1 Monday, 29 November 2004
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon.
6 If the usher would lower the shutters and the witness can be
7 brought in.
8 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, if I may while that's being done.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Whiting.
10 MR. WHITING: There is a -- there was one document that I showed
11 the witness on Friday which I neglected to move into evidence. And I
12 would ask -- I've spoken about this with the Defence and I'd ask if I
13 could do so before the cross-examination begins.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. And what is that document?
15 MR. WHITING: It's the diagram. It's ERN 01167660.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
17 MR. WHITING: There's an original in multiple colours and then
18 there is a translation attached to it, and I would ask that that be given
19 a number and that it be placed under seal.
20 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received under seal.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the number will be P74, under seal.
22 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
23 [The witness entered court]
24 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon. If I could remind you of the
25 affirmation you took at the beginning of your evidence, which still
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Can I start now?
3 JUDGE PARKER: We were just waiting for the shutters to go up.
4 What will happen now is that the Defence counsel will ask you some
6 Mr. Mansfield.
7 WITNESS: WITNESS L-06 [Resumed]
8 [Witness answered through interpreter]
9 Cross-examined by Mr. Mansfield:
10 Q. Good afternoon, sir, I'm over here, if you can see, and I
11 represent Fatmir Limaj and I would like your help about a few matters,
13 MR. MANSFIELD: I'm not getting any sound at all. Neither of
14 these two.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Perhaps if I spoke a moment, Mr. Mansfield, you
16 might detect whether I'm on air to you.
17 MR. MANSFIELD: You appear to be. I hope the witness is. Yes.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Well, if I am, he should be. So we can continue.
19 MR. MANSFIELD:
20 Q. I want to ask you about some dates concerning the end of the war.
21 Do you agree that the war ended in 1999 after the NATO bombing. Do you
22 remember that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You said on Friday that after one year you obtained a television.
25 Do you remember saying that?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. That being the case, you must have obtained a television in the
3 year 2000. Would that be right?
4 A. Yes, that's right. That's how it was.
5 Q. And therefore in that year, 2000, is it right to say that
6 sometime that year you saw Fatmir Limaj on your television set?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You saw him many times?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You realised he was a well-known politician then?
11 A. Yes, that's correct.
12 Q. And if you remember, he was saying and doing good things for
13 Kosovo at that time.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did you mention to your family anything about the man you were
16 looking at on television?
17 A. No. I only said that I think this one is Fatmir Limaj. I did
18 not know him before.
19 Q. But what did you tell your family about the man, Fatmir Limaj,
20 who you were seeing on television?
21 A. We watched him and I remembered that he was Fatmir Limaj.
22 Q. Well, I'll come to your memory in a moment, but what did you tell
23 your family about this man on television regularly called Fatmir Limaj?
24 What did you tell them about him?
25 A. I told them, This is the one that released me from the Lapusnik
2 Q. Right. Now, that's in the year 2000. In 2001, that's the next
3 year, this man, Fatmir Limaj, was still appearing regularly on
4 television, wasn't he?
5 A. Yes, he was.
6 Q. Now, I want to come to the year 2002. Do you remember in that
7 year you were seen twice,as you said on Friday, by investigators; once in
8 January and again in November of 2002. Do you remember those occasions?
9 A. Well, to speak the truth, I can't remember very well. I don't
11 Q. Well, you acknowledged to the Prosecutor on Friday the person you
12 have met before giving evidence a number of times, that you had made two
13 statements, one in January and one in November. Is it you just don't
14 remember doing it or what?
15 A. I have made statements, yes.
16 Q. By 2002, according to you, you had a clear recollection of the
17 man you say who had saved you and may be the reason you are here today,
18 didn't you, according to you. Is that fair?
19 A. Yes, that's what I said.
20 Q. And I want to suggest to you now so that it's clear that so far
21 as your recollection is concerned you have made a serious mistake about
22 Fatmir Limaj. Do you follow?
23 A. Yes, I'm following.
24 Q. All right. When you came to see the first investigator -- do you
25 remember him, the one that saw you in January of 2002?
1 A. I can't remember him, because there have been several people.
2 Once I met with one person and another time I met with somebody else. I
3 can't remember.
