1 Friday, 3 December 2004
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning. Two people on their feet. I'll
6 start with my left.
7 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honours. I have a preliminary
8 matter to raise and it ought to be in private session, please.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Private session.
10 [Private session]
10 [Open session]
11 MR. KHAN: Good morning, Your Honours. Your Honours, it's a brief
12 matter. As you know, the Prosecution engage in proofing witnesses and
13 they are, of course, today going to submit a reply to the motion or the
14 draft motion of my learned friend Mr. Topolski. This witness was
15 interviewed by the Prosecution in 2003. At that time, he was shown a
16 photo line-up which included the picture of my client, Mr. Limaj. At that
17 time, being shown those photographs by Mr. Lehtinen, the witness stated
18 that he could not identify Mr. Limaj as having anything to do with the
19 camp at all. And that was right after, of course, he had relived his
20 experience at the camp.
21 MR. NICHOLLS: I don't mean -- I'm sorry to interrupt. My view is
22 that is not exactly -- that is not an accurate reflection of what the
23 witness said when he looked at the line-up, but I don't think we need to
24 go into that now.
25 MR. KHAN: Well, Your Honour, it will all come out in the wash, of
1 course. The witness in fact said that the person looks familiar, in 2003,
2 but I don't recognise him from the camp at all. That was the thrust of
3 it, but that will come out. My point is somewhat different.
4 The Prosecution have very courteously informed me, upon my
5 request, that the witness arrived in The Hague on Saturday, the 27th of
6 November. And he has spoken to the Prosecution a number of times on
7 Saturday, Sunday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. On the Sunday, so the
8 second time he met the Prosecution, not at the first meeting, the witness
9 says that in 1999 he happened to be surfing on the Internet and he came
10 across a small -- well, he came across a picture which he identifies as
11 being the man who released him at the camp. Your Honour, that picture
12 will be shown to you no doubt in the Prosecution's examination-in-chief.
13 In fact, it's part of the video. It's a captured still from part of the
14 video that was shown in open session. Perhaps Your Honours will remember
15 the portion. It's when my learned friend Mr. Topolski turned to and said
16 the person sitting next to Mr. Limaj, standing next to Mr. Limaj at the
17 head of this parade was Mr. Musliu. So it was broadcast in open session.
18 The difficulty I've got because of the late disclosure on the 1st
19 of December, just a couple of days ago, is that I have not been able and
20 we have not been able to make the necessary investigations as to the
21 provenance of both the still captured on the Internet that the witness
22 says he saw. And in particular we have not been able to investigate the
23 basic issues; firstly, whether this Internet site, which is a Serb
24 Internet site, www.Kosovo.com, whether or not that existed in 1999,
25 because as Your Honours know, of course, Internet sites come and go. And
1 secondly, if it did exist, we want to investigate what stills were on that
2 site at that time, and that is possible.
3 Now, Your Honours, the Prosecution, of course, have far more
4 resources than us. I know my friend Mr. Nicholls is not aware of anybody
5 in the office having that speciality, but I'm very happy for the
6 Prosecution to make those inquiries and let me know if that web site
7 existed in 1999, and if so, what was on it. But if I can't find that
8 information, it's going to be extremely difficult to pitch the
9 cross-examination at this particular witness.
10 So, Your Honour, the purpose of my rising is simply to give you
11 and Your Honours notice or heads-up that it may be the case at a later
12 stage, depending on how events pan out today, that I will not be a
13 position to cross-examine, because the only cross-examination for this
14 witness was focused on the new disclosure, which is identification. I
15 didn't have any questions for the previous witness and I didn't intend to
16 ask this witness any questions either. It's accepted, of course, that
17 these witnesses have been through a lot and one does not want to drag them
18 over the coals, as it were, so I want to know exactly what the state of
19 play is in advance of asking particular questions. So it may be a case,
20 Your Honours, that unless the Prosecution can provide me those two primary
21 facts, as it were, I may at a later stage be asking for the matter -- or
22 for the witness to stay over until at least Monday to give me a further
23 opportunity, to give us a further opportunity of making what I submit are
24 these very necessary and very fundamental investigations.
25 Your Honour, that's the observation I make at this point.
1 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Khan.
2 Mr. Nicholls, this seems to be a late disclosure issue. Are the
3 Prosecution in a position to facilitate Mr. Khan's need for further
5 MR. NICHOLLS: I don't know that we are, Your Honour, and I oppose
6 the motion to keep the witness longer for several reasons. First of all,
7 whenever the witness may have first seen this photo, what happened is he
8 didn't tell us about it until he arrived. He found it on the Internet
9 here --
10 JUDGE PARKER: It's not a matter of blame, it's a matter of the
11 fairness of the trial.
12 MR. NICHOLLS: I understand. What I'm trying to get to, Your
13 Honour, is the piece of information he seeks I think is a bit peripheral,
14 because whether the witness is correct that he saw it in 1999 or not,
15 whether the web site was up in 1999 or not, he told us he saw a photo on
16 the Internet, we asked him if he could find it, he found it, he showed it
17 to us. That photo is on the Internet now. So at some point he saw that
18 photo which he believes depicts what he said it does.
19 JUDGE PARKER: When you say he found the photo, do you mean that
20 he had a print of it?
21 MR. NICHOLLS: No. He searched on a terminal and said, That's the
22 one I'm talking about, and then it was printed off of the screen. I --
23 this issue was raised this morning. I don't know what -- I'm not a person
24 who's got any expertise in web sites or when this is -- when these -- how
25 these things can be tracked. My friend Colin Black has looked at the web
1 site now and it says that on the cover it says copyright 1997, Kosovo.com,
2 if that helps. However, all of the questions are entirely speculative,
3 this need for recalling the witness. He can do his cross-examination as
4 he would. The only issue he's not able to tell for certain is whether he,
5 my friend, knows the date that the web site was up. But every other
6 question he can ask. In the future he may discover that in fact it was up
7 in 1999 and then that question is gone, there's no reason to ask it. And
8 if it was not, if it was later, it's a fairly peripheral issue, I think --
9 JUDGE PARKER: It may appear peripheral from some viewpoints, but
10 if, for example, it is true that that picture is now on a web site but
11 that it has only very recently occurred, the effect upon credit could be
12 significant, could it not? And we -- I put that as a hypothetical
13 possibility because there's no way at the moment of knowing the
14 fundamental facts.
15 MR. NICHOLLS: Well, exactly -- that's exactly right, Your Honour.
16 It is hypothetical, which is why I think at the moment that there isn't a
17 problem. If there is a need to recall --
18 JUDGE PARKER: I think our minds are not meeting, Mr. Nicholls.
19 Whether there is a problem or not will not be known until it is discovered
20 when this web site existed and whether this photo was on it at that time.
21 MR. NICHOLLS: The witness can answer that to the best of his
22 recollection. We -- I will do what I can to find out the questions of
23 when the web site existed and when the photo was up. I just have to say
24 this morning I don't know how that is done and how soon it can be done. I
25 will check with travel plans and see whether Monday is a problem. I don't
1 think it will be, but I can check.
2 JUDGE PARKER: At the moment, unless you can assist Mr. Khan
3 before then, I think you must anticipate the witness will need to be here
4 on Monday.
5 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Any further matters?
7 MR. KHAN: No, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE PARKER: We'll have the witness in.
9 [The witness entered court]
10 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning, sir.
11 THE WITNESS: Good morning.
12 JUDGE PARKER: If I could remind you of the affirmation you took
13 when you commenced your evidence, it still applies.
14 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
15 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Nicholls will continue to ask you questions.
16 WITNESS: IVAN BAKRAC [Resumed]
17 [Witness answered through interpreter]
18 Examined by Mr. Nicholls: [Continued]
19 Q. Good morning, sir.
20 A. Good morning.
21 Q. Again, please take your time to listen carefully and understand
22 the question. Take your time, as much time as you need, to answer. Now,
23 when we left off last night we had just finished speaking about how you
24 entered this camp compound through the gates and you indicated to the
25 Trial Chamber that you were then led with the other people who had been in
1 the van with you into a room in the main house.
2 MR. NICHOLLS: Is there a problem?
3 MR. TOPOLSKI: No, I'm sorry. We have guests with us this morning
4 and the microphones aren't working. I'm sorry to interrupt. We'll get it
5 fixed. There's no reason why Mr. Black [sic] can't proceed.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Nicholls, carry on.
7 MR. TOPOLSKI: Mr. Nicholls, I'm sorry.
8 JUDGE PARKER: You're catching my disease, Mr. Topolski.
9 MR. TOPOLSKI: Does Your Honour get better?
10 JUDGE PARKER: On odd days. I have good days, yes.
11 MR. TOPOLSKI: We've noticed that.
12 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.
13 Q. Sir, do you remember we were talking about that stage of your
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Now, can you please describe as best you can from your memory the
17 room which you were taken into in the house.
18 A. Before the main room there was a smallish corridor, with the
19 toilet to the left. Inside, in the main room there were mattresses on the
20 floor and there was some kind of a stove next to the radiators -- I'm
21 sorry, next to the door.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 MR. NICHOLLS: I'd like to now show the witness from P5. It will
24 take one moment to come up. That's our visual presentation, an image.
25 Q. Sir, do you recognise the -- what is in the photo in front of you,
1 which, for the record, is building A1 in our locations booklet.
2 A. Yes, I do recognise it.
3 Q. What is it?
4 A. This is where we were kept at the beginning, on the ground floor.
5 That's where the main centre was.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 MR. NICHOLLS: And for the record, this is from P6, it's A1.
9 I would ask Mr. Younis if he can please show the interior of the
10 ground floor. And if we could look around that room, please.
11 Q. Now, sir, do you recognise what's being shown in front of you?
12 A. Yes, I do recognise the room, but everything that's in it wasn't
13 there at the time.
14 Q. And just for the record, that's a room which you were initially
15 brought into?
16 A. That's correct.
17 Q. And I'll also say just for the record that I started showing you
18 that room earlier when you were here but we stopped before we looked at
19 it. Isn't that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Who was in the room when you were brought into there?
22 A. There were soldiers. I'm not sure how many of them, but several.
23 Q. And what happened to you and your father? What happened after you
24 were brought into the room? What is the first thing that you remember
1 A. They made us sit on some mattresses and started to interrogate us;
2 where we were from, what we were doing in Kosovo. And on the other side,
3 they were beating Genov.
4 Q. And who was asking you these questions, if you remember anything
5 in particular about the person who was asking you these questions?
6 A. I'm not sure that there was any specific feature about this man,
7 but I assume that he was one of the people in charge there.
8 Q. We'll talk about that in a moment. How long were you kept in this
9 room with your father?
10 A. For about an hour, an hour and a half.
11 Q. And what happened to Genov during that whole time? You started
12 saying that he was beaten.
13 A. Yes. They beat him with rifle butts, they kicked him; anything
14 they could lay their hands on.
