Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3448

 1                           Tuesday, 15 February 2005

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

 5                           [The witness entered court]

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  Good afternoon, sir.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  If I could remind you, Mr. Krasniqi, of the

 9     affirmation you made at the beginning of your evidence, which still

10     applies.  I think Mr. Topolski has a few more questions.

11             Mr. Topolski.

12             MR. TOPOLSKI:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13                           WITNESS:  JAKUP KRASNIQI [Resumed]

14                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

15                           Cross-examined by Mr. Topolski: [Continued]

16        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Krasniqi.

17        A.   Good afternoon.

18        Q.   Yesterday at the end of the session you gave us a detailed

19     comment from a paragraph I read to you of a witness, Susan Pedersen.  To

20     lead on to the next topic, which is detention and arrests, I wonder if I

21     could just visit again that paragraph or part of it.  What she says, Mr.

22     Krasniqi, is that she and the organisation of which she was a part got

23     the impression that abductions or arrests committed by the KLA were - and

24     these are the words I want to focus on if I may - "systematic,

25     preplanned, and organised."

Page 3449

 1             Now, Mr. Krasniqi, you've given us a detailed response to this,

 2     but I just want to ask you this question:  Were you ever a part of or a

 3     party to any conversation or meeting with any KLA colleague in which a

 4     system, a plan, or the organisation of detentions or arrests of innocent

 5     civilians was discussed?

 6        A.   No.  There has been no meeting of such a nature and we never

 7     dealt with such things.

 8        Q.   And in an attempt, Mr. Krasniqi, to lay a ghost for the future so

 9     is there will be no misunderstanding about it, when you say "there has

10     been no meeting of such a nature," may I broaden it, please, to ask you

11     to be clear whether there was ever any discussion or conversation as

12     between you and colleagues regarding a system, a plan, an organisation?

13        A.   I said no and I don't have anything to add to it.

14        Q.   Thank you very much.  That leads us on to the third of the topics

15     I want to talk to you about, and it's a very brief topic, Mr. Krasniqi,

16     and it's detention and arrests.  And here one is talking about civilians,

17     non-combatants.  You'll recollect the distinction that you agreed with

18     yesterday.  Was it regarded amongst the KLA as being legitimate to stop,

19     detain, and question people during the war?

20        A.   Of course.  During the war, people have been stopped.  For

21     example, journalists who came to the areas where the KLA was there and

22     they have been stopped.  It was necessary to stop them and ask them why

23     they came there.  There might have been a case or two when a Serb citizen

24     might have entered our areas.  And after they have been asked questions

25     they were released.  And this happened only in our areas, but they were

Page 3450

 1     released.  But still, I would like to say that the main roads were still

 2     under Serb control.

 3        Q.   Yes.  We'll come to that under the fifth of the topics, which is

 4     territorial control.  But can I move on, then, to the next topic, which

 5     is structure.  And, Mr. Krasniqi, what I have in mind to ask you is one

 6     or two questions regarding structure and organisation of the KLA up to

 7     the end of August 1998.  The reason I have chosen that date or month is

 8     because I suggest, and we have had other evidence to this effect, that

 9     brigades and battalions were formed or began to be formed at the end of

10     the August of 1998.  Do you agree with that?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Well, then let's please look together, can we, at elements of

13     structure and organisation up to, but not including, that

14     re-organisation.  First of all, I imagine you would agree with the

15     proposition that what the KLA was certainly up until then could properly

16     be described as a guerrilla army.  Do you agree with that?

17        A.   I already said that until March and April of 1998, the KLA was a

18     guerrilla army and then it expanded.  There was mobilisation of people,

19     recruitment, and for some time we had a voluntary army.  And the General

20     Staff had the responsibility to organise this voluntary army.  From April

21     it was a voluntary army, from April till the end of August or the

22     beginning of September.  So it was mainly a voluntary army.

23        Q.   Mr. Krasniqi, I take issue with that last answer or parts of it.

24     I suggest that the KLA was never anything other than a voluntary army.

25     There was never conscription into the KLA at any stage, was there?

Page 3451

 1        A.   When I say "mobilisation" I don't mean it in the sense of

 2     conscription.  I explained in the previous sessions, it was -- by

 3     "mobilisation" I mean voluntary mobilisation, solidarity with the fight

 4     that was being waged by the soldiers of the KLA.

 5        Q.   I follow that.  But at the beginning of that last answer you said

 6     "I had already said until March and April of 1998 the KLA was a guerrilla

 7     army and then it expanded," and then you went on to deal with

 8     mobilisation.  In terms of the tactics of the KLA up to, including, and,

 9     I suggest, beyond the battle at Rahovec we were talking about yesterday,

10     it was employing very much, was it not, guerrilla-type military tactics,

11     hit-and-run, that sort of thing.  Do you agree?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   It had, did it not - and again we are still in this period,

14     please, up to the end of August 1998 - it had what I've described and I

15     think you have elsewhere as a horizontal command structure.  Do you agree

16     with that?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   It had no rigid hierarchical structure, did it?

19        A.   Of course it didn't.  It was not possible to have one.

20        Q.   Indeed it suffered, if that's the right word, certainly in this

21     period if not beyond it with perhaps one if not more than one separate

22     internal faction, did it not?  And I have in mind FARK, F-A-R-K.  Do you

23     agree with that?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Mr. Krasniqi, you've stressed to us more than once that your role

Page 3452

 1     and function was political and not military.  I don't want to waste yours

 2     or anyone else's time.  Are you able to assist us if I was to ask you

 3     questions about the early creation of firing positions, units, points,

 4     and so on and so forth?  Can you assist the Tribunal on those matters or

 5     are you not able to do so, given your experience?

 6        A.   I think the question must be clearer.

 7        Q.   Yes, you're quite right.  I was just trying to see if we could

 8     deal with the topic together.  Let me ask you the question and see if you

 9     can help us.  In this period we are talking about, members of the KLA

10     would gather together, wouldn't they, in villages predominantly, in order

11     to protect them from Serb assault.  That would be the position in the

12     early days, would it not?

13        A.   You mean the early days after March?

14        Q.   Yes, I do.  That period, March, April, May, June.

15        A.   Yes.  It was mainly a voluntary organisation of people, or people

16     who wanted to fight for the freedom of the country and the people.

17        Q.   Yes.

18        A.   And this willingness to fight grew and at that time some kind of

19     organisation began and the village's guards were established and some of

20     them were also armed with hunting rifles, as I have already mentioned.

21        Q.   Yes, indeed.  And we've heard other evidence about that.  Of

22     course one of the situations that was being confronted then, was it not,

23     was that some of the people who came to volunteer had some military

24     experience, but many did not.  That was the situation in those early

25     days, was it not, Mr. Krasniqi?

Page 3453

 1        A.   That's how it was.  In the first days, the early days, and the

 2     last days.

 3        Q.   Yes.  So a group of men gathering together to, in my example, say

 4     protect a village would make their own decisions on the ground, would

 5     they not, as to the taking up of defensive positions and so on in a very

 6     informal, very fluid way, I suggest, Mr. Krasniqi.  Is that the position

 7     as you understood it?

 8        A.   That's how it was, and that's why the General Staff had to commit

 9     itself to organise these people in a better form of organisation.

10        Q.   Yes.  Communication within a group of KLA men even within a

11     village and certainly communication with KLA operators in other villages

12     was primitive to say the least of it, wasn't it?

13        A.   I don't know whether primitive is the right word to use, but the

14     communication was based on the willingness of people to fight against the

15     occupiers and their police force.

16        Q.   Leaders of these groups emerged; they were not appointed from on

17     high.  That is right, isn't it?  They emerged usually from the groups

18     themselves, the men who ended up leading those groups I mean.  Do you

19     agree with that?

20        A.   That's how it was.  In the majority of the cases, we have

21     followed how people were chosen in those positions, but it was on the

22     basis of the contribution they had given.

23        Q.   Can I move on then to the next topic, please, from structure, and

24     it's territorial control of the KLA or lack of it.  Again, I'm dealing

25     with the same period, to the end of August 1998, Mr. Krasniqi.  Yesterday

Page 3454

 1     you were good enough to concede that your claim in the Der Speigel

 2     interview that the KLA controlled 40 per cent of the country was not

 3     accurate.  You remember telling us that yesterday?

 4        A.   Yes, I remember that.

 5        Q.   Dealing with the ability of the KLA in this period to communicate

 6     one unit to another, one of the problems, was it not, was that units of

 7     the KLA - before the formation of the brigades and battalions and so on,

 8     so before the end of August 1998 - one of the major problems was many of

 9     these units were very far apart geographically.  Do you agree with that?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Indeed, yesterday -- you may remember answering Mr. Whiting's

12     questions about International Red Cross documents and you may recall

13     telling us that you had to send these documents where you could via

14     couriers, your word, or use the communique as a method of attempting to

15     communicate the contents of these documents to KLA fighters.  Have I

16     accurately summarised the position, Mr. Krasniqi, as you indicated it to

17     us yesterday?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   I use the word, and I took me up on it a few moments ago,

20     primitive communication systems.  Again, this goes under the heading of

21     territorial control.  Radio communication.  Again focusing on this

22     period, that was, was it not, limited as between units or groups of the

23     KLA at this stage.  Is that the case?

24        A.   It was very limited.

25        Q.   Did there become in due course places that were regarded as

Page 3455

 1     centres for radio communication of the KLA?

 2        A.   There was such a centre, yes, placed in Kosmac mountain in

 3     Drenica.

 4        Q.   And in the Kosmac mountain in Drenica, were there broadcasts, as

 5     it were, by a radio station?  Is that what it was in effect?

 6        A.   No.  It was a radio walkie-talkie system, but the mountain was

 7     very high.  They -- the signal went to other peaks of mountains and

 8     that's how the communication was established in all the cases when the

 9     Serbian army and police attacked.

10        Q.   And, for example, the call to arms, the call for assistance to

11     Rahovec came from that radio transmitter, did it, in mid-July 1998?  I

12     take but one example.

13        A.   As -- as I said before, we did not have a radio.  We used the

14     system that the police army -- that the police and the army -- Serb

15     police and army used.  And sometimes they also intercepted and blocked

16     this form of communication.

17        Q.   I follow.  But would it have been from that radio base in Kosmac

18     that you've described that the call for assistance to Rahovec would have

19     come, Mr. Krasniqi, or cannot you say?

20        A.   Yes.  Rahovec is situated in the Bjeshket e Zatriqit.  There were

21     people there who had walkie-talkies and they could have a connection to

22     Kosmac and they were aware of what was going on in -- within KLA.

23        Q.   While we're on Rahovec, I wonder if I could go back to something

24     you were talking about yesterday, again when Mr. Whiting was asking you

25     questions.  And I'm looking, if anyone wants to go back, to page 47 and

Page 3456

 1     48 of the transcript yesterday.  You told us about the fighting at

 2     Rahovec and you linked it to fighting elsewhere.  What you were telling

 3     us yesterday, Mr. Krasniqi, was that we, that is to say the General Staff

 4     of the KLA, did not authorise the attack because you lacked weapons

 5     necessary to the liberation of these towns.  I want to see if I have

 6     understood it correctly.  Are you saying that the beginning of the

 7     fighting in Rahovec was spontaneous and unauthorised as far as the

 8     General Staff was concerned?  Is that what you're saying about it?

 9        A.   Yes, that's what I said.

10        Q.   If I were to add the adjective to that list of spontaneous and

11     unauthorised as also reckless on the part of the KLA at that stage, Mr.

12     Krasniqi, would you agree with that?

13        A.   I agree, yes.

14        Q.   And remind us, please:  What was the date of the beginning of

15     this battle that we are about at Rahovec, as best as you can recollect

16     it?

17        A.   I can't give you an exact date.

18        Q.   Will I be right in suggesting to you that it was sometime in the

19     middle of July, 16th, 17th, or 18th, thereabouts?

20        A.   It must have been the middle of July, but I can't remember the

21     exact dates.

22        Q.   Very well.  We can move on to the last of the topics I want to

23     deal with, Mr. Krasniqi, and I'm sure you don't remember what it is, so I

24     will remind you.  It is Serbian state security.  Now, I want to put three

25     propositions to you regarding Serbian state security.  And I ask you

Page 3457

 1     these questions both as -- in your capacity as you became a spokesman of

 2     the KLA but also, of course, as a citizen of Kosova and as a internee, as

 3     it were, for a long period of time at one stage of your life.  The first

 4     proposition is this, Mr. Krasniqi:  Do you agree that Serbian state

 5     security apparatus was a sophisticated machine?

 6        A.   It was, yes.

 7        Q.   Do you agree that it was very well-equipped and very well

 8     supported financially by Belgrade?

 9        A.   Yes, it was, both the army, the police, and the secret service.

10     Belgrade was a kind of superpower in all those respects in the Balkans.

11        Q.   It was - and of course I focus as it were on its secret service

12     wing - it was, my third proposition, very experienced in dealing with its

13     own population, was it not?

14        A.   Yes.  They had long experience of that.

15        Q.   Mr. Krasniqi, I wonder if we can attempt to compare it with

16     another well-known organisation that operated until 1989 in Eastern

17     Germany, the Stasi, I have in mind.  The Stasi, I suggest, was an

18     organisation that used as one of its tools the idea that citizens would

19     spy and inform on other citizens to a very significant degree.  In terms

20     of your experience and knowledge of life in Kosovo up to and including

21     the time we are dealing with in this court, would that compare with the

22     way in which Serbian state security operated or would you in any way

23     distinguish it?

24        A.   I can say and I believe that it was similar.  The Serbian secret

25     service was even more sophisticated of that of Eastern Germany.  I will

Page 3458

 1     give one figure here:  From 1981 to 1991, in ten years the secret service

 2     have dealt with 7.000 Albanians who have given various information.

 3     After 1991, many Albanians left Kosovo because of this activity of the

 4     Serbian secret service.  It is precisely the secret service information

 5     that I'm giving you now that after 1991 we dealt with more Albanians than

 6     we dealt before 1991.

 7        Q.   I follow.  Is it within your experience - and I'm now dealing

 8     with the period up to and including the war - is it within your

 9     experience and knowledge, Mr. Krasniqi, that some state security

10     operations were conducted where people were killed and blame was

11     attributed to the KLA?  Did that --

12        A.   There have been attempts of this nature.  For example, by the end

13     of the war in Kosovo there was a killing -- a professor of the university

14     was killed.  He was a high politician of the Democratic League.  He was a

15     Serb and he was a member of the Rambouillet delegation.  And the state

16     security service tried to blame this killing on the KLA.

17        Q.   Very well.  I want to look at another topic under this same

18     heading, if I may, and I am picking up something you said to us yesterday

19     at page 24 of the transcript.  You were talking about people being held

20     and detained and so on.

