1 Wednesday, 26 January 2005
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.21 p.m.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon.
7 If I could remind you, sir, of the affirmation you took at the
8 commencement of your evidence which still applies.
9 Yes, Mr. Whiting.
10 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 WITNESS: WITNESS L-96 [Resumed]
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 Examined by Mr. Whiting: [Continued]
14 MR. WHITING: I could ask that Exhibit P54 be placed before the
15 witness. And actually we have a version of it where the names of the --
16 underneath the photos are blacked out. For the record, that's the one
17 that's going to be placed before the witness.
18 And I would ask that the -- I'm just going to go through these
19 pictures in order, and if the first one could be placed before the
21 Q. Good afternoon, Witness. We are -- I'm going to remind you that
22 we are in open session. Can you understand me?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. I'm going to go through these pictures and ask you each -- with
25 respect to each one if you recognise the person in the photograph. I
1 need to for purposes of the record read out each number that is shown to
2 you. The first one is 0323-1471. Do you recognise this person?
3 A. No.
4 Q. The next one is 0323-1436. Do you recognise this person?
5 A. Yes, I knew this person before the war.
6 Q. Do you know this person's name?
7 A. This person is from Godance village. Ahmeti is his last name.
8 This is Vesel Ahmeti.
9 Q. When is the last time you saw this person, if you remember?
10 A. I don't remember when was the last time I saw him.
11 Q. If we could turn to the next one U003-8691. Do you recognise
12 this person?
13 A. No, I don't know this person.
14 Q. The next one is U008-3669.
15 MR. WHITING: It actually -- in there it has a different number,
16 but it is -- it's the same photograph. And if the Court and Defence
17 counsel wish to look at it.
18 Q. Do you recognise this photo?
19 A. No, I don't know this person.
20 Q. Next one is U003-2164. Do you recognise this person?
21 A. No, I don't know this person.
22 Q. U003-8692.
23 A. The person on the photograph in front of me, I recognise him. I
24 have seen him in Lapusnik when I was taken to the second room. This
25 person is Emin Emini, and he was in the second group when Shala divided
1 us into groups. He was in the same group with me and he remained death
2 -- dead.
3 Q. If we could turn to the next picture, it's U003-8693. Do you
4 recognise this person?
5 A. It seems to me that this person is Hysri from Belince.
6 Q. If we could go to the next one, which is U003-2165.
7 A. No, I don't know this person.
8 Q. The next one is U003-8694.
9 A. No, I don't know this person.
10 Q. Next one is U003-8695.
11 A. No, I don't know this person either.
12 Q. The next one is U003-8696.
13 A. This person whom I've seen in Lapusnik is Shaban Hoti. Then he
14 was not wearing glasses.
15 Q. The next one is U003-8697.
16 A. This person, I've seen him in Lapusnik and he was on the
17 execution site. And his name is Hasan Hoxha.
18 Q. The next one is U003-8698.
19 A. Yes. This is Safet Hyseni. I've seen him in Lapusnik in the
20 second group on the execution site.
21 Q. The next one is U003-2166.
22 A. No, I don't know this person.
23 Q. U003-2167?
24 A. No, I don't know this person either.
25 Q. U003-8699?
1 A. No, not this one.
2 Q. U003-2171?
3 A. I don't know this person either.
4 Q. U003-8700?
5 A. As for this person, I heard about him from (redacted).
6 This is a person who I referred to as the traffic policeman from Suhareke
7 area who used to work in Pristina for some time. This is the person who
8 (redacted) referred to. This is a person who had his legs broken.
9 Q. The next one is U003-2168.
10 A. I don't know this person.
11 Q. U003-8701?
12 A. This person is Musli Musliu from Belince who, in short, is called
13 Mus. I've seen him in the first room. I've seen Shala beat him. And on
14 the last day when we left, I have seen this person when I said that as we
15 were leaving the door was open.
16 Q. The next one is U003-2170.
17 A. As for this person, I can say that I just know he comes from
18 Xhemtafa family; I don't know his name. Xhemtafa family consists of many
19 members. I don't know his exact name, but I just know that he is a
20 member of this family.
21 Q. The next one is U003-8702.
22 A. This person is Bashkim. I don't know his last name. I didn't
23 know at the time whether he lived in Shtime or in the Shtime area. He
24 was in the same room with me. He was in the second group, and he was at
25 the execution site where he was killed. I knew this person before the
1 war as well.
2 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, could we go into private session,
4 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
5 [Private session]
22 [Open session]
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This person is from Xhemtafa
24 family. I don't know his name, but I know that he is a member of the
25 Xhemtafa family from Carraleve.
1 MR. WHITING:
2 Q. Did you see this person at Lapusnik?
3 A. No, I haven't seen this person in Lapusnik.
4 Q. And let me -- if I -- if the usher could go back to U003-2170,
5 please, which is one, two, three, four, five -- oh, it's on page 21. I
6 don't know if that's blocked out also.
7 Witness, you testified that this person is also from the Xhemtafa
8 family, but I didn't ask you: Did you see this person at Lapusnik?
9 A. No, I haven't seen this person in Lapusnik.
10 Q. Okay. Let's go back -- the last one I believe we did was 1447.
11 Let's go to U003-8704.
12 A. This person is Luta, a forest ranger. He worked as a forest
13 ranger at the time, and he comes from Crni Breg village. I knew him from
14 before the war. I saw him at Lapusnik; he was in my room. I saw him --
15 he was in my group and he was executed.
16 Q. The next one is U003-8705.
17 A. I've seen this person in Lapusnik. This is Shyq from Godance.
18 This is the person who had his leg broken. This is a person who we
19 carried from Lapusnik to the execution site, and that's where he was
20 killed. I used to know this person before the war, and (redacted)
22 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, for the next group I'm going to ask to
23 go into private session, please.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
25 [Private session]
11 Pages 2410-2415 redacted. Private session.
8 [Open session]
9 Cross-examined by Mr. Mansfield:
10 Q. Good afternoon, sir, I represent [Realtime transcript read in
11 error: "respect"] Fatmir Limaj, and I want to ask you questions about one
12 particular incident, that is the incident you describe occurring after
13 you had left Lapusnik on the last day and you were on a mountain path
14 when you say Shala mentioned that Commander Celiku was coming and he
15 spoke to Commander Celiku. That's the incident I want to ask you about.
16 Do you understand clearly?
17 A. Yes, so far I understand you clearly.
18 Q. Thank you. Do you agree that you did not mention or describe
19 this incident nor the name Celiku to anyone in authority until the year
20 2001 in the summer after you had seen Fatmir Limaj on television?
21 A. Although the question was quite long, I will answer it. Until
22 2001, I never mentioned the name of Fatmir Limaj. For the first time I
23 mentioned it in my statement when I came back from the western countries
24 in August 2001. The first time I heard Fatmir Limaj's name was in the
25 mill of Xheladin Ademaj, but I was convinced that I will recognise him as
1 Xhela told me, As soon as you see him on TV, you will recognise him. And
2 before that, I couldn't say to anyone that this is a person from the
3 Lapusnik zone or from some other zone. I know very well that during my
4 first statement, I did not know his name.
5 Q. Sir, could I just alter one matter in the transcript. It doesn't
6 matter very much. On my first question although "respect" may be
7 appropriate, the word should be "represent."
8 Now, sir, I -- you haven't answered the question I asked. I will
9 ask it again. Do you agree -- I'll split it up. Do you agree that you
10 did not mention or describe any incident on the mountain involving a
11 commander by whatever name, until the year 2001?
12 A. This is how it was.
13 Q. Yes. I'm sorry. The question was: Do you agree that you did
14 not mention this incident, leave aside names for the moment, you didn't
15 mention the incident or describe it until 2001 in the summer. Do you
17 A. Before August 2001, I know that I have not mentioned it because
18 before August 2001 at one occasion when I gave a statement --
19 Q. You agree, therefore, you did not mention the incident before the
20 summer of 2001. Do you also agree that you did not mention the name
21 "Celiku" to the authorities before the summer of 2001?
22 A. Before the summer of 2001, I did not know the real name of
23 Commander Celiku, but I have mentioned Commander Celiku. But as for his
24 name, I did not know it.
25 Q. No. Please listen to the question. I ask it again. You did not
1 mention the name -- the name "Celiku," you did not mention that name to
2 anyone in authority until the summer of 2001, did you?
3 A. This is how it was.
4 Q. And I'm going to suggest to you that you only mentioned the name
5 Celiku and this incident on the mountain after you saw Fatmir Limaj on
6 television. Do you follow?