15 Q. What about Cuk, Mr. Cuk?
16 A. I don't remember.
17 Q. If you remember, did they, the soldiers who were beating Genov,
18 give any reason of why they were doing that or did they ask him any
19 questions while they were beating him?
20 A. No. They just referred to him as the Serbian police. As they
21 were beating him, they were calling him the police and saying this is what
22 the Serbian police is doing to the Albanians.
23 Q. Now, you started saying that the person who was asking you
24 questions seemed to be somebody in charge. Tell me why you thought this
25 person was the person who was in charge.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. When he entered the room, everybody saluted him and stood at
2 attention when he approached us.
3 Q. Could you please describe that man who everybody saluted as well
4 as you can from your memory. And I'll give you some cues: How old did he
5 appear to be?
6 A. In his mid-30s, perhaps 35, 36.
7 Q. How tall was he?
8 A. About 180 to 185 centimetres.
9 Q. What was his build? And by that I mean what was he like
10 physically? Was he big? Thin? Just if you could describe his build.
11 A. Well, he was of medium build. He was not thin, he was not fat, he
12 was medium build.
13 Q. Can you describe his hair for us.
14 A. Yes. He had longer -- slightly longer hair, combed back, with
15 some gray in it.
16 Q. And did he have any facial hair?
17 A. No. He was clean-shaven, not freshly shaven, but he didn't have
18 any facial hair.
19 Q. And could you describe his uniform for us, please.
20 A. It was a camouflage uniform, just as everybody else had, but it
21 was much neater and cleaner than the uniforms of the others.
22 Q. And did he directly ask you questions or were those questions
23 directed to your father or to both of you? If you can describe the
24 questioning a little bit from this man.
25 A. I think it was directed to both of us because they knew that we
1 were father and son, so the questions were directed to the two of us, not
2 separately each one of us. The interrogation went along the lines of what
3 we were doing at Kosovo, where we were going by bus.
4 Q. And how long did this questioning last?
5 A. 10, 15 minutes, not more than that.
6 Q. And how did this person you've described as the person in charge
7 of the soldiers, when he was asking you and your father these questions,
8 what was his demeanour like? How was he behaving towards you?
9 A. Well, he was a very pleasant person. He never indicated that he
10 wanted to hurt us in any way. He behaved in a very soldier-like fashion.
11 Q. Was this person, this person in charge, present at the same time
12 that Genov was being beaten in this room?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. As far as you could tell, what was his reaction to that beating,
15 if any?
16 A. Well, his reaction was along the lines that he was happy that they
17 had caught him and happy that they were beating him. But he himself did
18 not do anything. He stood back.
19 Q. And during this conversation you had with this man who was in
20 charge, how far away from him were you? Were you both sitting or
21 standing? If you can describe how you, your father, and this person were
22 situated in the room.
23 A. He sat maybe about half a metre away from us. We were sitting on
24 the floor, he sat across from us. The distance was perhaps half a metre.
25 Q. Was he writing or taking any notes during this conversation or
1 recording it in any way?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Did you see this man, this person who was in charge of the
4 soldiers, again before you ultimately left the camp?
5 A. Yes. He was the first person to tell us that we would be
7 Q. And we'll talk about that again later on in a little more detail,
8 but can you just tell us when that was and where that conversation took
10 A. I didn't understand your question. What do you mean by
11 "conversation"? The first conversation or the second conversation?
12 Q. My fault, I'm sorry. The second conversation, or the subsequent
13 conversation when he said -- told you that you were going to be released,
14 when did that take place?
15 A. That was in the room upstairs of the same house.
16 Q. And were there any other times besides these two occasions that
17 you spoke to this man in charge?
18 A. No.
19 Q. How long did that second conversation or when he spoke to you and
20 told you and your father you were going to be released, how long did that
22 A. Not longer than 15 to 20 minutes. It was just -- the question was
23 how we felt, whether everything was okay with us, and then he announced
24 that we would be released.
25 Q. And was his behaviour towards you the same as on the first
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now, after your release from this camp, did you ever see a picture
4 of this man again?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Where did you see the picture?
7 A. Over the Internet.
8 Q. When was that that you saw the picture on the Internet, as well as
9 you can remember?
10 A. It may have been about a year after the events. When my family
11 bought a computer, we were interested to see what was going on in Kosovo,
12 and at a web site, we found their pictures.
13 Q. And what was the address of the web site?
14 A. It was Kosovo.com.
15 Q. Do you recall when you first told people from my office about
16 seeing that photo and recognising the person who was in charge?
17 A. It was a few days ago. I think that you were the first person to
18 whom I actually showed that.
19 Q. And were you able to go on an Internet terminal here and find the
20 photo you were referring to?
21 A. Yes, I was.
22 MR. NICHOLLS: I would now like to show the witness a photograph.
23 It will be on Sanction; however, I've given the witness a hard copy.
24 Unfortunately, Your Honour, this does not have an ERN number. I
25 was unable to get it an ERN reference number before this session.
1 Q. Sir, could you look at the photo in front of you.
2 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, I think it may be more appropriate, in
3 fact, rather than show a blow-up, to show the actual web page itself.
4 That's what the witness identified.
5 MR. NICHOLLS: That's what he has in front of him, Mr. Khan. It
6 may be blown-up on the --
7 MR. KHAN: I don't know, Your Honours, if you've got the actual
8 web page. It's considerably smaller.
9 MR. NICHOLLS: I can show the actual -- Your Honours have the
10 photo which I'm showing to the witness. It is not the actual web page, I
11 have the actual web page, but the only relevant portion is the photograph.
12 MR. KHAN: Well, Your Honour, it may assist. I can hand mine up
13 if it's --
14 JUDGE PARKER: We have a page, I find --
15 MR. KHAN: Yes.
16 JUDGE PARKER: -- with a smaller version --
17 MR. KHAN: Yes, I'm grateful.
18 JUDGE PARKER: We will -- perhaps you could clarify what size it
19 was from the witness, as he recalls it, Mr. Nicholls.
20 MR. NICHOLLS: I will, Your Honour.
21 Q. First of all, sir, you see the size of the photo in front of you?
22 A. Yes, I do.
23 Q. Is that the size of the photograph that you found on the Internet
24 here in The Hague?
25 A. Yes, it is.
1 Q. Is that the same photograph which you found here in The Hague that
2 you were looking at in 1999 when you recognised the person in charge at
3 the camp?
4 A. That is the same picture that I saw here in The Hague, but in 1999
5 it was -- the picture was much larger and that was not the only picture
7 Q. Other than the difference in size of the picture, is there any
8 other difference between the picture you saw in 1999 and the picture which
9 you found here and which is before you?
10 A. No difference, except that it is much more difficult to see it, to
11 discern the faces here in this photograph. Other than that, it's the
13 Q. Why is it more difficult here? Is that because of the size or any
14 other reason?
15 MR. KHAN: I would ask my friend be careful.
16 MR. NICHOLLS: I'm just trying to be clear, Your Honour.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is because of the size of
18 the picture.
19 MR. NICHOLLS: If the witness could be given a pen.
20 Q. And I'd ask you to just, perhaps from the bottom of the photo,
21 draw an arrow pointing, if you can, exactly to the person in the photo
22 which you've been referring to as the one you recognised on the web site
23 in 1999.
24 A. [Witness complies].
25 Q. And you can do that on the photo which is to your left on that
1 machine -- oh, I'm sorry. I didn't see. Thank you.
2 MR. NICHOLLS: I'd ask that that be admitted, Your Honour. I
3 think it's P80.
4 THE REGISTRAR: That's correct, Mr. Nicholls.
5 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P80.
7 MR. KHAN: Well, Your Honour, it may seem like a small point, I
8 don't know at the moment, but I would ask that perhaps once again - it's a
9 very simple exercise - but the actual page from the Internet that the
10 witness saw, the whole page be put before him and he can just do the arrow
11 on that page.
12 JUDGE PARKER: If you want that in as well, Mr. Khan, you may do
14 MR. KHAN: I'm grateful, Your Honour. I don't know at the moment
15 where it's going, you see.
16 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE PARKER: No, in cross-examination, not now.
18 MR. NICHOLLS:
19 Q. Now, sir, you gave a statement to an ICTY investigator in January
20 2003. Do you remember that?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And over time you've had several contacts with an investigator
23 from this office about logistical matters, including the time of your
25 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, I'm going to request that you be careful,
2 MR. NICHOLLS: Well, I -- I --
3 JUDGE PARKER: Just be careful, Mr. Nicholls. I know you are.
4 MR. NICHOLLS:
5 Q. Have you had contact with investigators from the ICTY subsequent
6 to your statement in 2003?
7 A. Just regarding our arrival here. That was over the past few
9 Q. Now, I just want to ask you, if you can, tell the Court why you
10 didn't tell the investigator in 2003 about having seen the photograph
11 which has just been marked an exhibit and did not let us know until you
12 arrived here recently.
13 A. Well, I don't know, really. I thought that it was not that
14 important. Since it was on the Internet, it was in public access. I
15 thought you knew about it.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 MR. NICHOLLS: I'd now like to show the witness a short video
18 clip. It's P35, I think.
19 [Videotape played]
20 MR. NICHOLLS: If we can back up just a tiny bit.
21 [Videotape played]
22 MR. NICHOLLS: And -- sorry -- okay. That's enough. We can
23 remove that from the screen. I have a still from that video clip.
24 Q. Now, sir, do you recognise anything from that video clip? And I
25 should say that you were shown that video clip earlier, when you arrived
1 here, after you talked about the photograph.
2 A. Yes, I did recognise the man who told us that we would be set
4 MR. NICHOLLS: And I'd now like to give the still from that
5 exhibit to the witness. If that can be placed on the ELMO, please.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Khan.
7 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, I just mention now that of course the
8 video that was shown to the witness of course mentions the name Fatmir
9 Limaj. I just raise that, obviously for your attention at this point.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
11 MR. NICHOLLS:
12 Q. And I'll ask you, Witness: When you were shown that video in --
13 before, here, did it have any writing or sound? Was there any of that
14 captioning underneath that you saw?
15 A. No, no. I don't think there were any captions. I didn't really
16 pay any attention, though.
17 Q. I'd like you to, if you could, in the same way mark the still to
18 the left of you with a pen. Please mark the person who you just said you
19 recognised as the -- it's off the screen -- you said as the person who
20 told you you would be set free; the same person from the other photo.
21 A. [Witness complies].
22 Q. Thank you.
23 MR. NICHOLLS: I'd like to move that into evidence as P81, please.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
25 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Prosecution Exhibit P81.
1 MR. NICHOLLS:
2 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, I want to keep talking back to where we
3 were, about what was going on in that room, the first room you were
4 brought into where you were questioned. Out of the other soldiers present
5 there, did you learn the names or nicknames of any of them?
6 A. Yes. One of them, who later brought us food and other supplies.
7 Q. What was his name?
8 A. Shala.
9 Q. What was he doing in the room during the events you've described,
10 during the questioning and during the beating of Genov? What was he doing
12 A. I'm really not sure. I didn't pay attention to individuals at
13 that moment.
