1 Monday, 19 July 2004

2 [Appeal Proceedings]

3 [Open session]

4 [The appellants entered court]

5 [The appellant Kvocka not present in court]

6 --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.

7 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Well, good morning all. Madam Registrar,

8 will you please call the case next on the list.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Case number

10 IT-98-30/1-A, the Prosecutor versus Miroslav Kvocka, Mladjo Radic, Zoran

11 Zigic and Dragoljub Prcac.

12 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: I should first find out if the equipment is

13 functioning. Can I be heard in Australia?

14 CHIEF MAGISTRATE CAHILL: Good evening, Your Honour. My name is

15 Ron Cahill. I am Chief Magistrate of Canberra, Australia. So I hope you

16 can hear me clearly.

17 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Thank you, Mr. Cahill.

18 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: We should, I think, take the opportunity to

19 introduce ourselves as we are a moving institution. Perhaps before the

20 business of the day begins I should introduce this Bench to you. My name

21 is Shahabuddeen. I am presiding. On my right is Vice-President Pocar.

22 On his right is Judge Guney. On my left is Judge Mumba, and on her left

23 is Judge Weinberg de Roca.

24 CHIEF MAGISTRATE CAHILL: Good evening to you all from Australia.

25 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Now, I mentioned the communications system,

1 and I am pleased to hear that it is functioning. But may I in the

2 customary way more particularly inquire if I am being heard in a language

3 that they understand by the appellants in this case. Yes? Thank you.

4 Am I being heard also by counsel for the appellants? And by

5 counsel for the Prosecution? And of course by the interpreters.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Thank you. Now, so as to have the case

8 properly constituted, may I take the appearances. This morning I

9 received a letter from Mr. Krstan Simic indicating that for one reason or

10 another neither he nor his client, Mr. Kvocka, will be here today.

11 So may I turn to Mr. Mladjo Radic and ask for any appearances on

12 his behalf. Is there any appearance? For Mr. Radic?

13 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I am Toma Fila

14 representing Mr. Radic.

15 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Any appearances for Mr. Zigic?

16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.

17 Slobodan Stojanovic, an attorney from Belgrade, representing Mr. Zigic.

18 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Thank you. Then the appearances for

19 Mr. Prcac.

20 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. I am

21 Jovan Simic, attorney from Belgrade, representing Mr. Dragoljub Prcac.

22 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: I would turn to the Prosecution for

23 appearances.

24 MS. BRADY: Good morning. Good morning, Your Honours. Helen

25 Brady appearing on behalf of the Prosecution, and with me Mr. David Re

1 and Ms. Norul Rashid, and our case manager is Lourdes Galicia.

2 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Thank you. Mr. Magistrate, may I put in a

3 word of introduction.

4 We are here today pursuant to orders issued by the Appeals

5 Chamber on 25 June 2004 and 14 July 2004, respectively, to hear the

6 additional evidence of witness KV2 as a Court witness. This has been

7 made possible through the kind cooperation of the authorities of the

8 Commonwealth of Australia. So this Branch thanks the authorities of the

9 Commonwealth of Australia for making these arrangements, and in

10 particular for making your valuable services available, Chief Magistrate.

11 This is, in fact, the first time that the ICTY is, I think,

12 taking evidence by videolink with the participation of a judicial officer

13 assigned by the State in which the evidence is to be given. We believe

14 that it is possible for the Australian regime and the Tribunal's regime

15 to co-exist.

16 We appreciate, Mr. Chief Magistrate, that you have to comply with

17 the Australian law, as stated, I believe, in the International War Crimes

18 Tribunals Act of 1995. I'm glad to say that for our part, we see no

19 reason for supposing that that compliance is at variance with the

20 essentials of our procedures.

21 So I shall now resume the necessary facts. The case on appeal

22 was heard orally during the week 23 to 26 March 2004. Two additional

23 witnesses had been ordered to testify in the appeal brought the appellant

24 Mr. Zigic. One of these did so. The other one, a Court witness, was not

25 available. It was ordered that this witness, Witness KV2, would testify

1 as soon as the necessary arrangements were made. With the courteous

2 cooperation of the Commonwealth of Australia, arrangements have now been

3 made for him to testify by videolink from the Commonwealth.

4 Witness KV2 -- when Witness KV2 testifies -- it was ordered that

5 the Appeals Chamber would hear the evidence of two Prosecution witnesses

6 in rebuttal by the Scheduling Order of 14 July 2004; their testimonies

7 would be taken tomorrow and Wednesday.

8 KV2 is a witness of the Appeals Chamber, as I have said. By

9 orders dated 2 July and 14 July 2004, this witness was granted the

10 pseudonym KV2 and was allowed to testify with facial and voice

11 distortion. May I remind all parties to use the pseudonym at all times

12 during the hearing.

13 Mr. Chief Magistrate, it is necessary, I believe, for you to

14 administer the Australian oath. May I invite you to do so without

15 calling the witness's name. Thank you.

16 CHIEF MAGISTRATE CAHILL: Thank you. Mr. President, I also have

17 an authorisation from the relevant minister of state [inaudible]

18 authorising the taking of such evidence. So I have that here with me. I

19 also have copies of the orders you mentioned dated 25 June 2004. So

20 without further ado, I will arrange to administer an affirmation to the

21 Witness KV2, having called him into court. We're going to just do that

22 now.

23 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Thank you, Chief Magistrate.

24 CHIEF MAGISTRATE CAHILL: We've had the witness outside the

25 courtroom during this part of the proceedings.

1 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: I see. I see.

2 CHIEF MAGISTRATE CAHILL: Yes. Well, the witness is now here.

3 You will be known as KV2. Right. So Mr. KV2, perhaps you could

4 administer the affirmation according to Australian law.

5 THE WITNESS: [Inaudible]

6 CHIEF MAGISTRATE CAHILL: Take a seat.

7 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. Chief Magistrate --

8 CHIEF MAGISTRATE CAHILL: We have administered the affirmation.

9 Witness KV2 is now in our witness box and he has the headphones on so he

10 will be able to have the evidence interpreted to him in his own language

11 and his answers in his own language.

12 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Thank you very much, Mr. Chief Magistrate.

13 Would you have any difficulty if, in order to comply with our own regime

14 here, our representative there were to administer the solemn declaration

15 required by our Rules?

16 CHIEF MAGISTRATE CAHILL: Not at all. I'll ask --

17 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Thank you.

18 CHIEF MAGISTRATE CAHILL: -- of the Tribunal to do that now.

19 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Thank you.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

21 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

22 WITNESS: Witness KV2

23 [Witness appeared via videolink]

24 [Witness answered through interpretation]

25 CHIEF MAGISTRATE CAHILL: So the oath has been done in the

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1 witness's own language.

2 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Thank you, Mr. Chief Magistrate. Now, we

3 have a technical problem of possible disclosure of the name of the

4 witness through the accidental electronic procedures of a videolink

5 conference. I have to confess that I don't myself comprehend these

6 matters exactly. So what I propose is this -- that our representative

7 there is an officer of this Tribunal, and our usher here is also an

8 officer of this Tribunal. So could I ask our representative there to

9 identify himself or herself and to write down the name of the witness on

10 a piece of paper, to show the witness that piece of paper and then to

11 show it to you, Mr. Chief Magistrate.