7 A. Yes, this is how it was.
8 Q. And I want to ask you clearly if you saw Commander -- a man
9 called Commander Celiku on the mountain on your last day before those
10 terrible events you have described, how was it that you did not mention a
11 Commander Celiku to anyone in authority before the summer of 2001?
12 A. I will now explain this issue, and you will understand why I did
13 not mention him. First of all, when the killing occurred I was in a very
14 terrible state. Something that I never imagined happened. Secondly, we
15 Albanians from Kosovo, we have the blood feud. As I have seen with my
16 own eyes the killing of (redacted) my friends, at that moment I forgot
17 not only Commander Celiku but I also forgot Qerqiz; I was just oriented
18 at Shala and Murrizi and the person who directly participated in the
19 killing. I did not even think at that time that things will go step by
20 step. As I left Lapusnik, how the journey proceeded, what happened, this
21 is all that I said later. I said that Murrizi and Shala left with us
22 from Lapusnik, and then I mentioned that on the middle of the journey
23 someone assigned a soldier to us and that this was Commander Celiku. And
24 this is how it was brought up. And before that, I wasn't thinking of
25 this. It was the first time that I saw a killing with my eyes. So I was
1 orientated at Shala, not at the other two; so this is the reason. With
2 investigators we worked the whole event step by step, from my house, to
3 Lapusnik, to the prison, to the journey to the execution site, the
4 killing itself. So this is it.
5 Q. You say you focused on Shala. You say this person who mentioned
6 Commander Celiku was Shala, don't you?
7 A. Yes, it was Shala that said, Commander Celiku is coming.
8 Q. If you're focusing on Shala --
9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
10 MR. MANSFIELD:
11 Q. If you're focusing on Shala after these events, how could you
12 forget that perhaps the most important officer in the region or zone,
13 according to you, had been present three hours before the execution?
14 A. I will explain it like this, and this is how it was. This was a
15 person, as you call him, the high-ranking officer, but it is a fact that
16 he personally did not torture him -- me, (redacted) at the cherry tree.
17 He did not say that this commander tortured him or maltreated him. (redacted)
18 (redacted) just told me about things that befell on him and that were caused
19 by Shala and by Qerqizi. So I was focused on Shala and Qerqizi. (redacted)
20 (redacted) even said that Murrizi did not cause him any trouble during the
21 time in prison. So this is mainly the reason why. At that time, I was
22 just looking for Shala to find out his identity, to find out the identity
23 of the person who's killing persons without any reason. Even -- if it
24 wasn't for this trial today -- if it wasn't for this trial today, I would
25 never ask who Fatmir Limaj was, but the investigation asked, Who was that
1 person? What happened? How it happened. So this is it.
2 Q. I will come to the investigation by the CCIU, but first you spoke
3 to Serbian police authorities in some detail, didn't you?
4 A. Yes, that's how it was.
5 Q. And I want to examine that opportunity you had to mention Celiku
6 if you had seen him, and I want to make it clear on Fatmir Limaj's behalf
7 that there was no such incident on the mountain where he arrived on a
8 tractor or walking. Do you follow?
9 A. Yes, I follow very well.
10 Q. I'm going to take this part carefully. After the shocking
11 executions, you were clearly extremely frightened and extremely worried,
12 weren't you?
13 A. Yes, I was.
14 Q. And your main worry was that perhaps somebody from the KLA might
15 pursue you.
16 A. Yes, that's what I thought.
17 MR. MANSFIELD: Could we have on screen, please, map 6 of P1.
18 May I ask if it's on screen --
19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
20 MR. MANSFIELD: Sorry.
21 Could the map be on screen so we can all see it as well, please?
22 No. Well, can I proceed on the basis everyone has the map, even if it's
23 not on the screen.
24 Q. Could you kindly look at this map -- have you seen this
25 particular map before?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. Yes, I've seen it.
2 Q. If you look at it, you will see that Lapusnik is marked inside a
3 red square, and if you come below the square you will see a red triangle
4 which marks roughly Berisa. Do you see those two places, Lapusnik and
5 Berisa, on this map?
6 A. Yes, I can see Lapusnik and Berisa in the map.
7 Q. Now, some other places on this map. If you go to the bottom,
8 right-hand corner, you will see Ferizaj marked with a red dot and a pink
9 area around it. Do you see that?
10 A. Yes, I can see that.
11 Q. Now, the first thing I want to ask you is whether you're telling
12 the truth about the fact that you -- having left the area of the
13 executions, that you went on foot all the way from the Berisa mountains
14 to Ferizaj. Is that right?
15 A. Yes, that is right. From this place I went to Ferizaj to a
17 Q. Did you go by road?
18 A. No, no. I did not go by road.
19 Q. Because to go over the mountains, it's a very considerable
20 distance, isn't it?
21 A. I did not go on the mountains. I went from Berisa to Baijice, to
22 Nekovce. (redacted) lives in Nekovce, but I did not dare go to her.
23 In Sedlare, (redacted) I was afraid that Shala could find me
24 because (redacted). So I did not know
25 where to go. That's why I went to a (redacted).
1 (redacted), and I arrived there the next day at 6.00 p.m., around that
2 time. She still lives there in the same house.
3 Q. On this map, just indicate, would you, the route that you took.
4 A. Yes. From Berisa, I went to Nekovce. I went this way. This the
5 Lipovica wire which goes to Krajiste. I did not stay in Lipovica because
6 it was under KLA control. I went to Zborce and I did not stay there
7 because I was afraid that it was under their control. I went here to
8 Godance. Godance as well was under KLA controls, so I was avoiding the
9 area. I went to the main road here from Shtime to Lipjan, crossed it. I
10 went here to Muzeqine, which is an area I know very well, Koshare e Teli
11 [as interpreted] and here, before getting to (redacted), I knew
12 that I could stay for a week or so in this area and then leave. It was
13 around 5.00 or 6.00 p.m. when I arrived there. (redacted)
14 (redacted). That's where I had a fresh set of clothes. I shaved. (redacted)
15 (redacted) started giving me a massage because I was in a very bad shape.
16 She knew what had happened to (redacted), but she did not know about the
17 killing. The SUP is only 700 metres away from her house.
18 Q. Now, the question I have is this: That distance across the
19 mountains is going to be, looking at the scale on this map, somewhere
20 between 40 and 50 kilometres; by road, it's 39 direct, roughly. Do you
22 A. Yes, yes, approximately. Possibly 35 or 40 kilometres, yes.
23 Q. No. Across the mountains it's over 40, isn't it?
24 A. It could be.
25 Q. Did you avoid all checkpoints?
1 A. There were no checkpoints in these -- in this area of Drenica.
2 On the at the crossroad in Gjurkoc. I passed through this area because I
3 know this area very well, and I ended up in Ferizaj.
4 Q. And are you saying you risked being caught by the KLA by going
5 through territory occupied by them?
6 A. I did not go close to the houses or the villages, but still the
7 danger was great. Yes, of course.
8 Q. I suggest you did no such thing. Instead, looking at the map,
9 what I suggest you did was that you could see the Serb checkpoint from
10 the mountains near Berisa. You could see the checkpoint Komorane, which
11 is to the north and to the right of Lapusnik on this map. Do you see
13 A. Yes, I see Komorane.
14 Q. You could see that checkpoint from the mountains where you had
15 been, couldn't you?
16 A. After the execution, I couldn't see anything. After it became
17 dark, I began to move. I did not dare to move before that. But I did
18 not know where exactly the Komorane checkpoint was, and I did not see any
19 lights there. And I didn't even know that there was a checkpoint there.
20 I learned about that checkpoint when I was taken there, when I went to
21 Pristina and was taken to Komorane. But when it was becoming dark --
22 before becoming dark, I did not dare to move. But as I said, I know this
23 area very well and I walked all the area on foot all the time. The Serbs
24 took me from Pristina to Komorane.
25 Q. You knew at this time that Komorane was a Serb checkpoint, didn't
2 A. At that time, I did not know what kind of forces were in Komorane
3 or what was there in Komorane.
4 Q. You knew it was a --
5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Mr. Mansfield.
6 MR. MANSFIELD: Sorry.
7 Q. You knew it was a Serb checkpoint. It was the biggest in Kosovo
8 at that time, wasn't it?
9 A. No. I did not know until the moment I was taken there, I did not
10 know that there was a checkpoint there or whether there were any forces
12 Q. What I suggest you did when it was light, not during the night,
13 you went down to the checkpoint and handed yourself over to Serb police,
14 didn't you?
15 A. No, that did not happen.
16 Q. And just following the map, you then went with Serb police to
17 Pristina, didn't you?
18 A. No. I went from Ferizaj to Pristina with the Serbian police.
19 It's the opposite way, not the way you describe it.
20 Q. And just to finish this part of what I suggest is having got to
21 Pristina you made a statement in Pristina and then were taken down to SUP
22 in Ferizaj?
23 A. No.
24 Q. I want you to look at a statement, or rather a report made by the
25 Serb authorities about a visit that you made in Ferizaj and also in
2 MR. MANSFIELD: Your Honour, the -- there is a bundle available
3 to everybody, and it is in fact within that bundle, the second statement.
4 And we have it in English and in Albanian.
5 Q. A particular page -- I can give the number for the English
6 version as well I want you to look at -- the ERN number is 0306-6563.
7 And for the Albanian it will be 0308-3263. Now, sir, if you as a witness
8 would look at the Albanian version which you can read, 0308-3263, I'll
9 put the question in English, which will be translated so that you can
10 find it in the Albanian version.
