Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9831

1 Friday, 30 March 2001

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.26 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning. Please be

6 seated.

7 Good morning, ladies and gentlemen; good morning to the technical

8 booth and the interpreters; good morning to the staff of the registry, the

9 Defence counsel, the Prosecution.

10 As you can see, we will be sitting with two Judges, only two of

11 us. I wanted to inform the parties: Judge Wald has another case to sit

12 in on, so unfortunately she is otherwise engaged in the services of the

13 Tribunal. We were not able to modify the calendar. As you know, we have

14 a very heavy schedule. I'm sure you will understand, and within the

15 frameworks of Rule 15 bis, we will sit in this way today.

16 We have one more witness for today. We're going to finish the

17 witness today and won't leave him for next week. So if necessary, we

18 shall even go on a little bit longer today, but I should like to appeal to

19 the parties to make full use of our time, and I hope we'll be able to end

20 by the end of the working day without having to prolong the sitting.

21 I think that, having said that, Mr. Deretic, we can now call the

22 witness, can we? Is that right?

23 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. We

24 fully agree with what you have just said and we should like to take

25 advantage of the occasion to say that we're going to call the last witness

Page 9832

1 on our list, and that witness will be Witness DD/6.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Usher, will you please have

3 the witness shown in.

4 [The witness entered court]

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness DD/6. Can

6 you hear me? Can you hear me?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Would you please read the solemn

9 declaration handed to you by the usher.


11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

13 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated. Try to get

15 yourself comfortable. Please approach the microphone. You're now going

16 to take a look at what is written on the piece of paper to see if it is

17 your name, and give us a yes or no answer, please.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. Very well. Thank you for

20 coming, Witness DD/6. We're going to refer to you in that way because

21 that is your protective measure. You will now be answering questions put

22 to you by Mr. Deretic.

23 Mr. Deretic, your witness.

24 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

25 Examined by Mr. Deretic:

Page 9833

1 Q. Witness DD/6, can you hear me?

2 A. Yes, I can.

3 Q. Could you give us your full name and -- no, I apologise. Could

4 you give us your full name and surname? No. I apologise once again. I

5 seem to have got it wrong. This is a protected witness, so may we move

6 into private session for a moment. And thank you to my learned colleagues

7 for cautioning me of that.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Let us move into private

9 session.

10 MS. SOMERS: Excuse me, Your Honour, may I just inquire: A

11 protected witness, but public, is that correct, in the sense of open

12 testimony? Will the blinds be ... Thank you. Excuse me for the

13 interruption.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Quite so. I will ask the

15 usher to raise the blinds.

16 THE REGISTRAR: We're in private session.

17 [Private session]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 9834

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [Open session]

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We are in open session, so

10 please proceed.

11 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Witness DD/6, do you know Zoran Zigic?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. How long have you known him?

15 A. I've known him for approximately 25 years.

16 Q. Do you know, prior to the war in Prijedor and the former

17 Bosnia-Herzegovina, what he did and where Zoran Zigic was?

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers.

19 MS. SOMERS: Excuse me, there has been a reference made to the

20 "former Bosnia-Herzegovina." I'd like to correct the record. There is

21 indeed a current Bosnia-Herzegovina which is a member state of the United

22 Nations, and I would ask that that reference be stricken or corrected.

23 Thank you.

24 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, may I clarify? When

25 it was the socialist republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, that is to say,

Page 9835

1 before the war. That's what I was referring to, and by the date and

2 agreement, a new state was established which internationally recognised

3 and which is now called the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers.

5 MS. SOMERS: With that clarification, I think it's acceptable, but

6 that was not what was said in the record, so thank you.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, but that is what I

8 understood from the beginning. I don't think we ought to turn the

9 courtroom into a forum for political debate, and that's what I understood:

10 Bosnia-Herzegovina before the conflict, which means a republic of the

11 ex-Yugoslavia. That's how I understood it, but thank you for clarifying

12 matters. I don't think, however, that we ought to turn this courtroom

13 into something else.

14 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Your Honour. That was not the intention,

15 it was just to make sure that there was a correction.

16 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Witness DD/6, after the war broke out, were you engaged in the

18 army of Republika Srpska on the territory of the former

19 Bosnia-Herzegovina; and if so, since when?

20 A. I was in the police force. I was the reserve police force

21 straight away, as soon as the takeover of power had taken place.

22 Q. Do you know when the Serbs took over power in Prijedor?

23 A. On the 30th of April, 1992.

24 Q. Do you know whether during this power takeover there were any

25 armed conflicts in Prijedor municipality?

Page 9836

1 A. No.

2 Q. Do you know when the attack on Prijedor took place?

3 A. On the 30th of May, 1992.

4 Q. Witness DD/6, do you happen to know, in view of the fact that you

5 stated something a moment ago, that from the takeover of power in Prijedor

6 you were in the reserve police force, that is to say, after the takeover

7 of power until the attack on Prijedor, were there any armed conflicts in

8 the Prijedor municipality area?

9 A. Yes, there were.

10 Q. Do you know which was the first armed excess during that time

11 frame?

12 A. Yes, I do.

13 Q. Do you know what happened?

14 A. One of my colleagues was killed in front of the Bijelo Dugme from

15 -- he was shot in the back for no reason at all.

16 Q. When you say colleague, do you mean a friend of yours, or do you

17 mean a colleague because you were both policemen?

18 A. Yes. We were both policemen, or militiamen, as we used to call

19 them.

20 Q. And what was the Bijelo Dugme you mentioned?

21 A. It's a cafe, a cafe bar, by the traffic lights, at a crossroads.

22 Q. Was that cafe in Prijedor?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did that event take place in front of the cafe or in the cafe

25 itself?

Page 9837

1 A. In front of the cafe.

2 Q. Do you know the name of that policeman who was killed?

3 A. I know his surname. It was Dzapa. I can't remember his name,

4 though.

5 Q. Do you know who killed him?

6 A. I just know the man's surname. He was a Muslim and his surname

7 was Ceric.

8 Q. Do you happen to know, after the attack on Prijedor, whether, on

9 the territory of Prijedor municipality, investigation centres were set up?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Can you enumerate those centres?

12 A. Yes, I can. They were Keraterm, Trnopolje, and Omarska.

13 Q. Did you personally have anything to do with any of those

14 investigation centres?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What was that? What were your links?

17 A. I was a guard in Keraterm.

18 Q. Do you remember when you arrived at Keraterm?

19 A. Between the 10th and 15th of June, thereabouts.

20 Q. Who assigned you to that post?

21 A. The commander who had been my commander up until then, Zivko

22 Knezevic.

23 Q. Could you tell us, please: What year did you arrive in Keraterm?

24 You said the 15th of June, but what year was that?

25 A. It was 1992.

Page 9838

1 Q. After you arrived at Keraterm, and you said you went there to be a

2 guard, where was your guard post, actually?

3 A. My guard post was at the entrance to Keraterm, that is to say, the

4 gate, by the gates.

5 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, with your permission,

6 I should like us -- I should like the usher to show -- to place a copy of

7 this photograph of Keraterm on the ELMO. And it is the only copy we have,

8 I'm afraid, but I should like to ask the witness some questions concerning

9 this photograph.

10 Q. Witness DD/6, does this photograph correspond to the Keraterm

11 compound and the premises there?

12 A. Well, I can't see anything indicated on this photograph. You said

13 "indicated."

14 Q. Can you see some facilities and features?

15 A. Well, yes, but it's difficult to find my way about it, because

16 it's taken from above. The photograph is taken from above.

17 Q. Would you take a look at the picture on the ELMO. Now, does this

18 photograph indicate the Keraterm compound?

19 A. Yes, mostly, I suppose.

20 Q. On this picture, do you see the Prijedor-Banja Luka road?

21 A. Yes.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic, I apologise for

23 interrupting, but we need a number for identifying this photograph.

24 Ms. Krystal, could you give us a number?

25 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. It will be D9/4.

Page 9839

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic, you have the

2 number, so if you mention the document again, would you please give us the

3 number. That facilitates our work. Please proceed.

4 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

5 Q. Witness, can you indicate on the photograph, with respect to the

6 road you have already pointed out, the direction of Prijedor and the

7 direction of Banja Luka.

8 A. Prijedor is here and Banja Luka is down here. It's a long way

9 away, but it's in this direction.

10 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I should now like to

11 ask the usher, with your permission, to provide the witness with a marker

12 pen for the witness to be able to indicate certain positions on this

13 picture.

14 Q. Could you put a "PD" on the Prijedor direction.

15 A. [Marks]

16 Q. And then the Banja Luka direction, would you put "BL" for that,

17 please.

18 A. [Marks]

19 Q. Thank you. Witness DD/6, on this picture, could you show us where

20 the entrance into the investigation centre of Keraterm was located.

21 A. [Marks]

22 Q. And could you put a "U" for ulaz, entrance.

23 A. [Marks]

24 Q. Thank you. Could you now indicate where your guard post was.

25 A. [Marks]

Page 9840

1 Q. Was there anything in that location?

2 A. Yes. There was a small hut or a kiosk. It was rather a large

3 one, but that was where our guard post was, by that hut.

4 Q. Could you place a "K" by the hut.

5 A. [Marks]

6 Q. Witness DD/6, can you tell us, as a guard, what were your duties

7 in Keraterm?

8 A. Well, we had a number of duties, but my main duties was to prevent

9 civilians to come to the detainees, that is to say, the people being

10 investigated. My second task was to lock and unlock the dormitories; and

11 the third duty which we did on occasion was to take individuals for

12 interrogation to the inspectors.

13 Q. Among other things, was it one of your duties to see to the

14 distribution of food to the detainees?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you happen to know who the people were who were detained in

17 this investigation centre?

18 A. Mostly Muslims and Croats who were brought there to be

19 interrogated, whether they had taken part in the attack, whether they had

20 done anything against the authorities, and in fact, to ascertain things

21 like that.

22 Q. The people that were brought to Keraterm, were they interrogated?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Where did that questioning take place?

25 A. In the premises on the first floor of Keraterm. I don't know how

Page 9841

1 to explain this to you.

2 Q. Could you show us on the ELMO, on the picture there, where those

3 premises were located exactly.

4 A. Well, you can't see it exactly, but the entrance was here. They

5 would go upstairs, and the rooms were over here. I can't quite see

6 because you see the roof on the picture, so I can't see behind the roof.

7 Q. When these detainees were interrogated, did anybody escort them to

8 the interrogation room?

9 A. Yes; always a guard.

10 Q. Were you one of the guards who escorted the detainees when they

11 went for questioning?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you know who interrogated those individuals?

14 A. They were inspectors but people I didn't know, so I can't really

15 say.

16 Q. Do you know where they were from?

17 A. I heard that they were from Prijedor and from Banja Luka, but

18 that's what people said. I can't say for sure myself.

19 Q. Do you know what happened to the detainees after they were

20 interrogated?

21 A. Yes, I do. Do you want me to tell you?

22 Q. Yes, please go ahead.

23 A. Well, this is how it was: We would bring the prisoner upstairs.

24 We got a list, and we would bring the detainees on that list, first one,

25 then the second, and then the third. We would bring them to the door, we

Page 9842

1 would knock on the door, open the door for the detainees to go in, then we

2 would close the door and wait outside.

3 Then the detainee would come out, he would give us a list, a piece

4 of paper to say where he was to be taken, whether Room 1 or 2. First of

5 all, it was 1 and 2, and then there were Rooms 1, 2, 3, and 4, but you

6 were told on this piece of paper where to take the detainee to afterwards.

7 Q. After the interrogations, do you know whether any of the

8 individuals were released, were allowed to go home?

9 A. Yes, they were.

10 Q. You said that you came to Keraterm between the 10th and 15th of

11 June, 1992, if I'm not mistaken?

12 A. Yes, that's right.

13 Q. When you arrived in Keraterm, did you see Zoran Zigic?

14 A. Yes, I did. The first day, straight away.

15 Q. Did you see him after that, during the following days?

16 A. I saw him once or twice.

17 Q. Witness DD/6, could you tell us what Zoran Zigic did in Keraterm?

18 A. He drove a minivan and he brought water and food. That was his

19 job there.

20 Q. Where was that water and food taken from to Keraterm?

21 A. I assume that it was brought from the barracks, but I'm not 100

22 per cent sure.

23 Q. Do you know whether Zoran was ever assisted by any of the

24 detainees when he would bring water and food?

25 A. No, I don't know anything about that. Perhaps only when he was

Page 9843

1 taking things out.

2 Q. When did you see Zoran Zigic for the first time, and when did you

3 see him after that; that is, when you would see him, do you remember how

4 he was dressed?

5 A. Yes, I do. He always wore the same kind of clothes, so I can

6 easily remember. He always had a camouflage uniform on and a red beret on

7 his head.

8 Q. When you would see him, when you saw him, was there anything

9 characteristic about him as well?

10 A. Yes. He had a bandage on his left arm -- on his left hand.

11 Q. Do you remember whether Zoran was armed on the occasion?

12 A. It depended. Sometimes he was, sometimes he wasn't.

13 Q. What kind of weapon did Zoran have when he was armed?

14 A. I think he had a pistol, probably a Scorpion, but it was a

15 handgun, a pistol.

16 Q. After you came to Keraterm and after you saw Zoran there, did you

17 speak to him?

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 Q. During those conversations, did Zoran tell you anything in

20 particular?

