1 Tuesday, 22 March 2005
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon.
7 If I could remind, you, sir, of the affirmation that you made at
8 the beginning of your evidence. It still applies.
9 Mr. Mansfield.
10 WITNESS: Witness L-64 [Resumed]
11 [Witness answered through interpreter]
12 Cross-examined by Mr. Mansfield:
13 Q. Witness, I'm Michael Mansfield. I represent, together with Karim
14 Khan, Mr. Fatmir Limaj who sits behind me.
15 I want to start by just reminding you of 2003 of the occasions
16 when you made statements and you were interviewed by the Office of the
17 Prosecutor for the purposes, as it turned out, of these proceedings.
18 Now, I just want to remind you of the dates, first of all. The first
19 occasion was the 27th of May for which we have a record when it would
20 appear that you spent something like two hours being interviewed. The
21 second occasion was spread over two days in June, on the 17th and the
22 18th, nearly all day on the 17th, and for an hour or so on the 18th. And
23 then finally towards the end of 2003, starting in December, but spreading
24 into 2004, you were interviewed -- and I won't give you all the dates
25 unless you'd like them, but it's 12 days resulting in a 45-page
2 Now have you followed so as far?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. According to the records that we have of those occasions, nowhere
5 in any of those interviews or statements do you volunteer as part of your
6 background that you were a heroin addict or that you had participated in
7 drug trafficking. Now, the first point is: Do you realise that there is
8 no record within those occasions of you mentioning that? Do you realise
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. The next question is: Given what you did mention, why did you
12 not mention that at all?
13 A. Because I was not dealing with it at that time. And I didn't
14 think it was important to speak about something which was bygone.
15 Q. You see, you did deal with things that were bygone in those
16 statements and interviews, didn't you?
17 A. Yes, that's true.
18 Q. So why not deal heroin addiction and heroin trafficking?
19 A. I already explained to you that I didn't deem it important to
20 talk about a personal issue such as that.
21 Q. Or is it, Witness, that you have lied about yourself on many
22 occasions and about other people, including the person I represent,
23 Fatmir Limaj. Now, do you agree, first of all, that you have lied about
24 yourself and, in particular, your heroin addiction?
25 A. I have not lied about any of them. Either about myself when I
1 was asked. I have told -- I have answered telling them whatever I knew
2 about myself.
3 Q. The point I wish to make to you straight away is that during the
4 period of which we have a record, that is, the 27th of May through to
5 June 2003, during that period you were still using drugs, weren't you?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Are you sure?
8 A. Yes, I'm very sure.
9 Q. In that period, I suggest also you were trafficking in drugs,
10 dealing in drugs, weren't you?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Once again, are you sure?
13 A. I'm very sure.
14 Q. Yes.
15 A. I have already stated that in some cases -- there were cases
16 after the new year of 2003. I can't tell you for sure once, but not in
17 June. Or in May.
18 Q. Well, I'll have to return to those because I'm going to suggest
19 clearly, you are lying to this Tribunal about those matters today. Do
20 you follow?
21 A. Yes. I am following you very well, sir.
22 Q. And so I can make it abundantly clear, I suggest you have in fact
23 been trafficking in drugs back to a time before the war in the 1990s,
24 haven't you?
25 A. No. No. I wasn't dealing with drug trafficking during that
1 time. I knew about it, but I didn't engage in it.
2 Q. And I want to make it clear also that it doesn't just involve
3 you. It involves your family as well, doesn't it?
4 A. No. That's not true.
5 Q. I'm going to ask you carefully, therefore, a series of questions,
6 some of which relate to this in 2003.
7 February 2003. Do you remember that month at all?
8 A. I don't know what you mean, sir.
9 Q. Do you know somewhere called Bond Steel?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Have you been there?
12 A. No.
13 Q. You've never been there?
14 A. I have been in the vicinity of that place.
15 Q. What do you mean by "in the vicinity"?
16 A. You asked me whether I have been there, and I have answered you
17 that I passed nearby that place.
18 Q. Have you been detained there at all?
19 A. No, never.
20 Q. Have you ever told anyone that you were detained there, held
22 A. No. Once when I passed by, they stopped -- detained us for a
23 couple of hours, but no, I was not held there.
24 Q. Who stopped you?
25 A. The KFOR police and army.
1 Q. Did they questioned you?
2 A. Everything happened outside, in the street. Whatever they asked
3 us it was there.
4 Q. But they questioned you?
5 A. I believe so.
6 Q. What did they question you about?
7 A. About weapons. Mainly it was about weapons.
8 Q. Why did they say they needed to ask you about weapons?
9 A. Because it was a search on their part. They searched all the
10 cars that they stopped. They were looking for something, I believe.
11 Q. Were you with anyone?
12 A. Yes. There was someone with me.
13 Q. Who was that? And again, if it's a member of your family or
14 anybody that might identify you, you needn't use the name, but otherwise
15 I don't think there is no problem.
16 A. I don't remember who was with me. We were returning from a
17 coffee. I don't remember which place we were.
18 Q. And when was this that you were stopped and questioned about
20 A. This happened in 2003, but I don't recall the date.
21 Q. Would it be in February?
22 A. Yeah, probably in February. I think so. March or February.
23 Q. Did you engage a lawyer at that time?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Did you contact a lawyer at that time?
1 A. No. Not about this question.
2 Q. About what question?
3 A. I don't remember to have contacted some lawyer about that at that
5 Q. Did you contact a lawyer in February of 2003?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Now, again I'm going to go carefully. Were you in 2003, leaving
8 aside yourself, facing a serious problem with a member of your family?
9 And I'm not going to identify in public for obvious reasons.
10 Was there a problem in 2003 in the same month with a member of
11 your family?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. It was a serious problem, wasn't it?
14 A. I don't know if I could say serious or how serious that was.
15 Q. What was it to do with?
16 A. It had to do with the arrest in a place, in a public place at
17 night of -- and the imprisonment of that person under the allegation of
18 heroin possession. But in fact nothing was found on him. But because of
19 the fact that I was being surveyed and the police even once reprimanded
20 me or warned me about that, this happened very shortly after that.
21 Q. This person was dealing in heroin, wasn't he?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Are you telling the truth?
24 A. Yes.
1 A. I don't remember the date.
2 Q. This person confessed to the police that he was dealing in
3 heroin, ten grammes of it, and he named where he got the heroin, didn't
5 A. That's not true. I fold you that nothing was found on him, on
6 that person or even nearby that person and that seven or eight persons
7 were detained.
8 Q. Do you know what was found on him then?
9 A. I said nothing. Nothing. It might have been found on other
10 persons, not on him. All of them were arrested, so because of the --
11 because I was considered a suspect he was too was detained. But nothing
12 was found on him and they were maltreated by the police. But nothing was
13 proven against them.
14 Q. This person had to go to court, didn't he?
15 A. Yes, that's true.
16 Q. Did he receive a sentence of imprisonment?
17 A. Yes. Yes. Two others were released because of being under age.
18 Whereas this person had -- was above 18 years of age and so he was
19 imprisoned. The others were released on probation.
20 Q. And what was he being sentenced to two years for?
21 A. He was not sentenced to two years.
22 Q. What was he sentenced to?
23 A. I think he was sentenced to 16 months or something like that.
24 Q. Very well. What was he sentenced for, for the 16 months?
25 A. I told you that he was found at the wrong place in the wrong
1 time. The suspicion was against me he a relative. He was close to me.
2 I told you that some days ago I was contacted by two policemen and they
3 asked -- all the questions had to do about me and not about that person.
4 But since he was found with those friends of his, who called him on the
5 phone, Come over they told him. And when he went there the police
6 arrested him without finding anything on him. But because of the
7 sentence, they took the word of the two minors who said that -- that It
8 was not mine, it was his. What was found.
9 MR. WHITING: Excuse me, sorry to interrupt. Just out of an
10 abundance of caution I would ask if we could redact line 3 of page 7.
11 MR. MANSFIELD:
12 Q. I'm going to put to you what he was found with, this person --
13 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. It will be redacted.
14 MR. MANSFIELD: So sorry.
15 Q. I suggest to you that you are telling a complete pack of lies
16 about all of this.
17 A. I told the truth.
18 Q. This person was found and accepted possession of a bag containing
19 cubes of hashish and nine paper deals of heroin, part of a lot of ten
20 grammes that he had obtained. Are you saying you know nothing about any
21 of this and it's all to do with you?
22 A. I already told you what is true. I told you that nothing was
23 found on this person. What was found was found on the two minors and the
24 other persons were arrested. And all of them were arrested.