11 MR. MANSFIELD: Your Honour, on our page it's 0306-6563. It's
12 halfway down this page beginning with the English words "further in his
14 Q. Your name is there, then -- I don't read it out obviously --
15 "Stated that running through the forest from the direction of Lapusnik,
16 he came to the Pristina-Pec main road and he gave himself up to a
17 policeman at a checkpoint in Komorane and recounted the incident to them,
18 after which he was taken over by officials of the DB State Security
19 Service in Pristina, who conducted a detailed interview with him.
20 "After conducting the interview with," you, and your name is
21 mentioned again, "in the premises of the Urosevac SUP, on orders from the
22 chief of the Urosevac SUP OSL, authorised officials of the Urosevac SUP
23 OKP crime investigation department, together with," you, and so on, "went
24 to the village of Lapusnik."
25 I've just summarised. That was said at the beginning of August
1 by you to those Serb authorities, wasn't it?
2 A. I remember this statement, but I don't know that I've given this
3 in Pristina. I know that from Ferizaj we went to Pristina. In Pristina
4 we waited for an hour, an hour and a half and another car joined us. I
5 can see the names here and these are correct, all of them, and these
6 names I've given in Ferizaj. Pristina was also aware about the case,
7 what had happened, because we went from Ferizaj to Pristina. I was
8 waiting in the car. We waited for some time. The inspector went inside;
9 I don't know what they were talking about in there. So we left for
10 Komorane, and from there to Lapusnik. And all the names here, Bashkim,
11 Xheladin Ademaj, all the names are correct.
12 Q. I suggest you are avoiding the point. The point you are making
13 to the Serbian authorities is that you went to a Serb police checkpoint,
14 which you've said this afternoon you didn't know existed, in Komorane and
15 recounted the incident to them, and then after that Pristina.
16 How did the Serb authorities -- this is the question: How did
17 the Serb authorities manage to get that version down if it did not
19 A. The Serbian authorities have taken the statement from me; it is
20 true. I can see all the names here, and the names were mentioned by me.
21 Q. So you did hand yourself in, didn't you, to the Serb authorities,
22 and before today, you have been anxious not to admit that. Is that
24 A. No, it was not like that. I was taken in Ferizaj. My first
25 interview was in Ferizaj.
1 Q. So why does this report not indicate anything about being stopped
2 at a checkpoint in Ferizaj because you had no documents and so forth?
3 There's no mention of it in this statement or report, to be more precise.
4 A. I've given two statements to the Serbs. The first statement when
5 I was stopped by the police, I was together with a relative, and the
6 second one when I went to -- when I was at the police station. And it is
7 true that I was stopped at Ferizaj. So that is true that I was stopped
8 by the Ferizaj police and taken to the SUP, and it was the same inspector
9 for the second time -- for the first time and the second time.
10 Q. I'll come to the inspector in a minute. The fact is this report,
11 covering the time from when you left the execution site makes no mention
12 of you being stopped in Ferizaj because you had no documents. Do you
14 A. Yes, I understand.
15 Q. Can you explain therefore why they don't have any record of you
16 being stopped in Ferizaj as opposed to giving yourself up to the Serb
17 police at Komorane and being taken to Pristina and then down to Ferizaj?
18 How is the account so different?
19 A. Well, Serb statements always had differences. It was a wartime
20 at the time. I don't know what they wrote in there, but I know that
21 these names given here were given by me. And it is true that I went from
22 Ferizaj to Pristina in a car. We were four people. I waited there for
23 an hour and a half when they went inside there. I don't know when they
24 wrote this. I can't tell you when they wrote this.
25 Q. They wrote the report, if you look at 030 -- and in your case it
1 will be 0308-3261. In the English version it's 0306-6561. You will see
2 that at the top of the report it mentions that it's dated the 5th of
3 August, 1998. And in the first paragraph it suggests that you came of
4 your own accord and reported the following. Do you see that?
5 A. Yes, I see it.
6 Q. You did go of your own accord to the Serb authorities, didn't
8 A. No.
9 Q. So that's wrong as well, is it?
10 A. What the Serbian authorities did here, I don't know -- well, I
11 couldn't go. There was no way I could go to the Serbian forces at
12 midnight, and I didn't even know that there were Serbian forces there.
13 Because I have told them the truth when they asked me the first time, Are
14 there any KLA in Petrove? I said, No. They asked me, Who are the people
15 in uniform? And I said, I don't know. The second time when they asked
16 me in Ferizaj I told them where I had been, but they did not believe me.
17 And that's why they took me to find the place, to verify the story from
18 Ferizaj to Pristina. I waited for two hours in the car. They went
19 inside, discussed things, I don't know. And then we went to Komorane,
20 and then I saw that there was so many forces in Komorane there.
21 Q. Yes. Could you just concentrate on the questions, and it may be
22 a little bit quicker, please. Thank you.
23 I'm going to suggest to you that the reason the report suggests
24 you gave yourself up at a checkpoint near Komorane is of course you knew
25 Serb -- or (redacted) knew Serb police officers quite well, didn't you?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. Serbian policemen in Komorane?
2 Q. No. You tell us where the Serbian police officers were that you
3 knew quite well.
4 A. Serbian officer with the exception of the commander in (redacted),
5 that everybody knew him. I did not know any other Serbian officers.
6 Maybe an odd policeman here and there that everybody knew in (redacted). I'm
7 not sure what you're talking about, sir. (redacted) was not involved in
8 the army or the SUP; he was just a civilian. 70 per cent of my time was
9 spent outside the country and 30 per cent in my country. And there I
10 went on hunting parties. I don't know where you got this, and we did not
11 know any Serbian officers. We were never part of the authorities or any
13 Q. Do you know what the -- some Serbian police officers have said
14 about (redacted) and their knowledge of it?
15 A. What the Serbian officers say, it's their problem.
16 Q. I suggest it's your problem. I'm going to put to you what one of
17 them says. I'll give you his name Momcilo Sparavalo. Do you know him?
18 A. I have seen this person, but I have never spoken to him.
19 Q. He was present during the two occasions that you saw the Serb
20 authorities in the summer of 1998, wasn't he?
21 A. He was present, but he did not speak to me. He only listened to
22 Jasovic when he was interrogating me.
23 Q. And he says that he -- to the authorities investigating this
24 case, that he knew (redacted) personally. They were friendly people who
25 didn't oppose the Serb authorities. I often stopped by (redacted) for a
1 drink, and I went hunting with them.
2 I've left the names out.
3 A. No, this is wrong, that -- this person Momcilo Sparavalo has
4 never been to (redacted). He did not come with us on hunting parties.
5 He never had a gun to go on hunting parties. There was another person,
6 (redacted), that person, who was a manager of a hotel, he was
7 interested in hunting. This person never was interested in hunting, and
8 I never spoke to him or had a conversation with him before the day I was
9 there in Jasovic's office. And there I did not speak to him either. He
10 just came in, went out, came in, went out, all the time.
11 Q. Can you think of a reason why this police officer should
12 therefore lie about his relationship with (redacted)?
13 A. I'm saying the truth now. It's the same surname, but the name is
14 different. It's (redacted) and he knew (redacted), and he went to
15 hunting parties with (redacted) and he has been to (redacted). But not the
16 person you are saying here. And I'm saying this and it's the truth.
17 Q. Dragan Jasovic, the other officer, also says that he was invited
18 in for a drink at your (redacted). Do you deny that?
19 A. I cannot say I deny it or I admit it. It could have happened,
20 but I have not (redacted). I have been abroad most of the time. But
21 when I personally was (redacted), he has never been to (redacted) while I was
22 there. I know that once (redacted) had a pistol that he did not have a
23 legal permit to keep, and Dragan Jasovic had come to the -- to (redacted)
24 to take that pistol away. And in fact, (redacted)
25 (redacted). And you can verify that, that
1 sentence. And you can verify as well whether Dragan Jasovic was there to
2 drink something or to take the pistol away.
3 Q. I'm just putting to you what he describes of being invited in for
4 a drink, not to recover a gun. Do you follow?
5 A. No, that's not correct.
6 Q. So again, why would he be lying about his relationship with (redacted)
8 A. Well, if you mentioned somebody else who went on hunting with
9 (redacted), I can say that they -- these persons went hunting with (redacted),
10 but not Dragan Jasovic.
11 I'm not denying here that (redacted) had two hunting guns, that he
12 used to drink a little bit, and he had friends, Serbian friends before
13 the war, during the Milosevic times, and he also kept those friends
14 later. I cannot deny those things. But those things you're putting to
15 me, no, those were not like that.
16 Q. I want to return to this statement date -- report dated the 5th
17 of August. If you turn in your copy to the first page which would be
18 0083-261 [sic] and in the English version it's 0306-6561, that is where
19 you begin, I suggest -- it's reported, a detailed account with names of
20 what had happened to you in Lapusnik and on the mountain. Have you got
21 the beginning of the statement -- the report dated the 5th of August?
22 A. Yes, yes.
23 Q. Do you agree that it is a detailed, careful description of what
24 you were telling them had happened to you, both in Lapusnik and on the
25 mountain, wasn't it?