21 A. Yes. He told me that his hand hurt when he cleaned his weapon,

22 that he had problems using his hand.

23 Q. Do you know why he had a bandage on his hand?

24 A. I was told that, in a shooting incident, he lost his forefinger,

25 his index finger.

Page 9844

1 Q. During those several days when you saw Zigic, did you ever see him

2 riding a motorcycle?

3 A. Yes, I did.

4 Q. When you saw him, when you saw Zoran Zigic, how did he behave on

5 those occasions?

6 A. You would first hear him and then see him, because he always made

7 a lot of noise. I would first actually hear him and then saw him. It was

8 always the same.

9 Q. Who did he talk to within the Keraterm compound?

10 A. Everybody. He had a lot of friends amongst the police and the

11 military, and the detainees as well, so he talked to everybody.

12 Q. During that period of time, when you used to see him, did you ever

13 happen to see him beat anyone in the compound?

14 A. No, I did not.

15 Q. During those days, did you ever see Zoran Zigic come to Keraterm

16 during the night?

17 A. No, never.

18 Q. When were you on duty? Only during the day or during the night,

19 or both during the day and during the night?

20 A. It depended. I would first be on duty for 12 hours during the

21 day, and then the next day for 12 hours during the night. That's how it

22 happened. Those were the shifts. And then we would be 24 hours off.

23 Q. At the beginning of the testimony, you indicated that when you

24 arrived in Keraterm, you saw Zoran on that particular day, on two or three

25 other occasions. Did that happen during the following two or three days

Page 9845

1 or did you see him two or three times on that first day?

2 A. I cannot remember, but I think it was on that first -- on those

3 first two or three days.

4 Q. After that, did you see Zoran Zigic in Keraterm?

5 A. No, I did not.

6 Q. Witness DD/6, do you know the person by the name of Emsud

7 Bahonjic?

8 A. Yes, I do.

9 Q. Did you see him in Keraterm?

10 A. Yes, I did.

11 Q. Emsud Bahonjic, was he brought to the camp before or after your

12 arrival in Keraterm?

13 A. When I came to Keraterm, he was already there.

14 Q. Where was he put up? In which room?

15 A. Room 1.

16 Q. At the time of your arrival in Keraterm, how many rooms were used

17 to accommodate detainees?

18 A. Two.

19 Q. Were they marked with numbers?

20 A. Yes, they were; Room 1 and Room 2.

21 Q. Would you be so kind and indicate to us on the photograph where

22 those two rooms were located.

23 A. Here is the Room 1, and then Room 2.

24 Q. Could you please mark them with numbers.

25 A. Of course.

Page 9846

1 Q. A moment ago you stated that later on some additional rooms were

2 used.

3 A. Yes. Number 3 and 4.

4 Q. Do you know when was that?

5 A. I don't know. Probably after the attack on Prijedor, after what

6 happened in Kozarac, but I'm not sure about that.

7 Q. Could you indicate on the photograph where Rooms number 3 and 4

8 were.

9 A. Yes, I can.

10 Q. Do you know whether Emsud Bahonjic had a nickname while he was in

11 Keraterm?

12 A. I didn't know that. I didn't have many contacts with him. I knew

13 him, Emsud Bahonjic, but I know that he was arrested when he carried a

14 rifle called Singapurka, and that's why they called him Singapurac.

15 Q. When did you meet Emsud Bahonjic?

16 A. Immediately after my arrival, a day or two days later.

17 Q. Since we cannot see your answer on the record, let me repeat the

18 question: When did you learn about his nickname?

19 A. Only after the events in Keraterm, after everything was over.

20 Q. How did you meet Emsud Bahonjic?

21 A. When I arrived in Keraterm during those first days, a Muslim came,

22 and he said that he was ill, that somebody was ill. And I went to see

23 what it was all about and I saw him holding his stomach, and he was taken

24 to hospital on that occasion.

25 Q. Can you remember when that happened in relation to your arrival in

Page 9847

1 Keraterm? Was that on the same day or later?

2 A. During those first three days.

3 Q. Do you know how long Emsud stayed in hospital?

4 A. He left while I was on duty, while my shift was on duty, and then

5 when I arrived to do my night shift, I found him there again.

6 Q. When he was taken to hospital, do you know what time it was? Was

7 that during the day or the evening?

8 A. It was sometime between 11.00 and 12.00, around noon.

9 Q. Do you know whether Emsud Bahonjic was beaten in Keraterm?

10 A. Yes, he was.

11 Q. Was he beaten before he was taken to hospital?

12 A. I don't think so.

13 Q. Do you know what happened to him?

14 A. When he came back from hospital, he was called out on a daily

15 basis. He was taken out every day and beaten up by whoever came from the

16 outside. There were groups of people, including soldiers, and nothing

17 could be done about it. It could not have been prevented.

18 Q. How long did it last; one day, several days?

19 A. Two or three days. Three days, I believe. I think that he was

20 found dead on the third day.

21 Q. Did you see Zoran Zigic in Keraterm during those days?

22 A. No, not at all.

23 Q. Do you know what happened with Emsud Bahonjic?

24 A. I know that he tried to escape and that he was found in the

25 pallets between the military police facility and Keraterm.

Page 9848

1 Q. On this photograph, could you show us where those pallets were

2 situated? Where were they?

3 A. The pallets were here. That is where the military police was.

4 That was their main building. This is where they had a guard post, and

5 those pallets were stacked one on top of the other here.

6 Q. Could you please slow down for the interpretation.

7 A. So the pallets were placed in the shape of letter "A", like this,

8 and he was found there, near those pallets.

9 Q. Could you mark them with letter "P", "P" and "L", please.

10 A. "PL" for pallet?

11 Q. Yes, please.

12 A. This whole row here.

13 Q. At what part of the day this incident took place? When was he

14 found on the pallet?

15 A. As I was locking up the dormitory in the evening, half past 9 or

16 10.00, it was my duty to lock the dormitories. I went to dormitory number

17 one, and the person who was in charge of Room 1 --

18 Q. Could you slow down, please, Witness.

19 A. The person who was in charge of that room told me that one

20 detainee was missing. So I locked up all the dormitories and informed the

21 duty officer about his absence, and the duty officer informed the

22 commander of the investigation centre about that, and later on, we were

23 told to search the premises of the centre.

24 Since the TO was already there - they were the ones who provided

25 security during the night - it was their task to search the premises, and

Page 9849

1 we were told to remain on our guard posts and watch.

2 Q. Could you tell us what you mean by "TO"?

3 A. The Territorial Defence of the Prijedor town.

4 Q. Was it a special unit which was located in Prijedor?

5 A. It was a unit which consisted mainly of elderly people who were

6 not able to go to the front line, of 50 years old and more.

7 Q. Did you as a guard take part in that search for Emsud Bahonjic?

8 A. Yes, I did.

9 Q. After he was found near the pallets, Emsud Bahonjic, what happened

10 afterwards? What happened with him?

11 A. When I realised it was him, I went back to my guard post, and the

12 members of the territorial guard remained there and started beating him

13 up.

14 Q. Did you actually see the members of the TO beating Bahonjic?

15 A. I saw them when they hit the first time, and then I turned

16 around. I couldn't, I couldn't watch it. This is something I cannot

17 watch.

18 Q. Why as a guard you did not intervene?

19 A. Well, I could have lied down next to him. That was the only thing

20 I could have done.

21 Q. Did you have authority, were you able to prevent any such

22 misconduct of the members of the Territorial Defence within the Keraterm

23 compound?

24 A. We had authority during the day; however, during the night, they

25 were in charge of security. I already explained to you what our task was.

Page 9850

1 We had nothing to do with that.

2 Q. Do you know what happened with Bahonjic?

3 A. When they came back, the members of the Territorial Defence, they

4 passed by the fence where I was standing. I heard them saying, "This one

5 is finished," something to that effect.

6 Q. Later on, did you, did you go over to that place?

7 A. No, I didn't.

8 Q. Until what time were you on duty that night?

9 A. It lasted until 6 or 7.00 in the morning.

10 Q. Did you know at that point in time what had happened with

11 Bahonjic?

12 A. No. It was only later on that I heard that he had died.

13 Q. Witness DD/6, do you know an individual by the name of Drago

14 Tokmadzic?

15 A. Yes, I do.

16 Q. How do you know Drago Tokmadzic?

17 A. When I arrived in Keraterm, I found him there, and I was told that

18 he was a dangerous individual and that I should not go near him.

19 Q. After you arrived in Keraterm, was Drago Tokmadzic already there,

20 or was he brought there after you arrived in Keraterm?

21 A. No. I found him there.

22 Q. Do you remember how he was dressed?

23 A. He wore a police uniform with a red star on his cap. It was the

24 old kind of police uniform that we used to have.

25 Q. Do you remember where, in which room Drago Tokmadzic was placed?

Page 9851

1 A. Room 2.

2 Q. Do you know why he was put there in that particular room?

3 A. Probably because less severe cases were taken in Room 1, that is,

4 the individuals who were not considered to be guilty of anything in

5 particular.

6 Q. Did Drago Tokmadzic stay in Room 2 throughout that period of time?

7 A. Yes. Yes, he did.

8 Q. While you were on duty, do you know whether Drago Tokmadzic was

9 beaten?

10 A. He was beaten every day.

11 Q. Do you remember whether he was beaten during the day or during the

12 night?

13 A. Both during the day and night.

14 Q. Do you know anything about the reasons why Drago Tokmadzic was

15 beaten?

16 A. He had been an active policeman prior to the war, and he had had

17 conflicts with a number of people. Everybody said that he had been a very

18 violent and aggressive policeman, that he would beat people up, and that's

19 why people wanted to avenge themselves.

20 Q. Do you know who it was who beat Drago Tokmadzic?

21 A. Various groups of people: members of the military, police, the

22 reserve police, people who would come from the outside.

23 Q. Would you watch when Drago Tokmadzic was beaten?

24 A. No. No. I wouldn't. I would just see the beginning of the

25 beating incident and I would go back to my guard post.

Page 9852

1 Q. Would you please come closer to the microphone. I cannot hear you

2 very well.

3 A. Anyway, I would not watch those beatings. I would move away,

4 because I was sorry. I felt sorry for everybody. That's the kind of

5 person I am.

6 Q. Witness DD/6, did you see Zoran Zigic beat Drago Tokmadzic?

7 A. No, I did not.

8 Q. Did you ever see Zoran Zigic amongst the soldiers who were beating

9 Drago Tokmadzic?

10 A. I never saw him with those soldiers.

11 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to what happened with Drago

12 Tokmadzic?

13 A. I heard that he did not survive the beating, that one morning he

14 was found dead. But I was not on duty at that time, so I don't know for

15 sure, but this is at least what I heard from others.

16 Q. Who did you hear it from?

17 A. From my colleagues. There were rumours, stories. People talked

18 to each other.

19 Q. This happened a long time ago, I know, but could you perhaps

20 remember when Drago Tokmadzic died as a result of those beatings?

21 A. Perhaps seven days after my arrival in Keraterm, but I really

22 cannot be sure. It was a long time ago. But it must have been seven or

23 eight days after my arrival.

24 Q. Did you ever see Zoran Zigic kill anyone in Keraterm?

25 A. No. I am a hundred per cent sure I didn't.

Page 9853

1 Q. Are you familiar with an incident in Keraterm when a number of

2 people were killed during one night?

3 A. Yes, I am.

4 Q. Do you know when that happened?

5 A. It was during the night between the 24th and 25th of July, 1992.

6 Q. Were you on duty? Was your shift on duty at that time?

7 A. Yes. Yes, I was on duty.

8 Q. What shift was it?

9 A. It was the night shift, in the night between the 24th to the 25th,

10 from 7.00 in the evening to 7.00 in the morning, or from 6.00 to 6.00.

11 Q. When did you arrive to take up your shift that evening?

12 A. I came between 6.00 and 7.00.

13 Q. Would you repeat when your -- how long did your night shift last?

14 A. I can't remember. It was a long time ago. It was either from

15 7.00 to 7.00 or from 6.00 to 6.00, so this difference -- I give you this

16 difference now because I can't remember whether it was from 6.00 in the

17 evening to 6.00 in the morning or from 7.00 in the evening to 7.00 in the

18 morning.

19 Q. Does that mean, Witness DD/6, in more precise terms, from 1800 to

20 1900 hours in the evening and then until 6.00 a.m. or 7.00 a.m. in the

21 morning? Is that what you mean?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Do you remember what the day was like? I'm talking about the day,

24 the weather. What was the weather like?

25 A. It was hot. It was about 30 degrees centigrade. It was very hot,

Page 9854

1 and that is a time of year when it is generally hot in our country. So

2 that's what the weather was like.

3 Q. Did you take over your shift, and were you at the same guard post

4 that evening as you described earlier, the guard post you always did?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. When you came to take up your shift, did you notice anything out

7 of the ordinary compared to the previous days or nights when you were on

8 duty?

9 A. I didn't notice anything out of the ordinary.

10 Q. And would you please, Witness, make pauses between question and

11 answer.

12 A. Well, I can't hear the interpretation very well, so I don't know

13 when it overlaps.

14 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could the usher put

15 the volume up for the witness in his headsets, because it appears that the

16 witness can't hear the interpretation very well.

17 Q. Is that better, Witness? Can you hear me now? Can you hear me

18 properly now?

