Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2491

 1                           Thursday, 27 January 2005

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  Good afternoon.  If I could remind you, sir, of

 7     the affirmation you took at the beginning of your evidence which still

 8     applies.

 9             Mr. Guy-Smith.

10             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Yes, if we could go into private session, please,

11     Your Honour.

12             JUDGE PARKER:  Private session.

13                           [Private session]

14  (redacted)

15  (redacted)

16  (redacted)

17  (redacted)

18  (redacted)

19  (redacted)

20  (redacted)

21  (redacted)

22  (redacted)

23  (redacted)

24  (redacted)

25  (redacted)

Page 2492











11    Pages 2492-2493 redacted. Private session.















Page 2494

 1  (redacted)

 2  (redacted)

 3  (redacted)

 4  (redacted)

 5  (redacted)

 6  (redacted)

 7  (redacted)

 8                           [Open session]

 9             MR. GUY-SMITH:

10        Q.   With regard to those claims, have you ever been confronted by

11     anyone from the Prosecution with a statement of his, of (redacted)'s,

12     claiming and stating that you are lying about this?

13        A.   No, never.

14        Q.   The information that you received from a member of your family,

15     without identifying who the individual was, with regard to Murrizi was

16     that Murrizi was a gentleman named Agim Murtezi.  Correct?

17        A.   Yes, correct.  The information for Murrizi was that his name was

18     Agim Murtezi.

19        Q.   Based on the information that you received, you then told others

20     that Murrizi was Agim Murtezi, didn't you?

21        A.   When I received information, I didn't see Agim Murtezi, I didn't

22     see him at the moment I had his photo.  I saw him in the prison, at the

23     cherry tree, and at the execution site --

24        Q.   I'm sorry, sir, that's not the question that I asked you.  The

25     question that I asked you was a simple one which was:  "Based on the

Page 2495

 1     information that you received, you told others that Murrizi was Agim

 2     Murtezi, didn't you?"

 3        A.   I don't mean -- what you mean "others"?

 4        Q.   Others, for example, investigators from the CCIU.

 5        A.   Yes, that is right.

 6        Q.   The information that you received regarding Agim Murtezi was

 7     wrong, wasn't it?

 8        A.   Before the information turned out to be wrong, when they showed

 9     me the photo line-up I couldn't tell who Murrizi was or Agim Murtezi, as

10     they say, to sign his name and his number.  If I weren't sure about him

11     like I was about Shala, Qerqizi, Celiku, I couldn't do anything about

12     Murtezi, I couldn't write his name.

13        Q.   Once again, the information that you received - that is what I'm

14     focusing on - is that the information that you received was wrong.

15             MR. WHITING:  Your Honour --

16             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Excuse me --

17             MR. WHITING:  Your Honour --

18             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Excuse me, Mr. Whiting.

19             MR. WHITING:  I'm objecting to the question.

20             MR. GUY-SMITH:  May I finish my question?

21        Q.   Wasn't it?

22             MR. WHITING:  Okay.  Now I'm objecting.

23             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you.

24             MR. WHITING:  I'm objecting on two grounds.  The first ground is

25     that the question has been asked and answered.  The second is that it's

Page 2496

 1     not really for this witness to say whether the information is wrong or

 2     not.  He has given his evidence in this issue and it's not for him to say

 3     whether it's wrong or not.  But in any case, the question has been put to

 4     him and he answered it.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Guy-Smith.

 6             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I disagree with Mr. Whiting's analysis on two

 7     issues.  First of all, with regard to the information this witness has

 8     received, he has the ability to render an opinion as to whether or not it

 9     was correct or incorrect information in the same fashion that he has

10     rendered an opinion with regard to other information he as received as

11     being correct or incorrect.  And it's obviously for the Trial Chamber to

12     make an ultimate determination in this regard.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  That was the first proposition.  Were there two?

14             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Yes, there are.  The second is that I don't

15     believe that he's answered the question.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  I think he's made in this atmosphere a normal

17     attempt at answering, but I'm not going to stop your exploring on the

18     basis of opinion, where complicated by the problem of hearsay and

19     searching into the quality of the substance of information given as

20     something which I think can be useful to the Chamber.  So halfway each on

21     this.

22             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you.

23        Q.   Sir, you were attempting, as were other individuals who are

24     (redacted) - and once again without mentioning anybody in

25     that regard by any further identification - to find out who were the

Page 2497

 1     people responsible at various times for various activities that you

 2     experienced.  Is that a fair statement?

 3        A.   Can you please ask the question again.  I'm not clear about that.

 4        Q.   Sure.  I'm more than happy to.

 5             You wanted to find out, for example, at one point in time who

 6     were the individuals who took you from your home; right?

 7        A.   Yes, that's right.

 8        Q.   You also seeked [sic] to get the names of the individuals who you

 9     were about and around or who were around you in Lapusnik.  Correct?

10        A.   Yes, correct.

11        Q.   And you at the time that you were attempting to get this

12     information --

13             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I suppose we should go into private session for

14     but a moment.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  Private session.

16                           [Private session]

17  (redacted)

18  (redacted)

19  (redacted)

20  (redacted)

21  (redacted)

22  (redacted)

23  (redacted)

24  (redacted)

25  (redacted)

Page 2498











11    Pages 2498-2504 redacted. Private session.















Page 2505

 1  (redacted)

 2  (redacted)

 3                           [Open session]

 4             MR. GUY-SMITH:

 5        Q.   With regard to the third soldier who was at the execution site,

 6     do you recall ever giving anybody any information concerning his physical

 7     characteristics?

 8        A.   I don't remember having an information about him.  And as for

 9     him, as I mentioned it in the statement, he was just opposite to me and

10     he was shooting at my direction.  I don't know whether he's alive now or

11     whether he's dead.  I don't know where he is.  I don't know him at all.

12     But I always thought that although he was given an order to shoot me,

13     maybe he had a soul, maybe that's why he didn't kill me, maybe that's why

14     I managed to escape.  I don't remember giving his description to anyone.

15        Q.   What you were trying to do throughout this process of

16     identification, your attempting to identify who these people were, was

17     you were attempting to collect all the information you possibly could

18     about them so you would know who they were.  Isn't that right?

19        A.   Out of these persons, number one for us to find was Shala.  Every

20     movement in regard to (redacted) was to find out who Shala

21     is, who this man is, where he comes from, where his house is.  And this

22     was achieved.  The person was found, his identity was found, who his

23     father was was found.  So this person is sitting just behind you.

24        Q.   You had information concerning where the third soldier came from,

25     and by that I mean you had information that the third soldier, according

Page 2506












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Page 2507

 1     to you, came from somebody named Celiku.  Right?

 2        A.   What do you mean.  Did he come from a place called Celiku or what

 3     do you mean by Celiku?

 4        Q.   No.  That he was sent by an individual named Celiku to help, as

 5     you put it, Shala.  That was information you had; right?

 6        A.   This is how it was.  On our way uphill from the prison, this

 7     soldier was not with us; and on halfway, he was assigned to us.  We met

 8     with these people, and it's there where Shala said that Commander Celiku

 9     is coming.  And this is when this soldier joined us.  And up to that

10     point, we didn't have any soldier with us.

11        Q.   Well, with regard to this particular piece of information, the

12     piece of information concerning Celiku, this is a pretty important

13     information.  And you didn't share this information with anybody.  You

14     didn't give this information to anybody, the Serbs or CCIU, did you?

15             MR. WHITING:  Objection.  That misstates the evidence.  He did

16     give it to CCIU.

17             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Not initially, not at the outset.

18        Q.   Sir, that's what I'm getting at.  At the outset when you're

19     looking for these people, not when you've gone step by step and worked

20     through a plan with the investigator what happened.

21             JUDGE PARKER:  Was there a CCIU initially?

22             MR. GUY-SMITH:  No.  The initial statements were made to the

23     Serbs.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  That's -- your attempt to respond I think added

25     another confusion to the evidence.

Page 2508

 1             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I apologise.  I'm actually not trying to confuse

 2     evidence, although it's often something that Defence attorneys are

 3     accused of trying to do.  I'm trying to actually clarify things.

 4        Q.   When you first met with the Serb authorities, you didn't mention

 5     the name of Celiku, did you?

 6        A.   No, I didn't mention this name.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             MR. GUY-SMITH:  No further questions.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much, Mr. Guy-Smith.

10             Mr. Topolski.

11                           Cross-examined by Mr. Topolski:

12        Q.   I represent Isak Musliu.  I want to understand your position.

13     You are committed to seeking justice, are you not?

14        A.   Of course.

15        Q.   The search for justice for you takes the legal route, does it

16     not?

17        A.   Yes, that's what I think.

18        Q.   You have abandoned the Kanun, you have abandoned blood revenge.

19     Is that correct?

20        A.   I don't know what you mean by abandoning the Kanun and blood

21     (redacted).  What are you referring to?  I don't understand you.

22        Q.   I'm referring to what you told ICTY investigators, that you and

23     your family discussed whether you should murder those responsible for the

24     death of (redacted).  You abandoned that and chose the legal

25     route, didn't you?

Page 2509

 1        A.   This was discussion amongst family members how to proceed from

 2     the moment of the killing.  And we opted for the legal way.

 3        Q.   So from now on, sir, we can take out of account, can we, any idea

 4     that you are sitting here to get revenge?  That's not the case.  Is that

 5     right?

 6        A.   I'm not -- I don't understand you clearly.  What revenge are you

 7     referring to?

 8        Q.   I'm going to move on.  I want to ask you some questions, not

 9     many, about Murrizi.  And I'm not going to repeat the questions you've

10     been asked already.  Do you understand?

11        A.   Yes, I understand you very well.

12        Q.   The research that you and others were able to carry out gave

13     Murrizi the name Agim Murtezi, didn't it?

14        A.   That's how it was.  That's how we found that name.

15        Q.   A man called Agim Murtezi appeared in a dock very much like the

16     one behind me in about February 2003.  Did you see that on television?

17        A.   Yes, very well.  I saw it very well, and I saw that a person came

18     here.

19        Q.   Did you pick up a telephone and tell anyone they got the wrong

20     man?

