised, regularly mobilised.
24 JUDGE RIAD: You were regularly mobilised.
25 A. As I was military-able.
1 JUDGE RIAD: Now, I understood that (redacted) lived 500 metres
2 away from your house, in the same street.
3 A. Yes.
4 JUDGE RIAD: How much was your contact with this lady? Did you
5 meet? Did you visit each other socially?
6 A. No. Chance meetings. I worked outside Prijedor. Energopetrol
7 was the company's name. Sometimes when I would be at the bus stop, I
8 would see her passing by and we would say Hi to one another, or we might
9 meet by chance, be it the same cafe, or things like that. But we never
10 chatted. We would just say Hello to each other.
11 JUDGE RIAD: So you don't think of any reason why she would have
12 any pretensions or would like to spread rumours concerning you as being --
13 A. Well, that's why I'm here, to learn the truth. I would really
14 like to know. I would be interested in knowing.
15 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.
16 A. You're welcome.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Judge Fouad Riad.
18 Madam Judge Wald has the floor.
19 JUDGE WALD: Mr. Glusac, you told us about an incident in which
20 (redacted) took cheques, you said, out of your jacket in a cafe and cashed
21 them and it caused you great inconvenience. Now, how did you and she
22 happen to be in that cafe? Were you there with her or did she come in to
23 the cafe from outside and take your jacket -- take it out of your jacket,
24 or how did that incident come about in the first place that you were
25 together in the cafe?
1 A. I dropped in at the cafe after work, on my way back for work, and
2 it's at the bus stop, actually. The bus stop is outside. I met a
3 colleague of mine, her colleague and my colleague, and we were talking and
4 it was hot and I took my jacket off and put it over the back of my chair.
5 And some time later -- that is to say, I went out to the WC several times,
6 and when I wanted to go home, I saw that my jacket was missing. I didn't
7 know who to accuse. And it was only once that the cheques were being
8 cashed that I realised who had done it, I learnt who had done it.
9 JUDGE WALD: And that was because she signed the cheques or what?
10 How did you learn it? I mean, you didn't see her take it, you didn't see
11 her in the cafe; right?
12 A. No, I didn't see her, but as Prijedor is a very small town,
13 everybody knew me, Prijedor and all the surrounding parts. I did the job
14 that I did and people knew me. So one of my colleagues said from a shop
15 that he had cashed -- that somebody had paid with my cheques, and that is
16 to say, she knew him and she was able to cash the cheques; otherwise she
17 wouldn't have been able to, without my signature, because it was a shop,
18 not a bank.
19 JUDGE WALD: So just so I get this straight: She took your
20 cheques and was able to cash them by signing them herself, by signing your
21 signature, or without any signature?
22 A. Well, when you get the cheques, you sign them all and then would
23 just fill in the amount, the amount of money, the sum of money. So I
24 usually signed them all and then the tradesman would just jot in the
25 actual sum, like when you get them and they're already stamped in the
2 JUDGE WALD: And so your acquaintance, the shopkeeper who told you
3 about that, that she had brought at least one in, he didn't question it at
4 the time; he just went ahead and gave her the money?
5 A. Yes, because she said that I had asked him to cash the cheques for
6 her. That's how it was. And then he checked with me later on, only later
7 on, and that's when the whole thing came into view.
8 JUDGE WALD: And there were several cheques; more than one? This
9 same thing happened with others?
10 A. I don't quite understand your question.
11 JUDGE WALD: Well, I think -- I thought in your statement that you
12 talked about more than one cheque, that she took several cheques, not just
13 one at the time; is that right? And she cashed --
14 A. Yes. Yes, that's right.
15 JUDGE WALD: And she did this cashing with different shopkeepers
16 around the town? Go ahead.
17 A. Only in two shops.
18 JUDGE WALD: Okay. And both of them went ahead and cashed it for
19 her and then told you about it later; is that right?