19 A. Yes, I can hear you, but I can't hear their interpretation.

20 Q. Well, anyway, please try and make pauses between my question and

21 your answers. Thank you.

22 Let me repeat my last question again. After you took over your

23 shift, did you notice anything out of the ordinary?

24 A. When I arrived, everything seemed normal. I would go up to them,

25 I would see everything was in order. Most of them were outside, in front

Page 9855

1 of the rooms. Nothing out of the ordinary.

2 Q. Do you remember whether on that particular evening the Keraterm

3 compound was lit?

4 A. It was always lit. It was lighted up all the time. There were

5 lights around here, by the fence. They were the big kind of lights with

6 the pillars, the lampposts, sort of round lampposts.

7 Q. Were all the lights working, burning, that night, that evening?

8 A. No, they weren't.

9 Q. Do you remember how many lights were actually working?

10 A. Two to three.

11 Q. Could you see the Keraterm compound?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. How long were you in Keraterm?

14 A. Up until about the end of July. I left thereabouts.

15 Q. No. I'm asking you about that particular evening. How long were

16 you in Keraterm that night?

17 A. About 9.00, 9.30 p.m., and then I left. Do you want me to

18 explain?

19 Q. Before you left your shift, did you make a tour of the rooms and

20 lock them up?

21 A. Yes, I did.

22 Q. I'm thinking of Rooms 1, 2, 3, and 4.

23 A. Yes, I did.

24 Q. When you made the tour of the rooms to lock them up, did you

25 notice anything unusual?

Page 9856

1 A. No.

2 Q. Do you remember how you locked Room 1; with what?

3 A. There was a lock and chain on Room 1, and I think on Room 4,

4 whereas Rooms 2 and 3 had an ordinary lock with a key, not the

5 chain-and-lock system.

6 Q. That evening, before you left, did you receive any reinforcements,

7 any people come as reinforcements?

8 A. We would get reinforcements all the time. There were not enough

9 guards and a large number of detainees, so the TO, members of the

10 Territorial Defence of the town of Prijedor, would come as reinforcements

11 to Keraterm.

12 Q. When would they arrive?

13 A. About 9, 9.30, thereabouts.

14 Q. How would they come to Keraterm?

15 A. They would come by bus.

16 Q. Witness DD/6, was the Keraterm compound secured by weapons, arms?

17 Were they used to guard it?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Since when were those weapons positioned there?

20 A. Since the very beginning they were there.

21 Q. What was the security for Keraterm?

22 A. We had the infantry rifles of the men and machine-guns as well,

23 two machine-guns.

24 Q. Do you remember where the machine-guns were positioned?

25 A. Yes, I do.

Page 9857

1 Q. Could you indicate that to us on this picture.

2 A. Yes. One of them was to the left, hereabouts. There was a

3 barrier here, and that's where the first one was, and the other one was

4 more to the right, over here. That was where the barrier, sandbag barrier

5 was.

6 Q. Could you put "number 1" in the position where the first

7 machine-gun was. Put "M1," please, Witness, "M1" for the first

8 machine-gun, and "M2" to denote the second machine-gun.

9 A. [Marks]

10 Q. Tell us, please, do you happen to remember whether at that time in

11 the Keraterm compound there was a weighing-in device of any kind?

12 A. Yes, there was.

13 Q. What kind of weighing-in device?

14 A. Well, to measure the weight of the trucks, the load, the freight

15 of the trucks.

16 Q. Was there a hut next to this weighing-in device or scales?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Could you locate that hut on this picture?

19 A. Yes. This is the hut, and this is where the weighing-in machine

20 was. It was rather a big one so that the truck could actually go onto it,

21 onto the device, and be weighed.

22 Q. Would you mark that in for us, please.

23 A. Like this, this is what it looked like. The truck would move up

24 onto that weighing device.

25 Q. And what about the hut?

Page 9858

1 A. The hut was here.

2 Q. Could we put a "V" for vaga or weighing-in device.

3 A. This is it here, yes.

4 Q. Witness DD/6, you said that you left the Keraterm compound that

5 evening. Could you tell us what time again, please?

6 A. Between 9 and 9.30 p.m., or 2100 hours, 2130 hours, whichever you

7 like.

8 Q. Why did you leave?

9 A. Because I had some private business to attend to.

10 Q. Could you explain to us what it was about.

11 A. Well, if you think it's essential, but I don't think it's anything

12 important. They were my own private affairs, some private business that I

13 had to attend to.

14 Q. Did you leave Keraterm with or without permission?

15 A. No, I asked the duty officer, and he gave me permission; that is

16 to say yes.

17 Q. When you were going out of Keraterm, was -- when you were leaving

18 Keraterm, was everything "normal"?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you return that night to the Keraterm compound?

21 A. Yes, I did.

22 Q. When did you come back?

23 A. Between 4 and 5 a.m.

24 Q. After you entered the Keraterm compound, what did you see?

25 A. The compound was lit up. There was some sporadic gunshots, and we

Page 9859

1 had to -- can I indicate this on the picture, please?

2 Q. Yes, please go ahead. That would be a good idea.

3 A. There was shooting, sporadic gunfire that is, and we had to move

4 through -- past the military police and go along the fence to enter

5 Keraterm 'cause we were -- because we were afraid.

6 Q. When you entered the Keraterm compound, was the situation the same

7 as when you left the compound?

8 A. No. Do you wish me to explain?

9 Q. Yes, please do. Go ahead.

10 A. The compound was lit up more. There was shooting, there was a

11 great deal of commotion, a lot of people, and the compound looked quite

12 different. It was no longer the compound -- the kind of compound I left.

13 It looked -- everything looked different.

14 Q. Did you see any dead bodies?

15 A. Yes, I did.

16 Q. Where were they?

17 A. Well, they were all scattered this way. Some of them had been

18 fleeing this way and were lying there, and other people were lying along

19 this wall here. I could see them very well.

20 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] [No translation]

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Is that better? Is that all

22 right? I'm not getting the interpretation either.

23 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President -- [No translation]

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] [No translation]

25 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] I should be on channel 6, on

Page 9860

1 channel 6. I'm getting the English interpretation. May we try again?

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Perhaps you have changed

3 channels.

4 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] [No translation]

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] [No translation]

6 I see that the English court reporter can't hear now, so there

7 seems to be a problem.

8 Witness, can you hear?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I can hear the French booth

11 myself. [In English] I'm hearing the English booth, too, so ...

12 What about the English court reporter, can you hear?

13 Mr. Deretic, please proceed and we'll see how it goes.

14 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

15 Q. Witness, when you returned to the Keraterm compound, was the

16 compound lit?

17 A. Yes, it was more strongly lit when I came back.

18 Q. How were you able to notice this?

19 A. Well, I saw that there were some strong lights beamed towards Room

20 3. Do you want me to explain what happened?

21 Q. Where was the light coming from?

22 A. From a reflector light that had probably been set up that night,

23 because when I left, it wasn't there; when I came back, I saw this

24 reflector light had been put into position.

25 Q. Can you show us on the picture where that reflector light was, and

Page 9861

1 could you place an "R" for the reflector light.

2 A. It was on a post, set up on a post, and that was the first time

3 that I saw a reflector light of that kind. It was enormous, a very big

4 one. A searchlight, in fact. It was a big searchlight.

5 Q. Did you see anything else beside the searchlight?

6 A. Yes, I did. A row of people, mostly soldiers.

7 Q. Which soldiers were they?

8 A. Well, they were the territorial units, the intervention platoon

9 from Prijedor I Police Station, but at least I didn't know them. Most of

10 them were people I didn't know.

11 Q. Did any of them shoot?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Can you tell us how many dead bodies you saw in the compound?

14 A. In the compound. You mean in front of the rooms, the

15 dormitories?

16 Q. Will you explain to us if you saw them and where you saw them and

17 how many you saw.

18 A. Well, it will be best for me to explain to you like this: There

19 were five or six dead bodies in front of these doors; three of them were

20 piled up, one on top of the other, in front of this door; and over here

21 there were another three or four. That's what I was able to see.

22 Q. You said that you stayed there until 6.00.

23 A. Yes, that's right.

24 Q. Did you leave your shift at 6.00?

25 A. Yes.

Page 9862

1 Q. That night, were a number of people killed?

2 A. Yes, they were.

3 Q. Can you tell us how many people were killed that night?

4 A. Well, it's difficult for me to say with any certainty, but what I

5 heard that they had loaded - and it was about an hour - I would say about

6 50 people at the most, about 50.

7 Q. Before you left your shift, before you went off duty, did you see

8 a truck of any kind in the compound?

9 A. No, I didn't.

10 Q. Before you left, did you unlock the rooms where the detainees

11 were?

12 A. Yes, I did.

13 Q. On that occasion did you call anyone out?

14 A. Yes, I did.

15 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, may we go into

16 private session for a few moments for my next question?

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Let us move into private

18 session for a few moments.

19 [Private session]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 9863

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [Open session]

Page 9864

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We are in open session,

2 Mr. Deretic, so please proceed.

3 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. After you returned in the morning, you said that you returned

5 about between 3.00 and 4.00 a.m. Did you see Zoran Zigic then in the

6 Keraterm compound?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Did you -- could you have seen Zoran Zigic amongst those soldiers

9 who were there in the compound had he been there?

10 A. Well, if he had been there, I must have seen him, I would have

11 seen him, and if not seen him, I would have heard him; that's for sure.

12 Q. Why did you say "hear him, that's for sure"?

13 A. Well, because he was always very loud. He would make a lot of

14 noise. You could hear him two kilometres away.

15 Q. When did you come on duty next?

16 A. Well, I was off for 24 hours and then I took up my shift after

17 that 24-hour break.

18 Q. And how long were you in Keraterm?

19 A. Until the end of July.

20 Q. During those wartime events, did you happen to see Zoran Zigic

21 around the town of Prijedor at all?

22 A. Yes, I did.

23 Q. Was he wearing a uniform, the kind that you described and the cap

24 you described?

25 A. Yes, he was.

Page 9865

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic, I apologise for

2 interrupting, but could you tell us how much more time you need?

3 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Five minutes, Mr. President. I am

4 looking at my watch all the time, and I should like to get through this

5 before the break. I will need five more minutes.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Please proceed,

7 then.

8 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Witness, you said a moment ago that you have known Zoran for at

10 least 25 years; is that correct?

11 A. Yes, it is.

12 Q. When you met him the first time, what was his hair colour?

13 A. Black.

14 Q. When you would meet, that is to say, during those war years, did

15 you ever happen to notice Zoran dye his hair?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Did he have earrings in his ears during that period?

18 A. I never saw him with earrings, no.

19 Q. Did he ever wear black gloves with the fingers cut off?

20 A. I never saw that either, no.

21 Q. During that time when you would see Zigic, Zoran Zigic, do you

22 happen to know whether he drank?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did he drink moderately?

25 A. No, not moderately.

Page 9866

1 Q. Let me repeat my question. During that period of time, did Zigic,

2 Zoran, drink moderately?

3 A. Well, how can I say? He always drank too much, and whenever I saw

4 him, he would always be drunk, practically always.

5 Q. These meetings of yours, where were they, generally?

6 A. Well, we would meet in cafes, in bars.

7 Q. Can you describe those meetings for us briefly?

8 A. Yes, I can. I would go into a bar. I went into this cafe called

9 Trij Lipe to have a glass of something. Usually I drink Coca-Cola, but

10 when I went in and saw Zigic sitting there, he noticed me and then I

11 wasn't able to leave. I had to sit down with him.

12 He asked me what I was going to drink, and he [as interpreted]

13 said, "I'll have a juice." And he said, "No, you can't have a juice," and

14 wouldn't let the waitress bring me a juice. I had to drink -- he said,

15 "You can either have a beer or something stronger," and I had to obey.

16 That's how it was. I had a bit more to drink. I had about three beers,

17 and then I left. That was our meeting.

18 Q. Was he under the influence of alcohol then? Was he intoxicated?

19 A. Yes, he was.

20 Q. Can you tell us when this particular event took place?

21 A. It was sometime in the summer of 1993.

22 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] And two more questions,

23 Mr. President, if I may, with the Court's indulgence.

24 Q. What was his behaviour in situations of that kind, Zoran Zigic's?

25 A. Well, you could never be certain whether he was going to hit you

Page 9867

1 or be friendly towards you, so I would always approach him with a great

2 deal of reserve. I was never quite certain what to expect.

3 Q. And my final question for you, Witness: How would you describe

4 Zoran Zigic as a person?

5 A. Well, when he was sober, he was all right; when he had something

6 to drink, it was better to steer clear of him.

7 Q. Thank you, Witness DD/6.

8 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, that completes my

9 examination of this witness.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. Deretic. Thank

11 you. I think that this is -- that it's time for our break, but before we

12 break, I should like to ask the usher to lower the blinds and escort the

13 witness out of the courtroom. And I say for the purposes of the public

14 gallery that this witness enjoys protective measures, so we're going to

15 lower the blinds, and we have a half-hour break.

16 A half-hour break. We adjourn.

17 --- Recess taken at 10.59 a.m.

18 --- On resuming at 11.33 a.m.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.

20 Witness DD/6, you're now going to answer questions that will be

21 put to you by the counsel for the Prosecution.

22 Madam Susan Somers, you have the floor for the cross-examination.

23 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Cross-examined by Ms. Somers:

25 Q. [redacted]would you please -- Sorry. Witness

Page 9868

1 [redacted]would you please indicate your present

2 occupation.

