Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5107

1 Monday, 4 April 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon. Weekends are becoming dangerous.

6 Unfortunately, Judge Thelin is unable to be with us today but is expected

7 to be able to be here tomorrow. We have decided pursuant to the Rule to

8 continue the hearing with just two Judges. And I see there have been

9 heavy casualties on the Defence bar because of the weekend.

10 Now, Mr. Black, what is it you have in mind for us?

11 MR. BLACK: Good afternoon, Your Honour. What we had proposed to

12 do at the beginning before calling in the next witness is to go through

13 some of the 92 bis materials that's pending for admission.


15 MR. BLACK: I think Mr. Younis has distribute a couple of

16 binders, one of which says "92 bis Witness Statements" on the end of it.

17 JUDGE PARKER: The small binder. Is that the one you mean?

18 MR. BLACK: That's the one, Your Honour.


20 MR. BLACK: What I would propose to do in just a moment is go

21 through those very rapidly and ask for an exhibit number for each tab,

22 basically.

23 But before I do that, I do note that the Prosecution's fourth

24 motion for admission pursuant to Rule 92 bis is pending. This is a

25 motion that the Defence have not opposed because in fact we spent a lot

Page 5108

1 of time agreeing on these witnesses. I don't know if it --

2 JUDGE PARKER: We haven't had any formal notice of that yet, so

3 the time's having to run.

4 MR. BLACK: Very well, Your Honour. I guess what we can do is do

5 the ones of that been provisionally admitted already and we can leave the

6 rest for later date or if Your Honour --

7 JUDGE PARKER: If there is in fact consent we're happy to deal

8 with them.

9 MR. BLACK: Perhaps -- I don't know if --

10 JUDGE PARKER: As you reach them that might be able to be

11 indicated.

12 MR. BLACK: Okay, that's -- I'll take them in order, then. Thank

13 you, Your Honour.

14 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, just for the record, there has been

15 extensive discussion between the parties related to those witnesses.

16 They're not a matter of dispute and we are content on behalf of the three

17 accused for those statements to be read in by way of 92 bis.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Khan, yes.

19 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE PARKER: You've got the green light now.

21 MR. BLACK: Great. The bind in front of everyone contains 21

22 tabs representing 21 witnesses. Seventeen of those had been

23 provisionally admitted at an earlier date including two that the Trial

24 Chamber had admitted then subject to cross-examination. And we have

25 since been able to reach agreement with counsel for the accused for those

Page 5109

1 witness statements to be admitted without cross-examination. And then

2 there are four witnesses who are subject to the motion which I believe is

3 still pending today but to which the Defence have agreed.

4 Before I go through them individually, you will notice that there

5 are redactions in many of them. Those redactions fall into three

6 categories. First, information exclude by the Trial Chamber in its

7 previous decisions; second, some additional redactions agreed with the

8 Defence; and finally, some very small redactions of personal information,

9 specifically identity cards numbers and street addresses were those --

10 were included in the materials.

11 You will also notice that there are translations into English and

12 Albanian, I believe of all the materials. In some instances those were

13 included in the actual 92 bis packet itself when the attestation was

14 done. At other times, the translation was not included in that but we

15 provide it had and it's behind the tab. So everything should be here in

16 English and Albanian.

17 Now, with Your Honour's permission I'll go quickly through the

18 binder. Well, first, actually, because of the different number of ERN

19 numbers with translations and so forth, it might be a good idea is to

20 admit the index as an exhibit although obviously it's not evidence, but

21 rather than me reading off all of the ERN numbers, I would propose

22 putting the exhibit in as the first exhibit so that the record's clear.

23 I don't know what Your Honour thinks about that.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Just checking that the registry officer has a copy

25 of the list dated 4th of April.

Page 5110

1 The list will be received not as an exhibit but as an index to

2 the individual statements which we are now to deal with, and the

3 reference to the ERN number need not be said as you deal with each

4 statement. You can do it by reference to the number on the list, that is

5 number 1, if you're able that name the witness or the witness's code

6 number as appropriate, but no need to refer to the ERN number. That can

7 be picked up from the index list.

8 MR. BLACK: Very well. Thank you, Your Honour. And should the

9 index be given a number so it will be in the record as a reference in the

10 future or how will that work?

11 JUDGE PARKER: It will have an MFI number.

12 MR. BLACK: Very well. Thank you, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE PARKER: It will be marked for identification as P176.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Your Honours.

15 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour. Then I'll move on. The

16 first -- behind tab 1 are the materials for Witness L-86. I would ask

17 that they be given the next Prosecution number.

18 JUDGE PARKER: They will be received and given number ...

19 THE REGISTRAR: That would be P177, Your Honours.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

21 MR. BLACK: Behind tab 2 are the materials for Witness L-29. I

22 ask that those receive the next number.

23 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P178.

24 MR. BLACK: Behind tab 3 are the materials for Witness L-13.

25 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P179.

Page 5111

1 MR. BLACK: Behind tab 4 are the materials for Witness L-34.

2 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P180.

3 MR. BLACK: Behind tab 5 are the materials for Witness L-25.

4 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P181.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Now, if I'm -- no, sorry. It's the next one,

6 L-09.

7 MR. BLACK: L-09. Yes, Your Honour. This is one of the two I

8 mentioned. By the decision of 13 October 2004, the Trial Chamber had

9 provisionally admitted his evidence subject to cross-examination. Now,

10 after that decision, we've had extensive conversations with Defence

11 counsel, and they have agreed to admission of his written evidence

12 without cross-examination. He's one of two witnesses like this.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

14 MR. BLACK: And, Your Honour, I was going to save this for the

15 end but I would like to say it now, we would like to express our

16 gratitude to counsel for the Defence, who have on many of these witnesses

17 gone to great lengths I think to help us, to work with us to reach

18 agreement, which has saved a lot of time in terms of motion practice, and

19 of course of calling witnesses for live testimony. I think while

20 protecting the rights of their clients they've done a lot to reach

21 agreement and move this case along.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Well, the Chamber is grateful to both Prosecuting

23 and Defence counsel that agreement has been able to be reached in respect

24 of so many matters. It will clearly facilitate the speed with which the

25 trial can be concluded.

Page 5112

1 With respect to this witness, the Chamber would vary its previous

2 order so that it might be admitted without cross-examination in view of

3 the consent of the Defence.

4 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour. Bearing in mind that

5 decision now orally given, I would ask that the materials behind tab 6

6 for Witness L-09 receive the next exhibit.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Tab number 6 would be P182.

8 MR. BLACK: Behind tab 7 are the materials for Witness L-37,

9 whose evidence was provisionally admitted by a decision of 13 October

10 2004. I ask that it receive the next exhibit number, please.


12 THE REGISTRAR: Tab number 7 would be P183.

13 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, the next tab, tab 8, the materials for

14 Witness L-15, this is one of the witnesses who is subject to the pending

15 motion which we discussed earlier in the day. We have reached agreement

16 on the admission of this evidence subject to some redactions which have

17 been made and which are included in the version here in the binder.

18 JUDGE PARKER: In the redacted form pursuant to Rule 92 bis, the

19 Chamber will receive this.

20 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour. I would ask, then, it be

21 given the next exhibit number.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Tab number 8 would be P184.

23 MR. WHITING: Behind tab 9 are the materials for Witness L-8,

24 provisionally admitted on the 17th of February, 2005, and I would ask

25 that they receive the next number, please.

Page 5113

1 THE REGISTRAR: Tab 9 would be P185.

2 MR. BLACK: Behind tab 10 are the materials for Witness L-18,

3 also provisionally admitted on the 17th of February, 2005. I would ask

4 they receive the next number.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Tab 10 would be P186.

6 MR. BLACK: Tab 11 includes materials for Witness L-28,

7 provisionally admitted on the 13th of October, 2004. I would ask they

8 receive the next number, please.


10 THE REGISTRAR: Tab 11 would be P187.

11 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, the next tab, tab 12, includes the

12 materials for a Witness L-47. This is another we have reached agreement

13 with the Defence and it's subject to the pending motion, Prosecution's

14 fourth motion for admission pursuant to Rule 92 bis.

15 JUDGE PARKER: In view of the consent of the Defence, this will

16 be received pursuant to Rule 92 bis.

17 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour. Would I ask that have the

18 next number, please.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Tab number 12 would be P188.

20 MR. BLACK: Behind tab 13 are materials for Witness L-48,

21 provisionally admitted on the 13th of October, 2004. I would ask they

22 receive the next number, please.


24 THE REGISTRAR: Tab number 13 would be P189.

25 MR. BLACK: Tab 14 includes materials for Witness L-65, also

Page 5114

1 admitted on the 13th of October, 2004. I would ask they receive the next

2 number, please.


4 THE REGISTRAR: Tab number 14 would be P190.

5 MR. BLACK: The next tab, tab 15, the materials for Witness L-96,

6 this is, Your Honour, another we've agreed with the Defence subject to

7 some redactions which are included here in this binder, and it's subject

8 to the pending motion for admission.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. And this is a witness not on your original

10 witness list; is that correct?

11 MR. BLACK: Yes, that's correct, Your Honour. Mr. Younis tells

12 me that I may have an incorrect witness number. With the Court's

13 indulgence if I could just check.

14 Mr. Younis corrects me that this witness's number is actually

15 L-98.

16 JUDGE PARKER: I think that was spotted.

17 MR. BLACK: I apologise for the confusion.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Younis to be commended.

19 MR. BLACK: As always. The name, however, on the index is

20 correct.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Well, in view of the consent of the Defence, that

22 will be received pursuant to Rule 92 bis, and your witness will be

23 amended to add that name.

24 THE REGISTRAR: That will be -- tab number 15 would be P191.

25 MR. BLACK: Next tab, tab 16, includes materials for Witness L-39

Page 5115

1 provisionally admitted on 13 October 2004. I would ask it receive the

2 next number, please.


4 THE REGISTRAR: Tab number 16 would be P192.

5 MR. BLACK: Tab 17 includes materials for Witness L-93. This is

6 another witness upon whom we've agreed with the Defence and is subject to

7 the pending motion for admission.

8 JUDGE PARKER: With the consent of the Defence this will be

9 received pursuant to Rule 92 bis.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Tab number 17 would be P193.

11 MR. BLACK: Tab 18 includes materials for Witness L-83, admitted

12 on the -- provisionally admitted on the 13th of October, 2004. I ask it

13 receive the next number, please.


15 THE REGISTRAR: Tab number 18 would be Prosecution Exhibit P194.

16 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, I apologise for the confusion on this,

17 but Mr. Younis is watching me like a hawk, and he tells me that tab 16,

18 although the name is correct the witness number should be L-30. I assure

19 you he is in the process of double-checking my work to make sure that I

20 haven't made any other errors like that. I apologise.

21 JUDGE PARKER: L-30 instead of L-39; is that it?

22 MR. BLACK: That's correct, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE PARKER: For number 16.

24 MR. BLACK: Tab 19, Your Honour, includes materials for Witness

25 L-22, admitted provisionally on the 17th of February, 2005. I ask it

Page 5116

1 receive the next number, please.


3 THE REGISTRAR: Tab 19 would be P195.

4 MR. BLACK: Tab 20 includes materials for Witness L-21,

5 provisionally admitted on the 17th of February, 2005. I ask that it

6 receive the next number, please.


8 THE REGISTRAR: Tab number 20 would be P196.

9 MR. BLACK: And the final tab, tab 21, includes materials for

10 L-84 [Realtime transcript read in error: "24"]. Your Honour, this is

11 another witness that by decision of 13 October 2004 Your Honours had

12 provisionally admitted it had pursuant to cross-examination. Subsequent

13 to that we reached agreement with the Defence it be admitted without

14 cross-examination. So I move Your Honours to vary the prior order to

15 allow admission without cross-examination.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Transcript says you mention this as Witness L-24.

17 MR. BLACK: L-84 is what I should have said if I didn't, Your

18 Honour.

19 JUDGE PARKER: I don't know what you said, I merely noticed the

20 transcript and your list.

21 MR. BLACK: Thank you for clarifying.

22 JUDGE PARKER: L-84. It will be received and the previous order

23 will be varied to allow its admission without cross-examination.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Tab number 21 would be P197.

25 MR. BLACK: Thank you very much, Your Honour. It's been a bit of

Page 5117

1 housekeeping, but I hope that they have been 20 or 25 minutes well spent.

2 JUDGE PARKER: To be able to receive evidence of 21 witnesses

3 without the need to call them is a significant step for the purposes of

4 the trial.