20 A. One of the shopkeepers told me, and then later on I learnt from
21 the other one as well, because he would come to the cashier of the company
22 and then they would check it out, go through the cheques, and that's how
23 it came to light.
24 JUDGE WALD: Did you ever go up to her when you saw her and tell
25 her, accuse her, or ask her why she did it?
1 A. Of course I did. I intervened straight away. She said she would
2 pay me back later on. I would ask her several times, and then our
3 colleagues from the company said, "Oh, let it go," and that's how they
4 covered it up. It was I think at the end of 1989.
5 JUDGE WALD: Right. So basically, when you confronted her, she
6 didn't deny it; she just said, "I'll get you back the money," but she
7 never did. Is that right?
8 A. That's right, yes.
9 JUDGE WALD: Thank you.
10 A. You're welcome.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Judge Wald.
12 Mr. Glusac, between the first and the second cheques used to pay
13 stuff, how much did elapse between that?
14 A. I think it was on the same day that she used those cheques in two
15 different shops but on the same day, except that I cannot give you the
16 exact date. One can find that. If you need it, I can do that.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.
18 Mr. Glusac, we have no other questions for you. Therefore, thank you very
19 much for coming, and I wish you a happy return to your home. Thank you.
20 The usher will now escort you from the courtroom.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.
22 [The witness withdrew]
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, do you have any
24 news regarding van den Bussche?
25 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. President, I do not have any new information
1 other than the fact that the Victims and Witnesses Section has tried him
2 periodically throughout the day and has been leaving messages on his
3 mobile phone. I've also been informed that the one woman who is in charge
4 of this particular case, Sophia Swart, gave him all of her personal
5 numbers so that he could contact her, and he has not done so.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.
7 Yes, Mr. Fila. I see you want to say something.
8 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I want to apologise, even though I do
9 not see that we are responsible for this, for the fact that we shall lose
10 half an hour of your precious time, but over the weekend we were promised
11 that the gentleman would be here at 9.00 sharp, and, with Ms. Somers, we
12 agreed to start with him. But as you see -- and so the only thing I ask
13 is I wish to tender D32/3A and B, that is, the translation of it, that it
14 be admitted into evidence. These are the certificates on the change of
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. I think that it
17 nevertheless has to be marked and given and that the marriage certificate
18 also needs a number. I believe it will be D33/3; is that correct?
19 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] As regards the other document --
20 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour, it is D33/3.
21 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] As regards the other document. But in
22 line with your decision, I would rather not tender it until I bring the
23 original marriage certificate from Prijedor. So I would rather not have
24 it admitted. And then I will bring the certificate and show you the
25 original and then tender the copies. If I get it, and I'm sure I will,
1 that is how it will be. Otherwise, if I do not get it, then I will not
2 tender it, because in my country a document like this would not be
3 admitted into evidence.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. So first we need to
5 identify the document and then we shall see whether it will be admitted or
7 Ms. Somers, yes. Can we hear your opinion on document D32/3 and
8 document D33/3.
9 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, D32/3, the Prosecution has no objection
10 to the admission. Mr. Fila, on the other document, himself expressed some
11 reservation, and perhaps if the Chamber has no objection, so that his
12 reservations are alleviated, I would ask if we could just perhaps wait,
13 and then if it turns out to be okay, I would have no objection at that
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. So document 32/3 is
16 admitted and the document D33/3 we shall wait for the results of
17 Mr. Fila's efforts and then we shall see. Ms. Somers, sorry, if -- and
18 also, if the Prosecutor will not have any objections, it is highly
19 probable that the Chamber will admit the document.
20 Right. Very well. I do not think we have any more witnesses
22 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I apologise. I really thought that
23 four of them would be enough to fill the day, and it's half an hour still
24 evidently available.
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Is there anything
1 else that you would like to raise within the time that still remains?