12 CHIEF MAGISTRATE CAHILL: Yes, go ahead. Madam Registrar's here.

13 Well, I think the witness has been shown his name on a piece of paper.

14 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Yes.

15 CHIEF MAGISTRATE CAHILL: We will not say it orally. If I can

16 look at it, then we can --

17 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Thank you. Thank you.

18 CHIEF MAGISTRATE CAHILL: Yes. Well, I am aware of the witness's

19 name and also --

20 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Ah, cut off. No transmission. Ah, there we

21 are.

22 CHIEF MAGISTRATE CAHILL: I will say that again. I was saying I

23 am now aware on this piece of paper of the witness's true name and also

24 his date of birth, and we'll keep that in a closed condition and return

25 it to the registrar.

1 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Yes. Well, now --

2 CHIEF MAGISTRATE CAHILL: For all intents and purposes, now KV2.

3 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: May I ask the usher here to do likewise, to

4 show the name of the witness -- I don't know what to do. Thank you.

5 Thank you. We had a technical problem which I've solved.

6 So may I ask our usher to show the name of the witness to counsel

7 on both sides and then to the Bench.

8 Now, may I address a further word to the Registrar down there and

9 to the usher here, and that is to say that we are proceeding on the basis

10 that you're both officers of the court and you know the purpose of these

11 proceedings and the identity of the witness to be examined today.

12 CHIEF MAGISTRATE CAHILL: And I have that indication from the

13 Registrar here.

14 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Thank you. Thank you very much.

15 Then, Mr. Chief Magistrate, may I then proceed with some

16 questions which I would put to the witness as a witness of the Court.

17 Questioned by the Court:

18 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Now, in June, July of the year in question,

19 there -- what part of the world did you live in, that is to say, 1992?

20 What part of the world did you live in?

21 A. In Bosnia and Herzegovina.

22 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Now, did anything unusual happen to you at

23 that time?

24 A. I don't know what you mean "unusual."

25 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Ah. Were you taken anyplace?

1 THE INTERPRETER: I'm afraid the interpreter couldn't hear the

2 answer.

3 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Would it be possible to have us look at the

4 witness? Make the technicians could be of help at this point.

5 CHIEF MAGISTRATE CAHILL: I wonder if the witness could keep his

6 voice up because it's got to go all the way back by satellite.

7 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: We can't see the witness at all.

8 CHIEF MAGISTRATE CAHILL: Are you able to see now, Mr. President?

9 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: No, Mr. Chief Magistrate. We can't see the

10 witness. I'm sure it will be appreciated --

11 CHIEF MAGISTRATE CAHILL: The technician will work on it at this

12 end.

13 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Oh, Mr. Chief Magistrate, I'm told here that

14 we would need a break of ten minutes in order to direct the cameras to

15 the witness.

16 CHIEF MAGISTRATE CAHILL: All right. Well, let's have that

17 break.

18 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Let's have a break. We suspend then for ten

19 minutes to allow for the technicians to do their work.

20 CHIEF MAGISTRATE CAHILL: Thank you.

21 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: We're suspended at this time.

22 --- Break taken at 10.00 a.m.

23 --- On resuming at 10.33 a.m.

24 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Yes. The session stands resumed.

25 CHIEF MAGISTRATE CAHILL: We will arrange for the witness to be

1 brought into court. He is now coming into court. Are you now able to

2 see the witness, Mr. President?

3 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Thank you. Thank you. No, we're not

4 able -- we're not able to see the witness.

5 We shall resume from where we left off. We will call you

6 Witness KV2. I think you said that in June, July 1992, you lived in

7 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Then -- and I was asking you whether at that

10 time anything unusual happened to you, and you had a problem over the

11 word "unusual," and I corrected myself by explaining that I meant whether

12 you were taking anywhere. Were you?

13 A. Yes, I was.

14 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Where were you taken to?

15 A. I was taken to Keraterm.

16 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Uh-huh. What was Keraterm?

17 A. Keraterm used to be a ceramics factory.

18 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: What was it at the time when you arrived

19 there? What was it being used for?

20 A. People who were questioned were taken there.

21 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Then did you remain at Keraterm or did you

22 go somewhere else? Were you taken somewhere else?

23 A. I only spent two weeks in Keraterm.

24 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter couldn't make out the rest of

25 the witness's answer.

1 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Were you taken anywhere else from Keraterm?

2 A. Yes. Two weeks later they took me to Omarska.

3 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: What was Omarska being used for?

4 A. There were other young people who had been taken to Omarska to be

5 questioned there.

6 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Were they taken under arrest?

7 A. Yes.

8 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Yes. Did you -- let me show you a sketch

9 model which has been admitted in this -- in these proceedings as

10 Exhibit P3148. You will see it appearing on the screen before you in a

11 few seconds. Tell me when you see it.

12 THE INTERPRETER: The witness's answer wasn't audible.

13 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: I don't think the witness gave an answer.

14 Well then, we shall proceed without the sketch. Unless it --

15 [Appeals Chamber and registrar confer]

16 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Oh, you can see the sketch.

17 THE INTERPRETER: There was no audible answer.

18 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Can that be corrected? Can we get some

19 audibility? We have audibility now?

20 Can you hear me, Witness? I can't hear it.

21 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter can't hear the witness's

22 answer.

23 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Madam Registrar, is the problem being

24 solved?

25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, the technicians in Australia are

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1 working to re-establish the volume.

2 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: How is it going there, Madam Registrar?

3 THE REGISTRAR: We're re-establishing the link as we speak, Your

4 Honour. So it will take a few seconds, and we'll see whether the volume

5 is reinstalled.

6 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Thank you. Oh, yes, yes. Witness, can you

7 hear me?

8 A. Yes, I can hear you.

9 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Then I was asking you to look at the sketch

10 model which is before you. Does it correspond to anything that you know

11 of?

12 A. There are six squares on the sketch.

13 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Yes. Do those squares correspond to any

14 building that you're familiar with?

15 A. I think there's the building where the kitchen was located and

16 the site that was in front of the building.

17 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Were you taken into that building?

18 A. People who were questioned were detained in that building.

19 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: In what room were you taken into?

20 A. I don't know the exact number, but it was on a floor. It was

21 upstairs.

22 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: If you use this model, would it be A3 or A4

23 or A1 or A6?

24 A. I think were taken up to the floor to be questioned there.

25 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Right. Now, at Omarska did you see a man

1 called Mr. Becir Medunjanin?

2 A. Yes, I did.

3 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Is he alive today?

4 A. No, he isn't.

5 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: He died?

6 A. When we were in that house, from that day onwards soldiers cut

7 his throat. We saw the body which was prostrated on the ground in front

8 of us.

9 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Well, would you like to tell us what

10 happened, how his throat was cut?