21             "I'm convinced," you said to us yesterday, "that the Belgrade

22     regime had infiltrated within its ranks unarmed people."

23             I want to be clear what you're saying or attempting to say to us

24     there, Mr. Krasniqi.  Are you suggesting that the Belgrade regime

25     infiltrated into the ranks of the KLA?

Page 3459

 1        A.   When we keep in mind the very professional organisation of that

 2     service, they had ample opportunity to infiltrate their people in the

 3     ranks of the KLA and I gave here examples of people who have left the war

 4     zones and they were captured by the Serbian police.  And we don't know

 5     anything about their fate, even today.  These people had been spied upon

 6     by the secret service people who were operating, maybe even in the ranks,

 7     inside the ranks of the KLA.  However, I would like to say that even in

 8     the areas where the KLA was in control, they still had people operating

 9     there.

10        Q.   Yes.  Again, on your first day of evidence on the same topic at

11     page 43 of the transcript you said this:  "Many people at that time, even

12     today, are in connection with Serb secret service."

13             Mr. Krasniqi, I want to look at that with you just for a moment

14     as my last questions for you.  Do you literally mean that to be true,

15     that today there are people working for the Serb secret service within

16     Kosovo?

17        A.   Although this is not inside my area of responsibility, I am

18     convinced that the secret service -- the Serbian secret service in Kosovo

19     is still very powerful.

20        Q.   You come to us, sir, from a position of importance and

21     responsibility within your own country as a leading politician, if I may

22     say so, a member of your parliament, the leader of the opposition.  I

23     want to be clear what you're saying.  What do you say would be the

24     current aims of the Serb secret service working within Kosovo?

25        A.   The aim of that service in Kosovo -- first of all, you have to

Page 3460

 1     keep in mind that they have operated in Kosovo for 90 years, more or

 2     less.  They want to keep alive their ancient policies over Kosovo to

 3     destabilise the situation, the political situation and the security

 4     situation.  And for that reason during these five or six years they have

 5     exploited Kosovo citizens, manipulating them, not allowing them to

 6     integrate into the positive changes that have occurred in the country.

 7     So the operations of this service aim at destabilising the country

 8     politically to show to the world that Kosovo is not a safe country for

 9     its own citizens and neither Albanians nor the international community

10     are not [as interpreted] able to keep the country safe, to have free

11     movement of the citizens.  So these are the aims of this service,

12     multiple aims.  They want to destabilise Kosovo, to make Kosovo an unsafe

13     place for all its citizens.

14        Q.   Now, I want to move, finally, from the general to the specific,

15     Mr. Krasniqi.  And when I mean specific, what I mean is the possible

16     connection with what you've just been saying between that and this very

17     trial conducted by this Tribunal.  And I do so because it's something you

18     said very early on in your evidence and I want to read it back to you

19     from the transcript.

20             "I believe," you said, "that the indictment," page 7 of the

21     transcript.  "I believe that the indictment against the accused has been

22     built on politically motivated evidence given by people who have been in

23     the service of the violent occupiers in Kosovo."

24             Mr. Krasniqi, I sought to promise you at the outset of my

25     questions yesterday precise questions and invited precise answers.  May I

Page 3461

 1     put this to you in light of what you said to us within minutes of taking

 2     the witness stand and your answers now:  Is this the position, as far as

 3     you are concerned, that it would not be safe for this Tribunal to rule

 4     out the possibility that evidence given here by some citizens of Kosovo

 5     has been or may have been influenced by Serbian secret service?

 6             MR. TOPOLSKI:  I see Mr. Whiting is on his feet so you better not

 7     answer for a moment.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Whiting.

 9             MR. WHITING:  Your Honour, I'm going to object to this question.

10     When Mr. Topolski started this line of questioning, the witness clearly

11     stated this is outside his area of responsibility.  And so what is being

12     asked here, I would submit, is just rank speculation on the part of the

13     witness without any basis in -- without any foundation about other

14     witnesses who have come here and other evidence that has been presented

15     here to the Court.  If there's a foundation for it, perhaps; but I don't

16     think the witness should be permitted to engage in just pure speculation

17     about other witnesses who have come here to testify.

18             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Topolski.

19             MR. TOPOLSKI:  First of all, although the objection is not taken

20     on this ground, the relevance of it as far as this defendant and I

21     suggest other defendants concerned is that which I opened all those weeks

22     and months ago, that one of the areas this Court should and no doubt will

23     examine is the possibility of collusion as between witnesses or the

24     influence of this organisation on the testimony the witnesses come to

25     this Tribunal to give.  What this witness said in-chief was after the

Page 3462

 1     line I've just quoted:  "I am a witness that they have been processed in

 2     advance before they were given to the Prosecutors of the Tribunal.  They

 3     have been processed by the Serb intelligence service."

 4             It's upon that answer that he gave, this witness coming from

 5     where he comes from, with his background and present position would not,

 6     I respectfully submit, have said such a thing lightly nor flippantly.

 7     And if it be that the Court would wish me to seek to establish whether he

 8     has, as it were, the wherewithal to answer my question, then of course I

 9     shall not hesitate to do so.  But it was upon the basis of what he said

10     that I asked the question.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  Please proceed on the basis you've indicated, Mr.

12     Topolski, that is to see what might be the factual foundation for that

13     proposition.

14             MR. TOPOLSKI:  Very well.

15        Q.   Well, Mr. Krasniqi, you've heard that exchange and what I want to

16     do is ask you this:  You said to us when you came to that change about

17     politically motivated evidence of people who have been in the service of

18     the violent occupiers, these words, and I quote you:  "I am a witness

19     that they have been processed in advance before given -- before they were

20     given to the Prosecutors of the Tribunal.  They have been processed by

21     the Serb intelligence service."

22             Now, sir, was that an answer honestly given on the first day of

23     your evidence from that chair?

24        A.   All my evidence, I think I have given it honestly.  I was very

25     concrete in my answers and I tried to back everything that I said with

Page 3463

 1     facts.  If I'm asking to argue this again, I can provide you with new

 2     facts that will prove that my believe is based on facts and only facts.

 3        Q.   Good, because we are interested only in facts and not upon

 4     speculation, gossip, or rumour, Mr. Krasniqi.  Tell this Tribunal,

 5     please, if you are able to do so.  Upon what facts do you base the

 6     assertion that people have been processed before giving evidence to the

 7     Prosecutors of this Tribunal by Serb intelligence services?  What are the

 8     facts?

 9        A.   I base this on many witnesses that have come here to give

10     evidence, on many witnesses that have been part of trial proceedings in

11     Kosova, and on the fact that there were attempts even here to give the

12     war of the Albanian people of Kosova a direction that was not in reality.

13             I base this also on the fact that for all the crimes committed in

14     Kosova before the war and during the war by the Serbian police and

15     military forces, there hasn't been any legal proceedings about these

16     crimes, there hasn't been even prosecution of these crimes.  Nobody from

17     the ranks of the Serbian soldiers, from the Serbian leaders, has been

18     held responsible for the crimes that have been committed.  And I say that

19     all this is based on the evidence of the Serbian servants and those who

20     serve this secret service.

21             There has been attempt during these years by the political forces

22     in Kosovo to engage in the political developments and to favour those

23     prosecutors and legal workers who worked before in the -- during the

24     Serbian regime.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Topolski.

Page 3464

 1             MR. TOPOLSKI:  Yes.

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  There seems to be one element of that that might

 3     have potential, otherwise not.  That is the first line or so of the

 4     answer.

 5             MR. TOPOLSKI:  Yes.

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  "Witnesses that have come here to give evidence."

 7     I'm not sure what may lie --

 8             MR. TOPOLSKI:  No.  And out of an abundance of caution it may be

 9     appropriate to go to private session to examine that for a moment.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

11             Private session.

12   [Private session rendered Public by Trial Chamber, 15/02/2005]

13             MR. TOPOLSKI:

14        Q.   Mr. Krasniqi, the meaning of private session is that no one

15     outside this room can nor will hear of what is taking place.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in private session.

17             MR. TOPOLSKI:

18        Q.   You said at the beginning of that answer that you just gave us

19     that "witnesses have come here to give evidence."

20             Mr. Krasniqi, I repeat, we are only interested in facts and not

21     speculation.  Are you in a position to give this Tribunal any names of

22     any witnesses you suggest have come here to give evidence influenced by

23     the Serb secret service?  Just answer that question yes or no, please,

24     for the moment.

25        A.   Witnesses that gave evidence not by their real names but with

Page 3465

 1     coded names, those who gave evidence before this Trial Chamber, they were

 2     in close connection with the Serb secret service.

 3        Q.   Again, just answer this next question yes or no.  Do you know the

 4     real identities of any of those people?  Just yes or no, please.

 5        A.   I don't know their real names, but I know their evidence.

 6        Q.   I want to be clear, please, sir, if I may.  Are you saying that

 7     the fact that they gave evidence anonymously indicates that they are

 8     working or their evidence may in some way be potentially influenced by

 9     the Serb secret service?  Is that what you're saying?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And that is a genuine position that you hold, is it, Mr.

12     Krasniqi?

13        A.   Not only my opinion, but since I am speaking on my behalf this is

14     my opinion.

15             MR. TOPOLSKI:  Your Honours, I don't know if that would be in the

16     Tribunal's view a sufficient basis to enable me to put the proposition

17     that I was seeking to end my cross-examination with.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             JUDGE PARKER:  The Chamber takes the view it's not a basis that

20     would be adequate, Mr. Topolski.

21             MR. TOPOLSKI:  I have no other questions.  Thank you very much.

22        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Krasniqi, for your patience.  That's all I ask

23     you.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  I'm not sure where I should now look.  To Mr.

25     Mansfield.

Page 3466

 1             We should go back in public session I think, Mr. Mansfield.

 2             MR. MANSFIELD:  Yes, please.

 3                           [Open session]

 4                           Cross-examined by Mr. Mansfield:

 5        Q.   Mr. Krasniqi, good afternoon.  I represent Fatmir Limaj, who sits

 6     behind me to my right.  You'll be pleased to know I don't have a great

 7     deal to ask you.  A lot of ground has been covered and hopefully I'll be

 8     able to do it within the hour so you know how much there is.  I'm sorry

 9     about this.

10             I want to start, if I may, by asking you about Fatmir Limaj as a

11     person.  You indicated yesterday that you met him in June and you met him

12     on a few occasions after that and no doubt you've met him after the war

13     was over before he was brought here to this Tribunal.  What I want to ask

14     you is this:  Could you first of all indicate your overall view of Fatmir

15     Limaj as a person, please.

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Could you expand and just tell us what your view is.

18        A.   As I've said before in the previous session, in the second I

19     think it was, yesterday, I've known Fatmir Limaj since June 1998.  And

20     later on, especially after October and November 1998, I got to know him

21     even better due to the fact we both were members of the General Staff of

22     the Kosova Liberation Army.  Throughout this time, he has been a close

23     friend of mine, a good friend, and a great communicator with the

24     citizens.  And he has supported a lot the citizens, especially those who

25     during the Serb offensives took shelter in the -- in the valleys of

Page 3467

 1     Berisa Mountains, in the valleys above the villages of Kishna Reka,

 2     Nekovce, Bajice, Shale, and Kroimire.  On these gorges and during the

 3     frequent offensives launched by the Serbs, there were around 60.000 to

 4     70.000 civilians seeking shelter, mainly of them -- mainly women,

 5     children, and elderly persons.  There were persons of other ages as well,

 6     due to the lack of weapons and means to arm them.

 7             The help and aid that he provided to the civilian population is

 8     such that he should be in a different position and compensated for what

 9     he did; however, things happen in life.  His presence here is unbearable

10     for his family, for himself, and for us as his friends; yet, we think in

11     these moments positive democratic process is taking place in Kosova, his

12     absence in these processes is very evident.  I'm telling you sincerely

13     that his absence is very evident also in the process of reconciliation

14     between the Kosova citizens of different nationalities, a reconciliation

15     that has been the aim and the goal of this Tribunal.  We believe that the

16     truth and the facts are in Fatmir's favour and that he should come back

17     and return to his life.  As Israel [as interpreted] -- Disrael [as

18     interpreted] would put it, life is very short and should be lived.

19        Q.   I think there may be, looking at the transcript -- I think it

20     should be Disraeli rather than Israel.  I'm not sure.  I think it's

21     Disraeli.  I think a number of us would agree that quotation.  Could it

22     be changed from Israel to Disraeli, so that the transcript can be

23     accurate.  I'll move on.

24             You've indicated that he was not a member of the General Staff

25     until November of 1998.  I want to work backwards, if I may,

Page 3468

 1     concentrating on Fatmir Limaj.  The period between August and November

 2     saw the establishment of brigades and in his case the one relevant to him

 3     is Brigade 121, is it not?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   We also know and I'm not going to take up time with you, that the

 6     territory occupied, if I can put it this way or at least within the

 7     bounds of 121, was not identical to the zones or subzones that have

 8     existed before August.  Is that right?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Now, I want to move backwards again to the period up to the end

11     of August about which you were asked a few questions this afternoon and

12     several before that, the period being between roughly April and August.

13     There were in existence theoretically seven subzones which you mentioned

14     on a previous occasion.  That is right, is it not?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   I'll come to the extent to which zones or operational and active

17     in that period in one moment.  However, it's right to say that Fatmir

18     Limaj was not a commander in charge of any of the zones, however active

19     or inactive, during that period, was he?

20        A.   He wasn't.

21        Q.   The extent to which any one of the seven zones was operational in

22     that period was to a large extent itself dependent on how organised the

23     subzones had been before April of 1998.  So, for example, Drenica had

24     been very organised before or more organised and was in a better position

25     to become active after April.  Is that a fair description?

Page 3469

 1        A.   It is.

 2        Q.   And in fact I don't know whether you can attempt a league table

 3     of the seven, but that may be a little unrealistic.  The reason I ask you

 4     is this:  An answer that you gave to the Prosecution was that the Pastrik

 5     zone in the period April through to August was lagging behind in terms of

 6     attempting any kind of organisation.  Do you remember saying that?

 7        A.   Yes, I said this.  And if necessary, I can speak of the

 8     organisation of each and every zone when it started to expand.

 9        Q.   Well, I'm going to concentrate, if I may.  I think Drenica is at

10     the top.  Of the seven zones, is it possible for you to indicate where

11     Pastrik may come in terms of organisation and development?  Is it near

12     the bottom of the seven or is it near the middle or where is it?

13        A.   It is in the middle.

14        Q.   In the middle.  And in the Pastrik zone there were -- were there

15     several units so far as you could tell, again in the April to August

16     period, several units began to spring up and operate there?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Now, can you indicate the names of any of the units that were

19     operating in that zone during that period?  That's April to August,

20     before the brigades were established.