21        A.   Why shall I pick up the phone?

22        Q.   Because you want justice; you don't want revenge.  That's why.

23     You knew the man Agim Murtezi in this dock behind me was not Murrizi.

24     What did you do about that?

25        A.   Before Agim Murtezi got to this bench of the accused, CCIU showed

Page 2510

 1     me six pictures.  The first set was of Shala and then of Qerqiz and then

 2     of Celiku.  They didn't say whether you know someone from Lapusnik or

 3     whether you know someone from there or here.  I looked carefully at the

 4     pictures, and then when I was shown Agim Murtezi's pictures I wasn't sure

 5     who that person was.  So that's why I couldn't circle his number and

 6     sign.  And when the ICTY brought him here, I don't have the power to

 7     change -- to make changes to that.  As for other witnesses, whether there

 8     was a mistake or something, this matter is not in my hands.  I saw him

 9     here.  I was just watching and waiting what will happen.  But as for me,

10     it was difficult to circle his name and sign it because I didn't know

11     this person.  That's why.  Why should I pick up the phone?  Who shall I

12     call?

13        Q.   So you're not responsible for sending him here; he comes here, he

14     could have stood trial and been convicted for all you know or for all you

15     care.  Is that your position regarding Agim Murtezi, yes or no?

16        A.   As to whether he could have been sentenced based on other witness

17     statements, I have nothing to do with it.  But as for me, I can say that

18     I could not identify him on that picture.  I couldn't say personally that

19     this person is Agim Murtezi.

20        Q.   You don't have to repeat your answers for us all to understand

21     them.  Would you like to send an apology to him now?

22             MR. WHITING:  I'm going to object to that, Your Honour.

23             MR. TOPOLSKI:

24        Q.   Would you like to apologise to Agim Murtezi for misnaming him as

25     a man who shot at you and others?  Can you give him an apology now?

Page 2511

 1     Now's your chance.

 2             MR. WHITING:  Your Honour, I object.

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  I hear the objection.  I don't accept the

 4     objection.

 5             MR. TOPOLSKI:

 6        Q.   Now, answer my question.  Do you want to apologise or not?

 7        A.   I would have apologised to him if I said that this person is Agim

 8     Murtezi.  On that case, I would apologise.  But I looked at those

 9     pictures very carefully and I cannot say that this person was in

10     Lapusnik.  So I don't see the need for me to apologise to him.  Tell me,

11     why should I apologise?  Give me the reason, and then I will apologise.

12        Q.   I don't answer your questions; you answer mine.  And I'm going to

13     move on.

14        A.   But this is my answer.  I don't see a need to apologise because I

15     did not identify that person on the pictures that were shown as a person

16     who was at the killing.  It is very difficult to circle someone's name

17     when you're not sure.

18        Q.   You give names when you're not sure, don't you?

19        A.   I said that I heard that Murrizi was a person called Agim

20     Murtezi, but when the investigators showed me the pictures and asked me

21     to identify who was Agim Murtezi from those pictures, I couldn't identify

22     him.  So I had the pictures before me.  There were six on that line-up.

23     And I was supposed to identify the person, but I couldn't pick up the pen

24     and circle the number because I didn't know who the person was.  And then

25     the photo line-up was taken from me, I don't know where.

Page 2512

 1             MR. TOPOLSKI:  Can we go into private session just for a moment,

 2     please?

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  Private session.

 4                           [Private session]

 5  (redacted)

 6  (redacted)

 7  (redacted)

 8  (redacted)

 9  (redacted)

10  (redacted)

11  (redacted)

12  (redacted)

13  (redacted)

14  (redacted)

15  (redacted)

16  (redacted)

17  (redacted)

18  (redacted)

19  (redacted)

20  (redacted)

21  (redacted)

22  (redacted)

23  (redacted)

24  (redacted)

25  (redacted)

Page 2513

 1  (redacted)

 2  (redacted)

 3  (redacted)

 4  (redacted)

 5  (redacted)

 6  (redacted)

 7  (redacted)

 8  (redacted)

 9  (redacted)

10  (redacted)

11  (redacted)

12  (redacted)

13  (redacted)

14  (redacted)

15  (redacted)

16  (redacted)

17  (redacted)

18  (redacted)

19                           [Open session]

20             MR. TOPOLSKI:

21        Q.   I want to see if I can establish with you as closely I can the

22     dates between which you were held at Lapusnik according to you.  Let's

23     work together.  First of all, can you give us a date in July 1998 when

24     you say you were taken?

25        A.   I don't know the exact date, but I know it was two weeks after

Page 2514












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Page 2515

 1     the kidnapping of (redacted).  I think it was two weeks

 2     after; I don't know the exact date.

 3        Q.   If that event that you've just referred to occurred about the 4th

 4     of July, let's see if we can't get to a date together.  On the 18th of

 5     July you were with SUP, weren't you, talking about to Serb police?

 6        A.   I don't know on which date I was in the SUP.

 7        Q.   Well, I'm telling you it was the 18th.  We have a document, and

 8     you and I together are going to be looking at it in a little while.  So

 9     it's not the 18th.  How many days after your interview with SUP in [sic]

10     (redacted) and (redacted) to be exact, how many days after

11     that interview with (redacted) and (redacted) were you taken, approximately?

12        A.   I don't know.  After this day a meeting was held in the school

13     building.  I don't know exactly when that meeting was held, but I know

14     that it was on that night.

15        Q.   Well, I'm going to try and help you.  It looks from other

16     evidence that that was probably the 20th of July.  Now, we know that

17     Lapusnik fell to the Serbs on the 26th of July.  We also know that the

18     terrible events in the forest occurred on that day or probably the day

19     before, the 25th of July; which would mean, if I'm right, sir, that you

20     spent perhaps five days and nights in the place you have described as the

21     camp.  Do you agree with me?

22      A.   I know that the first three nights, I spent them with (redacted), with

23     (redacted), with (redacted).  Musli Belince was there as well and a person

24     from Varigovc village.  I spent the first three days with the

25     above-mentioned persons.  On the last day Isak blindfolded me, and I

Page 2516

 1     mentioned it in my statement what he did to me.  So he blindfolded me and

 2     took me to the other room.  And to my recollection, I spent four days

 3     there in the second room.  Maybe it's three, but as far as I remember it

 4     was four.  I don't know dates, but I know this in days.  I know that I

 5     spent three nights in the first room.  I know that I've been there three

 6     nights and three days and that (redacted)

 7     (redacted)

 8        Q.   What is clear from your evidence is that the beatings that you

 9     say you received from Qerqiz you received during those first three days.

10     That's right, isn't it?

11        A.   Yes, that's how it was.

12        Q.   You see, the reasons I ask you these questions, sir, are these:

13     That it is my client's case, and therefore I put it to you for your

14     comment, that between lunchtime on the 18th of July and midday on the

15     24th of July, he was not in Lapusnik, he was fighting in Rahovec.  Now,

16     if I'm right about that, he wasn't there when you were there.  Would you

17     care to comment about that?

18        A.   Yes.  You think that Isak was in Rahovec fighting; this is your

19     opinion.  But my opinion is that I never ever believed that Isak was

20     fighting in Rahovec.  Why?  Because on that day when he entered the room

21     with Murrizi and with the soldiers and ordered them to chain me up and

22     when he started to punch me and hit me and when he jumped and hit me on

23     the chest and then I fell on the ground and he started kicking me, this

24     Isak here beating us there and with a soldier behind holding us at

25     gunpoint, this Isak was not fighting there.  I am convinced that he never

Page 2517

 1     ever went out to fight.  What he could do was to find someone, to tie him

 2     up, to beat him.  This is what I think.

 3        Q.   You used the words "believe" and "convince" I lot, Witness.  Have

 4     you become convinced that it was Isak Musliu?

 5        A.   Where?  On a fighting or beating me?  Where?

 6        Q.   Have you become convinced it was Isak Musliu beating you?  Is

 7     that what you believe?

 8        A.   Without thinking, I have seen him there.  A person whom I knew

 9     from before the war who I've seen before the war.  What do you mean by

10     believe?

11        Q.   I'll come back to that.  Have you ever been an informant for the

12     Serbs?

13        A.   Never.  Whatever I say here you will take it a different way, but

14     I was never an informant.

15        Q.   Have any of your --

16        A.   I wasn't even interested to become one.

17        Q.   We'll talk about interests later.  Have any of (redacted) been

18     informants for the Serbs, to your knowledge?

19        A.   To my knowledge, no.

20        Q.   Did you after 1990 require a permit to keep a gun in Kosovo?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Who gave (redacted) permission to keep a gun after 1990 in

23     Kosovo?

24        A.   I will tell you this:  (redacted) was a hunter.  He had weapons in

25     his possession in 1980s while Tito was still alive.  After 1972, when

Page 2518

 1     Kosovo gained its autonomy and when the Albanians were ruling, the head

 2     of the SUP in Ferizaj and in Shtime was Albanian.  So (redacted) got

 3     another hunting rifle.  This was a hobby for my family.  (redacted), God

 4     bless his soul, he would often stop his work and go to hunt.  This was a

 5     hobby throughout this time.  It's not a hobby that we bought from some --

 6     this is something we loved and love knows of no boundaries.  I, too, went

 7     on hunting.  There were rumours that I was going out to hunt without

 8     permission for my weapon, that I was using (redacted) weapon without any

 9     permission.  At that time I had the opportunity to get a permission to

10     use (redacted) weapon.  At that time it was the same thing, like to get

11     a permission, a driving licence.  It was even more difficult to get a

12     passport or a driving licence than a hunting permission.  The Government

13     of Kosovo was functioning at that time, although they were --

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the witness go slower, please.

15             MR. TOPOLSKI:  Yes --

16             JUDGE PARKER:  Would you please pause a moment.  The interpreters

17     can't keep up with you.  You're pouring out a great deal of information

18     very quickly.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will comply with the requests.

20             We replied to every appeal that we received from the Government

21     of Kosovo.  At that time you had to pay a tax to the Kosovo government,

22     not only us but the -- everybody, the entire population of Kosovo.

23     Whatever we had to do on a national level, whatever was in the interests

24     of the people of Kosova, we did.  We boycotted the elections --

25             MR. TOPOLSKI:

Page 2519

 1        Q.   Please, we're about 25.000 miles away from the question that I

 2     asked you, which is:  What gave (redacted) permission to have a gun in

 3     1990.  And I think the answer is an Albanian who was head of SUP in

 4     Ferizaj at the time.  Now, you'll leave that witness box, you know,if you

 5     stop making speeches and listen to the questions and answer them.