11 A. I can't say the exact date, but when I was in Omarska, we were

12 taken to the house. It was raining on that day. They took in all the

13 people who were outside. I was taken to the "white house" from that

14 building. There were other people in the "white house," people who had

15 been beaten and who were lying on the ground. Then there was some

16 confusion and some fighting between a group of soldiers and people they

17 had taken out of the "white house."

18 Afterwards -- it was a very small house, and there were about 60

19 people in the house. There were about three small rooms in that "white

20 house."

21 They then brought Mr. Medunjanin, his wife, and his son there.

22 They had previously been beaten. They were bruised. They had bruises on

23 their faces. They then called him out in front of the "white house" and

24 started beating him. Naturally we didn't -- we couldn't watch this, but

25 you could hear him being beaten.

1 Later on, we were to go outside -- when we went outside, we saw

2 his body and a puddle of blood beneath his body.

3 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: I regret that we have another malfunction.

4 We can now resume.

5 Then -- your last words were that "We -- when we went outside, we

6 saw his body and a puddle of blood beneath his body." Would you like to

7 go on from there.

8 A. Yes. There was his corpse in a puddle of blood. The soldiers

9 said that everyone would meet the same fate if they didn't recognise the

10 Serbian army, et cetera, they did not admit to the Serbian army.

11 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Now, can you tell us who cut Becir

12 Medunjanin's throat?

13 A. I can't tell you the name exactly, but in the group of people who

14 turned up, we weren't allowed to watch what was happening. That's why I

15 can't tell you the exact name, but it was someone in the group of people.

16 These people came with the intention to find this person.

17 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Now, when his throat was cut, his head

18 remained attached to his body?

19 A. Yes, it did.

20 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Now, did you know Mr. Becir Medunjanin

21 previously?

22 A. I didn't know him before.

23 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Did you know Mr. Zigic previously? Did you

24 see him?

25 A. I saw him while I was in Keraterm for 15 days.

1 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: I see. Did you see a man called Fadil

2 Avdagic -- Avdagic? Perhaps I'm now pronouncing the name correctly.

3 Fadil Avdagic.

4 A. Yes.

5 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Did you see him?

6 A. Yes. He was also in the "white house."

7 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: I see.

8 [Appeals Chamber confers]

9 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Could I ask you one last question. Did you

10 see what happened with Mr. Becir -- Mr. Becir's body? How was it

11 disposed of?

12 A. I didn't personally see what happened with the body, but

13 afterwards, after, people went inside to clean everything up.

14 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Okay. Then I'll turn the matter over to

15 counsel. First there would be counsel for Mr. Zigic.

16 Oh, I beg your pardon. Just one moment. Judge Guney has a

17 question or two to ask.

18 JUDGE GUNEY: Witness KV2, could you please tell me who was the

19 killer of Becir Medunjanin. Did you see the one who killed him? Thank

20 you.

21 A. As I have already said, I did not personally see the person who

22 killed him, but it was one of the men in the group of soldiers that was

23 there.

24 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Then, Mr. Stojanovic, may I invite you to

25 ask any questions at this time.

1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Could I

2 please be assisted by the interpreter. A name is missing.

3 [In English] "It was one of the men in the group of soldiers that

4 was there."

5 [Interpretation] We don't know who this refers to, so it's

6 missing from the transcript.

7 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. Stojanovic, I believe that is what the

8 witness said, that it was one of the men in the group of soldiers but

9 that he didn't know who it was. Yes.

10 Examined by Mr. Stojanovic:

11 Q. [Interpretation] Witness KV2, would you please tell me whether

12 you gave any statements to the Prosecution at some time.

13 A. Yes, I did.

14 Q. I shall try to simplify the problem since the visual means are

15 imperfect, but I would like to show the witness the statement he gave to

16 the Prosecution, and I will read the last sentence from his statement

17 dated the 22nd of September, 1998.

18 [In English] "I am prepared to come and testify in open court

19 before the International Criminal Tribunal at The Hague, and I am

20 prepared to repeat everything I have stated in my statement."

21 [Interpretation] This is the last sentence in that statement. Do

22 you remember that, Witness?

23 A. Yes, I do.

24 Q. I can't see the answer -- oh, it's okay now. I can also quote

25 certain passages from that statement, but I'll try to avoid the technical

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1 difficulties we are having. You stated very clearly that Duca Knezovic

2 cut off Becir Medunjanin's head, and you were at a distance of one to one

3 and a half metres from that spot.

4 A. Yes. I was in the "white house" when that happened.

5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I beg Your Honours for some

6 patience.

7 Q. I will read also what you said on page 9.

8 [In English] "I know it was raining the day Becir was killed. I

9 saw Zigic in the camp the same afternoon, but after the incident. I'm

10 positive Zigic was not one of the persons participating in the beating

11 and killing of Becir. However, the same day, I saw Zigic call out three

12 or four rich persons and who had their own businesses."

13 [Interpretation] Then you go and mention the names Asef

14 Kapetanovic, et cetera. Do you still stand by what you said then?

15 A. Yes, do I.

16 Q. In other words, that Zigic did not participate in any way in the

17 killing of Becir Medunjanin, but that he did participate in the beating

18 of some other persons.

19 A. I stand by that, yes.

20 Q. Thank you very much. Was Becir Medunjanin's son present in the

21 "white house"?

22 A. Yes, his son was in the "white house."

23 Q. When you saw him, what was happening to him? Can you tell us

24 anything in greater detail about that, what was happening at the time?

25 A. We didn't see that anything was happening then because we were

1 taken out of the "white house" to the pista very soon after that.

2 Q. On the basis of what you said a moment ago, is it correct to say

3 that Zigic was not one of the group of people who took part in the

4 beating and killing of Becir Medunjanin?

5 A. He was not in the "white house," but after that I did see him in

6 Omarska myself.

7 Q. [Microphone not activated]

8 [In English] "At the time he was wearing a white shirt and a

9 brown coloured suit. He has -- he had his black shoes on."

10 A. Who are you referring to?

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. I'm referring to Becir Medunjanin.

14 A. I think that is what he was wearing, but I'm not quite sure.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. I seem to be

17 having problems with the microphone.

18 Q. Did you hear that Becir Medunjanin's son was beaten at that time?

19 A. His wife and his son were brought there one or two nights prior

20 to the father being killed. After, they brought Becir Medunjanin in too,

21 and his son had been beaten before that.

22 Q. Can you remember anyone else being present in the "white house"

23 either among the people who you found there when you arrived or who came

24 together with you, at the same time as you?

25 A. Those were mostly people that were brought to the "white house."

1 There was my uncle, who was in Omarska at the same time as me, and

2 myself. He was also in the "white house," of course.

3 Q. Was Abdulah Brkic there?

4 MR. RE: Your Honours --

5 (Redacted)

6 (Redacted)

7 (Redacted)

8 (Redacted)

9 (Redacted)

10 (Redacted)

11 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Well -- I see. I see. I understand you.