21        A.   I can name some, not all of them.  There existed in the Malisheve

22     municipality the Lumi unit.

23        Q.   Yes.

24        A.   In Rahovec municipality in the Zatriq mountain there was a unit

25     called 500; it was called after a number.  There was another unit in

Page 3470

 1     Therande municipality, former Suva Reka; it was called Lisi.  And also

 2     another unit in Prizren municipality in the village of Vrini, but I don't

 3     remember the name of this unit.  There were smaller units as well, but I

 4     don't remember their names.

 5        Q.   Just on that answer you've given so far, was the Lisi unit

 6     otherwise known as tree and Lumi as river?  Just asking for

 7     clarification.  Sorry to ask that.  Is that another name for the same

 8     units, in other words tree in English for lisi and luma [sic] for river?

 9        A.   Yes, correct.

10        Q.   You can't remember some of the others.  Was -- I just want to ask

11     you about Celiku.  Was that a unit you were familiar with or units?

12        A.   I knew about the unit that was led by Fatmir Limaj.  It was based

13     in Klecke.

14        Q.   Now, I wonder if we could just develop that a little.  In this

15     period April through to August, you've described this as the second stage

16     in the development of the KLA, in other words the stage between it acting

17     as a guerrilla army which targeted precise actions and precise places and

18     people, into a movement of people towards the KLA which you've described

19     as voluntary and then obviously the later stage it becomes more like a

20     regular army.  So it's the middle stage.  Would that be fair?

21        A.   Correct.

22        Q.   And from everything you've said so far, it appears that during

23     this voluntary phase, what -- the major problem for the KLA was a lack of

24     infrastructure, resources, funds, arms, and communication that could cope

25     with the influx of people who wanted to provide resistance.  Is that a

Page 3471

 1     fair description?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And what it meant in practical terms was that first of all the

 4     higher commands such as existed, the mobile General Staff that moved

 5     around - you've already described it - they wouldn't know necessarily how

 6     many people had volunteered, where they were, or who had been elected

 7     amongst them to be their leaders always.  Would that be fair?

 8        A.   It is fair.

 9        Q.   Similarly if one moves down a level to the units, I'll call them

10     units, operating as people volunteered, the individual units were groups,

11     they wouldn't know necessarily how many other people were volunteering in

12     other units on the other side of a mountain, would they?

13        A.   They didn't know.

14        Q.   And in these circumstances that we've just gone through, do you

15     agree that the element of control, therefore, was a both confused and

16     difficult exercise?

17        A.   It was difficult, yes.

18        Q.   And -- I'm sorry just to repeat the question; there are two parts

19     to it.  It was difficult and also confused during this period?

20        A.   It was difficult, it was confused, and the division made by the

21     Serbian police and army forces made this even more difficult.

22        Q.   Now, I wonder if you could be provided - you may have seen it

23     before - with the maps that we have which are identified as P1.  And if

24     there isn't one in front of you, it will come.  And in particular, I want

25     to turn to map 6 in P1.  If you would kindly turn to map 6, you'll find

Page 3472

 1     they're all numbered in slightly different places, but it's map 6 with

 2     villages and red dots all over it.  It's about the seventh map in, in

 3     fact.  Now you have the map 6 in front of you.  You will see if you --

 4     well, I'll do it this way.  Lapusnik's in a square, a red square.  And

 5     then below that is Berisa with a red triangle.  So I'm coming down in a

 6     straight line you can see, until we get to Klecka.  Can you see Klecka

 7     with a red dot?

 8        A.   Yes, I can see.

 9        Q.   Now, this next question you may not be able to help with.  I

10     don't know whether you can.  The question is this:  Do you happen to know

11     during the April to August period the villages which the particular unit

12     under the command of Fatmir Limaj, Celiku unit, where he went to help

13     other groups?  For example, if you look to the left as you're looking at

14     the plan, in other words westwards, you'll see Ladrovac and then you'll

15     see Terpeze just beyond that.  If I go through the villages, are you able

16     to help with this or not?  The villages that his unit assisted or that he

17     assisted?

18        A.   You mean how he assisted the citizens or when he went as

19     assistance to other groups during attacks by the enemy?

20        Q.   I mean the former.  In other words, when he was going to assist

21     citizens and help with the gradual growth of other units of resistance

22     and so on.  During the April to August period the villages he would go

23     to -- I've started with the ones just to the west there.  There are ones

24     further to the south, Malisheve, Banje, Bajice.  If you can't say, I

25     won't pursue it.  But I wanted to ask you if you happened to know during

Page 3473












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 3474

 1     this period if those were the villages which he was concentrating on,

 2     firstly for helping citizens, and secondly citizens to protect themselves

 3     against the Serbs?

 4        A.   Well, to my recollection of course he would help his birthplace

 5     Banje, and then Terpeze, Lladrovci, this is what I remember, while during

 6     the offensive, as I said, other villages on the eastern part and

 7     north-east from Berisa.

 8        Q.   Well, I want to ask you about Lapusnik in particular.  You've

 9     already indicated that Lapusnik was in the municipality of Gllogoc, which

10     itself was in Drenica.  So is it your evidence that Lapusnik came within

11     the zone that in fact was most organised during April to August, namely

12     Drenica?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   During that time, did you have occasion to go to Lapusnik

15     yourself?  Do you remember whether you did or not?

16        A.   I haven't been to Lapusnik.

17        Q.   We can see on this map, admittedly different on the ground, it's

18     not that far away from your home village, is it, Negrovce, which is just

19     to the north-west on the map you're looking at.  Is that right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Now, I'm not going to take too long probably, but during that

22     period of time, we gather from your evidence that you were moving around

23     with the General Staff and as a spokesman quite a lot.

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Now, I don't want -- you can give the places if you wish, but

Page 3475

 1     over what area were you moving during that time?  Can you just give us

 2     some idea of the sort of places you went to so Their Honours can see the

 3     scope of where you travelled.  Could you just indicate -- you can name

 4     the places if it's easier if you travelled as far -- I'm giving an

 5     illustration as Malisevo in the west or Zborce in the east and so on.  If

 6     you can give us an idea of the parameters where you moved in this period

 7     of time.

 8        A.   We moved in Klecka when we gave interviews or had meetings.  Then

 9     in Divjake, in Berisa.  Between Divjake and Berisa there is another small

10     village which is not marked here; it's name is Novo Selo.  Then to

11     Terpeze, Orlate.  There is another village called Vuqak also not marked

12     here.  In the north we have Bajice.  On the western side of Bajice is the

13     village of Terdec.  We moved to this place as well and we also came up to

14     Drenoc villages which are on the northern-eastern part of the Skenderaj

15     junction, Gllogoc-Skenderaj junction.  We've moved to villages of the

16     Vushtrri municipality, Mitrovic municipality, and Podujeva.  I have been

17     in the area covering the villages of Dukagjin and Suhareke.  These were

18     my movements in the capacity of a spokesmen at the time.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Now, the question I wanted to ask you in the light of

20     that, did you at any time hear that there was located or said to be

21     located in Lapusnik a prison camp?

22        A.   At that time I did not hear about it.  And I say this with full

23     responsibility that I have heard about the so-called camp, prison, after

24     the arrest of Fatmir and his friends.

25        Q.   I want to ask you a further question, given your position within

Page 3476

 1     the General Staff.  Would Lapusnik as a location in the April/August

 2     period have been a sensible place to situate a prison camp?

 3             MR. WHITING:  Your Honour, I'm going to object on this, again

 4     based on foundation.  The witness has said, number one, that he was not

 5     involved in operational matters; number two, that he did not even go to

 6     Lapusnik at this time.  So for him to answer this question I think would

 7     be purely speculative.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Mansfield.

 9             MR. MANSFIELD:  Well, Your Honour, in my submission there are two

10     parts to this.  One, of course he said he hadn't been to Lapusnik in this

11     period, and that was a precursor.  However, from his answers he's

12     travelled very widely indeed, and I submit and I don't think there was

13     objection taken to me asking whether throughout those travels during this

14     period he'd period of a prison camp; I leave to comment for later the

15     significance of that.

16             However, as far as the second part is concerned, here is somebody

17     who is not concerned with operational matters, but that does not mean

18     that he may not have a view about them, particularly as he is not only a

19     spokesman but he must have been in very close contact on the General

20     Staff level with those who did have concern for operations and he must

21     have known from time to time where the front line of any exercise or

22     operation occurred such that he then would be in a position, because he

23     can't be without -- entirely without some military experience to know

24     whether Lapusnik on the front line, as it was at one stage, was a

25     sensible place to have a prison camp.  That's our submission.

Page 3477

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Mansfield, in view of the matters that have

 2     been indicated in the objection, could I indicate that the weight that

 3     would be attached to the answer is likely to be seen to be very little

 4     indeed.  But I won't rule that you should not ask.  You have a somewhat

 5     threadbare basis for it.

 6             MR. MANSFIELD:  Yes.  I understand the objection and I understand

 7     Your Honour's point.  I'm obviously not going to waste Your Honour's time

 8     to ask questions that produce answers, so far as this aspect are

 9     concerned, as to whether it was a sensible place.  I leave it for comment

10     for later.

11             I see the time.  I wonder whether you were thinking about --

12             JUDGE PARKER:  I was waiting for you to appear to draw breath for

13     the appropriate moment.  We will break now and resume at 5 after 4.00.

14                           [The witness steps down]

15                           --- Recess taken at 3.44 p.m.

16                           --- On resuming at 4.09 p.m.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Whiting.

18             MR. WHITING:  Yes.  Thank you, Your Honour.  I'm wondering if

19     before the witness is brought back in to continue the cross-examination I

20     could just raise a matter, a concern about a misimpression that I believe

21     may have been left at the end of Mr. Topolski's cross-examination.  I've

22     already raised this matter with Mr. Topolski and he concurs with the

23     problem and also with the solution.

24             At the end of the cross-examination, and specifically it's at

25     page 16, the witness asserted that he had "facts to support the

Page 3478

 1     proposition that people have been processed before giving evidence to the

 2     Prosecutors of this Tribunal by Serb intelligence services."

 3             We then, in order to give the witness an opportunity to provide

 4     these facts, we went into closed [sic] session.  And my concern that the

 5     misimpression that this leaves for the public watching the trial.  And I

 6     would ask - and again, Mr. Topolski concurs with this - that the record

 7     be made clear in public that in fact the witness offered no such facts to

 8     support that proposition.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  And are you proposing that what you have just said

10     should be that public recording of that matter?

11             MR. WHITING:  Yes, Your Honour.  I think that would be

12     sufficient.  Perhaps also that there be no harm in making that portion

13     that was in private session public session.  I see no reason for it to be

14     in private session.  And just so the record is absolutely clear, it could

15     be made un   -- made open, made public for the transcript.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  I think it's fair to say that nothing was said in

17     the closed session.  I think that may be the way to do it, Mr. Whiting,

18     simply order to be opened that which was closed.

19             MR. WHITING:  I think that's an excellent solution.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE PARKER:  Something about jack-in-the-box.  We'll have the

21     witness.  Thank you for that, Mr. Whiting.

22                           [The witness entered court]

23             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Mansfield.

24             MR. MANSFIELD:  Yes, thank you.

25        Q.   Mr. Krasniqi, the last question I want to ask you, although it

Page 3479

 1     may take a little time to answer it, is to take up your offer earlier

 2     this afternoon that you could in fact indicate to the Tribunal in the

 3     April-to-August period of 1998 the development of the subzones into

 4     operational and active zones.  We've dealt with Drenica, which you've

 5     indicated was the most operative and you put Pastrik in the middle.  But

 6     what I'd like to do now with your help and your offer is to just run

 7     through the other zones.  I think in terms of -- this is not particularly

 8     controversial, I hope.  Drenica was commanded by someone called Selimi.

 9     Is that right?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And you've already indicated the municipalities involved in that.

12     So I pass from that.  And if I'm wrong in what I put, please correct me.

13     Would the second one be on the basis of what you -- second subzone of

14     what you've already said -- Dukagjin just to the south and west, would

15     that be the next subzone in terms of development?  If not, please say

16     which one it would be.

17        A.   Yes, that was subzone number 3 and later zone number 3 [as

18     interpreted].  And it came immediately after Drenica zone from the

19     organizational point of view.

20        Q.   I'm sorry to pause.  I'm just wondering looking at the answer

21     whether there's been a misunderstanding.  It says:  "Yes, that was

22     subzone number 3 and later zone number 3."

23             Was it -- I'm sorry to just ask.  Is that right?  Was it subzone

24     something else and later zone number 3?

25        A.   It is the same thing.

Page 3480

 1        Q.   Same thing, yes.  Who was the commander of that zone as you

 2     recall it, again in this period of time, April to August?  If you can

 3     help by remembering.

 4        A.   The zone commander, he was such later.  But at this period it was

 5     Ramush Haradinaj.

 6        Q.   And since it's close by, are you in a position to indicate the

 7     municipalities in this case that were embraced by this zone?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Could you just indicate what they are.

10        A.   Part of the zone was Istog lying to the north part of Dukagjin;

11     Peja, Decan, Gjurakoc, and part of Klina municipality.

12        Q.   Thank you.  So in terms of organisation after that subzone

13     numbered 3, what came next in this period of time again?

14        A.   It was very similar to those ranking from Pastrik and Shala of

15     Bajgora, then Llap.

16        Q.   And who was in charge -- can I take Shale first of all.  Who was

17     in charge of that one during this period?

18        A.   Rrahman Rama [phoen].

19        Q.   And you've mentioned Pastrik.  Who was in charge of that one?

20        A.   Yes.  Yes.  In charge of Pastrik there were different persons.

21     Initially it was Musa Jashari.  Later it was Ekrem Rexha.  And finally,

22     Tahir Sinani.

23        Q.   You've mentioned three individuals there.  Are those three

24     individuals who took over one after another all during the

25     April-to-August period?

Page 3481

 1        A.   From April to August -- not from April but it was by the end of

 2     July was Musa Jashari in charge until November, if I recollect.  Then

 3     after November came Ekrem Rexha.  And it was sometime in March or April

 4     1999 that Tahir Sinani became the commander.

 5        Q.   May I just -- pausing on the Pastrik subzone for the moment, does

 6     it follow from what you're saying that there wasn't in fact anybody in

 7     overall command between - I'm sorry to be particular about the months -

 8     April to July of 1998?

 9        A.   No, it was not.

10        Q.   And just in this case, I won't do it in all cases, but in this

11     case the Pastrik subzone as you understood it, what municipalities were

12     involved here in that period of time?