 6             Now, I want to ask you this:  You deny being a Serb informant.

 7     You deny any member of (redacted) was a Serb informant.  Was it ever

 8     suggested to you to your knowledge by anyone in Kosovo before the war

 9     that you were a Serb informant?  Have you ever been accused of being such

10     a thing?

11        A.   No, never.

12        Q.   Very well.  In the light of those answers, I'd like to have in

13     Albanian in front of you the text of your interview with the Serbs of the

14     18th of July, 1998.  Mr. Mansfield had this yesterday.  It's in his

15     bundle I think.  And it's the third document.

16             MR. TOPOLSKI:  I hope the Court still has Mr. Mansfield's bundle

17     from yesterday.  It's got a frontispiece on it like that.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Do you have an ERN number, please.

19             MR. TOPOLSKI:  Sure.  In English U000-0691 to 0692 in what I

20     believe to be Albanian 0691 -- oh, the same number, to 0692, but it's

21     immediately following the English.

22        Q.   Now, you were asked questions about this yesterday or at least

23     parts of it by Mr. Mansfield on behalf of Mr. Limaj.  And I appreciate

24     we're going to have to be careful because there are names in this

25     document.  But before we start looking at it in your language and in

Page 2520

 1     mine, there's something else I want to ask you.

 2        A.   Of course, yes.

 3        Q.   In --

 4        A.   I would like to ask a question or make an appeal.  If we could go

 5     into private session for this because it -- I would be able to explain

 6     things better.

 7        Q.   Oh, yes.  Of course we will, but before we go into private

 8     session, I want to ask you something publicly and it's this:  You made a

 9     number of statements to ICTY investigators, did you not?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   I hope you'll take it from me, but of course you can have it in

12     front of you if you wish to.  I am looking at the statement you made on

13     the 8th and 9th of October of 2003.  I'm not looking at that document

14     you've got there for a moment, so you can put that down.  I'd like you to

15     listen.  This is what you said to the ICTY in a statement on that date:

16     "I have never referred to the KLA as terrorists and would never think of

17     the KLA as such.  They were our army and were fighting legitimately for

18     Kosovo.  Despite all I have witnessed and all I have been through, I do

19     not blame the KLA generally for what happened.  In my opinion, it is a

20     few people who were members of our army that are responsible, and it is

21     they are to blame and not the KLA as a whole."

22             MR. TOPOLSKI:  Mr. Younis has ever, very kindly, has handed over

23     a copy of that statement in Albanian I imagine.

24        Q.   If you go to paragraph 15 of it, you'll see that I've just read

25     it out.

Page 2521

 1        A.   Which number -- which is number 15?

 2        Q.   1-5, on the fourth page.

 3        A.   Yes, okay.  I found it.

 4        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  Good.  I just want to ask you, sir, to confirm

 5     to Their Honours, please, that this is both true and accurate a statement

 6     of your position, namely that you have never referred to the KLA as

 7     terrorists, would never think of them as such, and they were to you "our

 8     army."

 9             Is that what you believed then and is that what you believe

10     today?

11        A.   Yes, I will answer, and I will answer slowly so that you will --

12     you will understand.  All -- the three people in the dock there are from

13     Kosovo, but as far as I can see nobody else is here from Yugoslavia.  At

14     that time when you went to the SUP, even if they asked me at the SUP if

15     the KLA were terrorists, I would say yes.  Because there was no other way

16     to get out of that door, of Jasovic's door, if I had not answered like

17     that.  These people have done those things, but the people of Kosovo, the

18     KLA, have fought for freedom against the Serbian regime.  The same thing

19     was said here by Dr. Rugova in Milosevic's case.  The same thing he said

20     when he went to Belgrade.  He admitted things --

21        Q.   I'm interrupting because you have to slow down.  Wait, please --

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, Mr. Topolski.

23             MR. TOPOLSKI:

24        Q.   You have to slow down and perhaps you have to stop making

25     speeches.

Page 2522












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13   English transcripts.













Page 2523

 1        A.   Yes, I will try to speak slowly.  I will try to clarify this.

 2     What things were like then in Pristina.  Because this person was sent to

 3     Belgrade by force to -- Rugova was sent to Belgrade by force to shake

 4     hands with Milosevic because he was forced to do so.  And you're

 5     mentioning this statement.  Even if he had asked me if my mother was a

 6     member of the KLA I would have said yes because otherwise I would not

 7     have seen the light of day.  In addition to that, fighting has started

 8     there in areas of Kosovo.  The KLA fought for the freedom of Kosovo, sir.

 9        Q.   You know what's coming, don't you?  You know the questions I'm

10     going to ask you about this statement, don't you?  Answer me, please.  Do

11     you know what's coming?  Do you know what I'm about to ask you?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   One of the things I'm about to ask you is why this statement is

14     full of the word "terrorists."  Of course this is a statement made to

15     someone who's never been to your house for a drink.  (redacted)

16     never came to your house for a friendly drink, did he?

17             MR. WHITING:  Your Honour --

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sir --

19             MR. WHITING:  If I could just interrupt --

20             MR. TOPOLSKI:  Yes.

21             MR. WHITING:  And I apologise for the interruption.  I just note

22     when counsel put this statement to the witness he asked if we could go

23     into private session and counsel indicated he would -- well, I just

24     wanted to remind everyone that that had been said.

25             MR. TOPOLSKI:  Well, I'm very grateful for the reminder.  I hope

Page 2524

 1     I'm imposing enough self discipline.  These matters, in my respectful

 2     submission, are properly and appropriately canvassed in open court --

 3     open session.  When the time comes to consider the text, it was my

 4     intention and still is, that that is the time to go into private session.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  That is the proper course to try to follow, unless

 6     the witness gets into difficulties with the names.

 7             MR. TOPOLSKI:  Your Honour, of course.  It is not my intention

 8     nor object to create that situation.

 9        Q.   Now, this statement that we're about to look at is full of the

10     word "terrorists," and I was just asking you that it's a statement made

11     to a man who has made a statement to this Tribunal in which he has said

12     (redacted) that he comes to your house for drunks.  Now, were you

13     surprised to hear him say that in a statement to this Tribunal?

14             MR. WHITING:  Your Honour -- excuse me --

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't see it.  I don't see it.

16     Where is it?

17             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Whiting.

18             MR. WHITING:  I'm sorry to interrupt again, but that's not what

19     it says in the statement.  He does not -- there's a present tense/past

20     tense problem in the way the question has been posed.  And I hate to be

21     picky but it's important.  That is, there is no statement that he comes

22     to his house.

23             MR. TOPOLSKI:

24        Q.   Well, I'm going to read from Mr. (redacted)'s statement

25     signed by this -- signed to this Tribunal that is dated the 11th of May.

Page 2525

 1             Witness, I hope you're following me.  It's paragraph 14.

 2             "On the 1st of August somebody came from a place to a police

 3     station, 1st of August, 1998," you -- I'm not reading from that

 4     statement.  Has he been given it?  Is that (redacted) statement?  Oh,

 5     well, thank you.  I'm grateful.  It's not (redacted) statement.  Put

 6     that down, please, Witness, if you wouldn't mind.  That's not what I'm

 7     reading you.  I'm reading from the statement of (redacted) that says:

 8             "On the 1st of August 1998," you "from" your village "came to a

 9     police station to report that you'd been held in a prison.  I remember

10     this date because I knew," and he gives your first name only, "and his

11     (redacted) were friendly people who didn't oppose the

12     Serb authorities.  I often stopped," past tense, "by their house for a

13     drink and I went hunting with them."

14             Are you surprised to hear that Mr. (redacted) from MUP [sic] says

15     that about you and (redacted)?

16        A.   No, I'm not surprised.  But you have the wrong person because

17     there -- the family (redacted) had many members.  There was another one

18     who was a hunter who went with (redacted) hunting.  I'm not denying here

19     that (redacted) had Serbian friends.  From Tito's time to then going on to

20     the time of the autonomy and later on.  But he went on hunting with Serbs

21     and not with Serbs.  But this person from the police here, he is not the

22     one who went hunting; he is another one.  His name is -- he worked at

23     Ljuboten hotel.  He was the one that came to our home.  We drank coffee

24     and we went hunting.  But this is different.  It's another person, not

25     the one that you have there.

Page 2526

 1        Q.   Do you need a break?  Are you getting tired?  I want you to do

 2     justice to your answers.  Do you need a break?

 3        A.   No, no.  Not at all.

 4        Q.   I have the statement here in front of me of (redacted).

 5     (redacted)

 6     tells the Tribunal in the third paragraph of his statement that in April

 7     1991 he joined SUP in Urosevac.  His father was a police officer.  This

 8     isn't another (redacted), it's the same Serb policeman who drank at your

 9     house.  Now, do you want to change the answer you've just given us?

10        A.   You mean (redacted) was an officer?  I didn't understand that?

11        Q.   (redacted)

12  (redacted)

13  (redacted)

14  (redacted)

15  (redacted)

16  (redacted)

17  (redacted)

18  (redacted)

19  (redacted) 

20  (redacted)  The only thing that

21     he had was his guns, his hunting guns, from Tito's time, from the time of

22     the autonomy to the time of Slobodan Milosevic, and I cannot deny that.

23     When we speak about the time that I went to the SUP office, well, I had

24     to answer what he wanted me to answer about the KLA or everybody.

25        Q.   -- I'm going to interrupt because I'm going to ask you about

Page 2527

 1     that.  More importantly Mr. Whiting is on his feet, so I give way to him.

 2             MR. WHITING:  Your Honours, I wish I had raised this earlier, but

 3     it took me a moment to find the statement Mr. Topolski is referring to.

 4     I think out of fairness the rest of the paragraph that Mr. Topolski was

 5     reading from should be read, since the insinuation at bottom is -- that

 6     has been put to this witness was that he was providing information.  And

 7     if I could just read the remainder of the paragraph.

 8             MR. TOPOLSKI:  To make it clear, I certainly was intending to put

 9     it.  I wanted to get some answers first and then I was going to come back

10     to it.  But I'm happy for Mr. Whiting to read it out if he wishes to.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Whiting.