3 A. I work in a private company.

4 Q. What is the private company, name and location, please?

5 A. [redacted]

6 Q. If it does not provide any identifying information as to your own

7 identity, please indicate what you do for that company and for how long

8 you have worked there.

9 A. Well, I think I have already provided you with some identifying

10 information by saying where I work. I think I will have to disclose my

11 identity if I go on.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Somers, we could perhaps

13 move into private session. The witness will feel more comfortable when

14 answering your question.

15 [Private session]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 9869













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Page 9870













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Page 9871













13 Page 9871 redacted private session.













Page 9872

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [Open session]

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We are, I think, in private [as

16 interpreted] -- in public session already. Ms. Somers, please continue.

17 MS. SOMERS: Yes, public session. Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. You were explaining how you came to know Mr. Zigic, and you gave

19 some indication that it was through your brother. And can you tell us,

20 please: Over the years, indicate the frequency or the intervals, the

21 intervals at which you saw and spent time with Zoran Zigic.

22 A. With Zoran Zigic. I think you said "Goran Zigic," and we're

23 talking about Zoran Zigic.

24 Q. I meant Zoran. If you heard "Goran," I apologise.

25 A. I apologise too. At the beginning, I used to see him almost every

Page 9873

1 day while he was a taxi driver, because I would come to see my brother and

2 they would be together. After that, I saw him less frequently.

3 Q. And when you say "less frequently," can you indicate, please: Did

4 you see him once a week, once a day, once a month, once a year? And

5 particularly, in 1992, 1993, emphasising that period, how frequently did

6 you see Zoran Zigic?

7 A. Before the war, at the beginning, almost every day, two or three

8 days. After that, I would see him perhaps once a month, and then later

9 on, perhaps only once a year. In 1992, during the war, I saw him at the

10 beginning, when I came to Keraterm, and then in 1993 I saw him once again,

11 and after that, I don't remember seeing him at all.

12 Q. Your arrival at Keraterm was substantially after the camp opened,

13 was it not? The camp had been opened at least three weeks when you

14 arrived there?

15 A. I don't know exactly when it was open.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Deretic.

17 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am sorry to

18 intervene because of some banal things and to have to interrupt the

19 cross-examination, but I have to say that the question contains a

20 conclusion, that is, that there was a period of time of three weeks

21 between the opening of the camp and the arrival of the witness. I'm not a

22 very good mathematician at all, but that would have been sometime around

23 the 26th, and that is not what the witness - I'm sorry - sometime around

24 the 20th of June, and that is not what the witness stated.

25 MS. SOMERS: I'll be happy to rephrase the question, Your Honour.

Page 9874

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, please do so. I can see

2 the word "substantially" in the record. That's perhaps not something that

3 we should be using.

4 MS. SOMERS: [Previous translation continues] ...

5 Q. The Kozarac area was taken over, and we have used the

6 term - perhaps you use a different term - "cleansed," on the 24th of May,

7 1992. Are you familiar with that particular occurrence?

8 A. As far as I know, it took place before that, before the 24th and

9 the 25th, maybe three or four days prior to that, and we also use the term

10 "cleanse."

11 Q. The individuals who were taken from Kozarac, the non-Serbs, are

12 you able to tell us whether or not you know if they were in Keraterm?

13 Would you know that?

14 A. Yes, of course I knew that. I was there, and when they arrived,

15 they had to pass by me, where I stood.

16 Q. Okay. So then, Witness DD/6, persons from the Kozarac area who

17 had been removed were in Keraterm, and are you familiar with the fact that

18 there was an overflow of population and persons were then moved to

19 Omarska? Just so we can get a time frame about when the camps may have

20 opened. Perhaps that would assist you a little bit.

21 A. I know that some went to Omarska, some were in Keraterm. Those

22 were the two main groups of people, how they were distributed, mainly for

23 reasons of space.

24 Q. Then we can agree, just so it's clear, that when the incident at

25 Kozarac occurred, those non-Serb persons were taken to Keraterm? If

Page 9875

1 that's a fair statement, I would just ask you to let me know.

2 A. They were both in Keraterm and Omarska.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic.

4 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the witness was clear

5 as to the time of his arrival in Keraterm, and he specified that people

6 passed him by when he came. Up until now, he hasn't spoken about the

7 events that took place prior to the opening of the Keraterm camp. My

8 learned colleague is drawing conclusions.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Somers.

10 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, the solemn declaration that was signed

11 is a May declaration, the events that occurred after the takeover by the

12 Serbs of this area are very relevant, and I think it is critical that we

13 test the witness's knowledge of events and of his knowledge of who would

14 or would not have been in Keraterm, at which camp he has admitted serving.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You are right, but my concern

16 was the fact that the witness said after the takeover of Kozarac some of

17 them were taken to Keraterm and some to Omarska. I mean, that is the fact

18 that we have to bear in mind. Please continue with your questions.

19 A. If I may be given the floor, please. The solemn declaration was

20 signed only afterwards. We had already been with the police, and we had

21 signed the declaration and photographs were taken. But it happened only

22 after, sometime later. We were already with the police.

23 MS. SOMERS: I think, Your Honour, the witness has indicated --

24 has answered sufficiently for my purposes, unless the Chamber has another

25 question.

Page 9876

1 Q. You have also mentioned that you worked various shifts or, at

2 least, you staggered your hours. Tell us, please, the name of your shift

3 leader at Keraterm.

4 A. I could do that, but I think we would again have to move into

5 private session.

6 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, I would disagree, but if the Chamber

7 feels this is essential, I think that it probably would not be a giveaway,

8 but I would leave that in the Chamber's hands.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think that it is preferable to

10 move into private session if the witness would feel more comfortable.

11 [Private session]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 9877













13 Page 9877 redacted private session.













Page 9878













13 Page 9878 redacted private session.













Page 9879

1 [Open session]

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We are in open session.


4 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... role - I beg your pardon - of

5 Sikirica?

6 A. His role was he would come by car, tour it, make a tour of it,

7 that sort of thing. Let me explain how I got to know him, if you want

8 to -- if you want me to. But once again, this would require us to go back

9 into private session if you want me to explain.

10 Q. I don't think that will be necessary. I'd like to ask you,

11 please --

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic, you're on your

13 feet.

14 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence of

15 Mr. Zigic once again would like to refer to Rule 95 of the Rules of

16 Procedure and Evidence, and the subject of the cross-examination is not

17 now linked to the examination-in-chief. This seems to be an investigation

18 or interrogation about other persons, and we should like to object along

19 those lines.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic, do you see any

21 difference here with respect to the discussion we had and the position we

22 took yesterday with respect to an identical situation that cropped up

23 then?

24 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] I consider, Mr. President, that

25 there is a difference here with respect to the way in which the

Page 9880

1 Prosecution asked the question. In the examination-in-chief of the

2 witness, we did not mention the individual that was brought up now with

3 respect to any of his functions.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Ms. Susan Somers, is

5 your response the same as it was yesterday?

6 MS. SOMERS: It is, Your Honour. Thank you.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] It is the position of the

8 Chamber -- the position of the Chamber remains unchanged. We assume the

9 same position. These questions are relative to the indictment and

10 relevant to the case.

11 We have already said that there are different interpretations of

12 that particular rule. The Chamber takes a broader view, a broader

13 interpretation of the issue, but the Chamber also considers that certain

14 discipline and organisation must be applied.

15 I think that we decided that the clearest way to limit the

16 Prosecutor -- the best way to limit the Prosecutor was time, the time

17 factor. And as I said yesterday, if Ms. Susan Somers has questions to ask

18 with respect to sport or someone from the cinema, I'll cut her off there

19 at that point, but I'm not going to cut her off here.

20 So please, Ms. Susan Somers, continue, but please bear in mind

21 that I'm going to be very strict as to the time you take.


23 Q. Can you please tell us if you recall Zoran Zigic being present

24 at -- sorry, at Keraterm when Dusan or Dusko Sikirica was at Keraterm? Do

25 you recall that?


Page 9881












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 9882

1 A. No.

2 MS. SOMERS: I would ask, please, excuse me, that Exhibit 3/249 be

3 distributed. If the usher is also able to place the exhibit on the ELMO

4 after distributing, I would appreciate it.

5 Q. In front of you is a document dated 4th of July, 1992. It is a

6 note, official note, which purports to bear the signature of Dusko

7 Sikirica, and this note indicates that it was compiled on the 4th of July,

8 in the offices of Prijedor II Wartime Police Station RSM, regarding Zoran,

9 son of Nikola, Zigic, and it goes on to state that:

10 "Zoran Zigic, an armed, uniformed person (I do not know which

11 unit he belongs to) came to the Keraterm Reception Centre several times at

12 night, together with Dusko Knezevic, Zoran Vokic, and Zeljko Timarac.

13 "Despite our warnings not to enter the reception centre compound,

14 they entered, explaining that they were going to talk to one of the

15 prisoners. According to the guards, they beat prisoners to exhaustion,

16 after which they left. Those beaten would die a few days after they left.

17 "I hereby ask the responsible bodies to suggest to the military

18 command that," and it's difficult to read this in English, "such

19 conscripts should be prevented from committing these arbitrary acts.

20 "Any intervention on our part would result in an armed conflict,

21 which is not in anyone's interest at this moment."

22 And it bears, or purports to bear, a signature of Dusko Sikirica.

23 Now, this date, July 4th, from your testimony, was a date during

24 which you were working; at least, that was during the time period, as I

25 understood your testimony, where you in fact were working at Keraterm.

Page 9883

1 Help me understand. You indicated that you had four responsibilities,

2 four areas of responsibility: One was to prevent civilians from getting

3 to the detainees; another was to lock and unlock the dormitories; another

4 was to take individuals for interrogation; and then later you added

5 distribution of food and water.

6 Were you called in at any point by Sikirica or anyone in command

7 of Keraterm about the entries referred to in this document of Zoran Zigic?

8 A. I can't remember.

9 Q. Do you know an individual at Keraterm by the name of Dosen, first

10 name Damir?

11 A. I do.

12 Q. Do you know if Dosen used any other last name? Was he ever

13 referred to by any other last name?

14 A. I don't know. I know him by his surname.

15 Q. Have you ever heard him referred to as Petkovic, perhaps? Does

16 that ring a bell?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Did you ever hear of an individual named Danka Petkovic? Did you

19 ever know her?

20 A. I don't think so. I don't think I ever knew a woman by the name

21 of Petkovic.

22 Q. Did you know any nicknames used by Dosen?

23 A. Well, let me explain. Dosen and I grew up together and I always

24 knew him as Dosen, but I didn't know a nickname. That's an absurd

25 question to ask me. I said that I knew him as Dosen, and that's how I

Page 9884

1 knew him. We grew up together and I always knew him as Dosen.

2 Q. Did you see him in Keraterm?

3 A. I said that I did. I've already said that.

4 Q. In what capacity was he working at Keraterm?

5 A. He was shift leader.

6 Q. So that's Kolundzija, Dosen, and was there another shift leader,

7 perhaps?

8 A. Could you explain to me what this has to do with my testimony at

9 all, who was shift leader and who wasn't?

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness, I am going to intervene

11 at this point. This is a question that we discussed. You are here to

12 answer questions and not to ask questions yourself. Of course, it is true

13 that you can ask questions if they are pertinent, but this is a matter we

14 discussed, as you understood. So please answer the question you have been

15 asked by the Prosecutor.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Judge, can I say

17 something? If I say I want a private session, then I need one. I don't

18 want to name names until we are in private session, because I have to go

19 back to that environment and I want protection.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers.

21 MS. SOMERS: I have no objection to private session, Your Honour,

22 although I will indicate that, as a matter of public record, there are

23 names on indictments. But it's fine.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. Let us move into private

25 session, then.

Page 9885

1 [Private session]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [Open session]

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers, please

15 proceed.


17 Q. You indicated during your testimony that Zoran Zigic would go for,

18 I believe you said, water and food. Was that correct, water and food?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And in what types or type of vehicle would he go for those

21 commodities?

22 A. In a minibus.

23 Q. And he drove it?

24 A. He did, yes.

25 Q. Had you driven that minibus? Are you familiar with that

Page 9886

1 particular bus?

2 A. I did not drive it.

3 Q. Have you seen it inside, for example? Have you seen the layout of

4 the inside of the bus?

5 A. No. As far as I know, no, I didn't see the inside.

6 Q. Do you know whether or not it was a manual, with a four- or

7 five-speed transmission, or an automatic? Would you happen to know that?

8 A. I don't know. I didn't go into the minibus. I really don't

9 know. I can't remember.

10 Q. You also made reference to a motorcycle. What type of motorcycle

11 was it that accused Zigic was riding, if you know?

12 A. A small, white, automatic motorcycle popular in our parts. That's

13 why I know it.

14 Q. It had the typical hand controls of a regular motorcycle?

15 A. Well, hand controls, the regular type of motor. It didn't have

16 any speeds. It was just -- you'd just press the fuel -- like a moped,

17 actually.

18 Q. Do you know how it operated? I mean, how did you start it and how

19 did you increase -- if you needed to go a little bit faster, how would you

20 do that on that type of a motorcycle?

21 A. You would switch it on by pressing the pedal with your leg. I

22 don't know. I never drove a motorcycle like that. I never rode one

23 myself. But I think you would press your foot down and that would make it

24 start. There was a pedal. You would turn the pedal, depress it, and then

25 it would take off; release the fuel, inject the fuel, and it would take

Page 9887

1 off.