13        A.   The municipality of Malisheve; Rahovec; of Prizren; of Sharri,

14     the former Dragash; and the municipality of Suhareke.

15        Q.   Now the other zone you put on a par with Shale and Pastrik was

16     Llap.  Can I ask you about that?  Who was in charge of that zone in this

17     period, at some stage in this period that is?

18        A.   The main person in charge for that zone was Rrustem Mustafa.

19        Q.   Now, we I think have only got two subzones left to go.  Is,

20     therefore, I make it number 6, Nerodime?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And in relation to that at what point between April and August

23     was there somebody with overall command in that zone?

24        A.   It was around July or maybe early August that the commander of

25     this zone was Shukri Buja.  But I have to say here that this is a zone

Page 3482

 1     that lied [as interpreted] in the north-east of Shari Mountains and it

 2     should comprise the municipalities of Shtime, Lipjan, Ferizaj, and

 3     Kacanik .  But because of geographical conditions I think, the army was

 4     organised only in the villages of the municipalities lying at the foot of

 5     Shari Mountains.

 6        Q.   That leaves us I think with one more subzone to go, Karadak.  Is

 7     that right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And again, at what stage in this same period did someone appear

10     to be in command there?

11        A.   This is the zone that we might say was less engaged in military

12     operational activity.  The commander of this zone was appointed at the

13     end of 1998 or the beginning of 1999, Ahmet Isufi.

14        Q.   Yes.  Thank you very much for your help.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Mansfield.

16             Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

17                           Cross-examined by Mr. Guy-Smith:

18        Q.   Good afternoon, sir.  I represent Haradin Bala.  I'm going to ask

19     you questions in one area and one area alone - I have no desire to go

20     over the areas that have been ably covered by my colleagues - and that

21     deals with the area of the civilian population that was displaced during

22     the summer months of 1998.  You mentioned that in the valleys of Berisa

23     Mountain, the valleys above the villages of Kishna Reka, Nekovce, Bajice,

24     Shale, and Kroimire, there was somewhere in the neighbourhood of 60 to

25     70.000 displaced people, villagers who had been driven from their

Page 3483

 1     villages as a result of the Serbian offensive.  Is that correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Could you tell us when the displacement began?  And by that, what

 4     months did people start to have to three their homes as a result of the

 5     Serbian movement?

 6        A.   Yes.  The displacement of people from their homes began first in

 7     the half of -- in the half of July, especially in Rahovec.  Then with the

 8     stepping-up of the enemy offensive in August and September, the

 9     population were forced to flee their homes and settle in -- along the

10     valleys and mountains.  This happened in Berisa Mountains.  On the

11     opposite side of the asphalt road, that is in the Drenica villages,

12     situated in Ternez and Dupcak villages, Bajice valley, Verbovc Mountains

13     and in a plain called Molv [phoen] plain.  The villagers left their homes

14     and settled in places where they could have the -- some strategic

15     support.  This went on during all the summer of 1998.

16        Q.   When you say that "the villagers settled in places where they

17     could have some strategic support," who was taking care of the villagers

18     that were coming in this rapid influx into this area?

19        A.   The people of KLA, the members of KLA, were the ones who were

20     mainly protecting the people because they their families were among these

21     displaced people.  So the soldiers had on the other hand to fight and on

22     the other to take care of the families and to take them to safer places.

23        Q.   Is it fair to say then that during what you have called the

24     middle phase of the KLA at a time when there was a lack of

25     infrastructure, a lack of resources, funds, arms, and communication

Page 3484

 1     facilities or possibilities, that among other things that were

 2     exacerbating the situation that were making it difficult for people to

 3     operate, was among this major influx of displaced people?

 4        A.   Yes, that is right.  And the KLA leaders of course had to support

 5     the civilian population to assist them.  And so this many cases they gave

 6     them the surplus food they had displaced civilian population.

 7        Q.   Thank you very much.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Guy-Smith.

 9             Mr. Whiting.

10             MR. WHITING:  Thank you, Your Honour.

11                           Re-examined by Mr. Whiting:

12        Q.   Sir, I just have a few questions and you'll be finished unless

13     the Court has some questions.  You mentioned today in your testimony --

14     you made -- you answered a question or two about the FARK.  Do you

15     remember that, talking about the FARK?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Was the FARK a part of the KLA or was it a separate organisation?

18        A.   I think I need some time to explain this issue.

19        Q.   Well, if you could answer the question first and then give your

20     explanation, that would be helpful.

21        A.   It was another organisation.

22        Q.   And if you have a brief explanation, please provide it.

23        A.   It was in 1991/1992 I think.  Former officers of the Yugoslav

24     army, meaning Albanian officers, were organised by the government of

25     Bujar Bukoshi who was -- had a government in exile.  He tried to set up

Page 3485

 1     an army with such people, but the Serb secret service found out very soon

 2     what they were going to do and arrested some of them.  Some others left

 3     Kosova and lived in the Western countries.

 4             After the outbreak of the war, the cadres of that former attempt

 5     to set up that army who regarded themselves as professional cadres

 6     regrouped to enter Kosova.  Negotiations were held with them, and they

 7     agreed to come to Kosova as military experts and to fight under the logo

 8     of the KLA.  But in fact they tried to maintain their links, their old

 9     links because of the schools, the educations with the Bikoshi government

10     who paid these people.  So this formation caused great harm to the KLA.

11             I have explained this in another session, that such people have

12     handed over to the Serb forces some 5.000 or 6.000 weapons.  And they

13     have withdrawn -- part of their army withdrew in Albania.  It was at the

14     end of August or beginning of September 1998 that some 50 soldiers were

15     left of them.  This is more or less the explanation I want to give about

16     -- a brief explanation I want to give about FARK.

17        Q.   And Tahir Zemi, was he a member of the FARK?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And I believe you testified in a previous session, and perhaps it

20     was in reference to what you've just explained, that Tahir Zemi operated

21     in the Dukagjin zone during the summer months of 1998.  Was that your

22     testimony?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Aside from the Dukagjin zone, did the FARK, to your knowledge,

25     operate anywhere else, or were they limited to the Dukagjin zone?

Page 3486

 1        A.   There were FARK members also outside of Dukagjin, but they had

 2     limited possibilities to act.  Therefore, they -- by the end of 1998 they

 3     ceased their activity.

 4        Q.   And where outside of Dukagjin, if you know?

 5        A.   Yes.  They operated in -- mostly in the Pastrik zone.

 6        Q.   And where in the Pastrik zone, if you know?

 7        A.   Especially in Therande, former Suhareke municipality.

 8        Q.   Now, you were asked some questions today about the fighting in

 9     Rahovec and you testified that the fighting was unauthorised by the

10     General Staff and also, as I understand it, that it was spontaneous.  And

11     I want to ask you some questions about that.  When the KLA took control

12     of Rahovec for a brief time, was that the first time that the KLA had

13     taken control of a major town in Kosovo?

14        A.   Yes.  It was the first town that KLA took under its control.  A

15     small town.

16        Q.   And do you know who led the KLA forces in that attack on Rahovec?

17        A.   Yes.  Rahovec had its own unit which operated until that time

18     outside the city.  The leaders of that unit when the attack happened were

19     not there; they were neither in Rahovec nor in Kosova.  At that time the

20     General Staff had appointed two military men to see what possibilities

21     there were for the operational -- for the operations of the KLA, Agim

22     Cela --

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Sorry, I didn't get the name.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And to sound out the situation in

25     the terrain to see what they could do they went to Rahovec.  And the

Page 3487

 1     instructions they gave to the Rahovec unit was not to enter the city

 2     because the KLA was not prepared from the defence aspect to protect the

 3     city with weapons, so they shouldn't enter the city.  I said the same

 4     thing during the first session.  This happened in Bardhi i Madh, in

 5     Obiliq mine, which was one of the closest settlements to Pristina.  They

 6     were told also that because of the limited number of weapons that we had

 7     especially to protect the settlement there, Bardhi i Madh was not a

 8     mountainous terrain so it was not easy for the KLA to defend it.  But

 9     both attacks took place without the approval of the General Staff of the

10     KLA.

11             MR. WHITING:

12        Q.   But who then led the attack on Rahovec?

13        A.   At first the city taken was Rahovec unit, which I don't remember

14     what name it had, but I know that there was an officer with a pseudonym

15     Piktori was that.  He was a cadre educated in the military school of

16     Yugoslavia, but I don't have more information to give about that person.

17     What I know is that the attack went on without the approval of the

18     General Staff.  After the city was taken, then the General Staff

19     appointed Agim Cela to lead the defence of Rahovec.  This was a quick

20     decision and very severe fight took place, during which the leader Agim

21     Cela that was appointed by the General Staff was killed.

22        Q.   After the battle of Rahovec, did you ever hear anything about

23     some 40-plus Serb civilians being captured during the battle and

24     disappearing, never to be seen again?  Did you ever hear anything about

25     that?

Page 3488

 1        A.   No, I have not heard anything.

 2        Q.   Have you ever heard anything about the 121 Brigade being in

 3     existence at that time and participating in the fighting at Rahovec?

 4        A.   When the fighting took place in Rahovec, brigades were not yet

 5     named or formed for that matter.  Just to give you an example, Brigade

 6     121 is named after Ismet Jashari, whose pseudonym was Kumanova, and he

 7     was killed by the end of August.  It was 25th or 26th of August; I am not

 8     sure.  But it was the end of August.  So a brigade could not be named

 9     after him before he was killed, which means that it was called after him

10     after his death in the fighting with the Serb military forces.

11        Q.   Before the 121 Brigade was known as the Kumanova Brigade, was it

12     known by another name?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   To your knowledge was it known as just the 121 Brigade?

15        A.   I'm saying again that brigades were not formed in Pastrik zone

16     before the summer offensive, which means before August.  Before August

17     some attempts were made to form brigades in the zones of Drenica and

18     Dukagjin.

19        Q.   Now, I want to pass to a different subject.  You described the

20     division between the Drenica zone and the Dukagjin zone.  And I just want

21     to see if I understand your testimony correctly.  Did you -- is it your

22     testimony that the Klina municipality was divided between those two

23     zones, part of Klina was in Drenica and part of Klina was in the Dukagjin

24     zone?

25        A.   Yes, that was it.  They were divided in some instances by the

Page 3489

 1     road axis.

 2        Q.   Well, that leads very well to my next question.  With respect to

 3     the division between the Drenica zone and the Pastrik zone, did you ever

 4     hear that the division between those two zones was the Peja-Pristina

 5     highway, that that represented the division between the two zones?  Did

 6     you ever hear that?

 7        A.   Not the entire road.  Pristina-Peja didn't divide the zone,

 8     Drenica and Dukagjin.  I want to clarify this.

 9        Q.   Please do.

10        A.   In Kline, meaning before you enter the bridge to Kline, on the

11     left side when you go to Peja there is the road that goes to Gjurakoc.

12     Going in the direction of Gjurakoc, the villages situated on the left

13     side of this road were involved in the Pastrik zone.  When you enter

14     Kline there are two roads.  One road leads to Gjurakoc and Istog and this

15     was the dividing line of Drenica from Dukagjin.  If you go from Kline to

16     Gjurakoc the villages lying on the left side belong to Dukagjin zone.

17     The villages on the right side belong to the Drenica zone.  This road

18     from Kline to Gjurakoc and Istog crosses the Mitrovic-Peja road.  And

19     again, this road Mitrovic-Peja was a dividing line.  If you go from Peja

20     to Mitrovic from Gjurakoc on the right side was the Drenica zone.  On the

21     left side was part of Dukagjin zone.

22        Q.   I want to ask you about a part of the road that you did not

23     address, and that is the part of the road from the Pristina to the Orlate

24     junction.  At the Orlate junction one road goes to Peja and one road goes

25     to Rahovec.  That part of the road from Pristina to the Orlate junction,

Page 3490

 1     did you ever hear that that was the dividing line between Drenica and

 2     Pastrik?

 3        A.   Yes, but not the entire road.  I'm mentioning even the villages.

 4        Q.   Well, focusing -- let me put the question and then maybe we can

 5     get clarity on this.  Focusing on that part of the road between Orlate

 6     and Pristina, what portion of that road divided the Pastrik zone from the

 7     Drenica zone?

 8        A.   The road is not what divides the Pastrik zone from Drenica zone,

 9     but the Prishtine-Peja road near Arlat is another road that goes to

10     Malisheve and Rahovec.  And on both sides of this road there is Arlat

11     village.  Arlat village was part of Drenica zone.  Then there is the

12     Lapusnik village, which is also divided in two parts.  There are three

13     large neighbourhoods with different names which are known by the local

14     people, but officially it is known as a single village by the name of

15     Lapusnik.  It's Lapusnik neighbourhood, Paterk and Vukofc neighbourhoods.

16     This entire village was part of Drenica zone.  Then come the villages

17     that are found in the north-eastern part of Berisa Mountains like

18     Komorane, Kishna Reka, and Nekovce; they were part -- or part of the

19     military organisation of Drenica zone.

20        Q.   Well --

21        A.   Like other villages, Fushtice, Sankovc that are in the eastern

22     part.  So I want to say that not the entire roads divided zone.

23        Q.   Let me focus you specifically on Lapusnik.  Did you hear that in

24     fact part of Lapusnik was divided and part of Lapusnik was in Drenica and

25     part of Lapusnik was in Pastrik?  Did you ever hear that?

Page 3491

 1        A.   As far as I know and as far as I remember, the entire Lapusnik

 2     was part -- even Arlat, even though it was found on the opposite side of

 3     the road it was also part of Drenica zone.

 4        Q.   You testified that Sulejman Selimi during -- from May to July of

 5     1998 was the commander of the Drenica zone.  Have you ever talked to him

 6     about where the dividing line was between the Drenica zone and the

 7     Pastrik zone?

 8        A.   The responsibilities and -- the level of responsibility of

 9     Sulejman Selimi was not determined by the zones.  The zones were divided

10     -- determined by the General Staff.

11        Q.   That wasn't my question.  My question was:  Have you ever talked

12     to him about where the dividing line was between the Drenica zone and the

13     Pastrik zone?  Yes or no?

14        A.   No, I did not talk because I thought he knew it.

15        Q.   Thank you for that answer.  I'm going to move to a different

16     subject and it's the last subject.  During your cross-examination you

17     gave a definition or attempted to give a definition about what it means

18     to be a collaborator.  My question to you is:  During the various

19     pronouncements that were made by the General Staff during 1998 - and I

20     include communiques, speeches, political declarations, and interviews

21     that you gave - was any such definition of a collaborator ever provided

22     by the General Staff?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   And then my final question, sir, is:  You were asked some

25     questions on cross-examination about what procedures, if any, were

Page 3492

 1     followed to determine who was a collaborator.  And I'll put the same

 2     question to you on this topic, which is:  Again, in these various

 3     pronouncements that were made - speeches, communiques, interviews,

 4     political declarations - did the General Staff ever communicate

 5     procedures that should be followed to determine who is and who is not a

 6     collaborator?  Yes or no?