12             MR. WHITING:  The remainder of this paragraph is in reference to

13     this witness and his family:  "I would not say they were loyal Albanians

14     in the negative way and we never used them for getting intelligence

15     information.  They were just people who didn't make a difference between

16     different ethnicities.  Anyway, this could have been enough reason for

17     the Albanian separatists to have the desire to kidnap them."

18             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

19             MR. TOPOLSKI:

20        Q.   Were you loyal Albanians, you and (redacted)?

21        A.   To the national issue, yes.  Of course, without any doubt.  When

22     the issue was about national -- our national identity.  But to get a

23     birth certificate or to get a licence, we had to go to the Serbs for

24     those, to the municipality, to the police.  We had to get our IDs.  The

25     everyday things that were important to us, we had to go to them, not only

Page 2528

 1     me but also the number one in Kosovo, Dr. Ibrahim Rugova, he had to do

 2     that as well.

 3             But it's another issue if you ask, Have you ever worked for the

 4     police?  There were people at the time who were Albanians and who worked

 5     at the municipality, were heads of the municipality, mayors or so on.

 6     But for us we never had anything to do with the regime except, you know,

 7     the hobby, the hunting.  I said hunting and love are the same -- are very

 8     similar.  They don't know boundaries, colour.  When you love something,

 9     you love something.  You love basketball, you love football.  These are

10     things -- This is how we went together hunting with some Serbs; this is

11     what happened and I don't deny it.  And we still do it today.  There are

12     no Serbs anymore, but (redacted) still goes hunting with Albanian friends.

13     At that time there were Albanians as well who went hunting, but we had

14     Serbs as well with us.  This is it.

15             MR. TOPOLSKI:  Your Honours, I think it might be an appropriate

16     moment.  I wonder if when in retirement the Court might consider some

17     gentle words to the witness regarding the apparent advisability as some

18     might think of simply answering the questions as asked.  Obviously one

19     recognises the other aspect of this Court's function on the world stage,

20     but, Your Honour, there comes a time when the Court's time may not be

21     being most efficaciously spent.  And I wonder if the Court might consider

22     saying something to the witness on its return.  I hate to interrupt a

23     witness and say, Now answer my question; it sounds so lame.  Your Honour,

24     may I leave that thought with the Court during its adjournment.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  The Court to date has been conscious that the

Page 2529

 1     witness is in the hands of experienced counsel and that their attempts

 2     have not proved very useful.

 3             MR. TOPOLSKI:  No.

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  And I don't know that any intervention from the

 5     Chamber will.  We will see.

 6             MR. TOPOLSKI:  Your Honour might want to consider trying it once

 7     and see how we go.

8                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  We need a further 30-minute break because of the

10     redactions.  We will resume at a quarter past.

11                           --- Recess taken at 3.43 p.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 4.17 p.m.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  Sir, Mr. Topolski is now to ask you some more

14     questions.  Could I just ask you to try and keep in mind two things.

15     First, if you could answer more slowly, the interpreters will have a

16     chance to keep up with you.  We are interpreting into four different

17     languages and it becomes very hard when you speak very quickly.

18             The second thing I want to suggest to you is that you try and

19     keep clearly in your mind the question that's asked by counsel.  You seem

20     to have a tendency to start off to answer that question, but then you

21     drift away and start to tell a long story related to the question or

22     where -- about what you think the question is leading to.  All you need

23     to do is listen to the question and if you know the answer, give the

24     answer.  And you've no need to go on to explain anything about the

25     answer.  Just give the answer as shortly as you can and try to do it

Page 2530












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Page 2531

 1     reasonably slowly, if you could.  And I think that might help everyone to

 2     get through the matter more quickly.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understood, thanks.

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much.

 5             Yes, Mr. Topolski.

 6             MR. TOPOLSKI:  I'm very much obliged.

 7        Q.   You have told the Court on a large number of occasions that

 8     neither you nor any (redacted) cooperated with the Serb

 9     authorities.  I want to ask you a very specific question on that subject,

10     please.  And in fairness to you, I'm going to indicate to you what is

11     sitting here on my desk in front of me.  Just handed to me are the

12     minutes of a meeting dated the 20th of May, 1992.  It is a meeting of the

13     Presidency of the LDK branch for the area in which your village was

14     situated.

15             First of all, do you understand me so far?

16        A.   Yes, very well.

17             MR. WHITING:  Excuse me, could we be provided with a copy of

18     whatever it is you're referring to?

19             MR. TOPOLSKI:  Yes.  It's in Albanian, but you're very welcome

20     to.  I've had it translated for me in the last half-hour.  It's a rather

21     rough-and-ready translation that we had provided literally in the last

22     half-hour.  I'm very happy to provide him with a copy, if that will help

23     him.  Can I take Mr. Guy-Smith's.  I'm very grateful.

24             MR. WHITING:  Could it also be provided to the witness?

25             MR. TOPOLSKI:  No, because I'm just going to put the conclusion

Page 2532

 1     of the meeting to him and ask him if he became aware of the conclusion.

 2     The contents of the meeting are not for him.

 3        Q.   This meeting resolved that you and (redacted) should be

 4     boycotted because you continued to cooperate with the Serb police.  First

 5     question I ask you:  Do you understand what the word "boycott" means?

 6        A.   Yes, I understand it very well.

 7        Q.   The only question that I can properly ask you arising from this

 8     meeting seems to me to be this:  Did you become aware of a boycott of

 9     (redacted) in 1992?

10        A.   First of all, I would like to know what boycott this is about.

11     Is it for -- boycotted for weddings, for deaths, for funerals?  What does

12     it refer to?

13        Q.   Everything.  People were not to speak to you, to have anything to

14     do with you, to go to your house, to boycott you.  I want to know whether

15     you became aware of such a decision by this branch of the LDK.

16             MR. WHITING:  Your Honour, I don't -- I'm going to object and I

17     don't know if this rough translation is before the Court, but there's --

18     there are two points -- and maybe I'm just missing it because it's just

19     handed to me at this last moment and not beforehand, but number one, it

20     talks about noncooperation with the police and not cooperation with the

21     police.  And secondly, there's no reference to this witness in here, as

22     was put to him in the question by Mr. Topolski:  "This meeting resolved

23     that you and (redacted) should be boycotted because you continued to

24     cooperate with the Serb police."

25             I don't see any mention of his name in here, the witness, nor do

Page 2533

 1     I see any mention of cooperation.  It's talking about noncooperation.

 2     I'm a little -- just a little perplexed.

 3             MR. TOPOLSKI:  Well, let me see if I can help Mr. Whiting's

 4     perplexities.

 5        Q.   The effect of this decision, as I understand it, of this branch

 6     of this political party was that it was believed that members of (redacted)

 7     (redacted) were cooperating with the Serb police and a decision was made

 8     ordered by the LDK that people should have nothing to do with (redacted)

 9     (redacted).  Now, the only question I can ask you is:  Were you aware of such

10     a thing in 1992?

11             JUDGE PARKER:  The objection, Mr. Topolski, is that there is no

12     adequate foundation in the document for the premise upon which the

13     question is put.  We don't have the document, of course, but do you say

14     that there is an expressed mention of the witness and (redacted)?

15             MR. TOPOLSKI:  There is not an expressed mention of the witness;

16     there is mention of the witness's (redacted) by name.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  Simply the surname of the (redacted)?

18             MR. TOPOLSKI:  Could we go into private session, please.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, private session.

20                           [Private session]

21  (redacted)

22  (redacted)

23  (redacted)

24  (redacted)

25  (redacted)

Page 2534











11    Pages 2534-2543 redacted. Private session.















Page 2544

 1  (redacted)

 2  (redacted)

 3  (redacted)

 4  (redacted)

 5  (redacted)

 6  (redacted)

 7  (redacted)

 8                           [Open session]

 9             MR. TOPOLSKI:  Thank you.

10        Q.   Witness, we are in open session now and I am going to be careful,

11     very careful I hope, about names and I know you will be as well.  We are

12     looking together at the contents of a statement signed by you.  It is

13     said on or about the (redacted), when you were interviewed by

14     (redacted) and (redacted).  I was asking you whether you were

15     saying many of the things written here, and up to now you have said that

16     effectively you had no choice but that you were simply repeating things

17     they wanted you to say.  I want to go on in the document.

18             "On many occasions," it says, "in the late evening hours a

19     dark-coloured Jeep was seen in a village where the terrorists were

20     staying.  I heard that the so-called KLA members from villages," and

21     they're listed, including places like Suva Reka, "were also staying in a

22     someone's house," and you name that person, in a village called Laniste.

23             My question is this:  Did you tell the Serbs this or is this

24     again you simply putting down what they told you to say?

25        A.   It is the same thing as it is now with you.  You are reading a

Page 2545

 1     statement and that's what they did.  They would ask, Is this person a

 2     member?  Yes.  At that time, I will repeat it again, there were members

 3     from my village, members of the KLA.  And the persons who were

 4     interrogating me, they did not know this.  I can verify to you that they

 5     knew about the zones and the members of the KLA.  Before the statement

 6     started, he pointed some wooden sticks to me and said, Do you see this?

 7     So it's the wood stick that carried -- conducted the interview, not the

 8     wish.

 9        Q.   Just explain this, please, if you can.  If they knew this

10     already, why were they asking you?

11        A.   I don't know.  I don't know why they were asking these things.

12        Q.   Well, let's see something else that you presumably claim they

13     simply put down for you to sign:  "A few days ago a KLA staff was placed

14     in Rance village and will direct Petrastica and the other villages

15     while," and the number of other villages including Racak are mentioned

16     there, "will fall under the Rance village staff."

17             Now, whoever's written that seems to know an awful lot about what

18     the KLA are up to, don't they?

19        A.   I've heard many things about the KLA there in that office.

20        Q.   And outside that office, I suggest, and you are telling your

21     friends in the office exactly what you've heard.  That's what you're

22     doing here, and you're now distancing yourself from it as far as you can

23     run from it, aren't you?  That's what you're doing?

24        A.   No, I'm not distancing myself from what I've said.  But I will

25     repeat it again, that in most of the cases they would ask, Is this true?