2 Q. And like any motorcycle, you would steer it with your hands, is

3 that correct, like any motorcycle; nothing special about that one?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. If you want to go into private session to answer this, we can do

6 that, but I would like to ask you, please, to tell us exactly what it was

7 you had to do that took you out of Keraterm camp at about 6.00 the evening

8 of the 24th of July - excuse me. I'm sorry - at about 2130 hours on the

9 24th of July. If you'd like private session indicated, it will just take

10 a minute.

11 A. I can answer that question as we are. My mother was ill, so I had

12 to go home, but first I went to have a cup of coffee with some ladies,

13 lady friends.

14 Q. And where did you have that coffee? After you left Keraterm, you

15 had coffee with some lady friends. Where did you have the coffee?

16 A. How can I explain? It was Prvomajska street, if you know it,

17 number 405 at the beginning of the street.

18 Q. Was it a cafe?

19 A. No. It was a private house.

20 Q. And when you say some ladies, were they young ladies; ladies your

21 age?

22 A. Well, ladies of my age, yes, my age.

23 Q. But social, social friends?

24 A. Well, a friendly visit, me and my colleague and the two of them.

25 How shall I explain that to you? Normal.

Page 9888

1 Q. And how long did you stay with your friends?

2 A. A long time, very long.

3 Q. When did you leave the ladies' private home to go to your mom?

4 A. I can't say exactly, but my house is about -- well, it's nearby,

5 relatively nearby. I needed 15 minutes to get home. I went and then

6 returned to the same place.

7 Q. I'm sorry, it was nearby to what? Your home was nearby to the

8 home of the ladies?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And you stayed there for a fairly long period of time with your

11 lady friends, then you went to your home to see --

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. -- see your mom, and then you went back to see the ladies. And

14 then did you go back immediately to Keraterm after that, after seeing the

15 ladies, or did you go back to your house?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Which?

18 A. Keraterm.

19 Q. Right from seeing the ladies, you went directly back to Keraterm?

20 A. Yes. This is how it was: I went there, had some coffees, visited

21 my mother, saw whether she was all right, whether she needed any help,

22 because my mother has been ill for quite a long time, so I went to see how

23 she was. It was difficult to come by medicine, but she had taken her

24 medicine. She had attacks, and it's an ugly sight to see when she's

25 undergoing one of those attacks. Her jaws trembles and so on. But she

Page 9889

1 said she was all right, and then I went back to my lady friends, and then,

2 about four or five, I returned to Keraterm from my lady friends.

3 Q. Did you have a particular indication that night that your mom was

4 in particularly bad shape that would have taken you out of Keraterm?

5 A. Well, when I went to work she was feeling poorly, so I knew when I

6 left for work that she was feeling poorly, and I wanted to see how she

7 was. But I left exceptionally that night. I didn't usually leave my

8 shifts; I would always work through my whole shift. I would leave my

9 shift only very rarely. I didn't usually do that.

10 Q. And so knowing -- are you saying, though, you came to work that

11 day knowing that you would have to leave a bit early? Is that what you're

12 telling us?

13 A. Well, yes, yes.

14 Q. Now, when you spoke with your shift leader and indicated that you

15 needed to go and, as you had mentioned on page 28, you got permission, was

16 that the first time, or what time did you actually tell your shift leader

17 that you needed to go? When was that?

18 A. I think it was the first time. I said straight away that I had to

19 go, so whether he let me go or not, that wasn't important. I would have

20 gone anyway. I had to go see my mother, and I had to do that. It's

21 something I just had to do.

22 Q. But what time did you announce to that person, to the shift

23 leader, that you were going to need to go?

24 A. Well, when I came on duty, and he said, "Well just tell me so I

25 know," so that's what I did.

Page 9890

1 Q. Just help me remember: What time did you come on duty that day?

2 A. Between six and seven. I don't remember exactly, between 6 and 7

3 p.m.

4 Q. Now, you had mentioned that they needed at Keraterm to get some

5 additional staffing, and I think the TO were mentioned in your testimony,

6 that more people were needed. Did you have difficulty with anybody

7 superior to you because you were trying to leave at a time when they were

8 trying to boost their staff? Did that cause any conflict among those

9 assigning work details?

10 A. No, and let me tell you why. They took over the night shifts and

11 provided security for Keraterm. We would mostly sleep during the night,

12 if you understand what I'm saying. They provided the security, so we

13 didn't really have much to do, and so for the most part, we rested.

14 Q. Now, that night, from what you indicated in your direct evidence,

15 they were not resting. There appeared to have been some extraordinary

16 activity. Is that what you came to find when you returned at four in the

17 morning?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. When you were with your lady friends and at your mom's house, can

20 you tell us, please, the distance from Keraterm to your lady friends'

21 house and then your mom's house, the distances?

22 A. Well, Keraterm is from those ladies about a kilometre away, and so

23 is my house.

24 Q. So you were at the ladies' or your mom's between the hours of

25 midnight and roughly four-ish, four in the morning, or returning to

Page 9891

1 Keraterm at four, but you were in the vicinity about a kilometre from

2 Keraterm during that whole period of time, right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you hear the bursts of gunfire that were almost non-stop at

5 that time?

6 A. Well, it was like this; let me explain to you to help you

7 understand. I laugh because I knew you'd be asking me that question. I

8 assumed you would, at least. It was like this: When I visited my mother

9 and went back to my lady friends, I was very tired and went to sleep, and

10 in the morning about 4 a.m. I was woken up by the shooting. Now, can you

11 understand that?

12 Q. This Chamber has heard testimony that at the home of Zigic's

13 parents in Cirkin Polje, not too terribly far, the people who were

14 enjoying a garden barbecue heard very distinctly the sound of repeated

15 gunfire for hours on end.

16 I'm curious how perhaps you didn't hear it until the time you just

17 mentioned. Could you maybe help us understand that?

18 A. Yes, I can. I slept very soundly. When I'm really tired, I don't

19 hear anything. A top could go off, a cannon, and I wouldn't hear it

20 firing. I'm a very sound sleeper when I'm tired.

21 Q. But you had been drinking coffee for several hours. Coffee is not

22 alcohol.

23 A. Doesn't matter. Coffee doesn't make any difference. I can have a

24 cup of coffee now and go straight to sleep right here and now.

25 Q. When you got back to Keraterm, were you given any particular

Page 9892

1 orders about what to do? When you arrived, you saw a scene that you said

2 was not the Keraterm that you left earlier that evening. What did you do?

3 How did you react?

4 A. Well, nothing. When I passed by, you saw the way I went, I simply

5 arrived. The commander was there, and he said, "Go to your post," and I

6 went straight to my post. And of course, everybody could see what the

7 situation was like, what the scene was like there.

8 Q. Where was your post, if you can tell us?

9 A. At the entrance to Keraterm.

10 Q. When you came back, did you have your weapons on, or did you have

11 to get them from some depot in the camp?

12 A. You always carried your weapons with you.

13 Q. What type of weapon were you carrying?

14 A. An automatic rifle.

15 Q. Before you left Keraterm to go visit your lady friends and your

16 mom, can you tell us who was in the camp? Who did you actually see in the

17 way of guards before you left; and when you came back, whom did you see?

18 A. I don't understand your question. Could you explain what you

19 mean?

20 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Before you left, let me ask

21 you specifically, before you left, did you see, let's say, Dusko Sikirica

22 at Keraterm before you left, or Zivko Knezevic? Were they there?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Where would they usually be if they were on the premises? Did

25 they have particular locations where you could find them if you needed to

Page 9893

1 reach them easily?

2 A. If they were in the Keraterm compound, then they would be at the

3 weighing-in machine, and you saw where that was. The hut next to the

4 weighing-in machine.

5 Q. They would be inside the hut?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did you, did you have any need to stop at that hut before you left

8 at 9.30, or did you just get out because you had to go?

9 A. Yes. I had to leave my keys there, in the hut.

10 Q. And who was in the hut when you left? Who was actually there?

11 A. The shift leader.

12 Q. Your shift leader, the one you named earlier in your testimony,

13 the same person?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did you see Zivko Knezevic at all there?

16 A. No.

17 Q. You had mentioned Mr. Bahonjic who had died as a result, I believe

18 you said, of beatings. At one point he had been taken to the hospital, as

19 I understood it, because he indicated he had something like pains in his

20 stomach. Am I -- did I follow you correctly? He went to the hospital as

21 a result of perceived pains, right?

22 A. Yes, mostly that's how it was.

23 Q. Do you know who took him to the hospital and which hospital he

24 went to?

25 A. I think that he was taken to the hospital in Cirkin Polje. I

Page 9894

1 don't know for sure, but this is the only and the biggest hospital in the

2 area, and I believe he was taken there by the shift leader in his car, a

3 van. I don't know exactly how it was. I cannot remember.

4 Q. Are you in a position, or do you want to go in closed or private

5 session, to tell us the name of that particular shift leader? Do you want

6 private session for that? I'm going to ask you that question, so you tell

7 us how you want to go.

8 A. I think we will have to go into private session.

9 MS. SOMERS: For one second, please.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Somers, would it be possible

11 for you to organise your cross-examination in such a way that we could

12 have one private session for every such questions; otherwise, we keep

13 moving into and out of private sessions.

14 I will now order a private session for this purpose, but I just

15 wish you could organise your questioning bearing that in mind, please.

16 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, I appreciate your concern. I would like

17 to. It seems there's a sensitivity which will arise periodically, and

18 because the questions flow sometimes one from the other, it will not

19 always be predictable. Apologies for any inconvenience.

20 Are we in private session?


22 [Private session]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 9895

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [Open session]


13 Q. Now, although Mr. Bahonjic was taken for stomach pains, you are

14 unable to tell us if --

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Madam Somers, sorry to interrupt

16 you, but you cannot make here any assessment of the reactions of the

17 witness. These are the conditions of the work that we have accepted, so

18 please abstain from any such comments.

19 MS. SOMERS: Of course. Thank you. I was just trying to indicate

20 that this was a rather unusual sequence for us since I have been with this

21 case.

22 Q. Witness, please tell us, if you can, when Mr. Bahonjic, whom you

23 described as having been repeatedly beaten, you may have used the term

24 "continuously" -- do you recall anyone taking him to the hospital after

25 the beatings?

Page 9896

1 A. I don't remember after the beatings. I remember only about that

2 particular occasion, because he was complaining of pains and a Muslim came

3 to see me and to tell me to go over to him, which I did, and he really

4 looked terrible. And I went to the duty officer, who then called the

5 commander, Zivko Knezevic, and then he was taken to hospital. He received

6 orders to that effect.

7 Q. There has been a fair amount of testimony about the condition of

8 Mr. Bahonjic. Was it also your observation that he could barely walk

9 after a period of time, he had been so badly beaten?

10 A. Well, he did walk, he could walk, although he had been beaten up.

11 He was all black and blue; that's true. You know how a man who has been

12 beaten up looks. But he could walk.

13 Q. Could he run? Could he walk fast enough to escape?

14 A. Well, you know, they could all run, but they didn't dare. He had

15 to escape slowly. There were many people in that dormitory, 400 or 500

16 people, so he was able to walk past us slowly. We wouldn't see him. I

17 mean, we couldn't observe them all the time. He didn't have to run in

18 order to escape; that's what I'm trying to say.

19 Q. The condition in which he found himself, you yourself indicated

20 you had to look away, you couldn't watch, you felt sorry for him. Was it

21 pathetic?

22 A. I felt sorry for all of them, to tell you the truth, but that's

23 the way how he looked. But others looked the same as well. It was

24 nothing special. He could walk with a limp, and that's all.

25 Q. And your way of dealing with it was to walk away because it was

Page 9897

1 difficult to look at; is that correct? It was difficult?

2 A. Yes, that is correct. I couldn't watch that. Ever since I was in

3 the primary school, when I had to attend a funeral because the father of

4 one of our colleagues was killed in a car accident, and ever since that

5 time, I was simply unable to observe, to watch such things.

6 Q. It was your testimony that Bahonjic was in Room 1, but it was also

7 your testimony that Room 1 was for those who were deemed to be less

8 severe, perhaps less severe risks. Maybe you can explain why someone who

9 you said was in Room 1, which was for those lower or less severe risks,

10 would have to be beaten regularly and, in fact, beaten to death.

11 A. He was considered to be dangerous, relatively dangerous, but he

12 was put in Room 1 before my arrival and he stayed there. But I don't know

13 the reason why he was put in Room 1, but perhaps at that time that was the

14 only room that there was.

15 Q. You felt sorry for all of those people. Did you hear the screams

16 that permeated the atmosphere at Keraterm from beatings and abuse? Did

17 you hear that?

18 A. I heard something, but I didn't hear everything. It was a bit

19 further away. I wasn't able to hear everything that was happening.

20 Q. You indicated you took, as one of the four responsibilities,

21 detainees up for interrogation. Did you stand outside the rooms while

22 these persons were being interrogated and perhaps beaten or abused? Did

23 you?

24 A. I stood in front of the door, but I didn't hear anything coming

25 from the inside. I didn't hear any scream or anything of that kind. That

Page 9898

1 I'm perfectly certain about.

2 Q. Did you observe that the individual whom you may have brought up

3 for interrogation and left behind a closed door and waited for, did you

4 observe those persons to be in the same physical condition when they came

5 out as when they went in?