2 Ms. Somers, she has a proposal, I believe, to make.
3 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Your Honour. I would like to remind the
4 Chamber that the Zigic Defence team indicated in court last week that it
5 would provide a revised witness list, I presume along with a motion to
6 make such a list to the Chamber. And I'll have to speak with counsel
7 about some of the specificity in the statements, but we would need
8 certainly the list no later than close of business today. The case will
9 begin, I believe, the 26th, if the Court schedule is still holding in
10 light of the -- you know, starting up with Krstic again.
11 The second matter - and I don't know the Chamber's timetable - I
12 know that there were some outstanding admissions issues on certain
13 documents and certain decisions regarding exhibits. I wondered if we
14 might make an inquiry of the Chamber as to when -- or if we might be
15 hearing from the Chamber this week on those matters that had been the
16 subject of previous Status Conferences. That's two.
17 And the third one I would ask for just a second of private session
18 just to make sure that a matter that I raised during cross-examination was
19 clearly registered with the registry.
20 So an order of things would be Zigic, possibility of knowing about
21 decisions, and then the private session matter.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. So I think there are
23 several questions. The first one has to be taken up with Mr. Stojanovic.
24 Mr. Stojanovic, you were not here last week, but Mr. - let me just
25 see - Deretic announced that Mr. Zigic's Defence would be submitting a
1 revised list of witnesses. Could you please tell us, Mr. Stojanovic?
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your
3 Honours. Yes, we maintain daily contact and we have submitted -- we
4 submitted the list today at 11.40, to be quite precise.
5 If I may avail myself of this opportunity, I should like to ask
6 about the schedule in the beginning of April, because I think that my
7 learned friends could not really help me. Is the first week of April ours
8 or will it be devoted to the Krstic case? This is my question. Thank
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Stojanovic, you take me by
11 surprise because I do not have the timetable with me here. But what I
12 told Mr. Deretic was that the schedule did not change with regard to the
13 announcement. What I remember, we envisaged three weeks for Mr. Zigic's
15 But I believe that now Madam Registrar will perhaps help me, if
16 she can. Which are the three weeks?
17 THE REGISTRAR: I'm trying to locate it in the calendar. I just
18 opened it, if you'll give me -- I'll give you the exact dates. I have on
19 my calendar Monday, April 2nd to Friday, April 6th is Krstic, and Monday,
20 April 9th is Kvocka.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, I'm not asking
22 you which are the dates set out for the Krstic case. I was asking you
23 about the dates of the Zigic case, so only the dates for the Zigic case.
24 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Right. It seems that we are
1 wasting time. What I told Mr. Deretic last week was that no changes had
2 been made regarding the weeks set aside for this case. Do you have any
3 doubts, any questions about this matter, Mr. Stojanovic?
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think it was
5 originally said that we would have four weeks in a row, that is, there was
6 the alternative, the 19th or the 26th of March. Now I believe it is as of
7 the 26th.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, you are quite right. Now I
9 understand why you are uncertain. We shall check today and we shall let
10 you know tomorrow. Will that be all right, Mr. Stojanovic? We shall
11 confirm it tomorrow. Will that be all right?
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you very much.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I see that Mr. Krstan Simic is
14 using body language to say something. Are you trying to communicate
15 something to us, Mr. Simic?
16 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] No.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Well, for once then, I am
18 wrong. Thank you very much.
19 Very well. It seems to me there are no other matters. Oh, that
20 matter which Ms. Somers raised regarding the document. It is quite true
21 that there are several questions which arose from the Status Conference
22 held on the 20th of February. I'm not quite sure if that was the date.
23 But at any rate, we have prepared, I believe, not less than three
24 documents that will come out today. I believe that one has already been
25 filed and two more have to come out yet, and I believe they deal with your
2 Now you asked me for a private session to ask a question so can we
3 go into private session now. I do not know if Madam Registrar can contact
4 the technical booth.
5 [Private session]
13 Page 9120 redacted – private session
20 [Open session]
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. We shall adjourn for
22 today and we shall resume our work tomorrow at 9.20.
23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.45 p.m.,
24 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 13th day of
25 March, 2001, at 9.20 a.m.