Page 2546












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Page 2547

 1     And I would, Yes.  Is there a headquarters in Rance?  Yes.  Is this this

 2     person here?  Yes.

 3             But I'm glad that there's no name from -- persons from my village

 4     because at that time they had no idea that there were members of the KLA

 5     from our village.  So I'm glad that none of the names of persons from my

 6     village is mentioned here.

 7        Q.   I'm not going to go on through the rest of the document because I

 8     have no doubt you'll give us the same answers.  I want to ask you this:

 9     Were you then and are you now in any way motivated by a hatred of the

10     KLA?

11        A.   No.  The truth is no.

12        Q.   Can you tell us why you refused to have an Albanian interpreter

13     on one of the sessions you had with the ICTY investigators?  Don't you

14     trust Albanians?

15        A.   No, it's not that I don't trust them, but, sir, at that time

16     after the war people were still being killed.  And I had received phone

17     calls while I was in the western countries telling me, Be careful because

18     people want to trace you, they want to kill you.  So that's why I wanted

19     non-Albanian speakers so that I wouldn't be identified.  It was just a

20     question of survival for me to get to here, what I am now.

21        Q.   But you were with an ICTY investigator --

22             MR. WHITING:  Excuse me, I just ask for a reference, because I

23     think that misstates the evidence.  I think it was the CCIU that he was

24     referring to.  That was my recollection.

25             MR. TOPOLSKI:  I'll be corrected.  It's transcript from

Page 2548

 1     yesterday, page 61.  Give me a moment.  And it's line 16 -- Mr. Whiting

 2     is quite right.  It's CCIU.  "Because of the fact that the interpreter

 3     with the CCIU was a German, I refused to have an Albanian for an

 4     interpreter," in dealing with drawings he made in 2001.

 5        Q.   Well, let's stick with the month of August, but let's go back a

 6     little earlier than that, please.  I want to ask you about another

 7     meeting you had with the Serbs briefly, and that is a meeting of the (redacted)

 8     (redacted) or thereabouts with (redacted).  You remember being asked

 9     questions about this yesterday?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   It was a pure coincidence, was it, that here you are again in Mr.

12     (redacted) office on (redacted)?

13        A.   Yes, that's how it was.

14        Q.   You agreed with Mr. Mansfield yesterday when you said that the

15     statement that came out of that meeting was -- or rather, the note, I'm

16     sorry, the official note was, Mr. Mansfield's words, detailed and careful

17     a description.  That's what you told us about it yesterday.  Do you

18     remember saying that to us?

19        A.   Which notes were careful and detailed?  I did not understand this

20     quite.

21        Q.   That's a good question and it is my fault.  Let me put that in

22     front of you again.  You had them in front of you yesterday in Albanian,

23     I shall do the same again.  This is the second (redacted) meeting now,

24     (redacted).  Again, I remind you we're in open session so be careful

25     about names.  This is the document you described as a detailed and

Page 2549

 1     careful description of a number of events regarding your kidnapping and

 2     detention.

 3             Do you remember now telling us that?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   You told us yesterday that you in this meeting before Mr.

 6     Mansfield put this note to you that you referred solely to the killings

 7     in the forest.  I want to ask you a different question about this

 8     document.  Bearing in mind the words "detailed" and "careful," can you

 9     tell us why Qerqiz isn't mentioned here and the wicked beatings that you

10     received at his wicked hand time after time after time?

11        A.   Yes.  When the worst part, the killing, took part [as

12     interpreted], I forgot the wickedness from Qerqiz.  I was no longer

13     interested in the beatings; it was a minor thing compared to a killing.

14     I was focused on the killing itself, and I was in a position before an

15     authority who did not believe me that I was there in that position.  They

16     thought that I went there to fight and that I escaped.  On the one hand I

17     had the killing; on the other hand I had the authorities saying I was

18     there to fight and abandoned the ranks just before the Serb forces took

19     over.  So it was a moment of me surviving this situation.  The time

20     difference between the killing and the thing with the authorities was

21     very short.  So this is the reason why I didn't mention it.

22        Q.   "It was a minor thing compared to a killing."

23             True perhaps, but I wonder why you just didn't mention, Look,

24     there's an old friend of mine, someone I know really well who's a real

25     monster in that village.  His name's Musliu; they call him Qerqizi.  What

Page 2550

 1     was stopping you saying that?

 2        A.   I think I answered your question, sir.  I don't see a need to

 3     repeat myself.

 4        Q.   Well, let me ask you the next one then.  At the bottom of the

 5     second page of that document you mention another Musliu, Musli Musliu.

 6     When you were giving them that name, did it not occur to you to say, Oh

 7     yeah, there's another Musliu I've got to tell you about.  He's a monster.

 8     Do something about him, please.  I suppose you would give me the same

 9     answer, would you?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   A different answer.  Well, then give me the different answer if

12     you would.

13        A.   I will give you a different answer.  When I mentioned Musli

14     Musliu in that moment, I was referring to an evidence so that they

15     believe me what had really happened.  And for me to make them believe was

16     to tell them how many persons were killed there, how many persons were in

17     the prison.  So my evidence there was not, I was beaten by Qerqiz.  In

18     that moment I was fighting for my release to leave Kosovo.  When I came

19     back to put things straight, that's when I mentioned the name of Qerqiz.

20        Q.   Fighting for your release from Kosovo, all the more reason to

21     give these people as much information as you could.  Would you not agree?

22        A.   I'm telling you the truth.  I told them the truth, and they did

23     not trust me let alone to add things to it.  They would not believe me.

24     I was telling them the truth what I had seen there with my own eyes and

25     they didn't believe me.  They were saying, No, you are fighting there.

Page 2551

 1     How come you went there from (redacted) to a prison?  You went there to

 2     fight.

 3        Q.   Or is it because you hadn't got the name Qerqiz yet fed to you by

 4     (redacted) later?  Isn't that the reason?  His name's not there.  You

 5     didn't know who this monster was then, did you?

 6        A.   No, I knew even before that time who Isak Musliu was.  (redacted)

 7 (redacted), who was a KLA member and who came to the shop.  (redacted)

 8     (redacted).  I knew Salih whom I saw in Lapusnik.  His name was

 9     Salih, his real name.  I had many close persons that I knew and who were

10     members of the KLA and who have told me things, although they were afraid

11     to speak about what they knew.  And they have told me things because they

12     trusted me.  Here I needed just a proof for the killings because I wanted

13     to leave, because the Serbs would do something to you without any reason.

14     They would take you and beat you up without any reason, as it happened

15     throughout the war --

16        Q.   Let me interrupt you.  But, Witness, what you were telling the

17     Serbs was music to their ears.  You were telling them that the KLA were

18     behaving like animals.  They'd want to know everything, wouldn't they?

19     So why didn't you tell them about Qerqiz?  The suggestion I make to you

20     is because you hadn't been fed his name yet.  That's the truth, isn't it?

21        A.   I didn't know his name.  I knew the name of the other person from

22     Mollopole, Hoxha.  I had heard already the name of Celiku, of Voglushi,

23     of Tamuli.  These are names that I knew during my time in prison but that

24     I didn't not [as interpreted] mention on this occasion.  Because when

25     they asked who carried out that killing?  This and this person.  So that

Page 2552

 1     was it.

 2        Q.   Well, let's move to another name, shall we?  And we'll come back

 3     to what you say Qerqiz did at the end.

 4             (redacted), you've spoken about him already, haven't you?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   (redacted)

 7        (redacted)

 8        (redacted)

 9        (redacted)

10        (redacted)

11        (redacted)

12        (redacted)

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   Is he an enemy?

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't have bad or good with him.

17     I would say that it was more good things that we shared.

18             MR. TOPOLSKI:

19        Q.   Is he someone you would believe on his oath?

20        A.   I don't know what the reason would be for this.

21        Q.   I don't understand your answer.  If my question was not clear,

22     please tell me, I'll repeat it.  Is he someone you would believe on his

23     oath?

24        A.   Depends.  On what?

25        Q.   Oh yes, it certainly does.  Tell me something, have you ever worn

Page 2553

 1     a Serb police uniform?

 2        A.   Never.  I'm positive that I have never ever wore a Serb uniform.

 3        Q.   Can you think of any reason on earth why (redacted) in a signed

 4     statement to investigators of this Tribunal should say that you did?

 5        A.   This can happen because (redacted) was released from the prison.  And

 6     it could be the same thing as myself, for example, when I was at the

 7     office of Jasovic, was it like this?  Yes.  It could have happened with

 8     him the same thing.  If that is the case, then according to his words I

 9     can become Milosevic's deputy and -- let alone wear a Serb uniform.  As

10     for me, I have never worn a Serb uniform.  The only uniform I wore was

11     during my military service.

12        Q.   Let me tell you --

13        A.   From the 15th of December, 1985, to 16th of December --

14        Q.   Let me tell you, this statement that I've been looking at by

15     (redacted) wasn't taken by Dragan Jasovic, it was taken by Ole Lehtinen.  You

16     couldn't get any further from Dragan Jasovic than Ole Lehtinen, an

17     investigator of this Tribunal.  He wouldn't be pleased to hear that you

18     were comparing him to Mr. Jasovic, no, sir.  This witness said this to

19     Lehtinen in a signed statement, and I am asking you whether it is true.

20     He says:  "I often saw him wearing a uniform used by the Serb police."

21     Do you deny it?

22        A.   I categorically deny it because it never existed.

23        Q.   Turning to your identification of Qerqiz as the man who more than

24     once beat you.  That is the topic I want to deal with next, please.  Let

25     me give you this opportunity and ask you this question:  Is there any

Page 2554












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13   English transcripts.













Page 2555

 1     possibility of a mistake in your identification of Qerqiz?

 2        A.   No.  I absolutely am not mistaken here.

 3        Q.   Is it possible that your mind or your memory has played you

 4     false?

 5        A.   This is not about memory.  I have seen the person and I cannot

 6     add anything.  I've told what has happened with Qerqiz.  I have stated

 7     that I haven't seen him every day, and I have stated those times that I

 8     have seen him.

 9        Q.   Is it possible that you have truly convinced yourself that it was

10     him, particularly when family members have told you that is what they

11     believe, too?  Is that possible?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   Was it only here in this room two and a half days ago that you

14     remembered for the first time that Qerqiz had a beard?  Because you've

15     never said that before.