5 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, just to give you advance warning, there

6 are, I believe, about half a dozen other witnesses, some of which you've

7 already provisionally admitted their evidence, others which we will

8 shortly file a motion for and we hope that we'll be able to reach

9 agreement as we have with these and move their admission within -- well,

10 certainly within the next two weeks.

11 Your Honour, unless you have further questions for me on this

12 topic, I'll turn the floor over to Mr. Shin, I believe.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Shin.

14 Thank you very much for that, Mr. Black.

15 Yes, Mr. Shin.

16 MR. SHIN: Thank you, Your Honour. The Prosecution is ready for

17 its next witness.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. We'll have the next witness.

19 MR. SHIN: While we wait for the witness to come in, I may just

20 point out that there are two documents which I provided to the Court

21 assistant to assist -- I can address that later or now if you'd like.

22 [The witness entered court]

23 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Guy-Smith.

24 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes. If it's of any assistance to the Court, the

25 witness who has presently been called as a witness who the Defence has

Page 5118

1 previously indicated they agree to having his reports submitted and there

2 is not the necessity for any live testimony, however I believe the

3 Prosecution has take a bit of a different tack. So you can assume that

4 unless there is some radical differences between what we believe is going

5 to occur there will be little if no cross-examination.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. And there can be some liberty with

7 leading by the sound.

8 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes, absolutely.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Guy-Smith.

10 Good afternoon, sir. If you would please read allowed the

11 affirmation on the card.

12 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

13 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much. Please be seated, Doctor.


16 MR. SHIN: Your Honour, just briefly with the -- there are two

17 pieces of -- two documents, one constituting one page, the second two

18 pages, which we have prepared to assist in following the evidence of this

19 witness.

20 The first document constituting one page is a guide

21 cross-referencing what are called NN numbers which the results of DNA

22 tests and that comes -- that is extracted directly from Prosecution

23 Exhibit P112.


25 MR. SHIN: And we of course are not seek to go tender this into

Page 5119

1 evidence but merely to provide it as a guide for following the evidence

2 of the witness.

3 The second document is a two-page document which has columns

4 numbered 1 through 53 providing a brief description with ERN number of

5 certain slides which the witness may be referring to. I don't believe

6 the witness will be referring to all the slides, but all the better

7 perhaps to have a guide so if we move around it will be easier to follow.

8 And copies have been provided to Defence counsel.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

10 Examined by Mr. Shin:

11 Q. Good afternoon, Dr. Maat.

12 A. Good afternoon.

13 Q. Do you please tell the Court your full name.

14 A. George.

15 Q. So that would be George Maat?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And when were you born?

18 A. 21/10/1946.

19 Q. What is your current occupation?

20 A. I'm full professor of anatomy and forensic anthropology at the

21 Leiden University Medical Center.

22 Q. And I believe you prepared for the Office of the Prosecutor a

23 report dated the 13th of August, 2003; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What is it the Prosecution requested for you to do for that

Page 5120

1 report?

2 A. I was asked to go to Kosovo and look for skeletons which had been

3 excavated two years before to see if injuries which were, I think, first

4 discovered by the OSCE forensic anthropologist if they were injuries

5 afflicted before death to see about the time passed between the injury

6 and the death, moment of death.

7 Q. And just briefly, we'll go into it detail later, did you find --

8 did you find signs of injury prior to death?

9 A. Yes, I did.

10 Q. And on how many -- how many sets of remains did you find that?

11 A. I found that on three sets of remains dating, I think, two to

12 three weeks before death, and on two or three others which must have

13 happened many years before death.

14 Q. And these conclusions are set out in that report; is that

15 correct?

16 A. Yes, that's correct.

17 Q. Okay. Before we get in detail to the analysis that you undertook

18 and your conclusions, I would just -- I would like to take you briefly

19 through your background and your experience. And with the agreement of

20 Defence counsel, I'll lead you through some of this -- some of this area.

21 I understand that you have a degree known in -- known always the

22 Candidaats that you received in June of 1968. And where was that

23 received?

24 A. That was at the medical faculty of Leiden University. It is the

25 equivalent to B.Sc. of Medics.

Page 5121

1 Q. Okay. And in October of 1970 you received a degree called in

2 Dutch a Doctoraal?

3 A. Is equivalent to an M.Sc.

4 Q. And where did you receive that?

5 A. In Leiden as well.

6 Q. In January of 1973 you received a degree known in Dutch as

7 "Arts"?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And is there an equivalent of that?

10 A. That's MD.

11 Q. A medical doctor degree?

12 A. Sure, sure.

13 Q. In June of 1947 you received a Ph.D.?

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. And the -- your arts degree and the Ph.D., was that also from the

16 Leiden Medical Center?

17 A. All of that, yes.

18 Q. Okay. What -- could you just tell us briefly what your -- what

19 the topic of your Ph.D. dissertation was.

20 A. The topic of the Ph.D. thesis was of the embryology of the

21 thyroid gland which is, of course, very different from what we're dealing

22 with today. But a Ph.D. is just to show that you can handle

23 independently and without help a piece of science, and the topic is not

24 -- not the important thing.

25 Q. Dr. Maat, I'm going to go through briefly your work experience

Page 5122

1 maybe starting from where you are currently. You've told us that you are

2 a professor at the Leiden Medical Center. How long have you been a

3 professor there?

4 A. Over two years.

5 Q. And prior to that did you have a teaching position there as well?

6 A. Yes. I have been teaching there from 1977 up to 1986 and again

7 from 1993 up until now.

8 By the way, I should also add to that that since several years I

9 spent one day as an expert on the permanent board of the Ministry of

10 Justice at the Netherlands Forensic Institute here in The Hague.

11 Q. And that's something you continue to do today; is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. In addition to your teaching responsibilities, you -- you're a

14 research scientist as well, I believe. And what areas do you conduct

15 research in?

16 A. The research is on various areas, the main ones being on

17 paleopathology, and the other being on human growth. All of those are

18 related physical anthropology, but I have to add to that that the main

19 direction of research is on the forensic side of that, and especially on

20 the applicability of the methods on these topics for forensic use.

21 Q. Does your research read to the publication of articles?

22 A. It should and it does.

23 Q. Okay. And how many articles have you published?

24 A. I'm sorry to say I wouldn't know. You will have to look in the

25 CV. I suppose that would be at least over a hundred papers.

Page 5123

1 Q. With the assistance of the usher, Witness, I'll show you a

2 document marked U0082248 through U008 -- okay. Mr. Younis tells me

3 everyone has that already, so --

4 MR. KHAN: Yes. And, Your Honour, for the record we're happy to

5 accept that the curriculum vitae of the professor as a true and accurate

6 record of his experience, qualifications and publications.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Khan.


9 Q. And in addition to those articles, do you speak at conferences?

10 A. Yes, I do, on a regular basis.

11 Q. And is the detail -- are the details relating to those

12 conferences that you speak at in your CV as well.

13 A. I expect -- sorry, I don't understand. Are the details --

14 Q. The details relating to the talks or lectures that you give at

15 conferences, can we find that in your CV as well?

16 A. For sure, yes.

17 Q. Okay. When you present these papers and also for the purposes of

18 lectures what languages do you do this?

19 A. Usually this is in English. It's only quite -- it's only very

20 seldom that this is in Dutch for the Dutch scientists, but the last years

21 this is actually even in the Netherlands always done in English.

22 Q. Now, Dr. Maat, you've told us that you're a professor in anatomy

23 and physical anthropology. Could you tell us: What is physical

24 anthropology? I know it may be difficult to summarise simply, but if you

25 could do that, please.

Page 5124

1 A. In the simplest way. It's the study of the development of

2 mankind, and especially for the morphological side of that. That means

3 it conversation topics like human evolution, forensic anthropology,

4 paleopathology, human growth, adaptations of the human body to

5 environmental changes and so on.

6 Q. And forensic anthropology, that's an area you've done

7 considerable work in; is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What is forensic anthropology?

10 A. Forensic anthropology is mainly concerned about the application

11 of methods developed in the other fields which I have already stated to

12 use them for the benefit of forensic courses. Is that clear?

13 Q. Yes. Thank you, Dr. Maat. You also mentioned the term

14 paleopathology as one of the other fields you've mentioned. Is that an

15 area you've worked in as well?

16 A. Yes, very much.

17 Q. What is that? What is paleopathology?

18 A. Actually it is the pathology as it is seen in the human remains.

19 Q. Is there any particular area of human remains that is a study of

20 or would it be generally?

21 A. It could be generally. In my case it is mainly on that of dry

22 bone tissue of the skeleton.

23 Q. Now, turning to the area of dry bone tissue, what is dry bone

24 tissue?

25 A. Dry bone tissue is actually bone where the organic component,

Page 5125

1 that is the proteins, have decomposed and almost only the mineral

2 component of bone is left.

3 Q. And is it correct that the term dry bone tissue differs or can be

4 juxtaposed with the term soft tissue?

5 A. Yes, because the part left out, if speaking about dry bone tissue

6 is the soft tissue, soft remains.

7 Q. Is the analysis of dry bone tissue, is that different from the

8 analysis of soft tissue?

9 A. Yes, because the dry bone tissue and also the, let's say the

10 living bone tissue contains a lot of minerals, even to the extent that it

11 is a hard if compared to the other tissues surrounding it.

12 Q. Normally who is it or what kind of qualifications would you need

13 to do an analysis of dry bone tissue? What's involved in that?

14 A. The person who is studying that is always a physical

15 anthropologist, almost never a pathologist, a pathologist have focused

16 their study very much on soft tissue remains and looking, of course, to

17 the cause of death. And if it comes to the dry bone tissue, then it is

18 the forensic anthropologist who is taking care of that. And in the case

19 of paleopathology, we look at the changes which bone may have from

20 diseases or from injuries.

21 Q. You explained you did work in dry bone tissue as well. When did

22 you begin doing work on dry bone tissue?

23 A. Actually that's in the 1977 so that's quite some time ago.

24 Q. And who -- are there other people who do dry bone tissue analysis

25 in Holland?

Page 5126

1 A. Very, very few. The very few others -- except for somebody who

2 is trained by me at the moment to replace me on the long-term. It is

3 also looked at by archaeologists, but for the analysis of pathologic

4 changes you have to have a medical degree to be able to do that.

5 Q. So before -- if there is only you and someone you're training

6 doing this kind of work, prior to 1977 when you began who was doing that

7 kind of work in Holland?

8 A. Actually, it was not done. The pathologist may have taken a look

9 at that, but as soon as I started to work with that, the pathologists of

10 the Forensic Institute, which was very small by that time, there was only

11 one pathologist, in case he encountered on skeletal material always

12 consulted me.

13 Q. In terms of the -- your analyses of dry bone tissue, let's say

14 this year or the previous year, approximately how many cases would --

15 would you -- would you actually analyse?

16 A. Most of the cases come via the Netherlands Forensic Institute in

17 The Hague, and that would be one to two cases every week. And that are

18 the routine cases. Sometimes there are special cases, like for instance

19 what we are dealing with at the moment, and they come with requests from

20 outside.

21 Q. And if it's not the -- say most of the cases come via the

22 Netherlands Forensic Institute. If it doesn't come from them where else

23 does it come from?

24 A. In that case it comes from an international organisation like

25 this or it comes straightaway from the police organisation.

Page 5127

1 Q. That would be the Dutch police?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. When you -- and when you talk about cases, what do you mean? Are

4 they actually bone samples or -- or what is it that you actually receive?

5 A. If it is on the regular case it is usually bone samples, but now

6 and then it is a full skeleton if that is found. And otherwise it are

7 pieces of bone samples taken out by the pathologist and his assistance

8 for my assessment and they're brought to the department in Leiden. And

9 sometimes it's about work abroad like, for instance, in Kosovo. But then

10 it is not via the Netherlands Forensic Institute but in that case on the

11 request of the ICTY like in 1999 and 2000 and 2003.

12 Q. These -- these bone samples, where are they maintained at the

13 Leiden -- in your -- where you work, are they maintained?

14 A. They are in the department, yes.

15 Q. And that would be the department of anatomy?

16 A. Yes, that's in the department of anatomy. You have the unit on

17 physical anthropology, which I am dealing with, and that is more or less

18 separate from it.

19 Q. Who has access to these bone samples?

20 A. Myself and the chief technician.

21 Q. Is there any security around your office?

22 A. Yes. The -- there is electronic security on the building

23 overall, and the place where the forensic samples are kept is behind an

24 ordinary locked door within the institute.

25 Q. Okay. For these cases, these bone samples provided to you by the

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13 English transcripts.













Page 5129

1 Netherlands Forensic Institute or the Dutch police, is it -- if it's

2 possible, could you tell us what types of analyses you are normally

3 requested to undertake.