12 Mr. Stojanovic, counsel has drawn your attention to an important

13 element concerning disclosure of names.

14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Abdulah Brkic is

15 not a protected witness, whether Fadil Avdagic was there. I just used

16 another name, mentioning Mr. Brkic, who is not a protected witness.

17 MR. RE: Your Honours, could I ask that we just go into closed

18 session for a moment.

19 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Yes. Closed session is ordered.

20 [Private session]

21 (Redacted)

22 (Redacted)

23 (Redacted)

24 (Redacted)

25 (Redacted)

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6 [Open session]

7 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honour.

8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Do you know Azedin Oklopcic, a teacher, a youngish man?

10 A. I didn't know him.

11 Q. How well do you know Fadil Avdagic, and do you know him at all?

12 A. I do know him.

13 Q. And finally, do you know Zigic?

14 A. I didn't know Zigic, but I did see him.

15 Q. Let me remind you of your statement. I think you said that you

16 had a small shop close to the taxi station and that earlier you would see

17 Zigic quite frequently as a taxi driver there.

18 A. If I saw him, it doesn't mean to say that I knew him.

19 Q. Perhaps our language is imperfect in that sense, to know someone.

20 Maybe I should have said would you know his face. I believe you didn't

21 know him personally, but did you know him by sight? Did you know him by

22 sight? That is my question.

23 A. Yes, I do know him by sight.

24 Q. Thank you very much.

25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

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1 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. Fila, would you have any questions?

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.

3 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you. We have no questions.

4 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. Simic?

5 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] We have no questions either, Your

6 Honour.

7 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Then I turn to the Prosecution.

8 Examined by Mr. Re:

9 Q. Mr. Witness KV2, can you see me and hear me quite clearly?

10 A. I can hear you and see you.

11 Q. You were, in 1992, living in Prijedor and a law-abiding citizen

12 who was arrested by armed soldiers who came to your house and took you

13 away, weren't you?

14 A. Yes, that's right.

15 Q. And when the soldiers came, they beat you with iron bars,

16 electric cables, and rifle butts for maybe 15 or 20 minutes, didn't they?

17 A. Yes, you're right.

18 Q. And you were taken from there to the Prijedor Police Station

19 where you were interrogated and forced to sign a statement, a false

20 statement, that you were a member of the Green Berets, weren't you?

21 A. Yes.

22 MR. RE: Could we just move into private session for one moment,

23 please.

24 [Private session]

25 (Redacted)

1 (Redacted)

2 (Redacted)

3 (Redacted)

4 (Redacted)

5 (Redacted)

6 (Redacted)

7 (Redacted)

8 (Redacted)

9 (Redacted)

10 (Redacted)

11 [Open session]

12 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honour.

13 MR. RE:

14 Q. Being taken from your house by these armed soldiers and beaten

15 was a terrifying ordeal for you, wasn't it?

16 A. Yes, of course.

17 Q. At the police station, apart from being forced to sign a false

18 statement, you were also beaten by being kicked and punched by men with

19 an iron bar, weren't you?

20 A. Of course.

21 Q. That too was horrifically terrifying for you because you didn't

22 know what happen, wasn't it?

23 A. Yes, you're right.

24 Q. You spent at least five days in the basement of the police

25 station and during that time the soldiers and police came in every day,

1 sometimes on the hour, to beat you, didn't they?

2 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Are you moving at this time, Mr. Stojanovic?

3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour. These

4 are excessively leading questions to the witness, in our submission. I

5 think it was even in the Tadic case that Her Honour Judge McDonald

6 allowed leading, but she said you can lead them but not drag them. And I

7 think these questions are too leading for this occasion. Thank you.

8 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. Stojanovic --

9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [In English] -- beyond scope.

10 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Yes. Mr. Stojanovic, counsel is

11 cross-examining, and I would myself be inclined to feel that we ought to

12 allow him to go a little further.

13 MR. RE:

14 Q. Mr. KV2, I was asking you about your time in the basement at the

15 police station. That was before you were taken to Omarska. You were

16 beaten there on a daily basis by soldiers and the police, and that, too,

17 was an absolutely terrifying ordeal for you, wasn't it?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. I'm sorry, I said Omarska. I meant Keraterm, before you were

20 taken to Omarska.

21 A. Yes, you're quite right.

22 Q. When you arrived at Keraterm, the people there took all your

23 valuables from you.

24 A. Yes. The soldiers took everything away.

25 Q. You were imprisoned in what could only be described as horrific

1 conditions. You were fed maybe once every 24 to 48 hours and only fed

2 one slice of bread per day on some days, weren't you?

3 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Counsel, do you think it might be possible

4 for you to apply a little restraint to those questions. There is

5 something in what Mr. Stojanovic said, that you may lead the witness but

6 not drag the witness.

7 MR. RE: I'm attempting to do this as quickly as possible. There

8 is a route I'm going, and it will take me a lot longer if I ask

9 open-ended questions.

10 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: I appreciate that, but can you try. An

11 objection has been taken on the other side. I have sought in my own way

12 to allow you to proceed, but not too far.

13 MR. RE: May it please the Court.

14 Q. Mr. KV2, the point I'm -- the point about this is you were

15 confined in horrific conditions in Keraterm and not properly fed, not

16 provided with proper sanitation, and at the same time people were being

17 beaten and murdered while you were there.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And just like your experience in the police station, this was an

20 horrific, terrifying ordeal for you and all the other people contain at

21 Keraterm, wasn't it? And you didn't know whether you would live or die

22 from day to day, did you?

23 A. Yes, you're right.

24 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Yes.

25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

1 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.

2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] After this, just if I were to

3 observe this on the side, I would get the impression that Mr. Re is more

4 familiar with the mental state of the witness than the witness himself.

5 So I really think that is beyond the scope -- with all due respect in the

6 Anglo-Saxon system that allows for leading questions -- but I think this

7 is going a bit too far.

8 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. Re -- yes?

9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] But in any event, it is beyond

10 the scope of the examination-in-chief.

11 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: May I suggest that some attention be given

12 to the objection being made, which is if I may translate it this way,

13 that there is a distinction between a leading question in

14 cross-examination and counsel giving the evidence himself.

15 MR. RE:

16 Q. Mr. KV2, when you were at Keraterm and at Omarska, were names

17 called from a list of people, and were people taken away? Some came back

18 and were beaten, and others just disappeared. Did that happen?

19 A. Yes. This happened on a daily basis.

20 Q. And was that a terrifying thing for you and everyone else there?

21 A. Of course it was, because one never knew when your turn could

22 come.

23 Q. Was that the same when you were put on the bus to Omarska? Did

24 you think your turn could have come when you were put on the bus to

25 Omarska, and you could have been taken out and been killed?

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1 A. Yes, of course. That was the first thing that crossed my mind.

2 Q. When you were at Omarska, were the conditions of confinement

3 similar to those at Keraterm, that is the lack of food, sanitation, and

4 cramped conditions for sleeping?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did you see a person called Rizo Hadzalic die from a particularly

7 horrific beating while you were at Omarska?