25 And it's not true that there was hashish. That is the first time
1 for me to hear that, sir.
2 Q. Do you know someone -- I'm only going to use the first name for
3 the moment. Do you know somebody named Alban, A-l-b-a-n?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Was one of the two under aged called Alban?
6 A. I don't think that Alban was one of the minors. I don't know how
7 they were called.
8 Q. Do you know someone called Ramiz?
9 A. I don't remember. I don't remember. Of -- none of the arrested
10 that I know of was called Ramiz.
11 Q. No, you are right. Did you go to court in relation to this?
12 A. No.
13 Q. The person who provided the drugs for the people arrested along
14 with this person was called Ramiz. He wasn't arrested. Do you follow?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. I want to deal with these two individuals for a moment. The
17 Alban that you say you know, what is his second name, or does he have a
18 nickname by which he is known?
19 A. I don't know.
20 Q. Are you saying you don't know his other name?
21 MR. WHITING: Excuse me.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm telling you I don't know whom
23 you are talking about.
24 MR. WHITING: I'm just wondering when dealing with specific names
25 which could identify the event and other persons if just those questions
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 could be in private session.
2 JUDGE PARKER: I myself was getting concerned here, Mr.
3 Mansfield. If you're pursuing other names at the moment I think it might
4 be desirable to go into private session.
5 MR. MANSFIELD: Yes, very well.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Private session.
7 [Private session]
11 Page 4586 redacted. Private session.
11 Page 4587 redacted. Private session.
11 Page 4588 redacted. Private session.
21 [Open session]
22 THE REGISTRAR: We're in public session.
23 MR. MANSFIELD:
24 Q. Witness, would you bear with me while I summarize, without giving
25 any names, the matters that I have been asking you about concerning two
1 particular individuals with whom I suggest you had a connection through
2 heroin. And that that connection arose both in 2002 and in the months
3 leading up to your arrest in July 2003.
4 Now I want to just pause for a moment and ask you this: You have
5 said in relation to this many times that you in fact gave up your
6 addiction or that you stopped being addicted by January, February 2003.
7 Do you recall you said that on many occasions?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now, I want to ask you about this carefully. Before you came to
10 give evidence, has the -- anyone on behalf of the Office of the
11 Prosecutor questioned you carefully about your use of heroin and your
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. When was that?
15 A. For the first time it was when someone asked a question and on
16 the day when I was arrested I didn't have a meeting with someone from the
17 OTP. Four days after my arrest, after 72 hours, when I went to the
18 police station for a statement that was the procedure followed at the
19 time, there in the corridor I met with someone from the OTP here. And
20 the discussion we had was in relation with this. It was a brief
21 discussion, but it was held in the office of the inspector who I think
22 was a German and another Albanian inspector.
23 Q. Now was -- as far as you could tell, what were the questions
24 about at that time? Because I'm asking you about whether they asked
25 about your addiction and your use of drugs. What did they ask you about
1 on that occasion?
2 A. These sort of questions: Have you used it, when did you use it,
3 and whatever you know in relation to this issue, it is good that you tell
4 us here. It is good that you tell this inspector the truth. These were
5 the words, and the discussion ended.
6 Q. Did they ask you to see your medical records on this issue?
7 A. I told them that, but they did not do any analysis. They didn't
8 carry out any analysis. I had the therapy with me. It was in my pocket,
9 my personal therapy that I used.
10 Q. Now, what I want to just ask you about is something you've told
11 this Tribunal a few days ago now about this question of addiction. Now,
12 just bear with me this is your testimony. So it's clear where it comes
13 from, the day 51 and it's page 4325 at line 6. Just want to read you
14 what you said: "Since that time before the new year, I don't remember
15 very well. It might have been once or twice, small quantities. But I
16 went to the doctor again and consulted him. So it was from before the
17 new year up to February," and so on.
18 Do you remember saying that?
19 A. Yes, that's right.
20 Q. And in addition to that, you were asked the other day again about
21 this matter, and now the day 52. And you were -- you mentioned on this
22 occasion a psychologist and an assistant with long hair working in
23 Pristina and you named the clinic. Do you remember doing that a few days
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And you were asked if you would help by trying to remember the
2 name of this doctor or psychologist who advised you and who would have
3 records about your addiction, asked if you could remember the name. Do
4 you remember being asked that?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Have you remembered the name?
7 A. I know that I have consulted several doctors. I know that the
8 person who I searched for for consulting purposes is in the Pristina
9 hospital and the name of the doctor is (redacted) Another doctor who is
10 younger than (redacted), I consulted him as well and without giving him my
11 name or the name of the person. He didn't want to give any consulting.
12 This is how it was. The treatment, that office said that they are very
13 secret -- discreet. That private clinic, they said they didn't want any
14 names, any family names and that is why I chose it.
15 I would ask the Judges to make a redaction regarding the -- what
16 I said about my work.
17 JUDGE PARKER: The name of the doctor will be redacted.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And what I said about wearing the
19 same uniform. The white uniform. Not the name, just the word "white
21 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, that will be done.
22 MR. MANSFIELD:
23 Q. Would it be possible to, as it were, ascertain the doctor and
24 obtain your medical records? Would that be possible?
25 A. If I didn't do that, I would have been a user even today.
1 Q. What was the question?
2 A. I gave an answer to your question. If I didn't visit that doctor
3 and other doctors, most probably I would have been an addict even today.
4 It is not a job for someone who has been an addict for a short or long
5 time to get over and done with that. Only someone who has been one can
6 know that.
7 JUDGE PARKER: I would mention for the record that no reference
8 appears in the transcript to a white uniform that I have discovered. But
9 the name of the doctor has been removed.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 MR. MANSFIELD:
12 Q. Now, Witness, the point of these questions, so you understand, is
13 not about your situation now, but about your situation from January at
14 least January 2003 through to July 2003 to ascertain whether you were
15 using drugs in that period, whether you were no longer an addict and what
16 the records indicate about all of this. Because the Prosecutor doesn't
17 appear to have asked. So I'm asking you finally this: Would you have
18 any objection to us obtaining the records relating to you in 2003?
19 A. I don't think that there was any objection for you to obtain any
20 kind of documents. You are free to do so. What I know is true. I have
21 said that, I have said in the beginning I'm telling it now. I have
22 always told the truth and although it's not something that I like to
23 discuss, I will tell the truth. Not only in January but even before the
24 new year in 2003 I visited those doctors, in October, in November.
25 MR. MANSFIELD: Your Honour, may we go into private session just
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 so I can ascertain a detail.
2 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
3 [Private session]
13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: We're in public session.
15 MR. MANSFIELD:
16 Q. Did you have to pay for the private treatment?
17 A. Yes. I didn't pay with the hospital, but I did leave some money
18 without them asking, for the visits that I made.
19 Q. You indicated before to the Tribunal that this was expensive
21 A. This is true.
22 Q. How much did you pay for it?
23 A. Several times I secured means and medicaments. None of the
24 medicaments could be obtained in Kosova. Some of them were obtained in
25 Croatia and most of them in Germany and Turkey. They were really
2 Q. I'm sorry, it will take a little time on this basis. Do you have
3 difficulty in understanding my questions?
4 A. Your question was how much. I don't know how much. They were
5 expensive. Everything was expensive. I couldn't go and get them and buy
6 them myself. I had to use others and other channels. Someone who could
7 bring them to me.
8 Q. Do you think you have got a good memory?
9 A. I think I do. I know that heroin makes the white cells --
10 decreases the number of white cells in the brain, but I still think I
11 have a good memory.
12 Q. Then just give us a clue as to how much money had you to spend on
13 the treatment, and then we're going to ask where you got the money from.
14 Do you follow? So let's have a figure for how much you spent on the
16 A. I follow you very well. On the first occasion, approximately the
17 expenses were of the amount 700 to 800 Euros.
18 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
19 Q. And the second occasion?
20 A. Some cost 50 Euros, some 200, 300 Euros. Those tablets that I
21 had to take, again, around 700 Euros. Then the travel costs for the
22 people who obtained them for me. These are not cheap medicaments,
23 especially not in Kosova.
24 Q. So would it be fair to say that you have spent at least -- at
25 least -- 1.000 Euros on this private treatment, at least that figure?
1 A. That's true.
2 Q. I want to turn, to, I suggest, another of your major problems in
3 2003. You were unemployed, weren't you?