4 Q. This person, this investigator, spent far longer in your presence
5 than the man you say is Fatmir Limaj, didn't he? The investigator in
6 January, he spent -- sorry.
7 A. Yes, that's how it was.
8 Q. That's how it was. Do you remember anything about this first
9 investigator from the United Nations?
10 A. No, I can't.
11 Q. You can't? You can't even give a description of him; is that
13 A. No, it's been a long time, seven years.
14 Q. I appreciate that.
15 A. But I've said the truth.
16 Q. It was a long time between your release, you say, and the first
17 time in 2002. That was nearly four years, wasn't it, on this first
18 occasion when you were being seen in 2002?
19 A. Yes, that's correct.
20 Q. And you were talking about, or being asked to remember back four
21 years in 2002, weren't you?
22 A. That's correct, yes.
23 Q. It's not easy, is it?
24 A. No, it isn't.
25 Q. Did this first investigator tell you why he wanted to speak to
2 A. He wanted me to describe the truth. He wanted to know the truth.
3 Q. Did he mention any names to you? Don't say what the names are,
4 for the moment. Did he mention any names to you of people he was
5 interested in?
6 A. I can't remember.
7 Q. Did he mention any names of people who he described as suspects?
8 A. He mentioned some, but it's been a long time and we suffered
9 these traumas.
10 Q. Yes. May I say at once: I don't wish to take you back through
11 your traumas at all. That is understandable. I would like your help
12 about whether this investigator mentioned the names of suspects that he
13 was interested in to see if you could help him. Did he mention any names
14 of suspects?
15 A. I can't remember.
16 Q. The key question I want to ask you about is this: Did you tell
17 this first investigator about Fatmir Limaj?
18 A. No, nothing.
19 Q. Nothing?
20 A. Only that he released me from prison.
21 Q. Yes. What do you think you told the first investigator about
22 Fatmir Limaj besides he released you from prison?
23 A. Nothing else. There is -- there was nothing else to tell him.
24 He only released me and that's it.
25 Q. All right. Of course on your account, that's very -- that's a
1 very important memory, isn't it?
2 A. Important?
3 Q. Yes. It's a memorable event, something you would remember, you
4 say, because he released you.
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. Now, I'm going to go slowly over this part of it. The suggestion
7 I make to you is this: That you did not tell the first investigator
8 anything about Fatmir Limaj releasing you. Now --
9 A. Yes. I've told everybody who questioned me, I told them that
10 Fatmir Limaj released me. There was nothing else to tell them, but I
11 told them that he released me from prison.
12 Q. Yes. I want to suggest you did no such thing and that what you
13 have done is over time you have put the person you saw on television back
14 into the situation when he wasn't there to release you in the first
15 place. Now, is there any possibility you've done that?
16 A. No. I saw him on TV. And the person I saw on TV was the one
17 that released me from prison.
18 Q. Now, I want you to look at a document.
19 MR. MANSFIELD: Your Honours, I've had the document itself
20 circulated. And there are copies of it, but I can give a reference for
21 it if it's possible to put it on screen. It's 0323, the number, 1239.
22 I don't need it on the witness's screen for -- unless he wants to have it
23 there. It's just so Your Honours can follow the point I'm about to make.
24 For the benefit of the witness: This is a statement, copy of a
25 statement, the first statement you made in January 2002, to an
1 investigator whose name appears on it. And you have signed this
2 statement. This is in English. There is an Albanian version of this as
4 Q. Now, I'm going to put to you, sir, the one sentence in this
5 statement which relates to Fatmir Limaj. And I'm going to read it twice
6 so you may understand what you dictated to somebody and what that person
7 wrote down in Albanian. This is what you wrote.
8 MR. MANSFIELD: Your Honours, it's in the middle of the second
9 page, 1240, at the end of the main paragraph.
10 Q. "After this" -- that is, after Fehmi had died -- "After this I
11 remember one day that a UCK soldier opened the door and looked" --
12 MR. MANSFIELD: Your Honours, it should read "in."
13 Q. "He did not say anything. One of the prisoners said it was
14 Fatmir Limaj."
15 I'll read it once again so you have it clearly.
16 "After this" -- the death of Fehmi, namely -- "I remember one day
17 that a UCK soldier opened the door and looked in. He did not say
18 anything. One of the prisoners said it was Fatmir Limaj."