8 A. Yes. I was at the pista at the time. And we heard him being

9 beaten just because of a word that he had used.

10 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. Re, I saw Mr. Fila on his legs. I don't

11 know whether you wanted to move a motion.

12 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Your Honour, during the

13 trial proceedings in this case, the Chamber introduced a rule that the

14 cross-examination may not go beyond the scope of the

15 examination-in-chief. That is how we have defended our clients over the

16 past three years. If you said that it is important in this case to

17 examine the witness to establish the role of Zoran Zigic in the killing

18 of Becir Medunjanin, in your ruling you have actually limited his

19 testimony to one particular event, and that is whether Zoran Zigic has

20 anything to do with the killing of Medunjanin. And the witness said he

21 didn't, and that was the examination-in-chief. And that is how we acted

22 throughout the defence of our clients. That was a rule introduced by

23 Judge Rodrigues. Now we're listening about the police station in

24 Prijedor, about Keraterm and Omarska. That is a renewed

25 examination-in-chief.

1 So that is my objection. The Prosecution can only focus on the

2 relationship between Zigic and Medunjanin and nothing beyond that. Thank

3 you.

4 MR. RE: Your Honour, this is --

5 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. Re.

6 MR. RE: This is directed to the witness's state of mind at the

7 time he witnessed it and when he made his statement. I'm not opening up

8 other areas. And I have finished with that, anyway.

9 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Oh, you have finished.

10 Mr. Re has finished up with that aspect, so perhaps we might

11 allow him to proceed to another branch of his inquiry.

12 MR. RE: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. Now, Mr. KV2, could I just summarise: When you left Omarska --

14 by the time you left Omarska, you had lost a considerable amount of

15 weight. Is that as a result of the basically starvation rations you were

16 fed there?

17 A. Yes, of course.

18 Q. Would it be fair -- I don't want to put words in your mouth,

19 would you would it be fair to say that you were psychologically

20 traumatised by your experiences at the Prijedor Police Station, Keraterm,

21 and Omarska?

22 A. Yes, of course.

23 Q. Did you witness a number of incidents of people being beaten and

24 killed at Keraterm and Omarska?

25 A. I can't say that I personally witnessed this, but I saw that

1 there were people who were lying on the ground who had been beaten,

2 who -- who were bleeding. I can't say that I was personally present when

3 they did these things.

4 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. Re, is it your position that this is

5 also directed to the state of mind of the witness?

6 MR. RE: And what he saw; yes, both.

7 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: I thought you had passed that.

8 MR. RE: I asked him whether he'd seen people being beaten and

9 killed.

10 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: No. I thought you had passed that part of

11 the inquiry directed to the state of mind of the witness.

12 MR. RE: Yes, I had. That's why I asked him whether he'd seen

13 people being killed. That's the subject, I understand, of the testimony.

14 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: But I thought you had passed that.

15 MR. RE: I'm moving to the specific incident for which we are

16 here. I'm sorry if there's any confusion. I'm directly on

17 Mr. Medunjanin.

18 Q. Mr. KV2, did you know Becir Medunjanin before you went to

19 Omarska?

20 A. No, I didn't.

21 Q. Did you know his son or his wife before you went to Omarska?

22 A. No, I didn't know them.

23 Q. Where were you confined when you were at Omarska? Where were you

24 kept or where did you sleep?

25 A. At the beginning, we were at the -- I was at the pista. That's

1 where we would spend the day, and in the evening we slept elsewhere.

2 Q. Did you ever speak to Becir Medunjanin? Were you ever introduced

3 to him?

4 A. No, I was never introduced to him. He'd been taken two days and

5 he wasn't there for long.

6 Q. And you only know his name because other people told you that a

7 person who had been killed there's name was Becir Medunjanin.

8 A. I heard his name when we were in the "white house." When

9 soldiers called his name out, we knew that it was his name, because he

10 responded to the soldiers.

11 Q. And to make this clear, did you actually see this person leaving

12 the "white house"? Or you assumed that he had left the "white house"

13 when the soldiers called out that name?

14 A. You're referring to Becir Medunjanin?

15 Q. That's correct.

16 A. Yes. They called his name out, he and went out with that group

17 of men.

18 Q. To make this perfectly clear, you remained inside the "white

19 house," and this person you say was Becir Medunjanin was taken outside,

20 that is outside the building; is that right?

21 A. No, not outside the room. He was called out. He responded, and

22 they started beating him immediately in the hall.

23 Q. And is it the situation that you could only hear but not see what

24 was happening outside the room you were in?

25 A. Yes. We heard him being beaten, and we heard him crying out when

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1 he was being beaten. They ordered us to face the wall, not to watch.

2 Q. When you said in response to His Honour Judge Shahabuddeen's

3 questions earlier that you saw the body outside, are we to take it to

4 mean that you were talking about outside the "white house," outside the

5 building?

6 A. No. I wanted to say that it was in the hall, because there was a

7 small hall, and there were three small rooms in that building, in the

8 "white house." Afterwards, they made us go out, after everything that

9 had happened, and we passed by the body.

10 Q. When you say you passed by the body, are you saying -- is this

11 what happened? You heard the sounds of beating outside. The soldiers

12 left, and then you went outside and there was a body in the hallway or

13 corridor.

14 A. First they called him out. This -- we didn't see what was

15 happening, but we saw the body and a puddle of blood.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter didn't catch the full answer.

17 There was some interference.

18 MR. RE:

19 Q. Mr. KV2, can you just please repeat what you said? We got up to

20 "We didn't see what was happening, but we saw the body and a puddle of

21 blood." Did you say something after that?

22 A. We heard them calling him out, and we heard them beating him.

23 And he started crying out. And afterwards, when they were driving us out

24 of the "white house," we saw the body lying in a puddle of blood.

25 Q. Are you saying --

1 A. In the corridor.

2 Q. -- to the Appeals Chamber that you did not see anyone do anything

3 to the body which was in the puddle of blood; that is, the soldiers or

4 guards had left by then and the body was just lying there by itself?

5 A. That's not way wanted to say, no.

6 Q. That's what I'm trying to clarify, Mr. KV2. When you saw the

7 body, was there anyone around the body or did you just walk past it?

8 A. There was a group of soldiers, the group that drove us out of the

9 "white house."

10 Q. Where were these soldiers and what were they doing?

11 A. We were at the entrance. They were in the hallway by the body.

12 They insulted us, and they drove us out of the "white house."

13 Q. Are you saying you then left the "white house," leaving the

14 soldiers behind with the body?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did you walk straight from the "white house" somewhere else?

17 A. We all went to the pista.

18 Q. When you were on the pista, did you look back into the "white

19 house" or were you concerned with other things?

20 A. No, we couldn't look at other things because they told us to turn

21 our faces towards the asphalt, and not to watch.

22 Q. When you say you saw the body lying in a pool of blood, were you

23 assuming that he had had some part of his body cut which had caused the

24 pool of blood to form?

25 A. Naturally. While I was going out, I saw that there was a wound

1 from which the person was bleeding.