4 A. In 2003 -- in 2003, I left my work voluntarily. I couldn't go to
5 work and allow people to see me knowing my own state. I don't know in
6 which month, but it was in 2003 that I stopped going to work. I think it
7 was in March or January, February, 2003. This can be verified.
8 Q. I'm sure that you can, so I'd like you to be very careful.
9 When did you last work before 2003? Work in the sense of paid
11 A. I said that I got paid until 2003. I don't remember how many
12 months in 2003. I know that I asked for an unpaid leave from work, for
13 some time.
14 Q. Where do you say you obtained at least 1.000 Euros for your
16 A. I always had money, sir. And I have people who can secure me
17 money even today. Not only 1.000 Euros.
18 Q. And is the source of the money that you always have heroin
20 A. Never. I told you that I have real estate. And I know people
21 who have money.
22 Q. Are you saying these people have lent you this money?
23 A. Even today I can take money from them as a loan. As much as I
25 Q. Are the people who lent you the money in relation to the
1 treatment of at least over 1.000 Euros, have they been repaid ever by
3 A. No. Some yes, and some no.
4 Q. How much are you owing? Today. How much are you owing?
5 A. A small quantity.
6 Q. How --
7 A. 200, 300 Euro, probably.
8 Q. How much were you owing at the beginning of 2003 before the
9 Office of the Prosecutor began interviewing you?
10 A. I don't think that amount was more than 1.000 Euros. When I
11 left, I left behind two vehicles in a good working state. So this
12 covered for that --
13 Q. I want to ask you about a few personal matters so I ask to go
14 into private session again. I'm sorry about this.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
16 [Private session]
11 Page 4600 redacted. Private session.
11 Page 4601 redacted. Private session.
11 Page 4602 redacted. Private session.
11 Page 4603 redacted. Private session.
11 Page 4604 redacted. Private session.
25 [Open session]
1 MR. MANSFIELD: Once again so it's clear I have been asking
2 details about -- sorry.
3 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.
4 MR. MANSFIELD:
5 Q. Once again, so it's clear, I have been asking questions about
6 another individual with whom you agree you did have dealings in heroin in
7 2002. And also dealing with where you lived and who owned the apartment.
8 Where you lived or rather your family lived in part of 2003.
9 Now, I want to just before the next break, still dealing with
10 2003. Did it come to your attention in this same period, January through
11 to the spring of 2003, that you yourself were a suspect in relation to
12 war crimes?
13 A. During January or -- are you asking for 2003? I did not
14 understand the question, whether it was in January or in general through
16 Q. I am sorry, I thought the question was clear, but I'll put it
18 I was dealing with the same period. January were the words I
19 used, January 2003 to the spring of 2003, March, April, May. Did you
20 realise in that period that you yourself were a suspect in relation to
21 war crimes?
22 A. No. Only when I received the summons.
23 Q. Now, I want to ask you about that. When did you receive the
25 A. I received the summons two or three weeks before I reported
1 there, meaning on the 27th. Two weeks before the interview.
2 Q. Did you receive it at the address in Pristina, the apartment that
3 belonged to the Serbian? Did you receive it there?
4 A. The summons arrived on that address. That wasn't a Serbian
5 property; it was a property of an Albanian, as I said earlier. The next
6 day the summons was brought to me in the village.
7 Q. Who brought it to you?
8 A. Someone, a member of my family.
9 Q. Now, what did the summons say?
10 A. It said that I was to report there after a couple of days. I
11 don't remember the date. I had to report to a place in Lipjan.
12 Q. Yes. What did it say was the reason that you had to report?
13 A. The summons contained my name and last name, and the words
14 "suspected of war crimes."
15 Q. Did it indicate more than that about the war crimes?
16 A. Yes. I remember year 1998 and 1999. I don't know the other part
17 of the content. There was some other items as well. It was signed and
18 it was sealed.
19 Q. Do you still have a copy of the summons?
20 A. No. I left it in Pristina.
21 MR. MANSFIELD: Your Honour, I wonder if that is a convenient
23 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, I think it would be, Mr. Mansfield.
24 We are asked to have a 30-minute break for technical reasons, so we will
25 resume at 10 minutes past 4.00.
1 --- Recess taken at 3.41 p.m.
2 --- On resuming at 4.14 p.m.
3 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Mansfield.
4 MR. MANSFIELD: May do I a test run because I gather there are
5 problems elsewhere about voices being heard. So that is the statement.
6 We'll now switch off.
7 Okay. A further test run.
8 Witness, I wonder if you would just assist. This is for audio
9 security. I'm just going to ask you to say we've just had a break, so
10 can you just say we've just had a break as the answer to this question.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Would you be kind enough to say the full sentence,
13 "We have just had a break."
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We just had a break.
15 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
16 JUDGE PARKER: I think you are being encouraged to have a slow
17 trigger finger on the microphone, Mr. Mansfield. Not to have it turned
18 on until the witness has finished the previous answer.
19 MR. MANSFIELD: Yes. The finger [Microphone not activated]
20 JUDGE PARKER: I have great experience with the switch here, yes.
21 MR. MANSFIELD:
22 Q. Now, Witness --
23 MR. MANSFIELD: May I just check, are we in public session? Yes,
24 we are, yes.
25 Q. I was asking you before the break about a summons that was
1 received, or that was received by your family, anyway, two to three
2 weeks before the 27th of May and then delivered to you. It was a summons
3 indicating that you were to be interviewed as a suspect. And I have been
4 kindly provided with a copy of it now and indeed it does specify that you
5 are to appear on Friday, the 23rd of May, 2003, at 9.00 to be interviewed
6 as a suspect. And it indicated that the topics will concern personal
7 information in general, military background, and activities of the KLA in
8 1998 and 1999.
9 Now, do you remember that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. When you read that, did you think you had a problem in the sense
12 that you had committed any war crimes or any crimes at all?
13 A. I wasn't clear. I thought that I might be suspected, but I
14 believe that I would clarify that, but that I might be a suspect. And
15 that was how it was. I didn't feel comfortable.
16 Q. What did you think you might be suspected of?
17 A. I thought that someone might have provided inaccurate information
18 about me and that I had to clarify that. I don't know whether I would be
19 able to do that or no. I didn't know what to do. I didn't know what it
20 all involved.
21 Q. Well, just reflecting on this period. You are looking at a
22 summons. Never mind what somebody might have said about you. Had you
23 assaulted anyone during the war in a way that you shouldn't?
24 A. No, I didn't.
25 Q. Just think about it, please. Even at this stage, on your own
1 recollection had you assaulted anyone in a way that you should not have
2 assaulted them during the war?
3 A. I don't think so. I don't think I have ever done that. Even
4 though it was a wartime. But I tried to stick to the front line. I
5 tried to be as successful as possible in that activity.
6 Q. I'm going to put some specific words to you to see if they ring a
8 Did you at any time during the war, with others, beat the living
9 daylights out of two prisoners?
10 A. No. I don't remember that.
11 Q. Did you, with others, ever beat the soles of the feet of a woman
12 during the war?
13 A. I know that I threatened her. But I heard that someone had
14 beaten her on the soles of her feet. But it was not me. Maybe I gave
15 her some slaps. I don't remember. Maybe once. But not to hurt her in
16 any way. Not to cause any injuries to her. But I know that she was
17 beaten on the soles of her feet.
18 Q. Did you ever use your rifle butt in any way on anyone who was
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Yes. So would it be right to say that, in fact, whatever anybody
22 else may say about you there were things you had done on your own
23 recollection during the war that you should not have done?
24 A. At that time it was considered normal. Those were normal
25 occurrences. Yes, I had done them.
1 Q. Do you think you should have done them?
2 A. I don't know.
3 Q. Well I'd like you to answer the question. Do you think you
4 should have done them?
5 A. No, I don't think I should have done them.
6 Q. And you knew that in May of 2003, that there were things that you
7 should not have done and that you might be questioned about them, didn't
9 A. I didn't even think of that in 2003. Even later. Because they
10 were not important things. There are other things more important to be
11 remembered, so I didn't pay any attention to these things. I remembered
12 them later. I simply -- if I might, I simply thought that it was a
13 question of some -- some murder because that act with the use of the butt
14 of the rifle or something like that. I don't think that mattered a lot.
15 Q. Now, when you arrived for the interview, the first thing that
16 happened was a series of questions or discussion about why you were a
17 suspect; is that right?
18 A. It was a discussion why I was there, why I was summoned, not why
19 I was a suspect.
20 Q. Did anyone -- first of all, who conducted the interview or rather
21 the questioning to begin with?