19 A. No, that's not true. Fatmir Limaj released me from there and
20 Shala opened the door. Shala knows that. I did not see Fatmir Limaj
21 anymore there.
22 Q. If your account to the Tribunal on Friday and today is correct,
23 this account in this statement is totally wrong, isn't it?
24 A. No, they are not wrong.
25 Q. Well, let's go through it. It's very short. First of all, you
1 do not suggest that the person who came to the door was a UCK commander
2 or that you understood that he was, do you?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You go on to say in the statement that this soldier "did not say
5 anything." On your account you saw him twice and he certainly spoke to
6 you on both occasions. So that's wrong, isn't it?
7 A. No, it's not wrong.
8 Q. Do you understand these questions?
9 A. Yes, I understand them well.
10 Q. Well, if you understand them well, you told the investigator that
11 the man you understood to be Fatmir Limaj did not say anything.
12 A. The investigator when I went -- when I was in Pristina, maybe
13 they had a Serb over there or maybe they wrote it wrongly. I don't know
14 what they've written there. Because Fatmir Limaj just released me from
15 there and I haven't seen him -- I did not see him anymore.
16 Q. Yes. Please understand. We know what you are claiming Fatmir
17 Limaj said in your case. The point is, you did not claim that to the
18 first investigator; did you?
19 A. I said them to him, but there was a Serbian interpreter and
20 translator, and I did not know him. And they have made mistakes.
21 Q. Did they read this statement over to you?
22 A. No, that day they didn't.
23 Q. That day they didn't. But there came -- sorry.
24 A. That day they didn't.
25 Q. But there certainly did come a time when you were asked to go
1 through this statement, weren't you?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Yes. That was before you made the statement in November later
4 that year, wasn't it?
5 A. Yes, that's correct.
6 Q. And you made a number of corrections to this first statement,
7 didn't you?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. But in relation to this, that's the section after this "I
10 remember one day a UCK soldier," you did not indicate to the second
11 investigator that you had made a mistake about Mr. Limaj and that in fact
12 he'd come twice to where you were and he had spoken and that therefore
13 the first statement was wrong. You never said that to the second
14 investigator, did you?
15 A. I didn't tell him that. I only told him that -- he asked me a
16 week before that and he said that, I will take your case into
17 consideration. And then he came back again and said, you may go.
18 Q. Why did you not tell the second investigator that you'd made a
19 mistake about Limaj, that in fact it was quite different? Why didn't you
20 say you'd made a mistake about this?
21 MR. WHITING: I'm going to object, Your Honour. If -- it's not
22 clear to me which second investigator we're talking about here. But if
23 it's the ICTY investigator, that misrepresents the evidence.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Mansfield.
25 MR. MANSFIELD: It's the ICTY investigator.
1 MR. WHITING: The ICTY statement clearly states that he said that
2 Fatmir Limaj came on two occasions, as he testified here.
3 MR. MANSFIELD: Yes. I'm afraid that's not quite the point. The
4 statement goes through indicating where he's made mistakes in the first
5 one and indicates in that second statement, I made a mistake about X, Y,
6 and Z. Those are corrected. The point is he never said to Mr. Tucker
7 that he made a mistake in his first statement about Fatmir Limaj.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Well, it became a little lost to the point, I'm
9 afraid, to me, Mr. Mansfield, because you went on to say about him coming
10 twice, et cetera.
11 MR. MANSFIELD: Yes.
12 JUDGE PARKER: So if you could --
13 MR. MANSFIELD: Well, I think the witness is --
14 JUDGE PARKER: -- make the point clearly.
15 MR. MANSFIELD: I think the witness has accepted that he didn't
16 tell the second investigator that he'd made a mistake.
17 Q. You see, you told the first investigator, the one you saw in
18 January, and I've read out the portion, that one of the prisoners said it
19 was Fatmir Limaj. By that time in January, you say you'd seen him on
20 television throughout 2000, or that part of it, and 2001, and that's how
21 you knew him.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Well, which is it? Was it a prisoner who told you or was it that
24 you'd seen him on television?