14 Q. And you say that he brought you food and other supplies. How
15 often during your stay in the camp did you see this man again, Shala?
16 A. Several times a day.
17 Q. How did he treat you when you had contact with him?
18 A. With respect.
19 Q. The same thing -- the same questions that I asked you about the
20 commander, can you tell me as best you can what you remember of Shala's
21 appearance at that time. You can start with what you think his age was --
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: You can -- excuse me. I would at this point ask
23 that -- the question is self-evident. He does not need to lead him
24 through a description with suggestions.
25 MR. NICHOLLS: Well, I don't think asking what his age was is a
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 leading question.
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm concerned about what is about to come, Your
4 JUDGE PARKER: Continue to prompt attention to specific features,
5 if you think that will help, Mr. Nicholls, but not the answer.
6 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes. I don't think I got anywhere near suggesting
7 the answer, but I'll go ahead.
8 JUDGE PARKER: You keep wanting to justify yourself, Mr. Nicholls.
9 You've been given the green light. Take it before I change my mind.
10 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.
11 Q. Can you please describe Shala as you remember him, how he appeared
12 in 1998.
13 A. Well, he was of medium height, an older man with a moustache,
15 Q. Okay. Now, how did you come to leave that room in the house, the
16 room where you were first brought and questioned?
17 A. Well, they were talking amongst themselves and at one point they
18 told us to get up and that they were taking us elsewhere.
19 Q. And just as a follow-up for that, who was talking among
20 themselves, just to be clear?
21 A. Well, the soldiers, among themselves.
22 Q. And then what happened? Where were you taken?
23 A. They took us to the basement of the house that was next to this
25 Q. Were you told at this time how long you were going to be held
1 while you were being put in this basement? Anything -- any information
2 along those lines?
3 A. No. They didn't tell us anything.
4 Q. And who went with you to this basement? Did that -- can you tell
5 us who was put in the basement besides yourself.
6 A. I, my father, Cuk, and they carried Genov to the basement, too.
7 MR. NICHOLLS: If I could have -- give the witness back P79,
8 please, and that's the one which we all have a hard copy which doesn't
9 need to be displayed. It's under seal.
10 Q. Now, it's actually pretty self-evident from this diagram, but can
11 you tell the Court just by number and what is written which -- where the
12 basement was that you were brought to.
13 A. Between number 2A and toilet 2. The word is in English.
14 Q. And you've -- and -- okay. Thank you. And you've labelled the
15 location "basement." Is that correct?
16 A. Yes. Yes.
17 Q. Now, have you ever drawn or diagrammed that basement room?
18 A. The interior of the basement, you mean, with the rest?
19 Q. Yes.
20 A. Well, yes. The answer is yes.
21 Q. And when did you do that diagram?
22 A. In 2003, when the investigator came to visit us.
23 Q. Before you drew that diagram, were you shown any pictures,
24 sketches, anything by the investigator of the -- of that room that you
1 A. No, no.
2 MR. NICHOLLS: I'd like to now show the witness U003-2188. Your
3 Honours, for the same reasons as P79, I'd ask that we just look at that in
4 hard copy and not broadcast it.
5 Does everybody have that document?
6 Q. Do you recognise the document that's before you, sir?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Is your signature on the document?
9 A. Yes, it is, underneath the date on the right-hand side, in the
10 upper portion of the document.
11 Q. And is this the sketch which you've been telling us that you drew?
12 A. Yes, it is.
13 Q. Just to be very clear, did you personally draw -- I'm not talking
14 about the writing, but all of the drawing here of the diagram, did you
15 draw all of those lines or just some of them?
16 A. Well, the numbers and where our names are written, I did all that.
17 As for the square around everything, I'm not sure whether I drew it or the
18 investigator, but the door, the windows, I drew all of that.
19 Q. All right. Now, looking at the diagram, could you please explain
20 to us as much as you remember, and you can use the diagram, what this room
21 was like, and I mean the dimensions and what the different items you've
22 marked in the room are.
23 A. Well, the room was very small. It was, say, 2 metres by 4 or 3 by
24 4 -- 2 by 4, something like that.
25 Q. And you've indicated that there was -- can you explain what --
1 this is where you've indicated on the left and you've written that there
2 was a shelf.
3 A. Well, some kind of a shelf was there. Perhaps 40 centimetres up
4 from the floor, and its length could have been about 30 or 40 centimetres.
5 That's how wide it was, rather.
6 Q. And you've drawn two circles on the bottom left and one of them is
7 labelled "bucket." Can you tell us clearly what those two circles
9 A. That bucket was our toilet.
10 Q. And what is the smaller circle next to the bucket? What was that?
11 A. Well, that was some kind of drainage. I think it was a kind of
12 toilet, too, because we used that as a toilet as well. We used the bucket
13 to pass stool.
14 Q. I'd like to now show the witness P5.
15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
16 MR. NICHOLLS:
17 Q. Would you look at that image, sir, and tell me if you recognise
19 A. I do recognise it. That's the entrance into the basement and the
20 basement window.
21 MR. NICHOLLS: For the record, from our location booklet, P6, that
22 is room A5, U008-3676.
23 Mr. Younis, if we could look at the interior.
24 Q. Would you look at that picture, sir, the same exhibit, U008-3677.
25 Tell me if you recognise that photo.
1 A. The basement is where we were, but none of these things were
2 inside. The refrigerator wasn't there and all of these things that are on
3 the left-hand side. It was just an empty room with hay on the floor.
4 Q. The last photo, the next photo, same exhibit, U008-3678. I'd ask
5 you to look at that picture and tell us if you recognise it.
6 A. Yes. My father and I sat and slept in that corner.
7 Q. Just for the record, could you -- you've indicated on your
8 diagram, which we'll look at later, but could you tell us which corner you
9 mean by "that corner." If you could describe it.
10 A. In that corner on the right-hand side where the man is standing.
11 That's where my father slept by the wall, and I slept next to him.
12 Q. Thank you. Now, when the four of you were brought into this room
13 you started telling us about, was there anybody else in the room?
14 A. Yes. There were a few more people in there.
15 Q. Do you remember how many people were in the room when you were
16 brought in there?
17 A. I'm not sure at this point in time whether it was six or seven.
18 Q. Do you -- and what kind of people were these in the room? Who
19 were they, what sort of people?
20 A. You mean what ethnicity?
21 Q. Well, that and were these guards or soldiers or what kind of
22 people were they?
23 A. No. They were prisoners. There were three Albanians and four
24 Serbs -- three or four Serbs, prisoners, all of them.
25 Q. Do you remember the names or nicknames of any of those prisoners?
1 A. No. No, I never found out until only recently.
2 MR. NICHOLLS: Could the witness please be given back this sketch
3 under seal. I've forgotten the exhibit number. No, sorry, not that one.
4 The most recent one.
5 JUDGE PARKER: I suspect you may mean a document that has not yet
6 been put in evidence.
7 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Do you wish to tender it?
9 MR. NICHOLLS: I'll perhaps ask him a few more questions and then
10 seek to tender it, Your Honour.
11 Q. Witness, you're now looking at U003-2188, the sketch you drew of
12 the interior of the basement room where you were held prisoner. Is that
14 A. Yes, that's right.
15 Q. Now, around the perimeter from the top of the drawing and down the
16 right-hand side, you've drawn some oval shapes and written some words next
17 to them and some numbers. Can you tell us what these represent, what you
18 were drawing here. You could start maybe at the top left.
19 A. Well, these are drawings of people, where they were in that
20 basement, where they sat or where they slept.
21 Q. Please continue, sorry.
22 A. On the upper left-hand side, there were three Albanian men. They
23 sat there, and then my father and I and the rest. As you can see, it was
24 Genov, Cuk, and the four other men whose names I didn't know.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour, I would now tender that under seal,
3 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
4 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Prosecution Exhibit P82 under seal.
5 MR. NICHOLLS:
6 Q. While you were in this prison with the other men -- the other
7 prisoners you've indicated on your diagram, were you able to speak with
8 any of the other prisoners?
9 A. Well, we were not allowed to talk at all. But we did whisper and
11 Q. Did you overhear any conversations between other prisoners who
12 might have been whispering to each other?
13 A. I didn't really. I didn't pay attention, but they did talk among
15 Q. Now, do you remember when you gave your statement in January 2003
16 whether you were shown any photos that you identified?
17 A. Yes, yes.
18 Q. Were any of those photos that you identified of people -- well,
19 where were these -- who were the people in the photos you identified,
20 focusing now on the area of testimony we're talking about, the prison.
21 A. The investigator brought me some pictures, and in them I
22 identified the other prisoners -- well, not all of them but most of the
23 prisoners who were in that basement.
24 Q. And I showed you some of those same photos after you arrived here.
25 Isn't that right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. I'd like to show you a photo now, sir.
3 MR. NICHOLLS: This is from P54, which is under seal; however,
4 this photo can be displayed. It's U003-2164.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I recognise that person.
6 MR. NICHOLLS:
7 Q. I'm sorry. We've already done that one. You've identified that
8 person earlier in your testimony. I should have said 2166.
9 Do you recognise the person in that photograph?
10 A. Yes, I do.
11 Q. What can you -- where do you recognise him from?
12 A. Well, he was one of the people in the basement. Later on, we
13 heard from him that the vehicle they used to bring us to the camp and to
14 the school had originally been seized from him, that it was his vehicle.
15 Q. And could you just describe that conversation a little bit more,
16 how you learned that it was the same vehicle.
17 A. Well, he asked us where they caught us and how they brought us in.
18 We said that it was on the road to Prizren. And he asked us how it
19 happened, and we said that we were brought to a school, in a Golf car.
20 And he asked what kind of a Golf, and we said it was navy blue. And he
21 said, Yes, that's my Golf. They took me in that Golf and they away that
22 car of mine.
23 Q. Do you remember if you discussed any other features of the car,
24 other than its make and colour?
25 A. Yes. What was discussed were the Swiss licence plates.
1 Q. Thank you. Is there anything else that you remember about this
2 man? You've said you don't remember the names, but where he was from,
3 perhaps, anything like that?
4 A. No. I think that he and another man were going through Prizren
5 and they stopped them. This other man was also in the camp or in the
7 Q. I'd now like to show you another photo. The same exhibit number
8 U003-2168. Take a moment to look at that picture and let me know if you
9 recognise the person in it.
10 A. Yes, I do recognise him. He was with us in the basement. He had
11 a bullet hole in his leg.
12 Q. Is there anything else you remember about this man; where he was
13 from, how he'd come to be in the basement?
14 A. Well, he just told me that he had been on a bus, trying to -- that
15 he was trying to escape and that they shot at him and hit him in the leg.
16 Q. And then finally I'd like to show you another photo. P54 again,
17 U003-2169. Can you tell me if you recognise the man in that photograph.
18 A. Yes. This man and the man from the first picture that you showed
19 me were together, they were travelling together in that Golf car.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 Anything else you remember about this man, other than what you've
22 told us?