16        A.   I have said this before.

17        Q.   No, you haven't.

18        A.   Qerqiz at the time when I saw him, he didn't have a long beard.

19     He had a moustache and he had a beard resembling a person who did not

20     shave for a week or a month.  His hair was not very long and his beard,

21     as I said, was not very long.  It resembled someone who hasn't shaven for

22     a month.

23        Q.   A month.  And that's not something you've just remembered, that

24     was always the case, was it?  That memory of him, a man unshaven for at

25     least a month or about a month was always the way he looked to you.  Is

Page 2556

 1     that right?

 2        A.   This is how it was.

 3        Q.   Well, then why didn't you tell anyone that until two days ago?

 4        A.   I was not asked.  As I said, when I was asked, Who did you know?

 5     I would say, Qerqiz.  Who did you see?  Qerqiz's cousin, Salih.  He was

 6     in the same room with me, with (redacted), and with (redacted) --

 7        Q.   No, I'm not going to let you divert and I'm not going to let you

 8     get away with that answer I wasn't asked.  In your witness statement to

 9     this Tribunal you give your one and only description of this man and you

10     have him with a moustache and not a beard.  Now, I'm asking you why

11     didn't you tell them he had a beard?  Or have you just remembered it?  Or

12     have you found out since he had a beard?  What's the truth?

13        A.   No, I haven't realised it since now because I've seen persons who

14     have this long beard and I have seen shorter beards.  And when a person

15     has grown a beard for a week or two or a month then you don't call it a

16     beard but you call it a person who hasn't shaved.  So we usually say for

17     someone who has a beard if the beard is this long.  At that time I'm

18     saying that it resembles someone who had not shaved for a month; it's

19     approximate time.  This is what I saw.

20        Q.   Do you remember telling us yesterday I think -- no, when Mr.

21     Whiting was asking you questions, forgive me, that you were shown

22     photographs of the man you identified as Isak Musliu.  Do you remember

23     telling us about that?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   That was in --

Page 2557

 1        A.   I remember.

 2        Q.   That was in 2002.

 3        A.   I think so, yes.

 4        Q.   The fact is you'd been shown photographs before that, hadn't you?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   Yes, you had.  On the 17th of August, 2001, by someone called

 7     Kereakes, an investigator of this Tribunal showed you photographs of Isak

 8     Musliu.  So when you were identifying him in 2002, you'd already seen

 9     pictures of him, hadn't you?

10        A.   Yes, now I remember.  He showed me the photographs with the CCIU.

11     I have about five or six statements with the investigators.  Now I

12     remember which was the first and which was the second time.

13        Q.   Did you watch the coverage of this trial when it began on TV?

14     I'm sorry, on television?

15        A.   Yes, some parts.  There were parts that I could not follow but

16     that I wanted to follow but that I couldn't.

17        Q.   I'm going to ask you a bit that you could have followed.  Did you

18     hear my opening statement on behalf of Isak Musliu and see it?

19        A.   I don't know.  I later -- from other sessions, I realised that

20     you were Isak Musliu's lawyer.  As for the opening statement, I don't

21     remember whether I've seen it or not.

22        Q.   Do you remember me putting a photograph on the screen of Isak

23     Musliu wearing a beard standing behind Fatmir Limaj?  Did you see that

24     photograph on television?

25        A.   No, I don't remember seeing that photograph.  I've seen many

Page 2558

 1     things, but not what you are mentioning.

 2        Q.   Did anybody else in the world tell you they'd seen a picture from

 3     this trial of Isak Musliu with a beard?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   Are you sure about that?

 6        A.   Please explain it to me once again.  I don't understand who you

 7     are referring to when you say, Were you told by someone.

 8        Q.   By anyone.  Did anyone tell you they had seen a picture of Isak

 9     Musliu with a beard?  And does that explain why two days ago you

10     mentioned beard for the first time?

11        A.   No, nobody told me that.

12        Q.   So this man who you knew well could identify easily beat you and

13     beat you and beat you and didn't bother to put a mask on his face.  Is

14     that the case?

15        A.   I did not see a person wearing a mask.

16        Q.   You are of course someone who is prepared to name people, aren't

17     you?

18        A.   I don't understand you.

19        Q.   You gave the name of the third gunman to investigators, didn't

20     you?  Mr. Guy-Smith asked you about him this morning [sic].

21        A.   Which third person?  During the killing or at the prison or

22     where?

23        Q.   Yes, during the killing, the third executioner.

24        A.   [Previously translation continues]...

25        Q.   When you gave that statement to ICTY investigators which you did

Page 2559

 1     in 2002, did you stop and think for the moment about the possible

 2     consequences for that gentleman, that innocent gentleman, whose name you

 3     gave them?  Did you stop and think about that or didn't you care?

 4        A.   I've also considered -- I've always considered these facts

 5     because it's a very difficult thing to do and to say something for a

 6     person, and that person has not done that thing.  As for the third

 7     person, I did not know him.  I wasn't sure who he was.  I thought that

 8     the CCIU will conduct an investigation and find out who this person was

 9     and whether he participated in the killing or not.

10        Q.   Here is the question and answer from a statement made by you on

11     the 2nd of August, 2002, and please bear in mind what you've just told

12     Their Honours:  "I did not know him.  I wasn't sure who he was."

13             "Q.  -- Just a minute.  Wait for the question.

14             "Q.  As we know, you were in the group who was not released and

15     taken by three suspects to the mountains near Berisa.  The -- there these

16     suspects started to shoot you and kill most of your group.  One of the

17     suspects was Shala; the second was Murrizi.  And from the third suspect,

18     so far nothing was known," speaks the investigator.  "Today," he says,

19     "you've mentioned the third name of the suspect who took part in the

20     killing.  Why haven't you told the CCIU this name before?"

21             "A.  I just learned it from (redacted) about two months ago on the

22     phone."  And then you give the man's name, Nexhmedin Krashiqi from a

23     village I won't name.  It's not necessary.

24             You didn't hesitate to stick up a name simply because (redacted)

25     gave it to you.  That's what you do to get your revenge, isn't it?

Page 2560

 1        A.   Why do you say the 2nd August, 2002?  I don't get it.

 2        Q.   Because that's the date of the interview I've just been reading

 3     from.

 4        A.   On 2nd of August, 2002, you said?

 5        Q.   Yes.  It's in front of you.  It's in your right hand.  You're

 6     holding it.  You put up a name simply because (redacted) gave it to you;

 7     that's what you do, isn't it?

 8        A.   No, it wasn't (redacted) who gave me the name.

 9        Q.   Oh, does that matter?  Does that really matter?  This is an

10     innocent man you're accusing of a brutal murder.  Don't you care?

11             MR. WHITING:  Your Honour, I'm going to object to the form of the

12     question.  There's nothing to establish whether this person is innocent

13     or guilty or who knows.  He's providing a name, providing information,

14     but characterising it that way misstates the evidence.

15             MR. TOPOLSKI:  I'm sorry, characterising this man as innocent

16     doesn't misstate anything he is.  The nature of the answer, I would

17     respectfully submit, is nothing more nor less than an allegation of

18     murder.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Whiting's point is that your question went on

20     to suggest that the man named was innocent, and he objects that there's

21     nothing to establish guilt or innocence.

22             MR. TOPOLSKI:  Your Honour, we are all innocent until any of us

23     are proven guilty in a properly constituted court of law.  I don't think

24     I'm unentitled to describe this gentleman who is out there in the world

25     and perhaps even listening as we speak as an innocent man.  No court has

Page 2561

 1     found him otherwise.

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  You can certainly suggest, I expect, although I

 3     don't know the facts, that he's ever been charged with this by anybody.

 4             MR. TOPOLSKI:  He's been interviewed.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  I know nothing of that --

 6             MR. TOPOLSKI:  I do because I asked Mr. Whiting that

 7     precautionary question this very afternoon.  If Your Honour thinks the

 8     language is too flamboyant, then I take it no further.  But in my

 9     respectful submission, it wasn't.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  Well, I think your point's been made.

11             MR. TOPOLSKI:  Very well.  I'll move on.

12        Q.   The fact of the matter is, sir, that you throughout have been

13     very heavily reliant, haven't you, on information other people have given

14     you.  That's the case, isn't it?

15        A.   The names that I have seen in the prison I relied on myself

16     because I was an eyewitness.  With exception of Qerqiz, the discovery of

17     Shala's name and others according to information (redacted) helped me

18     with to find the assassins.  According to Qerqiz I didn't need anything

19     to say anything about him.  Prior to the war I heard from people whom he

20  knows very well.  He has worked with them, they are in KLA.  They are (redacted)

21     (redacted).  As to Shala, Celik, Murrizi, I heard from (redacted)

22     because I was interested to find out the truth.  This is how it was.

23     Because I couldn't go anywhere to ask for Shala.  When I went to Kosova,

24     I had to think twice before I went somewhere because I knew that imminent

25     for me.

Page 2562












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Page 2563

 1             MR. TOPOLSKI:  Could we go into private session for one moment,

 2     please?

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  Private session.

 4                           [Private session]

 5  (redacted)

 6  (redacted)

 7  (redacted)

 8  (redacted)

 9  (redacted)

10  (redacted)

11  (redacted)

12  (redacted)

13  (redacted)

14  (redacted)

15  (redacted)

16  (redacted)

17  (redacted)

18  (redacted)

19  (redacted)

20  (redacted)

21  (redacted)

22  (redacted)

23  (redacted)

24  (redacted)

25  (redacted)

Page 2564

 1  (redacted)

 2  (redacted)

 3  (redacted)

 4  (redacted)

 5  (redacted)

 6  (redacted)

 7  (redacted)

 8  (redacted)

 9  (redacted)

10  (redacted)

11  (redacted)

12  (redacted)

13  (redacted)

14  (redacted)

15                           [Open session]

16             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.

17             MR. TOPOLSKI:

18        Q.   Sir, there's just a few more questions that I have for you and I

19     promise that I shall finish well within the allotted time this evening.

20     And I hope, therefore, that subject to Mr. Whiting's questions of you

21     this will be the last day of your evidence.