25 A. No. When I saw him myself on television. And it was learned
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 that he was Fatmir Limaj. And I recognised him a little.
2 Q. Well, then, how is it you were telling the first investigator
3 that you knew Fatmir Limaj's name because one of the prisoners had told
4 you? Why is that being written down by you, or at least written down at
5 your dictation?
6 A. None of the prisoners told me that because we did not dare to
7 speak to each other.
8 Q. Exactly.
9 A. After the war, I saw him on television, and I learned more or
10 less -- and I recognised that he was Fatmir Limaj.
11 Q. The question is: How did the first investigator learn from you
12 that you knew his name from one of the prisoners? How did that get
13 written down as your statement?
14 A. I did not know his name and nobody else knew his name there. We
15 did not dare to speak to each other as prisoners. But after the war, we
16 learned that his name was Fatmir Limaj. And it was him, when he appeared
17 on TV. Because there, we did not dare to speak.
18 Q. Yes, I understand. I will ask it one more time only. How is it
19 your statement to the first investigator suggests in your words in
20 Albanian that you'd learnt the name from another prisoner? How does that
21 statement come about?
22 A. Maybe there was somebody there, or maybe because of the war.
23 It's been seven years since the war -- since the war and we've suffered
24 traumas. But as I said, Fatmir Limaj just came there and released me.
25 And I had no other contact with him whatsoever.
1 Q. I want to ask you about another incident involving another
2 person. The incident concerns some UCK soldiers who made you walk to the
3 house of someone else, right at the beginning of the journey that you
4 say -- to Lapusnik. Now, do you remember that incident?
5 A. I don't understand.
6 Q. You were made to walk to a house before you ever reached, you
7 say, Lapusnik, you had to walk to a house and then you ended up in a car.
8 Do you remember the walk to the house?
9 A. Yes, I remember walking. That house was the house of Idriz
11 Q. Right.
12 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I'm sorry to rise, but if we're going
13 to get into these sorts of questions, I suggest we go into private
15 MR. MANSFIELD: Well, I've tried to avoid it, but it's the name
16 of a soldier if it's of any assistance. I don't need the name, I just
17 need the fact that he identified somebody.
18 MR. WHITING: I think with this witness it's difficult to dance
19 around these names and the risk of these names coming out is very high.
20 JUDGE PARKER: I understand your caution. I think Mr. Mansfield
21 has been quite careful to date. I will -- I think we can take the risk a
22 little longer. The Chamber is naturally reluctant to preclude the public
23 hearing unless it is necessary.
24 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
25 JUDGE PARKER: I am going to change that, I regret, because I
1 have just been informed of the technology that's failing. Today the
2 delay machine has failed, so it's impossible to redact anything that is
3 said. It's on air. For that reason, I regret for the members of the
4 public that it is necessary to go into private session.
5 [Private session]
13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
15 MR. MANSFIELD:
16 Q. I am asking you about the occasion when you had to wait for about
17 an hour before some UCK soldiers came and made you walk to the house that
18 you've already mentioned. So are you clear about the time I'm asking
20 A. Yes. Four soldiers came, not one, but four. And they took us.
21 We walked for 500 metres to the -- on the mountain to the house where --
22 that you mentioned. And we went there. I asked them -- I said, Can I
23 ask you something? They said, Yes. And I asked them, Are you Serbs or
24 Albanians? And they said, We are Albanians [as interpreted]. And they
25 said, Get into the car -- in the boot of the car -- into the boot of the
2 Q. Now, you say -- I want to ask you about those four soldiers.
3 Sorry, I'm pausing in case there is a problem. There's not a
5 I want to ask you about whether you ever have been in a position
6 to identify any of those four soldiers.
7 A. No, none of them. They did not have masks, but I did not know
9 Q. Did you ever tell anybody that you would be in a position to
10 recognise one of them again?
11 A. No, not those. No.
12 Q. Did you ever tell anybody that you thought you knew the name of
13 one of the four?
14 A. No, only what I heard, a little bit, Elise, Elise. But I can't
15 recognise their faces. But a name, Elez.
16 Q. Now, in the statement dated the 19th of January, there is a
17 passage about this. You indicated to the first investigator that you
18 "waited for about an hour and two" -- not four, two -- "other UCK
19 soldiers with uniforms came and made us walk 500 metres."