23 A. He was always smiling. Somehow he could make everybody smile all
24 the time.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 MR. NICHOLLS: I'm finished with that photograph.
2 Q. Now, you had drawn where people were in the room. Did people stay
3 in the same places -- sorry. First of all, how long -- how many days and
4 nights did you spend in this room?
5 A. I think about five -- three or five nights. I'm not sure at this
6 time. I think it was about five nights.
7 Q. Did the people who you've shown where they stayed in this room,
8 did they stay in the same places during that time or did people -- were
9 people able to move around in the room?
10 A. Well, people would perhaps move for a few minutes, but everybody
11 had to sit in their places, otherwise they would be beaten.
12 Q. And what about Genov? Was he able to move around at all when he
13 was in this room?
14 A. No. He was unable to move. I'm not sure, but something was
15 broken, either his leg or his back. But at any rate, he was unable to
17 Q. Now, I'm going to ask you to describe as well as you can remember
18 what the conditions in the room were like for you and the other prisoners
19 during the time that you spent there. First of all, what was the
20 temperature like in that room? How hot or cold was it?
21 A. The temperature was very high. It was hot. Since it was July, it
22 was very hot in the room because there were no openings. There was just a
23 small window. The area was very small and there were many people in it.
24 Q. And what was the air like in that room?
25 A. Very bad, since we had to relieve ourselves, sleep, and eat in
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 that room.
2 Q. You started talking about the floor earlier and talked about some
3 hay on it. Can you remember what the floor was made out of?
4 A. Well, it was a concrete floor with more water than cement in it.
5 It was very wet. The floor was very wet. It was probably also due to
6 some pipes that were broken inside the wall, and there was straw thrown
7 all over there.
8 Q. And what do you mean by "due to some pipes that were broken inside
9 the wall"? Can you just describe what that has to do with the floor being
10 wet a little more.
11 A. Well, in the wall behind my father and myself there was a leak.
12 Water was leaking in the very corner. I think that plumbing, a pipe in
13 the wall had been broken.
14 Q. Thank you. That's clear. What did you and the other prisoners
15 sleep on in that room? Were you provided with any kind of bedding,
16 blankets, anything like that?
17 A. No, nothing. We used our own shoes as cushions, as pillows, but
18 otherwise we slept on the hay.
19 Q. Could you describe what food you were provided with during the
20 time you were in the basement room.
21 A. Well, I really can't describe the food. It's impossible to
22 describe. I'm not sure if there was any meat in it. There was some kind
23 of a soup made of all kinds of things. I cannot really tell you what it
24 was made of. It looked more like animal fodder than anything that was fit
25 for humans.
1 Q. And how often were you provided with this food?
2 A. Once a day.
3 Q. And what about water for drinking; how was that given to you?
4 A. Every person received a bottle of water and that would be filled
5 once a day.
6 Q. And did you -- were you able to smoke -- or did you smoke in this
8 A. Yes. There were more cigarettes than we could smoke. We would be
9 given cigarettes two or three times a day.
10 Q. Now, you started, when you were describing your diagram, to talk
11 about the bucket that was used as a toilet. Did everybody in the prison,
12 in that room with you, use the same bucket? Was there just one bucket?
13 A. Yes. That was the only bucket that we had.
14 Q. How often was that bucket emptied?
15 A. Never.
16 Q. Were you -- what about, now, facilities for bathing? Were you
17 given any water for cleaning, for washing yourself?
18 A. No, no water was provided except -- there was no water except for
19 the water on the floor.
20 Q. How many hours a day, in a 24-hour period, were you and the other
21 men confined in the room?
22 A. 24 hours a day, without ever going out.
23 Q. Now, did -- was any medical care provided to any of the persons in
24 that room?
25 A. No. Although, as I have already said, one of them had a bullet
1 hole in his leg. He did not receive any medical treatment.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MR. NICHOLLS: I think this would be a good time, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE PARKER: We will adjourn until 10 minutes to 11.00.
5 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
6 --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.
7 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Nicholls.
8 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honours.
9 Q. Sir, just before that break we were -- you were telling us what
10 the room was like, what it was like to be inside that prison room. I
11 would now like you, as best you can, to describe the general condition of
12 the other prisoners in the room. And I don't think you need to describe
13 Genov's condition because you've already gone over that. So the other
14 prisoners in the room, people who were there when you arrived, who were
15 already there, how did they appear to you to be physically?
16 A. One of these persons, as I said, had a bullet hole in his leg and
17 he was in very bad shape because the wound was infested. The others were
18 in a very sorry state, too. Their clothes were also in very bad shape.
19 They were all in very bad shape.
20 Q. And how did their -- that's their physical state. What was their
21 mental state, as far as you could tell?
22 A. Well, it varied. Some were in very good mental state. Two or
23 three persons were very concerned about what would happen to them. But
24 most people for the most part thought about what would happen to them.
25 Q. And you, how did you feel while you were in that room for those
1 days and nights?
2 A. Very scared. I didn't know what would happen, whether they could
3 kill us or let us go.
4 Q. And how about your father?
5 A. I think he was also quite scared because I was with him. He was
6 more afraid for my -- on my behalf than as far as he was concerned.
7 Q. You described the clothing of the other prisoners as being dirty
8 or in bad shape. Can you describe what kind of clothing it was and --
9 That's not a very clear question, but describe what sort of clothing they
10 were wearing.
11 A. We were mostly in shirts, T-shirts and trousers. Nobody had any
12 kind of insignia, just your everyday civilian clothes.
13 Q. Who guarded that room you were kept in?
14 A. Do you mean in front of the room or in general?
15 Q. Well, both.
16 A. Well, we were not allowed or -- to look out of the window. That
17 was the order that we received, so I don't know if anybody stood in front
18 of the basement, but there were guards in the yard.
19 Q. Who, if you could tell, had the keys to the room? Could you tell
20 who opened the door to the room when food, water, things like that was
21 brought in?
22 A. Yes. Shala and another person, a younger person.
23 Q. And how many times during the time you were there did you see
24 Shala open the door to the room to bring food or water or cigarettes or
1 A. Well, he was mostly present there, but I really don't know whether
2 he would be the one who would open the door. But he was always there,
3 present in the basement.
4 Q. Did he actually come into the basement?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, while you were there did you observe whether any prisoners in
7 that room were beaten?
8 A. Yes, they were.
9 Q. Did you know who beat the prisoners?
10 A. Two or three men. They wore black masks over their faces.
11 Q. Were those men in any kind of -- well, could you describe the
12 clothing those men wore.
13 A. They were mostly in camouflage uniforms with the Albanian army
15 Q. How often did beatings occur while you were there, approximately?
16 A. Sometimes it would happen several times per day, but it did also
17 happen every day.
18 Q. What about at night?
19 A. Yes. They wouldn't let us sleep. They would wake us up with
20 flashlights, get in and beat people.
21 Q. Could you describe the beatings that you witnessed in that room.
22 A. Well, there were all kinds, from punches, kicks with military
23 boots to the head, rifle butts in the kidney area.
24 Q. You said it was two or three soldiers who wore masks who did this.
25 If you can tell, was it the same two or three soldiers or do you mean on
1 different occasions different groups of two or three soldiers would come
2 and beat the prisoners?
3 A. Well, as I said, they wore masks, so I really don't know. But I
4 think it was mostly always the same people who did that.
5 Q. Did you ever see Shala beat anybody in that room?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Were you beaten?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Was your father beaten?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Do you know why you and your father were not beaten?
12 A. I really don't know the reason for that.
13 Q. Was Shala present during any of the beatings you witnessed?
14 A. Well, I'm not sure if he was there every time, but he was present
15 at some of the occasions. He mostly was the one who unlocked the door.
16 Q. Now, at any times when he came -- when Shala came to the prison
17 room, did he speak to you?
18 A. He only asked me on one occasion how I was.
19 Q. And how was his behaviour to you then? Can you just describe his
20 demeanour and how he was acting towards you while he asked how you were
22 A. Well, it seemed to me that it was respectful.
23 Q. Was anybody in that room singled out? Did anybody receive a more
24 severe beating than the other prisoners?
25 A. Yes. It was Genov.
1 Q. Did he ever talk -- did you ever talk to Genov at all about these
2 beatings that he was suffering?
3 A. Well, yes. He would moan in pain and at one point he asked me if
4 I could kill him, to strangle him, because he could take the beatings no
6 Q. What did you say to him?
7 A. I apologised and I said I couldn't do it. I really couldn't kill
9 Q. I want to talk now with you about the end of this experience in
10 that prison room. How did you come to leave the basement prison room?
11 A. Well, since they took Genov out and brought him back at one point,
12 they told me to get out. I expected that I would be either killed or
13 beaten. They told me to get out and they told me that they needed to talk
14 to me.
15 Q. Who -- if you remember who asked you -- who told you to come out
16 and said that they needed to talk to you?
17 A. It was a man with a black mask. Shala was also present.
18 Q. Now, did you go out with them?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did you -- did anybody come with you from the prison or did you
21 leave alone?
22 A. At that point I was alone. I went out alone.
23 Q. If you could see or tell, how did your father react while they
24 were taking you out of the prison room, Shala and the other soldier?
25 A. Well, he was very frightened because we all knew what happened to
1 people who were taken out of the basement. So he kept telling them in a
2 scared way to take him instead of me, to kill him rather than me.
3 Q. And briefly can you tell the Trial Chamber what you mean by "we
4 all knew what happened to people who were taken out of the basement."
5 A. Well, mostly they would be beaten and then brought back. That's
6 what happened with Genov, and that's what I expected would happen to me.
7 Q. Now, where were you taken after you were brought out of the room?
8 Where did you go with Shala and the other soldier?
9 A. First they took me out and I asked them if I could get a breath of
10 fresh air because the stench in the basement was unbearable. They then
11 took me back to the room on the ground floor.
12 Q. All right. Now, just so we're clear, we may not need to use any
13 diagrams, is that room on the ground floor you're referring to the same
14 one where you were first brought into when you were brought into the camp
15 when you were questioned?
16 A. Yes. That's the room.
17 Q. And what happened in the room? Who was there and what were you
19 A. Well, Shala was there and one or two soldiers. They told me to
20 sit on the floor; I obeyed. They asked me if I was thirsty or hungry.
21 Q. What did you say?
22 A. I said, Yes, of course.
23 Q. And what happened next? What did they -- did they tell you the
24 purpose of why you were being brought out of the room -- out of the
25 basement room?
1 A. No. They didn't tell me anything. They just took me to that room
2 and gave me some food and something to drink. They didn't tell me why
3 they had taken me out.
4 Q. Did you speak to them and say anything to them, to Shala and the
5 other soldier or these soldiers who were present?
6 A. I'm not sure that I understand your question. What do you mean;
7 did I say anything?