1 A. Yes, that was exactly like that.
2 Q. And I suggest by this time, that is sometime in -- at the
3 beginning of August, you had had time to recover a little, to think a
4 little, and I suggest in this period you have been with Serbian
5 authorities who eventually provide you with new identification. Now, is
6 that right?
7 A. Yes, that's right.
8 MR. MANSFIELD: I don't know -- I see the time. Would that be a
9 convenient moment?
10 JUDGE PARKER: It would indeed. We will have a --
11 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
12 JUDGE PARKER: We will have a break now. I've just been told for
13 technical reasons it needs to be half an hour for something to do with
14 the transcript and the redactions. So we will resume at a quarter past
16 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.
17 --- On resuming at 4.18 p.m.
18 MR. MANSFIELD: Your Honour, I wonder if we could go into private
19 session just for a moment while I just explain something.
20 JUDGE PARKER: Indeed, Mr. Mansfield.
21 Private session.
22 [Private session]
20 [Open session]
21 MR. MANSFIELD:
22 Q. So we're still dealing with the initial report by the Serb
23 authorities on the 5th of August, and I want to just deal with the
24 section of the report that deals with the -- your account of the last day
25 at Lapusnik and going to the mountains. Do you understand?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. The passage in the report that deals with this period in the
3 English version can be found at 0306-6562. In the Albanian version,
4 which you have, sir, it is 0308-3263 and the page just before that, 62,
5 as well. With that in mind can you find in your version of this
6 statement, the Albanian version, it comes at the bottom of 0308-3262 the
7 passage that begins: "According to his account, at around 12." Have you
8 found that part of your statement?
9 A. Not yet.
10 Q. It is about 12 lines up from the bottom of the second page of
11 your -- of the Albanian version. Do you have the second page of the
12 Albanian version of this statement, this report? It should be page 2 at
13 the bottom.
14 A. I found it.
15 Q. Thank you. Now, just for sake of brevity, if you would follow
16 quickly with me. What is reported there starting at 12.00 on the 25th of
17 July, 1998, you have reported to the Serb authorities that the prisoners
18 were all taken out and made to line up in the prison yard. And then
19 according to this account, one group was lined up in the yard and taken
20 away, and you don't know what happened to them. That's group number 1 or
21 the first group. Do you see how you've described it there?
22 A. Yes, I see how it is described in the statement, but this is not
23 true. It's not true that the first group left from the yard. Maybe it's
24 a difficulty -- a language difficulty here with the Serb language. I do
25 understand Serb, although I don't speak it very well. We did line up in
1 the yard, that is true. But it's not true that the group left from the
2 yard, that it was divided there. This group was divided at the cherry
3 tree. This must be a language problem.
4 Q. Well, I want to pass to a more important stage, if I may. If you
5 carry on, you deal with in the Albanian version the second group. And
6 you will see there, as you read on, and it's on our fourth page, 563, the
7 numbers ending, you will see that you are told according to this record
8 that you're going to be taken to the mountains and that you set off on
9 foot towards a place called Velika Stena, "Big Rock." And you notice
10 that certain people don't have belts on their trousers and a cap and so
11 on. And you mention names. I'm not going to mention any of the names.
12 You give a description of going up the mountain and what you can see in
13 the distance, including Kishna Reka and Komorane. Do you see all this
14 description in the report?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Now, what I suggest is: Given the careful nature of this
17 statement in stages, if you had only days before seen Celiku, whose name
18 you knew from before your abduction, if you'd seen him on the
19 mountainside where he was being asked what should happen to you, that is
20 one thing you would have told the Serbs at that point, isn't it?
21 A. Yes. If I was calm and if (redacted) hadn't been killed and if I
22 hadn't seen all those things there, only then I could have been in --
23 concentrated well and mention everything. I know very well that after
24 the killing there was nothing in my head except for the person sitting
25 here in the middle and his friend. It was much later, as I described it
1 earlier, during the interview with the investigators. It's only then
2 that I mentioned. Before that, I didn't even think of the person you're
3 mentioning. I'm convinced that if the killing did not take place, I
4 would have been calm. But since it happened, only these two persons were
5 in my mind.
6 Q. I want to -- since you've raised it, the question of the
7 interview -- the investigators, you didn't mention it to the
8 investigators when they first asked you either, did you?
9 A. During the first time, I know I've mentioned him. You should
10 look at the statement.
11 Q. I am going to -- sorry, I'm having a little difficulty with this
12 microphone. That's it. I am going to look at the first statement of the
13 investigators that we have. It's in this same bundle.
14 MR. MANSFIELD: If, Your Honour, you would turn to the very first
15 page of the bundle, it's 0323-0787.
16 Q. You, Witness, have an Albanian version of this, 0323-0790. I'll
17 wait while that's located. I'll just repeat the numbers.
18 MR. MANSFIELD: The Albanian version, it should be in the bundle
19 in front of the witness starts at 0323-0790, and the English version
20 starts at 0323-0787.
21 Q. Sir, do you have the Albanian version of your statement?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now, this -- you referred to this statement yesterday and you
24 indicated that it was taken in Albanian and English. And it is dated, as
25 you will see, the 20th of August, in the year 2000; in other words, two
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 years later. Now, this is a statement, again in which I suggest that you
2 do not mention the name Celiku, nor do you mention any incident on the
3 mountain when a commander called Celiku was approached by Shala. Do you
5 A. Yes, I'm following you very well.
6 Q. Can you explain, therefore, why two years later when the killing
7 had happened clearly two years before, when you would have been a little
8 calmer and you had decided to report this matter to the CCIU, why you
9 never mentioned the incident on the mountain or the name of Celiku?
10 A. Here there was no other reason, except for the fact that I
11 remember mentioning his name only once before the kidnapping. Secondly,
12 when I saw him for the second time, I did not know him, as I described it
13 in my statement. And are you sure whether it was only Shala and Murrizi
14 during the killing? And about the third soldier, he joined us on halfway
15 to the cherry tree. The third soldier was assigned by the commander, but
16 as for me not on that day, not even today, it wasn't very important to
17 mention Commander Celiku. For me, it was important to mention those
18 killers that I saw with my own eyes; that was important for me. I said
19 that I did recognise a person whom I've seen in the prison. As for the
20 Commander Celiku, I never seen him before. He didn't know my family; I
21 didn't know his family. And in order for me when I was supposed to give
22 this statement to CCIU or to UNMIK, I was asking this person now that you
23 are talking about, he did not mention this commander, that he was beaten
24 by him. But during the statement in 2001, when I was told that the -- we
25 will investigate this case step by step, then I mentioned that we met
1 someone halfway and that he assigned Shala another soldier. And this is
2 the only time -- I have no other reason to mention things about Commander
3 Celiku. If I may add here, he could maybe save (redacted) and the other
4 persons, but I've just mentioned him in that context, as a person who
5 assigned the soldier to Shala. And that's how I mentioned it; there is
6 nothing more to it.
7 Q. The question was why you did not mention the name of Celiku when
8 you first reported these matters to the CCIU. The reason I ask is
9 minutes ago you were saying you had mentioned it to the investigators.
10 Now, which is true: You did mention it or you didn't mention it?
11 A. During the first statement, it is true that I did not mention it.
12 It is true, but the truth is also that I know -- I know the reason why I
13 didn't mention him. I was not interested in him. I didn't see any wrong
14 deed from him, except for the fact that he gave this soldier to Shala. I
15 just know that he assigned a soldier. So the soldier, the third soldier,
16 actually was the reason why I mentioned him, who was the person who
17 assigned that soldier, and that's why I mentioned him. This is what
18 happened in the course of the interview with the investigators. And for
19 me, it was a very natural thing. And this gentleman here who knew me and
20 my family and the gentleman in the middle who also knew me and my
21 family --
22 Q. It's a very long time. Your answers are extremely long; the
23 questions are very short. Please try and restrict your answers to the
24 reasons why you didn't mention Celiku. Now, can I just continue.
25 When you came to see the investigators in the following year, did
1 you tell them that you'd heard the name Celiku on the mountainside,
2 spoken by Shala?
3 A. Yes, I told them that.
4 Q. Or did you say to them that what you heard Shala say was, The
5 commander is coming; that's ask him what to do with you. No name of
6 Celiku? That's what's recorded.
7 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, if there's going to be questions about
8 this following -- this subsequent interview, I would ask that it also be
9 put in front of the witness and he be given an opportunity to look at it.
10 MR. MANSFIELD: Certainly.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
12 MR. MANSFIELD: Can I just continue with this one for the moment.
13 Q. You see, there is no reason, is there, why you couldn't have
14 mentioned Celiku if it had been mentioned on the mountainside when you
15 first went to the investigators in 2000, is there?
16 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I think this question has been asked
17 lots of times in lots of different ways and it has been answered in very
18 lengthy detailed ways. I think it's been asked and answered.
19 MR. MANSFIELD: Your Honour, the problem is the answers are very
20 lengthy and they're not addressed to the question.
21 JUDGE PARKER: I think, though, the subject has been well and
22 truly ventilated with the witness. And if there is in truth no answer to
23 the question in anything that's been said, that's what you would need, is
24 it not?