2 Q. You saw the wound. Are you telling the Trial Chamber [sic] you

3 didn't actually see anyone inflict the wound upon the body? But assumed

4 because there had been people outside, sound of beatings, that the people

5 doing the beating must have wounded him?

6 A. Yes, naturally.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: The witness said

8 there was a wound in the neck.

9 MR. RE:

10 Q. And are you also telling the Appeals Chamber that you didn't see

11 the body after that? The last time you saw the body was when it was

12 lying in a pool of blood in the corridor in the "white house"?

13 A. Yes, you're right.

14 Q. Have you ever spoken to Becir Medunjanin's son? Do you know who

15 he is?

16 A. No. I haven't spoken to his son.

17 Q. About how many people were in the "white house" on that day when

18 you heard this beating, the sounds of beating in the corridor and you had

19 your back to the -- you had your face to the wall?

20 A. As it was raining, there were a lot of people. There were only

21 people who had been punished in that house, but as it was raining, they'd

22 all taken shelter in the room. There were about 60 people at the most.

23 Q. And were there people between you and the door when you were

24 standing there with your -- facing the wall?

25 A. There were a lot of people around me.

1 Q. Were there people between you and the door, the door leading to

2 the corridor?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And was the effect of the people being in the room to muffle the

5 sounds of whatever was happening in the corridor outside?

6 A. One could say so.

7 Q. Because you were standing with your face to the wall away from

8 the beating in the corridor outside, you aren't able to tell the Appeals

9 Chamber, are you, who was in the corridor doing the beating? The

10 situation is you just don't know, isn't it?

11 A. I can't say exactly who was there from that group of people.

12 Someone beat him from that group of people, but you can't say who

13 exactly.

14 Q. Because if you were standing in the room facing the wall and

15 there were other people between you and the door, other people could have

16 come into the corridor from the "white house" and beat the person without

17 you knowing, couldn't they?

18 A. Yes, you're right.

19 Q. Do you know a person called Dr. Sadikovic?

20 A. I knew him.

21 Q. Do you remember whether Dr. Sadikovic was in the "white house" on

22 that day or was with you on the pista on that day? If you don't

23 remember, please just say so.

24 A. I think he was in the "white house" on that day.

25 Q. When you say you think, is it based upon the fact that there were

1 a lot of people there and you had seen him around and he may or may not

2 have been there, but that he was just one of the people who was around?

3 A. Mr. Sadikovic, I saw him taken -- he was taken there about seven

4 days before the event happened, and he was placed in the house.

5 Afterwards, they didn't leave the "white house." They put us in the

6 "white house" afterwards.

7 Q. Are you able to say now, 12 years after the event, whether

8 Mr. Medunjanin's son was in the room with you when this happened? That

9 is, when you were facing the wall, there were all these people crowded in

10 the room, and someone was being beaten in the corridor outside.

11 A. I don't understand your question, when you ask me whether this is

12 something I could do.

13 Q. I'm sorry, it must have been some confusion here. I'm asking you

14 whether you remember now, 12 years after this terrible day, whether

15 Mr. Medunjanin's son was in that room with you.

16 A. I remember he and his mother were there.

17 Q. Do you remember whether they stayed in the room with you while

18 this beating was occurring outside?

19 A. I think they were in the first room, since people were kept

20 separately in the first room. We weren't kept in that room.

21 Q. Are you saying you think they were there and you think they were

22 in a different room?

23 A. They were in that room on the left in the "white house."

24 Q. Is that the same room you were in or a different room?

25 A. It was a different room, since we were in the two other small

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1 rooms.

2 Q. When you're saying this now, are you saying you think that they

3 were there in this different room when you were in the other room with

4 your face to the wall crowded in with a lot of people while the beating

5 was occurring?

6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think the witness

7 has already answered this question twice. It's not necessary to repeat

8 it, especially given the leading nature of the questions. And this is

9 the third time that this has happened. The questions put are excessively

10 leading. The witness has already answered the question.

11 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Yes, Mr. Re.

12 I don't think we have a picture, do we?

13 MR. RE: The question is directed to a different room, Your

14 Honour.

15 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: No. I'm saying I don't think we have a

16 picture on the screen.

17 You were explaining that the question is --

18 MR. RE: Oh. There's no transmission at the moment. Just to

19 respond to my learned friend's objection. I'm not leading. I'm saying

20 do you think they were in the different room, that is asking him, giving

21 him the chance to explain.

22 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: All right. Yes.

23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] It's necessary for me to say

24 that the two previous answers -- answers to the question, it's not just a

25 matter of leading questions, but a few lines before the witness already

1 answered the question.

2 [Appeals Chamber and registrar confer]

3 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Well, in the circumstances, we propose to

4 suspend for 15 minutes. Thank you.

5 --- Recess taken at 11.57 a.m.

6 --- On resuming at 12.22 p.m.

7 CHIEF MAGISTRATE CAHILL: Mr. President, we're going to bring the

8 witness back into the courtroom.

9 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Yes. Splendid, Mr. Magistrate.

10 CHIEF MAGISTRATE CAHILL: We're ready to proceed, Mr. President.

11 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Thank you. Thank you.

12 Mr. Re, I had -- I had computed that you had seven minutes more

13 to go. Would that be agreeable for you?

14 MR. RE: I thought it was ten, but --

15 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Ten minutes. So let it be.

16 MR. RE: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. Mr. KV2, you --

18 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.

19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that we

20 need to make an observation. Our examination of the witness -- and you

21 say that this is a Court witness, but it was our suggestion that he be

22 heard, and we requested a subpoena. The Chamber agreed with our

23 suggestion and agreed to organise this testimony, and we're not entitled

24 to re-examination. Our examination-in-chief is more limited because we

25 are not allowed to ask any leading questions, took ten minutes. On the

1 other hand, the Prosecution is allowed excessive cross-examination. He

2 is given much greater possibilities for their questions, and we feel that

3 this is quite in contrast with the policy of equal arms.

4 So could the Chamber please take note of the fact that the

5 Defence feels that they are being treated unfairly in this proceeding.

6 [Appeals Chamber confers]

7 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: All right. We'll see what we can do to

8 facilitate you, Mr. Stojanovic.

9 MR. RE: Your Honour, I just note that the Scheduling Order says

10 for all counsel examination for the same period, Mr. Stojanovic included.

11 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. Re, we are extending your time by three

12 minutes.

13 MR. RE: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. Mr. KV2, you made a statement to the -- to investigators and

15 lawyers from the Office of the Prosecutor on the 21st and 22nd of

16 September, 1998. Do you have a copy of at that statement there with you

17 at the moment?

18 CHIEF MAGISTRATE CAHILL: Mr. President, it may assist counsel

19 for the Prosecution, we have an English statement here only, but

20 certainly no translated statement.

21 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Would that be of any help to you, Mr. Re?

22 MR. RE: I understand it was taken in English, yes.

23 Q. Mr. KV2, you have your statement there in English. You read and

24 understand English; is that correct?