 7        A.   I did not deal with the explanation of the word "collaborator"

 8     because we thought at that time and we think today that it is something

 9     that is well-known.

10        Q.   If you could answer my last question, sir, I would appreciate it.

11     Were -- did the General Staff ever communicate procedures that should be

12     followed to determine who is a collaborator, yes or no, during 1998?

13        A.   No.

14             MR. WHITING:  I have no further questions, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much, Mr. Krasniqi.  You'll be

16     pleased to know that that concludes your evidence.  Thank you for the

17     assistance you've given and you are now free to return to your home.

18             Could I ask you to take with you one thought:  Witnesses in this

19     case and in many other cases are permitted by order of this Tribunal to

20     give evidence under a pseudonym.  That occurs after this Tribunal has

21     been satisfied by material placed before it that there is reason for that

22     person to seek protection from the publication of his name or her name

23     and other identifying material.  In this case, any witness who has so far

24     or who will give evidence under a pseudonym does so by order of this

25     Chamber.  In no case is that order given because of the consideration

Page 3493

 1     which you identified in your evidence.  I think that might help you as

 2     you reflect in later time on the proceedings here if you knew that.

 3             Thank you very much indeed, and you may now leave.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5                           [The witness withdrew]

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Whiting.

 8             MR. WHITING:  Your Honour, Mr. Black will be handling the next

 9     witness, who is prepared and is ready to testify.  If I could be briefly

10     excused and I will return in a few moments, but Mr. Black can carry on.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Whiting.

12             Yes, Mr. Black.

13             MR. BLACK:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I'd call the next

14     Prosecution witness, Ms. Susanne Ringgaard.

15                           [The witness entered court]

16             JUDGE PARKER:  Good afternoon.

17             THE WITNESS:  Good afternoon.

18             JUDGE PARKER:  Would you please take the affirmation which is on

19     the card now handed to you.

20             THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

21     whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much.  Please sit down.

23             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Black.

25             MR. BLACK:  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 3494

 1                           WITNESS:  SUSANNE RINGGAARD PEDERSEN

 2                           Examined by Mr. Black:

 3        Q.   Ms. Ringgaard, thank you very much for coming.  I just make one

 4     note before we begin.  We both will be speaking English and as a

 5     consequence we speak quickly.  As you know, everything is being

 6     translated into other languages.  What I would ask you to do is speak

 7     slowly and pause after my questions before you answer.  That will help

 8     the interpreters and the court reporter.  And also, if at any time you

 9     don't understand one of my questions, please say so and I'll try to state

10     it more clearly.

11             Now, in a moment I'll ask you about your background and later

12     about your experiences in Kosovo in 1998 and 1999.  First I'm going to

13     ask you some preliminary questions.

14        A.   Mm-hmm.

15        Q.   Do you recall that you were interviewed by an ICTY investigator

16     on the 27th of November, 2003, in Denmark?

17        A.   Yes, I do.

18        Q.   Did you make a signed statement at that time?

19        A.   Yes, I did.

20        Q.   Have you had a chance to review that statement and make any

21     necessary corrections?

22        A.   Yes, I have.

23        Q.   In fact, you made some corrections yesterday.  Is that right?

24        A.   Yes, I did.

25        Q.   Apart from those corrections, is the statement otherwise

Page 3495

 1     accurate?

 2        A.   Yes, it's accurate.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  And just so it's clear, since you've arrived in The

 4     Hague you and I have met to discuss your testimony.  Is that right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Now, Ms. Ringgaard, have you ever testified in any other

 7     proceedings other than this regarding the time you spent in Kosovo?

 8        A.   Yes.  I testified in a trial in Kosovo of Commander Remi.

 9        Q.   Might that also be known as the Latif Gashi case?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And if you could, just briefly summarise the subject of your

12     testimony in that case.

13        A.   That had to do with a meeting I had together with my boss Sandra

14     Mitchell who was the head of the Human Rights Division in KVM.  We had a

15     meeting with Commander Remi on the 18th of February 1999 to discuss the

16     issue of detention.

17        Q.   Thank you very much.  Other than your statement to the ICTY and

18     this testimony you've just mentioned, have you ever given any other

19     statements or testified in other proceedings about your time in Kosovo?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   And regarding these proceedings, have you watched any part of

22     them on TV or here in The Hague?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   I'll proceed now to ask you a few questions about your

25     background.  First, if you could kindly state your name for the record.

Page 3496

 1        A.   Suzanne Ringgaard Pedersen.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  And, Ms. Ringgaard, where were you born?

 3        A.   In Denmark.

 4        Q.   And on what date?

 5        A.   12 December 1960.

 6        Q.   If you could, please briefly describe your educational

 7     background.

 8        A.   I have a bachelor's degree in international relations and a

 9     master degree in public international law.

10        Q.   And what is your occupation now?

11        A.   At the moment I'm the head of the Human Rights department in the

12     OSCE's Office for Democratic Institutions and Human Rights.

13        Q.   Where is that?

14        A.   That is in Warsaw in Poland.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Black, if I could just intrude to say that

16     both you and the witness are eagerly getting on with the evidence, I fear

17     already a little too quickly for those who have to keep up.

18             MR. BLACK:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I appreciate the reminder.

19        Q.   Ms. Ringgaard, how long have you been involved in human rights

20     work?

21        A.   Since 1995.

22        Q.   And did you in fact at some time come to work in Kosovo?

23        A.   Yes.  I started working in Kosovo on -- I think I arrived on the

24     1st of December, 1988, as part of the Kosovo Verification Mission of the

25     OSCE.

Page 3497

 1        Q.   Okay.  And before we go on just I'll put something on the record

 2     that may clear things up.  Is -- what is the OSCE stand for?

 3        A.   The Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  And Kosovo Verification Mission, is that sometimes

 5     referred to as the KVM?

 6        A.   Yes, it is.

 7        Q.   Mr. Younis kindly points out to me the transcript says you think

 8     you arrived on the 1st of December 1988.

 9        A.   1998.

10        Q.   Thank you very much.

11             If you could, please just briefly describe the mission of

12     OSCE-KVM in Kosovo.  What was your purpose there?

13        A.   The KVM was there to monitor the implementation of the cease-fire

14     agreement that was agreed upon in October, also called the Holbrooke

15     agreement, October 1998.

16        Q.   And when did KVM actually begin work in Kosovo?

17        A.   I believe that the first people on the ground maybe came sometime

18     in November.  I'm not sure about this.  But when I came on the 1st of

19     December, it was still -- there was still only a few people on the ground

20     and it was very much in the build-up phase.

21        Q.   You mentioned that at the beginning there were only a few people.

22     By the -- by March of 1999, can you approximate how many people worked

23     for KVM?

24        A.   I think we were about 1400 people -- 13 or 1400 people that

25     evacuated in March.

Page 3498

 1        Q.   And am I right in saying that you also evacuated in March 1999?

 2        A.   Yes, I did.

 3        Q.   What did you do at that point?  What was your next function, I

 4     guess -- after -- when you evacuated in March 1999, right?

 5        A.   After evacuation, I was part of a continuation of the Human

 6     Rights Division.  Half of us went to Albania and the other half stayed in

 7     Macedonia.  And we interviewed refugees that came over the border in both

 8     countries.

 9        Q.   How long did that last, that work?

10        A.   It lasted a couple of months.

11        Q.   And when that was finished, where did you go?

12        A.   The -- all of the interviews were taken to Warsaw to the ODIHR

13     where I also work now and there there was a team of analysts that were

14     working on compiling all the information into a report which is entitled

15     "As Seen, As Told."

16        Q.   Perhaps this would be a good time.  With the assistance of the

17     usher I'll show you a document -- okay.  In fact what we'll do is give

18     you a little bundle of documents.  And if you could just look behind tab

19     4, please.  For the record, this first page bears the ERN K035-0414.  Ms.

20     Ringgaard, are you familiar with this document?

21        A.   Yes, I am.

22        Q.   And is this the report "As Seen, As Told" that you just

23     mentioned?

24        A.   Yes, it is -- or excerpts from it.

25        Q.   In fact, to be clear, it's excerpts from that report, correct.

Page 3499












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 3500

 1     Ms. Ringgaard, are you -- do you know how this report was compiled?

 2        A.   Yes, I do.

 3        Q.   Could you please just explain that to us.

 4        A.   Partly in this report there is information from the

 5     pre-evacuation period based on the material that we succeeded in

 6     evacuating, and part of it is based on the interviews that we conducted

 7     in the refugee camps where we used standardised forms as well.  And it

 8     was then taken and entered into a database which was one of the tools

 9     that we used, but --

10        Q.   Okay.  And focusing for the moment just on the drafting of the

11     report, were you involved in that drafting process?

12        A.   I was involved in parts of it, yes.

13        Q.   And I guess if you could briefly tell what your involvement was.

14        A.   I was involved in writing the part on Gnjilane and I was involved

15     in some of the editing as far as I remember.  We were a team of 12 people

16     and we worked on various parts of it, all of us.

17        Q.   Okay.  Thank you very much.  And I'm reminded again to try to go

18     slowly.  So if it feels that we're going slowly, it's just because of

19     that.  You can put this document to the side for a moment; we may come

20     back to it later.

21             Ms. Ringgaard, what were you duties upon arrival in December

22     1998?

23        A.   I was asked to start up the Human Rights Division because there

24     was no one else on the ground who had a human rights background.  And so

25     by the middle of December, which is when I actually started in Pristina

Page 3501

 1     after the induction course, we started recruited people from within the

 2     mission, basically, to work in the Human Rights Division.  In early

 3     January, I think, Sandra Mitchell came on as the head of the Human Rights

 4     Division and I was the field coordinator and functioned also as her

 5     deputy.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Where were you based during your time in Kosovo?

 7        A.   In Pristina.

 8        Q.   Did you have occasion to travel outside of Pristina while you

 9     were there?

10        A.   I travelled a lot to all of the regions, yes.

11        Q.   Perhaps it would be helpful if you could explain how KVM's Human

12     Rights Division was organised geographically speaking in Kosovo.  Were

13     there other offices besides in Pristina?

14        A.   The Human Rights Division was organised along the general

15     organisational lines of the KVM, and there were human rights officers in

16     all of the five regional offices.  And by the time of evacuation also in

17     many of the field offices and field stations, there were professional

18     lines of communication between those human rights officers and the

19     headquarters Human Rights Division in Pristina.  But the chain of command

20     went through the regional centres.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Can you approximate how many people were working in

22     the Human Rights Division?  It doesn't have to be exact, but if you could

23     just give us an idea.

24        A.   I can't remember.  It's --

25        Q.   That's fine.  With the assistance of the usher I'll show you a

Page 3502

 1     map just briefly.  This is map 4 from Prosecution Exhibit P1.  And if we

 2     could put this on the ELMO, actually, that would be helpful.

 3             Ms. Ringgaard, if you could look to your left, please, this is a

 4     map of Kosovo showing the municipalities.  You've mentioned five regional

 5     offices.  With the pointer there which is just to your right - I think

 6     the usher will help you - if you could use the pointer and if you can

 7     find them, show the Trial Chamber those regional offices, please.

 8        A.   In Mitrovica and in Peja; in Prizren; in Gnjilane; and I can't

 9     find Pristina.  Right, Pristina -- was that not five?

10        Q.   I think that's five.  That's right.

11        A.   Yeah.

12        Q.   And so it's clear, you yourself were based in Pristina the whole

13     time.  Is that right?

14        A.   Mm-hmm.  Yes.

15        Q.   Thank you.  I'm trying to go slow for the translators.

16     The regional offices that you've identified, when were they set up?

17        A.   They were set up in stages.  I can't remember when -- I mean,

18     even when we evacuated, we were not fully set up.  But they became

19     functional.  The first one was Pristina, and I think the last one was in

20     Gnjilane and became functional, all of them, sometime in January.

21        Q.   Thank you very much.  We're done with the map now in fact.

22     Now I'll ask you a few questions about the way in which KVM, the Human

23     Rights Division in particular, operated.  First, what kind of activities

24     were carried out by the Human Rights Division in their offices in Kosovo?

25        A.   The human rights officers in the regional centres and in the

Page 3503

 1     field offices would receive complaints from the civilian population of

 2     alleged human rights abuses, and they would then seek to verify that and

 3     report back to the headquarters on it.  They would make some

 4     interventions on the local level and in more serious cases or where there

 5     was a pattern identified, the intervention would be made on the

 6     headquarters level.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  Let me focus first just on the first step of

 8     that process, the gathering of information.  Could you explain how that

 9     was done.  Was there any standard procedure for taking -- receiving

10     complaints?

11        A.   We had standard forms.  We had one general form and we had

12     another one for missing persons.  And a lot of the -- a lot of the

13     complaints would come by way of people actually coming to the offices

14     making those complaints, but also when people were out patrolling or in

15     their dealings with the KLA or with the police.

16        Q.   And so that I understand you clearly, these standard forms would

17     be used during the interview to record the information.  Is that right?

18        A.   That's correct.

19        Q.   If we could use Sanction now.  I'm going to show you a couple of

20     documents on the screen of your -- the computer in front of you.  The

21     first one of these bears the ERN U008-1457, which is tab 3 of the little

22     bundle if you prefer to see it in hard copy.

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   If you could just take a look at that page and the two or three

25     pages that follow, which I'll just state for the record are U008-1457 to

Page 3504

 1     U008-1460.  You may remember that I showed you these yesterday.

 2        A.   Yes, I do.

 3        Q.   Now, are these examples of the standard form that you just talked

 4     to us about?

 5        A.   Yes, they are.

 6        Q.   And would these forms have been filled out by Human Rights

 7     Division staff?

 8        A.   Not necessarily, but -- a lot of them would be but also other

 9     staff members took complaints like this.

10        Q.   Would those be other staff members still be within KVM?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Thank you very much.

13             MR. BLACK:  Your Honour, I'd ask that these documents be given

14     the next exhibit number, please.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  This document will be marked P147.

17             MR. BLACK:  Thank you.

18        Q.   You may have touched on this a little bit already, but what kind

19     of sources did you have for information?  Who gave information to KVM?

20        A.   The civilians that we came in contact with and -- but also the

21     KLA or the police or the army would pass information.

22        Q.   And when that information was received and put on one of these

23     standard forms, what was the next step in the process?