20 Now, on what you're saying today, that's wrong. There were four,
21 not two. Is that right?
22 A. I -- we've suffered traumas. I've said the truth, and there is
23 no need for these question because I have -- what -- I've said the truth
24 about what I've experienced. I did not say anything about what I have
25 not experienced. But we have suffered big traumas.
1 Q. You do appreciate that it is very important that you do not
2 misidentify people in relation to these difficult events. You do realise
3 that importance?
4 A. People that I don't know, I don't know. And the people I know, I
5 have described there.
6 Q. That is why I am asking you questions. May I just go on in this
7 statement about these two soldiers. You say to the first investigator:
8 "I did not know who these two UCK soldiers were, but I am sure I can
9 recognise one of them today."
10 That was in January 2002. Was that true, that you could
11 recognise one of them?
12 A. No.
13 Q. So why did you say it?
14 MR. WHITING: Excuse me, Your Honour, I would ask that if this is
15 going to be put to the witness, that the entire -- the following couple
16 of sentences be read and put entirely into context. While I'm on my
17 feet, if that's going to be done, I suggest that that be done in private
18 session, since it's identifies places and names.
19 JUDGE PARKER: I think we're driven to it, regrettably. Private
21 [Private session]
11 Page 1063 redacted. Private session.
15 [Open session]
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session.
17 MR. MANSFIELD:
18 Q. In September 1998 you were interviewed by Serbian police. Do you
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did they keep a record as far as you could see of the interview?
22 In other words, did they write it down as they were asking you questions?
23 A. No. They came for a fine regarding the vehicle registration
25 Q. Now, you may not have understood. Were you not interviewed,
1 according to you, by the Serbian police about what had happened to you?
2 A. I don't understand.
3 Q. Did you tell the Serbian police about Lapusnik?
4 A. After the war?
5 Q. After the war -- well, sorry, not after the war. During -- 1998,
6 I understand it was September 1998. After you had gone back to your
7 [inaudible] village?
8 A. That's correct.
9 Q. That's correct?
10 A. They took me from Breg i Zi and they took me to the Lipjan police
11 station and they started questioning me: Where are you from? I'm from
12 this village. Where have you been? And I said, I've been imprisoned. I
13 was exhausted. I could hardly speak. I have been in Lapusnik, I told
14 them. Where did you keep them? And that was it.
15 Q. Was that interview or those questions, were they written down and
16 your answers written down so far as you could see?
17 A. No, I did not see anyone writing down.
18 Q. Did you mention a UCK commander who had released you?
19 A. No, I didn't mention any name over there.
20 Q. When did you first reveal, in other words tell, anyone that you'd
21 spoken to the Serbian police about your experiences?
22 A. I have not revealed this to anyone, neither to my family, never.
23 Q. When did you first reveal it?
24 A. The first time it was over here, and also when I was examined in
25 Pristina, it was during a conversation with those people.
1 Q. Which people?
2 A. The ones from the Tribunal. It is them who I told.
3 Q. Was it Mr. Tucker or was it Mr. Whiting or was it someone else?
4 A. I do not remember, because it's a long time since that time.
5 Q. What you had been telling the investigators on more than one
6 occasion was that you had never reported this matter or spoken about it
7 to anyone outside your family. That's what you were saying.
8 A. This is what I have stated, and I have never discussed it,
9 neither with my family or with anyone else.
10 Q. I'm sorry. I'll make it clear. You have indicated that what had
11 happened to you in, you say, Lapusnik had not been discussed with anyone
12 other than your family. That is what you were saying.
13 A. Well, sorry, I don't understand.
14 Q. Up until very recently, we don't have a date, you had been saying
15 that no one other than your family knew about your experiences in
16 Lapusnik. You told the investigators, No one -- I've told no one else.
17 You had not reported it and you hadn't spoken to anyone.
18 A. I had not discussed it with anyone.
19 Q. But you had been asked to speak with the Serbian police about it.
20 Hadn't you?
21 A. Yes, that's correct.
22 Q. Why didn't you tell the investigators when they took the
23 statements from you that in fact you had spoken to the Serbian police
24 about these matters?