25 A. I have the statement, but I don't read English.

1 Q. Sir, I'll read you a passage from paragraph -- sorry, page 8 of

2 the statement. Do you remember making the statement in September 1998?

3 A. Yes, of course I remember.

4 Q. In the statement you said: "As soon as they stopped beating

5 him," that's meaning Becir, "I saw Duca who was facing my direction, pull

6 out his military knife from his right-hand sheath. I have served in the

7 military and know what military knife looks like. I noticed the blade

8 was 27 centimetres long. Becir's body was between me and Duca. As soon

9 as he took his knife out, Duca bent down and completely decapitated

10 Becir's head from the rest of the body."

11 That's what you told the OTP investigator and lawyer in September

12 1998, wasn't it?

13 A. I don't remember saying it to him like that.

14 Q. You then go on saying -- "He then took out his knife --" I'm

15 sorry. You then go on to say: "When the head was cut off --" I'm sorry.

16 I will withdraw that.

17 What I've just read to you from your statement is different from

18 the testimony you gave today to the Appeals Chamber, isn't it? Because

19 you told the Appeals Chamber earlier you didn't see how Mr. Medunjanin

20 was injured.

21 A. In my first statement I also said what I saw, and never did I

22 mention the name of the person who might have done it. I just said there

23 was a group of people and that I know that it was one of them.

24 Q. The statement then goes on: "When the head was cut off, I

25 remember the body was still shaking. After severing the head, Saponja

1 and the other guards started to kick the head. I believe they kicked the

2 head nine to ten times, and Saponja, then looking at us, said, 'Each one

3 of you who has participated in anything he did will end up like him.'

4 Duca did not kick the head. He was totally covered in blood."

5 That's what your statement to the OTP investigator and lawyer

6 taken in September 1998 says. That, sir, is of course very different to

7 the evidence you gave today, that you did not see what happened to the

8 body, isn't it?

9 A. I didn't say that I didn't see what happened to the body. We saw

10 the body lying in a pool of blood.

11 Q. Sir, you certainly didn't see anyone decapitate the head and then

12 the guards kick it around like a football, did you?

13 A. I saw a body lying and -- that had a cut on the throat.

14 Q. Sir, you have a copy of the statement there in English. I don't

15 want to see the front cover so that it identifies who you are.

16 MR. RE: Perhaps the Chief Magistrate might be able to assist us

17 here or the registry officer will help us in Australia with the document.

18 CHIEF MAGISTRATE CAHILL: The registrar will do it.

19 The witness now has before him a statement in English, I

20 understand.

21 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Thank you, Chief Magistrate.

22 CHIEF MAGISTRATE CAHILL: Now, what is it you wish us to do with

23 that statement, Mr. President?

24 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: I don't know. I'm in the hands of counsel.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.

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1 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Chief Magistrate, I'm in the hands of

2 counsel.

3 MR. RE: I wish the Chief Magistrate just to identify, looking at

4 the statement, that it does in fact bear the witness's name so that he

5 can identify that particular statement has the witness's name on the

6 front.

7 CHIEF MAGISTRATE CAHILL: I'll do that now, Mr. President.

8 MR. RE: And then I'll ask the witness to look at the signature.

9 CHIEF MAGISTRATE CAHILL: I confirm, Mr. President, that the

10 witness statement does have his name on the front.

11 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Thank you. Thank you, Chief Magistrate.

12 Yes, counsel.

13 MR. RE:

14 Q. Mr. KV2, can you just please look at the statement. It's a

15 seven-page statement -- or eight-page statement. I just want you to --

16 13-page statement. I apologise. It's a 13-page statement. I want you

17 just to identify that that is in fact a statement that you have signed,

18 that has been taken by the OTP -- sorry, Prosecution investigators, and

19 that you have signed the front page and initialed each of the bottom of

20 the pages and signed an acknowledgement at the end, on page 14.

21 A. Yes, I have this statement, and there is -- in the middle there

22 are two pages that are not signed at the bottom that seem to have been

23 added.

24 Q. What page numbers are those?

25 A. There's no number on those pages.

1 Q. Is this your statement dated the 21st and 22nd of September,

2 1998?

3 A. Yes.

4 CHIEF MAGISTRATE CAHILL: Perhaps, Mr. President, I could check

5 the statement and endeavour to just corroborate what the witness has said

6 about numbers on the pages.

7 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Thank you, Chief Magistrate. I'm looking at

8 my --

9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Thank you, Chief Magistrate. I'm looking at

11 my copy, and I don't see the deficiency averted to by the witness.

12 CHIEF MAGISTRATE CAHILL: I'll just examine the statement myself.

13 The registrar informed me that this is the copy she received from the

14 Office of the Prosecutor.

15 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Yes, counsel?

16 MR. RE:

17 Q. Mr. KV2, I'm just trying to find out if you have the same

18 document there. Are there 14 pages? It's a statement dated the 21st and

19 22nd of September, 1998. Thirteen pages with the one-page back sheet.

20 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: The trouble, Mr. Re, is that we -- the

21 trouble is that we're running out of time, are we not?

22 MR. RE: I just want the witness to identify it and then tender

23 it for the purposes of these proceedings.

24 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Okay. I won't take up any time.

25 CHIEF MAGISTRATE CAHILL: Mr. President, can I just confirm that

1 the pages bearing the serial numbers 00642184, 00642185 are two pages

2 that don't have enumerated numbers, and they don't have initials on them

3 either. All the other pages appear to be enumerated and initialed.

4 Those two pages do not.

5 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Thank you, Chief Magistrate. My copy is

6 different, then.

7 CHIEF MAGISTRATE CAHILL: I've referred to the typed numbers on

8 the top right-hand corner in identifying the pages.

9 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Yes.

10 CHIEF MAGISTRATE CAHILL: There are also numbers 1 to 13 on the

11 bottom, but --

12 MR. RE: It's possible by faxing or something or copying, because

13 it bears the same ERN number.

14 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Let me find out from Mr. Re what he is

15 interested in.

16 Are you interested in the signatures at the bottom of the page?

17 MR. RE: Could confirm that that is indeed -- the witness has

18 made the statement and signed it. It would appear explicable that some

19 pages may not bear the bottom part from maybe a copying process --

20 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: But your interest is in the signatures at

21 the bottom of the page? I gather that the witness is a saying that there

22 are two pages which do not have any signatures.

23 MR. RE: There are, but those two pages have the numbers at the

24 top. It would appear that when they have been copied or faxed, the

25 bottom two -- the bottom part which has got the number and initials

1 hasn't come through.

2 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Are those two pages relevant to what you're

3 asking the witness?

4 MR. RE: No.

5 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Well, then can we proceed?

6 MR. RE: We can.

7 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: -- on that basis? Yes.

8 MR. RE:

9 Q. Mr. KV2, that is the statement that you made, and apart from

10 those two pages - I think it was 4 and 5 - they all bear your initials on

11 the bottom, and it bears your signature at the end and at the front; is

12 that correct?