8 Q. Did you ask them for anything or to do anything?
9 A. Well, I asked them if they could bring my father out of the
11 Q. What did they say?
12 A. No, not at that time.
13 Q. And then what happened next? Can you tell me the next time you
14 saw your father, how that happened.
15 A. Well, I think we played a game of chess. He asked me if I played
16 chess and I said, Of course I do. And then I asked him if it would be
17 possible for me to at least see my father and let him know that I was
18 okay. He said I could do that but that it was impossible for my father to
19 be let out at that time.
20 Q. And who is "he" in that answer you just gave? Who did you play
21 chess with and have this conversation with?
22 A. I apologise. It was Shala.
23 Q. No need to apologise. Thank you. And could you tell me now how
24 you came to see your father again.
25 A. They took me to a toilet that was located a certain distance away
1 from the basement, and I stopped for a moment to talk to my father to let
2 him know that I was okay. And then they decided to let him go, too.
3 Q. And then what happened with you and your father?
4 A. They took us back to that room, asked him whether he was thirsty,
5 whether he wanted some coffee. Of course he took the coffee, and we spent
6 a certain period of time there.
7 Q. How long was the conversation and game of chess with Shala?
8 A. Not longer than an hour.
9 Q. All right. Now, you say you spent a certain time in the room. Is
10 that still the downstairs room that we've been talking about?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Then what happens? Where are you taken after that? How do you
13 leave that room?
14 A. Well, I believe that Shala or somebody, one of the commanders,
15 decided to move us to the room upstairs.
16 Q. So that would be a room directly above the room you were in at
17 that point?
18 A. Yes.
19 MR. NICHOLLS: I'd like to show the witness P5. I'll ask
20 Mr. Younis if we can go to the upstairs of the main building A1 in
21 Prosecution P6.
22 Q. Witness, have I ever shown you this display before of this room?
23 And if we can circle, please.
24 Do you remember if I've ever shown you that room?
25 A. No, you didn't. You showed me just the downstairs room.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. Do you recognise the room that is before you?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. What room is that?
4 A. That's the room on the second floor. That's where we were kept.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honours, for the record, that's the top floor
7 of building A1 in image U008-3669 of Prosecution's Exhibit 6.
8 Q. Can you just briefly tell me how the room was different, if it was
9 different at all, when you were there in 1998.
10 And if we can spin around it once more, please.
11 A. The carpet was different. There was wallpapers and the colour of
12 the mattresses was different and the placement was also different. These
13 pictures were not there.
14 Q. Okay. Thank you. Who was in the room -- who else was in the
15 room, if anyone, when you were brought into that room?
16 A. There was an Albanian, a young man.
17 Q. And what was he doing there? What was his status there, if you
18 could tell?
19 A. Well, we were told later that he had been hiding from the Serb
20 police, because the Serb police allegedly had killed his lambs.
21 Q. Was there anybody else in the room?
22 A. Yes. There were soldiers present there, but most of the times
23 there were my father, myself, and the Albanian.
24 Q. And how long would you stay in this room? How many days or nights
25 did you spend in this room?
1 A. I'm not sure if we were there for two or three nights. I really
2 am not sure.
3 Q. Was there room guarded at all?
4 A. The door was locked at all times, but I don't think that there was
5 anybody standing guard in front of the door. There were soldiers
6 downstairs but not upstairs.
7 Q. And did you ever see Shala while you were in this room?
8 A. Yes, every day. He came there every day. He brought food.
9 Q. And did he continue to be respectful towards you the way you said
10 he was in your other meetings with him?
11 A. Yes, yes. He was very respectful towards both me and my father.
12 Q. All right. Now, I want to talk a little bit about your interview
13 with the investigator in January 2003. We've already talked about some of
14 the photos he showed you during that interview; photos of some prisoners,
15 an aerial photo, which you marked and labelled. Now, in addition to those
16 which we've talked about, did Investigator Lehtinen show you any other
17 photos, sheets of paper with multiple photos of persons on the same sheet?
18 A. Yes. There was the Albanian army.
19 Q. Now, as clearly as you can remember, please tell me what the
20 investigator said to you when he showed you these sheets of paper with
21 photos of several people on them. What did he tell you to do?
22 A. He told me to have a good look and to tell him whether I
23 recognised anyone on the pictures.
24 Q. And did he give you any other instructions at all? Just if you
25 remember. If you don't, it's okay.
1 A. No, I don't remember.
2 Q. Earlier you said -- a few moments ago, when I asked you about
3 these sheets of paper, who were on them, you said: "Yes. There was the
4 Albanian army." What do you mean by "Albanian army" in that answer, if
5 you can clarify a bit.
6 A. First he showed me photographs of Genov and Cuk. Then he asked me
7 if I recognised any of those people - among them was the photograph of
8 Shala - and I immediately got an idea that those were Albanians.
9 Q. Now, after you recognised Shala on the photo sheet, did you mark
10 the photo sheet in any way?
11 A. I'm not sure if I marked it, but I was 100 per cent certain that
12 it was him.
13 Q. How long did it take you to recognise Shala on the photo sheet you
14 were shown?
15 A. I recognised him very quickly.
16 Q. And what did you say to Investigator Lehtinen after you recognised
17 Shala on the photo sheet?
18 A. I just told him that it was Shala, that he was one of the soldiers
19 in the camp.
20 MR. NICHOLLS: I'd now like to show the witness U003-2190.
21 Q. Take a moment, sir, and look at that. Do you recognise this photo
22 sheet that's before you?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Where do you recognise it from?
25 A. I saw this sheet for the first time in 2003 when the investigator
1 came to see me and asked me if I was able to recognise any of these
3 Q. And who is the man in number -- photo number 8?
4 A. Shala.
5 Q. Is that the same photo you picked out when you were interviewed by
6 Investigator Lehtinen? Is this the same photo sheet?
7 A. It's not the same piece of paper; it's obviously a copy. But the
8 photograph itself was.
9 Q. All right. Is your signature on this photo sheet?
10 A. Yes. In the lower right-hand corner.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour, I'd move to admit that, please.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
14 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Prosecution Exhibit P83.
15 MR. NICHOLLS:
16 Q. Sir, I'd like to now go back to where we were talking about - I
17 don't have too many more questions for you - your experiences in that
18 upstairs room of the house which you identified for us. Could you hear at
19 all while you were in that room sounds from the outside, from the yard?
20 A. We could hear people speaking and a shot.
21 Q. And how often did you hear shots or a shot?
22 A. Perhaps several times, a few times.
23 Q. Were you allowed outside of that room at all during the time that
24 you stayed there? Were you allowed to leave the room?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. For what purpose?
2 A. To go to the toilet.
3 MR. NICHOLLS: I'd like to show the witness P79, which is under
4 seal, have that placed before him.
5 Q. Take a moment and look at that please, sir, and tell me if you've
6 marked the toilets on this diagram and how many toilets you've marked.
7 A. Yes. There are two toilets there on each side. They're marked
8 toilet 1 and toilet 2.
9 Q. And which toilet did you use when you were allowed outside the
10 room? The one marked WC1 or the one marked WC2?
11 A. The first time I went to WC1 and afterwards they told me to use
12 the other one, WC2.
13 Q. All right. Were you under guard when you would go to and from the
14 toilet or were you allowed to go on your own?
15 A. At first the guards accompanied us, and afterwards they let us go
16 on our own. When Shala was there with one or two other soldiers only,
17 then he would let us go on our own.
18 MR. NICHOLLS: I'd like to show an image to the witness now,
19 U008-3672. We can put it on Sanction -- actually, it might be best to
20 leave P79 with him for the moment. And that ERN number I've quoted is
21 from Prosecution Exhibit P6.
22 Q. I'd like you to look at that photo before you now, sir. Tell me
23 if you recognise what's shown there.
24 A. Yes. This is toilet number 2.
25 Q. And which door is the door to toilet number 2? We could put it on
1 the ELMO and that way you could point to it.
2 A. [Witness complies].
3 Q. Thank you. And for the record, you're indicating the door towards
4 the back of the photo, facing towards the photo, where one can see the --
5 that the door is open and can see into the room. In the back of the photo
6 there are two doors; it's the door on the left. Again, that's U008-3672.
7 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you. I'm done with that.
8 Q. Now, on your way to or from the toilet did you ever speak to
10 A. Yes. I went by the toilet -- I went by the basement --
11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- where they had first kept us and
13 I asked them how they were doing and how they felt. I asked how Genov
14 was, whether he was there, and they said that they had released him.
15 MR. NICHOLLS:
16 Q. And do you know who the two men -- or do you know who you spoke to
17 when you said "they"? Who was that in the basement room where you had
18 been in prison?
19 A. Serb prisoners.
20 Q. Can you tell me - I could show you the photos again if you think
21 that would help - which of the prisoners it was you spoke to, or if you
22 could describe them and tell me which one it was.
23 A. Well, it's all the same to me. Whatever suits you better.
24 Q. Let me show you the same -- let me show you the photos. We can do
25 it on Sanction. Could we have U003-2166, please.
1 A. No.
2 Q. Could we have U003-2168, please.
3 A. No.
4 Q. And U003-2169. Do you remember if this was one of the men you
5 spoke to?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. All right. Other than what you've said about how they told you
8 that Genov was released, did they give you any other information about
10 A. No. I just asked how Genov was and they told me that they took
11 him out and that they told them later that they had released them. Now, I
12 wasn't sure whether they actually knew what had happened to Genov or not.
13 Q. All right. And just to be clear from your last answer, if I can,
14 "they," the man you've identified, told you that Genov was taken out.
15 And this man told you later that the soldiers or guards had told the Serbs
16 and the prisoners that Genov had been released. Is that right?
17 A. I'm really not sure whether the soldiers had told them. But they
18 told me that they found out that Genov had been released.
19 Q. All right. Now, other than this short conversation that you've
20 just told us about, did you speak -- did you have any other conversations
21 when you made trips to use the toilet?
22 A. No. They just asked us how we felt.
23 Q. Did you overhear any conversations from anywhere when you went to
24 use the toilet?
25 A. Yes. I heard conversations from the room next to the toilet.
1 MR. NICHOLLS: And, I'm sorry, if we could give the witness P79
2 again, please --
3 Q. Oh, you've got it in front of you.
4 Can you please, by looking at that diagram, tell me where it
5 sounded to you as though those sounds were coming from in relation to WC2.
6 A. It is hard to show it on this photograph, but the room on the
7 immediate right when approaching the toilet. That's where the door was
8 and that's where I overheard the conversation.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 MR. NICHOLLS: Maybe if we could -- Mr. Younis, if we could show
11 that same photo from P5.
12 Q. Looking at that image --
13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
14 MR. NICHOLLS:
15 Q. Looking at that image in front of you, can you tell us there where
16 sounded to you as though you were hearing conversations coming from, which
18 This is U008-3672 which is in front of the witness.
19 A. The right-hand side, the door.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 And just for the record, that's the door immediately to the right
22 of the door of the toilet which you've identified for us before?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Could you hear what was being said at all?