4 A. It varies somewhat, but most cases are about the identification

5 of unknown individuals, and for that it is necessary, for instance, to

6 determine the sex of the person, the age of the person, to calculate its

7 stature and see if there are any pathologic changes which may help in

8 identifying the person. In the old days there was done only gross

9 anatomically, so in that case from a person I needed the the skull and

10 the femur and one-half of the pelvis. But these days we have refined the

11 methods to studying the fourth rib for age and doing a microscopic

12 evaluation of the bone remodelling in the femoral shaft for age

13 determination which is more elegant and less destructive for the corpse.

14 Q. Dr. Maat, have you previously testified in Court?

15 A. Yes, many times.

16 Q. And in which court or courts?

17 A. In the Dutch courts.

18 Q. In addition to testifying, have you otherwise provided the

19 results of your analyses to courts?

20 A. Yes, also for the ICTY on the work on mass burials, in my case in

21 Kosovo.

22 Q. And will we be able to find some -- some detail regarding these

23 reports for forensics cases in your CV?

24 A. Yes, that must be included in the CV. I think that for sure,

25 yes. It will be under the title of "Miscellaneous," because it's not

Page 5130

1 pure scientific work. So you can't put it under full-length scientific

2 publications or abstracts. It's different. It's a forensic report.

3 Q. Okay. Thank you, Dr. Maat. To the best of your knowledge, has

4 your expertise always been accepted in court?

5 A. Up until now, yes.

6 Q. Okay. Now, turning to -- turning to the area, the scientific

7 principles involved for the report that you've done for the Office of the

8 Prosecutor here. My question to you is this: What scientific principles

9 are involved in conducting this analysis that you were requested?

10 A. That concerns three main steps which increase in depth. The

11 first thing is to study the human remains, in this case the skeletal

12 material, by means of gross anatomical analysis. The second step is more

13 in depth, that is an X-ray analysis of the found changes; and finally, it

14 is a microscopic analysis. That is, let's say, as deep as you can go.

15 Q. And when you discuss -- when you talk about these three levels of

16 analyses, what scientific principles are you guiding by in conducting the

17 examination? What are you looking for, in other words?

18 A. In this case I was looking for signs which may show that there is

19 a healing of an antemortem injury showing -- because it's a healing that

20 time has passed between the insult and the moment of death and that are

21 actually growth changes or healing changes.

22 Q. Now, I understand you have some slides that you'll take us

23 through to explain this -- this healing process. But maybe before we

24 turn to the slides if I could just ask you would it be possible for you

25 to describe for the -- for the Court briefly what the main areas of

Page 5131

1 healing processes are, and then we can go through the slides to look at

2 it in more detail.

3 A. In case of fractures, and that is what we are talking about, the

4 first step in the process is that during the infliction of the fracture

5 the fracture gap is filled with blood and edema develops. There will be

6 pain and redness. Shortly after, that is the second step, is debris will

7 have to be removed by the body cells. That is a sort of mopping-up

8 activity to clean up the area to make it possible that healing may start.

9 The third step will be that the broken ends of the bone will be

10 smoothened [sic]. That will help in the removal of small particles which

11 did not come loose as separate debris but were still, let's say, hanging

12 on the fracture surface and will smooth it in such a way that new bone

13 can be formated [sic]. And the fourth step is that in the gap cartilage

14 and bone will be develop. In that phase, that fourth phase, the bone

15 which develops in the cartilage is a sort of meshwork in three

16 dimensional directions. It's rather at random, just to fill in the gap.

17 And the fifth stage will be that the bone which is deposited there would

18 be restructured, remoulded as we call it, in the parallel to the

19 longitudinal axis of the bone to make it more strong. So there will be a

20 change in the direction of the bone fibres and a lot of extra bone will

21 formated like an sort of thick collar around the fracture site to bridge

22 the gap. That is actually the sixth phase, the bridging of the gap. And

23 then finally if it is successful this thick collar will be streamlined so

24 that the bone will retake as far as possible its original form.

25 Q. Thank you for that explanation. And if we understand your

Page 5132

1 explanation correctly, there is a chronological aspect to this; is that

2 right?

3 A. Yes. Self-understandably, for all healing and growth processes

4 time is need.

5 Q. It may now be a good time to turn to some of the slides you have

6 and it might -- to streamline things I might direct you to a particular

7 slide. If we can provide an extra -- I have an extra copy of an index of

8 these slides for you. The index for the slides is in tab 2. Perhaps

9 it's not. Perhaps it's here.

10 A. Thank you very much.

11 Q. And I believe we're going to have these slides on the -- what is

12 this? This is the ELMO. It will be on our monitors anyway. Computer

13 evidence. Thank you.

14 Okay. Dr. Maat, if you could move forward through the slides

15 until slide 12. And we may go back to some of these at a later point.

16 Could you describe now stage by stage the healing process you've outlined

17 for us but paying specific attention to what it is that you are looking

18 for both -- or at all three levels of analyses, first of all, the growth

19 -- I'm sorry, the gross anatomical analysis; secondly the X-ray or

20 radiological analysis; and thirdly the microscopic analysis.

21 A. Yes. As you can see depicted in the first phase we have this

22 hemorrhage in the cleft between the broken ends of the bone. The

23 haematoma there and the swelling and the breakdown of blood as it is

24 mentioned here is something to happen in the first two days after injury.

25 That means since these are all soft tissue components that that phase

Page 5133

1 cannot be made -- can be made visible in a live situation but cannot be

2 made visible with X-ray or with dry bone study because this type of

3 remain decomposes completely after death and will disappear in the grave.

4 In the second phase we have in the following days what we call

5 phagocytosis of cell debris. Phagocytosis is actually a process in which

6 specific cells eat the debris away. That is this mopping up operation I

7 mentioned before. That again is just the removal of soft tissue from the

8 first phase and self-understandably in the grave after decomposition this

9 activity cannot be seen.

10 Then we enter into the third page where cartilage and bone matrix

11 is formated. And that cartilage which is deposited there is of course --

12 can be seen in the live situation but cartilage will after death

13 completely decompose and because of that the cartilage cannot be found by

14 study of gross anatomy or X-ray once we are dealing with dry bone tissue.

15 Now, the fourth phase in this cartilage bone spicules but

16 dispersed in any direction will be found. That will only develop after a

17 week. And this bone formation which is actually very much an at-random

18 deposition has no -- let's say it is a meshwork but it is not really

19 fixed to the broken ends of the bone and because of that after

20 decomposition you will not find that.

21 Q. Dr. Maat if I could just interrupt you for a minute on that

22 previous slide. Could you please explain what is a bone spicule?

23 A. A bone spicule is a strand of bone fibres. That means that is

24 mineralised cartilage -- sorry, mineralised protein, collagen and just

25 strands of bone tissue which form a network in any direction.

Page 5134

1 Q. And is that visible to the eye, to the unaided eye in a gross

2 anatomical examination?

3 A. That would be during the live situation that would become visible

4 on an X-ray. But in the dry bone tissue case, it is not firmly attached

5 to the broken ends of the bone. It will be washed away with the

6 groundwater. You will not find it.

7 Q. Would you find that in a microscopic analysis?

8 A. Depends what you mean with a microscopic analysis. If it is a

9 microscopic analysis of the complete body, then you may find that. Or in

10 a living person. And if it is looked for in the situation of dry bone

11 tissue, it will be watched away by the water in the ground. You will not

12 be able to find that unless it is still in place.

13 Q. Thank you, Dr. Maat. If you could please continue with I believe

14 stage 5.

15 A. Yes. In stage 5 then these separate spicules during the second

16 and third week, they form that meshwork which I have been talking about.

17 And because of all the cartilage around there will be a sort of flexible

18 union of both bone ends.

19 More interestingly -- and that -- let's say that meshwork of bone

20 fibre strands is called a callus, and that callus is formated not only at

21 the level of the marrow cavity, that is to say inside the bone, but also

22 onto the exterior of the bone, and that is seen as a sort of thick collar

23 of very loose bone tissue.

24 Now, this so-called callus which is there needs to be remodelled,

25 and for the remodelling - which means that the at-random organisation of

Page 5135

1 this bone tissue will become reorganised into a direction longitudinal,

2 that is parallel to the axis of the bone to let both ends meet - that

3 remodelling process is important for phase number 6. But you will need

4 two weeks after the injury to let that happen.

5 Q. Dr. Maat, I'm sorry if I could just interrupt you again there.

6 What you've spoken about so far in phase 5, what of that, if anything, is

7 visible to the unaided eye in the gross anatomical analysis?

8 A. That will be -- yes, that will be visible in the gross anatomical

9 analysis. It will be visible on the X-ray because these bone strands are

10 mineralised, so they will stop the X-rays and therefore show on the X-ray

11 film. And that can be seen with the naked eye, and it can be seen with

12 the X-ray operators both.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 A. Is that clear.

15 Q. Yes. Sorry for interrupting you there again. If you could

16 please continue where you left off.

17 A. Actually, you don't need to feel sorry, because I forgot to tell.

18 In the next phase you get this very typical remodelling process

19 after two weeks in which the at-random organisation of the tissue becomes

20 longitudinal, that is parallel to the bone axis; it becomes better

21 organised, and in that period -- during that period, you will see that

22 both gross anatomically, with the naked eye on dry bone tissue; you will

23 see it with the X-ray as well as a sort of wooly attachment seen onto --

24 near the end of the bones. That wooly sort of first bone which is

25 formated is called here radiopacity because it sort of gives a whitish

Page 5136

1 effect.

2 Q. You mean a whitish effect if you're looking at it through an

3 X-ray; is that correct?

4 A. Through an X-ray, yes. Opaque. It gives an opaque impression.

5 Q. Could you tell us on this phase which I believe is phase number

6 6, what -- what of these processes what of them are visible to the

7 unaided eye, firstly; secondly what is visible in an X-ray; and lastly,

8 what is visible in a microscopic analysis? What would you be looking

9 for?

10 A. Well, with the unaided eye you will look for bone apposition onto

11 the outside near the broken ends of the bone. With X-ray, you will look

12 at the same place, but you will look for this opalesque effect because

13 the X-ray beams are stopped by the minerals in the callus. And in the

14 microscope you will look especially to the direction of the fibres inside

15 that callus meshwork to see if there is already a remodelling activity

16 from an at-random organisation into a directional organisation from one

17 bone into the other.

18 Q. And just very briefly to remind us, you've given a description of

19 it once before. What is remodelling? What is being remodelled?

20 A. Actually, there are two sites in the bone end that are

21 remodelled. Remodelling is let's say a sort of replacement of old bone

22 tissue by new bone tissue in such a way that is part of the healing

23 process. Of course before the bone was broken there was no healing at

24 all. You had a three-dimensional architecture of the bone tissue. And

25 now by the fracture that architecture is interrupted and the body will

Page 5137

1 try to regain that architecture, but it will first do that in a rather

2 chaotic way. As mentioned, that will be done in an at-random way just to

3 get the two ends together with a surplus of bone tissue and later that

4 will be streamlined.

5 Now, that remodelling which is actually the process on a

6 microscopic level means that cell strands which run in any direction will

7 be broken down and built up again but then parallel to the bone axis.

8 And the second thing what will happen, which is mentioned here with the

9 cutting and so-called closing cones, and that is longitudinal inside the

10 bone which stayed intact holes are drilled, so to speak, by cells in the

11 longitudinal direction, that is from the shaft towards the broken end of

12 it. And that -- these channels will be filled in with new bone tissue,

13 that is the so-called closing cone which comes behind the drilling so

14 first there's the drilling and then bone is filling in the gap which has

15 been drilled, and that will happen at both bone ends. So you will get a

16 sort of internal splint because that drilled out part will be filled up

17 with new bone fibres crossing from one bone end to the other bone end.

18 Q. And Dr. Maat you have explained now how these cutting and closing

19 cones bridge the two -- two parts of a broken bone. Are those cones

20 visible to the unaided eye or on an X-ray?

21 A. No.

22 Q. -- Analysis?

23 A. These are not visible with the naked eye nor are they visible

24 with the X-ray. You have to do a microscopic analysis. But to do the

25 microscopic analysis you have to make a section, a very thin section

Page 5138

1 through the bone tissue. You will have to make a section so thin that

2 you can look to study -- you can study it with a microscope but so thin

3 that the light will come through it. And then preferably we use not a

4 bright light or ordinary light but we used polarised light. We do that

5 especially to take a look at the direction of the bone fibres because

6 especially this change from multi-directional into uni-directional for

7 the crossing of the bridge is a sign of a further step in the healing

8 process.