22             When you gave evidence to us two days ago, you told us - and I'm

23     looking at day 24, the uncorrected version, at page 11 of the transcript

24     dealing with Lapusnik -- or rather, Musliu.  I'm sorry.  You said that in

25     late April or beginning of May that you heard that the leader of the

Page 2565

 1     Rance point was Isak Musliu.

 2             First of all, do you recall telling us that?

 3        A.   Yes, I recall.

 4        Q.   Is that still your evidence?

 5        A.   This is what we heard.  We heard of him as being the person in

 6     charge of that point.  This is what people from (redacted) or Racak said,

 7     that the point was formed and that this man was the person in charge of

 8     it.  I didn't see the actual point and the actual person on the site.  I

 9     heard it from people in the village and from Racak village.

10        Q.   The reason I ask the question is because I suggest, and it is my

11     client's case, that there was no point at Rance until at least the 26th

12     of June.  Are you prepared to accept that or do you disagree with me?

13        A.   I cannot prove it.  I just heard people when they came in the

14     night.  They were coming from Rance.  It was end of April/early May.

15     This is what I heard then.  But in fact I didn't see the point with my

16     own eyes.  If you are asking me what people said during that time, this

17     is what they said, even LDK activists said that, not just ordinary

18     people.

19        Q.   I understand entirely where you're getting your information from.

20     Thank you.

21             What I also want to suggest to you - and this may also have been

22     the subject of gossip in the village shop and elsewhere - is that it was

23     not until at least early August that Isak Musliu, Qerqiz, became a

24     commander.  And the commander he became commander of was the 121st

25     Brigade, formed in August.  Now, did you hear gossip to that effect?

Page 2566

 1        A.   No, I didn't hear anything about that.  I don't know what role he

 2     played in the command, but I know what he did in the prison.  When he

 3     came there, Shala obeyed to his orders.  When Qerqizi was not there,

 4     Murrizi was under Shala's orders.  As to Qerqizi's role, what command he

 5     led, this I don't know.

 6        Q.   You told us on oath two days ago that you knew Musliu, that you

 7     knew him for a long time, that you knew his family.  Do you mean to tell

 8     this Court that before the war you have had conversations with Isak

 9     Musliu?

10        A.   We met in the street.  We greeted each other.  The road, it

11     crosses to his village.  It was just normal acquaintance of mine.

12        Q.   I suggest he was no such thing.  I suggest you have never spoken,

13     you have never met.  But I do suggest you may well have known him and

14     what he looked like because he was well-known in his village and in his

15     area.  Do you care to comment on that or not?

16        A.   It is true that I knew him.  I knew him by sight, which family he

17     came from, which village he was from.  And as I said, we greeted each

18     other like every ordinary people.  This is normal in Kosova.

19        Q.   I summarise the position in this way, I hope carefully enough for

20     everyone's benefit:  I suggest that you knew of him but you did not know

21     him.  I suggest that is the case.  Do you agree?

22        A.   No, I do not agree with you because I knew him before the war.

23     When I first saw him, I knew him as Qerqizi.  After the war, I also know

24     him and now I know him, too.

25        Q.   I turn now to the considerable amount of evidence you have given

Page 2567

 1     regarding his activities, regarding you and others, in the camp.  And I

 2     can take this very shortly indeed in the light of the suggestions I made

 3     to you getting on for three hours ago.  Qerqiz or Isak Musliu was not at

 4     or in that camp at any time, certainly at no time when you were there.

 5     I'm suggesting to you that you have made a terrible mistake.  I hope my

 6     suggestion is clear.  Do you follow it?

 7        A.   Yes, I follow you very well.

 8        Q.   I also take it from the evidence you've given over the last two

 9     and a half days that you don't agree with me; you've not made any

10     mistake.  Is that what you would say?

11        A.   I have told you what I have seen.  But during my witness here I

12     may have made any -- some mistakes, but not regarding Qerqizi, what I saw

13     him doing.  I may have erred about the dates.  I may have not been

14     accurate about the dates.  But when it comes to Qerqizi, I have not made

15     a mistake.

16        Q.   I understand what you say, but you see, we know about the dates

17     because there is evidence either end of the period.  We can track.  We

18     know you were with the Serbs on the 18th of July.  We know that no one

19     could have been in the camp after the 25th/26th of July.  That is the

20     period that we can concentrate on, those seven or eight days.  And I put

21     to you, very clearly I hope, that he was simply not there, not even at

22     Lapusnik at his fighting point.  You say I'm wrong.  You say he was

23     there.  That's the case, isn't it?

24        A.   I'm saying that I saw him there and that he did to me what I

25     said.  Whether you say you have been with him somewhere, this we can see.

Page 2568

 1     I am telling you, I have been there.  I have seen.  You are saying -- you

 2     are putting to me that he has not been there.

 3        Q.   I am suggesting to you, sir, that you genuinely believe he was

 4     there, but he wasn't.  That's what I'm suggesting to you.  That's the

 5     heart of it.  You genuinely think it's true, but it wasn't true.  Is that

 6     a possibility, yes or no?

 7        A.   I trust my eyes, sir.  Some small part of my evidence was based

 8     on what I heard, but the bulk of it was based on my own experience.

 9        Q.   Does your family have any history with Isak Musliu, any animosity

10     between any members of your family and him that you're aware of?

11        A.   Not that I know of, sir, with the exception of Lapusnik.  But

12     according to my family history, (redacted) have been getting on

13     very well with themselves.  I never heard anything bad said about them

14     from my parents or grandparents.

15             MR. TOPOLSKI:  Could we go into private session, please.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  Private session.

17                           [Private session]

18  (redacted)

19  (redacted)

20  (redacted)

21  (redacted)

22  (redacted)

23  (redacted)

24  (redacted)

25  (redacted)

Page 2569











11    Page 2569 redacted. Private session.















Page 2570












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 2571

 1  (redacted).

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           Re-examined by Mr. Whiting:

 4        Q.   Witness, I will be very brief.  There are very few questions that

 5     I need to ask you.  You testified that you first saw Fatmir Limaj on

 6     television in December 2000 or January 2001.  Do you remember that --

 7     testifying to that?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Now, can you tell us when you saw Fatmir Limaj on television in

10     December 2000 or January 2001, did you see any other leaders in Kosovo on

11     television?

12        A.   Yes, I've seen other leaders, quite a lot, in the press and on

13     TV.

14        Q.   For example, did you see Jakup Krasniqi on television?

15        A.   Yes.  Before I saw Jakup Krasniqi on a foreign television, I've

16     seen Ramush Haradinaj explaining to foreigners the entrance of troops in

17     Kosova.  After him I saw Fatmir Limaj, then Jakup Krasniqi, then Hashim

18     Thaqi, then Agim Ceku, Ram Buja, and some other names who were in the KLA

19     leadership.

20        Q.   And let me just focus for a moment on Jakup Krasniqi.  Before you

21     were kidnapped and taken to Lapusnik, had you heard his name?

22        A.   Yes.  Before going to Lapusnik, I had heard the name of Jakup

23     Krasniqi as the KLA spokesperson.

24        Q.   And did you hear anything else about Jakup Krasniqi, about where

25     he was based?

Page 2572

 1        A.   Yes.  At that time it was said that the capital of Kosovo at that

 2     time was Malisevo because it was a liberated territory.  And it's then

 3     that I heard that Jakup Krasniqi was speaking in the quality of a

 4     spokesperson, a KLA spokesperson.

 5        Q.   Now, with respect to those other figures that you've mentioned,

 6     Jakup Krasniqi, Agim Ceku, Ram Buja, and Hashim Thaqi, and Ramush

 7     Haradinaj, have you ever said that you've seen any of them at Lapusnik?

 8        A.   No.  I've never seen them there.  I've never said that and I've

 9     never seen them.

10        Q.   How about on the walk to the Berisa Mountains?  Have you ever

11     told anybody you've seen any of those people on the walk up to the Berisa

12     Mountains lead up to the execution?

13        A.   Yes.  At the time when the investigators were taking my statement

14     step by step, how we were kidnapped and how did you get to the prison, so

15     I explained to them that as we were going uphill Shala said that

16     Commander Celiku was coming and that he assigned a soldier to Shala.

17     This is what I said.

18        Q.   But what about the these other figures, Jakup Krasniqi, Agim

19     Ceku, Ram Buja, Hashim Thaqi, Ramush Haradinaj?  Did you see them on the

20     walk to Berisa?

21        A.   No.  I did not see them during the journey.  As for Ram Buja,

22     when I was searching for (redacted) I saw him once in Krajmirovce.

23        Q.   Now, the lawyer for Isak Musliu has suggested that you've made a

24     mistake in telling us that you saw Isak Musliu in Lapusnik on two

25     occasions.  Let me just ask you a few questions about the two occasions

Page 2573

 1     that you saw Isak Musliu at Lapusnik.  With respect to the first one when

 2     he came in and asked you your name, was that during the day or was that

 3     at night?

 4        A.   It was during the day, at noon.  And my -- I answered with my

 5     full name.  And he then replied with my short name, as I'm called

 6     shortly, there.

 7        Q.   Were you face to face with him when you had this conversation?

 8        A.   Maybe a metre in between, maybe less than a metre.  I did not

 9     measure it, but he couldn't have been further than a metre.

10        Q.   And was he wearing a mask?

11        A.   No, he didn't have a mask.

12        Q.   The second time you saw him when he came in and ordered you into

13     the other room and beat you, was that during the day or was that at

14     night?

15        A.   This was also during the day.

16        Q.   Did you get a clear look at him?

17        A.   Yes.  As I can see the three gentleman in front of me now.

18        Q.   Sir, I want you to look around the courtroom and tell me, do you

19     see Isak Musliu, Qerqiz, here in the courtroom?

20        A.   Yes, I see him.  He's the first on the left.

21        Q.   And are you certain that this is the man who you saw as you've

22     described in the prison camp in Lapusnik on two occasions?  Are you sure?

23        A.   I'm sure that this person was there on the first and on the

24     second day.

25        Q.   Now, I'm just going to ask you one last question.  You recall you

Page 2574

 1     testified about -- well, let me just -- actually it's going to be two or

 2     three more questions.  Just so the record is clear, first of all I'd ask

 3     that the record reflect that the witness identified the defendant Isak

 4     Musliu.

 5             But just to make the record complete in this regard, the person

 6     that you knew as Shala in the prison that you have testified about as

 7     Shala in the prison at Lapusnik, do you see him in the courtroom here

 8     today?