22 A. The questions were done in a small room, in the presence of an
23 interpreter and two people from the Prosecutor's office. Before they
24 started recording the interview, we had the -- this discussion. I can't
25 tell you how long it took us, but we wanted to clarify this.
1 Q. Now, you have told us about this earlier, on an earlier day. And
2 you said you thought - so it's clear where it's coming from, it is day
3 51, page 4320, at line 22 - you indicated that you thought it was one or
4 two hours of discussion before the interview was recorded.
5 Now, is that right?
6 A. Yes. Yes, more or less. That was it.
7 Q. Now in the one or two hours, did anybody make sort of record of
8 what was being discussed?
9 A. They took notes, but I don't think it was recorded. At least
10 nobody told me that it was being recorded.
11 Q. Did anyone say that when questioning a suspect there should in
12 fact be an audio or video recording?
13 A. Later, yes. I don't remember when it was, but they told me that
14 we have to record it.
15 Q. Did they tell you why they had not recorded the first hour or
17 A. No. Because I had asked the question with relation to the
18 summons. I said what it means, why I was there and so on. And this is
19 what we discussed.
20 Q. Did they not tell you why they thought you were a suspect when
21 they sent the summons? The summons being dated the 15th of May. So it
22 wasn't long before, about a week before, they thought you were a suspect.
23 Now did they tell you why they thought you were a suspect?
24 A. They didn't say anything, but they mentioned the fact that it was
25 a mistake. And it seemed to me that they read it because it was in
1 Albanian. They asked the interpreter whether it was translated in that
2 way, and they were sure it was like that.
3 Q. In other words, there was no mistake in the translation, was
5 A. No, there wasn't.
6 Q. So, again, during the one or two hours did somebody tell you why
7 they thought you were a suspect, properly translated?
8 A. No. They merely told me that it's -- made a mistake. That a
9 mistake has been made in the summons. This is what they told me.
10 Q. What kind of mistake did they say it was?
11 A. In relation to the word "suspect" of war crimes during 1998 and
13 Q. Well, to do that would have taken as long as I have asked you,
14 namely, three minutes to clear up that difficulty. What took two hours?
15 A. I didn't keep the time. I don't know exactly. I said one or two
16 times, I know that it was more than two or three minutes. It might have
17 been an hour or more. But we discussed also that -- whether -- I mean,
18 we discussed about the fact that they had to record the statement and all
19 these things. I don't remember anything specific to have been said
20 during that discussion.
21 Q. Did they mention whether anybody in particular had made
22 allegations against you?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Now, I want to ask you this on a more general basis.
25 Since that time, have you been offered any kind of immunity from
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
2 A. With the exception of what they did when I was in prison,
3 something which I didn't ask them to do for me, I don't think of any
4 other immunity that they have offered me. Then afterwards, about -- it
5 was -- it was about my departure from Kosovo, if you mean this.
6 Q. No. I will be precise. I don't mean that. We'll have to get to
7 that at a later stage. I mean at any stage after May, when you were
8 first interviewed, has anyone said to you, Whatever you say, you won't be
9 prosecuted? For the war. I make it clear, anything in the war.
10 A. No. No, this. No. They didn't say this, never.
11 MR. MANSFIELD: Your Honour, may I ask that the notes that have
12 been referred to in relation to this session be disclosed, and I'll move
14 Q. I want to ask in particular now about the beginning of the
15 interview that took place on the -- on the 27th of May, and it may be
16 easier at the moment if I do it in private session.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
18 [Private session]
11 Pages 4616-4620 redacted. Private session.
11 [Open session]
12 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session.
13 MR. MANSFIELD:
14 Q. Once again, just to summarise, I have been asking about questions
15 about an interview on the 27th of May and details about your background
16 in that interview and your whereabouts in the week before the 27th of
18 Now, I want to just move on in the chronology. Do you agree that
19 another area of interest for you in the past has been guns?
20 A. From time to time, yes. Not on regular basis, but from time to
21 time, whenever there was an opportunity, yes.
22 Q. And is it also right that your interest in guns occurred during
23 the 1980s and 1990s?
24 A. No. This is not true. From my -- age of 14 I had my personal
25 weapon. I even know the make of that weapon. I bought it and -- by
1 selling even my own clothes.
2 Q. Were you dealing in weapons, trading in weapons, before the war?
3 A. What has been translated to me was "when I was dealing with
4 this." Is this correct?
5 Q. Yes. I will be more precise. Were you in fact involved in the
6 illegal importation of weapons into Kosovo in the 1980s and the 1990s?
7 A. In 1989, I secured an amount of weapons for myself, and in 1990 I
8 sold some weapons.
9 Q. I'm going to put the precise words again, even more specific.
10 From 1990 onward, were you in involved in the illegal import of weapons
11 into Kosovo?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Well, I'm going to read you to save another document. This comes
14 from the statement that you made in December/January, that is, December
15 2003 and January 2004 dealing with this aspect of it.
16 MR. MANSFIELD: So if anyone wishes to follow, it's paragraph 11.
17 Q. What is written down is that "From 1990 onwards I was involved in
18 illegal import of weapons to Kosovo, together with my good friend." And
19 then you mention Alushani. And then you indicate where the arms came
20 from: Croatia, Serbia, Albania. And that you only soldier weapons to
21 persons that you trusted.
22 Now, is that true?
23 A. Very true. But even here it is said that it is in 1989. After
24 1989. Before that I didn't I didn't know the person you mentioned. This
25 is the year that I meant, in the 1990s.
1 Q. Just to remind you. It's still on the screen the specific
2 question, precise words: "From 1990s onward from you involved in the
3 illegal import ever weapons into Kosovo?" And you said "No." Didn't
5 A. Sir, import means when you bring in a great amount. It has never
6 been a great amount that I imported. People bought weapons and those
7 that I trusted, I sold weapons to them, from time to time.
8 Q. I suggest to you: For a moment you thought you could lie, didn't
10 A. No. This is what I said before. The word "import" came in use
11 several times, and as import, I -- what I understand is when I go there
12 myself and take it myself and procure it myself, bring it home myself.
13 Q. Before the war, you were arrested on a large number of occasions,
14 weren't you? Detained on a large number of occasions.
15 A. I was detained once and they kept me in for two days and I was
16 arrested once. It's not many times.
17 Q. I'm not going to mention his name in public, but there was a
18 particular police officer who you knew in that time quite well. I'll put
19 the context because he practiced and went hunting on a piece of land you
20 know about. Do you know who I mean?
21 A. There are many people that I knew. I can [microphone not
22 activated] I can't thing of who it can be, but maybe it's better if you
23 are concrete who you mean.
24 MR. MANSFIELD: Your Honour, may we go into private session.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 [Private session]
11 Page 4626 redacted. Private session.
14 [Open session]
15 THE REGISTRAR: We're in public session.
16 MR. MANSFIELD:
17 Q. Now, you have already indicated to the Tribunal that you were
18 arrested. You thought it was 1994, and then sentenced to three months
19 imprisonment in 1995 for a weapon found in your car. Is that right?
20 A. That's correct. I don't know if it was 1994, but I think 1995 is
22 Q. Now, you were asked about this when - in other words, the
23 background to this - in the interview in May 2003, were you not?
24 A. I don't remember. For the moment, I don't remember. But it
25 could be yes, there were many questions, have you been convicted, when
1 were you convicted.
2 Q. And there were questions and answers in particular about this
3 conviction, were there not?
4 A. If there were any, I believe these questions were recorded.
5 Q. And for these purposes, I'm just checking that there is
6 nothing --
7 MR. MANSFIELD: Your Honour, I will be careful. I think it can
8 all be done in public session. It's on the fourth page of the English
10 Q. Do you have the Albanian still in front of you, please?
11 A. [No interpretation]
12 Q. And it's on the fourth page of yours where there is a question
13 about this. I'm starting with the question: "Were you ever arrested
14 ever by the Serb police." It's a third of the way down on both your
15 copy, the Albanian and ours.
16 Do you have that? The question was: "Q. Were you ever arrested
17 by Serb police?" "A. Yes." Have you got that passage?
18 A. Yes, I haven't found it, but I know it is yes, that I have been
20 Q. Yes. It's -- the question, of course, as we'll come to, what you
21 say about this on different occasions.
22 It's a third of the way down. I'd like to you find the question
23 so you can follow it in the Albania and we can follow it in the English.
24 So it's as I say, a third of the way down. It's fifth answer by you on
25 page 4. So if you count down 5.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. I'm just going to read it through with you and I'll stop when I
3 get -- just this is the context. You say "Yes."