25 A. No, I couldn't. It was a quiet conversation because obviously
1 someone had said something to them, too, so they didn't dare speak out
2 loud either, but quiet conversations could be overheard.
3 Q. All right. Now in general, going back now to your time in the
4 upstairs room, the living room where you were -- spent with your father,
5 how were you treated there in general? Can you describe how you were
6 treated after you were taken out of the prison room.
7 A. Well, for the most part they didn't mistreat us, except for one
8 man who mistreated us psychologically rather than physically. But for the
9 most part they respected us.
10 Q. Can you tell me what that psychological mistreatment was.
11 A. Well, at one moment he came with a pistol and he sat in front of
12 me and my father and he said to my father that he should say goodbye to
13 his son because he would kill me.
14 Q. And how was that man who threatened you dressed? Can you describe
15 him at all?
16 A. He wore a camouflage uniform.
17 Q. Did he have a mask on?
18 A. No.
19 Q. How did you learn that you were going to be leaving the camp, that
20 you were going to be set free?
21 A. Well, one of the men in charge came -- or actually, Shala first
22 said that we should not be afraid, that they would let us go. But then
23 after that, one of the men in charge came up to us and said that they
24 would release us, he wasn't sure when, but he said that they would release
1 Q. And where did this happen?
2 A. Upstairs in the house, in that room there.
3 Q. Did he tell you how you would be released or who you would be
4 released to or how this was going to take place?
5 A. He didn't. He just said that they would release us, but that we
6 would first have to make a statement on video.
7 Q. Thank you. Which one of the men in charge was this who came and
8 told you you would be released and you would have to make a statement on
10 A. I've already pointed him out. The same man who is on the
12 Q. Thank you. And just for complete clarity, the same man that you
13 drew an arrow towards on the photograph from the Internet?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. How did he treat you during this conversation when he was speaking
16 to you and your father?
17 A. I don't know. I would say with respect and in a soldierly
19 Q. Were you -- did you in fact make a statement on a video before you
20 were released?
21 A. Yes, we did.
22 Q. Can you describe that process, where you did that, what you were
23 told to do, and how it was done.
24 A. Well, about four or five soldiers in uniform walked in carrying
25 video cameras. They wore berets and most of them had dark glasses on,
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 too. They were heavily armed.
2 Q. And then what happened?
3 A. They told us to stand in front of the camera and to talk about how
4 they behaved to us and not to dare show any fear.
5 Q. And what did -- did you and your father make these statements at
6 the same time, together, or separately?
7 A. No, separately. I'm not sure whether he went first or me, but we
8 both made a statement.
9 Q. And do you remember, generally speaking, what you said on this
11 A. First we introduced ourselves. We had to say that they fed us
12 regularly and how they behaved towards us, that we were not mistreated.
13 Q. And how long did this take?
14 A. They had to start all over again several times. They were telling
15 me to calm down, not to show any fear, but I did not know what would
16 happen after this statement so I was a bit afraid of making that
17 statement. They said that if I showed fear one more time, they would kill
19 Q. Now, please tell the Chamber as best you remember how you actually
20 left the camp. How long was it after this statement was completed?
21 A. I'm not sure whether it was the day after that statement.
22 Q. And how did you leave? Tell us how you left, where you were
23 brought, who took you where, how you came to actually leave the camp.
24 A. Well, a Jeep parked in the yard. They put black blindfolds over
25 our eyes and they drove us somewhere.
1 Q. Were there any markings or insignia on the Jeep, anything special
2 about it?
3 A. I don't know. I didn't see.
4 Q. And how long does this journey in the car take -- in the Jeep,
6 A. Perhaps 10 or 15 minutes.
7 Q. And then what happens?
8 A. We entered a small town where there were quite a few people in the
9 centre. Most of them were armed, and it was all men.
10 Q. Did you know which town you were in?
11 A. No.
12 Q. And when were the blindfolds -- when had the blindfolds been taken
14 A. As soon as we got out to the main road, the asphalt road, before
15 we entered town.
16 Q. And then what happened in the town after the Jeep stopped?
17 A. The men, these terrorists, got out and they crossed the street.
18 On the other side of the street a Jeep was parked of the UN -- of UNICEF,
20 Q. What organisation was the Jeep from?
21 A. I think UNICEF.
22 Q. And then what happened?
23 A. The Albanians entered a place that looked like a village
24 restaurant. Then they walked out, together with some people from UNICEF,
25 and they transferred us to their Jeeps.
1 Q. And then where did you go, what happened?
2 A. They drove us out of that town, in those Jeeps. I'm not sure
3 where, but we reached a Serb police station.
4 Q. And when did you meet up with your mother again? The first time
5 after being released, I'm speaking about.
6 A. Three days after that.
7 Q. And where was that?
8 A. In Pristina.
9 Q. Where was it in Pristina?
10 A. In the apartment of a lady who had sent us to Kosovo; Ruzica
12 Q. And who was she? What was her position?
13 A. I think that she was in charge of the Kosovo Red Cross, the Red
14 Cross for the province of Kosovo.
15 Q. And -- and did you find out when you met your mother what she'd
16 been doing during the time that you'd been missing, held captive?
17 A. Yes. She stated in public, on television, what had happened and
18 where they kidnapped us.
19 Q. Now, when you were with Ruzica Simic at her house, did you meet
20 with anybody else? And I'm talking about people other than family
21 members, other than people working for the Red Cross.
22 A. Well, at one point in time a man came and asked us whether we
23 recognised a person; I don't know exactly who it was. I don't know
24 whether it was his brother or his relative. It was a long time ago.
25 Q. Do you remember the name of this man or where he was from?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Did he show you anything?
3 A. I can't remember.
4 Q. Do you remember whether you were able to give -- to answer any of
5 his questions or not?
6 A. Yes, I was.
7 Q. And what did you tell him?
8 A. I think that he asked me whether I recognised a person in a
9 picture. I'm not sure who that was, but I do remember that that person
10 was with us in that basement.
11 Q. And just to be very clear, you remember that the person was with
12 you in the basement in the camp you'd just been released from?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And do you remember anything else about the person who had been --
15 who he was seeking information about who had been in the basement with you
16 in the camp?
17 A. No.
18 MR. NICHOLLS: One moment, Your Honours.
19 [Prosecution counsel confer]
20 MR. NICHOLLS:
21 Q. Thank you very much, sir. I don't have any more questions for you
22 at the moment.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Khan, how are we situated?
24 MR. KHAN: Well, Your Honour, as I mentioned this morning, there
25 is the issue regarding the further investigations. Perhaps my friend
1 Mr. Guy-Smith can continue for the time being. I have been told by my
2 friend Mr. Black, and Mr. Nicholls, they've made some efforts and it seems
3 that the web site itself was referred to by a newspaper or some other
4 Internet site back in 1997, I think it was -- or I don't remember the date
6 MR. NICHOLLS: What we showed you, just to be clear, is in May
7 1993 there was a link to the site and a description of it -- sorry, in May
8 1999 there was a link to the site and a description of the site on the
9 Business Week web site.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Do I take it that you would prefer to delay for a
11 time, Mr. Khan, your examination?
12 MR. KHAN: Yes, in candour, I don't know -- this is out of a
13 matter of prudence. I don't know if by Monday we will be able to obtain
14 the necessary information but we won't seek to delay it beyond on Monday.
15 I know it is available. There are experts out there who are very
16 expensive, hundreds of pounds, I'm told, per hour, that have the expertise
17 in going back to web sites and finding out what was on a web site at a
18 particular time. But I think it's a matter that we should at least try
19 and look into, if not by these expensive experts, by us perhaps.
20 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour, we'll keep looking at it. But my
21 understanding primarily of what we've established is that the web site was
22 in operation in 1999, so I think that narrows down any possible missing
23 information quite a bit just relating specifically to any photos. So all
24 cross-examination other than that one question I think could take place.
25 And if there is, we could wait until Monday, and if there's more on that
1 single specific issue, that's fine, but there may not be an answer or
2 there may not need to be any further cross, depending on what's found out.
3 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, I don't want to keep jumping up. I don't
4 want to delay matters. I have stated the case quite squarely. There are
5 other options, of course. If my learned friend Mr. Guy-Smith finishes
6 with plenty of time to spare, one option, of course, is that I continue
7 and if investigations come to light that -- well, if we have the funds to
8 make these investigations at first instance there are other avenues
9 available to us. But at the moment I thought out of prudence I should
10 make attempts to look into this further because, of course, it could be
11 somewhat important for my client.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
13 Mr. Guy-Smith, you've been named a couple of times. Do you have a
14 view whether you would be prepared to proceed now?
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: I -- I was going to suggest that perhaps a
16 solution to the problem would be that I do proceed now. I may well have
17 some questions with regard to the Internet site; however, I believe that I
18 may be able to ask those questions and, in the event some of the concerns
19 that have been voiced do come into play, there will be a mechanism whereby
20 I will be either able to remedy or recall, if need be, any witnesses for
21 purposes of cross-examinations. But if I have the permission of my
22 colleague here, I'm more than happy to stand at the podium for a bit.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. If you would proceed then,
24 Mr. Guy-Smith.
25 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Cross-examined by Mr. Guy-Smith:
2 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
3 A. Good afternoon.
4 Q. I represent Haradin Bala. He is one of the individuals who is
5 presently sitting at this trial. I would like to ask you questions in a
6 number of different areas. In the event you have any difficulties
7 understanding any of my questions, please do let me know. Okay?
8 A. [No interpretation].
9 Q. This entire incident that occurred to you is something that caused
10 you then a great deal of distress. Correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And would it be fair to say that it is an incident that you have
13 attempted to, to the best of your ability, erase from your mind?
14 A. Things like these cannot be forgotten.
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I'm not getting sound for
16 some reason.
17 Q. I understand your answer. My question is: It's something you've
18 tried to do?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. It's something that in fact you have been reluctant to speak of?
21 A. Yes, that is correct.
22 Q. It is a conversation that you have not had with your family over
23 these number of years since the incident. Correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And it is something that, although you experienced this with your
1 father, it's something that you and your father have not spoken of since
2 it occurred. Correct?
3 A. Well, perhaps we did speak a few times, but not any lengthy
4 conversations. We perhaps exchanged just a few words about what the house
5 looked like, what the yard looked like, but not in any great detail.
6 Q. When you say that you perhaps did speak a few times, could you
7 tell the Tribunal when these conversations were. And perhaps if it's of
8 any help to you, were these conversations before you surfed on the 'net in
9 1999 or after you surfed on the 'net?
10 A. Before and after that.
11 Q. Before you surfed on the 'net in 1999 because of your interest in
12 what was going on in Kosovo, sir, did you have an opportunity to speak to
13 any investigators about your experiences?
14 A. I don't understand your question. Do you mean an investigator
15 from here or from Serbia?
16 Q. Well, let's start with from Serbia. I take it that you had an
17 opportunity to speak to an investigator from Serbia. Is that correct?