6 A. They were not in the same physical condition. As they entered the

7 room, they were scared and tense, but when they left the room, they were

8 more relaxed. It's like what happened with me when I entered this

9 courtroom for the first time and when I left it. I mean, the difference

10 is huge.

11 MS. SOMERS: Excuse me one minute, Your Honour.

12 Q. In June of 1992, did you hear of any incident involving Zoran

13 Zigic and detainees whom he promised to assist in their release for a sum

14 of Deutschmarks? Did you become aware of that and of the investigation

15 that ensued?

16 A. No, I didn't.

17 Q. There was no talk at all among any of your colleagues at Keraterm

18 about that?

19 A. There were some rumours, but I didn't really listen to them. I

20 don't know much about it.

21 Q. What type of watch do you have now?

22 A. A Seiko watch.

23 Q. When did you acquire that Seiko watch?

24 A. A long time ago.

25 Q. Perhaps in 1992?

Page 9899

1 A. This is absurd. Do you want me to answer that question?

2 Q. I'd like you to answer that question, please.

3 A. Your Honour, it's really an offence to me to have to respond to

4 this kind of question. I hope you can understand that.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Would you please answer the

6 question. I don't see it the way you see it. If anyone should ask me

7 what type of watch I'm wearing and where I acquired it, I wouldn't think

8 that it is an insult. Please answer the question.

9 A. Yes, but she said that I had acquired it in 1992. That is what I

10 believe is an insult for me, because I was in Keraterm in 1992.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, Witness. It's a

12 question that the Prosecutor is asking of you. She even said "perhaps" or

13 "maybe." You can perhaps correct her, but you have to answer the

14 question.

15 A. No, it was prior to that that I acquired it.


17 Q. A person by the name of Adnan Filovic was beaten, or claims to

18 have been beaten by you, while in Keraterm in 1996 [sic] for failure to

19 have turned over bread to a detainee --

20 A. 1996?

21 Q. I'm sorry. 1992. Did I say that? I beg your pardon. 1992, for

22 failure to have turned over to a detainee by the name of Senad Kenjar some

23 bread which you were to have promised him in exchange for his Seiko watch

24 in Keraterm. Is that the same Seiko watch you took from Senad Kenjar in

25 exchange for the bread?

Page 9900

1 A. That is not correct.

2 Q. What was your understanding of the reason that people were

3 detained in Keraterm? What was the purpose of bringing them in?

4 A. For the purpose of interrogation as to whether they had taken part

5 in the attack on Prijedor, if they were loyal to the Serb authorities,

6 whether they were involved in arms smuggling, whether they had any

7 weapons, whether they had fought on the other side. That was the purpose

8 of the interrogation.

9 Q. So everyone who was brought into Keraterm and detained, and

10 perhaps not released, would have at some point been suspected of some

11 disloyalty to the new Serb government or political entity, or some other

12 form of activity; that would be your explanation?

13 A. Yes.

14 MS. SOMERS: I would ask the usher to distribute Prosecutor's

15 3/250, please. If you would also be kind enough to put one on the ELMO.

16 Thank you.

17 Q. In front of you, Witness DD/6, is a document which does not bear a

18 signature but was taken from the Prijedor collection at the Prijedor

19 Police Station recently, in a seizure not too long ago, and it has a date

20 in the body of it - it is a reference point - and it purports to be

21 composed by Zoran Zigic in connection with an incident you said there were

22 rumours about at Omarska [sic] but that you yourself did not have direct

23 knowledge of.

24 In this statement, which is given to the Ministry of the Interior

25 for the Serbian Republic of BH, Banja Luka, at the Public Security Station

Page 9901

1 Prijedor --

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Deretic.

3 Sorry to interrupt you, Madam Somers.

4 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I haven't so far

5 heard Omarska being mentioned at any point in time. The Prosecutor is now

6 mentioning a statement which was given in Omarska. I really don't know

7 what this is all about.

8 MS. SOMERS: That is an error. It should read "Keraterm." That

9 is my error. Thank you for bringing it to my attention, Counsel.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please continue.

11 MS. SOMERS: At Keraterm. I'm terribly sorry, Witness, if I

12 confused you.

13 Q. This deals with, on 10 June 1992 -- supposedly Zigic says:

14 "I was part of the security at the Keraterm temporary prison.

15 That day, Esad Maroslic was brought in for further processing. I have

16 known that man for years and I know for sure that he is not a nationalist,

17 nor was he involved in anything. I also know that he used to work in

18 Germany and that he has quite a lot of money. I thought of offering to

19 release him for compensation, which I should not have done. He gave me

20 4.000 Deutschmarks and I released him under the condition that he would

21 not leave his house or courtyard. I resolved to do this because my

22 financial situation is really bad. I have eight members --" some

23 difficulty reading this " -- of the family at home... I sincerely regret

24 this action and I will take full responsibility."

25 My question to you is: If in fact this was compiled by Mr. Zigic,

Page 9902

1 there is a statement that says this man, Maroslic, presumably a Muslim,

2 who is being held in Keraterm, was neither a nationalist nor involved in

3 anything. How can you reconcile holding a man who is not a nationalist or

4 involved in anything in a centre which you indicated was dedicated to

5 ferreting out persons who were a threat to the Serb entity?

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic.

7 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, first of all, the

8 question is based on a statement which is not signed at all. We are not

9 sure about the authenticity of this statement. It's a simple photocopy of

10 a document. And the question is based on an assumption, on a mere

11 hypothesis that the individual in question was not a nationalist and so on

12 and so forth, and how he was arrested and things like that. We don't even

13 know whether the witness has any knowledge about that because no question

14 has been asked of him to that effect.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Somers?

16 MS. SOMERS: The thrust of my question, Your Honour, was the fact

17 that this witness has indicated the nature of the reasons for detention.

18 And if in fact this document has any merit, it is suggested by a man who

19 claims to have known the individual for years - it says, "I have known

20 that man for years" - that in fact the man was not in the category of

21 persons that --

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Ms. Somers. Sorry to

23 interrupt you, but the question is "if" the document had been -- no. You

24 always ask two questions. You always have to ask two questions if the

25 document has any value at all, and then later on whether the individual

Page 9903

1 was a nationalist or not.

2 Would you please rephrase your question, Ms. Somers.

3 MS. SOMERS: Certainly, Your Honour.

4 Q. The content of this document, which I am not asking you to vouch

5 for, suggests a premise that a person who is not a nationalist or not

6 involved in anything, which is known or purports to be known to the person

7 writing it or giving it, does not comport or agree with your understanding

8 of why persons were detained in Keraterm.

9 Do you have any notion of how many people may have been in this

10 situation there?

11 A. I don't know the exact number, but there were quite a few of them.

12 There were all kinds of people there. Some were not guilty of anything,

13 and some were released home, and this is what I already indicated. I'm

14 talking about those in respect of whom it was established that they had

15 not taken part in the attack, that they did not have any weapons, that

16 they had signed the loyalty statement, those were released.

17 Q. And if this person were not released but had remained there, not

18 being guilty of anything, does that come into conflict with your

19 understanding of why people were in Keraterm?

20 A. Yes, according to what I -- according to my understanding. But I

21 didn't have any say in that. I didn't take part in the decision-making

22 process.

23 Q. Did you have discretion in when you would open and when you would

24 close the dormitory doors; when you would give out water and when you

25 would give out food? Could you be more lenient or more strict in your own

Page 9904

1 discretion, or what were the guidelines for you?

2 A. No, I was not able to decide. It wasn't up to me to issue

3 decisions. I merely received instructions as to the distribution of the

4 food, the unlocking and locking of the dormitories. I would be given the

5 key and told what to do, and that is how it went.

6 Q. The night of the 24th of July, 1992, did you lock the doors of

7 Room 3? Was that part of your responsibilities before you left?

8 A. Yes. Regardless of what the room was in question, Room 1, 2, or

9 3, I would lock them all. I had -- I would receive the key at the gate,

10 went over to the dormitories, locked them up, and then I would take the

11 key back to that hut which was placed there at the entrance.

12 Q. So that night, 24th July 1992, you in fact locked the dormitory

13 door and then you left; is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You indicated it was about 30 degrees centigrade in that room;

16 quite hot. Did you attempt to ask for any relief for the persons who were

17 in that room before you left; extra water, a little ventilation?

18 A. I said that the outside temperature was 30 degrees. I didn't

19 actually enter the room. We didn't dare go and mix with those detainees,

20 with those people there, if you can understand that.

21 Q. So it could have been hotter than 30 degrees inside; is that

22 right?

23 A. I don't know. I didn't go there. I didn't go inside, but it

24 could have been.

25 Q. Thank you very much.

Page 9905

1 MS. SOMERS: No further questions.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We're now going to have our

3 usual lunch break because I don't think we can finish the witness before

4 that.

5 How much more time do you think you will need, Mr. Deretic?

6 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I want to react.

7 For the purposes of your time, I don't think I will need more than ten

8 minutes. Whether you want me to proceed or whether you think it's better

9 to go and have a break now, it's really up to you. Yes, you also have

10 your questions, of course. But I will be very brief. My questions will

11 be very brief indeed. I just wanted to let you know that.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No, I don't dare ask the

14 interpreters. I don't know what their preferences are, but I think that

15 we will have to work until 1.30, and then we will have worked two hours,

16 and I think this is too much for the interpreters. But anyhow, I think it

17 is always better to have our usual break; otherwise, we will be working

18 under too much pressure.

19 I will now kindly ask the usher to accompany the witness out of

20 the courtroom so that he, too, can have his lunch break.

21 Fifty-minute break.

22 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.

23 --- On resuming at 1.53 p.m.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.

25 Mr. Deretic, your re-examination.

Page 9906

1 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

2 Re-examined by Mr. Deretic:

3 Q. Can you hear me, Witness?

4 A. Yes, I can.

5 MS. SOMERS: Excuse me, Your Honour. I believe that the curtains

6 should be up, although it is private -- I mean, it's a protected, so ...

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. You're quite right. Thank

8 you.

9 Mr. Deretic, please proceed.

10 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Witness DD/6, that critical evening, the 24th of July, 1992, when

12 you, in the evening, sometime between 2100 hours and 2130 hours, when you

13 left the Keraterm compound, did your guard post remain void, empty?

14 A. No.

15 Q. The Prosecutor showed you -- actually, she showed you an official

16 note of the security commander dated the 4th of July, 1992. Did you ever

17 have occasion to see that official note?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Did you know of its contents?

20 A. No.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic, it would be

22 advisable if you could give us the exhibit number. That would facilitate

23 our work. But please proceed.

24 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Yes, of course, Mr. President. It

25 was document number 3/249, Prosecution Exhibit 3/249. It was presented by

Page 9907

1 the Prosecution.

2 Q. As this is a document dating back to the beginning of July, did

3 you see Zoran Zigic at all during that time frame?

4 A. No.

5 Q. You also said at the beginning of your testimony that you would

6 see Zoran Zigic in the Keraterm compound driving a minibus and a moped; is

7 that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You also said that at that time you had contact with him; is that

10 true?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. When you met him, would Zoran Zigic complain to you?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Would he complain about his injury?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What did he say to you on those occasions?

17 A. He said that his hand hurt a great deal and that he didn't like

18 having the bandage on.

19 Q. And two more short questions. Witness, I'm not still quite clear

20 on one of the answers you gave to my question, so let me repeat that

21 question. Did you --

22 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could we please go

23 into private session, on second thought, for a few moments, because I'm

24 going to mention a name.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Let us move into private

Page 9908

1 session.

2 [Private session]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [Open session]

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We are in open session.

21 Judge Fouad Riad has the floor.

22 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

23 Questioned by the Court:

24 JUDGE RIAD: Witness DD/6, good afternoon.

25 A. Good afternoon.

Page 9909

1 JUDGE RIAD: First, I would like to understand a few things

2 better, if you can, for me about it.

3 You mentioned as far as your role was concerned, apparently one of

4 your functions was to prevent, as you said, prevent civilians from getting

5 to the detainees. That was one of your four responsibilities. And in

6 spite of that, people would come in, civilians or others would come in to

7 beat the detainees. That's what I gathered. Did I understand rightly?

8 A. No, not civilians. They were all wearing uniforms. All the

9 people that came in were in uniform and had weapons.

10 JUDGE RIAD: You said exactly they were beaten every day and night

11 by military and reserve police and people coming from outside. Who are

12 these people coming from outside? Anybody would come in to beat anybody?

13 A. Well, those from around Prijedor, from the different units around

14 Prijedor. You didn't know who they were. How can I explain this? They

15 would -- there were various groups from Knin. They were the military and

16 the policemen. They were all in uniform, all these people.

17 JUDGE RIAD: So anybody in uniform can go and beat anybody, any of

18 the detainees, from anywhere?

19 A. Well, they could if we were not able to prevent them, and in those

20 cases, we couldn't prevent them because they were large groups.

21 JUDGE RIAD: I see. You said you could not watch it, and you had

22 to move away. That's all you could do? You could not -- was what your --

23 what was your position in the camp? Were you just a simple guard, or did

24 you have any kind of authority?

25 A. No, no, no kind of authority. Just an ordinary, simple guard.

Page 9910

1 JUDGE RIAD: So there was some kind of hierarchy, then. There was

2 a simple guard, and there would be a commander, because in one case you

3 said, for instance, I think, that -- you informed when it was concerning,

4 I think, Emsud. You said, "It was my duty to lock the dormitories, and I

5 informed the duty officer about the absence of Bahonjic, and he informed

6 the commander."