4 "Q. Was this -- any of these times for a longer time arrests?"
5 "A. We were subject to constant searches and harassments from
6 1981 on. So all of us except for my mother had the opportunity to be
7 locked up at some point.
8 "Q. Okay. Were you arrested from your home and taken to a
9 detention or --
10 "A. So they would -- they would come and search into our house
11 and then pick one of us, take to prison one sister one time and then one
12 of my brothers and then me and so on.
13 "Q. Okay. What's the longest period you were arrested for?
14 "A. Well, the longest period, the longest term was in 1996 about
15 two months."
16 MR. MANSFIELD: So I'm slowing.
17 "And 22 days. So I was sentenced to a longer term. But I bought
18 off my sentence.
19 I'm going to pause there for a moment. What did you mean you
20 "bought off" your sentence?
21 A. I refer to the lawyer. After I received a three-month
22 imprisonment I paid the lawyer, he made an application with the higher
23 court and then the sentence was lowered.
24 Q. So how much did you serve in the end?
25 A. Two months.
1 Q. So let's just go on. So you actually -- going back to the
2 question. Actually, you got the sentence: "Mm-hm. I was of course -- I
3 was acquainted in trial because I was given a sentence of three months,
4 because I -- I bought off my sentence. I was supposed to get a longer
5 sentence then."
6 What was the sentence for? Do you see that question? Then you
7 have got an answer:
8 "A. Mm-hm. They would conduct searches, mostly for illegal arms
9 possession or for illegal propaganda material.
10 "Q. Okay. And this was -- did they find a weapon or something
11 and this was the reason for?"
12 Your answer was:
13 "A. No, never."
14 Do you see that?
15 A. Yes, yes.
16 Q. Well, that wasn't true, was it?
17 A. I need to read the paragraph above.
18 Yes, this is how it is.
19 Q. Yes. This is how it is. But it wasn't true what you were saying
20 at that stage in this early interview in May of 2003, was it?
21 A. I don't know what the question was and what time it referred to.
22 Here it says, No. The truth is that they found on one occasion a rifle,
23 hunting rifle, from that period, meaning from 1981 and onwards. And the
24 revolver later on. And I think that this should be somewhere in the
25 statement although here it is, No, never.
1 Q. You see, there is in fact in this interview no indication that
2 they have found a weapon. In other words, you are, I suggest, pretending
3 to the interviewer at that point that in fact they hadn't found a weapon
4 and you go on and talk about a hunting rifle. You weren't arrested for a
5 hunting rifle, were you?
6 A. No. My brother was.
7 Q. I want to ask you this: At the time that you were giving these
8 answers in May of 2003, at that very time, you still possessed weapons
9 illegally, didn't you?
10 A. During which period?
11 Q. The period of this interview, which was May the 27th. Even then
12 you possessed illegal weapons, didn't you?
13 A. I don't think so. I don't think I have said that. As I said in
14 the beginning, I've always loved weapons. I don't know how I have said
15 this. I even love weapons today.
16 Q. Yes. And all I'm saying that is in May of 2003 you loved weapons
17 such that you illegally possessed weapons in May 2003, didn't you?
18 A. Sir, maybe even today I am in a position of illegal possession of
19 weapons. I do love weapons, and -- whether I have a document or not for
20 its possession. This is a fact.
21 Q. Now, I'm not going to ask where you are today other than in The
22 Hague, obviously. Do you at this moment whilst giving evidence to this
23 Tribunal, wherever you are in the world, do you illegally possess weapons
25 A. No. We are not speaking of today or here because I have passed a
1 screening. But I was referring to the post-war period. I do love
2 weapons and this might only be suggestions. Someone might suggest that I
3 have a weapon.
4 Q. I'm looking at what you actually said moments ago.
5 You said: "Sir" -- you can read it on the screen. Well, sorry,
6 you can't read it on the screen -- "Sir, maybe even today I am in a
7 position of illegal possession of weapons." That's what you said.
8 A. This is misinterpreted and this what you can verify. Today means
9 the time now, not the -- this moment, but the time now the time after the
10 war, these years. And I did not say that I have a weapon, but I said
11 that even today I might have a weapon. And what someone is suggesting is
12 not important and does not verify the fact whether I have a weapon or
13 not. I do love weapons.
14 Q. It's a simple question: Do you today possess a weapon?
15 A. No. You can verify this. I didn't refer to today.
16 Q. Now I'm going to -- again dealing with this incident before the
17 war, I'm going to ask you -- and I'll do it in public to begin with, but
18 I may have to go into private session.
19 Have you ever spoken to a journalist about this arrest before the
21 A. Can you be more concrete? I never spoke to a journalist. But
22 you're saying before the war, right?
23 Q. Yes. It's been published since the war, but it was a
24 conversation - and I will be more precise - with an author who is a
25 woman. Now, does that help you?
1 A. No, not at all.
2 MR. MANSFIELD: Your Honour it may be sensible to go into private
3 session so I can be more precise.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
5 [Private session]
11 Pages 4634-4638 redacted. Private session.
14 [Open session]
15 MR. MANSFIELD: May I just once again indicate that in private
16 session, I have asked you about a book in the form of a report published
17 in 2003 which appears to mention you and a conversation with you, and you
18 have denied that any such conversation took place.
19 A. That's correct. It is true that such a conversation did not take
21 Q. I want to pass from that. We were dealing with you and weapons
22 before the war.
23 Since the war, in other words, from 1999/2000 onwards, did you
24 still possess weapons?
25 A. I know only a few in Kosovo who didn't possess a weapon after the
2 Q. Yes, that isn't the question. The question is: Did you.
3 A. I did.
4 Q. A --
5 A. A trophy weapon.
6 Q. And what trophy weapons did you possess after the war?
7 A. A weapon that is no longer used.
8 Q. Yes, kindly describe it.
9 A. Yes. A hunting rifle produced in 1910, out of use, handmade. It
10 was unique. And then a pistol not in use, damaged, but because of the
11 person who possessed that before me, that's why it was in my possession.
12 Q. Now, which weapon was possessed by someone before you and that's
13 why it was in your possession?
14 A. My father.
15 Q. Yes, sorry. Which weapon?
16 A. The second weapon that I mentioned, the pistol.
17 Q. And the hunting rifle, is that -- has that always been yours?
18 A. No. It was my possession but it wasn't always mine.
19 Q. Who did it belong to?
20 A. To my uncle.
21 Q. I ask you carefully: Are you quite sure that the hunting rifle
22 belonged to your uncle?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And did you still possess these weapons in 2003?
25 A. I'm speaking about 2003. I did have these weapons, yes.
1 Q. Where did you keep them?
2 A. Out of use. I kept the pistol out of reach of everybody. And as
3 for the hunting rifle, I kept it inside, hanging on the wall.
4 Q. Yes. Were the premises that these weapons were kept in Pristina
5 or in the village?
6 A. In the village and in Pristina. The roughly, the hunting
7 roughly, in Pristina as well.
8 Q. So just to be clear: Both weapons were kept not only in Pristina
9 but also in the village when you moved there?
10 A. I didn't carry these weapons with me. These were not weapons
11 that could be used. But I said that one of these weapons I kept in
12 Pristina as well. And later on, after some time I kept both of the
13 weapons in the village.
14 Q. And just before the next break with His Honour's permission.
15 These weren't trophy weapons; they were in use, weren't they?
16 A. I said these were not weapons that were in use. If they were
17 worked on and if some parts were added to them they could have been
18 operational, but for that moment they were not in use. Any craftsman can
19 work on a weapon.
20 Q. I'm going to suggest to you that you're lying about that as well,
21 aren't you?
22 A. This is again your opinion.
23 Q. In this case -- I'm not suggesting that the others were my
24 opinion. In this case it is certainly not my opinion. These weapons
25 have been examined, haven't they?
1 A. Yes. You can even read the expertise about these weapons and it
2 shows that clearly there has been work done with them, that a part has
3 been added and that one of the weapons after several tries fired. And
4 the other as well, after some parts were added it fired too. At that
5 time they were not in use and you could not just put in a bullet and use
7 Q. Did you have life ammunition to go with these weapons?
8 A. No. The hunting rifle did not have ammunition. I don't
9 remember. As for the other, in my house it was found. I had different
10 sorts of ammunition. I had ammunition from 7 millimetre to 11 lying in
11 my cupboard.
12 Q. Did you have live ammunition that would fit the pistol?
13 A. The entire ammunition that was taken from my place was useable.
14 From 645, 662, 9 millimetres and 12.7.
15 Q. Is the answer that you did have ammunition, live, that would fit
16 the pistol?