25 MR. MANSFIELD:
1 Q. I have a further question on this statement you have in front of
2 you, and that is: Would you look at the beginning of the statement where
3 you are first recorded speaking about these events. It's our page
4 0323-0787. So if you look kindly at the beginning of your Albanian
5 version at the very first paragraph, please. And so that it's clear,
6 it's the paragraph that reads: "Two years ago some people took away,"
7 and then there's a reference to somebody, and then later took you away.
8 And then there's this sentence: "I didn't recognise any one of the
9 people that took me away because they were masked."
10 Do you see that sentence?
11 A. Is it about the person who is a close relative of mine? Could
12 you put it clearly, please.
13 Q. The first paragraph of the first statement that you ever make to
14 CCIU investigators is describing the abduction of yourself in 1998 and
15 who was responsible. And what you told the investigators is recorded
16 clearly as: "I didn't recognise any one of the people that took me away
17 because they were masked."
18 Do you see that sentence?
19 A. But this part doesn't speak of me.
20 Q. Now, would you -- I'm sorry to ask it again, but I suggest you're
21 not listening carefully enough or trying to consider what is written,
22 unless the Albanian has been mistranslated. In English there is a
23 sentence that reads: "I didn't recognise any one of the people that took
24 me," that is you, Witness, "away because they were masked."
25 Now, do you see that sentence?
1 A. I am looking at this part, but this doesn't concern me. It
2 doesn't speak of me here. Hold on. Now I found it.
3 Q. I'll just make sure -- again, I'm sorry to take time, but I want
4 to be careful about which page it should be. The first page -- paragraph
5 on our reference, 0323-0790, which is in Albanian. And it should be a
6 sentence which begins [Albanian spoken] and so on, and ends with
7 "maskuar," which I take it is "masked."
8 Now, you have that sentence, do you?
9 A. No. Yes. Here --
10 Q. Wait. I'm just asking you whether you see the sentence. Now,
11 does the -- what does the sentence say in Albanian and then we'll have it
12 translated now to make sure it says the same. Could you just read it,
13 please, and have it translated.
14 A. But now if we are speaking about these two lines two years ago
15 some people, then this part doesn't speak of me, it doesn't concern me.
16 Now the second line, please, if we could go into private session and I
17 will explain this in detail so that this matter is clear to everyone.
18 MR. MANSFIELD: Well, Your Honour, I don't think there's any need
19 to go into private session. Either this is this sentence: "I didn't
20 recognise of the people who took me away because they were masked," or it
21 isn't there.
22 JUDGE PARKER: I anticipate what the witness has in mind is
23 telling you why.
24 MR. MANSFIELD: Yes.
25 JUDGE PARKER: And I think there may be some cultural differences
1 here between what you might be used to as question and answer and the way
2 the witness would think it appropriate to respond. If you want to pursue
3 the question, I think we might go into private session and see what the
4 answer and response is.
5 MR. MANSFIELD: Well, Your Honour, I think I understand the
6 difficulties, but the question so far has been simple: Do you see that
7 sentence? And I thought he said --
8 JUDGE PARKER: Try again, Mr. Mansfield.
9 MR. MANSFIELD: I haven't got to the question why because I want
10 to make sure I've identified the right sentence.
11 Q. So, Witness, again I want to ask you whether there is a sentence
12 in Albanian that reads: "I," that's you the witness, "didn't recognise
13 any one of the people that took me away because they were masked."
14 Now, is there a sentence in Albanian like that in this statement?
15 A. Yes. If you could just allow me to answer now.
16 Q. I'm afraid --
17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
18 MR. MANSFIELD: Sorry, I see. I'm doing it myself, but
19 apparently they're also doing it.
20 Q. You -- the question was simply yes or no whether the sentence is
21 there. Now, is that a sentence which you provided to the investigator?
22 Yes or no?
23 A. No. The sentence is there, but this sentence relates to the
24 first person that was kidnapped. And the person who is mentioned here,
25 although you did not allow me to explain this in private session, I will
1 explain it now. Two weeks before my kidnapping, (redacted)
2 by some masked persons and two weeks later, I was kidnapped.
3 MR. WHITING: I was just going to suggest that we move into
4 private session because --
5 MR. MANSFIELD: Yes, very well.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Private session.
7 [Private session]
11 Pages 2447-2450 redacted. Private session.
13 [Open session]
14 MR. MANSFIELD:
15 Q. I want to ask you about 2001 when you took the CCIU to Lapusnik.
16 Do you remember that occasion?
17 A. No. In 2001, yes -- not in Lapusnik, but in 2001 I took them
18 straight to the execution site, to my recollection.
19 Q. The question I have is: Did you tell any of the investigators at
20 that stage that you had in fact already been to Lapusnik with the Serb
22 A. No.
23 Q. Do you recall when it was that you first revealed that you'd
24 already been to Lapusnik with the Serb authorities in August of 1998?
25 A. I do remember, although I don't know the exact time.
1 Q. Why had you not revealed before the time you first revealed --
2 why did you not tell them that you had in fact already been to Lapusnik
3 with the Serbs?
4 A. I did not say that because at that time during the war and before
5 the war we know very well what the Serb authorities committed, what the
6 Serb regime committed. So it wasn't a valid thing for me to mention
7 because at that time the Serb authorities were no longer in Kosovo. So
8 for me, it was important to mention what had happened and to bring before
9 justice those who committed that crime. So this was the reason why.
10 When I was shown the statement, they said, We have taken this
11 statement from Jasovic, although I mentioned to them that I had been
12 interrogated in Ferizaj the first time before the kidnapping and the
13 second time when I was stopped because I didn't have documents with me.
14 I did mention these two encounters to them, these two statements given in
15 Ferizaj. So they asked me, Is this your statement? I said, Yes, that's
16 it. Did you read it? I said, No, I didn't. Did you sign it? I said,
17 Yes, I did sign it. You think there are mistakes? I said, Well maybe,
18 because I did not read it. They told me they had translated it into
19 Albanian. I read it. There were huge mistakes, some additions to what I
20 have actually said, something that I hadn't said. This is it.
21 Q. Again, could you kindly try and limit the answers to the question
22 asked, the question being why you hadn't revealed it, the fact that you'd
23 already been there, that is to Lapusnik. What was not valid about your
24 visit to Lapusnik with the Serbs?
25 A. I said this because everything in connection with the Serbs at
1 that time was not well received from the population in Kosovo. The war
2 was about to start, people were trying to avoid the Serbs. Many of my
3 family, and let alone those I didn't know, might say something, so that's
4 why they didn't know actually how I went there with them and why they
5 took me there. So that's why I did not mention it.
6 Q. We're now dealing with a period long after the war is over.
7 We're talking about 2001 and 2002. What was not valid about telling the
8 investigators you'd already been around Lapusnik?
9 A. Not then, but even today it's not a valid thing for me to mention
10 because of my family and my friends, to tell them that I was taken there
11 by the Serbs in Lapusnik. Not even today -- it's not valid for me, not
12 even today.
13 Q. Or is the position once again that you are anxious not to let it
14 be thought that you cooperated with the Serb authorities and had -- (redacted)
15 (redacted) had a friendly relationship with the Serb authorities in the first
16 place. Is that the true reason?
17 A. No. Let me answer this, please. I don't know what you call
18 friendly relationship with the Serb authorities and a collaborator. I
19 will answer it this way. (redacted) never worked in the state. He was a
20 manual worker (redacted). When they all were dismissed from work,
21 (redacted) was amongst the dismissed; he did not receive a regular
22 pension. We did not work with the police. We had no financial means.
23 We provided for ourselves by working in the land, by working abroad. And
24 simply, (redacted) had Serb friends with whom he went on hunting; it was
25 his hobby. Hunting was his hobby. He couldn't provide for himself. We
1 had to work and provide for (redacted). And if you mention the
2 friendly relationship with the Serb authorities in this context, then
3 yes, you can say that we had friendly relationships with the Serb
4 authorities. But except for the hunting, there was no other cooperation
5 with the Serbs. Because I'm not scared here. All my friends, all my
6 family, they know that (redacted) was a hunter during Tito's time, during
7 the autonomy of Kosovo, during Milosevic's time. Now he is dead, but it
8 still remains a (redacted) and even (redacted).
9 Q. A last question on this topic: Does the group of people who used
10 to go hunting, did that include police officers, Serb police officers?
11 A. No. Serb policemen with uniforms, there were no such in the
12 group. It was the (redacted), which I was like part of. After
13 work, we would just go out hunting. In the meantime, because this
14 activity took place for 30 years, but in the meantime some of these
15 people from the group might have worked in the police. But it wasn't our
16 business to tell them work in the police or did -- not work in the
17 police, it was just a hobby. We had no interest from them. Hunting just
18 was not a progress for us, economically speaking. It was just a hobby.
19 It was possible for us to work -- to be employed by the state, by the
20 government, but it wasn't the time to do so. We were told that we had to
21 boycott the Serb regime, the government that we had, to abide to the
22 rules. We were the only nation in the world actually to pay two pair of
23 taxes, to the Serbs --
24 Q. Could I just intervene and ask you once again to limit your
25 answers to the question. The next question is this: In 1998 you
1 indicated yesterday that you read Albanian newspapers, particularly in
2 the May, June, July period. Do you remember saying that?