25 A. Well, I didn't think too much about it. And trust me, we were
1 quite exhausted.
2 Q. Do you remember the names of any of the three people who
3 interviewed you?
4 A. No. There was only one person over there. He was an Albanian
5 with them, and also Roma people and also a Serb. They questioned me over
6 there. They were in three [as interpreted].
7 Q. Did you think the Albanian was called Fatmir?
8 A. Fatmir, correct.
9 Q. Well, I'd like to see if we can take it a bit further. What
10 other names can you remember from the interview, the people who were with
12 A. I didn't give any interview over there.
13 Q. Had you seen them before or since?
14 A. No, I have not seen them anymore.
15 Q. On Friday you indicated that you had shown them -- that's the
16 word that's been translated, "shown them" -- Lapusnik. Did you take them
17 to Lapusnik?
18 A. Yes, I did. Otherwise, I could not lie.
19 MR. WHITING: I'm sorry. Could I have the page reference for
20 that, if I could?
21 MR. MANSFIELD: Yes, certainly. Yes, it's my page 69. I gather
22 the lines are slightly different. It's day 9, 11.26.2004, line 10.
23 Q. When did you take them to Lapusnik?
24 A. I did not take them to Lapusnik. When they questioned me and
25 asked me, Where have you been? I told them that I was in Lapusnik. I
1 was held there in prison. And full stop.
2 MR. MANSFIELD: Your Honours, there may be problems with
3 translation, I don't know, but I'm going on what has been translated and
4 the witness's answer was: "Did you take them to Lapusnik?
5 "A. Yes, I did."
6 So that it didn't -- I'm sorry to intervene.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not dare them to take them --
8 dare to take them to Lapusnik. Nobody dared.
9 MR. MANSFIELD:
10 Q. But I want to ask you a little more about Lapusnik. You say you
11 recognised Lapusnik because -- on Friday because you had friends there.
12 Is that right?
13 A. That's correct.
14 Q. Were the friends that you had - I don't want the names or
15 anything, certainly not in public - but were the friends you say you had
16 still there in 1998?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. No. Which one? I do not understand. Which investigator?
2 Q. It's the first one. Not Mr. Tucker, it's another one. I can
3 give his name if it matters, but you say you don't know his name or don't
4 remember it.
5 A. I do not know.
6 Q. You do not know. Did you do any drawing for the first
7 investigator of Lapusnik itself or the farm?
8 A. Yes, I have done one.
9 Q. Yes. Did you do it for the first investigator?
10 A. I do not remember whether it was the first or the second one. I
11 know that I'd drawn a sketch.
12 Q. Well, it could be translation, so I'm going to go slowly again.
13 On Friday - and it's been put into evidence so could we have it on
14 screen, please, P74, otherwise ERN 01167660.
15 JUDGE PARKER: It has names in it, Mr. Mansfield.
16 MR. MANSFIELD: Yes, it better -- yes, it better be in private
17 session then, under the circumstances.
18 MR. WHITING: And --
19 MR. MANSFIELD: I'd like the witness to see this one.
20 MR. WHITING: And in addition the monitors. If it goes up on the
21 monitors -- either the shades drawn or not, if the assistants could avoid
22 having them on the monitors.
23 [Private session]
11 Pages 1071-1102 redacted. Private session.
7 [Open session]
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session now.
9 MR. WHITING:
10 Q. Witness, we are in open session, so I'd just remind you to be
11 careful about mentioning names.
12 Let me repeat the question. When the man you have identified as
13 Fatmir Limaj told you at Lapusnik that you would be released, what was
14 your reaction?
15 A. What can I say? When he told me, You will go home, I was
17 Q. And are you certain, sir, as you sit here today that that man was
18 Fatmir Limaj?
19 A. Yes, I'm sure.
20 Q. And when you were interviewed by the ICTY in November of 2002,
21 did you tell the ICTY investigator about -- that Fatmir Limaj was the one
22 who released you or ordered you released from Lapusnik?