 9        A.   Yes, he is in the middle, between Isak Musliu and Fatmir Limaj.

10     It's the Shala who was in Lapusnik.

11        Q.   And the man who was referred -- called Celiku and referred to as

12     Celiku, do you see him here, the man that you saw on the march to Berisa

13     speaking to Shala?  Do you see him in the courtroom today?

14        A.   Yes, I see him here.  He is Fatmir Limaj.  We saw him that day

15     during the journey, and he is on the right.

16        Q.   If the record could reflect that the witness has identified all

17     three accused.

18             And, sir, are you sure that these are the men that you saw, as

19     you have testified about?

20        A.   If these were not the persons, I wouldn't have testified.  If I

21     did not know them for sure, I wouldn't be here today.

22             MR. WHITING:  I have no further questions.  Thank you.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  Sir, you'll be pleased to know that that is the

24     end of your questioning.  You've completed your evidence.  The Chamber is

25     grateful for the assistance that you have given us and thanks you for

Page 2575

 1     coming here to give evidence to the Tribunal.  You are free to go back to

 2     your place of living.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  If you would just wait a moment while the ...

 5                           [The witness withdrew]

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Whiting.

 7             MR. WHITING:  Your Honour, the next witness we sent home because

 8     we actually have something else to do.  We have a number of expert

 9     reports to put into evidence on agreement with Defence counsel.  I should

10     -- I don't know if we should wait for the curtains to go up or how should

11     we do this.

12             JUDGE PARKER:  Perhaps a volunteer will help.

13             MR. WHITING:  I don't know what we would do without him.

14             MR. TOPOLSKI:  Your Honour, could I just ask is it my learned

15     friend's intention to go through these?  I don't have them in court and I

16     would need to have them if my learned friend is going to go through them

17     in any way.

18             MR. WHITING:  No.  I was not going to go through them.  I was

19     going to have one or two sentences describing each one.

20             MR. TOPOLSKI:  Okay.

21             MR. WHITING:  That's all.  This is the extent of what I was going

22     to describe.  It fits on one page.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  That seems manageable, Mr. Topolski.

24             MR. TOPOLSKI:  Yes.  I'm too tired to go and get any more files

25     now.

Page 2576

 1             MR. WHITING:  I have to get out of the habit of turning this on

 2     and off.

 3             Your Honour, these are a series of expert reports which the

 4     Defence has agreed may go in without cross-examination pursuant to 94 bis

 5     (C), though the first one I'm going to put before the Court falls a

 6     little bit outside of the description that I've just provided and that's

 7     the statement of Judy Thomas.  I have them tabbed, so I don't know if

 8     it's in your binder 1 or 2.  It's in your binder 2, Mr. Younis tells me.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, we have that.

10             MR. WHITING:  Thank you.  And for the record the statement is

11     dated -- is from the 28th, 29th, and 30th of August, 2003, and it is ERN

12     U003-6888 to U003-6946.  At request of the Defence, certain paragraphs

13     have been redacted, paragraphs 13, 14, 43, and 44.  This statement

14     describes the exhumation of the bodies at Berisa in August of 2001,

15     following information that was provided by the CCIU investigator who

16     interviewed the last witness, and the recovery of eight bodies, clothing,

17     bullets, and shell casings.  Attached to the statement are numerous

18     exhibits concerning the exhumation, including graphs, charts, notes and

19     photographs of the exhumation.  In addition, those exhibits contain

20     information concerning a second follow-up exhumation that occurred at the

21     same site on 11 April 2002 when a ninth body was found with clothing.

22     And just so the record is complete, I'm going to just read the ERN

23     numbers of the various exhibits, the ranges.  There are about seven

24     ranges.  They are all 0323, so it's -- I can just save everyone's time by

25     reading the second numbers.  1847 to 1928; 1941 to 1955; 1966 to 1968;

Page 2577

 1     2015 to 2015; 2034 to 2034; 2045 to 2067; 2391 to 2398; 2424 to 2570.

 2     And I believe at the beginning of the first binder you probably have a

 3     chart which is what I'm reading from which gives these ERN numbers, but I

 4     just wanted it to be in the record.

 5             Now, this statement and the exhibits concerning the two

 6     exhumations and the recovery of the nine bodies strictly speaking -- or

 7     not even strictly speaking does not -- is not an expert report and does

 8     not fall under that rule.  However, we have agreed with the Defence that

 9     it should be moved into evidence and I would submit that it can be moved

10     into evidence pursuant to 89 (F) --

11             JUDGE PARKER:  Do I correctly understand that the whole of the

12     two volumes are really the statement of Judy Thomas and the exhibits to

13     that?

14             MR. WHITING:  Not the whole of the two volumes, no.  That's just

15     what's behind the tab of Judy Thomas.  That's all that pertains to that.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

17             MR. WHITING:  That is what I've just described --

18             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  So is that the whole of volume 2?

19             MR. WHITING:  Yes.  I'm sorry, I have them all in one volume.

20             JUDGE PARKER:  So you're now moving into evidence by consent the

21     whole of volume 2 --

22             MR. WHITING:  That's correct, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  Being the statement of Judy Thomas, August 2003.

24             MR. WHITING:  And the attached exhibits.

25             MR. GUY-SMITH:  And for purposes of the record, assuming that the

Page 2578

 1     whole of volume 2 is that which Mr. Whiting purports it to be, and I have

 2     no reason to believe otherwise, we of course agree.  There has been a

 3     fair amount of work done in this matter and we have tried to figure out

 4     those ways that will save substantial time to the Court without

 5     jeopardising the rights of any of the parties involved.

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  I'm grateful to that.  This statement of Judy

 7     Thomas and its enclosures or attachments or exhibits will be received as

 8     an exhibit.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Prosecution Exhibit P110.

10             MR. WHITING:  Now I suppose we move to volume 1.  And I would

11     draw the Court's attention first to the expert report of Jose Pablo

12     Baraybar.  It should be tabbed as such, Jose Pablo Baraybar.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.

14             MR. WHITING:  This report -- this is an expert report of Jose

15     Pablo Baraybar dated 4 January 2004, and an addendum dated -- I'm sorry,

16     I think it's just dated January 2004, not 4 -- just January 2004.  And

17     then an addendum dated December 2004.  The first report analyses the

18     remains of the nine bodies that were found at Berisa and provides

19     information concerning the cause of death and injuries to those bodies.

20     The addendum provides similar information concerning four additional

21     bodies, the body of Ajet Gashi and three additional bodies that were

22     exhumed from a site in the Stimlje municipality near the village of

23     Rance.  And the Prosecution would move the admission of these two expert

24     reports by the same person pursuant to Rule 94 bis (C).

25             And I should say that there are some exhibits which are also

Page 2579

 1     attached to these reports that are included that pertain to the reports.

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  The expert report of January 2004, its addendum

 3     with exhibits will together be received as an exhibit.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Prosecution Exhibit P111.

 5             MR. WHITING:  I would next draw the Court's attention to what's

 6     behind the tab for Daniel Vanek.  There are three expert reports from

 7     Daniel Vanek from ICMP.  They're dated 20 May 2004; 12 December 2004; and

 8     also the third one, same date, 12 December 2004.  Again these appear on

 9     the chart that is at the beginning of the first binder, including the ERN

10     numbers.  These reports together provide a DNA analysis setting forth

11     matches to specified degrees of certainty, and it's specified within the

12     report, the degrees of certainty of the matches, of eight of the bodies

13     recovered at Berisa and determines them to be Emin Emini, Ibush Hamza,

14     Hysri Hajrizi, Shaban Hoti, Safet Hyseni, Bashkim Rashiti, Lutfi

15     Xhemshiti, and Shyqyri Zymeri.

16             At a later time the Prosecution expects submitting additional

17     reports subject to further agreement with the Defence concerning the

18     identity of the ninth body recovered from Berisa and two of the bodies

19     that were recovered from the exhumation site at Rance, which I referred

20     to earlier.  I would move into evidence those three reports at this time

21     of Daniel Vanek and ask that they be given a number.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  The three reports of Daniel Vanek will be received

23     into evidence.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  They will be Prosecution Exhibit P112.

25             MR. WHITING:  Finally, Your Honour, I would draw your attention

Page 2580

 1     to the last tab which is a expert report of Wim Kerkhoff, a ballistics

 2     expert in Holland.  There's an expert report dated the 29th of October,

 3     2003, and a supplemental report dated the 15th of December, 2004.  This

 4     report and the supplemental analyse the bullets and shell casings that

 5     were found at the exhumation site at Berisa.  And the report provides

 6     information regarding the number and types of weapons that were used to

 7     fire the bullets and shell casings.  And the countries of origin of the

 8     ammunition, namely Albania, China, and in one instance East Germany.  I

 9     would move that this be given a number pursuant to 94 bis (C).

10             JUDGE PARKER:  The expert report and the supplemental report of

11     Wim Kerkhoff will be received.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Prosecution Exhibit Number P113.

13             MR. WHITING:  Thank you, Your Honour.  That's all from the

14     Prosecution for this evening.  We have another witness who will be ready

15     to testify tomorrow morning at 9.00.

16             MR. TOPOLSKI:  Your Honour, may I be permitted an obsequious

17     observation, please?

18             JUDGE PARKER:  Do we have to have one of those?

19             MR. TOPOLSKI:  Yes, because I may get a meal out of it.  What has

20     just occurred is very much at the hands of Mr. Guy-Smith, for all of that

21     evidence really relates to aspects of the case indeed in relation to

22     which my client was not even indicted, but nonetheless one has to look at

23     it.  But what Mr. Guy-Smith, by what he has been able to agree through

24     the good offices of Mr. Whiting and his colleagues, by my simple

25     estimation has probably saved three or four weeks of court time.  And I

Page 2581

 1     would wish to publicly thank him for that and I think the Tribunal would

 2     wish to join me in that.

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  The Tribunal appreciates your information and the

 4     effort put in by counsel to reach agreement, including those who are

 5     happy, though they're not directly affected, to join in.

 6             Very well.  We will now adjourn until tomorrow morning at 9.00.

 7                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.47 p.m.,

 8                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 28th day of

 9                           January, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.