24        A.   The human rights officers would either make -- if they could make

25     an intervention on the local level or the completed forms would be filed

Page 3505

 1     for later use and -- or they would report it either for immediate

 2     attention to the headquarters or it would be reported through -- I think

 3     we had weekly reports or biweekly reports where they reported the trends.

 4        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  And just to be clear, you say "reported to

 5     headquarters."  Does that mean reported to you in Pristina?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   After information came to your office in Pristina, was there

 8     another step?  Did you report it to anyone else?

 9        A.   Well, obviously our superiors.  The deputy head of mission and

10     the head of mission, Ambassador Walker, would be aware of the trends and

11     would also be aware of serious incidents.

12        Q.   Did KVM actively investigate the allegations that it heard?

13        A.   Yes.  As far as we could, yes.

14        Q.   And were there any other -- actually, perhaps you've told us.

15     What was the range of follow-up activity available to you?  What could

16     you do when you heard about incidents?

17        A.   Well, we could try and raise our concern with the party

18     concerned, whether it was the KLA or most often as it was with the police

19     or the army.  That would sometimes happen on the local level, but very

20     often it also happened on higher level.

21        Q.   Thank you.  I'll ask you about some of that in a bit.  And in

22     fact, I'll now move from questions about procedure to questions more

23     about substance of the information that you received.  You've testified

24     that KVM collected information about human rights violations.  During

25     what year or years were those violations alleged to have occurred, do you

Page 3506

 1     remember?

 2        A.   From the beginning of 1998 until evacuation.

 3        Q.   Let me just focus for the time being on 1998.  What kinds of

 4     crimes or kinds of human rights violations were alleged to have occurred

 5     in 1998?

 6        A.   We -- first of all, we -- there was so many things happening

 7     while we were there and most of it, really, we were only really able to

 8     respond to started in 1999.  But there were obviously cases that dated

 9     back to 1998 that we took and many of those were missing persons cases.

10     That was also due to a lot of pressure from some groups of Serb relatives

11     of missing persons.

12        Q.   Okay.  I'll get to that in a moment, but just one or two more

13     questions before I do.  Based on the information that you received, could

14     you identify which groups had allegedly been committing these violations,

15     these crimes?

16             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Objection, vague as -- many things.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  I think it should be explored a little yet, Mr.

18     Guy-Smith.

19             MR. BLACK:  Thank you.

20        Q.   You can answer if you can, otherwise, I can try to reframe the

21     question.  However you prefer.

22        A.   Well, I think there were a lot of allegations on both sides.  We

23     did not have the manpower or I think the capability at the time to look

24     into all of these cases.  So we essentially decided that the cut-off line

25     would be the date of the Holbrooke agreement.  And the exception was

Page 3507

 1     missing persons cases.  So those are the only ones that I can speak

 2     about.  And they were -- either they were ethnic Albanians who had

 3     disappeared either through detention or some of them had just gone in to

 4     have their driver's licence renewed and were never seen again; to

 5     allegations of people, both Serbs and ethnic Albanians, disappearing

 6     during crossfire in the fighting between June and September 1998; and to

 7     also allegations against the KLA, that they had taken Serbs into their

 8     custody during that time.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  And I think you mentioned there were

10     allegations against both sides.  You mean the Serb forces and the KLA?

11     Is that what you're referring to?

12        A.   That's correct.

13        Q.   Do you remember when KVM first learned about abductions by the

14     KLA or disappearances concerning the KLA?

15        A.   This was through this group of Serb relatives to missing persons.

16     They were protesting in fairly large numbers outside our headquarters in

17     Pristina in December 1998.  And through that kind of pressure and also

18     pressure I think from Belgrade, the head of mission took up the issue and

19     promised that we would do what we could to look into it.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Do you remember anything about the allegations that

21     were made by this group that came in December 1998?  Maybe I can ask you

22     a couple of specific questions.  Do you remember the time frame of the

23     disappearances they were talking about?

24        A.   Most of them had disappeared between June and September 1998.

25        Q.   And do you remember the location or the area from which they had

Page 3508

 1     been abducted?

 2        A.   Again, those that I remember most because they were the most

 3     vocal were those relatives that were based in Orahovac and who reported

 4     that their relatives during the fighting between June and September where

 5     forces were alternating with control, there were areas that were first in

 6     control of the Serbs and then in the control of the KLA and then back in

 7     the control of the Serb forces.  And during that time most of their -- it

 8     was mostly women.  Their husbands and sons had been taken into custody by

 9     the KLA and had not returned again.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  Is that a convenient time?

12             MR. BLACK:  It certainly is, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Black.

14             We will have now a 20-minute break and resume at 10 minutes to

15     6.00.

16                           --- Recess taken at 5.30 p.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 5.56 p.m.

18             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Black.

19             MR. BLACK:  Thank you, Your Honours.

20        Q.   Ms. Ringgaard, I'll ask it again.  I know it's a bit unnatural,

21     but if you can, please speak a bit more slowly.

22        A.   I will try.

23        Q.   I will try to do the same and maybe one thing that could help is

24     if you just pause a second after my questions.  Try.  I know it's kind of

25     unnatural.

Page 3509

 1             Just before the break you were telling us about this meeting in

 2     December 1998, and you said that the head of the mission took up the

 3     issue and promised to see what could be done.  Did KVM take any action?

 4     What did they do after this meeting to try to address these concerns?

 5        A.   The concerns that the relatives expressed we at first addressed

 6     with Mr. Adem Demaqi in Pristina.  He did not think that there was any

 7     Serbs in detention with the KLA.  And I think that generally both the

 8     ICRC and us and other people on the ground agreed that in whichever

 9     circumstances those Serbs had disappeared it was probably likely that

10     they were no longer alive.

11             After that, we requested a meeting with Zone Commander Remi from

12     the Llap zone --

13        Q.   Let me interrupt you and ask you a few questions about what

14     you've said before we get to where you're going.

15             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Only for purposes of the record, I would object

16     to that last question based on a lack of foundation.  It's an improper

17     opinion.

18             JUDGE PARKER:  Just let me review the answer.

19             I think it's accepted as an account of what occurred rather than

20     as proof of the fact that there were none any longer alive, if that will

21     help you.

22             MR. GUY-SMITH:  It helps me.

23             MR. BLACK:

24        Q.   Ms. Ringgaard, so it's clear, who was Adem Demaqi?

25        A.   May I just clarify as well on the last answer?

Page 3510

 1        Q.   Please do.

 2        A.   I think that that conclusion was more based on people who

 3     generally work in armed conflicts, that the longer people have

 4     disappeared the more likely it is that they are no longer alive.

 5             Adem Demaqi --

 6             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Same objection, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Guy-Smith.  Noted.

 8             MR. BLACK:

 9        Q.   Ms. Ringgaard, now let's move on to that question I asked.  Who

10     was Adem Demaqi?

11        A.   As far as I remember Adem Demaqi was the public director for the

12     KLA and someone that we would be more readily in contact with than the

13     zone commanders.

14        Q.   Did you ever meet with him personally?

15        A.   Yes, once.

16        Q.   When was that?

17        A.   I can't remember.

18        Q.   Were there any further meetings held with this group that

19     demonstrated in December?

20        A.   I think that between the first meeting in December and the time

21     we evacuated there were three or four meetings.

22        Q.   And who from KVM participated in those meetings if you remember?

23        A.   In a couple of them the head of the mission, Ambassador Walker,

24     participated, along with myself and other staff from the Human Rights

25     Division.  And on other occasions, it would just be staff from the Human

Page 3511

 1     Rights Division.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  That leads to my -- maybe my next question.  Did you

 3     personally have any role on collecting information on abductions or

 4     dealing with the issue of abductions?

 5        A.   My role in that regard was to give support to our human rights

 6     officers in all the five regions.  I did not myself take any statements

 7     from persons reporting their relatives missing.

 8        Q.   Did you ever have any contact with families of missing persons or

 9     groups?

10        A.   I -- yes.  I was responsible for coordinating the response from

11     KVM to these groups of relatives of Serb missing.  And in that context I

12     met with them I can't remember how many times, but maybe a couple of

13     times a month.

14        Q.   Thank you.  You mention these groups of relatives of Serb

15     missing.  Were there also groups that dealt with Albanian missing

16     persons?

17        A.   Yes.  There were groups, but they were not as organised as the

18     Serbs.  It was clearly our impression that authorities in Belgrade were

19     seeking to organise them in a manner that would put pressure on the

20     mission and deflect our attention from other issues that were going on in

21     Kosovo at the time.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Just a couple of related questions before we move to

23     a different subject.  Did you ever receive reports of people contacting

24     the families of missing persons and maybe giving information about their

25     missing relatives?  Did you ever hear about occasions like that?  Tell me

Page 3512

 1     if my question is confusing and I can ...

 2        A.   No.  I don't know what you mean.  Sorry.

 3        Q.   Sorry.  Let me ask again.  Did you ever receive reports of people

 4     contacting the families of missing persons and saying that, I have

 5     information about your missing relative, or anything like that?

 6        A.   Yes.  We received reports from these relatives.  They told us

 7     that they had received information from people, they wouldn't tell us who

 8     they were, but they had received information that their relatives had

 9     been seen in Albania or in KLA camps.  But we found out that a lot of it

10     had to do with what -- people who were asking money from the relatives

11     for this kind of information and were abusing the situation for -- to

12     make money, basically.

13        Q.   To your knowledge did any of these reports ever turn out to be

14     true?  Did any of these people come home one day?

15        A.   To my knowledge none of them came home.  And at the time I was

16     there, there were about 150 Serbs missing.  We consistently received

17     denials from the KLA that they had any Serbs in detention.  And on the

18     few occasions where it did happen, it was for a short period of time and

19     the KVM was able to secure their release.

20        Q.   Let me change topics slightly then and go back to -- come to KLA

21     crimes.  And I want to ask you if you ever raised these allegations with

22     the KLA.

23        A.   I personally did not raise it with them, but the liaison officers

24     in KVM to the KLA had raised it with them on a number of occasions and

25     consistently received denials.

Page 3513

 1        Q.   Okay.  And did you personally ever meet with anyone from the KLA?

 2     I think you started to tell us about this earlier.

 3        A.   Yes.  I met -- on one occasion I met with Zone Commander Remi and

 4     on several occasions I met with Rushti Jashari from Petrovo and once with

 5     the zone commander in that area whose name I can't remember.

 6        Q.   Let me focus on the meeting with Zone Commander Remi.  Do you

 7     remember when that occurred?

 8        A.   It was on the 18th of February, 1999.

 9        Q.   I'm sorry.  I just couldn't hear --

10        A.   On the 18th of February, 1999.

11        Q.   Thank you.  If you could perhaps speak up a little bit it would

12     help me and help the interpreters, too.

13        A.   Sure.

14        Q.   Where did that meeting take place?

15        A.   It took place in the headquarters in the Llap zone, Lapastica.

16        Q.   And did you meet with anyone other than commander -- Zone

17     Commander Remi?

18        A.   On that occasion we also met with a military police commander who

19     said his name was Fati and there was some other lower-ranking KLA

20     soldiers present.  I can't remember how many and I don't know who they

21     were.

22        Q.   Okay.  And just briefly do you remember what the topic of

23     discussion was?

24        A.   We were discussing the issue of detention and seeking access to

25     detainees throughout the KLA-controlled area because we had received

Page 3514

 1     reports that they had ethnic Albanians in detention.

 2        Q.   Okay.  I'll ask you to look again at the bundle of documents you

 3     were given.  And if you could look behind tab 2, please.  Maybe Mr.

 4     Younis can put this on the Sanction as well.  It's a document that begins

 5     U008-1461.

 6             Ms. Ringgaard, do you recognise this document?

 7        A.   Yes, I do.  It's their meeting -- minutes from the meeting we

 8     were talking about before.

 9        Q.   And did you draft this report?

10        A.   Yes, I did.

11        Q.   What I'll do now is I'll ask you to read out loud a few sections

12     of this so it's clear what we're discussing.  The easiest way might be to

13     look at the computer screen in front of you because I have them

14     highlighted.  But if you have trouble reading that, maybe the hard copy

15     will help you.

16        A.   "During the first meeting with the ZC" --

17        Q.   Let me interrupt just to be clear so we have it on the record

18     later to look at the transcript.  I just ask you to read the first

19     highlighted section which begins "During the first meeting with the ZC."

20     Please go ahead and read that out loud.

21        A.   I'm sorry.  Which?

22        Q.   The highlighted part that you were reading.

23        A.   Right.

24             "Record of meeting on 19 Feb 99 with the Zone Commander and the

25     Military Police Chief of the KLA in [Realtime transcript read in error:

Page 3515

 1     "Lapusnik"] Llapashtica (Podujevo) Regarding Detention Visits...

 2             "During the first meeting with the ZC, the discussion focused on

 3     the KVM's request for access to all KLA detention facilities and those

 4     being detained.  Access to the detention facility was denied for

 5     'security reasons.'  It was explained that those in the custody of the

 6     KLA are kept in houses and must be moved around depending on the level of

 7     fighting, etc.  Access to a selection of detainees was granted.  The ZC

 8     informed us that we would have access to eight detainees, all Albanians

 9     charged with looting, stealing, and 'collaboration with the enemy.'"

10        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  And I'll just ask you a couple of questions

11     about that passage.  First I would direct your attention to the part that

12     says "it was explained that those in the custody of KLA were kept in

13     houses and must be moved around depending on the level of fighting, etc."

14             Could you explain that, please.

15        A.   Well, they explained to us that because it was an area where the

16     Serbs were conducting what they called winter exercises, which basically

17     was an excuse to attack the KLA in the area and some of the villages in

18     that area.  So there was throughout the period that I was in Kosovo at

19     least sporadic fighting going on.  So it did not sound strange to us.  It

20     made sense that they would have to move the detainees if it was true what

21     they explained to us, that they stayed in close proximity to also the KLA

22     soldiers.

23             MR. TOPOLSKI:  Your Honours, I'm sorry to rise to interrupt.

24     Could I please invite a correction potentially important to the

25     transcript.  Line -- page 65, line 2 record of meeting in 1998 reads in

Page 3516

 1     "Lapusnik."  It should be in Lapastica.

 2             MR. BLACK:  Thank you very much.  I didn't catch that.

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

 4             MR. BLACK:

 5        Q.   Ms. Ringgaard, the second question I have about this passage,

 6     there's a reference to "Albanians charged with 'collaboration with the

 7     enemy.'"

 8             Was the issue of collaborators one that had come up before in

 9     your work in Kosovo?

10        A.   It didn't come up directly in my work but the issue of

11     collaboration was something that was discussed in the KVM because it was

12     quite prevalent, that there were people who would often for money

13     collaborate with the other side.

14        Q.   Did you ever hear about collaborators in connection with

15     detention in any way, other than on this specific occasion?