18 A. No, not in 1999. We did not have any conversations.
19 Q. Were you ever present when your father had an opportunity to speak
20 to an investigator from Serbia?
21 A. No, as far as I'm able to remember.
22 Q. Were you aware of the fact that your father spoke with an
23 investigator from Serbia?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Before 1999 is what my question refers to for the moment, before
1 you started surfing on the 'net.
2 A. Yes. The conversations took place after our release from the
4 Q. How many conversations did you have after you were released from
5 the camp with the Serbian investigators?
6 A. Perhaps two or three times, as far as I can remember.
7 Q. In the first of those conversations, was that a conversation that
8 you had with your father present?
9 A. I don't remember.
10 Q. Do you have any information that would assist you with regard to
11 whether or not your father was present at the first conversations you had
12 with the Serbian authorities? And by that I mean any notes, any diaries,
13 or journals.
14 A. No.
15 Q. Do you recall the Serbian authority speaking with your father
16 after you were released from the camp?
17 A. Yes, I remember. It was at the Red Cross in Pristina.
18 Q. And were you present at the time that your father was having a
19 conversation with Serbian authorities after you were released from the
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. How long did that conversation last, if you remember?
23 A. I don't remember.
24 Q. How many people were present in that conversation, apart from
25 yourself and your father, if you remember?
1 A. Ruzica Simic, among others. There were three or four other
2 people. I'm really not sure.
3 Q. As you sit here today, could you tell us, those three or four
4 other people, were they men or women?
5 A. I don't remember.
6 Q. Can you tell us as you sit here today whether they were dressed in
7 civilian clothes or wearing uniforms of any sort.
8 A. They were in civilian clothes, in suits.
9 Q. Now, you mentioned that there was perhaps two or three
10 conversations that you had with Serbian authorities. And what I'd like to
11 discuss with you at this moment is with regard to the other conversations
12 that were had with Serbian authorities. In each of those conversations
13 were you sitting, listening to your father discuss what had happened at
14 the camp?
15 A. Yes. The first time it happened as soon as we walked into the Red
16 Cross building. We sat down and we discussed what had happened. And the
17 second time was at the table where there were several other persons
19 Q. And when you say "we discussed," is it fair to say that both you
20 and your father were involved in a question/answer discussion with some
21 members of the police, the Serbian police, that is?
22 A. Well, my father spoke for most of the time. They just asked me
23 how I felt at that time.
24 Q. So apart from asking you that one specific question, which is how
25 you felt, you did not give any further information to the Serbian police
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 with regard to your experiences at the camp. True?
2 A. I don't remember.
3 Q. Who you saw at the camp. True?
4 A. I don't remember.
5 Q. Who you spoke to at the camp. True?
6 A. I don't remember.
7 Q. What food you ate at the camp. Correct?
8 A. No, I don't remember.
9 Q. Where you stayed at the camp. True?
10 A. I don't remember.
11 Q. The identification of any individuals that you met at the camp.
13 A. No.
14 Q. The clothes that any individuals were wearing at the camp.
16 A. No.
17 Q. The movements that you, you personally, were involved in in the
18 camp, and by that I mean from the area that you've called the basement to
19 the area that you've called the house. Correct?
20 A. That's correct. We didn't discuss anything.
21 Q. Nor did you speak of, with the Serbian police, the conversations
22 you had with the individual you believed to be Shala. Correct?
23 A. I don't remember.
24 Q. You're clear about not speaking with the Serbian police with
25 regard to identification of any individuals. Right? That's something
1 you're clear you did not do.
2 A. I'm not sure. I don't remember.
3 Q. Well, you certainly spoke to the Serbian police at the time that
4 you were meeting with your father, with them, about playing chess with
5 Shala, did you not?
6 A. I don't remember at this time.
7 Q. Would it be fair to say that with regard to the other matters that
8 you've testified, both today and yesterday about, you do not remember
9 speaking to the Serbian police shortly after you were released from the
10 camp about any of those matters, sir?
11 A. The conversations -- there were conversations about the
12 identification. But I don't remember any more than that because I was in
13 a state of shock.
14 Q. When you say "there were conversations about identifications,"
15 which you don't remember because of your understandable state, do you
16 recall whether or not the Serbian police who you were speaking with were
17 taking notes?
18 A. I don't remember.
19 Q. Could you tell us as you sit here today about how long the total
20 number of hours were spent in your interviews with the Serbian police
21 shortly after you left the camp.
22 A. Perhaps an hour -- an hour or two hours.
23 Q. When you say "an hour or two hours," does that take into account
24 all of the conversations? Because as I understand your testimony, there
25 were two or three conversations.
1 A. Two hours.
2 Q. Do you remember as you sit here today how long after the first
3 time you met with the Serbian police you had the second interview with
5 A. I think that the first day after we were released there was a talk
6 at the Red Cross. And then the day after, there was this other
7 conversation with them.
8 Q. Is that the sum total of interviews that you and your father had
9 with the Serbian police after you were released from the camp?
10 A. In Pristina, yes.
11 Q. Did you have any interviews with Serbian police after you were
12 released from the camp anywhere outside of Pristina?
13 A. It was at the police checkpoint at the entrance to Pristina. I
14 think that this part belonged to the Serb police. They stopped the UNICEF
15 Jeep and asked us who we were.
16 Q. At that time did you have an interview with them about your
17 experiences at the camp, with the Serbian police at the checkpoint?
18 A. No. I think that the only question was who we were and where we
19 were coming from.
20 Q. Apart from the three times you have just mentioned, did you have
21 any other contact with Serbian authorities before you left Kosovo?
22 A. We spent the few days in the home of Ruzica Simic, so we were in
23 contact with her and with the Red Cross people.
24 Q. During the time that you were in contact with Ruzica Simic, did
25 you tell her about your experiences at the camp?
1 A. Well, she asked us how it was down there. We explained to her how
2 it was.
3 Q. I want to distinguish, if I can, for a minute between what you did
4 and what your father did. When there were discussions with Ruzica Simic,
5 was it your father talking to her and you listening in the same fashion
6 that this was occurring when you were speaking with the Serbian police?
7 A. Well, the conversation with them was mostly about how we felt down
8 there and -- in fact, the conversation with her, she only wanted to know
9 whether we had been maltreated down there. It wasn't so much about the
10 facts, what had happened, when it happened.
11 Q. What I'm trying to understand is whether or not you had a
12 one-to-one conversation with this woman. Did you speak to her by yourself
13 without your father present?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Okay. And would it be fair to say that in the conversations she
16 was having, trying to make a determination of how you were treated, she
17 was having a conversation with your father. You were present; true?
18 A. That's true.
19 Q. You were listening to what was being said. Correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And sometimes you would add information. True?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. But the lion's share, the conversation that was occurring was a
24 conversation that was occurring between Ruzica Simic and your father;
1 A. Yes, that is correct.
2 Q. That is exactly the same thing that occurred when you were
3 speaking with the Serbian police. Correct? And by that I mean the
4 Serbian police were speaking with your father. True?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You were present?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Listening in and on occasion adding information?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And I want to make sure because I don't want to leave Kosovo
11 without having covered all of the interviews your father was in when you
12 were present. Have we missed any?
13 A. I don't remember, but I don't think so.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Is that a convenient time, Mr. Guy-Smith?
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: It is, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE PARKER: We will resume at quarter to 1.00.
17 --- Recess taken at 12.26 p.m.
18 --- On resuming at 12.47 p.m.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Guy-Smith.
20 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Q. Before moving to your new home - and please be aware of the fact
22 that I have no interest in knowing where that home is - in 1998, shortly
23 after left the camp, did you receive counselling because of your shock?
24 A. No, I refused counselling. My father accepted medical help,
1 Q. When your father accepted medical help, did you accompany him?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Between the time that you left the camp and today's date, have you
4 had any conversations with any police authorities from Belgrade? And by
5 "you," I mean you, sir, not you and your father.
6 A. I don't remember.
7 Q. Once again, a question that I asked you previously: Do you have
8 any kind of note, journal, or diary that would assist you in remembering
9 whether or not you have had any conversations with any police authorities
10 from Belgrade?
11 MR. NICHOLLS: Well, sorry, but as he says, since he's asked it
12 before and got an answer before, I don't see the need to re-ask it.
13 JUDGE PARKER: I think it's a distinct question whether, for
14 example, there might be any diary that could be referred to.
15 Please carry on, Mr. Guy-Smith.
16 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you.
17 Q. Do you have my question in mind?
18 A. Yes, I do remember it. I did not keep any sort of diary.
19 Q. When you first -- before you came to your new home, did you have
20 any discussion with any embassy authorities concerning your time at the
22 A. No, I did not.
23 Q. You then came to your new home. Correct?
24 A. Yes, that is correct.
25 Q. Between the time that you left Kosovo travelling however long that
1 took you, and I'm once again not asking for that information, during the
2 period of your travels before arriving at your new home, did you have
3 conversations with any individuals or representatives of any investigative
4 organisations concerning your experiences at the camp, other than the ones
5 you have so far mentioned to us?
6 A. No.
7 Q. When you arrived at your new home, that was in the year 1998, was
8 it not?
9 A. Yes, in September 1998.
10 Q. And for the balance of that year, from September through December
11 of 1998, during that period of time, did you and your father have any of
12 the brief discussions you told us about earlier?
13 A. Do you mean the conversations between us two or with any
15 Q. Just between you two.
16 A. Well, there were conversations, just a few of them, how we felt
17 after all that. Nothing more than that was discussed.
18 Q. Moving to the year 1999, did you continue to live in your new
19 home. Correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And it's the year 1999 that you have some interest in what's going
22 on in Kosovo, such an interest that you begin to look on the Internet for
23 information concerning Kosovo. Correct?
24 A. Yes. Even before that we had an interest but not as much as we
25 did after we finally got a computer.
1 Q. Before you got the computer, while you were in your new home, were
2 you met -- did you meet - by that I mean you and your father for the
3 moment - with any journalists, newspaper reporters, television reporters
4 concerning your experiences?
5 A. [No interpretation].
6 Q. I think that it's important, if you don't mind terribly, either
7 speaking up a bit or moving closer to the microphone.
8 A. No. There were no conversations between my father, myself, and
9 any journalists.
10 Q. To your knowledge, did your father have any conversation with any
11 journalists between the time that you first arrived at your new home and
12 the time that you obtained the computer?
13 A. There was a local journalist. He only asked us about the
14 situation in Kosovo, what was going on in Kosovo and what we thought about
15 all of that.
16 Q. When was that?
17 A. I think it was 1999.
18 Q. Was that before you got the computer or after you obtained the
20 A. I'm not quite sure -- I'm not sure.
21 Q. And you participated in that interview also, I take it from the
22 answer that you've just given, which is: "He only asked us about the
23 situation in Kosovo."
24 A. Yes, I was present in the room.
25 Q. Did you add information to what your father was saying in the same
1 fashion that you had done when speaking with the Serbian police?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Could you tell us --
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: Perhaps we should go into private session.