23 A. Yes. I wrote this, that he released me from prison. Fatmir
25 Q. You were asked quite a few questions about your interview with
1 CCIU/UNMIK in January 2002. Do you remember all those questions?
2 A. I don't remember the questions. A long time has passed.
3 Q. No, I mean you remember being asked about that today by the
4 Defence counsel, about your interview with CCIU/UNMIK.
5 A. Yes, they asked me, but I know that I have written the truth.
6 Q. The interview that you had with CCIU/UNMIK, do you remember about
7 how long that interview lasted?
8 A. One hour and a half, two.
9 Q. And where did the interview take place?
10 A. In Pristina.
11 Q. You said that before the interview, some people came to your
12 house to tell you to come to the interview.
13 A. Yes, that's correct.
14 Q. When those people came to the house, how long did you speak with
16 A. Not long; ten, 15 minutes maybe. That's it. They took notes,
17 and then they summoned me afterwards. And then I went to Pristina.
18 Q. When you had the interview in Pristina with CCIU/UNMIK, you spoke
19 several times about the interpreter. Do you know if the interpreter was
20 a Serb or an Albanian?
21 A. I don't remember, but they spoke a different language. We didn't
22 understand what they were talking about. So maybe they have made -- have
23 written differently what we have told them. They were Serbs. What do I
25 Q. You had difficulty understanding the interpreter?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. Yes, indeed.
2 Q. And did you have any difficulty trusting the interpreter?
3 A. She -- there was an American lady. She knew the language very
4 well. Because the others I didn't trust. But this lady, I did.
5 Q. When did you see the American lady? Was that when you were
6 interviewed by the CCIU/UNMIK or by the ICTY?
7 A. With the ICTY.
8 Q. I'm going to ask you about something else, sir. After you left
9 Lapusnik, left the prison in Lapusnik and were -- and marched with the
10 other prisoners to Berisa, after that, have you ever returned to that
11 place that was the prison? Lapusnik?
12 A. No, no. It was impossible to go there again.
13 Q. Sir, you described the room that you were in for nearly two
14 months in Lapusnik, and you described that there was a window in that
16 A. Yes, only one, a small one.
17 Q. Could light come into that window?
18 A. A little light, very little, because there was also a wooden
19 plank in front of the window, so it prevented the light from entering the
21 Q. You were asked some questions about your ability to see Shala.
22 Can you tell the Court again, how often did you see Shala? Was it every
24 A. Every day, every morning in the -- in midday and sometimes he
25 opened the door and asked us, How do you feel? And he let us go out.
1 For as long as I was there, he was there too. He became like a family
2 member to me.
3 Q. And when he brought food, would he come into the room you were in
4 to bring you the food?
5 A. Yes, yes.
6 Q. And when you marched with the other prisoners to Berisa on that
7 last day, was that during the day or was that at nighttime?
8 A. During the day, the daytime.
9 Q. During the nearly two months that you were in Lapusnik and during
10 that final day when you marched to Berisa, did you have a clear view of
11 Shala's face?
12 A. Yes, I saw him very well. When we were climbing this mountain,
13 Shala told us to get ourselves by the hand. And he said, if one of you
14 lets go of the hand, I will kill him. I was the last in the line. Shala
15 was behind me. Murrizi was in front. And this is how we marched up the
16 mountains of Berisa. There is a meadow there, surrounded by two
17 mountains, and this is where we stopped for some two hours.
18 MR. WHITING: If I could just have one moment.
19 [Prosecution counsel confer]
20 MR. WHITING: I have no further questions. Thank you.
21 JUDGE PARKER: Sir, I am able to tell you that that is the end of
22 the questions you will be asked. You will now be able to go back to your
23 home. The Chamber wishes to thank you for coming to The Hague and for
24 the assistance you have given us. After we adjourn now, you will be free
25 to go and you will be given advice about how you will go home.
1 Mr. Whiting, we will take the break now and resume at 25 minutes
2 to. Is that convenient with the next witness? Am I looking at the right
4 MR. WHITING: I can answer the person. Mr. Cayley will have the
5 next witness, and that is convenient, yes, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE PARKER: We will resume at 25 minutes to 6.00.
7 --- Recess taken at 5.16 p.m.
8 [The witness withdrew]
9 [The witness entered court]
10 --- On resuming at 5.42 p.m.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon, sir. I am now going to ask you to
12 make an affirmation. Would you please repeat after me. I
13 solemnly declare.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare.