3 A. Yes, I remember very well. I remember reading the newspapers.
4 Q. And you also said yesterday that the war and the involvement of
5 various groups in the war was discussed everywhere in the village, the
6 centre of the village, in the shops. There was nothing else to be
7 discussed, only the war and the territories liberated by the KLA and so
8 on. That's what you said yesterday. Do you follow?
9 A. Yes, I'm following you very well.
10 Q. Now, during that period in the publicity that you read and no
11 doubt the television broadcasts as well, did you read the name "Celiku"?
12 A. No, not in those newspapers, no.
13 Q. You had been told by someone that -- someone in your village who
14 you named yesterday that the person who might be in a position to help
15 you with (redacted) was Commander Celiku. You were told that before the
16 abduction of yourself?
17 A. Yes. Before I was kidnapped, at that time I was looking for
18 (redacted), although now we are in open session and I don't want to mention
20 Q. Now, so far as -- I'm trying to avoid using names obviously, so
21 far as that period is concerned, having obtained the information that
22 Commander Celiku could be important for you, did you see his name
23 anywhere in any form of press release, press statement, television
24 statement anywhere in the media?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Did you see his photograph during that period?
2 A. I never saw any photographs, either of Celiku or any other --
3 anyone else. I saw only press releases, statements, those I read.
4 Q. Now, so far as the broadcast that you think was December 2000 or
5 January 2001, were you in Kosovo at that time?
6 A. Yes, I was in Kosovo.
7 Q. Between 1998, the time when you left Kosovo, and December 2000,
8 how many times had you returned to Kosovo?
9 A. That was the second time.
10 Q. And could you please indicate when was the first time?
11 A. The first time was August 2000.
12 Q. How long did you remain in August 2000?
13 A. In August 2000, stayed only two weeks.
14 Q. In that period of time you had been told the name, you say Fatmir
15 Limaj. Did you see him on television then?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Are you sure?
18 A. Yes, I am. I never saw him.
19 Q. When you returned for a second time, when was that?
20 A. I think it was the half -- the second half of December.
21 Q. And how long did you remain then?
22 A. Maybe three weeks or a month. I'm not sure.
23 Q. He was -- Fatmir Limaj was regularly on television, wasn't he?
24 A. After that time I saw him frequently. After I heard (redacted)
25 (redacted) telling me about him, I then saw him often on television,
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 newspapers, many times.
2 Q. And some of the broadcasts concerned the battle of Lapusnik
3 itself, did they not?
4 A. Those I saw much later, I think in 2002, not then, of Lapusnik
6 Q. And when in 2002 did you see the one that concerned or ones that
7 concerned Lapusnik and the battle?
8 A. I am not sure about the time.
9 Q. How long in 2002 did you spend in Kosovo?
10 A. In 2002 I remained in Kosova for quite a long time, several
11 months. Yes, it was quite a long time.
12 Q. In addition to broadcasts and media in Kosovo, were you following
13 developments in Kosovo in the country where you had gone to live?
14 A. In addition to Kosova? Yes, I tried to follow developments as
15 much as I could. I tried to watch television.
16 Q. And in the country where you were living, did you see reports
17 which concerned Fatmir Limaj?
18 A. Yes, I have.
19 Q. Can you help us as to when it was that you first saw reports
20 which concerned Fatmir Limaj when you were living in another country.
21 A. In the other country I was living in 2001, it was November. At
22 the end of November I went -- I left the other country and went back to
23 Kosova, and I stayed there until August 2002 in Kosova. As of November
24 2001 until August 2002, I have read many reports on Fatmir Limaj in the
25 press and I've seen reports on television, too. For the first time I saw
1 him on television, I can't tell you exactly when. It might be December
2 of 2002 because (redacted) told me, look, watch television, you will
3 see him. I'm not sure whether I was home or in the west. But I do know
4 that I saw him on television giving an interview, and then I recognised
5 him as the commander. But I have read -- as I said, often I have read
6 reports -- interviews by him. If you need, I can tell you two or three
7 instances of such interviews.
8 Q. At the moment I'm trying to isolate or identify the times when
9 you saw this material. In 1999, the year after the events in Kosovo that
10 affected your family, I don't want to know where you were living, but for
11 the whole of 1999 were you living somewhere other than in Kosovo?
12 A. Yes. During 1999 I was outside Kosovo, I was abroad.
13 Q. Now, during that year, did you read or see anything about Kosovo
14 and Fatmir Limaj whilst you were living abroad, during 1999?
15 A. During 1999 I could only follow the news reports of other
16 countries, because in Kosova the war was going on. I could speak to my
17 family on the phone, because by that time I found out that (redacted)
18 was killed by a Serb shell. And then another -- (redacted)
20 (redacted). So I followed the war, trying to keep
21 in touch with (redacted), telling them to leave Kosova, all these things.
22 Q. During that year, 1999, did you read or see or hear anything
23 about Fatmir Limaj?
24 A. No, not at that time.
25 Q. Where you were living, were you able to get a Kosovo television
2 A. Not in 1999, because at that time I was working and only one of
3 my relatives, close relatives, knew where I was located, no one else,
4 because I was facing major danger, threats to kill me. There was no
5 channel I could get there, no television. I could read the media every
6 two weeks, not every day, because I couldn't go to the city. I had to
7 work a lot and to be very careful, very careful at that time.
8 Q. Was there a time when you did get a channel -- a Kosovo
9 television channel which you could watch when you were not in Kosovo?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Can you indicate when that was, please.
12 A. Yes. It was during 2000 I could watch television. During 2001,
13 but usually on Saturdays and Sundays. Because I couldn't go home every
14 day after work.
15 Q. Did you see Fatmir Limaj on television during that time?
16 MR. WHITING: Excuse --
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, not at that time.
18 MR. MANSFIELD:
19 Q. Because I suggest during that time also there are plenty of
20 broadcasts which include his name and his face. Are you saying you
21 didn't see them?
22 A. No, I didn't see him at that time.
23 Q. Now, finally on this: Did (redacted) know the name -- had you
24 told him the name "Celiku"?
25 A. (redacted) found out on the same day with me when the person from
1 the village told us.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask Your Honours
3 that if he keeps asking me such questions everybody will know me. I will
4 answer, of course, but if it's possible I would appreciate if we went
5 into private session.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Are you pursuing --
7 MR. MANSFIELD: I only have one more question. I don't think it
8 requires a private session for this.
9 Q. I just want to know whether you told the (redacted) you've just
10 mentioned who was with you when you discovered the name Celiku in the
11 first place, whether you told him when you were released or you ran away
12 and escaped, whether you told him that you'd seen Celiku?
13 A. I have told him that Commander Celiku lended [as interpreted] us
14 a soldier. If you followed what happened, we were not interested in this
15 person. We were interested to find out the assassins, the killers. This
16 person didn't participate in the killings. We were after the killers.
17 Even today, he has not beaten me. He might have saved in this case
18 (redacted) because he might have headed the weapons in the direction of the
19 war and not used the munitions against us. Those three weapons might
20 have fired at the Serb forces than kill innocent Albanians. But even now
21 his behaviour was not as such to make me look after him. Shala too might
22 have managed to -- not to do what he did, even though the commander
23 lended the soldier. That's why I went to him, because he lended a
24 soldier. Before that moment, I didn't care who the commander of the zone
25 was. We had seen Commander Luani, his substitute. We had heard about
1 Qerqizi commander, I had seen Ram Buje in Krajmirovce, Shukri Buja, and
2 so on.
3 Q. It is for all those reasons that I want to suggest if he was the
4 one man who could have saved (redacted), he was the one man you would
5 have mentioned as soon as you had an opportunity either to the Serbs or
6 the CCIU. Do you follow?
7 A. Thank you first that you are mentioning names, even though I am
8 trying not to mention names since the Court does not allow me to go into
9 private session, I thank you. I can tell you that I feel very much in
10 danger now even moreso now than in the past. Had not the killing
11 happened, I would have mentioned the first and the second and the third
12 time. When the murder took place, that was the only thing on my mind. I
13 didn't care who the commander was, who gave the order. I was interested
14 only in the killer. And we tried hard risking our lives to come here.
15 Now I'm telling you what happened, sir.
16 MR. MANSFIELD: Your Honour, I have no other questions, and I'm
17 sure the last few mentions can be redacted. Thank you.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Mansfield.
19 I think a break now for the witness as well as for the tapes
20 would be a very welcome idea. I pause to inquire of the court officer
21 whether 20 minutes will be enough or whether a half-hour is needed.
22 MR. WHITING: Your Honour --
23 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Whiting.
24 MR. WHITING: If I might. I would just ask that the witness be
25 reminded that reference that redactions can be made. He's obviously
1 concerned about this and has become upset, and I think it would be
3 JUDGE PARKER: Could I remind you, sir, that the names that have
4 been mentioned are being removed from the record, and that is occurring
5 now. And that's what all these pieces of paper are that I'm signing.