9 Q. Okay. Dr. Maat, we'll address again the issue of how you prepare

10 bone samples for examination under the microscope. I had interrupted you

11 when you were describing the phases. I don't recall whether you had

12 finished describing what happens in phase 6 or would you like to go into

13 phase 7.

14 A. I would prefer to go onto phase 7 because the details of phase 6

15 are more easily understood if you took a look at the real sections, the

16 real microscopic sections.

17 Q. Okay.

18 A. In phase 7 that will need at least six weeks after the infliction

19 of the injury. Then this callus formation will see to it that both ends

20 are firmly united. That means that they are only united in a functional

21 way, which means that you could stand on the bone again if you wanted to,

22 but it does not mean that the bone has the original form back.

23 From six weeks on, this so-called streamlining process will

24 happen. And the streamlining process will bring you into phase number 8

25 if it is successful, because then the surplus of bone, that collar around

Page 5139

1 the fracture site will be removed and the bone will look like as if

2 nothing has ever happened before. That can only be, of course,

3 accomplished if the fracture is held stable so the bone can really become

4 united. If the bone stays unstable and moves all the time then it

5 becomes impossible for the cells to make a rigid, bony bridge between the

6 two ends and a sort of new joint will develop at the site of the gap

7 because there's insufficient rest to make the bridge. And that we call a

8 pseudoarthrosis, a sort of fake joint.

9 Q. Dr. Maat, if I can just ask you going back to stage or phase 7,

10 could you remind us again what the hard callus is firstly, and secondly

11 could you tell us whether that's visible to the unaided eye.

12 A. Yes, that is visible to the unaided eye because it is a firm,

13 strong thick collar around the fracture site. It is certainly visible

14 with the X-ray. And if you would study it with the microscope you would

15 see that this bone collar would only exist of fibres which run from one

16 end, broken end, to the other end parallel to the bone axis. It will not

17 show any longer this at-random dispersed organisation.

18 Q. Now, Dr. Maat, the process of the bone healing which you've just

19 outlined to us in these -- in these eight phases, when were these

20 principles of bone healing, when were they first discovered or

21 established?

22 A. Well, if it comes to the gross anatomical changes which you could

23 see with the unaided eye, that was actually a healing process which was

24 already described in the 18th century, so a long time ago. Then in the

25 19th century, this last half of the 19th century when the microscope was

Page 5140

1 invented. Then the -- let's say the microscopic effect was discovered

2 and described for the first time. And at the beginning of the 20th

3 century when the X-ray machines were inventioned [sic], also of course

4 the X-ray phenomena became visible. But basically, on all these three

5 levels the healing process was already taken into the pathology and

6 anthropology textbooks I think a couple of years before the Second World

7 War and have stayed actually in the textbooks unchanged since then

8 because the healing process has been rigorously studied at earlier times.

9 Q. And more specifically relating to the chronology or the time

10 frame within which these eight phases occur, when was that first

11 established or when was that first discovered? I'm not sure what the

12 right term for that is.

13 A. Well, it was first -- the gross anatomical changes were first

14 described already in the 18th century and the microscopic changes were

15 formulated for the first time at the end of the 19th century but more in

16 detail at the beginning of the 20th century and that latter together with

17 the X-ray descriptions since the X-ray machine was there.

18 The X-ray machine was actually of course not developed for -- for

19 the scientific purposes of studying the fracture healing, but were for

20 the clinical people to see how the healing process made progress and if

21 broken ends were really lined up well.

22 Q. But with regard specifically to the chronology or the time frame

23 after injury within which these phases occur, how long has that been

24 established in the science?

25 A. Anyway before Second World War, I mean short after the invention

Page 5141

1 of these apparatuses. It was one of the most extensively studied in

2 those days because it was a very common pathology in life so it needed

3 study to improve the health condition of the people. And so the phases

4 which I have been describing were already described before the Second

5 World War, if that is what you want to know. I'm not completely sure

6 about this.

7 Q. My question was specifically with regards to, for example, the

8 timing. Yes. We have phase 7, after two to three months or after six

9 weeks certain things happen.

10 A. That was settled before Second World War.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MR. SHIN: And, Your Honours, if we could -- if we could have

13 these slides given an exhibit number we can afterwards clean up the

14 matter of which specific slides are reviewed or not.

15 JUDGE PARKER: The slides as a group will be received as one

16 exhibit.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours --

18 MR. SHIN: I'm sorry, that's under -- Mr. Younis has just

19 reminded me that's specifically under tab 2 of the binder.

20 THE REGISTRAR: The exhibit -- the exhibit number for the slides,

21 that will be -- tab 2 would be P198.

22 MR. SHIN: And I had neglected also to get a number for Dr.

23 Maat's CV which is under tab 1 of the bundle.


25 THE REGISTRAR: Tab 1 would be Prosecution Exhibit P199.

Page 5142


2 Q. Dr. Maat, with reference to the phases of healing you've just

3 outlined for us and that are set out in your slides here, what is the

4 variation in this process among different persons, if any?

5 A. There is a little variation between individuals, but especially

6 in the steps of the first one and a half month that variation is very

7 little. And that -- one of the reasons is that the -- there are so many

8 steps in -- following short after each other during that phase that you

9 can do the timing in the best way, and this is just actually a full

10 automated healing process by the body which will only, I think, hamper if

11 there's some serious diseases there everything is held up.

12 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me if I might. I may have misheard. I

13 believe that Dr. Maat said there is a lot of variation.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, very little.

15 MR. GUY-SMITH: Very little variation in the first one and a half

16 months.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18 MR. GUY-SMITH: Maybe I misheard. Referring to line 9: "There

19 is a little variation between individuals but specially in the steps the

20 first one and a half months that variation is very little."

21 MR. SHIN: Yes. I believe the witness has clarified that now.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

23 MR. SHIN:

24 Q. And if you review the three slides that you have setting out the

25 phases of the healing process, is that variation, that little variation

Page 5143

1 between individuals, is that actually set out in your slides as a range

2 of time for each stage?

3 A. That has already been taken in. The timing is in yellow, as you

4 can see on the schedule, and the timing is always in -- in terms of an

5 interval.

6 Q. Dr. Maat, you had mentioned also that there are some serious

7 diseases where everything can be held up. Could you give us an example?

8 A. Well, I think the most striking example is that if people have

9 ask scurvy, that is avitaminosis C, so that they don't have vitamin C in

10 their body, in that case the proteins are not formated and the healing

11 will not happen at all. It won't happen a little bit but it won't happen

12 at all. But for avitaminosis C you have -- you'll need a diet for over

13 half a year without any vitamin C in it, and that is something very hard

14 to accomplish because a lot of food which people take in contain vitamin

15 C.

16 Q. And is there a common word for that?

17 A. Scurvy.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 A. Sorry.

20 Q. I what about -- you mentioned before mobility of the bones as

21 something that does appear in your time line in phase 8. Would the

22 mobility of the phones, in other words if they weren't stabilised, would

23 that have an impact on the earlier phases or the time of the earlier

24 phases?

25 A. It will not affect the timing very much actually at all, but it

Page 5144

1 will -- because these processes which happen at each broken end, the end

2 of each broken end will continue only the phase of stabilisation will not

3 be reached in phase number 7. So the callus formation will happen and

4 all microscopic events necessary to do that will happen, only they will

5 be on the long-run unsuccessful because immobility will not give the

6 possibility to give a bridging.

7 Q. Dr. Maat, I'd like to turn now to the actual examination process

8 itself. You've mentioned three levels of analyses, the gross anatomical

9 analysis or examination, the X-ray examination, as well as the

10 microscopic. If you could take each of those in turn and describe what

11 is involved. With the gross anatomical, what is involved in that?

12 A. Do you mean what is involved morphologically?

13 Q. Let's begin what you actually do. You've explained what it is

14 you're looking for. How is that examination done? And it could be very

15 simple.

16 A. You just have to look at the bone ends to see if there is extra

17 bone added on to the outside near the broken ends. That is the solid

18 called callus formation. Is that your question?

19 Q. Yes. I think that's --

20 A. It's just as simple as that.

21 Q. And what about the --

22 A. X-ray?

23 Q. -- X-ray examination?

24 A. In that case you make an X-ray of that end to see if -- of course

25 to see if the callus which is on the outside is visible, but to see if

Page 5145

1 the same is happening on the inside of the bone at the marrow cavity.

2 Q. Now, you've mentioned that -- a certain challenge in preparing

3 the microscopic analysis. Could you explain to the Judges what that

4 problem is?

5 A. It's no longer a problem, it's a solved thing. But as you will

6 understand, if bone tissue is fresh and you want to study the histology

7 of that bone tissue, you have to make a very thin slice. Now, since bone

8 is mineralised, it's hard to cut with a knife. Actually, it becomes

9 almost impossible to make a nice smooth cut of thin bone tissue for study

10 by the microscope. For that reason the pathologist take the mineral out.

11 They demineralise it in a fluid so that only actually the protein

12 component is left so it is soft. So it can be sliced.

13 In dry bone tissue can not be done because in dry bone tissue you

14 only have the mineral component so if you demineralise dry bone tissue

15 you will only end up with a bottle with -- with fluid, with powder in it.

16 The morphology is gone immediately because there is nothing else than

17 mineral. It dissolved, actually, in toto.

18 What has to be done if you want to study it is to develop a new

19 technique by which you do not mineralise the bone but nevertheless are

20 still able to make a thin section requested for microscopy. This is

21 something we have been working on for some years and solved quite a

22 number of years ago and has been shown also to be quite useful also in

23 this case. To make the microscopic changes in dry bone tissue visible,

24 that is actually making things visible which were already known but which

25 could not be seen in dry bone tissue, only in fresh bone tissue.

Page 5146

1 Q. When you say this technique that you've just described in which

2 you do not demineralise the bone was something that you've been working

3 on for some years, when did you first -- when did you first develop that

4 technique?

5 A. I think I started with that in 1996 or 1997, something like that,

6 and that was actually because I ran into a paper by an American

7 pathologist who wanted to look at fresh bone tissue which samples were

8 taken away during surgery and had to be diagnosed during the surgery.

9 But that was fresh bone tissue and he made a start with this preparation

10 of so-called ground sections, and it seemed to me that that technique was

11 -- could be used for dry bone tissue as well, but a couple of

12 modifications had to be made which we did. And already after short time

13 it became very useful and since then we have been using it already for

14 many, many years. And in my field of science more and more departments

15 are starting to use this.

16 Q. Just a couple of follow-up questions on that. When you say that

17 "we" developed this technique, who do you mean by "we"?

18 A. That's me and my chief technician.

19 Q. And when you developed this technique, did you -- did you publish

20 anything about this technique or did you publish it anywhere?

21 A. Yes, we did. We thought it so of interest to everybody studying

22 dry bone material that the first thing we made was a manual describing

23 very precisely how to do it. And at the same time we have sent it to the

24 International Journal of Osteoarchaeology, and via that journal it was

25 published. And on top of that we have been to various conferences to

Page 5147

1 give workshops to learn the people how to do it.

2 Q. And perhaps -- we have a couple of minutes before the break and

3 I'll just finish this section with a couple of questions in connection

4 with this technique.

5 The publication of this technique that you mention in the journal

6 International Journal of Osteoarchaeology as well as other publications

7 and lectures you've given, does that constitute peer review?

8 A. Of course, yes.

9 Q. And --

10 A. But it's not only peer review of the paper. Before that we have

11 given oral presentations on various conferences, and especially during

12 these oral presentations with you are cross-examined by your colleagues

13 if the thing is really valid.

14 Q. And have you received criticism about your technique?

15 A. Well, actually I've only received enthusiasm about it, not really

16 criticism, because the method was even applicable not only to dry bone

17 remains but also to cremated remains, which is -- which is very, very

18 fragile.

19 Q. Dr. Maat, what -- what does the microscopic analysis, what does

20 that add to the gross anatomical and the X-ray analysis, if anything?

21 A. The main thing is what I mentioned in this phase 6 of the healing

22 recess that you become able to see the so-called cutting and closing

23 cones which cannot be even with the naked eye nor with the X-ray and

24 which is a further step in development; and also that you can see the

25 difference in orientation of bone strands from chaotic into well

Page 5148

1 organised longitudinal, which is again a further step, a further

2 refinement in the timing diagnosis.

3 Q. When you say a further refinement in the timing diagnosis, I

4 believe the transcript should read, what do you mean by that, what do you

5 mean by a further refinement?

6 A. Well, because in the beginning when the bone fibres are

7 depositioned at random and if they're on a microscopic level in a later

8 phase, are remodelled in a longitudinal direction, that needs more time.