7 So there was a hierarchy. We know what it means. You are a

8 simple guard, you go to the superior, and the superior goes to other

9 superior. Is that right?

10 A. Yes, precisely so.

11 JUDGE RIAD: Because in another time you said that nobody was

12 superior to another. You were answering that to the Prosecutor. So what

13 is the real, what is the real fact?

14 A. Well, look, it was like this: If there was some private business

15 to attend to like when my mother was ill, then we would leave, whether

16 they were angry at us leaving or not. I don't know if you can understand

17 me there.

18 JUDGE RIAD: I'm trying to.

19 A. We would leave.

20 JUDGE RIAD: You would leave without any permission?

21 A. Yes, because it was my mother's life at stake.

22 JUDGE RIAD: By the way, it was your mother's life at stake, and

23 on the way you went to your lady friends. I mean, what -- so it was not a

24 priority, really, to go to your mother. Did I --

25 A. Well, I went to them. My colleague stayed on, but I left straight

Page 9911

1 away because my mother was my priority. We all love our mothers. I love

2 her most of all in the whole wide world.

3 JUDGE RIAD: Yes, definitely, but perhaps the other lady friends

4 had a priority.

5 Now, I go back to Mr. Zigic. I think you said that he brought

6 food and water in a minivan. Was that his duty? Was he, was he

7 commissioned to bring food and water, or he brought it out of the goodness

8 of his heart?

9 A. I think it was his duty. I'm not quite sure.

10 JUDGE RIAD: It was his duty. And he gave it to everyone, or he

11 would favour certain people with it, only for some friends?

12 A. Well, he gave it to everybody. He didn't favourise, didn't have

13 any favorites.

14 JUDGE RIAD: So it was his duty, it was his function, in your

15 opinion?

16 A. In my opinion, yes.

17 JUDGE RIAD: Now, I just wonder about the -- you said that the

18 Rooms 3 and 4 were added after the attack on Prijedor and after what

19 happened in Kozarac. But Room 1 and 2 existed before; is that right?

20 A. When I came, there was Room 1 and 2, and then later on Rooms 3 and

21 4 were added.

22 JUDGE RIAD: To your knowledge, Room 1 and 2 existed before the

23 attack on Prijedor?

24 A. I don't understand. How do you mean?

25 JUDGE RIAD: When was Room 1 and 2 created? When was the

Page 9912

1 investigation introduced?

2 A. I think it was after the attack on Prijedor and not before.

3 JUDGE RIAD: Not before?

4 A. Do you want me to clarify?

5 JUDGE RIAD: I would be really grateful.

6 A. I was at a checkpoint around Prijedor. It was called Hambarine,

7 the checkpoint at Hambarine. I was not in Prijedor, so I really don't

8 know when this was established.

9 JUDGE RIAD: Good, that's enough as an answer.

10 Now, concerning the night of the 24th of July, you went because it

11 was an urgent call for your mother, and you left the compound at 21 hours.

12 Until you left the compound, there was no sign of something happening?

13 Everything was quiet, or was there some kind of movement and preparation?

14 A. Everything was quiet. I couldn't notice anything.

15 JUDGE RIAD: And when you came back at 4.00 or 5.00 a.m.,

16 everything was already accomplished. You said you saw heaps, heaps of

17 dead bodies, amounting to 15 [sic] corpses, and so on. Everything was

18 already done when you came back?

19 A. Yes.

20 JUDGE RIAD: You did not see live, live action?

21 A. No, I didn't, neither did I know how everything began. I really

22 don't know. I can't say.

23 JUDGE RIAD: And you said -- you also said that you could

24 not -- as far as Mr. Zigic is concerned, he was not there, and you could

25 have seen him or heard him if he was there. And you were mentioning that

Page 9913

1 when you went, that there was a lot of commotion. Could, really, in this

2 great noise and commotion, could you affirm surely that if he was there,

3 you could have seen him or heard him, in the middle of this great -- call

4 it what you want?

5 A. As Zigic always liked to be the centre of attention, I would have

6 had to have seen him and hear him. He is that kind of man, that kind of

7 person. How can I explain this to you? Everything has to revolve around

8 him. Everybody has to look at him. He must always be the centre of

9 attraction.

10 JUDGE RIAD: So you could have, even if it was a big, what you

11 say, killing and shooting and so on, you still could have heard him and

12 seen him? You say you affirm that? Were you looking for him? You were

13 not?

14 A. No. No.

15 JUDGE RIAD: Now, can I -- you used to drink sometimes with

16 Mr. Zigic, but you said that it was better - and I'm just quoting

17 you - "It was better to steer clear from him when he was drunk." What did

18 he do when he was drunk? What was the danger?

19 A. Well, I wouldn't like to be in his company, because then I would

20 have to drink with him, and I don't drink as a rule; I don't drink alcohol

21 as a rule. But if you were with him, he would make you drink. So when

22 you were in his company, I would have to do something that I didn't

23 actually want to do.

24 JUDGE RIAD: I think you added that he would hit you or be

25 friendly and you would never know; it's unpredictable. Did you see him

Page 9914

1 hit anybody when he was drunk, committing any violence?

2 A. I didn't see him hit anyone, but, you know, he would just give him

3 a sort of slap on the neck like this. Perhaps you'll be able to

4 understand me better if I show you. This gesture, sort of, in passing.

5 JUDGE RIAD: Good. At some answer -- in some answer you said, "I

6 got order from my commander to call out two of the detainees to collect

7 bodies onto a heap," I think it was Zlatan, Aco and Ajkic. You received

8 orders. I want just to make sure that there was a discipline. That's

9 right?

10 A. The commander, Zivko Knezevic, was there and he gave the order.

11 He issued the orders. Yes.

12 JUDGE RIAD: But you could still, in spite of this discipline,

13 break the order and say, "I'm going away," any time. Can I understand

14 this difference?

15 A. Well, yes. When he wasn't there, you could, because he was very

16 strict.

17 JUDGE RIAD: When he was there you could not go away; is that

18 right?

19 A. That's right, yes.

20 JUDGE RIAD: And the night you left, he was not there?

21 A. No.

22 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Judge Riad.

24 Witness DD/6, I also have a few questions for you. As regards

25 Emsud Bahonjic, you indicated that there were persons who mistreated him.

Page 9915

1 Do you have any idea as to who those individuals might be, those who used

2 to mistreat him?

3 A. It's difficult for me to explain this to you. All kinds of people

4 would come there, people that I didn't know. Some of them were very big,

5 heavily built, and you have seen me. This was something that I could not

6 prevent. And they were all armed. They could all open fire at any

7 moment.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you. You have partially

9 answered my question. I was going to say -- I was going to ask who those

10 persons were. Actually, you don't know them, you didn't know them?

11 A. Yes, you're quite right, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Let us go back to the evening of

13 the 24th of July. You said that you had left the camp around 9.00, 9.30,

14 and at about the same time the members of the Territorial Defence

15 arrived. They must have arrived around that time. Did you actually see

16 them come to the camp or not?

17 A. Yes, I did.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So at one point in time the

19 members of the TO were coming in and you were leaving?

20 A. Yes, you're correct, Your Honour. They had just arrived, and

21 their leader was there in the hut when I took the keys back.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Speaking of the shooting

23 incident, you told us that it had lasted for about one hour. I'm not sure

24 that I understood you correctly.

25 A. What do you mean, one hour?

Page 9916

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, one hour. As regards the

2 incident involving 50 dead persons, the shooting lasted for about one

3 hour. But maybe I misunderstood your words.

4 A. I didn't say that the shooting lasted for about one hour. I don't

5 know when it started and I don't know when it ended; I just know that it

6 was all over when I came back.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. I must have misunderstood

8 your words, because it didn't actually make sense. Because if you had

9 told me that it had lasted one hour, I would have probably had to ask you

10 how you knew that. But I must have misunderstood your words.

11 You also told us that Bahonjic was a dangerous person. You said

12 that at least twice. Why did you say that? Why was he dangerous?

13 A. Well, he was dangerous for them, not for me, but they considered

14 him to be dangerous. I'm referring to my colleagues, the ones who were

15 doing the same job. I didn't consider him to be dangerous. I didn't

16 consider anyone to be dangerous, for that matter.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But what kind of danger could

18 that be? How dangerous could he have been?

19 A. I really wouldn't know.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So you just heard other people

21 say that those individuals were dangerous, but you don't know anything

22 about the reasons for that?

23 A. No.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] "No"; you mean you didn't know?

25 A. No, I didn't know.

Page 9917

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You have also told us that you

2 woke up at around 4.00 a.m., that you woke up to the sound of shooting.

3 Why do you say that it was 4.00 when you woke up?

4 A. It may have been sometime before that, but I went back between 4

5 and 5 a.m., and it probably took me only 15 minutes to get there, and it

6 was already dawning.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, but I would like to know

8 why you said that it was 4.00 in the morning. Did you look at your

9 watch? Did anyone tell you that it was 4.00? Why are you saying that it

10 was 4.00?

11 A. It was just my assumption because usually at that time it dawns in

12 our area.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you very much. You

14 have answered my question.

15 Witness DD/6, we have no further questions for you. You have

16 answered a number of questions that have been put to you by both parties

17 and the Judges. I would like to thank you for coming here to testify. I

18 would like to wish you a safe journey back to your place of residence. I

19 will ask the usher to take you out of the courtroom.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I also express my gratitude to

21 the Court? It's really been a pleasure for me to testify before you, Your

22 Honour.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you. Please do not move

24 for a while. We have to draw down the blinds first.

25 [The witness withdrew]

Page 9918

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think there are a couple of

2 documents that need to be addressed. Ms. Somers, there have been no

3 similar requests from the Defence, if I'm not mistaken. No, I'm sorry.

4 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. The

5 Defence of Mr. Zigic would like to tender this photograph into evidence.

6 It is D9/4, that it be admitted as a Defence exhibit in this case.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Somers, any objection?

8 MS. SOMERS: No objection, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, then. D9/4 will be

10 admitted into evidence.

11 Ms. Somers, I think you, too, have some documents to tender.

12 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, the Prosecution would ask to have

13 admitted into evidence 3/247, the solemn declaration; 3/248, the list of

14 reserve police officers; 3/249, the official note signed by Sikirica. At

15 this time, the Prosecution will not seek the admission of 3/250. It is

16 part of a larger collection, and we will wait. Thank you.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic, any objections?

18 Just a second, Mr. Simic. It has something to do with the

19 document we're just discussing, Mr. Simic?

20 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Could you please wait for

22 Mr. Deretic to state whether he has any objections or not.

23 Mr. Deretic.

24 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Mr. Zigic's Defence

25 has no objections as to the admittance of the documents identified by

Page 9919

1 3/247, 3/248; however, we should like to express our reservations in

2 respect of the document marked as 3/249 because the Defence has not been

3 provided with the original of the document which is dated the 4th of July,

4 1992. So that is the reason why we object to this document being admitted

5 into evidence as an official document of the Prosecution.

6 As regards 3/250, I don't think I have to state my position on

7 that because the Prosecutor doesn't seem to insist that this document also

8 be admitted into evidence at this point.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, then. Exhibits

10 number 3/247, 3/248, exhibits of the Prosecution, will be admitted into

11 evidence.

12 Ms. Somers, do you wish to respond to Mr. Deretic as regards the

13 document 3/249?

14 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, pursuant to earlier discussions between

15 and amongst the Chamber and the parties, we are prepared to submit the

16 declaration by the investigative official as to the origin and location of

17 the document, and that should cover the nature of the reservation I

18 believe was expressed.

19 I do not have copies, but I would be happy to present -- I'm

20 sorry, I do have copies. I have the original for the Chamber and copies

21 for counsel. It will not have the exhibit number but will indicate the

22 description of the document which is evident from the document itself.

23 And if the Chamber wishes, I can have it, perhaps an "A" exhibit number

24 marked with a breakdown of the new exhibit numbers that were given.

25 May I ask the registrar, please? Thank you.

Page 9920

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Or perhaps you can show the

2 document to Mr. Deretic so that he can check the document himself.

3 MS. SOMERS: The original -- at this time the original is in the

4 evidence room. We would have to bring it down, but it is indicated on the

5 declaration from where it was seized, and I think it has -- it should have

6 the date. I have to check to see.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Somers, that does not

8 resolve the issue. I think it's better for you to meet with Mr. Deretic

9 so that he can see the document today or next week, and then we will

10 discuss it. We will spend far too much time trying to figure out whether

11 it is okay for the document to be admitted or not.

12 MS. SOMERS: I'll just ask through the Chamber of counsel if

13 Mr. Deretic will be here next week, I'm happy do it at his earliest

14 convenience. He indicated the only reservation was as to seeing the

15 original, whatever we have for an original, and I'm happy to do that as

16 soon as he's available.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic, do you want to

18 reply to this?

19 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Unfortunately, I will

20 not be here next week, but I can tell you right away that the Defence of

21 Mr. Zigic will at any rate oppose to the admittance of this official note

22 for following reasons. First of all, it is an official note, and we still

23 do not know whether Zoran Zigic was indeed interviewed, and we do not know

24 the origin of the information which is contained in this official note.