13 A. Yes, that's right.

14 Q. This is in fact the statement that you made to the investigators

15 or lawyers, and it was read back to you in Bosnian and you signed the

16 English, is that correct, on the 22nd of September, 1998?

17 A. Yes, that's right.

18 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Will that be all, Mr. Re?

19 MR. RE: That is all. And there is one question I wish to ask

20 him in closed session, and that is everything.

21 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Closed session ordered.

22 MR. RE: And while that's being done, may I tender this statement

23 on the appeal.

24 [Private session]

25 (Redacted)

1 (Redacted)

2 (Redacted)

3 (Redacted)

4 (Redacted)

5 (Redacted)

6 (Redacted)

7 (Redacted)

8 (Redacted)

9 (Redacted)

10 (Redacted)

11 (Redacted)

12 (Redacted)

13 (Redacted)

14 (Redacted)

15 (Redacted)

16 (Redacted)

17 (Redacted)

18 [Open session]

19 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

20 MR. RE: That concludes my cross-examination, and I move to

21 tender the witness's statement of 21st and 22nd of September, 1998.

22 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Those pages which bear his signature.

23 MR. RE: No, the entirety of the document.

24 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: With the exception of those two pages.

25 MR. RE: No, with the entirety of the document. They run

1 sequentially. It just appears the two that aren't particularly relevant

2 haven't come through.

3 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Well now, Mr. Re, we had taken account of

4 Mr. Stojanovic's representations, and we would now give him ten minutes.

5 Mr. Stojanovic.

6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, though

7 according to the Scheduling Order I had not expected to be given this

8 chance, but in any event, I'm very grateful for being given this

9 opportunity.

10 Further examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

11 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. KV2, did the Prosecution take any other

12 statements from you prior to 1998?

13 A. It did.

14 Q. Did the Prosecution first compile a statement including many

15 things that you never said?

16 A. I was given that statement because I was visited by a gentleman

17 without an interpreter when I arrived in the country, and he compiled a

18 statement that he took with him. And then when they came in 1998, I saw

19 that this was the statement which I hadn't really compiled or given.

20 Q. Is it also correct that in that first statement of 1995 the

21 investigators of the Prosecution mentioned many things that you hadn't

22 said and that were not correct?

23 A. They mentioned many things; that is, many things that I had

24 allegedly seen but which I hadn't seen.

25 Q. In that first statement, was it stated, for instance, that Zigic

1 had beaten you up, whereas you hadn't said that?

2 A. I really don't remember exactly what that statement of 1995

3 really looked like.

4 Q. Can you tell us how many times have you actually been in contact

5 with the OTP of the Tribunal, altogether.

6 A. I was visited twice, one in 1995 and one in 1998. They came to

7 my home.

8 Q. Didn't they come several times in 1995 to see you?

9 A. No. They came once. The first day they wrote the statement and

10 the second day they just came for me to sign it.

11 Q. And how many times has the Defence been in contact with you,

12 including myself and Zigic or anyone else?

13 A. I have not had contact with anyone.

14 Q. Have you ever seen or heard me in your life?

15 A. No, never.

16 Q. If I not mistaken, in this statement you also mention a certain

17 Hajra Hadzic in the "white house." What can you tell us about her?

18 A. At the beginning, she was detained in the "white house" too. And

19 she stayed there when a group of 174 men stayed behind. I was one of

20 them, and there were four women. That was the period when the camp was

21 being disbanded. We were left behind.

22 Q. Do you know what happened to Becir Medunjanin's wife in that

23 period of time?

24 A. Could you explain what period you're referring to.

25 Q. At the time of the incident in the "white house" when Becir was

1 killed, was she there?

2 A. When he was killed she was there, but later on she was taken

3 upstairs to the rooms where the other women were.

4 Q. Could you clearly hear the voices of the people who were beating

5 up and who killed Becir Medunjanin?

6 A. We could hear the voices of the soldiers who were insulting and

7 cursing, but most of all the moans of the person who was being beaten.

8 Q. Did you see the group of soldiers when they left the "white

9 house"?

10 A. The group of soldiers who did that stayed in the "white house."

11 We left the "white house," and we went off to the pista.

12 Q. Did you pass by them in the corridor in the "white house"?

13 A. Of course we passed by the soldiers as we were leaving the "white

14 house."

15 Q. Did you then see Zigic amongst them?

16 A. I can not say I saw him, because we had our heads about -- you

17 must understand that no one dared look or ask anything at all in that

18 situation.

19 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. Stojanovic, I take it that you are about

20 to wind up.

21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Certainly, Your Honour.

22 Q. But how far were you from those soldiers when you passed them?

23 A. The corridor is very narrow, and we were leaving in a line, one

24 by one, to go through the door.

25 Q. Could you have touched them with your hand?

1 A. Of course I could have.

2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Let me inquire from Mr. Fila, Mr. Simic. No

4 questions.

5 Let me turn to my colleagues on the Bench. One question from

6 Judge Guney. I shouldn't say one question. Judge Guney.

7 Questioned by the Court:

8 JUDGE GUNEY: Witness KV2, I want you to clarify one point. You

9 may recall the statement that you made on the 21st of August, 1995,

10 before the representative of the Prosecutor. In that statement, in

11 paragraph 5, you say, and I quote:

12 "I saw Becir Medunjanin being killed by Duca with an electric

13 cable and baton. Becir died in our room. Duca had slit his throat."

14 Is it correct? Is this statement correct?

15 A. The statement that I signed in 1995, naturally someone came from

16 The Hague. He didn't leave a visit card of any kind so that I could know

17 that he was the man in question.

18 JUDGE GUNEY: Because today -- or when I put to you the question

19 who was the killer of Becir Medunjanin, you said you didn't know that.

20 How do you consider this is true statement?

21 A. In 1995 when I gave that statement, my knowledge of English was

22 very poor. Naturally I tried to explain things to him, but I never

23 mentioned any names. I never said that such-and-such a person had done

24 something. I said that there was a group of people, but I never

25 mentioned the name of one individual.

1 JUDGE GUNEY: So you didn't -- you didn't mention the name of

2 Duca during your statement?

3 A. I did mention his name. I said that he was in the group of men

4 who went to the "white house."

5 JUDGE GUNEY: Thank you.

6 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Thank you. Thank you, Witness KV2. I don't

7 think there are any more questions. You may stand down.

8 [The witness's testimony via videolink concluded]

9 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: May I address the Chief Magistrate to say

10 that this Bench of the Appeals Chamber thanks the authorities in the

11 Commonwealth of Australia for their kind cooperation in helping to make

12 these arrangements. And we thank you, Chief Magistrate, very especially

13 for participating in our ongoing effort to administer international

14 criminal justice.

15 CHIEF MAGISTRATE CAHILL: Thank you, Mr. President. It has been

16 our pleasure to assist.

17 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Thank you. Thank you.

18 Well, on that note, we will adjourn the proceedings until

19 tomorrow for another videolink conference. Is that right? Yes. Thank

20 you very much.

21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.55 p.m.,

22 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 20th day of July,

23 2004, at 9.00 a.m.

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