9 And that means that that phase can be refined in its timing. It is a

10 phenomenon which cannot be seen with the naked eye nor with the X-ray

11 apparatus, so it is -- it gives a better timing diagnosis.

12 Q. So this is a -- if we understand you correctly this is a

13 refinement in timing that would not have been possible without the

14 microscopic analysis.

15 A. Yes. It would -- it would -- I wouldn't say it wouldn't have

16 been completely -- it would have been possible in fresh bone tissue but

17 it would have been impossible in dry bone tissue like what we are dealing

18 with here.

19 Q. And, Dr. Maat, one final question before we have our first break.

20 Do you know if there are other people, other scientists who are following

21 your technique of preparation of dry bone tissue for microscopic analysis

22 following -- well, I'll leave it at that. Do you know if there are other

23 people who follow your technique?

24 A. Yes, there are, but not that many. Up until a year ago, I think

25 in Goetingen in Germany this was done -- I think that is -- and north of

Page 5149

1 France at Lille there was done. And actually those were the only three

2 places where that happened.

3 But since that time we have been propagating it at the

4 conferences and into the journals are now coming papers by other

5 scientists who have taken this method into their routine work at the

6 departments.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 MR. SHIN: Your Honour, if that's a convenient time for you.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Doctor, we have to take a break now so the tapes

10 are changed and that takes 20 minutes. So we will resume at five past

11 four.

12 --- Recess taken at 3.43 p.m.

13 --- On resuming at 4.08 p.m.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Shin.

15 MR. SHIN: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. Dr. Maat, I'd like to turn now to the report that you prepared

17 for the Office of the Prosecutor dated the 13th of August, 2003.

18 Before the break -- well, let me explain this first.

19 I'd like to go through the report looking first at the

20 examinations that you conducted; and secondly, the materials that you had

21 at your disposal for that analysis; and then thirdly, to look at your

22 conclusions.

23 With regards first to the examinations, before the break you had

24 explained to us the three levels, first the gross anatomical examination,

25 secondly the X-ray or radiological examination, and thirdly the

Page 5150












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 5151

1 microscopic examination. Did you apply these three to your analysis for

2 the Office of the Prosecutor for this report?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, moving on to the materials that you were provided. Could

5 you tell us first what was -- could you tell us first or could you

6 describe for us first the bone material that you received in order to

7 conduct your examinations.

8 A. The bone material was stored in Orahovac at the morgue, and every

9 skeleton was packed in a separate carton box.

10 Q. And Orahovac is in Kosovo; is that correct?

11 A. Yes, that's right.

12 Q. Now, for the purposes of your gross physical examination -- I'm

13 sorry, let me ask you a couple more questions about the bone material.

14 Do you recall how many sets of -- how many separate carton boxes you were

15 provided for your analysis? And if you need to refer to your report,

16 please -- please let me know.

17 A. I thought there were ten boxes. I could check. Ten boxes, yes.

18 That was ten separate individuals and two boxes with so-called surface

19 finds.

20 Q. And where did you conduct your gross physical examination?

21 A. At Orahovac if it comes to the gross anatomical part; in Prizren

22 at the military camp of the German army if it comes to the X-ray

23 examination; and in Leiden here in the Netherlands if it comes to the

24 microscopic observations.

25 Q. When you received -- when you went to the Orahovac morgue for the

Page 5152

1 purpose of the gross anatomical examination, did you notice anything

2 unusual about the bones at any point?

3 A. Not really unusual. Are you heading at something special?

4 Q. Were the -- were all the bones properly in their box or did you

5 notice any difficulties with that?

6 A. Yes. Basically the bones were properly in their boxes, and I

7 think I have some sort of memory that one or two bones had been misplaced

8 in the boxes, ones that had been filled before my time, which was very

9 apparent because bones that were - how you call this? - were extra,

10 supernumerary bones. I think one or two. And they could easily be put

11 into the right box, these one and two, because they were missing in the

12 others.

13 Q. And as far as you can recall, did you have any difficulty at all

14 replacing the bones to their proper boxes?

15 A. Not at all.

16 Q. Were those bones that you recall in the improper boxes, these one

17 or two bones, are these bones that you examined for the purposes of this

18 report?

19 A. Not for the purpose of this report. I have let them go through

20 my hands and I have inspected them, but they were not bones with any

21 pathological changes on it.

22 Q. And just the final question on that: Did the -- did the

23 placement of these one or two bones in the improper box, did that have

24 any impact, as far as you can see, any impact on your analysis?

25 A. Not at all.

Page 5153

1 Q. Who provided you the bones for you to analyse, for the gross

2 anatomical examination in you were in Orahovac?

3 A. One of the technicians of the morgue. I don't recollect his

4 name.

5 Q. And you had explained to us that the X-ray analysis was done in

6 Prizren; is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Who brought the bones over to Prizren for that analysis?

9 A. Did I that myself. I packed them, numbered them, and took them

10 with me.

11 Q. And if you could please just speak up a little bit, Dr. Maat.

12 You don't have to lean so close to the microphones.

13 A. Okay.

14 Q. They should be able to pick up your voice anyway.

15 And who selected -- who selected the bones for the radiological

16 examination, the X-ray exam?

17 A. That's what I did myself as well.

18 Q. And were you findings from the gross anatomical examination in

19 Orahovac and your X-ray examination in Prizren, are they set out in your

20 report?

21 A. Yes, both in the table.

22 Q. I'd like to turn now if -- I believe you have a copy of your

23 report there.

24 MR. SHIN: Your Honours, this is behind tab 3 in the binder.

25 Q. Could you please just point out the page on which there's an

Page 5154

1 explanation of where the gross anatomical and the X-ray analysis was

2 conducted.

3 A. This is in it under the paragraph "Results." That has a huge

4 table which is subdivided into first perimortem fractures, that is

5 fractures which happened around the moment of death. That is two pages.

6 And then again two pages with so called antemortem fractures. That are

7 fractures that happened before death.

8 Q. Okay. We will look at those charts in a minute.

9 MR. SHIN: Your Honour if we could please have a number for the

10 expert report itself.

11 JUDGE PARKER: The report will be received.

12 MR. SHIN: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Prosecution Exhibit for tab number

14 3, P192 -- sorry, P200. Beg your pardon. P200.

15 MR. SHIN:

16 Q. Before we turn to the chart I would like to ask you briefly about

17 the microscopic analysis. Who made the selection of the bones to conduct

18 the microscopic analysis upon first?

19 A. I selected them from the skeletal remains in the box. That is to

20 say, I took all the remains out without exception, put them in the

21 anatomical articulated position to see if the skeleton was complete, take

22 a gross anatomical inspection of every bone and pick those out which I

23 thought of interest.

24 Q. When you say bones that you "thought of interest," what do you

25 mean by that?

Page 5155

1 A. I mean by the naked eye you could see healing changes.

2 Q. And where did you conduct the microscopic analysis?

3 A. At the Orahovac morgue itself.

4 Q. Was the analysis of the -- microscopic analysis was that actually

5 conducted in the Orahovac morgue or was that elsewhere?

6 A. No, no. There.

7 Q. Did you prepare the samples in Orahovac as well?

8 A. I took those out which I thought of interest. Those were taken

9 to the Prizren X-ray section of the German army, and then they were

10 transported by myself to Leiden University where they were prepared for

11 microscopy.

12 Q. So the microscopic -- the material for the microscopic analysis

13 was prepared in Leiden; is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And who brought the -- I think you just explained that you

16 transported those yourself to Leiden.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Where are those bone samples maintained?

19 A. They are kept in our department in our unit.

20 Q. Who has access to those bone samples?

21 A. Me myself and the chief technician.

22 Q. Now as for your conclusions, and we'll go into detail to look at

23 the conclusions as they're is the out in the charts, is there a place in

24 your report where we can see in brief the conclusions of your

25 examinations? And perhaps to speed things up I will simply direct you to

Page 5156

1 a page marked at the top with an ERN U0036430. That should be the last

2 page of your report.

3 A. Yes, I have it.

4 Q. Could you -- at the top of that page we have two paragraphs with

5 the title "Conclusions With Respect to the Perimortem Fractures." Could

6 you explain to us briefly what those findings are.

7 A. Those findings boil down to the conclusion that all individuals

8 showed perimortem fractures.

9 Q. And just so that we're clear, what does perimortem mean?

10 A. Perimortem means around the moment of death. That could be short

11 before, during dying or short after.

12 Q. And the next two paragraphs have the heading "Conclusion With

13 Respect to the Antemortem Fractures." And there are two paragraphs

14 there. Could you explain to us first the top paragraph and then the

15 second paragraph.

16 A. Yeah. The top paragraph concerns antemortem changes which had

17 been inflicted two to three weeks before death and the second

18 subparagraph is on antemortem changes showing that the moment of

19 infliction lay many years before dying. So they were old fractures so to

20 say.

21 Q. Okay. Is there an error in that second paragraph the sentence

22 that begins "In addition, case and 989 and 990," that sentence?

23 A. Yes, because the table shows that one number has dropped out.

24 That was 986.

25 Q. And I believe we can see that at the page marked with the ERN

Page 5157

1 number U0036419. Would that be correct, Dr. Maat?

2 A. Could you repeat that for me please.

3 Q. Yes, it's U0036419.

4 A. Yes. 986. That's the top in the top of the table.

5 Q. Okay. And before we get to your explanation of how you came

6 about these findings, your basis for these conclusions, if we could, as

7 you were doing earlier, turn back to the chart and if you could just

8 explain to us what the chart -- how we should read the chart. Perhaps a

9 good place to begin you had explained there were two different charts one

10 entitled "Perimortem Fractures," and that is ERN pages U0036417 and 6418.

11 And then a two -- two pages of charts U0036419 and 6420 which have the

12 heading "Antemortem Fractures."

13 A. This division of the tables is consistent all over the four

14 pages. It first mentions the number of the individual given by the

15 forensic anthropologist of the OSCE. Then it gives his or her conclusion

16 on the sex determination done at that time. The same holds for the age

17 at death determinations. So that is the first three columns of the

18 table. After that so to say is my business: The perimortem fractures

19 are enlisted. The following column the X-ray observations in relation to

20 found changes are given and then the microscopic changes. That is the

21 third level. And finally there is a conclusion on the time of the

22 injury, the time between the infliction of the injury and the moment of

23 death.

24 Q. And just so we're clear, then, the -- your conclusions are found

25 that a column titled "Time of Injury"; is that correct?

Page 5158

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And these are your conclusions based on your examination?

3 A. Sure.

4 Q. And also just so that we're clear, which column reflects your

5 findings on -- of the gross anatomical examination?

6 A. That's the one, two, third -- fourth come up heading "Perimortem

7 Fractures of."

8 Q. I note that you have in these four pages of charts the occasional

9 appearance of the letters "N.A." do you explain what that means?

10 A. That is not applicable. It means there may have been something

11 but it was not clear enough to be taken in in a category. That means if

12 the -- for instance, if the -- if I was not sure that the fracture was

13 really a perimortem fracture it would not show in the conclusions to --

14 so it would not cause any confusion. So only cases beyond doubt were

15 accepted in the table.

16 Q. Also on the charts or the tables --

17 A. Or that were not there. That could be as well.

18 Q. I'm sorry?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Also, for example, on the second page with the ERN U0036418,

21 there appear some question marks.

22 A. Yeah, yeah.

23 Q. Could you please explain what that signifies?

24 A. Yes. That has more or less the same meaning. In that case the

25 bone found was sufficiently intact to decide which anatomical part it

Page 5159

1 was, but the change found was not specific enough to be sure about the

2 diagnosis. So following that line horizontally, you will find in "Time

3 of Injury" again a question mark.

4 Q. And perhaps just a little explanation on the descriptions of the

5 bones themselves which appear under the column "Perimortem Fractures of."

6 When you have the letters R and L, what --

7 A. That's left and right. Left and right side of the body.

8 Q. And if we look at U0036418, in several instances following the

9 word "Ribs," we have numbers. Could you please describe what that means?

10 A. Why. That's just the number of the rib. At every side of the

11 body we have 12 ribs and they are numbered consecutively from 1 to 12

12 from up, down to the lower. So that indicates specifically which rib.

13 Q. And I note also that at the bottom of the page on most of these

14 -- on actually every page, there is a small set of abbreviations with an

15 explanation what those abbreviations are; is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, if we could return to your conclusions. And that is on page

18 U0036430?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. I'd like to focus on the first paragraph under the heading

21 "Conclusions With Respect to the Antemortem Fractures." As you described

22 to us earlier, your conclusions are that there were three -- three

23 individual sets of bones, namely NN 987 and NN 990 and NN 991 which

24 showed multiple antemortem fractures, which as you indicate here in your

25 report were inflicted two to three weeks before death. Could you explain

Page 5160

1 to us now the basis for coming to that conclusion. And again I

2 understand that you have prepared some of this explanation in your

3 slides. We might be able to use the index to the slides to direct -- to

4 go directly to the slides that may illustrate this.