17 A. Out from that live ammunition there was ammunition for that
18 pistol that I had as well. And the entire ammunition was live
19 ammunition. I told you that I had it as a collection.
20 MR. MANSFIELD: Your Honour, would that be a suitable moment?
21 JUDGE PARKER: We will resume at 6.00.
22 --- Recess taken at 5.39 p.m.
23 --- On resuming at 6.02 p.m.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Mansfield.
25 MR. MANSFIELD: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Q. Just before the break we were dealing with weapons you agree you
2 had in your possession, and I just want it make it clear to you that what
3 you have said about them and their use, once again I suggest to you,
4 particularly in relation to the pistol, is lies. The pistol was in
5 proper working order with ammunition that could be fired from it, wasn't
7 A. No, that is not true. It would have been better if you -- if you
8 got that document I received from the expertise.
9 Q. As it happens I do have that document. I think it's the same
10 one. It is an expertise document or expertise report about the pistol
11 and the shotgun.
12 MR. MANSFIELD: And so it's clear, for those who have it, the
13 reference for this it's 00079781. And it --
14 Q. Did the report that you had contain photographs? Is that the
15 same one? Photographs of the weapons and the ammunition?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Would you just bear with me. There are two reports. One deals
18 with weapons, and the other deals with drugs. But at the moment I'm
19 concentrating on weapons in fact found in July when you were arrested.
20 You do appreciate that?
21 Sorry, there may be a misunderstanding. I want to know that you
22 do appreciate what I'm talking about, namely reports on weapons found
23 in your possession in July 2003. Do you appreciate that?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Would you bear with me because I don't think there's an Albanian
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 version, or at least if there is I don't have it. Would you bear with me
2 while I read to you - it's very short - the expert's conclusion
3 concerning the pistol, which he calls item number 2 which is a
4 Czechoslovakian pistol. He says, and this is dated the 28th of July,
5 2003, shortly after your arrest: "I conducted test firing by the
6 submitted pistol with four 7.65 by 7 millimetre calibre cartridges of
7 item number 4. It fires semi-automatic. According to the results of
8 test firing, all of the parts of the submitted weapon of item number 2" -
9 that's the pistol - "are functioning properly and no obstacles were
10 observed about operating the pistol during the tests."
11 I pause there. The expert does not suggest that they had to do
12 anything to make it work. Do you understand this report?
13 A. Yes, I understand. But I didn't receive this report. I received
14 another report. It had another content.
15 Q. Are you saying that the other report said something different?
16 A. I don't know. I did know about that -- your report. But the one
17 that I received said that the hunting gun -- after they put the bullet
18 inside, they managed to fire -- they managed it to fire after four times.
19 And in the case of the pistol, they put a magazine. After that they
20 could fire with it. And this differs from what you told me.
21 Q. Well, if there is a different report concerning this pistol,
22 relating to 2003 in July what was found, then obviously I would be
23 grateful to see if. But so far as we know there is no other report on
24 this pistol.
25 MR. WHITING: The Prosecution is not possession of any other
1 report. This is the only report.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I received in the prison from
3 the court and what I was informed about, it said that, as I said, that
4 the hunting gun, you couldn't fire it upon the first try. After several
5 tries it could -- it could ignite the cartridge.
6 In the case of the pistol, the attached a magazine and then it
7 fired the entire cartridge.
8 Q. Yes, I'll come to the hunting rifle in a moment.
9 The pistol, it is not suggested in the report, had to have
10 anything done or added to it. Do you follow?
11 A. Yes, I'm following you very well. I know how -- in what state
12 they were, the weapons were. The pistol, in that case. It didn't have a
13 magazine. And if doesn't have a magazine or a cartridge it's not a
14 weapon. You can't call it a weapon.
15 Q. See, I'm going to suggest once again: Even in this detail on
16 this matter, you are lying about this pistol, aren't you?
17 A. I am telling the truth, and I believe that the documents are
18 valid. If they are no longer valid, you -- I don't know. You can find
19 copies of the ones that I have.
20 Q. Did you have a licence for this weapon, the pistol?
21 A. No, no. I didn't. And I don't deny that.
22 Q. Why not?
23 A. I didn't have a licence. The KFOR troops conducted a search.
24 They saw both weapons, but they didn't take them away. I told them that
25 they are old weapons. One of them didn't have munitions since 30 years.
1 You couldn't find that brand of munitions for that weapon. And they
2 didn't take them away from me.
3 Q. So far as the shotgun is concern the I will just read you what
4 the report says on that. Again, the 28th of July 2003, it's called item
5 number 1. "A 16-bore handmade shotgun bearing a number," which is then
6 cited. "I tested the shotgun with two of the 16-bore shotgun cartridges
7 and observed that all parts of it were functioning properly but ignition
8 of the primer mix occurred just at the second strike of the hammer. It
9 means that firing pin has been fixed in not sufficient way but not a
10 significant obstacle to declare this shotgun as unserviceable."
11 Now do you agree with that?
12 A. No. I already told you that I don't believe it. Maybe they have
13 used the power the white powder that can be found. There is a difference
14 between the white and the black powder in the ignition. One has another
15 power from the other. You can't find in the market any black powder, for
16 30 years now. And if you put that other powder, the weapon can explode.
17 The barrel cannot withstand the power of the -- of that powder.
18 Q. I'm going to ask you a little about what else was found on July
19 the 13th, 2003. A grenade was found and you have always denied that you
20 knew anything about that.
21 A. Yes. I deny it even now.
22 Q. Do you know where it was found?
23 A. Yes. In the ceiling of my house.
24 Q. How could it have got into the ceiling of your house?
25 A. I don't know. If I knew -- I knew that it was a model M52. The
1 fact that it was 40 years old, I knew that it is dangerous to hold, to
2 keep such weapons. If I knew of the existence of such a weapon I
3 wouldn't have been sleeping under it with my family.
4 Q. I want to ask you more particularly about the drugs that were
5 found in -- in July.
6 You do agree that drugs were found in July, do you?
7 A. This is what I was told.
8 Q. Never mind what you were told. Do you agree that you did have
9 drugs in July?
10 A. Yes. Yes, I agree that they found drugs. I didn't possess drugs
11 but they found them.
12 Q. Oh, you didn't possess them. Who did then?
13 A. When the experts came, they took to the expertise a large amount
14 [as interpreted]. When they came initially I denied to them that there
15 is nothing in connection with the drugs. But when they showed me the
16 amount, the quantity, I was really surprised and I told them that I
17 didn't know about the existence. Had I known, I wouldn't have been
18 sitting at ease, knowing that it was there.
19 It would be an absurdity to tell the police that I didn't know
20 about that. Maybe somebody has forgotten it, maybe -- I don't know. But
21 it was not mine. This is what I know.
22 Maybe I had it for a long time and I didn't know it was there.
23 Q. Come along, Witness. I think you can do a little better than
24 that. First they belonged to somebody else; you don't know how long they
25 have been there. I'm going to ask you very carefully because I'm going
1 to suggest once again that you are prepared to lie hard to save yourself
2 and you will lie about other people. Now, please, let's go through this.
3 First of all -- have you seen the expert's report on this?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Exhibit number 1, that's how it reads in the report - you don't
6 have to see it because we can do to quite quickly - was a polyethylene
7 bag with a slit containing I think what is commonly called a Kinder egg
8 or a box, as it's described, of a chocolate egg in red and yellow.
9 MR. MANSFIELD: And so that it's clear, should anybody wish a
10 reference for this it's 00079783. It's a different expert, needless to
11 say, from the last one and the copy I have has a date which is the 22nd
12 of August when these matters were reported on.
13 Q. Now, first of all, was there a box or some container with a
14 Kinder egg. Do you know what a Kinder egg is, first of all?
15 A. I know it very well.
16 Q. Was there a Kinder egg at your house on the 13th of July?
17 A. I told you I don't know. I didn't know about that. I didn't see
18 it. I have said that maybe it was. As I was told. I am not denying it.
19 Q. Where was it at the house?
20 A. They didn't tell me where they found it. When they took away the
21 weapons they took photos of them. But in this case they didn't show me
22 any pictures. I asked but they didn't tell me. They didn't take this.
23 They took a large amount. And in the records, in the report, it was said
24 that it was one-third of a gramme.
25 Q. Yes, Witness, please listen carefully. I'm going to suggest to
1 you that what was found on the 13th of July was all of the materials
2 sufficient for dealing in heroin, in packets mixed with other powder so
3 that the amount would be disguised. One packet had the heroin; some of
4 the others didn't. Now do you understand the suggestion?