16        A.   As far as I remember some of the reports that we received from

17     the regions also had references to the fact that some had been arrested

18     by the KLA for collaboration with the enemy.

19        Q.   Perhaps Mr. Younis can enlarge the next highlighted section on

20     the document.  And if you could read that out loud, please, Ms.

21     Ringgaard.

22        A.   "The ZC informed us that mistreatment of detainees/prisoners is

23     forbidden according to the KLA 'Penal Code of War,' and that if

24     mistreatment did happen, disciplinary action would be taken."

25        Q.   How did this issue arise in the meeting, do you remember?

Page 3517

 1        A.   I think we asked them general questions about the treatment of

 2     detainees and asked them about their familiarity of -- with the Geneva

 3     Conventions in this regard.

 4        Q.   Did you ever see this KLA Penal Code of War that's mentioned?

 5        A.   No, we didn't see it.  We asked if we could see it, but in the

 6     time I was there we didn't receive it.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Now, I'd ask you to read the next paragraph which

 8     begins on this page and continues on the next.  If you could read that

 9     out loud, please.

10        A.   "The general detention procedure was described as follows:

11     information is received by the 'KLA police' that a crime has been

12     committed including allegations of collaboration.  An 'invitation' is

13     then given to the person identified as being 'wanted' by the KLA and the

14     person either comes to the 'police' or is taken into custody.  An

15     informative talk then occurs with either the prison commandant or an

16     'investigative judge.'  The person will be placed in detention.  It has

17     not been so far possible for the detainee to chose a lawyer himself."

18        Q.   Thank you.  Who was it who explained this procedure to you, do

19     you remember?

20        A.   That would have been the military police commander.

21        Q.   Do you have any other comments on that before I move on on that

22     particular paragraph?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   If I could ask you again to read the next highlighted paragraph

25     that begins "We were informed that..."

Page 3518

 1        A.   "We were informed that there are three detention facilities

 2     within the jurisdiction of the Lapastica zone.  All are in houses and all

 3     in secret locations.  The conditions of the detention facilities were

 4     described as being the same as for those soldiers, i.e., same food, and

 5     same living conditions.  All detainees receive three meals a day;

 6     blankets and beds; access to toilets and showers; 2-3 share a room; and

 7     they are allowed outside to collect wood and cut wood, walk and do

 8     cleaning."

 9        Q.   There's a description about the houses and the description about

10     the conditions.  Who did you get this information from?

11        A.   Partly from the military police commander, but also directly from

12     the eight detainees that we spoke to.

13        Q.   Tell me briefly how that happened, how you meet with these

14     detainees, please.

15        A.   Well, they were brought into a room next to where we met with the

16     military police commander and we met with them individually and without

17     anyone from the KLA present.

18        Q.   And what did these detainees tell you about their conditions, do

19     you remember?

20        A.   They did not report any mistreatment and basically corroborated

21     what the military commander had told us.  We recorded their names and

22     their age and where they were from and basically what they had told us

23     about the condition and the charge.  They were all pre-trial detainees.

24        Q.   Were you ever able to follow up and take further action regarding

25     these eight detainees?

Page 3519

 1        A.   No.  We asked if they would be allowed to be given paper on which

 2     they could write something to their families, but we didn't -- that was

 3     -- request was denied.  And also they had only described in general terms

 4     where they were from.  It's very difficult to find addresses in Kosovo in

 5     some of the smaller villages.  So we were not able to match the names

 6     against the list of missing persons that we had, so no.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  I'll ask you to read the next highlighted section,

 8     please.

 9        A.   "Some detainees are kept in solitary confinement, usually those

10     held in serious offences related to collaboration.  No one has been

11     executed."

12        Q.   Do you remember how this topic arose during the meeting?

13        A.   No, I don't remember how it arose.

14        Q.   And then finally one more highlighted section on this document.

15     If you could please read that out.

16        A.   "The military police commander also stated that there have been

17     10-15 Serbs who have 'gone through' detention facilities.  When asked

18     where they are now, he stated that they were let go.  1 Serb was released

19     about 2-3 months ago in cooperation with USKDOM."

20        Q.   Did you ask the Commander Remi or the military police commander

21     whether they had any Serb detainees there at the time that you were

22     there?

23        A.   Yes, we did.

24        Q.   What was the response?

25        A.   They said they didn't have any.

Page 3520

 1        Q.   Thank you very much.

 2             MR. BLACK:  I think we're finished with that.  Your Honour, if it

 3     would be given the next Prosecution Exhibit number, please.

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  P148.

 6             MR. BLACK:

 7        Q.   Ms. Ringgaard, did you meet with members of the KLA after this

 8     meeting.  I believe you began to tell us about this earlier.  When was

 9     the next meeting you had?

10        A.   The next meeting was about a week later and was in Petrovo.  We

11     basically tried first to speak to those that we had the best relationship

12     with and that we knew within the KLA to discuss this.  And one of them

13     was Rushti Jashari in Petrovo.

14        Q.   And who was Rushti Jashari?

15        A.   Rushti Jashari was also in charge of public affairs for that area

16     for the KLA and he met often with people from KVM and members from the

17     press, et cetera.

18        Q.   And I'll ask you again in your bundle of documents, it's again

19     behind page 2 -- behind tab 2 and it's just the page behind those that we

20     were looking at before.  At the top it has a number U008-1463.  Did you

21     find that okay?

22        A.   "Arlind also said that he had worked as a prison guard" --

23        Q.   Sorry, I want to ask you a few questions before you start to

24     read.

25        A.   Sorry.

Page 3521

 1        Q.   First of all, do you recognise this document?

 2        A.   Yes, I do.

 3        Q.   Did you draft this document as well?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And is it a record of the meeting that you just mentioned to us

 6     about a week after the meeting with Commander Remi?

 7        A.   It is.

 8        Q.   Okay.  Now please read the highlighted section.  Thank you.

 9        A.   "Arlind also said that he had worked as a prison guard in Drenica

10     for a few months.  He informed that he had guarded the two Serb

11     journalists and that the Commander had demand commanded that the two

12     prisoners be treated well and served coffee every morning.  He also

13     admitted that Serb policemen who 'had gone through the system' had not

14     been treated in quite the same way as other prisoners.  He declined to

15     elaborate."

16        Q.   Thank you.  You don't need to mention his last name if you know

17     it, but generally who is the Arlind that's referred to?

18        A.   I don't know.  He was a young, very young UCK soldier.

19        Q.   Okay.  Do you remember what exactly he told you about Serb

20     policemen "going through the system"?

21        A.   No.  I don't really remember.  I think -- I don't know.  I think

22     we sort of took it with a grain of salt.  I think he was eager to -- he

23     was very passionate about the cause and eager to impress us.

24        Q.   Okay.  I think that's all for that document.

25             MR. BLACK:  And if it could be admitted into evidence as well

Page 3522

 1     please, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  This document is P148 -- excuse me, P149.

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  149.

 5             MR. BLACK:  Thank you.

 6        Q.   Ms. Ringgaard, before I move on to another document, were you

 7     ever permitted on these or any other occasions to visit a KLA detention

 8     facility?

 9        A.   No, we were not.

10        Q.   One of the documents that we just looked at mentions a request

11     for a list of KLA detainees.  Was that request ever fulfilled?  Did you

12     ever receive such a list?

13        A.   No, we didn't receive such a list.  I think that was -- would be

14     a decision that would have to be made above the level of zone commander.

15     And since we -- the situation increasingly deteriorated towards the end

16     of February and we then evacuated by the 24th of March, the issue was

17     overshadowed by other more compelling events on the ground.

18        Q.   Thank you.  I'm going to show you another document now -- in

19     fact, we've already looked at it.  In your bundle it's behind tab 4.

20     This is the "As Seen, As Told" report.  And it will also be on Sanction.

21             MR. BLACK:  Your Honours, the first page of the report is ERN

22     K035-0414.  And we're going to turn and look directly at K035-0498 and

23     the following pages.

24             MR. MANSFIELD:  Your Honour, may I just raise a preliminary point

25     about this.  I think the witness has already indicated that she edited

Page 3523

 1     it.  It was produced by a team of 12 and it's -- I would object to this

 2     going in as part of her evidence unless there's any material in it,

 3     particularly footnotes, which she's gathered herself or has firsthand

 4     knowledge of.  Otherwise, it's complete hearsay from start to finish.

 5     And I appreciate of course you weigh -- you may weigh that in a different

 6     way, but there may be other ways of adducing the document, but I submit

 7     not through this witness unless in fact she has direct evidence to give

 8     about the opinions that are in it as well as the alleged facts.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Black.

10             MR. BLACK:  Yes, Your Honour.  My intention was to direct her to

11     a few passages and ask her if that was consistent with her own experience

12     and if she knows about what's said there.  In addition, she did say she

13     was involved in the production of this report.  And thirdly, the fact

14     that it is hearsay of course doesn't make it inadmissible, although it

15     could of course be considered by Your Honours when you determine the

16     weight.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  It hasn't yet been tendered, but if it

18     comes to be the Chamber would receive the document.  The hearsay is not a

19     formal objection, although highly relevant to the reliance we may place

20     upon it.  The witness is one of a team of 12 editors and appears to have

21     personal knowledge of the process by which it was produced and of

22     sufficient detail relevant to the content to enable its reliability to be

23     examined in the course of cross-examination.

24             Yes, Mr. --

25             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Excuse me, Your Honour, I would be raising a

Page 3524

 1     slightly different objection based upon the manner in which Mr. Black

 2     suggests he's planning on using this document, which would be that it's

 3     impermissibly leading.  If you take a look at what he suggested he was

 4     going to do with the document he says:  "My intention was to direct her

 5     to a few passages and ask her if that was consistent with her own

 6     experience."

 7             That would be leading.

 8             MR. MANSFIELD:  Your Honour, I hesitate to add -- I was going to

 9     follow it up with a version of that objection.  If you look at her

10     evidence so far, she doesn't have any experience as such of what is

11     claimed in this particular document.  So I appreciate the answer might be

12     no to the questions, but I would ask for care in the approach to this

13     document.

14             JUDGE PARKER:  I looked in case Mr. Topolski wanted to join in.

15             MR. TOPOLSKI:  I'm so impressed with what I've heard from this

16     side of the court, I've got nothing to add to it.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  It does seem that you might get evidence that

18     could be of greater use to the Chamber, Mr. Black, if you were to

19     approach the subject matter of each of these extracts, as it were, from

20     the other end, perhaps finishing up with the extracts.

21             MR. BLACK:  Your Honour, I -- I think I understand the direction

22     that you're leading, but I think it will be a much faster process.  I'm

23     not sure that -- I think that she can explain whether or not she has

24     personal knowledge of it and whether or not he agrees with it or --

25             JUDGE PARKER:  What about identifying each particular subject and

Page 3525












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 3526

 1     seeing what is the witness's personal knowledge and then whether or not

 2     she can confirm or otherwise what might be the extracts to which you wish

 3     to take her on her personal knowledge which has been identified?

 4             MR. BLACK:  Thank you, Your Honour.  And I would -- not to

 5     re-open the argument, but I would note that some of the passages from

 6     this are directly referenced to the reports, for instance, that we have

 7     just discussed which were drafted by her.  So it is by no means that she

 8     does not know about --

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  The document we have admitted will be admitted.

10     No need to re-argue that in case we change our mind, Mr. Black.

11             MR. BLACK:  Thank you, Your Honour.

12        Q.   Ms. Ringgaard --

13             JUDGE PARKER:  I've usually found that shortens argument that

14     way.

15             MR. BLACK:  It's very effective on this occasion.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  You bring us some relaxing entertainment at the

17     end of a long, hard day, Ms. Ringgaard.

18             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters request that Ms. Ringgaard

19     read the reports slowly.  Thank you.

20             MR. BLACK:

21        Q.   Just passing along a message that the interpreter ask that when

22     you read you read slowly.

23        A.   I will.

24        Q.   And I would mention if it is any assistance we do at least have

25     Albanian versions of the documents -- okay.

Page 3527

 1             Ms. Ringgaard, earlier you discussed information that you

 2     received about the procedure by which people were arrested or detained.

 3     As far as you know, were these -- how is the decision-making process done

 4     in order to identify people who should be arrested or questioned?

 5        A.   I can't answer that.

 6        Q.   Do you know if these would have been -- was there a policy or

 7     were these case-by-case basis?

 8        A.   It was my impression it was case-by-case, but I can't know.

 9        Q.   Earlier we discussed a KLA penal code of war.  I appreciate that

10     you didn't see it.  From your conversations with people in the KLA, what

11     did you understand its topics to be, its content not in specificity, but

12     just the areas?

13        A.   We didn't discuss the content.

14        Q.   Did it seem to be related to the procedures that he talked to you

15     about or not or you don't know?

16        A.   No, it seemed to be related but we -- and I can't remember the

17     details.  I mean, we didn't discuss the details of the code.  It seemed

18     to us that in the absence of any policing authority in the areas that

19     they controlled, that they were exercising a de facto policing function,

20     so that it was a combination of a criminal code and something more

21     related to the conflict.

22        Q.   Okay.  And when you say "they were exercising de facto policing

23     function," who do you mean?

24        A.   The KLA.  I mean there weren't anyone else to --

25        Q.   No, I understand that.  Could you be more specific as to who

Page 3528

 1     within the KLA, or did you know?

 2        A.   I don't know.

 3        Q.   Earlier you mentioned -- I believe you mentioned the Geneva

 4     Conventions; correct me if I'm wrong about that.  Did the topic of Geneva

 5     Conventions and the laws of war ever come up with KLA and your dealings

 6     with them?

 7        A.   I can't remember specifically, but I would assume that we had

 8     brought it up with them during our meeting.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Well, I don't think we need -- if you can't remember,

10     that's fine.  Did the KLA ever express a position to you as to whether or

11     not they would abide by the laws of war?

12        A.   I can't remember specifically.  It was not generally -- I mean, I

13     did not have those kinds of conversations with people in the KLA.  I

14     mean, I only met with one or two zone commanders, but on -- and only on

15     two occasions.

16        Q.   I'll move on to a slightly different topic.  We discussed the

17     issue of collaborators.  Did you ever learn what it was that might lead

18     to someone being accused of collaboration, what kind of activities?

19        A.   What some people reported in these missing persons reports was

20     that they had had some kind of dealing with Serbs.  It could be -- this

21     is what the family reported to us, that they had been doing business with

22     them or they had been helping them or they had been requested not to

23     engage with the Serbs.  But that was I think typical for both

24     communities.  It was very for mixed communities at that time, and I think

25     neither the Serb side nor the KLA side were interested in or saw the

Page 3529

 1     mixed communities as a danger.