5 We needn't go through every -- every body, but if you could -- if

6 you could -- to give the Judges an idea of the kinds of things you were

7 looking at --

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. -- if we could please turn -- perhaps it might be useful to look

10 first at this NN 987.

11 MR. SHIN: And, Your Honours, you might find it helpful to refer

12 to the cross-reference guide extracted from Prosecution Exhibit 112 as to

13 the results of DNA tests on those NN numbers, on the samples from those

14 NN numbers.

15 A. Did I understand you want an elucidation of number 987?

16 MR. SHIN:

17 Q. Yes, if we could begin with number 987 and using the slides that

18 you have with you, if you could explain to us what it was you examined.

19 And we have of course in the charts your conclusions based on the three

20 levels of analysis. But if you could using these slides point us

21 directly to what you were looking at to come to this conclusion.

22 A. Could I do a suggestion?

23 Q. Sure.

24 A. And first do 986? Not because it's lower in ranking, because it

25 shows fractures with no healing, and then the comparison with the healing

Page 5161

1 process will be more clear.

2 Q. Okay. Of course.

3 A. Is that okay with you?

4 Q. Of course.

5 A. So that would be, according to your list, slide number 15.

6 Q. And that would be ERN U0087849.

7 MR. SHIN: And of course, Your Honours, using the index to the

8 slides you'll be able to find where we are.

9 Q. Okay. Dr. Maat if you could explain to us --

10 A. On the slide it is a survey photo of the skull and the atlas,

11 that is the top vertebra in the spine. The atlas is only shown there

12 because it has an interesting congenital malformation which has nothing

13 to do with the case. It's a sort of inborn error.

14 The skull is of interest because is shows bullet-shot hole at the

15 right side. The arrow indicates that place, with the characteristic

16 radiating fractures from the bullet hole. And as you can see because of

17 the blow the skull is fragmented, and we'll take a closer look at one of

18 these fragments. Because the person died of the shot, it is apparently a

19 fracture that happened in the perimortem era.

20 On the next slide you see that fragment. It is a triangular

21 fragment. It is inspected by the naked eye. And as you can see, the

22 smooth upper side, that is the outside of the skull and you see at the

23 left also a little bit -- a part of the marrow.

24 The thing what it is all about on this slide is that the edges of

25 the piece of bone which are actually the fracture lines are sharp and

Page 5162

1 abrupt. There is no growth whatsoever near the edge. It is just a

2 smooth cut, like a pot shard.

3 On the next slide you see the same triangular piece of bone but

4 looked on through the X-ray. And then you see the contours of the bone

5 again. It becomes very clear that the edges do not show any increase in

6 density which would indicate a growth process or a repair process.

7 Apparently after the fragmentation, no growth has happened at all.

8 Now the following slide shows you a microscopic section viewed

9 with polarised light. Now, this is a survey photo of that section, and I

10 have to explain this a little bit more.

11 At the top end where the section is smooth, we have the outer

12 surface of the skull, and at the far lower end where the arrow is with

13 the word "Detail" is the inner side of the skull which is smooth as well.

14 In between you see the callus bone of the bone marrow. Now we are going

15 to take a look at the spot which is indicated by the arrow with detail to

16 see how of this triangular part of bone, how the breaking edge looks

17 like. That is seen one the next slide. And that is exactly the same

18 corner of the same section. And if you look at that, it will come to you

19 that the lower part of what is visible is arranged in -- is nicely

20 arranged in parallel strands of bone tissue which at the left side end

21 abruptly. The bone strands are broken off. They are somewhat raveled, a

22 sort of blind end of the lamina tissue. And that means even on a

23 microscopic level no repair activities can be seen. Typical for a

24 perimortem fracture.

25 Now you want me to go to the other case you mentioned or you want

Page 5163

1 me to proceed with the slide show?

2 Q. If you could proceed with the slide show. But if I could

3 interrupt for one minute and direct your attention to the first page of

4 the table in your report and that has the ERN number U0036417. The third

5 column there or fourth column from the top, I'm sorry the fourth row from

6 the top marked NN 986. If you've found that Dr. Maat.

7 A. Yes, I have it.

8 Q. Is that the bone you've just been telling us about?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And that's why -- that's where your conclusion is that the time

11 of injury was around death?

12 A. Yes. So it says sharp edges and no density on the X-ray and on

13 my microscopy no regeneration and no dispersed bone spicules which you

14 would find with the onset of the healing process.

15 Q. Thank you. And I believe you were going to go to NN 991 and

16 before we go to the slides, could you just turn the page to the next page

17 of the table, U0036148.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And I believe that is the fourth row again NN 991.

20 A. Uh-huh.

21 Q. And before we begin your explanation the basis for your

22 conclusion through the slides could you tell us which bone of those four

23 bones we will be looking at?

24 A. None. Because in the slide show, we will show you the

25 regeneration process from the healing which is not in the table

Page 5164

1 "Perimortem Fractures," but two pages on with the "Antemortem Fractures."

2 Q. Okay. Thank you for that clarification. That would be ERN page

3 U0036420.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. There's only one line item there, NN 991. Which bone are we

6 going to be looking at?

7 A. We're going to be looking at the top bone of that subsection

8 which is indicated with R-tibia and then in brackets shaft. That's the

9 right shin bone and we're going to look at the shaft of that.

10 Q. Thank you. If you would return to the slides.

11 A. On the first slide you see an overview of bones which are of

12 interest and the bone we're going to look at in detail is the shin bone.

13 That's the second from below. That's the largest bone seen.

14 As you can see, the bone is broken and where the broken bones are

15 opposed to each other the bone is somewhat thickened. We will take a

16 look at that in detail on the next side. One broken end is seen there of

17 the tibia of the shin bone and you can easily see that bone has been

18 added onto that broken end. On the outer side. The inner side cannot be

19 expected. The arrows indicate the healing process.

20 One slide further we have exactly the same bone but then on

21 X-ray, and the arrows show you the place where the bone addition has

22 happened of the healing process. That is what it would look like in a

23 living individual with a healing broken tibia.

24 Now, more interestingly, we're going to look at the microscopic

25 level at the next slide. There we see where the arrows are running from

Page 5165

1 top downwards the fracture line, and at the fracture line you can see in

2 contrast is to what I've shown you first is that there is -- has happened

3 smoothening of the fracture surface. It is not raveled any longer, and

4 it is not -- it is interrupted but all corners are smoothened. There are

5 special cells which are doing that in preparation of the repair process

6 taking all loose ends off.

7 On that same bone, we are going to the next slide, and there you

8 see in the top the original cortical tissue of that bone and at the level

9 of that white horizontal line is the outer surface running from the left

10 to the right. So above that line the bone is very dense as cortical bone

11 should be, and the bone addition which we saw on the X-ray and with the

12 naked eye is what is called here the callus. And looking at the callus,

13 you can see that it is much more loose bone tissue. It is meshy with a

14 lot of spaces in between. That it is brownish with polarised light

15 because fibres are running in all sorts of directions. That is the first

16 phase of callus formation. But that is very important. You can see that

17 the bone strands are becoming organised from left to right. These bone

18 strands light up like the original cortical layer. That means that the

19 remodelling is happening there and the chaotic is transformed by

20 remodelling into bone strands which run parallel to the longitudinal axis

21 of the original bone.

22 In the cortex we are going to touch in the dense part, the upper

23 part which we first saw. We are going to look at detail now. And there

24 you can see this typical cutting and closing cones. Now, the cutting

25 cone is the white sort of torpedo-shaped opening in the bone tissue with

Page 5166

1 arrow inside. On the left of that opening you will see that the cutting

2 cone cells are taking away bone tissue was if somebody has sunken his

3 teeth into cheese. It's a little bit scalloped. That will work further

4 and further to the left in the direction of the fracture.

5 At the same slide you see at the top another white opening

6 showing actually the same phenomenon. But that the right side of that

7 opening at the tail end you can see that the tissue opening is starting

8 to get filled in with new bone tissue. And so you can imagine if this

9 process progresses from right to left, a channel will be drilled to the

10 fracture surface and at the tail side of the drilling it will be filled

11 in with new bone which will eventually cross the fracture gap to the the

12 other side of the fracture to stabilise it as an internal splint.

13 You will understand that you have to live some time to develop this. And

14 from scientific literature, we know the timing of that.

15 The next slide shows you a rather stunning phenomenon that in

16 these so-called cutting cones, even in this case a few years after death,

17 some red blood cells are there. Some way or the other the preservation

18 conditions were such that a few of these cells have stayed there. They

19 are known to have quite good survival rates.

20 Q. Dr. Maat, I'm sorry. If I could interrupt you for one minute

21 there.

22 MR. SHIN: Your Honours, it may -- as we hear this explanation,

23 you may want to refer to behind tab 2 in your bundle. The pages U0087846

24 and the two following pages. Dr. Maat had already described to us

25 earlier the timing of the healing process but reference to those three

Page 5167

1 pages may assist you as he goes through the slides.

2 Q. Dr. Maat, my apologies for the interruption. You were explaining

3 -- you were explaining in this current slide some red blood cells and --

4 A. Yes. Which is actually -- I'm just mentioning this as a sign of

5 good preservation of the bone tissue so a proper assessment can be made.

6 On the next slide you will see the cortical area which is this

7 dense blueish bone on the top half of the slide. And where the arrows

8 are you see again that the bone outer surface is roughened by cells who

9 have been taking pit lumps of bone tissue. This is especially done to

10 get a firm attachment of the callus collar around the bone. Otherwise if

11 the surface would stay smooth it would slip off.

12 The next slide shows you the conclusion on this in relation to

13 the table which the Prosecutor has just mentioned and that these -- no,

14 no. The conclusion -- sorry. Excuse me for confusing you. The next

15 slide is actually not at this moment of interest because I think I have

16 explained what you see microscopically to come to your conclusion.

17 After the conclusions shown on this next slide, there are more examples

18 which I'm prepared to elucidate if you would like to see that.

19 Q. Yes. Dr. Maat, if you could please go on, but for now could you

20 just go to the very next slide.

21 A. "Conclusions on Antemortem Fractures" or "Perimortem Fractures"?

22 Q. On this slide. Is there an error that needs to be corrected on

23 this slide?

24 A. Yes. That's the same error which we already mentioned, and that

25 is about number 986, which indeed shows antemortem fractures, remains of

Page 5168

1 antemortem fracture but not of two to three weeks before death but of

2 many years before death.

3 Q. Okay. Thank you and just to be clear on the record that is a

4 correction to ERN U0087863.

5 And if you could please continue, Dr. Maat, to explain another

6 example of how you've come to your conclusions.

7 A. That is the next slide. That was the case 987 which you first

8 asked me to explain.

9 Q. And before we -- before you begin that, could I just refer us to

10 the -- to your report, the third page of the tables, that is ERN

11 U0036419.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And I know you'll direct me if I'm making a reference to the

14 wrong row. The third row there says NN 987. I'm sorry. You've found

15 it?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Which bone are we going to be looking at of those three?

18 A. On the first slide it is not seen yet. This is to show you also

19 other bones of the same person, especially the bullet hole on top of the

20 skull.

21 Q. Okay. And then when we go into the next slide?

22 A. Then you see immediately under the ruler the sternum, the breast

23 bone.

24 Q. Okay. Thank you. And so that would be the first of those three

25 bones you have listed on that table in your report?

Page 5169

1 A. Yes. Sure.

2 Q. Okay. Thank you. If you could please continue.

3 A. We'll first look at the next slide to the sternum more in detail,

4 and when doing so then you will see that it has a crack which runs from

5 the right to the left but doesn't completely separate the bone in two

6 parts. And one both sides of that crack you will see bone reaction in

7 the form of bone apposition, additive bone which is placed on top of

8 that. But that is from the outside.

9 On the next slide we will see the same in X-ray and then you can

10 clearly see that this is not just a crack but that there is increased

11 density of bone tissue along both sides of the crack which is bone

12 formation during a live situation.

13 I will take again next slide and then you see that this piece of

14 sternum has been embedded in plastic. The arrow shows the crack, and on

15 the other side the sternum is still intact.

16 We will have a closer look at that crack on the next slide. The

17 crack is visible at the right. At the top we see the cortical layer of

18 one side of the sternum and at the bottom we see the cortical layer of

19 the other side of the sternum. On the outside at the top we see some

20 tissue which we will take a closer look at, but interesting is to see

21 here that within the sternum there is also an increase in bone density

22 because you also have a so-called internal callus, extra bone formation

23 inside the sternum itself.