5 A. I understand but that is not true. What there was, there was.
6 But about the others I explained you, I didn't know about it because it
7 was not myself who brought it there.
8 Q. Who brought it there?
9 A. Some other person of my family who doesn't live there. It is --
10 I was told that it is a fertiliser for the flowers. It was 20-gramme
12 Q. We really are getting into the realms of fantasy, aren't we,
13 Witness? A member of your family might have brought it there and told
14 you it was fertiliser? Is that true?
15 A. I don't know what the name means. Maybe you don't understand me.
16 Somebody from my family who doesn't live with me, he brought it for us
17 because my wife asked for it. The expertise report said that what it
18 writes in English it is what the report says. Not narcotics.
19 Q. We'll come to what the report says in a moment.
20 MR. MANSFIELD: Your Honour, may we go into private session just
21 for an identity.
22 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
23 [Private session]
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: We're in public session.
14 MR. MANSFIELD: Just to recapitulate, I have been asking you
15 about who brought the fertiliser, as you were told, and you have
16 indicated a member of your family.
17 If you understood it to be fertiliser, how does the fertiliser
18 end up inside a chocolate egg?
19 A. Sir, it was not found where you are saying. It was taken from my
20 home. It was packaged in another -- with another paper.
21 Q. What --
22 A. It was found in a cupboard.
23 Q. It was found in cupboard. What was found in a cupboard?
24 A. This what that fertiliser that I'm talking about was found either
25 in the cupboard or somewhere else in my home. Not as you are saying,
1 that Kinder chocolate.
2 Q. Where was the Kinder chocolate found?
3 A. I don't know. I said even earlier I don't know when it was
5 Q. When the Kinder egg was examined it contained heroin. Did you
6 know that?
7 A. Yes. Yes, I was told. This is what I was told. The expertise
8 verified that.
9 Q. How did the egg containing the heroin end up at your premises?
10 A. I am repeating it: I don't know. I didn't know about that.
11 Q. So are you saying it's a complete coincidence in July that a
12 person addicted to heroin and has used heroin even in 2003 just happens
13 to have some on his premises? That's a coincidence, is it?
14 A. No. I'm not saying that this is a coincidence. I am saying at
15 that time I didn't have -- at least I didn't know of its existence, how
16 it came. How it happened to be there I explained. It was in my property
17 and then it is supposed to be mine, I have admitted that. But I didn't
18 know of its existence.
19 Q. Inside the Kinder egg, there wasn't just heroin, was there?
20 A. I don't know about the details. I was told that it contained
21 only heroin.
22 Q. The experts' report indicates, and I'd like you to listen
23 carefully in view of what else was found, that the heroin content was in
24 fact mixed with paracetamol and caffeine. Now, do you remember that?
25 A. No. I told you they didn't allow me to see it. What I saw, I
1 tried to explain, telling them that they don't need to conduct any
2 expertise. But still took this to the expertise. But what you are
3 saying, I didn't see. They didn't allow me to see it.
4 Q. I just want to pass on to the second exhibit which was a
5 polyethylene bag. I think may be what you say was found in the cupboard,
6 brought by somebody in your family. A polyethylene bag with a slit in
7 wrapped paper, possibly a magazine, with a brown powdered substance. Is
8 that the bag that has come from somewhere abroad?
9 A. It was taken in my home. It was not a white powder; it was a
10 brown powder, dark-brown powder. I saw it also in the police, and I told
11 them, This is mine.
12 Q. Yes, thank you very much. Well, it was a brown substance,
13 powdered substance. And do you know what the brown powdered substance
15 A. I told you what I know it to be. I think three or five minutes
16 ago I told you.
17 Q. Are you saying you thought was fertiliser?
18 A. Yes. This is what I thought -- think.
19 Q. It's complete nonsense, isn't it? There was no fertiliser found.
20 What was found in this exhibit, less heroin, was paracetamol and
21 caffeine. Once again, the same mixture that was in the Kinder egg, only
22 this time without the heroin. Did you know that?
23 A. Now you are telling me this. At the police station and even the
24 court report said that the other contents is nothing much to speak of. I
25 don't know what the composition of the fertiliser for flowers might be.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 They didn't explain to me. They only thing they told me was that I was
2 not charged with that.
3 Q. I don't think that fertiliser normally has paracetamol and
4 caffeine in it. You do know that much, don't you?
5 A. It is another thing what I or you may know or may understand.
6 It's another thing what the experts say.
7 Q. Are you still maintaining, without naming who it was, that a
8 member of your family brought this stuff from abroad that contained
9 paracetamol and caffeine?
10 A. I didn't say that they brought this paracetamol and caffeine.
11 Q. No, but you see, you have admitted that this is yours, and when I
12 asked a moment ago, you said I already told you what it is, I thought it
13 was fertiliser. Now, we know that it isn't fertiliser so kindly tell us
14 whether you are still maintaining, I suggest as another lie, that this
15 was all brought from abroad by a member of your family.
16 A. I'm telling you again, this is what I think and what I think now.
17 I don't know its contents. Even if contain paracetamol or caffeine, this
18 is not anything surprising.
19 Q. Final question on this part of it: If you thought it was
20 fertiliser, why were you keeping it in a wardrobe?
21 A. I didn't keep it there. I wasn't interested in that.
22 Q. Where do you say you kept it then?
23 A. I said I didn't keep it. My wife asked for it and she used it
24 for the flowers.
25 Q. Did your wife keep it in a wardrobe?
1 A. I don't know where they found it. They found it somewhere in the
2 house. It was in a bag wrapped up, as I saw it when the police showed to
3 me. About the contents I learned later. They told me it's nothing
5 Q. Now finally in the search two more exhibits were found, a plastic
6 box with two CDs and a plastic box with one CD.
7 MR. MANSFIELD: The reference for this is 00078794.
8 MR. WHITING: Excuse me.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. This is the first time to hear
10 about that.
11 MR. WHITING: I think that this misstates the evidence. The --
12 what counsel is relying on is not items that were found during the search
13 but items that were tested and it's not clear that those are the two --
14 those two things are the same thing. So it's a small point but it could
15 be an important point, to be precise, on this matter.
16 MR. MANSFIELD: May I just clarify. Does Mr. Whiting mean it's
17 CDs or does he mean something else?
18 MR. WHITING: Well, I'm referring to -- I mean it may have been a
19 matter of confusion earlier, I don't know. But I was referring to the
20 question that was put right before I stood up which was: "Finally in the
21 search two more exhibits were found." And it was that that I seeking to
22 clarify, that it's not -- the document that counsel is relying on is not
23 a document which lists all of the exhibits that were -- everything that
24 was found during the search or at least it doesn't purport to. What it
25 is, is a list of those items that were tested from the search. And those
1 could be two different things. And it's may be important to be precise
2 on this issue.
3 MR. MANSFIELD: I'm happy to be precise. We understood a file
4 from Kosovo was on its way. There is a great deal more in relation to
5 this that we don't have. For example, the obvious thing would the
6 officer who did the searching and what he found and where would have been
7 greatly helpful, but we don't have it.
8 I'm doing it from a list which appears under the title of an
9 arrest and the place of the arrest, a substance suspected to be heroin
10 was found. And then there's the title "Exhibits." 1 and 2 I have dealt
11 with. And then 3 and 4 do not suggest it wasn't found there but I will
12 go carefully.
13 Q. The reason I ask you about these two exhibits wherever found, the
14 implication is at your address, is that these two exhibits - that's 3 and
15 4 - that on the boxes that contained the CDs there were traces of heroin.
16 Can you help about that?
17 A. This the first time I hear about this. Nobody told me about this
19 Q. All right. If you would bear with me. At the address in the
20 village that you were living at then, in July, did you have a CD player?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Or did you have, if not a CD player an item that would play CDs?
23 A. No. I didn't have anything. There were CD, there were
24 cassettes, there were games for children.
25 Q. Now, on this basis that there were CDs and that these CDs were
1 found at your address, how do you explain heroin or traces of heroin
2 getting on the boxes containing these CDs if all you knew that there was
3 fertiliser in the house, and you weren't using or trafficking in heroin?
4 A. I don't know which question to answer. It would be better if you
5 divide your questions. In the beginning you asked about a CD.
6 Q. Yes, I'm happy to. Can you explain how traces of heroin got on
7 to CDs, for the moment I'm assuming found at your address?