25 On the other hand, we also have problems with the date, the 4th of

Page 9921

1 July, 1992. Later during our case, we will present a document regarding

2 the whereabouts of Mr. Zigic at that time.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Somers, I think that you

4 will have the whole week to discuss the issue, and you can also then show

5 the document to Mr. Deretic.

6 MS. SOMERS: Thank you. I certainly will do that, and if we need

7 to present -- this is, of course, a new observation, it was not the

8 initial one, but I will be very happy to present either a written

9 submission if we need to, or just an oral one. Thank you.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, then. So we will

11 settle the issue involving document 3/249 at some later occasion.

12 Mr. Simic, Krstan Simic, let us hear you.

13 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have only one

14 objection regarding the document 3/248 and 3/249. In the heading of the

15 document -- actually, of both documents, the translation doesn't seem to

16 be accurate. As regards 3/248, the heading reads "RSM Prijedor II," and

17 in the English version, in the brackets, the words which do not exist in

18 the original have been added. The same goes for the document 3/249.

19 Therefore, I should like to ask that the translation be brought in line

20 with the original document.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Somers.

22 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, 3/249 indicates a revised translation

23 and the most recent pronouncement from the Language Services. So I'm not

24 clear that Mr. Zigic -- Mr. Simic, excuse me, I beg your pardon, is on

25 firm ground there.

Page 9922

1 As to 3/248, I see that it appears to be a summary, and I would be

2 very happy to resubmit this for a complete translation. It looks like

3 it's in summary form because the names are in the original language and

4 what was done, I see, is just showing the row -- the translation of the

5 rows at the top.

6 If the Chamber wishes a full translation, I am -- it would be no

7 problem to have it done, just adopt the cell format, giving a translation

8 of the top of each column and the general name of the document. If the

9 Chamber wishes, I will do.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic.

11 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, on the document number

12 3/249, the brackets were added in the English version. Those brackets do

13 not exist in the original document, nor does the original document contain

14 this wording. What I can read in the original is "RSM Prijedor II," and

15 this is everything that we have here. We have the same words in the

16 English translation, "RSM Prijedor II," plus we have the brackets.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, I think we've got

18 lost. You mentioned the exhibit number 3/249, and now you're talking

19 about 3/248. Where are we?

20 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have the same

21 problem in both documents.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Oh, I see. I'm sorry. Yes,

23 please continue.

24 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] So there is a portion of the text

25 which has been added in the English translation and which does not exist

Page 9923

1 in the original document.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. What is the text that

3 you're talking about, the added text?

4 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I'm referring to the brackets in

5 3/248, and the same brackets in 3/249, in the heading of the document.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. But, Mr. Simic, as

7 regards 3/248, you don't want the names and the dates to be translated?

8 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. I just wanted to

9 draw your attention to the mistake.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. Simic. Thank

11 you.

12 Ms. Somers, there seems to be a certain doubt, which can be

13 justified, in my opinion. Perhaps you should submit these once again to

14 the Translation Unit with the objection made by Mr. Simic, and then

15 afterwards we will be able to admit the document into evidence. We will

16 mark it with an "A." What do you think of it, Ms. Somers?

17 MS. SOMERS: [Previous translation continues] ... so there should

18 be no doubt.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, then. Thank you very

20 much, Mr. Simic, for your assistance. I think that we will be able to

21 come up with an accurate version in the end.

22 I don't think that there's anything else that needs to be

23 addressed today. If I'm not mistaken, we will see each other again on the

24 9th in order to continue Mr. Zigic's Defence case. But I can see

25 Mr. Stojanovic on his feet.

Page 9924

1 Mr. Stojanovic, what can you tell us?

2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your

3 Honour. You're quite right. Our next date is the 9th of April. However,

4 I have to tell you what else is on our agenda. We only have three working

5 days that week, and according to our plans, we were -- we intended to hear

6 five witnesses, which is far too many, because I don't think that we will

7 have enough time. Speaking of the decision of the Chamber to call three

8 witnesses who were initially scheduled as Prosecution witnesses concerning

9 that particular week and that particular time, I don't think that we will

10 be able to deal with all those during that week.

11 The week after, in view of the holidays and the decision of the

12 video conferencing, is also very problematic. Your Honours, I think that

13 we will only have Tuesday and Friday as our trial days, that is, the 17th

14 and the 20th of April, because the 16th is a day off. We will have some

15 protected witnesses as well, and I don't think that we will be able to

16 involve the Witnesses and Victims Protection Unit, who do not work on

17 weekends, so we will have problems with bringing the witnesses here.

18 Then there will be a long break for them because of the

19 videolink. And I think, and through no fault of ours, I think that we

20 will not be able to use many days during that period of time, because we

21 have some four or five days off, holidays, that is.

22 We also have the fourth week, from the 23rd to the 27th, and we

23 wanted to hear expert witnesses during that week. We have a graphologist,

24 a forensic medicine specialist, and perhaps also a psychologist that we

25 want to examine during that week. Perhaps one of the witnesses could be

Page 9925

1 moved; however, it is my concern that in view of the holidays and the fact

2 that we have a videolink testimony, and also in view of my colleagues, it

3 will be very difficult for us to organise ourselves, especially with

4 respect to the Victims and Witnesses Protection Unit. So I would like to

5 know whether there is any possibility of moving the videolink one day

6 ahead or later. I know it's a big problem, but I don't know about the

7 preparations, in what stage they are at this point, for the videolink.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Stojanovic, you mentioned a

9 week with three working days. I don't know what week you are talking

10 about.

11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] It's our next term, that is, the

12 9th, the 10th, and the 11th of April. There is a Plenary Session

13 scheduled for the 12th of April, and on the 13th there is the Good

14 Friday. It's a holiday here. We scheduled five witnesses for those days,

15 but I don't know whether it will be possible, because the Easter holidays

16 stretch over to the 16th, which is also part of the week which actually

17 belongs to us.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Stojanovic, but at the

19 time we were drafting the schedule, we were perfectly aware of the fact

20 that the week does not have five working days.

21 There's one other matter that we have to take into consideration.

22 I don't know. Perhaps Ms. Mackintosh could tell us something more about

23 the possibility of moving the video conference in order to facilitate

24 things.

25 LEGAL OFFICER: Yes. I spoke to the Victims and Witnesses Unit,

Page 9926

1 who indicated that for Mr. Stojanovic's witnesses to testify on Tuesday,

2 the 17th, they will have to travel on the Thursday before Easter, which is

3 rather inconvenient with them. The registry is prepared to move the

4 videolink forward a day, for the 17th and 18th, so that your witnesses

5 could be heard on the Thursday and Friday of that week. I mentioned it to

6 the Prosecution, and they were going to get back to me on whether they

7 will also be able to accommodate that day.

8 MS. SOMERS: May I respond to --

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Ms. Somers will respond.

10 MS. SOMERS: Thank you. At the beginning of the session, Your

11 Honour, we did inform Ms. Mackintosh that I have spoken with our

12 representatives, who will be travelling to the videolink, and they are

13 willing to shuffle their schedule around to accommodate this need. So

14 yes, so that they will be up and running for the 17th and 18th for

15 videolink.

16 I do have one other point I would like to ask, whenever the

17 Chamber will allow me, on one of the representations made by

18 Mr. Stojanovic about witnesses, so if I may have a direction from you.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So I think that as regards the

20 possibility of moving the videolink forward a day, we do not have a

21 problem with that; at least, the Chamber doesn't have a problem with

22 that. But I may be lost. Was there anything else that you wished to

23 address, Ms. Somers?

24 MS. SOMERS: If I may, Your Honour. There was a mention on

25 page - let me just see - 92, line 17 and 18, about Court witnesses, and I

Page 9927

1 distinctly recall a discussion that we had earlier that the witnesses

2 referred to were not Court witnesses but rather Defence witnesses, on

3 whose behalf, I believe, there was an order issued by this Chamber, but

4 they are not Court witnesses under Rule 98. That was my understanding,

5 and I just wanted to have clarification so we would know how to approach

6 those witnesses should they, in fact, come. The Defence had some

7 difficulty in commanding the presence of persons who had been listed as

8 Prosecution witnesses and asked for an order from the Chamber.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We didn't ask for the presence

10 of that witness on behalf of the Chamber pursuant to Article [as

11 interpreted] 98, no. We only summoned the witness to appear. But for the

12 Defence, you have the decision of the 16th of March this year, which I

13 believe is quite clear.

14 MS. SOMERS: I do, Your Honour, and therefore I was concerned when

15 Mr. Stojanovic said, "Speaking of the decision of the Chamber to call

16 three witnesses who were initially scheduled as Prosecution witnesses ..."

17 I wanted to make quite sure that I did understand the Chamber's order and

18 that they are Defence witnesses -- that the Defence is seeking the

19 assistance of the Chamber in commanding their presence as Defence

20 witnesses. They are not called by the Chamber. And that was what I was

21 hoping for clarification on from the Chamber.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You understood it well.

23 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, there is only one point. Just so that

24 the Chamber knows, we do not have an order, an exact confirmed order of

25 witnesses, and if Mr. Stojanovic would be kind enough, before the close of

Page 9928

1 business today, to give that to us so we can be ready for the next set of

2 witnesses, we would appreciate that.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Stojanovic. You wish

4 to reply to Ms. Somers? Is there anything else that you wish to bring up

5 before we finish?

6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. As regards our

7 obligations, I believe that we were quite fair, even more fair than the

8 other side. We provided them with the appropriate information 15 days

9 ahead. I must admit that I learned about some Prosecution witnesses on

10 the day they were supposed to testify. We have provided the list 10 or 15

11 days ahead of time. The way I understand your list, the time frame is

12 seven days ahead. I believe I have done even more than that. I still

13 haven't provided the information for the third group, but I don't think it

14 is proper at this time for the Prosecution to insist. We still have too

15 many current problems that we have to deal with.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Stojanovic, thank you

17 very much. What are your other issues?

18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I think that if

19 we move the videolink forward a day, I think it would be helpful for us,

20 but I really don't see how we will be able to start on the 9th --

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Stojanovic, if the registry

22 tells us that it is possible, that is how the Chamber will rule.

23 What are the other questions that you want to address?

24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think, Your Honour, I have

25 finished.

Page 9929

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Somers, anything else?

2 MS. SOMERS: No. I will ask Mr. Stojanovic privately about the

3 order of the witnesses. Thank you.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. You could have done

5 it already.

6 So we will have a one-week break and then we will resume. I hope

7 you will be able to find an agreement as regards technical matters. If

8 you have any doubts, any problems, please contact Ms. Mackintosh who can

9 always notify us of any technical issues that need to be dealt with.

10 We do not have anything else to discuss? Yes Mr. Fila.

11 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I wanted you to finish

12 with the routine matters.

13 As you know, and it would be well to remind ourselves, at one

14 point of the testimony of Mr. Delic who was a Defence witness for Radic,

15 the question arose as to two terms used. One was the "razvodnik straze"

16 term, guard shift leader, "razvodnik straze"; and the second was the shift

17 leader, "sef smjene." So those two terms.

18 I have received, and I will inform Ms. Somers, a memorandum which

19 the Translation Service sent to you. The problem was contained in the

20 following: What Ms. Somers read out was what she asked. Then in the

21 B/C/S, it was translated differently. Ms. Somers asked, "What is a shift

22 leader?" And in the B/C/S, the interpretation of that which was given to

23 Mr. Delic was "razvodnik straze," and in the memo, they put that right

24 now, a correction.

25 However, a problem remains. This is a quotation given by

Page 9930

1 Ms. Somers. She was quoting me, my question. Ms. Somers was quoting me

2 and my question to Mr. Delic whether any shift leaders existed, and that

3 he said no, that his answer was no. However, what I asked him was, did

4 the razvodnik straze exist, and he said no, meaning guard shift leader.

5 Now, Ms. Somers quoted what she saw appearing on the screen, and

6 now we have a problem. What is the value of everything that -- the worth

7 of everything that has entered into the LiveNote? Ms. Somers would not

8 have quoted me incorrectly because she doesn't do that; and secondly, she

9 was quoting what she had seen on the screen as being my words.

10 Now I am asking myself whether we ought to put the previous

11 section right, too, which brings me to two questions: Is the Trial

12 Chamber aware of the problem in its entirety, which is very worrying for

13 me; and what is the value of everything recorded on that particular page

14 of the transcript? How do we assess its worth?

15 So, do I call witness Delic again to testify, or will the Trial

16 Chamber make another decision? I don't mind, but we must clear this

17 matter up. Thank you.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Fila. Thank you

19 for bringing up that question. It is perhaps my fault, but yes, the memo

20 did reach me from the Translation Service, but there were certain

21 developments which I was not abreast of. So perhaps I will see how

22 matters stand, and when we take our work up again next week, I'll inform

23 you of how the situation stands and what we're going to do. Either we're

24 going to recall the witness Mr. Delic - that was my first reaction; if he

25 was available, that's what I said first - or the other possibility is that

Page 9931

1 I think that we all more or less agree that there was some of this

2 difficulty in the translation and interpretation which shifted the answers

3 around.

4 So we shall take that up and we'll give you an answer, Mr. Fila,

5 in due course. Is that all right? I hope so.

6 And having said that, we're going to adjourn for the weekend and

7 next week's work.

8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.54 p.m., to

9 be reconvened on Monday, the 9th day of

10 April, 2001, at 9.20 a.m.
















Page 9932












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.