24 Now we're going to take a look at the top side of the crack on

25 the next slide. And there at the left corner you will see a small arrow

Page 5170

1 of the -- pointing to bone added to the outer surface and that bone we

2 will look into detail on the slide thereafter. It is exactly the same

3 spot. You may recognise the outline of it, and that shows the whitish

4 area of the original cortical bone of the sternum and the added bone on

5 top which is a little reddish.

6 In that --

7 Q. I'm sorry, Dr. Maat, just so we're clear, what does lamellar mean

8 on that slide?

9 A. Layered.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 A. And -- and you can see that it is layered in a longitudinal

12 direction because it is like -- I don't know the English word for this.

13 Like "bladerdeeg." Does somebody know that word in English?

14 Okay. Doesn't matter anyway. It's clearly layered in a

15 longitudinal direction running from left to right showing again that

16 there is a remodelling process going on from the chaotic first callus

17 deposition to the next phase in which it is becoming more organised.

18 The next slide shows you of the same person the sixth left rib.

19 The rib is broken. It is not completely healed, and on top of the rib

20 you see also extra bone formation. The part where the arrow is we will

21 take a look at first on X-ray and then we will look to that

22 microscopically.

23 The next slide shows you the X-ray, same arrow, and shows you how

24 bone growth has added new bone tissue onto the outer side. Without that

25 the crack is bridged.

Page 5171

1 The next slide shows you that same rib end, fracture end,

2 embedded in plastic. The arrow indicates the additional bone and that

3 bone tissue we're going to look at detail on the next slide.

4 We'll go into further detail of that, but before doing so, you

5 will notice that on the top arrow you have additional bone, and in the

6 middle you have a horizontal bone indicating the callus formation on the

7 inside of the bone.

8 Now, the next slide will show you that top part again. It's very

9 clear that it is added onto the outside of the regular bone tissue which

10 is running from right to the left and which is orderly organised in

11 layers.

12 And the next slide shows you the inside of the callus, which is

13 almost everywhere very chaotic. Only at the very few places it shows

14 some remodelling, which means actually that there actually is a healing

15 going on but the healing is not so far as I have shown you in the tibia.

16 So it comes very close to that phase. It may differ from that only a few

17 days.

18 The next slide shows you from that same rib also the smoothening

19 process of the broken end. As you can see, there are no longer loose

20 fibre strands hanging into the fracture gap. Everything is smoothened.

21 And then the next slide is on the next case. I don't know if you

22 want to --

23 Q. Yes?

24 A. -- hear about that.

25 Q. Dr. Maat if you could, but before you do, if once again I could

Page 5172












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 5173

1 refer you to your report to point out where in the tables we can find the

2 bone you were going to look at. I believe this should be on ERN

3 U0036419, and that would be the last row marked NN 990. And once again,

4 Your Honours, you'll fine the cross-reference to the NN numbers in the

5 one-page cross-reference guide.

6 And, Dr. Maat, I see in this row NN 990 there are two bones

7 listed there, this --

8 A. Spondylolysis?

9 Q. Spondylolysis, L-5.

10 A. L-5, that is the fifth lumbar vertebra of which the arch is

11 separated from the body of the vertebra. You can see that very

12 beautifully on the slide. Just above the ruler you see at the right side

13 two vertebras. One on which the arch is fixed to the body of the

14 vertebra and left one the body is separated.

15 Q. What does spondylolysis mean?

16 A. It Means that the arch has separated from the body and the cause

17 of that is mechanical trauma. But it is a medical trauma not from long

18 before. It is the result -- actually, it happens in people who are not

19 prepared to do heavy labour. They strengthen their back muscles into a

20 sort of titanic contraction and by that pull the arch of the vertebral

21 body. It does hurt very much, but if you keep using your back, it will

22 not heal. It has nothing to do actually with this case, because it

23 happened long before.

24 Q. Okay. And so I take it, then, we will be looking at one of the

25 ribs on that second line.

Page 5174

1 A. Yes. We will be looking at one of the ribs because they show

2 so-called greenstick fractures.

3 Q. And could you tell us what is a greenstick fracture?

4 A. Well, everybody will have experienced that if you take a branch

5 of a young tree, it will break but both parts will not separate. There

6 will come a crack but there will always be fibres still crossing, making

7 it difficult to pull both ends apart. That happens, of course -- that

8 can only in living tissue. If you have dry bone tissue in the ground it

9 may break completely through. But if you do that in live individuals,

10 break a rib, then frequently some part of it stays together.

11 Q. Okay.

12 A. I'll show you that in detail on the next slide where you can see

13 the crack in the convex side of the rib where the concave side is still

14 intact. We will go to that in detail.

15 On the next slide you can see the X-ray. The rib we were talking

16 about is shown where the arrow is. Not only can you see the crack but

17 you can see at the topside opposite to the crack of the rib that there is

18 some extra bone formation which stayed unnoticed when we were only

19 looking with the naked eye.

20 The next slide shows you that place. We have almost come to the

21 end of the slide show. The top arrow shows you the callus formation at

22 the outside of the rib. The lower arrow shows you the callus formation

23 in the inside of the rib, and the middle arrow I would like to show you

24 because of a particular detail which is on the next slide. Because in

25 that end you can beautifully see following the arrows that such a cutting

Page 5175

1 cone is working its way from the left to the right to the surface of the

2 crack to make an opening in the fracture gap.

3 And you will understand that if this canal is filled up with bone

4 tissue from left to right and it crosses the crack that that will formate

5 an internal splint for the bone healing process. And you will also

6 understand that it will take time, at least two weeks' repair activity,

7 to drill such a hole longitudinal in the bone.

8 Q. And, Dr. Maat, when you say it takes two weeks we're talking

9 about phase 6 in the healing process that you were describing earlier?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And that can be --

12 MR. SHIN: Your Honours, that is on the slides ERN U0087847

13 [sic].

14 Q. Just quickly on this, Dr. Maat. Is there -- I'm sorry, on the

15 next slide. Is there an error on this slide?

16 A. Yes. It's the same error again. Some way or the other by the

17 copy and paste possibility of your computer, the little mistake keeps on

18 repeating itself.

19 Q. Could you explain what that error is?

20 A. Again, that 986 is missing.

21 Q. Thank you. And just for the record --

22 A. It's not really important, but it's nevertheless nice to show

23 because it's on fractures which are of many years before death. They do

24 not really add weight to the case but nevertheless they are interesting

25 to show. It would be interesting to show one of them to see how the

Page 5176

1 healing process eventually comes to an end.

2 Q. Okay. And I think that would be -- if you could, please, explain

3 that.

4 MR. SHIN: First I note for the record that the correction of

5 adding NN 986 as just described by the witness comes on ERN page

6 U0087884.

7 Q. And if you could please continue, Dr. Maat. But just before we

8 do turning once again to your reports and the tables. I believe we'll be

9 looking at NN 989, which is on --

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. -- ERN page U0034619. That is the third line, NN 989. And I

12 believe the only bone there is the L scapula; correct?

13 A. Sure, the left scapula.

14 Q. Okay. Thank you.

15 A. That is shown on the next slide first cross anatomically. Also

16 the skull is shown shattered by a gunshot. The arrow is facing to the

17 top margin of the triangular piece of bone, the scapula, and as you can

18 see that top line is not straight. The top border, the margin is not

19 straight. It looks odd. We'll look at that on the next slide, first in

20 detail cross anatomically.

21 There you can see that all sorts of originally separated pieces

22 of bone have it looks like melted onto the margin. They have grown and

23 become fixed to that after separation. You do not see this porous

24 additional bone tissue which you were used to when looking at the repair

25 activities of fractures. The so-called callus bone is not there. The

Page 5177

1 outside cortex is very smooth.

2 When we look at the next slide with the same place with an X-ray

3 you see that bone healing activity has come to a rest. Everything along

4 the upper margin is filled in in a very smooth way, and that can only be

5 if a fracture has healed long, long time before death. And that will of

6 course have nothing to do with the event which we are focusing on today.

7 But nevertheless, would I like to show you that if the healing process

8 gets a chance to be finished, it will look like that.

9 Q. Thank you for that explanation, Dr. Maat. You have explained to

10 us through these slides the basis for your conclusions on several of the

11 bones from, I believe, four -- four different sets of bones, and you've

12 explained your -- the basis of these conclusions have been -- have come

13 from your gross anatomical analyses as well as your X-ray analyses as we

14 have on the screen now and as well as the microscopic examination.

15 Is this the same using all three levels of examination, is this

16 the same way that you came to your conclusions throughout your report?

17 A. Sure.

18 Q. You mentioned earlier as well that in terms of the rate of

19 healing there may be some factors that can affect that. You mentioned

20 scurvy.

21 A. Uh-huh.

22 Q. When it was scurvy or some reasons that might have an affect on

23 the rate of healing, did you see any evidence of that in any of your

24 examinations, whether on the gross anatomical X-ray or on the microscopic

25 level?

Page 5178

1 A. No. I didn't see them, because if that was so, you couldn't see

2 healing active in terms of avitaminosis C. All cracks and fractures

3 would stay as they are and no healing process would happen. Only some

4 reabsorption process of bone tissue but no bone addition, because growth

5 is not possible. Vitamin C is necessary to do that.

6 Q. Just one perhaps obvious question. Is it possible for any bone

7 repair, bone healing process, any process at all, is it possible after

8 death?

9 A. No, that's not possible.

10 Q. Okay. Now, if I could turn again to your report. There are four

11 pages of tables and I'll be referring to the last two pages. These are

12 the two pages of tables headed "Antemortem Fractures," ERN numbers

13 U0036419 and 6420.

14 A. Uh-huh.

15 Q. You have in that last column, which is headed "Passage of Time

16 After Antemortem Injury Until Death," you have set out there your

17 conclusions as to that -- that issue. In several instances, we can see

18 that you have the letter "ca. preceding time period." Can you please

19 explain what you mean about that ca. period.

20 A. Well, ca. is for the circa, and that is because there may be a

21 little individual difference in the speed of healing between persons.

22 Although that will be a very little bit, I cannot predict how the growth

23 condition of that person is, and so I need a margin to get a -- a

24 diagnosis with confidence.

25 Q. And when you say that you need a margin, is it possible to say --

Page 5179

1 even if you can't say specifically what the margin is, is it possible to

2 say what the margin is not?

3 A. Oh, yes, for sure.

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. The margin is not a week.

6 Q. So it's less than a week.

7 A. It's less than a week. It's a matter of only a few days because

8 the events at the beginning of the healing process following each other

9 very rapidly. And as I explained before, it is an automated process sort

10 of like a cascade process.

11 Q. So where you have - I take it then where you have "ca. three

12 weeks," that could not be in your -- as you explained it, that that could

13 not be four weeks?

14 A. Yes. And could not be two weeks.

15 Q. Okay. Thank you, Dr. Maat. The conclusions you have here in

16 your report and in particular the conclusions you have on these two pages

17 regarding antemortem fractures, how certain are you in your conclusions?

18 A. I feel very confident about it. You want me to give a

19 percentage? It's impossible.

20 Q. You don't have to give a percentage, but if you could just

21 explain how certain are you and that might be sufficient.

22 A. Well, I am very, very certain since the signs as though show

23 especially microscopically are extremely clear and can only be

24 interpreted in one way.

25 Q. Okay. Thank you for -- thank you for that, Dr. Maat.

Page 5180

1 MR. SHIN: Your Honours, the Prosecution has no further

2 questions. I'm not sure if there will be questions from others.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Shin.

4 Mr. Mansfield, any questions?

5 MR. MANSFIELD: Your Honour, no questions. Thank you.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Guy-Smith?

7 MR. GUY-SMITH: A question or two.

8 Cross-examined by Mr. Guy-Smith:

9 Q. As -- I understand the work that -- the work that you've done,

10 Doctor, you've done a fair amount of work forensically with regard to

11 identifying bodies; correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And as I understand your work look through your curriculum vitae,

14 there is a chart at the back which would be on 0082288, which has

15 "Forensic Reports on Age Determination of the Living By Means of an

16 X-Ray."

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Is that the work when you were referring to having done forensic

19 work with regard to testifying in court that you were referring to?

20 A. For instance, yes.

21 Q. Okay. With regard to the testimony that you've engaged in --

22 A. Uh-huh.

23 Q. -- in the past year, have you -- have you testified at a previous

24 occasion with regard the kinds of things you've been talking about here

25 today?