6 They're orders to remove each of the things that might concern you.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I thank you, sir.
8 JUDGE PARKER: We will have a break now. We will resume at 10
9 minutes to 6.00.
10 --- Recess taken at 5.28 p.m.
11 --- On resuming at 5.55 p.m.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Guy-Smith.
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you.
14 Cross-examined by Mr. Guy-Smith:
15 Q. Good evening, sir. My name is Gregor Guy-Smith. I represent
16 Haradin Bala, (redacted). Do you
18 A. Yes, that's true. (redacted)
20 Q. We believe and contend that you are mistaken in that regard,
21 entirely mistaken. Do you understand?
22 A. I thought you said I'm mistaken. I'm wrong?
23 Q. That is correct.
24 A. What about?
25 Q. (redacted).
1 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, we're in open session, Your Honour --
2 JUDGE PARKER: I'm getting that from all sides --
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: I apologise, and I apologise again.
4 JUDGE PARKER: We'll go into closed session [sic] so you can
5 pursue the matter.
6 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you.
7 [Private session]
11 Pages 2465-2467 redacted. Private session.
19 [Open session]
20 MR. GUY-SMITH:
21 Q. I want you to take a look at this particular exhibit and without
22 mentioning any of the names that are on this exhibit. That's a piece of
23 paper and that's identified as 0323-0797, which I believe is exhibit 108
24 that you prepared. Correct?
25 A. The one in black, it's my writing; and as for the English
1 writing, that's not mine.
2 Q. With regard to the writing that's in black, and specifically with
3 regard to group 2, could you identify how many names are in that group?
4 Not the names themselves, but the number of names.
5 A. 13 names.
6 Q. As I understand your testimony, sir, out of those 13 names, three
7 of those individuals escaped from the execution site. Is that correct?
8 A. Yes. In the beginning that's what I thought was true.
9 Q. Excuse me. And when you say in the beginning you thought that
10 was true, are you referring to the time you made this statement on the
11 17th of August, 2001?
12 A. No. I'm referring to the beginning when the groups were divided
13 by Shala. This is how I recall according to the notes I took, but later
14 on I realised that (redacted) was with the first group and was not
15 killed. However, I can say one thing to you. I remember a lot. I
16 haven't been there to study or to prepare an exam. It's very simple.
17 These names are in this first group and these are in the second group.
18 But later on when I saw (redacted), when he explained to me that he went
19 with the first group, that's when I believed that he was in the first
20 group and not in the second.
21 Q. Let me ask you this, and perhaps I'm mistaken in my counting. I
22 count 14 names, not 13. Am I correct in that regard?
23 A. You're right. I have counted 13.
24 Q. You've counted 13? And how many are there?
25 A. Now I see that there are 14.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 You but a moment ago indicated that you took am notes regarding
3 your experience. Do you still have those notes?
4 A. I have this paper in front of me. What notes are you referring
6 Q. You said but a moment ago: "No, I am referring to the beginning
7 when the groups were divided by Shala. This is how I recall according to
8 the notes I took."
9 And I'm asking you there when -- I'm asking you there --
10 A. What I referred to is according to the notes here, how I've put
11 things on this paper, because from that event, from 1998, I have never
12 put down a word and I haven't written a name down except for Shala. We
13 had it as a note taken down, his name. And as for people who are dead, I
14 don't take notes for them.
15 Q. You've told us that you at some point realised that one of them
16 -- one of the individuals you'd claimed had escaped was in fact in a
17 different group, is that correct, (redacted)?
18 A. That's how it was.
19 Q. When did you supply the Prosecution with that information?
20 A. I didn't give this information to the Prosecution. Once in
21 Pristina the CCIU had (redacted) with them and (redacted) was there,
22 I was there, we were all there. And (redacted) addressed me --
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sorry to interfere, but are we in
24 open or closed session?
25 MR. GUY-SMITH:
1 Q. We are in open session. And I'll be happy to go into private
2 session for the moment because you seem to have an urge to continue with
3 your answer, and I'm assuming you feel the need to be in private session.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Private session.
5 [Private session]
17 [Open session]
18 MR. GUY-SMITH:
19 Q. During the course of the time that you have spoken with
20 investigators, either from the CCIU or from anywhere else, such as the
21 ICTY, have you been confronted with the statement of (redacted) in
22 which he contends that your words in terms of him escaping is a lie?
23 A. No. Nobody told me about this issue. I heard about it on TV.
24 Q. I see. I take it that you have been watching these proceedings
25 with some great interest. Is that correct?
1 A. As much as I could, when the sessions were public, not all of
2 them but just when I was at home, that's when I followed the trial.
3 Q. Well, thus far you've identified two specific witnesses that you
4 watched, and I take it from the answer just given that you also watched
5 the testimony of an investigator Birkeland. Is that correct?
6 A. I haven't watched his testimony. I haven't watched or heard
7 (redacted) statement.
8 Q. Apart from the individuals thus far mentioned, have you also seen
9 other parts of this trial?
10 A. I don't know which parts you are referring to. When the sessions
11 were private, of course I couldn't watch them. And even when they were
12 public, I couldn't always watch and follow them because I am a family
13 man. I have a wife, I have children, I have to move here and there
14 because it's expensive where I live. And I have to provide for my
15 family; I can't stay at home all the time.
16 Q. Could you tell us, please, how many days of the trial you have
18 A. I've watched the Serbs, and I have carefully listened to their
20 Q. That doesn't answer my question, which is: How many days have
21 you watched?
22 A. In days I cannot say exactly how many days it was. There were
23 breaks, there were closed sessions, as you know yourselves how things
24 here proceeded.
25 Q. I'll turn to another subject now, sir.
1 MR. GUY-SMITH: And we do need to go into private session.
2 JUDGE PARKER: Private session.
3 [Private session]
17 [Open session]
18 MR. GUY-SMITH:
19 Q. When you say "people," and you've mentioned a number of different
20 towns, could you identify who those people were, excluding anyone who
21 might be [inaudible]?
22 A. As for the names, to tell you who said or what they said, I did
23 not have direct contacts with them. But usually amongst us Albanians,
24 many things are spoken in guestrooms, in tea shops, in cafeterias. You
25 know, you hear stories like this person was a commander, he was a
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 commander here. So in this context we heard who Agim Murtezi was.
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: We'll need to go into private session for one
3 moment and then come right back out again.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Private session.
5 [Private session]
16 [Open session]
17 MR. GUY-SMITH:
18 Q. When you spoke with (redacted) concerning information that he had
19 received about who Shala was, where were you? And by that I'm not ask
20 you specifically were you -- the place you were, the specific geographic
21 place you were. But were you in his presence? Was this over the phone?
22 A. The first time -- (redacted)
1 (redacted). He then asked me, Do you know where he is? I said to
2 him, No, I don't know where he is --
3 Q. Excuse me. We're in open session for the moment. We should be
4 in private session.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Private session.
6 [Private session]
11 Page 2479 redacted. Private session.
6 [Open session]
7 MR. GUY-SMITH:
8 Q. You've identified Shala.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. As a man with dark hair, a moustache, approximately 175 to 180
11 centimetres tall, with dark skin. Correct?
12 A. When you say "dark skin," yes, he looked like a dark-skinned
14 Q. Now, you, sir, you spent your life as a (redacted). Correct?
15 A. I was a (redacted), not a (redacted).
16 Q. And as -- I take it as a (redacted) you had occasion to work -
17 and help me here - (redacted), engaging in hard physical
18 labour. Is that a fair statement?
19 A. Yes, it is true that it was hard work throughout the day.
20 Q. And this is some work that you've done for some period of time in
21 your life. Correct?
22 A. Yes. From the time when I reached working age and to this
23 moment, and I think that I will continue doing the same work till I'm
25 Q. And after some period of time of this kind of work you've
1 achieved, I would assume, a certain amount of strength from constantly
2 lifting heavy loads. Is that a fair statement?
3 A. Not something outstanding, just like a normal human being.
4 Q. And this man Shala, when you described him, you described him as
5 having the same build and the same strength that you have. Correct?
6 A. No, he doesn't have the same strength. Now he looks a little bit
7 with more weight. He was thinner in Lapusnik, but his eyes are the same.
8 His eyes are those that I saw in Lapusnik. This is the person and
9 there's no need for us to discuss this matter. And as for my strength, I
10 cannot say that he had the same strength as me; that's what I think.
11 Because when I looked at him and when I would look at myself, I thought
12 that I was stronger than him.
13 Q. Well, as a matter of fact we do have to continue discussing this
14 matter. And I appreciate the fact that you think you are stronger than
15 him. He was certainly a man who was robust and vibrant, from what you've
16 told us. He was quite active during the time you saw him. Correct?
17 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I think that misstates his testimony.
18 He did not -- from what you've told us, he did not describe him as robust
19 and vibrant and quite active.
20 JUDGE PARKER: I think it was put in the way Mr. Guy-Smith puts
21 many of his questions, a statement with the question at the end, correct,
22 if I don't misunderstand what you're saying, Mr. Guy-Smith.