5 [Private session]
11 Pages 1494-1499 redacted. Private session.
10 [Open session]
11 MR. GUY-SMITH:
12 Q. Apart from the contact you had with this local television station
13 in -- I believe we are still in the year 1998 and 1999 before you obtained
14 your computer, did you have any contact with any other individuals
15 concerning your experiences at the camp?
16 A. No. No, we didn't.
17 Q. And I take it that you continued to refuse any counselling from
18 the time you reached your new home up until the time you obtained your
19 computer. Correct?
20 A. Yes, that is correct.
21 Q. Do you remember when you obtained this new computer?
22 A. Sometime in 1999. I'm not sure of the month.
23 Q. Well, as I understand -- understood your testimony, when you first
24 arrived at your new home, you were in school. Correct?
25 A. Not immediately. I completed high school in Kosovo, and after we
1 moved away I continued my education a year later.
2 Q. Do you recall whether or not you obtained this computer before you
3 began your education, and by that I mean continued your education at your
4 new home?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And when you continued your education, do you recall whether the
7 education that you continued was in the fall of 1999?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. So sometime between, perhaps, January and September of 1999 is
10 when your family obtained this computer. Correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Before obtaining this computer, you were familiar, were you not,
13 with surfing the 'net, as it's called in certain parlance?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And at some point in time I take it - once again, please do
16 correct me if I'm wrong - either you or you and your father decided to
17 find out what was going on in Kosovo, and as a result of that decision,
18 began looking for information on the Internet. Correct?
19 A. Yes, that is correct.
20 Q. Was it you who found this particular web site, www.kosovo.com?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And when you found this particular web site, is that something you
23 found by hunting around or was that a web site that you had been referred
24 to by someone else?
25 A. I searched for it. I typed the word "Kosovo" in the search engine
1 and that's the first site that came up.
2 Q. Do you use Google?
3 A. [In English] Yahoo.
4 Q. I think Google is better. When you --
5 JUDGE PARKER: I'm told Google did not exist in 1999.
6 MR. GUY-SMITH: I have to think about that. I take the point.
7 Q. When you got this information and you found this particular web
8 site, you spent a fair amount of time looking at this web site, didn't
10 A. Yes, that's correct.
11 Q. And would it be fair to say that in your estimation this web site
12 is a balanced web site, a web site that gives all sides of the picture on
13 what's going on in Kosovo?
14 A. No. This is a web site that is mainly related to Serb Orthodox
15 churches in Kosovo.
16 Q. How many times do you think you personally visited this web site -
17 and by that I mean reviewed and looked at the information on it - between
18 the time you first got a computer and the time you started your studies?
19 A. Maybe once or twice a week.
20 Q. And when you visited this web site, did you spend a fair amount of
21 time on the web site? And by that I mean could you tell us how many links
22 you may have looked on the web site, what information you pulled off of
23 this web site then?
24 A. Well, for the most part it was daily news, what was going on in
25 Kosovo at the moment, and there were pictures from Kosovo as well.
1 Q. Now, when you looked at this web site, were you looking at it
2 always by yourself or was this a family affair where your father, your
3 mother, and your brother would participate in obtaining information about
4 something that was important to you?
5 A. No. I mostly did my own searches and looked at what was going on
6 at the time.
7 Q. Do you recall as you sit here today commenting -- commenting to
8 your father when you found something of interest?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you recall how many times you did that? And once again I'm
11 talking about between the time that you first got the computer up to the
12 time that you began your studies in the fall.
13 A. I don't know. I really don't know how many times.
14 Q. More than a handful?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And after you did this with your father, for example, you saw
17 something that was noteworthy, you and he talked about Kosovo. Correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And in some of those conversations you and he talked about how
20 lucky you felt having survived the experiences that you'd had. Right?
21 A. Yes, that's correct.
22 Q. And in some of those conversations you talked about and remembered
23 some of the things that you'd seen, that you'd heard, that you'd felt
24 while you were at that camp. True?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. You start your education in the fall of 1999. And from the fall
2 until the end of that year, 1999, December that would be, obviously, I
3 take it you continued in the same fashion to look at this particular web
4 site. Correct?
5 A. Yes, but with less interest.
6 Q. When you say "with less interest," do you mean that you found the
7 subject growing old and that there were new challenges in your life then?
8 Or do you mean that you were looking at it less frequently?
9 A. At that moment I was more interested in things that had to do with
10 my education rather than what was going on in Kosovo.
11 Q. Okay. Could you tell us about how many times, if you could - and
12 I understand it's but an estimate - how many times a week you would look
13 at the web site during that period of your life.
14 A. Well, perhaps once or twice a week.
15 Q. And during that period of your life, that once or twice a week
16 that you would look at the web site, do you recall whether during that
17 period of time there was anything noteworthy that you recognised that you
18 discussed with your father?
19 A. Yes. There were pictures there of Albanian soldiers.
20 Q. When you saw those pictures of Albanian soldiers, that's something
21 that you discussed with your father. Correct?
22 A. Yes, that is correct.
23 Q. That's something you discussed with your father on more than one
24 occasion. Correct?
25 A. Yes, that is correct.
1 Q. Now, in the year 2000 - and rather than break the year up by six
2 months or so, I'll just do the entire year of 2000 - in the year 2000 you
3 continued with your studies. Correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And during that period of time, in the year 2000, was your family
6 contacted by any investigators concerning themselves with what had
7 occurred in 1998?
8 A. No. I don't remember but I don't think so.
9 Q. And just to be sure. For the last part of 1999 I take your answer
10 to be the same; that your family was not contacted, as far as you can
11 remember, by any investigators concerning these incidents?
12 A. No.
13 Q. 2001, by this point in time, if I understood your previous
14 testimony correctly, you are probably not frequenting this web site as
16 A. Yes, that is correct.
17 Q. Checking it on occasion?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And of course any time that anything was noteworthy, that was
20 something that you and your father would discuss. Correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Now, I've noticed - and I do apologise - that I haven't mentioned
23 your brother with regard to these discussions. So very quickly, when you
24 notice something noteworthy on the Internet, did you have discussions with
25 your brother? And what I'm talking about is from the period of time when
1 you first obtained the computer until the year 2000.
2 A. Yes, but not as much as I did with my father.
3 Q. And how about with your mother? Would the same answer be true for
4 your mother?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And by that -- by yes, you did but not as much with your father?
7 A. Yes, that is correct.
8 Q. Apart from the one web site that you've mentioned, the
9 www.kosovo.com, did you visit any other web sites that dealt with matters
10 pertaining to Kosovo during this period of time, and by that I mean from
11 the time you first got the computer through the year 2000?
12 A. Just the press agencies from Serbia.
13 Q. And when you say "just the press agencies from Serbia," I don't
14 think there's any trouble identifying those in open court, is there?
15 JUDGE PARKER: No.
16 MR. GUY-SMITH:
17 Q. Could you identify those for us, please.
18 A. Mostly B92, www.b92.com. It all depends. I mostly went to
19 Serbian sites.
20 Q. And I take it your answers would be the same with regard to the
21 kinds of discussions you had with your father about those sites that we've
22 discussed when it comes to the discussions you had with your father about
23 the www.kosovo.com site. Correct? When you found something noteworthy,
24 you two would have a discussion about it, and you would in those
25 discussions, of course, discuss matters that were quite unique to you and
1 to your father.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. The years 2001 and 2002 I take it are pretty much the same. Is
4 that a fair statement?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And by "pretty much the same," you were periodically checking in,
7 seeing what was going on, digesting information and commenting on it when
9 A. Yes, that is correct.
10 Q. When is the first time that you became aware of interest by
11 investigators for the ICTY in you and your father's story?
12 A. It was in late 2002. They contacted my grandmother and asked her
13 if they could speak to us in this regard. She later gave them our
14 address, and then they came to see us in January.
15 Q. Without telling us where your grandmother is presently residing,
16 when your grandmother received the information that investigators from the
17 ICTY were interested in talking to you, she contacted your father or your
18 mother. Correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. When was that?
21 A. I don't know. I'm not sure.
22 Q. When your grandmother contacted one of your parents, that of
23 course caused a discussion about what had happened to you, didn't it?
24 A. Yes, but the discussion mostly centred on whether we were willing
25 or not to give a statement.
1 Q. Of course. That was a discussion that was actually in many senses
2 of a fair amount of importance to both you and your father. Correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And the two of you, in trying to make a determination of how you
5 were going to proceed, discussed what had happened and whether or not you
6 wished to deal with that again.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you remember how you were contacted by the investigator? Was
9 that by phone or by letter?
10 A. By telephone. I was not present at that time because I was at
11 college, but my mother told me that they had called, that somebody from
12 the Tribunal here had called.
13 Q. And then arrangements were made, I take it, for you to meet with
14 this person?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Now, before you met with this individual -- and that individual
17 was Ole Lehtinen. Correct?
18 A. Yes, that is correct.
19 Q. Okay. And no one else?
20 A. Yes, and also an interpreter for us.
21 Q. Do you remember the name of the interpreter?
22 MR. NICHOLLS: I'm going to object on relevance at that point.
23 It's got nothing to do with any issue in dispute and it's not a proper
24 topic for cross, I don't think.
25 MR. GUY-SMITH: I don't have any -- I don't have any need to
1 plough the ground. It's of some interest but not great.
2 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
3 MR. GUY-SMITH:
4 Q. Before you actually met with this investigator, Mr. Lehtinen, did
5 you talk to him - and by that I mean you personally - talk to him on the
6 telephone with regard to what the subject matter of his interest in you
8 A. No, I did not speak to him personally.
9 Q. Did you obtain information from your father regarding what
10 Mr. Lehtinen wanted to discuss with you?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. What did your father tell you Mr. Lehtinen wanted to discuss with
14 A. Well, he told me that they mostly want to talk to us about what
15 had happened in Kosovo and whether it would be -- if it would be okay,
16 that he would like to come and see us.
17 Q. After a discussion with your father, the two of you agreed that it
18 would be okay for him to come to see you. Correct?
19 A. After a lengthy discussion between the two of us, yes.
20 MR. GUY-SMITH: Your Honour, I am about to enter into a relatively
21 long and new area. I know that it's still --
22 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Guy-Smith. I think that would be a
23 very appropriate time to break.
24 Sir, we will be having to finish for today now, but we will resume
25 on Monday. So your evidence will continue then. We will adjourn now to
1 resume on Monday at 2.15. Perhaps before I do, do I understand,
2 Mr. Guy-Smith, that this document is now no longer required?
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: Many years ago I was told that discretion is the
4 better part of valour, so if it does not take up too much room, Your
5 Honour, if for but a brief number of days it could be retained, I would
6 appreciate it. I think it may well not be required, but exercising a bit
7 more caution ...
8 JUDGE PARKER: I can never interfere with caution on the part of
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you so much.
11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.42 p.m.,
12 to be reconvened on Monday, the 6th day of
13 December, 2004, at 2.15 p.m.