Page 5181

1 A. I testified in the sense that it is put in reports and accepted

2 by the court without that it had been necessary to explain it in detail

3 like in this situation.

4 Q. Okay. This is the first time you've had the opportunity to do --

5 to do that with regard to this -- this technique that you've developed?

6 A. Well, only is it the first time to do that in court.

7 Q. Okay.

8 A. On the scientific level, internationally, I have done so for many

9 years frequently and written papers on that.

10 Q. You've indicated as I understand your testimony the technique --

11 and as a matter of fact as I was going through and I believe it's tab 2

12 you indicate that this is -- this is a new technique.

13 A. Yes, the preparation technique is new.

14 Q. With regard to the -- the new technique that -- that you've

15 employed, I'm assuming that in -- in -- in the scientific community, it's

16 kind of revolutionary in that you finally found a way of coming up with

17 some new ideas to allow people to understand things that exist but

18 haven't been up until this point dealt with. Is that -- is that a fair

19 statement?

20 A. No, not.

21 Q. Okay. Fair enough. What would be fair in that regard?

22 A. Well, it would be fair to say that this has been introduced to

23 the scientific community some seven years ago and has since been that --

24 since that time dealt with, and that the technique is only making

25 something visible in dry bone tissue which was already visible in fresh

Page 5182

1 bone tissue.

2 Q. With regard to the technique as I understand it, the technique

3 was employed up until a year ago in three places, that is in Goetingen in

4 Germany, in Lille in France and I take it here in Holland?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Those are the three places where it technique was being --

7 A. Mainly, yes.

8 Q. Is this the kind of technique where there have been studies in

9 the scientific community? For example, I don't know what they're called,

10 blind studies or something like that to make a determination of whether

11 or not the manner in which you put this preparation together has any

12 errors or not?

13 A. I hope I have understood your question.

14 Q. I hope I've said it properly. If I hasn't --

15 A. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There have been performed many studies with

16 this technique on dry bone tissue. If it comes to blind studies it comes

17 for instance in using this technique for age of death determination by

18 looking at the remodelling process in the cortical layer of the femur.

19 And that -- there are quite a few blind studies on that, yes.

20 Q. But age of death determination is distinct from age of injury

21 determination, is it not?

22 A. No -- Well, it is to some extent but basically not because the

23 bone remodelling process the biological process which is happening in the

24 bone is actually the same process only the one is caused by an injury and

25 the other is caused by aging. Like, you can have an inflammation because

Page 5183

1 you make a cut in your finger but you could get the same inflammation by

2 slamming with a hammer on it.

3 MR. GUY-SMITH: I think I understand. Thank you very much.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Powles.

5 MR. POWLES: No thank you, no questions, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Re-examination, Mr. Shin?

7 MR. SHIN: No re-examination from the Prosecution, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Professor, you will have understood from what has

9 happened that there are no further questions for you. You have persuaded

10 counsel to silence.

11 THE WITNESS: Sorry.

12 JUDGE PARKER: On behalf of the Chamber may we thank you very

13 much for your careful and detailed assistance and your very lucid

14 explanations. And we invite you now to leave and return to your normal

15 activities.

16 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you indeed.


19 [The witness withdrew]

20 JUDGE PARKER: That perhaps a convenient time, Mr. Whiting? A

21 little early, but --

22 MR. WHITING: It is, Your Honour, and just to forecast events

23 after the break, we do not have another witness for today. The next

24 witness will start tomorrow. However, we do have more documents and

25 agreed facts to move into evidence. That won't take the whole time to

Page 5184

1 7.00, but it will certainly take a little bit of time.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Well, then we'll have a break now to strengthen

3 ourselves for that.

4 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE PARKER: We will presume at twenty-five minutes to six.

6 --- Recess taken at 5.14 p.m.

7 --- On resuming at 5.38 p.m.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Whiting.

9 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour. We have a few more matters

10 that we can deal with in the remaining time, and they all relate to the

11 second binder that was provided to the parties and to the Court.

12 Slightly smaller than the first binder.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Slightly. Yes.

14 MR. WHITING: At tab 1 in -- in this binder is the expert report

15 of Stephanie Schwandner-Sievers and Ger Duijzings, dated 31 May, 2004.

16 And the Prosecution and Defence have reached agreement, and again I would

17 commend the Defence for all of its efforts at expediting this trial and

18 reaching agreement on these matters. We've reached agreement that this

19 can go in without the witness being called, pursuant to Rule 94 bis (C).

20 So I would ask that this report and its translation - it's not quite as

21 imposing as it first appears because there is a translation attached to

22 it - but I'd ask this be given a number.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Even so, it is imposing.

24 MR. WHITING: I won't argue with that.

25 JUDGE PARKER: I wonder whether you expect that I will have

Page 5185

1 absorbed all of this by the morning. I tell you, it won't happen.

2 Exhibit?

3 THE REGISTRAR: Tab 1 will be Prosecution Exhibit 201.


5 MR. WHITING: Now, the second matter is with respect to three

6 witnesses who have testified in this trial. Subsequent to their

7 testimony the Prosecution has come into the possession of statements that

8 those witnesses made to Serb authorities in all three cases on various

9 dates in 1998. These are three victims and their statements after they

10 were released from their detention. These, of course, have been

11 disclosed to the Defence, and the -- in addition, the three witnesses

12 have been interviewed again by the Office of the Prosecution about those

13 statements and shown those statements and asked questions about them, and

14 those -- the results of those interviews, those ICTY statements, have

15 also, of course, been disclosed to the Defence.

16 I believe that in all three cases, the witnesses were asked about

17 these interviews during their testimony, though as I said, we did not at

18 the time of their testimony actually have the statements.

19 We've had some discussions with the Defence about how to handle

20 this, about whether it was necessary to recall these witnesses or what

21 the best procedure would be. We have come to an agreement, the

22 Prosecution and the Defence, that the best way to handle this would be

23 simply to admit into evidence the Serb statement along with the OTP

24 interview discussing the Serb statement and put those into evidence. And

25 so those are what is in the remainder of this binder, and I would like to

Page 5186

1 go through each one by witness and admit those into evidence.

2 So at tab 2 is the interview of witness Vojko Bakrac on the 8th

3 of July, 1998. And then the ICTY statement of the witness on the 22nd of

4 January, 2005. And if those -- I believe they could be given one number.

5 Both statements together would be given one number.

6 JUDGE PARKER: That's all tab 2?

7 MR. WHITING: Yes, Your Honour, it is tab 2.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. That will be received.

9 MR. WHITING: I see that it's not necessary to -- that this be

10 placed under seal except I do see that a redaction will be necessary on

11 the ICTY statement, but I'll -- I can deal with that later. Just a

12 place. But otherwise, it can be given a number.


14 THE REGISTRAR: Tab 2 of the two statements of 8 July, 1998 and

15 the 22nd January 2005 of this binder will be P202.

16 MR. WHITING: Tab 3 is a statement of Witness L-4, dated 1

17 October 1998, and the -- and then the subsequent ICTY statement of the

18 same witness dated 9 January 2005. And if that could be given a number.

19 And that -- I'm sorry, that exhibit has to be under seal.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. That will be received.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Tab 3 will be Prosecution Exhibit P203.

22 MR. WHITING: And that's under seal.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Under seal.

24 MR. WHITING: And then the final tab, tab 4, is a statement of

25 Witness L-6, dated 21 September 1998, and then the subsequent ICTY

Page 5187

1 interview of the 9 January 2005. I would ask that this be given a number

2 and also placed under seal.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, that will be received.

4 THE REGISTRAR: The tab 4 the two statements of the 21 September

5 1998 and of 9 January 2005 will be under seal Prosecution Exhibit number

6 P204.

7 MR. WHITING: Then finally, Your Honour --


9 MR. WHITING: -- we have a few what we call in my country

10 stipulations, but I understand in other countries may be called

11 admissions, but in any event, agreed facts between the Prosecution and

12 the Defence. They are various heights of various individuals and then a

13 distance.

14 The heights are with respect to the three accused and three

15 witnesses, and I will just read them out. The agreed height of Mr. Limaj

16 is 181 centimetres; of Mr. Musliu, 1 --

17 JUDGE PARKER: Just a minute, please.

18 MR. WHITING: Sorry.


20 MR. WHITING: Of Mr. Musliu it's 168 centimetres; of Mr. Bala,

21 176 centimetres.


23 MR. WHITING: Of Witness L-12, 179 centimetres.


25 MR. WHITING: Witness of Witness L-6, 175.5 centimetres.

Page 5188

1 Finally, of witness Ruzhdi Karpuzi, 191 centimetres.

2 JUDGE PARKER: What was that number again?

3 MR. WHITING: 191.


5 MR. WHITING: And then finally, there is agreement about the

6 distance between Lapusnik and Rahovec travelling from Lapusnik by road,

7 this is by road. And the road going from Lapusnik to the Arlat junction;

8 then travelling roughly south to Malisheve; and then continuing on that

9 same road to Rahovec. The agreed distance of that trip on the road is 30

10 kilometres.


12 MR. WHITING: And those are all the matters we have for today.

13 And as I said, the next witness will be available -- will start -- will

14 be ready to start tomorrow afternoon at 2.15.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Whiting. A lot has been happening

16 today and in recent times. Have you had time to assess how that might

17 affect your estimation of the length that remains of the Prosecution

18 case?

19 MR. WHITING: Yes, Your Honour. I estimate that we will finish,

20 assuming all goes well, that we will finish during the week of the 18th

21 of April.

22 JUDGE PARKER: During that week.

23 MR. WHITING: Yes, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Is there any other matter that counsel

25 need to raise, given time?

Page 5189

1 I did ask a question of others at the end of last week because I

2 had in my mind at the time when we made provision for the written

3 submissions that we have now received from all parties on the question of

4 the use that might be made of the statements that have been admitted, I

5 have in my mind that I might have indicated that there might be an

6 opportunity for oral submissions, brief as they might be, in view of the

7 written submissions. And it's not yet been clarified whether I really

8 did say that. But whether or not I did say it, the question is in my

9 mind whether it would be of thought to be of benefit by counsel given the

10 significance that attaches to the matter. The Chamber would be prepared

11 to hear time-controlled submissions, perhaps 15 to 20 minutes per counsel

12 for the Defence and perhaps about half an hour or a little longer for the

13 Prosecution, on that issue if there was general agreement that there

14 would be use in oral submissions in addition to the careful written

15 submissions that we have received.

16 You may want to think about that rather than be -- react on the

17 spot. So having put the thought out, we might hear what your collected

18 wisdom is tomorrow on the subject. Or are you eager to jump in, Mr.

19 Mansfield?

20 MR. MANSFIELD: Well, only something to perhaps be considered

21 overnight in that context. My initial reaction is - I haven't spoken to

22 anyone else - that we would -- well, certainly on behalf of Mr. Limaj, we

23 wouldn't necessarily want an opportunity to expand because everybody

24 certainly on our side I'm not saying on the other side that they didn't,

25 but we spent a great deal of time trying to ensure that all the arguments

Page 5190

1 were on paper. However, it occurs to me that having read them Your

2 Honours may have points that you want elaborated before, as it were,

3 determining the matter. And if there were issues that were either not

4 clear on the face of the paper or upon which you would like further

5 elaboration in argument then that would be something we would obviously

6 respond to.

7 JUDGE PARKER: I would want to make a couple of things clear. We

8 obviously have been taking time already to look at them and consider

9 them, and it's not because of any inadequacy or anxiety to receive

10 further elucidation, it's because somewhere deep in my conscience I think

11 I might have suggested that there would be an opportunity for oral

12 submissions and I didn't want to have cut you off from that by the

13 thoughtlessness.

14 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, maybe for the only time, I take the

15 same position as Mr. Mansfield, and that is I --

16 JUDGE PARKER: Not the only time. It's a condition that's to be

17 encouraged, Mr. Whiting.

18 MR. WHITING: Well, I'll try to learn from this occasion. But

19 no, from the point of view of the Prosecution, we are content to rest on

20 the written submissions. However, as Mr. Mansfield said, if there were

21 -- if it did occur to the Chamber, it doesn't seem to be the case, but if

22 it did -- if the Chamber did want clarification of any issues, of course

23 we'd be prepared to do that.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Well, I think I've indicated clearly enough the --

25 what caused me to raise it. I think you can expect that we will not,

Page 5191

1 then, expect oral submissions on the subject.

2 MR. GUY-SMITH: That would be fine.

3 MR. POWLES: Certainly.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Splendid. On that congenial note, we will adjourn

5 now for the day.

6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.57 p.m.,

7 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 5th day of

8 April, 2005, at 2.15 p.m.