23 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you so much, Your Honour, correct.
24 Q. Let me repeat my question then. Shala, a man who you saw for
25 some period of time, was quite active during the time you saw him, wasn't
2 A. I don't know -- what do you mean by active?
3 Q. Well, you've told us -- let's see, it's -- oh my, it's 20 to
4 7.00. You've told us that you saw him beating a man with a stick for a
5 half an hour. Correct?
6 A. Now I understand your question. Yes, I've seen Shala active
7 there, beating people. Every day I've seen him bringing us food,
8 bringing us water, beating us. This is all I've seen there.
9 Q. Well, I want to for the moment focus on Shala the beater. And as
10 you have told us, the first time I believe that you saw Shala beating
11 somebody, he did so for half an hour. Is that correct?
12 A. Yes. He beat Musli Belince. He beat me first and then (redacted).
13 And then I saw him beat Musli Belince.
14 Q. He took -- he was active during that time. He took no breaks in
15 the beatings, is that how I take it?
16 A. What do you mean, the whole day?
17 Q. No. During the half an hour period of time that you've told us
18 about when you were being asked questions by Mr. -- excuse me. Excuse
19 me. When you were being asked questions by Mr. Whiting and you related
20 the beating that you saw with a stick that was I believe rather thick and
22 A. Yes, it was a wooden stick.
23 Q. And you told us that that beating lasted for half an hour.
25 A. Yes. I said it lasted for half an hour, but it would be a little
1 shorter, a little longer. I did not measure it with time, but it was
2 approximately half an hour.
3 Q. And during that period of time, this man Shala continuously beat
4 the individual and you saw this. Correct?
5 A. Shala was hitting him with this wooden stick, the one that I've
6 seen and the one you are mentioning. He grabbed him and threw him on the
7 threshold because Mr. Belince was very old and he was sick. He wasn't
8 able to cross into the other room, so he put him in the other room and he
9 continued to beat him in the other room as well. And the next day he
10 couldn't even stand on his feet because of this beating, because this
11 Musli Belince could work -- could walk before that.
12 Q. And during the time that this was occurring, he was all by
13 himself, was he? And by that, I mean Shala was all by himself doing this
15 A. The time when he beat Musli Belince, it was just him.
16 Q. All of the other beatings that you've described, there were a
17 number of guards in the room when those occurred. Correct?
18 A. Which beatings are you referring to? Because my beating,
19 (redacted)'s beating, Shaban Hoti's twice, and Musli Belince's beating, this
20 is what I've seen. During my beating it was only Shala beating us and
21 two persons with Kalashnikov were standing at that door. As I explained
22 earlier on the second beating there were some other persons who I didn't
23 know, and during the Musli Belince's beating it was only Shala beating
24 him. And as I said, he couldn't walk and Shala dragged him to the other
1 Q. When you say that Shala dragged him to the other room, I take it
2 when Shala was dragging him to the other room he did this unassisted, he
3 had nobody helping him. Did he pick him up? My question is: Did Shala
4 pick this man up?
5 A. Now it's been how he dragged him. He did not make him stand up.
6 He was on the ground with his feet on the ground and his knees on the
7 ground. So Shala did not lift him up, he just grabbed him there and
8 dragged him to the other room. This is how it was.
9 Q. And the man that he dragged to the other room, that man weighed
10 over 60 kilos, did he not?
11 A. Maybe even more than that, but Shala did not have to carry all
12 his weight with his hands. He just dragged him. He was on all fours.
13 So half of his weight was carried by Shala and half of his weight, he
14 carried it himself while walking -- moving on all fours.
15 Q. Now, this man Shala, you told us that on I believe it would have
16 been the last day that you were at the camp he and Murrizi left with you
17 and walked up towards the Berisa mountains. Is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. It was a hot day; true?
20 A. Yes, it was a hot day, a very hot day.
21 Q. And the walk from Lapusnik up to the Berisa mountains, is that on
22 flat ground or are you walking uphill then?
23 A. The route was straight on some parts. On some parts it was flat,
24 some parts for pedestrians, some parts for tractors. Then we left the
25 main road because he said to Murrizi to go on left. And then we took a
1 path through some meadows where tractors could pass. So this is how the
2 path was.
3 Q. Could you tell us whether or not there was a rise in elevation,
4 if you understand what I mean - of course being a (redacted) I'm sure you
5 do - from the time you left Lapusnik to the time that you got to the big
6 rock. What was the difference in altitude?
7 A. The route from Lapusnik was -- in the beginning it was sort of
8 climbing, rising up, and then it was just going uphill. And then on the
9 main road it was again a flat part, and then we went downwards, down the
10 slope, and got to the cherry tree.
11 Q. This walk, the initial walk from the time that you left the camp
12 to the time that you got to the big rock, this was not an easy walk, was
13 it, in the heat?
14 A. No, it wasn't an easy walk. The route was really difficult. And
15 as I mentioned it in my statement, half of the prisoners, they were half
16 dead. Personally I can say that (redacted) and members of the Xhemtafa
17 family were half dead without any food, without any water, tied, beaten
19 Q. That was a steady pace of a walk, and Murrizi and Shala were
20 pushing you along, weren't they? They were trying to keep the line
21 moving along. Correct?
22 A. No. This is not how it was. What do you mean Murrizi and Shala
23 pushed us to walk? Murrizi was leading the line. Nobody could come
24 before him, while Shala was in the end. And as I mentioned it earlier or
25 yesterday in my statement, he told us at the well, he warned us.
1 Q. I see. So Murrizi was the person who was setting the pace.
2 Nobody could pass Murrizi obviously. Correct?
3 A. Murrizi was in the head of the line and he was always under
4 Shala's control -- command. Whatever Shala told him, he complied with
5 his orders. When Shala told him, Stop, then Murrizi would stop. When he
6 would tell him, Start walking, then we would start walking. When he
7 would say to him, Turn left, we would turn left. And at the moment when
8 he -- Shala said to Murrizi -- Murrizi said to Shala, Which way are we
9 going, to Klecka or Berisa? Then we all knew that even from the prison
10 that Shala had a greater authority than Murrizi.
11 Q. Now, Shala --
12 A. He was under Shala's command.
13 Q. Now, Shala -- as I understand your testimony, Shala at some point
14 in time left you with a group of people and was gone for about two hours.
15 Correct? Is that what happened? Shala walked off with a group of
17 A. Shala with a group of people, with the first group, he left with
18 them probably two hours -- but I don't know exactly because I did not
19 have a watch. And Murrizi stayed there with a soldier to keep watch on
21 Q. With regard to Shala, when Shala left you with this group of
22 people, was he walking? The journey that he took, was he walking uphill,
23 downhill, do you know?
24 A. At the cherry tree, they did not go uphill towards Berisa. It's
25 the road to Suhareke that goes downhill. We saw them for 100 metres and
1 then we couldn't see them because they went through the mountain, through
2 the forest, and we couldn't see them.
3 Q. And after a considerable period of time you saw Shala jaunting
4 back to the cherry tree, correct? He came back?
5 A. Yes. After some time he came back. He sat down there with
6 Murrizi to rest a little bit. He kept the Kalashnikov on his lap. He
7 also lit a cigarette and smoked it, took out his notebook at his pocket
8 here, small notebook, and he said, People who I call their names, say:
9 Here. And he started calling the names. Everybody stepped aside when we
10 heard our name.
11 Q. We will get there. During the period of time that you were
12 walking from the camp area up to the cherry tree, during that period of
13 time did Shala stop the group and sit down, take a break?
14 A. Yes. From the prison -- do you mean from the prison?
15 Q. That's correct.
16 A. Yes. From the prison to the cherry tree I remember that three or
17 four times we stopped to have a rest because it was very difficult,
18 especially to carry the one person that was injured. (redacted) some
19 (redacted) elderly people, too, they couldn't walk, so they had to have a rest
20 in order to walk on later.
21 Q. When -- I'm going to go now back to the -- Lapusnik with you for
22 a moment. And as I understand it you've identified approximately four or
23 five people who you saw there who you claim were guards or member of the
24 KLA. Could you tell us how many people you saw there who were in
1 A. People in uniform, only the people who came inside the room where
2 I was. These were the people that I saw in uniform, Shala, Murrizi,
3 Qerqizi, Salihi who is a cousin of Qerqizi, another person, his name was
5 Q. Now, apart from the individuals you've just mentioned, you also
6 have told us about this - and I'm moving away from that area - you've
7 also told us about this third soldier. Did you ever get a name for that
9 A. Which one do you mean?
10 Q. The third individual who was at the execution site as you've
11 mentioned it.
12 A. No, no. I never learned his name.
13 Q. Do you recall having conversations with members of the CCIU
14 concerning receiving information from a relative, without naming who that
15 individual might be, in that record?
16 A. Yes, I do remember.
17 Q. And you're --
18 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm sorry. Could we go into private session but
19 for a moment?
20 JUDGE PARKER: Private session.
21 [Private session]
11 Page 2489 redacted. Private session.
11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.,
12 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 27th day of
13 January, 2005, at 2.15 p.m.