 2        Q.   Thank you very much.  Earlier you mentioned -- and I'm moving on

 3     to another topic again now.  Earlier you mentioned a number of Serb

 4     people that were missing.  Do you remember the figures for how many Serb

 5     and/or Albanian civilians were missing while you were there?

 6        A.   I think for the Serbs it was around 150 and by the time this

 7     report was being compiled, obviously the number of missing ethnic

 8     Albanians were in the thousands.

 9        Q.   Okay.  And what was the source of those numbers?  Who did those

10     numbers come from, do you remember?  Did KVM compile their own numbers --

11        A.   We corroborated very closely with ICRC in compiling lists of

12     missing persons.

13        Q.   Earlier I asked you also about Adem Demaqi and you said you met

14     with him you thought on one occasion.  Do you remember anything

15     specifically what the topics of conversation were then?

16        A.   Not specifically, but it was in relation to try and respond to

17     the pressure from the relatives of the missing Serbs to seek some kind of

18     answers from the KLA as to whether they had had -- whether they had had

19     some of them in their detention -- whether they till had some in

20     detention and to clarify maybe how many had been killed in crossfire

21     during that period.

22        Q.   And was he able to give you any information in that regard?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   Did the issue of the fate of Serb prisoners, was that discussed?

25        A.   I think that he -- I don't know if I can say this again without

Page 3530

 1     an objection from the Defence that there was a general --

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  Don't be intimidated by those fine-looking men

 3     over there, Ms. Ringgaard.

 4             THE WITNESS:  No.  I hesitate to say there was a general

 5     assumption, but I think we thought -- I think he also thought that the

 6     situation was such in which there were many ways in which people could

 7     have disappeared in that time and one was in crossfire and another one

 8     was killed by one or the other side in whatever circumstance.  We had no

 9     way of finding out.  But the fact that none of these people had come back

10     made at least a lot of us draw the conclusion that probably they were not

11     alive.  And I think Adem Demaqi agreed in that.

12             MR. BLACK:

13        Q.   I think I understand.  Thank you.

14             MR. BLACK:  Your Honour, before it slips past me, could these

15     documents that we've not been discussing be given an exhibit number?

16             MR. MANSFIELD:  Well, I'll allow Mr. Topolski --

17             MR. TOPOLSKI:  No, no --

18             MR. BLACK:  My understanding is they would be admitted and I

19     proceeded on that basis.  I hope that wasn't a misunderstanding.

20             MR. MANSFIELD:  I understand Your Honour's point about hearsay.

21     And at some stage it may become admissible by a witness who really can

22     speak to it and obviously a certain amount of additional weight can be

23     given to it.  But at the moment all the questions have been very

24     interesting, but none of them arise out of the document.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Topolski, we wouldn't want to cut you off.

Page 3531

 1             MR. TOPOLSKI:  There's a joke in there somewhere, but it's too

 2     late in the day for that.  No, I have nothing to add to that submission.

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

 4             MR. BLACK:  Do you --

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  What was said was meant.  The document will be

 6     received into evidence if tendered; it is now tendered.  It is admitted.

 7     The weight is an entirely different issue.  And out of concern for Mr.

 8     Guy-Smith's objection, we have encouraged Mr. Black to take an order

 9     which explored more adequately the personal knowledge of this witness

10     about certain subjects.  That does not mean that we will not allow the

11     sort of exercise that he was about to venture upon, but the weight that

12     we might attach to that will be influenced by what has now occurred.

13             MR. BLACK:  Thank you, Your Honour.  And it might be helpful if I

14     ask a few questions about the way this report was compiled at this point

15     just so it's clear.

16        Q.   How many people worked on compiling "As Seen, As Told"?  Do you

17     remember?

18        A.   I think 12 people.  A few outside or external consultants were

19     involved as well and I was only one of several editors.

20        Q.   What was their resource?  What did they use to compile this

21     report?

22        A.   We used all of the basic documents, all of the forms of

23     complaints, both pre-evacuation and those that we had collected during

24     the period of the refugees, both in Macedonia and Albania.  We had hard

25     copies -- the originals.  We had all of those and we went through all of

Page 3532

 1     those in order to compile this.  And all of it has been made available to

 2     this Court.

 3        Q.   Thank you very much.

 4             MR. BLACK:  If I could have an exhibit number, please.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  P150 for the next document.

 6             MR. BLACK:  Thank you.

 7                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 8             MR. BLACK:  I apologise for the interruption there.

 9             Your Honour, with your indulgence, if I could have two minutes to

10     look at this document before I move on.

11             Okay.  Thanks.  I'll move on.

12        Q.   Ms. Ringgaard, thanks for your patience.  Now, you've testified

13     that KVM received information on abductions by the KLA, including

14     so-called collaborators.  Based on the information that you received and

15     that KVM received, were you ever able to determine whether this was the

16     work of, say, rogue elements, to use a phrase, or was there a broader

17     policy at work here?

18        A.   The information that we had mainly through our liaison officers

19     to the KLA was that they were aware that they were rogue elements and

20     that they also sometimes found it difficult to control all instances of

21     personal revenge and cases like that.  So -- and because there was

22     sporadic fighting and the KLA was under military pressure as well.  I

23     don't think it was our impression at least that it was a policy as such,

24     but that it happened more in cases responding to specific issues on the

25     ground.

Page 3533

 1        Q.   Earlier you talked about trends and that your job was about

 2     spotting trends.  Did you ever raise with the head of the mission any

 3     trends regarding KLA and abductions?  Was that something that came up?

 4        A.   It was raised through the liaison officers as a concern that we

 5     had, but frankly speaking in the bigger picture it did not warrant as

 6     much attention as the vast numbers of complaints that we had from the

 7     ethnic Albanian population against the Serb authorities in Kosovo.

 8        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  Just a couple more topics before I conclude.

 9     Did you ever hear of a person named Fatmir Limaj while you were in

10     Kosovo?

11        A.   Yes, I heard his name mentioned.

12        Q.   Can you tell us in what context you heard it mentioned.

13        A.   I heard it mentioned in the context of a commission I think that

14     was established in Orahovac to examine what had happened during those

15     months of fighting in June -- between June and September in 1998.  And I

16     remember that the Serbs in the area were upset that he was serving on

17     this commission.  But that's all I remember.

18        Q.   Just so I understand it, do you know why they were upset that he

19     was serving on the commission?

20        A.   I think what they told us -- not what they told me, what they

21     told the human rights officer in Orahovac was that they thought that he

22     was a member of the KLA and had some responsibility and would be able to

23     get answers on the fate of those missing Serbs but was not being

24     forthcoming in providing them.

25        Q.   But you don't know any more specifics about that?

Page 3534

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   Did you ever hear about a detention facility in the village of

 3     Lapusnik?

 4        A.   I did not hear about it during the time that I was in Kosovo in

 5     1998/1999; subsequently, yes.

 6        Q.   Okay.  When did you hear about it?

 7        A.   I can't remember.

 8        Q.   But for the time that you were in Kosovo you didn't hear about a

 9     detention facility in Lapusnik.  Is that right?

10        A.   Not as far as I remember, no.

11        Q.   Thank you very much.  I appreciate your patience.

12             MR. BLACK:  Your Honour, just for the record and I hate to go

13     back to this document, but the Exhibit P150 I'm told by Mr. Younis I

14     should make clear, it's all the documents behind tab 4 in the bundle.

15     And it might make sense for me to read the ERN for the transcript.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  That is what has been received for the exhibit.

17             MR. BLACK:  Thank you.  Let me just read those numbers for your

18     future reference.  It's K035-0414; K035-0498 to 0500; and K035-0561 to

19     0563.  No further questions, Your Honour.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

21             I wonder whether it would be regarded as a practical time to

22     break now.

23             MR. MANSFIELD:  [Microphone not activated]

24             JUDGE PARKER:  Well, I was offering a gentle lifeline --

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

Page 3535

 1             MR. MANSFIELD:  It would be more useful to the witness if I ask

 2     those two questions because it may be that no one has any questions and

 3     she can go.  It may be.  It depends on what my questions are.  I better

 4     get it right then.

 5                           Cross-examined by Mr. Mansfield:

 6        Q.   Just in relation to you hearing about the name Fatmir Limaj -- I

 7     represent Fatmir Limaj.  Do you think you may have misheard,

 8     misunderstood, because I want to make it clear on his behalf, that he

 9     wasn't part of any commission of which you speak.  So could it be you've

10     associated a name in the wrong context after this span of time?

11        A.   I remember the name and -- in the context of these issues in

12     Orahovac.  But it could be that it was discussed whether in some relation

13     to this commission.  But the name I remember, yes.

14        Q.   The name --

15        A.   But I could be wrong on him serving on the commission.

16        Q.   That was all.  The next question:  I accept that you would have

17     heard about Lapusnik since leaving Kosovo.  In fact, I think you were

18     recently asked about this name, that is Lapusnik, because you've confused

19     it with another place.

20        A.   Exactly, yes.

21        Q.   And then you went on to say that you've heard of Lapusnik but not

22     in connection with detention matters.

23        A.   That's correct.

24        Q.   That's all I ask.  Thank you.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Mansfield.

Page 3536

 1             Mr. Guy-Smith.

 2             MR. GUY-SMITH:  No questions.

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Topolski.

 4             That's Mr. Mansfield you should look at, Mr. Topolski, not me.

 5             MR. TOPOLSKI:  I've spent too many years of my life looking at

 6     Mr. Mansfield.

 7                           Cross-examined by Mr. Topolski:

 8        Q.   Yes, I have one or two, Madam.  I represent Isak Musliu.  Are you

 9     aware of the period of time that we are concerned with and do I

10     understand your evidence to be that predominantly your service in Kosovo

11     was between the 1st of December, 1998, and your evacuation in March 1999?

12     That was the first tranche, as it were?

13        A.   That's correct.

14        Q.   You returned, did you, after the bombing?

15        A.   I returned in January 2000.

16        Q.   January 2000.  So the time we really need to focus upon were

17     those, two, four months really that you spent in Kosovo at the back-end

18     of 1998.  I think you may be able to answer this document -- this

19     question with a yes or a no.  Did you become aware during your time there

20     of allegations being made that MUP officers were offering inducements to

21     Albanians in return for information regarding the KLA?  You're nodding.

22        A.   Absolutely, yes.

23        Q.   Absolutely.

24        A.   That's correct.

25        Q.   And were you made aware of a number of examples of such behaviour

Page 3537

 1     by MUP officers?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And other than inducements, and I have in mind, for example,

 4     offers of passports and visas to go wherever they liked, were you also

 5     being made aware of threats made to Albanians in return for information

 6     regarding the KLA?

 7        A.   Threats, yes, definitely.  Yeah.

 8        Q.   As far as the documents that you have given -- provided us are

 9     concerned and I have in mind, for example, that which appears behind tab

10     3, an example of a missing person report, would the Chamber be correct in

11     proceeding upon the basis, Ms. Ringgaard, that this information in this

12     example is of course based entirely upon what the reporter was telling

13     one of your colleagues?  That's the position, isn't it?

14        A.   That's correct.  This is -- of course, yeah.  This is what the

15     family is telling --

16        Q.   Yes.  So where for example in the example you've provided at

17     81458, the second page, the reporter says to your colleague:  "I know of

18     no reason why the KLA should detain a named individual."

19             That of course is being recorded based solely upon what the

20     reporter is saying.  Am I right?

21        A.   That's right.  And we were aware that sometimes they were not

22     telling us the truth, that they were afraid or that they just did not

23     want to disclose the reasons if they knew them.

24        Q.   Yes.  Are you saying in that answer that there were situations in

25     which it did indeed subsequently emerge, for whatever reason, that people

Page 3538

 1     were not being truthful with you about the reasons for abduction?

 2        A.   I'm not personally aware of any particular cases, but yeah.

 3        Q.   All right.  I just want to clarify something you said at really

 4     two different places today.  You were being asked about detentions and so

 5     on.  And you said, and I hope I quote you accurately:  "In the absence of

 6     police authority in the area, they," that is to say the KLA, "were

 7     exercising de facto policing functions."

 8             By "the area," are you referring to those parts of Kosovo with

 9     which you and your colleagues were familiar or a specific part of Kosovo?

10        A.   No, I think I said in the areas of which the KLA were in control.

11        Q.   And those of course, was it within your experience, as we've

12     heard from other witnesses, fluid?  Those areas would change hands?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Sometimes frequently?

15        A.   During the time we were there I think it was -- it was at least a

16     bit more static than it was earlier.

17        Q.   Yes.  And lastly this:  As far as collaborators were concerned,

18     you've given some evidence about that.  The reality is, is it not, Ms.

19     Ringgaard, that if a Serb collaborator was sitting there with one of your

20     colleagues, he/she was hardly likely to tell KVM that?  That would be the

21     reality, wouldn't it?  They're not going to sit there and tell you, I'm a

22     collaborator and that's what's happened, are they?

23        A.   No, but I don't think that's -- no.

24        Q.   That's all I ask you.  Thank you very much indeed.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Guy-Smith.

Page 3539

 1             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Yes, if I might.  I have no questions to ask;

 2     however, I was planning on interposing an objection with regard to this

 3     same document 147.  If it is going to be relied upon by the Chamber for

 4     any other purpose than it being an example of the kind of reports that

 5     were taken --

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  Could I suggest that be dealt with when we next

 7     resume, having in mind the hour?

 8             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Absolutely.  That will probably be at some time

 9     from now.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  I'm about to find out.

11             Mr. Black, any re-examination?

12             MR. BLACK:  No.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

14             Ms. Ringgaard, you have I think the record of being the quickest

15     witness we have managed in this trial.  May we thank you for the trouble

16     you've gone to to be here and the assistance in that regard.  And you may

17     return to your normal activities.

18             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  If you don't mind waiting there for a moment we'll

20     tidy up business and then you're free to go.

21             Mr. Whiting, tomorrow what is there?

22             MR. WHITING:  Your Honour, with the time period --

23             JUDGE PARKER:  You can be very blunt.

24             MR. WHITING:  Okay.  We don't have another witness because we

25     either had to choose between a long witness and a short witness and we

Page 3540

 1     chose a short witness, as you see, because didn't want to go over.

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  Very well.  Because of the hour, then, Mr.

 3     Whiting, we cannot hear out Mr. Guy-Smith.  The tapes and the whole of

 4     the administrative procedure require us to finish.  But if you at least,

 5     Mr. Guy-Smith, can remember your point.

 6             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I will.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  And raise it when we resume, which will be week

 8     Monday at 2.15.

 9             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I will raise it then.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  If there is no other matter, we will adjourn until

11     Monday week.

12                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.02 p.m.,

13                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 21st day of

14                           February, 2005, at 2.15 p.m.