8 A. I don't have a knowledge of a CD taken for an expertise. This is
9 the first time I hear about it. As for CDs, cassettes and similar
10 things, there were in my house as in any other house. But this is the
11 first time that something else was taken from my house.
12 Q. Now, I'm going to come to now an interview that you had with the
13 police, the regional crime squad, on or about the 13th of July, 2003,
14 possibly on the 14th as well, and you remember you were asked about this
15 by Mr. Whiting who prosecutes a few days ago, when it came to light. Do
16 you know what I'm talking about?
17 A. Yes. I think I do.
18 Q. Now before I come to it, I want to ask you this: Why do you
19 think the police came to your house in the first place in July?
20 A. I know that.
21 Q. Now, I'm going to go carefully. Does it have something to do
22 with a member of your family?
23 A. I said that I know why.
24 MR. MANSFIELD: Your Honour, may we go into private session.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
1 [Private session]
11 Page 4660 redacted. Private session.
12 [Open session]
13 MR. MANSFIELD:
14 Q. I'm going to ask you and could you --
15 MR. MANSFIELD: Sorry, perhaps I should summarise first. I have
16 been asking you about the reason for the police raid on the 13th and
17 about another member of your family and so forth. So I'll have to come
18 back to that.
19 Now I want to return to what you told and the record of what you
20 told the regional crime squad officers in an interview around about the
21 1th of July.
22 May I just check before I do that Your Honours a copy of this in
23 English from yesterday, or the day before, sorry, earlier. And could an
24 Albanian copy, which I understand is available, be provided to the
1 Q. Do you have a typed Albanian copy of this interview?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And we can -- it's not on the English version but it is on the
4 Albanian. Is there a signature on each page and two on the third page
5 and one on the fourth; in other words, every page has a signature, does
6 it not?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And is the signature your signature?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Now, would you follow in the Albanian. I'm afraid I do want to
11 go through this with you.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Starting at the beginning at least the beginning of the record it
14 says: "On the 13th of July" -- and please be assured I will leave out
15 any detail that might lead to identification.
16 "On the 13th of July, 2003, the police from" somewhere "found a
17 pistol, a hunting rifle ammunition and a hand-grenade in your house," and
18 mentions the village. "They also found a small amount of heroin." It
19 goes on: "Today," so it may be -- it's not the 13th, but it may be --
20 "Today police found evidence" in your house "in two different locations.
21 The whole amount is about ten grammes of the substances suspected to be
22 narcotics. According to the test kit the substance is suspected to be
24 What can you tell us about this? Do you see that question?
25 A. That's right.
1 Q. Your answer, which you have signed to is: "If I had a narcotic
2 substance in possession in my house, I would for sure use it for myself
3 and you would not be able to find it because I use it." You said that,
4 didn't you?
5 A. No. What is true is that if I knew there was an amount, a small
6 amount even, I wouldn't have been in peace. This is what I said.
7 Q. I'm sorry, does the record in Albanian, please follow me, does
8 the record in Albanian suggest that what you said - whatever you meant is
9 another matter - that what you said in Albanian was, "If I had a
10 narcotic substance in possession in my house I would for sure use it for
11 myself and you not be able to find it because I use it."
12 Does the Albanian say that?
13 A. Where I'm reading it is that I think you're wrong [as
14 interpreted]. This is not drugs and I'm convinced that it is not drugs.
15 If you want, you can eat it up, all of it. This is what I said and this
16 is what I'm reading here.
17 Q. Please follow. I'm going to slowly and I'm sorry to have to do
18 it this way. You were asked a question -- I can see it in the Albanian
19 myself, in which the word "kit" appears. We have it in bold type; yours
20 it in brackets. Now, can you find that question?
21 A. I don't know where this passage is.
22 Q. It's on page 1. It's a third of the way down. In fact, it's the
23 introduction on the 13th. Then there comes --
24 "Q. [Albanian spoken]."
25 All right? "Today the police found," and so on. And the word
1 "kit" appears in that question. Do you follow? It's the first question.
2 A. I can't find this question. I read the part in the middle of the
3 page, but I can't find where it says kit.
4 Q. Let's go back to the beginning. Follow from the top of the page
5 where you will see the date and the word "May 13th, 7/03. Police" from a
6 particular area, et cetera et cetera.
7 Question, first question. Starts with the word "police." And
8 what they found. And in this question, [Albanian spoken] is the word
9 "kit" in brackets. [Albanian spoken]. Do you see that? First question?
10 A. Yes. Yes.
11 Q. Do you have difficulty reading?
12 A. No. What I said is that I couldn't find the question because
13 here it is written "rapage" [phoen].
14 Q. I'm going to suggest to you that is another of your tactics to
15 avoid facing the truth. Isn't it?
16 A. Sir, I told you that the word package was not mentioned here. We
17 were -- use a word package in Albanian as well as "paket." Here it is
18 "rap." This is what is written here, this "rap" in paper. This is how
19 it is written here in Albanian.
20 Q. Witness would you kindly look at the answer. Never mind what's
21 in the question. That was to direct your attention. The answer is --
22 when the officer says "What can you tell us about this." Do you see the
24 A. Yes. I are see it very well.
25 Q. Right. Do you see the answer very well?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Now, I'm going to say it again. The answer is English: "If I
3 had a narcotic substance in possession my house, I would for sure use it
4 for myself, and you not be able to find it because I use it."
5 Now, is that what is said in Albanian in that answer?
6 A. Again, the next sentence, the answer is different.
7 Q. Sorry. You are evading the point. You're perfectly well able.
8 Does the answer that I have just read out in English appear in the
9 Albanian with you saying you use it?
10 A. The answer to the question that you asked is different and if it
11 is down in the page, I'm trying to find it. But here it is written
12 differently. I can read it to you.
13 Q. Could you read the answer in Albanian and we'll have it
14 translated. That is, the first answer to the question: "What can you
15 tell us about this?" Please read it in Albanian and we'll have it
17 A. When you read it in Albanian I don't need a translation. We have
18 -- I think that you are wrong. This is my answer. This is not narcotics
19 and I'm sure it is not. If you wish, I may eat it all. This is what I
20 have relied to them.
21 Q. Would you kindly read out in Albania and then we'll have it
22 translated the first answer with the word [Albanian spoken], which I
23 understand may mean answer, starting [Albanian spoken]. Would you read
24 that answer, please, in Albanian and we'll have it translated.
25 A. I don't understand which answer you want me to read in Albanian.
1 If you mean the answer in the middle of the page. Because the first
2 question was this package or this amount wrapped in paper, this amount of
3 powder. What do you think it is. My answer comes after that. If you
4 mean that, I read it out to you. If you mean somewhere else, please help
5 me to find it.
6 Q. Yes, Witness I'm going to keep on because I suggest this is very
7 typical of your behaviour.
8 Now, the first answer in this interview -- all right?
9 A. Yes, yes I found it.
10 Q. You found it. It can't have taken you since minutes to find it,
11 can it?
12 A. Sir, first you told me to look for it in the middle of the page.
13 If you want me to become everything nervous, okay. Then you have your
14 way. You told me to read in the middle of the page and this is what I
15 did. There is not anything that can tell me where you want me to read.
16 It doesn't have any number here.
17 Q. No. Witness, I read out of the first few words. And now you've
18 found the answer, which begins the word [Albanian spoken], would you
19 kindly read it out loud there Albanian and we'll have it translated.
20 A. Yes. It's wrongly written here, "kasa." It's a spelling
21 mistake. "If I had a narcotic substance in my home I would certainly" --
22 again, "kasa" use, habit. It's a spelling mistake -- "use it for myself
23 and you'd not be able to find it because I use it."
24 When I signed it, I didn't read this. I wanted to -- I said I
25 have used it before. But if I had read it properly, I would not have let
1 it be in the way it is here. Because I didn't use it after the new year,
2 I said.
3 Q. I'm going to suggest to you as with you we go through this
4 interview you will discover that what you are telling the regional squad
5 crime officers is not that you have used but that you are using except
6 for the very recent past. Are you aware of that?
7 A. I am very well of that. But I said to you there are two mistakes
8 and they have nothing to do with the proper Albanian. This is what I'm
9 putting to you. It should be "I have used it," not that "I use it." And
10 when I signed it I didn't see this mistake. It doesn't specify here
11 whether I use it that day or when.
12 MR. MANSFIELD: Your Honour, I see the time. I wonder if that is
14 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. We will resume tomorrow at 2.15.
15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.,
16 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 23rd of
17 March, 2005, at 2.15 p.m.