15 JUDGE PARKER: That I will speak the truth.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That I will speak the truth.
17 JUDGE PARKER: The whole truth.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The whole truth.
19 JUDGE PARKER: And nothing but the truth.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And nothing but the truth.
21 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much. Please sit down. Mr. Cayley
22 will now ask you some questions.
23 Yes, Mr. Cayley.
24 MR. CAYLEY: First of all, Your Honour, if I may identify the
25 witness. And if the usher could -- could you just whisper his name in
1 his ear and ask if that's him.
2 WITNESS: WITNESS L-04
3 [Witness answered through interpreter]
4 Examined by Mr. Cayley:
5 Q. Witness, you need to speak up a little bit. Is that your name
6 that's just been read to you?
7 A. Yes.
8 MR. CAYLEY: If you could show it to the Defence, please, and
9 also to the Judges.
10 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the Exhibit Number will be P75,
12 under seal, for this pseudonym sheet.
13 MR. CAYLEY: And my understanding is, Your Honour, this witness
14 will be L-04. I'll proceed, Your Honour.
15 Q. Witness, I realise that giving evidence is something you've never
16 done before, and I can understand you're feeling a little nervous. Relax
17 as best you can. Speak slowly. Listen very carefully to the questions
18 that I ask you, and only address matters that I raise in my question. Do
19 you understand that?
20 A. Yes.
21 MR. CAYLEY: Now, Your Honour, if we could go into private
22 session, please.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Private session.
24 [Private session]
11 Pages 1110-1122 redacted. Private session.
11 [Open session]
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in public session.
13 MR. CAYLEY:
14 Q. Witness, after this beating, can you tell the Judges what
15 happened to you next.
16 A. Yes, after they beat us they took us by our arms, Alush Gashi,
17 and he put us in a combi van.
24 A. (redacted) There were only
25 seats in the front. We were lying in the boot. There was nothing there,
1 no seats. I was behind the driver while my cousin was on the other side,
2 next to me. And we went along the road. I was trying to figure out
3 which way we were going. I knew the road very well. I had been there
4 before the war. I had gone along that road before the war. The car was
5 driving on the left. The car kept left. And I found myself in Lapusnik.
6 Q. If you can recall, how long did the journey take from receiving
7 your beating to finding yourself in Lapusnik?
8 A. I don't know what to say. It was -- the car followed various
10 Q. You can't recall how long the journey took?
11 A. An hour maybe.
12 Q. Now, you say that you found yourself in Lapusnik.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now, on the journey from your beating to arriving in Lapusnik,
15 you had a sack on your head. Is that right?
16 A. Yes. Both of us had sacks on our heads. But I was trying to
17 figure out which way we were going. I couldn't see, but I knew the road.
18 There is an asphalted road where a village called Sedlare is. There is a
19 little bit of asphalted road there. Well, the road goes to the right,
20 but our car went, turned left. And that's how I knew that I was in
22 Q. Now, when you got to Lapusnik, can you tell the Judges what
24 A. Yes. When we got to Lapusnik, they got us out of the car and
25 they put us in. Shala took the sacks off our heads, both of us.
1 Q. Did you know that the individual that took the sacks off your
2 heads at that time was called Shala?
3 A. Yes. I had heard. I heard from a soldier. A soldier said,
4 Shala, please, open the door. Get these. And he was a guard, sort of a
5 guard there.
6 Q. So when you arrived you heard a soldier address an individual as
7 Shala. Is that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now, when you arrived at Lapusnik, was it dark or light? Can you
11 A. It was morning, around 10.00, probably half past 10.00 at most.
12 Q. And it was summertime?
13 A. Yes. It was June.
14 Q. What did Shala tell you and your relative to do, if you can
16 A. When we got in there Shala searched everything we had in our
17 pockets and also on [Realtime transcript read in error: "in"] our wrists.
18 He wanted us to hand them over to him.
19 MR. CAYLEY: Your Honour, if we can go into private session now
20 because I think there's a risk of ...
21 [Private session]
11 Pages 1126-1141 redacted. Private session.
1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m.,
2 to be reconvened on the 30th day of November,
3 2004, at 2.15 p.m.